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Laura Coates Live

Battle Between Trump and Courts Continues; Fed Chair Powell Gives Starkest Warning Yet on Economy; Trump Admin Proposes $40 Billion in Health Dept Cuts; Trump Administration to Retaliate Further Against Harvard; Elon Musk and DOGE Reveal New Mission. Aired 11p-12a ET

Aired April 16, 2025 - 23:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[23:00:00]

TIFFANY CROSS, AUTHOR: -- that might --

SHERMICHAEL SINGLETON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Yeah.

ABBY PHILLIP, CNN ANCHOR AND SENIOR POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Outside shoes as well.

Everyone, thank you so much. Thank you for watching "NewsNight." You can catch me any time on your favorite social media X, Instagram, and TikTok. In the meantime, "Laura Coates live" starts right now.

OMAR JIMENEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: The battle between President Trump and the courts hits new heights as a federal judge threatens contempt against the administration and the DOJ is signaling it's not going to take the off-ramp.

Plus, is America about to be hit with the double whammy of economic woes? The chairman of the Federal Reserve is warning it could happen. And the president's make America healthy agenda takes shape, and it involves a huge slash to the federal health budget. Tonight on "Laura Coates Live."

Welcome, everyone. I'm Omar Jimenez, in for Laura. A federal judge going toe-to-toe with the Trump administration is raising the stakes. And tonight, the Trump administration is punching back.

The judge at the center of the legal fight over President Trump's deportation plans, James Boasberg, is out with a new ruling tonight. He writes -- quote -- "probable cause exists to find the government in criminal contempt." And it's all related to his orders last month telling the Trump administration to turn back planes carrying migrants to El Salvador.

Now, Trump's team didn't comply or, at the very least, that didn't happen. Then the DOJ stonewalled Boasberg when he tried to find out why. He says -- quote -- "The court has given defendants ample opportunity to explain their actions. None of their responses has been satisfactory." Now, shortly after Boasberg's filing, the Trump administration moved to appeal. And all of this is happening as the president's team fights a case on another separate but related front involving a man on one of those flights to El Salvador, Kilmar Armando Abrego Garcia. The administration has admitted he was mistakenly deported. He's now locked up in El Salvador's CECOT prison. And Attorney General Pam Bondi says he's going to stay there for good.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PAM BONDI, UNITED STATES ATTORNEY GENERAL: He is not coming back to our country. President Bukele said he was not sending him back. That's the end of the story. If he wanted to send him back, we would give him a plane ride back. There was no situation ever where he was going to stay in this country. None. None. He's from El Salvador, he's in El Salvador, and that's where the president plans on keeping him.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

JIMENEZ: And the Department of Homeland Security also released documents on Abrego Garcia's background, which the White House press secretary laid out.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KAROLINE LEAVITT, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: When Kilmar Abrego Garcia was originally arrested, he was wearing a sweatshirt with rolls of money covering the ears, mouth, and eyes of presidents on various currency denominations. This is a known MS-13 gang symbol of hear no evil, speak no evil, see no evil. Abrego Garcia was also arrested with two other well-known members of the vicious MS-13 gang.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

JIMENEZ: Now, CNN has gone through the documents, and our chief legal correspondent, Paula Reid, says it doesn't prove he's a member of MS- 13.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PAULA REID, CNN CHIEF LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: It makes a reference to the fact that a police informant said Abrego Garcia was part of MS-13, but then he was denied bond citing this accusation. They appealed. But in an immigration bond hearing, the detainee has the burden of proof to show that they are not a flight risk nor a danger to the community, and he failed to meet that burden. But that is not a conclusive finding that he was a member of MS-13.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

JIMENEZ: And Abrego Garcia's lawyers also point out he has never been convicted of any crime, gang-related or otherwise. But regardless of all of that, his background and otherwise, they argue the issue is his due process rights were violated and that the Trump administration ignored the law.

The Trump administration outside the courtroom has largely focused on Abrego Garcia's background in this case, putting out that Abrego Garcia's wife filed a temporary protective order against him in 2021.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LEAVITT: The court ordered that the respondent committed the following acts of abuse: Once in May of 2021, assault in any degree. And on May 4th of 2021, he punched and scratched his wife, ripped off her shirt, and grabbed and bruised her. This is from a court in Maryland.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

JIMENEZ: Now, Abrego Garcia's wife isn't denying she filed the order, but said this in a statement to CNN: After surviving domestic violence in a previous relationship, I acted out of caution after a disagreement with Kilmar by seeking a civil protective order in case things escalated. Things did not escalate, and I decided not to follow through with the civil court process. That is not a justification for ICE's action.

