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Lou Dobbs Tonight
White House Faces Firestorm Over Alleged Leak; Immigration Exploding in America
Aired September 29, 2003 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT for Monday, September 29. Here now, Lou Dobbs.
LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening.
Tonight, the White House is at the center of political storm. The Justice Department has launched an inquiry into who gave a nationally syndicated columnist the name of a CIA agent. That agent is Valerie Plame. She is married to former Ambassador Joe Wilson. The CIA dispatched Wilson to Niger to investigate claims that Iraq was trying to buy uranium in Africa. The columnist is our CNN colleague Robert Novak, who, on July 14, reported Wilson's wife was a CIA operative, that report in his nationally syndicated newspaper column.
The White House said it is cooperating with the Department of Justice investigation.
Senior White House correspondent John King has the report -- John.
JOHN KING, CNN SR. WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Lou, it was the CIA that requested that the Justice Department launch an investigation of how this was leaked.
It is legal to leak the information, the name, of an undercover CIA operative. The White House today says it has not received any contact from the Justice Department, no requests to interview White House aides, no requests for documents, like phone logs or e-mail records and the type. The White House today saying it believes, though, the Justice Department can handle the investigation.
The press secretary here at the White House, Scott McClellan, on a day Mr. Bush himself refused to answer shouted questions about all of this, Scott McClellan saying he rejects the Democrats' calls for a special counsel, an independent counsel, or special prosecutor. He also says there's no need to have an internal White House investigation.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SCOTT MCCLELLAN, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: The president has been -- I spoke for him earlier today. The president believes leaking classified information is a very serious matter and it should be pursued to the fullest extent by the appropriate agency. And the appropriate agency is the Department of Justice.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: Now, at one point, Ambassador Wilson had pointed the finger to Karl Rove, the president's senior political adviser, saying he believed Rove was responsible for the leak. Ambassador Wilson backing away from that today, saying he's not sure who leaked the information.
And we're told that Rove has emphatically denied any involvement at all directly to Scott McClellan, the press secretary, and other senior officials here. But, today, more evidence that there are not only legal questions for the administration to answer, but a growing political controversy as well. Almost all of the Democratic candidates for president have demanded an independent investigation by a special counsel.
Those on Capitol Hill, Democrats on Capitol Hill, also doing so, including the Senate Democratic leader, Tom Daschle, who tonight has sent the president a letter saying Attorney General Ashcroft has known about this allegation for more than two months, still has not done anything about it. In the view of the Democrats, Lou, that is proof that the attorney general doesn't take it seriously, the White House doesn't take it seriously. They will continue to demand a special prosecutor -- Lou.
DOBBS: And that demand must satisfied, in point of fact, by the attorney general, correct, John?
KING: Correct. It is the attorney general's call.
The old law of independent counsels that got us Ken Starr and others during the Clinton administration, that law has expired. It is now up to the attorney general to name a presidential prosecutor or independent counsel. But the president could, of course, ask him to do so. But it's the attorney general's call.
DOBBS: Obviously, at this point, it is a highly partisan, charged issue. But the White House itself, John, in responding to these charges, said -- quote -- "There is nothing to suggest any White House involvement in the leak." That doesn't sound, at least to me, John, like a categorical denial. Is that what the White House intended?
KING: Well, the White House is saying it has no information that anyone inside these gates leaked the information and that it is not the practice of this White House, that the president would not tolerate it.
But as Scott McClellan put it earlier today, he does not know who anonymous is. He did go to Karl Rove, because Karl Rove had been specifically blamed by Ambassador Wilson. Scott McClellan said he went to ask Karl Rove and that Karl Rove said he had nothing to do with this. But as to whether it could anyone else inside the White House, they continue to say they don't think so. But they say they don't know, of course, because the sources were not named in the media accounts.
DOBBS: John, thank you very much -- John King, senior White House correspondent.
Robert Novak tonight said no one in the administration called him to leak the information about Valerie Plame. Novak said the information came from conversations he had with two senior administration officials.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "CROSSFIRE")
ROBERT NOVAK, CO-HOST: As a professional journalist with 46 years experience in Washington, I do not reveal confidential sources. When I called the CIA in July, they confirmed Mrs. Wilson's involvement in a mission for her husband on a secondary basis, who is -- he is a former Clinton administration official. They asked me not to use her name, but never indicated it would endanger her or anybody else.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: Robert Novak.
Now, the identity of the CIA agent was released to the public in Novak's syndicated newspaper column on July 14. So far, it's unclear whether that leak has damaged her ability to do her job.
Our national security correspondent, David Ensor, has the report.
David, how much do we know about Valerie Plame and her past?
DAVID ENSOR, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Well, we don't know much officially.
It is my understanding that she is an employee of the operations side of the CIA, that she's had a long and I think distinguished career, as far as I can tell, as someone who's been out in the field collecting intelligence. So for her name to come out would be very damaging, in the sense it would probably prevent her from doing that in the future.
It would also be damaging, in the sense that anybody that she set up as a source of information, who perhaps doesn't realize that they are providing information to the U.S. government and not to some other entity, now knows that this person with that name is a CIA officer. So it could close some intelligence sources. It could shut down some methods that have been used successfully in the past. So it's a serious matter. And that's why it's a felony.
DOBBS: And, David, as you know, there's been at least one report suggesting that it was known that Valerie Plame worked for the CIA. Do we know how extensive that knowledge was?
ENSOR: How extensive where? I'm not quite sure what you mean.
DOBBS: A report in "The National Review," as I'm sure you're aware, suggesting that there was every indication that some people knew that she worked for the CIA. ENSOR: Well, there certainly were some people who knew the family, who knew of where she worked. It was perhaps not a top-secret matter. But, technically, there's a law against revealing in public in the media, for example, the identity of a covert operator for the CIA. And that is what apparently occurred in this case.
DOBBS: And, David, it's very early, of course, but has there been, as best we can determine, any impact on national security?
ENSOR: We really can't tell at this point. That's going to be one of the things that will have to be looked into by the Justice Department, presumably getting some help from the Central Intelligence Agency on that one.
DOBBS: David, thank you very much -- David Ensor, our national security correspondent reporting from Washington.
Leading Democrats today called for an independent inquiry into who leaked the CIA agent's name.
One Democratic Senator, Charles Schumer of New York, said the Justice Department should appoint an independent counsel.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. CHARLES SCHUMER (D), NEW YORK: I heard that the White House press person today said that, well, this is just another leak and we deal with leaks all the time.
That statement is outrageous. When was the last time that a covert agent's name was leaked, jeopardizing that agent's life, the life of that agent's network of informants, and the security of this country? This is not just an ordinary leak.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: And members of Congress are also criticizing the intelligence used by the White House to justify the war against Saddam Hussein. The leadership of the House Intelligence Committee says the intelligence was vague and outdated. And later in the show tonight, I'll be joined by one of the lawmakers making those charges. Congresswoman Jane Harman, ranking Democrat on the House Intelligence Committee, is our guest.
My next guest served as head of Central Intelligence from 1993 through 1995. He says there should be an investigation into the leak of the CIA agent's name, and the person or persons responsible should be punished.
James Woolsey joins us from Washington.
JAMES WOOLSEY, FORMER CIA DIRECTOR: Good to be with you.
DOBBS: Good to have you here.
The idea that this leak originated in the White House, or at least amongst senior Bush administration officials, is it appropriate to leave this to the Justice Department? Or, in your judgment, Jim, should this White House get to the bottom of it as quickly as possible?
WOOLSEY: Well, I don't think you can have an independent counsel for every time there's a leak, but this is a serious leak. And there are allegations that some senior official, at least, was involved. It seems to me, we ought to let the Justice Department do its job here for a while and see how it goes.
But I must say, this is not a small matter. CIA officers in the clandestine service meet with all sorts of people in the course of their careers. And, as David Ensor's fine report just pointed out, you can endanger intelligence and people's lives by revealing the identities of CIA case officers. So it's a serious matter.
DOBBS: Do you know Valerie Plame?
WOOLSEY: No.
DOBBS: Do you have any reason to think that her name was at least known in Washington circles as a CIA employee?
WOOLSEY: I have no idea. I had never heard of her before this came out.
DOBBS: And the idea that Robert Novak, our colleague here on CNN, reported her name in his column on July 14, his newspaper column, your assessment, from your perspective, as the former head of CIA, a public servant, that any journalist would report that information?
WOOLSEY: Well, I wish it hadn't happened.
But I think the objective in these cases is not to blame the journalists, but rather the leakers. I had occasion on more than once when I was director of Central Intelligence to go to major media news outlets and explain that a story that they were about to run, something they were checking with us, if it included a particular fact or two could endanger someone's life. And I was successful on several occasions -- well, each time I asked -- in having the relevant material withheld.
It didn't undercut the basic story. But it does seem to me, it's up to someone in the government to explain to Bob Novak or anybody else why a particular fact shouldn't be revealed and could be quite dangerous.
DOBBS: And so you would not blame Robert Novak for having reported that...
WOOLSEY: No.
DOBBS: ... the agent's name?
Let's turn to another matter of broader intelligence issues. And that is what appears to be a continuing failure to understand what is happening both in Iraq and the Middle East. Is it your judgment that more has to be done here to improve U.S. intelligence, whether it be from State, from the military side, or the CIA?
WOOLSEY: Absolutely.
I think that Porter Goss, the chairman of the House committee, had a very good point when he pointed out, in this recent report, that we didn't have enough collection by individuals on the ground. There are some things that really can only be done by spies, essentially. You can't find out a lot about terrorist groups and some other things by the satellites.
And it may well be that Congresswoman Harman -- and these are both very distinguished public servants -- also has a point that some of the analysis was not well done. But, in a lot of cases where you're not getting good intelligence, you want to look to collection and to the sources. And here, we probably needed a lot more people on the ground than we had.
DOBBS: Let me ask the question this way. This is -- obviously, we're going into the presidential election of next year. The campaigns are heating up. It's a highly partisan, charged issue. But, at the same time, are we in danger of letting that mask the serious, substantive issues here, the risk to the nation because of intelligence that is not at the level that anyone would want it to be?
