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Lou Dobbs Tonight
How Many Missiles are in Terrorists' Hands?; U.S. Marines Could Land in Liberia Tomorrow; Interview With John Snow
Aired August 13, 2003 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JAN HOPKINS, GUEST HOST: The global black market in terror: Hundreds of thousands of shoulder-launched missiles are in circulation. How many are in the hands of terrorists?
Tonight's "Face-Off": Liberia in chaos. Several hundred Marines could land as soon as tomorrow. Should the United States let Africans solve the crisis alone?
President Bush says the economy has turned a corner. Treasury Secretary John Snow will tell us when economic growth will produce new jobs.
And in our feature series "American Classics," baseball, America's national pastime, a sport that's more than just a game.
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT for Wednesday, August, 13. Sitting in for Lou Dobbs, Jan Hopkins.
HOPKINS: Good evening. Lou is off tonight.
Prosecutors say it's a good day for the good guys in the war on terror. Today a suspected arms dealer was arraigned on charges that he tried to sell shoulder-launched anti-aircraft missiles. Those missiles could have been used to shoot down airliners. We begin our coverage tonight with homeland security correspondent Jeanne Meserve.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHRISTOPHER CHRISTIE, U.S. ATTORNEY, DISTRICT OF NEW JERSEY: This morning, the terrorists who threatened America lost an ally in their quest to kill our citizens.
JEANNE MESERVE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Hekmat Lakhani was charged in a Newark, New Jersey, courtroom with attempting to provide material support to terrorists by allegedly selling a shoulder-fired missile. Prosecutors say Lakhani, described as a significant international arms dealer, offered the missile to an FBI informant who posed as a representative of a Somali group wanting to shoot down a U.S. commercial airliner. Government sources say U.S. law enforcement educated the informant about missiles and arms dealing to bolster his credibility. According to court documents, over a year and a half, more than 150 of his conversations with Lakhani were recorded on audio and videotape. According to court documents, Lakhani says, at one point, the buyer wanted the missiles for "the anniversary," presumed to be a reference to 9/11. Lakhani is described as willing, even eager to close a deal.
CHRISTIE: He on many occasions in reported conversations referred to Americans as bastards, Osama bin laden as a hero who had done something right and set the Americans straight.
MESERVE: Government sources say the U.S. paid for the dummy SA- 18 shoulder-fired missile which Russian undercover agents provided to Lakhani. Lakhani wanted to broker the sale of 50 more and asked the Russians about obtaining multi-ton quantities of C-4 plastic explosives, as well, according to court documents. Two other men have been charged in connection with the money side of the transaction. Law enforcement hopes these arrests will lead to others.
MICHAEL GARCIA, BUREAU OF IMMIGRATION AND CUSTOMS ENFORCEMENT: And we're always looking to develop further information, continue on with the case. A case like this, a major transaction, law enforcement will analyze every aspect of it.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MESERVE: Lakhani's lawyers have had no comment. Law enforcement is calling this an important case because of the international cooperation that helped crack it and the danger of the weapon involved. But experts caution there are a lot more shoulder-fired missiles, arms dealers and potential buyers out there. Jan, back to you.
HOPKINS: Jeanne, it is significant, though, there was so much international cooperation to get, as some said, the bad guy.
MESERVE: Absolutely because this is very much an international problem. The Bush administration has been trying to move internationally to stop the flow of these weapons from legitimate military organizations into the hands of terrorists. They've even started buy-back programs in some places. Probably of particular significance that this cooperation was with Russia, in this case. Ever since the breakup of the Soviet Union, there has been concern about loose weapons. Jan, back to you.
HOPKINS: Jeanne Meserve, thanks very much.
About 750,000 shoulder-launched anti-aircraft missiles are in circulation around the world. Hundreds are believed to be in the hands of terrorists. National security correspondent David Ensor joins me now -- David.
DAVID ENSOR, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Well, Jan, most of those thousands of "man pads (ph)" or shoulder-launched missiles, are in safe hands. But as you say, there are hundreds of shoulder-launched missiles that are believed by U.S. intelligence and others to be in the hands of terrorists. Most of those are the less reliable SA-7, Russian-made version, the kind that al Qaeda used unsuccessfully in Mombasa, Kenya, last year against an Israeli airliner. They tried to shoot it down, and they failed.
But some are the more sophisticated Russian SA-18. With infrared technology, it's considered far more deadly. And that was the weapon involved in this FBI sting. The Russians call this weapon, the SA-18, the Igla. And according to Jane's Information Group, it has a two- kilogram warhead. That's quite small. Experts say the missiles are designed to shoot down helicopters and small planes, not big airliners, and that if fired on a four-engine plane, such a heat- seeking warhead could only take out one of the engines.
Still, these weapons -- and they're small enough to fit in a golf club bag -- are now considered a threat to U.S. national security -- Jan.
HOPKINS: And a threat to airlines and corporate jets, as well, right? I mean, you're talking about very small planes.
ENSOR: well, small planes are certainly threatened by this particular device. And if multiple shoulder-launched missiles were fired on a large airline, it could bring them down.
HOPKINS: David Ensor, thanks very much.
The State Department tonight issued a new travel warning for Saudi Arabia. It warned U.S. citizens to postpone unnecessary travel to Saudi Arabia because of the risk of further terrorist attacks. Earlier British Airways suspended flights to Saudi Arabia because of security concerns. Those undisclosed concerns relate to British Airways flights to the capital, Riyadh. British Airways says its services will resume as soon as possible.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEOFF WANT, SECURITY DIRECTOR, BRITISH AIRWAYS: We have been given advice which makes us cautious and believe it appropriate and prudent for us to suspend operations until we can be assured it's safe for us to operate.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HOPKINS: In Saudi Arabia today, authorities in Riyadh said that five radical Islamists were arrested after a shoot-out with police this week. But seven suspects are still at large.
Terrorists in Iraq killed a U.S. soldier near Baghdad today. The military also announced the death of another soldier in a bomb attack yesterday. Sixty U.S. troops have died from hostile fire in Iraq since the president announced the end of major combat on May 1. Pentagon correspondent Chris Plante has the latest -- Chris.
CHRIS PLANTE, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Jan. One more U.S. soldier was killed in an ambush today with what the military describes as an improvised explosive device. Their armored personnel carrier ran the device over in an area north of Baghdad, in what the Pentagon now calls the "Ba'athist triangle," the area where many Saddam loyalists remain and where much of the violence against coalition troops has taken place. This brings to a total now of 176 U.S. troops that have been killed by hostile fire since the beginning of the war and 60 since President Bush declared an end to major combat hostilities -- Jan.
HOPKINS: What is the Pentagon saying about the possibility of sending Marines into Liberia?
PLANTE: Well, we learned here this afternoon that in addition to the nearly 100 Marines that are on the ground there now, primarily providing security at the embassy, 200 more Marines will go in tomorrow to back up Nigerian peacekeeping forces there with the East African -- the West African peacekeeping unit there. The expectation is that about 150 combat Marines will go in and provide backup -- and only backup -- to the Nigerian forces, as the Nigerian forces move from the airport to the seaport, where they will attempt to drive the last remnants of rebel forces out. Navy SEALs will clear the waters near the port and, hopefully, clear the way for the beginning of the flow of humanitarian aid into the war-torn country -- Jan.
HOPKINS: Thanks, Chris Plante at the Pentagon.
It was a deadly day of violence in Afghanistan. It was the worst in more than a year, in fact. At least 15 people died when a suspected Taliban bomb exploded in a bus in the southern part of the country. Another 25 people were killed in tribal fighting southwest of Kabul. And the government says its troops killed 16 Taliban and al Qaeda gunmen southeast of the capital.
A warning today about more possible bomb attacks against Western targets in Indonesia. The U.S. ambassador in Indonesia told Americans living there that more attacks were likely after the bombing of the Marriott Hotel in Jakarta. He said the targets could include clubs, restaurants, shopping centers and schools.
The United States is also focusing on another crisis in Asia, the nuclear standoff with North Korea. Two senior officials in Washington said the United States may offer incentives to North Korea if it dismantles its nuclear program. Those incentives could include a written guarantee that the United States has no intention of attacking North Korea.
From national security to economic security, President Bush today said the tax cuts already in place will be enough to increase economic growth. Today, the president met his economic team at his ranch in Crawford, Texas. And White House correspondent Suzanne Malveaux joins us from near the ranch -- Suzanne.
SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Jan, President Bush wants another four years. He made the argument, the case today that, yes, he believes the economy is on the upswing. He also argued that it was not this administration's fault. He wants voters to know that it was not his administration's fault for the decline, for the recession. He said it began in March of 2000, when the stock market declined, that he inherited the recession the following year. He said it was because of his massive tax cut, that $1.35 trillion tax cut actually helped slow that recession. But then the country was hit by 9/11, corporate scandal. And then, he says, it was a march to war. It started a year ago, during his summer vacation at the Crawford ranch, a sense of anxiety that consumers and buyers had to invest and sell because of the anticipation of the war to come.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE WALKER BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: War's not exactly a positive thought, particularly when it comes to people, you know, willing to take risk and consumer confidence. But nevertheless, we dealt with that issue. And so -- and so now the economy is -- having overcome those obstacles, is beginning to recover. And yes, I think people are going to go back to work. And I strongly believe that what we have done was the absolute right course of action in order to help people find a job.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MALVEAUX: The Bush administration is very much aware that this is a top issue when it comes to the reelection. Fifty-seven percent -- a Pew Research Center poll shows that it is the top presidential priority for most voters. And again, the administration facing criticism not only from Democrats but also economists. They point to the three million jobs lost during Bush's tenure. They talk about the $455 billion federal deficit. And the most important thing, they say, is the long-term effect of that deficit, the question of whether or not the government is going to be able to pay out for Social Security, for Medicaid and Medicare when those Baby Boomers retire -- Jan.
