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Laura Coates Live

Police: 2 Killed, 5 Injured In Florida State University Shooting; Trump: FSU Mass Shooting A "Shame", Vows To Protect Gun Rights; Maryland Senator Meets With Abrego Garcia In El Salvador; Trump's Border Czar Defends WH Over Abrego Garcia Showdown; Appeals Court: Man Deported Without "Semblance Of Due Process"; Trump: Fed Chair Powell Will Resign "If I Ask Him To"; Luigi Mangione Indicted On Federal Charges In CEO's Killing. Aired 11p-12a ET

Aired April 17, 2025 - 23:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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Laura Coates Live starts right now.

[23:00:36]

OMAR JIMENEZ, CNN ANCHOR: Welcome, everyone. I'm Omar Jimenez in for Laura Coates.

Our breaking news tonight, the community at Florida State University is trying to grapple with the mass shooting that unfolded on campus as we learn more about the suspected gunman and his past. Two people were killed. Neither were students, but five others were wounded.

This all happened just before noon near the Student Union, and we have video from the scene as the shooting was unfolding. But I want to warn you, it might be difficult to watch. The blurred part of the video you're going to see is a victim on the ground.

(BEGIN VIDEOCLIP)

(GUNSHOTS) (END VIDEOCLIP)

JIMENEZ: You see the gunman literally turning and firing at students. One student was leaving the Student Union when she witnessed the gunman near his car. This is what she saw.

(BEGIN VIDEOCLIP)

MCKENZIE HEETER, FSU STUDENT WHO WITNESSED SHOOTING: I look back and I see him waving around a larger gun, which I first thought was a rifle, but I guess it was a shotgun. And he let off a shot kind of in our direction as we were walking away from the Union.

He turned, probably because he missed at longer distance, and turned to his car and grabbed the handgun out, the pistol, and he turned towards the Union. And that's when I saw him shoot a woman in purple scrubs in the back, in her back. And I just started running. I ran a mile all the way to my apartment.

(END VIDEOCLIP)

JIMENEZ: And she says she realized there was no target, and that he was shooting anybody he could see. Now students inside classrooms scrambled to evacuate. Some walked by police officers holding their weapons as they left, as you can see here on this video. And this is what students heard when they first realized something was wrong.

(BEGIN VIDEOCLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A dangerous or life threatening situation exists on campus. Take shelter now in a secure location.

(END VIDEOCLIP)

JIMENEZ: That's what the students did shortly after. Police eventually shot the suspect, who is still in the hospital tonight. Authorities have identified him as 20-year-old Phoenix Ikner. He's a student of the school, and police say he's the son of a sheriff's deputy who works as a local school resource officer, and he used her gun to carry out the shooting.

(BEGIN VIDEOCLIP)

SHERIFF WALT MCNEIL, LEON COUNTY: Unfortunately, her son had access to one of her weapons. And that was one of the weapons that was found at the scene. He has been steep in the Leon County Sheriff's Office family, engaged in a number of training programs that we have. So it's not a surprise to us that he had access to weapons.

(END VIDEOCLIP)

JIMENEZ: It was one of the weapons found at the scene. I want to begin with CNN Chief Law Enforcement Analyst John Miller. John, thanks for being here.

Look, as we understand so far, the suspect isn't cooperating with law enforcement. But what else do we know about him?

JOHN MILLER, CNN CHIEF LAW ENFORCEMENT AND INTELLIGENCE ANALYST: Well, we know he was a student at FSU Tallahassee that he lives locally. He drove his orange, very conspicuous Hummer from the house to the school. We know he's a political science major.

Interestingly, he was quoted in the student newspaper back in January when he encountered anti-Trump demonstrators just after the election, saying, these people are usually pretty entertaining, but not for good reasons. It's a little late. He's already going to be inaugurated on January 20th.

There's nothing you can do short of revolt, which is not a good idea. So more of a sardonic quote. His social media is locked down. His Instagram is private, but under his picture there's a quote about, this is my war club. It's taken from the Bible about smiting enemies. So we don't have a clear picture of what was going on behind the scenes in his life.

JIMENEZ: But obviously all things law enforcement will be looking into as part of this investigation. And you know, John, look, two people -- at least two people killed so far that we know of, five injured. Do we know any more about the victims tonight?

MILLER: A little, but not much. And I think the FSU community has been very protective of the victims at this stage.

[23:05:06]

So the two people who were killed are said to be both males, not students at the college. Don't know what their role was on the grounds when this happened, but it tells us something about the shooting, which is, according to witnesses, it seemed to be completely random in terms of who he pointed at and who he fired at. That's something they'll be looking at.

