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Laura Coates Live

DOJ Fires Maurene Comey; Trump Blasts Supporters Over Epstein Memo; Trump Pressures Fed Chair Powell, Dangles Threat of Firing; Mamdani Goes to Washington as Democrats Weigh Endorsement. Aired 11p- 12a ET

Aired July 16, 2025 - 23:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[23:00:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ABBY PHILLIP, CNN ANCHOR AND SENIOR POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: A special programming note. On Friday, as we are taking the show on a field trip, we will be broadcasting our round table debate from the Food Network Kitchen. We will, of course, have food, drinks, and some lively conversation. You don't want to miss it, Summer Fridays.

And thank you very much for watching "NewsNight." "Laura Coates Live" starts right now.

LAURA COATES, CNN HOST AND SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: So just when you thought this Epstein file story could not get any stranger, this happens. Tonight, Donald Trump's DOJ fired one of the prosecutors who actually got justice for some of the victims of Jeffrey Epstein.

I'm talking, of course, about Maurene Comey. She was part of the prosecution team that was handling the Jeffrey Epstein case in the Southern District of New York. It never got to trial, of course, because Epstein died in prison.

But Maurene Comey, she did successfully prosecute his accomplice, Ghislaine Maxwell. Got her locked up for what? Twenty years? And you may, of course, remember her. She was the lead prosecutor on the sex trafficking trial and RICO case of Sean "Diddy" Combs.

Now, we actually have no clue why Maurene Comey was officially let go from the SDNY tonight. Her name, though, it might be a clue. Her father, the former FBI director, James Comey, is now the man that Trump is suddenly blaming for the Epstein files.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: I know it's a hoax. It's started by Democrats. It has been run by the Democrats for four years. You had Christopher Wray in these characters and Comey before him.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: And now, Trump is flat out telling his supporters, if you don't believe the Epstein files are a hoax, then well, you're an idiot who was -- quote -- "bought into this bullshit, hook, line, and sinker."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: It has all been a big hoax. It's perpetrated by the Democrats. And some stupid Republicans and foolish Republicans fall into the net. And so, they try and do the Democrats' work.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: Now, on your screen right now are the supposed fools who fell into the net. They include the vice president, the attorney general, the director and deputy director of the FBI, all of whom have hyped up the Epstein files at one point or another until now. So, it's no surprise that Trump's new position is not going over well in MAGA world.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MATT WALSH, POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Many of us were not saying anything different from what we've been saying for years about Epstein. Okay? And also, what Trump has been saying for years about it.

Now, Trump has decided, all of a sudden, that the issue doesn't matter, it's boring, and anyone who talks about it is a weakling and not one of his supporters. He decided that in the last two weeks. He never said that before.

So, the idea that we as conservatives are obligated to just adopt that perspective out of the blue is madness.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: By the way, he also said, let these weaklings continue forward and do Democrats work. Goes on to say, I don't want their support anymore. That's his Truth Social post.

His supporters, well, they're trying to give him an off-ramp. They want a special counsel appointed. Would Trump go for it?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNKNOWN (voice-over): President Trump, would you consider appointing a special counsel to investigate the Jeffrey Epstein investigation?

TRUMP: I have nothing to do with it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: So, what now? Well, in a moment, Congressman Tim Burchett, one of the House Republicans who wants to force a vote on releasing the Epstein files, is going to join me on where that effort stands tonight. But first, to my panel, CNN senior law enforcement analyst, former deputy director of the FBI, Andrew McCabe, former chief of the SDNY's Westchester division and Maurene Comey's former supervisor, Mimi Rocah. Also here, contributing columnist for "The Hill" and the "L.A. Times," Matt Lewis.

I want to begin with you here, Mimi, because "The New York Times" suggests that the possible reason that Maurene Comey is where she is right now is that she's being set up as a fall person. It's possible that as prosecutor, as you know, on the Epstein case, she would have asked that certain information maybe remain private which, of course, is standard in very sensitive cases and redactions strictly for victims. You knew Maurene Comey. What do you say?

MIMI ROCAH, FORMER WESTCHESTER COUNTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY, FORMER ASSISTANT U.S. ATTORNEY FOR SDNY: Look, Laura, let's be clear. The Epstein investigation and prosecution were botched years ago in the District of Florida by a U.S. attorney named Alex Acosta, who was a Republican-appointee and who later worked for Trump, but had to resign in disgrace when it came out that he had botched the Epstein investigation.

[23:05:04]

The reason it came out, the reason victims got justice was because of Maurene Comey in the Southern District of New York. She is a relentless, excellent prosecutor. I can't say enough good things about her skill, her judgment, her rigor.