WOOLSEY: This can get very tangled up. We're going into what may be a very hot presidential campaign in which intelligence and foreign intelligence may play a central role in a way that it hasn't, perhaps ever.
I think the heart of the matter is that every American ought to be on the side of more effective intelligence against terrorist groups and groups like the Baathists in Iraq. And that requires resources, but it also requires ingenuity. And it requires being willing to cast aside some of the sort of politically correct constraints of the past, such as the regulations that George Tenet recently got rid of that dated from the mid-'90s that deterred CIA case officers from recruiting spies if those spies might have some violence in their past.
Well, all terrorists have some kind of violence, probably, in their past. So there were some things that we've done to tie ourselves in knots that are now I think being fixed. But it's going to take a bit of time before we get back into a world in which we have really effective intelligence, as I think we did in the human intelligence realm for some time during the Cold War.
Oleg Kalugin, former head of the KGB's counterintelligence side against the United States, and I once compared notes on this. I asked him how well the CIA did vs. the KGB in the Cold War. He said, "You outdid us about 5-1." And I think that's not a bad number.
DOBBS: And let's hope the ratio continues against all adversaries.
WOOLSEY: Absolutely.
DOBBS: James Woolsey, thank you very much for being with us.
And, as I said, Congresswoman Jane Harman will be joining us, she, the ranking Democrat on the House Intelligence Committee, joining us later in the show.
Coming up next: One of the most notorious figures of the corporate crime wave has his first day in court. Peter Viles will report.
Arnold Schwarzenegger is back on top in the latest polls, only eight days left until the recall election. Our senior political correspondent, Candy Crowley, will report.
And tonight, we begin our weeklong series of special reports on what this nation gives away, including our priceless citizenship. Kitty Pilgrim reports on the "Great American Giveaway."
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Well, as you saw, more than 22 months since Enron filed for bankruptcy, the Enron task force has failed to charge former chairman and CEO Ken Lay. Ken Lay has rejected the Securities and Exchange Commission's request for information.
And, today, the SEC filed a subpoena enforcement action to force Ken Lay to provide that requested information. The SEC originally requested documents back in January of 2002. That's right, more than a year and a half ago. And, certainly, no one can accuse the SEC of being less than patient with Mr. Lay. Lay is citing his Fifth Amendment rights against self-incrimination in not turning over the requested information.
In New York today, two major corporate criminal trials began. Dennis Kozlowski, the former CEO of Tyco, today became the first CEO of a major corporation to face a jury. Kozlowski was charged with looting the company of more than half-a-billion dollars. In a separate case, former investment banker Frank Quattrone faced jury selection.
Peter Viles has the report for us -- Peter, quite a day.
PETER VILES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, it is quite a day.
The government's favorite charge in these cases to date has been obstruction of justice. Essentially, you lied to us. And this is what makes the Kozlowski trial different. This is the first major trial in which the government will argue not just that you lied to us, but you stole from your shareholders.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
VILES (voice-over): A makeover for Dennis Kozlowski. He lost weight, shaved his head for his historic trial. He's accused of looting his old company, Tyco International, and spending the money spectacularly bad taste. Somewhere inside his Manhattan apartments was allegedly a $6,000 shower curtain. He allegedly spent $2 million on a birthday for his wife at which Vodka spouted from the private parts of an ice sculpture of Michelangelo's "David."
And if he's convicted, it will be a dark day, indeed, for the catering industry. Kozlowski threw yet another big party this just weekend, a lavish wedding for his daughter on Nantucket.
JACOB ZAMANSKY, SHAREHOLDER RIGHTS ATTORNEY: This is the first case to judge the imperial CEO, a CEO who put his own interests head of those of his company and the employees. And it's going to symbolize the greed that took place in the 1990s. And this could set the tone for other cases.
VILES: But, as jury selection began, Judge Michael Obus warned the jury not to think about sending a message -- quote -- "It is not a case of Enron or WorldCom or any other company you may have heard about. What you need to do is listen."
IRA SORKIN, CARTER, LEDYARD & MILBURN: I think, over a four- month trial, the jury will not see themselves as the avenging angels for alleged corporate greed and I think will focus on the evidence, focus on the judge's instructions, and come up with a verdict.
VILES: Two blocks away, in federal court, former investment banker Frank Quattrone showed up for jury selection. Quattrone stands accused of obstruction of justice during an investigation of the IPO market.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
VILES: Quattrone is the first big investment banker to stand trial, Kozlowski, of course, the first prominent CEO. You may remember, Kozlowski faces a separate set of charges, tax evasion charges, alleging he evaded $1 million dollar in sales taxes on a handful of expensive paintings, including a Renoir and Monet. So not bad taste in art, anyway, Lou.
DOBBS: The charges not directly related to his interest in shareholder value?
VILES: No. It's a separate case that would come after.
DOBBS: And Frank Quattrone, he got a bad draw on the judge, right?
VILES: He certainly did. The judge in this case is known to be very tough, Richard Owen, 81 years old.
Recently, he heard an insider trading case. It was a cooperating witness who pled guilty. The government said, you don't have to send this person to jail. The judge said, oh, yes and I do, and sent this person to jail for three months, even though the prosecution didn't ask for it.
DOBBS: Well, some judges don't require a request. (LAUGHTER)
DOBBS: All right, Peter Viles, thank you.
Turning now to what could soon become another type of corporate crime, telemarketing, the Federal Communications Commission today said it will enforce the country's do-not-call list beginning the day after tomorrow. The Federal Trade Commission, which operates the list, has been blocked from enforcing it by two federal judges.
However, President Bush today signed a law into effect that would give the FTC the authority to enforce that list. Americans have registered more than 50 million telephone numbers on the do-not-call list. Telemarketers who fail to obey it will face fines.
In California, the recall election is a week from tomorrow. And a new poll suggests it won't be close. The CNN/"USA Today"/Gallup poll shows Arnold Schwarzenegger has a commanding lead over his opponents in the race for California governor. It also shows Governor Gray Davis has a lot of work to do if he even thinks about keeping his job.
Candy Crowley reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CANDY CROWLEY, CNN SR. POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Sixty-three percent of Californians likely to vote want to dump him. What's a governor to do?
First, boil it down to a simple question -- Gray Davis or Arnold Schwarzenegger?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He ducks tough questions. Didn't vote in 13 of the last 21 elections, and now he refuses to debate the governor he's trying to replace. Vote no on the recall.
CROWLEY: Message -- you really want a newbie running California? And a Republican newbie at that.
The lieutenant governor, Cruz Bustamante, sinking in the polls, heavily Democratic California can no longer comfort itself that they can throw out Davis and put another Democrat in.
So the Davis campaign will spend its final full week before the election, suggesting to its less than through Democratic base that this is not about car taxes red ink spending or even the 34 candidates who want to be governor. This is about Arnold Schwarzenegger and whether Democrats, regardless of how they feel about Davis, really want to give the governorship to a Republican.
As unique and unprecedented, etcetera, etcetera, as this recall race may be, Davis' survival is Politics 101. He needs tried and true Democrats in the voting booth a week from tomorrow.
Today, Governor Bill Richardson, the Democrats' most visible Latino, is beating the hustings with Davis.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CROWLEY: Tomorrow, it will be Terry McAuliffe, the DNC chairman. Think labor vote, Lou. And the Davis campaign is working very hard to try to get former President Bill Clinton to make a return appearance -- Lou.
DOBBS: Bill Clinton campaigning wall-to-wall for the next week for Governor Davis or just sort of a tepid appearance?
CROWLEY: Probably not wall-to-wall.
But I tell you, he was out here before. And he, as you know, is very popular among the Democratic base, which, at this point, is where Davis is going. They went to an African-American church here in Los Angeles. And so Clinton is a very good get-out-the-grassroots person. It won't be wall-to-wall. He was out here for I think two events. But they'd dearly love to have him come back maybe this weekend on the eve of the vote.
DOBBS: The former president. How about the former vice president, Senator Clinton?
CROWLEY: So far, while she's made one phone appearance at a rally, we do not expect to see former -- to see current Senator Hillary Clinton out here. I think the Davis campaign would have liked that. She's pretty much stayed clear.
DOBBS: Candy, thank you very much -- Candy Crowley reporting.
Coming up next tonight in our series of special reports on the "Great American Giveaway," American citizen. Kitty Pilgrim will report. And Eduardo Aguirre of the Department of Homeland Security joins us.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Tonight, we begin a series of special reports on what the United States gives away to the rest of the world. Tonight, we focus on citizenship.
More than 33 million people live in the United States who are immigrants. One million of those entered the country legally last year. An estimated 500,000 to 700,000 illegal aliens also entered the country last year.
Kitty Pilgrim joins us now with the story -- Kitty.
KITTY PILGRIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, the numbers are absolutely huge.
Immigration officials tell us they get about six million applications a year and they actually have a visa lottery to award 50,000 people the right to come here as a prize.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM (voice-over): Not since the great wave through Ellis Island at the beginning of the 1900s have we seen such a flood of immigration, one million legal immigrants a year, possibly up to half- a-million more illegally.
ALEX ALEINIKOFF, MIGRATION POLICY INSTITUTE: Over the last 10 years, more immigrants have entered the United States probably than in any other 10-year period in U.S. history.
PILGRIM: Until the 1970s, most new citizens came from Europe, because quotas favored that region. But once quotas ended in 1965, a large bulk of immigration began to build from Asia.
In terms of single countries, last year, Mexico was top. Others were Vietnam, India, China, Philippines and Korea. And that kind of mix in that kind of magnitude creates a new kind of society.
ROY BECK, NUMBERSUSA.COM: The United States in the 1990s had the biggest population boom in its history. Now, we think of the baby boom in the 1950s and 1960s as being this gigantic population increase, but the '90s were far larger than even then.
PILGRIM: Forget the huddled masses yearning to breathe free. Only 12 percent of legal immigrants seek asylum as a refugee. Many come for the jobs, the American lifestyle.
