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Lou Dobbs Tonight

Search for Saddam Continues; Search for bin Laden Intensifies; NASA Wants to End Hubble Program

Aired July 30, 2003 - 18:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


LOU DOBBS, HOST: Tonight, the search for Saddam. Washington calls him a piece of trash. Osama bin Laden remembered. The hunt for bin Laden intensifies.
The most important telescope in the history of man. NASA wants to end the Hubble space telescope. Two renowned astronomers face off tonight.

And a year after Sarbanes-Oxley, are we winning the war against corporate corruption? Senator Paul Sarbanes is our guest.

Good evening. President Bush today said he takes personal responsibility for everything he said in his State of the Union address about Iraq. The President also strongly defended his national security adviser, Condoleezza Rice.

At issue, faulty intelligence that was expressed in the State of the Union speech. The President's comments came in his first news conference held since march. Senior White House correspondent John King joins me now. John?

JOHN KING, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: And, Lou, that news conference ran about 52 minutes in the Rose Garden. The president called on 17 reporters. That debate over the now discredited claim that Iraq was trying to buy nuclear materials in Africa, one of the many issues addressed by the President. You'll remember his national security adviser, Dr. Rice, initially said it was the CIA's fault that that ended up in the State of the Union. Later the White House had to acknowledge the CIA did warn the White House that the intelligence was dubious at best.

Mr. Bush today saying Condi Rice, in his view, is an honest person and that the American people are lucky to have her service. The president also said if you want to blame someone for the fact that that line ended up in his speech, blame him. But the president vigorously supported the overall case for going to war.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I take personal responsibility for everything I say. Of course. Absolutely. I also take responsibility for making decisions on war and peace. And I analyzed a thorough body of intelligence -- good, solid, sound intelligence -- that led me to come to the conclusion that it was necessary to remove Saddam Hussein from power. (END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: The president also defended the administration's political plan and reconstruction plan for post-war Iraq. He said his critics simply need to be patient, or as the president put it, he never expected Thomas Jefferson to pop up in Iraq within the first 90 days since hostilities ended.

Mr. Bush also took several questions on the economy. He acknowledged that his big tax cuts passed in 2001, to follow up since then, are contributing to growing budget deficits, but the president says those tax cuts were the right call for an ailing economy.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BUSH: I made the decision to address the recession by a tax cut. And so, part of the deficit, no question, was caused by taxes, about 25 percent of the deficit. The other 75 -- 50 percent caused by lack of revenues and 25 percent caused by additional spending on the war on terror.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: Despite mounting pressure from Congress, the president holding firm and saying he will not release those classified documents about possible Saudi connections to the 9/11 hijackers, and the president brushing off a question about how could he raise $170 million, perhaps even more, for his political campaign for the presidential primaries next year when he has no Republican opposition? Asked how he could spend all that money, the president smiled, Lou, and said, "Just watch."

DOBBS: John King, senior White House correspondent. Thank you very much.

Well, Secretary of State Colin Powell today said Saddam Hussein is a piece of trash waiting to be picked up.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

COLIN POWELL, SECRETARY OF STATE: Slowly but surely the infrastructure is being put back in place, surely -- slowly but surely, Ambassador Bremer and his team are successfully starting up economic activity, and a political process is under way. And the international community is coming in all ways to support this effort. And that's the good news. And Saddam Hussein is no longer bad news. He's a piece of trash waiting to be collected.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

DOBBS: The secretary of state also made comments about a new U. N. Resolution on Iraq. The United States was willing to go it alone when it came to military action against Saddam Hussein. But in a major reversal, the United States now wants the United Nations' help in rebuilding Iraq. Kitty Pilgrim reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KITTY PILGRIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): Last January, before the war, the Bush administration was accused of trying to go it alone against Iraq. A streak of geopolitical independence was clearly showing.

POWELL: When we feel strongly about something, we will lead. We will act even if others are not prepared to join us.

PILGRIM: And again at the State of the Union speech a few days later.

BUSH: We're asking them to join us. And many are doing so. Yet the course of this nation does not depend on the decisions of others.

PILGRIM: Now, with the Iraq war declared over, there is the enormous job of patrolling Iraq, as well as rebuilding it. The price tag, nearly $4 billion a month.

U.N. Resolution 1483 gave the United States and Britain clear power to run Iraq. But now administration officials are considering whether or not to recommend a new U. N. resolution to induce other countries to get involved.

Secretary of State Powell indicated a sea change this month after meeting with German Foreign Minister Joschka Fischer. mentioning a new U. N. resolution.

Other administration officials have signaled a change in tone also.

PAUL WOLFOWITZ, DEPUTY DEFENSE SECRETARY: We would certainly welcome any resolution that would make it easier for countries to contribute peacekeeping troops. Some have said that it would make it easier for them.

PILGRIM: Wednesday World Bank President James Wolfensohn was in Iraq assessing reconstruction needs with U. N. special representative Sergio Vieira de Mello. Under the current resolution, the U. N. has a limited role, but that could potentially be broadened. There are still no illusions about the U. N. and its glacial speed and no desire to undercut the authority of American administrators there.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Speed is of the essence here, and the U. N. isn't always speedy. That is why Ambassador Bremer is very anxious to make sure that he preserves his authorities to move the process forward as rapidly as possible.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PILGRIM: In the end, Secretary of State Powell today said he had not made any recommendation yet to President Bush about when or how a U.N. resolution would be ultimately crafted -- Lou.

DOBBS: But the decision appears to have been made to seek one.

PILGRIM: They're sure talking about it a lot.

DOBBS: What's the point of one now?

PILGRIM: Well, I guess that a lot of countries like France, Germany, India have signaled that they won't really participate unless there's a broader role for the U. N. And so, I guess if we want them on board, it seems that we'll have to play that game one more time.

DOBBS: Kitty, thank you very much. Kitty Pilgrim.

Well, the chairman of the joint chiefs of staff, General Richard Myers, today said only remnants of the Taliban remain in Afghanistan. Senior Pentagon correspondent Jamie McIntyre is traveling with the general and has this exclusive record from Gardiz, Afghanistan.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN SENIOR PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT (voice over): I talked with General Myers as the U. S. joint chiefs chairman was wrapping up his tour of Iraq and Afghanistan. His assessment was upbeat.

GENERAL RICHARD MYERS, JOINT CHIEFS CHAIRMAN: And I just wanted to get, you know, a little more hands on, a little more firsthand look at how they did their job, to tell them thank you.

MCINTYRE: Myers was briefed at a remote outpost near Gardiz, one of four locations in Afghanistan where the U. S. Military has established headquarters for reconstruction teams.

MYERS: Here we have a provincial reconstruction team working with the local populace out to -- around here to several hundred kilometers and bringing hope to those families and to those children.

MCINTYRE: Myers disputes critics who say the war in Iraq is diverting U. S. focus from the war against terrorism. In fact, he says, intelligence gathered in Iraq is helping in the hunt for Al Qaeda.

A lot of focus now on Saddam Hussein, but we haven't heard much about Osama bin Laden. Any prospect of getting Osama bin Laden anytime soon?

MYERS: Well, the question is is he alive or dead? I think it's still a pertinent question. Those that think he's alive think he's here in the -- in the ungoverned areas between Afghanistan and Pakistan. We have people that work very hard to find the senior Al Qaeda leadership, of which he is obviously the most senior.

MCINTYRE: Despite recent attacks against U. S. troops in Afghanistan and anticipated resurgence of the Taliban in the Spring never materialized, Myers says.

MYERS: There are remnants, but they're very, very -- they're onesies and twosies. There are not large numbers of these people that have been effective at all. MCINTYRE: And nation building, once a dirty word in the Pentagon's lexicon, now comes with the territory.

MYERS: The last thing you want to have happen in Afghanistan, or for that matter in Iraq, but here in Afghanistan because that's where we are, is to have this go back to a place where terrorists can gather, they can plan, they can train, and do those sorts of things.

MCINTYRE (on camera): While Iraq and Afghanistan present different challenges, in both cases the U. S. Military faces a mammoth task getting the countries back on their feet. One thing that's clear from General Myers' brief inspection tour -- U. S. troops won't be leaving either place anytime soon.

Jamie McIntyre, CNN, Gardiz, Afghanistan.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

DOBBS: Coming up, rising unemployment and stagnant salaries, the hallmarks of the job market these days. Is this a recovery? Bill Tucker will report on workers' big question, where's my raise?

And they're charged with protecting this nation. But they can't even pay their personal bills. Lisa Sylvester reports from Washington on the underpaid FBI.

And the first anniversary of sweeping corporate crime legislation. Senator Paul Sarbanes is one of the sponsors of the Sarbanes-Oxley law. He joins us. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: In the face of criticism, the government has decided not to cut the size of the air marshal program. There were reports the program would be cut because of budget problems, but Homeland Security Director Tom Ridge today refuted those reports.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TOM RIDGE, HOMELAND SECURITY SECRETARY: America should know that every air marshal that we have is being deployed, and additional resources are being directed to that very critical mission. America should also know, and I suggest they probably share this point of view, that after flight 93, it is doubtful that any group of passengers would let any would-be hijacker take over their plane.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

DOBBS: A bigger budget has not helped the men and women of the FBI, many of whom earn so little they struggle to pay their bills. This is not only a personal crisis for them, but a threat to our national security. Lisa Sylvester reports from Washington.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

LISA SYLVESTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): FBI special agent Lisa Rich takes home $2,800 a month, not much considering she works in New York City, where the cost of living is more than twice the national average.

LISA RICH, FBI SPECIAL AGENT: It's kind of hard when you have to look and watch every dime that you make and difficult knowing that when all is said and done at the end of the day, you're just not going to have enough money.

