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Laura Coates Live
Trump Threatens More Broadcasters After Kimmel Suspension; Late Night Hosts Rally Around Jimmy Kimmel Amid Suspension; Does Kimmel Have Grounds to Sue the Government? Aired 11p-12a ET
Aired September 18, 2025 - 23:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[23:00:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ABBY PHILLIP, CNN ANCHOR AND SENIOR POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Before we go, a quick programming note. Sara Sidner meets the black and white sides of an old-fashioned southern family united by a dark secret. See what happened on "The Whole Story with Anderson Cooper," Sunday night at 10 o'clock on CNN.
And thank you very for watching "NewsNight." You can catch me any time on your favorite social media X, Instagram, and TikTok. "Laura Coates Live" starts right now.
LAURA COATES, CNN HOST AND SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Tonight, it looks like threats are as simple as one, two, three, A, B, C. President Trump threatens more T.V. broadcasters after Jimmy Kimmel's suspension, and the next show on his administration's list may be another A, B, C staple.
Plus, those other late-night TV hosts, they are rallying around Jimmy Kimmel and telling the president they aren't backing down. And does Kimmel have a case against the government, even when his company is the one that suspended him? Why some are suggesting he should sue. Tonight on "Laura Coates Live."
So, if you thought Jimmy Kimmel getting yanked off the air was wild last night, well, wait until you hear what happened today. Do you remember Kimmel's mean tweets segment? Well, this is that on steroids. But who's laughing? It has got huge implications for free speech and politics and big business.
We've got the Trump administration threatening more networks and already massive political divide getting even deeper. And man, now, we're learning what was happening behind the scenes before Kimmel got pulled. And tonight, the president is not even pumping the brakes. Nope, he is keeping his foot on the gas.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNKNOWN (voice-over): Who would you like to see replace Kimmel on late night?
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: A lot of people -- anybody could replace him. Guy had no talent. Kimmel had -- look, he was fired. He had no talent. He's a whack job, but he had no talent. And more importantly than talent, he had no because a lot of people have no talent. They get ratings. But he had no ratings.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COATES: Tell me how you really feel. You know, what we're learning tonight, though, doesn't actually line up with what was said. And CNN's Elizabeth Wagmeister is hearing a lot about how this went down. And it was no easy decision for ABC and Disney. One source says Kimmel was planning to address the uproar about the comments about Kirk's assassination in yesterday's monologue. Remember, those original comments were made on Monday. And it was not, apparently, going to be all kumbaya in that monologue.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ELIZABETH WAGMEISTER, CNN ENTERTAINMENT CORRESPONDENT: A source described that monologue to me as very hot. And that is when the decision came down to Bob Iger and Dana Walden, I am told, and that they made the decision to indefinitely pull his show off the air. I am told that Disney has expressed that they would like to move forward with Jimmy Kimmel, but what I have been told is that the temperature needs to be taken down.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COATES: So, Kimmel is off the air. But if that was in your mind going to cool things down, well, think again. The Democrats are furious. Republicans are furious, frankly, too. But for getting put the thumb on the scale analogy, they're accusing the administration of strong- arming ABC to sideline them. And the president himself is cranking up the dial, now threatening that broadcast networks may lose their licenses.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Well, I read someplace that the networks were 97% against me. I get 97% negative. And yet I won it easily. I won in all seven spring (ph) states, the popular, won everything. I mean, they're getting a license. I would think maybe their license should be taken away. It will be up to Brendan Carr.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COATES: Up to Brendan Carr, Trump's pick for the chairman of the Federal Communications Commission. That's the same Brendan Carr who yesterday gave the warning to companies like ABC, we can do this the easy way or the hard way. Coercion? Me? Well, tonight, he's saying he did not coerce ABC into taking Kimmel off the air and that it was purely a business decision by his company, as in Kimmel's company.
So, what do you think about stripping network broadcasters of their licenses? Well, Carr himself is dropping some breadcrumbs.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) BRENDAN CARR, CHAIR, FEDERAL COMMUNICATIONS COMMISSION: I don't think this is the last shoe to drop. This is a massive shift that's taking place in the media ecosystem. Look, we're going to continue to hold these broadcasters accountable to the public interest.
[23:05:02]
And if broadcasters don't like that, simple solution. They can turn their license into the FCC. There are other things that we can do with it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COATES: Easy way, hard way. But what could be the next shoe to drop? Well, you know what? We have an idea because Carr is previewing what may be his next target. He's saying it's worth looking at "The View" and whether it should lose an FCC rule exemption for being a news show.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CARR (voice-over): I would assume you can make the argument that "The View" is a bona fide news show, but I'm not so sure about that, and I think it's worthwhile to have the FCC look into whether "The View" and some of the programs that you have still qualify as bona fide news programs.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COATES: Hmm. You know, if Trump is hoping to silence his critics, the joke may be on him because tonight, late-night T.V. hosts are turning his administration into the punchline.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
STEPHEN COLBERT, COMEDIAN AND WRITER: Now, this may seem bad, but Carr was quick to reassure everyone, posting, well, "This may be an unprecedented decision. It is important for broadcasters to push back on Disney programming that they determine falls short of community values." Well, you know what my community values are, Buster? Freedom of speech.
