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Lou Dobbs Tonight
Gas Prices Hit Record High; Final Shuttle Columbia Report Released Tomorrow
Aired August 25, 2003 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR: Tonight: Gasoline prices around the country are running at record highs. Bill Tucker reports.
The Ten Commandments controversy. Is the debate over a 2.5 ton monument about demagoguery, tyranny of the minority, or the Constitution? We'll have a live report.
Our special report tonight: "Making the Grade," why our schools are failing too many students.
And red, red wine, there's new evidence that it's not only good for you, but slows aging as well.
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT for Monday, August 25. Here now, Lou Dobbs.
DOBBS: Good evening.
Gasoline prices tonight at the highest level they've ever been. According to the Energy Department, the average price for a gallon of regular gasoline now costs about $1.75. That's 12 percent increase over the past week. The previous record was $1.73, a price recorded just before the war against Saddam Hussein earlier this year.
This latest increase in gasoline prices comes just before the long Labor Day weekend. It's been fueled by a mixture of lower gasoline inventories, a ruptured gasoline pipeline in Arizona, and the August 14 blackout.
Bill Tucker has the report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BILL TUCKER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Gasoline prices are at record levels. According to the Energy Information Agency, the national average for a gallon of unleaded gas was $1.74 in the latest reporting week.
A rupture in the supply pipeline to Arizona resulted in long lines at gas stations. And drivers in Phoenix paid $2.09 for a gallon of unleaded. In Scottsdale, a gallon set drivers back $2.13. Those are the highest prices ever recorded by AAA in the state. But Arizona's not where you'll find the highest prices. Broken down by region, that distinction belongs to California, where a gallon of gasoline cost over $2, up more than 50 cents from a year ago. But not everyone is shocked by the prices.
KAREN MATUSIC, SENIOR EDITOR, ENERGY INTELLIGENCE: When you look at European prices that are about $5 a gallon for a country like Norway that produces oil, is a net exporter of oil, don't forget that the price in 1981 is the equivalent in today's dollars of $2.50 a gallon. So people can't cry too much yet.
TUCKER: Maybe they shouldn't, but they do. And they're also driving more. Demand has risen in the last three weeks and isn't expected to ease just yet.
ROBERT SINCLAIR, AAA OF NEW YORK: This coming weekend, overall, we're thinking about 36 million will be traveling. And about 34 million of those will be traveling by motor vehicle. And that's the highest it's been since 1995.
TUCKER: Complicating the equation is reformulated blends, which reduce refinery capacity. But relief may be coming after Labor Day.
FREDERICK LEUFFER, BEAR STEARNS: No, I don't think we'll have to get used to this price. I think that we'll probably, in the short term, see a little more strength. And then I think it will correct fairly significantly. And I wouldn't look for this sort of pricing to be normalized.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
TUCKER: The final factor behind rising prices is the shutdown of seven refineries in the Northeast because of the blackout. All but one of those refineries are now back online -- Lou.
DOBBS: The role of Iraq in this, anything at all?
TUCKER: No, nothing to do with it at all.
DOBBS: I always love it when experts start comparing prices here against Europe. The reason they have $5 gasoline is because they choose to tax gasoline at that level. Taxes play any role here?
TUCKER: Taxes are big here, but that's not what's behind this, Lou.
DOBBS: Has there been a tax increase?
TUCKER: There's not been a tax increase.
DOBBS: That's what I'm asking. All right, Bill Tucker, thank you.
TUCKER: You're welcome.
DOBBS: Hurricane Ignacio is pounding California's Baja Peninsula tonight. Ignacio is lashing the Peninsula's eastern coast with heavy rain and winds, forcing thousands of people to evacuate. Officials warn that rainfall amounts could reach as much as 20 inches and likely to bring mudslides and flash floods through the area.
Ignacio is the Eastern Pacific's first hurricane of the season. And it's expected to dissipate as it moves north. There is a possibility it could bring some rain to Arizona and New Mexico.
A constitutional battle continues to rage in Alabama. A 2.5-ton monument of the Ten Commandments is expected to be removed from Alabama's highest court as early as this week. Dozens of demonstrators still surround the monument, praying that it will not be removed. Others are taking legal action to keep the commandments in place.
David Mattingly is in Montgomery, Alabama, and has the latest for us -- David.
DAVID MATTINGLY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, Justice Roy Moore came out here outside the judicial building in the sweltering summer heat to speak to some very enthusiastic supporters, who refuse to leave the steps of this building.
His lawyers say he's going to continue fighting. He says That they are going to go back to the Supreme Court with another petition. They are also going to vigorously defend him before a state judiciary board.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHIEF JUSTICE ROY MOORE, ALABAMA SUPREME COURT: Christians are offended at many things in today's society. They're offended at abortion, at sodomy in our streets, at kids getting killed in school. And yet we seem to be ashamed of standing up and speaking the truth, of acknowledging that we are created in the image of God and endowed by him with our rights of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MATTINGLY: Earlier today, barricades went up around the glass doors of the judicial building. According to the building manager, this was for the security of the building and the safety of the people out here.
They're worried that, if someone manages to break those glass doors, it could do someone some very serious harm. But, for now, the monument hasn't moved. And there's no official word about how, when, or where it might be moved any time in the near future. But for right now, Lou, this is what's going on, people taking a break from the heat of the day. You see all these empty seats. Pretty soon, people will be coming back after they've gone somewhere to get something cool to drink, maybe a shower.
They're going to come back here for a rally this evening, the same pattern that we've seen ever since last Wednesday, when that midnight deadline came and went and the monument did not move -- Lou.
DOBBS: David, we have shown a number of demonstrators there, all of them peaceful. Give us a sense of the proportion, those, if you will, in support of the monument and those opposed.
MATTINGLY: Out here on the steps, at any time, you will find dozens of people out here. The number will grow in the evening, as people get off work, when they come out here for the organized rallies.
Today, there was about a half-dozen people across the street carrying signs demonstrating in favor of the monument being moved. But at this point, if you're just looking, comparing numbers, the numbers of people protesting the movement of the monument greatly outnumber the people who are defending the movement.
DOBBS: David Mattingly, we thank you very much, live from Montgomery.
We'll have much more on this Ten Commandments controversy later in the show, when I'll be joined by Barry Lynn, who's the executive director of Americans United for the Separation of Church and State, and John Giles, the president of the Christian Coalition in Alabama. That's still ahead here tonight.
In Massachusetts, prosecutors today said the prisoner suspected of murdering defrocked priest John Geoghan had planned that killing for weeks. Inmate Joseph Druce is serving a life sentence for killing a gay man 15 years ago.
Jason Carroll is here and joins us with the very latest -- Jason.
JASON CARROLL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Lou, prosecutors describe Joseph Druce, the inmate accused of murdering Geoghan, as a man filled with a longstanding hatred of homosexuals.
He was housed in the same prison unit as John Geoghan, the defrocked priest convicted of molesting a young boy. Boston's district attorney says Druce had been planning Geoghan's murder for more than a month, using a book, a nail clipper, and a toothbrush to jam Geoghan's cell door.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHN CONTE, WORCESTER COUNTY DA: The defendant tied Geoghan's hands behind his back with a T-shirt, threw him on the floor, took socks which he had previously been stretching for some time and used them to strangle.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CARROLL: The DA says Druce confessed to beating Geoghan, then using a pillowcase to strangle him, telling authorities getting Geoghan was like getting a prize.
This is the second prison facility where Geoghan has served in Massachusetts. The first, in Concord, he felt threatened by inmates and guards, that according to a prison advocacy group which represented him.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JIM PINGEON, MASS. CORRECTIONAL LEGAL SERVICES: There were guards who were urinating in his cell, guards who were defecating in his cell, guards who would shove him in the halls, an officer who would hand out newspaper articles about his crime. His nickname among the officers was Satan or Lucifer. He was sort of constantly experiencing this kind of harassment and abuse.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CARROLL: Representatives from the Concord facility did not return our calls. Geoghan was moved to the Souza facility, where he said he hoped things would be better -- Lou.
DOBBS: Jason, this investigation of the killing, there's no possibility here of any greater sentence than life in prison, should charges be brought.
CARROLL: That is correct.
Already, Druce is serving a life sentence for killing someone else. And so, at this point, this is a man who is already serving a sentence. So what would happen is, they would just have to add another sentence on top of that.
DOBBS: Jason Carroll, thank you very much.
Still ahead here: high-profile support for California's governor and one of his most popular opponents. Bob Franken will report from Los Angeles on the heated recall race that has a number of interesting new developments today.
Also ahead: Israel wants Iraqi oil and a pipeline to carry it. Is that such a bright idea? Kitty Pilgrim will have the report.
And failing our children, American schools in crisis. Lisa Sylvester reports from Washington. And we'll be joined by the secretary of the Department of Education, Rod Paige.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: A new poll shows support for replacing Governor Gray Davis is declining. And Arnold Schwarzenegger is about to pick up a major endorsement.
Bob Franken has the latest on the recall race from Los Angeles -- Bob.
BOB FRANKEN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Where do we start?
First, with -- we'll do it in the order you did, Lou. First, the poll, "Los Angeles Times" poll. As you pointed out, Gray Davis is steadily improving, to the point where only 50 percent of those who were asked, likely voters, only 50 percent say they support the recall; 45 percent say they are opposed to the recall. That's an improvement over the 58 to 60 percent that had been cited earlier.
Now, as for the Democratic replacement, in case there is a replacement or the replacement, period, the man who is now leading by a substantial amount in that "L.A. Times" poll is the lieutenant governor, Cruz Bustamante, 35 percent over Arnold Schwarzenegger's 22 percent. Now, that was before Bill Simon, the Republican, pulled out of the race, but he was only getting about a 6 percent return. So it really wouldn't have made the difference.
Bustamante is now the man to beat if in fact Gray Davis does not succeed the recall. That is what's going on as far as the horse race is concerned -- actually, the horse races. Now, within the Republican Party, there's an effort to try and solidify the -- Bill Simon has pulled out, as we pointed out. Arnold Schwarzenegger is now starting to generate some support. Rudy Giuliani, former mayor of New York City, considered a Republican icon, is going to be endorsing Arnold Schwarzenegger, according to sources.
