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Laura Coates Live

Maduro Pleads Not Guilty In New York Court; Trump Insists The U.S. In "In Charge" Of Venezuela; Hegseth Moves To Demote Kelly And Cut Pay Over "Illegal Orders" Video. Aired 11p-12a ET

Aired January 05, 2026 - 23:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[23:00:00]

ABBY PHILLIP, CNN ANCHOR AND SENIOR POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: All right.

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PHILLIP: All right. Everyone, thank you very much. Thanks for watching "Newsnight." You can catch me any time on your favorite social media, X, Instagram, and TikTok. "Laura Coates Live" starts right now.

LAURA COATES, CNN HOST AND SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: A defendant being arraigned on drug charges, gun charges. Well, that's routine. But today, nothing was routine because not every day you see something like this: The ousted leader of a foreign country crouched under the spinning blades of a helicopter about to be perp walk before his arraignment on drug trafficking, conspiracy, weapons charges.

But not in his own country. No. It was in Lower Manhattan where the crowd gathered with conflicting protest messages right outside. It was at a federal courthouse in the country that captured him. I was inside that courthouse watching it all play out.

For the moment you stepped inside the courthouse, there were dozens of DEA agents. Uniformed armed officials were everywhere. From the moment the self-proclaimed Venezuelan president, Nicolas Maduro, and his wife walked into the courtroom unshackled, nothing short of captivating. They were each given headphones. They were listening to an interpreter. There was a slight delay when they were responding to judges' questions. And from the moment Maduro saw the legal pad on the desk, he began writing furiously. I'm talking turning pages, quickly filling them up. Now, he is a large man in stature, he was confident, he was imposing, he was direct, but he was respectful of the court. There weren't any outbursts. There was no fist pounding. There was no talking over anyone or the judge or any real visible annoyance. He spoke only when spoken to.

But when he had the floor, that man held it. He was only asked to confirm he was indeed Nicolas Maduro. But he didn't give a yes or no answer. Instead, he said this: "I am Nicolas Maduro Moros. My name is President Nicolas Maduro Moros. I am president of the Republic of Venezuela. And I am here kidnapped, and I -- since January 3rd, Saturday, I was captured at my home in Caracas, Venezuela."

And the judge actually cut him off to say, "Let me interfere here. There will be a time and a place to go into all of this," telling Maduro the legal questions about his capture, the motions that were going to be filed about potential immunity, all that would come at a later date. He only wanted to know his name. And shortly after Maduro gave it, he declined to have all of the charges read in length to him.

Instead, he asked to read the indictment that he said he was only seeing and holding in his hands for the first time today privately. He was even advised of his right to an attorney or one to be appointed to him if he couldn't afford one. And he said he actually wasn't even aware of those rights before. And for the record, he already has Julian Assange's attorney. But the judge asked him how he wanted to plea. He said, and again, this is all in Spanish, "I am innocent. I am not guilty. I am a decent man."

The whole time, he is writing. He even asked for his notes to be respected, was the word he said, seeming to suggest that they could be kept private from the gaze of the marshals and prosecution and also to keep them with him. And the prosecutor said they would work with the marshals to make that possible.

Now, meanwhile, his wife, just a lawyer away from him, she had her hands on her lap under the table. She was being directed by her attorney to read along the indictment as she seemed to nod kind of slightly.

Now, Maduro, he appeared to walk with a bit of a limp. He even braced himself on the arms of his chair as he was repeatedly standing up and sitting back down to address the court whenever he was prompted.

Now, Maduro's wife seemed to have her own injuries. Now, I have no idea when, how or where she got them. But they appeared visible. She had bandages on her forehead and her white temple. She would sort of nod her head occasionally. Her lawyer said there was some severe rib bruising or an injury. Her demeanor, it was a lot different from her husband. If Maduro was confident, direct, louder, well, she was more reserved. She was more soft-spoken.

[23:05:00] And Maduro, he was turning his body and straining to hear her and see her as she spoke. At one point, they exchanged glances. And she only really ever spoke along with her attorney after his attorney and he spoke. And she also said that she was the first lady and pleaded not guilty.

Now, he spoke to his own lawyers, he spoke to her lawyers as well, and he was passing a note at one point to her lawyer and asking for responses back in his ear.

But It was Maduro who provided one of the courtroom's most dramatic moments, because at the very end of what otherwise would have been a routine arraignment of drug and conspiracy-related charges, well, there was a man inside the quorum in the audience who stood up and called him an illegitimate president, suggesting that he would pay for what he had done in some way. And Maduro didn't just walk past. No, he looked directly at him, seemed to sort of point towards the sky to say that he was a man of God and shot back, "I am a kidnapped president. I am a prisoner of war."

