Return to Transcripts main page

Laura Coates Live

Judge Rules Against Trump's Immigration Raids; FBI's No. 2 Weighs Quitting Over Epstein Files; FBI Uses Polygraphs To Test Officials' Loyalty; Laura Coates Interviews Christine Brennan. Aired 11p-12a ET

Aired July 11, 2025 - 23:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[23:00:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LAURA COATES, CNN HOST AND SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Breaking tonight, a judge delivers a blow to Trump's immigration raids in California with a ruling that stops some of the most controversial tactics.

Also, ahead, the dramatic turn in the MAGA meltdown over Jeffrey Epstein. The FBI's number two reportedly furious and considering quitting. Can Trump weather the storm?

Plus, polygraphs inside the FBI. A former agent who resigned speaking out. Tonight on "Laura Coates Live."

We start with the breaking news here tonight. A judge temporarily halting indiscriminate immigration raids and arrests in L.A., saying the government is performing stops without reasonable suspicion and denying access to lawyers. This is a legal victory for immigration advocates and it could stall President Trump's mass deportation plans all across this country.

Now, a Biden-appointed judge ruling -- quote -- "The court finds that the broader public may also be in fear of having their constitutional rights violated by seizures without reasonable suspicion, especially in light of the ongoing reports of stops and arrests."

The judge banning stops based on someone's apparent race or ethnicity, speaking Spanish or English with an accent, a presence at a particular location, or someone's type of work.

This ruling comes just a day after the violent clashes between immigration agents and protesters at two different farms just northwest of L.A. Homeland Security says they detained some 200 undocumented immigrants after executing search warrants.

Joining me now, California Democratic Congressman Eric Swalwell, who sits on the Homeland Security Committee. Good evening, congressman. Let's jump right in because I'm curious --

REP. ERIC SWALWELL (D-CA): Good evening.

COATES: -- about your reaction to this ruling that is temporarily now halting immigration raids in L.A. What is your reaction?

SWALWELL: Well, it rightfully does so, Laura. In this case, the court aggressively knocks out what they call roving patrols. It cites a number of different individuals. One of them is Jorge Viramontes (ph) as well as Jason Gavidia (ph), both who work at a car wash, both who are U.S. citizens, and both who are harassed multiple times.

And the court goes as far to say that you can't just come up to people and detain them based on how they look or the location that they're at. As Tom Homan tried to justify on another network today, it says you have to follow the Fourth Amendment. And the Fourth Amendment, these two were U.S. citizens, applies not only to U.S. citizens, it applies to anyone in the United States.

COATES: You know, congressman, on that point, you're describing racial profiling, which is what the Fourth Amendment is trying to guard against. Right?

SWALWELL: Right. Exactly.

COATES: But the border czar, Tom Homan, as you mentioned, he defended his agents earlier today. That happened before the ruling. Listen to what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TOM HOMAN, BORDER CZAR: The people need to understand, officers and board of trustees, they don't need probable cause to walk up to somebody, briefly detain them, and question them. They just need to tally the circumstances, right? They just got through the observation, you know, get articulable facts based on the location, the occupation, their physical appearance. Every agent, every six months, gets Fourth Amendment training over and over again. These officers are really good at what they do.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: So, he's saying that they're trained for the Fourth Amendment, obviously, which protects against unreasonable search and seizures. One can be trained on something and still violated, though. Correct?

SWALWELL: The actions of ICE agents across America do not reflect whatever training that Homan is suggesting that they have. And the approach that attorneys general have to take and even district attorneys and state's attorneys across the country is they have their own law enforcement powers, and we can't have the most vulnerable in our community on their heels.

If you can charge officers with false imprisonment, assault, battery, and it meets the facts of each case, meet the law, you have to do that.

[23:05:00]

You can't just let the most vulnerable people in our community be profiled because of their last names. And, by the way, Laura, a six-year-old battling cancer was arrested. A 71-year-old woman named Barbara Stone (ph), a grandmother, was arrested by ICE agents. And the one thing they have in common? They're both American citizens. So, they're not even getting it right.

COATES: Truly there's got to be a balance struck. Obviously, I know you would support there to be some lawful measures to understand who could pose the type of threat that the Fourth Amendment would not have a problem with.

But on that basis, I mean, this ruling comes a day, a day after those chaotic raids in your state of California just yesterday. You know that ICE agents arrested hundreds of people. Several protesters were injured. A congressional Democrat called the raids -- quote -- "overkill."

