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Laura Coates Live

Shutdown Creates Divide Over Paid and Unpaid Federal Workers; White House Gets a Massive Makeover; Suzanne Somers's Widow Says He Has Made Her A.I. Twin. Aired 11p-12a ET

Aired October 22, 2025 - 23:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[23:00:00]

REP. SARA JACOBS (D-CA): -- for the Gen Z. Meredith Grey is the original pick me girl, which I think is important. And we can debate about McDreamy or McSteamy. I think McSteamy --

(LAUGHTER)

-- is hotter and that is an important thing we can talk about for 22 hours.

ABBY PHILLIP, CNN ANCHOR AND SENIOR POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Wow! Okay. I feel like you just sparked -- you're going to spark some debate on that one.

Everyone, thank you very much. Thanks for watching "NewsNight." "Laura Coates Live" starts right now.

LAURA COATES, CNN HOST AND SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Tonight, a tale of two governments. Some federal workers lining up at food banks, while others, picked by the administration, keep on getting paid. But how is it being decided who's going to get the paycheck and who won't? Plus, extreme makeover White House edition. The East Wing demolition that's more extensive and more expensive than we knew. And an A.I. twin of the late Suzanne Somers? Yep, it's happening. And her husband of 55 years tells me, you can't tell the difference. All ahead on "Laura Coates Live."

Now, I still remember when the government shut down, and I was one of those hundreds of thousands of workers suddenly faced with the reality that I was not going to get a paycheck. And I've told you about what that waiting was like, what that anxiety felt like, what that frustration felt like.

But this, where we are right now, this feels different. And not just because no one is talking to each other because they're not. And not just because there seems to be no end in sight. And yes, you had essential and non-essential employees when I was in a shutdown. Some were working in spite of the shutdown. Others were not able to come in at all. They weren't even allowed in the buildings. But there was an idea that we were all in it together. Even if we never, and I mean never wanted to be members in the "we've been shut down" club.

You know, this -- this time around, though, it looks like being paid isn't up to an objective definition of who is essential and who is not. It's this two-tiered system where value isn't measured by service but by politics because that's what's happening right now, it seems. Many federal workers have been frozen out, and I mean no pay and no certainty. And then you have the workers who were chosen by the Trump administration who are still collecting a paycheck.

So, on one side of the coin, we're seeing this: Government employees waiting in a line at a food bank near Washington, D.C. A line, look at this, hundreds of people long, snaking around the block. They don't know when or if they will get paid again. They are struggling to pay their rent. They're trying to keep the lights on, hoping to make those next loan payments that aren't going to pause even when their paychecks do.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SUMMER KERKSICK, FURLOUGHED WORKER: You got to save every dime at this point. You know, with rent, car note, car insurance, student loans. Those are not stopping.

PAMELIA CARTER, FURLOUGHED WORKER: We have to live. It's beyond and it goes so far, so much further than just myself, myself and a job. You know, it's the people, our stakeholders. This is their livelihood. We have a daughter, 18-year-old daughter who just started college in August. So that's a whole another bill for us.

ROLANDA WILLIAMS, FURLOUGHED WORKER: Initially, I was like, well, I'd rather let people that have no kids, you know, go to the food banks so that everyone can have food because that was okay. But now, 30 days later, you know, it's like, uh, I need to stand in line, too, you know?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: These are people who are employed by our government. They aren't numbers on a spreadsheet. These are human beings choosing between gas and groceries. And it's happening at a time when people are worried about the rising cost of living. How many times have you heard the word "affordability?" You know, most federal workers, they are making middle class salaries. More than half earn between $50,000 and $110,000 a year. Some of those federal workers you just heard from, they're going to join me in just a moment.

But I want to talk about who's on the other side of the coin. The workers that are still getting paid. Look at the headlines. ICE agents getting so-called super checks. Border Patrol still on the active payroll. Some federal law enforcement employees paid. Keyword, some.

Now, reporting from Evan Perez tonight shows the divide inside law enforcement itself. You got criminal investigative agents who are still getting a paycheck. But intelligence analysts? Nope. Support staff? Nope.

[23:05:00]

One senior law enforcement official says, "You can imagine what that is doing to morale. Our intelligence analysts are doing crucial work. Without them, cases don't get made. So, to do this doesn't send the right message."

Another employee says, all this is really pissing people off. In the split, just in law enforcement. We looked into it, okay? It's happening to people who literally in control of the skies. "The Washington Post" was reporting that air traffic controllers -- air traffic controllers are working without pay. But the federal contractors who train them, they're still getting paid, as are student trainees.

