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Laura Coates Live
Pam Bondi Dodges And Attacks On Eve Of Comey Arraignment; Laura Coates Interviews Illinois Attorney General Kwame Raoul; Robin Williams's Daughter Slams "Gross" A.I. Videos Of Her Dad. Aired 11p- 12a ET
Aired October 07, 2025 - 23:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[23:00:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ANA NAVARRO, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I want Chacha to compete and to go up against the Westminster Dog Show dogs. Okay? Because --
ABBY PHILLIP, CNN ANCHOR AND SENIOR POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Look at her.
NAVARRO: -- I -- I look at these dogs in that Westminster show, and I think to myself, my dog is way smarter and definitely cuter and nicer. It has more charisma and everything else than all those dogs.
(LAUGHTER)
So, for a million bucks, I will put Chacha in the Westminster Dog Show, and we will win it, Chacha.
PHILLIP: Hundred percent more charisma from Chacha. Everyone, thank you so much. Thanks for watching "NewsNight." "Laura Coates Live" starts right now.
LAURA COATES, CNN HOST AND SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Tonight, dodge, deflect, and attack. Democrats tried to pry answers from Pam Bondi before James Comey's arraignment. But did she give them anything? Plus, Texas National Guard troops gather right outside of Chicago, and a legal showdown is looming as Illinois fights to keep them out. The state's attorney general is my guest. Also, the A.I. videos of Robin Williams that have his daughter pleading just stop. Tonight on "Laura Coates Live."
So, if you wanted a case study in the art of the dodge, look no further than the Attorney General Pam Bondi's testimony on Capitol Hill. Today, she was questioned by senators for more than four hours on the eve of the arraignment of former FBI director, James Comey. And what she actually provided could have been an email. She repeatedly avoided answering questions about his indictment and the turmoil inside the DOJ leading up to it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. AMY KLOBUCHAR (D-MN): Is it true that the career prosecutors in the Eastern District of Virginia found that there was insufficient evidence to bring criminal charges against former Director Comey?
PAM BONDI, UNITED STATES ATTORNEY GENERAL: I am not going to discuss pending cases.
SEN. RICHARD BLUMENTHAL (D-CT): I'd like to know from you what conversations you've had with President Trump about the indictment of James Comey.
BONDI: Senator -- senator, I am not going to discuss any conversations I have or have not had with the president of the United States.
BLUESTEIN: Did you see that --
BONDI: You're an attorney, you have a law degree, and you know that I'm not going to do that.
KLOBUCHAR: How does firing a 20-year national security prosecutor enhance public safety?
BONDI: Senator Klobuchar, I'm not going to discuss personnel decisions.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COATES: Senator Amy Klobuchar gave Bondi some of the toughest questions about Comey and the most direct. She will join me in just a moment to discuss. But look, all that dodging you just heard, just the tip of the iceberg. She sidestepped questions on, well, just about everything.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BONDI: You would have to talk to Director Patel about that.
I'm not going to discuss any legal advice that my department may or may not have given or issued at the direction of the president on this matter.
Senator, I can't discuss anything regarding that matter.
I am not going to talk about personnel matters with you.
And I can't comment on whether we have or have not or do or do not have pending investigations.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COATES: I mean, you might be wondering after seeing that list tick down, did we actually learn anything? Now, this isn't the first time that somebody has ducked and weaved or is grilling on the Hill. We know that. It's pretty much a rite of passage for Cabinet members of any administration.
But Trump's team are using a new tactic. And it, frankly, is straight out of the president's playbook. Ignore the questions, decide what you want to answer, if anything, and attack the questioners. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BONDI: I wish you loved Chicago as much as you hate President Trump.
I wish that you loved your state of California as much as you hate President Trump.
Senator, I don't think a lot of people like that you were out protesting with Antifa.
I cannot believe that you would accuse me of impropriety when you lied about your military service.
BLUESTEIN: I am --
BONDI: What about the fires in California?
SEN. ADAM SCHIFF (D-CA): And -- and this is supposed to be --
BONDI: Do you care about that, Senator Schiff?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COATES: We saw something similar, if you remember, from FBI Director Kash Patel when he testified. You know, just like him, Bondi saved some of her most forceful jabs for questions over the Epstein files.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. DICK DURBIN (D-IL): Who gave the order to flag records related to President Trump?
BONDI: To flag records for President Trump?
DURBIN: To flag any records which included his name.
BONDI: I'm not going to discuss anything about that with you, senator.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COATES: So, I wonder how is Bondi's boss, for whom she serves under the pleasure of, taking her performance. Sources say the White House is pleased with one official calling it a master class. Joining me now, Senate Judiciary Committee member and Minnesota Democratic senator, Amy Klobuchar.
