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Lou Dobbs Tonight
Court Blocks Do-Not-Call List; Arnold Schwarzenegger Debates Tonight; Some Calling For Secretary Rumsfeld's Resignation
Aired September 24, 2003 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR: Fifty million Americans frustrated with a court decision today blocking the national do-not-call list. Congressman Billy Tauzin will tell us what Congress does next.
"Exporting America": A visa program helps hundreds of thousands of foreigners take jobs from Americans. In tonight's "Face-Off": Should these visas be abolished?
Rumsfeld's rule: Tough questions on Capitol Hill today. The former ambassador to Iraq, Joe Wilson, is our guest. He's calling for Rumsfeld's resignation.
And the Pentagon investigates charges of treason among troops working with terrorist suspects in Guantanamo Bay. Jamie McIntyre reports.
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT for Wednesday, September 24. Here now, Lou Dobbs.
DOBBS: Good evening.
The national do-not-call list that was to go into effect one week from today blocked by a federal judge. Judge Lee West frustrated the wishes of 50 million Americans, saying the Federal Trade Commission lacked the authority to create such a registry. The's decision is a clear victory for telemarketers, who said the registry was a violation of their right to call. Lawmakers on Capitol Hill are promising to fix the problem once and for all.
Lisa Sylvester reports tonight from Washington.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LISA SYLVESTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It's the one call you're not waiting for, a call from a telemarketer; 50 million people signed up with the Federal Trade Commission to put their names on a do-not-call list. But one week before the list was to be activated, a district judge in Oklahoma ruled the FTC does not have the authority and finds the do-not-call provision to be invalid.
CHRIS MURRAY, CONSUMERS UNION: They were expecting, on October 1, to sort of have the sanctity of their dinner table restored. I think that their expectations are not going to be met. And that's really unfortunate.
SYLVESTER: According to the district court, Congress gave the authority for a national registry to another agency, the Federal Communications Commission, which, in 1992, opted not to create a list. This is a major victory for telemarketing groups, who also argue the registry violates First Amendment rights.
BOB WIENTZEN, DIRECT MARKETING ASSOCIATION: We really don't think that the federal government should act here on behalf of consumers. We think that the marketplace should respond to the desires of consumers.
SYLVESTER: The Federal Trade Commission released a statement promising to seek every recourse to give American consumers a choice to stop unwanted telemarketing calls.
And Congress, fearing a public backlash, says it can pass a bill almost immediately that explicitly gives the Federal Trade Commission the property authority. If there's one things lawmakers from both sides of the aisle can agree on, it's that people want a little peace and quiet.
REP. JOHN DINGELL (D), MICHIGAN: The American people do not want these miserable calls. They regard them as a particular annoyance when they're eating dinner. And, as I've observed earlier, they're as popular as a skunk at a church picnic.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SYLVESTER: The Federal Trade Commission announced a few minutes ago that it is asking for a stay of the judge's ruling to keep the do- not-call list alive while the government appeals the case. But the names and phone numbers of the people who signed up for the registry are already in the hands of the companies. What happens now, what the companies will do with that information, is in the hands of the courts -- Lou.
DOBBS: Talk about the law of unintended consequences.
Thank you very much, Lisa -- Lisa Sylvester reporting from Washington.
And coming up tonight, Peter Viles reports on just how easy it is for direct marketers and corporate America to find out all about your private life. And later in the show, we'll be joined by Congressman Billy Tauzin, chairman of the House Energy and Commerce Committee. He'll tell us what the next steps are for Congress.
CNN legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin is with me now.
And, Jeffrey, first of all, good to have you here.
This decision comes out of a federal court in Oklahoma. Why?
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, it was filed there, and I don't think that was any coincidence. A lot of telemarketers are based in Oklahoma.
And I think one interpretation of this ruling, perhaps unduly cynical, is that this was kind of a home job, that that's why they went to court there and they got the result they wanted.
DOBBS: Because of economic interests of direct marketers in Oklahoma?
TOOBIN: Exactly.
DOBBS: And this ruling, that the FTC lacks the appropriate authority and that it is properly the domain of the FCC, what's your judgment on that?
TOOBIN: Bizarre, stunning. I think it's going to be overturned, not only because I think it's wrong about that specific piece of legislation. After the do-not-call list was announced by the FTC, Congress specifically appropriated money so that they could put the do-not-call list into effect. So I don't see how you get from that that Congress somehow was being thwarted here. Congress is leading the cheers for this legislation.
DOBBS: And, as I said, we'll be talking later with Congressman Tauzin, who will have a lot to say about this legislation.
In terms of the courts, how soon for this appeal to be heard to move through the system?
TOOBIN: Well, I think a stay is very likely, either from the judge who issued it or from the court of appeals that supervises Oklahoma. Given the fact that the list was supposed to go into effect in October, I think you're going to see some very fast litigation here. And I've been wrong before, but I think this is very likely to be overturned.
DOBBS: The do-not-call list was supposed to be effective one week from tonight. What is the odd...
TOOBIN: Well, the current status is, it is not going into effect. So some judge has to step in and say, go ahead on October 1. But status quo is, it's not going into effect. But I do think there will be at least one more court to review this by October 1, so the story isn't over.
DOBBS: Two broader issues. One is the telemarketers' right to call and the other is for the person sitting at home, as Congressman Dingell so eloquently put it, not to receive one of these miserable calls. Which is the prevailing right?
TOOBIN: Well, one of the things the judge said was, the telemarketers had a First Amendment right, that this was a freedom of speech issue.
But what the FTC said, this isn't a freedom of speech issue. It's the same kind of law that says you can't use a bullhorn in a residential neighborhood in the middle of the night. Congress can always restrict the time, the place, the manner of speech. That's what this is.
DOBBS: Jeffrey Toobin, thank you very much. Tonight, the Pentagon is trying to find out more about possible espionage and treason at the military prison for terrorist suspects in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. Officials today said investigators are watching two other members of the armed forces after the arrest of a senior airman and an Islamic chaplain in the Army.
Senior Pentagon correspondent Jamie McIntyre has the story -- Jamie.
JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN MILITARY AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Well, Lou, these cases are raising a lot of questions, chief among them: How could a lowly translator at the Camp Delta, the prison catch for Taliban and al Qaeda suspects, get access to classified computer systems in order to steal some of the most sensitive and secret data about the detainees there?
Here's what New York Congressman (sic) Charles Schumer said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. CHARLES SCHUMER (D), NEW YORK: It is absolutely outrageous that Yee and al-Halabi were able to repeatedly flout security controls, bringing computers with modems and e-mails from prisoners to and from the base. What the heck is going on here? This is the Pentagon, not the INS.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MCINTYRE: Senator Schumer just one of those outraged in Congress.
The charge sheet for Senior Airman Ahmad al-Halabi lists dozens of security breaches, everything from downloading classified information directly to his personal laptop computer, to gathering over 180 electronic versions of handwritten notes from prisoners, and also even things as mundane as delivering unauthorized food, in one case, baklava pastries. The Pentagon says it is going to take a hard look at its procedures.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEN. RICHARD MYERS, JOINT CHIEFS CHAIRMAN: Any time you have allegations like this, you always look at your procedures and your process. And that would be natural and normal. So we'll do that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MCINTYRE: Now, the Pentagon insists, it was already looking at how Muslim chaplains are certified, even before the arrests of Captain James Yee, the Muslim chaplain who is also suspected, but not charged with spying. The Pentagon is also going to look at the outside religious organizations that certify the chaplains as well.
And we talked today to Ahmad al-Halabi's lawyer, the airman's lawyer, the young translator. He insists his client is not guilty. He says -- quote -- he told CNN, "He's not a terrorist and not a spy." He also said that he has full access to his client, but that the client has not been able to talk to his father, because he's prohibited in speaking in Arabic, which is the only language his father understands -- Lou.
DOBBS: Jamie, this has to be an immensely sensitive issue for the military. But the allegation is, as Senator Schumer said, the organizations that were providing bona fides for chaplains, how wide is this investigation? How far-reaching is it? What will the Pentagon say about that right now?
MCINTYRE: All they're saying right now is that they have those procedures under review and they're taking a look at the organizations that provide, as you said, the bona fides for chaplains to see if there's a problem there.
But beyond issuing that statement, they're not saying how far the investigation is going.
DOBBS: Thank you very much, Jamie -- Jamie McIntyre, our senior Pentagon correspondent.
President Bush today met with German Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder to put their disagreements over the war against Saddam Hussein behind them. It was the first significant meeting between the two leaders in more than a year. Afterward, President Bush said the differences between the two countries are ended, that he and Schroeder will now work together.
On Capitol Hill today, a number of senators had tough questions on Iraq for Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld. Rumsfeld said the White House request for $87 billion is affordable.
Congressional correspondent Jonathan Karl with the story -- Jonathan.
JONATHAN KARL, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Lou, the administration was out in full force on Capitol Hill today.
In addition to Don Rumsfeld, you also had Paul Bremer before two separate committees up here and also Vice President Cheney in closed- door meetings with Republicans. It was Secretary Rumsfeld, though, that was hit hardest up here before the Senate Appropriations Committee, facing angry Democrats, who questioned whether or not the administration really has a plan for Iraq.
One of the top Democrats, the top Democrat on the committee, suggesting the administration has misled the American people and the Congress about the reasons for war and did not have a mandate for this $87 billion the president now says he needs.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. ROBERT BYRD (D), WEST VIRGINIA: The American people never been told that we're going into that country to build a new nation, to build a new government, to democratize the country and to democratize the Middle East. (CROSSTALK)
BYRD: The American people haven't been told that. They were told we are going in there because of weapons of mass destruction.
DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: The American people were told by the president of the United States at the U.N. and here in the United States the reasons for going in.
Once having gone in, the last thing we need to do is to turn that country over to another dictator like Saddam Hussein. The least we can do is...
BYRD: Nobody's suggesting that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KARL: Republicans, by and large, stood by the president, stood by Don Rumsfeld, although some of them questioned the $20 billion for reconstruction in Iraq and whether or not that shouldn't be a loan to Iraq that would be repaid with future oil revenues.