So, who's drawing these lines? Well, if you've been paying attention to what President Trump has been saying, it's pretty clear who he wants to shut down to hurt.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: We can do things during the shutdown that are irreversible, that are bad for them and irreversible by them.

The Democrats are getting killed on the shutdown because we're closing up programs that are Democrat programs that we were opposed to.

We have the people that we want paid paid, okay? And we want the FBI paid, we want the military paid. We got the people that we want paid.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: So, because the Democrats support the program, all the employees who are tasked with executing the policy are punished? I mean, there is a thing called the Hatch Act, right? It has been around since 1939. And you know what it says? We don't want federal civilian employees mixing politics with their work. Federal employees got to do their job in a nonpartisan fashion. They work for the people. They work for this system, not on behalf of their personal political party.

And yet, the president is saying what he has said. The people he wants paid. And just to be clear, okay, no one is saying the people who are still getting paid should not be getting paid. Of course, the military should be paid. Of course. But so should the people keeping our country safe and running.

But the question is standard. And what is the standard? Because the government doesn't work in silos. It's a system. Now, you can hate the idea of a bureaucracy. But we do have one. And every piece relies on the other. You start pulling pieces out like it's Jenga and the whole tower starts to shake. Agents need analysts to build their cases. The military needs the civilians who keep the supply chains going.

So, when one group is deemed essential and another is labeled politically expendable, not based on the nature of their work, but whether the work is supported by a political party while the entire structure suffers.

So, you know, tonight, I want to talk around and about them. We're going to start this show not with pundits and politicians, but by giving this platform, this time, to federal workers who are not getting paid, who are standing in those lines at food bank, and who do have a message to the country. Shimere Cooper, a contract specialist working for the federal government, Summer Kerksick, a contractor for the Department of Commerce, and Pamelia Carter, a program assistant for the Department of Agriculture.

I'm glad that you're all here today. We have been talking about the shutdown. We've heard about it from the politicians, what they are not doing, what they are doing, what they are not doing. But I want to talk to the people who are most impacted by it because that's who I want to hear from. And that's why I'm glad you're all here.

I would love to talk a little bit about where things stand. Summer, as it stands today, you're not getting paid, right? You're a contractor.

KERKSICK: Yup.

COATES: Tell me about what that's like.

KERKSICK: Well, it's not easy. It's definitely stressful given the fact that I'm a contractor. Like you said, I don't get backpay, and I haven't gotten a paycheck since the end of September.

And, you know, I think a common misconception that I see a lot of people had from the CNN article that was posted yesterday is that we don't have savings accounts or oh, you guys don't have savings accounts. Like, why don't you dip into that? But I feel like that's missing the point. It's the fact that we have to go into our savings account in the first place. But also --

COATES: To blame you, right?

KERKSICK: Right. Oh, well, this is shutdown --

COATES: But you ought to have savings.

KERKSICK: Right, right. And, I mean, it's great that I do. That's why you have a savings account. But, again, like it's the premise of it. But it's a stressful time because, you know, rent is coming up. And, unfortunately, like that deadline, you got to pay it some point. My car insurance, that's also going to be coming up along with, you know, some of the daily stuff like groceries, maybe some other things that I need. So, definitely a bit stressful time right now.

COATES: And the idea of no backpay, it's not like it's coming all of a sudden to recoup for what you are losing.

UNKNOWN: Right.

COATES: You guys are both nodding. This must be very real to you as well.

SHIMERE COOPER, FURLOUGHED WORKER: Uh, yes, pretty much.

[23:10:00] Um, I'm working also. Oh, I'm not working. And I'm not receiving pay. I haven't received pays for almost two weeks. I think this will be my first completely missed. We got a partial check before. Um, but, you know, partial means that hey, you're not getting everything that you need. Um, and some of the bill collectors have been slow to pick up that we're going through this furlough and that we might need extra time or that we might miss, and then they don't have anything set up for us.

COATES: This means your credit score could be impacted.

COOPER: Right.

COATES: Future plans, let alone the harassment. I've had bill collectors call me before.

COOPER: Right.

COATES: I mean, the harassment that comes, the stress that comes with that, that's very difficult.

COOPER: Yes, yes, yes. So, I mean, you know, it's a lot that we have to think about, um, being these furloughed federal employees. Um, so, we're just trying to navigate this whole process and trying to stay afloat.

COATES: How do you feel about this?

CARTER: Pretty much how they feel. Uh, fortunately, I'm not a contractor, so I will be getting paid, hopefully.

COATES: Someday.