[23:05:02]
Senator, welcome. I have to tell you, watching today's hearing was astounding. The tone, the tenor, the way in which the attorney general did not answer even your direct question which was essentially, did Trump's post constitute a directive about indicting Comey? She did not answer that directly. And, frankly, she didn't answer most questions in a direct manner. Did that surprise you? Did anything accomplish today? KLOBUCHAR: It truly did. We know there are so many bad assaults on our democracy, assaults on the law occurring every single day with this administration. But I think back to her nomination hearing where she did answer things, in fact, she told me under oath that politics would be separate from the Justice Department, that the Justice Department would be independent. Today, from the very first question out of Ranking Member Durbin who, of course, is an --
COATES: Uh-hmm.
KLOBUCHAR: -- accomplished senator, been there for years, overall thought of as a nice guy, from the very first question, she just hit back. You could ask about antitrust, and she'd talk about Antifa.
COATES: She did.
KLOBUCHAR: You could -- that was one of my colleagues that happened to -- Alex Padilla asked, well, should you follow court orders? She wouldn't answer that. Um, Senator Welch and Senator Whitehouse asked about, well, the, um, allegations that have been widely reported, that the border czar, Homan, took $50,000 from an undercover FBI agent, where's that $50,000. She would not answer. When she got asked about just directly about the Epstein files, um, by Senator Durbin and Senator Schiff, she wouldn't answer that.
And then I really focused on, um, some of what I consider vengeance prosecutions that are just, to me as a former prosecutor, the antithesis of what should be going on --
COATES: Uh-hmm.
KLOBUCHAR: -- in a Justice Department or really any prosecutor's office.
COATES: But she talked about weaponization. In fact, I think it was interesting because she repeatedly claimed that she was going to end weaponization, that she was not going to be engaged in that.
And Republicans -- and she also pointed out that Republicans -- the special counsel, Jack Smith, obtained through a court order, as you know, call records of eight Senate Republicans who were in the January 6 investigation. How do you respond to her suggestion that that was proof that the Biden administration was weaponizing the DOJ?
KLOBUCHAR: I think when you were there on January 6 and saw what happened and realized that this was an insurrection, and you look at the conduct of the Trump administration in the last few months when these were righteous prosecutions of people that had assaulted police officers, beat them up, sometimes very seriously, and that they pardoned all these people, to me, that is the assault on the justice system.
COATES: I mean, you know one way to ensure credibility in front of a court, for example --
KLOBUCHAR: Uh-hmm. COATES: -- would be to answer questions in a straightforward manner, admit what you do know, talk about the privacy if you cannot talk about it for some reason. There would have been moments when she could have embraced that notion. She chose not to. And even when it came to particularly former FBI director, James Comey, who you know will be, you know, arraigned tomorrow in court. And I want to talk about the Eastern District of Virginia, which --
KLOBUCHAR: Uh-hmm.
COATES: -- now has a former Trump attorney, no prosecutorial experience whatsoever, now heading the EDVA. She is building her prosecution team in the case against Comey. Two of the people are from North Carolina. It's unclear as to why they're not coming from the EDVA office. What does it say to you about the strength of that case?
KLOBUCHAR: Um, well, first of all, I was stunned, um, after, of course, they pushed out a career prosecutor --
COATES: Uh-hmm.
KLOBUCHAR: -- uh, Erik Siebert, that had been recommended to the president from the Republican governor of Virginia. Pushed him out after he finds that there just isn't the evidence, uh, to bring a case against the former FBI director. Then she puts in, as you noted, a White House aide.
COATES: Uh-hmm.
KLOBUCHAR: And then, what happens next is they start firing people in the office, including someone that a conservative blogger had gone after, who they claimed was involved in the Comey decision, who, in fact, was actually a national security expert with 20 years of experience, Michael Ben'Ary, and he was forced out. So, why you ask, are they bringing in people from outside of the office? It's because they've been firing a bunch of people in the office and wreaking havoc in the office.
And one of the things that bothers me as a former prosecutor is you want to get opinions from people in the office that you might not agree with. You want to have people looking at the evidence in a case --
COATES: Uh-hmm.
KLOBUCHAR: -- and making a recommendation about what to do with a certain case and balancing all that.
[23:09:57]
She's going to suppress, they are going to suppress people from expressing their own views about a case and whether or not a case should be brought if everyone gets fired just for saying what they believe is the right thing to do under the law. So, it is way beyond this tragic story of these prosecutors in that division, in that district in Virginia, and what's happening to Jim Comey as he has really clearly said, bring on the trial. But it's also about the justice system as a whole when you --
COATES: Uh-hmm.
KLOBUCHAR: -- start firing people just for the decisions that they've made based on their -- their review of the evidence.
COATES: And whether it's there or not, you want that objectivity from a prosecutor because in the interest of justice, you have to prove your case.