HOPKINS: Thanks, Suzanne Malveaux, near the Crawford White House. Thanks.
Later in the show, we'll speak with Treasury Secretary John Snow about the administration's plans for the economy and jobs.
And also ahead tonight, the recall free-for-all. California's list of perspective candidates reads like the cover of a supermarket tabloid. Senior political analyst Bill Schneider will report.
And then "Face-Off." Should the U.S. send military forces into Liberia? Lisa Sylvester reports on past U.S. military efforts in Africa. And then two leading experts will face off.
And batter up. "American classics," our feature series, continues tonight with baseball. Peter Viles will have the story, and Hall of Fame manager Tommy Lasorda will be our special guest.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HOPKINS: One hundred thirty-one candidates for governor and counting. The California recall ballot is taking final shape tonight. Election officials will soon announce just how much candidates are certified to run. Meanwhile, Arnold Schwarzenegger has added more muscle to his campaign. Billionaire investor Warren Buffett will serve as Arnold's unpaid economic adviser. Schwarzenegger calls Buffett his hero. Former president Bill Clinton become has reportedly been offering campaign advice to Governor Gray Davis. And Green Party member Ralph Nader was pied in the face as he endorsed his fellow party member, Peter Camejo. All of this makes for great television, and it certainly adds to the circus-like atmosphere surrounding the recall race. It is also having another effect. Voters in the Golden State are suddenly paying attention to politics. Bill Schneider reports from Los Angeles.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
WILLIAM SCHNEIDER, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST (voice-over): Porn stars, movie actors, smut peddlers running for governor. Even comedians are dismayed.
BILL MAHER, HOST, HBO'S "REAL TIME WITH BILL MAHER": This is not what the Founding Fathers had in mind when they founded this republic. One of their greatest fears was putting too much power in the hands of the howling masses.
SCHNEIDER: For years, the masses in California have been howling -- with boredom. Involvement in politics has been dwindling. In 1966, when Ronald Reagan got elected governor, 79 percent of those registered voted. When Jerry Brown won in 1974, 64 percent. Pete Wilson's election in 1990 brought out 59 percent. Last year, just over 50 percent turned out for Gray Davis's reelection. The media responded by not paying much attention. The joke: TV news wouldn't cover a political debate unless the candidates got in a freeway chase.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He starts moving from lane to lane and is mainly staying over there to the left lane...
SCHNEIDER: But now, suddenly, all that apathy and cynicism seem to be turning around.
JILL STEWART, SYNDICATED POLITICAL COLUMNIST: I notice the East Coast media has been using the term "chaos" -- chaos and confusion, chaos and confusion. But California voters aren't finding that much chaos. They're enjoying the stories.
SCHNEIDER: Apparently, now the recall is getting equal billing with crime.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A judge in San Francisco rules that a convicted child molester must go free this week.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And Governor Davis lays out his plan for the days leading to the recall election.
SCHNEIDER: There's an explosion of public interest in politics. Last year, two months before the election for governor, 24 percent of California voters said they were very interested in the campaign. Right now, 71 percent say they are very or extremely interested.
ALEX BEN BLOCK, EDITOR, "TELEVISION WEEK": People in California, who usually just don't care, and too blase about the whole thing, suddenly become involved, excited, talking about which candidate, laughing, crying, you know, jumping on bandwagons, jumping off bandwagons. SCHNEIDER: You can see it in the breathless local coverage. Sure, it's the prospect of electing a movie star. But it's something else, too: angry voters taking power into their own hands. It's called democracy.
BLOCK: We have a democracy, and democracy only works when people get involved. And right now, California is a boiling cauldron of democracy.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SCHNEIDER: A boiling cauldron of democracy. That's democracy on the people's own terms. And that may be what it takes to get Americans engaged in politics again, Jan.
HOPKINS: Let's talk a little bit about advisers to Arnold Schwarzenegger. Pete Wilson, a former governor -- doe that help or will he actually hurt Schwarzenegger?
SCHNEIDER: Well, it's become a source in the important Latino community here in California because Pete Wilson is a figure that has been much criticized. In fact, to some extent, I think he -- I can describe him as hated in the Latino community. When he ran for reelection in 1994, he supported a proposition that passed that denied public services to illegal immigrants. The courts later threw it out. But they deeply resent Wilson's role. They claim it was racist. They claim he targeted them. And when you watch the local media here in Los Angeles, there's a bigger audience for Spanish-language news broadcasts than there is for English news broadcasts. And Wilson's face is all over those news broadcasts as the co-chairman of the Schwarzenegger campaign. That could cost Schwarzenegger some important support in the Latino community.
HOPKINS: But Warren Buffett as an adviser -- that could actually help, couldn't it?
SCHNEIDER: That could help because, you know, one of the vulnerabilities that people have talked about on Schwarzenegger's part is, is he credible as governor of the nation's -- the world's fifth largest economy, the nation's largest state? Does he know what he's doing? Can he run things? Well, you know, Buffett is a very credible financial whiz. He's an old friend of Schwarzenegger's. And in the statement that Schwarzenegger just released -- you cited it before -- Schwarzenegger said, "Warren is helping me bring together a world- class team to assist me in addressing the problems and challenges faces California." Well, what he's doing is saying, You know, you want to know my positions on the issues? I have Warren Buffett here. He's going to help me run the state of California and straighten out this state's disastrous finances. That's pretty credible.
HOPKINS: Bill Schneider, thanks.
Coming up: Thousands of U.S. troops are off the coast of Africa. In tonight's "Face-Off," two leading experts will share their opposing views on the American role in Liberia. And then: The president's economic team meets in Crawford. We'll speak with Treasury Secretary John Snow on the administration's plans to put Americans back to work.
And the heat wave across Europe is having a dramatic effect on a very famous landscape.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HOPKINS: As you know, we take a look at the national debt every night here, and a new poll finds about three quarters of Americans are concerned about the federal budget deficit. "The Washington Post" poll found that 73 percent of those surveyed said the deficit's a problem, 23 percent said it's not a problem. And when asked whether President Bush bears responsibility for the deficit, 52 percent said he bears at least a good amount of responsibility. And that's up from 42 percent in January of last year.
Earlier, I spoke with Treasury Secretary John Snow and asked him if he thought the deficit posed a significant problem for the economy.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHN SNOW, TREASURY SECRETARY: I think the deficit's too large. It's manageable, but it's unwelcome and it's worrisome. And that's why the president has made the commitment to cut it in half over the course of the next five years.
HOPKINS: And that will be an improving economy, basically, helping out, get rid of the deficit. Also we have a lot of war costs. Will those go away in five years?
SNOW: Well, yes, you're absolutely right. What will help bring the deficit down is a stronger economy, which will generate more governmental revenues through taxes, and tight spending controls. We can never forget the importance of spending controls. And the president has suggested that spending be tightly controlled, not to exceed 4 percent. And that combination of a growing economy with a rising tax base, more governmental revenues and tight spending controls, will bring that deficit down over the course of the next few years.
HOPKINS: You know, about 30 percent of Americans say that the economy is the No. 1 issue, at this point. Will that go away by the presidential election next year?
SNOW: Well, I think the economy is always on people's minds, and properly so because there are few things more important than the economic outlook, than having a job and having the disposable income that comes with the job and having the dignity that comes with the job. So no, I think concern about jobs, concern about the economy will always be important considerations. But a year from now, I think we're going to see a much better economy and far less apprehension. I'd expect to see much higher growth rates in the economy. I'd expect to see millions of Americans returning to work. I'd expect to see the unemployment rates coming down. And that will deal with the apprehension that people feel when unemployment numbers are going up and when the economy isn't growing.
HOPKINS: At this point, though, since the president has taken office, more than three million jobs have been lost. Jobs are definitely on the minds of Americans. And it's not only because of the recession, but also a lot of jobs are being exported overseas, including high tech jobs and Wall Street jobs. Does the administration have some kind of plan to stop the exporting of jobs?
SNOW: Well, sure. The first place to start is to get the domestic economy, the U.S. economy performing closer to its full potential. And that's why the president is behind this major initiative. That's why the president proposed this major initiative, his jobs and growth bill. So we start with a stronger domestic economy, and that's going to create a lot of additional jobs and a lot of additional jobs in manufacturing.
But in addition, we have to encourage the rest of the world to grow faster. And I -- I'll be doing that. I've done that in my travels to Europe. I will be doing it in travels to Japan and in China early next month. In addition, we need to deal with some of the burdens on American manufacturers -- a costly tort liability system that imposes unnecessary costs on producers. We need to reduce health care costs. When you talk to business people, their No. 1 concern is the rise of health care costs. We have to address that problem.
HOPKINS: Thanks very much, John Snow, the treasury secretary, joining us from Crawford, Texas.
SNOW: Thank you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HOPKINS: Tonight's quote comes from Newark, New Jersey, where a British man was charged in the missile-smuggling case. Quote, "the president has made clear we're in an ongoing war against terrorism, and today the good guys won a battle in that war," end quote. That's from U.S. attorney Christopher Christie.
And when we come back, "Face-Off." Should the United States send more troops to Liberia? We will be joined by experts on both sides of that issue.
