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Laura Coates Live

Todd Blanche Completed Interview With Ghislaine Maxwell; "Laura Coates Live" Presents "America Asks"; Community Outraged After ICE Arrests Maryland Pastor; Democrats Plot Redistricting Blitz; Investigators Speak Out As Killer Begins Life Sentence. Aired 11p-12a ET

Aired July 25, 2025 - 23:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[23:00:00]

JEMELE HILL, PODCAST HOST, CONTRIBUTING WRITER FOR THE ATLANTIC: Those -- those jokes and those -- that -- that doesn't land the same as it would today. So --

ABBY PHILLIP, CNN ANCHOR AND SENIOR POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Yeah.

HILL: -- I prefer that they would stay away from the questions.

PHILLIP: Yeah. I mean, I want -- I feel like there is so much great talent in the era of all the movies that you all talked about.

UNKNOWN: Of course.

PHILLIP: I -- I don't want to be an old head, but I feel like it's not quite the same as it used to be.

(LAUGHTER)

PHILLIP: All right, everybody, thank you very much. Thanks for watching "NewsNight." You can catch me any time on your favorite social media X, Instagram, and TikTok. In the meantime, "Laura Coates Live" starts right now.

LAURA COATES, CNN HOST AND SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Tonight, Jeffrey Epstein's accomplice getting a deal to speak. But what did she say? And could it lead to a pardon? Plus, a CNN exclusive. A pastor in Maryland detained by ICE and quickly becoming the newest flashpoint in the deportation battle. And later, Beto O'Rourke is back with the dramatic warning to his party. That's tonight on "Laura Coates Live."

Three weeks. Yes, nearly an entire month that the Donald Trump presidency has been consumed by his government's refusal to release the Jeffrey Epstein files. And with each passing day, it's clear that the tactic of ignore it, it will go away, well, it just ain't working. No. That rash is spreading, honey.

And the questions only grow, which is why in just moments from now, we'll be answering your questions live. You can send them in at cnn.com/epsteinquestions. And today, it only made the scrutiny out there worse. Let me catch you up for a second, shall we? So, the deputy attorney general, Todd Blanche who, of course, the president's former personal attorney, he finished his second day of talks with Epstein's convicted accomplice, Ghislaine Maxwell. Yes, he had two whole free days on his calendar for this consequential meeting.

And in the most maybe unsurprising development yet, the word we had been waiting for came up. Now, I don't mean the word pardon, although Trump has not ruled that out, more on that in a moment, but the word immunity, which is fancy talk for don't be shy, tell me, because anything you say actually can't be used against you. Now, it's by no means a get out of jail free card for everything. This was a case of limited immunity, meaning you can't be prosecuted for the specific things you tell us in this instance as long as you're not lying. But her lawyer insists she told the truth and then some.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DAVID OSCAR MARKUS, ATTORNEY FOR GHISLAINE MAXWELL: She literally answered every question. She didn't say, you know what, don't ask me that, I'm not going to talk about this person. She was asked -- maybe about 100 different people. She answered questions about everybody.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: So, what is in it for Ghislaine Maxwell to talk to the DOJ about a hundred different people? Yes, I too thought the hundred numbers seemed a wee bit too perfect, but here's the reality. She is staring at the walls in her Florida prison cell as we speak. Sixteen years, 16 years are left in her sentence for her role in committing these crimes. And there's only one man who could make it go away.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNKNOWN (voice-over): Would you consider a pardon or a commutation for Ghislaine Maxwell?

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: It's something I haven't thought about. It's really something -- it's something -- I'm allowed to do it, but it's something I have not thought about.

A lot of people are asking me about pardons. Obviously, this is no time to be talking about pardons.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: Translation? Not ruling it out. If you're somehow -- you're wondering if Maxwell is hoping for a presidential pardon, well, wonder no more.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARKUS: We haven't spoken to the president or anybody about a pardon just yet. And -- and, you know, listen, the president this morning said he had the power to do so. We hope he exercises that power in the right and just way.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: Notice the word yet. Look, we actually have no clue whatsoever if Trump is going to pardon Maxwell or how he has considered or not considered it. We don't know if the DOJ might seek to lower her sentence, which they could try to do. We could go all around (INAUDIBLE) trying to predict every single point.

