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Laura Coates Live

Fight Between Iran And Israel Shows No Sign Of Slowing Down; Vance Defends Deportations, Rips Democrats in L.A. Visit; Palestinian Activist Mahmoud Khalil Released From ICE Detention; Mother Of Three Self-Deports Amid Trump's ICE Raids; Laura Coates Interviews Courtney B. Vance. Aired 11p-12a ET

Aired June 20, 2025 - 23:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[23:00:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SARA SIDNER, CNN ANCHOR AND SENIOR NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: This comes on the same day that a federal judge indefinitely blocked the Trump administration from revoking Harvard's ability to have international students attend the school while the case has worked their way through the courts.

And that does it for myself and for the crew. Thank you so much for watching "NewsNight." We will see you tomorrow morning at 10 a.m. with our conversation show "Table for Five." "Laura Coates Live" starts right now.

UNKNOWN (voice-over): This is CNN Breaking News.

LAURA COATES, CNN HOST AND SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Good evening. I'm Laura Coates. We begin with the breaking news tonight. New attacks between Israel and Iran. This was the sky over Tel Aviv a short time ago. Those are Israeli interceptors hitting Iranian projectiles. The fighting is showing no signs of slowing down.

Even as President Trump's two-week deadline on whether to strike Iran keeps ticking down. Iran insists that he has the power to end the conflict with one call. An Iranian official tells CNN, Trump could kickstart diplomacy if he got the Israelis to stop attacking. But the president says, tall order.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: Well, I think it's very hard to make that request right now. If somebody is winning, it's a little bit harder to do than if somebody is losing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: Trump is also spelling out what that two-week window really means.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: I'm giving them a period of time, and I would say two weeks would be the maximum.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: The maximum? Meaning it could happen before two weeks is up. Other world powers, well, they aren't waiting around. Representatives from Europe and Iran held talks in Switzerland. It didn't lead to any breakthrough, though. And Trump is revealing what he really thinks about Europe's role.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: Iran doesn't want to speak to Europe. They want to -- they want to speak to us. Europe is not going to be able to help in this.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: But even if diplomacy fails, Trump is signaling what he has zero appetite for.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNKNOWN (voice-over): Is an aerial campaign in Iran enough, or do you need ground forces?

TRUMP: Well, I'm not going to talk about ground forces. The last thing you want to do is ground forces.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: Now, with that in mind, Trump was asked what's different about the intelligence with Iran now compared to what the U.S. relied on when it went into Iraq in 2003.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: Well, there were no weapons of mass destruction. I never thought there were.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: Well, tonight, the intelligence on Iran is also being debated. And for the second time this week, Trump was once again asked about the mixed message from his own spy chief.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNKNOWN (voice-over): What intelligence do you have that Iran is building a nuclear weapon? Your intelligence community has said they no evidence that they are at this point.

TRUMP: Then my intelligence community is wrong. Who in the intelligence community said that?

UNKNOWN (voice-over): Your director of National Intelligence, Tulsi Gabbard.

TRUMP: She's wrong.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: Well, Gabbard is now addressing the issue herself. Now, she claims the media is twist -- twisting her words and that she's actually in lockstep with Trump. She says America has intelligence that Iran is at the point that it can produce a nuclear weapon within weeks to months if they decide to finalize the assembly. Now, a reminder, here's what she said to Congress back in March.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TULSI GABBARD, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL INTELLIGENCE: The I.C. continues to assess that Iran is not building a nuclear weapon, and Supreme Leader Khamenei has not authorized the nuclear weapons program that he suspended in 2003.

In the past year, we've seen an erosion of a decades-long taboo in Iran on discussing nuclear weapons in public, likely emboldening nuclear weapons advocates within Iran's decision-making apparatus. Iran's enriched uranium stockpile is at its highest levels and is unprecedented for a state without nuclear weapons.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: Let's start with CNN senior politics reporter who -- excuse me -- with senior politics reporter who is covering the Trump White House for Axios, Marc Caputo, which will indicate you'd be here with us as well.

Marc, let me ask you. I want to get to that Gabbard dispute in just a moment. But first, I want to ask you about that two-week timeline. So, what is your read on how President Trump is even thinking about this decision?

MARC CAPUTO, SENIOR POLITICS REPORTER, AXIOS: What he's pretty clear on how he's thinking about it, which is not very clear. To begin with, you know, when you say in a phrase, oh, I'll get to you in a minute, it was not 60 seconds.

COATES: Hmm.