But then you had Homeland Security saying that one person fired a gun at officers and it appears you can see that in the video, it seems. So, he is saying, the border czar, he supports the right for people to protest, obviously, but not when people cross the line.

Do you think that some actions from protesters crossed the line or was this purely overkill?

SWALWELL: Violence always is crossing the line. And there's no place for violence in our community. And I don't support or want to be associated with anyone who is going to bring violence against these officers. Period.

Now, Laura, I will also say, as a former prosecutor, son of a cop, brother to cops, so I've put people in jail for assaulting cops. ICE agents are the only law enforcement agency in America who routinely go into our neighborhoods masked and not identified. Those masks should come off. If they are standing on the law --

COATES: Do you support that because --

SWALWELL: -- they should not be afraid to show their face.

COATES: Excuse me, congressman.

SWALWELL: Yes.

COATES: I don't mean to interrupt you.

SWALWELL: I think every ICE agent should be unmasked.

COATES: I want to ask you about because --

SWALWELL: Yeah.

COATES: You do think that every ICE agent should not have a mask. Is that -- is that still your position even though they say that ICE says that assaults are up, what, 700% from a year ago? Would there be any danger that is posed to those who remove the mask or do you see the value in removing it, outweighing any risk to those agents? SWALWELL: We need the -- we need ICE agents to have trust and credibility. And if someone attacks an ICE agent or makes a threat against an ICE agent, they should be put in jail, and that's the best way to go after someone who does that.

But they have lost the trust of the community. One, because they're not going after violent criminals, as we were promised, and instead going after our friends and neighbors who work in our community. But two, they look like masked bank robber bandits, and it's not safe for them because somebody may pull a gun on them, thinking they're someone else, and it's not safe for people who don't know who they are.

So, those masks should come off. If they don't come off because of laws that are being passed in states like California and New York, I promise you, in a democratic majority, there's enough colleagues of mine who are going to push to make that the law.

COATES: Quickly, congressman, have they explained to you and your committee why they are wearing those masks?

SWALWELL: The excuses that I've heard is that they're afraid of, you know, being exposed. And the FBI, as you know, having worked at the Department of Justice, when they go on a raid, when they conduct searches, they wear pretty loud uniforms that say FBI, but they don't cover their faces.

So, unless they can articulate in each case why their faces need to be covered for their own safety, I think they should be unmasked. They've lost the trust and credibility. And that's just not what America looks like. That's what Russia looks like. That's what China looks like. That's not what America looks like. And we're going to put -- we're going to unmask ICE, I promise you, Laura, in a democratic majority.

COATES: Congressman Eric Swalwell, thank you for joining.

SWALWELL: My pleasure.

COATES: Well, you know, it appears that Americans attitudes towards immigration are, in fact, changing with 79% of people in a new Gallup poll saying immigration is a good thing for the U.S. and fewer Americans want immigration decreased.

Well, joining me now, Nayyera Haq, former Obama White House senior director, and CNN political commentator Brad Todd, both with us.

Let me begin with you, Brad, on this Friday evening. Should the administration read this as a sign that their deportation efforts are maybe not as popular as they may think in the way that they're being executed?

BRAD TODD, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Well, you know, just in that question, it talks about immigrants, the legal immigrants. President Trump has said that we want legal immigrants to come to America and make it a better country.

They're also pretty consistently the majority of Americans who have said that people who are here illegally should be deported from the country when they've been deemed deportable.

And so that is a pretty big difference. And I think, you know, going back to this case that we just saw, this ruling we just saw today in the Ninth Circuit, you know, it is -- I think we need to stress that it is just in temporary restraining order.

[23:10:02]

The director of Department of Homeland Security says that these raids are highly targeted. They're going to get a chance to prove that in court. They just had one set of arguments yesterday. This is a very early stage.

COATES: Indeed, it is an early stage, Nayyera. And, of course, injunctions are intended to be that. But they also require that it be a high likelihood of success or some on the merits. And so, there is some inkling that this is, in fact, maybe quite telling about what this ultimately might end up being.

But Nayyera, on this point, have Democrats found the right footing on their messaging around immigration given the polling?

NAYYERA HAQ, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Well, we certainly have seen that the polling is showing that people are now aware that President Trump and the administration are not going only after criminals. Right? People who are (INAUDIBLE) status, many Haitians, many Venezuelans are losing legal status. Right? So that status is stripped away to then make them illegal and deportable. That still does not make them criminals or violent criminals.

We all know that actually violating a visa or violating migration terms, you are actually -- it's a misdemeanor offense. You're already seeing that escalation of enforcement. You're seeing more people being thrown into that class for enforcement to meet this quota of 3,000 people deported a day.