[23:05:00]

But the Trump administration might be betting this will influence the court of public opinion because it has been part of their attack line on Democrats, for example, for defending Abrego Garcia in this case.

Democrats like Senator Chris Van Hollen, who traveled to El Salvador to try to meet him, he wasn't able to, but he did speak with El Salvador's vice president, and he asked him why Abrego Garcia is being held in prison without any corroborated evidence, as the judge in this case has characterized it, that he's a member of MS-13.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. CHRIS VAN HOLLEN (D-MD): His answer was that the Trump administration is paying El Salvador, the government of El Salvador, to keep him at CECOT.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

JIMENEZ: All right, a lot to talk about here. Joining me now, CNN analyst Zolan Kanno-Youngs. We talked about the pronunciation earlier. Maryland State's attorney of the county where Abrego Garcia lived, Aisha Braveboy, and former communications aide to Senator Lindsey Graham, T.W. Arrighi. Thank you all for being here.

Aisha, I want to start with you because, look, Judge Boasberg clearly frustrated about what he calls a willful disregard of his orders. But -- but who can he actually hold responsible for criminal content here? Is it -- is it lawyers or is it other members of -- of the Trump administration?

AISHA BRAVEBOY, STATE'S ATTORNEY OF PRINCE GEORGE'S COUNTY, MARYLAND: You know, it's anyone who is helping to subvert the rule of law. I mean, it really is about our Constitution. We are really at a constitutional crisis right now. We have three co-equal branches of government. Each designed to have a check on the other because we live in a democracy.

And so, we don't live in a dictatorship. When the courts have issued an order, we have to follow it. We may not always like it, but it is the law. And unless you want to appeal the decision of the court, you must follow it. And even if you -- you are appealing. And in this case, it went all the way up to the Supreme Court. Think about that.

The Supreme Court, the top and highest judicial power and authority in our land, said that this man should be returned to the status he was at prior to this administrative error, and this administration refuses to do it.

JIMENEZ: And, of course, the question from the Supreme Court was, what does facilitate mean versus effectuate?

And, you know, T.W., one of the things I think is -- is -- is interesting here is, look, you've got these proceedings happening inside court. You've also got this environment happening outside court as well. And Judge Boasberg even cited in particular a "New York Post" headline on the order to return the deportee to the U.S. The president of El Salvador responded, oopsie, too late, with a laughing emoji, and that was reposted by Secretary of State Marco Rubio.

Look, you work in comms or you have. I'm sure you're constantly weighing whether public communications could influence judicial proceedings. Do you see anything wrong with that repost? And I just wonder what you make of sort of the inside the courtroom, outside the courtroom relationship that we're seeing right now.

T.W. ARRIGHI, VICE PRESIDENT OF PUSH DIGITAL GROUP, FORMER COMMUNICATIONS AIDE TO LINDSEY GRAHAM AND MIKE POMPEO: Yeah. Well, I think Mr. Garcia's case is now fully in the hands of President Bukele because Mr. Garcia is an El Salvadorian citizen. That is his president.

Look, for Judge Boasberg, I can only simply say -- I am not a lawyer, so I won't hear and B.S. you next to an esteemed lawyer to my right. But I will tell you that -- that I do believe that President Trump is on at least some sound footing with the Alien Enemies Act.

And just as a history buff and a viewer of -- of how this thing played out in -- you know, reader of how this thing played out in 1798, I've been shocked at how misread the original law in the intent for the law that was written. So, I think we'll play out.

As for the tweet, of course, it's -- it's tongue in cheek. That's sort of what he has kind of become known for as a -- as a younger leader of the Central American nation. And, you know, the -- the fate of Mr. Garcia now hangs in his hands.

And the court, the Supreme Court, as you just mentioned, didn't really make a firm judgment that they had to go bring it back. It was a matter of facilitation with the country of origin of that individual.

JIMENEZ: And, you know, the judge, Judge Xinis, has talked about sort of the Trump administration's actions, sort of flying in the face of the plain meaning of facilitate, and that seems to be among the many tensions they've had in this particular case.

But -- but Zolan, look, the White House says they're going to appeal. What sort of happens next here on the Boasberg side of things?

ZOLAN KANNO-YOUNGS, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST, WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT FOR THE NEW YORK TIMES: Well, on the Boasberg side of things --

JIMENEZ: Yeah.

KANNO-YOUNGS: -- we -- we -- we have a blueprint that he has laid out here.

JIMENEZ: Yeah.