The doctors at the hospital told us tonight that they went through surgeries with the other gunshot victims, that they were uncomplicated surgeries. They went off successfully, that the victims were not in life-threatening positions anymore, as far as they know, and were in good spirits.

JIMENEZ: And, you know, John, look, obviously a lot happens in the initial stages of this. You have care for the victims. You have law enforcement beginning investigations as well. I mean, where does law enforcement start in determining a possible motive here, especially if the suspected gunman isn't necessarily cooperating?

MILLER: Well, they'll start with his mom, who probably knows him best and who apparently he was living with, if not right now, at least until recently. The second stage will be the search warrant, where they'll get into computers, phones.

Then the subpoenas that went out today and preservation orders to Instagram and other social media, basically to say freeze those accounts so no one can delete anything, and let's go back through them. What they're going to be looking for clues of was, is there a motive?

But Omar, you know this as well as I do, because you have covered as many of these as I have, which is when we learn what the motive is, and we often do, it's usually not something that we nod our heads and say, oh well, that makes sense.

JIMENEZ: Yes.

MILLER: Usually it's more about something going on in the individual's head, which we find at the cost of these lives very unsatisfying.

JIMENEZ: And of course there will be questions over if there were previous signs that were missed. The scope --

MILLER: And there almost always are --

JIMENEZ: Yes.

MILLER: -- as you also know.

JIMENEZ: Yes. The scope of this investigation will no doubt widen.

John Miller, really appreciate it.

MILLER: Thanks, Omar.

JIMENEZ: More than 42,000 students attend FSU. So many of them witnesses to this violence, either hearing it or even some seeing it. I want to bring in two students who were on campus when it happened. Seniors Will Schatz and Sam Swartz.

Sam, I want to start with you, because as I understand, you were in the basement of the Student Union where the shooting happened. What did you see? What did you hear?

SAM SWARTZ, FSU STUDENT WHO WITNESSED SHOOTING: So just like any other Thursday, me and my class project group, we meet in the Union just to collaborate on our project. And we got there about 11:30, and I think it was right before noon, we heard some running, we heard some -- the shots as you saw in the video before, and we were all just kind of stunned.

We didn't really know what to do, but we all decided to run into this back maintenance hallway where some people went up a service elevator, some went up some stairs. But I tried to remain calm with my group, and I was like, hey, let's kind of bunker down, let's try and hide it out.

We found some trash cans and some plywood, and we kind of made a little fortress out of it. So we hid behind that, because I remember learning back in high school, the best thing to do is to try and deter the shooter, deter anything that can try and get you in harm's way.

And their goal is always just to try and get as many people as possible, so you can try and delay that, you're going to be pretty good. JIMENEZ: Yes, try to lock doors, try to put anything in the way, as you mentioned, just to slow a potential threat down. I mean, that clearly, that unfortunate training kind of went into your mind almost immediately, it sounds like.

SWARTZ: Yes. I don't really know why. I don't normally think about school shootings or anything, but it just, I don't know, the fight-or- flight instinct kicked in. I was like, I'm going to do something about this. I'm not just going to hide and hope that for the best. I'm going to make the most of the situation.

And from what I've heard, I don't think we ever in too much of harm's way, but I'm happy with how we acted and that we did the best we could.

JIMENEZ: No, I'm of course glad you weren't in harm's way either. But, you know, as you guys are sort of bunkering down and trying to make sure you guys are OK, I'm sure when you finally got out and maybe started to realize what actually had happened, how did you feel, just sort of, what did you learn sort of as you came out of that bunkering sort of situation?

SWARTZ: It was all pretty much a blur, but I remember there's about five officers, pretty heavily armed, they were talking stern, but calm and firm. They were saying, hey, this is FSU police, put your hands up.

We -- they all patted us down and then we basically walked single file out of the Union where we met in this big area where we kind of just got questioned. We're saying, hey, if you can give us some information, let's talk.

And I saw the gunman be -- he was already arrested, but he was in handcuffs on the ground and I saw a lady being tended to medically.

[23:10:02]

JIMENEZ: Sam, really appreciate you sharing that. I want to bring in FSU Senior Will Schatz as well who's with us. Because Will, you were in the library when the shooting started. When did you notice that something was actually wrong here?

WILL SCHATZ, FSU STUDENT WHO WITNESSED SHOOTING: Yes. So much like Sam, we were actually working on a group project as well. And the first giveaway to me is -- I mean, I heard commotion before, but it didn't really register until I saw a bunch of people just running for the exit.

And while some stayed behind to like, seek shelter, I ran outside the building as well, ran down a few blocks until I saw a ton of first responders just getting there almost immediately, it seemed like. And once I was around them, they actually didn't question me. I guess that wasn't like their target, like location or something, but I was like, safe with them.