Now, Rumsfeld and others for the administration have publicly said that that's a bad idea, because Iraq is too much in debt. Vice President Cheney offered a different reason in that closed-door meeting with Republicans. He said that requiring Iraq to repay with its oil revenues would fuel the perception that the war was fought so the U.S. could get ahold of Iraq oil money. He said that would be a bad idea, that this money should be a grant, not expected to be paid back, that the oil revenues should stay in Iraq -- Lou.
DOBBS: Jonathan, thank you very much -- Jonathan Karl from Capitol Hill.
Coming up: do-not-call blocked. The congressman Billy Tauzin, the chairman of the Energy and Commerce Committee, says that decision will not stand, if he has anything to do about it. He joins us.
And then: The candidates in the California recall race, they're preparing to take the stage for the first major debate. Kelly Wallace reports from Sacramento.
And foreign workers imported to the United States taking American jobs. Kitty Pilgrim reports. And we'll have two leading experts to "Face-Off" on a controversial government program.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Coming up: calling for Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld's resignation. Former Ambassador to Iraq Joe Wilson says Secretary Rumsfeld has failed the president, that it's time for him to go. Ambassador Wilson joins us.
Please stay with us. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Tonight, Republican Arnold Schwarzenegger will take part in his first and his only televised debate with his rivals in the California recall election. The other candidates have strongly criticized him for refusing to participate in any other debates. Tonight's debate is being held in Sacramento, California.
Kelly Wallace has the story -- Kelly.
KELLY WALLACE, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Lou, the political observers we have been talking to say they believe the stakes are very high for all the major candidates, but that the pressure is likely to be greatest on Arnold Schwarzenegger.
As you pointed out, it is the first and only debate the political newcomer has agreed to do. Going into this debate, the Schwarzenegger strategy appears to be downplaying expectations. One aide put it this way, saying the debate is important, but that the public also recognizes this is the candidate's first time in such a forum.
However, even with that said, Schwarzenegger's performance could have dramatic implications for his campaign, because his poll numbers have not gone up significantly over recent weeks. Now, the pressure is also on some of the other major candidates in this race, including GOP candidate state Senator Tom McClintock, because some Republicans have been pressing McClintock to get out of the race to avoid splitting the Republican vote.
But a winning performance by McClintock or a major mistake by Schwarzenegger could change some Republican minds. Finally, for the Democratic candidate on the replacement part of the ballot, Lieutenant Governor Cruz Bustamante, many analysts believe his major challenge right now is to do some damage control. His unfavorability ratings have gone up dramatically due to a controversy over him receiving some donations from Native American tribes -- Lou.
DOBBS: Kelly Wallace, reporting from Sacramento, thank you.
CNN will have live coverage of the recall debate tonight. It begins at 9:00 p.m. Eastern, 6:00 p.m. Pacific.
Turning to national politics, a retired four-star general shocked an audience in California when he said he would not be voting for General Wesley Clark in the upcoming presidential election. According to reports, General Hugh Shelton, a former chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, told an audience that integrity and character issues were the reason for General Clark's early departure from his post as NATO commander.
Coming up next: calls for Secretary Rumsfeld to resign. Ambassador Joe Wilson is among those leading the charge. He joins us.
And then: What makes the do-not-call list necessary? Why your personal information is often public knowledge. Peter Viles will report. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: The former Ambassador to Iraq Joe Wilson today called for Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld to resign. Ambassador Wilson offered scathing criticism of Secretary Rumsfeld's decision in the war against Saddam Hussein.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RUMSFELD: Is $87 billion a great deal of money? The answer is yes. Can our country afford it? The answer is also yes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: Ambassador Joe Wilson joins us now from Washington, D.C.
Ambassador, good to have you here.
Why are you calling for the secretary's resignation?
JOSEPH WILSON, FORMER U.S. DEPUTY AMBASSADOR TO IRAQ: Well, good evening, Lou.
Actually, what I've done is, I have associated myself with a campaign to urge Congress to hold the administration to account for its policy in Iraq and to basically insist that, before Congress votes to release $87 billion for the reconstruction effort, that they get from the administration two things: one, the resignation of the administration team that's been responsible for this fiasco, including and first of all Secretary Rumsfeld.
And then the second request or demand is that the president -- that the Congress exact from the president a commitment to turn the authority for the reconstruction effort over to the United Nations as soon as possible.
DOBBS: Joe, the idea of turning over the $87 billion, if that is indeed what Congress does ultimately approve, to the United Nations? Really? You really believe the United Nations can do a better job of administering $87 billion?
WILSON: It's not a question of turning over the expenditure of it. It's a question of real internationalizing the process, so that you actually get the Iraqis to begin to believe that this is not an American occupation, but is in fact a global effort to assist them in their time of need, and after 30 years of Saddam Hussein and the Baath Party, followed by this war and followed by what they perceive to be an American occupation.
DOBBS: Let's assume that President Bush listens to former Ambassador Joe Wilson and decides that, by God, Donald Rumsfeld is gone, asks for his resignation, and he departs. Who would you have take over as secretary of defense? WILSON: Well, first of all, Lou, I would expect that the president is not going to listen to me. But he may well listen to Congress. And it is something that we're asking Congress to do, to hold the administration to account.
There are any number of solid officers within the Republican Party who could stand up and take that job. In actual fact, this team headed by the Defense Department that brought us the ideological underpinning for the war, the prosecution of the war, and now the reconstruction has failed in three fundamental respects.
They have failed the troops. We now have 130,000 troops out there in harm's way. The secretary's insistence on having a fast and light force is in violation of everything we learned when we did Bosnia. And I was part of a team that did the IFOR deployment.
DOBBS: Right.
WILSON: If you want to reduce American casualties, you go in and you occupy the space with heavy troops.
Secondly, I think that they have failed the president. They have provided him with consistently bad advice, underestimating what the response was going to be within Iraq. And, third, I think they have failed the country.
DOBBS: Let me ask you this, because you do have experience, intimate knowledge of the country, its people. The suggestion that the $20 billion for reconstruction, the discussion was going into the war that reconstruction would be paid for by oil revenues from Iraq.
Now the suggestion from the administration, that that would be unseemly and the sensibilities of Iraqis and others might be offended because it would look like this was about oil if we asked them to repay. What is your judgment?
WILSON: Well, more than that, Lou. Just a couple of months ago, Andrew Natsios, the aid director, told Ted Koppel that $1.7 billion was all we were going to spend on reconstruction. Now we've got an $87 billion bill that we're looking at.
So the question becomes, what do they tell each audience? Are they telling each audience what they think they need to tell to get away with what they need to get? And that's why it's really important, I think, this time around that Congress take its responsibility seriously and demand that the administration, that it come clean on what it requires and what sort of a situation we find ourselves in.
DOBBS: Ambassador, let me reassert the question, then, seeking accountability. I asked, do you think that would be offensive to Iraqi sensibilities? Would it in some way underline the idea that this conflict was about oil, should we ask the Iraqis to repay that $20 billion?
WILSON: Well, I believe, Lou, that the Iraqis, who are fierce nationalists and fiercely proud, would want to be responsible for the payment of their own bills.
So, in answer to your specific question, I don't believe that it is unseemly to ask people to pay their own bills. Now, there may be other things that we need to do. Now, remember, Jerry Bremer testified yesterday that, as the occupying power, we have also assumed $200 billion of Iraqi debt.
DOBBS: As always, Ambassador Joe Wilson, we thank you for being with us. Appreciate it.
WILSON: It's good to be with you, Lou.
DOBBS: That brings us to the subject of tonight's poll. The question: Do you think Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld should resign, yes or no? Cast your vote at CNN.com/Lou. We'll have the results later in the show.
Tonight's quote comes from the top U.S. civilian administrator in Iraq -- and we quote -- "Most Iraqis welcomed us as liberators. And we glowed with pleasure at that welcome. But now the reality of foreign troops on the streets is starting to chafe. Some Iraqis are starting to see us more as occupiers than liberators" -- that from ambassador Paul Bremer.
Central Command today said another soldier has been killed in Iraq, the soldier a member of the 101st Airborne Division. He died after an accidental shooting near Mosul; 305 American service men and women have been killed in Iraq since the beginning of the war, 191 killed in action, 114 killed in accidents; 1,630 troops have been wounded or injured, all but 320 of them in combat.
A top general today said thousands more National Guard and Reserve troops could be mobilized for service in Iraq. General Peter Pace, who is vice chairman of Joint Chiefs, said extra troops will be needed if other countries don't provide another multinational division. About 20,000 National Guard and Reserve troops are currently serving in Iraq and Kuwait.
And, in Iraq today, a terrorist bomb exploded near two commuter buses in Baghdad, killing a 17-year-old passenger. At least 12 other people were wounded, five of them seriously. Officials say terrorists intended to attack a nearby U.S. military vehicle.
Five months after the U.S. invasion of Iraq, many Iraqis say the removal of Saddam Hussein is worth any personal hardships they have had to endure, that according to what Gallup calls the first scientific poll conducted in every part of the city of Baghdad. Nearly two-thirds of the citizens of Baghdad say ousting Saddam is worth any personal hardship they've had to put up with.
And in a seemingly even more optimistic note, more than two- thirds of those polled say Iraq will be in better condition five years from now than before the war began.
Coming up here: a U.S. government policy that paves the way for foreign workers to take American jobs. Kitty Pilgrim reports. We'll have two leading experts face off on the controversial H1-B and L-1 visa programs.
And telemarketers are given free rein to call your home. But how do they find out your personal information to begin with? Peter Viles reports.
And Congressman Billy Tauzin, the chairman of the Energy and Commerce Committee, joins us. He says today's ruling will not stand. He joins us next.
Please stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ANNOUNCER: LOU DOBBS TONIGHT continues. Now, "Exporting America."
DOBBS: We've been reporting for weeks on this show about the massive loss of American jobs to foreign countries in our series of special reports, "Exporting America." What is less well known is how tens of thousands of foreigners take jobs in this country every year, under special visa programs. Incredibly, some American workers are training those foreigners to take their own jobs.
Kitty Pilgrim reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KITTY PILGRIM, CNNfn CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Mike Emmons was living a comfortable life in a suburb of Orlando until the company where he worked decided to bring in overseas workers on special visas to replace some of their workers. The worst part, -- the Americans were asked to train replacements before they were let go.
