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Laura Coates Live

ICE Under New Scrutiny Over Force, Surveillance, and Shock Gloves; Help is on the Way for USS Abraham Lincoln Sailors; Luigi Mangione to Appear in Federal Court. Aired 11p-12a ET

Aired August 13, 2026 - 23:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[23:00:00]

ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: He knows his stuff. Bravo, Elie. That's my mom's partner. And Noah --

MICHAEL MOYNIHAN, PODCAST CO-HOST, "THE FIFTH COLUMN": Those are the ones you read?

HONIG: They gamed me. Noah, somebody doesn't want to ever hear you saying sister soldier ever again. I think you handle it all right.

NOAH ROTHMAN, SENIOR WRITER, NATIONAL REVIEW: I agree. If I never have to again, I would.

HONIG: All right, everyone to our panel, thank you for all that. Everyone, thanks for being here. Thank you for watching "NewsNight." "Laura Coates Live" starts right now.

LAURA COATES, CNN HOST AND SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Tonight, shop gloves, surveillance, a gun in a woman's face. ICE faces new scrutiny as Trump wants to ramp up his immigration crackdown. Minnesota Lieutenant Governor and Senate candidate Peggy Flanagan is here to respond. Plus, help is on the way for sailors on the USS Abraham Lincoln after at least one service member went overboard. Now, Democrats want answers from Pete Hegseth. And the negotiations in Luigi Mangione's federal case that could result in a guilty plea as soon as tomorrow. That's tonight on "Laura Coates Live."

Well, my opening statement tonight, you can change the person in charge, you can switch up the tone, but if the tactics you're using keep raising the same questions, you ain't changing the story. Take DHS Secretary Markwayne Mullin back in March up for confirmation after Kristi Noem was shown the door. Well --

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARKWAYNE MULLIN, SECRETARY, UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY: My goal in six months is that we're not in the lead story every single day. My goal is for people to understand we're out there, we're protecting them, and we're working with them.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: OK, all right, it has only been about five months, but if Mullin wants to reassess those goals and wants DHS out of the headlines, he's got some work to do. Look at just the last three days. Tuesday, ICE plans to get electric shock gloves. Yesterday, an ICE agent points a gun at a Virginia woman. Today, DHS investigated left- leaning groups during the Minnesota immigration crackdown.

Now, I want to start with the electric shock gloves. That might talk of pulling out of the onion, right? (ph) Electric shock gloves? But it's a real story. And ICE is planning to drop up to $20 million to get them. Border czar Tom Holman says another tool in the tool belt.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TOM HOMAN, WHITE HOUSE BORDER CZAR: It's another device, you know, to help someone be compliant when they are not. You know, you just can't go from zero to a hundred, right? And the first thing you go for is lethal force.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: But another tool? Well, that might be a tough sell when the agency has faced scrutiny over how it uses the tools it already has. We all remember what we saw last winter.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: Months of aggressive ICE tactics like this. I was on the ground. Used against protesters and American citizens. And those concerns, they haven't gone away. Look at this. It shows the moments before an ICE agent points a gun at a woman's face in Virginia. She's an American citizen. She shouts insult at the officers from her car as they were taking people into custody. Shortly after, ICE SUVs boxed her in.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNKNOWN: You almost ran us over.

UNKNOWN: I didn't almost run you over.

UNKNOWN: You almost ran us over. Stop playing.

UNKNOWN: You're so full of shit.

UNKNOWN: Stop playing.

UNKNOWN: You are full of shit.

UNKNOWN: All right. You're not funny.

UNKNOWN: You're not funny.

UNKNOWN: I won't arrest you. Keep it up.

UNKNOWN: I'm a legal citizen. UNKNOWN: Keep it up. I don't care.

UNKNOWN: Oh, my goodness.

UNKNOWN: We have to lock you up.

UNKNOWN: OK. For what?

UNKNOWN: You're the one that tried to run us over.