That would happen in the courtroom. But across the world, Maduro's ouster is raising all kinds of questions like, who's actually running Venezuela? Is it Venezuela's new acting president who was just, by the way, sworn in today? Is it someone else? Could you ask the president of the United States? He's in charge, suggesting tonight the buck, it stops with him. The buck in Venezuela which, frankly, echoes what he said last night.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: We're dealing with the people. We're dealing with the people. She just got sworn in. And don't ask me who's in charge because I'll give you an answer and it will be very controversial.

UNKNOWN: What does that mean?

TRUMP: It means we're in charge.

UNKNOWN: Have you spoken with her?

TRUMP: We're in charge.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: Removing a foreign leader, huge risk. But what's even riskier? Figuring out how to run a country after you've removed its leader.

I want to begin with Democratic congressman from Massachusetts, Seth Moulton, who serves on the House Armed Services Committee. He's also a Marine Corps veteran who served four tours in Iraq. Congressman, thank you for being here.

Listen, the Gang of Eight was briefed by top Trump administration officials tonight. Congressman Jim Himes telling CNN that briefing showed -- quote, -- "he doesn't have a plan." Do you have any idea sitting here tonight how the president of the United States intends to run Venezuela?

REP. SETH MOULTON (D-MA): No. I mean, that's a polite way to say the president doesn't have a clue, doesn't have a clue what he has gotten into here. And it just shows the administration's priorities, that it turns out they briefed the oil companies about this operation, but they didn't brief anyone in Congress.

But even more than that, Laura, they did tell us in the last several weeks that they absolutely would not do what they just did. So, when they briefed us previously, and we asked this question, do you plan to put troops on the ground in Venezuela, do you plan any ground operations in Venezuela, are you planning operations in Venezuela and not just illegally attacking these boats off the shores, they said explicitly, no, no, no. So, all along, they've been lying to Congress and to the American people.

COATES: They seem to think they have no need to tell you as Congress because there was not a declaration of war otherwise. They're also afraid of leaks. What's your response?

MOULTON: Well, actually, they're afraid of leaks. But it turns out that someone they told did leak this because "The Washington Post" and "The New York Times" knew about the operation in advance, but decided not to disclose it to protect our troops. They told the oil companies in advance. Maybe that's where the leaks came from.

Or maybe they came from the leaker in chief, the commander in chief who, of course, stole troves of classified documents, put them in a bathroom at his Florida beach resort. And then, of course, his secretary of defense disclosed classified information about future operations to his friends and family because he seemed to think it was cool and interesting.

So, I mean, these are ridiculous excuses for not following the Constitution. That's the bottom line.

COATES: I want to talk about the troops specifically. I certainly hear the claims you're making. But most Americans want to know if the president is saying that the U.S. is in charge of another country. And Stephen Miller says the U.S. is in charge due to military might. And the president is saying he's not now afraid of boots on the ground. Will American service members be put there?

[23:10:00]

MOULTON: It certainly sounds like it. It certainly sounds like it. Let's remember that, again, every step of the way, the administration has lied and misled the Congress and the American people. So, any assurance that we've received in the past, that we wouldn't be putting troops on the ground, is not something that we can trust.

And there are a lot of troops, thousands of Marines, the last time I checked, just off the shores of Venezuela. I've been a Marine on one of those amphibious assault ships. They're infantry Marines. They're not there to intercept boats. They're not there to conduct a naval blockade. They're there to go in on the ground. So, I think it's a safe assumption to say that this administration does, in fact, plan to run Venezuela. And that means American troops are going to be on the ground to do what? Not protect the sovereignty of the country. Stephen Miller doesn't believe in that. He thinks that we should just take it over. Not to protect the Venezuelan people to ensure democracy. Not even to protect our national interests. It's just to protect the interests of the oil companies.

COATES: All right. Well, you think Congress should have been notified. They were not. You mentioned that he has already admitted to having told the oil companies. You are a co-equal -- a member of a co-equal branch of government. Obviously, you're talking to a lawyer. So, I look at the legal system and think what can be done to stop it.

But this is clearly an indication now of maybe ask for forgiveness rather than permission because he's sitting right now, Maduro that is, in MDC at a detention facility in the United States of America.

So, what can Congress do about it, if anything, now that, frankly, you weren't told and he's already here?

MOULTON: Look, we weren't told, and we can have a debate about exactly when we should be told. I think it's pretty clear that we should have been told. But the biggest thing, Laura, is that we were lied to. And he's lying to us in Congress. He's lying to the American people. It's very obvious --

COATES: OK. But congressman, say he is --

MOULTON: -- he doesn't have a plan to come --

COATES: Excuse me. Say he is. OK, I'll give you all of that for the sake of conversation. What can you do about it now? Because, obviously, the bureaucratic machine of Congress and our federal system is slow compared to the pace at which our military went in and captured him and brought him to our states. So, tell me, is there anything or is Congress -- are their hands tied now that the president has acted? Can you do anything about it?