Now, he's out of the country, and we have no word yet on exactly what a campaign appearance schedule might be. We're also told that the governor of New York, Pataki, is planning a fund-raiser for Schwarzenegger, $1,000 a pop. That is going to be scheduled in the next short while. So Schwarzenegger is now starting to get the established Republican support, which raises the question, what about that other Republican in the race who's siphoning a lot of support away from Schwarzenegger, among conservatives in particular, Tom McClintock?
Well, he is up to 12 percent and might pick up some of the Simon support. So any efforts to get him to back down have been met thus far with an absolute, steadfast no -- Lou.
DOBBS: Bob, Peter Ueberroth also with significant name recognition. Where does he stand now?
FRANKEN: He stands quite low in the polls, 7 percent, as a matter of fact. He hasn't really caught fire.
This is a man who has decided to be counterintuitive and run a campaign that is purely based on substance, no star power, very little organization these days. And thus far, it hasn't really gotten any traction.
DOBBS: Well, as I do the quick math here, when we add up Bill Simon, Peter Ueberroth, and Tom McClintock, the state senator, we come up with a number just about equaling that of Arnold Schwarzenegger.
FRANKEN: That's quite interesting. The Schwarzenegger amounts would of course benefit if one of those dropped out and placed the support there. And, yes, that combination might do it.
But that all means good news for the Democrats, because, if in fact the Republican Party is fractured, as it looks like it is right now, the beneficiary would be the Democrats, either Gray Davis beating the recall or Cruz Bustamante winning as the alternative candidate. DOBBS: Well, with the recall support slipping, at least in this one poll and with the fractured Republican Party there, is there a move on the part of the Republican Party in California to try to, if you will, consolidate their candidates?
FRANKEN: You bet there is.
As a matter of fact, it is widely believed that the departure of Bill Simon was part of that campaign. Now comes the question, will the principal person, that is to say Tom McClintock, can he be persuaded to get out? He is somebody who is known to defy party leadership in the past and could be expected to at least make it difficult for them for quite a while.
DOBBS: Bob Franken, thank you, reporting live from Los Angeles.
When we continue: The shuttle Columbia, just exactly what went wrong? Miles O'Brien will report on NASA's investigation and final report.
And the Ten Commandments controversy in Alabama pitting states rights against federal law. Two experts will share their drastically different views on this case.
And Iraqi oil for Israel, a controversial proposal meeting with stiff resistance. Kitty Pilgrim will have the report.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: The final report on the space shuttle Columbia disaster will be released to the public tomorrow. It is being promoted as a hard-hitting look at exactly what went wrong.
Tonight, Miles O'Brien takes us inside that investigation and tells us how NASA plans to use the findings of this report -- Miles.
MILES O'BRIEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, there's an awful lot about this report that's coming out tomorrow that we already know, because the man in charge, Retired Admiral Hal Gehman, has released recommendations as the board has discovered them along the course of this seven-month investigation.
Let's go through those recommendations first. And then we can talk a little bit about what else this report might say. First off, this issue of foam which struck the wing of Columbia 81 seconds after launch, this test July 7 that you see right there was very definitive, made it very clear that foam could cause a fatal breach. They will ask NASA to conduct more thorough inspections of that carbon material which is on the leading edge of the wing. NASA has agreed to do so.
Another recommendation which has come forth from the Gehman board, using spy satellites and spy telescopes routinely and frequently to try to catch glimpses of the shuttle in orbit. NASA has agreed to that. In addition to that, Gehman would like NASA to come up with a way to train and equip astronauts to conduct repair space walks in space during a mission, if need be. That's going to be a kind of challenging one. NASA is trying to work on that one right now.
In addition, some other issues that Gehman has brought up, the use of cameras during launch, like this one you see here, which showed that foam striking the leading edge of the left wing. There were actually some cameras that were inoperative that day. And the Gehman board is asking NASA to beef up its camera coverage of launches and, in addition, provide camera coverage of that external tank, that big orange tank, dropping away from the space shuttle orbiter, as well as the underside of the orbiter itself.
The administrator of NASA, who spoke to me exclusively yesterday, says he's ready to embrace this report lock, stock and barrel.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEAN O'KEEFE, NASA ADMINISTRATOR: They've made a determination. So, therefore, by definition, the recommendations are sound. They have spent all that time doing it. And I'm not sure the passage of more time would have made any difference one way or the other. But, by definition, we will not have a debate or argument about which recommendations are meritorious vs. others. They're all.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O'BRIEN: The real issue, however, which remains and the difficult question for NASA to answer is, how could a preventable accident like this have happened, when the best and brightest minds were constantly thinking about safety?
A lot of it has to do with just how organizations operate or don't operate well and human nature. And that's a very difficult thing to change, as you know, Lou.
DOBBS: A very difficult thing to change, and one might say, I think with some safety, at NASA sometimes more so than other places.
Did you ask Sean O'Keefe, about his early -- and, as it turns out now with these findings, unfortunate reference -- to foamologists. The initial reflex, as you recall, Miles, because you were there, on the part of the program director and others, who said there's no way it could be the foam. And it turns out that that is the incipient cause of this disaster.
O'BRIEN: Yes.
He basically told me, Lou, that he is a kind of person who doesn't dwell on those sorts of things. But there was a little bit of wincing there as he said that. Clearly, those early statements from himself and at the time, the shuttle program manager, Ron Dittemore, indicating that it couldn't possibly be foam are statements they probably would like to take back. But that's the way things go in these sorts of things.
And, clearly, the foam just didn't register with them as a possible concern.
DOBBS: Well, Miles, we thank you very much, Miles, for all of your reporting throughout this disaster, from the earliest moments until tonight. Thank you very much, Miles O'Brien.
Miles will have an exclusive interview with NASA Administrator Sean O'Keefe. Sean will be -- Sean O'Keefe and Miles O'Brien will be joining "NEWSNIGHT WITH AARON BROWN" tonight at 10:00 p.m. Please catch them right here on CNN.
When we continue: The commander of U.S. troops in Iraq says the number of troops there now is the right number. Ben Wedeman is live in Baghdad with the story.
And Iraqi oil for Israel. The Israeli government has a plan, and the world perhaps waiting to see some details. Kitty Pilgrim will report.
And drink to your health and for your health, a new report on the benefits of drinking red wine. The benefits are substantial. Jan Hopkins will have the story for us.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Another American soldier was killed today in Iraq, although not by hostile fire, bringing the total number of American fatalities since May 1 to 138. The news was followed today by the announcement that the Red Cross is reducing its presence in Baghdad.
Ben Wedeman reports from Baghdad -- Ben.
BEN WEDEMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Lou.
The Red Cross announced today that they would be reducing their non-Iraqi staff in Iraq, after receiving what one official at the Red Cross called credible knowledge, in their words, that the organization could be the target of an attack similar to that that happened on the United Nations a week ago.
Now, this same official said that they would restore their numbers in Iraq if the situation were to stabilize. Meanwhile, at the site of the United Nations headquarters that was bombed last week, it was announced that recovery and search operations had officially come to an end. According to a U.N. official there, they have at this point a list of 20 confirmed dead at the site. However, they continue to go through the rubble and search for remains and do forensic tests on those remains they have already to find out if there may be others who were killed in that blast.
Also today, the United Nations handed over to Iraqi families the bodies of seven Iraqis who were killed in that blast. Now, the whole question of those bodies had become something of a contentious issue, because their families had wanted to give them a proper burial as soon as possible. Now, meanwhile, to the south of Baghdad in the Shiite holy city of Najaf, thousands of mourners came out to mourn the dead, the death of three Iraqis who had served as bodyguards and staff members to Ayatollah Mohammad Said al Hakim, who is a prominent Shiite cleric who was the apparent target of an assassination attempt yesterday, just underscoring, Lou, yet again how unstable other parts of the country are -- back to you.
DOBBS: Ben, thank you -- Ben Wedeman reporting from Baghdad.
Fighting in southeastern Afghanistan as well today. At least 14 Taliban fighters were killed by Afghan troops backed up by U.S. warplanes. The battle occurred approximately 200 miles south of Kabul. And according to Afghan officials, more than 40 Taliban guerrillas were killed in that firefight. The fighting comes in the wake of a recent upsurge of attacks by the Taliban, including one in which an American member of special operations was killed last week.
At least 44 people are dead tonight after a pair of car bombings in Mumbai, India. At least 115 people were injured after the attacks in the city formerly known as Bombay. Police say the bombs were hidden in the trunks of two taxi cabs. One of the taxis exploded at the popular Gateway of India landmark. The other struck a crowded jewelry district. Hours later, authorities found nine detonators on a train track 50 miles north of what was once Bombay. No one has claimed responsibility for the attacks.
National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice today said, recent violence between Israelis and Palestinians is not stopping progress toward peace. In a speech to veterans, Rice said President Bush remains committed to the road map. It comes as Palestinian militant group Hamas today vowed revenge for an Israeli attack that killed four of its members.
Meanwhile, the Israeli government says it wants a pipeline to supply it with oil from Iraq. An Israeli minister says he will bring up the issue of building that pipeline next month in talks in Washington. Is that such a good idea?
Kitty Pilgrim reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KITTY PILGRIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Building an oil pipeline from Iraq to Israel? The Israeli minister of infrastructure is talking it up, saying he wants to bring up the plan next month in Washington.
According to some published reports, it's an idea that is floating around the Pentagon, something the Pentagon today called one of the many false reports out there.
AMB. DAVID MACK, MIDDLE EAST INSTITUTE: In my view this was a wish fulfillment of sorts, wishful thinking on the part of some people in Israel. JAMES CARAFANO, HERITAGE FOUNDATION: Shipping oil to Israel is kind of an Islamist terrorist dream. I mean, it will be the target for every wacko in the Middle East.
PILGRIM: Actually, a pipeline like that existed decades ago during the British era, but it was closed in 1948. A new pipeline, a larger one, would theoretically run more than 350 miles, taking oil from Iraq's northern fields of Kirkuk through Mosul to Jordan and then to Israel.