CARTER: Someday. Right. Like there's no end in sight, and that's quite obvious. Uh, this is my third shutdown. I've been with the federal government for quite a few years, 38 to be exact, on the 31st of this month, the 28th of this month, actually.

COATES: This is a third shutdown you'd to go with?

CARTER: It is. It is.

COATES: Does it make you not want to continue with the work?

CARTER: It does. But, you know, everyone is like, oh, just find another job somewhere else. I have 38 years invested in the federal government. So, yeah, maybe I'll just go work at CVS because that will satisfy me. Absolutely not.

COATES: But talking about -- people don't know what that means. They have 38 years invested. That means retirement is on your horizon.

CARTER: Absolutely.

COATES: Which would mean that you'd be able to be set up really well and based on what you have done. CARTER: Absolutely. In like four years, you know, I could be out of here. You know, I'm 55.

COATES: Wow!

CARTER: So, at 59, I could be retired. But, you know, I'm holding on and I'm hoping and I'm praying. But like she said, there are bills that are due. House note, rent, water, gas, electric. I have an 18- year-old daughter who just started Morgan State in August.

UNKNOWN: Wow!

CARTER: I have a tuition.

UNKNOWN: Right.

CARTER: You know, like, what do I pay first?

UNKNOWN: Right.

CARTER: You know? So, everyone asked me, how are you? Is anything I can do? Um, probably unless you have cash.

(LAUGHTER)

I say that is just, I do, but it's -- it's reality.

UNKNOWN: Uh-hmm.

CARTER: It's reality. So, this month, yeah, we're fine. My husband, thank God, he is no longer in federal government.

UNKNOWN: Uh-hmm.

CARTER: So, that's good. So, we have that one paycheck in.

COATES: Yeah. There's a split screen, of course, that -- I mean, things are getting done in the government. There are buildings being torn down and rebuilt. There are split screens of things happening. When you see what's happening on Capitol Hill, how does it make you feel?

KERKSICK: Um, it's frustrating because we've been told all sorts of things like, oh, there's going to be progress, and then there's not. So, it can be frustrating because this is all out of your control.

COATES: Who is telling you this?

KERKSICK: Well, just me seeing on the news and seeing like, you know, news reports on, oh, there might be some progress this week or something.

COATES: Because they're not communicating with you directly, your employers at all. You're just being able to hear on the news.

KERKSICK: Right, right. So, it's a bit frustrating, you know, having to deal with something that's not in your control. You know, we can only do so much as constituents. But it's up to Congress at the end of the day to do whatever negotiations that they have to in order to end the shutdown. So, it's really kind of like in their hands.

COATES: It's about healthcare. It's about healthcare they're talking about.

UNKNOWN: Yes.

COATES: When you hear this discussion and, obviously, healthcare is extremely important, full stop. When you hear about what is the hurdle, what do you think?

COOPER: Um, I mean, I look at healthcare, and I look at it as a necessity. So, um, I would think that that would be something that we would all want to have, especially for the population who can't fight for themselves.

UNKNOWN: Right.

COOPER: The children or the disabled. Um, that we would -- we would want to fight for them and make sure that they have healthcare. So, we understand the fight. We just want there to be compromised so that we are able to go back to work and we're not affected by this, you know, the fact that they're not communicating.

COATES: Did I hear that you are a new homeowner?

COOPER: I am a new homeowner.

(LAUGHTER)

COATES: First of all, congratulations.

COOPER: Thank you.

COATES: That is nothing -- That's not for the faint of heart at times.

COOPER: Yes.

COATES: Is this your first home?

COOPER: This is my very first home. I moved around a little bit.

[23:14:59]

I thought I was going to settle in Chicago, but I've come back home. And, um, my mom came with me, so I have my mother. And we got us a house that suits both of us.

COATES: And now, the shutdown might impact --

COOPER: Yes.

COATES: -- your ability to pay your mortgage. COOPER: Yes, yes. So not to mention that, you know, moving in, you have to have savings. So, you use up a lot to -- for your down payment. So, now, it's like, oh, man, you know. Was that a good idea?

COATES: You're starting to question that.

COOPER: I mean, you know, you kind of get to that point where you're like, oh, man, I really needed this because, you know, rent is high. So, you know, you think you want to invest in something for yourself, um, that you can build upon, that you can, you know, move for yourself. You're not having to go through a landlord. This is yours. You own it. So, now, it's like, oh, did I make the right decision? But -- but I love my home. I do love it. So, I'm going to fight for it.

(LAUGHTER)

COATES: I hope you do.

COOPER: Yes.