MOULTON: No. We absolutely can. In fact, I have written the legislation that will prevent taxpayer funds from going to ground operations in Venezuela. We can vote on that this week and stop any of the hundreds of millions of dollars at this point of taxpayer funds that are not going to make your health care more effective or more affordable, that are not going to reduce the cost of housing, that are going to support ground troops in Venezuela. We can stop that funding, and we should have that vote.

Now, will Speaker Johnson and the Republicans who run Congress allow us to have that vote? Probably not. But absolutely, there's something Congress can do.

COATES: Let's talk about the State Department because they post on social media. "This is our hemisphere, and President Trump will not allow our security to be threatened." He's also hinting, President Trump, at more U.S. action, including in places like Cuba and Colombia and Greenland. And I'm only naming a few, congressman.

What do you think the end game is here? If the indictment is about drug trafficking, narcotics and conspiracy, destructive devices in the Venezuela matter, what do you think the end game is beyond that given President Trump's repeated references to oil?

MOULTON: Well, one might say the end game is oil. I mean, that at least seems to fit with the Republican agenda, really the Republican agenda of the last 20 years.

But this is why I keep coming back to this point that he's just plain lying to us and to the American people because we don't know. We don't know. We can't believe anything that he says.

There is no national security threat from Greenland to the United States. Let's be clear, there's really no national security threat from Venezuela to the United States. Is Maduro a terrible guy? Is the country a mess? Yes. Are they threatening the United States like they're going to attack the United States? Absolutely not. So, he is just going to make up reasons to go anywhere.

So, I'm just going to throw something out there. All right? Let's just think about this for a second. We don't know exactly what his aim is. But I'll tell you one thing. We're not talking about the price of health care right now. We are not talking about Jeffrey Epstein. So, in a lot of ways, this is just classical -- classic political playbook.

When you've got some serious domestic issues, which we know Trump has, he starts a foreign war, doesn't care about putting American lives in danger, all to distract attention from the trouble that he's in at home. That's the best guess I have about what's going on here.

[23:14:57]

COATES: Quickly, congressman, many people have criticized Democrats for criticizing tactics, but agreeing with an underlying policy. You have said that Maduro is -- to paraphrase you -- not an appropriate, not a good person, not a good leader. Would you have agreed with his removal if the tactic by Trump had been different?

MOULTON: No. We can all want Maduro to be gone. I mean, I want Putin to be gone, too. But that doesn't mean that we should fly into Moscow and take out Putin. I mean, it's just wrong, it's illegal. And most importantly, it's not in our national interest. It's not in the national security of the interest of United States. It is not worth risking American lives to do.

Sure, Trump got lucky here. That's great. But at some point, Americans are going to get killed because of these shenanigans. And if it's just to distract attention from the stuff he's got going on at home, that's not illegal. It's completely immoral and the American people should not stand for it.

COATES: Congressman Seth Moulton, thank you for joining.

MOULTON: Thanks for having me, Laura.

COATES: There's a lot more to discuss in terms of the legality of the operation that is certainly forthcoming. I also wonder, how do you prosecute a case when there's so much evidence that you know is classified? Perhaps covertly obtained by the CIA. And what about the actual arrests in the first place? I mean, it all makes for what my next guest says will be one of the most complicated legal cases in American history. And we're going to unpack it all next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[23:20:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PAM BONDI, UNITED STATES ATTORNEY GENERAL: America and the Western Hemisphere is safer tonight.

TODD BLANCHE, UNITED STATES DEPUTY ATTORNEY GENERAL: The United States has an absolute legal right to go and arrest people charged with horrible crimes, including narco-terrorism. What we did was not only right and not only legal, but it's what the American people expect us to do when we file charges against individuals like him.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: Well, there you have it, the top two leaders of the DOJ showing a united front in their case against Nicolas Maduro and, of course, his wife. As the ousted Venezuelan leader insists, he is a "prisoner of war" -- unquote -- "not a criminal defendant."

There are some pretty thorny legal questions about his arrest and the future of this case. Here to answer some of those questions, former assistant U.S. attorney for the District of Columbia, Greg Rosen. Good to see you, Greg. I got to tell you, I'm outside the courthouse today and somebody shouts out, Coates, legal or illegal? That about sums up the big question that people have with respect to what transpired here.

Greg, all eyes are on the 1989 memo from the former A.G., Bill Barr. And in it, it's stated the FBI could go into a country, they could arrest someone under criminal indictment and bring them back to the United States. And you know what? Bill Barr addressed this recently and said it also applies to Maduro. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BILL BARR, FORMER ATTORNEY GENERAL: The Supreme Court has been clear. It doesn't matter how he got here. Once he's in front of the court and he's been charged, he stands trial and can be convicted.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: Hmm. Sound legal opinion. What do you think? GREG ROSEN, FORMER ASSISTANT U.S. ATTORNEY, DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA: Hey, Laura. Nice to be here. I think legally, he's correct. You know, there's going to be a difference, obviously, in this upcoming trial and in this litigation between the body, Maduro and his wife, being in the United States, being subjected to the jurisdiction of the United States.