I want to turn, senator, to what's happening just a hop, skip, and a jump away on Capitol Hill. As you know, more than anyone, the government is --
KLOBUCHAR: I'm just trying to think of the words hop and skip.
COATES: Hop and skip and Capitol Hill. But -- I mean, shutdown. It might be time to do so with your colleagues. But I want to ask about it because President Trump said something about back pay for federal workers. And he suggested, somehow, everyone might not get it. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNKNOWN (voice-over): Is it the White House's position that furloughed workers should be paid for their back pay?
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: I would say it depends on who we're talking about. I can tell you this: The Democrats have put a lot of people in great risk and jeopardy. But it really depends on who you're talking about. But for the most part, we're going to take care of our people. There are some people that really don't deserve to be taken care of, and we'll take care of them in a different way.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COATES: I find that mind-boggling. What's your reaction and what do you say to federal workers who are sitting here tonight thinking, wait, am I someone who doesn't deserve back pay all of a sudden?
KLOBUCHAR: It is the law. It is the law. A law passed that they should be paid. And what President Trump needs to do, he prides himself as the art of the deal, is bring people together and be a leader because I can tell you, right now, the Republicans in Congress who have rubber-stamped everything that he wants seem to be in complete disarray. The House, maybe because of the Epstein file, released vote.
COATES: Uh-hmm.
KLOBUCHAR: They haven't even come back for 18 days. I went over there today and it's a bunch of marble statues. Like there's more statues of deceased Republican leaders than there are Republicans over there right now. They're not there. They're not doing their job. He needs to call them back. And then, he needs to negotiate this. And clearly, we have made it clear very -- from the very beginning that we're facing a healthcare crisis that they created with the big, beautiful betrayal of the bill, whether it's 15 million people being pushed off healthcare because of their Medicaid cuts or the 500 billion in Medicare cuts that was triggered because they added too much debt, it was the law, with their tax cuts for the wealthy.
And what we're really focused on right now are these Affordable Care Act insurance subsidies because what's happening is we're going to see a doubling, a doubling of people's premiums. These are real people like the soybean farmer in Minnesota who told me he was facing a perfect storm of ugly due to --
COATES: Yeah.
KLOBUCHAR: -- everything he's seeing with the tariffs, and then these input costs of fertilizer, and then, of course, his healthcare premium. This is happening across the country. Three-fourths of the people are -- that are facing these double premiums live in states that are -- were won by Donald Trump. That is because some of these states didn't do the Medicaid expansion and also because it's a bunch of small businesses, people in rural areas. He is well aware of that, and he needs to lead.
COATES: We'll see what happens. People are suffering. Senator, thank you.
KLOBUCHAR: Thank you.
COATES: As the senator mentioned, the attorney general was also grilled on the Jeffrey Epstein scandal. One of the more explosive moments came when Rhode Island Democrat Sheldon Whitehouse asked Bondi about photos of Trump that Epstein allegedly had in his possession.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. SHELDON WHITEHOUSE (D-RI): There has been public reporting that Jeffrey Epstein showed people photos of President Trump with half- naked young women. Do you know if the FBI found those photographs in their search of Jeffrey Epstein's safe or premises or otherwise? Have you seen any such thing?
BONDI: You know, Senator Whitehouse, you sit here and make salacious remarks, once again trying to slander President Trump left and right, when you're the one who was taking money from one of Epstein's closest confidants, I believe, I could be wrong, correct me, Reid Hoffman, who was with Jeffrey Epstein on multiple occasions, and the senator sitting right next to you tried to block the flight logs from being released. Yet you're grilling me on President Trump and some photograph with Epstein? Come on.
WHITEHOUSE: The question is, did the FBI find those photographs that have been discussed publicly by a witness who claimed Jeffrey Epstein showed them to him?
[23:15:03] You don't know anything about that. Okay.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COATES: Let's bring in Mimi Rocah, former district attorney for Westchester County, New York, and Will Sommer, senior reporter for "The Bulwark."
I'll begin with you here, Mimi, because, as you saw, Bondi, she dodged, she deflected questions about the Epstein files, the DOJ probe. Did she actually do more harm than good by refusing to answer basic questions and perhaps even settle some of the disturbing allegations?
MIMI ROCAH, FORMER WESTCHESTER COUNTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY: Well, Laura, I don't know if it helped or hurt, but I do know that there was something sorely missing, both frankly from some of the questioning and definitely from her answers.
Even if she wasn't going to give substantive answers which, clearly, she was not going to do, she could have talked about the victims, she could have talked about the survivors, she could have talked about trying to help them find the justice that they're demanding. I mean, she is the head of the Department of Justice whose job, their number one job, is to help victims.