Getting it done would be a geopolitical nightmare. For one thing, it would strain relations with Turkey, which benefits from its own pipeline with Iraq. Israel says it would cut the price it pays for oil by 20 percent. But some experts say it wouldn't make sense commercially to bring oil over from Iraq to the Mediterranean, where prices are already low.
GEORGE BERANEK, PFC ENERGY: That's another reason that, frankly, I can see the Iraqis not being very enthused about this pipeline. They're sending a bunch of oil to a low-value market.
PILGRIM: Then there is security. Iraq's pipelines have already been under numerous attack. The most recent, the pipeline to Turkey was damaged a little more than a week ago.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: In terms of military effort to protect it, return on investment many experts we talked to say it makes little sense. But the basic bottom line is the Iraqis are the ones who are to decide what's to be done with their oil production -- Lou.
DOBBS: I think at best this is a highly questionable proposal. And in particular when you consider that sabotage to the pipeline running to Turkey, Turkey is predominantly Islamic. Israel cannot make the same claim.
PILGRIM: It's certainly not a good test case in terms of sustained attacks on that pipeline.
DOBBS: Kitty, thank you very much. Kitty Pilgrim.
PILGRIM: Well, tonight's quote on the media's influence on the perception of progress in Iraq, "With 24 hour news, each setback in Iraq is repeated and repeated and repeated, as if it were 10 or 20 setbacks, and the progress that is being made -- and let there be no doubt, solid is being made -- is often deemed not sufficiently newsworthy to report." That is from Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld.
Coming up next, "Failing in the Classroom." Why American schools in many cases simply don't make the grade. Lisa Sylvester reports from Washington.
And we'll be joined by Rod Paige, the Secretary of the Department of Education. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: As we approach the end of summer, students across the country getting ready to return to their classrooms. Tonight, in the first of a series of special reports this week, we take a look at how our children are being educated and at some of the breakdowns in the system.
Lisa Sylvester reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LISA SYLVESTER, CNNfn CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): As school starts around the country, parents have high hopes for their children. But at the start of the new year, it's the nation's education system that's lagging behind.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We've tried a lot of reforms. We've tried a lot of things differently. Scores are flat. The rest of the world is surpassing us. And the schools are not effective.
SYLVESTER: American students' reading levels rank below Canada, the United Kingdom, Japan, and France. High school seniors' interest in school is waning. And half of the nation's middle and high school teachers are not highly qualified to teach their subjects.
Recent education reform has focused on setting standards, testing students annually and holding administrators accountable for results. Under the No Child Left Behind Act signed by President Bush last year, if schools fail to meet targets two years in a row, parents can pull them out and place them in another public school.
But it's up to states to establish their own tests and standards. So each state can set the bar as high or as low as it wants.
RON SKINNER, "EDUCATION WEEK": It does call into question where the starting line is for this and where -- and frankly, where the finish line is, too, because you know, if the states are deciding what's proficient, then that's going to be, you know, it's going to be completely up to them.
SYLVESTER (on camera): Other countries have a national curriculum, with students in each grade level all learning the same thing. But the United States does not. And researchers say it would be very difficult to establish one in this country.
JEAN JONSON, PUBLIAGENDA.ORG: People trust their local school people, local police, local whatever more than they trust far off government in Washington. So there is this kind of preference for local control and local decision-making.
SYLVESTER (voice-over): Teachers say the problem is not the curriculum but the funding gap between affluent and low-income schools. State and local communities pay for 93 cents of every dollar spent on education. That means poorer school districts have fewer resources than wealthier ones. The inequity creates a learning gap.
SANDRA FELDMAN, AMERICAN FEDERATION OF TEACHERS: The children who are the neediest and who really need smaller class sizes, who need the best-trained teachers, who need technology, who need the support in so many ways are not getting it because their local communities can't afford it.
SYLVESTER: Everyone involved agrees closing the gap is vital if the United States is to maintain its competitive edge. But how to get there is a question no one can easily answer.
Lisa Sylvester, CNN, Forestville, Maryland.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: Well, the man who is responsible for coming up with as many answers as possible at the federal level joins us tonight to talk about the state of our educational system, the Secretary of the Department of Education, Rod Paige.
Good to have you with us, Mr. Secretary.
ROD PAIGE, SECRETARY OF EDUCATION: Thank you. Good to be here.
DOBBS: The issue of education, the fact that our students do not read or perform at the levels of a number of other countries, including Canada, Japan, much of the OECD countries in Europe -- is that reflective of a significant problem, or is it a difference without tremendous significance, in your view?
PAIGE: Well, I think it is a significant problem. But one thing we've got to take into consideration is that we have islands of excellence all across the United States. There are some great schools across the United States. And they're great because they have great teachers and great principals and great public support there.
But what we need to do is to make sure that that is the case all over. And our problem is having a system that works. We've got a lot of schools that work.
DOBBS: A system. And it becomes one of those words -- the educational system. What we really mean are schools. Schools imply community and localism. Is there anything that suggests to you a crying need to create a national curriculum?
PAIGE: Well, you know, I think one could only imagine the type of bureaucracy, federal bureaucracy that will be required to manage a federalized education system. The founders of our system didn't believe that was a good idea, and nor do I.
We have a system that holds the states responsible. Our Constitution holds the states responsible. And this system can work. I think what is missing is contained in the No Child Left Behind Act. The president proposed and the Congress passed a bill that I think farms the foundation for the change that we need. DOBBS: And that foundation, is it rooted, in your judgment, in great greater activism on the part of the local folks in their respective communities getting involved with the educational systems? Does it address, in your judgment, adequately the issue of teacher pay, teacher excellence?
PAIGE: Yes, I think it involves all of that, but more than anything it involves accountability. It involves being responsible.
I just saw in the report there the discussion about resources. We've been arguing for years that this is a resource issue. This is not a resource issue. Obviously, you could use more funds everywhere.
DOBBS: Right.
PAIGE: But there are examples of places where we have very high average student per pupil expenditure, yet they're doing poorly. It's not a resource issue.
DOBBS: In fact, the resources where they are the greatest, in nearly every instance seems to reflect lower performance on a mean basis.
PAIGE: That is true as often as it is untrue.
This nation spends $500 million -- $500 billion a year, local, state, and federal money, on K-12 education. Is it unreasonable to require accountability for those funds? That's the issue, I think.
DOBBS: We talk about -- and Lisa Sylvester just reported and you mentioned the issue of teachers. The pay, as I was mentioning. All of these hosts of issues, the fact is that most communities, I hear educators talk about the involvement of parents, getting the commitments from parents with their children and against all of the issue, two income earners in the family, working hard, not having the time. How important -- how much importance should we place on the role of the parent and the necessity of getting involved in their local schools?
PAIGE: Well, I think it's very important, and we should put a lot of emphasis there. But if that does not occur, we can't use that as an excuse.
The school has to make the difference. The school can make the difference. All across the United States there are schools that are making a difference with students who need the kind of support from parents but are not getting it.
DOBBS: The voucher system. What we are seeing now and increasingly every report that we're looking at. Where there is competition we are seeing schools, public schools improve simply because students have a choice. I'm not suggesting nor taking a position here on vouchers. But the fact is where we see competition it's making a difference.
PAIGE: Well, we all know monopolies don't work, don't we? (CROSSTALK)
PAIGE: ... take that in schooling. It doesn't work there, either. So when we have choice, we see growth in the public school system. I believe that the public school system can improve and can take on any competition that comes. But they've got to be freed from the monopoly that we've got them embedded in right now, so that the innovation and creativity can come forth. These systems can produce.
DOBBS: And if you had one opportunity to issue one edict, one fiat from your office and it would be carried out religiously and immediately across the nation's schools, what would it be?
PAIGE: A highly qualified teacher in every classroom, every child having a teacher that is highly qualified in that subject, and who cares and who loves to teach. That I think is a big key.
DOBBS: And a wonderful first fiat there.
PAIGE: We have to do something about compensation for teachers as well.
DOBBS: Absolutely. Secretary Paige, we thank you very much for being with us.
PAIGE: Thank you.
DOBBS: Thanks.
That brings us to the subject of tonight's poll. Our question, how do you rate the schools in your community? We've made it simple enough for even television journalists. A, B, C, no D's, just an F. Cast your vote at cnn.com/lou. We'll bring you the results later in the show.
Still ahead here, is it a question of states' rights, or is it a violation of civil rights? Two leading experts share their sharply different views on a monument of and to the Ten Commandments. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Now the Alabama battle over a monument to the Ten Commandments could be coming to a head, if not a resolution. The two- and-a-half ton statue can be removed as early as this week under a federal court order. Joining me now with different views on this issue is Barry Lynn, he's the executive director of Americans United for the Separation of Church and State. He joins us from Washington, D.C. We're joined tonight by John Giles, who is the president of the Christian Coalition in Alabama, he joins us from Montgomery.
Let me, if I may, turn first to John Giles there in Montgomery. This looks like it's over, that the monument will be removed as a result of the court order. How do you feel about that?
JOHN GILES, CHRISTIAN COALITION OF ALABAMA: Well, Lou, this is far from being over. The chief justice has filed a writ of - or however you say it, to the United States Supreme Court. People are coming from all over the country to show their support for the chief justice and for the Ten Commandments. You know what's amazing about this whole situation is that 77 percent of Alabamans want to see this monument kept in the building. And we feel like the law is on the chief justice's side. So this court battle is far from over. And I think the most ironic thing here overall is that our nation's highest court, the nine Supreme Court justices and the Supreme Court itself is in conflict with this lower court order because they too have the Ten Commandments in their building.
DOBBS: Barry Lynn, you are - how do you feel about that apparent inconsistency, outright contradiction?