COATES: And there should be others fighting for you.

COOPER: Yes.

COATES: We talk about the American dream and that being a part of it.

COOPER: Yes.

COATES: And then there's a nightmare happening on Capitol Hill. But you also have a food bank, I understand.

CARTER: We do. Yes, my husband --

COATES: There are federal employees who are in line now.

CARTER: Yes. And that's how I met these two young ladies yesterday --

COATES: Really?

CARTER: -- because -- yes. My husband and I, we have no limits outreach ministries. And we have a food bank, and we've been running it in house since 2021. I was floored by the amount of people. I walked the line. I walked the line just to speak to people because it's what I do in general, even on Fridays. It takes a lot to stand in a food line.

UNKNOWN: Yes.

CARTER: It does. And I just wanted to make everyone feel comfortable. You know, there were people. I ran into co-workers. That really messed me up because it made it so real for me. It really brought it home. Yes, we have a source as far as food that we can provide, and I'm grateful for that, but I told my husband, we'll need to stand in some sort of line soon, you know, because tuition, our bills are due, each and every one of us. As she mentioned, she has a new home. It's scary. It's very scary. It's unsettling. And it's like this is just not fair to us. It's just not fair.

COATES: Summer, when you hear -- obviously, you're a contractor. So, the backpay issue, right? I think people don't know that backpay is not coming for everyone. And they feel the frustration, the anger, the resentment. That's all justified when you know you are signing up for a kind of public service and this is how you're repaid.

KERKSICK: Right.

COATES: But talk about the morale among your peers knowing that you are in a similar boat with a different capacity.

KERKSICK: Yeah. I mean, morale is just kind of low at this point because, again, it's like we don't know when this is going to end, and kind of just getting to your point, that this isn't fair. Like, what did we do to deserve to not get backpay and then, you know, have to go into food lines or maybe have to ask for, you know, extensions? You know, family and friends have been reaching out to offer support, which is great, but, again, it's just like you want this to end like really soon.

COATES: All of you are the voice of so many people, and I'm so glad that we're hearing it. Thank you.

KERKSICK: Thank you.

COOPER: Thank you.

CARTER: Thank you.

COATES: Up next, the president says if he gets to $230 million that he wants from the DOJ, he gives it to charity. But his past charitable giving puts that promise to question for some. We've got the reporter with the no on Trump's finances. And ahead, overbudget and bigger than ever. I'm talking about the Trump ballroom and the uproar that it's causing. We're going to talk about all of it next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[23:20:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COATES: Yesterday, we broke down the president's bid to claim $230 million from his own Department of Justice over investigations he faced during his first term in office and during the Biden administration. And there are still a lot of questions, not about whether he can try to get this legally again. Ethically, different thought. I remind you, this is how the president proposed using this multi-million-dollar settlement should he get it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) TRUMP: I don't know what the numbers are. I don't even talk to them about it. All I know is that they would owe me a lot of money. But I don't -- I'm not looking for money. I'd give it to charity or something. I would give it to charity, any money.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: Now, there's a catch. There is no definitive word on whether or not the president will actually receive that payment. Remember, he sought it as private civilian Donald Trump. It was his right to do so. And another thing here you should keep in mind: The DOJ is actually not required to announce these settlements or the amount involved.

So, to help us read these tea leaves and all the uncertainty, I want to turn to a reporter who has long covered the finances of President Trump, senior editor at Forbes, Dan Alexander, who's also the author of "White House, Inc.: How Donald Trump Turned the Presidency into a Business."

Well, Dan, good to see you here. A lot of questions. And let's start with this one because the president's relationship with charities, I mean, it has been marked by allegations of misuse of funds and more allegations. They've been leading to legal issues surrounding, of course, the now dissolved Trump Foundation. Remind us what happened in that case.

DAN ALEXANDER, SENIOR EDITOR AT FORBES, AUTHOR: Well, there are all sorts of problems with the Trump Foundation.

[23:24:58]

I mean, Trump was using other people's money predominantly instead of his own, but acting like it was his money. And then the ways that he was using it weren't all above board. So, he bought a painting of himself. He made donation to the Florida attorney general, who at the time had oversight and was reportedly looking into investigating the Trump University. He did other things, bought a Tim Tebow-signed helmet.

All of these things were reported, and then ultimately investigated by the New York attorney general who shut down the foundation, and the court ordered him to pay $2 million.

COATES: Well, he's talking about it right now, if he were to get this $230 million, and we don't know if or when that would happen or any amount. But you say that his pledge to donate to charities does not always add up in way most people think about donations. What do you mean?

