Return to Transcripts main page

Laura Coates Live

Trump Says He Doesn't Know If He Needs To Uphold The Constitution; Trump Directs Federal Bureau Of Prisons To Reopen Alcatraz; Trump Rattles Hollywood With New Tariff Plan; Jury Selection In Diddy Trial Begins; Met Gala Celebrates The History Of Black Dandy Fashion. Aired 11p-12a ET

Aired May 05, 2025 - 23:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

ABBY PHILLIP, CNN ANCHOR AND SENIOR POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: And officials fear the disruption may last for weeks. Tonight, the transportation secretary is teasing changes to the system. It's worth noting, last Friday, despite being dazed into the safety crisis, Sean Duffy, the transportation secretary, tweeted about his taco dinner.

And thank you for watching "NewsNight." You can catch me any time on your favorite media X, Instagram and TikTok. "Laura Coates Live" starts right now.

LAURA COATES, CNN HOST: Tonight, Trump looks back in time with reverence for Alcatraz and Hollywood. And what happens when he's asked about the nation's oldest and most important document and about those tariffs that might hit the film industry? Is Trump producing his trade war as a mystery, a hero's revenge or a horror show? Plus, the Diddy trial begins. The questions potential jurors are facing and what Diddy himself revealed to a judge. Tonight on "Laura Coates Live."

So, you know how President Trump talks about kick starting America's golden age? Seems like he wants to do it by brushing the rust off old American icons. Take Alcatraz.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: Presents something very strong, very powerful in terms of law and order. Our country needs law and order. It represents something. Right now, it's a big hulk that's sitting there, rusting and rotting. Very -- you look at it. It's sort of an -- you saw that picture that was put out. It's sort of amazing. But it -- it sorts of represents something that's both horrible and beautiful and strong and miserable, weak.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: Now, the former maximum-security prison has been closed for six decades. When people hear about it now, they probably think about San Francisco tourism. Nicolas Cage and Sean Connery may come to mind before Al Capone and Machine Gun Kelly. But Trump, he wants to change that by taking it back to its notorious heyday, a place where the worst of the worst were locked up.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) TRUMP: It has the most violent criminals in the world. And nobody ever escaped. One person almost got there, but they -- as you know the story, they found his clothing rather badly ripped up. And it was a lot of shark bites, a lot of -- a lot of problems.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: Now, never mind the logistics or the shark biting costs. Trump thinks he can dress up Alcatraz just like good speed dressed up Mason.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEAN CONNERY, ACTOR: I want a sweet, shower, shave, and the feel of a suit.

NICOLAS CAGE, ACTOR: May I also suggest a haircut?

CONNERY: A mildest style.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: And if it was Hollywood that helped boost Alcatraz into an American icon, well, now, it's Trump who wants to boot Hollywood. He's talking about making the American film industry great again, like something out of old school postcard Hollywood with all the glitz and glam. How? By putting 100% tariffs on movies that are produced outside the U.S.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: Hollywood doesn't do very much of that business. They have the nice sign and everything is good, but they don't do very much. A lot of it has been taken to other countries. The industry was decimated. If you look at how little is done in this country now, you know, you think we were the ones -- we used to do a hundred not long ago. A hundred percent. Now, we do almost, like, very little. It's shocking.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: So, what exactly will movie tariffs look like, you're asking? Well, it's not actually clear, but industry insiders are warning it could have actually the opposite effect and bring movie production to a complete halt.

So, if Trump is trying to revive the icons of American strength, is he also sticking by the one that defines it? You know, the one signed by the country's founding fathers that outlines how government is supposed to work, the one Trump himself swore to uphold not once but twice. You know I'm talking about the Constitution. Right?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KRISTEN WELKER, NBC NEWS WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Don't you need to uphold the Constitution of the United States as president?

TRUMP: I don't know. I have to respond by saying, again, I have brilliant lawyers that work for me, and they are going to obviously follow what the Supreme Court said.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: They were talking about the president's deportations at that point, and specifically whether people being deported deserve due process. But even on the Fifth Amendment, Trump kind of pleaded the Fifth.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WELKER: Your secretary of state says everyone who's here, citizens and noncitizens, deserve due process. Do you agree, Mr. President?

TRUMP: I don't know. I'm not -- I'm not a lawyer. I don't know.

WELKER: Well, the Fifth Amendment --

[23:05:00]

TRUMP: I don't know. It seems -- it seems -- it -- it might say that. But if you're talking about that, then we'd have to have a million or two million or three million trials.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: With me now, CNN contributor and former Nixon White House counsel, John Dean. Good to see you, my friend. I -- I have to ask you whether you interpreted President Trump's comments as him being genuinely unaware of the due process element or something else.