And when you start ripping grandmothers from families and people see children being separated from parents, and these are people who have been working in their neighborhoods, they start to see the difference between the rhetoric and the reality.

And the reality is that people who have not posed a threat other than their technical status are being removed from the country, and that has been a hit to the economy, that has been a hit to people's neighborhoods and their social networks and fabrics.

COATES: Hmm.

HAQ: And now, we're seeing that there's a court that's saying that that's also -- the way it's being done is also a hit to the Constitution.

COATES: And yet, as you know, there has been a lot --

TODD: Excuse me, Laura. COATES: Brad, I want to get you in one second, but, as you know, the technical aspect of this has been what many people have held on to and said violent crimes or just the existence of being in the country alone is enough for the president to try to pursue these directives. But the tactics, of course, is what many people are taking issue with as well.

And Brad, there was an influential podcaster, Andrew Schulz, who voted for Trump. He is now -- he's not just taking issue with the administration's key -- handling of key promises. Listen to what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANDREW SCHULZ, PODCASTER: Like there'll be people that, like, they'll D.M. me back. You see what -- you see what your boy doing? You voted for this. I'm, like, I voted for none of this.

(LAUGHTER)

He's doing the exact opposite of everything I voted for.

(LAUGHTER)

UNKNOWN: Yeah.

SCHULZ: I want him to stop the wars. He's funding them. I want him to shrink spending, reduce the budget.

UNKNOWN: He's increasing it.

SCHULZ: He's increasing it. It's, like, everything that he said he's going to do except sending immigrants back. And now, he has even flip- flopped on that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: Tell me what you make of the fact that somebody like this person, for example, might be symbolic of many others who feel as though there was a bit of a bait and twitch. What do you say to them?

TODD: Well, there's a lot of podcasts. There's a lot of substacks. I have one. I hope people will go look at it.

COATES: Nice.

(LAUGHTER)

TODD: I love talk radio hosting. There's a wide variety of viewpoints out there. You know, I'm going go backwards to what we talked about a moment ago about --

COATES: Wait. Before you -- wait. Before you do, before you do, address that point. That is the podcaster's viewpoint that has been shared with many other people. What do you say to that viewpoint that people say that Trump has essentially not done what he promised you on the campaign trail? Are there consequences for Republicans?

TODD: Ninety percent of the Republican voters in this country are supportive of President Trump right now, which is a higher percentage than any president in our lifetime has enjoyed of his own party in his first year. I think President Trump has a pretty good feel on where his voters are.

But if we could go back one second on deportations. You know, President Barack Obama said that you should have to leave the country and go back to the back of the line if you are not here legally, and you shouldn't be ahead of someone who has been doing it legally from their foreign country and trying to apply to come here.

I mean, I think that's a testament to how far Democrats have come. Democrats now are making the claim basically that if you're here in this country legally, you should get to stay forever. And that's -- that is just -- that's not where the American people are.

COATES: Wait. Nayyera, was that your statement? Is that what you were saying, Nayyera?

HAQ: No. I actually just -- what I stated was that there are people who are here legally, who are now losing their status because yes, Obama has been labeled by the last as to deporter-in-chief, and Trump has not but managed to make the same deportation numbers in order to do that.

There's a creation of undocumented people because the flip-flop that was being referenced by the podcaster has actually been interesting. The flip-flop is we know that there are undocumented workers on farms.

[23:14:59]

We know that there are undocumented workers on chicken plants, many of whom are paying Social Security because their employers have filed under fake names. So, we know all of this.

But those industries are terrified of losing the free labor and it not being replaced.

COATES: Hmm.

HAQ: And it's that industries are very important not only to the American fabric but also to the Republican Party. So, Trump has flip- flopped on workforce and -- rather workplace enforcement. And so, you're seeing the folks that are not being targeted for political and economic reasons.

COATES: I know we got to go. I'm going to hear your response, Brad, on your podcast because he already plugged it here. Let's listen to it.

TODD: There you go.

COATES: There you go. So, I did there for you. There you go. Thank you to both of you. I'll hear more on the other side. Up next, the FBI deputy director reportedly considering resigning over the handling of the Jeffrey Epstein files. But that may not be good enough for some of the loudest MAGA voices who say it's Attorney General Pam Bondi who needs to go. We'll get into all of it next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[23:20:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COATES: All right, so, here's what we're dealing with on this Friday night. A conspiracy theory that started as a MAGA rallying cry is now blowing up in the administration's face. Yep, I'm talking about the fallout over the Jeffrey Epstein files.