But it is quite extraordinary that we're even talking about that possibility today because remember what this started as. It was a call to release not Maxwell, but the Epstein files. Why? To shed light on what the government knew about the entire ordeal.

[23:05:02]

Information that could help the hundreds and hundreds of victims who have been demanding answers for years. Suddenly, though, we're talking about the possibility that the only person who was brought to justice for Epstein's crimes in that matter could get leniency.

And while it's entirely possible, entirely possible that Maxwell's interview could be entirely helpful, don't forget what the FBI said in that now infamous memo nearly four weeks ago. That was when they wrote and distributed after the review of their files. And I quote, in it, they said, "We did not uncover evidence that could predicate an investigation against uncharged third parties." Let me read that again. "We did not uncover evidence that could predicate an investigation against uncharged third parties."

You have to wonder, can two days with Ghislaine Maxwell change all that? Well, we'll have to see. You've got questions, we've got answers.

And joining me now, editor-in-chief and owner of All Rise News, Adam Klasfeld, former federal prosecutor at the Southern District of New York, Sarah Krissoff, former state attorney for Palm Beach County, Dave Aronberg. Good to have you all here on a Friday.

Got so many questions from people in America asking about this case. Let's get started. I'll go to you first, Sarah. This is Paul, and Paul asks this question: If she is innocent, as she claims, why would she need any immunity? Sarah?

SARAH KRISSOFF, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR, SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK: So, any decent defense attorney is going to insist on this type of immunity agreement here. I think there are very few lawyers in the country that would walk their clients, particularly ones who've already been convicted of incredibly serious crimes, into this scenario and not insist on this type of agreement.

But it is very limited. This just prevents them from using the statements that she says in that room against her. But it allows them to, you know, follow leads from those statements, investigate, and do all of those things. COATES: Good point. Dave, Amy asked this question: How likely do you think it is that Ghislaine Maxwell will actually spill the tea on everyone? And I should note, her attorney says that she was asked about around 100 people during today's meetings, yesterday's meeting as well.

DAVE ARONBERG, FORMER STATE ATTORNEY, PALM BEACH COUNTY: Laura, she's going to give Donald Trump what he wants to hear. He's going to hear from her that he did nothing wrong. And as far as spill the tea on others, she could try. She's pretty immune right now from a libel lawsuit or defamation lawsuit. She's stuck behind bars.

COATES: Hmm.

ARONBERG: But she will do anything she can to try to get a pardon. And if that means selling out other people she knows, well, maybe she does it. But remember this: If she really had the tea on so many others, why didn't she give it up at her trial? She could have saved herself from 20 years in prison. She didn't do it then.

I think she also has a credibility problem. Anything she gives up will have to be corroborated. After all, she was charged by the Trump administration in 2020 for perjury. They said she was a liar then. But today, they're interested in believing her.

COATES: Remember, one of the lead prosecutors in that case, Maurene Comey, has since been fired from the SDNY. Adam, I've got a question from my home state of Minnesota. This is Timothy from Rochester, and he asks this question: What does it mean that he's in the Epstein files? Does it just mean that he was an acquaintance of Epstein?

ADAM KLASFELD, EDITOR-IN-CHIEF AND CO-FOUNDER, ALL RISE NEWS: Well, being in the Epstein files itself doesn't mean much of anything. But people can infer from the context. What is the -- in the Epstein files? Is it a relationship? Is it drawing a picture of a naked woman in a warm birthday message? Is it -- does it reveal something about the relationship between a person and Epstein, a financial relationship? How long did it last?

And I think that once the information is exposed, people can draw their own conclusions, and that's why so many people are fighting for transparency.

COATES: Good point. We've got another one. This is John. I'll answer this one. He asks, who currently has the Epstein files? Well, first, we're talking about the Epstein files. We don't mean every single piece of paper that has ever been written about him. The investigative files are the ones that are currently stored in an FBI system that's called Sentinel. The records have over 300 gigabytes of data and audio and video and photographs related to the investigation, the first one in the mid-2000s and the second one in 2019.

[23:10:04]

And remember, there are also grand jury transcripts. The DOJ wanted some of those released. The judge has denied that, so far, in Florida. So, the files in total we're talking -- we're talking about this instance are the investigative files, and that's in that Sentinel. We'll see where they stay.