And you know, you wouldn't know that. From any part of her testimony, you would think her number one job is to help and protect and deflect for Donald Trump. Now, I'm not saying other attorney generals have never gotten up there and, as you mentioned, you know, not answered questions, dodged questions, but this was a wholesale dodge and it was done in a way that was not worthy, frankly, of the position that she holds. It was not -- it was done like a politician, right? It was come back at you with gotcha moments. It was defense about Donald Trump, the person. And that's just not her job. That is not what the people should expect from the attorney general.
COATES: So, Will, was her audience, the president of United States, was that the -- the electorate, essentially, that she as a politician, according to Mimi, was trying to at least cajole?
WILL SOMMER, SENIOR REPORTER, THE BULWARK: That certainly seems to be the case here. I mean, she's dodging these questions, she's evading them, as Mimi said. I mean, I think this is what we get when the attorney general is someone who is essentially a political operative, who seems to have very little interest in actually getting to the bottom of many of these cases.
You know, at one point, she's asked, who flagged mentions of Trump in the Epstein files --
COATES: Yes.
SOMMER: -- or who asked the FBI to flag that? And she essentially says, I'm just not going to answer that. Okay. I mean, there's no -- there's no legal predicate or anything that she's citing. She just is basically acknowledging that this is an embarrassing question to have to answer. It might be potentially embarrassing for the president, so says, I'm going to move on.
COATES: What I find interesting about that, too, Will, was the idea that, um, she could have offered an answer and said something like, I'm unaware of anything like that, I've heard those details be said before, I have no record of having this in my, you know, any kind of arsenal of information of any kind. She doesn't do that. She sorts of makes things rhetorical at different points in time.
There was even a point where she is asked about Howard Lutnick. And, of course, he is Trump's commerce secretary who called Epstein -- quote -- "the greatest blackmailer ever." You had the Louisiana Republican senator, John Kennedy, grilling Bondi about that. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. JOHN KENNEDY (R-LA): Have you -- have you interviewed Secretary Lutnick?
BONDI: No, senator.
KENNEDY: Do you plan to?
BONDI: If he wants to talk to the FBI or the FBI wants to talk to him, that is more than on --
KENNEDY: Don't you think you ought to talk to him after this interview?
BONDI: Senator, if -- if -- if Howard Lutnick wants to speak to the FBI and if Director Patel wants to speak to Howard Lutnick, absolutely.
KENNEDY: Okay. Maybe we ought to get Mr. Lutnick in here, too.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COATES: Mimi, what did you think of that moment given the fact that, at first, it seemed like, well, if he'd like to talk to the FBI, that's fine? What an odd thing to say.
ROCAH: It -- it -- I mean, again, the DOJ and the FBI, they investigate things. It is no one's fault except Lutnick and, you know, whoever else in this administration that he went on television or a podcast --
COATES: Uh-hmm.
ROCAH: -- and said out loud something so, um, potentially explosive. Whether it's true or not, what his basis is for knowing that, we don't know, but that is what investigators do. You hear something like that and no matter who it's about -- again, if you have any real DOJ that has some distance from the president, then you say -- or from anyone -- I mean, again, Lutnick didn't say anything about Trump. He said that he was the number one blackmailer. He was talking about why he got this great deal back in Florida.
[23:19:56]
Well, that is something the DOJ should want to know, again, for the survivors, for the American public. And, frankly, if you listen to them over the past couple of years, for them, because they've been talking about, you know, all of these aspects of Epstein.
COATES: Uh-hmm.
ROCAH: And just one point is, you know, she kept saying, I'm not going to answer this, I'm not going to answer this, as we've discussed. They are the ones who have still been putting things, though, out publicly, not just Lutnick, but Todd Blanche went and interviewed Maxwell, and then put out a transcript.
I mean, it's -- really, it's sort of we'll answer this, but not this. It's not even just I won't answer this now under oath, but they will put out self-serving statements that they see as advantageous, but then they won't answer the question, which just makes it all the more glaring.
COATES: Glaring indeed. I want to go from the Senate to the House. Will, I'll turn to you because, as you know, there is a brand-new member of Congress out of Arizona, Adelita Grijalva. She has not been sworn in then, but she says that she would sign the discharge petition as it relates to the Epstein files. House Speaker Mike Johnson told our friend, Manu Raju, that that reason she's not sworn in, nothing to do with Epstein. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MANU RAJU, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Does it have to do with her 218 signature on the discharge petition -- the Epstein Discharge Petition?
MIKE JOHNSON, SPEAKER OF THE UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES: No, it has nothing to do with that at all. We will swear her in when everybody gets back. It's a ceremonial duty.
UNKNOWN (voice-over): (INAUDIBLE)
JOHNSON: Look, we'll schedule it, I guess, as soon as she wants.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COATES: And right after that, House Republicans were backtracked and were like, whoa, hold on. It would suggest that Epstein is a reason not to swear her in. Is that what you're hearing?