JOHN DEAN, CNN CONTRIBUTOR, FORMER NIXON WHITE HOUSE COUNSEL: I seriously doubt he is aware with any sophistication at all of what due process might -- might mean, although he has been granted it in several instances himself.

I think, Laura, what we have is he's producing a reality television show and every day, he's got to add a little bit more, a little bit different direction, bring something new and sparkling and confusing into the conversation, and on and on we go. So, I don't know where his movie is going to end.

COATES: Well, the lawyers always find a way into every fabulous scene of a movie, and he was pressed on issues of constitutionality, John. He was pressed on due process, and he repeatedly deferred to his lawyers. What did you make of that given, of course, Trump has been someone that some lawyers have looked at and said, oh, my God, please don't say that?

DEAN: Well, his lawyers -- he has some intel -- highly intelligent lawyers --

COATES: Uh-hmm.

DEAN: -- but he also got some lawyers who are in a lot of trouble. They're getting hammered in court. Some 200 cases -- I think about 225 cases are now pending against him in his executive orders, so he's being tested almost daily in court, and the skill of his lawyers is really showing a great need for greater ability. I think that the good ones have left and those that are there are kind of just stumbling along and getting criticized by the judges for it.

COATES: Well, you know, the former vice president under the first term, Trump, Mike Pence, he told my colleague, Kaitlan Collins, tonight that Trump -- quote -- "understands his responsibilities" and that he will uphold the Constitution. Do you share that confidence?

(LAUGHTER)

DEAN: That's the -- that's the big question. And I think he likes to play outside the Constitution whenever he can. That's one of the reasons he probably dodged the question as to whether or not he was bound by the Constitution. He just doesn't want to seem to face reality. It is better theater for him, Laura, for him not to admit to being bound to the oath he took twice to be in charge of the Constitution and to honor and obey it.

COATES: Really quick, is there room in a world where Trump was limiting his conversation to the issues of deportation and saying that he wants to defer to his counsel because they need to interpret the Supreme Court's ruling, not him?

(LAUGHTER)

DEAN: Well, he -- he is obviously bound by the Constitution. He's obviously bound by the Supreme Court. He seems to impose the Supreme Court as the only person that can interpret the Constitution. But many of his predecessors have indeed issued rulings of their own to interpret the Constitution. So-called signing statements are once the vogue. We've not seen those out of Trump yet.

COATES: Yeah.

DEAN: Yet.

COATES: You said -- you said -- oh, you said yet twice. I'm waiting for it. John Dean, thank you so much.

DEAN: Thank you, Laura.

COATES: I want to bring in former communications aide to Senator Lindsey Graham and vice president at Push Digital Group, T.W. Arrighi, and former Obama campaign adviser, Ameshia Cross. Good to have both of you here with me.

I -- I want to talk about how there is obviously a difference between how people have been interpreting what he said. From conservative media to others, are looking at it very differently. T.W., Republican Senator Rand Paul wrote on social media, following the Constitution is not a suggestion. No. Indeed, it is not. What do you think Trump meant?

T.W. ARRIGHI, VICE PRESIDENT OF PUSH DIGITAL GROUP, FORMER COMMUNICATIONS AIDE TO LINDSEY GRAHAM AND MIKE POMPEO: I think he was responding to Kristen Wilker's question, that they were talking about for the two minutes prior, about the Abrego Garcia case and whether or not the president should or could bring him back.

Look, he was being asked, should you enforce the Constitution? He said he wants to, and he -- he plans on it. But he says the attorney general of the United States, who is in charge of enforcing the laws of this country, is the one giving him counsel as -- and his team of lawyers because he isn't a lawyer, and he needs that counsel. I think that's a fair answer.

COATES: Are you satisfied? But -- I mean, obviously, look at the org chart. Right? The executive branch. The A.G. serves under the pleasure of the president. He is the top of the so-called heap in the totem pole at that. Are you satisfied by that response that he is simply -- he wants to and he -- he should or he -- or defer?

AMESHIA CROSS, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Absolutely not. I think that Trump is smarter than some people give him credit for, and he is very keen on the types of language that he uses in these interviews.

[23:10:00]

He is playing a very problematic game. This is a man who knows that he took the oath not once but twice to not only obey the Constitution, but this -- the presidency is bound by it. It does not determine by how the A.G., who he appointed, decides whether or not he's going to abide by the Constitution or whether or not she believes in the constitutionality of him not bringing Abrego Garcia back.

I think that what he is trying to do is this campaign he has been doing over and over again of demonizing of immigrants, of trying to make it okay to avoid or circumvent due process, and that's why he kept sticking to that.