(APPLAUSE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COATES: Let's begin now with CNN contributor and host of the "On" and "Pivot" podcasts, Kara Swisher. Also, executive editor at "Deadline," Dominic Patten. Good to see both of you.
I mean, it was predictable that there would be a response at the very least from late-night T.V. hosts like Colbert and otherwise. But Dominic, let me begin with you here because the FCC chairman warning that the upending of T.V. programming -- quote -- "is not done yet." Now, is that the same thing as you ain't seen nothing yet here? T.V. execs taking that threat tonight? DOMINIC PATTEN, EXECUTIVE EDITOR, DEADLINE HOLLYWOOD: I think T.V.
execs are taking that threat very seriously, Laura, not just at ABC, but everywhere because, of course, as well as you mentioning how Brendan Carr is now turning onto ABC's "The View," long a thorn in Donald Trump's paw, of course, they've also talked about Trump himself, talks about Jimmy Fallon and Seth Meyers.
COATES: Uh-hmm.
PATTEN: Look, they're trying to bend everyone down and break them. And they're trying to do it in the harshest way they can, which is investigations, licensing reevaluations, and scaring people. And, as we know, that's what schoolyard bullies do. And, as of yet, no one seems to be the one who wants to push back.
So, yes, I think there's a lot of trepidation. I think there's a lot of fear. I also think Brendan Carr is talking to his audience of one, as usual. And his audience of one gave him the biggest compliment you can get in Trump land when he called him a tough guy on Air Force One today. That's all they love to hear from the president. And now, galvanizes this even more, I think.
COATES: Well, Kara, there are many ominous warnings and terrifying statements being made. Many are looking at what's happening right now and are wondering if they can even recognize this country. David Letterman, the former longtime late-night host, in a new interview, he said, we all see where this is going, correct? It's managed media. Do you agree? I mean, who's calling the shots here?
KARA SWISHER, CNN CONTRIBUTOR, OPINION CONTRIBUTING WRITER FOR THE NEW YORK TIMES, PODCAST HOST: Well, you know, let's pick it up with Brendan Carr again because I think, first of all, he can't -- he never met a camera he didn't want to talk into or something. And he's saying way too much stuff, a lot of it ridiculous.
I mean, he's the thirstiest Trump administration person you can see. He just desperately needs attention. And so, he says ridiculous things like, you make it the hard way or the easy way we should look into that, like he's playing a character of some sort, wildly incompetent for the job here. He's just throwing around his weight in the way he thinks he can.
But Hollywood executives who were already in economic troubles, you know, audiences are declining for a lot of these shows. There's a lot of issues around costs. They worry very much. And then on the other side, there are the pressure from things like Sinclair and Nexstar. Nexstar wants things from Brendan Carr. The whole thing is just ridiculous. You know, a pressure. You know, people putting pressure on things they want for gimmies and things like that.
And so, I think the person behaving the worst here -- and I'm not thrilled with what Bob Iger and Dana Walden did. I don't love -- you know, Nexstar and Sinclair can do whatever they want. These are private companies. They're allowed to do this even if it's shameful, and it is. But the problem here is Donald Trump saying something like, I don't like "The View," I don't like this, I don't like Jimmy Kimmel. And then rolling downhill, and you know what it is, to Brendan Carr, and then he has to make his threats.
There's an absolute bright line here between what happened at Disney and what Brendan Carr said and what Donald Trump said before that. It's so clear. It's -- you know. And they'd like to make arguments. Otherwise, these companies can do what they want. But they can't do what they want. They have to pay attention to what Trump has done to universities and law firms, et cetera, et cetera.
[23:10:03]
COATES: And some -- I mean, for example, when going to court, universities have fared well. In some instances, corporations have not decided to do so. But the idea of the easy way, the hard way, that's this huge conundrum for many. The business bottom line, Dominic, versus the first line in the Bill of Rights, obviously, the First Amendment, right? But reactions are pouring in.
SWISHER: Well, the First Amendment applies to the government. Just to be clear, it doesn't apply to these companies.
COATES: You're absolutely right.
SWISHER: Yeah.
COATES: The issue people are having is thinking that that same bright line you're describing with that chain reaction of sorts was pressure that was exerted onto a private company with the intention of interfering with First Amendment rights. That's the through line that is being alleged, which is why there's conversations around what sort of litigation might be available, I'm not saying it is, but what might be available.
SWISHER: Uh-hmm.
COATES: But Dominic, let me ask you this, because the leverage that Kara describes and rightly points out, I mean, you've got people like the "Lost" Creator, Damon Lindelof, who is -- and "She-Hulk" star Tatiana Maslany both vowing not to work with Disney until Kimmel is back on his late-night show.
Hollywood may be coming to the defense. There might be discussions about, as this is being described, maybe employee boycotts. But does that have enough leverage over, say, the Nexstar and the Sinclair broadcasting to compel these media companies to change their mind?