Sarah, I have a question for you now. Erika asked this question: Could Congress call Maurene Comey for information on Epstein?

KRISSOFF: Yeah. I mean, obviously, Maurene was one of the lead prosecutors on the Epstein case and then the Maxwell case. There, I think, is still one prosecutor that was involved that is left at the U.S. Attorney's Office in the Southern District of New York, but most of the others have left.

But Congress could certainly compel her to testify. She may be eager to testify, in fact. She hasn't sort of spoken up about why she was fired. She did, you know, send an email to her colleagues saying she didn't know the basis of the firing and expressing her regret about it. But I think, you know, that is an avenue Congress certainly may pursue.

COATES: She may be here to take off the so-called muzzle that prosecutors, while they're in the DOJ, have to necessarily wear. We'll see.

Dave, I have a question from Sarah from Baton Rouge, and here's the question. She asks, has anyone other than Ghislaine Maxwell been charged with any crimes relating to Epstein? Of course, other than Epstein himself.

ARONBERG: Only Jean-Luc Brunel. He's this French model scout. He was an associate of Jeffrey Epstein. He was charged with crimes related to the Epstein case. He faced charges of sexual assault and sex trafficking. This was over decades, but some related to Epstein stuff. And like Jeffrey Epstein, he was found dead by apparent suicide in his jail cell. So, let the conspiracy theories continue.

COATES: Continue they do. Let's continue with one more question. I think, Adam, this is for you. Joanna asked this question. We got this question several times. Who are the parents of the abused? She asks, where were the parents of the underage girls? Interesting. Your response?

KLASFELD: Yes, it is an interesting question and a pattern that emerged throughout the trial. I remember attending it. There was -- Epstein targeted the vulnerable. And often, the vulnerable were the vulnerable because of difficult family lives.

It was a common theme in the testimony and happened again and again and again. It's what allowed his pattern, what has been called a pyramid scheme of sexual abuse, to continue, that he would target one girl, pay them money to find other vulnerable people for his predation.

COATES: Predatory to say the least. Everyone, I have a rapid-fire question for you all time. What you think? What are the odds that the Epstein files ever see the light of day at least in the near future? Let's go to you, Dave. What's your answer? Yes or no? Any good odds? ARONBERG: In the near future, 2%. They're too damaging to Trump. By the way, I don't think Trump is guilty of any crimes here, but he's sure acting guilty. So, that's not coming out.

COATES: Sarah?

KRISSOFF: I do not think they're going to be released in any wholesale manner. There will be little bits and pieces leaked out that are helpful to the administration, but the task of sort of unleashing all of them is too enormous. As political consequences, there's difficulties of redacting all the information in there. I just don't think it's going to happen.

COATES: Adam?

KLASFELD: I would say something probably close to Sarah here. It won't be a sudden flood all at once. There was a story this week that came out. The Second Circuit allowed more transparency to come over the Virginia Giuffre versus Maxwell file.

I think there will be more than people expect, just because that has been the case when there's massive attention. I think during previous lawsuits against JP Morgan, Deutsche Bank, there's a massive public record that accrues when there is a tension in litigation. And now, there's both.

COATES: I'm going to give the most loyally answer of all. It's possible that you all could be right or wrong. Thank you so much for all of you out there. I appreciate it. And thank you for your questions out there. Keep them coming. We'd love to hear from you and have you participate in what America wants to know most.

[23:15:00]

But wait, there is more, because I want to bring in senior politics reporter who covers the Trump White House for Axios. Marc Caputo joins us now. Marc, I'm glad you're here. Welcome.

So, President Trump, he says he has not considered giving Ghislaine Maxwell a pardon or a commutation, but he didn't rule it out explicitly either. What is he saying behind the scenes? Do we know? Are Republicans on board if he were to contemplate that?

MARC CAPUTO, SENIOR POLITICS REPORTER, AXIOS: I'm not aware of him saying anything about it behind the scenes. My best guess is that today is kind of the first time it has really been broached publicly.

What's not going to surprise me is if in the coming days, weeks, months or years, he starts talking about it to other people asking, hey, what do you think of this idea? Whether he's going to do it or not, I have no idea.