BARRY LYNN, AMERICANS UNITED FOR SEPARATION OF CHURCH & STATE: Well, I don't think it's a contradiction because frankly it can't really read anything about the Ten Commandments by looking at this essentially decorative painting of Moses, several Roman emperors, Hammurabi and other famous law-givers. But I do think the legal case is over. And I think John and his supporters ought to see the same light at the end of the tunnel that I do, that is four federal judges have now said this monument must be removed from the rotunda of the judicial building right there in the capital of Alabama, and it will be removed. I wouldn't be at all surprised if it didn't go out tonight. I respect the fact that people have a right to file lawsuits, but frankly, the Supreme Court of the United States is not going to look at another petition from Judge Roy Moore because he has absolutely indicated complete defiance of federal court orders. He only obeys the ones that he's agreeing with, and that is literally no way to run a country or the state of Alabama.
DOBBS: Let me ask you this, Barry, this is a two-and-half ton monument. It includes a number of references and famous jurisprudence expressions coming from the Judiciary Act, as you see there, from 1789, "so help me God." It included the 1950s change in the Pledge of Allegiance, "one nation, indivisible, under God." Why in the world are those things not objectionable to you and to your organization, as well as this monolith in Montgomery?
LYNN: Well, some of them are objectionable because I don't think it's - it's never a good thing for church or for state to have a mix of the two where the religious organizations become dependent on the largess of government to promote religion. I think religion ought to be promoted by those who believe in it, by the priests, the rabbis, the ministers, the imams of the country. We don't really need the assistance of the judges in Alabama or any other political figure. I think some of those statements that you just cited, of course, go back - are really barely references to anything religious in the first place. They're kind of...
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: Wait, wait, wait, Barry, those are - "so help me God" is rather religious. We can create artifice and constructions, and I've heard this said about "in God we trust." I've seen the legal artifice created even by a number of courts. But religious connotations and merging from a rich Judeo-Christian culture and heritage they certainly do. I'm sure you would agree.
LYNN: Well, Mr. Dobbs, there's no doubt about the religious sentiment. And that's, of course, what's so troublesome about the chief justice here trying to promote this two-and-a-half ton monument because he is trying to impose his particular religious - and it is a religious view, on everyone making some feel like second-class citizens in their own courthouse.
DOBBS: John Giles, how do you react to that? Do you think Justice Roy Moore wants anybody to feel like a second-class citizen if they're not religious?
GILES: I think that's a ridiculous argument. The deal here is that this particular district judge on about 140 different occasions throughout the order said that the chief justice was establishing a religion by the placement of this monument. Yet he also said that he couldn't define what religion is. You know, there are several conflicting court orders all across this country dealing with the Ten Commandments issue. We just recently heard about the case up there in Chester, Pennsylvania, where the 3rd Circuit refused to hear the lower court's appeal because they felt like it was constitutional to have the Ten Commandments in the building. Here's the deal. The Ten Commandments were clearly argued that they're the cornerstone of the English common law, the English common law is the genesis of the U.S. Constitution. It is our moral code, it is our moral fabric, just like the Quran is the moral fabric...
LYNN: John, I...
(CROSSTALK)
GILES: Hang on, Barry. I was quiet.
(CROSSTALK)
LYNN: With all due respect to your interpretation, history...
DOBBS: John, let's hear Barry and then we'll come right back to you.
LYNN: Yes. The point is this is exactly the argument that was used now to the trial judge and to an appeals court, including one of the most conservative members of that federal appeals circuit. The Constitution is based not on the Ten Commandments. In fact, five - four or five, depending on what version of the Ten Commandments you believe in, are specifically...
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: Gentlemen, just a second, let me just set the record straight here and I think we can reach agreement. We can agree that the Ten Commandments are a fundamental element of the Judeo-Christian legal system, can we not - but that's a separate issue from it having religious connotations.
GILES: Absolutely, and Barry Lynn's attorneys in Montgomery failed to argue that issue in the court. I mean, it went uncontested.
DOBBS: Mr. Giles, let me ask you...
GILES: The other thing is...
LYNN: Wait a minute. We won, though, because courts cannot allow judges to decide which parts of the Constitution they're going to agree with. When a lawful court order comes down, sometimes they're against us. We...
DOBBS: Barry, let me give Mr. Giles...
LYNN: ... don't win every case we have in court, but we do abide by those decisions. And unfortunately, John...
DOBBS: Mr. Giles, please...
LYNN: ... you will not.
DOBBS: Barry, thank you very much. Mr. Giles, could you go ahead. You're going to get the last word here.
GILES: Yes, sir.
DOBBS: Your thoughts, is there - if you are denied in the courts, what first will be your reaction? What do you think is the appropriate framing of the issue and what do you expect to do next?
GILES: Well, one quick point is, and that is that this chief justice swore to uphold the Constitution of Alabama and the Constitution of the United States of America. And in the preamble of the Alabama Constitution, it says we must invoke the blessings and the guidance of almighty God. Our very preamble recognizes and acknowledges God almighty. And the federal judge in this case said this case comes down to one issue and one issue only: Can the state acknowledge God? And Chief Justice Moore is basically fulfilling his oath of office. The other front is, I think that we do have an opportunity with the United States Supreme Court, and then there was a case filed just today in the Mobile Southern District, and we feel like that that court, I believe they've already confirmed that they're going to hear the merits of this case on Wednesday, which gives us a couple days. So you know, this fight is far from over, Lou.
DOBBS: John Giles, thank you very much.
DOBBS: And Barry, let me ask one question here. You said this is an expression of religious belief and Justice Moore has said that. Who is really offended though here? Who is truly the - if you will, the plaintiff, it seems easy enough to ignore even a two-and-a-half ton monument if you wish to look at it as a religious icon, or to embrace it if you look at it as a cultural one?
LYNN: Well, actually, the judge said the only way to ignore a two-and-half ton monument in that position was to be blindfolded. And I think he's literally correct. It's not just offense, Mr. Dobbs, it's something more than that. It is a sense that some of the people that enter that courthouse who may not share the religious beliefs of Chief Justice Moore, former Chief Justice Moore, he's been suspended now, are in fact not really full-blooded participants in the judicial system in Alabama, that they're in a sense, second-class citizens in their own courthouse. That's what...
DOBBS: Barry, I have to break up. We're really out of time. We thank you very much, Barry Lynn. John Giles, as you say, John, you think this is going to continue, if it does, we hope you both will be back on this or other subjects. Thank you, gentlemen.
GILES: Thank you.
LYNN: Thank you.
DOBBS: Christine Romans next will have the market for us. Also ahead, good news for wine drinkers. Jan Hopkins will report on the wonderful benefits of red, red wine. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: The results of tonight's poll, how do you rate the schools in your community? Sixteen percent of you give A's, 25 percent B, 30 percent C, and 28 percent said F.
On Wall Street, stocks opened the last trading week of August little changed. The Dow down 31. The Nasdaq down 1. The S&P up almost two-thirds of a point. Christine Romans with the market.
CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN FINANCIAL NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Less than a billion shares. That's only happened three times this year.
DOBBS: Sounds like a day off.
ROMANS: Yes, exactly. Almost.
But take a look at the housing stocks. They had a pretty good day here. That's because there was a very strong housing number. Existing home sales, a record 6.12 million at an annual rate. That's up 5 percent despite higher mortgage rates.
And home prices, Lou, soared more than 12 percent year over year. That's the biggest gain in 23 years. The National Association of Realtors thinks this could be the crest of the big housing boom, though we've heard that before.
Also today, a bearish call on tech from Merrill Lynch analyst Richard Bernstein. He said the tech sector is completely devoid of value, burning cash instead of returning it to shareholders, and it's experienced terrific deflation. He prefers energy and industrials.
Meanwhile, data from Thomson Financial shows executives cashing out of the markets rally and barely buying company stock. Thomson's sell-buy ratio is 35 to one. That means $35 of insider sales for each dollar of insider buying. Craig Columbus over at Thomson said there's only been 14 other examples of an insider sell-buy ratio worse than 20, which is where we are now; 10 of those times the S&P 500 was lower six months later. So this bears watching.
DOBBS: Bears watching. But looks like a 50-50 proposition as an indicator. Christine, thanks. Christine Romans.
Finally tonight, we've heard from medical experts for years that drinking wine can be good for our health. But now a new study shows that red wine can actually help us live longer. Jan Hopkins reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: To life.
JAN HOPKINS, CNN FINANCIAL NEWS CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): This group is celebrating a birthday, but they could be toasting a new scientific discovery. Red wine contains a chemical that could be a fountain of youth.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is my 70th birthday.
J. HOPKINS (on camera): And you have...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I feel wonderful. Oh, yes. I do attribute it to that. Absolutely. The wine is -- white wine is good, too, but red wine is the best for your heart, for your health.
J. HOPKINS (voice-over): A new study published in "Nature" magazine mentions an enzyme in red wine that could extend life.
ROBERT ZIPKIN, PRESIDENT, BIOMIL RESEARCH LABORATORIES: This is the breakthrough, really, that a small molecule, a drug-like substance, can affect lifespan of various organisms.
J. HOPKINS: It's just one more piece of evidence that should increase sales of red wine.
BART HOPKINS, 6T WINES & SPIRITS: It seems like there's a new study coming out every couple of weeks and they're all very positive. But yes, it does have positive ramifications. We see people coming in, they're more interested in the health benefits of wine.
J. HOPKINS: Restaurants are already seeing increased interest in red wine. It goes with the Atkins diet.
RON DIDNER, GEN. MANAGER, CAFE DES ARTISTES: There has definitely been a distinctive push to the red meat or the main protein with fat, less starch, and as well as a red wine also to help induce, I guess, digestion.
J. HOPKINS: But the benefits of drinking red wine may also be because of a more relaxed lifestyle.
CHRIS CHIAPPARELLI, BEVERAGE DIRECTOR, CAFE DES ARTISTES: If you drink red wine, enjoy your meal, you'll be more healthy.
J. HOPKINS: At a leisurely lunch in New York's romantic Cafe des Artistes, customers were quick to credit red wine with turning back the clock.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We're from New Orleans, and wine is a part of every meal, and I attribute my advanced age without any sickness to drinking wine every day.
J. HOPKINS (on camera): The new studies showing increased health benefits for drinking red wine bring new meaning to the phrase "salut."
Jan Hopkins, CNN, New York.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: Salut, and elegantly done, Jan.
That's our show tonight. Thanks for being with us. For all of us here, good night from New York. "LIVE FROM THE HEADLINES" with Anderson Cooper coming up next.