MIKE EMMONS: They held out a carrot for the Americans, a severance. Stay on and train your replacement workers, then you'll get this severance when you leave. I stayed on until November until I landed another job. But what I learned about these H1-B and L-1 visas is very discouraging for American workers.
PILGRIM: Mike's wife went to work. One of their big concerns -- uninterrupted health care coverage for their daughter, born with spinal bifida (sic). Mike found another job at considerably less pay. Lisa says it changed their outlook and their lifestyle.
LISA EMMONS: It's changed my views completely. Everything is different now than it used to be. We didn't have a financial worry really, ever. I can drive through my neighborhood today and there are more "for sale" signs than I have ever seen right now.
PILGRIM: After lobbying by the high-tech industry, Congress expanded the H1-B visa program to bring overseas skilled workers into the country. Workers are supposed to be paid at the same rate as Americans and the company must say that no American was available for the job, conditions experts say are not consistently enforced.
The quota of visas, normally set at 65,000, a year was raised by Congress during the high-tech boom to 115,000 in 1998, then 195,000 in 2000. Because of the high-tech bust, the numbers of visa applications have been dropping, and the quota is expected to drop back to 65,000 this year. But experts say, in this economy that is still too high.
PROF. NORM MATLOFF, UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA - DAVIS: We've got hundreds of thousands of people in this field, American workers are out of work. We have no business allowing 65,000 people to come in from abroad and take their place.
PILGRIM: Another visa, the L-1, used within a company to transfer overseas managers to this country for temporary assignment, has also generated an influx of workers. Those who studied the issue carefully, like Michael Teitelbaum, say although visas have legitimate uses, loopholes are widely exploited.
MICHAEL TEITELBAUM, SLOAN FOUNDATION: There are some employers who use them responsibly and very parsimoniously and make a serious effort to hire domestic workers before they go abroad to hire. But those employers do not account for a very large fraction of 195,000 visas per year.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: Now the first solution is to enforce the rules of equal pay. And the second, and Congress is in the process of doing this, is to decide just how many so-called specialists are required from overseas. Perhaps it's not as many as the companies say they need -- Lou.
DOBBS: Kitty, thank you very much. Kitty Pilgrim.
In tonight's "Face Off": "Should foreign workers be allow allowed into the United States on those special visas?"
Republican Congressman Tom Tancredo of Colorado says the visas destroy American jobs, and should be abolished.
Harris Miller is the President of the Information Technology Association of America and says U.S. companies need those foreign workers to remain competitive.
To you both, welcome. We appreciate you being here.
TOM TANCREDO (R), COLORADO: Thanks, Lou.
DOBBS: Congressman, if I may begin with you.
TANCREDO: Sure.
DOBBS: These visas, apparently, for years, were not given much notice. Congress approved the approach. How -- what are we -- what we to do here?
TANCREDO: Well, what happened -- you're absolutely right. We have had the H1-B visa program for many years. It just wasn't really used very much until -- until a couple of things happened. Of course, there was a high-tech boom, and at that time, employers started to figure out that they could actually displace American workers, higher-paid workers, by bringing cheaper labor into this country. And they saw a way to do it. It was called the H1-B visa. Someone on your program a minute ago, one of the experts, said that not all companies do it. That is true. Some are very judicious about it. But many, many -- in fact, I would say the majority abuse this dramatically and have actually brought in now about 800,000 people right here, right now, on H1-B visas.
DOBBS: And another 400,000 on the L-1 visa for...
TANCREDO: Which is growing dramatically.
DOBBS: And let me turn to you, Harris.
Can this really be allowed to stand when we're sitting here with 6 percent unemployment; we have technology workers without jobs and we're importing people to take their jobs?
HARRIS MILLER, PRES., INFORMATION TECHNOLOGY ASSOCIATION OF AMERICA: Well, let me try to introduce some facts into discussion. It might be more useful for viewers. Number one, the number of...
DOBBS: Whoa! Whoa! Whoa! Harris...
MILLER: Unfortunately, Kitty's report didn't report -- conclude the fact. The number of H1-B visas users that came into the country in computer in 2002, according to the Department of Homeland Security, dropped 25,000, the lowest number in seven years.
So the program is working as intended. Where there is a shortage of I.T. workers, the numbers go up. When there's not a shortage, the numbers go down. The cap that Congress imposed said that's the maximum number. That's not the actual number. And if Congressman Tancredo was correct, and the program were being used to bring in cheap labor, then why wouldn't the employers bring in every single one of the 195,000?
DOBBS: Well, Harris, I'm sorry to get involved, but Harris has been a little direct.
One, Miss Pilgrim did not report that those were I.T. workers but total visas extend.
MILLER: But the total number of visas was also down, Lou, with all due respect.
DOBBS: She reported they were down to 65,000
MILLER: No, that isn't what she reported. She reported the numbers inaccurately.
DOBBS: OK. Congressman, you have a run.
TANCREDO: OK. Somebody is certainly inaccurate about the numbers. One I'm looking at right here, the most recent numbers, given to me show the visas issued in 2002, 79,100, 2002. Now they are down this year to about -- well, there's 59,000 have been issued so far this year, another 15,000 in the pipeline. That's so far this year.
Now -- but the point is this, Lou. Yes, the visas numbers are down, and here's why. It's not because all of these corporations are doing it just by the book. It's because there are fewer jobs, number one. And number two, because they found another loophole, another visa category that they are using and the numbers are rising in. It's called L-1, where they can, by intracompany transfers, bring in the same people and oust American workers. That's what's happening. That's why the numbers in H1-B are going down.
MILLER: Again, with all due respect, Congressman, I think the numbers from the Department of Homeland Security show the L-1 visas dropped again from 2001, to 2002 projected to drop again in 2003. The other thing...-
(CROSSTALK)
MILLER: So the program is working as intended. When unemployment is going up, the number of visas is going down. If the congressman's objection were correct, that this is a cheap labor program, then again I ask why wouldn't employers use the maximum number the law allows? They would use all 195,000. The 79,000 the congressman referred to -- again, those include health care workers, those include fashion models, those include short order chefs. Of those 79,000, 25,000, according to the Department of Homeland Security are in I.T., which is down dramatically. It's the lowest number since the mid 90s.
TANCREDO: And what is happened to the L-1 category? It is up dramatically. The highest numbers that we have ever had. Why? Because they are -- that's the alternative loophole.
You're right. Congress has put pressure on them. It's absolutely true. There's a lot of heat that's been -- that's been applied here and so companies are saying, you know what? We better look at this a little more carefully, figure out a different way to do it. They have done that. It's called L-1s.
And, of course, it's also true that there are have fewer jobs available. That's actually another reason why it's going down. But that isn't because everybody in the corporate -- everyone in corporate America is just saying, let's live by and play by the rules. That's simply not the case.
DOBBS: Let me ask you this, Harris, following up on the congressman's point. How many people are in the United States on L-1 and H1-B visas right now?
MILLER: The best we can determine, about 200,000 on H1. It's hard to tell because, unfortunately, the immigration department doesn't do a very good job of tracking people (UNINTELLIGIBLE). But about 200,000 on H-1s. L-1s, it looks like it's about 100,000 to 125,000, the best we can tell.
TANCREDO: There have been over 800,000 H1-B visas, and reapplications. We have no idea -- are you telling me you believe that 600,000 have gone home over the course of the last six or eight years? I mean, that's simply impossible. You know as well as I do, that the numbers are much closer to 800,000 here than 200,000.
MILLER: Congressman, the numbers are impossible. The maximum number that came in in any one year under the H1-Bs, as you said yourself, was a little over 150,000. According to the Department of Homeland Security, over half the H1-Bs stay here less than three years.
TANCREDO: No, they don't. They stay here longer than three years. They just keep applying or some of them, of course, don't go home at all. And there's absolutely not one single thing that we have ever done to try to enforce the law. That's another problem.
Not one person who has been -- has been, to my knowledge, not one single person has been expelled from this country because they overstayed their H1-B visa.
DOBBS: Has anyone been expelled, Harris, in your knowledge?
MILLER: As far as I know, yes, according to the Department of Homeland Security.
(CROSSTALK)
TANCREDO: How many? How many?
MILLER: Congressman has the power...
(CROSSSTALK)
MILLER: I can't yell against the congressman.
TANCREDO: You're absolutely wrong on that and you know it. No one has been deported because they've extended their H1-B visas.
MILLER: The other thing that's important to realize, Lou, the H1-B Visa program is an interesting program. What Congressman Tancredo Callings crafted the program, then made it a program in a fish bowl. This is a program everybody, you, the Congressman, workers on the street, can find out exactly what H1-B workers are being paid. If somebody doesn't like that, they can file a complaint with the Department of Labor, which is required to enforce the law and take action against the employer community.
DOBBS: I have to share with you the e-mails we receive from our viewers laying out H1-B programs the stories that we have received from people and I mean lots of them. Talk about training people for jobs that they're supposedly bringing in because the skills weren't available to be replaced.
By the way, the numbers that we have, just to put it forward, let me give the source, University of California Davis. The estimated holders of H1-B Visa in this country right now is 856,000, L-1 Visa holders, 325,000.
MILLER: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) that's Norman Mattloff (ph) who has had a personal problem with immigration for a long time. I subjects that congressman believes those numbers.
(CROSSTALK)
TANCREDO: There's -- how many report dozen you want?
MILLER: He has the authority to ask the General Accounting Office as a member of Congress. I'd be glad to work with him.
DOBBS: If I man say something Congressmen, as we wrap up, one of the things that is maddeningly frustrating to us, in the special series in "Exporting America," is the federal government, the Commerce Department, the Labor Department, the Department of Homeland Security, none of them have figures that tell us who is crossing our borders, under what circumstances, who remains, who goes, who's deported. It is a remarkable situation. Whether one is to look at it from the issue of employment security, economic security, or national security itself. It is a remarkable.
(CROSSTALK)
TANCREDO: That is certainly true, Lou. If I went tomorrow to either the president of the United States, I'm afraid, or the leadership in the Congress, with the full proof plan to actually control our own borders and stop all illegal immigration into this country and significantly even reduce legal immigration so we can begin to get a handle on this problem that you've described, I'd be thrown out by the ear.