SYLVESTER: Rich took a $15,000 pay cut when she left a software company last year. She has since racked up $8,000 in credit card debt to cover basic expenses for her and her 13-year-old daughter.

Her story is not unique. In a financial survey by the FBI Agents Association, a Los Angeles agent reported he has to borrow money from his parents every few months. A New York agent goes dumpster diving for furniture. Another agent wrote of moving from room to room, often being homeless for days or weeks at a time.

GLENN KELLY, FBI AGENT'S ASSOCIATION: FBI agents aren't in this for the money. They are really the last true Boy and Girl Scouts in America. But it's very important -- it's vital to this war on terrorism that we pay them a fair salary.

SYLVESTER: It's particularly hard for the agents in large cities, where the need for agents is the greatest. A new San Francisco agent earns just over $56,000 a year. That includes overtime. But the cost of a modest home an hour and a half outside the city is $300,000. Many of the agents are lawyers, accountants, and computer specialists who could be making a lot more in the private sector.

Michigan Congressman Michael Rogers, a former FBI agent, wants to boost the cost of living pay.

REP. MICHAEL ROGERS (R), MICHIGAN: You know, when you start in the middle of the day start thinking, boy, am I going to make that payment at the end of the month versus how do I catch Osama bin Laden, we've got a problem in the Bureau.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SYLVESTER: Congressman Rogers' bill is making its way through the House, and Senator Charles Schumer will introduce legislation this Fall. But the bottom line is, unless something changes, it's going to get harder to retain these agents -- Lou.

DOBBS: Lisa, thank you. Lisa Sylvester reporting from Washington.

Still ahead here, the case Against Kobe Bryant moves forward. Deborah Feyerick will have a live report for us from Eagle, Colorado.

And workers across the country are asking, where's the money, as companies tighten their belts. Bill Tucker will report.

And hunting Saddam. The noose, we're told, is tightening, but he's still on the loose. Mike Boettcher will have the latest for us on the hunt for bin Laden. That's coming up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: Waco, Texas, authorities have officially ruled the death of Baylor basketball player Patrick Dennehy to be a homicide. Dennehy had been missing since the 12th of June. His body was discovered last Friday, four miles from the Baylor University campus in Waco. A medical report indicates he had been shot and killed at that location. Dennehy's former teammate, Carlton Dotson, has been charged with his murder. He's being held in Maryland without bail.

New developments tonight in the sexual assault case against NBA basketball star Kobe Bryant. Deborah Feyerick is in Eagle, Colorado, and has the latest for us -- Deborah.

DEBORAH FEYERICK, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hey there, Lou. Well, there's supposed to be a hearing tomorrow on whether to keep the Kobe Bryant file sealed. Right now the media wants the documents opened to the public, but Kobe Bryant and the district attorney want to keep the documents closed until trial.

Now it looks like that hearing could be delayed. The district attorney is asking for more time. The reason, he says, is that he was ambushed by the media, who filed their case a day late, and also he says that it was simply too thick, something like 230 pages.

What didn't help matters is that the fax machine in the district attorney's office broke down. So, some of the pages didn't come through until early this morning. The district attorney just says there simply isn't enough time to do what he needs to do in order to present a coherent argument tomorrow during this hearing. That's why he is asking a judge to delay it.

The prosecutors also have said that the media did not provide a witness list of the people that the media may call to the stand tomorrow, arguing why the whole file should be opened to the public.

Now, this should not impact Kobe Bryant's appearance, which is supposed to happen a week from today. He's still expected to be here to hear the charges against him read. But right now the district attorney hoping to postpone this hearing on whether to open the file. Lou?

DOBBS: Deborah, thank you very much. Deborah Feyerick from Eagle, Colorado.

Let's take a look at your thoughts now. John Brown of Los Angeles wrote in to defend the Pentagon's canceled program to establish a futures market on terrorist attacks. "Despite its questionable taste, the Terrorism Futures Exchange had some solid potential for predicting terrorist activity. I wonder if the Defense Department would make the software they developed available to the private sector?

On the issue of the classified 28 pages of the September 11 report, Florine Magness of Nashville, Tennessee, wrote, "I can't believe any American would want any information to be released to the public which may place the United States in a dangerous position. I believe this is just another tactic to disrupt the concerns of the White House to protect Americans. They just switched numbers from 16 to 28."

Holly Mason of Geneva, Illinois, however, said, "The administration should follow the hearts of the American people who want the entire truth about this national tragedy disclosed."

And many of you wrote about our guest last night on the nation's first public high school specifically for gays. Tonja Mason of Beach Bluff, Tennessee, said, "Instead of using money to build a separate school, use that money to educate. If the children are being harassed by other students, put the bullies in a segregated school. Show them there is zero tolerance for violence against others."

Brandi Jasmine agreed saying, "It is the bullies who need to be taken out and taught at special schools, ideally with gray bars on the windows."

And Bob Gibeling of Atlanta said, "Until straight people show enough interest to guarantee the safety of gay and lesbian children in school, then a protected school would be one of the finest uses of my tax dollars I can imagine."

We appreciate hearing from you. Send us your thoughts to loudobbs@cnn.com.

Still ahead, Sarbanes-Oxley one year later. Has corporate America really cleaned up its act? Senator Paul Sarbanes of Maryland is the co-author of the law. He is our guest tonight.

And selling America. American advertising pales in comparison to foreign alternatives. Jan Hopkins reports on the different face of advertising overseas.

And where's my raise? Prices are rising, but pay is not. This is a recovery? Workers across the country are demanding companies pay up. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: Workers all across the country can expect smaller pay increases this year and next, that according to two new studies. And executives will also feel the pain. Bill Tucker has the report.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BILL TUCKER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): The cost of health care rising at a rate of four percent. The cost of filling up the car, heating, or cooling the house, up nine percent this year, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics. The rise in the average paycheck? Not keeping pace.

MICHAEL BURNISTON, MERCER HUMAN RESOURCE CONSULTING: The purchasing power is certainly down, and what employees take home in their paycheck is considerably lower, and employers are having to face -- be faced with increasing the employee contributions to a lot of these plans. So, you have that coupled with lower salary increases, and that's going to feel like a pinch.

TUCKER: Employers on average are handing out pay increases of 3.3 percent, and that pretty much holds true right down the line whether you're an executive, in management, or in tech support. And while the average salary increase is running ahead of the overall inflation rate by a little less than one percent, worker insecurity is rising more quickly. After bottoming out three years ago, unemployment now stands at 6.4 percent, and the economic recovery is sluggish.

JARED BERNSTEIN, ECONOMIC POLICY INSTITUTE: While the economy is expanding, it's clearly doing so too slowly to generate positive job growth month after month. This is putting downward pressure on wage growth, especially compared to the kinds of wage growth numbers we were getting a few years ago.

TUCKER: This year is the third consecutive year that annual pay increases will be less than four percent.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

TUCKER: And next year's not looking like it will break into that four percent range either, with the average pay increase right now projected to be 3.5 percent -- Lou.

DOBBS: Bill Tucker, thank you.

Turning now to selling America, our series of special reports this week on advertising, the commercials that we see on television in this country are not the same as those seen in other countries. The ads are often more risque, and they frequently feature American celebrities who would never appear in spots shown in the United States.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JAN HOPKINS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): You won't see this ad in the United States. Even for the music video network MTV, it's too risque, so risque we had to alter the commercial to show it for this story.

ANTONY WRIGHT, OGILVY & MATHER: In Latin America, for example, there's a sort of long tradition of, you know, sexual imagery in advertising that would probably be upsetting or very controversial in the U. S., at least if it were part of a mainstream brand. In the U. K. and Europe, for example, advertising has tended to be far more entertaining than the U. S., and it's in a way the sort of contract with consumers that say, I'll entertain you if you will allow me to then talk about my product.

HOPKINS: You won't see actress Nicole Kidman in an ad in the United States. But she's on Spanish television for El Corte Ingles department store. Brad Pitt is selling Edwin jeans in Japan. Jennifer Lopez appears in Japanese ads for Subaru. And Richard Gere sells Italian chocolates.

Why do these stars appear in commercials outside the United States and not inside?

MARK TUTSELL, LEO BURNETT: Lots of big stars will not put their brand in jeopardy. They will take their brand elsewhere to the far corners of the world, where it won't be seen to a wider audience, to their critical audience, and obviously the heart of it is a lucrative sum of money.

HOPKINS: For global companies like IBM, advertising the same product around the world offers a challenge. In most cases IBM ads look alike, but there are always exceptions. In this case, the Chinese ad is different.

LISA BAIRD, WORLDWIDE ADVERTISING & MARKETING, IBM: The magic invisible thread is based on a very old, centuries-old local fairy tale about the importance of weaving things together. And what a great fit that was for a topic that consumes much of our business audience today.

HOPKINS: Ad agencies are always looking for ideas in other countries. The new Moto ads from Motorola came from teenagers in Taiwan, who called their phones Motos because they can't pronounce Motorola.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HOPKINS: Ad executives predict that American ads will look a lot more like the risque Latin American and European ads in the next few years. That's thanks to cable television pushing the envelope and now pulling in bigger audiences than the networks -- Lou.

DOBBS: Those commercials featuring Richard Gere and Nicole Kidman -- the idea being that they would be overexposed in this country?

HOPKINS: If they were doing the ads here. So, they go someplace that they aren't seen as much, and they get a lot of money for it.

DOBBS: And when we explain about the oversexed approach of Madison Avenue approach these days, it's nothing compared to what the rest of the world is experiencing.