PATTEN: I think that the way to look at it is slightly different, Laura. I think the way to look at it is, is Disney going to have the chutzpah and the muscle to say, we don't care what Nexstar and Sinclair think? I mean, look, no disrespect to Nexstar, who own 32 ABC affiliates around the country, but with the exception of Nashville, they don't really own many in major markets. This is not going to be a huge economic dump for Disney. So, I think what you have to decide is, are they going to play the long game? But here's the problem, I think, that's emerged time and time again, and my co-panelists spoken about it, written about it eloquently many times. These guys still think that they're going to win over Trump. They think that they're going to give him enough golden baubles or write him enough checks for $15 million for a library, and he's going to be their buddy.
But what they fail to forget time and time again, as the Victor Orban 2.0 evidence to put in front of their face, is that only lasts for 48 hours, and then he's on you again, and he's ripping you for something new or something more he wants, and it happens again and again and again. And don't just ask Hollywood. Ask Tim Cook because he's dealing with this on a 48-hour basis, it looks like.
COATES: Hmm.
PATTEN: This is -- the issue we're having here is, at what point is someone going to say, I've had enough? You've got Hollywood stars and producers like Damon and Tatiana. They're putting -- you know, canceling their Disney plus subscriptions, saying they're not going to work with these people, et cetera, et cetera. Can you have a talent boycott? Maybe. I mean, at some point, you know, we do live in a global entertainment economy. So, I think you might still be able to find people to work for you.
But I think the point being here is how much -- how much bad press -- more importantly, how much bad press and then bad stock value are you willing to go?
COATES: Yeah.
PATTEN: We saw a little dip today for Disney, but this is the beginning. We're going to see where this goes more and if it goes toxic or, as we reported on "Deadline," if they can have some talks to find a pathway to get Jimmy back on the air.
COATES: Kara, last word to you.
SWISHER: That's what -- that's -- internally, that's what's happening. They're getting a lot of pushback internally at Disney. And, you know, "The View" thing today of them not talking about it -- you know. I know ABC is saying nobody said it anything, but give me a break. You know exactly what happened there. They said --
PATTEN: I mean, also, I don't know --
COATES: Hold on, Dominic. Hold on. Dominic, I want to hear --
PATTEN: -- dealing with this.
COATES: I want to hear your point, but I want to hear what Kara was finishing up. Go ahead, Kara.
PATTEN: Sorry.
COATES: Okay. Go ahead.
SWISHER: I think what Dominic is talking about is this idea of, you know, it's a nice business you have there. I hope you get to keep it kind of thing. And that's the leverage here. And I think there are so many pieces of this. It's such part of this coin-op presidency, which is Nexstar really needs to do the merger with Tegna. I've mentioned these many times. Always look for the money with these people. Where's the (INAUDIBLE)? Where is the pressure?
Brendan Carr is an anxious toady. I don't know how else to describe him. It wants to get that deal done and make the exception, allowing them to do so. And so, that's what he's doing. And, therefore, he's playing the big guy. You know, if you want to do continue the mobster metaphor. He's pretending he's the big guy. And then the big guy is Trump, right? And that's how they talk. This is how they're talking here.
And this is the government. The government is not supposed to do this. That's not set -- that's not -- they shouldn't be in the public interest. But the fact of the matter is it's going to get Disney out of the broadcast business. These people are all going to just abandon the broadcast business --
COATES: Hmm.
SWISHER: -- because no matter what you do for all these companies, it's an old audience, it's an old technology. They should just put everything on streaming, put Jimmy Kimmel on streaming, and then say, come at us now, because that's -- that's how they should do it.
COATES: Kara, Dominic, so compelling from both of you. Thank you.
[23:15:00]
If you are suddenly wondering -- wait a minute, didn't Trump and his allies promise to protect free speech at all costs? You're not crazy. They did. Until they didn't.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I will also sign an executive order to immediately stop all government censorship and bring back free speech.
He said a horrible thing about a great gentleman known as Charlie Kirk. And Jimmy Kimmel is not a talented person. He had very bad ratings. And they should have fired him a long time ago. So, you know, you can call that free speech or not.
PAM BONDI, UNITED STATES ATTORNEY GENERAL: I believe in the freedom of speech.
We will absolutely target you, go after you if you are targeting anyone with hate speech.
CARR: America is a country of founders, of people that have pushed boundaries, pushed frontiers, they've innovated. And when you silence speech, you silence ideas.
These companies can find ways to change conduct, to take an action, frankly, on Kimmel, or there's going be additional work for the FCC ahead.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COATES: This is turtle neck today for the whiplash that you're probably experiencing with me. Additional work ahead, says the FCC chair, Brendan Carr, who appears to be trying to break the world record for most interviews by an FCC chair, as he continues his media tour where he keeps, well, bangling vague threats.
Joining me now is Democratic Congressman Josh Gottheimer of New Jersey. He used to serve as senior counselor to the chairman of the FCC from 2010 to 2012, making you the perfect person to speak with about the change of events, shall we say.