EDUARDO AGUIRRE, DIRECTOR, U.S. CITIZENSHIP AND IMMIGRATION SERVICES: We had a large number of Indians and Chinese coming for programming during the technology boost. Of course, when we talk about agriculture workers, many of them are coming from south of the border, either Mexico or Central America. We're getting a lot of people from the Philippines. Many of them are coming here for health care industry issues.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Who is applying for your brother-in-law?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: His wife.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: His wife. And the wife is American citizen?
PILGRIM: Sixty-three percent of all legal immigrants last year were sponsored by a family member. Some object.
STEVE CAMAROTA, CENTER FOR IMMIGRATION STUDIES: Certainly, the United States has the most generous immigration policy in the world. So the process, if you will, of what is called family unification, or, more correctly, chain migration, is never-ending, because there is always an unlimited number of in-laws and brothers and sisters and children and parents, who can then petition to bring in their relatives.
(END VIDEOTAPE) PILGRIM: Though it's really the estimated seven to eight million illegal immigrants that cause the societal outcry, experts say 70 percent of the illegal immigrants sneak across the border and the rest just overstay their work permits or their visas -- Lou.
DOBBS: Kitty, thank you very much -- Kitty Pilgrim.
Joining me now is the director of Citizenship and Immigration Services at the Homeland Security Department, Eduardo Aguirre, he himself a naturalized citizen born in Cuba, and joins us tonight from Washington, D.C.
Good to have you with us.
AGUIRRE: Thank you, Lou. It's good to be here. Thanks for the opportunity.
DOBBS: The issue of immigration, illegal aliens, legal immigration, the population crossing our borders by any definition is explosive, is it not?
AGUIRRE: Well, indeed it is. And we are -- in our bureau, we're focusing our attention on the legal immigrants and to make sure that we bring a business approach to government, so that we can be effectively and efficiently processing these applicants and making sure that the issue of homeland security and background checks is properly, effectively done.
DOBBS: And how many people are actually naturalized U.S. citizens each year?
AGUIRRE: We're naturalizing in the neighborhood of 700,000. And my goal is to naturalize really as many as one million new citizens a year, provided that we can process them effectively, make sure that the background checks are done in an efficient manner, and make sure that we don't cut any corners, but, at the same time, be streamlining the process better.
DOBBS: Streamlining the process, your department, obviously, has been criticized for tremendous delays and inefficiencies before you took over. But now that you are in charge of that department, are you going to be able to improve on the procedures and the process for legal immigrants?
AGUIRRE: Well, that's the promise I gave the president and having given that promise to the president, I will make sure that I improve customer service, that I reduce backlogs and I do it all in a environment and increased security, recognizing that we're now fighting terrorism and we want to make sure that we let the right people in, we serve them right and we keep the wrong people out.
DOBBS: What is our national immigration policy? It no longer gives us your huddled poor. It is -- it is what? Can it be articulated in a simple sentence?
AGUIRRE: Well, in a simple sentence, I don't think so. The Immigration and Nationality Act, I'm told, is the more complex -- complex law in the land, even more complex, some will tell me, than tax code.
Our responsibility in the Bureau of Citizenship and Immigration Services is to make sure that we bring that law into focus and to make sure that our 15,000 employees are effectively and efficiently administering the benefits that come with the law.
DOBBS: Mr. Aguirre, the -- to go to a million naturalizations each year while we are looking at somewhere around 500,000 to 700,000 illegal aliens in this country, that means that approximately a third of our population growth is taking place through immigration, whether it is legal or illegal. Should that not be concerning to U.S. policymakers?
AGUIRRE: Well, of course, it is. We got to first recognize that the United States is a nation of immigrants. We all have some immigrant in our background, whether immediately coming from another country...
DOBBS: Wait, wait, Mr. Aguirre, I'm certainly not opposed to immigration. As you say, we're all immigrants. But that's sort of self-evident. But what we are not is a country -- what we were not 100 ago is a country of 300 million people with limited resources, whether we are living in a world of abundance or not. Do we have a policy on this issue?
AGUIRRE: Well, what I was going to say as a nation, immigrants, we do have a policy and we actually have a very strong set of laws that prescribe exactly how immigrants need to come or can come to this country. It is a complex set of laws, but one we're making sure that is being administered in an efficient and effective manner. We're making sure that we're leveling the playing field so that everyone across the country can feel that customer service is important to them, that backlog reduction, which is how we're going to get to this million -- hopefully, this million new citizens -- will be done in an environment where the background checks are still there and are very strong.
DOBBS: And your department issues visa, does it not?
AGUIRRE: We issue work visas. We do not issue travel visas. That is the purview of the State Department.
DOBBS: H1-B, L1-A, L1-V visas?
AGUIRRE: Those are work visas, yes. We -- we issue all work visa. all visas related for foreign employment.
DOBBS: And -- and to what degree does that policy need to be changed now that we have eight million people who are unemployed, 2.7 million jobs lost in manufacturing?
AGUIRRE: Sure.
Well, the Congress, annually, reviews a number of caps in many of these categories and they do it in conjunction with the Department of Labor and making sure that they're not allowing people to come in for jobs where there is an abundance of unemployment.
I'm -- really what I'm looking at is a willing employer to a willing worker and we are -- as I look at the laws from year in and year out, sometimes they go up, sometimes they go down. As the boom in technology has reduced itself, we find that many of the immigrants that were coming in for programming and other things in the computer industry are no longer coming, so that number is coming down.
DOBBS: Eduardo Aguirre, we thank you very much for being with us.
AGUIRRE: Thank you, Lou. I enjoyed it.
DOBBS: Appreciate it.
Well, as we just reported, an estimated 500,000 to 700,000 illegal aliens enter our country each year. We want to hear from you whether those numbers surprise you or not. In tonight's poll question -- "Did you think the number of illegal aliens, before we reported it, would be lower, higher or about as we reported it?" Cast your vote at cnn.com/lou. We'll have the results for you later in our show.
Tomorrow, in our series of special reports this week, "The Great American Giveaway," we take a look at intellectual property. One U.S. company is struggling to stay in business after a Chinese competitor copied its product and began selling it for next to nothing. The company faces a horrific choice. That's tomorrow night.
Tonight's thought is on citizenship. "It is not always the same thing to be a good man and a good citizen." That from Aristotle.
The Homeland Security Department's efforts to keep out illegal aliens, as well as drug smugglers and terrorists have led to a new problem along the border with Mexico. Some criminals trying to move people and drugs into this country are now going underground, literally.
Casey Wian reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CASEY WIAN, CNNfn CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): A quiet residential neighborhood along the U.S.-Mexico border. But something sinister lies beneath these streets, a tunnel.
MICHAEL TURNER, U.S. IMMIGRATION & CUSTOMS: The tunnel had not been completed. We have indications that they were still working on it. There doesn't seem to be a U.S. entrance to the tunnel. The Mexican authorities have arrested four individuals have been arrested in connection with their investigation.
WIAN: Investigators haven't determined if the 4-by-3 foot tunnel was intended for smuggling drugs, illegal aliens or both. U.S. agents have no local suspects, but have interviewed neighbors, including Vanessa Harrow (ph), whose house is near the tunnel's apparent path. She's worried about smugglers.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Because we don't know what, like, they could do to us or, you know...
WIAN: Agents won't discuss any changes in tactics or technology they're considering to stop the spread of smuggling tunnels. This one was quickly dismantled.
(on camera): This is all that's left of the U.S. portion of the tunnel. It may not look like much now, but U.S. immigration officials say it was fairly sophisticated. It zigzagged about 250 yards underneath the U.S.-Mexico boarder and contained both lights and ventilation.
(voice-over): Along with another tunnel discovered in Arizona this month, the Calexico tunnel makes nine that have been uncovered just since 9/11. Fifteen were found in the previous 11 years.
Homeland security officials say the growing number of smuggling tunnels indicates their efforts to crack down on illegal border crossings above ground are successful. However, because of existing underground drainage ditches, tunnels can be hard to identify and agents don't know how many more exist.
Casey Wian, CNN, Calexico, California.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: Coming up next, the number of Americans killed in Iraq grows, as do questions about the effectiveness of U.S. intelligence. Senior Pentagon correspondent, Jamie McIntyre, will report. Congresswoman Jane Harman, ranking Democrat on a House Intelligence Committee is our guest next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: The war goes on in Iraq. Terrorists today killed another American soldier in a bomb attack west of Baghdad. Troops also fought an eight-hour battle with insurgents and soldiers, and Iraqi police arrested nearly 100 terror suspects.
Senior Pentagon correspondent, Jamie McIntyre, has the story -- Jamie.
JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN SR. PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Well, Lou, in case there was any doubt that the U.S. military is still engaged in full-fledged combat operations in Iraq, as you mentioned, an eight- hour gun battle erupted after U.S. troops were ambushes in two separate locations by anti-American insurgents. One U.S. soldier was killed, three others were wounded.
The two ambushes happened along two towns in the Sunni Muslim section along the Euphrates River about 50 miles west of Baghdad. U.S. forces engaged in a fierce firefight with insurgents who were dug in behind trees and shrubs aligning a dirt road. Eventually they called in close air support from A-10s and helicopter gun ships. Meanwhile in the north, in the Tikrit area, U.S. soldiers launched two dozen raids today arresting 92 people seizing weapons and ammunition. These operations, according to army spokesman were designed to break the back of the Fedayeen, the supporters of Saddam Hussein. One raid involved the largest joint operation so far between the U.S. military and American-trained Iraqi police. About 200 Iraqi police officers took part in some of those raids this morning. And yesterday, that's Sunday, soldiers from the 4th Infantry Division captured three men suspected in the abduction and murder of two U.S. soldiers. A fourth suspect killed when they stopped this car, a red Caprice that was trying to run a U.S. military check point, they found inside M-16 rivals that were assigned to the two soldiers who have been abducted and apparently murdered a few days later, their remains were found in another part of Iraq. So the 4th Infantry believes that these three suspects in custody were connected to that abduction and murder -- Lou.