UNKNOWN: Run you over? When? I got recording. I got dash cam. I got dash cam. That's a lie.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: She denies that she was trying to weaponize her vehicle or run over the agents, and the ICE claimed that she was doing so. Well, that may sound familiar.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: Remember, DHS said Renee Good weaponized her car before an ICE officer shot and killed her, which brings me right back to Minnesota. The New York Times is reporting that four days after Alex Pretti was killed, DHS opened an investigation in St. Paul. Now, not into the agents who shot them, but into left-leaning groups. And the investigation swept up people and organizations never accused of crimes.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: Look, all of this is happening as President Trump is pushing to ramp up deportations. And, as the public's view of ICE, it's deeply underwater. A recent poll shows six out of 10 voters disapprove of how the agency is doing its job.

[23:05:01]

So, again, if Mullin wants DHS to stay out of the headlines and if Homan wants to defend electric shock gloves as a way to deescalate, they've got a long way to go in convincing the American public how exactly this does that.

I want to bring in someone who knows the reality on the ground, Darius Reeves. He was a field office director for ICE. He served in the agency for two decades before retiring just last year. Darius, thank you for being here. I know it will be illuminating for everyone listening. I mean, looking back at everything that has happened over just the last year, do you think that giving ICE agents electric shock gloves, does that make sense?

DARIUS REEVES, FORMER FIELD OFFICE DIRECTOR, IMMIGRATION AND CUSTOMS ENFORCEMENT: Yes, I'm struggling with all of these, from a tactical street perspective. And I want to be clear, I'm not privy to these types of conversations anymore. From a tactical perspective, I would have questions. How are they donned? How are they employed? When are they employed? Do you have other mechanisms at your disposal? It just seems -- and how do you go from, and I'm just -- I'm thinking here, how do you go from non-lethal with those gloves on to lethal? Are the officers wearing them throughout the day or are you, depending upon the situation, you're putting the gloves on, taking the gloves off?

I -- It's just -- and once again, you know, there is a division within ICE, firearms and tactical programs. These guys and girls, they are to test weapons, they test new equipment like hours and hours and days and days and days of testing.

COATES: OK.

REEVES: And then employ them in concert with adequate training.

COATES: Well, let's talk about that training, Darius. I think that's the issue many people have. I mean, first of all, you're telling me that gloves are being used. I'm thinking hand to hand. You're that close to somebody. So, the de-escalation training that one would normally have from law enforcement, it's impacted and might accelerate the feelings of imminent threat.

REEVES: Yes.

COATES: So, you're already close. There's already de-escalation available. And we know that there are things like tasers, right, that could be used. We're told that these gloves would leave no burns or contact marks. But how do you hold an agent accountable for using one of these if there's no visible evidence that they even used force? It is really person said against they said.

REEVES: Yes. I'm tracking, and you get it. So, I'm going to be very supportive of what you just said.

COATES: But why don't they get it then? It just seems like if it's obvious to me, I've never been an agent and you've got decades of experience, you would think even if you meet in the middle, Homan and company would see the reality. So, what am I missing?

REEVES: Well, when you listen -- when you listen to Homan earlier, I listened to his speech earlier, he's on offense (ph), OK? Clearly. And, you know, he kind of leaned towards saying they may be more useful in a detention setting.

COATES: OK.

REEVES: He did say that. I did very well pick up on that. He was saying, you know, the jury is out on this. But midterms are coming. There might be a change in how this administration looks and operates. There is money that needs to get spent. So, what I would concentrate on is how did this bidding process go. Who is this company? Was there an adequate bidding process? Because at least three, and you go with the lowest bidder.

And another thing that I would be as a field office director, I would want the data for other law enforcement departments that are actually utilizing these gloves. Is it Chicago P.D.? Is it LAPD? Is it Houston P.D.? Who are using? Because, once again, ICE is not community police.

COATES: Right.

REEVES: We never have been. We never will be. We are not a radio call. We're not responding throughout the day, throughout the evening, to calls for service.

[23:09:57]

So, these gloves, I would believe, would be more useful for Baltimore Police Department where I'm at, where I presently reside, New York where I presently reside, Buffalo, New York where I presently reside, those departments. And then I would want to see how they're utilizing them --

COATES: OK.

REEVES: -- the situations, and how that goes. But for ICE, specific to what we do, targeted enforcement, it seems to be a lot.

COATES: Darius Reeves --

REEVES: Now, in a detention setting, I totally get it.

COATES: Well, that's interesting, to hear your perspective. It's not a no, but it's a where and when and if. That's an important contemplation. I'm glad you were here to share. Thank you so much.