There's always the possibility also of a commutation. Never really sure with Donald Trump.

COATES: Hmm. CAPUTO: And while I'm not positive, this is the first time, like his reaction to it, is sort of indicative of him not really having thought about it a lot. One of the things with Trump is his sort of reactionary defiance and the smart answer. The politically correct answer would be like, no, I'm not considering that. But Donald Trump doesn't want to be boxed in like that. And so, if you ask him a question like that, his natural instincts kick in like, well, I've got the right to do it, so maybe I will.

COATES: Politically, particularly within the Republican Party, let's say he was considering it and leaning towards either a commutation or a pardon, and that's a hypothetical, how will that go over among Republicans?

CAPUTO: I would imagine not well. I mean, I can't -- I can't -- I never thought we'd be in this situation talking about this, anyway. So, I mean, you're asking me --

COATES: Yeah. Well --

CAPUTO: -- to predict this kind of almost --

(LAUGHTER)

-- absurd scenarios which keep happening. So, obviously, it wouldn't go over very well. I think a certain amount of time needs to play out before this becomes real serious. It's obviously not very serious now. It's still an open-ended question like exactly why is the deputy attorney general --

COATES: Yeah.

CAPUTO: -- not some line attorney, doing this sort of questioning. There are a lot of unusual circumstances with this case. It's just hard to begin to guess where the weirdness begins and sort of the normalcy takes over. I don't see a lot of normalcy so far.

COATES: Well said. Okay, another week, another Trump take on Epstein more broadly. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: Are you still talking about Jeffrey Epstein?

I know it's a hoax. It's started by Democrats. It has been run by the Democrats for four years.

They should focus on the fact that Larry Summers from Harvard, that Bill Clinton, who you know very well, and lots of other friends, really close friends of Jeffrey, Summers, should be spoken about.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: So, you notice over those different statements, you had this evolution of his take on it --

CAPUTO: Right.

COATES: -- from week one to now week three, and we're almost past that. He wanted to move on to then try to pivot attention to other Epstein associates. What's the end game here for him? I mean, it seems as though the strategy of trying to take the temperature in the room on a daily basis is not working because it's getting up there.

CAPUTO: Yeah. I'm not one of those people who subscribes the idea that Donald Trump sits around and strategizes about stuff. He just says sort of what he wants to say, and then when it's time for him to move on, he says new things.

The White House is a continuation of his campaign, it's his campaign staff, lot of the upper echelons of it, and they got accustomed to and they signed up for knowing that Donald Trump is unpredictable and he says things that no other politician would say, and that's sort of built into the DNA of understanding that Donald Trump is just going to be Donald Trump.

The line you hear in the White House is, no panic, don't panic, this is going to go away. And if something comes up, they'll deal with it. When they deal with it, this is the president, the president's going to say X today and Y tomorrow and Z then, and then the White House is just going to do its thing.

So, there's no real indication that they're sitting around and coming up with messages and ideas for Donald Trump. I mean, after all, if you watch his speeches, Donald Trump has these speeches, he gave these speeches, they're only supposed to be like maybe an hour long, maybe 45 minutes. They would be, you know, an hour and 15 minutes or something like that, and the reason is he just goes off script and says what he wants.

COATES: What will he say to this one next week? We'll have to see. Thank you, Marc.

CAPUTO: Stay tuned. Yes.

(LAUGHTER)

Stay tuned.

COATES: Stay tuned. Up next, he is a pastor. He has no criminal record. He has been here for nearly 30 years. So, why is the government focused on deporting him?

[23:20:01]

We'll explain next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COATES: They were treating them worse than dogs. That's a direct quote from the daughter of a Maryland pastor and father of three describing the conditions her father endured while in ICE custody. Pastor Daniel Fuentes Espinal was arrested by ICE this week for overstaying his visa 24 years ago. His daughter tells CNN her dad was picking up food from McDonald's when he noticed an unmarked vehicle was following him. She says he was then pulled over and handcuffed without any explanation.

Well, today, members of his community held a protest in Easton, Maryland to demand his release.

[23:25:00]

Online court records in Maryland indicate that Fuentes Espinal has no criminal history. Still, ICE is defending his arrest tonight, saying -- quote -- "Fuentes entered the United States on a six-month visa and never left in 24 years. It is a federal crime to overstay the authorized period of time granted under a visitor's visa" -- unquote.