ALEXANDER: Yeah. I mean, look, there are a lot of nonprofits that aren't necessarily the most charitable groups imaginable. And Donald Trump, if you look at his past giving, uh, he sorts of gave randomly. A lot of this was, you know, to his social causes, maybe events that he went to, friends of his. He gave to a lot of sports figures. You know, Joe Torre's foundation, Derek Jeter, Annika Sorenstam, Jack Nicklaus, Tiger Woods, people who were sort of in his world. You know, he did give to some, you know, legitimate large charities. But, again, a lot of that is just sort of being on the social circuit.

And the biggest thing to remember is that the money that he was giving, most of it was not actually his. So, yes, he was giving away some money and taking credit for it but, ultimately, the money came from people who had given to his foundation, not from his own pockets.

COATES: Well, Trump is very well-versed with the legal system. I mean, we know that. Him going to the DOJ for this money, many would think, oh, this has never been done. But, in fact, people do it all the time. They have sued the federal government. They're entitled to do so if they feel agreed in certain ways.

This is different because of the president now. And, of course, the people who are going to co-sign it are his former counsel and, of course, political appointees, if they do. But this strategy didn't come from nowhere. Describe his familiarity with trying to navigate even a suit with the federal government.

ALEXANDER: Yeah. I mean, Donald Trump, one of the first public spats that he was in was in 1973 when he was 27 years old. The Justice Department sued what at the time was really his dad's company, but he had a major part in it, for allegedly discriminating against Black people in their apartments. Now, Donald Trump's lawyers told him to settle.

But hanging out one night in sort of a swanky Manhattan club, he met an attorney named Roy Cohn. And Roy Cohn said, you shouldn't settle. And together, the two of them cooked up a plan to rather than settle, sue the Justice Department for $100 million, which they did garnered a lot of press doing so. A judge quickly threw out that suit. And then the Trumps ultimately settled with the Justice Department, not admitting wrongdoing but agreeing to change some of their practices.

But the lesson that he learned, as so many in his mid-20s, was if you fight back, you can create a new story. You can make it look like things that were alleged against you were, in fact, overreaches. And now, more than 50 years later, he's in a position not just to create a new story but potentially to collect hundreds of millions of dollars.

COATES: Extraordinary power. Dan Alexander, thank you.

ALEXANDER: Thank you.

COATES: Next, the bulldozer heard all across the country as the president takes a wrecking ball to the White House to the tune of, get this, $300 million. And ahead, have you ever wished you could speak to a loved one or Suzanne Somers? Well, soon, you may be able to. Her husband says he is creating an A.I. twin two years after her death. We'll explain right here.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[23:30:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) COATES: Extreme makeover White House edition keeps chugging along tonight. Before we shout "move that bus," the ballroom project is already bigger and more expensive than first thought. President Trump expects the final cost to be around $300 million, all covered by his friends, not the taxpayer.

And to build the ballroom, the president is tearing down the entire East Wing. Yes, the whole shebang. This before and after images reveal the extent of the demolition. Most of the facade is gone. And when the work is all set and done, the renovated East Wing with the new ballroom will be 90,000 square feet or larger. It's almost twice the size, by the way, of the executive residence.

The East Wing is usually where visitors enters the White House. It's also home to the first lady's permanent office. Rosalynn Carter was the first to use it as her formal office back in 1977.

You might be wondering. Can the president remodel the White House with all the history inside of it? Well, according to Trump administration, the answer is yes, of course. There is the National Capital Planning Commission, which provides guidance for federal building construction. But the White House says it doesn't need their approval. And President Trump sounds, frankly, unimpressed with the East Wing as it is, anyway.

[23:35:00]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: There was a story in it on, which was not particularly nice. And the building was very, very much changed from what it was originally. It was never thought of as being much. It was a very small building. And rather than allowing that to hurt a very expensive, beautiful building that, frankly, they've been after for years --

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: With me now, former Trump 2024 campaign senior adviser, Bryan Lanza, and CNN political commentator Karen Finney. What's your reaction, Karen, to the changes?

KAREN FINNEY, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: You know, look, renovations happen pretty consistently from administration to administration. But I think what makes this one stands out are a couple of things. Number one, the size and the scope. The fact that he's not actually working with some of the architects and historians who have been part of previous renovations. And the cost.

And the idea that you would -- I mean, I've said this before. It's grotesque to be doing this during the federal government shutdown. I mean, you just had people on who were talking about having to go to a food bank. I think most Americans would prefer their president was more focused on lowering costs, lowering inflation than building a ballroom. And he has been obsessed with this, apparently, since his first term. And it's -- again, it's disgusting, given where we are in this country.