With me now, Democratic lieutenant governor of Minnesota, Peggy Flanagan. She just won Minnesota's Democratic Senate primary. Lieutenant governor, welcome back to the program. I know, I need to tell you, this has been quite a series of weeks, years for Minnesota. I mean, it was the epicenter of the ICE raids just earlier this year. And now, we're learning that DHS is moving to equip agents with up to $20 million worth of electric shock gloves designed to try to gain compliance. I see you shaking your head already. What is your reaction?

LT. GOV. PEGGY FLANAGAN (D-MN): I mean, it's outrageous. This agency is completely out of control. And I cannot believe we're having conversations about, you know, giving them an additional tool of violence and spending millions of dollars on, you know, this entity that already has, what, $240 billion? And on the ground in Minnesota, they terrorized our communities. The trauma that our young people are going to carry for a long time, I think about that every day. And the killing of Rene Good and Alex Pretti, it's outrageous.

We have to rip ICE apart. And, you know, this is essentially a private police force for Donald Trump that is simply being used to intimidate communities. We have to rip it apart. And, of course, we need a strong -- you know, we need a strong immigration system.

COATES: So, what does rip it apart mean?

FLANAGAN: I mean, that means that, you know, we don't continue to give resources to this agency that has killed people with impunity. COATES: You know, what I'm hearing from law enforcement as well, and I've been on the ground, I was there in Minnesota in the aftermath of those deaths, and just thinking about these gloves being inconsistent with de-escalation techniques that we expect of law enforcement to use, particularly when somebody is in close proximity enough to have to use one's hands, I do wonder about the Fourth Amendment. But that's just me thinking about the Constitution. So, forgive me.

"The New York Times" also reports the DHS quietly surveilled left- leaning groups during the crackdown, and the investigation helped build the case against 15 people accused of interfering with law enforcement agents. But it also swept up people and organizations never accused of a crime. Meanwhile, the investigations into the deaths of the people that you've just named, Renee Good, Alex Pretti, they remain unresolved. Does that sound like the right set of priorities to you?

FLANAGAN: It is so far from the right set of priorities. You know, four days after Alex Pretti was killed, this investigation began. I think they're calling it, what? Operation Puppet Master, which is just -- you know, the name is chilling in itself. But, you know, the killings of Renee Good and Alex Pretti need to be investigated. And their priority was not finding out what happened to these two individuals who lost their lives, but their priority was, you know, to go after these groups who are simply engaging in -- you know, expressing their First Amendment rights.

This is chilling. And we should all be incredibly concerned, again, that Donald Trump's ICE, the DOJ that has now been empowered to just simply go after citizens and organizations who disagree with the president, that's authoritarianism. And we all have to, like, open our eyes to what is happening right in front of us. And as you mentioned, the Constitution.

[23:14:55]

It seems as though, you know, this administration is unfamiliar with the document that is supposed to be, you know, foundational for our democracy. We have to speak out. And I am -- it is chilling. And it's, frankly, one of the reasons why I am running, to push back and hold these folks accountable.

COATES: Let's turn to your race for Senate because your opponent, Michele Tafoya, says there is one particular issue that you aren't talking about. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MICHELE TAFOYA, MINNESOTA SENATORIAL CANDIDATE: She has not spoken up about fraud at all. And it has been happening under her watch for these last many, many years. We're talking $9 billion of money that went out of taxpayers' pockets, skipped over the people they were supposed to go to and help, and right into the pockets of fraudsters.

(END VIDEO CLIP) COATES: Let's talk about it because you said this morning that more should have been done sooner. You've been a lieutenant governor throughout this. Why weren't you able to act sooner?

FLANAGAN: Well, I would say this. I think that, you know, fraud of any kind is completely unacceptable. I know that Minnesotans are angry. I am angry, too. And as someone who has run a nonprofit organization that has served children and families, the very idea that people would steal these taxpayer dollars from, you know, some of the most vulnerable people in our state is horrific.

You know, I think it's important, though, to also name that there is progress that has been made here. More needs to be done, absolutely. But there's an independent office of inspector general that has been stood up. There are additional resources that are going to the attorney general to tackle Medicaid fraud. And, you know, frankly, I am encouraged that Amy Klobuchar will absolutely be our next governor. She's a prosecutor and is going to, you know, continue to ensure that this can't happen.