The reason, Lou, is because we have a cheap labor policy. We do not want to reduce it. We do not want to stop either illegal immigration or reduce even the legal ways in which people come in here and actually throw American workers out of work because it's less expensive to do so. It's a horrible thing to say. I wish I didn't have to, but it's the way it is.
DOBBS: I ask here on our own network if we had H1-B Visa holders and the answer is, yes. It's a remarkable situation in every respect.
Harris, you get the final word.
MILLER: One point, I hope your series would raise the United States runs a trade surplus with the rest of the world in two areas, airplane manufacturing, that's because we got only one of two companies in the world that makes them and I.T. We run $7.9 billion surplus with the rest of the world.
As you know, as you report every night, we run a trade deficit in everything else you can think of, automobiles, textiles, oil, et cetera. The reason we want to surplus the rest of the world is we have the best I.T. industry in the world and it's important that your viewers understand that.
DOBBS: I don't think anyone here -- any of our viewers of this broadcast will be surprised that this country is preeminent in technology. I think it's one of the reasons they're stunned to find we don't have the adequate skills and opinions of some corporations to put Americans into jobs rather than H1-B and L-1 Visa holders.
Harris, thank you much. Congressman we thank you very much for being with us.
Tomorrow here in "Exporting America," we will find out why thousands of jobs and new semiconductor plants were shipped overseas and what it will take to bring those jobs back to the United States.
"Tonight's Thought" is on unemployment.
"A man willing to work and unable to find work is perhaps the saddest sight that fortune's inequality exhibits under this sun."
That from author Thomas Carlyle.
Coming up next, Congressman Billy Tauzin on today's "Do Not Call" decision and what Congress plans to do about it. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Today's ruling by a federal judge blocking the national "Do Not Call" registry calls attention to an issue that Corporate America and telemarketers would rather not publicize -- you're privacy, or your rather lack thereof. Most major banks share or even sell personal information about clients and that is with other companies.
Peter Viles, reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
PETER VILES, CNNFn CORRESPONDENT: This ad for Pacific Life makes a simple promise, we don't sell information about our clients to anyone, period. You'd think big financial companies would be able to take that pledge and you would be dead wrong. They share your information in a big way.
TRAVIS PLUNKETT, CONSUMER FEDERATION OF AMERICA: In shorthand we call it your financial DNA. This is what you spend your money on, what your credit card is used for, how much you spend, when, everything. It provides an astonishing amount of information that can be easily misused if someone chooses to do so.
VILES: Check out your bank's privacy policy. Chase, quote, "we share information about you with other companies." Bank One, quote, "we may share any of the personal information that we collect about you with companies or other organizations outside of the Bank One family." Wells Fargo, "we share information with nonaffiliated third parties." Citigroup, quote, "we may facilitate relevant offers from reputable companies." There is so much information being shared, if you're smart enough, you can go out and buy some of it yourself.
JAMIE COURT, FOUNDATION FOR TAXPAYER & CONSUMER RIGHTS: I was able to go on the Internet and buy for $26 the social security numbers of John Ashcroft, CIA Director George Tenet and just about every other cabinet member, that's how available the information is. The home address, social security number available for $26 because the banks and insurers trade this information very freely.
VILES: One exception to the rule, Bank of America, which quote, "does not sell or share any customer information with marketers outside Bank of America."
(END VIDEOTAPE)
VILES: What has Congress done to protect your financial privacy? Not all that much. You can tell your bank not to share information with third parties but under federal law you can't prevent your bank from giving your profile to its affiliates and banks have literally hundreds of business affiliates and share your information with them -- Lou.
DOBBS: Pete, thank you very much. Peter Viles.
I'm joined now by Congressman Billy Tauzin, he is the chairman of the House Energy and Commerce Committee. His committee passed the legislation allowing regulators to create the "Do Not Call" registry and he says he's confident this ruling won't stand. He joins us from Washington.
Congressman, good to have you with us.
REP. BILLY TAUZIN (R), LOUISIANA: Good to be with you.
DOBBS: This is a remarkable decision. What are you going to do about it? If it comes to that?
TAUZIN: Look, see, I've just signed the bill. This is a two sentence bill. I've just signed it. We're going to file it as soon as I get off the show. Tomorrow it's up by the floor, (UNINTELLIGIBLE) third up after the continuing resolution is passed on to keep the government open in October. And the Senate is preparing a similar bill they are going file tomorrow under unanimous consent. I predict by tomorrow, we will put on the president's desk a bill for him to sign -- this bill, that will give the FCC clear authority regardless of what this judge thinks and we'll also put in place a "do not call" list October 1. This will get cured tomorrow.
DOBBS: Can you hear that sound, Congressman?
That's 50 million folks cheering right now.
TAUZIN: Not only that, but we're going to hang up on the telemarketers with 50 million people tomorrow. I'm one of the 50 million, by the way. And 50 million Americans can't be wrong, Lou. They want this, we want it, the president wants it. We're going to deliver it tomorrow. DOBBS: I think that a lot of viewers have to be stunned that the U.S. Congress is moving this quickly. I know that stunned or not, they're deeply appreciative. I know, as one of the 50 million, so am I. There's also the spam control legislation.
How far will you reach there?
TAUZIN: Well, we're not there yet. We're in the process of negotiating with the Democrats on an acceptable version of the spam legislation. We have agreed on a version with the Judiciary Committee. We're now negotiating with the Democrats on our committee to get a final version out. And it's just as important. You ought to be able to say no to people that call you when you don't want to be called in the evening with your family. You can today shut down unwanted mail at the post office by simply letting the Postal Service know you don't want that mail. You ought to do the same thing with the computer.
To those who say this is a free speech issue, the answer is that this is not about speech, this is about your right not to hear, not to listen. And if you don't want to listen -- husband's know this, Lou -- it's called selective hearing, remember?
DOBBS: I'm not going to join you there Congressman.
TAUZIN: If you don't want to listen, you ought to be able to say, don't call me, and get on this list. 50 million Americans have signed up for this. This court in Oklahoma's not going to stop it.
DOBBS: Congressman Billy Tauzin, our compliments. We wish you, I think the expression would be appropriate here, Godspeed with the legislation. We thank you for taking time to be with us.
TAUZIN: Just remember Lou, the congress is a slow beast. But when 50 million Americans say they want something done, we can be a speedy rabbit.
DOBBS: You got it. Thanks a lot. Congressman Billy Tauzin.
Still ahead here, we'll share some of your thoughts. And a triple digit loss for the Dow. Christine Romans will have the market for us. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Stocks tumbled today on Wall Street following a surprise decision by OPEC to cut worldwide oil production. The Dow Industrial is down more than 150 points, the Nasdaq off 58. The S&P 500, down nearly 20 points. Christine Romans here with the market -- Christine.
CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN FINANCIAL CORRESPONDENT: It was the worst day for the Dow, well, in about a week, but the biggest drop for the Dow in five months. On better than average volume, only two Dow stocks were higher, Proctor and Gamble and McDonald's. McDonald's higher because it's raising it's dividend. But the rest of this market, slammed. OPEC's cut launched crude more than a dollar higher to close above $28. After months of stronger economic data, higher oil prices were seen, by some, as a threat to the economic recovery.
Now a warning from Viacom also hurt, local advertising markets weaker there. The third quarter reporting season right around the corner. so A warning from a big company like Viacom got some people's attention.
A standout today though Lou,, Level 3 communications up 11 percent after the SEC filing showed that Warren Buffett owns almost 20 million shares. You know, Warren Buffett doesn't like to disclose what he has.
DOBBS We should cover that up. He doesn't like people to know that.
ROMANS: Yes, he says it makes the copy caters out there drive the stock price higher. That's exactly what happened today.
DOBBS: And the big pension funds down on Wall Street, talking to the New York Stock Exchange.
ROMANS: Absolutely, calling for reform, calling for a variety of things.
DOBBS: Real tough reform, go get them reform?
ROMANS: Well, they weren't calling for anyone's resignation, they're looking for the board to be smaller, with more investor representation later on. But, you know, there are some people -- critics screaming they'd like some of these board members gone. It looks as though the pension fund managers, they want to work with these guys to get some reform.
DOBBS: Sure. Do they want the security firms off the board?
ROMANS: Well, they're talking about that as well.
DOBBS: Do they want to get the New York Stock Exchange out of the self-regulation business?
ROMAN: They want to divide its regulatory business arms.
DOBBS: Okay. The beat goes on.
ROMANS: A lot of talking still. The SEC will have the ultimate word on this.
DOBBS: Absolutely. Thanks a lot, Christine Romans.
When we continue the results of tonight's poll. Also we'll have some of your thoughts on exporting America. including questions about this network's parent company and others. We'll share your thoughts next. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: The results of tonight's poll. Do you think Secretary Rumsfeld should resign? 88 percent of you voting yes, 12 percent no.
Taking a look at some your thoughts. Sheila Connely of Sarasota, Florida on exporting America, "I feel it is hypocritical that Mr. Dobbs points the shame on you finger at other companies while failing to disclose that Time Warner exports tons of jobs, such as AOL tech support to India." Sheila we couldn't agree with you more. Here are the numbers, and they're not pretty. AOL employs 1,800 workers in India, in addition to 1,000 workers at a customer service center in the Philippines. Earlier this year, America Online laid off 425 of its customer service people in this country.
Laurelei Craft of Park Rapids, Minnesota, "75 of the full-time jobs that went overseas this year were sent there by the Republican National Committee, who contracted with a firm in India to do its telemarketing fund-raising." Laurelei, you've been misinformed. So have a lot of other people who have written in on this subject for some time.
The Republican National Committee says the claim is without merit. In fact, it has demanded the Web site that wrongly accused them of fundraising in India to cease and desist. All vendors for the RNC are contractually obligated to have their phone calls to originate in the United States.
And in bipartisan fashion, the Democratic National Committee also confirmed to us that all of its employees are in this country.
We love hearing from you. Email us at loudobbs@cnn.com. That's our show for tonight. Thanks for being with us. For all of us here, good night from New York. "ANDERSON COOPER 360" is next.