KANNO-YOUNGS: Right? I mean, he has basically threatened contempt proceedings unless the administration does what, essentially, he has been asking for the last month, which is to provide these migrants a chance to contest, a chance for a due process, a chance to contest this invocation of the Alien Enemies Act, and also just to present some basic facts of what happened when those flights left on March 15. Thus far, you've seen the administration stonewall those efforts.

[23:09:59]

But what I think is interesting is he didn't just threaten contempt proceedings, he also said that if they don't comply with that, then he would -- as an option, he could refer this to the Justice Department. And then, say, the administration directs the Justice Department to drop that, well, then he actually would look at this carve out that would basically allow him to appoint his own prosecutor as well.

So, there is a whole blueprint of actions now that Boasberg is saying that he could take here, which I think shows just how far we've gone in terms of the executive branch and the judicial branch really clashing against each other on this case.

On the subject of Bukele and as it pertains to Mr. Abrego Garcia, one thing that's interesting just in terms of the facilitating word in the Supreme Court order, well, the administration in that Oval Office meeting the other day made it clear they think that this is on Bukele.

Today, when Senator Van Hollen went to El Salvador, he says he spoke with a government official who said, well, we're keeping him because the U.S. is paying El Salvador $6 million to take these migrants in as well.

So, you -- you have two sides here pointing at each other. And while the Supreme Court may have said facilitate, they also did point out that they feel this person should be returned.

JIMENEZ: Yeah.

KANNO-YOUNGS: And it's worth just to take a step back and remind folks, 2019, the -- after he went through his immigration proceedings, he was given a withholding of removal status, which does say that that judge felt that deporting him back to El Salvador specifically, that he could face torture or violence. That's why they shielded him from deportation at that time. That's why you had the administration saying that it was an error to deport him.

ARRIGHI: I think there's a big caveat there because she cited harm from gangs and rival gangs, thus implying he had affiliations with gangs here, which is an underlying point of this entire thing -- of this entire case.

So, you know, we can say, oh, he wasn't a part of MS-13 even though courts ruled he was, and then --

KANNO-YOUNGS: An informant --

BRAVEBOY: I think that's not --

(CROSSTALK)

The courts have never ruled that Mr. Garcia was a part of MS-13. So, I think that's one of the issues that has been out there. People have been just using terms, like, this is a gang member in a way to jade people against Mr. Garcia. And it's not just Mr. Garcia, it's any brown person that gets deported. And that's the biggest issue because not everyone who comes here is a member of a gang.

JIMENEZ: And Aisha, I actually just want to ask you on this point because, look, you are the state's attorney in the county where Abrego Garcia lived prior to this. And -- and Attorney General Pam Bondi released the 2019 arrest record from P.G. County where it cited a confidential source saying Abrego Garcia was a gang member and describes his Chicago Bulls hat and a hoodie with symbols they say indicate gang culture.

And -- and just to know, this is from the 2019 when he was given the removal order. It doesn't necessarily show current affiliation. But bottom line -- look, your -- your office works with law enforcement all the time to build cases.

BRAVEBOY: Absolutely.

JIMENEZ: When it comes to a police informant, I mean, how do you determine the credibility of a -- of a single informant like this?

BRAVEBOY: Absolutely. Well, look, this was information that was entered in to a system called GangNet, which has since been disbanded.

JIMENEZ: Okay.

BRAVEBOY: That information was entered in by an officer who interviewed Mr. Garcia at the time that he was arrested. But he was not charged with a crime. He was handed over to ICE because he was not in the country legally, and then he went through an ICE proceeding.

After that proceeding, he remained in the country and he had a status, the withholding from removal status. He then worked in this country. He had been here and has never been charged with any crime in Prince George's County or anywhere else in this country as we know it. Now, I work with law enforcement all the time, and I have been very hard on prosecuting gangs. I've prosecuted many gang leaders and offenders in our community. We have gotten really great results. But he is not someone who has ever been a target of an investigation or a crime that we prosecuted in our county.

So, whether he had any affiliations or relationships or new people who were in gangs, his actions since he has been here with respect to, you know, criminal laws, criminal wrongdoings, it's just not here except the fact that he was not here legally. Other than his status as someone who's undocumented, there are no other crimes for which he was charged.

JIMENEZ: So, you're saying for a -- for a sort of pinning of a label of a gang member, you would have wanted to see a further step or something else.

BRAVEBOY: Well, just like in any case, we have to present evidence, we have to present facts. We can't just draw conclusions. Right? And so, I think that's why this case is very interesting.

[23:15:00]

Whether he's a gang member or not, we don't know. And the -- the fact is no one has ever --quote, unquote -- "proven that in the court of law." There was an informant who provided information that was entered into a GangNet system, okay, that, again, has now been disbanded because there were issues with -- with that system.