But I also want to, you know, talk about what Michele Tafoya did not mention there, which is the fact that, you know, Republicans are running against every Democrat on fraud because they literally want to distract from the grift and the complete failure of Donald Trump.

COATES: I'd be remiss if I didn't talk about the history-making moment that this is in Minnesota. I mean, Tuesday night, Minnesota voters, they did something we've actually never seen before in this country, lieutenant governor, and that is a major party ballot for governor, U.S. Senate, where every single nominee is a woman. What does this milestone mean to you?

FLANAGAN: I mean, I think it's about time. But what I would also say is, you know, something that's unique is that three of the four women are indigenous or women of color. That also matters. And simply because I think that democracy functions best when it accurately reflects the community it seeks to represent. So, you know, we certainly have big differences in our approach to policy issues.

It's about time. It is overdue. I had Geraldine Ferraro growing up and, you know, my daughter has a whole host of women elected leaders that she can look to. I think that progress is important, and we're not going to go backwards.

COATES: Lieutenant Governor Peggy Flanagan, thank you.

FLANAGAN: Thank you.

COATES: Up next, how did the Pentagon allow a deployment to go on so long that a sailor went overboard? Democrats tonight demanding answers as we learn just how dire the conditions reportedly are. Former congressman and veteran, Adam Kinzinger, is here with me in studio on that and more.

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[23:20:00]

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COATES: Finally, relief is on the way for thousands of our men and women on board the USS Abraham Lincoln in the Persian Gulf. The Navy is sending the USS George Washington to swap out the USS Lincoln amid reports of shortages of food and supplies and a mental health crisis on board. This ship has been deployed for 250 days, including to support the Iran war.

As CNN has confirmed, at least one sailor went overboard this month. That sailor was rescued and was not hurt. Earlier this week, Stars and Stripes and the Navy Times reported other sailors tried to jump overboard but were stopped.

Democrats wrote a letter to Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth expressing -- quote -- "serious concern about what's happening on the Lincoln." Hegseth acknowledges that there are issues, but he says the problems have been -- quote -- "misrepresented."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PETE HEGSETH, UNITED STATES SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: Listen, we make sure that every ship, every crew, every captain has everything we can provide them at every single moment. Some deployments are longer than others. And I have more respect and gratitude for those sailors than anybody.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: I want to bring in CNN's new political commentator, former congressman and Air Force veteran, Adam Kinzinger. Congressman, I mean, how could this happen and what happens next?

ADAM KINZINGER, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, FORMER ILLINOIS REPRESENTATIVE, AIR FORCE VETERAN: So, this happens because we are in a war that was never expected to last this long, that has turned into from kinetic action into a naval blockade. I mean, I guarantee you, at the beginning of this, there was never an expectation that we would be here in August having basically a never-ending naval blockade.

And so, there wasn't relief necessarily planned. It seems like -- I don't know if the relief that's coming now was because of this pressure or if it was naturally coming, but 250 days is a long time. And I think the tough thing about it is it's not like this is a victory on the other end of this, right?

[23:24:59]

This is -- we're sitting here in kind of this undefined situation. Clearly, we've used a lot of our interceptors, our high-quality missiles, and we don't see a win coming.

And so, I can tell you, as a guy that has been deployed, and my deployments were like three months, I was an Air Force pilot, like very short deployments, even when mine one time got extended a week because the rotator to take us out didn't come in time, it was like it's demoralizing. And I was single. Some of these sailors are married or they have kids. Mom and dad may be sick or old. And it just is a really damaging thing. But, look, they're absolutely heroes for doing what they do, of course, but they shouldn't be out there 250 days.

COATES: You know, the way you describe it, I spoke to Congressman Seth Moulton just last night who emphasized the military can do extraordinary things if they can.

KINZINGER: Yes.

COATES: But morale has got to be impacted by the never-ending nature of this. And although the president is the commander-in-chief, do you expect this to impact if they don't have buy-in or know why they're fighting?

KINZINGER: Yes, that's extremely important. I mean, I can tell you, again, when I was deployed, we knew what the mission was. People may agree or disagree with the Iraq war when I was there --

COATES: Yes.