And at that point, when I was outside of the library, I heard about seven to eight gunshots. And, yes.

JIMENEZ: So you're outside the library. And, you know, you see there's already a commotion going on so, you know, that prompts you to go outside. And then you hear more gunshots.

SCHATZ: Yes.

JIMENEZ: What did you think was happening at that moment?

SCHATZ: At that moment, from what I could tell, I thought the shooter was in the library. And I mean, as it turns out, he was actually, what, outside of the Student Union. So inadvertently, I was probably putting myself in more harm's way. But, yes, I thought the shooter was in the library. So my instinct was just to run out and just run as far as I could.

JIMENEZ: And as I understand to the first person you called after you were safe, was your mom. And look, I mean, you know, you don't have to go far in this country to find parents who've been worried about their kids on a campus or at a school when they hear about a shooting or something like that. What was it like to talk to her, I mean, just tell me about that conversation.

SCHATZ: I could just hear -- I don't remember exactly what she said, but I could just hear the sense of dread. And her words have -- how worried she was. She had thought for a long time with how frequent this is nowadays in this country that it might happen one day somewhere near me. And then her worst nightmare came true.

And she was just panicking. But I was assuring her I was OK. The first responders were there. And it seemed like the situation was going to be under control.

JIMENEZ: Yes. Will, really appreciate you taking the time. I know it's been a long day, though, there. Just really appreciated.

SCHATZ: Yes.

JIMENEZ: I want to bring another FSU senior as well, who's on campus during the shooting Reid Seybold. Because, Reid, you know, as we just heard from some the other students as well, sounds like you were also working with fellow students in a building near the Student Union where the shooting happened.

Can you just tell me kind of when you realized that it was actually a shooting that was happening? And then what happened next?

REID SEYBOLD, FSU STUDENT WHO WITNESSED SHOOTING: For sure, Omar. So we were, like you said, we were working on the group project in our classroom. And then two students ran in yelling about a shooting. So we immediately did as we were taught to do.

We turned off the lights, locked the doors, barricaded under our desks. And, you know, for the about the hour that we were barricaded, we could hear gunshots. And then three distinct times. I remember someone trying to open our door. The second two times I know to be the police. But the first time, everyone thought it was the shooter. Now that we know he was shot outside the Student Union, we know it wasn't him. But we were in there, you know, hugging those next to us in some level of comfort, whether we knew them or not.

You know, I was texting those I love in, you know, in similarly to what you would have seen the videos from 911. Hey, I love you. I may never see you again. I might be dying.

JIMENEZ: And, you know, so as we just heard from the other student too, you know, meanwhile, parents are probably seeing this on the news or seeing stuff come out. They're trying to reach folks like you. It sounds like you're texting them as well. I can't imagine and obviously thankful you're OK.

I want to ask you about something else because as I understand you were in an extracurricular group with the suspected gunman a few years ago and that he may have been kicked out of that group. Can you just give us some insight why exactly was he may be kicked out here?

SEYBOLD: For sure. So little background.

JIMENEZ: Yes.

SEYBOLD: This was a political talk group, you know, current events of the day. And he had continually made enough people uncomfortable where, you know, certain people had stopped coming. And that's kind of when we reached the breaking point with Phoenix and we had asked him to leave.

JIMENEZ: And what exactly, if you can remember, what exactly was he saying that made people uncomfortable as you say?

[23:15:07]

SEYBOLD: You know, it's been a couple years now, I can't --

JIMENEZ: Sure.

SEYBOLD: -- give exact quotes. But, you know, whether it was in that club or in class, he, you know, talked about the ravages of multiculturalism and communism and how it's ruining America.

JIMENEZ: And, you know, I should mention, we have not been able to independently confirm the claims about the beliefs he espoused. But, you know, that's why we're talking to some folks like you who, you know, may have known him longer than we have certainly.

Another student who's in the group, I should mention too, said the suspect wasn't radical, but tended to make more conservative positions and views, adding, quote, "He was pretty normal. He was pretty nice". How do you respond to that? Could that fit in to sort of your experience with him as well?

SEYBOLD: So, it honestly sounds like the student is describing me normal and conservative. But I wholeheartedly disagree. The, you know, he wasn't -- you know, he went beyond conservatism. So I disagree.

JIMENEZ: All right. And obviously law enforcement is still looking into very specific motives on this. It's just the beginning of an investigation. But Reid --

SEYBOLD: For sure.

JIMENEZ: -- I really appreciate you sharing your experience and perspective on this. Thanks for being here. I know it's been a long day.

SEYBOLD: Thank you, Omar.

JIMENEZ: Of course.