And then our feature series, "American Classics." Tonight baseball. Peter Viles has the story, and Hall of Famer Tommy Lasorda will be our guest from Ogden, Utah, the home of the minor league Ogden Raptors.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HOPKINS: As Chris Plante reported from the Pentagon tonight, another 200 U.S. troops could soon move ashore into Liberia. The Pentagon says that the troops would assist West African peacekeepers. They're expected to take over the port of Monrovia from rebels tomorrow. Thousands of Liberians looted the port today, taking food and supplies. Humanitarian workers are waiting to deliver more food to Monrovia, once the peacekeepers arrive. As U.S. forces remain on standby off the coast of Liberia, many continue to question whether the United States should commit any troops to the war-torn nation. Opponents cite a powerful and lingering image, the murder of 18 soldiers 10 years ago in Somalia. Those who argue U.S. involvement say it's a moral obligation and a humanitarian need. Lisa Sylvester reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LISA SYLVESTER, CNNfn CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): During the Cold War, the United States funneled millions of dollars to pro- Western rebel groups and governments to keep countries from falling into Communist hands. But after the collapse of the Soviet Union, Africa's strategic importance diminished. Civil war broke out in several countries, as dictatorships propped up by the two sides began to crumble. In December, 1992, American soldiers headed a team of multinational forces in Somalia, where the fighting was particularly brutal. It ended badly. 18 American soldiers were killed. Their bodies dragged through the streets.
STEPHEN MORRISON, CTR. FOR STRATEGIC AND INTERNATIONAL STUDIES: It really poisoned the debate and it set Africa aside as a zone into which you didn't venture with U.S. troops.
SYLVESTER: For the last decade U.S. support has been limited to training African soldiers and helping pay for U.N. peacekeeping missions in Sierra Leone, the Democratic Republic of the Congo, Ethiopia and Eritrea. This year alone the U.S. will spend $350 million but the United States has maintained a hands-off policy, refusing to get directly involved even when 800,000 were killed in the Rwanda genocide in 1994.
BILL DURCH, HENRY L. STIMSON CENTER: As a result of the Somali problem and the failure to react in Rwanda, there has been kind of I think set up a sense that the United States and developed countries in general don't really care enough about conflict in Africa.
SYLVESTER: But 9/11 changed things. Africa's importance to the United States has increased because of its oil resources and its potential as a breeding ground for terrorism.
WILLIAM ZARTMAN, JOHNS HOPKINS UNIVERSITY: September 11 has made the United States more aware of Africa and more concerned about Africa as a security problem particularly in east Africa, where al Qaeda has operated.
SYLVESTER: The most well known attacks were the 1998 U.S. embassy bombings in Tanzania and Kenya.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SYLVESTER: That's the reason late last year the United States began sending American troops to the horn of Africa. There are now more than 1,800 troops helping fight the war on terrorism -- Jan.
HOPKINS: Thanks, Lisa Sylvester in Washington. The debate about whether to send troops into Liberia is at the center of tonight's face off. George Ayittey is an economist at American University and he's also president of the Free Africa Foundation. He says what Africa needs from the United States is straight talk and tough love, not a military presence. And Princeton Lyman is a senior fellow with the council on foreign relations. He says the United States needs to send a significant number of troops into Liberia. Thank you both for being with us.
And George, let me ask you first, why do you think that Africa needs to go it alone?
GEORGE AYITTEY, ECONOMIST, AMERICAN UNIVERSITY: It's because we have crisis in several African countries. You may remember that Somalia's blown up, we have the crisis in Burundi, Congo, Ivory Coast, and so forth. And for a long time we've been trying to get our leaders to get off their ya-yas and to craft solutions for their problems.
Time and time again, each time there is a crisis in Africa, they appeal to the international community without doing anything. Finally we have been able to get them to cobble together a peacekeeping force for Liberia. So they should be allowed, given the opportunity or the chance for that operation to work in Liberia without necessarily inserting the U.S. troops in there.
HOPKINS: Ambassador Lyman, you were ambassador in Nigeria and also South Africa. Why do you think that U.S. troops should be involved and it shouldn't just be African troops?
PRINCETON LYMAN, FMR. AMBASSADOR TO NIGERIA, SOUTH AFRICA: Well, Africa is not very much different from other crisis places in the world. You recall in the 1980s, we originally said the Balkans is a European problem, let them handle it. But they were too close to it and they were divided. Eventually we had to become engaged. In Africa the Africans are doing a lot. They're leading the political process on Liberia but in terms of bringing stability to that situation quickly a presence on the ground of American troops would be dramatic and would help the political process and provide a good deal of guidance and direction for the west African peacekeeping force.
HOPKINS: But what do you say to the argument that American troops are overcommitted? We're already in Afghanistan. We're already in Iraq.
LYMAN: Well, first of all we have 2,000 troops sitting off the coast of Liberia, they're not available elsewhere. The question is how do we deploy them and use them there.
Beyond that, in almost all these crises, there's a cooperative international requirement. We have 29 countries helping us in Iraq and we're asking for more. We didn't get asked to go into the Congo, others did. The French, the British, the Belgians. We didn't go into Sierra Leone, we weren't asked. We didn't go to Cote d'Ivoire.
There are times that we are asked to take a leading roll and in other cases to help out others. And when we go in a leading role, we ask others to help us. It has to be a cooperative effort. In each situation, you have to look at the country that has both the best political entree and the military capability in that situation.
HOPKINS: Professor Ayittey, there are already going to be American troops arriving in Liberia, a small number. Why not commit more?
AYITTEY: Well, that's understandable that everybody wants to stop the carnage and the horrible humanitarian situation, but we need long-term solutions, not band-aid solutions. And look it, the problem that we have in Liberia is not confined within that country alone. It is the entire west African region which has been destabilized. Therefore we need a west African solution to this crisis.
Now, currently there are peace talks in Ghana. That should be allowed to work itself out. And therefore, I don't think we should be second guessing whether the African peacekeepers are trying to do for their region.
HOPKINS: Ambassador, what's your response to what the professor's been arguing?
LYMAN: Well, I certainly support the west African political process that they are engaged in in Ghana. And I agree that the west Africans must deal with the broader stability problems in west Africa. But you can't have a political process that will be successful if warlords are fighting it out on the ground in Liberia.
This is a situation in which we can help stabilize the situation and lend very strong support to that political process. It's not logical to say that the political process can go on in the next country while warlords are fighting it out on the ground. If we had brought in sufficient forces early on to the situation we could have helped stabilize this situation even earlier.
HOPKINS: Professor?
LYMAN: Well, I think it's all well said and done, but at the same time let's not forget that we have other crises in Burundi and Congo. Is my colleague going to ask for the insertion of American troops in the Congo or Burundi? I mean, look it, like I said, we need long-term solutions to this. And finally we should be able to craft -- and that's what we've been trying to do for west Africa -- craft a west African solution, a long-term solution.
Liberia is a failed state. And the ECOWAS countries need to take over that. Declare a treasteship (ph) over Liberia. Run it for 5 years. Build up the institutions in the country. Provide water, electricity and basic services before handing it over to the Liberians to run in terms of holding free and fair elections. Because the rebels are no different from Charles Taylor. We need to take a very serious look at the situation in Liberia.
HOPKINS: Ambassador, other west African countries taking over Liberia? What do you think about that? LYMAN: Well, I do think there needs to be an important international oversight of Liberia politics and its administration for some time. Whether it's done by the west African states, or by the U.N. as was done in East Timor and has been done in Kosovo is something that needs to be decided in the negotiations now going on in Ghana between the west African states, the Liberians and the U.N.
But let me comment on George's comment about elsewhere in Africa. We haven't been asked to send troops into the Congo and I don't think we need to send them. But we do support other countries doing so. The same is true in Burundi. And Africans are in the lead in peace processes in both places. The question is where it is appropriate for the U.S., like we sent troops into the Philippines because we have a long history there. In Liberia, we are the logical country to help out.
HOPKINS: I have a last question for both of you. And that is, what about the war on terror? Is that a reason why U.S. troops ought to be in west Africa? Professor, you first, and then the ambassador.
AYITTEY: Well, I think stability in west African region would be good for everybody including the U.S. because west Africa, the strategic importance of west Africa, is becoming increasingly apparent because of west Africa, the Gulf of Guinea has large reserves of oil. And if we have stability in the region, we can develop that. It would be beneficial for all sides. But let me also add that --
HOPKINS: Let's get final thoughts from the ambassador.
AYITTEY: Okay.
HOPKINS: Ambassador?
LYMAN: Just on your question on terrorism, we already know from evidence that al Qaeda exploited the situation in Sierra Leone and Liberia by engaging in the illicit diamond trade. They're doing the same in the Congo.
So, we do have a security interest. Failed states with precious resources open the door to terrorist exploitation. That's a lesson we've learned and we should be more proactive in this situation to get that situation under control.
HOPKINS: Thank you both for facing off. Princeton Lyman and George Ayittey.
We'd like to hear what you think about this very important issue. Our poll question tonight is "how many U.S. forces should help keep the peace in Liberia? 0-200, 200-2,300, 2,300-8,000, or more than 8,000 -- actually that's 5,000." It's not 8,000. Cast your vote at cnn.com/lou and we'll bring you preliminary results later in the show.
Now the final results of yesterday's poll. We asked, "Under what conditions should the attorney-client privilege be abolished? Eight percent of you said white collar crime; 11 percent said public safety; 24 percent said national security and 57 percent said never. Still to come, there's nothing more American than baseball. In our series, "American Classics" Peter Viles takes a look at the national pastime. And hall of fame manager Tommy Lasorda will join us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HOPKINS: Tonight, we continue our series of features on "American Classics." Tonight, a look at baseball. The game has provided Americans with countless memories for more than 150 summers.
Peter Viles reports on why the national pastime still has a powerful grip on the country.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
(SINGING)
PETER VILES, CNNfn CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): What makes baseball our national pastime? Why do we still love a game that's old and kind of slow? But let's face it, some of it is nostalgia.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This field, this game, it's a part of our past, Ray. It reminds us of all that once was good.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hey, is this heaven?
KEVIN COSTNER, ACTOR: No. It's Iowa.
VILES: Even without Hollywood's help, baseball has a glorious past. When we needed heroes, baseball gave us Babe Ruth, Lou Gehrig's unforgettable farewell.