Joining me now is Len Foxwell. He is a close family friend of Pastor Fuentes Espinal. Len, thank you for being here. You heard those comments from the pastor's daughter, Clarissa, where she was describing how her father was being treated. I understand that he has since been transferred from Maryland to now a different center in Louisiana. What is he --

LEN FOXWELL, CLOSE FAMILY FRIEND OF PASTOR FUENTES ESPINAL: That's correct.

COATES: How is he? Where is he tonight? What can you tell us?

FOXWELL: So, Laura, thank you so much for having me on. He is in a federal detention facility in Louisiana. And while the conditions are spartan, they're not ideal by any stretch of the imagination, they are far upgrade from what he was enduring at the ICE detention facility in Baltimore.

He was living really in inhumane conditions. He was sleeping on a bench. He was deprived of showers, of just basic necessities like brushing his teeth. And he stayed in this facility for three days before he was transferred out to his new detention center in Louisiana.

And his daughter, Clarissa, has spoken to him this afternoon.

COATES: Hmm.

FOXWELL: And all things considered, he is in remarkably good spirits. She reports that he's actually preaching to the other detainees at this facility. So, I guess preachers are going to preach.

COATES: It must be so hard on the family. Just to hear, read his daughter's words and imagine that this has now happened this day, that I'm sure he had feared, could happen at some point. But do you know why they were following him that day? What led to any of this?

FOXWELL: No idea, Laura. So just, again, for background, and you alluded to it in your intro, Pastor Fuentes Espinal is a pillar of our community. He is a faith leader. He is a minister of a successful Nazarene church. He is known throughout Easton and the greater area for his unconditional generosity.

If anybody needs a hot meal, he brings them into his home and seats them at the table. People need clothes at their most vulnerable point in their lives, he opens his closet. If they need a place to stay, he provides it. And he does it without asking for anything in return. And he doesn't expect or want any public credit for it. This man is -- he lives his life in the teachings of his faith.

And it's just devastating to this community. It is traumatic to his family. His daughter is expecting and this has inflicted unbelievable stress upon her and the entire family. Twenty-four years, and he has never been convicted or charge of a crime.

COATES: But that point -- I mean, your esteem for him is obvious. I can see why, based on what you've said. It's unbelievable to think about what an impact he had on your community in particular. But then you have the government's position. And they point to that number, 24 years. And they're saying he overstayed his visa. That was a crime. What is your reaction to what they're saying as justifying his detention?

FOXWELL: But Laura, I think I have two responses. First, he has been working for years to obtain his green card. And it is a bureaucratic nightmare. It is riddled with problems. It's riddled with errors. And his family has been trying for years to navigate this bureaucratic maze so that he can have his paperwork in order and be granted official permanent residency. And they have felt for years as if the deck is stacked against them despite having spent a considerable amount of money and time and effort.

The other thing I'll say is that this is not what Donald Trump campaigned on. And this is not what the American people ever asked for. It is not what they want. This does nothing to secure the southern border. This does nothing to safeguard families and communities from gangs and violent criminals. All the stuff that we heard from the campaign has nothing to do with the case of Pastor Fuentes Espinal. He is a model leader of our community. He's a man of faith.

[23:30:00]

And tonight, he is sitting in a jail cell hundreds of miles from his family who is devastated, and they just want him released and returned home to Easton and reunited with the family that loves him.

COATES: Len Foxwell, thank you for joining me tonight. I appreciate that.

FOXWELL: Laura, thank you so much.

COATES: Well, there is a political tit for tat that's continuing. Some Democratic governors now saying if Texas redraws its congressional maps to pick up more Republican seats, they'll do the same in their states, but this time for Democrats. Well, my next guest says, why wait for that?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BETO O'ROURKE, FORMER TEXAS REPRESENTATIVE, FORMER PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Why the (bleep) are we responding and reacting to the other side instead of taking the offense on these things?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: That's Beto O'Rourke, and he's live with me right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[23:35:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COATES: Democrats using the Epstein files to turn up the heat on Republicans. Take a look at the new ad blitz that they launched in swing districts today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. MARJORIE TAYLOR GREENE (R-GA): This is a serious issue. The highest volume of calls into my office have been about Epstein.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: You could say they're trying to fight fire with fire, and that's something that my next guest thinks the party should do more of, especially when it comes to his own state of Texas where Governor Greg Abbott is holding a special legislative session to redraw the state's congressional maps just four years since they last did.