And she saw a case where victims had been denied justice. And that's kind of her whole thing. Maurene lives to get justice for victims. And so, she took a case that others would have considered too hard to resurrect. And she did that. And she did get justice as much as one prosecutor one office could.

So, I don't know exactly what is going on here and how they're setting her up to be the fall guy or if they are. But it is cowardly. It is political. It is based on conspiracy theories. And, frankly, the U.S. attorney in the Southern District of New York needs to stand up for his people.

COATES: I had to tell you, and Andrew, I'll go to you on this, because I was in the courtroom and watched Maurene Comey at work when it came to the Diddy trial. I had to say, she was exceptionally talented and skilled as a prosecutor. Very impressive of it, not the outcome that they wanted in the SDNY fully.

But let me ask you, Andrew, because President Trump claims that your former boss, the ex-FBI director, same last name, of course, this time James Comey, Jim Comey, along with former presidents like President Barack Obama and Joe Biden, made up the Epstein files.

But let me ask you this because "The New York Times" is reporting that Ms. Comey was informed of her firing in a letter that cited Article II of the Constitution, which describes the powers of the president. What can you read into that? Anything? ANDREW MCCABE, CNN SENIOR LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST, FORMER FBI DEPUTY DIRECTOR: Not much. I mean, saying in the letter that you've been fired because the president has Article II powers is like saying you've been fired because he can.

COATES: Hmm.

MCCABE: Like, of course, we know he can. There are no details there to -- upon which she could make an assessment as to whether or not this is entirely pretext or what's behind it. But, you know, we can't say specifically.

But what we do know, and I know from my own personal experience and there's many other people you could ask now as well, President Trump fires people at DOJ and the FBI out of spite, out of politics, for vengeance, to punish people for not being sufficiently loyal.

Just ask the 20 prosecutors that Pam Bondi fired, I think, in the last week, all of whom worked on the Jack Smith cases. Ask the dozens of FBI executives who've been forced out, forced to resign or fired from the FBI since he was inaugurated. Ask Erez Reuveni, the immigration expert who had the temerity to actually go into court and tell the truth about Kilmar Abrego Garcia's unlawful and erroneous removal from the country. Of course, he has been fired as well.

So, this is a very clear pattern on the part of Donald Trump and his administration. They've so horribly mismanaged the fallout from these latest chapters of the Epstein saga that it's almost impossible to figure out what would have been the motivation there --

COATES: Hmm.

MCCABE: -- to now turn on Maurene Comey. If your -- if your base is outraged because you haven't done enough to release these investigative files, you turn around and fire the one person who put Epstein and his co-conspirator in jail? I mean, it just makes no sense.

COATES: It didn't douse the flames, Matt, at all. I mean, maybe added gasoline to the fire. And, of course, if you are a federal employee, you've got a muzzle on. You can't talk about the work you're doing and what's happening. Now, they've essentially freed her in some respect, although there's still some constraints there. So now they have potentially somebody who could speak about issues they want to silence.

But Matt, Laura Loomer is praising Attorney General Pam Bondi tonight for firing Comey's daughter. Will this quiet anyone in the base now that Laura Loomer is supportive?

MATT LEWIS, CONTRIBUTING COLUMNIST, THE HILL AND THE LOS ANGELES TIMES: I don't think this is going to do it. You know, Donald Trump is a master of these weapons of mass distraction. He tries to change the subject. He goes after Rosie O'Donnell and --

COATES: Hmm.

LEWIS: -- talks about revoking her citizenship. He was flirting with firing the chairman of the Federal Reserve board. And now, we get this.

I don't think it's going to work this time, though. For whatever reason, and I have theory, but this issue really seems to be sticking. And I think that there are true believers out there who really want to see justice for the victims of Epstein. I think that there are people who are conspiracy theorists who elected Donald Trump.

This was his deliverable. This was -- they didn't vote for, you know, tax cuts for corporations. They wanted conspiracy theories.

[23:10:00]

And they wanted to get the Epstein files. Now, they're not getting them. And look, I think something else --

COATES: By the way, before you put this point, Elon Musk, he has inserted himself in this conversation as well. He had been beating the drum on the Epstein files. He says that Trump's usual tactics won't work now, saying -- quote -- "The old: admit nothing, deny everything, make counterclaims. But it won't work this time." How does that factoring how this continues to have legs?

LEWIS: Well, he has made a very powerful enemy in Elon Musk, the richest man in the world who owns Twitter, X. And that is one difference. And I think that Elon Musk is indicative of the problem. Right? You have these MAGA influencers who used to be very intimidated by Donald Trump. I think they saw Donald Trump not only as the powerful president, sort of cult leader, but as the future. I think, increasingly, they're seeing him as a lame duck, and they're starting to envision what does a MAGA influencer world look like after Trump is gone.