I want to get right into this idea of what the president is saying. It's up to Brendan Carr to suspend licenses of broadcasters. It seems as though this vague notion of what they have, which is called a public interest standard, which has been rarely used, broadly defined, seems to at least appear to give Carr the impression that he can do just that.
REP. JOSH GOTTHEIMER (D-NJ): Yeah. Well, I think the president called Brendan Carr a warrior for free speech.
COATES: Uh-hmm.
GOTTHEIMER: But just to add to the what you -- what just put on to the confusion about his job and what he's doing.
COATES: Uh-hmm.
GOTTHEIMER: And the public interest, of course, means news and information and alerts. It does not give the FCC chairman some wide- ranging decision to say, I'm going to squelch free speech today because I think that's in the public interest because I don't like somebody insulting Donald Trump.
And, you know, listen, I get it. He's thin-skinned. He doesn't like when someone criticizes him. So, he wants to just shut it down. But, you know, this whole thing is absurd, as we know. But this -- the fact that they -- you know, you played that part from his inaugural speech --
COATES: Uh-hmm.
GOTTHEIMER: -- right? Where he literally said he's going to stop all government censorship and bring back free speech, and then this.
COATES: I mean, the idea of free speech doesn't line up with as long as it's only conforming with one particular standard and subjective view of what is good or bad. You can disagree all you want. That's part of the idea of free speech. GOTTHEIMER: But we want.
COATES: It's what we want.
GOTTHEIMER: Yeah.
COATES: It's exactly what really there was. You know, the United States founding in part because of. But then you've got the FCC chair who -- normally, you don't see an FCC chair coming out, taking a stand such as this, making vague threats. He suggests that it's Disney, this was a business decision, it was ABC, nothing to do with me, I was just making a casual comment. But what he said put a thumb on a scale, didn't it?
GOTTHEIMER: Of course. And listen, there's -- they all have business before the FCC.
COATES: Right.
GOTTHEIMER: Right? In fact, there are mergers before the FCC right now with some of the media organizations right there, affiliates that decided to pull the plug --
COATES: Uh-hmm.
GOTTHEIMER: -- on Kimmel, right? So, they had business before then. He said, there's two ways we can solve this, right? What was -- what was his quote? We could do the easy way or the hard way, right? So, what -- what kind of -- that's not even a veiled threat, right? That is a direct threat.
So, these -- these companies have -- have no choice. But if he's saying to them, fine, I'll pull your licenses, and that's -- if that's what you want, we'll do that. And so, now what are they doing? And I really have a problem with the fact that ABC backed down.
COATES: Hmm.
GOTTHEIMER: They should have stood up and not gone along with this. But --
COATES: Wait. Follow that thread. What would they have -- so, say they had decided and said, okay, I hear that threat, I hear the pressure from, say, individual stations who were saying I'm not going to air it.
GOTTHEIMER: Yeah.
COATES: They could have taken a litigious route and said, all right, challenge it. You take my license away. They could have done that.
GOTTHEIMER: Correct. Absolutely. And, frankly, you don't just get bullied that way because what's next? Because -- you know, because he doesn't agree with you. But who are they going to go after next? They don't agree with somebody else tomorrow morning, right? Because he already said, the president, today -- who is he going after next? Fallon and others, right? And Meyers, I think, he said he is going to go after. So, you have to lay down the law on this.
COATES: Uh-hmm.
GOTTHEIMER: And I really believe and I hope, you know, that others don't just say, okay, I'm going to pull the show, that they'll stand up and fight the FCC because he'll lose in court.
[23:20:02]
They're not going to win. This does not meet the public interest definition of -- right? This is not good enough because you disagree. And, as you said, we love free speech in this country. We want debate. We're going to disagree. I disagree with my colleagues all the time.
COATES: Uh-hmm.
GOTTHEIMER: We want to do it constructively. We want to have those discussions, not screaming and yelling and deciding we're going to pull people off the air just because we disagree.
COATES: And yet this is becoming a pattern. And you've got litigation, whether it's "The New York Times." You've got Paramount, the Disney settlements, "The Wall Street Journal."
Now, this call from the president to suspend licenses because he feels that he is a target and only getting bad press and publicity. He has a remote control, I should mention, and can change, which is part of what the free speech allows.
What's the end game here, though? Because the danger, of course, of free speech for me and not for thee, can change on a dime depending on who's in power and one could easily be the target next.
GOTTHEIMER: Yeah. I mean, this part of the strategy, is to threaten and bully, whether it's a corporation or a T.V. station. And if we don't stand up and say enough and focus on bringing the country together -- you know, the president on the day after that awful tragedy last week --
COATES: Hmm.
GOTTHEIMER: -- was asked on -- I think he was on Fox News, Fox and Friends -- and said, you know, we really are going to bring the country together. And his answer, unfortunately, was, I don't care. Literally said, I don't really care.