Sources are telling CNN the deputy FBI director, Dan Bongino, is considering quitting over how the DOJ is handling the Epstein case. Now, we're learning it's getting so heated. Bongino didn't even show up to work today. Just two days ago, he clashed with Attorney General Pam Bondi at the White House.

The firestorm is erupting after the Monday release of a DOJ memo and what many in MAGA world see as a total walk back. It flatly denies the central claims that are fueling the Epstein conspiracy. It says there is no evidence that (INAUDIBLE) had a client list or that he was murdered in his prison cell in 2019.

But Bondi had been teasing answers, remember, just weeks earlier.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PAM BONDI, UNITED STATES ATTORNEY GENERAL: A lot of documents.

UNKNOWN: Yeah. Okay. All right. So, people can expect actual movement on this. It's not just empty promises.

BONDI: Oh. Donald Trump doesn't make empty promises.

UNKNOWN: Yeah, right.

UNKNOWN: The DOJ may be releasing the list of Jeffrey Epstein's clients? Will that really happen?

BONDI: It's sitting on my desk right now to review. That has been a directive by President Trump.

What you're going to see, hopefully tomorrow, is a lot of flight logs, a lot of names, a lot of information.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: Hmm. And it wasn't just Bondi. Bongino was pushing the same line back when he was a MAGA podcast host.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) DAN BONGINO, DEPUTY DIRECTOR, FBI (voice-over): What the hell are they hiding with Jeffrey Epstein? Why do they want to make this Jeffrey Epstein story go away so bad?

The Jeffrey Epstein case, you do not know all the details of this thing, I promise. I'm not letting it go ever. Ever.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: For that matter, many people now on the inside were flirting with all sorts of Epstein claims when they were on the outside, including President Trump himself.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: There are those people, there are many people, I think you're one of them. Right? But a lot of people think that he -- he was killed. He knew a lot on a lot of people.

TUCKER CARLSON, CONSERVATIVE POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, FORMER FOX NEWS HOST: He was killed.

TRUMP: You think so?

Yeah, I'd be inclined to do the Epstein. I'd have no problem with it.

J.D. VANCE, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: Seriously, we need to release the Epstein list. That is an important thing.

KASH PATEL, DIRECTOR, FBI: Put on your big boy pants and let us know who the pedophiles are.

ALINA HABBA, COUNSELOR TO PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: We have flight logs. We have information, names. That will come out.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: So, now, MAGA is in full-blown crisis mode. They say that Trump's team isn't delivering what they promised, and they're warning there might just be political consequences.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CARLSON: They're covering up. The DOJ, the current DOJ under Pam Bondi is covering up crimes. Very serious crimes by their own description.

STEVE BANNON, FORMER WHITE HOUSE CHIEF STRATEGIST: It's not about just a pedophile ring and all that. It's about who governs us. Right? For this to go away, you're going to lose 10% of the MAGA movement.

SCHULZ: It's insulting our intelligence. Obviously, the intelligence community is trying to cover it up. Obviously, the Trump administration is trying to cover up. Something changed because they ran on this idea of exposing it all.

UNKNOWN (voice-over): Yeah.

JACK POSOBIEC, POLITICAL ACTIVIST: Don't tell me there's nothing. Don't sit there for -- and I will sit and tell it like I'm a joke. Like it's a joke that there's nothing. No, it's absolutely not. Put out everything you have.

LAURA LOOMER, POLITICAL ACTIVIST: I blame Pam Blondie. I really do. And Trump was the one who appointed her, and Trump can be the one to fire her if she doesn't have enough dignity and shame to resign.

LAURA INGRAHAM, FOX NEWS HOST: Satisfied with the results of the Epstein investigation. Clap.

(BOOEING)

INGRAHAM: How many of you are not satisfied with the results of the investigation?

(APPLAUSE)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: Look, what Epstein was convicted of is horrifying. It's disgusting. Full stop. And we may never know everything that he did. But what is clear is that Trump and his allies helped feed some suspicions that it was Democrats who were hiding something. Now, that very same movement that Trump created is starting to push back. We've seen this movie before.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNKNOWN: It's alive! It's moving!

UNKNOWN: It's alive! It's alive! It's alive!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: So, this now feels like it could be Donald Trump's Frankenstein.

[23:25:02]

And much like the movie, this MAGA internet monster appears to feel hurt that its suspicions have been cast aside. And now, out for vengeance.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MEGYN KELLY, PODCAST HOST: I don't think he realizes how much she has humiliated the administration. This is a self-inflicted wound. She caused it. Again, I have nothing against Pam Bondi, but if you want to look for the villain in this story, we have found her. I mean, she is the person who's either -- she's lying now or she was lying then.