CAPUTO: Just imagine Donald Trump thinks that with two weeks. Two weeks means he's going to do it later. And just how later it is, who knows? He said it with tariffs. He does 60 days. He does 90-day pauses. He does pauses and delays and kind of pushes things off, and he uses these different terms sort of figuratively and not literally. I know there are some people who hate that sort of answer, but that's just how he is.

COATES: Well, you know that Trump and the dynamics between him and his Cabinet as -- as well as anyone, Marc, and I -- I'm wondering what is his relationship like with the DNI, Tulsi Gabbard, at this moment.

[23:05:04]

Because there is a discrepancy here. And it's not a figure of speech when he says that she's wrong. Does he trust her?

CAPUTO: I believe he does. Notably, when he has been twice asked about it, the context, when you're talking to Trump and he's sort of annoyed, especially the first time he's asked about this, he can sometimes give answers that might make it seem he's annoyed at the subject rather than at the questioner. So, you kind of have to put that in context. It's a little difficult to explain in a short period of time in a T.V. interview.

COATES: Well --

CAPUTO: Notably, he's not being asked to follow up, which is --

COATES: Right.

CAPUTO: -- do you have trust in your DNI chief? And the answer to that, I've been told by the most senior levels of the White House, is yes.

COATES: Do you buy what Gabbard is suggesting if the media is twisting her words and that she actually is in lockstep with Trump?

CAPUTO: I think she's more in lockstep with Trump now. It is true that that was said back in March. There is a discrepancy to a degree between what you saw then and what you see now. But things have also changed since then.

And the intelligence is different. Now, understand there's two ways to look at intelligence. One, intelligence is little bits and scraps of information. Two, intelligence is an assessment.

What she was giving there was the perception of all of the different intelligence agencies assessed together. What the president is relying on now is the intelligence assessment largely of the CIA. And to a degree, the Israeli intelligence services, they're about 80% in lockstep. So, it's one of those things that's sort of nuanced.

But in the end, Tulsi Gabbard has been in all of -- or most of, not all -- the high-level meetings about this, I'm told. She solicits or better said the president solicits her opinion, she gives it, he trusts her advice, and she's not going anywhere anytime soon.

Of course, famous last words for a reporter to say that based on what Trump officials have told him, but that's what I'm being told by a number of people who in the past have been very accurate about such things.

COATES: Well, that's the accurate statement as of right now. We'll see how that if it all impacts. You know, Trump, he has always insisted that he wants to be a pea -- a peacemaker. And I'm -- I'm curious from your perspective.

Do you think that all of the outside noise from the MAGA crowd who are opposing any intervention and this idea that there is the 'America first' philosophy that might be betrayed if the U.S. gets involved, is the MAGA crowd who are opposing the intervention, is that starting to weigh on President Trump?

CAPUTO: I think it is to a degree. Understand that Donald Trump has sort of a Jekyll & Hyde personality. It's on one hand, he's known for not having a lot of impulse control. On the other hand, he's known for having analysis paralysis.

And initially, once he saw the great success that Israel was having militarily, he wanted to really be in the slipstream, from what we understand, of the Israeli tailwinds. But the thing about being in a slipstream of tailwinds of another is that you can sometimes encounter turbulence that you didn't expect.

And as this has progressed, Donald Trump is calling people, lots of people, advisers, associates, asking opinions, and he's getting a lot of feedback.

One of the things we reported at Axios, one of the things that Donald Trump is particularly interested in, if we wind up the United States participating in military action and using these large bunker- busting bombs massive ordinance, will it work? Will it actually make a difference?

What he doesn't want is a military strike to happen for American lives to be lost, American equipment to be lost or for it to be feckless. He wants it to make a difference.

And what's interesting about that interview on the tarmac, the snippets you played there, is that one of the reasons Donald Trump is willing, at least for the time being, to wait longer is he still sees Israel is winning.

And so, if Israel is winning in Donald Trump's mind, and he doesn't really have to commit any forces and he can rattle some sabers and keep the lines of negotiation open --

COATES: Uh-hmm.

CAPUTO: -- well, he's going to do that. Now, tomorrow, he's got a meeting with his advisers at six. Who knows what's going to happen tonight?

COATES: Right.

CAPUTO: But, so far, yes, the answer is those opinions of all those different people are weighing on him, and his own sort of suspicion at charging into war is also coming into play, and that's why you're not seeing him green light an attack on Iran, at least not yet.

COATES: Marc Caputo, thank you for your insight tonight.

CAPUTO: Thank you.

COATES: With me now, former top nuclear adviser for President Barack Obama, Gary Samore, also CNN senior political commentator, former Republican congressman, Adam Kinzinger, and retired Army Major General Randy Manner, who once had an agency responsible for helping monitor nuclear weapons in Iran. Welcome to all of you.