COATES: Hmm.

LEWIS: Do you want to be on the side of the deep state or do you want to be on the side of -- I think it was Charlie Kirk who recently said, I'm just going to trust my friends in the government, I'm paraphrasing. And so, look, I think the incentives have changed. Now, you could be a hardcore MAGA conspiracy theorist and be against Donald Trump. First time.

COATES: Wow. Let me ask you, Andrew. There was a new interview tonight where President Trump is saying that the FBI could look into the Epstein files in case as part of a larger review of investigations. What would that accomplish exactly? There's already the DOJ memo. There's already been, obviously, a full investigation, we're told.

MCCABE: So, the FBI has been crashing on this thing for the last month or so. After the debacle of the binders that were handed out by the attorney general in the White House, which were impressive to no one, they turned around and asked the FBI to go back and look through the files again and find more things that we can possibly release.

And I'm told that dozens and dozens and dozens of agents and analysts spent hundreds of hours reviewing everything. And ultimately, what came of that was the infamous memo that says nothing left to see here, we're not going to be releasing anything else.

So, I don't know where that gets you. They've talked about bringing in a special counsel. That'll accomplish exactly nothing. A special counsel could be brought in if you thought there was someone to be prosecuted. But, apparently, this Justice Department doesn't believe there's anyone to be prosecuted.

So, that would essentially have the effect of putting the whole thing in a, you know, freeze and a hold for months, maybe years, while that process played out. None of it will be enough to satisfy the conspiracy theorists that are demanding additional documents.

COATES: Of course, when you're talking, I'm hearing about the diversion of resources away from other matters the FBI is working on. Thank you all so much.

I want to bring in Republican congressman from Tennessee, Congressman Tim Burchett. Welcome, congressman.

I have to ask you. I mean, President Trump was dodging on naming a special counsel in the Epstein case. Do you think that a special counsel investigation would maybe put this story to rest once and for all and actually satisfy the questions people has -- have?

REP. TIM BURCHETT (R-TN): No, ma'am, because the left is always going to say that there was no conspiracy and conservative folks have been fed this line all along, and the Democrats now are making great hay out of it, yet they controlled Congress and the White House for four years and never really pushed it.

And as far as the question of whether is Donald Trump on some list, if he was on a list, I can assure you that the Biden administration would have put that out day one.

So, I think a lot of things are -- really, the question is, you know, if we do to a special prosecutor, who are they going to prosecute? But as far as the previous questions about whether Ms. Comey was fired for political reasons, every president in United States fires every U.S. attorney when they take over if they were in a previous administration of the other party. President Obama --

COATES: Except, congressman, she's -- except, obviously, she's not the SDNY -- she's not the U.S. attorney there. She is actually one of the line attorneys. She's not the actual U.S. attorney.

BURCHETT: She works in the U.S. attorney's office.

COATES: Fair enough that she does, and the president, obviously, has normally fired famously -- we've heard from when people would not step down as well. Preet Bharara, for example, did not want to step down as the SDNY U.S. attorney. But go back for a second, congressman. Special counsel can also investigate a matter without prosecuting a matter and trying to uncover what other -- what deals might actually be there. Why do you specifically --

BURCHETT: Yeah.

COATES: -- want there to be an investigation? Do you believe that the DOJ is withholding information right now about the truth of Epstein?

BURCHETT: I believe that a lot of the evidence has probably been destroyed.

[23:15:00]

I mean, that's what we do in Washington.

COATES: By who?

BURCHETT: We delay. That's a great question. That's what, I think, an investigation would solve. I mean, you honestly think Lee Harvey Oswald shot President Kennedy? There was something else going on there, and it has been proven. We even had expert testimony on Capitol Hill and Representative Luna's committee that I serve on.

The doctor in the E.R. specifically said wounds were coming from two different directions, and he had the maps and he showed the diagrams of everything, and yet no one wanted to cover it because -- why? Washington, that is -- that is Washington. You cover until you get out of office, and then somebody else doesn't know enough information and it continues to get covered up.

I don't think we'll ever know the answer to Epstein, ma'am, but I don't think we should ever stop asking what the heck went on.

COATES: Well, you're one of only a handful of Republicans who are pushing to force an eventual vote on releasing the Epstein files. How confident are you --

BURCHETT: Yes, ma'am.

COATES: -- that that effort is going to work?