(END VIDEO CLIP) COATES: I want to bring in the reporter who got the inside scoop first, senior politics reporter for Axios, Marc Caputo. Also, here, Dave Aronberg, former state attorney for Palm Beach County, Florida who worked with Attorney General Pam Bondi.

Marc, let me begin with you because there was a showdown between Attorney General Pam Bondi and deputy director for the FBI, Dan Bongino, at the White House earlier this week. What did you learn happened?

MARC CAPUTO, SENIOR POLITICS REPORTER, AXIOS: Pretty high tensions. It didn't end well. By the way, have an echo return in my -- in my ear, so it makes it very complicated to talk. Maybe you should go to Dave for a second.

COATES: I don't hear any echo from you, but let me go -- I'll go to Dave first, certainly, while we work that out for you because I definitely want to hear what you have to say about this very issue.

But you've heard already, Dave, that Attorney General Bondi is, as Megyn Kelly mentioned, some sort of a villain here, she says. The attorney general, Pam Bondi, helped orchestrate a scoop from MAGA influencers at the White House. Was that a mistake, to try to indulge those who were hungry for their validation for that conspiracy theory?

DAVE ARONBERG, FORMER STATE ATTORNEY, PALM BEACH COUNTY: Yes. Laura, it's good to be with you and my fellow Florida man, Marc Caputo. Yes, it is a mistake to appease these guys. The alligator is always hungry. No matter how many times you try to feed them or appease them, eventually, they're going to bite your face off. And that is what administration officials have learned.

But it is ironic that you have Bongino and Kash Patel who are feeding these flanks, feeding these conspiracy theories. And now, they're upset. I'm trying to figure out why. Is it because they disagree with the memo that was released? Well, turns out they signed on to the memo. Is it they just didn't like that their team, their base has turned on them and need someone to blame, hence, let's blame Pam Bondi?

COATES: Well, Marc, I know that you have some reporting on what happened at that White House meeting between Bongino and Bondi and, of course, the White House. Who was there? What happened?

CAPUTO: Blowback was so severe that Bongino, on Wednesday, met with Bondi or she called him into the White House. Chief of Staff Susie Wiles was there, Deputy Chief of Staff Taylor Budowich. And Bongino's big beef was that from the get-go, Bondi had sort of messed up the messaging and caused a problem and the blowback was too intense.

Bondi's complaint was that he had signed off on this memo's release the entire time. And according to her and justice officials, Bongino was the one who found the tape and brought it to everyone's attention of the surveillance video outside of Epstein's jail cell showing that no one had entered it and, therefore, Epstein had killed himself and wasn't murdered. The problem, they said, is that he vouched for it, but he didn't catch

the fact that there's a -- quote -- "missing minute in it," which is a result of some sort of computer system that resets the recording. But, apparently, every day, in this New York jail cell or this prison, the system resets and they lose a minute of recording. Once this hit the internet and internet sleuths found this out, they thought there was a conspiracy to hide this.

And now, there has been subsequent reporting from wired.com that what was reported to be the raw video was not raw video. It was actually pulled from two other sources and it had been edited through Adobe premiere editing system.

So, there's a lot of unravel here. But the bottom line is that Pam Bondi feels besieged by the MAGA base. Kash Patel, the FBI director, feels besieged. And so Bongino. Everyone thinks everyone else is to blame, and it's tearing these folks apart and has them at each other's throats.

COATES: So, how serious is the claim that Bongino is considering quitting the FBI?

CAPUTO: Oh, very serious. I think what he has told others, who have told me, either she goes or I go. Now, that could have just been him blowing off steam. We're going to see. We're told, as of tonight, he's still an employee there. From one of my sources, he's going to the Morgan Wallen concert here in Miami. We'll see if maybe some of that country music sets him at ease. And where he is on Monday is going to be anyone's guess.

COATES: I wonder, does Kash Patel feel the same way?

[23:30:00]

CAPUTO: We understand that Patel has made some noise about he might go if Bongino goes. But let's see what happens. The player who has not really weighed in yet is President Trump. At a certain point, he might want to step in or I wouldn't be surprised if he steps in and tells everyone, knock it off, shut up, do your job, get back to work.