[23:09:56]

Congressman King -- Kinzinger -- excuse me -- let me begin with you because after two very public rebukes by the president, we're, of course, thinking about, this this rift between Trump and Gabbard, is it just noise or is there a real concern given the enormous stakes that we're in right now?

ADAM KINZINGER, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, FORMER ILLINOIS REPRESENTATIVE: Yeah. No, it's not just noise. I mean, look, whenever Donald Trump, you know, throws one of his people under the bus, it's usually not going to be long until you start hearing the stories about how they've been pushed out or -- or thrown under the bus or fired or whatever.

So, this is a -- this is a pretty big deal. I mean, if I was Tulsi Gabbard, I'd pretty be -- I'd be pretty upset about it. But I think, you know, what this is showing is Donald Trump is -- I think Marc said analysis paralysis. I mean, this two-week thing, I -- I don't think he can make decision.

And I think he's waiting. He's hoping Israel does it. He's hoping he can come in and take credit. But the bottom line is, you know, I think we -- we've gone down the road where this nuclear program can't exist. And the question is, how do we get there?

COATES: General Manner, let me bring you into this conversation because, of course, President Trump says it would be hard to ask Israel to stop the strikes. Is there a scenario where the ongoing attacks in their current form actually might lead to a diplomatic solution?

MAJ. GEN. RANDY MANNER, RETIRED MAJOR GENERAL, U.S. ARMY: Every time that you use military force, you actually are trying to get people to the negotiating table. A military strike will only set back the -- the nuclear program in Iran.

I think it's important for all the listeners to understand that it could be six months, it could be a year or two at most for military strike.

The most effective way is to have a negotiated approach to this so they can -- so we can have transparency to be able to be on the ground to ensure that Iran never has a nuclear weapon.

So, again, any military strike on this, whether it's the Israelis or whether it was the U.S., would only be a temporary halt to their program, in my opinion.

COATES: You know, Gary, President Trump, he has been downplaying the European diplomatic efforts with Iran, saying Europe is not going to be able to help on this one. Is he right in suggesting that Europe is irrelevant in this discussion or do they indeed have a role?

GARY SAMORE, FORMER TOP NUCLEAR ADVISER FOR PRESIDENT OBAMA: Well, I think the Europeans are making an effort, and they certainly share with the United States a desire to come to an agreement that avoids the need for military force.

But in this case, it's really a U.S.-Iranian agreement that will avoid war if it's possible. And I do think Trump genuinely would like to come to an agreement that would eliminate Iran's enrichment program without the need for force.

The problem is that the U.S. and Iran are so far apart on this central issue with the Iranians insisting that they're going to preserve their enrichment program. They're not willing to give it up.

So, I'm not very optimistic that a deal is possible in the next two weeks. Maybe some kind of interim agreement that could extend the time for negotiations, but a comprehensive agreement, I think it's going to be very hard to achieve in two weeks.

COATES: Well, congressman, to that point, I mean, an Iranian source is telling CNN that ending its uranium enrichment capability is indeed a bold red line. So, if the Iranians do not change their posture, say, in the next two weeks, do you take that timeline from President Trump then seriously that that is a hard deadline?

KINZINGER: Well, let me caveat it with this. They don't call him taco for no reason. Okay? So that does come into play here. Is he going to back out? Is he really just trying to bluff? Does he not know what he wants to do?

But, look, I mean, the reality is the United States, for 60 days in this new timeline, tried to negotiate with Iran. We made it clear what our bottom line was. And Iran stalled.

They've been -- they've been sitting here at 60% enrichment. They can jump to 90% weapons-grade in a very short amount of time, so they are very close to a nuclear weapon if they decide to. They've killed 400 Americans in Iraq and more. They've exported terror throughout the Middle East. So, I think it's very safe to say that if they get a nuclear program, that's going to be destabilizing.

And so, we gave them 60 days. Now, we're under an attack. We've made it clear, and Israel has made it clear to Iran, look, you lost your chance to have an enrichment program, not choose to get it destroyed or to come to the table and probably have economic incentives to fix it. That would be to Iran's interest. Unfortunately for them, they don't get a choice here.

COATES: Speaking of those destruction plans and the possibility of whether it would be successful, I mean, reporting general -- reporting just a successful attack on Fordow would not be as simple as, say, dropping a bunker buster bomb, a weapon that you're very familiar with. How complicated would this actually be?