And so, this individual, you know, again, has never been charged with a crime in Prince George's County, so he was never on our radar for committing an offense in our -- in our jurisdiction or in the state.

JIMENEZ: I got to leave it there. You have a quick word?

ARRIGHI: Yeah. I -- I would I would simply say that he was given a deportation order originally, so the -- the evidence must have held up to some degree. And secondly, that informant knew the two people he was arrested with, cited also his rank and his nickname in the gang, and that would clearly carried weight, and then led to the reprisal.

BRAVEBOY: But again, he was allowed to remain in this country under the prior Trump administration. This is in 2019. So, if he were a vicious gang leader, then he should have been deported at that time.

ARRIGHI: The Alien Enemies Act does cover that.

JIMENEZ: And that, of course, is the question that is playing out in two separate cases, separate but related. And I have a feeling, whether it goes to a special prosecutor level on the Judge Boasberg spot or wherever it goes in the other case, I'll have you back. More to talk about.

ARRIGHI: Lovely.

JIMENEZ: All right. Appreciate it. BRAVEBOY: Thank you. Thank you.

KANNO-YOUNGS: Thank you.

JIMENEZ: All right. Coming up, everyone, a stock sell-off, the dollar falling, and a huge warning from the chair of the Federal Reserve.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JEROME POWELL, CHAIR, UNITED STATES FEDERAL RESERVE: As that great Chicagoan Ferris Bueller once noted, life moves pretty fast.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

JIMENEZ: And dollars moving pretty fast, as well. Is this the economy Trump voters expected? Governor John Kasich tells us after this. Plus, the billions and cuts the Trump administration is planning for the country's health services, that is all ahead. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[23:20:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JIMENEZ: He is normally one of the most reserved people in Washington. But Federal Reserve Chair Jerome Powell had a pretty stark warning about Trump's trade wars.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

POWELL: Unemployment is likely to go up as the economy slows in all likelihood, and inflation is likely to go up as tariffs find their way. And some part of those tariffs come to the -- come to be paid by the -- by the -- by the public.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

JIMENEZ: And as you might imagine, when the Fed chair speaks, the markets listen. And investors did not seem to like what they heard today. Stocks tumbled after Powell said the U.S. economy could face a challenging trifecta of higher costs, higher unemployment, and slower growth all because of Trump's tariffs.

Now, I want to bring in former Republican governor of Ohio, John Kasich. He chaired the House Budget Committee while in Congress and also worked as an investment banker. He's also the author of the new book, "Heaven Help Us: How Faith Communities Inspire Hope, Strengthen Neighborhoods, and Build the Future."

Depending on who you are, a lot of people saying, heaven help us, tonight. But governor, you called Trump's approach to tariffs total chaos. Fed Chair Powell is also warning they could cause higher inflation, higher unemployment, slower growth, all that at the same time. Where do you see Republicans place in this to -- to speak out or even push back?

JOHN KASICH, FORMER OHIO GOVERNOR: Well, clearly, in the -- in the Congress, except for seven senators that said that they thought they should see some authority back, you know, they're like missing in action.

You know, Omar, we're supposed to have three branches of government: the executive, the judicial, and the legislative. And the fact of the matter is the legislative branch has been muzzled for many years, not just now, but it's -- it has been terrible. So, we're out of balance here. Instead of having those three balanced against one another, the legislative branch has gone away and the Republicans have said nothing.

You know, I was in the Congress for a significant period of time. And as a Republican, we never supported all these tariffs. We're basically free traders. Fair traders, but free traders. We didn't believe that tariffs were good.

And now, what do we see happening? We see the bond market, we see high yields, we see weakness in the bond market. We're beginning to see maybe a little reignited inflation, which you hear the chairman of the Fed talked about today. We see -- we see the -- the value of the dollar plummet, which some people think that is a good thing. I don't think it's a good thing. So, we've seen a weakened dollar, we've seen a weakened bond market, we see the prospect of higher prices, more inflation.

I mean, this is not a policy that has ever worked. And I -- I just, frankly, don't understand why, after 80 years of peace and prosperity, we've decided that, you know, the formula doesn't work anymore. It just doesn't make sense to me.

JIMENEZ: And, you know, one of the big tests that people are looking for sort of in watching this performance is, how will this be tested in the midterms? Obviously, some time away, but will come up pretty quickly.

And our Elle Reeve, CNN's Elle Reeve, spoke to some people in Eastern South Dakota, for example, where Trump won 70% of the vote. There -- there is a lot of concern. But some do seem willing to give Trump time. Just take a quick listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNKNOWN: I wanted Trump.