BURCHETT: I think it'll probably pass the House. I do. I mean, all the Democrats will vote on it. We've got several Republicans like myself. Thomas Massey is the Republican who sponsored it. I talked to him this morning, and I agreed to it because I think America wants to know the answer and I believe -- but there's a great reason why Americans do not trust Congress. I mean, you know, we're at the bottom of the barrel as far as trust goes, and this is one of those things, because they do not believe that he committed suicide, they do not believe that there's no one on the list.

And look, I've studied criminals my entire political career. I've actually served with some criminals. But they rarely keep a list of their crimes, ma'am. That's the thing. I don't believe -- you know -- and -- and when they -- when they brought in the so-called influencers and gave them those white binders, I think that was a mistake, that was a tactical error because, obviously, when they gave those out, I think Ms. Bondi did not understand and had not -- she didn't have her ear to the -- to the ground like you and I would. And the stuff she released had --

COATES: Had already been released --

BURCHETT: You know, my 18-year-old daughter knew most of that stuff.

COATES: Uh-hmm.

BURCHETT: And I just think that was -- she took some bad advice, and that's going to continue to haunt us.

COATES: Well, President Trump, as you know, is calling the Epstein controversy B.S. He's actually labeling Republicans as -- these are his words -- stupid and foolish, even calling his own supporters 'weaklings' for not letting this story go, and he says he doesn't want their support anymore. What's your response to President Trump?

BURCHETT: President Trump has his own opinions. But, honestly, ma'am, he wins. Just like tonight, the cryptocurrency bill, it passed in the House because President Trump negotiated. He has a strategy and all this. And I suspect that's going to play out because, God damn it, he wins every God damn time. The big, beautiful bill, hit in Iran, the way they did with no American loss of life. It's uncanny that he ends up on top. And I suspect, on this case, he will -- he will do as well.

COATES: And you don't have any concern that that might be a consequence to those who might attribute this to a failed campaign promise?

BURCHETT: No, ma'am. I don't. You know, I can't respond to that. Honestly, ma'am, I sponsored some of the toughest laws in the country when I was a representative and a senator in Tennessee. Chemical castration, death penalty, a lot of those things were thrown out as unconstitutional. But now, they -- since passed, they embraced.

I passed the ICAC, International Crimes Against Children, for the state of Tennessee. I've held the hands of folks that have been abused.

COATES: Uh-hmm.

BURCHETT: And ultimately, ma'am, I'm going to answer to Jesus one day, and that may be offensive to some people but God damn it, it is the truth. And, you know, Jesus said, how you treat the least amongst us is how you treat me. Those kids are the least amongst us, ma'am.

And ultimately, I don't stand before the president or the voters. I'm going to stand before my creator, and I want to do that with a clear conscience. That's ultimately what drives me because --

COATES: Hmm. BURCHETT: -- politically, is this -- is this the route I need to take in Washington and, you know, everybody jumping down my throat? No. But my mom and daddy didn't raise me that way, ma'am. They were fighters, and they always stood up for the underdog.

And in this case, I think it's important we stand up for the people of America that have been abused and to say, we're through with these dirtbags. And honestly, ma'am, I would send them to hell as fast as I could. That's not bluster or anything else.

COATES: Uh-hmm.

BURCHETT: And that's just the way I stand. People that have -- have friends in the media that have been abused.

[23:20:00]

Heck, when I proposed to this legislation, people in my own neighborhood there in West Knoxville called me and told me that they'd been abused.

COATES: My goodness.

BURCHETT: This is a widespread thing. I think we need to send some hope to America, ma'am, that this is -- there goes my light, sorry. I'm in my office. There it goes. Sorry about that.

COATES: No. I think -- I think -- I think someone was trying to silence you but, obviously, you're led by a different kind of light, congressman. Thank you so much for joining us.

We got much more on all of this ahead as Democrats say, they're not going to let up on the Epstein files. Congressman Jamie Raskin will join me with his plans to get them released next.

But first, comedian Shane Gillis tonight getting in on the Epstein controversy during his monologue at the ESPYS.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SHANE GILLIS, COMEDIAN: Donald Trump wants to stage a UFC fight on the White House lawn. The last time he staged a fight in D.C., Mike Pence almost died.

(LAUGHTER)

You don't have to do that. It was fine. I didn't write it.

(LAUGHTER)

Actually, there was supposed to be an Epstein joke here, but it got deleted.

(LAUGHTER)

Must have probably deleted itself. Right? Probably never existed. Actually. Let's move on as a country and ignore that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

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[23:25:00]

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COATES: "The New York Times" reports tonight that the SDNY prosecutor, Maurene Comey, found out about her termination by a letter. The Times reports that letter said that Ms. Comey was being fired under Article II of the Constitution, which describes the powers granted to the president. As the Times mentions -- quote -- "The firing raises the possibility that Ms. Comey is being set up as a fall person as the administration seeks to move past the scandal."