COATES: What's your reaction to that split screen? It's an obvious one.

BRYAN LANZA, FORMER DEPUTY COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR FOR TRUMP 2016 CAMPAIGN, FORMER SENIOR ADVISER FOR TRUMP-VANCE 2024 PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGN: Listen, I think at the end of the day, you know, he's allowed to give the White House an upgrade. The planning had been going on for several months. I'd known about the planning regarding this. And you can't control when the Democrats are going to play games with the budget, right? Like the shutdown is a result of Democrats in action. And that's fine. They're entitled to play that game.

But this has been well in the plan. And previous presidents have talked about needing a better space. And this is where we are. He is a builder. He saw the opportunity. He knows he can do it. And listen, we're about to remodel our kitchen, and we haven't even started. It's already overbudget. So, I'm not surprised --

FINNEY: And --

LANZA: -- pretty fast.

FINNEY: But that's an important point, construction tends to be overbudget. You know, here's the thing. We were just talking about you were just --

LANZA: I just think -- well, it's not taxpayer money.

FINNEY: You were -- you were just talking about the fact that President Trump wants about $240 million from DOJ. That is taxpayer money. He said he might donate it to charity. He ought to donate it to this project to help bring the cost down. I mean -- but more important, I think your point --

COATES: He said he might, by the way.

FINNEY: Might. I mean, I'm just giving -- I'm just putting that out there as an idea, sir. But --

COATES: I mean, it mattered -- Karen, aside from the split screen, if this --

FINNEY: Yeah.

COATES: -- is not during government shutdown, the fact that he is demolishing part of the East Wing, the history involved and beyond, does that resonate with voters as the reason why?

FINNEY: No. I mean, look, I think people would still be discussed that seven million Americans in every state in this country took to the streets to make their voices heard about their displeasure, about the way this president is running the country.

New polling out today, a majority of Americans, a third of Republicans, high percentages of independents and Democrats, very dissatisfied with the direction the country is going and its handling of the economy.

Again, the idea that you're more focused on building this ballroom, a grand ballroom, instead of the number one reason you got elected, to lower costs, to bring down inflation, I think that split screen, he can't run away from.

COATES: Why is this the priority?

LANZA: It's not the priority, but we learned -- we learned that this guy can multitask. You know multiple things can happen at the same time. You know, he's not driving in the nails to these things. He approved a true object of what architects brought together, and then he moves on to the next issues. This guy is -- President Trump is doing things every day faster than every other president has in the past, and that's what you're seeing. And you're seeing --

COATES: But the optics is what I mean.

LANZA: Listen, like I said, this thing had been well-planned. This thing had been scheduled to start this time. And then the Democrats decided to play games --

FINNEY: But he could have paused it. He could have said, you know what? This is not --

LANZA: Yup, but that's more cost. Any time you pause anything, that's more cost.

FINNEY: Okay. But, apparently, we are not paying for it. So, it would -- I mean, he's raising the money for it, right? I mean -- so, I mean, the point is, though, he could have said --

LANZA: It's still millions of dollars that somebody got to raise.

FINNEY: But he still could have said, you know what? This is not a good time for this. I got to focus on getting this government back open. I got to focus on the fact -- I mean, you're basically saying that the president didn't realize that the budget was coming up. He didn't realize that American's healthcare costs are about to double, and that he needs to deal with those issues. And instead, he says, go ahead and build this big, grand ballroom.

LANZA: Anything he does, the Democrats are always going to criticize. This is just --

FINNEY: This is not just Democrats criticizing.

LANZA: I think it is.

COATES: Well, it's more than just Democrats. Bryan, Karen, thank you both for being here. Tears and horror in the courtroom. The officer accused of three counts of first-degree murder for shooting a mother who just called 911 for help is now on trial. I'm talking about Sonya Massey, who lost her life in the case of the trial of the officer alleged to have taken it.

[23:40:04]

Joey Jackson breaks down the arguments made in court after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COATES: We have been covering the horrific shooting of Sonya Massey by an Illinois sheriff's deputy ever since the story first broke last year. I had the chance to speak to Sonya's father. He described her as a daddy's girl, told me he wasn't sure if his heart could bear the fact that she was killed.

Well, today opening arguments began in the trial of Sean Grayson, the sheriff's deputy facing three counts of first-degree murder for fatally shooting Massey when responding to a 911 call at her home. Grayson's lawyers say that he feared for his life, alleging he felt threatened by Massey because she was holding a pot of boiling water.