ELLE REEVE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: You wanted Trump?

UNKNOWN: Yep. There was no way in hell I wanted her out there. But now, I don't know --

(LAUGHTER)

-- what would have been better. ROD OLERUD, VOTER, SOUTH DAKOTA: I just think we need to let the president do what he's doing. We need to just see what's going to happen here and give him a little latitude so that, you know, if it doesn't work, then we're going to have to try something different.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

JIMENEZ: And, you know, the -- the president has gotten -- he says that there are negotiations with at least 15 --

(CROSSTALK)

KASICH: -- Omar.

JIMENEZ: Say again.

KASICH: Omar, I listened to the farmer.

[23:25:00]

JIMENEZ: Yeah.

KASICH: I hope he's not going to come to Washington and say, oh, I need a subsidy now because the tariffs have really hurt me.

JIMENEZ: Well, I guess that's the question. How -- how much leeway will Trump supporters give him and for how long?

KASICH: Well, look, the country wanted things shaken. Okay? And they saw the pendulum do move too far to the left. And now, the pendulum is coming back. The question is, how far will it go to the right? Now, I don't consider tariffs to be to the right, but it's sort of the conservatives moving it away from where the Democrats had it.

And so, they're willing to give him a chance. You're beginning to see some of his numbers slip. It has not been dramatic. But, in fact, his -- his numbers are not as good as they were among Republicans, but Republicans are still willing to give him a chance. And I think that's why you're not seeing much from the members of the Republican Party in either the House or the Senate.

And you saw what happened to Chuck Grassley. Chuck Grassley goes out there, and he gets pummeled at the age of, what, 92. And -- and, frankly, I think he was shocked. I don't know why he was shocked. Did he not know the people, at least in -- in his -- in his state, were concerned even if it was the base of the Democrats coming out and raising cane with him But, you know, there's just a lot of turmoil and chaos.

And -- and whenever the country is divided, we don't -- we don't do as well as when the country is united. And -- and this is a pattern, Omar, in some respects when you look at our foreign policy as well. America is sort of retreating, trying to go it alone.

And I understand the need for renegotiation on some of these trade agreements. I also understand that the fact that people want some manufacturing to come back.

But Omar, with the manufacturing, not going to come a lot of jobs because now we use technology. And even in -- in steel making, if you take a look at the numbers that are involved, the purse -- the individual themselves can produce a lot more. So, we may get some more manufacturing, but you're not going to see this tremendous growth in jobs because it's now in the -- in the more the technical space.

JIMENEZ: And, you know, we've heard from some auto industry leaders that even if manufacturing jobs do come up back, it's going to take some time. It's not going to happen overnight.

Governor, I want to talk about your new book, "Heaven Help Us," because it's an interesting title. Could be positive or worrying, but bottom line, you highlight real life stories of a -- of a cross section of faiths. Sort of at the crux of each story is radical generosity. Can you -- can you just tell us about it and how it -- how you believe it sort of applies to this moment in American politics?

KASICH: Yeah. Well, you know, Omar, a lot of people don't know what to do. And what I say is there's things you can do right where you live.

And, you know, using the institutions of the church, the synagogue or the mosque, there are many things, including, you know, fighting hunger, dealing with human trafficking, the homeless, what happens with the autistic as they age, these are many things that if you go into your institution, if you have a purpose, if you have a mission, you can realize your purpose, you can get other people to help you and get some of the resources from those institutions to help build a stronger community.

And when we think about that, think of it this way: If the secretary of state and your trash man both went on vacation, who would you miss most? Because most politics occurs at a local level and all change comes from the bottom up. This is not a book about politics, but it's a playbook how -- for how people can find purpose and make a difference in their lives and in the lives of their community through the institutions of faith.

JIMENEZ: And again, with the title that depending on who you are, maybe the words you have said many times or not, "Heaven Help Us," by Governor John Kasich. Thank you again. We appreciate you being here.

KASICH: Thank you so much, Omar. Good luck.

JIMENEZ: Thank you. CNN obtaining internal documents from within the Trump administration laying out plans for billions of dollars in cuts at the Department of Health and Human Services. That comes as a top researcher quits, citing censorship under RFK, Jr. So, what's going on? You've got a house call with Dr. Reiner coming up next. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[23:30:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROBERT F. KENNEDY, JR., HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES SECRETARY: A public health crisis now in our country like nothing that we've ever seen before.

Our whole -- this whole generation of kids is damaged by chronic disease.