[23:15:00]

MANNER: It is actually rather complicated. It would not be one and done. You just don't drop one weapon on this, and then it would get down that far. It would be a series of strikes, perhaps all done at one sortie, but at the same time, it would be multiple -- multiple efforts.

At the same time that this particular effort will be taking off -- be taken on, we have to remember that the president has to ensure that our three major bases in the region, in Qatar, Kuwait, and -- oh, I apologize for the third location -- have to be safeguarded, and they're obviously susceptible to massive drone strikes.

So, he wants to make sure that there are sufficient air defense capabilities in the area because Iran certainly would strike our own facilities. So, I think it's -- it's important for us to understand that as well. He needs two weeks to get all of this done.

COATES: Really important, of course. And if the military is indeed going to be active, they can't wait until that two-week mark to prepare in some way.

But Gary, no matter what happens, there's going to be questions about the intelligence suggesting that Iran is as close as ever to building a nuclear bomb. What is your assessment, Gary, of how close they actually might be?

SAMORE: Well, there are two parts of that answer. The first part is the production of raw material, which is weapons-grade 90% enriched uranium. There's no question that Iran is very close to being able to produce within a few weeks enough highly-enriched uranium for a couple of nuclear weapons.

COATES: Hmm.

SAMORE: The more difficult, the second piece, which is much more difficult to answer, is, how quickly could they weaponize that? How quickly could they take that raw material and produce a nuclear device? I think it's very hard to answer that question with precision, but probably it's a matter of months, maybe longer for a ballistic missile warhead.

But as of now, the U.S. Intelligence Community says that Iran hasn't made a political decision to produce nuclear weapons. And the issue for us and for the Israelis is how quickly would we know that Iran has made that political decision, especially in the middle of a war.

The IAEA inspectors are not getting access to Fordow. At least, it's not publicly known. And so, we don't really know what's going on inside that facility. Are the Iranians going to take advantage of this two-week window to begin producing weapons-grade uranium? I'm hoping that the international inspectors will get in so that we have some sense of what's going on inside Fordow.

The other facilities, the key nuclear facilities, have all been taken offline by the Israelis. So, the focus really has to be in Fordow in terms of Iran's current nuclear weapons options.

COATES: Gentlemen, thank you so much, all of you. Up next, it's a visit that might have shades of 2028. Vice President J.D. Vance going to Gavin Newsom's California to defend the sweeping ICE raids taking place all across the state. And along the way, he has taken some shots at Democrats. I'll explain next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[23:20:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COATES: Tonight, Vice President J.D. Vance taking a trip out west to L.A. He is visiting the federal building targeted by anti-ICE protesters last week and defending the Trump administration's crackdown even if some people have been wrongfully caught up in it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

J.D. VANCE, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: I don't think that we've been too aggressive at all. I mean, first of all, any time that a mistake has been made, we correct that mistake very quickly.

But the unfortunate reality is that Joe Biden led in 15 to 20 million illegal aliens into this country, and there is no way for us to actually get those unlawful, illegal immigrants out of the United States of America without some serious law enforcement.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: You know, many Americans don't like what they're seeing. Forty-nine percent of people in a new poll say that Trump's deportation efforts have gone too far.

Here to talk about it are Republican strategist Lance Trover and former congressman and director of "The Social Contract," Joe Walsh.

Let me begin with you here, Lance. It's good to see both of you. First of all, on the optics. Are the optics of Trump's tough immigration enforcement, are -- are those causing him to lose the political battle on this issue or is it helping him?

LANCE TROVER, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: No. I'll -- I'll put on my Republican strategist hat here and say --

COATES: Uh-hmm.

TROVER: -- Donald Trump and the Republicans are going to win this in the long term, both politically and I think -- I think historically speaking. And you put up a poll number there, 49-40. I would expect -- look, he's making some big, tough, bold decisions. I would expect his numbers to oscillate. I think they will go up and down.

Look, the American public can be a little finicky from time to time. I don't think any -- that's -- that's not a surprise. But the two numbers, if we're talking polling that have remained consistent for months on end, are that, one, the American public wants this issue addressed, and number two, they know that Donald Trump has a plan to address it, and Democrats do not have a plan to address it. That has been consistent for months on end.

And it's nothing -- the evidence is straightforward. I mean, Donald Trump is taking an action every day to put these criminal illegals in jail, and Democrats are running around trying to get arrested by opposing.

COATES: That is the argument, that they're making a political, you know, stunts as a part of a tactic. Of course, they will say this is not a stunt, that they have been arrested because they're actually on scene doing the work of legislation and -- and finding it important.

But what do you say to this, Joe, in terms of the tactics being used by the Trump administration?