All right. Meanwhile, President Trump is weighing in on the shooting, calling it a shame, but he also says guns don't kill people. People do. And says he'll defend the Second Amendment.

(BEGIN VIDEOCLIP)

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: As far as legislation is concerned, this has been going on for a long time. I have a -- an obligation to protect the Second Amendment. I ran on the Second Amendment among many other things, and I will always protect the Second Amendment.

(END VIDEOCLIP)

JIMENEZ: All right, with me now, longtime gun control advocate and former Florida Democratic Congresswoman Debbie Mucarsel-Powell. Really appreciate you being here.

Look, Congressman, you, you, you lost your father to gun violence back in Ecuador, so I know gun violence is personal to you. But as a member of Congress with that experience, how do you respond to President Trump calling this mass shooting a shame and saying guns don't kill people, people do?

DEBBIE MUCARSEL-POWELL (D), FORMER U.S. REPRESENTATIVE FOR FLORIDA: Yes. Good evening, Omar. And I just want to start by saying that my heart is with the families in Tallahassee who have lost their loved ones and all the other victims. Look, what's truly shameful here is that this is happening under President Trump's watch.

One of the first things that he did was eliminate the Office of Gun Prevention -- Gun Violence Prevention at the federal level. And it eliminated with it investments in community violence prevention programs, support for law enforcement, I mean, this is a national crisis.

We not only have a crisis in moral failures in this country where we are idolizing guns more than protecting the lives of our children. We have a leadership crisis. And he's speaking about the Second Amendment. No one. No one is going to be violating the Second Amendment. People here respect the right to own a gun. But we also understand that when we pass common sense gun safety laws, we prevent many of these shootings from happening.

What is truly shameful also, Omar, if I can continue here is that in Tallahassee just a few weeks ago, the House, the extreme Republican House in Tallahassee, it passed a lot, repealed a lot to lower the age limits that we had actually been able to pass after the Parkland shooting to lower the age limit from 21 to 18 so that younger kids have access to these weapons. And that's what's truly shameful.

JIMENEZ: And, you know, and I hear you on the push to obviously to take a look at laws around firearms. And, you know, one of the questions in this is that Florida law already does ban guns on college campuses and gun storage laws only apply to homes with minors, 16 and younger.

And look, every situation is obviously different. But is there anything here legally or policy wise that that could have stopped the shooting that you see?

MUCARSEL-POWELL: Well, look, we never know for sure that if we pass one law, like universal background checks or red flag laws, that it's going to prevent every single incident. We know that. But we do know that when we do pass common sense safety laws, we see a reduction in gun violence.

And I can tell you that safe storage laws are not enacted here in Florida. It could have helped if those weapons were locked so that this 20-year-old young man didn't have access to those weapons. I can assure you that it's much harder when you have those safety storage laws in place.

[23:20:00]

We tried to do that at the federal level when I was in Congress. And again, Republicans refused to do that. I had conversations with Florida lawmakers from the other side of the aisle trying to get some sense into them that this is not about ideology. This is about safety.

Republican, Democrats and Independents all agree. We want more safety, public safety for our children. Our students at FSU should not have been worrying about a shooting today. They should be preparing for exams and the pain and the trauma remains years afterwards.

If I've learned anything is that also that pain never goes away, but it does turn into resolve, resolve into fighting this senseless gun violence that we're living here in America.

JIMENEZ: And we even heard from some of the students that we just spoke to that one, you know, training from high school kicked in over what to do if there's a mass shooting. Another spoke about how his family worried if at one point this might happen close to them. There's no question, there's a lot of gun violence too much in this country.

Former Congresswoman Debbie Mucarsel-Powell, really appreciate being here.

MUCARSEL-POWELL: Thank you, Omar.

JIMENEZ: All right. Also breaking tonight, Senator Chris Van Hollen says he met with Kilmar Abrego Garcia in El Salvador after being stopped by soldiers attempting to get to the high security prison he was being -- where he was being kept. That's next, along with the scathing ruling against the Trump administration regarding Abrego Garcia's case.

And ahead, fed up. The President's beef with the Fed chair boils over. It's already been -- it's already has a little bit of a seer, saying Jerome Powell's termination can't come fast enough. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[23:26:10]

JIMENEZ: All right, breaking tonight, Maryland Democratic Senator Chris Van Hollen revealing on social media he finally met with his wrongfully deported constituent Kilmar Abrego Garcia in El Salvador, writing on X. "I said my main goal of this trip was to meet with Kilmar. Tonight, I had that chance. I have called his wife, Jennifer, to pass along his message of love. I look forward to providing a full update on my return."