SOMMER: That's my understanding. I mean, this is highly unusual, to keep the House out for this long. We also know Mike Johnson sent the House home early back in August to avoid the Epstein discharge petition. So, this is not the first time this has happened. And, as you said, once she's in office, they're going to have enough to pass the discharge petition. So, it's very bizarre. I think Mike Johnson has kind of been dancing around this issue for months. He has tried to get a lid on his caucus. He hasn't managed to. He has gotten some Republicans to jump off the petition, but not all of them. And it's a sticky issue for him.
COATES: Certainly is. Thank you both. Mimi Rocah, Will Sommer, thank you. National Guard troops on the ground in Illinois as Trump intensifies his crackdown on blue states. But if my next guest is successful, he won't be there for much longer. Illinois Attorney General Kwame Raoul is here with me next.
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[23:25:00]
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COATES: Nearly 200 members of the Texas National Guard are stationed at a military facility outside of Chicago tonight after being mobilized by President Trump.
A law enforcement source telling CNN the troops are currently undergoing legal and crowd control training as they prepare for operations inside the city. All of this coming as a tense legal battle unfolds of whether the administration can deploy these troops to both Illinois and Oregon.
The president is saying today that he is considering invoking the Insurrection Act should the courts block his deployments.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Yeah, well, it has been invoked before, as you know. Uh, if you look at Chicago, Chicago is a great city where there's a lot of crime. And if the governor can't do the job, we'll do the job.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COATES: Joining me now, Illinois Attorney General Kwame Raoul. Welcome, attorney general. You know, as you well know, your state is suing to block these troops from being deployed in your state of Illinois. There is a court hearing set for Thursday. What is your strongest argument to persuade the court to stop it?
KWAME RAOUL, ATTORNEY GENERAL, ILLINOIS: Well, uh, first of all, thanks for having me. This is all pretext. It's this notion of he's mentioning crime when the actual order for deployment is for protection of buildings and ICE personnel and so forth. The reality is that, uh, the 10th Amendment allows us the sovereignty to do civil law enforcement from a state and local level.
Secondly, the president has long, uh, criticized Chicago and had a political animus against Chicago, and he has expressed it. He has expressed it not only over the past few months, but over the last past few years, even during the Biden administration. He said the next president should send the National Guard into Chicago. COATES: Uh-hmm.
RAOUL: So, that's not reacting to the situation at -- at -- atthe time. It's not an emergency. There's no foreign invasion, there's no --
COATES: Insurrection.
RAOUL: -- rebellion, there's no insurrection. And the federal courthouses are still open. Immigration enforcement is still happening. There's no inability to carry out federal law. So, the prerequisites, uh, towards, uh, federalizing the National Guard do not exist in -- in -- in this circumstance.
And there's plenty of evidence from the things that the president and others in his administration have said, that this is out of political animus and not out of a need for National Guard forces in Chicago. He has even said that he's going to use the American cities as training grounds for the military.
COATES: I want to talk about the immigration aspect because just yesterday, the Chicago mayor, Brandon Johnson, signed an executive order establishing -- quote -- "ICE-free zones." And that was on city property. And our own CNN's Priscilla Alvarez asked the Border Patrol chief that's overseeing enforcement in Chicago whether he will abide by this. Listen to what he had to say.
[23:30:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GREGORY BOVINO, CBP CHIEF PATROL AGENT, EL CENTRO SECTOR: We go anywhere where that threat is. And if they're going to create a sanctuary, and I just said that, another sanctuary behind signs, we'll go behind those signs and ensure that it's not a sanctuary. What a pipe dream that Mayor Johnson has -- has filled the heads of his -- of some of his constituents with. What a pipe dream that is. There is no sanctuary here in Chicago. So, Mayor Johnson, you can keep on -- keep on -- putting those executive orders out, but we're going to keep on enforcing the law.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COATES: What's your response? And are you prepared to defend the mayor's order if it is ignored?
RAOUL: Well, the mayor's order is something that is coming from the city, not the state.
COATES: Uh-hmm.
RAOUL: The reality is that, uh, again, immigration enforcement is taking place. And, uh, the folks who are violating the law here are not the city or the state. We've seen, uh, ICE enforcement violates people's Fourth Amendment rights, people who are American citizens, going into their homes, zip-tying them, zip-tying their children. Uh, if anybody is violating the law, it's -- it's -- it's the personnel under his -- under Mr. Bovino's, uh, supervision.
COATES: Do you have confidence that the court orders, if they go your way, will be enough of a deterrence for the administration to abide by him?
RAOUL: Well, we've had challenges. We've sued the administration some --
COATES: Uh-hmm.
RAOUL: -- 40 times, and we've had to go back into court after prevailing. And if we have to do so, we will do so. We've been successful in many of our -- most of our lawsuits, and we've had to go back in -- in some instances. And that's -- I trust the justice system. While I may disagree with the high court sometimes, I have respect for it.