LOU GEHRIG, BASEBALL PLAYER: Today, I consider myself the luckiest man on the face of the Earth.
VILES: And when we needed to laugh, baseball helped.
LOU COSTELLO, COMEDIAN: Who's on first, what's on second, I don't know is on third.
BUD ABBOTT, COMEDIAN: You know the guys names in the baseball game. Who's on first?
COSTELLO: Yes.
ABBOTT: I mean, the guy's name.
COSTELLO: Who.
ABBOTT: The guy playing first base.
COSTELLO: Who.
ABBOTT: The guy on first base.
COSTELLO: Who.
ABBOTT: The guy on first base.
COSTELLO: Who is on first.
ABBOTT: What are you asking me for? I don't know.
VILES: Even rock 'n' roll celebrates baseball's olden days.
(MUSIC)
VILES: But baseball's not a museum piece. It's a game. It's living history -- 78 million people have been to a pro game this summer, 2.5 million kids play Little League. You think baseball's over the hill? Well, try telling these kids.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The fun about it is winning, bubblegum and free food.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hitting the grand slam when you're down by 3 with a full count and two outs.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Pressure.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Getting dirt, man. Nothing better. Getting better.
VILES (on camera): Just try to imagine America without baseball. Think of all the things that baseball has given us that we take for granted. The slump, the rally, the comeback, the double play, the grand slam. Baseball gave us Astroturf. If we didn't have baseball in America, we wouldn't have baseball caps.
(voice-over): Baseball's a window into American life. You want four words that capture America's can-do spirit?
Listen to this.
(MUSIC)
VILES: John Fogerty wrote that song about an American hero, the underdog.
JOHN FOGERTY, ROCK STAR: It's a guy coming up. It's not an old timer that's been around forever. It's a new kid, a rookie. That's what baseball and life itself is all about, really. There's this renewal all the time.
VILES: Baseball bridges the generations. Maybe your grandfather saw Lou Gehrig play. Well, you saw Cal Ripken.
CAL RIPKEN, BASEBALL GREAT: When I was linked with Lou Gehrig, it made a lot of people think and forget about the big business of baseball and about the money and about free agents and all that kind of stuff. They started to look at it as baseball again. And when you focus on what happens between the white lines, it's a really great game.
VILES: And if you want to know why baseball has it over football, watch the hats.
TIM MCCARVER, RETIRED BALLPLAYER: You never see any football players who don't wear baseball caps on the sidelines. And you would be hard pressed to find a baseball player relaxing in a dugout with a football helmet on.
VILES: Peter Viles, CNN, Brooklyn, New York.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HOPKINS: Joining us now is a former manager of the Los Angeles Dodgers and hall of famer Tommy Lasorda. He's joining us from Ogden, Utah, which is home of the Minor League Ogden Raptors, in a place where he managed a Minor League team a mere 37 summers ago.
Why is baseball such an American classic? Did Pete have it right, it's all about the caps?
TOMMY LASORDA, SENIOR VICE PRESIDENT, LOS ANGELES DODGERS: No, I think baseball is America's game, Jan. It's played by everybody.
You know, to play football, you got to be big and strong. And basketball, you got to be tall and maybe quick. But baseball, everybody can play the game, no matter what side you are. It's the greatest game. It's the common denominator, brings so many people together.
And I don't believe when one person said it was a slow game. It isn't a slow game. It's a fast game. It's a game of skill and quickness and the ability to execute. That's what makes baseball so great.
And here I am sitting in Ogden, Utah, where I managed here in 1966, '67 and '68. And I enjoyed it so much because I was taking youngsters coming out of high school and colleges and making them believe that they could play in Dodger Stadium.
HOPKINS: A lot of the excitement, a lot of the underdogs are in Minor League baseball, not so much in the professional games. How do you get that excitement from the minor leagues and from, you know, from the kids into the stadiums?
LASORDA: Well, what do you mean by that, Jan?
HOPKINS: Well, a lot of people have raised questions about you know, the number of people that haven't gone to games, tickets being, you know, more expensive, year after year. What's your sense of the health of the game, especially the professional part?
LASORDA: Well, we just played a weekend with the Chicago Cubs. We had 50-some thousand in three games. And we played the Angels, where a full house. We went to Anaheim. They filled the park. People are still going to the game because baseball is the game. You take a guy who works hard all week trying to raise a family and earn a living. He needs an escape with that family. He needs an escape with that family. He need to go somewhere, whether it's to the movies or the picnic or the parade ground or the amusement park. Well, what greater place can a family of five go to what I call beautiful Dodger Stadium, blue heaven on Earth, and watch baseball at its best and buy five general admission tickets for maybe $25 or so. Try to buy five tickets to an NFL game or NBA game for that kind of money. That's why baseball is the greatest sport in this country.
HOPKINS: How can you continue to make the sport grow and be satisfying for generations to come? Are there changes that need to be made maybe in the number of teams, for example?
LASORDA: No, I think what changes, if we need to make any, is to create parity in baseball, where every team can go to spring training and say, we have an opportunity to get into the fall classic.
Right now that is not in our game because there are these low market teams who are not getting the income and are not able to sign the players like the big market team. What we need is parity in baseball, and if we get that, that will be the greatest thing to happen to our game in a long time.
HOPKINS: You thinking about running for governor in California? You're from that state. A lot of other people put their hat in the ring. I guess it's too late to sign up right?
LASORDA: I saw in "USA Today" when they started talking about sports people getting involved in running for governor, and they had my name in there. And it said I was a 7-5 choice to win if I did get into it. But I want to be in baseball. That's my life. I love this game, Jan.
HOPKINS: Thanks very much. Tommy Lasorda, thanks for joining us.
Tonight's spot is on the national pastime -- thanks for being here.
Baseball, it is said, is only a game. True. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole in Arizona. That's from columnist and author of several books on baseball, George F. Will.
And when we return, the Swiss Alps are disappearing. Extreme heat is turning these mountains into lakes. That story and more next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HOPKINS: Temperatures in Europe moderated a little today, but elderly people suffering from heat-related illnesses are still filling Paris hospitals. Uncontrolled forest fires continue to burn across the continent. Three villages in Portugal are now threatened by the flames. The hot temperatures in Europe are even being felt in the Swiss Alps. Glaciers there have shrunk to sizes not seen in 150 years.
Ralitsa Vassileva has this report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
RALITSA VASSILEVA, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): In addition to the toll its taking on humans, Europe's record heat wave is now beginning to affect Switzerland's glaciers. It was five degrees Celsius at the top of the 3,900 meter glacier Tuesday. The unusually high temperatures are changing the landscape of the glaciers. Creating a waterfall, even a small lake. But more melting is the last thing local scientists and residents want to see. They fear it could lead to mudslides and flash flooding.
CHALY WUILLOUD, NATURAL RISKS SECTION VALAIS STATE (through translator): Over the last 15 to 20 years we've regularly lost 1 to 1.5 meters a year through ice melts. And to reconstitute this, we would need in the space of five years, 40 to 50 meters of fresh snow each year.
VASSILEVA: Expert assist the record high temperatures from worsened the trend of glacier retreat. Some blame this on global warming. Now the latest heat wave could aggravate what is already a major concern for them.
Ralita Vassileva, CNN.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HOPKINS: When we return the preliminary results of "Tonight's Poll" and a look at some of "Your Thoughts."
Then drivers beware. Cops in one small town are luring drivers into a trap. But AAA is helping those behind the wheel. That story and a great deal more.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HOPKINS: Now the preliminary results of "Tonight's Poll. The question, how many U.S. Forces should help keep the peace in Liberia. Most of you, 45 percent said 0 to 200.
Now to stocks, the Dow broke a five-session winning streak falling 38 points. Nasdaq lost loss less than a point. And the S&P also fell.
Christine Romans is here with the market.
CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNNfn CORRESPONDENT: Jan, it was quiet sell- off. About 15 percent less volume at the big board than the three- month average. A bit of conundrum for stock investors. July retail sales were strong, 1.4 percent. June sales were revised higher. Wal- Mart posted double digit percent gains. But that economic strength pushed bonds higher. And derailed a five day winning streak for the Dow and the S&P 500. Still some perspective, though, markets are holding on to that spring rally. The Dow was up 11.2 percent this year, barely off its 52-week high. The Nasdaq is ups 26.3 percent. S&P 500 up almost 12 percent. The Caterpillar, International Paper, 3M, all of them hitting intraday 52-week highs. The semiconductor stocks were also strong. The biggest weakness for the Dow came from drug stocks, after a European company one permission to market a cholesterol drug that will compete with some of the U.S. companies -- Jan.
HOPKINS: Thanks Christine.
Now a look at some of "Your Thoughts."
Many of you wrote about the difference between veterans's benefits and those serving their country on Capitol Hill.
Gail Rubio of Brea, California said, "Congress, with all it's hangers-on including the White House and cabinet, looks after itself first. Veterans should top the list of those receiving the best medical care available. We give billions to other nations. What happened to charity begins at home?"
And Miranda from Panama City, Florida said, "All the military access to the same benefits that other federal employees enjoy. Treat our heroes like the first-class people thy are, and recognize the sacrifices they and their families make in defense of this country. We owe our brave military members and their families no less."
We love hearing from you. You can e-mail us at any time at loudobbs@cnn.com.
And finally tonight, speed traps can be cash cows for small towns. And they're a major pain for out of town drivers. Now, AAA has put up a pair of billboards outside the town of Waldo, Florida. The billboards warn drivers to slow down for the town's speed traps. Local police who wrote more than 5,000 tickets during a recent four- month period are said to be upset by those signs.
That's our show tonight. Thanks for joining us. Tomorrow in our features series, "American Classics," a look at a literary legend Huckle Berry Fin.