DOBBS: Jamie, thank you. Jamie McIntyre, our senior Pentagon correspondent.
Central Command today said 309 American servicemen and women have been killed in Iraq since the beginning of the war against Saddam Hussein in March. 193 killed in action. 116 in accidents. Another 1,685 have been wounded or injured. Nearly 1400 of them in combat.
The United States is trying to commit South Korea to send more troops to Iraq. South Korea has 560,000 troops in it's army and 75,000 more soldiers than the U.S. Army but so far, it has sent only 700 engineering and medical troops to Iraq. Published reports say the United States wants South Korea to send another 5,000 soldiers. That would be a small number compared with the 37,000 Americans troops who are now defending South Korea from North Korea.
As we reported, the House Intelligence Committee says President Bush ordered the invasion of Iraq on the basis of outdated, and vague information.
Joining me now is the ranking Democrat on the House Intelligence Committee, Congresswoman Jane Harman. Good to have you with us.
REP. JANE HARMAN (D-CA), RANKING DEMOCRAT, INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEE: Nice to be on the show.
DOBBS: The idea that the United States is relying on such vague and outdated information troubles you.
What do you expect to happen, Congresswoman?
HARMAN: Well, our point in taking this detailed view of -- review of the prewar intelligence is to help us do better. We can talk at length about what wasn't right about this intelligence, but you just had a report about ongoing casualties in Iraq. Obviously, we need first-rate intelligence on the ground in Iraq to prevent as much as possible these ambushes against our forces. It's a force protection issue. It's also relevant to making our best possible decisions Iran and North Korea. If we don't have accurate and timely and unbiased intelligence we don't have good tools to win 21st century wars. So, this preliminary review which was in a letter to the director of Central Intelligence signed by Chairman Porter Goss and me, is intended to be constructive criticism and help us do better.
DOBBS: Is it your sense, because you've sat on the committee throughout many of these events, that that intelligence, as best you can determine, is improving or not?
HARMAN: I think it is improving. I think, first of all, in Iraq, now that the military phase of the war is partially over, I think that would be more accurate. We have the ability to have people on the ground who know this business and can help us get it right. What was sad pre-2003, the end of the military action, is that we lost our ground troops. Once the inspectors were dismissed from Iraq in 1998, we didn't have people on the ground who were in the buildings, who could actually tell us, yes, this scientist is making chemical weapons or biological agents and there is a specific plan to harm Americans or American interests. What we had was circumstantial, fragmentary snippets of information gleaned from people outside the country. And now that we're still looking at the weapons of mass destruction, a lot of that information was inaccurate.
DOBBS: And the accuracy of information now, as you talked about for security in Iraq, the Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, today wrote an op-ed column in the "Wall Street Journal" basicly saying no further troops are required. Simply Iraqi troops if you will and police are required. Does the intelligence that has been shared with square up with what the defense secretary asserted today?
HARMAN: Well, I can't reveal any classified intelligence. What I can do and I am doing is try to make sure the process is as good as it can be. The sources have to be credible. We have to have numerous sources. They have to be vetted. And then the product we prepare, the analysis that we do based on those sources has to stay pretty clearly whether our sources were they're good or not good, descending views have to be stated and policymakers, like Secretary Rumsfeld, have to -- I believe, have to be clear with us, the American public, about how strong is the information backing up his claims. He's a smart guy. I assume that his position is one that he feels is based on the facts. But I want to feel for the future, not just that whatever he says is accurate, but that what our vice president says and what our national security adviser says is accurate. And that any intelligence product we have states clearly and with all of the right (UNINTELLIGIBLE) and qualifiers exactly, precisely what the facts support.
DOBBS: Congresswoman Jane Harman who said -- and it appears to me without any argument correctly -- that terrorists will not look to party affiliation before blowing someone up. Congresswoman, thanks for being with us.
Tonight's quote is from a Bush administration's official "Wall Street Journal" editorial I just mentioned on rebuilding Iraq. We quote, "We should resist the urge to do for the Iraqis what would be better done by the Iraqis. We can help but only if we balance the size of our presence to meet the military challenge, while putting the increasing responsibility in Iraqi hands. That Defense Secretary Rumsfeld. It does make someone wonder why the secretary feels that way they would want a $20 billion loan rather than a $20 billion American gift.
Coming up next, oil and water don't mix but oil and politics are certainly another matter. When it comes to relations between Russia and the United States, oil is playing an important role. Big Tucker will give us the report. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Oil is fueling new economic cooperation, if not political cooperation, between Russia and the United States. In the first half of this year, trade between the two countries rose by a third. More political relationships have been troubled by events in North Korea and Iran, business interests have been undeterred. Bill Tucker, has a report -- Bill.
BILL TUCKER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, not surprisingly most of the business that we're seeing growing between the United States and Russia is energy related.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
TUCKER (voice-over): The United States wants to decrease its dependence on oil from OPEC. Russia wants to help but doubling its oil exports to America over the next five years to 10 percent of all U.S. imported oil. That would be enough to put it on par with Venezuela. While this weekend's summit between President Bush and President Putin did not produce news of political break through on cooperation in Iraq between the two countries, business was clearly on the table.
PRES. VLADIMIR PUTIN, RUSSIA (through translator): Significant attention during the negotiation was paid to Russian-American cooperation in trade and economics sphere.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We'll continue to work together to expand cooperation in the energy sector.
TUCKER: Signs of that cooperation are already evident. Lukoil, Russia's second largest oil company, rebranding its 1,300 Getty gasoline stations with its Lukoil name. Lukoil has owned Getty for two years now. Lukoil clearly sees itself in the Russian vanguard.
VADIM GLUZMAN, PRESIDENT, LUKOIL AMERICA: It would set a good example for not just American companies investing in Russia, but vice versa, Russian companies investing in the United States, and this example is a good example. So, you know, I just like to see that more Russian companies will follow us and do business in the United States.
TUCKER: The U.S. Commerce Department apparently agrees. Last week, it led a group of 13 small to large companies to St. Petersburg, for a conference on energy business development.
PETER BEUTEL, CAMERON HANOVER: What we saw on Friday with the opening of a Lukoil retail station is the beginning of a long, warm relationship between the two countries, where we exchange American technology for Russian oil.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
TUCKER: So while the politicians continue to look for a way to forge cooperations, business leaders are quietly pushing ahead with business, Lou.
DOBBS: Bill, thank you. Bill Tucker.
Coming up next, the results of tonight's poll. Christine Romans will have the market for us. And exporting America, your thoughts on American jobs being sent overseas. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: On Wall Street, stocks jumped on the day before the end of the quarter. The Dow Jones Industrials up 67 points, the Nasdaq rose 32.5, the S&P up almost 10. Christine Romans with the market now -- Christine.
CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN FINANCIAL NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Lou, there was a $10 billion insurance merger, there was approval of a big aluminum merger, and throw in there strong consumer spending and stocks moved higher today. And so with the quarter almost in the books, here is how it looks. The Dow up 12 percent, the S&P up two quarters in a row now, for the first time since 2000, techs, small caps, semiconductors all on fire; also Japanese stocks and gold stocks performing quite well in the quarter.
Now, with that in mind, Lou, look at the returns of the four biggest stock mutual funds. This courtesy of Morningstar. Vanguard 500 had plenty of tech exposure, but energy and pharmaceuticals hurt. Fidelity Magellan's manager was pessimistic about tech and was underweight in what turned out to be one of the best sectors. American Funds Investment Company of America has the best three months return of the four biggest funds, and American Funds Washington Mutual is barely higher. It focuses on dividend stocks, and the energy, drug and telecom stocks at the top of this fund's holdings have been weak this year.
Now, Lou, Kodak fell for the fifth day in a row. 3M has three for one split tonight, and after the bell Sun Microsystems, you want to go watch all of those tomorrow.
DOBBS: And John Reed is talking?
ROMANS: He is. He's talking to reporters.
DOBBS: Calling for the resignation of the board of directors, saying we need new management, it's time to get moving?
ROMANS: Let me say, he's not talking as much as he's listening. He says he's in listening mode, he said that he has told the management of the New York Stock Exchange and the board members of the New York Stock Exchange that he needs them. He doesn't need a mass exodus. He needs everyone together to help figure out what to do next for (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
DOBBS: What do investors need? Aren't these the same people who gave Dick Grasso $140 million, plus 48 in severance, plus another...
ROMANS: This is true.
DOBBS: I'm a little confused.
ROMANS: ... and Mr. Reed is going to be talking with the members of the New York Stock Exchange in a couple of days, and they have those same questions than do you.
DOBBS: New sheriff in town.
ROMANS: New sheriff in town.
DOBBS: All right. Christine Romans.
Now, the results of tonight's poll about the roughly half a million illegal aliens that enter our country each year. Did you think the number of illegal aliens would be higher, lower or about as we reported it? Sixty-two percent of you said you thought they would be higher; 22 percent lower; 17 percent as reported.
Let's take a look at some of your thoughts. Barry Morterud of Frisco, Texas wrote: "Your show has finally brought to light the despicable practice of giving away American jobs. I, like many others, have had to retrain my offshore replacement. The reason I was given by my company was because of cost, not a deficit in skills as many politicians would have people believe."
Galo Deneira of Lake Worth, Florida: "Watching last week's show, I was surprised to hear how positive Congressman Smith was about jobs. I am an unemployed software network engineer looking for a future with no hope in sight. Where are the jobs he's talking about?"
And President Bush today signed a new law allowing the FTC to enforce the do not call list. Linda of Duncanville, Texas: "We want a do-not-export-our-jobs list to sign. We could easily get 50 million to sign up."
We love hearing from you. E-mail us at loudobbs@cnn.com. That's our show for tonight. Thanks for being with us. Tomorrow, in our special reports, "The Great American Giveaway," we look at one company's tough decision. Its technology stolen overseas; the company must either ship production and jobs overseas, or shut down altogether. For all of us here, good night from New York. "ANDERSON COOPER 360" is next.