And I think there's a doctrine called the Ker-Frisbie doctrine. There's some legal case law that's born out of the Manuel Noriega prosecution that pretty much says what Attorney General Barr said, which is that the bodies here in the United States, the prosecution can go forward.

COATES: So, translation, even if there is some issue with having him brought here, it doesn't erase the indictment that, frankly, has been years in the making. It might delay something else in some way?

ROSEN: Yes. So, it won't erase the indictment and it won't erase the prosecution or the ability of the government to prosecute. But there are some thorny issues here, right? You're going to be dealing with some of the legal issues that deal with the legality of the actual seizure of Nicolas Maduro. You're going to be dealing with head of state immunity. You're going to be dealing with prisoner of war conditions, as he so claimed in court.

You know, those are the things that are going to sort of complicate the picture coupled with the factual narrative, exactly how this all transpired. So, that doesn't mean it's going to bar the prosecution, but it is going to present some complicated issues.

COATES: And, by the way, in court today, they did not move for bail to be released, pending trial. They said they're going to stay or waive their right to a speedy trial until March 17 to try to flush out some of the very things you are talking about, including discovery and other things.

But everyone keeps going back to the reference to Manuel Noriega. You say that that case was easier possibly to pursue than this one. What makes it harder in this case?

ROSEN: So, right as a backstop, Manuel Noriega was prosecuted in the Southern District of Florida, and that was for narcotrafficking, what they call narcotics trafficking. This is a little bit different because this deals with designation of foreign terrorist organizations and, in fact, the designation of foreign terrorist organizations that occurred post 2020, which proceeds or is after the original 2020 indictment of Nicolas Maduro. And so, I think there are some complicated legal issues with respect to subsection 960A.

I also think there's going to be huge factual differences. In the case of Noriega, there was an armed conflict where there was actually a declaration of war by the Panamanian Assembly, which prompted and eventually resulted in a death of a service member in which President Bush then went in and used force in Panama. That's a little bit different than this scenario where you don't have armed conflict that precedes it. You also don't have the same factual predicate of the Panamanian

leader. Manuel Noriega was no longer president at the time that he was captured. Whereas here, the government tries really hard.

[23:25:00]

And you see that in the indictment, calling him the illegitimate but de facto ruler of Venezuela. But there was no alternative ruler. The State Department, the government never designated anybody else. And so, since 2019, the United States hasn't recognized Maduro, but that's going to complicate whether or not he actually can avail himself of head of state immunity, which is something that was rejected in the Noriega case.

COATES: That would be fascinating to see, how that all unfolds. But also, the way this case is going to operate. I mean, the government has been compiling like 25 years-worth of alleged evidence. You're talking about classified material as well. How the court is going to navigate? Will it be a kind of a filter team in place?

I should note, Maduro's attorney is Julian Assange's attorney as well. Certainly, he is accustomed to the idea of classified information. But what's it to be like to try to go through this and have an expedited or even a timely trial?

ROSEN: I think it's highly unlikely you're going to see an expedited trial in this case. The Classified Information Procedures Act, also known as CIPA, is what's going to guide this litigation. And what's going to happen is they're going to be dealing with different subsections of CIPA to determine whether or not, first, there's discoverable material in the holdings of the United States of any law enforcement or intelligence agency that has any connection with this case.

So, think about, over the course of 20 years, potentially the covert or overt materials that the government has obtained to include communications of, let's say, Nicolas Maduro and leaders of China, Russia, Cuba, Iran. Those are the types of things that we're talking about during the course of CIPA litigation.

And Nicolas Maduro's counsel, Barry Pollack, is likely going to seek additional discovery, that anything that goes to undercut the intent or knowledge of his client vis-a-vis, those charges is going to be Brady material, constitutional material that needs to be turned over. It doesn't matter if it's classified. CIPA deals with the procedures on how to deal with classified information. That's going to make this one of the most complicated features of this prosecution.

COATES: And, of course, you wonder if the co-defendants, husband and wife, will now remain together for those very reasons. So much to unpack. Something tells me this is not a 2026 trial, Greg Rosen. Thank you so much.

ROSEN: Thank you.

COATES: Still ahead, gaming out scenarios for what happens next in Venezuela from the good, the bad, and the ugly. Plus, 200 troops, three minutes. The incredible new details emerging tonight about the nighttime raid to capture Maduro. And later, the political question that some in MAGA are trying to navigate. How is taking control of Venezuela America First, exactly? Well, the panel is live to debate it, straight ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[23:30:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COATES: Breaking tonight, there are new reports of chaos in Caracas, Venezuela as gunfire erupts near the presidential palace. Gunshots and anti-aircraft fire pierced the tense calm that was apparently there.