HOPKINS: Absolute. But the cultures are different, as the ad executives point out.

DOBBS: I noticed that. I noticed that, Jan. Thank you very much. Jan Hopkins.

Tomorrow we continue our series of special reports on advertising. We take a look at product placement, the subtle ways in which viewers are being manipulate the by those advertisers.

Well, it was a year ago today that President Bush signed into law what was billed as a sweeping reform of corporate America. The Sarbanes-Oxley Act was designed to stop creative accounting, unruly executives, and dishonest executives and boards, all the while stiffening penalties for misconduct. However, one year later, the effectiveness of the law is debatable.

Our corporate America criminal scoreboard shows 83 executives have been criminally charged in the 604 days since Enron filed for bankruptcy. Only one of those, Sam Waksal, has actually been sent to jail.

Joining me now to discuss the Sarbanes-Oxley legislation, its effectiveness one year later, is the man who led the fight for the bill and now law, Senator Paul Sarbanes.

Senator, good to have you with us.

SEN. PAUL SARBANES (D), MARYLAND: Thank you very much, Lou. I'm pleased to be back with you.

DOBBS: Senator, the corporate America scoreboard, criminal scoreboard that we put up every night here, shows still only one person in jail. What's your reaction to that fact after 20 months following Enron?

SARBANES: Well, I'm reminded of the old saying that the wheels of justice grind slowly, but they grind very fine. You know, there's a special task force within the executive branch, which, after all, are the ones who bring the prosecutions, headed by Larry Thompson, the deputy attorney general of the United States. And they're supposed to be pulling together in a coordinated fashion, with strong input from Washington, these various criminal investigations that are taking place across the country. I'm not, you know, privy to what they're doing and obviously shouldn't be. But it's my understanding that they're hard at work.

DOBBS: Working hard, one person in jail. That's not much to show for 604 days, is it, Senator?

SARBANES: Well, who knows what's coming down the road? I think they have to be allowed to do their work. I don't -- I have no reason to...

DOBBS: I wouldn't interfere with their work at all, Senator. I'm just saying that to this point that work hasn't produced but one person behind bars.

SARBANES: Well, I'm sure as they listen to you make that point, Lou, and follow your index every night, that that's prompting them to redouble their efforts in this arena.

DOBBS: Well, Senator, let's turn to the legislation that you were successful in bringing to law. And the law to this point, has it been as effective as you had hoped when you authored it?

SARBANES: Well, my real concern over the past year is that we get the statutory framework into place and start implementing this law. In that regard, I think we've made a very substantial progress. The Public Company Accounting Oversight Board is now fully in place. Chairman Donaldson and his colleagues at the SEC were able to get Bill McDonough, the former chairman of the New York Federal Reserve, to come be the chairman of that oversight board, which is a terrific step in and of itself. He's a person of great ability and credibility. And they're hard at work now. And they're really moving forward. They're putting their rules and regulations into place. They've begun their inspections of the four major accounting firms. You know, they've got a good work schedule. They're gearing their staff up. So I'm greatly encouraged by that.

DOBBS: You mentioned...

SARBANES: But the...

DOBBS: ... the four accounting -- excuse me, Senator. You mentioned the four accounting firms. The Public Accounting Oversight Board, which was the creation of your law, Bill McDonough stepping in, a highly respected, highly able, as you said, man, but still behind the curve because all that went before in getting that board running. Are you concerned about the consolidation of the accounting industry, a great deal of power is held now by four companies in this country?

SARBANES: Yes, we are concerned about it. And one of the provisions that was in Sarbanes-Oxley called for a study of the concentration that was taking place in the accounting industry. The date for coming back with that study has not yet been reached, but we manifested that concern when we did the legislation by commissioning this further study. It is a problem. I mean, we're down now -- it used to be the -- you know, we had the glorious eight, and now we're down to the final four.

(LAUGHTER)

DOBBS: Your co-author of the bill, Congressman Michael Oxley, has expressed his concern that perhaps the legislation has gone too far, creating a risk-adverse and cautious, if not outright afraid corporate America. Do you share those concerns?

SARBANES: Not really. And I'm not sure that -- we had a celebration event this morning at the SEC. And that question was asked, and Chairman Donaldson of the SEC made a good point. He said, there are two kinds of risk. If you're talking about regulatory risk, people ought not to take it, they need to be very careful. If you're talking about economic risk, in other words, you know, an aggressive, forward moving economic posture, that's a different situation. And I don't -- look, a lot of people went to these corporate executives, including lawyers and accountants, and they said, oh, you've really got to do a lot of things now. And they would prepare these thick booklets for them about the legislation, enough to scare anyone to death, just looking at what they were putting forth. It had a self- serving dimension to it, I think. But I think as people work through it and they come to appreciate what's required, some companies will have to make significant changes, for instance, instituting internal controls to meet the requirements of the statute. But I think they will all be better off for it. And I think then they will be able to move ahead in an aggressive economic fashion. DOBBS: Well, to the degree that you've helped corporate America discretely segregate business risk and regulatory risk, the nation's in your debt. Senator Paul Sarbanes, we thank you for being with us.

SARBANES: Thank you very much.

DOBBS: Thank you.

The hunt for two of the world's most wanted men. Mike Boettcher reports on the hunt for Osama bin Laden and Saddam Hussein.

And "Face Off." The future of the Hubble Telescope is in danger. The instrument that has brought us the most spectacular imagery from space in danger of being shut down.

And off track. A proposal to save Amtrak from failure: to put the states in charge. But can Amtrak survive without federal funds? That story and a great deal more still ahead here.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: NASA is being forced to balance the pursuit of science with the cost of that pursuit. Right now, astronomers are debating the future of the Hubble Telescope, which NASA, at this point, wants to shut down in a matter of years.

The pictures that you're looking at were collected by Hubble. They are the most spectacular imagery ever returned to us from space. Hubble has been orbiting 375 miles above Earth since 1990.

In tonight's "Face Off," two of this country's most important astronomers, Professor John Huchra of the Harvard Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics, and Professor George Rieke of the University of Arizona, discuss what's at stake for the Hubble Space Program, whether it should survive.

Professor Huchra says absolutely.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JOHN HUCHRA, CHMN., AURA BOARD OF DIRECTORS: One of the things that I've learned in doing science, and I've had a lot of fun learning it, is to ask the right questions, or at least try to ask the right question.

I think Hubble hasn't used up its usefulness. One of the very important things about HST is that we can go up and service it. And there will need to be a mission in 2009 or so to go up and bring HST down or attach propulsion modules to bring it down. We could do at that time something to extend its life and also make it more capable. If it's....

DOBBS: Just as we've done -- what? -- three or four times? That's exactly right. Every time a new instrument has been put on Hubble, interest in the scientific community goes right back up to where it was at the very beginning. New discoveries are made, new capabilities are made, or enable to allow us to keep doing our work. One more time, I think, would not be inappropriate, especially if NASA is thinking about new scenarios for bringing HST down, not just using the shuttle itself to bring the telescope down.

DOBBS: You're not so sure of that, are you, Professor Rieke?

GEORGE RIEKE, ASTRONOMY PROFESSOR, UNIVERSITY OF ARIZONA: Well, it's complicated. I guess I should say there's a plus and a minus to being able to service Hubble. Until recently I had an old Cadillac, and it was built with something we used to call planned obsolescence, where it was supposed to be serviced frequently. It was a great car to drive, but my wife kept pointing out that it was really expensive, and so is Hubble because of the need to send the shuttle up to service it over and over. The other point is that with this expense we have lived through about half the life of Hubble. If we service it one more time, which is already in the plans, it will get a total about 16 years of life out of the mission and...

DOBBS: That service point was supposed to be 2004, perhaps 2005 now with the shuttle delays now, is that correct?

RIEKE: That's correct. And each servicing is good for about four more years of life. So we won't have had a huge amount of time to get discoveries out of Hubble, and the history is that in science you make fewer dramatic discoveries and really shifts in your whole view of the universe as an observatory gets older. So we have other missions that are competing for the money that would be needed to service Hubble and keep it running for another four or five years. And so using the explorer example is a little bit like Lewis and Clark going across the prairie and deciding at Omaha they'd seen lots of prairie and they were going to stop at Omaha and start studying prairie in a lot of detail and never going on to making the discoveries that are potentially in front of us in astronomy and were in front of them in going across the nation. In astronomy we have to build new space missions with new capabilities to make those discoveries.

DOBBS: Professor Huchra doesn't look too persuaded by the Iowa metaphor.

HUCHRA: Well, I think the issue is the question that I was getting to before, which is what is the right question? If in fact you put everything in the box and close the lid and say you can only pick out one toy from the box or whatever, your conclusions are correct. However, I think part of the question before us is not just whether or not HST would be useful in trading against other missions, but what will the cost be to keep it going for a few more years and whether that cost is justified by the possibilities, the capabilities, the new science that could be done?

Unlike what George was saying about his Cadillac, I think with HST there has not been a real diminution in the rate of discovery as a function of time. And it's in part because we can update the instruments on the telescope. Another piece of the story is that you know the imaging that has come back from HST. It has become a mainstay of the way we do science in not just the field of optical and UV astronomy but others as well.

DOBBS: Professor Rieke...

HUCHRA: We stand a good chance of losing that until 2020 unless HST is kept going for a while.

DOBBS: The potential of lost science is also, I think, if I may say, Professor Rieke, what I understand the center of your concerns about stable with Hubble too long, threatening the James Webb Space Telescope, the other planned telescopes. These are the big toys that are in the wing just waiting for their chance at service in space are they not?