But border czar Tom Homan making clear earlier he deserved to be deported, and the U.S. will not be Abrego Garcia's final destination.

(BEGIN VIDEOCLIP)

TOM HOMAN, TRUMP'S BORDER CZAR: Even if he came back, people think it's going to be released and go back to -- no, he's going to be detained, and he's going to be removed as per the order removal, either to El Salvador or another country.

(END VIDEOCLIP)

JIMENEZ: All right, a lot to talk about here. With me now the founder of LeGrand Law, Rebecca LeGrand, Former Senior Adviser to the Trump Campaign, Bryan Lanza and CNN Political Commentator Karen Finney. Good to see all of you.

Karen, I want to start with you because, you know, Senator Van Hollen's in person pressure campaign or efforts appeared to have worked in one way or another. He was able to meet with Abrego Garcia, but also President Bukele used some of the photos to say, look, Abrego Garcia is being treated so well.

KAREN FINNEY, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, we'll find out.

JIMENEZ: Sure, we will find out. But I guess my question to you is, at the end of this, it doesn't seem Abrego Garcia is any closer to returning to the U.S. or getting due process. So I wonder, do you see this as a win? How do you see this?

FINNEY: So I think there's two pieces to this, right?

JIMENEZ: Yes.

FINNEY: To the specifics of this case, we've learned something really important. El Salvador knows how to get somebody out of their own prison, and they could have actually turned them over to an American and then had facilitate him coming back to the United States.

You remember earlier this week when you had the President of El Salvador with President Trump, they were like, I don't know what we're going to do. We're going to sneak it back in, right? I mean, so, I mean, I'm being a little bit facetious, but it was certainly showed they certainly know how to identify and find him, and they're able to facilitate getting him out.

But more importantly, so there's the specifics of this case, and then there is what this represents in the context of our Constitution and the rule of law in the United States. And one of the things I think that's been interesting this week is we've been hearing reports from different Republicans who have been doing town halls, is you're seeing Americans saying what's going on with this guy who was wrongfully deported?

So it's breaking through that people understand the President of the United States is supposed to follow the rule of law. And now we're going to -- we see the courts are taking this on much, you know, we're going to go back to the courts on this issue of who was it, who disobeyed the order to turn one plane around? And who was it who -- and why can't we get Mr Abrego Garcia back?

And I think those are -- it's just on principle. And politically, I think it's important. And that was part of why I think the senator's trip was important was also to say, look, we're going to -- we have to follow the law, we have to follow due process. And we also have to make sure that he -- that this individual is OK.

JIMENEZ: Bryan, you're shaking your head through most of that. Why?

BRYAN LANZA, FMR. SENIOR ADVISER, TRUMP-VANCE 2024 PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGN: Well, he didn't follow the law to get here. He is an illegal alien. He's not a Maryland man. He's an illegal alien who beats up his girlfriend. And if that's the hill that the senator wants to fall on and, you know, then yes, I want the pictures amplified everywhere.

You know, he's -- you know, the senator's prioritize an illegal alien who smacks around his girlfriend and says, this is worthy of my time. This is worthy of --

FINNEY: And where does that -- where do you have that evidence?

LANZA: Police report, by the way. They're the --

FINNEY: From?

LANZA: From the police department.

JIMENEZ: I will say this, the wife did put out a statement to us saying --

REBECCA LEGRAND, LEGRAND LAW PLLC: Yes.

JIMENEZ: -- saying that --

FINNEY: She loves him.

JIMENEZ: -- this was -- sure that she loves her husband, but also that the protective order was filed as an order of precaution, that it didn't rise to that degree. So I'm just putting her account into this as well.

[23:30:09]

LANZA: I know plenty of wives who haven't had a file a protective order against their husbands.

JIMENEZ: Well, especially illegal aliens. Well, and --

LANZA: And it doesn't change the fact that this is an illegal alien. You know, we want the image of, you know, from our standpoint, you know, men are from Venus and women are from Mars. We want the image of this senator investing so much of his time on an illegal alien and ignoring his constituents.

LEGRAND: No --

JIMENEZ: Rebecca, you're cracking your knuckles.

LEGRAND: I know. Because I care about the Constitution. I'm a lawyer.

LANZA: Yes.

LEGRAND: And I --

LANZA: He clearly didn't.

LEGRAND: Who didn't?

LANZA: The illegal alien who broke our laws --

(CROSSTALK)

LEGRAND: OK, Judge Wilkinson -- and you know Judge Wilkinson.

LANZA: Yes.

LEGRAND: Incredibly respected conservative jurist.

JIMENEZ: Reagan appointee.

LANZA: Reagan appointee.