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LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR: Tonight: Gasoline prices around the country are running at record highs. Bill Tucker reports.
The Ten Commandments controversy. Is the debate over a 2.5 ton monument about demagoguery, tyranny of the minority, or the Constitution? We'll have a live report.
Our special report tonight: "Making the Grade," why our schools are failing too many students.
And red, red wine, there's new evidence that it's not only good for you, but slows aging as well.
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT for Monday, August 25. Here now, Lou Dobbs.
DOBBS: Good evening.
Gasoline prices tonight at the highest level they've ever been. According to the Energy Department, the average price for a gallon of regular gasoline now costs about $1.75. That's 12 percent increase over the past week. The previous record was $1.73, a price recorded just before the war against Saddam Hussein earlier this year.
This latest increase in gasoline prices comes just before the long Labor Day weekend. It's been fueled by a mixture of lower gasoline inventories, a ruptured gasoline pipeline in Arizona, and the August 14 blackout.
Bill Tucker has the report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BILL TUCKER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Gasoline prices are at record levels. According to the Energy Information Agency, the national average for a gallon of unleaded gas was $1.74 in the latest reporting week.
A rupture in the supply pipeline to Arizona resulted in long lines at gas stations. And drivers in Phoenix paid $2.09 for a gallon of unleaded. In Scottsdale, a gallon set drivers back $2.13. Those are the highest prices ever recorded by AAA in the state. But Arizona's not where you'll find the highest prices. Broken down by region, that distinction belongs to California, where a gallon of gasoline cost over $2, up more than 50 cents from a year ago. But not everyone is shocked by the prices.
KAREN MATUSIC, SENIOR EDITOR, ENERGY INTELLIGENCE: When you look at European prices that are about $5 a gallon for a country like Norway that produces oil, is a net exporter of oil, don't forget that the price in 1981 is the equivalent in today's dollars of $2.50 a gallon. So people can't cry too much yet.
TUCKER: Maybe they shouldn't, but they do. And they're also driving more. Demand has risen in the last three weeks and isn't expected to ease just yet.
ROBERT SINCLAIR, AAA OF NEW YORK: This coming weekend, overall, we're thinking about 36 million will be traveling. And about 34 million of those will be traveling by motor vehicle. And that's the highest it's been since 1995.
TUCKER: Complicating the equation is reformulated blends, which reduce refinery capacity. But relief may be coming after Labor Day.
FREDERICK LEUFFER, BEAR STEARNS: No, I don't think we'll have to get used to this price. I think that we'll probably, in the short term, see a little more strength. And then I think it will correct fairly significantly. And I wouldn't look for this sort of pricing to be normalized.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
TUCKER: The final factor behind rising prices is the shutdown of seven refineries in the Northeast because of the blackout. All but one of those refineries are now back online -- Lou.
DOBBS: The role of Iraq in this, anything at all?
TUCKER: No, nothing to do with it at all.
DOBBS: I always love it when experts start comparing prices here against Europe. The reason they have $5 gasoline is because they choose to tax gasoline at that level. Taxes play any role here?
TUCKER: Taxes are big here, but that's not what's behind this, Lou.
DOBBS: Has there been a tax increase?
TUCKER: There's not been a tax increase.
DOBBS: That's what I'm asking. All right, Bill Tucker, thank you.
TUCKER: You're welcome.
DOBBS: Hurricane Ignacio is pounding California's Baja Peninsula tonight. Ignacio is lashing the Peninsula's eastern coast with heavy rain and winds, forcing thousands of people to evacuate. Officials warn that rainfall amounts could reach as much as 20 inches and likely to bring mudslides and flash floods through the area.
Ignacio is the Eastern Pacific's first hurricane of the season. And it's expected to dissipate as it moves north. There is a possibility it could bring some rain to Arizona and New Mexico.
A constitutional battle continues to rage in Alabama. A 2.5-ton monument of the Ten Commandments is expected to be removed from Alabama's highest court as early as this week. Dozens of demonstrators still surround the monument, praying that it will not be removed. Others are taking legal action to keep the commandments in place.
David Mattingly is in Montgomery, Alabama, and has the latest for us -- David.
DAVID MATTINGLY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, Justice Roy Moore came out here outside the judicial building in the sweltering summer heat to speak to some very enthusiastic supporters, who refuse to leave the steps of this building.
His lawyers say he's going to continue fighting. He says That they are going to go back to the Supreme Court with another petition. They are also going to vigorously defend him before a state judiciary board.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHIEF JUSTICE ROY MOORE, ALABAMA SUPREME COURT: Christians are offended at many things in today's society. They're offended at abortion, at sodomy in our streets, at kids getting killed in school. And yet we seem to be ashamed of standing up and speaking the truth, of acknowledging that we are created in the image of God and endowed by him with our rights of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MATTINGLY: Earlier today, barricades went up around the glass doors of the judicial building. According to the building manager, this was for the security of the building and the safety of the people out here.
They're worried that, if someone manages to break those glass doors, it could do someone some very serious harm. But, for now, the monument hasn't moved. And there's no official word about how, when, or where it might be moved any time in the near future. But for right now, Lou, this is what's going on, people taking a break from the heat of the day. You see all these empty seats. Pretty soon, people will be coming back after they've gone somewhere to get something cool to drink, maybe a shower.
They're going to come back here for a rally this evening, the same pattern that we've seen ever since last Wednesday, when that midnight deadline came and went and the monument did not move -- Lou.
DOBBS: David, we have shown a number of demonstrators there, all of them peaceful. Give us a sense of the proportion, those, if you will, in support of the monument and those opposed.
MATTINGLY: Out here on the steps, at any time, you will find dozens of people out here. The number will grow in the evening, as people get off work, when they come out here for the organized rallies.
Today, there was about a half-dozen people across the street carrying signs demonstrating in favor of the monument being moved. But at this point, if you're just looking, comparing numbers, the numbers of people protesting the movement of the monument greatly outnumber the people who are defending the movement.
DOBBS: David Mattingly, we thank you very much, live from Montgomery.
We'll have much more on this Ten Commandments controversy later in the show, when I'll be joined by Barry Lynn, who's the executive director of Americans United for the Separation of Church and State, and John Giles, the president of the Christian Coalition in Alabama. That's still ahead here tonight.
In Massachusetts, prosecutors today said the prisoner suspected of murdering defrocked priest John Geoghan had planned that killing for weeks. Inmate Joseph Druce is serving a life sentence for killing a gay man 15 years ago.
Jason Carroll is here and joins us with the very latest -- Jason.
JASON CARROLL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Lou, prosecutors describe Joseph Druce, the inmate accused of murdering Geoghan, as a man filled with a longstanding hatred of homosexuals.
He was housed in the same prison unit as John Geoghan, the defrocked priest convicted of molesting a young boy. Boston's district attorney says Druce had been planning Geoghan's murder for more than a month, using a book, a nail clipper, and a toothbrush to jam Geoghan's cell door.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHN CONTE, WORCESTER COUNTY DA: The defendant tied Geoghan's hands behind his back with a T-shirt, threw him on the floor, took socks which he had previously been stretching for some time and used them to strangle.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CARROLL: The DA says Druce confessed to beating Geoghan, then using a pillowcase to strangle him, telling authorities getting Geoghan was like getting a prize.
This is the second prison facility where Geoghan has served in Massachusetts. The first, in Concord, he felt threatened by inmates and guards, that according to a prison advocacy group which represented him.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JIM PINGEON, MASS. CORRECTIONAL LEGAL SERVICES: There were guards who were urinating in his cell, guards who were defecating in his cell, guards who would shove him in the halls, an officer who would hand out newspaper articles about his crime. His nickname among the officers was Satan or Lucifer. He was sort of constantly experiencing this kind of harassment and abuse.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CARROLL: Representatives from the Concord facility did not return our calls. Geoghan was moved to the Souza facility, where he said he hoped things would be better -- Lou.
DOBBS: Jason, this investigation of the killing, there's no possibility here of any greater sentence than life in prison, should charges be brought.
CARROLL: That is correct.
Already, Druce is serving a life sentence for killing someone else. And so, at this point, this is a man who is already serving a sentence. So what would happen is, they would just have to add another sentence on top of that.
DOBBS: Jason Carroll, thank you very much.
Still ahead here: high-profile support for California's governor and one of his most popular opponents. Bob Franken will report from Los Angeles on the heated recall race that has a number of interesting new developments today.
Also ahead: Israel wants Iraqi oil and a pipeline to carry it. Is that such a bright idea? Kitty Pilgrim will have the report.
And failing our children, American schools in crisis. Lisa Sylvester reports from Washington. And we'll be joined by the secretary of the Department of Education, Rod Paige.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: A new poll shows support for replacing Governor Gray Davis is declining. And Arnold Schwarzenegger is about to pick up a major endorsement.
Bob Franken has the latest on the recall race from Los Angeles -- Bob.
BOB FRANKEN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Where do we start?
First, with -- we'll do it in the order you did, Lou. First, the poll, "Los Angeles Times" poll. As you pointed out, Gray Davis is steadily improving, to the point where only 50 percent of those who were asked, likely voters, only 50 percent say they support the recall; 45 percent say they are opposed to the recall. That's an improvement over the 58 to 60 percent that had been cited earlier.
Now, as for the Democratic replacement, in case there is a replacement or the replacement, period, the man who is now leading by a substantial amount in that "L.A. Times" poll is the lieutenant governor, Cruz Bustamante, 35 percent over Arnold Schwarzenegger's 22 percent. Now, that was before Bill Simon, the Republican, pulled out of the race, but he was only getting about a 6 percent return. So it really wouldn't have made the difference.
Bustamante is now the man to beat if in fact Gray Davis does not succeed the recall. That is what's going on as far as the horse race is concerned -- actually, the horse races. Now, within the Republican Party, there's an effort to try and solidify the -- Bill Simon has pulled out, as we pointed out. Arnold Schwarzenegger is now starting to generate some support. Rudy Giuliani, former mayor of New York City, considered a Republican icon, is going to be endorsing Arnold Schwarzenegger, according to sources.