[23:25:01]

Are they enough? I mean, going to workplaces, etcetera. The idea that they did not focus on the criminals first, as he talked about. What should Democrats be doing in response?

JOE WALSH, FORMER ILLINOIS REPRESENTATIVE: This isn't who we are. That's what Democrats should be saying.

COATES: Is that enough?

WALSH: Oh, God. Yeah. Lance is right in that the American people wanted people in this country illegally who are violent criminals gone. The Trump administration is going into Home Depot parking lots and 7-11 parking lots and daycare centers and camping out outside of Dodger Stadium.

The American people don't want that. Something like 85% of the people getting detained don't have any criminal records. And now, we've got -- Laura, we've got farmers, we've got peach farmers down in Texas, dairy farmers in Texas, onion growers in Idaho, who can't have -- who don't have workers anymore. So, Americans are going to begin to feel the economic impact of this.

TROVER: The Trump administration will dispute that. They say 75% of the people who so far have been deported have either criminal records or facing, you know, prosecution. So --

WALSH: They can dispute that, but the -- the numbers look pretty clear that the vast -- there aren't enough -- there aren't enough violent criminals in here illegally to deport the numbers that Trump wants to deport, which is why they're going to Home Depot parking lots and day care centers and courthouses.

COATES: Well, the president is saying again that there could be some reprieve, thinking of who he's targeting, a reprieve for farmers who hire undocumented immigrants. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) TRUMP: We can't put the farms out of business. And at the same time, we don't want to hurt people that aren't criminals. But I never want to hurt our farmers. Our farmers are great people. They keep us happy and healthy and fat.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: Can you have it both ways?

TROVER: Well, I think he also mentioned on the tarmac today something, that they're looking at some paths to where -- you know, if you're a farmer and you're employ -- I mean, you're going to have to take some responsibility for the people you're hiring.

But I know this from a -- I mean, I've seen my family. There is a pathway to hiring temporary workers from other countries. My family is tomato farmers in Southern Illinois. I -- they follow the law and have brought people in from Mexico for years. I've seen it happen. That's what -- that is what needs to happen.

But, again, I go back to where the American public has been consistently on this issue, and that is they want this addressed. They want criminal illegals out of this country. They want these illegals, the 10 or 12 million that we know, that came in the last couple years gone.

COATES: Let me ask --

WALSH: They want criminal illegals out. But there aren't 10 to 12 million of those.

COATES: Well, let's talk about Vice President J.D. Vance, who was also asked about elected Democrats, to your point, protesting immigration actions. He called out California Senator Alex Padilla, but here Jose Padilla. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

VANCE: Well, I was hoping Jose Padilla would be here to ask a question. But, unfortunately, I guess he decided not to show up because there wasn't a theater. And that's all it is. You know, I think everybody realizes that's what this is. It's pure political theater. These guys show up. They want to be captured on camera doing something.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: Again, he's a senator. His first name is Alex. He was a senator. I understand you probably knew him as well.

WALSH: He said that on purpose.

COATES: Of course. So, what's your reaction to him saying that? You think it's on purpose. And -- and how about his notion or claim that these are political stunts? WALSH: He's -- this is really important. The vice president of the United States purposely gave the wrong name. Purposely. Why? Because it's a cruel thing to do, it's a bigoted thing to do, it's -- it's a dehumanizing thing to do, and J.D. Vance knows that that sells with his base.

Vance's spokesperson said later, we -- we confused him with another Jose Padilla, an American citizen who was working with Al Qaeda in '06. What a crappy thing to do.

But, again, this reflects their mentality, and I don't think the American people appreciate that.

COATES: Was it intentional, Lance?

(LAUGHTER)

TROVER: Maybe. Now, it's a good old-fashioned troll, I guess. I don't know. Whether it's a joke or it's not a joke, but the joke -- I mean, yeah, a sitting -- let's -- let's recap what happened.

A sitting United States senator burst into the department -- the secretary of Homeland Security's press conference, starts speaking over her, and when law enforcement who does not recognize him tries to remove him, he forcefully tries to inject himself back and resist them.

Look, it is part of a playbook. We saw it this week in New York with the comptroller. This is part of a Democratic playbook, which is have a camera ready, get ready, go in, impede ICE, assault ICE, and do all this other stuff, get resist arrest, be arrested, and then throw it up on -- on the media, social media, and have the outrage machine kick into high gear.

COATES: It could also --

TROVER: That's exactly what's happening.

COATES: Well, Lance, Joe, it could also be that these politicians are outraged and on the scene. But we'll see how it all plays out for the voters. Thank you both so much.