For all of us here good night from New York.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Could Land in Liberia Tomorrow; Interview With John Snow>
Aired August 13, 2003 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JAN HOPKINS, GUEST HOST: The global black market in terror: Hundreds of thousands of shoulder-launched missiles are in circulation. How many are in the hands of terrorists?
Tonight's "Face-Off": Liberia in chaos. Several hundred Marines could land as soon as tomorrow. Should the United States let Africans solve the crisis alone?
President Bush says the economy has turned a corner. Treasury Secretary John Snow will tell us when economic growth will produce new jobs.
And in our feature series "American Classics," baseball, America's national pastime, a sport that's more than just a game.
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT for Wednesday, August, 13. Sitting in for Lou Dobbs, Jan Hopkins.
HOPKINS: Good evening. Lou is off tonight.
Prosecutors say it's a good day for the good guys in the war on terror. Today a suspected arms dealer was arraigned on charges that he tried to sell shoulder-launched anti-aircraft missiles. Those missiles could have been used to shoot down airliners. We begin our coverage tonight with homeland security correspondent Jeanne Meserve.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHRISTOPHER CHRISTIE, U.S. ATTORNEY, DISTRICT OF NEW JERSEY: This morning, the terrorists who threatened America lost an ally in their quest to kill our citizens.
JEANNE MESERVE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Hekmat Lakhani was charged in a Newark, New Jersey, courtroom with attempting to provide material support to terrorists by allegedly selling a shoulder-fired missile. Prosecutors say Lakhani, described as a significant international arms dealer, offered the missile to an FBI informant who posed as a representative of a Somali group wanting to shoot down a U.S. commercial airliner. Government sources say U.S. law enforcement educated the informant about missiles and arms dealing to bolster his credibility. According to court documents, over a year and a half, more than 150 of his conversations with Lakhani were recorded on audio and videotape. According to court documents, Lakhani says, at one point, the buyer wanted the missiles for "the anniversary," presumed to be a reference to 9/11. Lakhani is described as willing, even eager to close a deal.
CHRISTIE: He on many occasions in reported conversations referred to Americans as bastards, Osama bin laden as a hero who had done something right and set the Americans straight.
MESERVE: Government sources say the U.S. paid for the dummy SA- 18 shoulder-fired missile which Russian undercover agents provided to Lakhani. Lakhani wanted to broker the sale of 50 more and asked the Russians about obtaining multi-ton quantities of C-4 plastic explosives, as well, according to court documents. Two other men have been charged in connection with the money side of the transaction. Law enforcement hopes these arrests will lead to others.
MICHAEL GARCIA, BUREAU OF IMMIGRATION AND CUSTOMS ENFORCEMENT: And we're always looking to develop further information, continue on with the case. A case like this, a major transaction, law enforcement will analyze every aspect of it.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MESERVE: Lakhani's lawyers have had no comment. Law enforcement is calling this an important case because of the international cooperation that helped crack it and the danger of the weapon involved. But experts caution there are a lot more shoulder-fired missiles, arms dealers and potential buyers out there. Jan, back to you.
HOPKINS: Jeanne, it is significant, though, there was so much international cooperation to get, as some said, the bad guy.
MESERVE: Absolutely because this is very much an international problem. The Bush administration has been trying to move internationally to stop the flow of these weapons from legitimate military organizations into the hands of terrorists. They've even started buy-back programs in some places. Probably of particular significance that this cooperation was with Russia, in this case. Ever since the breakup of the Soviet Union, there has been concern about loose weapons. Jan, back to you.
HOPKINS: Jeanne Meserve, thanks very much.
About 750,000 shoulder-launched anti-aircraft missiles are in circulation around the world. Hundreds are believed to be in the hands of terrorists. National security correspondent David Ensor joins me now -- David.
DAVID ENSOR, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Well, Jan, most of those thousands of "man pads (ph)" or shoulder-launched missiles, are in safe hands. But as you say, there are hundreds of shoulder-launched missiles that are believed by U.S. intelligence and others to be in the hands of terrorists. Most of those are the less reliable SA-7, Russian-made version, the kind that al Qaeda used unsuccessfully in Mombasa, Kenya, last year against an Israeli airliner. They tried to shoot it down, and they failed.
But some are the more sophisticated Russian SA-18. With infrared technology, it's considered far more deadly. And that was the weapon involved in this FBI sting. The Russians call this weapon, the SA-18, the Igla. And according to Jane's Information Group, it has a two- kilogram warhead. That's quite small. Experts say the missiles are designed to shoot down helicopters and small planes, not big airliners, and that if fired on a four-engine plane, such a heat- seeking warhead could only take out one of the engines.
Still, these weapons -- and they're small enough to fit in a golf club bag -- are now considered a threat to U.S. national security -- Jan.
HOPKINS: And a threat to airlines and corporate jets, as well, right? I mean, you're talking about very small planes.
ENSOR: well, small planes are certainly threatened by this particular device. And if multiple shoulder-launched missiles were fired on a large airline, it could bring them down.
HOPKINS: David Ensor, thanks very much.
The State Department tonight issued a new travel warning for Saudi Arabia. It warned U.S. citizens to postpone unnecessary travel to Saudi Arabia because of the risk of further terrorist attacks. Earlier British Airways suspended flights to Saudi Arabia because of security concerns. Those undisclosed concerns relate to British Airways flights to the capital, Riyadh. British Airways says its services will resume as soon as possible.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEOFF WANT, SECURITY DIRECTOR, BRITISH AIRWAYS: We have been given advice which makes us cautious and believe it appropriate and prudent for us to suspend operations until we can be assured it's safe for us to operate.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HOPKINS: In Saudi Arabia today, authorities in Riyadh said that five radical Islamists were arrested after a shoot-out with police this week. But seven suspects are still at large.
Terrorists in Iraq killed a U.S. soldier near Baghdad today. The military also announced the death of another soldier in a bomb attack yesterday. Sixty U.S. troops have died from hostile fire in Iraq since the president announced the end of major combat on May 1. Pentagon correspondent Chris Plante has the latest -- Chris.
CHRIS PLANTE, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Jan. One more U.S. soldier was killed in an ambush today with what the military describes as an improvised explosive device. Their armored personnel carrier ran the device over in an area north of Baghdad, in what the Pentagon now calls the "Ba'athist triangle," the area where many Saddam loyalists remain and where much of the violence against coalition troops has taken place. This brings to a total now of 176 U.S. troops that have been killed by hostile fire since the beginning of the war and 60 since President Bush declared an end to major combat hostilities -- Jan.
HOPKINS: What is the Pentagon saying about the possibility of sending Marines into Liberia?
PLANTE: Well, we learned here this afternoon that in addition to the nearly 100 Marines that are on the ground there now, primarily providing security at the embassy, 200 more Marines will go in tomorrow to back up Nigerian peacekeeping forces there with the East African -- the West African peacekeeping unit there. The expectation is that about 150 combat Marines will go in and provide backup -- and only backup -- to the Nigerian forces, as the Nigerian forces move from the airport to the seaport, where they will attempt to drive the last remnants of rebel forces out. Navy SEALs will clear the waters near the port and, hopefully, clear the way for the beginning of the flow of humanitarian aid into the war-torn country -- Jan.
HOPKINS: Thanks, Chris Plante at the Pentagon.
It was a deadly day of violence in Afghanistan. It was the worst in more than a year, in fact. At least 15 people died when a suspected Taliban bomb exploded in a bus in the southern part of the country. Another 25 people were killed in tribal fighting southwest of Kabul. And the government says its troops killed 16 Taliban and al Qaeda gunmen southeast of the capital.
A warning today about more possible bomb attacks against Western targets in Indonesia. The U.S. ambassador in Indonesia told Americans living there that more attacks were likely after the bombing of the Marriott Hotel in Jakarta. He said the targets could include clubs, restaurants, shopping centers and schools.
The United States is also focusing on another crisis in Asia, the nuclear standoff with North Korea. Two senior officials in Washington said the United States may offer incentives to North Korea if it dismantles its nuclear program. Those incentives could include a written guarantee that the United States has no intention of attacking North Korea.
From national security to economic security, President Bush today said the tax cuts already in place will be enough to increase economic growth. Today, the president met his economic team at his ranch in Crawford, Texas. And White House correspondent Suzanne Malveaux joins us from near the ranch -- Suzanne.
SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Jan, President Bush wants another four years. He made the argument, the case today that, yes, he believes the economy is on the upswing. He also argued that it was not this administration's fault. He wants voters to know that it was not his administration's fault for the decline, for the recession. He said it began in March of 2000, when the stock market declined, that he inherited the recession the following year. He said it was because of his massive tax cut, that $1.35 trillion tax cut actually helped slow that recession. But then the country was hit by 9/11, corporate scandal. And then, he says, it was a march to war. It started a year ago, during his summer vacation at the Crawford ranch, a sense of anxiety that consumers and buyers had to invest and sell because of the anticipation of the war to come.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE WALKER BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: War's not exactly a positive thought, particularly when it comes to people, you know, willing to take risk and consumer confidence. But nevertheless, we dealt with that issue. And so -- and so now the economy is -- having overcome those obstacles, is beginning to recover. And yes, I think people are going to go back to work. And I strongly believe that what we have done was the absolute right course of action in order to help people find a job.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MALVEAUX: The Bush administration is very much aware that this is a top issue when it comes to the reelection. Fifty-seven percent -- a Pew Research Center poll shows that it is the top presidential priority for most voters. And again, the administration facing criticism not only from Democrats but also economists. They point to the three million jobs lost during Bush's tenure. They talk about the $455 billion federal deficit. And the most important thing, they say, is the long-term effect of that deficit, the question of whether or not the government is going to be able to pay out for Social Security, for Medicaid and Medicare when those Baby Boomers retire -- Jan.