KINZINGER: -- but we knew what the mission was. We were going after Al-Qaeda in Iraq. We saw results of that. I don't think the mission has been defined.

And the commander-in-chief not only hasn't defined the mission, we've supposedly already won this. How many times? You know, we've already won 50 times so far. And then he claims that the strait is open. So, they do watch the news. They do care.

When you're doing this mission, you care about what the implications are, and all of that has an impact. But still, the bottom line is you have kids. Imagine being away from them for 250 days. And, again, it's not even the length of the deployment, it's the fact that it keeps getting extended. That's where the real kind of gut punch comes from.

COATES: Some have never had not touched shore in that amount of time.

KINZINGER: Right.

COATES: There's no port trips. There are no stops. There's no break in any of this. And there is the rationing we heard from Pam Brown in her reporting, rationing of supplies and otherwise. And a lot of these people are very young as well.

I mean, Hegseth, though, said that this was completely misrepresented. I mean, how will that land with sailors who are looking left to right and saying what part of this might be misrepresented, secretary?

KINZINGER: It doesn't land well. And this is the problem. So, this administration is so eager to downplay the failures of this war, that they think admitting that the ship being out there too long is a failure, that they're downplaying it and saying it's misrepresented.

So, if you're a sailor, you're like, they're not paying attention to our concerns or they don't care about our concerns or they're more eager to protect the president's ego in this than anything else. I mean, they are with 5,000 of their closest friends on something the size of a couple of football fields without even having port call. That's fatiguing.

And to have the secretary of defense say that, well, you know, this is misrepresented, yeah, it's a problem but it's misrepresented, it's not. This is very real.

And I think if the administration would say, look, yes, we are in a position we didn't expect to be in, we appreciate the hard work of the sailors, we're trying to get relief out there, I don't know if we'd even be talking about this right now.

COATES: You know, Politico is reporting that Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth, he has kept Democrats out of classified briefings --

KINZINGER: Yes.

COATES: -- on the defense budget, which is a very important idea. Senator Thom Tillis said -- quote -- "He calls himself the secretary of war, but ironically, he doesn't want to go to war and win the argument with nearly half the members of the Senate. You got to engage." What would be the reason not to when you're talking about Democrats who are asking questions about their own powerful purse?

KINZINGER: I mean, the only thing I can imagine is because you were a -- you've never served in politics and you think everything is a political event, right? And when it comes -- this is what I loved about Congress when I was on the Foreign Affairs Committee, is it was bipartisan. We literally had said politics ends at the shore.

You know, I went -- I would go on trips when Barack Obama was president, and I would refuse to say a negative word about him when I was in a different country because we had to show this unified front. That has changed under this administration. And it is insane politics to not brief Democrats because you are going to need Democratic votes if you want to get this done.

The only thing I can figure is either he doesn't know how politics works, they don't want to get it done or it's going to make Donald Trump mad if he talks to a Democrat. But they're going to have a very different setup after November, so they're going to have to get used to it.

COATES: And these Democrats are not muzzled. Their constituents know.

KINZINGER: Right.

COATES: And that includes Republicans as well. So, congressmen, stand by. I want to hear more. Still ahead, why does he need this to happen so badly? The new plan to put Trump's name back on the Kennedy Center as we learned tonight that Trump himself was reportedly on the call as the move was being considered.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) [23:30:00]

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COATES: Tonight, President Trump is stress testing another judicial ruling. This one has very little to do with you or me. It has everything to do with Trump's name going on the Kennedy Center.

Remember when a judge told Trump to take down his name from the front of the building? It was, although a tarp still covers so I can't actually check for myself. But now, the board has voted to add an inscription below the Kennedy Center sign. Apparently, it's going to read, "restored and renovated by President Donald J. Trump." That's because the board, which was handpicked by Trump, is going to move forward with the renovations, closing the cultural center for two years.

Adam Kinzinger is back with me and also Democratic strategist Sawyer Hackett joins us as well.

[23:34:58]

Let me begin with you, Sawyer, because PolitiFact analyzed every single public event and speech from Trump for this year, by the way. They found that he mentioned construction projects like the Kennedy Center 45,000 times. That is second only to the Iran war. I mean, I know he's a builder, but why the obsession over these projects?