With me now, Congressman Jamie Raskin, a Democrat from Maryland. He's a ranking member of the House Judiciary Committee. Congressman, welcome to the program. I have to ask you. What is your reaction to the firing of Maurene Comey?

REP. JAMIE RASKIN (D-MD): Well, they're sacking every Democrat they can find, and they're sacking all of the January 6th prosecutors and anybody who had anything to do with Jack Smith. They're clearly sacking her because of her last name and her connection also to the Epstein-Maxwell affair. So, you know, it's just par for the course for the Trump administration.

But there was a day when the attorney general of the United States actually ran a professional lawyer shop, and they respected the lawyers and they didn't fire them for political and ideological reasons. And now, the theory over there is Donald Trump runs it, they are Donald Trump's personal law firm, and if he doesn't want you, he's going to get rid of you.

COATES: I'm sure you've heard that President Trump has suggested, even tonight, that he may be open to having the FBI look closely at the Epstein files. And given tonight's development, do you think a kind of special prosecutor ought to be appointed?

RASKIN: It's ridiculous. There's already been numerous law enforcement investigations. The file exists. The information is there. That's why Donald Trump has been demanding that it go public for the last several years. That's what Pam Bondi has been demanding. That's what Dan Bongino has been demanding. That's what Kash Patel has been demanding. All they have to do is release the files. We don't need another investigation. You know --

COATES: You don't have faith in the memo that DOJ issued to say, look, we've done everything, we've looked at everything, there's no essentially any more there there. That memo does not satisfy you either.

RASKIN: Well, no, of course not, because it's the contents of the file that the people want to be able to see, because Donald Trump and his team have been saying for months and years that there is a cover up of a larger power elite conspiracy to support Jeffrey Epstein and to participate in a child sex ring.

And look, we're living in an age of serious sex abuse scandals at Michigan State, at Ohio State, in the boy scouts, in the Catholic church and other churches and religious organizations. This is serious business.

Meantime, the Trump administration is pulling the plug on investment in fighting human trafficking. The Department of Justice, the FBI, with civil society groups. This is a serious problem.

So, we take this very seriously, and we've been talking about it for several years. People on the right are also talking about it because Donald Trump was insisting that these files be released.

Just release the files. We don't need another investigation. Jeffrey Epstein is dead at this point. And Maxwell is in prison. Their other co-conspirator also has not survived. So, there's nothing left to investigate. Just turn over the files.

COATES: Well, that's an interesting point, especially because Trump posted on Truth Social, and I'm going to quote him here, why didn't these radical left lunatics release the Epstein files? If there was anything in there that could have hurt the MAGA movement, why didn't they use it?

Well, let me ask you, what do you say to critics who question why it did spend in existence? If the files have been there, why President Biden or his administration under the DOJ as well never released the files?

[23:30:02]

RASKIN: Well, first of all, we've been demanding an investigation into the very gentle slap on the wrist at best that Jeffrey Epstein got from the Department of Justice --

COATES: Hmm.

RASKIN: -- and from prosecutors in Florida. I mean, the guy was convicted of one charge of solicitation when he was having sex with all of these underaged girls and running this predatory ring.

He had to sleep in jail but, otherwise, he was free during the daytime. They went in and it has been seen by people. There was a bedroom. There was an office. I mean, it was crazy, the way that he was treated. There cannot be two separate systems of justice, one for the vast majority of American people and another for power elites who know people and can get away with this stuff.

And I think the reason why liberal Democrats are not leading this movement, MAGA Republicans are leading this movement. And the reason they're leading it is because Donald Trump said for years that they were going to release the files. And now, all of a sudden, he apparently knows what's in the files, and he doesn't want to release them anymore.

We know he was close friends with Jeffrey Epstein. Some people have said that they were best friends for a decade. We know that there are lots of photographs of them and video together.

Perhaps that explains it. Perhaps it's because there are other friends of Donald Trump that are in there. Perhaps he wants to be, you know, using all of this information for purposes of blackmail. I don't know. But he has done a 180-degree turn from what he said, and he's the one who has created this entire crisis.

COATES: Quickly. If Ghislaine Maxwell agrees to testify to Congress, will that satisfy the inquiry?

RASKIN: Well, look, Ghislaine Maxwell is a federal prisoner right now. Obviously, she wants a pardon. So, she will probably sing from whatever hymnal Donald Trump tells her to sing from and will, you know, report exactly what he wants her to say.