The question is, what caused it? Well, apparently, a misunderstanding between paramilitary groups tied to the regime. Conversations heard by CNN suggest there was a drone flying overhead that sparked the gunfire. Venezuela's communications ministry says the drones were flying without permission. The White House says it's tracking reports but adds -- quote -- "The U.S. is not involved." The city is now calm. But it's clear that Venezuela is on edge as it heads down quite the uncertain path.

And let's talk about all of that and what might be next for Venezuela with military expert and senior fellow at the Atlantic Council, Alex Plitsas. Alex, thank you so much for being here as we're unpacking what is before Venezuela, frankly, and the rest of the globe. Talk to me about what those potential paths forward might even look like for Venezuela. Now we know president says that he is in charge. But what is the best-case scenario here?

ALEX PLITSAS, FORMER DEFENSE DEPARTMENT AND PENTAGON OFFICIAL, MILITARY EXPERT: So, the best-case scenario would be a peaceful transition from what seems to be a regime official at this point. So, the vice president of Venezuela, who was also illegitimately elected with Maduro, is in charge right now.

So, what we're hearing is that the Venezuelan Supreme Court has verified that she is the, for all intents of purposes, the acting president at the moment since Maduro is here in New York, you know, facing trial. You're obviously in court today.

And it was kind of unclear as to whether or not there was coordination with the administration ahead of time. But what came across was interesting comments from the president. So, the first question, what about Machado? Could she take over the opposition leader?

COATES: The Nobel Peace Prize winner, I should mention, as well.

PLITSAS: Precisely. You know, the opposition overwhelming elected by the people. The president, well, she doesn't have the gravitas or the authority or whatnot within the country to take over. He said, well, I think, you know, Venezuela has a vice president. So, it was kind of alluded to that he had some sort of briefing somebody was coming, but it wasn't clear that a decision had been made.

Then there was a defiant comment from her, you know, a few hours later, that we're not going to -- you know, we want our president back, this is illegal, and everything else. And then the next day --

COATES: Delcy Rodriguez. You're talking about the interim.

PLITSAS: Yes. And then 24 hours later, mysteriously, after she's in charge at a cabinet meeting, said, well, we're willing to work with the U.S. on an agenda to get there.

COATES: So, can we trust her?

PLITSAS: It's -- I don't think she knows where everything is at the moment. And that's because we saw a video where she was then embracing the Chinese ambassador, the Russian ambassador, the Iranian ambassador. And I think until this sort of gets sorted out, she's trying to figure out where to turn.

So, I think they're trying to avoid future military action of the United States. But, at the same time, I don't think they want to cut off lifelines to the access that kept the Maduro regime alive which is, obviously, Russia, Iran, China, North Korea, etcetera.

COATES: I had to play this sound that came out from tonight.

[23:34:59]

Actually, Maria Corina Machado was actually on Fox News this evening. Listen to what she had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEAN HANNITY, FOX NEWS HOST: Did you at any point offer to give him the Nobel Peace Prize? Did that actually happen? I had read that somewhere. I wasn't sure if it was true.

MARIA CORINA MACHADO, VENEZUELAN OPPOSITION LEADER: Well, it hasn't happened yet. But I certainly would love to be able to personally tell him that we believe the Venezuelan people because this is a prize of the Venezuelan people. Certainly, want to give it to him and share it with him. What he has done, as I said, is historic. It's a huge step towards a democratic transition.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: It seemed to me she was a little bit caught off guard by the precision of that question. But is that somehow going to be persuasive in terms of whether she would take power?

PLITSAS: Well, I think there were some comments that were made about whether or not, you know, President Trump didn't like her because she got the Nobel Prize that he was actively seeking this year.

But I did speak to some folks in the intelligence community today, both at the CIA and a couple other agencies, and they did confirm that there was an assessment made that -- the agency, I guess, determined that trying to hand in this situation, control of the country, over to the opposition when we weren't going to send in ground forces from the beginning can lead to regime change. From there (ph), how were they going to unsit (ph) the government that was there?

And so, for a transition period, it was a determination made by the intelligence community or advice to the administration that they should probably select somebody from the, you know, from the sitting regime, but that's against the will of the Venezuelan people.

COATES: Listen to what Secretary Hegseth had to say about how this all played out. It was stunning to think of how little notice Maduro even had that they were at his front steps. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PETE HEGSETH, UNITED STATES SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: He didn't know they were coming until three minutes before they arrived. In fact, his wife said, "I think I hear aircraft outside." They didn't know. You know why? Because every single part of that chain did their job, and they did it flawlessly.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: Two hundred personnel from the U.S. took part in the raid somehow. Tell me a little bit about this planning. It seemed to be meticulous. But also, there were fatalities around Maduro's Cuban guards. No U.S. troops were killed. Walk me through how this all was carried out.