Still ahead tonight, he was the administration's main target in the crackdown on America's college campuses, jailed for months, at the risk of deportation as well.

[23:30:00]

But tonight, Palestinian activist Mahmoud Khalil is out on bail. So, what's his message? And can he actually win the legal fight ahead of him? I'll ask his attorney about that next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COATES: One of the highest profile targets of Trump's crackdown on college campuses has been released tonight after 104 days in detention.

[23:35:01]

A ruling from a federal judge today ordering Mahmoud Khalil to be released on bail while charges were still pending. The judge saying -- quote -- "He is not a danger to the community." Period. Full stop. Khalil's lawyers argued that he was targeted for his pro-Palestinian views. And tonight, Khalil continued to take aim with the administration's policies.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MAHMOUD KHALIL, PRO-PALESTINIAN ACTIVIST: No one is illegal. No human is illegal. That's the message. The message is justice will prevail no matter what this administration may try to portray, portraying the immigrants are criminals or any of that, trying to do all of this now. This simply is not true, and just to keep the fight against this administration.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: Well, tonight, the White House is responding, telling Reuters -- quote -- "There is no basis for a local federal judge in New Jersey -- who lacks jurisdiction -- to order Khalil's release from a detention facility in Louisiana. We expect to be vindicated on appeal."

Joining me now, one of Mahmoud Khalil's attorneys, Johnny Sinodis. Johnny, welcome. How is Mahmood doing tonight now that he has been released after 104 days in detention?

JOHNNY SINODIS, ATTORNEY FOR MAHMOUD KHALIL: Mahmoud is doing well. He is, you know, grateful to be reunited with his wife and his young son for the first time since his son's birth. And he is ready to see his case through because he understands that he has just been made an example of, and it's incumbent upon him and the rest of the legal team and the folks in the United States who stand for justice to continue the struggle.

COATES: What about this argument that's being raised by the Department of Homeland Security? They're arguing that the judge had no authority to order Mahmoud's release and that they expect a higher court to then overturn this decision. What do you expect will happen when this case moves forward?

SINODIS: I expect to hear no different from the Department of Homeland Security. They've made this same argument in every other case where a student activist has been unlawfully arrested and then ordered released by a district judge. And they've lost each time. And so, I expect them to lose that same argument again at the third circuit.

COATES: You had a different judge in Louisiana today denying Mahmoud's release for asylum, knowing that he can be deported based on the allegation that he lied on his green card application. This complicate his case? Is there any weight on this?

SINODIS: Well, I would say, you know, that immigration judge is an employee of the Department of Justice. Right? She has marching orders.

And so, despite all the evidence in front of her, despite Mahmoud's uncontroverted testimony that he committed no misrepresentation, no fraud, and despite the government not asking any cross-examination questions of him or even arguing in their closing statement that he had committed a misrepresentation, this is a foregone conclusion.

She was told by her supervisors to write that opinion, and she did. I'm confident that on appeal, we will prevail.

COATES: You heard Mahmoud take aim at the administration's policies after he was released. Do you expect him to continue speaking out or is there going to be some reluctance to do so until all of this concludes?

SINODIS: I'll let Mahmoud speak for himself on that. I think that Mahmoud has always held a powerful voice and one that people are moved by. And it's for that reason that the administration targeted him in the first place.

And so, in the coming days, Mahmoud will make his own decisions. And I know that he's got strongly held beliefs, those that are just, and he will have the opportunity to speak when and if he would like.

COATES: Johnny Sinodis, thank you so much for joining.

SINODIS: Thank you for having me.

COATES: We brought you story after story of people getting caught up in the deportation dragnet. But what about the people who have chosen to self-deport?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNKNOWN: Come with me to self-deport my mom after being in this country for 36 years.

COATES (voice-over): The daughter who documented that very emotional journey joins me next.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[23:40:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COATES: The Trump administration's immigration crackdown has come in the form of raids, come in the form of arrests, and bitter court battles. But the Trump team is also trying to send this message to undocumented immigrants: Self-deport yourself if you ever want to come back.