LEGRAND: Shortlisted for the Supreme Court numerous times. Here is what he said today, and I think everyone needs to read it. And if I can, I'll read a few quotes. LANZA: Go for it.

LEGRAND: The government is asserting a right to stash away residents of this country in a foreign prison without the semblance of due process that is the foundation of our constitutional order. That should be shocking not only to judges, but to the intuitive sense of liberty that Americans far removed from courthouses still hold dear.

He goes on. He talks about the threat to our -- the rule of law, to the foundations of our Constitution. If this kind of behavior can go on. And we're talking about a conservative judge.

LANZA: Yes.

LEGRAND: And he essentially ends with almost a prayer that the executive branch does the right thing and follows the law here. And I don't understand why this is -- this should not be controversial. It is a request that the President and the Executive Branch follow the law.

JIMENEZ: And with all of this, you know, look, we have seen attacks on, you know, maybe individual things that Abrego Garcia has done, whether it's coming into this country illegally, allegations of being a gang member.

But the circuit court here, the appeals court asserted very clearly saying the government asserts that Abrego Garcia is a terrorist and a member of MS-13. Perhaps, but perhaps not, he is still entitled to due process.

So I guess the question is here, from a political standpoint, it's clear the White House has a strategy. And I guess from a Democratic standpoint, is this something that Republicans can capitalize on by portraying someone like Senator Van Hollen as, oh, look, he went down and met with someone who is X, Y, Z?

FINNEY: Well, Bryan, just articulate the talking points. I mean, that's --

LANZA: Facts.

FINNEY: -- those are also your talking points that we've heard all week, frankly, from Republicans. But the facts are also that the President of the United States, someone who has flouted the courts throughout his career, and certainly we've seen this in the last couple of years, he also has to follow the law.

He also has to ensure due process. And so we are going to see this clash between the Executive Branch and the Judicial Branch. And I think Americans are very uncomfortable with that. And one of the things we've seen time and time again in polling, in, you know, this happened during the Iraq war, time and time again, Americans will say we want our President to follow the law.

So for Democrats, I think what's important is to stick to the values and what this case is about in terms of either we're going to be a nation that follows the Constitution or we're not. And if we're not, then let's just be honest about that. Let's not pretend that there's one set of laws for one group of people and another set of laws for a different group of people.

JIMENEZ: And Bryan, just politically, what is the strategy here? I mean, because I know you see a strategy here politically. There clearly is one.

LANZA: The talk about illegal immigration. I mean, this is an issue that's one for the President. Look, polling's come out in the last 72 hours that show 56 percent of the country agree with his position on how he's handling deportations.

You know, 10 years ago, you only had 38 percent of the country who wanted deportations. Now you have the vast majority. So clearly his message is working. He's convincing the American people that illegal immigration is a problem, that it has an effect on jobs, that has an effect on crime, that has an effect on housing, has an effect on community.

And the voters over the years have grown more popular to his positions. And he's going to continue executing. And those images, you know, maybe it is a different image, a different appeal, but we very much want to have United States senators traveling to foreign countries, fighting for illegal aliens, while, you know, other senators in the red states are defending victims of illegal aliens.

That's a conversation we will win every day. And the fact that the Democrats want to do it every day, to me, is confusing, but, you know, let them do it.

JIMENEZ: And Rebecca, just before we go --

LEGRAND: Yes, JIMENEZ: -- I know you wanted to get in there.

LEGRAND: I mean, I just -- I am -- I'm really shocked as just a citizen of this country. I agree with Judge Wilkinson. I don't always agree with him. He's a very conservative judge.

But I'll quote again, if these actions are allowed to stand, if the government's current conduct is allowed to stand, it would reduce the rule of law to lawlessness and tarnish the very values that Americans of diverse views and persuasions have always stood for.

[23:35:07]

That's what we're talking about here. We're talking about a threat to the most fundamental rights in the Constitution. And of course I want our congressmen and our senators to try and do the right thing, as the Executive Branch should be doing as well, should be complying with the Supreme Court order. I mean, that is shocking.

JIMENEZ: And that ruling did not hold back, and we don't always see judges sort of acknowledge the outside sort of pressures and worlds outside of the courtrooms themselves. And I just want to say, before we go, President Bukele tweeted out, "I love chess". This quote tweeted by Dan Scavino with a chess piece and an eye emoji. So, stay tuned.

FINNEY (?): Yes.

JIMENEZ: There'll be more at play here.

Appreciate all of you being here. Thank you.

LEGRAND: Thank you.

FINNEY: Thanks.

JIMENEZ: All right, coming up next, the very public fight President Trump is now waging with the chair of the Federal Reserve, Jerome Powell. The President says he wants Powell gone. But Powell, a lawyer by trade, says not so fast. What the markets can make of it and critically, what it could do to the economy?