So, no, that will not be sufficient. I mean, I'm not saying people behind bars, who are in federal prison, who are looking for a pardon, can't ever testify. She should sure come and testify. But we've got to take that with a grain of salt.

The point is there's an entire file on this case, which they've been demanding be released. Let's start with that. Let's get the documents out, and then we can have a whole bunch of people, including the attorney general, come and testify. I think that Chairman Jordan on our committee said that he wanted her to come in and perhaps to testify about some other stuff, too.

But I can tell you, there's nothing more on the minds of the members of the House Judiciary Committee than the Epstein affair, what has been taking place here and why there's an attempt to cover it all up now.

COATES: Congressman Jamie Raskin, thank you for your time.

RASKIN: It's my pleasure.

COATES: Will he? Won't he? That's the question when it comes to President Trump firing the Fed chair. And if he does, might he actually regret it? That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[23:35:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COATES: Tonight, President Trump throw in gasoline on yet another fire that he tried to extinguish, whether he will fire Fed Chair Jerome Powell.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNKNOWN: Are you thinking of removing him or do you think he resigns before his term is out, Jerome Powell?

TRUMP (via telephone): I'd love if he wants to resign. That would be up to him. They say it would disrupt the market if I did.

UNKNOWN: Yeah.

TRUMP (via telephone): But, you know, there are many people who say he should be removed because of the fraud, of what he's doing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: Now, we know time flies. But just a few hours ago, the president tried to quell any talk of ditching Powell.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: He's doing a lousy job. But no, I'm talking about that. We get -- fortunately, we get to make a change in the next -- what? Eight months or so.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: A few minutes after that, Trump said this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: I don't rule out anything. But I think it's highly unlikely unless he has to leave for fraud.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: A little bit of whiplash is happening. Right? The alleged fraud that Trump is referencing is the costly renovation of the Federal Reserve building. Now, Trump supporters blame it on lavish features. The Fed, though, they deny this and say that inflation and expensive repairs to antiquated utilities are actually to blame for the rising cost.

Possibly at the heart of it all? Trump's frustration at the Fed's reluctance to lower interest rates, of course, as Powell was waiting to see how tariffs might impact the economy.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: He's a terrible -- he's a terrible Fed chair. I was surprised he was appointed.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: So, who appointed Powell again?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: It is my pleasure and my honor to announce my nomination of Jerome Powell to be the next chairman of the Federal Reserve.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: Hmm. With me now, CNN political commentator Karen Finney and Bryan Lanza, a former senior advisor to the Trump 2024 campaign.

All right, Brian, try to make sense of this for me. I mean, is President Trump intending to fire Powell who I'm sure will not go lightly if that happens, or is this a pressure campaign to get him to step down?

BRYAN LANZA, FORMER DEPUTY COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR FOR TRUMP 2016 CAMPAIGN, FORMER SENIOR ADVISER FOR TRUMP-VANCE 2024 PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGN: Listen, I think it's probably both. Right? I think we've seen what pressure campaigns look like. And clearly, the president is doing a pressure campaign.

But it's also a fair question to ask. If there was fraud involved in these overruns, if these was poor planning, then certainly, you know, that's a -- that's a failed leadership of Powell. And do you really trust somebody to be making these strong economic decisions when they're failing to lead at their particular agency?

[23:40:05]

I think it's a valid question, but if fraud is involved, I think all bets are off.

COATES: I almost watched your head roll off its neck just now on the side from eye rolling.

(LAUGHTER)

KAREN FINNEY, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I was just thinking about the dinner the president is having with some of the Qataris who gave him that really nice, beautiful, expensive plane. But anyway --

(CROSSTALK)

COATES: What do you mean?

FINNEY: I -- no, I just -- I digress.

COATES: Oh, I see. I see.

FINNEY: Can we talk about why this is really happening? The reason that Trump is going after Jerome Powell at all is because he has failed on the economy. Inflation --

FINNEY: Trump has.

FINNEY: Trump has. He has failed to lower prices. Consumer confidence is down. Inflation is up. His approval ratings have been down across the board for several weeks now on his handling of the economy. So, he's failing. So, he's got to find a scapegoat. And we've seen this movie before where some -- you know, it's the Democrats' fault, it's this person's fault. So, this feels more like a scapegoat campaign meant to divert attention from the fact that Trump is failing on the number one issue in the election, which is the economy.

COATES: Well, you know, there's a reason the Fed, as you know, is independent. And I want to read for you what "The Wall Street Journal" editor at large, Gerard Baker, had to say. He warned President Trump, and he said to be careful what he wishes for, saying -- quote -- "However bad Fed policy is, if markets think the central bank is run according to the president's priorities, the likely consequence will be tighter, not easier, money."