We are now the sickest country in the world.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

JIMENEZ: Now we've heard these talking points from Health and Human Services Secretary RFK, Jr. time and time again. But for someone who says battling chronic disease in America is his top priority, he is about to oversee a huge potential slash to the budget of the agency he runs.

Tonight, CNN obtaining internal documents revealing the White House's budget proposal for HHS. That proposal would slash funding for the agency by nearly a third, from about $120 billion to just $80 billion. And the things this proposal seeks to eliminate are pretty staggering.

According to the memo, the CDC could lose about 40% of its funding, eliminating chronic disease prevention programs and domestic HIV AIDS prevention. The National Institutes of Health would go from 27 research centers to eight. And a new Administration for Healthy America would consolidate other agencies and fund new research for Make America Healthy Again initiatives like finding the cause of autism.

Joining me now to break it all down, CNN medical analyst and professor of medicine and surgery at George Washington University, Dr. Jonathan Reiner. Really appreciate you being here.

Look, all of what I mentioned is part of a proposal, I guess, at this point. So, always subject to change. But what could some of the consequences of these spending cuts be on a practical level?

[23:35:00]

JONATHAN REINER, CNN MEDICAL ANALYST, PROFESSOR OF MEDICINE AND SURGERY AT GEORGE WASHINGTON UNIVERSITY: Well, first of all, this is potentially just a tragic, you know, evisceration of the world's greatest medical research institute.

And what makes it even more tragic is that it's a potentially self- inflicted wound. You can't cut that much money, almost 40%, out of NIH, taking the NIH budget from $47 billion to $27 billion without basically just shelving dozens and dozens of programs. And when you do that, you lose these coveted researchers who will move to industry. They'll move to universities. Some will move out of out of the country. NIH is one of the most coveted jobs in -- in medical research in the world, and we are going to gut it. And what that's going to mean practically is innovation is going to drop, discoveries are going to drop. Hope for people with neglected diseases or diseases right now that don't have effective treatments will -- will be lost. This is just a completely unnecessary, tragic -- tragic potential move on the part of this administration.

And the sad thing is that, you know, although these numbers sound big, you know, cutting $40 billion from NIH, in the total HHS budget, that's like a drop in the ocean. And they're cutting these -- these pivotal programs because the big dollars, almost $1.7 trillion in HHS, is untouchable in Medicare and Medicaid.

JIMENEZ: Hmmm. You know, as part of this, too, you know, we're also learning grants for rural hospitals and state offices of rural health would be eliminated under this proposal. Obviously, these are communities -- in some cases, these are communities that voted overwhelmingly for Trump. But also, they don't have the same access to care as big cities.

When you look at the impact on rural communities especially, what differences do you see there as opposed to what someone might feel in a New York City or Los Angeles?

REINER: Right. So, you know, in D.C. where I live or New York City where I'm -- where I'm from, there are hospitals everywhere. There are dozens and dozens of hospitals. In rural communities, over the last couple of decades, we've seen basically a hollowing out of the health care infrastructure, and you need to drive a long way to find a hospital or a clinic in some parts of the United States.

And these are parts of country that have a lot of poor people who depend on access to these kinds of places that are heavily dependent on federal funds. And if you gut those funds, those hospitals and clinics will close, and people will go without care.

JIMENEZ: And that becomes the question because there are, in some communities where people are driving 30 minutes, an hour, sometimes even more for specific types of --

REINER: Right.

JIMENEZ: -- of care just to get to a hospital that can assist. I -- I also want to ask you about -- the -- the CDC published a study yesterday showing the autism diagnosis rate for children rose to 1 in 31 in 2022. That's up from 1 in 36 in 2020.

Now, the study points to better access to screening and identification services as one of the reasons for this increase. But today, Health Secretary RFK, Jr. is really contradicting that finding, coming up with his own explanation. Just take a listen to what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KENNEDY: This is a preventable disease. We know it's an environmental exposure. These are kids who many of them were fully functional and regressed because of some environmental exposure into autism when they're two years old. And these are kids who will never pay taxes. They'll never hold a job. They'll never play baseball. They'll never write a poem. They'll never go out on a date. Many of them will never use a toilet unassisted.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

JIMENEZ: Now, I just have to say, autism is a spectrum. And while there are some cases that -- that people are more physically impaired than others, it's not a complete broad brush of the stroke. I just want to say that before I ask you, though. What is your reaction to sort of RFK Jr's posturing, coming out of the CDC study here?

REINER: Well, I have to say, there has never been a less qualified person to run a major department in the United States ever. He is just totally unsuited -- unsuited for that job.