Now, he's out of the country, and we have no word yet on exactly what a campaign appearance schedule might be. We're also told that the governor of New York, Pataki, is planning a fund-raiser for Schwarzenegger, $1,000 a pop. That is going to be scheduled in the next short while. So Schwarzenegger is now starting to get the established Republican support, which raises the question, what about that other Republican in the race who's siphoning a lot of support away from Schwarzenegger, among conservatives in particular, Tom McClintock?
Well, he is up to 12 percent and might pick up some of the Simon support. So any efforts to get him to back down have been met thus far with an absolute, steadfast no -- Lou.
DOBBS: Bob, Peter Ueberroth also with significant name recognition. Where does he stand now?
FRANKEN: He stands quite low in the polls, 7 percent, as a matter of fact. He hasn't really caught fire.
This is a man who has decided to be counterintuitive and run a campaign that is purely based on substance, no star power, very little organization these days. And thus far, it hasn't really gotten any traction.
DOBBS: Well, as I do the quick math here, when we add up Bill Simon, Peter Ueberroth, and Tom McClintock, the state senator, we come up with a number just about equaling that of Arnold Schwarzenegger.
FRANKEN: That's quite interesting. The Schwarzenegger amounts would of course benefit if one of those dropped out and placed the support there. And, yes, that combination might do it.
But that all means good news for the Democrats, because, if in fact the Republican Party is fractured, as it looks like it is right now, the beneficiary would be the Democrats, either Gray Davis beating the recall or Cruz Bustamante winning as the alternative candidate. DOBBS: Well, with the recall support slipping, at least in this one poll and with the fractured Republican Party there, is there a move on the part of the Republican Party in California to try to, if you will, consolidate their candidates?
FRANKEN: You bet there is.
As a matter of fact, it is widely believed that the departure of Bill Simon was part of that campaign. Now comes the question, will the principal person, that is to say Tom McClintock, can he be persuaded to get out? He is somebody who is known to defy party leadership in the past and could be expected to at least make it difficult for them for quite a while.
DOBBS: Bob Franken, thank you, reporting live from Los Angeles.
When we continue: The shuttle Columbia, just exactly what went wrong? Miles O'Brien will report on NASA's investigation and final report.
And the Ten Commandments controversy in Alabama pitting states rights against federal law. Two experts will share their drastically different views on this case.
And Iraqi oil for Israel, a controversial proposal meeting with stiff resistance. Kitty Pilgrim will have the report.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: The final report on the space shuttle Columbia disaster will be released to the public tomorrow. It is being promoted as a hard-hitting look at exactly what went wrong.
Tonight, Miles O'Brien takes us inside that investigation and tells us how NASA plans to use the findings of this report -- Miles.
MILES O'BRIEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, there's an awful lot about this report that's coming out tomorrow that we already know, because the man in charge, Retired Admiral Hal Gehman, has released recommendations as the board has discovered them along the course of this seven-month investigation.
Let's go through those recommendations first. And then we can talk a little bit about what else this report might say. First off, this issue of foam which struck the wing of Columbia 81 seconds after launch, this test July 7 that you see right there was very definitive, made it very clear that foam could cause a fatal breach. They will ask NASA to conduct more thorough inspections of that carbon material which is on the leading edge of the wing. NASA has agreed to do so.
Another recommendation which has come forth from the Gehman board, using spy satellites and spy telescopes routinely and frequently to try to catch glimpses of the shuttle in orbit. NASA has agreed to that. In addition to that, Gehman would like NASA to come up with a way to train and equip astronauts to conduct repair space walks in space during a mission, if need be. That's going to be a kind of challenging one. NASA is trying to work on that one right now.
In addition, some other issues that Gehman has brought up, the use of cameras during launch, like this one you see here, which showed that foam striking the leading edge of the left wing. There were actually some cameras that were inoperative that day. And the Gehman board is asking NASA to beef up its camera coverage of launches and, in addition, provide camera coverage of that external tank, that big orange tank, dropping away from the space shuttle orbiter, as well as the underside of the orbiter itself.
The administrator of NASA, who spoke to me exclusively yesterday, says he's ready to embrace this report lock, stock and barrel.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEAN O'KEEFE, NASA ADMINISTRATOR: They've made a determination. So, therefore, by definition, the recommendations are sound. They have spent all that time doing it. And I'm not sure the passage of more time would have made any difference one way or the other. But, by definition, we will not have a debate or argument about which recommendations are meritorious vs. others. They're all.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O'BRIEN: The real issue, however, which remains and the difficult question for NASA to answer is, how could a preventable accident like this have happened, when the best and brightest minds were constantly thinking about safety?
A lot of it has to do with just how organizations operate or don't operate well and human nature. And that's a very difficult thing to change, as you know, Lou.
DOBBS: A very difficult thing to change, and one might say, I think with some safety, at NASA sometimes more so than other places.
Did you ask Sean O'Keefe, about his early -- and, as it turns out now with these findings, unfortunate reference -- to foamologists. The initial reflex, as you recall, Miles, because you were there, on the part of the program director and others, who said there's no way it could be the foam. And it turns out that that is the incipient cause of this disaster.
O'BRIEN: Yes.
He basically told me, Lou, that he is a kind of person who doesn't dwell on those sorts of things. But there was a little bit of wincing there as he said that. Clearly, those early statements from himself and at the time, the shuttle program manager, Ron Dittemore, indicating that it couldn't possibly be foam are statements they probably would like to take back. But that's the way things go in these sorts of things.
And, clearly, the foam just didn't register with them as a possible concern.
DOBBS: Well, Miles, we thank you very much, Miles, for all of your reporting throughout this disaster, from the earliest moments until tonight. Thank you very much, Miles O'Brien.
Miles will have an exclusive interview with NASA Administrator Sean O'Keefe. Sean will be -- Sean O'Keefe and Miles O'Brien will be joining "NEWSNIGHT WITH AARON BROWN" tonight at 10:00 p.m. Please catch them right here on CNN.
When we continue: The commander of U.S. troops in Iraq says the number of troops there now is the right number. Ben Wedeman is live in Baghdad with the story.
And Iraqi oil for Israel. The Israeli government has a plan, and the world perhaps waiting to see some details. Kitty Pilgrim will report.
And drink to your health and for your health, a new report on the benefits of drinking red wine. The benefits are substantial. Jan Hopkins will have the story for us.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Another American soldier was killed today in Iraq, although not by hostile fire, bringing the total number of American fatalities since May 1 to 138. The news was followed today by the announcement that the Red Cross is reducing its presence in Baghdad.
Ben Wedeman reports from Baghdad -- Ben.
BEN WEDEMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Lou.
The Red Cross announced today that they would be reducing their non-Iraqi staff in Iraq, after receiving what one official at the Red Cross called credible knowledge, in their words, that the organization could be the target of an attack similar to that that happened on the United Nations a week ago.
Now, this same official said that they would restore their numbers in Iraq if the situation were to stabilize. Meanwhile, at the site of the United Nations headquarters that was bombed last week, it was announced that recovery and search operations had officially come to an end. According to a U.N. official there, they have at this point a list of 20 confirmed dead at the site. However, they continue to go through the rubble and search for remains and do forensic tests on those remains they have already to find out if there may be others who were killed in that blast.
Also today, the United Nations handed over to Iraqi families the bodies of seven Iraqis who were killed in that blast. Now, the whole question of those bodies had become something of a contentious issue, because their families had wanted to give them a proper burial as soon as possible. Now, meanwhile, to the south of Baghdad in the Shiite holy city of Najaf, thousands of mourners came out to mourn the dead, the death of three Iraqis who had served as bodyguards and staff members to Ayatollah Mohammad Said al Hakim, who is a prominent Shiite cleric who was the apparent target of an assassination attempt yesterday, just underscoring, Lou, yet again how unstable other parts of the country are -- back to you.
DOBBS: Ben, thank you -- Ben Wedeman reporting from Baghdad.
Fighting in southeastern Afghanistan as well today. At least 14 Taliban fighters were killed by Afghan troops backed up by U.S. warplanes. The battle occurred approximately 200 miles south of Kabul. And according to Afghan officials, more than 40 Taliban guerrillas were killed in that firefight. The fighting comes in the wake of a recent upsurge of attacks by the Taliban, including one in which an American member of special operations was killed last week.
At least 44 people are dead tonight after a pair of car bombings in Mumbai, India. At least 115 people were injured after the attacks in the city formerly known as Bombay. Police say the bombs were hidden in the trunks of two taxi cabs. One of the taxis exploded at the popular Gateway of India landmark. The other struck a crowded jewelry district. Hours later, authorities found nine detonators on a train track 50 miles north of what was once Bombay. No one has claimed responsibility for the attacks.
National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice today said, recent violence between Israelis and Palestinians is not stopping progress toward peace. In a speech to veterans, Rice said President Bush remains committed to the road map. It comes as Palestinian militant group Hamas today vowed revenge for an Israeli attack that killed four of its members.
Meanwhile, the Israeli government says it wants a pipeline to supply it with oil from Iraq. An Israeli minister says he will bring up the issue of building that pipeline next month in talks in Washington. Is that such a good idea?
Kitty Pilgrim reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KITTY PILGRIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Building an oil pipeline from Iraq to Israel? The Israeli minister of infrastructure is talking it up, saying he wants to bring up the plan next month in Washington.
According to some published reports, it's an idea that is floating around the Pentagon, something the Pentagon today called one of the many false reports out there.
AMB. DAVID MACK, MIDDLE EAST INSTITUTE: In my view this was a wish fulfillment of sorts, wishful thinking on the part of some people in Israel. JAMES CARAFANO, HERITAGE FOUNDATION: Shipping oil to Israel is kind of an Islamist terrorist dream. I mean, it will be the target for every wacko in the Middle East.
PILGRIM: Actually, a pipeline like that existed decades ago during the British era, but it was closed in 1948. A new pipeline, a larger one, would theoretically run more than 350 miles, taking oil from Iraq's northern fields of Kirkuk through Mosul to Jordan and then to Israel.