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Exploding in America>
Aired September 29, 2003 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT for Monday, September 29. Here now, Lou Dobbs.
LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening.
Tonight, the White House is at the center of political storm. The Justice Department has launched an inquiry into who gave a nationally syndicated columnist the name of a CIA agent. That agent is Valerie Plame. She is married to former Ambassador Joe Wilson. The CIA dispatched Wilson to Niger to investigate claims that Iraq was trying to buy uranium in Africa. The columnist is our CNN colleague Robert Novak, who, on July 14, reported Wilson's wife was a CIA operative, that report in his nationally syndicated newspaper column.
The White House said it is cooperating with the Department of Justice investigation.
Senior White House correspondent John King has the report -- John.
JOHN KING, CNN SR. WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Lou, it was the CIA that requested that the Justice Department launch an investigation of how this was leaked.
It is legal to leak the information, the name, of an undercover CIA operative. The White House today says it has not received any contact from the Justice Department, no requests to interview White House aides, no requests for documents, like phone logs or e-mail records and the type. The White House today saying it believes, though, the Justice Department can handle the investigation.
The press secretary here at the White House, Scott McClellan, on a day Mr. Bush himself refused to answer shouted questions about all of this, Scott McClellan saying he rejects the Democrats' calls for a special counsel, an independent counsel, or special prosecutor. He also says there's no need to have an internal White House investigation.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SCOTT MCCLELLAN, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: The president has been -- I spoke for him earlier today. The president believes leaking classified information is a very serious matter and it should be pursued to the fullest extent by the appropriate agency. And the appropriate agency is the Department of Justice.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: Now, at one point, Ambassador Wilson had pointed the finger to Karl Rove, the president's senior political adviser, saying he believed Rove was responsible for the leak. Ambassador Wilson backing away from that today, saying he's not sure who leaked the information.
And we're told that Rove has emphatically denied any involvement at all directly to Scott McClellan, the press secretary, and other senior officials here. But, today, more evidence that there are not only legal questions for the administration to answer, but a growing political controversy as well. Almost all of the Democratic candidates for president have demanded an independent investigation by a special counsel.
Those on Capitol Hill, Democrats on Capitol Hill, also doing so, including the Senate Democratic leader, Tom Daschle, who tonight has sent the president a letter saying Attorney General Ashcroft has known about this allegation for more than two months, still has not done anything about it. In the view of the Democrats, Lou, that is proof that the attorney general doesn't take it seriously, the White House doesn't take it seriously. They will continue to demand a special prosecutor -- Lou.
DOBBS: And that demand must satisfied, in point of fact, by the attorney general, correct, John?
KING: Correct. It is the attorney general's call.
The old law of independent counsels that got us Ken Starr and others during the Clinton administration, that law has expired. It is now up to the attorney general to name a presidential prosecutor or independent counsel. But the president could, of course, ask him to do so. But it's the attorney general's call.
DOBBS: Obviously, at this point, it is a highly partisan, charged issue. But the White House itself, John, in responding to these charges, said -- quote -- "There is nothing to suggest any White House involvement in the leak." That doesn't sound, at least to me, John, like a categorical denial. Is that what the White House intended?
KING: Well, the White House is saying it has no information that anyone inside these gates leaked the information and that it is not the practice of this White House, that the president would not tolerate it.
But as Scott McClellan put it earlier today, he does not know who anonymous is. He did go to Karl Rove, because Karl Rove had been specifically blamed by Ambassador Wilson. Scott McClellan said he went to ask Karl Rove and that Karl Rove said he had nothing to do with this. But as to whether it could anyone else inside the White House, they continue to say they don't think so. But they say they don't know, of course, because the sources were not named in the media accounts.
DOBBS: John, thank you very much -- John King, senior White House correspondent.
Robert Novak tonight said no one in the administration called him to leak the information about Valerie Plame. Novak said the information came from conversations he had with two senior administration officials.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "CROSSFIRE")
ROBERT NOVAK, CO-HOST: As a professional journalist with 46 years experience in Washington, I do not reveal confidential sources. When I called the CIA in July, they confirmed Mrs. Wilson's involvement in a mission for her husband on a secondary basis, who is -- he is a former Clinton administration official. They asked me not to use her name, but never indicated it would endanger her or anybody else.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: Robert Novak.
Now, the identity of the CIA agent was released to the public in Novak's syndicated newspaper column on July 14. So far, it's unclear whether that leak has damaged her ability to do her job.
Our national security correspondent, David Ensor, has the report.
David, how much do we know about Valerie Plame and her past?
DAVID ENSOR, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Well, we don't know much officially.
It is my understanding that she is an employee of the operations side of the CIA, that she's had a long and I think distinguished career, as far as I can tell, as someone who's been out in the field collecting intelligence. So for her name to come out would be very damaging, in the sense it would probably prevent her from doing that in the future.
It would also be damaging, in the sense that anybody that she set up as a source of information, who perhaps doesn't realize that they are providing information to the U.S. government and not to some other entity, now knows that this person with that name is a CIA officer. So it could close some intelligence sources. It could shut down some methods that have been used successfully in the past. So it's a serious matter. And that's why it's a felony.
DOBBS: And, David, as you know, there's been at least one report suggesting that it was known that Valerie Plame worked for the CIA. Do we know how extensive that knowledge was?
ENSOR: How extensive where? I'm not quite sure what you mean.
DOBBS: A report in "The National Review," as I'm sure you're aware, suggesting that there was every indication that some people knew that she worked for the CIA. ENSOR: Well, there certainly were some people who knew the family, who knew of where she worked. It was perhaps not a top-secret matter. But, technically, there's a law against revealing in public in the media, for example, the identity of a covert operator for the CIA. And that is what apparently occurred in this case.
DOBBS: And, David, it's very early, of course, but has there been, as best we can determine, any impact on national security?
ENSOR: We really can't tell at this point. That's going to be one of the things that will have to be looked into by the Justice Department, presumably getting some help from the Central Intelligence Agency on that one.
DOBBS: David, thank you very much -- David Ensor, our national security correspondent reporting from Washington.
Leading Democrats today called for an independent inquiry into who leaked the CIA agent's name.
One Democratic Senator, Charles Schumer of New York, said the Justice Department should appoint an independent counsel.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. CHARLES SCHUMER (D), NEW YORK: I heard that the White House press person today said that, well, this is just another leak and we deal with leaks all the time.
That statement is outrageous. When was the last time that a covert agent's name was leaked, jeopardizing that agent's life, the life of that agent's network of informants, and the security of this country? This is not just an ordinary leak.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: And members of Congress are also criticizing the intelligence used by the White House to justify the war against Saddam Hussein. The leadership of the House Intelligence Committee says the intelligence was vague and outdated. And later in the show tonight, I'll be joined by one of the lawmakers making those charges. Congresswoman Jane Harman, ranking Democrat on the House Intelligence Committee, is our guest.
My next guest served as head of Central Intelligence from 1993 through 1995. He says there should be an investigation into the leak of the CIA agent's name, and the person or persons responsible should be punished.
James Woolsey joins us from Washington.
JAMES WOOLSEY, FORMER CIA DIRECTOR: Good to be with you.
DOBBS: Good to have you here.
The idea that this leak originated in the White House, or at least amongst senior Bush administration officials, is it appropriate to leave this to the Justice Department? Or, in your judgment, Jim, should this White House get to the bottom of it as quickly as possible?
WOOLSEY: Well, I don't think you can have an independent counsel for every time there's a leak, but this is a serious leak. And there are allegations that some senior official, at least, was involved. It seems to me, we ought to let the Justice Department do its job here for a while and see how it goes.
But I must say, this is not a small matter. CIA officers in the clandestine service meet with all sorts of people in the course of their careers. And, as David Ensor's fine report just pointed out, you can endanger intelligence and people's lives by revealing the identities of CIA case officers. So it's a serious matter.
DOBBS: Do you know Valerie Plame?
WOOLSEY: No.
DOBBS: Do you have any reason to think that her name was at least known in Washington circles as a CIA employee?
WOOLSEY: I have no idea. I had never heard of her before this came out.
DOBBS: And the idea that Robert Novak, our colleague here on CNN, reported her name in his column on July 14, his newspaper column, your assessment, from your perspective, as the former head of CIA, a public servant, that any journalist would report that information?
WOOLSEY: Well, I wish it hadn't happened.
But I think the objective in these cases is not to blame the journalists, but rather the leakers. I had occasion on more than once when I was director of Central Intelligence to go to major media news outlets and explain that a story that they were about to run, something they were checking with us, if it included a particular fact or two could endanger someone's life. And I was successful on several occasions -- well, each time I asked -- in having the relevant material withheld.
It didn't undercut the basic story. But it does seem to me, it's up to someone in the government to explain to Bob Novak or anybody else why a particular fact shouldn't be revealed and could be quite dangerous.
DOBBS: And so you would not blame Robert Novak for having reported that...
WOOLSEY: No.
DOBBS: ... the agent's name?
Let's turn to another matter of broader intelligence issues. And that is what appears to be a continuing failure to understand what is happening both in Iraq and the Middle East. Is it your judgment that more has to be done here to improve U.S. intelligence, whether it be from State, from the military side, or the CIA?
WOOLSEY: Absolutely.
I think that Porter Goss, the chairman of the House committee, had a very good point when he pointed out, in this recent report, that we didn't have enough collection by individuals on the ground. There are some things that really can only be done by spies, essentially. You can't find out a lot about terrorist groups and some other things by the satellites.
And it may well be that Congresswoman Harman -- and these are both very distinguished public servants -- also has a point that some of the analysis was not well done. But, in a lot of cases where you're not getting good intelligence, you want to look to collection and to the sources. And here, we probably needed a lot more people on the ground than we had.
DOBBS: Let me ask the question this way. This is -- obviously, we're going into the presidential election of next year. The campaigns are heating up. It's a highly partisan, charged issue. But, at the same time, are we in danger of letting that mask the serious, substantive issues here, the risk to the nation because of intelligence that is not at the level that anyone would want it to be?