RIEKE: Yes. And it isn't just the James Webb, it's the whole future sequence of telescopes that explore further in the ultraviolet, further in the infrared. I guess the real point is that we have to move on. It's painful. Great discoveries have been made. But the cost of servicing Hubble which John referred to is actually not very different from if you look at the total program costs from the cost of Sertav (ph), which is the fourth of the great observatories of which Hubble is a member, which is going to be launched in hopefully about a month. So that's an entire mission with a tremendous discovery potential because it's all new technology, new detectors, radically different. And for the cost of what it would take to extend the Hubble mission another four or five years.

HUCHRA: But you can look at it another way, George, and that is that the cost of extending the Hubble mission another four or five years is less than 1 percent of the NASA overall budget over that same period of time. Is it worth or not, that's the question I think that we need to answer. And my tendency at the moment is to believe that the correct answer is yes, it is worth it, especially if we can put a new instrument on HST in 2009.

DOBBS: Gentlemen...

RIEKE: Well, John

DOBBS: Go ahead. Professor Rieke, you have the final word.

RIEKE: OK. I mean, basically, I agree. If they can get the money, then it would be great to have Hubble JWST, and three or four other missions, but we do have to set priorities. And I think that's what this exercise is all about. And I think that the new missions have to have a higher priority than Hubble.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

DOBBS: Professor George Rieke and Professor John Huchra.

Tomorrow they will join a number of other astronomers meeting with NASA in Washington to argue whether Hubble survives or not. "Tonight's Thought" is on space. "The secret of success on planet Earth is space. Lots of it. Our solar system is a tiny island of activity in an ocean of emptiness." From Paul Davies, author of "The Last Three Minutes."

The subject of "Tonight's Poll," the question, what do you think of the Hubble Space Telescope? Out of this world, worth while, outdated, or space junk.

Cast your vote at cnn.com/lou. We'll have the results later in the show.

The final results of yesterday's poll question, Do you believe the White House should declassify the 28 blacked-out pages of the September 11 report?

Eighty-four percent of you said, yes, 16 percent said, no.

Osama bin Laden, the terrorist responsible for September 11 is still at large. It's almost two years since President Bush said he wanted Osama bin Laden dead or alive.

Our national correspondent Mike Boettcher has the report.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MIKE BOETTCHER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): U.S. troops on the hunt for Saddam Hussein, missing him by just a matter of hours, we're told. They're confident they are closing in on the former Iraqi leader.

Along the Afghanistan/Pakistan border, U.S. troops on the hunt for Osama bin Laden. While visiting the area, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff expressing confidence that progress is being made in finding bin Laden.

GEN. RICHARD MYERS, JOINT CHIEFS CHAIRMAN: He's, no doubt, being very careful how he moves.

BOETTCHER: In both cases, recent successes. U.S. troops killing Saddam's sons in Iraq and Pakistani forces capturing al Qaeda's operational commander, Khalid Shaikh Mohammed. And in each manhunt, they've narrowed down the area where they're looking for their prime target. In Iraq, to an area around Baghdad and Tikrit; and with bin Laden, to areas along the Afghanistan/Pakistan border.

So why does it seem so much harder to get close to bin Laden?

KEN ROBINSON, SECURITY ANALYST: The two situations are totally different.

BOETTCHER: CNN national security analyst Ken Robinson says terrain is one reason. It is easier to go after Saddam because the area he might be in is flat, easy for troops to operate in. Not so in the area where bin Laden is believed hiding. ROBINSON: The aircraft don't have the ability to loiter over some of those targets in those lawless areas without having to go back and refuel.

BOETTCHER: Another important difference? The U.S. can't act alone in hunting bin Laden. It must rely in large part on Pakistan.

Then there's human intelligence. Not much there in the hunt for bin Laden, and no takers so far on the $25 million reward on either side of the Afghan/Pakistan border.

But Saddam Hussein is swimming in a much less loyal sea, says Robinson. And already someone has given up his sons for $30 million. Lots of people are talking right now in Iraq.

ROBINSON: The Shia being 60 -- potentially 60 percent, they have incentive to try to influence what post-war Iraq is going to look like, and many of those folks have no love lost for Saddam Hussein and are the sources of much of the human intelligence which is coming into the coalition right now.

BOETTCHER, (on camera): Another reason the trail has been much colder in the case of Osama bin Laden, military sources tell CNN that Special Operations Forces and CIA operatives needed for that job are currently in Iraq, looking for Saddam Hussein.

Mike Boettcher, CNN, Atlanta.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

DOBBS: When we continue state run Amtrak. That's what the Bush administration is proposing, to save the failing railroad. Peter Viles will have the story.

And the end of Beetle-mania. Not the musicians, the car. The last of the original bugs rolling out.

And it's called SARS-stock. It's goal, to revive Toronto's ailing economy. That story from Toronto still ahead, plus more, stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: CNN has just learned that the Los Angeles County District Attorney will retry former Inglewood police officer Jeremy Morse. Morse was videotaped slamming a teenage suspect against a patrol car and hitting him in the face.

Yesterday a judge declared a mistrial, a hung jury in his trial in Los Angeles. His partner was acquitted of falsifying a police report. Again, the L.A. District attorney will retry former police officer, Inglewood police officer Jeremy Morse.

Turning to other news tonight, it is one of the largest rock concerts in history, and it's going on right now in Toronto. The Rolling Stones headlining the concert. It's been dubbed SARS-stock. and about a half million people are expected to be there. Toronto officials are hoping, of course, the concert will help to revive its tourism, which suffered dramatic losses during the recent SARS virus outbreak. This concert could generate as much as $50 million for the city's economy.

The White House's new plan to overhaul Amtrak could run into trouble in the Senate. Two prominent Republican senators today held a news conference. They're critical of the proposal. At issue is the White House plan to shift much of the burden for Amtrak from the federal government to the state governments. Peter Viles reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

PETER VILES, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Born in 1971, Amtrak has survived six presidents, chronic deficits, and countless budget crises. But now the Bush administration is proposing a reorganization that denationalizes operations of the national railroad.

The plan is to turn operating control and decisions over to whichever states want to run their portion of an interstate national railroad. Critics say it would probably mean the end of national service.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think if you turn it over to the states you're going to run into the kind of problem where one state takes over, the other state contiguous doesn't, and so you wouldn't have a uniformity of service or you might not have service at all. I think we have to have a commitment to a national system.

SEN. TRENT LOTT (R), MISSISSIPPI: If after 2 1/2 years that's all they can come up with, they ought to be ashamed. It is a guarantee to fail. To dump it off, basically, on the states and say good luck, basically say, oh, we're going to do this like urban mass transportation, we'll help you, you know, with some of the capital costs, but then after that operating's up to you. I mean, how is this going to work?

VILES: The Bush administration says it is committed to a national system, but that doesn't necessarily mean preserving all national routes. It points out the system now works best connecting cities in the same region. The heavily traveled corridor from Washington to Boston, for example.

ALLAN RUTTER, FEDERAL RAILROAD AMINISTRATION: We believe what national rail service is is a national program which supports the provision of passenger rail service where people want to use it, where it goes places where people want to go when they want to go there.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

VILES: Amtrak itself had no comment on the Bush proposal and has to tread lightly in Washington because it's always asking for money there. It is seeking $1.8 billion in federal funds next year. The Bush administration has offered half of that, $900 million -- Lou.

DOBBS: You've got to love Washington. This is a beauty.

VILES: It is a year in, year out struggle, the degree to which the federal government wants to support a national railroad.

DOBBS: It looks like Senator Lott has got this one right. This looks like a bit of a joke.

VILES: Yes. I mean, a national railroad...

DOBBS: A bad one at that.

VILES: ... run by the states is not really a national railroad. It's a bunch of state railroads.

DOBBS: All right. Peter viles, thank you.

When we continue, the results of tonight's poll. Then Christine Romans will be here. She'll have the market for us. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: These are the results of tonight's poll question. What do you think of the hubble space telescope? Do you think it's out of this world, 39 percent said so, worthwhile 47 percent, outdated and space junk running in distant third and fourth. Good for this audience.

And not so good for the market. The major indexes today finished a little lower. Christine Romans now has the market for us, and there you have it. Those gigantic moves on the day.

CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Exactly. Three down days in a row now for the Dow and the S&P. But Lou, three down days, that's not even half of Friday's big rally, so that's some perspective.

Slightly more stocks rose than fell at the big board. Volume a light 1.3 billion shares. That has one trader telling me they should have canceled trading today. But consider this, that's quiet compared to last July's average volume of 1.8 billion. But still, Lou, it's five times more volume on a quiet day today than an average July day just 10 years ago.

Oil companies dominated the earnings news today. Many reporting sharp gains in earnings. Chevron-Texaco raised its dividend as did the shoemaker Kenneth Cole. Meanwhile, the highest bond yield since December attracted bond buyers. Bonds up for the first time today in five. The 10-year note fell to 4.31 percent. This even as the treasury said, it's going to sell a record $60 billion in new securities.

DOBBS: That's not good for those prices over there. The volume on the big board, give us the most positive metric you can on that.

ROMANS: 1.3 billion shares down 27 percent from last year, but up five times from ten years ago. That's pretty good. DOBBS: You've got to love an optimist. Christine, thanks a lot. Christine Romans with the market.

Finally tonight, the end of an era. The last original Style Volkswagen Beetle rolled off the assembly line in Puebla, Mexico today. The final Beetle to be in a museum in Wolfesburg, Germany. The car was there first developed and produced.