And, you know, what we need after last week is not more attacks, more partisanship, more games. We need to bring the country together. We need to have these discussions and debates, and do them constructively. I disagree with a lot of what -- when this Kirk said, right, over the years, that the bottom line is you want to have a constructive debate. You don't want political violence. That's not -- that's not the answer. And the answer is not shutting down debate.
COATES: You're a lawmaker. We want people to follow the law. The First Amendment, a really important part of our Constitution. What can the lawmakers do, if anything, if a private company decides to suspend or terminate? It's not the government censoring per se. What can lawmakers do in that context?
GOTTHEIMER: No. But -- but in this case, it's really the FCC. If the FCC chairman makes threats and makes it clear that he's going to go after them, or suddenly it's -- I'm not going to approve business you have, whether it's a merger or some other business you have before the FCC --
COATES: Uh-hmm.
GOTTHEIMER: -- that's what we should be looking at.
COATES: So, what do you do about it?
GOTTHEIMER: Well, you drag the chairman before the committee.
COATES: The subpoena failed, though, right?
GOTTHEIMER: Actually, it has failed. But you -- you know, there are plenty of other ways to keep pushing this to get answers. And you keep doing what I'm doing, which is saying, hey, listen -- trying to light on this -- this is not acceptable, this is not what the FCC is for.
COATES: Congressman Josh Gottheimer, thank you.
GOTTHEIMER: Thanks so much for having me.
COATES: Jon Stewart speaking out about Kimmel's suspension in a way only Jon Stewart can. And yes, we'll have it for you next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[23:25:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COATES: Well, moments ago, The Daily Show's Jon Stewart in a rare midweek appearance taking a stab at Jimmy Kimmel's suspension in alternate universe.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JON STEWART, COMEDIAN, WRITER: In America, we have a little something called the First Amendment. And let me tell you how it works. There's something called a talent-o-meter.
(APPLAUSE)
It's a completely scientific instrument that is kept on the president's desk. And it tells the president when a performer's T.Q., talent quotient --
(LAUGHTER)
-- measured mostly by niceness to the president -- (LAUGHTER)
-- goes below a certain level, at which point the FCC must be notified to threaten the acquisition prospects for billion-dollar mergers of network affiliates. These affiliates are then asked to give ultimatums to the even larger megacorporation that controls the flow of state- approved content or the FCC can just choose to threaten those licenses directly. It's basic science.
(LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COATES: With me now, Republican strategist Joe Pinion and founder and CEO of Virginia's redefining Freedom Center, Sophia Nelson. Good to have both of you here.
Joe, let me ask you. Can you reconcile the president's first day executive order titled "Restoring Freedom of Speech and Ending Federal Censorship" with what we're seeing in this last even 24 hours?
JOE PINION, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST, NEW YORK GOP SURROGATE, FORMER SENATE CANDIDATE: Absolutely. I think, first and foremost, before he is the president of the United States, in spite of the threat he's president of the United States, I think that he lost a friend.
I would remind people that Charlie Kirk was assassinated in broad daylight as a desire to chill free speech. More people witnessed Charlie Kirk lose his life, live in living color, than people saw John F. Kennedy lose his life. We didn't see the Zapruder film for close to 12 years.
So, I think we have to start there. I think we can certainly have a separate conversation about the efficacy of the FCC chair making those comments if for no other reason that we're not having a conversation about whether or not Jimmy Kimmel should have been fired and we're talking about him.
But here are the facts. Jimmy Kimmel is losing ABC money. And more importantly, at the end of the day, he still works for the Mickey Mouse Corporation, and I don't mean that in a pejorative manner, in the same way that Shannon Sharpe worked for the Mickey Mouse Corporation.
When you threaten the ears, you lose your job. That is why Shannon Sharpe, who is one of the most talented individuals in sports commentary, no longer works for ESPN. It is why Jimmy Kimmel no longer has a job. Because Jimmy Kimmel, in the aftermath where he should have had more discernment than Matthew Dowd because he had the benefit of having that cool-off period, decided to rush in and say things that were demonstrably untrue.
[23:30:07] So, he said things that were untrue, he said things that were unfunny at a time when his show is losing the Mickey Mouse Corporation big, big (INAUDIBLE). That's why he no longer has a job --
COATES: Sophia --
PINION: -- he has nothing to do with President Trump, and it has very little to do with the FCC chair.
COATES: I want to get another voice in, the one sitting here. Sophia, what's your reaction?
SOPHIA NELSON, CNN OPINION CONTRIBUTOR, COLUMNIST FOR FORBES: You know, when the president of the United States gets sworn into office, he takes an oath to uphold the Constitution of the United States. That oath is not dependent upon whether or not we lose friends, family members. There are presidents that have served in office and had sons in harm's way in wars, sons-in-law, and yet they honor their oaths.
So, this specious argument that somehow, because Donald Trump lost a friend, this gives him the right to go on a tirade and tell reporters, maybe we'll come after you next, and to go after late night comedians.