I'm not like the president, who even a judge that he appointed, who ruled against him with regards to the deployment of the National Guard in Oregon, once he gets that ruling against him, he -- he says a judge should be ashamed of herself.
COATES: A phrase also untethered to the facts, right? I mean, you just described quite keenly in terms of what's happening in Illinois. Thank you so much.
RAOUL: Thank you for having me.
COATES: Up next, country music star Zach Bryan responding to the MAGA outrage over his new controversial song about ICE. Plus --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KATIE PORTER, FORMER CALIFORNIA REPRESENTATIVE: I don't want to keep doing this. I'm going to call it. Thank you.
JULIE WATTS, CBS INVESTIGATIVE CORRESPONDENT: You're not going to do the interview with us?
PORTER: Nope. Not like this. I'm not. Not with seven follow-ups to every single question you ask.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COATES: Katie Porter's campaign for governor in California going viral tonight, maybe for all the wrong reasons, next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[23:35:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COATES: Remember those mass layoffs the president said would happen while the government is shut down? Well, new reporting from CNN tonight indicates the plan is changing. Apparently, Republicans are growing squeamish, warning there could be blowback from any misfire -- mass firings.
One House Republican telling CNN, "We have the high ground now, but could lose it with mass firings." But this doesn't mean the firings won't happen. According to officials, Republicans could just wait longer to make them.
With me now is CNN political commentator and former National Coalition's director for the 2020 Biden-Harris campaign, Ashley Allison. I'm also joined by Republican strategist and former spokesman for Doug Burgum's 2024 campaign, Lance Trover. Lance, I want to get your reaction first to this new reporting. Did the White House somehow miscalculate the promise of mass firings?
LANCE TROVER, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: I mean, if the Democrats want to challenge Donald Trump on what he said he's going to do, then they could do that. I think we've seen with the last 10 months abroad, he's doing everything he promised he would do.
Look, I think there's nothing more political than what the Democrats are doing here. You have Republicans from Marjorie Taylor Greene to Susan Collins that kind of runs the spectrum in our party saying, we need to address the subsidy issue for healthcare. I personally think Republicans should be talking about it. We are talking about it now, but we just don't think we should shut the government down over it.
And, look, you said it yourself, it doesn't mean the firings won't happen. I think there could be a long-term plan. So, if the Democrats want to continue to draw this out and hurt people who are on furlough, potentially losing their paychecks, slowing down the airports, and doing everything they're doing, then they can continue doing that.
The president still has a 45% approval rating the last time I checked. So, my guess is inside the White House, they're -- they're -- they're okay to hold on for a little while.
COATES: Is he overconfident when it comes to what Democrats are going to be blamed for?
ASHLEY ALLISON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Probably. I think that, depending on how long this shutdown happens, like if this closes today, tomorrow, maybe Americans will forget. But if this goes on for a week, two weeks, two months, people will really start feeling the impact.
And the reality is people can try and spin it and say it's the Democrats' fault, but the reality is -- is that Republicans are in control. You have the White House, you have the Senate, and you have the House. And so, you can't say I have all the power, but then say it's somebody else's --
TROVER: There's a clean C.R. the Democrats vote down every single day.
ALLISON: But --
TROVER: Every single day, the Democrats -- you know -- you know the rule, the 60 in the Senate. I mean -- ALLISON: Yes, I know.
(LAUGHTER)
ALLISON: When you -- when you can't get 60, then you have to negotiate. And so, if you don't negotiate, then that's not leadership. And that is what Democrats -- they need to message it properly.
I also think, sure, Marjorie Taylor Greene is coming out about the subsidies, but she's worried about this, too. She was saying, and I rarely quote her as a source of reason, but she's saying, you know, right now, this is going to hurt people.
[23:40:00]
And right now, in terms of the firings, people might've said in the very beginning of the administration that DOGE, sure the president won, but the firings have had collateral consequences. People are losing their jobs more and more in the economy, and I think Americans are going to pay for it.
COATES: How about this for messaging because it's filled over into country music as well?
ALLISON: Yeah.
COATES: Country star Zach Bryan is taking aim at ICE in a new song. Listen to an excerpt.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(MUSIC PLAYING)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COATES: There has been a ton of backlash among conservatives over this. People talking about sick to your "Pink Skies." Obviously, a hit song of his as well. He is speaking out tonight, saying -- quote -- "This shows you how divisive a narrative can be when shoved down our throats. Everyone using this now as a weapon is only proving how this now -- how this -- now -- how devastatingly divided we all are." Excuse me. Does he have a point?
TROVER: Well, I don't know that it's a weapon. I mean, people respond, you know, song that he wrote and put out there. And look, it's a free country. He can do whatever he wants to do. Seventy percent of rural America, which are largely country music listeners, are MAGA voters. So, if he wants to inject himself and rip on ICE and do all that stuff, he's more than can do that. But, you know, they don't have to listen to him either.