[23:44:56]

The prosecution laid out their case quite differently and quite clearly saying, Grayson -- quote -- "did not follow his training, did not follow police principles, and killed Massey without lawful justification." And the jury saw the body cam video of that encounter. We should warn you, it is very hard to watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SONYA MASSEY, SHOOTING VICTIM: Hey!

(LAUGHTER)

What are you doing? (ph)

SEAN GRAYSON, ILLINOIS SHERIFF'S DEPUTY: Huh?

MASSEY: What are you doing? (ph)

GRAYSON: I'm going away from your hot, steaming water.

MASSEY: Going away from my hot, steaming water?

GRAYSON: Yeah.

MASSEY: Oh, I'll rebuke you in the name of Jesus. I rebuke you in the name of Jesus.

GRAYSON: You better (bleep).

MASSEY: Okay. I'm sorry.

GRAYSON: Drop the (bleep) pot! Drop the (bleep) pot!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: Some jurors covered their mouths in shock when watching that. Massey's mother left the courtroom crying. Joining us now, CNN legal analyst and criminal defense attorney, Joey Jackson. Joey, the jury saw that video that we just showed. We'll note that we paused it right before Massey was shot. They saw it in its entirety. How crucial will this be to the prosecution's case?

JOEY JACKSON, CNN LEGAL ANALYST, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Hey, Laura. Always good to be with you. It's critical, right? Remember what trials are about, as you very well know as a former prosecutor. Well, it is taking the jury there. And not only does it take the jury there, but it gives them perspective and it gives them context.

Context and perspective as to what? As to whether or not, number one, Officer Grayson was in immediate fear of death or serious bodily injury. Perspective number two, whether was a threat, if any, that was posted to him, did he act proportionate to that threat by firing three shots? And number three, whether he acted reasonably.

So, oftentimes, when you're on trial, you try to convince a jury and demonstrate what happened. And this takes them there such that they can see it for themselves. And so, very difficult to watch. The jury will make the assessment as to whether or not his actions were justified. But, certainly, it's going to be compelling evidence as to what happened in this case.

COATES: As you know, the Supreme Court judges the reasonableness of an officer's feelings of safety based on another reasonable police officer. Normally, that's a hypothetical one. There was actually one on the scene. And another officer actually testified today about what they perceived. What they share?

JACKSON: Uh, not so much as it relates to what this officer did. I mean, look, the bottom line is that there's a pot of boiling water. As it relates to the pot of boiling water, you can make the argument that he felt in fear that it would otherwise come on to him. And based on it coming on to him, he could have been scolded, he could have certainly been injured.

But the fact is that she wasn't approaching, and she wasn't -- didn't seem to be in the act of throwing water on him, seemed to be in active crouching down.

COATES: Hmm.

JACKSON: In addition to that, he said and promised, I'd shoot you in the face. But beyond what any other officer would have said, what did another officer do? Not shoot. And I think that fact, no matter what you say, there would be experts in this case that'll testify, is telling onto itself as to whether or not there was a threat posed.

Ultimately, it's a jury question. A jury will have to decide despite any other officer's testimony, despite any expert testimony. But I think it's telling that if there's another officer there and is no discharge in a weapon as to that officer was a reasonable officer. And at that time, did a reasonable officer need to shoot? Another officer didn't think so, based upon their actions. COATES: Right. In fact, the other officer, responding officer, Dawson Farley, testified. I want to read people just the quote. The officer said that Sonya Massey -- quote -- "never did or said anything that made me think she was a threat." He also said that he amended his initial statement where he claimed he feared for his safety, saying, instead, he drew his weapon because of Grayson's actions. That's the defendant in this matter.

We also know that there are things that the jury is not going to hear from, hear about in terms of the officer. The motion practice has taken some things out that will be important. But we do know that Massey herself, she admitted herself into an in-patient mental health program the week of the shooting. And her mother had called 911 to report her daughter was having a mental crisis of sorts, saying that she didn't want you guys to hurt her. And I just think about what her parents must be feeling for the duration of this trial tonight, Joey. Thank you so much.

JACKSON: Yeah. It's got to be difficult, Laura. I mean, you know, this is an issue where they're going to have to determine whether or not this was justified and should it have happened. And, you know, early conclusions based on what you just noted from the other officer is it should not have. We'll see what they say.

COATES: And what the officer knew about Sonya Massey at the time. Thank you so much, Joey.

JACKSON: Thanks a lot. Appreciate it.