SAWYER HACKETT, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST, CONTENT CREATOR: Yes, he wants to be known as a builder. Unfortunately, I don't think that's what his reputation is going to be when he leaves office. You know, it's not just that he's spending all of his time focused on these kind of vanity projects, it's that he's spending his time focused on these vanity projects while everything else is crumbling around him. I mean, of course, you know, there's the economy. A lot of that is based on the economy. Gas prices above $4. You know, the job market is slowing.

But I think also there's kind of total tonnage of things going on in the country right now that are affecting people that weren't major issues that they were dealing with before, salmonella, you know, explosive diarrhea, you know, wildfires, measles, you know, this kind of like flood of ICE agents on the streets and flock cameras being erected in data centers.

It's this kind of, like, anxiety that people are feeling about the way, you know, the country is going right now. And his focus on that, while they're concerned about those kinds of everyday concerns, I think is really enraging voters.

COATES: Not just focus. I mean, we all have the same 24-hour window, right? Our working hours are going to be limited in some capacity because you've got to sleep, you've got to do the things you've got to do. But he had time, according to Rhode Island Senator Sheldon Whitehouse, to dial in today to the Kennedy Center's board's virtual meeting on this issue. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. SHELDON WHITEHOUSE (D), RHODE ISLAND: He came on. He said he had been listening. He gave the speech for several minutes, and then he hung up. His vote and his chief of staff Susie Wiles's vote were texted in on these things. He did not vote in person.

LAWRENCE O'DONNELL, MS NOW HOST: UNKNOWN: But Donald Trump did vote for his name to go onto the building and for the plaza around it to be called the Donald Trump Plaza.

WHITEHOUSE: Correct.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COATES: He's got time for this? I mean, you've got naval officers and shipmen who are deployed for 250 days about the war in Iran, and he has called in about his name on the Kennedy Center?

KINZINGER: Listen, honest to God, Laura, if you told me you put my name on the Kennedy Center, I wouldn't care. If you're like, hey, by the way, they just made it the Kinzinger Kennedy Center, I'd be like, that's kind of stupid, take it down. He's obsessed with it.

And the thing that's amazing about this is like this movement of alpha males that like, you know, run in the woods and do all their stuff, and they don't follow anybody, and they're their own, they follow a guy that is obsessed with his name on the Kennedy Center, painting stuff gold around town, and blaming a reflective pool, claiming that somebody walked along it with a razor and cut it, which is bananas.

Meanwhile, the Iran war is not going very well. We're out of interceptors. Ukraine is getting hit every day by Russia. It's insane. And the more insane thing is not that the president is doing this, it's that everybody around him is shaking their head yes and acting like this is totally normal, and were crazy for being obsessed with -- you know, for him being obsessed about this.

COATES: Well, let me be shaking my head then in any direction on that issue. But you also have -- this is cutting both ways. There's criticism about him being obsessed about this. Now, there's criticism from Democrats as well about them focusing on his obsession about this. And you got to follow that, people.

Congressman Ted Lieu proposes that Democrats take down Trump's name and that he is thinking that this could be a -- quote -- "bright line for presidential candidates in 2028." Is that the right direction?

HACKETT: I think it's -- I think it is an important point to make because I think there does have to be a scrubbing of his name from these buildings, from these monuments, because it sends a message that future presidents that try to do this, that try and break the law to put their name on a whole bunch of vanity projects, will have to think twice about it.

I mean, here's my hot take about this, Laura. I don't really care that his name is on the Kennedy Center because it will be scraped off the second he leaves office. But personal opinions don't matter here. It's the John F. Kennedy Center for Performing Arts. This is a memorial building that Congress put, you know, that Congress erected in memorial of John F. Kennedy. And this is a president who, you know, inspired a nation to go to the moon, who led on civil rights and equal pay. And he shouldn't have to share memorial space with a man who is considered best friends with one of the most notorious child sex traffickers in history.

COATES: There's that take. Then there's the idea, though, that people are critical of Republicans in Congress for ceding this power and not caring enough about it.

[23:40:01]

KINZINGER: That's a good point. And look, I actually agree with Sawyer, too. There has to be accountability because it's sending a message to the next president of the United States that thinks they can get away with it. But the blame here is not with Trump. I mean, it is, but the blame is with Congress for failing to enforce its own power.