And ahead, Luigi Mangione officially indicted on federal charges tonight. We'll talk about it coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[23:40:53]

JIMENEZ: Welcome back. Another chapter in Trump's longstanding feud with Federal Reserve Chair Jerome Powell. Trump's been saying on social media, "Powell's termination cannot come soon enough". And in the Oval Office, he went further.

(BEGIN VIDEOCLIP)

TRUMP: I don't think he's doing the job. He's too late. Always too late. Little slow. And I'm not happy with him. I let him know it. And if I want him out, he'll be out of there real fast. Believe me.

(END VIDEOCLIP)

JIMENEZ: Now Powell has noted that removing a Fed chair is not permitted under the law. But that comes from the Fed status as an independent government institution. It hasn't stopped Trump, though, from encroaching on that dynamic. And his latest comments come on the heels of Powell saying this about Trump's tariff policy.

(BEGIN VIDEOCLIP)

JEROME POWELL, FEDERAL RESERVE CHAIRMAN: The level of tariff increases announced so far is significantly larger than anticipated. And the same is likely to be true of the economic effects.

(END VIDEOCLIP)

JIMENEZ: Now, the Wall Street Journal is reporting that Trump has been privately discussing firing Powell for months. But some advisers, including Treasury Secretary Scott Bessent, have warned him against the move.

Joining me now is Ross Gerber, he's the President and CEO of Gerber Kawasaki Wealth and Investment Management. Thank you for being here.

Look, I think it's fair to say Trump's been challenging checks on his executive power. He's fired the FBI director in the past. He's fired federal workers from independent agencies. That cases, the Supreme Court is still weighing right now.

But do you think Trump will make the step to fire Powell? And if so, just what are the ramifications of that that you may be watching?

ROSS GERBER, PRESIDENT & CEO, GERBER KAWASAKI WEALTH AND INVESTMENT MANAGEMENT: Well, there's several scenarios that can play out now as tariffs are rapidly increasing, prices that are now just about to begin to start hitting consumers, on top of the effect on small businesses, which is fairly dramatic. So in one sense, Trump is right.

And well, yes, now we went from a very strong economy just two or three months ago to looking at a recession. So technically, Powell should be lowering rates. The problem is that he's doing this through tariffs where, you know, it's causing inflation. And the Fed's mandate is also not to have inflation.

So actually, current Fed policy is correct for where we are in the markets. But Trump wants Powell to save him from bad policy by lowering rates. And, you know, Powell's just not going to do that.

JIMENEZ: And, you know, traditionally, as it should be, by law at this point, you know, the Federal Reserve, independent of the executive office, in this case, President Trump. We know from reports that Treasury Secretary Scott Bessent is urging Trump against firing Powell. But he said in an interview that it's because monetary policy is a jewel box that's got to be preserved.

If the independence of the Federal Reserve is compromised, how does that impact the markets in the economy, that jewel box, so to speak?

GERBER: Well, I don't look at it as much as a jewel box. But I think that we have, you know, a long history of what we call an independent Fed. Remember, it's appointed by, you know, the president --

JIMENEZ: Yes.

GERBER: -- and Congress at the time. And so there is some politics involved with this. You know, there's usually some coordination between the administration and the Fed as far as policy so that policies make sense. And this is what's the problem is there isn't coordination between Trump and Powell.

So their policies, you know, contradict each other and hence where the conflict arises. And so, I think the bigger issue is even if you fire Powell, it doesn't change the effect of, if you just lower interest rates, 100 basis points, does it solve the higher cost of living? No, it won't. And then you get a different set of distortions and you lose a certain level of confidence. So right now, there is very little confidence in the markets with Trump. And that's why the value of all American assets has dropped by at least 10 percent since Trump has taken office and could drop substantially more if these bad policies continue.

[23:45:03]

So a more bad policy by forcing lower rates actually causes even more inflation. And so, it's not as simple as just firing Powell. And then you lose confidence in the system, which then puts more pressure on markets.

So Bessent is right, that we don't want to destabilize confidence in the Trump administration any further because the effects could be very destabilizing for markets. So Trump is playing a very dangerous game and he's not a very smart man, it seems.

JIMENEZ: And confidence in the economy may have been, what, affected the bond market moves that clearly, as we understand from reporting, spooked some people enough to where it influenced President Trump to make some adjustments on tariffs.

Ross Gerber, I got to leave it there, but I really appreciate you being here. Thanks for the time and insight.

GERBER: Yes, thanks for having me.

JIMENEZ: Of course.