PLITSAS: Sure. So, the preparation and planning for the raid began several months ago. So, the decision that this was going to be the course of action that was presented to the president has gone back at least two, if not three months.

Just like in the Bin Laden raid, the intelligence community and Special Operations Command, they built a full mock-up of the compound. And so, you'll have, within the intelligence community, engineers and folks of that background who can actually look at a building from the outside, have a human source on the inside, and determine how it was constructed, even the materials are almost similar or should be, so that it's as real as possible.

And so, for many months, a squadron from the U.S. Army's Delta Force was training on the compound. And then it became clear that they were going to -- the path that they chose to pursue for the operation was to execute a warrant for Maduro tied back to those indictments in 2020. The superseding indictment released, you know, by the attorney general shortly after his capture.

And so, to do so, what became commonplace during the global war on terror is to have FBI special agents from the Hostage Recovery Team, HRT, which was stood up in the 80s after Reagan sent Delta Force in the prison in Atlanta. When there was an uprising, they realized there was issues with Posse Comitatus and they needed a domestic force to be able to do similar types of things. The FBI stood up this capability. So, some of those agents were attached. And all of them came in then via helicopters. They trained for many months on the compound. They even brought torches to the compound, you know, to be able to actually weld open the doors if they had to, if you got the safe room.

COATES: Unbelievable. Thank you so much, Alex Plitsas. We will learn more, I'm sure, maybe in the days, perhaps, months to come. Thank you.

I want to dig into the political fallout, and there is political fallout, with Ben Ferguson, host of "The Ben Ferguson Show" and co- host of "Verdict with Ted Cruz." Also here, Joe Walsh, former Republican congressman turned Trump critic and Democrat and director of "The Social Contract." Thank you both for being here.

I want to begin with you, Ben, because there have been many pro-MAGA lawmakers who are actually calling out the president over Venezuela like the outgoing congressman in about what? Thirty minutes or so? Marjorie Taylor Greene. Let's do this.

BEN FERGUSON, RADIO HOST, PODCAST CO-HOST: Yes.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. MARJORIE TAYLOR GREENE (R-GA): I unapologetically support America First. And as an American, it's OK to disagree with the president that I helped to get elected and it's OK to disagree with other Americans. But what's not OK is for our government to put their full focus on foreign countries.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: Does she have a point or is she missing the forest through the trees?

FERGUSON: Yes, I think she's just trying to stay on T.V. for the last 35 minutes of her career before her pension she gets. And she's obviously not looking at all the other issues that the president is dealing with the United States of America. We've got a lot going on here.

It also doesn't mean the president doesn't have an obligation of duty to keep us safe. And we know how many Americans have been killed because of narcotrafficking and drug trafficking coming in from Venezuela.

[23:40:01]

The president was very clear. He gave multiple off ramps. Maduro chose not to do that. And now, he's sitting in a jail cell in the United States of America in the same, basically, vicinity of where you are right now in New York where lot of the staff is.

And I think this is the point that the president has made clear. If you are causing harm, whether you're in Colombia, whether you're in Mexico, whether you're in Venezuela, and you're killing innocent Americans with drugs, and we declare that you are a terrorist organization, we will come after you, we will hunt you down, we will find you, we will bring you to justice.

And far too many Americans have died, unfortunately, from fentanyl overdose. I know some personally. If you've ever sat with family members, they talk about this. There are a lot of innocent people that had no intent on dying, and they died because of a fake pill, because of guys like this. He deserves what he gets.

COATES: Well, Joe, what's your response to all of that?

JOE WALSH, PODCAST HOST, FORMER ILLINOIS REPRESENTATIVE: Respectfully, this didn't have anything to do with drugs. I think that went out the window a long, long time ago. I mean, the former head of Honduras, just a bigger drug pin than Maduro, just got a big, old pardon from Donald Trump.

Look, on Marjorie Taylor Greene, she's right. I mean, whose -- and I'm not America First, but America First is not about regime change and it's not about invading other countries and then taking over that country's economy.

Laura, right now, Lindsey Graham is like over the moon excited with what Donald Trump is doing. Marjorie Taylor Greene doesn't support it. Lindsey Graham is not America First. He was the antithesis of this. I don't think it will matter because the support for Trump will be there because it is adoration of him. And it's not really issues-based.

COATES: There have been some though, Ben, on both sides of the aisle who confirm and believe that Maduro is an illegitimate leader, that he is not, as he said, a decent man in court.

But there is a lot of disagreement on the tactic employed because, frankly, you've given us a list of several countries, there are other countries to which there is that shared opinion that President Trump has not overseen or, you know, confirm this sort of behavior and this operation.

Do you have a sense as to why Venezuela and not the other countries engaged in behavior that has a harmful effect either on Americans, on democracy, on illegitimacy? Why Venezuela? Because many just think it is oil. What do you think?