COATES: Ashley?
ALLISON: Well, I think it's interesting. The reason why people are so upset is because people have this assumption that country music artists are going to be MAGA voters. But I think the interesting thing about the lyric is that it's factual. Kids are afraid when you hear about people being zip tied and dragged out of apartment buildings. That's not the America we want to live in. And so, he's just calling it out, truth to power.
COATES: Well, there is somebody who's running to be the California governor who hopes to speak truth to power, but there was something that was spoken today and I want to play. It's a viral interview with the Democratic candidate for California, Katie Porter. She gets particularly frustrated with a series of follow-up questions. And the interview is part of the series with every gubernatorial candidate, I should mention. The reporter says that she asks the same questions to everyone, but listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PORTER: And what I'm saying to you is that --
WATTS: Well, to those voters. Okay, so -- so you --
PORTER: I don't want to keep doing this. I'm going to call it. Thank you.
WATTS: You're not going to do the interview with us.
PORTER: Nope. Not like this. I'm not. Not with seven follow-ups to every single question you ask.
WATTS: Every other candidate has answered our follow-ups.
PORTER: I don't care. I don't care. I want to have a pleasant, positive conversation with you asking me about every issue on this list. And if every question, you're going to make up a follow-up question, then we're never going to get there.
WATTS: Just for this --
PORTER: And we're just going to circle around.
WATTS: I am an investigative reporter.
PORTER: I've never had to do this before, ever.
WATTS: You've never had to have a conversation with --
PORTER: To end an interview.
WATTS: Okay. But every other candidate has done this.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COATES: To be clear, the video released by CBS California did not show Porter leaving. Even though she said that she called it, they did talk for a little bit longer on that. You both have advised candidates. You're laughing.
(LAUGHTER) Was this a master class or a problem?
ALLISON: This is so interesting for Katie Porter because she usually is so poised and able to put out -- you know, get tough questions, give tough questions to people.
COATES: Uh-hmm.
ALLISON: And so, it's somewhat out of character, not her finest hour. I think you make a quick pivot and don't ever perform like that again in an interview.
TROVER: I do media training. This is certainly going on in the section of what not to do --
ALLISON: Right. Yeah.
TROVER: -- during an interview.
ALLISON: Not great.
TROVER: Uh, look, publicly, yes. But I do work in California politics. I think you talk to Democrats or Republicans. This is kind of par for the course for her. It's just now coming out publicly.
COATES: Is it kind of a Rorschach test, ink block test, a little bit if you like her and support her, you don't want the thought questions and the verse is true that would underline that moment or is it universally like, hmm --
ALLISON: You're running -- like you're running for governor. Like I try and say that I call balls and strikes. This was not a great interview, you know, for her. And if you're running for governor of one of the largest states, you should be able to answer a follow-up question.
TROVER: She should be able to answer questions. She is kind of bullying that reporter, too.
ALLISON: Yeah.
TROVER: That was like -- she's --
ALLISON: Just say it wasn't a great -- it wasn't a great look for her.
COATES: How she pivots from this?
ALLISON: Do another interview and answer follow-up questions.
(LAUGHTER)
TROVER: I don't think it's in her DNA to take, uh, advice from (INAUDIBLE). She's with a type person that's the smartest person in the room. Somewhat I've heard. So, I'm not sure she's going to listen to anybody, but what she wants to do. ALLISON: I don't know her. She's smart. Wasn't her finest interview. I think she can recover. I don't think that this interview is going to be determinative of her campaign, but she can't continue to do it.
COATES: We will see. Ashley, Lance, thank you both so much. Still ahead and this is direct quote -- "disgusting, over-processed hotdogs out of the lives of human beings." That's how the daughter of the late Robin Williams feels about A.I. videos of her dad and, frankly, just A.I. in general, which leads us to our question tonight: Are A.I. videos getting out of control? Will people actually want to watch A.I.-only productions?
[23:44:58]
Comedian Paul Mecurio has some thoughts on this and is with me next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COATES: A heartfelt message from someone we've lost or a real-life black mirror episode. Thanks A.I., it's the latter. Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROBIN WILLIAMS (A.I.-GENERATED): Hey, there. Just wanted to drop in and tell you something simple. I miss you.
[23:50:00]
All of you. The laughter, the quiet moments, the whole beautiful mess. Take care of each other.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COATES: That was one of many A.I.-generated videos of Robin Williams making the rounds on social media. And his daughter, Zelda, she is saying, stop, taking to Instagram, writing, "To watch the legacies of real people be condensed down to 'this vaguely looks and sounds like them so that's enough,' just so other people can churn out horrible TikTok slop puppeteering them is maddening. You're not making art, you're making disgusting, over-processed hotdogs out of the lives of human beings, out of the history of art and music, and then shoving them down someone else's throat hoping they'll give you little thumbs up and like it."