I'll give it to Kristen Walker. She -- you know, she poked, she prodded, but he was very much on this same message, and nothing she said was going to make him move.

COATES: Secretary of State Marco Rubio, though -- I mean, he has been willing to say -- he has confirmed, which is indeed what the Supreme Court has said, that everyone on U.S. soil. I mean, whether you are a citizen or not, they are entitled to due process. Doesn't necessarily mean, you know, that they won't be able to remain, but due process.

Why is the words of secretary of state, who he's relied on to talk about foreign policy and deportation, why is that less significant than, say, a Pam Bondi?

ARRIGHI: Well, I'm -- I'm also certain it is, and I think Donald Trump just last week said he thinks that people should get due process. I think we're --

COATES: He said -- he said a process.

ARRIGHI: Sure. But he also did say the -- the words due process. But I would say this. Look, it's a -- it's not unusual for a president to have its issues with the Supreme Court and have it play out in court or think that the laws could change. Laws do change. Supreme Court change their mind. That happens frequently.

And today, the -- the administration put out talking points about 1996 when the Supreme Court changed their rulings on summary reviews to allow for -- to get rid of some judicial processes --

COATES: Uh-hmm.

ARRIGHI: -- for illegal immigrants so they can be deported in larger numbers. Obviously, he thinks the Alien Enemies Act gives him some cover in some of these circumstances.

Look, I'd love to see what John Adams has to say about a lot of this, but we can't bring him back. But it's not unusual for presidents to have their issues with the Supreme Court in a judicial branch. It's playing out in front of us. We haven't seen it at this volume in a long time. But it's not unhealthy.

COATES: He just asked for Paul Giamatti, who helped played a hell of a John Adams.

(LAUGHTER)

ARRIGHI: He did.

COATES: You want to call him, let me know. I'll ask you the questions you think we may answer. I want to turn to the economy for a second because Trump has been continuing to argue, Ameshia, that children can cut back on toys. They -- you know, kids are known for their sacrifices, by the way, as a mother of two. Sure. Even school supplies. Listen to what he had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: I'm just saying they don't need to have $30. They can have three. They don't need to have 250 pencils. They can have five.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: Do you see an issue with the president deciding how much is too much?

CROSS: Absolutely, especially when the president comes from a golden spoon family and has provided everything for his own kids and talked about bringing in this era of prosperity for American families. That's one of the reasons why many people went to the polls and voted for him in November anyway.

I also take issue with this president saying that, you know, the good parts of the economy are his and the bad parts are Joe Biden's. This is a guy who refuses to acknowledge that his tariff plan and tariff strategy has had adverse outcomes.

And a lot of those are felt by the same people at home who went in November and checked the ballot box for Donald Trump because they assumed, because he told them all, that he was going to reel in cost, their cost of living, their cost of utilities, their cost of everyday goods. And what we're seeing is those things become more amplified.

It's not just about toys. Toys are probably, you know --

COATES: Sure.

CROSS: -- much lower on that tier.

COATES: Of course.

CROSS: But everyday items that they can no longer afford. I don't know how many 11-year-olds are still playing with dolls. To be honest, most people are looking at electronics at this point. I've seen six-year- olds with them. He doesn't want to talk about the tariffs on electronics either. But I do think that he's going to have to have a better answer than you all are just going have to figure it out, give kids less toys and pencils. That's not going to flow.

COATES: My daughter just turned 11 today. She does not want less of anything. But let me ask you, T.W., on your take. Prosperity and sacrifice don't always go hand in hand for voters. How should they see this?

ARRIGHI: Well, two things. Burden sharing as an argument is always a tough one to sell. But President Trump has made it clear when he ran for office and 30 years prior, like, for example, you never see it -- when was the last time you saw Ford in Tokyo? He believes that the entire system is rigged against the American worker and against American products.

I'll be very interested to see at the end of these 90 days how many tariffs on countries not named China stick. I'm very interested in that. I think people are lining up outside of his office to make deals. He, yes, last week, had a number of CEOs announcing new investments in America. That was always the goal. Sure.

He believes that an increase of tariffs on China may have a little bit of an increase, but not as much as people are thinking. We'll see how long it sticks with China because, look, if the Chinese people aren't working, President Xi doesn't have a job, and he knows that.

CROSS: He tweets everything that's happening. If these people were lining up outside of his office, we would have seen it online, pushed by the White House already. It's clearly not.

ARRIGHI: I think you'll see some movement.

COATES: Hmm. Okay. Someone got to put a ring on it to convince us. T.W., Ameshia, thank you both.

Still ahead, lights, cameras, tariffs? How President Trump's trade war is coming for Hollywood with an announcement that has the film industry nervously, well, scratching its head.