FERGUSON: I think it's a couple of different reasons. Number one, this is as bipartisan as it gets. Even Joe Biden said that he was the illegitimate leader of the country. We have not as a nation since, I mean, the beginning of his administration, the end of the Trump administration, said that Maduro was the leader of this country when he stole that election. That's number one.

Number two, there's a national security issue here from the drugs and the cartels. Number three, there is also a national security issue from China, Iran, and others that want to get into Venezuela, and they have proximity to our country. When you come -- when you look at nuclear weapons, it's a 30-minute strike from Venezuela. It is very clear that Iran and China and Russia wanted to have a major cooperation with Maduro, and we're helping him by buying his oil. We know this is a fact. In fact, we were warned about it by Chuck Schumer, who warned us from the floor of the United States Senate in his own words. In fact, he mocked Donald Trump at the end of his administration the first time and said, you haven't done enough to take him out, you haven't done enough to go after him. Well, now, it has been done.

So, it doesn't get any more bipartisan than this. So, now, you're just dealing with hypocrisy. That's all this is.

COATES: Well, let me ask you, Joe. Hold on, Ben. Let me ask -- I hear you.

FERGUSON: -- from the floor of the Senate.

COATES: Do you hear me, Ben? Hold on. Joe, I'm going to ask you what your reaction is because Ro Khanna -- Congressman Ro Khanna has been calling out Democrats for not speaking out more, calling the silence from some 2028 frontrunners shocking. There have been questions about the underlying agreement that Maduro is a bad guy, but also frustration with the tactic that has been used. Instead, how do Democrats criticize the operation without looking like they are taking the side of a dictator?

WALSH: Laura, I'll combine both of your questions. It is about why Venezuela. It's oil. It's oil, it's oil, it's oil. Look, Ben, I would assume, would believe what the president of the United States said. Donald Trump said, why Venezuela? The oil. Stephen Miller went on this network earlier today and said we invaded the country, we invaded it militarily, we took over their natural resources.

[23:45:00]

Again, I think Ro Khanna is right, Laura, that -- how do you go after this? Donald Trump cares more about Venezuelan oil than he does about problems here in America. I think that will resonate with voters.

COATES: We'll see. Ben, Joe, thank you both.

FERGUSON: Laura, let me say this one thing about Trump.

COATES: We're not done talking about it. What do want to say, Ben? Go ahead.

FERGUSON: I'll say this about President Trump.

COATES: Can I follow you on Twitter and I can read it there instead? Let's do that. Thanks, Ben. Thanks, Joe.

FERGUSON: No, no. It's about -- it's about --

COATES: Still ahead, Secretary Pete Hegseth escalates his war against Senator Mark Kelly, officially moving to strip him of his rank and even dock his retirement pay. Will the Navy actually follow through and is this even really about what the senator said? Iraq War veteran Paul Rieckhoff live with me on that very point next. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COATES: So, remember this controversial video that drew fierce backlash from the White House where lawmakers told service members that they could disobey or not follow illegal orders?

[23:49:56]

Well, tonight, the defense secretary, Pete Hegseth, is taking steps to punish one of those lawmakers you see in that video, Arizona senator and retired Navy captain, Mark Kelly, launching proceedings aimed at reducing Kelly's retired military rank, which would in turn cut his retirement pay, even threatening criminal prosecution should Kelly continue to speak out.

Just hours ago, Kelly made it clear, he has no intention of backing down.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. MARK KELLY (D-AR): I'm never going to back down from these guys. I'm going to continue to speak out. I'm going to continue to do my job. And as much as I can, highlight how wrong these people are and how outrageous this is and how dangerous. So, I'm not going away.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: Well, joining me now is Paul Rieckhoff. He is the founder and CEO of Independent Veterans of America and the host of the podcast "Independent Americans."

Paul, glad you're here because I want to read a part of Hegseth's central letter to Kelly where he justifies this move, saying -- quote -- "Your conduct has had and continues to have a detrimental impact on military discipline and good order. It undermines trust in leadership, creates legal confusion, encourages insubordination."

So, does Kelly's behavior as it's described, does it justify this punishment?

PAUL RIECKHOFF, FOUNDER AND CEO OF INDEPENDENT VETERANS OF AMERICA, PODCAST HOST: No. This entire charade by Hegseth is ridiculous. It's outrageous. It's the most overtly partisan political thing I can remember a secretary defense doing in my lifetime. And it is dangerous because it's not just about Kelly.

Kelly -- let's talk about Kelly, right? He's an astronaut. He's a Navy combat veteran. He's a member of the Senate Armed Services Committee. OK? He's a person held in great esteem. He's not in the chain of command. He's retired. But there are two million other retirees in America. And if you can come after Senator Kelly, who's an astronaut, who's a nationally renowned person, then they can come after everybody.

And this is a very dangerous place for Pete Hegseth to go. It's so overtly political. We have no precedent. And it's making a mockery of our military judicial system. He's threatening to basically convene a kangaroo court. And I think it's a very, very bad place for our military, for our democracy, and for our entire country.