And I would think that somebody who purports to care so much about autism and has spent so many years of his life trying to figure out why -- why autism exists, that he would know more about the disease.

[23:39:50]

And when he made that statement about never pay taxes, never hold a job, never play baseball, that offended millions of people in this country whose kids who live with autism spectrum disorders, you said a spectrum, some of these kids, many of these kids and now young people, live very productive lives, do pay taxes, you know, do play baseball, do get married.

And -- and his apparent, you know, inability to understand the reality of this disease goes hand in hand with his inability to understand that vaccines do not cause autism. That is -- that is proven. Vaccines do not cause autism.

But he is going to persevere until he presents to the United States public, you know, data that validates his completely unproven, disproven notion about the origins of autism.

The true origins are -- this is a complex problem, a lot of genetic components, perhaps some environmental triggers, but the seeds of autism are -- are -- are found in utero in -- in the months before birth.

JIMENEZ: Dr. Reiner, really appreciate the time and perspective. Thanks for being here.

REINER: My pleasure, Omar.

JIMENEZ: Meanwhile, another hit for Harvard. The Trump administration using yet another tool of the government to retaliate against the university. We're going to tell you what their plans are next. And I'm going to speak to a professor calling this -- quote -- "the symptom of a profound disease dictatorship." Stay tuned.

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JIMENEZ: Welcome back. The Trump administration's demands against Harvard keep coming. Tonight, the Homeland Security Department is issuing a new ultimatum against the university, reveal the activities of foreign student visa holders in two weeks or -- quote -- "lose the privilege of enrolling foreign students."

And it comes after sources told CNN the IRS is making plans to revoke Harvard's tax-exempt status. Universities are tax-exempt because they're nonprofit groups, but the idea is that their benefit to society exempts them from paying taxes.

The Trump administration, though, argues Harvard has lost that status because the pro-Palestinian protests on campus after October 7th were antisemitic, endangering Jewish students and violating federal rules to prevent discrimination.

Now, the education secretary says other universities may lose their tax- exempt status, too.

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LINDA MCMAHON, UNITED STATES SECRETARY OF EDUCATION: I've only heard the reference right now to Harvard. But I think if IRS looks at it, they might look at it across other universities. But that's a guess on my part.

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JIMENEZ: So far, no comment from Harvard University on its tax-exempt status. But Harvard has already said it would not surrender its independence.

Joining me now is Bruce Ackerman, professor of law and political science at Yale Law School. Really appreciate you being here. Professor, I just want to start with, you know, this feels like another escalation in sort of Trump's battle with Harvard, America's oldest university. But it's also one of many attacks against institutions. I mean, you're a political science professor at one of these Ivy League universities. What do you make of it?

BRUCE ACKERMAN, PROFESSOR OF LAW AND POLITICAL SCIENCE, YALE LAW SCHOOL: Well, this is only a part of an unprecedented assault, genuinely unprecedented in 200 and almost 50 years of American constitutional development on the system of checks and balances, which is the fundamental system for preventing dictatorship. And for 250 years, this system, however rough and ready it was in many occasions, has worked.

But in this case, the assault on the universities is only a part of this general assault. But so far, as the universities are concerned, for reasons that are quite obscure, if you look at the list of universities who in one way or another the Trump administration has threatened, Yale isn't on it. Harvard is but Yale isn't.

However, a hundred senior professors at Yale, one of them me, have already signed a letter saying that Yale should not stand on the sidelines and let this disaster occur. Instead, we should, the corporation, the managing, the president of the university, should stand up and be counted because this is a turning point in the entire system of university education that has done so much for this country.

JIMENEZ: Yeah. And for those curious, the IRS has revoked the tax- exempt status of a university before, but it was Bob Jones University in 1976. And that was over banning interracial relationships among students, so maybe not unprecedented in the technical nature of it.

But obviously, when you -- when you look at -- at this situation, for example, you laid out your concerns very clearly, this is a Trump administration-based fight right now.

But I wonder, what do you see as the long-term consequences and stakes of this particular fight? It sounds like Yale is prepared to wage alongside Harvard if it comes to that point.

ACKERMAN: Well, I cannot speak for the president of the university. We do not speak for them.

[23:49:52]

The -- but the important thing to keep in mind is that this is only one element of this general attack on independent institutions that check and balance, and constrain presidential tyranny.

JIMENEZ: As you've laid out, you know, there is a lot of concern about the future and whether these institutions may be irreparably damaged. But what do you hope comes out of this moment?