America is built on freedom of speech, freedom of thought, and the ability to voice your opinion, make a joke, certainly on late-night T.V. when you're a comedian, and you should be able to do that without threat of your job. So that somehow Donald Trump has a carve out, Laura, that no other president has had, just doesn't fly in this country. That's not how we do it here.
PINION: I was just --
COATES: Hold on, Joe. Before you respond to that, I want to make sure everyone knows the distinction. And both of you have talked about this. Both of you know this quite well. Obviously, there's the FCC and the statement that was made by Brendan Carr. There's Donald Trump, the president of United States. And there's the decision of a private employer.
The question people are trying to thread together in that connective tissue is what pressure, undo or not, was placed on a private entity from a government body such that it would provoke concerns about the First Amendment. We all know a private company can't offend the First Amendment. But that's the point. I want to make sure that's clear to our audience.
But I also want to play for you, guys, what the former vice president, Mike Pence, had to say, who was pleading with the country to resist, his words, putting America on trial. Listen to this for a second.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MIKE PENCE, FORMER VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Democracy depends on heavy doses of civility. I think we need to resist putting America on trial every time evil claims the heart of someone and they do violence against one of our countrymen. (END VIDEO CLIP)
COATES: Joe, I want you to -- tell me, who do you think he is speaking to? And do you think that if the audience are his fellow Republicans, are they receptive to his statement?
PINION: I think the former vice president is speaking to all Americans. I just -- I feel we have to go back to this notion of a specious argument. We can have a conversation about whether it is in the best interest of the country to have a conversation emanating from the president about the licensing of these public corporations or these private entities and the public airways.
But we have to set a standard. We don't all have to agree on the standard, but a standard has to be set. Charlie Kirk was assassinated on a college campus. The whole country saw it. And then we had somebody on the public airways suggest that somehow, he had it coming, like we were in the musical from Chicago. And we can laugh in the theater, but there's nothing funny about what happened here.
So yes, we can make jokes, but I don't think it is unreasonable in the aftermath of this, as the vice president is imploring us, to not put the country on trial to say we have to have a public standard. That is not us chilling free speech. That is us codifying free speech and having a conversation publicly, which the president can and should lead, about what kind of speech should be tolerated.
COATES: Well, Sophia, Jimmy Kimmel's statements speak for themselves. He has made those statements. The phrasing that Joe offered, though, that somebody had it coming to him, has not been the interpretation that I have seen on social media or otherwise of what Jimmy Kimmel said. But can you respond to his point about the idea of this not being chilling speech but codifying it? Do you agree with that sentiment?
NELSON: Are you talking to me, Laura?
COATES: Yes, Sophia.
NELSON: Yes. I think that -- again, I'll go back to what I said. This is chilling speech because the FCC chairman got on television and was giving an interview and made clear we could do this the easy way or the hard way. Well, what does that mean, Mr. Chairman?
And Jimmy Kimmel, if you look at his statements, he said -- I think he has been very tepid compared to other statements that have been made on either side, including the sitting vice president of the United States, has made a lot of outrageous statements over the last week. And I get that they're in mourning.
But, Joe, come on. You don't get a carve out because you're upset because your friend was tragically assassinated.
[23:35:00]
That's not how the First Amendment works in this country. PINION: I will simply agree.
NELSON: And as a lawyer and a professor and constitutional scholar, I'll debate you on that any time.
PINION: I'm not saying the president deserves a carve out. What I'm saying is that, in my humble opinion, and I think it's the opinion that is shared by great many people on the political right, that it is laughable that the political left that turned a blind eye to Joe Biden and his administration, building back doors into X and Facebook to chill the free speech of private citizens, is now outraged --
NELSON: You know, it is outrageous for you to say that and not see --
PINION: -- that people would go -- respectfully, I didn't interrupt you.
NELSON: -- what happens on your side.
COATES: Well, I tell you --
(CROSSTALK)
COATES: I hear both of what you're saying. I appreciate having this constructive debate. Let's have it again because on this show, your speech is free. Joe and Sophia, thank you both.
NELSON: Thanks, Laura.
COATES: Up next, what if Jimmy Kimmel wanted to sue? Would he even have a case? And who would he be suing? What would it look like? Well, my friend and fellow legal mind, Elie Honig, will break it down next.
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[23:40:00]
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COATES: It goes without saying the Constitution does not guarantee Jimmy Kimmel a talk show. But it does guarantee the government can suppress someone's speech because they don't like what you have to say. And yes, there are some statements that can be prosecuted if threatened or inciting violence, for example. That's about what the government can do. What about a private employer? Can Jimmy Kimmel do anything about this legally?
Let's turn to our favorite CNN legal analyst, Elie Honig, author of the brand-new book, and it's a great one, "When You Come at the King." We're going to talk more about this book in a second. But talk to me. What are his options here, given that it was not the FCC that fired him, but a private employer?
ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: So, the easy part is he might be able to sue the private employer, ABC, if there was some contractual violation. Separate from the First Amendment, we don't know what's in his contract, but depends on what the terms could be to fire him.