So, to Karen's point about the confidence people had in terms of running the economy combined with the prospects of hurting the markets or scaring the markets, why is Trump pushing this particular campaign?

LANZA: Well, listen, I think it's important to realize what are western countries doing right now. What are their feds doing? What is the European central bank doing? They're lowering interest rate. What is Japan doing? They're lowering interest rate.

COATES: Should we care about those countries the same way?

LANZA: No, but I think you have to look at the economic winds that are taking place throughout the world. You're seeing -- you know, it's not just the U.S. economy that's having these good wins, it's the rest of the world. What are they doing?

FINNEY: (INAUDIBLE).

LANZA: Well, you know, gas is lower than it is today when he took office. Eggs is lower today when he took office. By the way, inflation is lower today when he took office.

FINNEY: Actually, gas is up again this week. But --

LANZA: I think you asked the American people. But the point is President Trump feels Powell is late to the game here. He sees the rest of the -- the rest of the modernized world dropping interest rates, having the type of impact that's going to lead to growth.

And Powell is holding back. And he's telling us why he's holding back. He's holding back because he doesn't understand what's going to happen with the tariffs. I think it's easy to look at what happened during Trump's first term with what happened with the tariffs. This inflation never came about. This panic never took place. And you should use that data to try to apply to the second term. But he's not doing it.

FINNEY: But in the first term, we didn't see, okay, I'm going to do 50% tariffs. No, I'm going to do 20% tariffs. No, I'm going to do 10%. The amount of volatility across the world, frankly, based on our economy, Powell has a perfectly fine reason to say, you know what, let's see how it shakes out. And look, inflation is up.

But here's the other thing. Can I just point --

LANZA: Inflation is lower today than when Trump took office. Let's be clear about that.

FINNEY: It was up, though, this month. But here's the point, because I watched a lot of the economic T.V. today. They make a great point. So, go ahead and get rid of Powell. What does that do to the markets? You had CEOs telegraphing throughout the day how dangerous that would be to our economy. They want an independent Fed. And lowering rates is not just up to Jerome Powell. It's a board of people who have to vote.

So, you're saying if you get rid of Powell, inject more craziness into the economy, those people then are going to give you what you want? I don't think so. And if he tanks the economy, it's game over.

COATES: We'll see. Karen, Bryan, thank you both so much.

Still ahead, a high-profile meet and greet in Washington. AOC leading Zohran Mamdani on a tour of D.C. today as some prominent Democrats are holding out their support. Any change in minds? That's next.

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[23:45:00]

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COATES: It has been weeks since Zohran Mamdani's upset victory in New York City sent, well, shockwaves across the political country. And today, the Democratic nominee for mayor made his way to the nation's capital to meet with Democratic lawmakers.

But it seems he still has some convincing to do because several prominent Democrats, including Chuck Schumer, Hakeem Jeffries, they haven't embraced Mamdani's candidacy as a self-described Democratic socialist.

Well, today, Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, she organized a breakfast here in D.C. where Mamdani spoke to House Democrats about the lessons he learned from his winning campaign. Earlier, she had this message for her colleagues who remained skeptical of backing him.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNKNOWN (voice-over): What do you say to the skeptics though in the party who want to keep him at arm's distance? Some who have some problems with him, even some fellow New Yorkers --

REP. ALEXANDRIA OCASIO-CORTEZ (D-NY): Yeah.

UNKNOWN (voice-over): -- in the swing districts outside the city?

OCASIO-CORTEZ: Get to know him. Get to know him. You know, this is not about having any kind of hard line. I think that if anybody is skeptical, I would say get to know him. And once you get into a room with him, kick the tires yourself and make your own assessment instead of just kind of making assessments from what you may see on television. (END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: Joining me now on television, Nina Turner. She's a former Ohio State senator and was the co-chair of Bernie Sanders's 2020 presidential campaign. Also with me is John Avlon. He is the chairman of the Citizens Union of New York and a former Democratic candidate for Congress. Good to see both of you here tonight.

I'll begin with you, Nina. I want you to listen to what Congresswoman Pramila Jayapal had to say following her meeting today with Mamdani.

[23:50:00]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. PRAMILA JAYAPAL (D-WA): Look, he's bringing anybody who can see the reality of the success of his candidacy and his campaign together. Anybody that's staying out at this point instead of endorsing this incredible dynamic leader is missing an opportunity.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: What's your reaction, Nina?