[23:15:01] And later, inside the courtroom for Diddy's trial as potential jurors are quizzed on what they know about the case, certain celebrities, and one piece of evidence the defense didn't want in.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(MUSIC PLAYING)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: Who can forget the time Tom Cruise jumped out of the tallest building in the world in "Mission Impossible 4" set in Dubai?

[23:20:02]

Well, Hollywood stunt king may have to keep it local. Depart the Empire State Building instead. That's because the president is proposing a staggering hundred percent tariff on new movies being produced outside of the United States, even going as far as calling this a national security threat.

Now, he plans to meet with Hollywood execs before making a final decision. And this is actually not the first time that Trump took aim with foreign influence on the movies. Remember what he said when "Parasite" won Best Picture in 2020?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: By the way, how bad were the Academy Awards this year? You see? And the winner is a movie from South Korea. What the hell was that all about?

(LAUGHTER)

We got enough problems with South Korea with trade. On top of it, they give them the Best Movie of the Year. Was it good? I don't know. You know, I'm looking for, like, where -- where -- Let's get "Gone with the Wind." Can we get, like, "Gone with the Wind" back, please?

(APPLAUSE)

"Sunset Boulevard." So many great movies. The winner is from South Korea.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: It's actually a hell of a movie. With me now, anchor and correspondent for Bloomberg News, David Gura, along with CNN media analyst and senior media reporter at Axios, Sara Fischer. Sara, first of all, I mean, how does one tariff a movie?

SARA FISCHER, CNN MEDIA ANALYST, SENIOR MEDIA REPORTER FOR AXIOS: We are all trying to figure that out, Laura.

COATES: Okay.

FISCHER: I've been on the phone with Hollywood Execs all day. I mean, there's a couple of different ways you can imagine they might do it. So, one is you could tariff the actual ticket sales. You could tariff production costs of producing parts of the movie outside of the United States.

Remember, that's one of the big challenges with a policy like this. You could have a movie that's entirely produced in the United States, yet you export some of the editing to a country where the labor is cheaper, or you import costumes to a country where some of those materials are cheaper.

What counts as being foreign produced or produced in a foreign land? We don't know. So, until that is defined, there's a reason Hollywood is being silent on this. There's not much they can say or do.

COATES: I mean, Trump is going to meet with executives at some point for making a final decision. I mean, how -- how is Hollywood reacting to this news?

FISCHER: They're pretty freaked out, and I'll tell you why. The United States exports way more films than we import. In terms of value, it's three to one. And so, for them, if we are to impose tariffs on films coming into the U.S., from foreign places where they're produced, the fear is that countries would retaliate and that all those films that we export would then get taxed.

Not only would that crush some of these movie studios, it would have a trickle-down effect for all of Hollywood production into theaters. Theaters are already struggling, Laura, since the pandemic. They have not made up for the lost revenue. People are worried this would put a huge, huge damper on Hollywood's recovery effort. They're panicked.

COATES: Fine. I'll see "Sinners" for a third time. Fine. I'll go back to the movies again. David, on this point, I mean, Trump's special ambassador to Hollywood is actor Jon Voight, and he actually met with the president to talk about some of the struggles with the industry. He identified a number of things, including why people are leaving to even cruise outside of the United States of America. What are some of the solutions being discussed?

DAVID GURA, ANCHOR AND CORRESPONDENT, BLOOMBERG NEWS: One can imagine that what Jon Voight would have talked to him about is just the incentive structure for making movies in the United States, and we see this play out on a domestic level. States are vying for Hollywood's attention, shoot movies in certain states.

I think what we see here, though, is the president once again relying on the tool that he's so fond of using, and that's tariffs. So, again, I think that there could be a conceivable way in which the government through incentives would encourage Hollywood to make more films here in the United States, not to look overseas, but again using this blunt object that he's so fond of using.

I don't think there's an easy way for that to -- for Hollywood to understand sort of how that would work in this case to -- to make it so it would be more appealing to make movies here.

COATES: Why do you think he's focused on the art so much, in the tariff world now?

GURA: I don't -- he's the strangest thief. Like, I don't know sort of his -- his taste in art, I don't think, is widely shared. But we saw there in that clip, he has a fondness for art during a certain period of time.

COATES: Uh-hmm.

GURA: But just stepping back more broadly, we've seen the actions he has taken with the Kennedy Center, for instance.

COATES: Right.

GURA: He feels like he has a sense of what American arts and culture is and, look, this is one facet of kind of a larger scheme the president has put in place here to kind of change the way that American culture is shaped and influenced and supported by the federal government. And so, I kind of look at this in complement of what we've seen in recent days with the National Endowment for the Arts, for instance --

COATES: Right.