HOPKINS: Thanks, Suzanne Malveaux, near the Crawford White House. Thanks.
Later in the show, we'll speak with Treasury Secretary John Snow about the administration's plans for the economy and jobs.
And also ahead tonight, the recall free-for-all. California's list of perspective candidates reads like the cover of a supermarket tabloid. Senior political analyst Bill Schneider will report.
And then "Face-Off." Should the U.S. send military forces into Liberia? Lisa Sylvester reports on past U.S. military efforts in Africa. And then two leading experts will face off.
And batter up. "American classics," our feature series, continues tonight with baseball. Peter Viles will have the story, and Hall of Fame manager Tommy Lasorda will be our special guest.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HOPKINS: One hundred thirty-one candidates for governor and counting. The California recall ballot is taking final shape tonight. Election officials will soon announce just how much candidates are certified to run. Meanwhile, Arnold Schwarzenegger has added more muscle to his campaign. Billionaire investor Warren Buffett will serve as Arnold's unpaid economic adviser. Schwarzenegger calls Buffett his hero. Former president Bill Clinton become has reportedly been offering campaign advice to Governor Gray Davis. And Green Party member Ralph Nader was pied in the face as he endorsed his fellow party member, Peter Camejo. All of this makes for great television, and it certainly adds to the circus-like atmosphere surrounding the recall race. It is also having another effect. Voters in the Golden State are suddenly paying attention to politics. Bill Schneider reports from Los Angeles.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
WILLIAM SCHNEIDER, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST (voice-over): Porn stars, movie actors, smut peddlers running for governor. Even comedians are dismayed.
BILL MAHER, HOST, HBO'S "REAL TIME WITH BILL MAHER": This is not what the Founding Fathers had in mind when they founded this republic. One of their greatest fears was putting too much power in the hands of the howling masses.
SCHNEIDER: For years, the masses in California have been howling -- with boredom. Involvement in politics has been dwindling. In 1966, when Ronald Reagan got elected governor, 79 percent of those registered voted. When Jerry Brown won in 1974, 64 percent. Pete Wilson's election in 1990 brought out 59 percent. Last year, just over 50 percent turned out for Gray Davis's reelection. The media responded by not paying much attention. The joke: TV news wouldn't cover a political debate unless the candidates got in a freeway chase.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He starts moving from lane to lane and is mainly staying over there to the left lane...
SCHNEIDER: But now, suddenly, all that apathy and cynicism seem to be turning around.
JILL STEWART, SYNDICATED POLITICAL COLUMNIST: I notice the East Coast media has been using the term "chaos" -- chaos and confusion, chaos and confusion. But California voters aren't finding that much chaos. They're enjoying the stories.
SCHNEIDER: Apparently, now the recall is getting equal billing with crime.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A judge in San Francisco rules that a convicted child molester must go free this week.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And Governor Davis lays out his plan for the days leading to the recall election.
SCHNEIDER: There's an explosion of public interest in politics. Last year, two months before the election for governor, 24 percent of California voters said they were very interested in the campaign. Right now, 71 percent say they are very or extremely interested.
ALEX BEN BLOCK, EDITOR, "TELEVISION WEEK": People in California, who usually just don't care, and too blase about the whole thing, suddenly become involved, excited, talking about which candidate, laughing, crying, you know, jumping on bandwagons, jumping off bandwagons. SCHNEIDER: You can see it in the breathless local coverage. Sure, it's the prospect of electing a movie star. But it's something else, too: angry voters taking power into their own hands. It's called democracy.
BLOCK: We have a democracy, and democracy only works when people get involved. And right now, California is a boiling cauldron of democracy.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SCHNEIDER: A boiling cauldron of democracy. That's democracy on the people's own terms. And that may be what it takes to get Americans engaged in politics again, Jan.
HOPKINS: Let's talk a little bit about advisers to Arnold Schwarzenegger. Pete Wilson, a former governor -- doe that help or will he actually hurt Schwarzenegger?
SCHNEIDER: Well, it's become a source in the important Latino community here in California because Pete Wilson is a figure that has been much criticized. In fact, to some extent, I think he -- I can describe him as hated in the Latino community. When he ran for reelection in 1994, he supported a proposition that passed that denied public services to illegal immigrants. The courts later threw it out. But they deeply resent Wilson's role. They claim it was racist. They claim he targeted them. And when you watch the local media here in Los Angeles, there's a bigger audience for Spanish-language news broadcasts than there is for English news broadcasts. And Wilson's face is all over those news broadcasts as the co-chairman of the Schwarzenegger campaign. That could cost Schwarzenegger some important support in the Latino community.
HOPKINS: But Warren Buffett as an adviser -- that could actually help, couldn't it?
SCHNEIDER: That could help because, you know, one of the vulnerabilities that people have talked about on Schwarzenegger's part is, is he credible as governor of the nation's -- the world's fifth largest economy, the nation's largest state? Does he know what he's doing? Can he run things? Well, you know, Buffett is a very credible financial whiz. He's an old friend of Schwarzenegger's. And in the statement that Schwarzenegger just released -- you cited it before -- Schwarzenegger said, "Warren is helping me bring together a world- class team to assist me in addressing the problems and challenges faces California." Well, what he's doing is saying, You know, you want to know my positions on the issues? I have Warren Buffett here. He's going to help me run the state of California and straighten out this state's disastrous finances. That's pretty credible.
HOPKINS: Bill Schneider, thanks.
Coming up: Thousands of U.S. troops are off the coast of Africa. In tonight's "Face-Off," two leading experts will share their opposing views on the American role in Liberia. And then: The president's economic team meets in Crawford. We'll speak with Treasury Secretary John Snow on the administration's plans to put Americans back to work.
And the heat wave across Europe is having a dramatic effect on a very famous landscape.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HOPKINS: As you know, we take a look at the national debt every night here, and a new poll finds about three quarters of Americans are concerned about the federal budget deficit. "The Washington Post" poll found that 73 percent of those surveyed said the deficit's a problem, 23 percent said it's not a problem. And when asked whether President Bush bears responsibility for the deficit, 52 percent said he bears at least a good amount of responsibility. And that's up from 42 percent in January of last year.
Earlier, I spoke with Treasury Secretary John Snow and asked him if he thought the deficit posed a significant problem for the economy.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHN SNOW, TREASURY SECRETARY: I think the deficit's too large. It's manageable, but it's unwelcome and it's worrisome. And that's why the president has made the commitment to cut it in half over the course of the next five years.
HOPKINS: And that will be an improving economy, basically, helping out, get rid of the deficit. Also we have a lot of war costs. Will those go away in five years?
SNOW: Well, yes, you're absolutely right. What will help bring the deficit down is a stronger economy, which will generate more governmental revenues through taxes, and tight spending controls. We can never forget the importance of spending controls. And the president has suggested that spending be tightly controlled, not to exceed 4 percent. And that combination of a growing economy with a rising tax base, more governmental revenues and tight spending controls, will bring that deficit down over the course of the next few years.
HOPKINS: You know, about 30 percent of Americans say that the economy is the No. 1 issue, at this point. Will that go away by the presidential election next year?
SNOW: Well, I think the economy is always on people's minds, and properly so because there are few things more important than the economic outlook, than having a job and having the disposable income that comes with the job and having the dignity that comes with the job. So no, I think concern about jobs, concern about the economy will always be important considerations. But a year from now, I think we're going to see a much better economy and far less apprehension. I'd expect to see much higher growth rates in the economy. I'd expect to see millions of Americans returning to work. I'd expect to see the unemployment rates coming down. And that will deal with the apprehension that people feel when unemployment numbers are going up and when the economy isn't growing.
HOPKINS: At this point, though, since the president has taken office, more than three million jobs have been lost. Jobs are definitely on the minds of Americans. And it's not only because of the recession, but also a lot of jobs are being exported overseas, including high tech jobs and Wall Street jobs. Does the administration have some kind of plan to stop the exporting of jobs?
SNOW: Well, sure. The first place to start is to get the domestic economy, the U.S. economy performing closer to its full potential. And that's why the president is behind this major initiative. That's why the president proposed this major initiative, his jobs and growth bill. So we start with a stronger domestic economy, and that's going to create a lot of additional jobs and a lot of additional jobs in manufacturing.
But in addition, we have to encourage the rest of the world to grow faster. And I -- I'll be doing that. I've done that in my travels to Europe. I will be doing it in travels to Japan and in China early next month. In addition, we need to deal with some of the burdens on American manufacturers -- a costly tort liability system that imposes unnecessary costs on producers. We need to reduce health care costs. When you talk to business people, their No. 1 concern is the rise of health care costs. We have to address that problem.
HOPKINS: Thanks very much, John Snow, the treasury secretary, joining us from Crawford, Texas.
SNOW: Thank you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HOPKINS: Tonight's quote comes from Newark, New Jersey, where a British man was charged in the missile-smuggling case. Quote, "the president has made clear we're in an ongoing war against terrorism, and today the good guys won a battle in that war," end quote. That's from U.S. attorney Christopher Christie.
And when we come back, "Face-Off." Should the United States send more troops to Liberia? We will be joined by experts on both sides of that issue.