COATES: A lot of pressure on Morgan Wallen's concert tonight, I see. Dave, let me ask you, because your former boss, Attorney General Pam Bondi, under a lot of scrutiny, a lot, and backlash over her handling of this case. You've heard Marc talked about the potential domino effect. What do you say to those who says that she's the one that botched it?

ARONBERG: Well, remember, I ran against her before she hired me. She won the election, and then hired me as her drug czar. And for those who say she bought it, well, I do think that she tried to appease those who are the loudest voices in the party. And when you are the attorney general or FBI director, you have to have (INAUDIBLE) different role than when you're a podcaster or civilian. And even if you mean well, you're eventually going to get beat.

She should have made it clear when she was on Fox News that she was referring to the file and not the client list because there is no client list. You can talk to those closest to all this. There's no client list and Jeffrey Epstein killed himself.

Now, the other stuff about the potential evidence of third parties, that's a little more interesting, I think, because I do think, from what I hear, is that there is evidence of third parties. It's just that the DOJ doesn't want to go down that road. But in the end, you know, this was inevitable because there was no way out on this. Either please and appease people who are just -- you know, think that this is all about Democrats in a sex trafficking ring or you tell them the truth.

COATES: The consequence of pandering, it seems. Marc Caputo, Dave Aronberg, thank you both.

CAPUTO: Thank you.

ARONBERG: Thank you.

COATES: Well, the Epstein files fallout isn't the only chaos going down at the FBI. A new report says the agency is using polygraph test -- yes, lie detector test -- to see if employees are loyal to the FBI director. My next guest says that he was targeted, but he resigned before taking one. You know what? He joins me next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[23:35:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COATES: Amid the political turmoil between Pam Bondi and Kash Patel and Dan Bongino over the Epstein files, the FBI is under fire for something else. "The New York Times" reports that the FBI has stepped up the use of polygraph test -- yes, lie detector test -- not to sniff out employees who betrayed the country, but to ask senior employees if they're loyal to the FBI director, Kash Patel.

My next guest was asked to submit such a test, but ultimately declined to do so. He says that his friendship with the former special agent, Peter Strzok, made him a target. He had no prior disciplinary record or investigation, but he was asked nonetheless.

And former assistant special agent in charge, Michael Feinberg, says in an online essay -- quote -- "My only supposed sin was a long- standing friendship with an individual who appeared on Kash Patel's enemies list, and against whom Dan Bongino had railed publicly."

And Michael Feinberg joins me now. Michael, I want to get to your experience in just a moment. But first, I have to ask you about this unfolding drama between Kash Patel, between Dan Bongino, Pam Bondi, all over the Epstein files. What do you make of all this? Are you surprised?

MICHAEL FEINBERG, FORMER ASSISTANT SPECIAL AGENT IN CHARGE, FBI: I wish I could say I was surprised. The whole drama for anybody who works in law enforcement or intelligence or for the Department of Justice, as you yourself did, news that what's going on right now is, quite frankly, lunacy.

Epstein was a monster, who got away with what he did for far too long. Eventually, the case was investigated. He was arrested. He took his own life in prison.

I don't know many people in the law enforcement community who are sorry about that. But for most of them, it ended there. There's no real rational explanation for the extended afterlife of this case beyond some random conspiracy theory ramblings that have taken hold at the senior levels of the FBI and DOJ.

COATES: So, how is that conspiracy theory or the continuation of all different theories of how he died, about what was on the list, if there was a list and beyond, how did that impact the rank and file who were there?

FEINBERG: In two main ways. The first way is that the FBI, like any government organization, is one of limited resources and personnel. And it's an open secret that has been widely reported on, that early in this administration, agents in the New York field office were forced to work 24-hour shifts, scouring the paper files associated with the Epstein investigation, looking for something. It still hasn't been explained to me exactly in any sort of clear terms what that thing was.

[23:39:58]

So, a lot of agents who couldn't be -- who could have been working high priority terrorism or public corruption cases were instead pulling all-nighters for the sake of satisfying conspiracy theorists' daydreams.

The second way it's impacting things is that the FBI is a complicated organization that is dealing with a lot of serious issues right now. The budget has been slashed a couple years in a row. And when Kash Patel was on the Hill, he's testifying about this, he looked like a deer in the headlights.

So, there's a real question. If he can't prepare for a budgetary hearing, which is the baseline job or at least one of them of the FBI director, why are precious hours being spent on something like this?

COATES: Two good questions that you've raised there. I have one for you, though, and that is that you were asked to submit to a polygraph test. Why did they want you to take that test in the first place?

FEINBERG: That was never explained to me.

COATES: Really?