Is she right? Here to discuss is Emmy-winning comedian Paul Mecurio. He's the host of the online and Broadway show, "Permission to Speak," and the podcast "Inside Out with Paul Mecurio." He's also an attorney. Paul, first, that clip. Robin Williams had such a distinct voice and cadence.
PAUL MECURIO, COMEDIAN: Hmm.
COATES: And A.I., I guess, was able to try to capture it.
MECURIO: Yeah. COATES: But Zelda says it's not what her father would have wanted. Obviously, people who have passed away can't consent to being used like this. Should it be allowed?
MECURIO: No. I mean, I -- personally, I was a friend of Robin's. Great guy. It's -- just watching that gives me chills. It's unnecessary. As she said, it's not art. It's -- it's a huge ethical issue. It's a teaching moment for kids. Okay, you don't get to just willy-nilly take someone else's sort of life, manipulate it in the way you want, and then monetize it. That's basically saying to your kid, it's okay to cheat on a test in school. That's not what you do. Okay?
And -- and the problem is that this is -- this is going to create -- we're both attorneys. There's going to be all sorts of case law on this, right? Because when -- when you're doing copyright infringement, you're in a sense -- what this does is it's called scraping. So, it's pulling all of these performances of different actors and actresses and using it, in this case with Robin, to create this sort of persona, and then monetizing it and not compensating that person. It's no different than New York Times' suit against the OpenAI over its copyright infringement.
And, you know, the reality is that the genie is out of the bottle. Like, I don't -- you know, I don't know what -- I mean, I don't even know what the Oscars is going to be like one of these days. You're not going to have like a best actress category. It's going to be best processing speed, you know?
COATES: Hmm.
MECURIO: I mean, like, what's the -- what's the acceptance speech? I'm going to take my fans, the director, the algorithm that stitched my face together. Like, where -- where are we with this? It's -- it's very, very unsettling and inappropriate.
COATES: We saw -- I mean, aside from what it must be like for the family members of Robin Williams as well and friends and loved ones like yourself, we're watching this and thinking, all right, what if somebody is not deceased, is still with us, and you manipulate their voice, and then they're saying something that is out of character or defamatory or creates a liability for them as well? The legal implications are there.
And then there has been backlash to Sora 2. That's the newest version of the OpenAI video creation tool. And at first, we had an opt out system where people and companies had to specifically go in and request not to appear on Sora. Sam Altman says they're now changing to an opt in model. Are people losing their ability to manage their image, their voice, their likeness to these companies?
MECURIO: They are. And I -- and, you know, I -- we seem to be living in a world where what's yours is mine, what's mine is mine. There's no accountability. Um, I don't think the acting works in A.I. Acting is about chemistry. You're in a scene. You have to have that emotional connection with that person. That magic thing, that spark that happens, comes off of feeding. You cannot program that. You cannot program chemistry just like you can't teach a Roomba how to flirt. And trust me, I've tried. I know.
(LAUGHTER)
But, listen, the only upside to this is holidays with your relatives because, personally, I'd like to create my whole --
(LAUGHTER)
-- thank you. We have the same relative. Right, right, no more snide remarks. No more -- right, no more nasty looks. You create the perfect A.I. family. You have a lovely conversation with your brother-in-law. You don't get the typical passive aggressive brother-in-law who when he opens his mouth, you want to hit him in face and mash potatoes, right?
(LAUGHTER)
MECURIO: Right? Think about a holiday, Laura, where you'll never hear, Mom loved you more. Like, think about that. You'll never hear that again.
COATES: But Mom did love me more. I'm just kidding.
(LAUGHTER)
I'm the baby. I just can't -- I couldn't let it go.
MECURIO: I was a baby, too.
COATES: If A.I. is making mac and cheese, forget it. I'm not --
MECURIO: Forget it.
COATES: I'm not doing it. We are not doing it.
MECURIO: Forget it.
COATES: But, you know, this is -- this is part -- we joke about it, but the reality is, you know, there's the good, the bad, and the ugly, and the unanticipated when it comes to the creation.
[23:55:00]
And the farther we move away from human beings doing things --
MECURIO: Right.
COATES: -- maybe we become obsoletes. I don't know. Paul, you'll never be that. Not obsolete. Nice to see you, my friend.
MECURIO: Great to see you. I'll see you at Thanksgiving. You're the best.
(LAUGHTER)
That's the best mac and cheese ever. COATES: Mom loves us the same, Paul Mecurio.
MECURIO: Exactly.
COATES: Thank you.
MECURIO: She loved me more. Love you.
COATES: Oh, God. Listen. Hey, everyone, thank you so much for watching. "Anderson Cooper 360" is next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