And then our feature series, "American Classics." Tonight baseball. Peter Viles has the story, and Hall of Famer Tommy Lasorda will be our guest from Ogden, Utah, the home of the minor league Ogden Raptors.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HOPKINS: As Chris Plante reported from the Pentagon tonight, another 200 U.S. troops could soon move ashore into Liberia. The Pentagon says that the troops would assist West African peacekeepers. They're expected to take over the port of Monrovia from rebels tomorrow. Thousands of Liberians looted the port today, taking food and supplies. Humanitarian workers are waiting to deliver more food to Monrovia, once the peacekeepers arrive. As U.S. forces remain on standby off the coast of Liberia, many continue to question whether the United States should commit any troops to the war-torn nation. Opponents cite a powerful and lingering image, the murder of 18 soldiers 10 years ago in Somalia. Those who argue U.S. involvement say it's a moral obligation and a humanitarian need. Lisa Sylvester reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LISA SYLVESTER, CNNfn CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): During the Cold War, the United States funneled millions of dollars to pro- Western rebel groups and governments to keep countries from falling into Communist hands. But after the collapse of the Soviet Union, Africa's strategic importance diminished. Civil war broke out in several countries, as dictatorships propped up by the two sides began to crumble. In December, 1992, American soldiers headed a team of multinational forces in Somalia, where the fighting was particularly brutal. It ended badly. 18 American soldiers were killed. Their bodies dragged through the streets.
STEPHEN MORRISON, CTR. FOR STRATEGIC AND INTERNATIONAL STUDIES: It really poisoned the debate and it set Africa aside as a zone into which you didn't venture with U.S. troops.
SYLVESTER: For the last decade U.S. support has been limited to training African soldiers and helping pay for U.N. peacekeeping missions in Sierra Leone, the Democratic Republic of the Congo, Ethiopia and Eritrea. This year alone the U.S. will spend $350 million but the United States has maintained a hands-off policy, refusing to get directly involved even when 800,000 were killed in the Rwanda genocide in 1994.
BILL DURCH, HENRY L. STIMSON CENTER: As a result of the Somali problem and the failure to react in Rwanda, there has been kind of I think set up a sense that the United States and developed countries in general don't really care enough about conflict in Africa.
SYLVESTER: But 9/11 changed things. Africa's importance to the United States has increased because of its oil resources and its potential as a breeding ground for terrorism.
WILLIAM ZARTMAN, JOHNS HOPKINS UNIVERSITY: September 11 has made the United States more aware of Africa and more concerned about Africa as a security problem particularly in east Africa, where al Qaeda has operated.
SYLVESTER: The most well known attacks were the 1998 U.S. embassy bombings in Tanzania and Kenya.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SYLVESTER: That's the reason late last year the United States began sending American troops to the horn of Africa. There are now more than 1,800 troops helping fight the war on terrorism -- Jan.
HOPKINS: Thanks, Lisa Sylvester in Washington. The debate about whether to send troops into Liberia is at the center of tonight's face off. George Ayittey is an economist at American University and he's also president of the Free Africa Foundation. He says what Africa needs from the United States is straight talk and tough love, not a military presence. And Princeton Lyman is a senior fellow with the council on foreign relations. He says the United States needs to send a significant number of troops into Liberia. Thank you both for being with us.
And George, let me ask you first, why do you think that Africa needs to go it alone?
GEORGE AYITTEY, ECONOMIST, AMERICAN UNIVERSITY: It's because we have crisis in several African countries. You may remember that Somalia's blown up, we have the crisis in Burundi, Congo, Ivory Coast, and so forth. And for a long time we've been trying to get our leaders to get off their ya-yas and to craft solutions for their problems.
Time and time again, each time there is a crisis in Africa, they appeal to the international community without doing anything. Finally we have been able to get them to cobble together a peacekeeping force for Liberia. So they should be allowed, given the opportunity or the chance for that operation to work in Liberia without necessarily inserting the U.S. troops in there.
HOPKINS: Ambassador Lyman, you were ambassador in Nigeria and also South Africa. Why do you think that U.S. troops should be involved and it shouldn't just be African troops?
PRINCETON LYMAN, FMR. AMBASSADOR TO NIGERIA, SOUTH AFRICA: Well, Africa is not very much different from other crisis places in the world. You recall in the 1980s, we originally said the Balkans is a European problem, let them handle it. But they were too close to it and they were divided. Eventually we had to become engaged. In Africa the Africans are doing a lot. They're leading the political process on Liberia but in terms of bringing stability to that situation quickly a presence on the ground of American troops would be dramatic and would help the political process and provide a good deal of guidance and direction for the west African peacekeeping force.
HOPKINS: But what do you say to the argument that American troops are overcommitted? We're already in Afghanistan. We're already in Iraq.
LYMAN: Well, first of all we have 2,000 troops sitting off the coast of Liberia, they're not available elsewhere. The question is how do we deploy them and use them there.
Beyond that, in almost all these crises, there's a cooperative international requirement. We have 29 countries helping us in Iraq and we're asking for more. We didn't get asked to go into the Congo, others did. The French, the British, the Belgians. We didn't go into Sierra Leone, we weren't asked. We didn't go to Cote d'Ivoire.
There are times that we are asked to take a leading roll and in other cases to help out others. And when we go in a leading role, we ask others to help us. It has to be a cooperative effort. In each situation, you have to look at the country that has both the best political entree and the military capability in that situation.
HOPKINS: Professor Ayittey, there are already going to be American troops arriving in Liberia, a small number. Why not commit more?
AYITTEY: Well, that's understandable that everybody wants to stop the carnage and the horrible humanitarian situation, but we need long-term solutions, not band-aid solutions. And look it, the problem that we have in Liberia is not confined within that country alone. It is the entire west African region which has been destabilized. Therefore we need a west African solution to this crisis.
Now, currently there are peace talks in Ghana. That should be allowed to work itself out. And therefore, I don't think we should be second guessing whether the African peacekeepers are trying to do for their region.
HOPKINS: Ambassador, what's your response to what the professor's been arguing?
LYMAN: Well, I certainly support the west African political process that they are engaged in in Ghana. And I agree that the west Africans must deal with the broader stability problems in west Africa. But you can't have a political process that will be successful if warlords are fighting it out on the ground in Liberia.
This is a situation in which we can help stabilize the situation and lend very strong support to that political process. It's not logical to say that the political process can go on in the next country while warlords are fighting it out on the ground. If we had brought in sufficient forces early on to the situation we could have helped stabilize this situation even earlier.
HOPKINS: Professor?
LYMAN: Well, I think it's all well said and done, but at the same time let's not forget that we have other crises in Burundi and Congo. Is my colleague going to ask for the insertion of American troops in the Congo or Burundi? I mean, look it, like I said, we need long-term solutions to this. And finally we should be able to craft -- and that's what we've been trying to do for west Africa -- craft a west African solution, a long-term solution.
Liberia is a failed state. And the ECOWAS countries need to take over that. Declare a treasteship (ph) over Liberia. Run it for 5 years. Build up the institutions in the country. Provide water, electricity and basic services before handing it over to the Liberians to run in terms of holding free and fair elections. Because the rebels are no different from Charles Taylor. We need to take a very serious look at the situation in Liberia.
HOPKINS: Ambassador, other west African countries taking over Liberia? What do you think about that? LYMAN: Well, I do think there needs to be an important international oversight of Liberia politics and its administration for some time. Whether it's done by the west African states, or by the U.N. as was done in East Timor and has been done in Kosovo is something that needs to be decided in the negotiations now going on in Ghana between the west African states, the Liberians and the U.N.
But let me comment on George's comment about elsewhere in Africa. We haven't been asked to send troops into the Congo and I don't think we need to send them. But we do support other countries doing so. The same is true in Burundi. And Africans are in the lead in peace processes in both places. The question is where it is appropriate for the U.S., like we sent troops into the Philippines because we have a long history there. In Liberia, we are the logical country to help out.
HOPKINS: I have a last question for both of you. And that is, what about the war on terror? Is that a reason why U.S. troops ought to be in west Africa? Professor, you first, and then the ambassador.
AYITTEY: Well, I think stability in west African region would be good for everybody including the U.S. because west Africa, the strategic importance of west Africa, is becoming increasingly apparent because of west Africa, the Gulf of Guinea has large reserves of oil. And if we have stability in the region, we can develop that. It would be beneficial for all sides. But let me also add that --
HOPKINS: Let's get final thoughts from the ambassador.
AYITTEY: Okay.
HOPKINS: Ambassador?
LYMAN: Just on your question on terrorism, we already know from evidence that al Qaeda exploited the situation in Sierra Leone and Liberia by engaging in the illicit diamond trade. They're doing the same in the Congo.
So, we do have a security interest. Failed states with precious resources open the door to terrorist exploitation. That's a lesson we've learned and we should be more proactive in this situation to get that situation under control.
HOPKINS: Thank you both for facing off. Princeton Lyman and George Ayittey.
We'd like to hear what you think about this very important issue. Our poll question tonight is "how many U.S. forces should help keep the peace in Liberia? 0-200, 200-2,300, 2,300-8,000, or more than 8,000 -- actually that's 5,000." It's not 8,000. Cast your vote at cnn.com/lou and we'll bring you preliminary results later in the show.
Now the final results of yesterday's poll. We asked, "Under what conditions should the attorney-client privilege be abolished? Eight percent of you said white collar crime; 11 percent said public safety; 24 percent said national security and 57 percent said never. Still to come, there's nothing more American than baseball. In our series, "American Classics" Peter Viles takes a look at the national pastime. And hall of fame manager Tommy Lasorda will join us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HOPKINS: Tonight, we continue our series of features on "American Classics." Tonight, a look at baseball. The game has provided Americans with countless memories for more than 150 summers.
Peter Viles reports on why the national pastime still has a powerful grip on the country.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
(SINGING)
PETER VILES, CNNfn CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): What makes baseball our national pastime? Why do we still love a game that's old and kind of slow? But let's face it, some of it is nostalgia.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This field, this game, it's a part of our past, Ray. It reminds us of all that once was good.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hey, is this heaven?
KEVIN COSTNER, ACTOR: No. It's Iowa.
VILES: Even without Hollywood's help, baseball has a glorious past. When we needed heroes, baseball gave us Babe Ruth, Lou Gehrig's unforgettable farewell.
LOU GEHRIG, BASEBALL PLAYER: Today, I consider myself the luckiest man on the face of the Earth.