And I mind you, states redistrict once a decade, that's the typical way of doing it. It's based, of course, on new census information that comes in once a decade.

Well, President Trump encouraged Abbott to do it, saying that Texas could gain as many as five additional Republican seats. Now, some blue state governors, they're warning they'll retaliate.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. GAVIN NEWSOM (D-CA): Things have changed, so too must we. If we don't put a stake into the heart of this administration, there may not be an election in 2028.

GOV. JB PRITZKER (D-IL): First of all, they're changing the rules in the middle of the game. That's the way I look at it. This is cheating.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: With me now, former Texas Congressman and Democratic presidential candidate Beto O'Rourke. Welcome. Congressman, you say it is time to fight fire with fire over gerrymandering, redistricting. Why do you think it's best for Democrats to bypass the usual once every 10 years process?

O'ROURKE: Well, it's because if we don't, we're going to lose our last best hope of regaining power in the United States Congress. And without that power, there will be no check on Trump's lawlessness, no accountability for his crimes and corruption. And as Governor Newsom just said, we may not have free and fair elections in 2028.

And Trump realizes that as well. And he realizes because his policies are so deeply unpopular. He cannot win if it's a fair fight. And so, he's going to try to steal these five seats.

Now, if we just sit back and watch him do it and complain about it and go to the courts, well, the game is already lost. So, I appreciate those governors who are seizing the initiative and at least talking about responding.

But Laura, what I'd love them to do is to take a step further. And instead of waiting for Texas to throw the first punch, I'd like them to redraw their districts to Democratic advantage so that we fight fire with fire.

For far too long, Democrats have cared more about being right than they have about being in power, while Republicans have only cared about being in power. We got to get serious about this if we're going to win and save the country.

COATES: Well, do you risk losing the moral high ground? The Democrats, frankly, have been very keen on preserving. I mean, the idea that they are the party, we'll say, that would not engage in this. The ethical party, they want people to believe they would not do this. And I often hear the criticism of Democrats where they say, you know, you, guys, are playing checkers and they're doing something entirely different. Is it worth it to risk potentially losing that level of maybe soapboxes?

O'ROURKE: You know, it's like we're playing a basketball game, Republicans versus Democrats, and the refs have just stopped making any of the calls. And so, the other side is punching us in the face, and we keep calling for the refs who aren't there, we keep looking at the crowd asking, are you seeing what I'm seeing?

But none of that is going to get us where we need to be. We got to start punching, and we got to start winning, and we got to be focused on what it's going to take to make sure that we save America, because if we fail in this, there'll be some answering to do for why we didn't step up and do what it took when everything was on the line.

And so, I want us to do absolutely everything we can from those governors in California and Illinois and other places to supporting state House Democrats to break quorum, to not deny their Republican colleagues the majority they need to redraw these maps in the first place.

COATES: It sounds like, and many voters believe, that strength is such an essential component to which party they are drawn to. I wonder if that is the appropriate route to do. But, as you know, this is hardly the first time that redistricting has been controversial in your state of Texas. In 2003, Democrats left the state to break a quorum and stop the state from redistricting.

[23:40:02]

It didn't work, and they risk fines and arrests if they now flee this time. So, what should the Texas lawmakers do next? Is it time to skip town again? What?

O'ROURKE: Yeah, it's time for them to break this quorum. But even more importantly, it's time for all of us to have their backs. It's going to be a very expensive proposition. We all need to chip in. We're going to need our encouragement. They're going to need the moral support, our ability to explain to our friends and neighbors just why they are doing this.

The Republicans with Trump's request are trying to steal the election of 2026 right now in the summer of 2025 right here in Texas. I mean, they may very well be the last best hope for America.

And not only, Laura, do I think that they can prevail by breaking quorum, I think they're going to inspire this country, which wants to see the underdog against the most powerful man on the planet who's supported by the wealthiest people anywhere in the world. They want to see this guy meet his match by these underdogs, scrappy Democrats in the state of Texas and their friends in these other states who have the ability to seize the initiative now before it's too late.