GURA: -- and a host of grants being canceled there and a lot of artists who are sort of wondering about their future going forward. So, he feels like he has a sensibility or a sense of what American art is, and we've seen again in recent days him taking a real attitude to sort of reshaping what that is in -- in -- in the image that he wants.

COATES: Let me turn to reshaping of currency in many ways. I mean, Trump is offering -- quote -- "the most exclusive invitation in the world," Sara. He's making it to the top 220 holders of his meme coin, and the top perk is dinner with the president.

[23:25:01]

I mean, he could make millions from this, Sara.

FISCHER: Yeah. That's why people are wondering if this is a really big conflict of interest --

COATES: Uh-hmm.

FISCHER: -- especially because if you think about Donald Trump, he had a lot of legal fees heading into this election. Campaign Finest was a great way where he could pull some of those funds. I don't believe that 2028 is a real thing that's on his mind. In fact, his press secretary, Karoline Leavitt, told Axios that in an event, that the 2028 hat was just a hat.

So then why does he need to do this? Because after he's out of office, there's going to be other bills that need to get paid, legal fees, etcetera. And this has been a gold mine. The Trump coin has made him so much richer.

But remember, it's on paper, Laura. That's the number one thing I need to stress. Similar to Truth Social, which is their parent company trades publicly, the actual value of that stock is divorced from how it's being traded.

It's a very similar thing when you're talking about meme coins or the Trump coin. The actual value that it represents is not same -- the same to what it actually would trade at.

COATES: Well, we'll see what happens. Everyone, exclusive dinner. David Gura, Sara Fischer, thank you both so much.

Up next, the complicated search for a jury in the Diddy trial. We'll take you inside the court with the key questions being asked today and the moment today where Diddy revealed how he's feeling the judge. The court sketch artist who watched his every move will join us.

Plus, Trump said he's serious about reopening Alcatraz. So, what exactly would it take to pull that off? And what would DOGE think about the answer?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[23:30:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COATES: Well, the legal saga of disgraced music mogul Sean "Diddy" Combs is now in the most pivotal chapter, the trial. Combs has been charged with racketeering and transportation to engage in prostitution and sex trafficking. His has pled not guilty to all of those charges.

And a week from today, a jury is expected to hear all the arguments. Now, the process of selecting that jury began with Combs in court today. Now, no final jurors have been chosen yet, but 19 potential jurors have made it past at least round one, and jury selection is going to continue tomorrow.

Among the questions potential jurors have asked, where -- were they aware that names of A-list celebrities might surface during the trial? Another question to jurors, have they been following the case, and have they seen the 2016 video of Combs hitting Cassie Ventura? At least one person said yes and called the tape -- quote -- "damning." That person was excused.

With me now, courtroom sketch artist Christine Cornell. She was inside the courtroom today. Also here, jury consultant Richard Gabriel. Christine, I want to begin with you. Many people believe they know the public persona of Diddy, but what was the man walked in the courtroom like today?

CHRISTINE CORNELL, COURTROOM SKETCH ARTIST: Well, he looked out across the audience, looking for someone who was a supporter, I assume, and he put his hand over his heart when he saw them. Then he hugged each and every one of his attorneys, which was really quite demonstrative. That's -- that's how the day began.

You know, he sat down. His back was to the room. They let the -- the -- the jury come in and fill up the entire space. And the judge explained to them the -- the rules and how they were going to proceed. And -- and when they swore them in, you know, we were all standing and facing them.

And Puff was nodding. And he was nodding, you know, quite regularly. I'm -- it made me think that maybe he was doing, you know, a human thing, making eye contact with various people and just establishing, you know, I'm -- I'm a person here.

COATES: There was an exchange, though, between him and the judge today. What was that about?

CORNELL: It was a very brief exchange. At one point, his lawyer asked for a bathroom break. We've been in there for a couple hours. And the judge said, can't you wait another hour? And then he said -- then Puffy spoke up and said, I'm -- I'm sorry, judge, I'm a little nervous today. And they right away allowed us to have a break so that Puffy could go out.

COATES: One of the jurors as well, Christine, was excused today because that person called the Cassie Ventura tape -- quote -- "damning." What was the reaction of Diddy at that time?

CORNELL: Well, he -- he shot a look at his lawyer, of course, right away, saying, uh-uh, not this one. The judge asked her to expand on that. And what she said was that the -- the woman in the video didn't look like she was in a position she wanted to be in. That was, you know, pretty clear.

COATES: Hmm.