Getting it done would be a geopolitical nightmare. For one thing, it would strain relations with Turkey, which benefits from its own pipeline with Iraq. Israel says it would cut the price it pays for oil by 20 percent. But some experts say it wouldn't make sense commercially to bring oil over from Iraq to the Mediterranean, where prices are already low.
GEORGE BERANEK, PFC ENERGY: That's another reason that, frankly, I can see the Iraqis not being very enthused about this pipeline. They're sending a bunch of oil to a low-value market.
PILGRIM: Then there is security. Iraq's pipelines have already been under numerous attack. The most recent, the pipeline to Turkey was damaged a little more than a week ago.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: In terms of military effort to protect it, return on investment many experts we talked to say it makes little sense. But the basic bottom line is the Iraqis are the ones who are to decide what's to be done with their oil production -- Lou.
DOBBS: I think at best this is a highly questionable proposal. And in particular when you consider that sabotage to the pipeline running to Turkey, Turkey is predominantly Islamic. Israel cannot make the same claim.
PILGRIM: It's certainly not a good test case in terms of sustained attacks on that pipeline.
DOBBS: Kitty, thank you very much. Kitty Pilgrim.
PILGRIM: Well, tonight's quote on the media's influence on the perception of progress in Iraq, "With 24 hour news, each setback in Iraq is repeated and repeated and repeated, as if it were 10 or 20 setbacks, and the progress that is being made -- and let there be no doubt, solid is being made -- is often deemed not sufficiently newsworthy to report." That is from Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld.
Coming up next, "Failing in the Classroom." Why American schools in many cases simply don't make the grade. Lisa Sylvester reports from Washington.
And we'll be joined by Rod Paige, the Secretary of the Department of Education. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: As we approach the end of summer, students across the country getting ready to return to their classrooms. Tonight, in the first of a series of special reports this week, we take a look at how our children are being educated and at some of the breakdowns in the system.
Lisa Sylvester reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LISA SYLVESTER, CNNfn CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): As school starts around the country, parents have high hopes for their children. But at the start of the new year, it's the nation's education system that's lagging behind.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We've tried a lot of reforms. We've tried a lot of things differently. Scores are flat. The rest of the world is surpassing us. And the schools are not effective.
SYLVESTER: American students' reading levels rank below Canada, the United Kingdom, Japan, and France. High school seniors' interest in school is waning. And half of the nation's middle and high school teachers are not highly qualified to teach their subjects.
Recent education reform has focused on setting standards, testing students annually and holding administrators accountable for results. Under the No Child Left Behind Act signed by President Bush last year, if schools fail to meet targets two years in a row, parents can pull them out and place them in another public school.
But it's up to states to establish their own tests and standards. So each state can set the bar as high or as low as it wants.
RON SKINNER, "EDUCATION WEEK": It does call into question where the starting line is for this and where -- and frankly, where the finish line is, too, because you know, if the states are deciding what's proficient, then that's going to be, you know, it's going to be completely up to them.
SYLVESTER (on camera): Other countries have a national curriculum, with students in each grade level all learning the same thing. But the United States does not. And researchers say it would be very difficult to establish one in this country.
JEAN JONSON, PUBLIAGENDA.ORG: People trust their local school people, local police, local whatever more than they trust far off government in Washington. So there is this kind of preference for local control and local decision-making.
SYLVESTER (voice-over): Teachers say the problem is not the curriculum but the funding gap between affluent and low-income schools. State and local communities pay for 93 cents of every dollar spent on education. That means poorer school districts have fewer resources than wealthier ones. The inequity creates a learning gap.
SANDRA FELDMAN, AMERICAN FEDERATION OF TEACHERS: The children who are the neediest and who really need smaller class sizes, who need the best-trained teachers, who need technology, who need the support in so many ways are not getting it because their local communities can't afford it.
SYLVESTER: Everyone involved agrees closing the gap is vital if the United States is to maintain its competitive edge. But how to get there is a question no one can easily answer.
Lisa Sylvester, CNN, Forestville, Maryland.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: Well, the man who is responsible for coming up with as many answers as possible at the federal level joins us tonight to talk about the state of our educational system, the Secretary of the Department of Education, Rod Paige.
Good to have you with us, Mr. Secretary.
ROD PAIGE, SECRETARY OF EDUCATION: Thank you. Good to be here.
DOBBS: The issue of education, the fact that our students do not read or perform at the levels of a number of other countries, including Canada, Japan, much of the OECD countries in Europe -- is that reflective of a significant problem, or is it a difference without tremendous significance, in your view?
PAIGE: Well, I think it is a significant problem. But one thing we've got to take into consideration is that we have islands of excellence all across the United States. There are some great schools across the United States. And they're great because they have great teachers and great principals and great public support there.
But what we need to do is to make sure that that is the case all over. And our problem is having a system that works. We've got a lot of schools that work.
DOBBS: A system. And it becomes one of those words -- the educational system. What we really mean are schools. Schools imply community and localism. Is there anything that suggests to you a crying need to create a national curriculum?
PAIGE: Well, you know, I think one could only imagine the type of bureaucracy, federal bureaucracy that will be required to manage a federalized education system. The founders of our system didn't believe that was a good idea, and nor do I.
We have a system that holds the states responsible. Our Constitution holds the states responsible. And this system can work. I think what is missing is contained in the No Child Left Behind Act. The president proposed and the Congress passed a bill that I think farms the foundation for the change that we need. DOBBS: And that foundation, is it rooted, in your judgment, in great greater activism on the part of the local folks in their respective communities getting involved with the educational systems? Does it address, in your judgment, adequately the issue of teacher pay, teacher excellence?
PAIGE: Yes, I think it involves all of that, but more than anything it involves accountability. It involves being responsible.
I just saw in the report there the discussion about resources. We've been arguing for years that this is a resource issue. This is not a resource issue. Obviously, you could use more funds everywhere.
DOBBS: Right.
PAIGE: But there are examples of places where we have very high average student per pupil expenditure, yet they're doing poorly. It's not a resource issue.
DOBBS: In fact, the resources where they are the greatest, in nearly every instance seems to reflect lower performance on a mean basis.
PAIGE: That is true as often as it is untrue.
This nation spends $500 million -- $500 billion a year, local, state, and federal money, on K-12 education. Is it unreasonable to require accountability for those funds? That's the issue, I think.
DOBBS: We talk about -- and Lisa Sylvester just reported and you mentioned the issue of teachers. The pay, as I was mentioning. All of these hosts of issues, the fact is that most communities, I hear educators talk about the involvement of parents, getting the commitments from parents with their children and against all of the issue, two income earners in the family, working hard, not having the time. How important -- how much importance should we place on the role of the parent and the necessity of getting involved in their local schools?
PAIGE: Well, I think it's very important, and we should put a lot of emphasis there. But if that does not occur, we can't use that as an excuse.
The school has to make the difference. The school can make the difference. All across the United States there are schools that are making a difference with students who need the kind of support from parents but are not getting it.
DOBBS: The voucher system. What we are seeing now and increasingly every report that we're looking at. Where there is competition we are seeing schools, public schools improve simply because students have a choice. I'm not suggesting nor taking a position here on vouchers. But the fact is where we see competition it's making a difference.
PAIGE: Well, we all know monopolies don't work, don't we? (CROSSTALK)
PAIGE: ... take that in schooling. It doesn't work there, either. So when we have choice, we see growth in the public school system. I believe that the public school system can improve and can take on any competition that comes. But they've got to be freed from the monopoly that we've got them embedded in right now, so that the innovation and creativity can come forth. These systems can produce.
DOBBS: And if you had one opportunity to issue one edict, one fiat from your office and it would be carried out religiously and immediately across the nation's schools, what would it be?
PAIGE: A highly qualified teacher in every classroom, every child having a teacher that is highly qualified in that subject, and who cares and who loves to teach. That I think is a big key.
DOBBS: And a wonderful first fiat there.
PAIGE: We have to do something about compensation for teachers as well.
DOBBS: Absolutely. Secretary Paige, we thank you very much for being with us.
PAIGE: Thank you.
DOBBS: Thanks.
That brings us to the subject of tonight's poll. Our question, how do you rate the schools in your community? We've made it simple enough for even television journalists. A, B, C, no D's, just an F. Cast your vote at cnn.com/lou. We'll bring you the results later in the show.
Still ahead here, is it a question of states' rights, or is it a violation of civil rights? Two leading experts share their sharply different views on a monument of and to the Ten Commandments. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Now the Alabama battle over a monument to the Ten Commandments could be coming to a head, if not a resolution. The two- and-a-half ton statue can be removed as early as this week under a federal court order. Joining me now with different views on this issue is Barry Lynn, he's the executive director of Americans United for the Separation of Church and State. He joins us from Washington, D.C. We're joined tonight by John Giles, who is the president of the Christian Coalition in Alabama, he joins us from Montgomery.
Let me, if I may, turn first to John Giles there in Montgomery. This looks like it's over, that the monument will be removed as a result of the court order. How do you feel about that?
JOHN GILES, CHRISTIAN COALITION OF ALABAMA: Well, Lou, this is far from being over. The chief justice has filed a writ of - or however you say it, to the United States Supreme Court. People are coming from all over the country to show their support for the chief justice and for the Ten Commandments. You know what's amazing about this whole situation is that 77 percent of Alabamans want to see this monument kept in the building. And we feel like the law is on the chief justice's side. So this court battle is far from over. And I think the most ironic thing here overall is that our nation's highest court, the nine Supreme Court justices and the Supreme Court itself is in conflict with this lower court order because they too have the Ten Commandments in their building.
DOBBS: Barry Lynn, you are - how do you feel about that apparent inconsistency, outright contradiction?
BARRY LYNN, AMERICANS UNITED FOR SEPARATION OF CHURCH & STATE: Well, I don't think it's a contradiction because frankly it can't really read anything about the Ten Commandments by looking at this essentially decorative painting of Moses, several Roman emperors, Hammurabi and other famous law-givers. But I do think the legal case is over. And I think John and his supporters ought to see the same light at the end of the tunnel that I do, that is four federal judges have now said this monument must be removed from the rotunda of the judicial building right there in the capital of Alabama, and it will be removed. I wouldn't be at all surprised if it didn't go out tonight. I respect the fact that people have a right to file lawsuits, but frankly, the Supreme Court of the United States is not going to look at another petition from Judge Roy Moore because he has absolutely indicated complete defiance of federal court orders. He only obeys the ones that he's agreeing with, and that is literally no way to run a country or the state of Alabama.