That's our show for tonight. Thank's for being with us. For all of us here, good night from New York. "LIVE FROM THE HEADLINES" with Anderson Cooper is next.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com





Intensifies; NASA Wants to End Hubble Program>


Aired July 30, 2003 - 18:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LOU DOBBS, HOST: Tonight, the search for Saddam. Washington calls him a piece of trash. Osama bin Laden remembered. The hunt for bin Laden intensifies.
The most important telescope in the history of man. NASA wants to end the Hubble space telescope. Two renowned astronomers face off tonight.

And a year after Sarbanes-Oxley, are we winning the war against corporate corruption? Senator Paul Sarbanes is our guest.

Good evening. President Bush today said he takes personal responsibility for everything he said in his State of the Union address about Iraq. The President also strongly defended his national security adviser, Condoleezza Rice.

At issue, faulty intelligence that was expressed in the State of the Union speech. The President's comments came in his first news conference held since march. Senior White House correspondent John King joins me now. John?

JOHN KING, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: And, Lou, that news conference ran about 52 minutes in the Rose Garden. The president called on 17 reporters. That debate over the now discredited claim that Iraq was trying to buy nuclear materials in Africa, one of the many issues addressed by the President. You'll remember his national security adviser, Dr. Rice, initially said it was the CIA's fault that that ended up in the State of the Union. Later the White House had to acknowledge the CIA did warn the White House that the intelligence was dubious at best.

Mr. Bush today saying Condi Rice, in his view, is an honest person and that the American people are lucky to have her service. The president also said if you want to blame someone for the fact that that line ended up in his speech, blame him. But the president vigorously supported the overall case for going to war.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I take personal responsibility for everything I say. Of course. Absolutely. I also take responsibility for making decisions on war and peace. And I analyzed a thorough body of intelligence -- good, solid, sound intelligence -- that led me to come to the conclusion that it was necessary to remove Saddam Hussein from power. (END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: The president also defended the administration's political plan and reconstruction plan for post-war Iraq. He said his critics simply need to be patient, or as the president put it, he never expected Thomas Jefferson to pop up in Iraq within the first 90 days since hostilities ended.

Mr. Bush also took several questions on the economy. He acknowledged that his big tax cuts passed in 2001, to follow up since then, are contributing to growing budget deficits, but the president says those tax cuts were the right call for an ailing economy.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BUSH: I made the decision to address the recession by a tax cut. And so, part of the deficit, no question, was caused by taxes, about 25 percent of the deficit. The other 75 -- 50 percent caused by lack of revenues and 25 percent caused by additional spending on the war on terror.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: Despite mounting pressure from Congress, the president holding firm and saying he will not release those classified documents about possible Saudi connections to the 9/11 hijackers, and the president brushing off a question about how could he raise $170 million, perhaps even more, for his political campaign for the presidential primaries next year when he has no Republican opposition? Asked how he could spend all that money, the president smiled, Lou, and said, "Just watch."

DOBBS: John King, senior White House correspondent. Thank you very much.

Well, Secretary of State Colin Powell today said Saddam Hussein is a piece of trash waiting to be picked up.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

COLIN POWELL, SECRETARY OF STATE: Slowly but surely the infrastructure is being put back in place, surely -- slowly but surely, Ambassador Bremer and his team are successfully starting up economic activity, and a political process is under way. And the international community is coming in all ways to support this effort. And that's the good news. And Saddam Hussein is no longer bad news. He's a piece of trash waiting to be collected.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

DOBBS: The secretary of state also made comments about a new U. N. Resolution on Iraq. The United States was willing to go it alone when it came to military action against Saddam Hussein. But in a major reversal, the United States now wants the United Nations' help in rebuilding Iraq. Kitty Pilgrim reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KITTY PILGRIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): Last January, before the war, the Bush administration was accused of trying to go it alone against Iraq. A streak of geopolitical independence was clearly showing.

POWELL: When we feel strongly about something, we will lead. We will act even if others are not prepared to join us.

PILGRIM: And again at the State of the Union speech a few days later.

BUSH: We're asking them to join us. And many are doing so. Yet the course of this nation does not depend on the decisions of others.

PILGRIM: Now, with the Iraq war declared over, there is the enormous job of patrolling Iraq, as well as rebuilding it. The price tag, nearly $4 billion a month.

U.N. Resolution 1483 gave the United States and Britain clear power to run Iraq. But now administration officials are considering whether or not to recommend a new U. N. resolution to induce other countries to get involved.

Secretary of State Powell indicated a sea change this month after meeting with German Foreign Minister Joschka Fischer. mentioning a new U. N. resolution.

Other administration officials have signaled a change in tone also.

PAUL WOLFOWITZ, DEPUTY DEFENSE SECRETARY: We would certainly welcome any resolution that would make it easier for countries to contribute peacekeeping troops. Some have said that it would make it easier for them.

PILGRIM: Wednesday World Bank President James Wolfensohn was in Iraq assessing reconstruction needs with U. N. special representative Sergio Vieira de Mello. Under the current resolution, the U. N. has a limited role, but that could potentially be broadened. There are still no illusions about the U. N. and its glacial speed and no desire to undercut the authority of American administrators there.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Speed is of the essence here, and the U. N. isn't always speedy. That is why Ambassador Bremer is very anxious to make sure that he preserves his authorities to move the process forward as rapidly as possible.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PILGRIM: In the end, Secretary of State Powell today said he had not made any recommendation yet to President Bush about when or how a U.N. resolution would be ultimately crafted -- Lou.

DOBBS: But the decision appears to have been made to seek one.

PILGRIM: They're sure talking about it a lot.

DOBBS: What's the point of one now?

PILGRIM: Well, I guess that a lot of countries like France, Germany, India have signaled that they won't really participate unless there's a broader role for the U. N. And so, I guess if we want them on board, it seems that we'll have to play that game one more time.

DOBBS: Kitty, thank you very much. Kitty Pilgrim.

Well, the chairman of the joint chiefs of staff, General Richard Myers, today said only remnants of the Taliban remain in Afghanistan. Senior Pentagon correspondent Jamie McIntyre is traveling with the general and has this exclusive record from Gardiz, Afghanistan.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN SENIOR PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT (voice over): I talked with General Myers as the U. S. joint chiefs chairman was wrapping up his tour of Iraq and Afghanistan. His assessment was upbeat.

GENERAL RICHARD MYERS, JOINT CHIEFS CHAIRMAN: And I just wanted to get, you know, a little more hands on, a little more firsthand look at how they did their job, to tell them thank you.

MCINTYRE: Myers was briefed at a remote outpost near Gardiz, one of four locations in Afghanistan where the U. S. Military has established headquarters for reconstruction teams.

MYERS: Here we have a provincial reconstruction team working with the local populace out to -- around here to several hundred kilometers and bringing hope to those families and to those children.

MCINTYRE: Myers disputes critics who say the war in Iraq is diverting U. S. focus from the war against terrorism. In fact, he says, intelligence gathered in Iraq is helping in the hunt for Al Qaeda.

A lot of focus now on Saddam Hussein, but we haven't heard much about Osama bin Laden. Any prospect of getting Osama bin Laden anytime soon?

MYERS: Well, the question is is he alive or dead? I think it's still a pertinent question. Those that think he's alive think he's here in the -- in the ungoverned areas between Afghanistan and Pakistan. We have people that work very hard to find the senior Al Qaeda leadership, of which he is obviously the most senior.

MCINTYRE: Despite recent attacks against U. S. troops in Afghanistan and anticipated resurgence of the Taliban in the Spring never materialized, Myers says.

MYERS: There are remnants, but they're very, very -- they're onesies and twosies. There are not large numbers of these people that have been effective at all. MCINTYRE: And nation building, once a dirty word in the Pentagon's lexicon, now comes with the territory.

MYERS: The last thing you want to have happen in Afghanistan, or for that matter in Iraq, but here in Afghanistan because that's where we are, is to have this go back to a place where terrorists can gather, they can plan, they can train, and do those sorts of things.

MCINTYRE (on camera): While Iraq and Afghanistan present different challenges, in both cases the U. S. Military faces a mammoth task getting the countries back on their feet. One thing that's clear from General Myers' brief inspection tour -- U. S. troops won't be leaving either place anytime soon.

Jamie McIntyre, CNN, Gardiz, Afghanistan.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

DOBBS: Coming up, rising unemployment and stagnant salaries, the hallmarks of the job market these days. Is this a recovery? Bill Tucker will report on workers' big question, where's my raise?

And they're charged with protecting this nation. But they can't even pay their personal bills. Lisa Sylvester reports from Washington on the underpaid FBI.

And the first anniversary of sweeping corporate crime legislation. Senator Paul Sarbanes is one of the sponsors of the Sarbanes-Oxley law. He joins us. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: In the face of criticism, the government has decided not to cut the size of the air marshal program. There were reports the program would be cut because of budget problems, but Homeland Security Director Tom Ridge today refuted those reports.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TOM RIDGE, HOMELAND SECURITY SECRETARY: America should know that every air marshal that we have is being deployed, and additional resources are being directed to that very critical mission. America should also know, and I suggest they probably share this point of view, that after flight 93, it is doubtful that any group of passengers would let any would-be hijacker take over their plane.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

DOBBS: A bigger budget has not helped the men and women of the FBI, many of whom earn so little they struggle to pay their bills. This is not only a personal crisis for them, but a threat to our national security. Lisa Sylvester reports from Washington.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

LISA SYLVESTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): FBI special agent Lisa Rich takes home $2,800 a month, not much considering she works in New York City, where the cost of living is more than twice the national average.

LISA RICH, FBI SPECIAL AGENT: It's kind of hard when you have to look and watch every dime that you make and difficult knowing that when all is said and done at the end of the day, you're just not going to have enough money.