[23:50:00]

COATES: Well, listen, you knew her as Chrissy Snow on "Three's Company," Carol Foster Lambert on "Step by Step." Hey, you may even have bought her ThighMaster. But soon, you'll know her for her A.I. twin? I'm talking about Suzanne Somers and the A.I. twin that trained her likeness is so good her husband says he couldn't tell the difference. He'll us about it next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(MUSIC PLAYING)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: I'm sure you remember that famous trio, Jack, Janet, and Chrissy played by the iconic Suzanne Somers. Since her passing in 2023, her husband of 55 years, Alan Hamel, has longed to hear her voice, and he has partnered with company Hollow AI to create an A.I.- generated twin of his late wife.

[23:55:04]

He says both he and Suzanne have been talking about this project for decades. Now, that twin is so spot on, you can't even tell the difference. And in a world where we're constantly debating the good and the bad of A.I., Alan Hamel sees the future. Alan, welcome. I'm so glad to see you. Why did you decide to move forward with this? It's fascinating.

ALAN HAMEL, SUZANNE SOMERS'S WIDOWER: Thirty some years ago, we made good friends of Ray Kurzweil. Bill Gates calls Ray Kurzweil the smartest man on the planet, which he is, and great inventor and great futurist. He told us this was all going to happen. It took 30 years for it to happen. But he explained everything to us. He knew back then. And we were fascinated by the conversation. And subsequent to that, every so often, Suzanne and I would talk about it and wonder when is it going to happen.

COATES: Wow!

HAMEL: And -- so, we talked about doing it, her doing it. She said, I think I should do it. I think it's important. It's a new way to communicate, et cetera.

COATES: Uh-hmm.

I think we should definitely do it.

COATES: You know --

HAMEL: Those were her orders.

COATES: Oh, really? You know, some people might think, gosh, it's so -- I know we're in the world of A.I. and there are so many advancements. And then there's something that people always wanted to be able to speak to their beloved or to speak with the relative or just to hear their voice another time.

HAMEL: Yeah.

COATES: Yet it's still impossible to think that this could be happening. When you first spoke to what is being noticed, Suzanne's A.I. twin, God, what was that like for you? Could you tell the difference from the voice you always knew?

HAMEL: Actually, the first time I experienced her, because it has been in development for many months now, I talked to her for two minutes --

COATES: Uh-hmm.

HAMEL: -- and it was a little odd.

(LAUGHTER)

And then after about two or three minutes, I totally forgot I was talking to her twin. I was talking to a robot.

COATES: Wow!

HAMEL: And it was amazing, really amazing. And it is technology -- COATES: Are we talking about the way she spoke, the tone of her voice, the phrases? What was it that made you forget that this was the A.I. twin?

HAMEL: Well, the voice -- the voice was the thing we had to decide on because if you look at an interview Suzanne did in the 70s and an interview she did 10 years ago, it's a whole different voice.

COATES: Hmm.

HAMEL: So, we had to decide what age voice she would have, what section of her life. So, we did that.

COATES: How did you decide which one?

HAMEL: Well, I knew her. I probably knew her better than anybody. So, I was able to give instruction to the creator relative to the voice. A little here, little take, a little down, et cetera. And so, finally, we got the voice. The voice is perfect. Perfect. And I'm so anxious.

What's going to happen now is the creator is going to work on finishing up in the next couple of weeks. And then it will come to me, and I will have it for -- I don't know how long.

COATES: Uh-hmm.

HAMEL: Basically, my job is to go through it and ask questions, and test her, and make sure that everything is the way we discussed it, the way we agreed to do it, and that it's the best possible version that we can do at this moment.

COATES: Alan, I know we have to -- we don't have much time, but can I ask you this question and I --

HAMEL: Yeah.

COATES: -- have to beg your pardon with this because I know that this was and is the love of your life, 55 years of marriage, a wonderful life together.

HAMEL: Right. Yeah.

COATES: Will this make you feel her presence? That you maybe miss her less?

HAMEL: That's an interesting question. I hadn't thought about it. Well, here's the thing. I've got hundreds of hours of family movies on film and tape.

COATES: Uh-hmm.

[23:59:58]

HAMEL: So, you know, when I need to be with the real Suzanne, she's in my office next door.

COATES: Uh-hmm.

HAMEL: So -- but that's an interesting question. I'm going to think about that. Thank you.

COATES: Well, Alan, thank you for being here and sharing this experience and this journey. I think people are fascinated and, of course, loved your wife. Thank you.

HAMEL: Yeah. Thank you. Thank you.

COATES: Hey, thank you all so much for watching. "Anderson Cooper 360" is next.