VILES: And when we needed to laugh, baseball helped.
LOU COSTELLO, COMEDIAN: Who's on first, what's on second, I don't know is on third.
BUD ABBOTT, COMEDIAN: You know the guys names in the baseball game. Who's on first?
COSTELLO: Yes.
ABBOTT: I mean, the guy's name.
COSTELLO: Who.
ABBOTT: The guy playing first base.
COSTELLO: Who.
ABBOTT: The guy on first base.
COSTELLO: Who.
ABBOTT: The guy on first base.
COSTELLO: Who is on first.
ABBOTT: What are you asking me for? I don't know.
VILES: Even rock 'n' roll celebrates baseball's olden days.
(MUSIC)
VILES: But baseball's not a museum piece. It's a game. It's living history -- 78 million people have been to a pro game this summer, 2.5 million kids play Little League. You think baseball's over the hill? Well, try telling these kids.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The fun about it is winning, bubblegum and free food.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hitting the grand slam when you're down by 3 with a full count and two outs.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Pressure.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Getting dirt, man. Nothing better. Getting better.
VILES (on camera): Just try to imagine America without baseball. Think of all the things that baseball has given us that we take for granted. The slump, the rally, the comeback, the double play, the grand slam. Baseball gave us Astroturf. If we didn't have baseball in America, we wouldn't have baseball caps.
(voice-over): Baseball's a window into American life. You want four words that capture America's can-do spirit?
Listen to this.
(MUSIC)
VILES: John Fogerty wrote that song about an American hero, the underdog.
JOHN FOGERTY, ROCK STAR: It's a guy coming up. It's not an old timer that's been around forever. It's a new kid, a rookie. That's what baseball and life itself is all about, really. There's this renewal all the time.
VILES: Baseball bridges the generations. Maybe your grandfather saw Lou Gehrig play. Well, you saw Cal Ripken.
CAL RIPKEN, BASEBALL GREAT: When I was linked with Lou Gehrig, it made a lot of people think and forget about the big business of baseball and about the money and about free agents and all that kind of stuff. They started to look at it as baseball again. And when you focus on what happens between the white lines, it's a really great game.
VILES: And if you want to know why baseball has it over football, watch the hats.
TIM MCCARVER, RETIRED BALLPLAYER: You never see any football players who don't wear baseball caps on the sidelines. And you would be hard pressed to find a baseball player relaxing in a dugout with a football helmet on.
VILES: Peter Viles, CNN, Brooklyn, New York.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HOPKINS: Joining us now is a former manager of the Los Angeles Dodgers and hall of famer Tommy Lasorda. He's joining us from Ogden, Utah, which is home of the Minor League Ogden Raptors, in a place where he managed a Minor League team a mere 37 summers ago.
Why is baseball such an American classic? Did Pete have it right, it's all about the caps?
TOMMY LASORDA, SENIOR VICE PRESIDENT, LOS ANGELES DODGERS: No, I think baseball is America's game, Jan. It's played by everybody.
You know, to play football, you got to be big and strong. And basketball, you got to be tall and maybe quick. But baseball, everybody can play the game, no matter what side you are. It's the greatest game. It's the common denominator, brings so many people together.
And I don't believe when one person said it was a slow game. It isn't a slow game. It's a fast game. It's a game of skill and quickness and the ability to execute. That's what makes baseball so great.
And here I am sitting in Ogden, Utah, where I managed here in 1966, '67 and '68. And I enjoyed it so much because I was taking youngsters coming out of high school and colleges and making them believe that they could play in Dodger Stadium.
HOPKINS: A lot of the excitement, a lot of the underdogs are in Minor League baseball, not so much in the professional games. How do you get that excitement from the minor leagues and from, you know, from the kids into the stadiums?
LASORDA: Well, what do you mean by that, Jan?
HOPKINS: Well, a lot of people have raised questions about you know, the number of people that haven't gone to games, tickets being, you know, more expensive, year after year. What's your sense of the health of the game, especially the professional part?
LASORDA: Well, we just played a weekend with the Chicago Cubs. We had 50-some thousand in three games. And we played the Angels, where a full house. We went to Anaheim. They filled the park. People are still going to the game because baseball is the game. You take a guy who works hard all week trying to raise a family and earn a living. He needs an escape with that family. He needs an escape with that family. He need to go somewhere, whether it's to the movies or the picnic or the parade ground or the amusement park. Well, what greater place can a family of five go to what I call beautiful Dodger Stadium, blue heaven on Earth, and watch baseball at its best and buy five general admission tickets for maybe $25 or so. Try to buy five tickets to an NFL game or NBA game for that kind of money. That's why baseball is the greatest sport in this country.
HOPKINS: How can you continue to make the sport grow and be satisfying for generations to come? Are there changes that need to be made maybe in the number of teams, for example?
LASORDA: No, I think what changes, if we need to make any, is to create parity in baseball, where every team can go to spring training and say, we have an opportunity to get into the fall classic.
Right now that is not in our game because there are these low market teams who are not getting the income and are not able to sign the players like the big market team. What we need is parity in baseball, and if we get that, that will be the greatest thing to happen to our game in a long time.
HOPKINS: You thinking about running for governor in California? You're from that state. A lot of other people put their hat in the ring. I guess it's too late to sign up right?
LASORDA: I saw in "USA Today" when they started talking about sports people getting involved in running for governor, and they had my name in there. And it said I was a 7-5 choice to win if I did get into it. But I want to be in baseball. That's my life. I love this game, Jan.
HOPKINS: Thanks very much. Tommy Lasorda, thanks for joining us.
Tonight's spot is on the national pastime -- thanks for being here.
Baseball, it is said, is only a game. True. And the Grand Canyon is only a hole in Arizona. That's from columnist and author of several books on baseball, George F. Will.
And when we return, the Swiss Alps are disappearing. Extreme heat is turning these mountains into lakes. That story and more next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HOPKINS: Temperatures in Europe moderated a little today, but elderly people suffering from heat-related illnesses are still filling Paris hospitals. Uncontrolled forest fires continue to burn across the continent. Three villages in Portugal are now threatened by the flames. The hot temperatures in Europe are even being felt in the Swiss Alps. Glaciers there have shrunk to sizes not seen in 150 years.
Ralitsa Vassileva has this report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
RALITSA VASSILEVA, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): In addition to the toll its taking on humans, Europe's record heat wave is now beginning to affect Switzerland's glaciers. It was five degrees Celsius at the top of the 3,900 meter glacier Tuesday. The unusually high temperatures are changing the landscape of the glaciers. Creating a waterfall, even a small lake. But more melting is the last thing local scientists and residents want to see. They fear it could lead to mudslides and flash flooding.
CHALY WUILLOUD, NATURAL RISKS SECTION VALAIS STATE (through translator): Over the last 15 to 20 years we've regularly lost 1 to 1.5 meters a year through ice melts. And to reconstitute this, we would need in the space of five years, 40 to 50 meters of fresh snow each year.
VASSILEVA: Expert assist the record high temperatures from worsened the trend of glacier retreat. Some blame this on global warming. Now the latest heat wave could aggravate what is already a major concern for them.
Ralita Vassileva, CNN.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HOPKINS: When we return the preliminary results of "Tonight's Poll" and a look at some of "Your Thoughts."
Then drivers beware. Cops in one small town are luring drivers into a trap. But AAA is helping those behind the wheel. That story and a great deal more.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HOPKINS: Now the preliminary results of "Tonight's Poll. The question, how many U.S. Forces should help keep the peace in Liberia. Most of you, 45 percent said 0 to 200.
Now to stocks, the Dow broke a five-session winning streak falling 38 points. Nasdaq lost loss less than a point. And the S&P also fell.
Christine Romans is here with the market.
CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNNfn CORRESPONDENT: Jan, it was quiet sell- off. About 15 percent less volume at the big board than the three- month average. A bit of conundrum for stock investors. July retail sales were strong, 1.4 percent. June sales were revised higher. Wal- Mart posted double digit percent gains. But that economic strength pushed bonds higher. And derailed a five day winning streak for the Dow and the S&P 500. Still some perspective, though, markets are holding on to that spring rally. The Dow was up 11.2 percent this year, barely off its 52-week high. The Nasdaq is ups 26.3 percent. S&P 500 up almost 12 percent. The Caterpillar, International Paper, 3M, all of them hitting intraday 52-week highs. The semiconductor stocks were also strong. The biggest weakness for the Dow came from drug stocks, after a European company one permission to market a cholesterol drug that will compete with some of the U.S. companies -- Jan.
HOPKINS: Thanks Christine.
Now a look at some of "Your Thoughts."
Many of you wrote about the difference between veterans's benefits and those serving their country on Capitol Hill.
Gail Rubio of Brea, California said, "Congress, with all it's hangers-on including the White House and cabinet, looks after itself first. Veterans should top the list of those receiving the best medical care available. We give billions to other nations. What happened to charity begins at home?"
And Miranda from Panama City, Florida said, "All the military access to the same benefits that other federal employees enjoy. Treat our heroes like the first-class people thy are, and recognize the sacrifices they and their families make in defense of this country. We owe our brave military members and their families no less."
We love hearing from you. You can e-mail us at any time at loudobbs@cnn.com.
And finally tonight, speed traps can be cash cows for small towns. And they're a major pain for out of town drivers. Now, AAA has put up a pair of billboards outside the town of Waldo, Florida. The billboards warn drivers to slow down for the town's speed traps. Local police who wrote more than 5,000 tickets during a recent four- month period are said to be upset by those signs.
That's our show tonight. Thanks for joining us. Tomorrow in our features series, "American Classics," a look at a literary legend Huckle Berry Fin.
For all of us here good night from New York.
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Could Land in Liberia Tomorrow; Interview With John Snow>