FEINBERG: I was asked if I was a friend of Pete Strzok. I said that I was. I explained the nature of our friendship, how it began, how often we communicated, what it consisted of in terms of social outings. There were no denials on my part of that. And -- COATES: So why now?

FEINBERG: I don't know at all, honestly.

COATES: The FBI, you know, sometimes does use polygraph test during an investigation, not in the way that it's being used in this realm. But one former FBI agent told the Times -- quote -- "An FBI employee's loyalty is to the Constitution, not the director or deputy director."

I wonder if you could expand upon that very notion because I -- has this and your experience and the impact of these tests at all, have they harmed the morale at the bureau?

FEINBERG: Immensely. And I could expound on that notion very easily because it's something that's drilled into our heads starting with day one at the academy. Our oath of office is to uphold and defend the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic. We are explicitly told that our loyalty is not to the director, it is not to our immediate supervisor, it is not to the president, it is solely to the words and meanings of the Constitution.

And to show you how seriously they take it, they've also mandated, as long as I've been in the bureau, that we do a block of instruction put on by the Holocaust Museum so we can understand exactly what happens when law enforcement does shift its loyalty from abstract ideals to a specific individual. It won't be spoiling anything for your viewers to say that the end result is not pretty.

COATES: Michael Feinberg, thank you for joining.

FEINBERG: Thank you for having me.

COATES: Up next on this Friday night, fans love her. Critics love to hate her. So, what is it about Caitlin Clark and the WNBA that continues to fuel nearly daily hype and controversy? The journalist who tried to find out by literally writing a brand-new book on Clark joins me next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[23:45:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNKNOWN (voice-over): For the teeth of the defense, Clark fading and hitting.

(APPLAUSE)

UNKNOWN (voice-over): Almost a sarcastic look to the heavens. She hits her first three of the nights.

(END VIDEO CLIP) COATES: That classic three-point shot from Caitlin Clark. Her team, the Indiana Fever, coming out on top tonight, defeating the Atlanta Dream 99 to 82. The game marks Clark's second night back on the fever lineup after a five-game absence due to an injury.

Well, my next guest is covering that matchup tonight. And she has been doing a lot. Of course, a lot of nights. She has been with women's sports for decades now covering it so meticulously, culminating in a new book that is making waves. I'm talking about, of course, veteran sports journalist Christine Brennan and her new book, "On Her Game: Caitlin Clark and the Revolution in Women's Sports."

And in it, Brennan writes, "This is a story about a groundbreaking, historic, immensely popular, but also at times controversial cultural figure, made for the moment, and how she is dramatically altering one of the last great bastions of male superiority: sports."

Christine joins me now. I'm excited to read this book. I've been waiting for this to come out. I'm glad that you're here. You have been arguing that the WNBA mishandled the moment when it came to Caitlin Clark's rise. You talked about it in the book. Why and what should they have done differently?

CHRISTINE BRENNAN, CNN SPORTS ANALYST: Laura, as someone who has been covering the WNBA for a long time and hoping for a moment like this, I was very surprised when I talked to a WNBA official right after Caitlin Clark announced that she was going to be eligible for the draft.

And I said, you realize how big this is because we'd already seen the big crowds, record T.V. ratings, more people watching the women's final game than the men's in college. So, you know it's going to be a big deal. And this person, who is an official I've known for a long time, said, yeah, this is probably the biggest thing to happen to the WNBA since Maya Moore.

Now, Maya Moore is a great player, four-time WNBA champ, all-American at UConn, and also a wonderful humanitarian and fighter for social justice. But, unfortunately, she never moved the needle. She was known well in the sports world, but never transcended sports.

[23:50:01]

When I heard that, I thought that the idea that they thought this was as big as someone who was not anywhere near as big as Caitlin Clark, I realized something, which is that they didn't either understand or maybe even couldn't believe.

Because of getting all the short shrift over the years from the male- dominated mainstream sports media, that they couldn't believe that this could happen to them, that what is happening wasn't really coming.

And because of that, I think it's a 74% Black league. I think they failed to help the players understand and work through this, not because they're damsels in distress, no, they're terrific, strong, well-educated women, but because something like this, a white woman becoming the superstar in the league that has toiled in obscurity for quite a while and, again, 74% Black, that maybe it was an opportunity to talk to them, to work these things out, to prepare for the moment, something that most sports have never seen to this magnitude. That is, I think, where --

COATES: But Christine, how -- how would they have prepared them? I mean, in many ways, I think you rightly point out that the story of Caitlin Clark is a microcosm for other things. And while some want to dismiss all this to jealousy, there is a deeper discussion that's happening.