And our enemies are celebrating. I mean, Putin must love seeing our secretary of defense in a political war with a political enemy who's in the Senate, on the Armed Services Committee. This has our enemy celebrating.

COATES: Because then what's the message if I say you should not follow illegal orders, which they're already told not to do?

RIECKHOFF: Yes.

COATES: They know that.

RIECKHOFF: Right.

COATES: And I'm punished for saying that. Then what are you implying about following illegal orders? But the chilling effect is a strong one. But you mentioned military law. Do you think that military law will actually allow for this punishment?

RIECKHOFF: It shouldn't. I mean, they're going to have to convene a group of senior leaders who are more senior to Kelly than when he was in the military. They're supposed to be impartial.

COATES: That's their jury.

RIECKHOFF: Right. And there's no precedent for this. I mean, this has never happened before, definitely not since the modern all-volunteer military has been in place. There's no precedent for bringing in a sitting U.S. senator who used to be in the military and convening some kind of trial. It's really a military -- sorry, a political operation rather than a military one. And that's really what this is about.

Pete Hegseth isn't focused on our enemies like ISIS. He's not focused on Putin. He's not focused on domestic terrorism. He's focused on a political enemy, a member of the U.S. Senate who he should have no qualms with in this kind of a realm. He should be focused on other things and not waging a political war against an opponent who he disagrees with.

COATES: Well, one thing there's a focus on is Venezuela, obviously.

RIECKHOFF: Yes.

COATES: And you know the president on Saturday told reporters that he would not rule out the possibility of military involvement, saying -- quote -- "We're not afraid of boots on the ground." Now, you, of course, served in Iraq. You run veterans' advocacy organization as well. Are you concerned by those comments?

RIECKHOFF: Yes, I'm concerned by all of it. I mean, this is absolutely bonkers. I mean -- but it's not crazy. This has always been a part of a strategy by Trump to expand his power across the Western Hemisphere.

COATES: What's your distinction? You're saying bonkers, not crazy. You mean that it was all planned.

RIECKHOFF: I mean, this is a part of their extended plan, right? Twenty twenty-five was really about taking power in America. It looks like 2026 is about taking power in a Western Hemisphere. He said he might hit Colombia. He said he would go after Cuba. He's threatening action against Greenland. It looks like the entire Western Hemisphere is in play here.

And let's be clear, there have already been boots on the ground in Venezuela, roughly 200 by Hegseth's admission. And this is not supported by -- only about third of the American public even supports this, right? Most of the country doesn't want to see us in an extended war with Venezuela or see boots on the ground.

But it has already happened because what Trump is doing is all gas and no brakes. He's not asking for permission. He's throwing the middle finger up to Congress. He's throwing the middle finger up to everyone in the world, NATO, the U.N. and saying, I'm going to do whatever I want and no one can stop me. So, I think this might be just the beginning.

COATES: I worry about the strain on the military and what happens in other locations where they might be even more needed. Paul Rieckhoff, thank you.

RIECKHOFF: Thank you.

COATES: Up next, the internet's obsession with one very specific part of the Maduro story. You've seen it.

[23:55:00]

Right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COATES: Well, it's midnight here on the East Coast. Time to talk with our friend, Elex Michaelson, out on the West Coast. Elex, so good to see you.

Look, there has been so much conversation, lots of serious dynamics at play when it comes, obviously, to Maduro's capture, indictment, and arraignment. But that has never stopped the internet from interneting, OK? That Nike Tech Fleece sweat suit that he was wearing, it retails around $260. Google searches have surged for them since Saturday. And if you're if you're Nike, this is some free promotion dictator and all.

(LAUGHTER)

ELEX MICHAELSON, CNN ANCHOR AND CORRESPONDENT: Yes. But, apparently, this quarter-zip is more of the way to go. I researched this. I didn't know much that that particular sweat suit was apparently out and the quarter-zip is in. And so, a lot of the TikTok folks are saying he picked the wrong outfit. I don't know how much choice he had in all of this. They may have dressed him, you know, for him. I don't know. [00:00:00]

COATES: It's crazy. My son has this actual suit now. And I was told Nike zips out now the quarter-zip, but you got to have a match with it. That's apparently the thing that brings you to the next 2026 level.

MICHAELSON: Not a water bottle in hand that you're holding too closely?

(LAUGHTER)

Who knows?

COATES: You know what?

MICHAELSON: You know, the way his eyes and ears were covered, who knows if he even knew what he was wearing. So --

COATES: God. This -- I mean, the fact that the internet focused on this as opposed to larger issue tells you once again the internet is undefeated. And so are you, my friend. Have a great show.

MICHAELSON: Well, and my best guest and our first guest tonight is you. So, stay with us. Laura Coates and more as "The Story Is" starts right now.