WOOLSEY: This can get very tangled up. We're going into what may be a very hot presidential campaign in which intelligence and foreign intelligence may play a central role in a way that it hasn't, perhaps ever.
I think the heart of the matter is that every American ought to be on the side of more effective intelligence against terrorist groups and groups like the Baathists in Iraq. And that requires resources, but it also requires ingenuity. And it requires being willing to cast aside some of the sort of politically correct constraints of the past, such as the regulations that George Tenet recently got rid of that dated from the mid-'90s that deterred CIA case officers from recruiting spies if those spies might have some violence in their past.
Well, all terrorists have some kind of violence, probably, in their past. So there were some things that we've done to tie ourselves in knots that are now I think being fixed. But it's going to take a bit of time before we get back into a world in which we have really effective intelligence, as I think we did in the human intelligence realm for some time during the Cold War.
Oleg Kalugin, former head of the KGB's counterintelligence side against the United States, and I once compared notes on this. I asked him how well the CIA did vs. the KGB in the Cold War. He said, "You outdid us about 5-1." And I think that's not a bad number.
DOBBS: And let's hope the ratio continues against all adversaries.
WOOLSEY: Absolutely.
DOBBS: James Woolsey, thank you very much for being with us.
And, as I said, Congresswoman Jane Harman will be joining us, she, the ranking Democrat on the House Intelligence Committee, joining us later in the show.
Coming up next: One of the most notorious figures of the corporate crime wave has his first day in court. Peter Viles will report.
Arnold Schwarzenegger is back on top in the latest polls, only eight days left until the recall election. Our senior political correspondent, Candy Crowley, will report.
And tonight, we begin our weeklong series of special reports on what this nation gives away, including our priceless citizenship. Kitty Pilgrim reports on the "Great American Giveaway."
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Well, as you saw, more than 22 months since Enron filed for bankruptcy, the Enron task force has failed to charge former chairman and CEO Ken Lay. Ken Lay has rejected the Securities and Exchange Commission's request for information.
And, today, the SEC filed a subpoena enforcement action to force Ken Lay to provide that requested information. The SEC originally requested documents back in January of 2002. That's right, more than a year and a half ago. And, certainly, no one can accuse the SEC of being less than patient with Mr. Lay. Lay is citing his Fifth Amendment rights against self-incrimination in not turning over the requested information.
In New York today, two major corporate criminal trials began. Dennis Kozlowski, the former CEO of Tyco, today became the first CEO of a major corporation to face a jury. Kozlowski was charged with looting the company of more than half-a-billion dollars. In a separate case, former investment banker Frank Quattrone faced jury selection.
Peter Viles has the report for us -- Peter, quite a day.
PETER VILES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, it is quite a day.
The government's favorite charge in these cases to date has been obstruction of justice. Essentially, you lied to us. And this is what makes the Kozlowski trial different. This is the first major trial in which the government will argue not just that you lied to us, but you stole from your shareholders.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
VILES (voice-over): A makeover for Dennis Kozlowski. He lost weight, shaved his head for his historic trial. He's accused of looting his old company, Tyco International, and spending the money spectacularly bad taste. Somewhere inside his Manhattan apartments was allegedly a $6,000 shower curtain. He allegedly spent $2 million on a birthday for his wife at which Vodka spouted from the private parts of an ice sculpture of Michelangelo's "David."
And if he's convicted, it will be a dark day, indeed, for the catering industry. Kozlowski threw yet another big party this just weekend, a lavish wedding for his daughter on Nantucket.
JACOB ZAMANSKY, SHAREHOLDER RIGHTS ATTORNEY: This is the first case to judge the imperial CEO, a CEO who put his own interests head of those of his company and the employees. And it's going to symbolize the greed that took place in the 1990s. And this could set the tone for other cases.
VILES: But, as jury selection began, Judge Michael Obus warned the jury not to think about sending a message -- quote -- "It is not a case of Enron or WorldCom or any other company you may have heard about. What you need to do is listen."
IRA SORKIN, CARTER, LEDYARD & MILBURN: I think, over a four- month trial, the jury will not see themselves as the avenging angels for alleged corporate greed and I think will focus on the evidence, focus on the judge's instructions, and come up with a verdict.
VILES: Two blocks away, in federal court, former investment banker Frank Quattrone showed up for jury selection. Quattrone stands accused of obstruction of justice during an investigation of the IPO market.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
VILES: Quattrone is the first big investment banker to stand trial, Kozlowski, of course, the first prominent CEO. You may remember, Kozlowski faces a separate set of charges, tax evasion charges, alleging he evaded $1 million dollar in sales taxes on a handful of expensive paintings, including a Renoir and Monet. So not bad taste in art, anyway, Lou.
DOBBS: The charges not directly related to his interest in shareholder value?
VILES: No. It's a separate case that would come after.
DOBBS: And Frank Quattrone, he got a bad draw on the judge, right?
VILES: He certainly did. The judge in this case is known to be very tough, Richard Owen, 81 years old.
Recently, he heard an insider trading case. It was a cooperating witness who pled guilty. The government said, you don't have to send this person to jail. The judge said, oh, yes and I do, and sent this person to jail for three months, even though the prosecution didn't ask for it.
DOBBS: Well, some judges don't require a request. (LAUGHTER)
DOBBS: All right, Peter Viles, thank you.
Turning now to what could soon become another type of corporate crime, telemarketing, the Federal Communications Commission today said it will enforce the country's do-not-call list beginning the day after tomorrow. The Federal Trade Commission, which operates the list, has been blocked from enforcing it by two federal judges.
However, President Bush today signed a law into effect that would give the FTC the authority to enforce that list. Americans have registered more than 50 million telephone numbers on the do-not-call list. Telemarketers who fail to obey it will face fines.
In California, the recall election is a week from tomorrow. And a new poll suggests it won't be close. The CNN/"USA Today"/Gallup poll shows Arnold Schwarzenegger has a commanding lead over his opponents in the race for California governor. It also shows Governor Gray Davis has a lot of work to do if he even thinks about keeping his job.
Candy Crowley reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CANDY CROWLEY, CNN SR. POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Sixty-three percent of Californians likely to vote want to dump him. What's a governor to do?
First, boil it down to a simple question -- Gray Davis or Arnold Schwarzenegger?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He ducks tough questions. Didn't vote in 13 of the last 21 elections, and now he refuses to debate the governor he's trying to replace. Vote no on the recall.
CROWLEY: Message -- you really want a newbie running California? And a Republican newbie at that.
The lieutenant governor, Cruz Bustamante, sinking in the polls, heavily Democratic California can no longer comfort itself that they can throw out Davis and put another Democrat in.
So the Davis campaign will spend its final full week before the election, suggesting to its less than through Democratic base that this is not about car taxes red ink spending or even the 34 candidates who want to be governor. This is about Arnold Schwarzenegger and whether Democrats, regardless of how they feel about Davis, really want to give the governorship to a Republican.
As unique and unprecedented, etcetera, etcetera, as this recall race may be, Davis' survival is Politics 101. He needs tried and true Democrats in the voting booth a week from tomorrow.
Today, Governor Bill Richardson, the Democrats' most visible Latino, is beating the hustings with Davis.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CROWLEY: Tomorrow, it will be Terry McAuliffe, the DNC chairman. Think labor vote, Lou. And the Davis campaign is working very hard to try to get former President Bill Clinton to make a return appearance -- Lou.
DOBBS: Bill Clinton campaigning wall-to-wall for the next week for Governor Davis or just sort of a tepid appearance?
CROWLEY: Probably not wall-to-wall.
But I tell you, he was out here before. And he, as you know, is very popular among the Democratic base, which, at this point, is where Davis is going. They went to an African-American church here in Los Angeles. And so Clinton is a very good get-out-the-grassroots person. It won't be wall-to-wall. He was out here for I think two events. But they'd dearly love to have him come back maybe this weekend on the eve of the vote.
DOBBS: The former president. How about the former vice president, Senator Clinton?
CROWLEY: So far, while she's made one phone appearance at a rally, we do not expect to see former -- to see current Senator Hillary Clinton out here. I think the Davis campaign would have liked that. She's pretty much stayed clear.
DOBBS: Candy, thank you very much -- Candy Crowley reporting.
Coming up next tonight in our series of special reports on the "Great American Giveaway," American citizen. Kitty Pilgrim will report. And Eduardo Aguirre of the Department of Homeland Security joins us.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Tonight, we begin a series of special reports on what the United States gives away to the rest of the world. Tonight, we focus on citizenship.
More than 33 million people live in the United States who are immigrants. One million of those entered the country legally last year. An estimated 500,000 to 700,000 illegal aliens also entered the country last year.
Kitty Pilgrim joins us now with the story -- Kitty.
KITTY PILGRIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, the numbers are absolutely huge.
Immigration officials tell us they get about six million applications a year and they actually have a visa lottery to award 50,000 people the right to come here as a prize.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM (voice-over): Not since the great wave through Ellis Island at the beginning of the 1900s have we seen such a flood of immigration, one million legal immigrants a year, possibly up to half- a-million more illegally.
ALEX ALEINIKOFF, MIGRATION POLICY INSTITUTE: Over the last 10 years, more immigrants have entered the United States probably than in any other 10-year period in U.S. history.
PILGRIM: Until the 1970s, most new citizens came from Europe, because quotas favored that region. But once quotas ended in 1965, a large bulk of immigration began to build from Asia.
In terms of single countries, last year, Mexico was top. Others were Vietnam, India, China, Philippines and Korea. And that kind of mix in that kind of magnitude creates a new kind of society.
ROY BECK, NUMBERSUSA.COM: The United States in the 1990s had the biggest population boom in its history. Now, we think of the baby boom in the 1950s and 1960s as being this gigantic population increase, but the '90s were far larger than even then.
PILGRIM: Forget the huddled masses yearning to breathe free. Only 12 percent of legal immigrants seek asylum as a refugee. Many come for the jobs, the American lifestyle.