SYLVESTER: Rich took a $15,000 pay cut when she left a software company last year. She has since racked up $8,000 in credit card debt to cover basic expenses for her and her 13-year-old daughter.

Her story is not unique. In a financial survey by the FBI Agents Association, a Los Angeles agent reported he has to borrow money from his parents every few months. A New York agent goes dumpster diving for furniture. Another agent wrote of moving from room to room, often being homeless for days or weeks at a time.

GLENN KELLY, FBI AGENT'S ASSOCIATION: FBI agents aren't in this for the money. They are really the last true Boy and Girl Scouts in America. But it's very important -- it's vital to this war on terrorism that we pay them a fair salary.

SYLVESTER: It's particularly hard for the agents in large cities, where the need for agents is the greatest. A new San Francisco agent earns just over $56,000 a year. That includes overtime. But the cost of a modest home an hour and a half outside the city is $300,000. Many of the agents are lawyers, accountants, and computer specialists who could be making a lot more in the private sector.

Michigan Congressman Michael Rogers, a former FBI agent, wants to boost the cost of living pay.

REP. MICHAEL ROGERS (R), MICHIGAN: You know, when you start in the middle of the day start thinking, boy, am I going to make that payment at the end of the month versus how do I catch Osama bin Laden, we've got a problem in the Bureau.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SYLVESTER: Congressman Rogers' bill is making its way through the House, and Senator Charles Schumer will introduce legislation this Fall. But the bottom line is, unless something changes, it's going to get harder to retain these agents -- Lou.

DOBBS: Lisa, thank you. Lisa Sylvester reporting from Washington.

Still ahead here, the case Against Kobe Bryant moves forward. Deborah Feyerick will have a live report for us from Eagle, Colorado.

And workers across the country are asking, where's the money, as companies tighten their belts. Bill Tucker will report.

And hunting Saddam. The noose, we're told, is tightening, but he's still on the loose. Mike Boettcher will have the latest for us on the hunt for bin Laden. That's coming up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: Waco, Texas, authorities have officially ruled the death of Baylor basketball player Patrick Dennehy to be a homicide. Dennehy had been missing since the 12th of June. His body was discovered last Friday, four miles from the Baylor University campus in Waco. A medical report indicates he had been shot and killed at that location. Dennehy's former teammate, Carlton Dotson, has been charged with his murder. He's being held in Maryland without bail.

New developments tonight in the sexual assault case against NBA basketball star Kobe Bryant. Deborah Feyerick is in Eagle, Colorado, and has the latest for us -- Deborah.

DEBORAH FEYERICK, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hey there, Lou. Well, there's supposed to be a hearing tomorrow on whether to keep the Kobe Bryant file sealed. Right now the media wants the documents opened to the public, but Kobe Bryant and the district attorney want to keep the documents closed until trial.

Now it looks like that hearing could be delayed. The district attorney is asking for more time. The reason, he says, is that he was ambushed by the media, who filed their case a day late, and also he says that it was simply too thick, something like 230 pages.

What didn't help matters is that the fax machine in the district attorney's office broke down. So, some of the pages didn't come through until early this morning. The district attorney just says there simply isn't enough time to do what he needs to do in order to present a coherent argument tomorrow during this hearing. That's why he is asking a judge to delay it.

The prosecutors also have said that the media did not provide a witness list of the people that the media may call to the stand tomorrow, arguing why the whole file should be opened to the public.

Now, this should not impact Kobe Bryant's appearance, which is supposed to happen a week from today. He's still expected to be here to hear the charges against him read. But right now the district attorney hoping to postpone this hearing on whether to open the file. Lou?

DOBBS: Deborah, thank you very much. Deborah Feyerick from Eagle, Colorado.

Let's take a look at your thoughts now. John Brown of Los Angeles wrote in to defend the Pentagon's canceled program to establish a futures market on terrorist attacks. "Despite its questionable taste, the Terrorism Futures Exchange had some solid potential for predicting terrorist activity. I wonder if the Defense Department would make the software they developed available to the private sector?

On the issue of the classified 28 pages of the September 11 report, Florine Magness of Nashville, Tennessee, wrote, "I can't believe any American would want any information to be released to the public which may place the United States in a dangerous position. I believe this is just another tactic to disrupt the concerns of the White House to protect Americans. They just switched numbers from 16 to 28."

Holly Mason of Geneva, Illinois, however, said, "The administration should follow the hearts of the American people who want the entire truth about this national tragedy disclosed."

And many of you wrote about our guest last night on the nation's first public high school specifically for gays. Tonja Mason of Beach Bluff, Tennessee, said, "Instead of using money to build a separate school, use that money to educate. If the children are being harassed by other students, put the bullies in a segregated school. Show them there is zero tolerance for violence against others."

Brandi Jasmine agreed saying, "It is the bullies who need to be taken out and taught at special schools, ideally with gray bars on the windows."

And Bob Gibeling of Atlanta said, "Until straight people show enough interest to guarantee the safety of gay and lesbian children in school, then a protected school would be one of the finest uses of my tax dollars I can imagine."

We appreciate hearing from you. Send us your thoughts to loudobbs@cnn.com.

Still ahead, Sarbanes-Oxley one year later. Has corporate America really cleaned up its act? Senator Paul Sarbanes of Maryland is the co-author of the law. He is our guest tonight.

And selling America. American advertising pales in comparison to foreign alternatives. Jan Hopkins reports on the different face of advertising overseas.

And where's my raise? Prices are rising, but pay is not. This is a recovery? Workers across the country are demanding companies pay up. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: Workers all across the country can expect smaller pay increases this year and next, that according to two new studies. And executives will also feel the pain. Bill Tucker has the report.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BILL TUCKER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): The cost of health care rising at a rate of four percent. The cost of filling up the car, heating, or cooling the house, up nine percent this year, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics. The rise in the average paycheck? Not keeping pace.

MICHAEL BURNISTON, MERCER HUMAN RESOURCE CONSULTING: The purchasing power is certainly down, and what employees take home in their paycheck is considerably lower, and employers are having to face -- be faced with increasing the employee contributions to a lot of these plans. So, you have that coupled with lower salary increases, and that's going to feel like a pinch.

TUCKER: Employers on average are handing out pay increases of 3.3 percent, and that pretty much holds true right down the line whether you're an executive, in management, or in tech support. And while the average salary increase is running ahead of the overall inflation rate by a little less than one percent, worker insecurity is rising more quickly. After bottoming out three years ago, unemployment now stands at 6.4 percent, and the economic recovery is sluggish.

JARED BERNSTEIN, ECONOMIC POLICY INSTITUTE: While the economy is expanding, it's clearly doing so too slowly to generate positive job growth month after month. This is putting downward pressure on wage growth, especially compared to the kinds of wage growth numbers we were getting a few years ago.

TUCKER: This year is the third consecutive year that annual pay increases will be less than four percent.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

TUCKER: And next year's not looking like it will break into that four percent range either, with the average pay increase right now projected to be 3.5 percent -- Lou.

DOBBS: Bill Tucker, thank you.

Turning now to selling America, our series of special reports this week on advertising, the commercials that we see on television in this country are not the same as those seen in other countries. The ads are often more risque, and they frequently feature American celebrities who would never appear in spots shown in the United States.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JAN HOPKINS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): You won't see this ad in the United States. Even for the music video network MTV, it's too risque, so risque we had to alter the commercial to show it for this story.

ANTONY WRIGHT, OGILVY & MATHER: In Latin America, for example, there's a sort of long tradition of, you know, sexual imagery in advertising that would probably be upsetting or very controversial in the U. S., at least if it were part of a mainstream brand. In the U. K. and Europe, for example, advertising has tended to be far more entertaining than the U. S., and it's in a way the sort of contract with consumers that say, I'll entertain you if you will allow me to then talk about my product.

HOPKINS: You won't see actress Nicole Kidman in an ad in the United States. But she's on Spanish television for El Corte Ingles department store. Brad Pitt is selling Edwin jeans in Japan. Jennifer Lopez appears in Japanese ads for Subaru. And Richard Gere sells Italian chocolates.

Why do these stars appear in commercials outside the United States and not inside?

MARK TUTSELL, LEO BURNETT: Lots of big stars will not put their brand in jeopardy. They will take their brand elsewhere to the far corners of the world, where it won't be seen to a wider audience, to their critical audience, and obviously the heart of it is a lucrative sum of money.

HOPKINS: For global companies like IBM, advertising the same product around the world offers a challenge. In most cases IBM ads look alike, but there are always exceptions. In this case, the Chinese ad is different.

LISA BAIRD, WORLDWIDE ADVERTISING & MARKETING, IBM: The magic invisible thread is based on a very old, centuries-old local fairy tale about the importance of weaving things together. And what a great fit that was for a topic that consumes much of our business audience today.

HOPKINS: Ad agencies are always looking for ideas in other countries. The new Moto ads from Motorola came from teenagers in Taiwan, who called their phones Motos because they can't pronounce Motorola.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HOPKINS: Ad executives predict that American ads will look a lot more like the risque Latin American and European ads in the next few years. That's thanks to cable television pushing the envelope and now pulling in bigger audiences than the networks -- Lou.

DOBBS: Those commercials featuring Richard Gere and Nicole Kidman -- the idea being that they would be overexposed in this country?

HOPKINS: If they were doing the ads here. So, they go someplace that they aren't seen as much, and they get a lot of money for it.

DOBBS: And when we explain about the oversexed approach of Madison Avenue approach these days, it's nothing compared to what the rest of the world is experiencing.

HOPKINS: Absolute. But the cultures are different, as the ad executives point out.