It is a subject of a multimillion-dollar ad campaign that's being spearheaded by DHS Secretary Kristi Noem. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. KRISTI NOEM (R-SD): Leave now. If you don't, we will find you, and we will deport you. You will never return. If you leave now, you may have an opportunity to return and enjoy our freedom and live the American dream.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: My next guest's mother made the difficult decision to do just that. She decided to share what that journey was like in a now viral TikTok video viewed by millions.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JULIE EAR, MOM SELF-DEPORTED TO MEXICO: Come with me to self-deport my mom after being in this country for 36 years. My mom is leaving behind three grown up kids and three grandchildren. We are doing this all while some of the biggest ICE raids are going on back home. With my mom's complicated legal status, she decided to do this in her own terms. She has no criminal record, a hardworking taxpayer who has been working 12-hour shifts since she was 15, six days out of the week.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[23:45:04]

COATES: Joining me now, her daughter, Julie Ear. Julie, thank you for joining. We've all been following the journey that you have on TikTok. And I have to ask you what this must be like. I mean, it's a very difficult decision to leave one's family in any capacity. But here, as you say, she has called this place home for 36 years. Why did she make this decision?

EAR: Honestly, she was scared to be detained. She was scared to be stopped even while she was driving, while she was at work.

COATES: Hmm.

EAR: So, she knew that this was an option for her because they told her that they were targeting people that were paying taxes. So that's when she really made the decision to really look into going back to Mexico.

COATES: Julie, I'm so glad you mentioned that because there are so many misconceptions about what it's like to be an undocumented person in America. She -- fully employed, paying taxes throughout her life as well. Knowing that that is what the experience was like, what do you want people to understand about being an immigrant in this country?

EAR: Being an immigrant in this country is about looking for a better life. When people come to this country, they want to work, they want to contribute to the economy, they want just a better life not just for themselves but for their family.

And they're not looking for a handout. They're not looking to take from anybody or commit any crimes. My mom is not a criminal. This was a -- this is a civil offense. And people are starting to make it seem like she made the worst crime, and she's not.

COATES: Hmm.

EAR: She's just -- her biggest crime was her wanting to come and work. And it -- I just want to make sure that people know that, you know, she came here. She's more American than any -- she's -- than me, probably. She has been here longer than I've been alive.

COATES: Julie, what has this been like for you? I mean, it must be really difficult to watch this unfold.

EAR: It has been hard. It has been overwhelming.

COATES: Uh-hmm.

EAR: Leading up to the -- to the -- to the whole thing, it has just been kind of -- it was kind of hard. And, you know, I didn't believe it until we were actually crossing the border. But, even now, after I made that video, we wanted to make sure that she was home safe because she was actually scared that we were going to get stopped in the border even after we crossed the TJ border.

COATES: Hmm.

EAR: She thought that we were either -- she was either going to be questioned or -- for whatever reason in the airport, which was -- which is honestly like a crazy thing to think about, to think that you're going back to your country and you're going to be detained and, like, questioned. But now, it's just kind of just -- just grieving.

COATES: I can only imagine. I mean, just thinking about this being a very personal matter, but yet symbolic of what's happening to so many people across this country. And, you know, I wonder how she's feeling about her decision now that she has left. She has self-deported. Is she intending at some point to try to return?

EAR: Right now, she's saying that she made the right decision for her. She does not regret anything. And, obviously, she would love to be back with us, to be, you know, at a driving distance from us.

COATES: Yeah.

EAR: But right now, she knows that with the circumstances, that's not possible any time soon.

COATES: Julia Ear, thank you so much.

EAR: Thank you for having me.

COATES: Up next, he's an actor on the screen and a student of history, Offit. My conversation with Courtney B. Vance tonight on his new project, those book bans, and the president's crackdown in Los Angeles.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

COURTNEY B. VANCE, ACTOR: People still give them the right to go out and voice their opinion. And if you do that, people will respect you because you've respected them. But if you disrespect them, that's what you get.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

UNKNOWN (voice-over): This is CNN, the world's news network.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[23:50:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

VANCE (voice-over): From an Olympus of scholarship and opinion, he waived his pen and, as he wrote later, attempted 'to explain, expound and exhort; to see, foresee and prophesy, to the few who could or would listen.'

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: That's the voice of actor Courtney B. Vance, bringing to life an acclaimed biography about civil rights leader W.E.B. Du Bois. The audiobook version of W.E.B. Du Bois, "Biography of a Race," was just released this week.

And I sat down with Emmy and Tony award-winning actor Courtney B. Vance about his new role.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

I'm thrilled to have you and also to know that you are going to be the voice behind this incredible work. And it's one of those books that has been published, what, more than 30 years ago. Everyone should have it on their shelf and read it. And here we are for the first time having an audio version. What drew you to it?

VANCE: I, like everyone, has it on my shelf --

COATES: Uh-hmm.

VANCE: -- for the last 30 years, and was -- I was raised -- my mother was a librarian for 30 years. I was raised in the library. And I had -- I had the book. And so, my mother did audio -- audiobook tapes --

COATES: Hmm.