NINA TURNER, FORMER OHIO STATE SENATOR, CO-CHAIR OF BERNIE SANDERS'S 2020 PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGN: Well, I fully agree with the representative. She's really laying that out. I mean, what happened to the vote blue no matter who crowd? Whenever there's a progressive running, they kind of muddy the waters.

The people who got the Democratic Party in the mess that it is in right now cannot be the ones to pull it out. And certainly, Representative Mamdani has shown that he can touch the hearts and minds of the people in New York. He won the largest primary in the history of New York.

And, quite frankly, Representative Hakeem Jeffries and Senator Schumer, they need to get on board and support the Democratic nominee and not play games with this. The people of New York, at least in the primary, has spoken.

COATES: John, you ran as a Democrat in a red New York district during the last election. You know politics in New York very well as well. Right now, we are seeing Democrats in more vulnerable districts like Laura Gillen and Tom Souzzi in New York distance themselves from Mamdani. If Democrats want to flip red states in 2026, taking Nina's point, how should they be talking about Mamdani?

JOHN AVLON, CHAIRMAN FOR CITIZENS UNION, PODCAST HOST, FORMER DEMOCRATIC CONGRESSIONAL CANDIDATE: Well, look, first of all, Mamdani deserves a lot of credit for being a talented campaigner, charismatic, using digital media very well, inspiring 30,000 new folks to register. It takes both ways of a party to fly.

But, you know, Mamdani's victory was very impressive in a Democratic primary but he still had the support of less than 10% of all New York voters and, you know, for all the attention being focused on him, not as much being focused on, say, Mikie Sherrill in New Jersey and Abigail Spanberger in Virginia, who are both decidedly centrist.

I think the challenge is that less than 20% of Democrats, even in New York, are self-identified very liberal, which would -- you know, presumably a subset of which are self-described Democratic socialists.

So, he's a very talented campaigner, but I think we should have a -- there will be a competitive general election. And people, you know, can have honest differences and disagreements with the policies he has put out. And those are not worth submerging just because he won a close partisan primary. Those are worth discussing because it's an executive position in America's largest city.

COATES: Tina, you know, one of the issues that came up after the last election was that the Democrats were failing to reach male voters, particularly younger men. Listen to what President Obama said on the former first lady's podcast today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: As -- quote, unquote -- "progressives, Democrats, progressive parents, enlightened ones," we've made that mistake sometimes in terms of our rhetoric where it's like we're constantly talking about it, you know, what's wrong with the boys instead of what's right with them.

We rightly have tried to invest in girls to make sure that there's a level playing field and then they're not barred from opportunities. But we haven't been as willing, I think, to be intentional about investing in the boys, and that has been a mistake.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: Nina, do you agree?

TURNER: I mean, you invest by changing the material conditions, Laura. So, I don't necessarily disagree with President Obama, but it is just stunning to me that Democrats are still searching for the right message.

The right message is this: People need to make a living wage. The right message is this: People need universal health care in the United States of America, which by the way, polls by name, by over 60% across the political spectrum.

What the boys need is exactly what the girls need. They need -- if they have children, they got to be able to afford their childcare. If they want to unionize on their jobs, they want to be able to do that.

So, I don't understand what the big deal is and why again the vote -- the vote no -- vote -- vote blue no matter who crowd because Mamdani has won that primary. Now, all of a sudden, they got to dig a little deeper. Now, all of a sudden, less than a certain percentage of people came out to vote. The bottom line is this: He won the primary --

COATES: Uh-hmm.

TURNER: -- and the Democratic Party, the leadership should get behind him and help to push him over the finish line in the general election.

What is wrong? This label about democratic socialism is simply is that addressing the material needs of the people in this country. And for him, it would be the people of New York. And there's nothing wrong with that message.

[23:55:00]

COATES: John, is the label the impediment from Mamdani or the policy?

AVLON: It's both, and those two things are directly connected. I mean, if you want to -- the affordability crisis is absolutely real, but there are a lot of folks who believe that you need to work with market forces to handle that, and because that's actually more effective way of getting -- getting markets to work. You know, the abundance agendas between streamlining bureaucracy --

COATES: Hmm.

AVLON: -- and regulation so we can encourage the building of more houses. These are -- these are good debate and disagreements to have in their principle. It's not just about a label. But I'll remind folks, this is a label that is not being thrown at him by Republicans, but one he has embraced.

The point President Obama is making is that Democrats have alienated a generation of young people. That's a problem. And Democratic Party needs to reach out and recognize why it has room to grow and not isolate. You got to be growing.

COATES: Nina, John, wish we had to grow this hour, but it has come to an end. Thank you so much, both of you. And thank you all for watching. "Anderson Cooper 360" is next.

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