COATES: I wonder if it will indeed become the blueprint. But, you know, Democrats have been focusing a great deal, much less on gerrymandering and redistricting, and they have been on Jeffrey Epstein and getting that data out. Do you think that Democrats risk going overboard with their focus on Epstein?

O'ROURKE: I love that Democrats in Congress have been focused on getting the files out and transparency for these girls and women who are raped and abused. And, as you know, though Speaker Mike Johnson tried to send all members of Congress home, those Democrats who persisted and were able to get a subpoena out before Congress convened are going to help us to get the truth. That's what those victims deserve. That's what the American public deserves. So, I'm glad that they did that.

And while they're doing that, though, we've got to focus on this fight right here in Texas because Trump is the master of distraction and division and will keep us from our eyes staying on the prize, and that prize is the 2026 election, and doing whatever it takes, being ruthless about the pursuit of power so that we actually win it, so that there is still a democracy at the end of the day in America and so that we can save this country for our friends, for our family, for those whom we live with, for the generations that will follow ours. They're counting on us right now at this moment of truth.

COATES: Beto O'Rourke, thank you for joining.

BETO O'ROURKE: Thank you, Laura.

COATES: A murderer now behind bars. But the question still remains. Why did Bryan Kohberger kill four college students? CNN's Jean Casarez is asking the investigators, and she's here with her interview next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[23:45:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COATES: Victims' families, investigators, and the lead prosecutor all speaking out today, just two days after Bryan Kohberger was sentenced to life for the murders of four University of Idaho students. That sentence was due to a plea deal that he made with prosecutors. Without that deal, he could have been facing the death penalty.

And the families of the victims? Well, they're split. Some think the death penalty would have been the highest level of justice. Here's Kaylee Goncalves's father speaking to CNN about that very thing tonight.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

STEVE GONCALVES, FATHER OF KAYLEE GONCALVES: Family members reached out to me and said if they would have known the details of what happened to Kaylee, they never would have taken that deal. So, he had a strategy and it was to deceit us. You know, to hide the facts from the public because why else would you hide these facts from the public? Because it would make them outraged.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: Earlier today, the prosecutor told CNN that he respects the Goncalves's family and believed the deal was -- quote -- "the best outcome we could hope for in this case."

CNN's Jean Casarez is on the ground in Moscow, where she interviewed lead investigators on the case today. Jean, the big question that still remains is, why? Did the investigators find evidence of a connection between Kohberger and these four students?

JEAN CASAREZ, CNN NEWS CORRESPONDENT: They definitively say they did not. And they backed that up by telling me, and I read this in the documents, they subpoenaed the records from every single social media outlet, and they got the returns. And they looked through thousands upon thousands of pictures and videos and what was written. They said it took them months. And then they even found fake sites of where Kohberger is following Kaylee and Maddie, and they had to discern whether it was real or fake, and they were all fake.

Also, he had a number of devices, and they found that he had cleared them, he had wiped them. But then he had an active phone. And on that phone, they found pictures. And what they find? He was taking pictures of the investigation here in Moscow and the publicity of what was happening in the investigation after the murders. That was on his phone. That is classic, Laura. And let's listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CASAREZ: It has been said that there were pictures on his phone of groups of young people in Moscow, and that Maddie, possibly Kaylee, were in some of those photos. Is there any truth to that?

LT. DARREN GILBERTSON, LEAD INVESTIGATOR ON KOHBERGER CASE, IDAHO STATE POLICE: No, no truth at all. To this date, we have never found a single connection, anything, between any of the four victims or the other two surviving roommates with him.

[23:50:00]

No pictures, no texts.

CASAREZ: When he was in graduate school in Pennsylvania, he had a project, and he developed a questionnaire, sending to convicted murderers around the country. What their state of mind was before they committed the murder, during the time they were committing the murder, and after they committed the murder. What does that tell you about his state of mind in doing a project like that?

GILBERTSON: Yeah, I think he's -- he's very consumed with it. It's hard to not look at it and view that as part of the overall -- is that -- is that part of the why? Is that part of why he did this?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: I mean, Jean, there were documents released this week about chilling details about what happened the night of the murders. What did the investigators tell you?