VANCE: -- and would bring them home and listen to them, tape them and send them back. And so, she had this huge library.

COATES: Uh-hmm. VANCE: And so, I grew up listening to books. So, when I actually had the time -- and I love big biographies. Ron Chernow is my favorite biographer. So, I read all his -- all his books in 900 pages.

COATES: Why are you so drawn to them?

VANCE: Because you can -- when you read the biography, you know -- you not only learn about the person, but you learn about the time period.

COATES: Hmm.

[23:55:01]

VANCE: And if you read, you know, David Blight, Frederick Douglass, Chernow, Grant, Walter Isaacson, Steve Jobs, the -- the -- the time periods overlap. So, I can see the 19 -- early 1900s from Frederick Douglass's point of view. I can see them from -- you know, from other people, Hamilton, you know.

So, I learned about the people in the time period. And because of that, my -- you know, when -- I can -- I can -- these times that we're in now --

COATES: Uh-hmm.

VANCE: -- you recognize that people don't change.

COATES: So, what is it -- how does it make you feel to know that, in some respects, this is all very cyclical, the ideas? Does it make you feel pessimistic or optimistic about where we are?

VANCE: If he can do it back when everywhere he looked was a no, today, when everywhere -- you can do your own thing, you can create, you can say you may not -- I mean, we're seeing today someone who was the mayoral candidate was -- was carted off.

You know, the -- the -- the -- you know, when we say we -- you know, we hear that phrase, make America great again. What does that mean? We know what that means.

And so, we're -- we're -- this book, for me, allows folks to -- a person that was W.E.B. Du Bois who was, you know, in the -- back in my parents' generation, people had a picture of Jesus and Martin Luther King above their mantelpiece. Back in my parents' parents' generation, they had a picture of Jesus and W.E.B. Du Bois above their mantelpiece. That's who he was.

COATES: Well, let's talk about some of the madness more broadly. At a time when you are allowing through your voice to uplift the voice of the journey of W.E.B --

VANCE: Hmm.

COATES: -- you also have book banning that seems to be replacing this desire for everyone to have access to all of the library of the world. Can you just give me that -- your vision of that split screen? On the one hand, how you are relying and invested in trying to get these stories out there and have the voice out, and then have people try to silence voices because it doesn't fit into whatever their concept of education ought to be.

VANCE: You can't stop people from reading a book.

COATES: They're fine.

VANCE: You can ban it all you want to, but they -- people -- I just tells people, I got to read it.

COATES: You think it makes it more enticing?

VANCE: Of course, it does. Just like you tell a child, don't eat that cake, they're going to eat the cake, they're going to eat it all. If you say, oh, that cake is no good, okay. So, you know, the -- the psychology is stupidity.

COATES: Hmm.

VANCE: That you just make people -- you make young people want to read the -- I mean, it's -- it's -- it's simple. Tell somebody not to do something, they're going to do it. I mean, so, you can ban the book in school, but you -- they can go on Amazon or wherever and find -- they can get the book.

COATES: Uh-hmm.

VANCE: You -- you can't make people not -- I mean, it's silly.

COATES: As you know, the streets in L.A. and some cities across the country, they have had the presence of protesters, but also the presence of the National Guard. And I know you have -- when you were a child, you saw tanks in your hometown of Detroit.

VANCE: Uh-hmm.

COATES: For somebody who is a student of history --

VANCE: Hmm.

COATES: -- and an observer of the present, how are you reconciling that we are back here?

VANCE: If you don't take care of people, if you -- if you -- if you take away their rights, their ability to earn, if you -- you know, things you -- you can't just all of a sudden say, okay, one minute you can't, next minute you can, and expect people to go, okay.

COATES: Hmm.

VANCE: You know, that's -- the people's right is to protest, peacefully protest. And how you deal with peaceful protest, it determines what kind of -- what kind of system of government you have. I mean, that's what MLK was about. Let them do their worst, and we -- so -- I mean -- but that, being a student history, that's when you see, when you know what he wants you to do. Don't do what he wants you to do, knowing that he's probably going to send.

COATES: It's a history of reverse psychology.

VANCE: Yes.

COATES: And it also requires -- everyone you've named have been learning historians themselves about the way the system began, functions, and can come undone. Your voice is important figuratively and literally. Thank you so much.

VANCE: You're the best.

COATES: Good to have you.

(LAUGHTER)

[00:00:00]

VANCE: If I had known, I would've wore green.

COATES: Courtney B. Vance, everyone. Thank you.

VANCE: Thank you.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COATES: Thank you for watching. Omar Jimenez picks up CNN's breaking news now.