CORNELL: And there were several people who actually said that they'd seen the video. Just seeing the video wasn't enough to get you thrown off. In fact, the judge was trying not to do too much of that. He was leaving it up to the lawyers. You have peremptory challenges, he pointed out to them. You can do it later.

COATES: Richard, I want to bring you in here as a consultant because on that point, several jurors saying that they had seen the video. Obviously, this is also a very famous person. It likely be shown during the trial as well. And Cassie Ventura could even testify at the trial. How does the defense team then navigate this during their jury selection?

[23:35:02]

RICHARD GABRIEL, JURY CONSULTANT: It's very difficult. With this much pretrial publicity and these many jurors that know, first of all, who Diddy is and also have seen the video, there's a lot of opinions that have been formed already. And then, you're asking them, well can you be fair and impartial? So, it's difficult for them to then set aside what they have seen and felt about what they've seen before, and then to listen to evidence afresh. So, it's a difficult task that I think the judge and the lawyers have, to try and evaluate who are people who truly can sort of look at this with fresh eyes and an open mind and judge it just on the evidence and testimony in the courtroom.

COATES: Somebody else who was excused as a prospective juror was a woman who says she worked on the press release for Al B. Sure, an R&B artist who's on and has an upcoming memoir, which is allegations against Combs that this case is going to be happening where Diddy built his brand and, of course, had so many industries, as you well know. And, of course, with a familial connection, Al B. Sure is also the father of one of Diddy's stepsons as well.

What challenge does that present for prosecutors, to have jurors have this very wide scope of knowledge about his life?

GABRIEL: Well, it's -- it's difficult for both sides. I mean, what we found in high-profile cases, which I've done a lot of, is that some jurors really do bring a lot to the table. But then they actually -- once they start hearing the case, it all of a sudden is more complex and more nuanced than they originally thought. And sometimes, that pretrial publicity actually disfavors the prosecution.

That being said, most of the pretrial publicity favors the prosecution because jurors do have this negative impression based on the pretrial publicity that they've seen. And as a result, sometimes, prosecutors just want to let those people sit, and then it's a -- it's a numbers game at that point about how many peremptory challenges the defense has to knock off some of those problematic jurors.

COATES: Meanwhile, Christine, you have a singular focus on making sure you're capturing his demeanor, his expressions, the overall essence and color in the courtroom. He wasn't wearing prison clothing. He, of course, was able to wear his own clothes for this -- for this trial now. Had he looked different from the first time you've seen him in the courtroom? Had he aged in any way? Had his hair color changed? What can you tell us?

CORNELL: He looks quite a bit different. First of all, he was dressed very nicely in a very dark sweater and bright white shirt. You know, he just looked good, put together. His hair has grayed out. He's very salt and peppery on top. And he has a very briskly little small goatee right beneath his chin, very white.

And I thought that was kind of fun. It was -- you know, I didn't think it -- it made him look like a full-grown man and not a, you know, perpetual teenager.

COATES: We'll see how the jurors read it and view this entire trial once they are selected. Christina -- Christine Cornell, excuse me, Richard Gabriel, thank you both.

GABRIEL: Thank you.

CORNELL: Thank you. COATES: Still ahead, it was one of America's most notorious prisons, Alcatraz, AKA "The Rock," near impossible to escape unless maybe you're Sean Connery. The only thing harder, reopening it. So just how far fetched is President Trump's idea, really? We'll get perspective tonight from an expert who actually worked the island inside and out.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[23:40:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNKNOWN: Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to Broadway. This cell block housed the most awesome scum in America. Ladies and gentlemen, I, Ranger Bob, cordially invite you to become inmates of Alcatraz.

UNKNOWN: No one has ever escaped from Alcatraz. And no one ever will.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: Is America's most infamous prison about to make a major comeback? You might remember Alcatraz as the place that Clint Eastwood pulled off his grand escape or where Sean Connery saved millions from a gas attack and one of my personal favorites, "The Rock."

But today, President Trump is signaling he's not messing around about reopening the former prison, writing in part -- quote -- "rebuild and open Alcatraz. For too long, America has been plagued by vicious, violent, and repeat criminal offenders, the drags of society, who will never contribute anything other than misery and suffering."

Well, today, the Bureau of Prison director saying the plan is already in motion. Joining me now, Alcatraz historian, John Martini. John, welcome. I mean, Alcatraz, it has not been a functioning prison since, what, 1963. And one of the reasons it was closed is that it was the first -- in the first place is because it was nearly three times more expensive to operate than any other federal prison. So, could you explain a little bit of how this would even work? Where would you begin to reopen Alcatraz?