EDUARDO AGUIRRE, DIRECTOR, U.S. CITIZENSHIP AND IMMIGRATION SERVICES: We had a large number of Indians and Chinese coming for programming during the technology boost. Of course, when we talk about agriculture workers, many of them are coming from south of the border, either Mexico or Central America. We're getting a lot of people from the Philippines. Many of them are coming here for health care industry issues.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Who is applying for your brother-in-law?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: His wife.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: His wife. And the wife is American citizen?
PILGRIM: Sixty-three percent of all legal immigrants last year were sponsored by a family member. Some object.
STEVE CAMAROTA, CENTER FOR IMMIGRATION STUDIES: Certainly, the United States has the most generous immigration policy in the world. So the process, if you will, of what is called family unification, or, more correctly, chain migration, is never-ending, because there is always an unlimited number of in-laws and brothers and sisters and children and parents, who can then petition to bring in their relatives.
(END VIDEOTAPE) PILGRIM: Though it's really the estimated seven to eight million illegal immigrants that cause the societal outcry, experts say 70 percent of the illegal immigrants sneak across the border and the rest just overstay their work permits or their visas -- Lou.
DOBBS: Kitty, thank you very much -- Kitty Pilgrim.
Joining me now is the director of Citizenship and Immigration Services at the Homeland Security Department, Eduardo Aguirre, he himself a naturalized citizen born in Cuba, and joins us tonight from Washington, D.C.
Good to have you with us.
AGUIRRE: Thank you, Lou. It's good to be here. Thanks for the opportunity.
DOBBS: The issue of immigration, illegal aliens, legal immigration, the population crossing our borders by any definition is explosive, is it not?
AGUIRRE: Well, indeed it is. And we are -- in our bureau, we're focusing our attention on the legal immigrants and to make sure that we bring a business approach to government, so that we can be effectively and efficiently processing these applicants and making sure that the issue of homeland security and background checks is properly, effectively done.
DOBBS: And how many people are actually naturalized U.S. citizens each year?
AGUIRRE: We're naturalizing in the neighborhood of 700,000. And my goal is to naturalize really as many as one million new citizens a year, provided that we can process them effectively, make sure that the background checks are done in an efficient manner, and make sure that we don't cut any corners, but, at the same time, be streamlining the process better.
DOBBS: Streamlining the process, your department, obviously, has been criticized for tremendous delays and inefficiencies before you took over. But now that you are in charge of that department, are you going to be able to improve on the procedures and the process for legal immigrants?
AGUIRRE: Well, that's the promise I gave the president and having given that promise to the president, I will make sure that I improve customer service, that I reduce backlogs and I do it all in a environment and increased security, recognizing that we're now fighting terrorism and we want to make sure that we let the right people in, we serve them right and we keep the wrong people out.
DOBBS: What is our national immigration policy? It no longer gives us your huddled poor. It is -- it is what? Can it be articulated in a simple sentence?
AGUIRRE: Well, in a simple sentence, I don't think so. The Immigration and Nationality Act, I'm told, is the more complex -- complex law in the land, even more complex, some will tell me, than tax code.
Our responsibility in the Bureau of Citizenship and Immigration Services is to make sure that we bring that law into focus and to make sure that our 15,000 employees are effectively and efficiently administering the benefits that come with the law.
DOBBS: Mr. Aguirre, the -- to go to a million naturalizations each year while we are looking at somewhere around 500,000 to 700,000 illegal aliens in this country, that means that approximately a third of our population growth is taking place through immigration, whether it is legal or illegal. Should that not be concerning to U.S. policymakers?
AGUIRRE: Well, of course, it is. We got to first recognize that the United States is a nation of immigrants. We all have some immigrant in our background, whether immediately coming from another country...
DOBBS: Wait, wait, Mr. Aguirre, I'm certainly not opposed to immigration. As you say, we're all immigrants. But that's sort of self-evident. But what we are not is a country -- what we were not 100 ago is a country of 300 million people with limited resources, whether we are living in a world of abundance or not. Do we have a policy on this issue?
AGUIRRE: Well, what I was going to say as a nation, immigrants, we do have a policy and we actually have a very strong set of laws that prescribe exactly how immigrants need to come or can come to this country. It is a complex set of laws, but one we're making sure that is being administered in an efficient and effective manner. We're making sure that we're leveling the playing field so that everyone across the country can feel that customer service is important to them, that backlog reduction, which is how we're going to get to this million -- hopefully, this million new citizens -- will be done in an environment where the background checks are still there and are very strong.
DOBBS: And your department issues visa, does it not?
AGUIRRE: We issue work visas. We do not issue travel visas. That is the purview of the State Department.
DOBBS: H1-B, L1-A, L1-V visas?
AGUIRRE: Those are work visas, yes. We -- we issue all work visa. all visas related for foreign employment.
DOBBS: And -- and to what degree does that policy need to be changed now that we have eight million people who are unemployed, 2.7 million jobs lost in manufacturing?
AGUIRRE: Sure.
Well, the Congress, annually, reviews a number of caps in many of these categories and they do it in conjunction with the Department of Labor and making sure that they're not allowing people to come in for jobs where there is an abundance of unemployment.
I'm -- really what I'm looking at is a willing employer to a willing worker and we are -- as I look at the laws from year in and year out, sometimes they go up, sometimes they go down. As the boom in technology has reduced itself, we find that many of the immigrants that were coming in for programming and other things in the computer industry are no longer coming, so that number is coming down.
DOBBS: Eduardo Aguirre, we thank you very much for being with us.
AGUIRRE: Thank you, Lou. I enjoyed it.
DOBBS: Appreciate it.
Well, as we just reported, an estimated 500,000 to 700,000 illegal aliens enter our country each year. We want to hear from you whether those numbers surprise you or not. In tonight's poll question -- "Did you think the number of illegal aliens, before we reported it, would be lower, higher or about as we reported it?" Cast your vote at cnn.com/lou. We'll have the results for you later in our show.
Tomorrow, in our series of special reports this week, "The Great American Giveaway," we take a look at intellectual property. One U.S. company is struggling to stay in business after a Chinese competitor copied its product and began selling it for next to nothing. The company faces a horrific choice. That's tomorrow night.
Tonight's thought is on citizenship. "It is not always the same thing to be a good man and a good citizen." That from Aristotle.
The Homeland Security Department's efforts to keep out illegal aliens, as well as drug smugglers and terrorists have led to a new problem along the border with Mexico. Some criminals trying to move people and drugs into this country are now going underground, literally.
Casey Wian reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CASEY WIAN, CNNfn CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): A quiet residential neighborhood along the U.S.-Mexico border. But something sinister lies beneath these streets, a tunnel.
MICHAEL TURNER, U.S. IMMIGRATION & CUSTOMS: The tunnel had not been completed. We have indications that they were still working on it. There doesn't seem to be a U.S. entrance to the tunnel. The Mexican authorities have arrested four individuals have been arrested in connection with their investigation.
WIAN: Investigators haven't determined if the 4-by-3 foot tunnel was intended for smuggling drugs, illegal aliens or both. U.S. agents have no local suspects, but have interviewed neighbors, including Vanessa Harrow (ph), whose house is near the tunnel's apparent path. She's worried about smugglers.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Because we don't know what, like, they could do to us or, you know...
WIAN: Agents won't discuss any changes in tactics or technology they're considering to stop the spread of smuggling tunnels. This one was quickly dismantled.
(on camera): This is all that's left of the U.S. portion of the tunnel. It may not look like much now, but U.S. immigration officials say it was fairly sophisticated. It zigzagged about 250 yards underneath the U.S.-Mexico boarder and contained both lights and ventilation.
(voice-over): Along with another tunnel discovered in Arizona this month, the Calexico tunnel makes nine that have been uncovered just since 9/11. Fifteen were found in the previous 11 years.
Homeland security officials say the growing number of smuggling tunnels indicates their efforts to crack down on illegal border crossings above ground are successful. However, because of existing underground drainage ditches, tunnels can be hard to identify and agents don't know how many more exist.
Casey Wian, CNN, Calexico, California.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: Coming up next, the number of Americans killed in Iraq grows, as do questions about the effectiveness of U.S. intelligence. Senior Pentagon correspondent, Jamie McIntyre, will report. Congresswoman Jane Harman, ranking Democrat on a House Intelligence Committee is our guest next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: The war goes on in Iraq. Terrorists today killed another American soldier in a bomb attack west of Baghdad. Troops also fought an eight-hour battle with insurgents and soldiers, and Iraqi police arrested nearly 100 terror suspects.
Senior Pentagon correspondent, Jamie McIntyre, has the story -- Jamie.
JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN SR. PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Well, Lou, in case there was any doubt that the U.S. military is still engaged in full-fledged combat operations in Iraq, as you mentioned, an eight- hour gun battle erupted after U.S. troops were ambushes in two separate locations by anti-American insurgents. One U.S. soldier was killed, three others were wounded.
The two ambushes happened along two towns in the Sunni Muslim section along the Euphrates River about 50 miles west of Baghdad. U.S. forces engaged in a fierce firefight with insurgents who were dug in behind trees and shrubs aligning a dirt road. Eventually they called in close air support from A-10s and helicopter gun ships. Meanwhile in the north, in the Tikrit area, U.S. soldiers launched two dozen raids today arresting 92 people seizing weapons and ammunition. These operations, according to army spokesman were designed to break the back of the Fedayeen, the supporters of Saddam Hussein. One raid involved the largest joint operation so far between the U.S. military and American-trained Iraqi police. About 200 Iraqi police officers took part in some of those raids this morning. And yesterday, that's Sunday, soldiers from the 4th Infantry Division captured three men suspected in the abduction and murder of two U.S. soldiers. A fourth suspect killed when they stopped this car, a red Caprice that was trying to run a U.S. military check point, they found inside M-16 rivals that were assigned to the two soldiers who have been abducted and apparently murdered a few days later, their remains were found in another part of Iraq. So the 4th Infantry believes that these three suspects in custody were connected to that abduction and murder -- Lou.