More complicated, though, could he bring a First Amendment argument here against the government or against ABC? That's trickier, right? Because the government hasn't actually taken an action. They've threatened, which is one thing. So, it's sort of a bank shot. He'd sort of have to argue, well, the government made these threats, which in turn caused ABC to terminate me. That's a trickier road to go down.
But I don't think he's going go away quietly. I think he's going to make a statement someday. It would not at all shock me to see him at least bring this litigation to try to make a point.
COATES: What about the FCC having this public interest center? It's a vague one, essentially saying that you've got to align yourself, and I'm paraphrasing, with things that are in the public's interest and, therefore, these statements wouldn't qualify. What do say to that?
HONIG: It's -- it's overly broad to say that that allows you to police the content of speech. The way that has been interpreted is to say you can't do something that's a national security threat, for example. That's usually been the very rare instance where the FCC is actually taking an action. So, if they start getting into what's good or bad for the populace, whether we like or not, like, we're heading down a dangerous road.
COATES: Well, let's head down the path of this great book. I want to talk about it next. Thank you. Stick around. Elie, this book is really incredible. We got something else important to talk about in just a minute in the book. But first, what does Jimmy Kimmel's suspension mean for comedy? And are they facing a reality where a cancel culture is coming from the right? Comedian Paul Mecurio is next.
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[23:45:00]
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COATES: Late night's biggest stars are rallying behind Jimmy Kimmel tonight. Stephen Colbert not pulling any punches.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COLBERT: People across the country are shocked by this blatant assault on the freedom of speech.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COATES: Some of the hosts even poked fun at the idea that their show could be next.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SETH MEYERS, NBC HOST: I just want to say before we get started here that I've always admired and respected Mr. Trump.
(LAUGHTER)
I've always believed he was -- no, no, no -- a visionary, an innovator, a great president, and even better golfer. And if you've ever seen me say anything negative about him, that's just A.I., I'm told.
(LAUGHTER)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COATES: So, what does Kimmel's suspension say about the current state of media and comedy more specifically? Well, who better than to ask a comedian? Joining me now is Paul Mecurio. He is an Emmy Award-winning comedian known for his work on "The Late Show with Stephen Colbert." Good to see you.
PAUL MECURIO, COMEDIAN: Good to see you.
COATES: Paul, you were at tonight's taping of Colbert's show. How are you and your fellow comedians even processing what has happened to Kimmel? Are you worried this is going to have a chilling effect of what you can do?
MECURIO: Well, we're not in a fetal position crying. We're trying to figure out what the future is. Yeah, I think it could. I mean, look, by our nature, comedians are contrarians. So, you tell us to do A, we're going to do B. But the other side of it is comedians need to eat and feed their families. And we're in a culture now where if you're going to make a joke about a conservative and you're a red state, will the club book you or vice versa, right?
And I, at times lately, start thinking of a joke. I don't know. And this is where we are, Laura. This is where we are. If I wanted to write a chicken crosses the road joke, I have to go, well, it could offend people who like chicken --
COATES: Hmm.
MECURIO: -- and they'll go to the chicken lobby, which is, you know, very powerful because chicken is delicious. And then they go to the FDA. And then the president calls and gets me cancelled. I mean, I'm being absurd, but where does it stop? Right?
COATES: Well, where does it stop is exactly the thing that's making a lot of people question should they even begin. What you described -- I mean, Steve Harvey, this week, he revealed why he decided to quit stand-up comedy just over 10 years ago, by the way. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
STEVE HARVEY, COMEDIAN, TELEVISION HOST: I saw the change coming. You remember I said change is inevitable. You got to react or participate. So, my participation was to get away from it because the cancel culture started becoming everywhere. Comedy is too hard to do right now. You can't say what you want to say and expect to be relevant and not get cancelled. (END VIDEO CLIP)
COATES: So, what does that mean, though, if comedians are oftentimes the ones with the ability to speak truth to power because there is truth in the way the joke is even received?
MECURIO: Yeah. I mean, look, we have a history of political satire. That's important. Going back to Mark Twain, right?
COATES: Uh-hmm.
MECURIO: And so, now, that foundation has a crack in it. And so, what ends up happening is that you start to feel boxed.
[23:50:00]
And so, everything is political now. Everything. News, comedy, sports, transgender issues. Right? And this is everybody's problem, though. The thing that I feel like I've been missing -- has been missing in the last two days is comedians, comedians. It's everybody's problem.
Here's an example for you. Everybody watching. And, by the way, I'm left and right. If those watching -- I'm not necessarily a Trump basher. Not my guy. Didn't vote for him. I'm the guy in the middle. I believe in a little bit of this, a little bit of that, and what I believe in, okay? So, my agenda here is First Amendment, and that's it, and the government not using coercion to get people to do what they don't want to do.
So, you have a 16-year-old daughter. She's on the debate team. She decides her debate is going to be, you know, kind of negative about Trump and the administration. Maybe a Trumper kid doesn't like it, tells his parents, they tell the school board, school board calls the Department of Education, they call Trump, it's a public school getting federal funding, they say to the school, we're going to cut your funding if you don't suspend that girl and make an example of her. And that woman -- and that girl then has problem getting into college because she got suspended.