END
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Debates Tonight; Some Calling For Secretary Rumsfeld's Resignation>
Aired September 24, 2003 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR: Fifty million Americans frustrated with a court decision today blocking the national do-not-call list. Congressman Billy Tauzin will tell us what Congress does next.
"Exporting America": A visa program helps hundreds of thousands of foreigners take jobs from Americans. In tonight's "Face-Off": Should these visas be abolished?
Rumsfeld's rule: Tough questions on Capitol Hill today. The former ambassador to Iraq, Joe Wilson, is our guest. He's calling for Rumsfeld's resignation.
And the Pentagon investigates charges of treason among troops working with terrorist suspects in Guantanamo Bay. Jamie McIntyre reports.
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT for Wednesday, September 24. Here now, Lou Dobbs.
DOBBS: Good evening.
The national do-not-call list that was to go into effect one week from today blocked by a federal judge. Judge Lee West frustrated the wishes of 50 million Americans, saying the Federal Trade Commission lacked the authority to create such a registry. The's decision is a clear victory for telemarketers, who said the registry was a violation of their right to call. Lawmakers on Capitol Hill are promising to fix the problem once and for all.
Lisa Sylvester reports tonight from Washington.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LISA SYLVESTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It's the one call you're not waiting for, a call from a telemarketer; 50 million people signed up with the Federal Trade Commission to put their names on a do-not-call list. But one week before the list was to be activated, a district judge in Oklahoma ruled the FTC does not have the authority and finds the do-not-call provision to be invalid.
CHRIS MURRAY, CONSUMERS UNION: They were expecting, on October 1, to sort of have the sanctity of their dinner table restored. I think that their expectations are not going to be met. And that's really unfortunate.
SYLVESTER: According to the district court, Congress gave the authority for a national registry to another agency, the Federal Communications Commission, which, in 1992, opted not to create a list. This is a major victory for telemarketing groups, who also argue the registry violates First Amendment rights.
BOB WIENTZEN, DIRECT MARKETING ASSOCIATION: We really don't think that the federal government should act here on behalf of consumers. We think that the marketplace should respond to the desires of consumers.
SYLVESTER: The Federal Trade Commission released a statement promising to seek every recourse to give American consumers a choice to stop unwanted telemarketing calls.
And Congress, fearing a public backlash, says it can pass a bill almost immediately that explicitly gives the Federal Trade Commission the property authority. If there's one things lawmakers from both sides of the aisle can agree on, it's that people want a little peace and quiet.
REP. JOHN DINGELL (D), MICHIGAN: The American people do not want these miserable calls. They regard them as a particular annoyance when they're eating dinner. And, as I've observed earlier, they're as popular as a skunk at a church picnic.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SYLVESTER: The Federal Trade Commission announced a few minutes ago that it is asking for a stay of the judge's ruling to keep the do- not-call list alive while the government appeals the case. But the names and phone numbers of the people who signed up for the registry are already in the hands of the companies. What happens now, what the companies will do with that information, is in the hands of the courts -- Lou.
DOBBS: Talk about the law of unintended consequences.
Thank you very much, Lisa -- Lisa Sylvester reporting from Washington.
And coming up tonight, Peter Viles reports on just how easy it is for direct marketers and corporate America to find out all about your private life. And later in the show, we'll be joined by Congressman Billy Tauzin, chairman of the House Energy and Commerce Committee. He'll tell us what the next steps are for Congress.
CNN legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin is with me now.
And, Jeffrey, first of all, good to have you here.
This decision comes out of a federal court in Oklahoma. Why?
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, it was filed there, and I don't think that was any coincidence. A lot of telemarketers are based in Oklahoma.
And I think one interpretation of this ruling, perhaps unduly cynical, is that this was kind of a home job, that that's why they went to court there and they got the result they wanted.
DOBBS: Because of economic interests of direct marketers in Oklahoma?
TOOBIN: Exactly.
DOBBS: And this ruling, that the FTC lacks the appropriate authority and that it is properly the domain of the FCC, what's your judgment on that?
TOOBIN: Bizarre, stunning. I think it's going to be overturned, not only because I think it's wrong about that specific piece of legislation. After the do-not-call list was announced by the FTC, Congress specifically appropriated money so that they could put the do-not-call list into effect. So I don't see how you get from that that Congress somehow was being thwarted here. Congress is leading the cheers for this legislation.
DOBBS: And, as I said, we'll be talking later with Congressman Tauzin, who will have a lot to say about this legislation.
In terms of the courts, how soon for this appeal to be heard to move through the system?
TOOBIN: Well, I think a stay is very likely, either from the judge who issued it or from the court of appeals that supervises Oklahoma. Given the fact that the list was supposed to go into effect in October, I think you're going to see some very fast litigation here. And I've been wrong before, but I think this is very likely to be overturned.
DOBBS: The do-not-call list was supposed to be effective one week from tonight. What is the odd...
TOOBIN: Well, the current status is, it is not going into effect. So some judge has to step in and say, go ahead on October 1. But status quo is, it's not going into effect. But I do think there will be at least one more court to review this by October 1, so the story isn't over.
DOBBS: Two broader issues. One is the telemarketers' right to call and the other is for the person sitting at home, as Congressman Dingell so eloquently put it, not to receive one of these miserable calls. Which is the prevailing right?
TOOBIN: Well, one of the things the judge said was, the telemarketers had a First Amendment right, that this was a freedom of speech issue.
But what the FTC said, this isn't a freedom of speech issue. It's the same kind of law that says you can't use a bullhorn in a residential neighborhood in the middle of the night. Congress can always restrict the time, the place, the manner of speech. That's what this is.
DOBBS: Jeffrey Toobin, thank you very much. Tonight, the Pentagon is trying to find out more about possible espionage and treason at the military prison for terrorist suspects in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. Officials today said investigators are watching two other members of the armed forces after the arrest of a senior airman and an Islamic chaplain in the Army.
Senior Pentagon correspondent Jamie McIntyre has the story -- Jamie.
JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN MILITARY AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Well, Lou, these cases are raising a lot of questions, chief among them: How could a lowly translator at the Camp Delta, the prison catch for Taliban and al Qaeda suspects, get access to classified computer systems in order to steal some of the most sensitive and secret data about the detainees there?
Here's what New York Congressman (sic) Charles Schumer said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. CHARLES SCHUMER (D), NEW YORK: It is absolutely outrageous that Yee and al-Halabi were able to repeatedly flout security controls, bringing computers with modems and e-mails from prisoners to and from the base. What the heck is going on here? This is the Pentagon, not the INS.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MCINTYRE: Senator Schumer just one of those outraged in Congress.
The charge sheet for Senior Airman Ahmad al-Halabi lists dozens of security breaches, everything from downloading classified information directly to his personal laptop computer, to gathering over 180 electronic versions of handwritten notes from prisoners, and also even things as mundane as delivering unauthorized food, in one case, baklava pastries. The Pentagon says it is going to take a hard look at its procedures.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEN. RICHARD MYERS, JOINT CHIEFS CHAIRMAN: Any time you have allegations like this, you always look at your procedures and your process. And that would be natural and normal. So we'll do that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MCINTYRE: Now, the Pentagon insists, it was already looking at how Muslim chaplains are certified, even before the arrests of Captain James Yee, the Muslim chaplain who is also suspected, but not charged with spying. The Pentagon is also going to look at the outside religious organizations that certify the chaplains as well.
And we talked today to Ahmad al-Halabi's lawyer, the airman's lawyer, the young translator. He insists his client is not guilty. He says -- quote -- he told CNN, "He's not a terrorist and not a spy." He also said that he has full access to his client, but that the client has not been able to talk to his father, because he's prohibited in speaking in Arabic, which is the only language his father understands -- Lou.
DOBBS: Jamie, this has to be an immensely sensitive issue for the military. But the allegation is, as Senator Schumer said, the organizations that were providing bona fides for chaplains, how wide is this investigation? How far-reaching is it? What will the Pentagon say about that right now?
MCINTYRE: All they're saying right now is that they have those procedures under review and they're taking a look at the organizations that provide, as you said, the bona fides for chaplains to see if there's a problem there.
But beyond issuing that statement, they're not saying how far the investigation is going.
DOBBS: Thank you very much, Jamie -- Jamie McIntyre, our senior Pentagon correspondent.
President Bush today met with German Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder to put their disagreements over the war against Saddam Hussein behind them. It was the first significant meeting between the two leaders in more than a year. Afterward, President Bush said the differences between the two countries are ended, that he and Schroeder will now work together.
On Capitol Hill today, a number of senators had tough questions on Iraq for Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld. Rumsfeld said the White House request for $87 billion is affordable.
Congressional correspondent Jonathan Karl with the story -- Jonathan.
JONATHAN KARL, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Lou, the administration was out in full force on Capitol Hill today.
In addition to Don Rumsfeld, you also had Paul Bremer before two separate committees up here and also Vice President Cheney in closed- door meetings with Republicans. It was Secretary Rumsfeld, though, that was hit hardest up here before the Senate Appropriations Committee, facing angry Democrats, who questioned whether or not the administration really has a plan for Iraq.
One of the top Democrats, the top Democrat on the committee, suggesting the administration has misled the American people and the Congress about the reasons for war and did not have a mandate for this $87 billion the president now says he needs.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. ROBERT BYRD (D), WEST VIRGINIA: The American people never been told that we're going into that country to build a new nation, to build a new government, to democratize the country and to democratize the Middle East. (CROSSTALK)
BYRD: The American people haven't been told that. They were told we are going in there because of weapons of mass destruction.
DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: The American people were told by the president of the United States at the U.N. and here in the United States the reasons for going in.
Once having gone in, the last thing we need to do is to turn that country over to another dictator like Saddam Hussein. The least we can do is...
BYRD: Nobody's suggesting that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KARL: Republicans, by and large, stood by the president, stood by Don Rumsfeld, although some of them questioned the $20 billion for reconstruction in Iraq and whether or not that shouldn't be a loan to Iraq that would be repaid with future oil revenues.