COATES: Why won't they, though?

KINZINGER: Because they're scared to death. I've lived in this world. Because to even say a word against Donald Trump -- look at Bill Cassidy, who knew that his vote for RFK Jr. and his recent vote for the new attorney general was wrong. He was almost trembling when he was reading, but he couldn't say no to it because there is a cost. And even when you're out of the Senate and Congress and you want to lobby, there's a cost if you turn against the president. This is that moment we're in.

And so, Congress, the new Congress will take its power back. That's going to be an interesting challenge because, again, the founders of the United States knew a guy like Donald Trump would come along. That's not a surprise. They never expected Congress to so willingly give up its power.

COATES: Or the judiciary, by the way, for that same reason. Congressman and Sawyer, thank you both so much. Up next, Luigi Mangione just hours away from potentially pleading guilty in his federal case. We're going to break down the legal consequence if he does. Plus, they've raised more than a million dollars for his defense. What will Mangione's fan club think if he cuts a deal? We'll ask the man who organized the fund, next.

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[23:45:00]

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COATES: Just hours from now, Luigi Mangione is set to appear in court. Sources say he could plead guilty to federal charges in the killing of UnitedHealthcare CEO Brian Thompson. Sources have cautioned that the plea negotiations are fluid and nothing is final until it's announced in court.

This potential plea would be for his federal prosecution, where Mangione faces up to life in prison on two stalking charges. That is separate from the New York state case where he has been charged with second-degree murder. That trial is currently set for early September. Mangione has pleaded not guilty in both the cases. But a plea in the federal case could mean his New York state trial goes away altogether. Why? Because of New York's double jeopardy law.

Joining me now to discuss all of this is criminal defense attorney Arthur Aidala. He knows the New York system better than anyone. And that's not in question at all. Arthur, let's talk about this because for a lot of people, they're wondering the impact of the federal plea potentially on a state trial. They know about double jeopardy. But they're also wondering how do you go from last week, his lawyers asking to have his state trial televised, to now a discussion about a possible plea? What would be the incentive for him to plead guilty to the federal charges?

ARTHUR AIDALA, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, first of all, good evening, Laura. Look, they're up against it. I know the defense team very well. They're top-quality lawyers who have been working very, very hard on this.

But, first of all, they assigned two different judges, one in the state court, one in the federal court. Neither judge is known as being a defense-friendly judge. Not that it's going to be easy to find any defense-friendly judge in a case of this magnitude, but the idea, I think, is if he pleads guilty to a federal case, then they go in front of the state court. Now, he's on the mercy of that judge, who is a former federal prosecutor, I believe, for a dozen years. Then he goes to the state court judge, Judge Carro, and says, look, this is double jeopardy.

Basically, it's the same exact act. And he's being charged in two different jurisdictions. And that's just not right. That's just not the way our system is set up. So, New York state judge, now that he has pled guilty to the federal crime, please dismiss this case and just let the federal court deal with it. It's in the realm of possibilities, it's not such a long shot, but it's not an easy question.

In my opinion, it's really going to be up to Judge Carro's discretion. Judge Carro follows in the footsteps of his father, who was also Judge Carro. Again, he's a very serious man. Not a lot of jokes going on in his courtroom. You know, he's a pretty tough judge on defendants. So, I don't know how many options the defense team really has at this point.

COATES: Well, you know, that's the question, the discretion of the judge. I mean, people have the impression that, OK, if I plead guilty, it's done, and then the judges are at the mercy of another judge. It would still have to be litigated to figure out whether the New York double jeopardy law, about it being the same act, really would be the case here. I'm assuming prosecutors at the state level would still try to get some semblance of justice for their own particular charges they want to bring.

And there were tensions between federal and state prosecutors from the very beginning in terms of timing, who was going to go first, who was in control. How do you think the state prosecutors feel right now that the feds may be trying to cut this deal?

AIDALA: I think -- look, Laura, you've seen the video, you know the facts. This is a murder case. This is a straight-up execution murder case.

[23:50:00]

And in the whole country, those are almost always handled by the local prosecutor.

COATES: Right.

AIDALA: That's the way things are set up. This federal thing of stalking through interstate commerce, through interstate mains, which is like cellphones, and here it's about Luigi going from Georgia up to New York and following Brian to kill him, you know, yhat's how they're kind of shoehorning him in.