Do I -- does that sound crazy? No. No. And that's where I'm scared. If I said that to you a year ago, you'd be like, Paul, you were drinking. I'm like, no, no, no, that could happen. And so, that's where we are now. And if the law firms and the large corporations aren't going to push back, how am I going to push back as a comedian?
COATES: Hmm. One day, we all become the poster children. Paul Mecurio, thank you.
MECURIO: Thank you.
COATES: Still ahead, a pivotal moment for the Justice Department and the history that got us to where we are today. Elie Honig is back to share his new and incredibly timely book next.
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[23:55:00]
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(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RICHARD NIXON, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Well, I'm not a crook.
RONALD REAGAN, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We did not -- repeat -- did not trade weapons or anything else for hostages.
BILL CLINTON, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I did not have sexual relations with that woman.
TRUMP: I have nothing to do with Russia. Haven't made a phone call to Russia in years.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COATES: Those infamous denials, all prompting high-profile investigations we now know as history. One ended the presidency. Others tainted legacies. And now, CNN senior analyst Elie Honig is tracing the history of each of these investigations through firsthand interviews, covering every major presidential scandal in modern history, from Watergate to Jack Smith's investigations. And his new book, "When You Come at the King," is now out.
Elie is back with me. Really well done, Elie. I can't say I'm surprised by all work you're doing. But how high were the stakes when presidents tried to interfere in their own investigations?
HONIG: So, you and I have both been in the courtroom prosecuting cases and you know that this feels like all-consuming, right? Now, imagine if you were going after the president and the whole world and media was watching and scrutinizing everything you did. Right? Imagine the pressure.
And the reason I wanted to write this book really, two things. One, because this is our history. This is what defines us in terms of accountability for our most powerful person. But two is the moment we're in right now. You've been talking about this throughout the show, where we have a president doing unprecedented things. And while presidents throughout history, nobody likes to be investigated, what Trump is doing right now is fundamentally different.
But I do draw some inspiration from the stories people told me. One, I'll always remember. One of the Watergate prosecutors, guy named Jim Quarles, who 45 years later worked for Mueller's team, talked about the day after the Saturday Night Massacre. So, the leadership of DOJ has been fired and resigned. And he told me, "We gathered in a room. We, the line level prosecutors, we didn't know what to do. And we said, let's make the president fire all of us if he wants to get rid of this."
And that's what they did. They stayed, they did their jobs. And ultimately, they achieved accountability for Richard Nixon. Where we are now, though, is very different.
COATES: The chain reaction that you described in the book, and the collateral damage, and the universe of people who are investigated when, say, a presidential action is scrutinized, is enormous. And you had firsthand accounts and interviews of people, even people who were indicted by special counsel, John Durham, talking about those moments.
HONIG: So, John Durham, you remember, is the investigate -- the investigator guy who came in after Mueller. I talked to a man named Igor Danchenko, who was prosecuted by John Durham, went to trial and acquitted, found not guilty. And what I learned from him was it destroyed his life. Even though he beat the case, even though it was a bogus charge, it cost him hundreds of thousands of dollars in legal fees, which he's still struggling to pay off. He lost his job. It put a strain on his personal relationships. His reputation is tarnished.
And I think it's an important reminder that we prosecutors hold enormous power. But when we run away with it, there's a real cost to real people there.
COATES: As they say, you know, power is absolute and absolute power is -- I think it's -- obviously, many people look at it --
HONIG: Absolutely corrupt.
COATES: Absolutely corrupt. You know, this is a moment in history, free speech debated, maybe for the first time since we've heard about free speech being sacrosanct, right?
HONIG: Yeah.
COATES: What was it like having this book come out that challenges and investigates really the powers that be in a way that speaks a truth to power when the First Amendment is being questioned and tested?
HONIG: Yes. So, I approach this book like I was a juror, like I was going to hear the evidence. And a lot of these cases I heard from both the prosecution and the defense -- sometimes, the records mix. Sometimes, I was able to render a verdict. This case was exemplary. I think Watergate. This case was not exemplary. Durham, like we just talked about.
But I do think -- and the timing's a bit lucky, a bit fortuitous because I did mean to make the point in this book that Donald Trump now -- by making clear nobody will investigate him and anybody who does will be punished. That was a motivating force.
But just what has happened this last week has driven that home even more. I mean, that's the title, right? The title I took from "The Wire," the great T.V. show, when Omar, others have said it, but nobody said it like Omar, you come at the king, you best not miss. And Donald Trump is giving life to that right now. And it's really a plea that we can do better.
[00:00:00] I suggest a way we can improve the system. But the next president needs to understand the importance of independent prosecutorial power and actual accountability.
COATES: The right book, the right time, the right author, and the right friend. Elie Honig, thank you so much. His book again is "When You Come at the King." Thank you all for watching. "Anderson Cooper 360" is next.