All right, federal charges officially levied tonight against the man accused of murdering the UnitedHealthcare CEO. And the Trump White House vowing to pursue the death penalty for Luigi Mangione. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[23:50:45]

JIMENEZ: Welcome back. New tonight, Luigi Mangione has officially been indicted on federal charges in the killing of UnitedHealthcare CEO Brian Thompson. This not only heaps on the charges Mangione already faces, but it also puts the death penalty on the table, at least per Attorney General Pam Bondi, who is saying, "I have directed federal prosecutors to seek the death penalty in this case as we carry out President Trump's agenda to stop violent crime and make America safe again".

Joining me now to discuss, Former Manhattan Prosecutor and Criminal Defense Attorney Jeremy Saland. Really appreciate you being here.

Look, I think people may have thought he was charged already. He was charged at the state level, now you've got these new charges. Mangione, as we've heard from the attorney general, facing the death penalty with these new charges.

Does that seem likely or is that more posturing that you would do as a prosecutor coming into a case like this?

JEREMY SALAND, FORMER MANHATTAN PROSECUTOR: I think he generally wants to, quote unquote, "keep America safe again". But it's somewhat more posturing if you may or may not recall about maybe seven, eight years ago, there was a guy who ran over, unfortunately mowed down and killed people in New York.

JIMENEZ: Yes, Mossad Howard (ph).

SALAND: Correct. That person, a jury, did not say was deserving of the death penalty. You need an anonymous jury. But I just want to say very, very quickly, you hear the President today talking about it was terrible and a shame what happened with these killings and these guns on campuses where he has a child on a college campus.

I have a child on a college campus. When you talk about his obligation to protect the Second Amendment, I would say to Mr. President, you have an obligation to protect the people of the United States. And a CEO, as tragic as it is, and it is tragic and we should take nothing away from it, that is no different or more deserving of a death penalty than if someone crosses state lines with a gun and kills, for example, their ex-spouse in a domestic violence case.

There needs to be a reprioritizing of what is right and how to protect the nation if we're really going to keep America safe again.

JIMENEZ: And, you know, as people sort of look at this case, obviously it's been very closely followed. Mangione has already pleaded not guilty to 11 counts in New York, including first degree murder and furtherance of terrorism. If convicted on that charge, he could face life without parole.

Those are state charges, though.

SALAND: Correct.

JIMENEZ: Can you just walk us through some of the key differences between the federal and state charges? Is there a case that will be harder to prove? I mean, just what are the differences here?

SALAND: Yes, I think for the state to get that murder one charge, which, again --

JIMENEZ: Yes.

SALAND: -- you can't get the death penalty, that has that terrorism element. That is not an element for murder in the second degree, where in that state and in the federal case, they don't have to prove that element of that terrorism piece or component.

What they would do is you're using this firearm across state lines, for lack of a better way to describe it, in that murder or homicide. So it's easier for the murder two and it's easier for the federal case, but it's much more difficult for New York to get the murder one conviction. JIMENEZ: And, you know, Jeremy, for many, this case has become a symbol of national outrage at America's health care system. You know, some of our reporters, for example, have spoken to some of Mangione's more vocal supporters here.

But I guess when you have a highly publicized case on an issue that might be highly charged as well, how does the court handle trying to find impartial jurors in a case where a lot of people have a lot of opinions?

SALAND: Yes, it's difficult, but you hope and expect that ultimately the court will instruct the jury and potential jurors correctly. We had a case, which was at the time the biggest case and maybe still is, with Donald Trump in state court finding a jury that's going to be honest and follow the law.

The concern here is for the prosecution that you might have, for lack of a better term, a sleeper person who may say the right things but have really an allegiance, if you will, to Mangione because all you need is one person to get a mistrial.

So that's more of a danger for the prosecution than it is a defense, but both sides are going to want to make sure they have the right jurors.

JIMENEZ: And from a legal perspective, should the defense try to put the health care system on trial as part of their strategy? I mean, how effective would that be? Because, again, a lot of people do look at this case or at least aspects of this case as an indictment on the health care system as well.

SALAND: Yes, I think that's going to be a component of it. I do believe that there's a mental health in terms of the actual defense.

[23:55:02]

But when you're looking at mitigation, which plays a nullification type of a scenario in a trial like this, you're going to want to put it out there because that pulls on the heartstrings of so many people who have loved ones and family members who have issues, you know, with the health care system.

But the judge is going to do his or her due diligence to make sure that that jury is not swayed and follows the law, even if the defense kind of pokes those holes and tries to bring that out.

JIMENEZ: Jeremy Saland, always appreciate the time and perspective. Thanks for being here.

SALAND: My pleasure, Omar.

JIMENEZ: And thank you all for watching. Really appreciate the time.

Anderson Cooper 360 up next.