CASAREZ: Well, Xana Kernodle and Kaylee, very fast. Kaylee, her face was unrecognizable. I asked him about that. I said, could that have been the fists of Bryan Kohberger? He said, no. I said, could it have been knife wounds on her face? No. He said, there's something else, and we probably will never know about it. As far as Xana, that room had the most blood of all. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CASAREZ: Documents that have not been public have now been made public. And Xana Kernodle, found on the floor, over 50 stab wounds. Many of them, much of them, defensive. Can you -- can you explain that?

ANTHONY DAHLINGER, MOSCOW POLICE CHIEF: She fought. She fought back. And she fought hard.

GILBERTSON: That's our belief. We know that Xana was up. She had just received her DoorDash shortly before this happened and was eating her food during this time. And we believe that she heard something going on upstairs and at least started in that direction. But we don't know how far she got or whether she went up the stairs or all the way up the stairs. We're not sure, but I think she headed in that direction. CASAREZ: Yeah. And she was able to fight back because she was awake.

GILBERTSON: Yes.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: Jean, unbelievable reporting on this story. We still have so much more to learn. Thank you.

CASAREZ: Thank you.

COATES: Up next, a special superhero mission that is making a difference.

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[23:55:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COATES: Every day, heroes walk among us, often keeping their costume, do-gooder deeds under wraps. We're not talking Peter Parker or Clark Kent. In this case, we're talking about a real person, Yuri Williams of Long Beach, California. This week, CNN Heroes salutes the founder of "A Future Superhero and Friends."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

YURI WILLIAMS, CNN HERO (voice-over): My name is Yuri Williams. By day, I'm a deputy juvenile correction officer. And by night --

WILLIAMS: That's for you.

WILLIAMS (voice-over): -- I'm trying to uplift as many human beings and animals as possible.

I came up with the idea of dressing up as superheroes. Stormtrooper, Kylo Ren, Spider-Man, Miles Morales, Deadpool, but my favorite, favorite is probably Mandalorian. I visit the houseless community, veterans, the elderly, children with special needs, disabilities.

WILLIAMS: Anybody that's in need of any type of service or help that I can provide, I reach out.

WILLIAMS (voice-over): When I'm out doing the hospital, I bring as many toys as possible. I go get dressed, and that's when the magic begins.

WILLIAMS: Good morning, guys and young lady. Cake for you.

WILLIAMS (voice-over): Sometimes, I go out with my sidekick.

WILLIAMS: I like that smile on your face.

WILLIAMS (voice-over): It's making a distraction wearing the costume but, at the same time, I'm able to help them because they feel like they can trust me.

WILLIAMS: Another hug? Oh, my goodness.

WILLIAMS (voice-over): It's healing for them.

UNKNOWN: Thank you.

WILLIAMS: You're welcome. You be good, alright?

UNKNOWN: Okay.

WILLIAMS (voice-over): This all began in 2009 after losing my mother to an eight-year battle of cancer. My mother was a loving individual. She was a probation officer in the community.

WILLIAMS: Everyone respected her.

WILLIAMS (voice-over): I fell into a five-year depression period where I almost lost myself. What I did was come up with this nonprofit to honor her and to thank her for being the mother that she was.

"A Future Superhero and Friends" is based in Southern California, but we've been across all 50 states five and a half times. Two more states and it's going to be six times.

UNKNOWN: Cheese.

(LAUGHTER)

WILLIAMS (voice-over): Over the years now, I've probably visited over 25,000 plus individuals in need.

WILLIAMS: Beautiful.

WILLIAMS (voice-over): I'm willing to travel anywhere by plane, boat, whatever I need to do to make an impact on somebody's life.

WILLIAMS: I love you.

WILLIAMS (voice-over): I just want to be able to do this every single day, and I think I would be satisfied.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: That's wonderful man. To nominate someone you think should be a CNN hero, go to cnn.com/heroes. Nominations close July 31st. Thank you all for watching. "Anderson Cooper 360" is next.

[23:59:58]

And make sure you check out the new episode of the CNN Original Series, "Live Aid: When Rock 'N' Roll Took on the World." That's Sunday night, 9 p.m.