DOBBS: I noticed that. I noticed that, Jan. Thank you very much. Jan Hopkins.

Tomorrow we continue our series of special reports on advertising. We take a look at product placement, the subtle ways in which viewers are being manipulate the by those advertisers.

Well, it was a year ago today that President Bush signed into law what was billed as a sweeping reform of corporate America. The Sarbanes-Oxley Act was designed to stop creative accounting, unruly executives, and dishonest executives and boards, all the while stiffening penalties for misconduct. However, one year later, the effectiveness of the law is debatable.

Our corporate America criminal scoreboard shows 83 executives have been criminally charged in the 604 days since Enron filed for bankruptcy. Only one of those, Sam Waksal, has actually been sent to jail.

Joining me now to discuss the Sarbanes-Oxley legislation, its effectiveness one year later, is the man who led the fight for the bill and now law, Senator Paul Sarbanes.

Senator, good to have you with us.

SEN. PAUL SARBANES (D), MARYLAND: Thank you very much, Lou. I'm pleased to be back with you.

DOBBS: Senator, the corporate America scoreboard, criminal scoreboard that we put up every night here, shows still only one person in jail. What's your reaction to that fact after 20 months following Enron?

SARBANES: Well, I'm reminded of the old saying that the wheels of justice grind slowly, but they grind very fine. You know, there's a special task force within the executive branch, which, after all, are the ones who bring the prosecutions, headed by Larry Thompson, the deputy attorney general of the United States. And they're supposed to be pulling together in a coordinated fashion, with strong input from Washington, these various criminal investigations that are taking place across the country. I'm not, you know, privy to what they're doing and obviously shouldn't be. But it's my understanding that they're hard at work.

DOBBS: Working hard, one person in jail. That's not much to show for 604 days, is it, Senator?

SARBANES: Well, who knows what's coming down the road? I think they have to be allowed to do their work. I don't -- I have no reason to...

DOBBS: I wouldn't interfere with their work at all, Senator. I'm just saying that to this point that work hasn't produced but one person behind bars.

SARBANES: Well, I'm sure as they listen to you make that point, Lou, and follow your index every night, that that's prompting them to redouble their efforts in this arena.

DOBBS: Well, Senator, let's turn to the legislation that you were successful in bringing to law. And the law to this point, has it been as effective as you had hoped when you authored it?

SARBANES: Well, my real concern over the past year is that we get the statutory framework into place and start implementing this law. In that regard, I think we've made a very substantial progress. The Public Company Accounting Oversight Board is now fully in place. Chairman Donaldson and his colleagues at the SEC were able to get Bill McDonough, the former chairman of the New York Federal Reserve, to come be the chairman of that oversight board, which is a terrific step in and of itself. He's a person of great ability and credibility. And they're hard at work now. And they're really moving forward. They're putting their rules and regulations into place. They've begun their inspections of the four major accounting firms. You know, they've got a good work schedule. They're gearing their staff up. So I'm greatly encouraged by that.

DOBBS: You mentioned...

SARBANES: But the...

DOBBS: ... the four accounting -- excuse me, Senator. You mentioned the four accounting firms. The Public Accounting Oversight Board, which was the creation of your law, Bill McDonough stepping in, a highly respected, highly able, as you said, man, but still behind the curve because all that went before in getting that board running. Are you concerned about the consolidation of the accounting industry, a great deal of power is held now by four companies in this country?

SARBANES: Yes, we are concerned about it. And one of the provisions that was in Sarbanes-Oxley called for a study of the concentration that was taking place in the accounting industry. The date for coming back with that study has not yet been reached, but we manifested that concern when we did the legislation by commissioning this further study. It is a problem. I mean, we're down now -- it used to be the -- you know, we had the glorious eight, and now we're down to the final four.

(LAUGHTER)

DOBBS: Your co-author of the bill, Congressman Michael Oxley, has expressed his concern that perhaps the legislation has gone too far, creating a risk-adverse and cautious, if not outright afraid corporate America. Do you share those concerns?

SARBANES: Not really. And I'm not sure that -- we had a celebration event this morning at the SEC. And that question was asked, and Chairman Donaldson of the SEC made a good point. He said, there are two kinds of risk. If you're talking about regulatory risk, people ought not to take it, they need to be very careful. If you're talking about economic risk, in other words, you know, an aggressive, forward moving economic posture, that's a different situation. And I don't -- look, a lot of people went to these corporate executives, including lawyers and accountants, and they said, oh, you've really got to do a lot of things now. And they would prepare these thick booklets for them about the legislation, enough to scare anyone to death, just looking at what they were putting forth. It had a self- serving dimension to it, I think. But I think as people work through it and they come to appreciate what's required, some companies will have to make significant changes, for instance, instituting internal controls to meet the requirements of the statute. But I think they will all be better off for it. And I think then they will be able to move ahead in an aggressive economic fashion. DOBBS: Well, to the degree that you've helped corporate America discretely segregate business risk and regulatory risk, the nation's in your debt. Senator Paul Sarbanes, we thank you for being with us.

SARBANES: Thank you very much.

DOBBS: Thank you.

The hunt for two of the world's most wanted men. Mike Boettcher reports on the hunt for Osama bin Laden and Saddam Hussein.

And "Face Off." The future of the Hubble Telescope is in danger. The instrument that has brought us the most spectacular imagery from space in danger of being shut down.

And off track. A proposal to save Amtrak from failure: to put the states in charge. But can Amtrak survive without federal funds? That story and a great deal more still ahead here.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: NASA is being forced to balance the pursuit of science with the cost of that pursuit. Right now, astronomers are debating the future of the Hubble Telescope, which NASA, at this point, wants to shut down in a matter of years.

The pictures that you're looking at were collected by Hubble. They are the most spectacular imagery ever returned to us from space. Hubble has been orbiting 375 miles above Earth since 1990.

In tonight's "Face Off," two of this country's most important astronomers, Professor John Huchra of the Harvard Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics, and Professor George Rieke of the University of Arizona, discuss what's at stake for the Hubble Space Program, whether it should survive.

Professor Huchra says absolutely.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JOHN HUCHRA, CHMN., AURA BOARD OF DIRECTORS: One of the things that I've learned in doing science, and I've had a lot of fun learning it, is to ask the right questions, or at least try to ask the right question.

I think Hubble hasn't used up its usefulness. One of the very important things about HST is that we can go up and service it. And there will need to be a mission in 2009 or so to go up and bring HST down or attach propulsion modules to bring it down. We could do at that time something to extend its life and also make it more capable. If it's....

DOBBS: Just as we've done -- what? -- three or four times? That's exactly right. Every time a new instrument has been put on Hubble, interest in the scientific community goes right back up to where it was at the very beginning. New discoveries are made, new capabilities are made, or enable to allow us to keep doing our work. One more time, I think, would not be inappropriate, especially if NASA is thinking about new scenarios for bringing HST down, not just using the shuttle itself to bring the telescope down.

DOBBS: You're not so sure of that, are you, Professor Rieke?

GEORGE RIEKE, ASTRONOMY PROFESSOR, UNIVERSITY OF ARIZONA: Well, it's complicated. I guess I should say there's a plus and a minus to being able to service Hubble. Until recently I had an old Cadillac, and it was built with something we used to call planned obsolescence, where it was supposed to be serviced frequently. It was a great car to drive, but my wife kept pointing out that it was really expensive, and so is Hubble because of the need to send the shuttle up to service it over and over. The other point is that with this expense we have lived through about half the life of Hubble. If we service it one more time, which is already in the plans, it will get a total about 16 years of life out of the mission and...

DOBBS: That service point was supposed to be 2004, perhaps 2005 now with the shuttle delays now, is that correct?

RIEKE: That's correct. And each servicing is good for about four more years of life. So we won't have had a huge amount of time to get discoveries out of Hubble, and the history is that in science you make fewer dramatic discoveries and really shifts in your whole view of the universe as an observatory gets older. So we have other missions that are competing for the money that would be needed to service Hubble and keep it running for another four or five years. And so using the explorer example is a little bit like Lewis and Clark going across the prairie and deciding at Omaha they'd seen lots of prairie and they were going to stop at Omaha and start studying prairie in a lot of detail and never going on to making the discoveries that are potentially in front of us in astronomy and were in front of them in going across the nation. In astronomy we have to build new space missions with new capabilities to make those discoveries.

DOBBS: Professor Huchra doesn't look too persuaded by the Iowa metaphor.

HUCHRA: Well, I think the issue is the question that I was getting to before, which is what is the right question? If in fact you put everything in the box and close the lid and say you can only pick out one toy from the box or whatever, your conclusions are correct. However, I think part of the question before us is not just whether or not HST would be useful in trading against other missions, but what will the cost be to keep it going for a few more years and whether that cost is justified by the possibilities, the capabilities, the new science that could be done?

Unlike what George was saying about his Cadillac, I think with HST there has not been a real diminution in the rate of discovery as a function of time. And it's in part because we can update the instruments on the telescope. Another piece of the story is that you know the imaging that has come back from HST. It has become a mainstay of the way we do science in not just the field of optical and UV astronomy but others as well.

DOBBS: Professor Rieke...

HUCHRA: We stand a good chance of losing that until 2020 unless HST is kept going for a while.

DOBBS: The potential of lost science is also, I think, if I may say, Professor Rieke, what I understand the center of your concerns about stable with Hubble too long, threatening the James Webb Space Telescope, the other planned telescopes. These are the big toys that are in the wing just waiting for their chance at service in space are they not?