Now, Rumsfeld and others for the administration have publicly said that that's a bad idea, because Iraq is too much in debt. Vice President Cheney offered a different reason in that closed-door meeting with Republicans. He said that requiring Iraq to repay with its oil revenues would fuel the perception that the war was fought so the U.S. could get ahold of Iraq oil money. He said that would be a bad idea, that this money should be a grant, not expected to be paid back, that the oil revenues should stay in Iraq -- Lou.
DOBBS: Jonathan, thank you very much -- Jonathan Karl from Capitol Hill.
Coming up: do-not-call blocked. The congressman Billy Tauzin, the chairman of the Energy and Commerce Committee, says that decision will not stand, if he has anything to do about it. He joins us.
And then: The candidates in the California recall race, they're preparing to take the stage for the first major debate. Kelly Wallace reports from Sacramento.
And foreign workers imported to the United States taking American jobs. Kitty Pilgrim reports. And we'll have two leading experts to "Face-Off" on a controversial government program.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Coming up: calling for Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld's resignation. Former Ambassador to Iraq Joe Wilson says Secretary Rumsfeld has failed the president, that it's time for him to go. Ambassador Wilson joins us.
Please stay with us. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Tonight, Republican Arnold Schwarzenegger will take part in his first and his only televised debate with his rivals in the California recall election. The other candidates have strongly criticized him for refusing to participate in any other debates. Tonight's debate is being held in Sacramento, California.
Kelly Wallace has the story -- Kelly.
KELLY WALLACE, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Lou, the political observers we have been talking to say they believe the stakes are very high for all the major candidates, but that the pressure is likely to be greatest on Arnold Schwarzenegger.
As you pointed out, it is the first and only debate the political newcomer has agreed to do. Going into this debate, the Schwarzenegger strategy appears to be downplaying expectations. One aide put it this way, saying the debate is important, but that the public also recognizes this is the candidate's first time in such a forum.
However, even with that said, Schwarzenegger's performance could have dramatic implications for his campaign, because his poll numbers have not gone up significantly over recent weeks. Now, the pressure is also on some of the other major candidates in this race, including GOP candidate state Senator Tom McClintock, because some Republicans have been pressing McClintock to get out of the race to avoid splitting the Republican vote.
But a winning performance by McClintock or a major mistake by Schwarzenegger could change some Republican minds. Finally, for the Democratic candidate on the replacement part of the ballot, Lieutenant Governor Cruz Bustamante, many analysts believe his major challenge right now is to do some damage control. His unfavorability ratings have gone up dramatically due to a controversy over him receiving some donations from Native American tribes -- Lou.
DOBBS: Kelly Wallace, reporting from Sacramento, thank you.
CNN will have live coverage of the recall debate tonight. It begins at 9:00 p.m. Eastern, 6:00 p.m. Pacific.
Turning to national politics, a retired four-star general shocked an audience in California when he said he would not be voting for General Wesley Clark in the upcoming presidential election. According to reports, General Hugh Shelton, a former chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, told an audience that integrity and character issues were the reason for General Clark's early departure from his post as NATO commander.
Coming up next: calls for Secretary Rumsfeld to resign. Ambassador Joe Wilson is among those leading the charge. He joins us.
And then: What makes the do-not-call list necessary? Why your personal information is often public knowledge. Peter Viles will report. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: The former Ambassador to Iraq Joe Wilson today called for Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld to resign. Ambassador Wilson offered scathing criticism of Secretary Rumsfeld's decision in the war against Saddam Hussein.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RUMSFELD: Is $87 billion a great deal of money? The answer is yes. Can our country afford it? The answer is also yes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: Ambassador Joe Wilson joins us now from Washington, D.C.
Ambassador, good to have you here.
Why are you calling for the secretary's resignation?
JOSEPH WILSON, FORMER U.S. DEPUTY AMBASSADOR TO IRAQ: Well, good evening, Lou.
Actually, what I've done is, I have associated myself with a campaign to urge Congress to hold the administration to account for its policy in Iraq and to basically insist that, before Congress votes to release $87 billion for the reconstruction effort, that they get from the administration two things: one, the resignation of the administration team that's been responsible for this fiasco, including and first of all Secretary Rumsfeld.
And then the second request or demand is that the president -- that the Congress exact from the president a commitment to turn the authority for the reconstruction effort over to the United Nations as soon as possible.
DOBBS: Joe, the idea of turning over the $87 billion, if that is indeed what Congress does ultimately approve, to the United Nations? Really? You really believe the United Nations can do a better job of administering $87 billion?
WILSON: It's not a question of turning over the expenditure of it. It's a question of real internationalizing the process, so that you actually get the Iraqis to begin to believe that this is not an American occupation, but is in fact a global effort to assist them in their time of need, and after 30 years of Saddam Hussein and the Baath Party, followed by this war and followed by what they perceive to be an American occupation.
DOBBS: Let's assume that President Bush listens to former Ambassador Joe Wilson and decides that, by God, Donald Rumsfeld is gone, asks for his resignation, and he departs. Who would you have take over as secretary of defense? WILSON: Well, first of all, Lou, I would expect that the president is not going to listen to me. But he may well listen to Congress. And it is something that we're asking Congress to do, to hold the administration to account.
There are any number of solid officers within the Republican Party who could stand up and take that job. In actual fact, this team headed by the Defense Department that brought us the ideological underpinning for the war, the prosecution of the war, and now the reconstruction has failed in three fundamental respects.
They have failed the troops. We now have 130,000 troops out there in harm's way. The secretary's insistence on having a fast and light force is in violation of everything we learned when we did Bosnia. And I was part of a team that did the IFOR deployment.
DOBBS: Right.
WILSON: If you want to reduce American casualties, you go in and you occupy the space with heavy troops.
Secondly, I think that they have failed the president. They have provided him with consistently bad advice, underestimating what the response was going to be within Iraq. And, third, I think they have failed the country.
DOBBS: Let me ask you this, because you do have experience, intimate knowledge of the country, its people. The suggestion that the $20 billion for reconstruction, the discussion was going into the war that reconstruction would be paid for by oil revenues from Iraq.
Now the suggestion from the administration, that that would be unseemly and the sensibilities of Iraqis and others might be offended because it would look like this was about oil if we asked them to repay. What is your judgment?
WILSON: Well, more than that, Lou. Just a couple of months ago, Andrew Natsios, the aid director, told Ted Koppel that $1.7 billion was all we were going to spend on reconstruction. Now we've got an $87 billion bill that we're looking at.
So the question becomes, what do they tell each audience? Are they telling each audience what they think they need to tell to get away with what they need to get? And that's why it's really important, I think, this time around that Congress take its responsibility seriously and demand that the administration, that it come clean on what it requires and what sort of a situation we find ourselves in.
DOBBS: Ambassador, let me reassert the question, then, seeking accountability. I asked, do you think that would be offensive to Iraqi sensibilities? Would it in some way underline the idea that this conflict was about oil, should we ask the Iraqis to repay that $20 billion?
WILSON: Well, I believe, Lou, that the Iraqis, who are fierce nationalists and fiercely proud, would want to be responsible for the payment of their own bills.
So, in answer to your specific question, I don't believe that it is unseemly to ask people to pay their own bills. Now, there may be other things that we need to do. Now, remember, Jerry Bremer testified yesterday that, as the occupying power, we have also assumed $200 billion of Iraqi debt.
DOBBS: As always, Ambassador Joe Wilson, we thank you for being with us. Appreciate it.
WILSON: It's good to be with you, Lou.
DOBBS: That brings us to the subject of tonight's poll. The question: Do you think Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld should resign, yes or no? Cast your vote at CNN.com/Lou. We'll have the results later in the show.
Tonight's quote comes from the top U.S. civilian administrator in Iraq -- and we quote -- "Most Iraqis welcomed us as liberators. And we glowed with pleasure at that welcome. But now the reality of foreign troops on the streets is starting to chafe. Some Iraqis are starting to see us more as occupiers than liberators" -- that from ambassador Paul Bremer.
Central Command today said another soldier has been killed in Iraq, the soldier a member of the 101st Airborne Division. He died after an accidental shooting near Mosul; 305 American service men and women have been killed in Iraq since the beginning of the war, 191 killed in action, 114 killed in accidents; 1,630 troops have been wounded or injured, all but 320 of them in combat.
A top general today said thousands more National Guard and Reserve troops could be mobilized for service in Iraq. General Peter Pace, who is vice chairman of Joint Chiefs, said extra troops will be needed if other countries don't provide another multinational division. About 20,000 National Guard and Reserve troops are currently serving in Iraq and Kuwait.
And, in Iraq today, a terrorist bomb exploded near two commuter buses in Baghdad, killing a 17-year-old passenger. At least 12 other people were wounded, five of them seriously. Officials say terrorists intended to attack a nearby U.S. military vehicle.
Five months after the U.S. invasion of Iraq, many Iraqis say the removal of Saddam Hussein is worth any personal hardships they have had to endure, that according to what Gallup calls the first scientific poll conducted in every part of the city of Baghdad. Nearly two-thirds of the citizens of Baghdad say ousting Saddam is worth any personal hardship they've had to put up with.
And in a seemingly even more optimistic note, more than two- thirds of those polled say Iraq will be in better condition five years from now than before the war began.
Coming up here: a U.S. government policy that paves the way for foreign workers to take American jobs. Kitty Pilgrim reports. We'll have two leading experts face off on the controversial H1-B and L-1 visa programs.
And telemarketers are given free rein to call your home. But how do they find out your personal information to begin with? Peter Viles reports.
And Congressman Billy Tauzin, the chairman of the Energy and Commerce Committee, joins us. He says today's ruling will not stand. He joins us next.
Please stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ANNOUNCER: LOU DOBBS TONIGHT continues. Now, "Exporting America."
DOBBS: We've been reporting for weeks on this show about the massive loss of American jobs to foreign countries in our series of special reports, "Exporting America." What is less well known is how tens of thousands of foreigners take jobs in this country every year, under special visa programs. Incredibly, some American workers are training those foreigners to take their own jobs.
Kitty Pilgrim reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KITTY PILGRIM, CNNfn CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Mike Emmons was living a comfortable life in a suburb of Orlando until the company where he worked decided to bring in overseas workers on special visas to replace some of their workers. The worst part, -- the Americans were asked to train replacements before they were let go.