JOHN MARTINI, ALCATRAZ HISTORIAN: Oh, boy. It -- it depends what the scope of the project would be. Listen to the president. It's unclear if he's talking about rebuilding the existing historic prison and making it functional again to lock up people or some vision of tearing down the historic buildings on the island and constructing an even new complex.

[23:45:05]

I -- I'm not a contractor or an estimator, but I think the first thing you'd want do is get out and take a look at the existing structures and utility systems and find out what, if anything, could be saved.

COATES: What condition is it in now in terms of being able to be operable now?

MARTINI: It -- it almost isn't. The park service, when we took over the island in 1973 to open to the public, there were no functioning utilities at all on the island. Even today, water comes from the mainland. There's no sanitation. There's no running water. No sewage. All the garbage and human sewage has to be hauled off the island by boat.

Many of the buildings that are standing are essentially stabilized ruins. A few buildings have been rehabilitated for use like a warehouse. But the big prison building itself, it's got some serious structural problems that would have to be addressed.

But, essentially, it was closed because it was in harm's way, and it -- it hasn't gotten any better in 63 years.

COATES: I myself have toured it as a tourist in San Francisco before as well, and -- and wondered how one could get it up to speed right now in the year 2025. But tell me about the security mechanisms at the original Alcatraz. How did those mechanisms differ from a, say, modern maximum-security prison? Would Alcatraz be any more effective than those?

MARTINI: No. The -- the prison building itself that people visit was actually completed way back in 1912. U.S. Army built it for housing U.S. Army soldier prisoners. And in the early 1930s, it was turned over to the Bureau of Prisons.

It was upgraded. They put in the modern tool proof steel bar doors. They put in some remote-control systems and early, early prototype metal detectors. But all of those are gone. Guard towers, there used to be six around the island. There's one that's preserved as a -- as a museum piece. The cells are -- are tiny. They're nowhere near contemporary standards for incarcerated people. You've seen it. Did little 5 by 9 cubicle. They didn't even have hot water in those cells until, like, the last year that the prison operated.

So, it's -- essentially, if the money was put into the building that's there now and it was rebuilt and brought up and all the utilities were restored, you'd have a remarkably restored 1912 prism.

COATES: How much are we -- how much are we talking about, John? You think?

MARTINI: Oh, I have no idea. I -- I'm not a contractor or an estimator. But, obviously, something with a whole lot of zeros behind it.

(LAUGHTER)

COATES: Well, there are some of those zeros in terms of tourism because the National Park Service says it receives over $60 million a year in revenue from tourism to Alcatraz. About a million people visit every single year. I mean, you're a former park ranger. What would happen if the Park Service lost that type of income? MARTINI: Much of that income goes to rehabilitation and restoration on the island. There's an ongoing program to replace old, rotted and collapsing concrete.

COATES: Hmm.

MARTINI: Upgrade, like, electrical in some of the buildings that we use. If that revenue didn't come, well, there would go a lot of the rehabilitated restoration. There's sort of a moot point if it was turned into a penitentiary again.

The revenue that preserves Alcatraz, you'd have to consider that the island is being preserved because Congress told us to preserve it for future generations because of its many stories, not just the penitentiary, but it was a civil war fort, it was a sprawling army prison for over 80 years.

In the 1960s, it was the site of a Native American statement when Indians of all tribes, as they call themselves, took over the island again. It has been discovered that it has incredible natural resources. It's a bird breeding ground. If the Congress de-legislated Alcatraz and gave it to the Bureau of Prisons --

COATES: Oh.

MARTINI: -- all that would be moved.

COATES: All that might be lost. John Martini, thank you.

MARTINI: You're welcome. Thanks for inviting me.

COATES: Glad you came. Up next, the Met Gala, all the must-see stars sporting all the must-see looks, and why "The New York Times" is calling it the most politically charged Met Gala in years.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[23:50:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(MUSIC PLAYING)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: A choir of tuxedo-dressed men opening the Met Gala to celebrate fashion's biggest night and its theme, black dandyism. And that dates back to the 18th century. Black servants and slaves were forced to wear refined looks that signaled their owners' wealth. After emancipation, Black people reclaimed the style as their own, adding fashionable twists and turns to exemplify their identity.

And that was on display at Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York. Actor Kerry Washington and singer Janelle Monae, stunning on the blue carpet. Actor and event co-chair Colman Domingo showcasing two looks.

[23:55:00]

Others like musician Andre 3000 going over the top, literally wearing a piano on his back. And, of course, Rihanna, one of the last to arrive after announcing her pregnancy earlier today.

With me now, actor, author, and host of "Bevelations" on SiriusXM, Bevy Smith. Bevy, so good to see you, my friend. Listen --

BEVY SMITH, SIRIUSXM HOST: Thank you.