Would you -- how would you have prepared the league knowing that she would be talked about differently, highlighted differently, marketed differently? What is it that they needed to learn?

BRENNAN: I have two wonderful voices in the book among many, many, many white players and white voices, many Black voices. That was very important to me. You know, how seriously I take these issues.

And I talked to Dr. Harry Edwards, the great civil rights leader, the man behind the -- impetus behind the "Black Power salute" at the 1968 Mexico City Olympics.

COATES: Uh-hmm.

BRENNAN: And what he said was the league failed the players. He said, you have seminars, you have Zooms, you talk it through if it's one-on- one or team. He would have been happy to talk to some of the teams just to discuss the fact that, you know, Caitlin Clark, you know, is there standing on their shoulders to work through it.

And then Briana Scurry. You know Brianna Scurry, of course, the goalkeeper on the 1999 Women's World Cup soccer team.

COATES: From Minnesota.

BRENNA: The first Black superstar of the U.S. Yeah, U.S. women's national team. Exactly from Minnesota. Briana Scurry said the same thing. This is the moment, work through it, let's help everyone discuss it. And clearly, that did not happen.

If you anticipate it, say Dr. Harry Edwards and Briana Scurry, if you talk about it, this was going to be such a remarkable moment, something so different for the league, then that would have been what they could have done. Unfortunately, they didn't do that.

COATES: I'm excited to read the rest of your book because I think you talk about all these points and the idea of the tension of the either or and why it wasn't something different. Christine Brennan, wish we had more time together. Thank you. We'll be right back.

BRENNAN: Thank you, Laura.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[23:55:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COATES: CNN Heroes is back celebrating good news and good people. Take off its 19th year. We caught up with Stephen Knight, the 2024 CNN Hero of the Year. Stephen was honored for his work fostering pets while their owners focus on addiction recovery. And now, his life-saving mission has spread from Texas to the rest of the world.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

COATES: And the 2024 CNN Hero of the Year is Stephen Knight!

STEPHEN KNIGHT, 2024 CNN HERO OF THE YEAR (voice-over): When Anderson and Laura announced it, I just -- I got emotional.

To be able to help others and have a purpose now, I'm so overwhelmed.

(Voice-over): I feel like I kind of just crowned like a Miss America.

We'll call it Mr. America or Mr. Universe because it has been a global thing.

(Voice-over): I've had opportunities to talk about Dogs Matter from Dubai to Australia. We had 150% increase of applications. We were able to bring on two more recovery coaches. It introduced us to the Elevate Prize Foundation. We became part of their family, changing the world with these leaders.

Thank you for talking about that.

(Voice-over): It's the perfect timing. We're looking to scale up.

DR. KWANE STEWART, 2023 CNN HERO OF THE YEAR: It's no secret I was rooting for you.

KNIGHT (voice-over): Dr. Kwane from the year before me, our missions are so complementary. We're in the beginning stages of planning a project street vet in Dallas and Dogs Matter in L.A.

Hi guys! How cute are you?

(Voice-over): The other thing is more recognition. We got treatment centers. And Texas said, hey, we'll take dogs.

UNKNOWN: Bye, Jack!

KNIGHT (voice-over): A lot of those dogs, all they need is a second chance. It's like I was given.

One of my favorite programs that we have now is called the Bark Thorn where these kids that are serving time have an opportunity to work with one of our dogs. And it's really been life-changing for some of the kids.

UNKNOWN: It motivated me to be better. KNIGHT: Okay. Yeah, that's what it's all about.

(APPLAUSE)

(Voice-over): Dogs Matter, we're in our 10th year. We've saved thousands and thousands of lives. It has been incredible.

You're celebrating. It's a night and day difference. This is a picture of survivors.

UNKNOWN: Very few people in this world have inspired me the way that Stephen did.

KNIGHT: Isn't it cool?

UNKNOWN: Yeah, that's awesome. I love it.

KNIGHT: Yeah.

(Voice-over): To be able to know that this little program that I did in my backyard 10 years ago is now being considered worldwide and people are going I need this, we need this, that's the best thing ever. It's just like what a privilege and an honor.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COATES: Next week, we introduce you to the first 2025 CNN hero. For more uplifting stories or to nominate someone you think should be a CNN hero, go to CNN.com/heroes.

Hey, thank you all for watching. "Anderson Cooper 360" is next.

[00:00:01]

But first, a sneak peek at the CNN Original Series "Billionaire Boys Club," which goes inside the shocking story of 1980s greed and murder.