ACKERMAN: Well, you see, if this down -- the masses of people are -- in swing states are going to vote against this terrible effort at monopolizing all power in the presidency, then Trump is going to face a democratic Congress that will, and I will certainly participate in this, impeach him. The House, with a strong democratic majority, will impeach him for high crimes and misdemeanors. This is a much more striking example of abuse of presidential power than Richard Nixon's Watergate.

JIMENEZ: Really appreciate you being on tonight, and thank you for taking the time, Professor Ackerman.

ACKERMAN: Righto.

JIMENEZ: Coming up, Elon Musk and DOGE have a new job. Here's a hint as to what they're working on.

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JIMENEZ: All right, the DOGE bros are at it again. According to "The New York Times," Elon Musk and his team are helping to design a system to sell Trump's gold card visas, you know, that gold card Trump promised for wealthy foreigners where they pay $5 million to obtain permanent residence in the United States.

And it's a bit of a shift from the DOGE mission to cut government waste. And while gold cards as a concept might be new, purpose-wise, they'd essentially replace EB-5 visas that were for individuals investing in this country and helping to create jobs for Americans. Those visas, by the way, generated $4 billion last year alone.

Now, Trump's secretary of commerce, Howard Lutnick, says these gold cards could be ready in a matter of weeks.

Joining us now is tech reporter for "The New York Times," Ryan Mac, who has been doing the reporting we just mentioned. Ryan, thanks for being here. Look, Elon Musk, DOGE, they've been tasked with building the system for these gold cards. What details do we have on -- on what this will actually look like?

RYAN MAC, TECH REPORTER, THE NEW YORK TIMES: So, it's an expedited visa process. You know, typically, when you apply for a visa in this country, it takes months, if not more than a year. What you're going to have now is people abroad paying $5 million to get a kind of white- gloved service, you know, where they get shepherded through this process.

We're hearing it could take, you know, less than a month or maybe even two weeks to get approved for this visa process simply by paying this massive amount of money, which, you know, most people can't afford. But, yeah, it's a revenue-generating project, and they're hoping that it'll help to pay off the -- the federal debt.

JIMENEZ: And, you know, this is -- it's a little bit of a shift from what from what DOGE is doing or what is advertised to be doing. Essentially, is this seen as more of a of a next step of the agency, sort of an endorsement of it, or is it more of, okay, well, let's kind of do something new, maybe we haven't gotten some of the big wins that -- that were promised on -- on the original mission?

I mean, where -- where is sort of the purpose, I guess, of this -- of this team being involved in this, I should say?

MAC: Yeah, it's certainly interesting because, of course, DOGE was set out to -- quote, unquote -- "cut this," you know, inefficiencies in government to lay off people, to remove certain services. And this is a completely new mandate to create something that doesn't exist in order to generate revenue. You know, Commerce Secretary Howard Lutnick has talked about generating billions, if not a trillion dollars in revenue, and this is one of the programs that they're -- they're focusing on here.

You know, the people that are involved -- are involved as well are some of the kind of well-known DOGE members that have been reported on in the past.

You have someone like Marko Elez, who was -- who resigned in light of his racist post getting surfaced by "The Wall Street Journal." You have someone like Edward Coristine, who is a teenage hacker, who was reported to be involved in other parts of the government as well, who was involved in this project.

So, you know, it's -- it's -- it's somewhat of a shift in focus for DOGE and we could continue to see, you know, more of these projects pop up.

JIMENEZ: And, you know, this push -- this visa push or immigration push for skilled workers or rich workers, whatever you want to call them -- I'll start with skilled workers. It's interesting because it has been in recent months sort of this split in the Trump world between people like Elon Musk and Steve Bannon, for example, where Elon was more in favor of H-1B visas, which helps bring in skilled workers, Steve Bannon was against it.

Do we have any indication as to whether Musk's investment in this site is tied to that sort of general thesis of skilled or, in this case, rich applicants are welcome?

MAC: It -- it appears to be the case, you know. Elon Musk is someone who has talked about using immigrants to build up his companies. He has talked about, you know, again, high-skilled immigrants. He's in favor of H-1B, as you said. This seems to be another tactic to generate revenue again for the U.S. and bring in, you know, the -- quote, unquote -- "good immigrants" from other countries.

[00:00:04]

People willing to pay massive sums of money just to have residency here. He hadn't spoken publicly about the gold card, but it is something that Trump himself has -- has favored heavily. You know, he has gone on Air Force One and showed off the card to reporters, and it's really a pet project of his.

JIMENEZ: Yeah. Ryan Mac, thanks for being here. Thanks for doing the reporting.

MAC: Thank you.

JIMENEZ: All right. And thank you all for watching. Hope you learned something. "Anderson Cooper 360" is up next.