Usually, as you know, Laura, it only winds up in federal court when there's some real hole in the federal, in the state case, and the states can't really prosecute him. But here, you've got the video, the judge is letting in the backpack, the judge is letting in the journal, the judge is letting in the gun. You know, it's a pretty clean state case.

So, I don't know why the feds were involved, except the federal prosecutor who initially got involved was very much a publicity- seeking prosecutor. And, you know, I think that may have played a role in this because, otherwise, it's a straight-up murder case that should be prosecuted by the Manhattan D.A.'s office.

COATES: There's high interest. Everyone is tuning in. And tomorrow, we don't know what's going to happen, but the possibility is there of a plea and then an impact on the state case. Arthur Aidala, thank you so much.

AIDALA: Thank you, Laura. It's always a pleasure to be on with you.

COATES: You know, Luigi Mangione's fans, we'll call them, have raised more than $1.5 million for him on GiveSendGo. And one supporter today gave $100 and wrote, "All these people voting for Democrat socialists have your back. Truth be told you ignited the DSA movement in New York. Don't give up now."

Joining me now is Sam Beard, spokesperson for the group that helped organize the GiveSendGo fundraiser for Luigi Mangione. Sam, welcome back to the show. I mean, you heard that one donor urged Mangione not to give up. I'm wondering, how will you and his other fans feel if he does give up and pleads guilty?

SAM BEARD, SPOKESPERSON, DECEMBER 4TH LEGAL COMMITTEE: Thanks for having me back on. You know, it really doesn't surprise me that the federal government would want to strike a deal in an effort to put this whole rather destabilizing chapter of the American story behind them.

Luigi Mangione, if he did do what they say that he did through the process, did what can usually only be accomplished by the most powerful mass social movements, and that is, of course, he revealed that a system which provides legal economic infrastructure for a parasitic, morally decrepit, outright heinous industry like the for- profit health insurance racket is an illegitimate system, the feds can't have this go on any longer and risk further activating that collective realization.

COATES: Well --

BEARD: I think if Luigi thinks that this is best, we don't know what's going to happen tomorrow, I think we should support him.

COATES: The way you speak about Luigi Mangione and your opinion of the health care industry quite clearly suggests that you look favorably if he in fact did what he is accused of doing on his actions. Do you think it's appropriate to kill a representative of a health care industry because you take issue with the health care industry?

BEARD: That's obviously an important question, and I am grateful for you asking for it. But I can't help but think it's the wrong question or at least it's not that interesting. I mean, I think the part that most of us --

COATES: No, I think it's interesting. I'd like to hear your answer to it because you almost described him as a hero. I understand your views on the health care industry, and certainly people take a lot of issues with it. You've called it parasitic and beyond. I think a lot of people do take issue with the health care industry. But my question, which is particularly compelling and interesting, is whether you think it's appropriate to kill somebody who represents that industry because you take issue with the actual industry itself.

BEARD: It seems like millions of people around the globe proclaimed loudly in unison that they felt that tyrannicide or the killing of a tyrant was justified. Our jobs as storytellers is to ask why did they feel that way. And they seemed to feel like the killing itself was not the crime in question. In fact, there was a larger, a much, much larger crime scene in question, one that spans an entire industry that's publicly traded on the New York stock exchange.

COATES: I'll be curious to see if jurors, if this case does go to trial, face that same presentation of persuasion from the defense and, of course, the prosecution would say, the crime that we're prosecuting is the one that involved the murder of an individual. And, of course, Luigi Mangione is presumed innocent. Sam Beard, thank you.

BEARD: Thank you.

COATES: A quick programming note, we're covering the Lindsay Clancy murder trial tomorrow on CNN All Access. Our coverage begins at 8:45 a.m. Eastern.

[23:55:01]

Hey, thank you all for watching. "The Story Is" is next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BRIAN ABEL, CNN ANCHOR AND CORRESPONDENT: I'm Brian Abel in Washington, in today for Elex Michaelson. The story is in the Arabian Sea where thousands of U.S. sailors have set more than 250 days on board an aircraft carrier making it now the longest deployment ever at sea, and lawmakers want to know why.