DOBBS: Let me ask you this, Barry, this is a two-and-half ton monument. It includes a number of references and famous jurisprudence expressions coming from the Judiciary Act, as you see there, from 1789, "so help me God." It included the 1950s change in the Pledge of Allegiance, "one nation, indivisible, under God." Why in the world are those things not objectionable to you and to your organization, as well as this monolith in Montgomery?
LYNN: Well, some of them are objectionable because I don't think it's - it's never a good thing for church or for state to have a mix of the two where the religious organizations become dependent on the largess of government to promote religion. I think religion ought to be promoted by those who believe in it, by the priests, the rabbis, the ministers, the imams of the country. We don't really need the assistance of the judges in Alabama or any other political figure. I think some of those statements that you just cited, of course, go back - are really barely references to anything religious in the first place. They're kind of...
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: Wait, wait, wait, Barry, those are - "so help me God" is rather religious. We can create artifice and constructions, and I've heard this said about "in God we trust." I've seen the legal artifice created even by a number of courts. But religious connotations and merging from a rich Judeo-Christian culture and heritage they certainly do. I'm sure you would agree.
LYNN: Well, Mr. Dobbs, there's no doubt about the religious sentiment. And that's, of course, what's so troublesome about the chief justice here trying to promote this two-and-a-half ton monument because he is trying to impose his particular religious - and it is a religious view, on everyone making some feel like second-class citizens in their own courthouse.
DOBBS: John Giles, how do you react to that? Do you think Justice Roy Moore wants anybody to feel like a second-class citizen if they're not religious?
GILES: I think that's a ridiculous argument. The deal here is that this particular district judge on about 140 different occasions throughout the order said that the chief justice was establishing a religion by the placement of this monument. Yet he also said that he couldn't define what religion is. You know, there are several conflicting court orders all across this country dealing with the Ten Commandments issue. We just recently heard about the case up there in Chester, Pennsylvania, where the 3rd Circuit refused to hear the lower court's appeal because they felt like it was constitutional to have the Ten Commandments in the building. Here's the deal. The Ten Commandments were clearly argued that they're the cornerstone of the English common law, the English common law is the genesis of the U.S. Constitution. It is our moral code, it is our moral fabric, just like the Quran is the moral fabric...
LYNN: John, I...
(CROSSTALK)
GILES: Hang on, Barry. I was quiet.
(CROSSTALK)
LYNN: With all due respect to your interpretation, history...
DOBBS: John, let's hear Barry and then we'll come right back to you.
LYNN: Yes. The point is this is exactly the argument that was used now to the trial judge and to an appeals court, including one of the most conservative members of that federal appeals circuit. The Constitution is based not on the Ten Commandments. In fact, five - four or five, depending on what version of the Ten Commandments you believe in, are specifically...
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: Gentlemen, just a second, let me just set the record straight here and I think we can reach agreement. We can agree that the Ten Commandments are a fundamental element of the Judeo-Christian legal system, can we not - but that's a separate issue from it having religious connotations.
GILES: Absolutely, and Barry Lynn's attorneys in Montgomery failed to argue that issue in the court. I mean, it went uncontested.
DOBBS: Mr. Giles, let me ask you...
GILES: The other thing is...
LYNN: Wait a minute. We won, though, because courts cannot allow judges to decide which parts of the Constitution they're going to agree with. When a lawful court order comes down, sometimes they're against us. We...
DOBBS: Barry, let me give Mr. Giles...
LYNN: ... don't win every case we have in court, but we do abide by those decisions. And unfortunately, John...
DOBBS: Mr. Giles, please...
LYNN: ... you will not.
DOBBS: Barry, thank you very much. Mr. Giles, could you go ahead. You're going to get the last word here.
GILES: Yes, sir.
DOBBS: Your thoughts, is there - if you are denied in the courts, what first will be your reaction? What do you think is the appropriate framing of the issue and what do you expect to do next?
GILES: Well, one quick point is, and that is that this chief justice swore to uphold the Constitution of Alabama and the Constitution of the United States of America. And in the preamble of the Alabama Constitution, it says we must invoke the blessings and the guidance of almighty God. Our very preamble recognizes and acknowledges God almighty. And the federal judge in this case said this case comes down to one issue and one issue only: Can the state acknowledge God? And Chief Justice Moore is basically fulfilling his oath of office. The other front is, I think that we do have an opportunity with the United States Supreme Court, and then there was a case filed just today in the Mobile Southern District, and we feel like that that court, I believe they've already confirmed that they're going to hear the merits of this case on Wednesday, which gives us a couple days. So you know, this fight is far from over, Lou.
DOBBS: John Giles, thank you very much.
DOBBS: And Barry, let me ask one question here. You said this is an expression of religious belief and Justice Moore has said that. Who is really offended though here? Who is truly the - if you will, the plaintiff, it seems easy enough to ignore even a two-and-a-half ton monument if you wish to look at it as a religious icon, or to embrace it if you look at it as a cultural one?
LYNN: Well, actually, the judge said the only way to ignore a two-and-half ton monument in that position was to be blindfolded. And I think he's literally correct. It's not just offense, Mr. Dobbs, it's something more than that. It is a sense that some of the people that enter that courthouse who may not share the religious beliefs of Chief Justice Moore, former Chief Justice Moore, he's been suspended now, are in fact not really full-blooded participants in the judicial system in Alabama, that they're in a sense, second-class citizens in their own courthouse. That's what...
DOBBS: Barry, I have to break up. We're really out of time. We thank you very much, Barry Lynn. John Giles, as you say, John, you think this is going to continue, if it does, we hope you both will be back on this or other subjects. Thank you, gentlemen.
GILES: Thank you.
LYNN: Thank you.
DOBBS: Christine Romans next will have the market for us. Also ahead, good news for wine drinkers. Jan Hopkins will report on the wonderful benefits of red, red wine. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: The results of tonight's poll, how do you rate the schools in your community? Sixteen percent of you give A's, 25 percent B, 30 percent C, and 28 percent said F.
On Wall Street, stocks opened the last trading week of August little changed. The Dow down 31. The Nasdaq down 1. The S&P up almost two-thirds of a point. Christine Romans with the market.
CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN FINANCIAL NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Less than a billion shares. That's only happened three times this year.
DOBBS: Sounds like a day off.
ROMANS: Yes, exactly. Almost.
But take a look at the housing stocks. They had a pretty good day here. That's because there was a very strong housing number. Existing home sales, a record 6.12 million at an annual rate. That's up 5 percent despite higher mortgage rates.
And home prices, Lou, soared more than 12 percent year over year. That's the biggest gain in 23 years. The National Association of Realtors thinks this could be the crest of the big housing boom, though we've heard that before.
Also today, a bearish call on tech from Merrill Lynch analyst Richard Bernstein. He said the tech sector is completely devoid of value, burning cash instead of returning it to shareholders, and it's experienced terrific deflation. He prefers energy and industrials.
Meanwhile, data from Thomson Financial shows executives cashing out of the markets rally and barely buying company stock. Thomson's sell-buy ratio is 35 to one. That means $35 of insider sales for each dollar of insider buying. Craig Columbus over at Thomson said there's only been 14 other examples of an insider sell-buy ratio worse than 20, which is where we are now; 10 of those times the S&P 500 was lower six months later. So this bears watching.
DOBBS: Bears watching. But looks like a 50-50 proposition as an indicator. Christine, thanks. Christine Romans.
Finally tonight, we've heard from medical experts for years that drinking wine can be good for our health. But now a new study shows that red wine can actually help us live longer. Jan Hopkins reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: To life.
JAN HOPKINS, CNN FINANCIAL NEWS CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): This group is celebrating a birthday, but they could be toasting a new scientific discovery. Red wine contains a chemical that could be a fountain of youth.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is my 70th birthday.
J. HOPKINS (on camera): And you have...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I feel wonderful. Oh, yes. I do attribute it to that. Absolutely. The wine is -- white wine is good, too, but red wine is the best for your heart, for your health.
J. HOPKINS (voice-over): A new study published in "Nature" magazine mentions an enzyme in red wine that could extend life.
ROBERT ZIPKIN, PRESIDENT, BIOMIL RESEARCH LABORATORIES: This is the breakthrough, really, that a small molecule, a drug-like substance, can affect lifespan of various organisms.
J. HOPKINS: It's just one more piece of evidence that should increase sales of red wine.
BART HOPKINS, 6T WINES & SPIRITS: It seems like there's a new study coming out every couple of weeks and they're all very positive. But yes, it does have positive ramifications. We see people coming in, they're more interested in the health benefits of wine.
J. HOPKINS: Restaurants are already seeing increased interest in red wine. It goes with the Atkins diet.
RON DIDNER, GEN. MANAGER, CAFE DES ARTISTES: There has definitely been a distinctive push to the red meat or the main protein with fat, less starch, and as well as a red wine also to help induce, I guess, digestion.
J. HOPKINS: But the benefits of drinking red wine may also be because of a more relaxed lifestyle.
CHRIS CHIAPPARELLI, BEVERAGE DIRECTOR, CAFE DES ARTISTES: If you drink red wine, enjoy your meal, you'll be more healthy.
J. HOPKINS: At a leisurely lunch in New York's romantic Cafe des Artistes, customers were quick to credit red wine with turning back the clock.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We're from New Orleans, and wine is a part of every meal, and I attribute my advanced age without any sickness to drinking wine every day.
J. HOPKINS (on camera): The new studies showing increased health benefits for drinking red wine bring new meaning to the phrase "salut."
Jan Hopkins, CNN, New York.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: Salut, and elegantly done, Jan.
That's our show tonight. Thanks for being with us. For all of us here, good night from New York. "LIVE FROM THE HEADLINES" with Anderson Cooper coming up next.
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