RIEKE: Yes. And it isn't just the James Webb, it's the whole future sequence of telescopes that explore further in the ultraviolet, further in the infrared. I guess the real point is that we have to move on. It's painful. Great discoveries have been made. But the cost of servicing Hubble which John referred to is actually not very different from if you look at the total program costs from the cost of Sertav (ph), which is the fourth of the great observatories of which Hubble is a member, which is going to be launched in hopefully about a month. So that's an entire mission with a tremendous discovery potential because it's all new technology, new detectors, radically different. And for the cost of what it would take to extend the Hubble mission another four or five years.

HUCHRA: But you can look at it another way, George, and that is that the cost of extending the Hubble mission another four or five years is less than 1 percent of the NASA overall budget over that same period of time. Is it worth or not, that's the question I think that we need to answer. And my tendency at the moment is to believe that the correct answer is yes, it is worth it, especially if we can put a new instrument on HST in 2009.

DOBBS: Gentlemen...

RIEKE: Well, John

DOBBS: Go ahead. Professor Rieke, you have the final word.

RIEKE: OK. I mean, basically, I agree. If they can get the money, then it would be great to have Hubble JWST, and three or four other missions, but we do have to set priorities. And I think that's what this exercise is all about. And I think that the new missions have to have a higher priority than Hubble.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

DOBBS: Professor George Rieke and Professor John Huchra.

Tomorrow they will join a number of other astronomers meeting with NASA in Washington to argue whether Hubble survives or not. "Tonight's Thought" is on space. "The secret of success on planet Earth is space. Lots of it. Our solar system is a tiny island of activity in an ocean of emptiness." From Paul Davies, author of "The Last Three Minutes."

The subject of "Tonight's Poll," the question, what do you think of the Hubble Space Telescope? Out of this world, worth while, outdated, or space junk.

Cast your vote at cnn.com/lou. We'll have the results later in the show.

The final results of yesterday's poll question, Do you believe the White House should declassify the 28 blacked-out pages of the September 11 report?

Eighty-four percent of you said, yes, 16 percent said, no.

Osama bin Laden, the terrorist responsible for September 11 is still at large. It's almost two years since President Bush said he wanted Osama bin Laden dead or alive.

Our national correspondent Mike Boettcher has the report.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MIKE BOETTCHER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): U.S. troops on the hunt for Saddam Hussein, missing him by just a matter of hours, we're told. They're confident they are closing in on the former Iraqi leader.

Along the Afghanistan/Pakistan border, U.S. troops on the hunt for Osama bin Laden. While visiting the area, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff expressing confidence that progress is being made in finding bin Laden.

GEN. RICHARD MYERS, JOINT CHIEFS CHAIRMAN: He's, no doubt, being very careful how he moves.

BOETTCHER: In both cases, recent successes. U.S. troops killing Saddam's sons in Iraq and Pakistani forces capturing al Qaeda's operational commander, Khalid Shaikh Mohammed. And in each manhunt, they've narrowed down the area where they're looking for their prime target. In Iraq, to an area around Baghdad and Tikrit; and with bin Laden, to areas along the Afghanistan/Pakistan border.

So why does it seem so much harder to get close to bin Laden?

KEN ROBINSON, SECURITY ANALYST: The two situations are totally different.

BOETTCHER: CNN national security analyst Ken Robinson says terrain is one reason. It is easier to go after Saddam because the area he might be in is flat, easy for troops to operate in. Not so in the area where bin Laden is believed hiding. ROBINSON: The aircraft don't have the ability to loiter over some of those targets in those lawless areas without having to go back and refuel.

BOETTCHER: Another important difference? The U.S. can't act alone in hunting bin Laden. It must rely in large part on Pakistan.

Then there's human intelligence. Not much there in the hunt for bin Laden, and no takers so far on the $25 million reward on either side of the Afghan/Pakistan border.

But Saddam Hussein is swimming in a much less loyal sea, says Robinson. And already someone has given up his sons for $30 million. Lots of people are talking right now in Iraq.

ROBINSON: The Shia being 60 -- potentially 60 percent, they have incentive to try to influence what post-war Iraq is going to look like, and many of those folks have no love lost for Saddam Hussein and are the sources of much of the human intelligence which is coming into the coalition right now.

BOETTCHER, (on camera): Another reason the trail has been much colder in the case of Osama bin Laden, military sources tell CNN that Special Operations Forces and CIA operatives needed for that job are currently in Iraq, looking for Saddam Hussein.

Mike Boettcher, CNN, Atlanta.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

DOBBS: When we continue state run Amtrak. That's what the Bush administration is proposing, to save the failing railroad. Peter Viles will have the story.

And the end of Beetle-mania. Not the musicians, the car. The last of the original bugs rolling out.

And it's called SARS-stock. It's goal, to revive Toronto's ailing economy. That story from Toronto still ahead, plus more, stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: CNN has just learned that the Los Angeles County District Attorney will retry former Inglewood police officer Jeremy Morse. Morse was videotaped slamming a teenage suspect against a patrol car and hitting him in the face.

Yesterday a judge declared a mistrial, a hung jury in his trial in Los Angeles. His partner was acquitted of falsifying a police report. Again, the L.A. District attorney will retry former police officer, Inglewood police officer Jeremy Morse.

Turning to other news tonight, it is one of the largest rock concerts in history, and it's going on right now in Toronto. The Rolling Stones headlining the concert. It's been dubbed SARS-stock. and about a half million people are expected to be there. Toronto officials are hoping, of course, the concert will help to revive its tourism, which suffered dramatic losses during the recent SARS virus outbreak. This concert could generate as much as $50 million for the city's economy.

The White House's new plan to overhaul Amtrak could run into trouble in the Senate. Two prominent Republican senators today held a news conference. They're critical of the proposal. At issue is the White House plan to shift much of the burden for Amtrak from the federal government to the state governments. Peter Viles reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

PETER VILES, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Born in 1971, Amtrak has survived six presidents, chronic deficits, and countless budget crises. But now the Bush administration is proposing a reorganization that denationalizes operations of the national railroad.

The plan is to turn operating control and decisions over to whichever states want to run their portion of an interstate national railroad. Critics say it would probably mean the end of national service.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think if you turn it over to the states you're going to run into the kind of problem where one state takes over, the other state contiguous doesn't, and so you wouldn't have a uniformity of service or you might not have service at all. I think we have to have a commitment to a national system.

SEN. TRENT LOTT (R), MISSISSIPPI: If after 2 1/2 years that's all they can come up with, they ought to be ashamed. It is a guarantee to fail. To dump it off, basically, on the states and say good luck, basically say, oh, we're going to do this like urban mass transportation, we'll help you, you know, with some of the capital costs, but then after that operating's up to you. I mean, how is this going to work?

VILES: The Bush administration says it is committed to a national system, but that doesn't necessarily mean preserving all national routes. It points out the system now works best connecting cities in the same region. The heavily traveled corridor from Washington to Boston, for example.

ALLAN RUTTER, FEDERAL RAILROAD AMINISTRATION: We believe what national rail service is is a national program which supports the provision of passenger rail service where people want to use it, where it goes places where people want to go when they want to go there.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

VILES: Amtrak itself had no comment on the Bush proposal and has to tread lightly in Washington because it's always asking for money there. It is seeking $1.8 billion in federal funds next year. The Bush administration has offered half of that, $900 million -- Lou.

DOBBS: You've got to love Washington. This is a beauty.

VILES: It is a year in, year out struggle, the degree to which the federal government wants to support a national railroad.

DOBBS: It looks like Senator Lott has got this one right. This looks like a bit of a joke.

VILES: Yes. I mean, a national railroad...

DOBBS: A bad one at that.

VILES: ... run by the states is not really a national railroad. It's a bunch of state railroads.

DOBBS: All right. Peter viles, thank you.

When we continue, the results of tonight's poll. Then Christine Romans will be here. She'll have the market for us. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: These are the results of tonight's poll question. What do you think of the hubble space telescope? Do you think it's out of this world, 39 percent said so, worthwhile 47 percent, outdated and space junk running in distant third and fourth. Good for this audience.

And not so good for the market. The major indexes today finished a little lower. Christine Romans now has the market for us, and there you have it. Those gigantic moves on the day.

CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Exactly. Three down days in a row now for the Dow and the S&P. But Lou, three down days, that's not even half of Friday's big rally, so that's some perspective.

Slightly more stocks rose than fell at the big board. Volume a light 1.3 billion shares. That has one trader telling me they should have canceled trading today. But consider this, that's quiet compared to last July's average volume of 1.8 billion. But still, Lou, it's five times more volume on a quiet day today than an average July day just 10 years ago.

Oil companies dominated the earnings news today. Many reporting sharp gains in earnings. Chevron-Texaco raised its dividend as did the shoemaker Kenneth Cole. Meanwhile, the highest bond yield since December attracted bond buyers. Bonds up for the first time today in five. The 10-year note fell to 4.31 percent. This even as the treasury said, it's going to sell a record $60 billion in new securities.

DOBBS: That's not good for those prices over there. The volume on the big board, give us the most positive metric you can on that.

ROMANS: 1.3 billion shares down 27 percent from last year, but up five times from ten years ago. That's pretty good. DOBBS: You've got to love an optimist. Christine, thanks a lot. Christine Romans with the market.

Finally tonight, the end of an era. The last original Style Volkswagen Beetle rolled off the assembly line in Puebla, Mexico today. The final Beetle to be in a museum in Wolfesburg, Germany. The car was there first developed and produced.

That's our show for tonight. Thank's for being with us. For all of us here, good night from New York. "LIVE FROM THE HEADLINES" with Anderson Cooper is next.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com





Intensifies; NASA Wants to End Hubble Program>