MIKE EMMONS: They held out a carrot for the Americans, a severance. Stay on and train your replacement workers, then you'll get this severance when you leave. I stayed on until November until I landed another job. But what I learned about these H1-B and L-1 visas is very discouraging for American workers.
PILGRIM: Mike's wife went to work. One of their big concerns -- uninterrupted health care coverage for their daughter, born with spinal bifida (sic). Mike found another job at considerably less pay. Lisa says it changed their outlook and their lifestyle.
LISA EMMONS: It's changed my views completely. Everything is different now than it used to be. We didn't have a financial worry really, ever. I can drive through my neighborhood today and there are more "for sale" signs than I have ever seen right now.
PILGRIM: After lobbying by the high-tech industry, Congress expanded the H1-B visa program to bring overseas skilled workers into the country. Workers are supposed to be paid at the same rate as Americans and the company must say that no American was available for the job, conditions experts say are not consistently enforced.
The quota of visas, normally set at 65,000, a year was raised by Congress during the high-tech boom to 115,000 in 1998, then 195,000 in 2000. Because of the high-tech bust, the numbers of visa applications have been dropping, and the quota is expected to drop back to 65,000 this year. But experts say, in this economy that is still too high.
PROF. NORM MATLOFF, UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA - DAVIS: We've got hundreds of thousands of people in this field, American workers are out of work. We have no business allowing 65,000 people to come in from abroad and take their place.
PILGRIM: Another visa, the L-1, used within a company to transfer overseas managers to this country for temporary assignment, has also generated an influx of workers. Those who studied the issue carefully, like Michael Teitelbaum, say although visas have legitimate uses, loopholes are widely exploited.
MICHAEL TEITELBAUM, SLOAN FOUNDATION: There are some employers who use them responsibly and very parsimoniously and make a serious effort to hire domestic workers before they go abroad to hire. But those employers do not account for a very large fraction of 195,000 visas per year.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: Now the first solution is to enforce the rules of equal pay. And the second, and Congress is in the process of doing this, is to decide just how many so-called specialists are required from overseas. Perhaps it's not as many as the companies say they need -- Lou.
DOBBS: Kitty, thank you very much. Kitty Pilgrim.
In tonight's "Face Off": "Should foreign workers be allow allowed into the United States on those special visas?"
Republican Congressman Tom Tancredo of Colorado says the visas destroy American jobs, and should be abolished.
Harris Miller is the President of the Information Technology Association of America and says U.S. companies need those foreign workers to remain competitive.
To you both, welcome. We appreciate you being here.
TOM TANCREDO (R), COLORADO: Thanks, Lou.
DOBBS: Congressman, if I may begin with you.
TANCREDO: Sure.
DOBBS: These visas, apparently, for years, were not given much notice. Congress approved the approach. How -- what are we -- what we to do here?
TANCREDO: Well, what happened -- you're absolutely right. We have had the H1-B visa program for many years. It just wasn't really used very much until -- until a couple of things happened. Of course, there was a high-tech boom, and at that time, employers started to figure out that they could actually displace American workers, higher-paid workers, by bringing cheaper labor into this country. And they saw a way to do it. It was called the H1-B visa. Someone on your program a minute ago, one of the experts, said that not all companies do it. That is true. Some are very judicious about it. But many, many -- in fact, I would say the majority abuse this dramatically and have actually brought in now about 800,000 people right here, right now, on H1-B visas.
DOBBS: And another 400,000 on the L-1 visa for...
TANCREDO: Which is growing dramatically.
DOBBS: And let me turn to you, Harris.
Can this really be allowed to stand when we're sitting here with 6 percent unemployment; we have technology workers without jobs and we're importing people to take their jobs?
HARRIS MILLER, PRES., INFORMATION TECHNOLOGY ASSOCIATION OF AMERICA: Well, let me try to introduce some facts into discussion. It might be more useful for viewers. Number one, the number of...
DOBBS: Whoa! Whoa! Whoa! Harris...
MILLER: Unfortunately, Kitty's report didn't report -- conclude the fact. The number of H1-B visas users that came into the country in computer in 2002, according to the Department of Homeland Security, dropped 25,000, the lowest number in seven years.
So the program is working as intended. Where there is a shortage of I.T. workers, the numbers go up. When there's not a shortage, the numbers go down. The cap that Congress imposed said that's the maximum number. That's not the actual number. And if Congressman Tancredo was correct, and the program were being used to bring in cheap labor, then why wouldn't the employers bring in every single one of the 195,000?
DOBBS: Well, Harris, I'm sorry to get involved, but Harris has been a little direct.
One, Miss Pilgrim did not report that those were I.T. workers but total visas extend.
MILLER: But the total number of visas was also down, Lou, with all due respect.
DOBBS: She reported they were down to 65,000
MILLER: No, that isn't what she reported. She reported the numbers inaccurately.
DOBBS: OK. Congressman, you have a run.
TANCREDO: OK. Somebody is certainly inaccurate about the numbers. One I'm looking at right here, the most recent numbers, given to me show the visas issued in 2002, 79,100, 2002. Now they are down this year to about -- well, there's 59,000 have been issued so far this year, another 15,000 in the pipeline. That's so far this year.
Now -- but the point is this, Lou. Yes, the visas numbers are down, and here's why. It's not because all of these corporations are doing it just by the book. It's because there are fewer jobs, number one. And number two, because they found another loophole, another visa category that they are using and the numbers are rising in. It's called L-1, where they can, by intracompany transfers, bring in the same people and oust American workers. That's what's happening. That's why the numbers in H1-B are going down.
MILLER: Again, with all due respect, Congressman, I think the numbers from the Department of Homeland Security show the L-1 visas dropped again from 2001, to 2002 projected to drop again in 2003. The other thing...-
(CROSSTALK)
MILLER: So the program is working as intended. When unemployment is going up, the number of visas is going down. If the congressman's objection were correct, that this is a cheap labor program, then again I ask why wouldn't employers use the maximum number the law allows? They would use all 195,000. The 79,000 the congressman referred to -- again, those include health care workers, those include fashion models, those include short order chefs. Of those 79,000, 25,000, according to the Department of Homeland Security are in I.T., which is down dramatically. It's the lowest number since the mid 90s.
TANCREDO: And what is happened to the L-1 category? It is up dramatically. The highest numbers that we have ever had. Why? Because they are -- that's the alternative loophole.
You're right. Congress has put pressure on them. It's absolutely true. There's a lot of heat that's been -- that's been applied here and so companies are saying, you know what? We better look at this a little more carefully, figure out a different way to do it. They have done that. It's called L-1s.
And, of course, it's also true that there are have fewer jobs available. That's actually another reason why it's going down. But that isn't because everybody in the corporate -- everyone in corporate America is just saying, let's live by and play by the rules. That's simply not the case.
DOBBS: Let me ask you this, Harris, following up on the congressman's point. How many people are in the United States on L-1 and H1-B visas right now?
MILLER: The best we can determine, about 200,000 on H1. It's hard to tell because, unfortunately, the immigration department doesn't do a very good job of tracking people (UNINTELLIGIBLE). But about 200,000 on H-1s. L-1s, it looks like it's about 100,000 to 125,000, the best we can tell.
TANCREDO: There have been over 800,000 H1-B visas, and reapplications. We have no idea -- are you telling me you believe that 600,000 have gone home over the course of the last six or eight years? I mean, that's simply impossible. You know as well as I do, that the numbers are much closer to 800,000 here than 200,000.
MILLER: Congressman, the numbers are impossible. The maximum number that came in in any one year under the H1-Bs, as you said yourself, was a little over 150,000. According to the Department of Homeland Security, over half the H1-Bs stay here less than three years.
TANCREDO: No, they don't. They stay here longer than three years. They just keep applying or some of them, of course, don't go home at all. And there's absolutely not one single thing that we have ever done to try to enforce the law. That's another problem.
Not one person who has been -- has been, to my knowledge, not one single person has been expelled from this country because they overstayed their H1-B visa.
DOBBS: Has anyone been expelled, Harris, in your knowledge?
MILLER: As far as I know, yes, according to the Department of Homeland Security.
(CROSSTALK)
TANCREDO: How many? How many?
MILLER: Congressman has the power...
(CROSSSTALK)
MILLER: I can't yell against the congressman.
TANCREDO: You're absolutely wrong on that and you know it. No one has been deported because they've extended their H1-B visas.
MILLER: The other thing that's important to realize, Lou, the H1-B Visa program is an interesting program. What Congressman Tancredo Callings crafted the program, then made it a program in a fish bowl. This is a program everybody, you, the Congressman, workers on the street, can find out exactly what H1-B workers are being paid. If somebody doesn't like that, they can file a complaint with the Department of Labor, which is required to enforce the law and take action against the employer community.
DOBBS: I have to share with you the e-mails we receive from our viewers laying out H1-B programs the stories that we have received from people and I mean lots of them. Talk about training people for jobs that they're supposedly bringing in because the skills weren't available to be replaced.
By the way, the numbers that we have, just to put it forward, let me give the source, University of California Davis. The estimated holders of H1-B Visa in this country right now is 856,000, L-1 Visa holders, 325,000.
MILLER: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) that's Norman Mattloff (ph) who has had a personal problem with immigration for a long time. I subjects that congressman believes those numbers.
(CROSSTALK)
TANCREDO: There's -- how many report dozen you want?
MILLER: He has the authority to ask the General Accounting Office as a member of Congress. I'd be glad to work with him.
DOBBS: If I man say something Congressmen, as we wrap up, one of the things that is maddeningly frustrating to us, in the special series in "Exporting America," is the federal government, the Commerce Department, the Labor Department, the Department of Homeland Security, none of them have figures that tell us who is crossing our borders, under what circumstances, who remains, who goes, who's deported. It is a remarkable situation. Whether one is to look at it from the issue of employment security, economic security, or national security itself. It is a remarkable.
(CROSSTALK)
TANCREDO: That is certainly true, Lou. If I went tomorrow to either the president of the United States, I'm afraid, or the leadership in the Congress, with the full proof plan to actually control our own borders and stop all illegal immigration into this country and significantly even reduce legal immigration so we can begin to get a handle on this problem that you've described, I'd be thrown out by the ear.