COATES: First of all, you're a Harlem gal. What does this mean, this theme means to you?

SMITH: Well, this was kind of a reclamation of the movement of the Harlem Renaissance mixed in with, you know, the Reconstruction Movement, which also played a huge part in the -- the kind of development of black style. So, this was the Black Panthers meets Harlem Renaissance meets the Reconstruction meets, you know, Afrofuturism.

COATES: Wow!

SMITH: All of those -- all of those fashionable and stylish things that Black folks are known for.

COATES: You know, when you think about a theme for the Met Gala, some people will look at it and they'll be understanding immediately. Others are going, well, what does that mean? For this one, it seemed like so many people, they got it. They understood it. There were so many incredible looks tonight. Tell me, Bevy, who topped your best dressed list?

SMITH: Well, I think we have to start with Janelle Monae.

COATES: Hmm.

SMITH: First of all, she is the epitome of a dandy. She -- that's all she has ever been since she came out. She has been a dandy. And, of course, her teaming up with Tom Brown who does tailoring and soothing like no one else, was just a really perfect match.

But then you put the cherry on top with Paul Tazewell, the recent Oscar winner for costume design. You know, he did, "Wicked."

COATES: Uh-hmm.

SMITH: He collaborated with Tom Brown and with Janelle Monae on this look, which was paying homage to Afrofuturism and surrealism. So, it was a spectacular look.

COATES: There were so many people. I kept going, oh, I was getting my makeup done. Going, oh, look how I couldn't get eyeliner straight because I kept moving the hand to look at what's going on. It was beautiful to think at it. But the Met Gala is known for some pretty interesting looks.

Sometimes, they can stray from the theme.

SMITH: Yeah.

COATES: How did the stars do overall tonight? Did they get it? Did you think that everyone was where they should be?

SMITH: I think that most people really adhere to it. I was a little disappointed in some of the women for wearing gowns that were not necessarily tailored.

COATES: Hmm.

SMITH: Because there's a way to wear a gown that's tailored. But lots of -- we saw a lot of women in kind of silky, diaphanous kind of looks, which is the opposite of tailored. So, I was a little disappointed with that.

But the folks who decided to wear tailoring, they really hit the nose on the head with, you know, because also when the undercurrent of the theme is soothing, fine soothing, fine tailoring.

And so, I feel like as long as you put on a jacket and a blazer and some adornments because being a dandy also means that you're going to put it on. Right? So, you're going to have the tie, you're going to have the brooch, you're going to have the pocket watch, you're going to have, you know, fabulous shoes, you're going to have on a hat. So, the folks that really kind of said more is more, to me, really nailed it.

COATES: I mean, I saw Diana Ross out there.

SMITH: I was -- did not adhere to the -- the theme, though.

COATES: It didn't --

(CROSSTALK)

COATES: I was going to say --

SMITH: Didn't have to.

COATES: -- she can come however she wants, any day of the week, that period, end of stop.

SMITH: Exactly.

COATES: You also have the former vice president, Kamala Harris, attending tonight, and this theme -- go ahead.

SMITH: She didn't adhere to the theme either --

COATES: Hmm.

SMITH: -- which was so odd to me because she is known for her pantsuits.

COATES: Yep.

SMITH: So, this is your big opportunity to really show up and show out in an incredible pantsuit, Kamala Harris. And instead, she opted for a lovely gown, but really not on theme. Except for the fact that a lot of people did wear black and white. So, in that regard, she was kind of, like, you know, right there in the pocket. I would have loved to have seen her in a really great pantsuit.

COATES: I guess she's probably thinking, look, I wear a suit all the time, this is light work, I want to change it up. But you also -- this was announced as a theme even before when she was the vice president and the fact that this was announced prior to that. Tell me about what this theme you think really means to the state of fashion today.

SMITH: I think that it's really and beyond just fashion, just for Black, the Black community, but also for the world to see black style on display and to understand how much we have influenced fashion.

You know, one of the big themes is also the zoot suit. So that's a suit that was created by jazz musicians and that was also almost outlawed in the 1930s in Los Angeles.

So, these are, like, really important clothing, you know, moments. Then it's not just fashion. You know, dandies had to wear these clothes as armor, as survival.

I -- I posted a picture of my grandfather who was born in the 1800s. He literally found this beautiful suit. But, of course, he had no job that would require him to have on a suit. But he wore that suit because he wanted people to know that he was a man as well, and that he was somebody.

COATES: Fashion as dignity.

SMITH: Yeah.

COATES: Bevy Smith, thank you so much.

SMITH: Thank you.

COATES: And hey, everyone, thank you for watching.

[00:00:01]

"Anderson Cooper 360" is next.