DOBBS: Jamie, thank you. Jamie McIntyre, our senior Pentagon correspondent.
Central Command today said 309 American servicemen and women have been killed in Iraq since the beginning of the war against Saddam Hussein in March. 193 killed in action. 116 in accidents. Another 1,685 have been wounded or injured. Nearly 1400 of them in combat.
The United States is trying to commit South Korea to send more troops to Iraq. South Korea has 560,000 troops in it's army and 75,000 more soldiers than the U.S. Army but so far, it has sent only 700 engineering and medical troops to Iraq. Published reports say the United States wants South Korea to send another 5,000 soldiers. That would be a small number compared with the 37,000 Americans troops who are now defending South Korea from North Korea.
As we reported, the House Intelligence Committee says President Bush ordered the invasion of Iraq on the basis of outdated, and vague information.
Joining me now is the ranking Democrat on the House Intelligence Committee, Congresswoman Jane Harman. Good to have you with us.
REP. JANE HARMAN (D-CA), RANKING DEMOCRAT, INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEE: Nice to be on the show.
DOBBS: The idea that the United States is relying on such vague and outdated information troubles you.
What do you expect to happen, Congresswoman?
HARMAN: Well, our point in taking this detailed view of -- review of the prewar intelligence is to help us do better. We can talk at length about what wasn't right about this intelligence, but you just had a report about ongoing casualties in Iraq. Obviously, we need first-rate intelligence on the ground in Iraq to prevent as much as possible these ambushes against our forces. It's a force protection issue. It's also relevant to making our best possible decisions Iran and North Korea. If we don't have accurate and timely and unbiased intelligence we don't have good tools to win 21st century wars. So, this preliminary review which was in a letter to the director of Central Intelligence signed by Chairman Porter Goss and me, is intended to be constructive criticism and help us do better.
DOBBS: Is it your sense, because you've sat on the committee throughout many of these events, that that intelligence, as best you can determine, is improving or not?
HARMAN: I think it is improving. I think, first of all, in Iraq, now that the military phase of the war is partially over, I think that would be more accurate. We have the ability to have people on the ground who know this business and can help us get it right. What was sad pre-2003, the end of the military action, is that we lost our ground troops. Once the inspectors were dismissed from Iraq in 1998, we didn't have people on the ground who were in the buildings, who could actually tell us, yes, this scientist is making chemical weapons or biological agents and there is a specific plan to harm Americans or American interests. What we had was circumstantial, fragmentary snippets of information gleaned from people outside the country. And now that we're still looking at the weapons of mass destruction, a lot of that information was inaccurate.
DOBBS: And the accuracy of information now, as you talked about for security in Iraq, the Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, today wrote an op-ed column in the "Wall Street Journal" basicly saying no further troops are required. Simply Iraqi troops if you will and police are required. Does the intelligence that has been shared with square up with what the defense secretary asserted today?
HARMAN: Well, I can't reveal any classified intelligence. What I can do and I am doing is try to make sure the process is as good as it can be. The sources have to be credible. We have to have numerous sources. They have to be vetted. And then the product we prepare, the analysis that we do based on those sources has to stay pretty clearly whether our sources were they're good or not good, descending views have to be stated and policymakers, like Secretary Rumsfeld, have to -- I believe, have to be clear with us, the American public, about how strong is the information backing up his claims. He's a smart guy. I assume that his position is one that he feels is based on the facts. But I want to feel for the future, not just that whatever he says is accurate, but that what our vice president says and what our national security adviser says is accurate. And that any intelligence product we have states clearly and with all of the right (UNINTELLIGIBLE) and qualifiers exactly, precisely what the facts support.
DOBBS: Congresswoman Jane Harman who said -- and it appears to me without any argument correctly -- that terrorists will not look to party affiliation before blowing someone up. Congresswoman, thanks for being with us.
Tonight's quote is from a Bush administration's official "Wall Street Journal" editorial I just mentioned on rebuilding Iraq. We quote, "We should resist the urge to do for the Iraqis what would be better done by the Iraqis. We can help but only if we balance the size of our presence to meet the military challenge, while putting the increasing responsibility in Iraqi hands. That Defense Secretary Rumsfeld. It does make someone wonder why the secretary feels that way they would want a $20 billion loan rather than a $20 billion American gift.
Coming up next, oil and water don't mix but oil and politics are certainly another matter. When it comes to relations between Russia and the United States, oil is playing an important role. Big Tucker will give us the report. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Oil is fueling new economic cooperation, if not political cooperation, between Russia and the United States. In the first half of this year, trade between the two countries rose by a third. More political relationships have been troubled by events in North Korea and Iran, business interests have been undeterred. Bill Tucker, has a report -- Bill.
BILL TUCKER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, not surprisingly most of the business that we're seeing growing between the United States and Russia is energy related.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
TUCKER (voice-over): The United States wants to decrease its dependence on oil from OPEC. Russia wants to help but doubling its oil exports to America over the next five years to 10 percent of all U.S. imported oil. That would be enough to put it on par with Venezuela. While this weekend's summit between President Bush and President Putin did not produce news of political break through on cooperation in Iraq between the two countries, business was clearly on the table.
PRES. VLADIMIR PUTIN, RUSSIA (through translator): Significant attention during the negotiation was paid to Russian-American cooperation in trade and economics sphere.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We'll continue to work together to expand cooperation in the energy sector.
TUCKER: Signs of that cooperation are already evident. Lukoil, Russia's second largest oil company, rebranding its 1,300 Getty gasoline stations with its Lukoil name. Lukoil has owned Getty for two years now. Lukoil clearly sees itself in the Russian vanguard.
VADIM GLUZMAN, PRESIDENT, LUKOIL AMERICA: It would set a good example for not just American companies investing in Russia, but vice versa, Russian companies investing in the United States, and this example is a good example. So, you know, I just like to see that more Russian companies will follow us and do business in the United States.
TUCKER: The U.S. Commerce Department apparently agrees. Last week, it led a group of 13 small to large companies to St. Petersburg, for a conference on energy business development.
PETER BEUTEL, CAMERON HANOVER: What we saw on Friday with the opening of a Lukoil retail station is the beginning of a long, warm relationship between the two countries, where we exchange American technology for Russian oil.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
TUCKER: So while the politicians continue to look for a way to forge cooperations, business leaders are quietly pushing ahead with business, Lou.
DOBBS: Bill, thank you. Bill Tucker.
Coming up next, the results of tonight's poll. Christine Romans will have the market for us. And exporting America, your thoughts on American jobs being sent overseas. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: On Wall Street, stocks jumped on the day before the end of the quarter. The Dow Jones Industrials up 67 points, the Nasdaq rose 32.5, the S&P up almost 10. Christine Romans with the market now -- Christine.
CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN FINANCIAL NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Lou, there was a $10 billion insurance merger, there was approval of a big aluminum merger, and throw in there strong consumer spending and stocks moved higher today. And so with the quarter almost in the books, here is how it looks. The Dow up 12 percent, the S&P up two quarters in a row now, for the first time since 2000, techs, small caps, semiconductors all on fire; also Japanese stocks and gold stocks performing quite well in the quarter.
Now, with that in mind, Lou, look at the returns of the four biggest stock mutual funds. This courtesy of Morningstar. Vanguard 500 had plenty of tech exposure, but energy and pharmaceuticals hurt. Fidelity Magellan's manager was pessimistic about tech and was underweight in what turned out to be one of the best sectors. American Funds Investment Company of America has the best three months return of the four biggest funds, and American Funds Washington Mutual is barely higher. It focuses on dividend stocks, and the energy, drug and telecom stocks at the top of this fund's holdings have been weak this year.
Now, Lou, Kodak fell for the fifth day in a row. 3M has three for one split tonight, and after the bell Sun Microsystems, you want to go watch all of those tomorrow.
DOBBS: And John Reed is talking?
ROMANS: He is. He's talking to reporters.
DOBBS: Calling for the resignation of the board of directors, saying we need new management, it's time to get moving?
ROMANS: Let me say, he's not talking as much as he's listening. He says he's in listening mode, he said that he has told the management of the New York Stock Exchange and the board members of the New York Stock Exchange that he needs them. He doesn't need a mass exodus. He needs everyone together to help figure out what to do next for (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
DOBBS: What do investors need? Aren't these the same people who gave Dick Grasso $140 million, plus 48 in severance, plus another...
ROMANS: This is true.
DOBBS: I'm a little confused.
ROMANS: ... and Mr. Reed is going to be talking with the members of the New York Stock Exchange in a couple of days, and they have those same questions than do you.
DOBBS: New sheriff in town.
ROMANS: New sheriff in town.
DOBBS: All right. Christine Romans.
Now, the results of tonight's poll about the roughly half a million illegal aliens that enter our country each year. Did you think the number of illegal aliens would be higher, lower or about as we reported it? Sixty-two percent of you said you thought they would be higher; 22 percent lower; 17 percent as reported.
Let's take a look at some of your thoughts. Barry Morterud of Frisco, Texas wrote: "Your show has finally brought to light the despicable practice of giving away American jobs. I, like many others, have had to retrain my offshore replacement. The reason I was given by my company was because of cost, not a deficit in skills as many politicians would have people believe."
Galo Deneira of Lake Worth, Florida: "Watching last week's show, I was surprised to hear how positive Congressman Smith was about jobs. I am an unemployed software network engineer looking for a future with no hope in sight. Where are the jobs he's talking about?"
And President Bush today signed a new law allowing the FTC to enforce the do not call list. Linda of Duncanville, Texas: "We want a do-not-export-our-jobs list to sign. We could easily get 50 million to sign up."
We love hearing from you. E-mail us at loudobbs@cnn.com. That's our show for tonight. Thanks for being with us. Tomorrow, in our special reports, "The Great American Giveaway," we look at one company's tough decision. Its technology stolen overseas; the company must either ship production and jobs overseas, or shut down altogether. For all of us here, good night from New York. "ANDERSON COOPER 360" is next.
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