The reason, Lou, is because we have a cheap labor policy. We do not want to reduce it. We do not want to stop either illegal immigration or reduce even the legal ways in which people come in here and actually throw American workers out of work because it's less expensive to do so. It's a horrible thing to say. I wish I didn't have to, but it's the way it is.
DOBBS: I ask here on our own network if we had H1-B Visa holders and the answer is, yes. It's a remarkable situation in every respect.
Harris, you get the final word.
MILLER: One point, I hope your series would raise the United States runs a trade surplus with the rest of the world in two areas, airplane manufacturing, that's because we got only one of two companies in the world that makes them and I.T. We run $7.9 billion surplus with the rest of the world.
As you know, as you report every night, we run a trade deficit in everything else you can think of, automobiles, textiles, oil, et cetera. The reason we want to surplus the rest of the world is we have the best I.T. industry in the world and it's important that your viewers understand that.
DOBBS: I don't think anyone here -- any of our viewers of this broadcast will be surprised that this country is preeminent in technology. I think it's one of the reasons they're stunned to find we don't have the adequate skills and opinions of some corporations to put Americans into jobs rather than H1-B and L-1 Visa holders.
Harris, thank you much. Congressman we thank you very much for being with us.
Tomorrow here in "Exporting America," we will find out why thousands of jobs and new semiconductor plants were shipped overseas and what it will take to bring those jobs back to the United States.
"Tonight's Thought" is on unemployment.
"A man willing to work and unable to find work is perhaps the saddest sight that fortune's inequality exhibits under this sun."
That from author Thomas Carlyle.
Coming up next, Congressman Billy Tauzin on today's "Do Not Call" decision and what Congress plans to do about it. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Today's ruling by a federal judge blocking the national "Do Not Call" registry calls attention to an issue that Corporate America and telemarketers would rather not publicize -- you're privacy, or your rather lack thereof. Most major banks share or even sell personal information about clients and that is with other companies.
Peter Viles, reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
PETER VILES, CNNFn CORRESPONDENT: This ad for Pacific Life makes a simple promise, we don't sell information about our clients to anyone, period. You'd think big financial companies would be able to take that pledge and you would be dead wrong. They share your information in a big way.
TRAVIS PLUNKETT, CONSUMER FEDERATION OF AMERICA: In shorthand we call it your financial DNA. This is what you spend your money on, what your credit card is used for, how much you spend, when, everything. It provides an astonishing amount of information that can be easily misused if someone chooses to do so.
VILES: Check out your bank's privacy policy. Chase, quote, "we share information about you with other companies." Bank One, quote, "we may share any of the personal information that we collect about you with companies or other organizations outside of the Bank One family." Wells Fargo, "we share information with nonaffiliated third parties." Citigroup, quote, "we may facilitate relevant offers from reputable companies." There is so much information being shared, if you're smart enough, you can go out and buy some of it yourself.
JAMIE COURT, FOUNDATION FOR TAXPAYER & CONSUMER RIGHTS: I was able to go on the Internet and buy for $26 the social security numbers of John Ashcroft, CIA Director George Tenet and just about every other cabinet member, that's how available the information is. The home address, social security number available for $26 because the banks and insurers trade this information very freely.
VILES: One exception to the rule, Bank of America, which quote, "does not sell or share any customer information with marketers outside Bank of America."
(END VIDEOTAPE)
VILES: What has Congress done to protect your financial privacy? Not all that much. You can tell your bank not to share information with third parties but under federal law you can't prevent your bank from giving your profile to its affiliates and banks have literally hundreds of business affiliates and share your information with them -- Lou.
DOBBS: Pete, thank you very much. Peter Viles.
I'm joined now by Congressman Billy Tauzin, he is the chairman of the House Energy and Commerce Committee. His committee passed the legislation allowing regulators to create the "Do Not Call" registry and he says he's confident this ruling won't stand. He joins us from Washington.
Congressman, good to have you with us.
REP. BILLY TAUZIN (R), LOUISIANA: Good to be with you.
DOBBS: This is a remarkable decision. What are you going to do about it? If it comes to that?
TAUZIN: Look, see, I've just signed the bill. This is a two sentence bill. I've just signed it. We're going to file it as soon as I get off the show. Tomorrow it's up by the floor, (UNINTELLIGIBLE) third up after the continuing resolution is passed on to keep the government open in October. And the Senate is preparing a similar bill they are going file tomorrow under unanimous consent. I predict by tomorrow, we will put on the president's desk a bill for him to sign -- this bill, that will give the FCC clear authority regardless of what this judge thinks and we'll also put in place a "do not call" list October 1. This will get cured tomorrow.
DOBBS: Can you hear that sound, Congressman?
That's 50 million folks cheering right now.
TAUZIN: Not only that, but we're going to hang up on the telemarketers with 50 million people tomorrow. I'm one of the 50 million, by the way. And 50 million Americans can't be wrong, Lou. They want this, we want it, the president wants it. We're going to deliver it tomorrow. DOBBS: I think that a lot of viewers have to be stunned that the U.S. Congress is moving this quickly. I know that stunned or not, they're deeply appreciative. I know, as one of the 50 million, so am I. There's also the spam control legislation.
How far will you reach there?
TAUZIN: Well, we're not there yet. We're in the process of negotiating with the Democrats on an acceptable version of the spam legislation. We have agreed on a version with the Judiciary Committee. We're now negotiating with the Democrats on our committee to get a final version out. And it's just as important. You ought to be able to say no to people that call you when you don't want to be called in the evening with your family. You can today shut down unwanted mail at the post office by simply letting the Postal Service know you don't want that mail. You ought to do the same thing with the computer.
To those who say this is a free speech issue, the answer is that this is not about speech, this is about your right not to hear, not to listen. And if you don't want to listen -- husband's know this, Lou -- it's called selective hearing, remember?
DOBBS: I'm not going to join you there Congressman.
TAUZIN: If you don't want to listen, you ought to be able to say, don't call me, and get on this list. 50 million Americans have signed up for this. This court in Oklahoma's not going to stop it.
DOBBS: Congressman Billy Tauzin, our compliments. We wish you, I think the expression would be appropriate here, Godspeed with the legislation. We thank you for taking time to be with us.
TAUZIN: Just remember Lou, the congress is a slow beast. But when 50 million Americans say they want something done, we can be a speedy rabbit.
DOBBS: You got it. Thanks a lot. Congressman Billy Tauzin.
Still ahead here, we'll share some of your thoughts. And a triple digit loss for the Dow. Christine Romans will have the market for us. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Stocks tumbled today on Wall Street following a surprise decision by OPEC to cut worldwide oil production. The Dow Industrial is down more than 150 points, the Nasdaq off 58. The S&P 500, down nearly 20 points. Christine Romans here with the market -- Christine.
CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN FINANCIAL CORRESPONDENT: It was the worst day for the Dow, well, in about a week, but the biggest drop for the Dow in five months. On better than average volume, only two Dow stocks were higher, Proctor and Gamble and McDonald's. McDonald's higher because it's raising it's dividend. But the rest of this market, slammed. OPEC's cut launched crude more than a dollar higher to close above $28. After months of stronger economic data, higher oil prices were seen, by some, as a threat to the economic recovery.
Now a warning from Viacom also hurt, local advertising markets weaker there. The third quarter reporting season right around the corner. so A warning from a big company like Viacom got some people's attention.
A standout today though Lou,, Level 3 communications up 11 percent after the SEC filing showed that Warren Buffett owns almost 20 million shares. You know, Warren Buffett doesn't like to disclose what he has.
DOBBS We should cover that up. He doesn't like people to know that.
ROMANS: Yes, he says it makes the copy caters out there drive the stock price higher. That's exactly what happened today.
DOBBS: And the big pension funds down on Wall Street, talking to the New York Stock Exchange.
ROMANS: Absolutely, calling for reform, calling for a variety of things.
DOBBS: Real tough reform, go get them reform?
ROMANS: Well, they weren't calling for anyone's resignation, they're looking for the board to be smaller, with more investor representation later on. But, you know, there are some people -- critics screaming they'd like some of these board members gone. It looks as though the pension fund managers, they want to work with these guys to get some reform.
DOBBS: Sure. Do they want the security firms off the board?
ROMANS: Well, they're talking about that as well.
DOBBS: Do they want to get the New York Stock Exchange out of the self-regulation business?
ROMAN: They want to divide its regulatory business arms.
DOBBS: Okay. The beat goes on.
ROMANS: A lot of talking still. The SEC will have the ultimate word on this.
DOBBS: Absolutely. Thanks a lot, Christine Romans.
When we continue the results of tonight's poll. Also we'll have some of your thoughts on exporting America. including questions about this network's parent company and others. We'll share your thoughts next. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: The results of tonight's poll. Do you think Secretary Rumsfeld should resign? 88 percent of you voting yes, 12 percent no.
Taking a look at some your thoughts. Sheila Connely of Sarasota, Florida on exporting America, "I feel it is hypocritical that Mr. Dobbs points the shame on you finger at other companies while failing to disclose that Time Warner exports tons of jobs, such as AOL tech support to India." Sheila we couldn't agree with you more. Here are the numbers, and they're not pretty. AOL employs 1,800 workers in India, in addition to 1,000 workers at a customer service center in the Philippines. Earlier this year, America Online laid off 425 of its customer service people in this country.
Laurelei Craft of Park Rapids, Minnesota, "75 of the full-time jobs that went overseas this year were sent there by the Republican National Committee, who contracted with a firm in India to do its telemarketing fund-raising." Laurelei, you've been misinformed. So have a lot of other people who have written in on this subject for some time.
The Republican National Committee says the claim is without merit. In fact, it has demanded the Web site that wrongly accused them of fundraising in India to cease and desist. All vendors for the RNC are contractually obligated to have their phone calls to originate in the United States.
And in bipartisan fashion, the Democratic National Committee also confirmed to us that all of its employees are in this country.
We love hearing from you. Email us at loudobbs@cnn.com. That's our show for tonight. Thanks for being with us. For all of us here, good night from New York. "ANDERSON COOPER 360" is next.
END
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Debates Tonight; Some Calling For Secretary Rumsfeld's Resignation>
