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Lou Dobbs Tonight
President Bush Takes on Critics; Democrats Debate in Phoenix
Aired October 09, 2003 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT for Thursday, October 9. Here now, Lou Dobbs.
LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening.
This is day two of the White House public relations offensive on Iraq. President Bush chose this day, the sixth-month anniversary of the fall of Saddam Hussein, to defend his Iraq policy and the reasons for going to war. In a direct message to his critics, President Bush said the challenges of today cannot be met with timid actions or bitter words. But no words from the president or anyone else could overcome the news that another American and at least nine other people were killed in Iraq today.
White House correspondent Dana Bash is traveling with the president and joins us now -- Dana.
DANA BASH, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Lou, the president is now here in Lexington, Kentucky, to do a speech for a gubernatorial candidate here.
But the big news out of this White House was, earlier today, we were in New Hampshire. He had two major themes he talked about, of course, Iraq and the broader war on terrorism and also the economy. It is probably not a coincidence that polls show those are the two biggest priorities for voters as President Bush heads into a reelection year.
But with regard to what the president calls the war on terrorism or the central front on that, Iraq, the president made it clear that, as the White House has billed, he wants to show -- to say that there is progress being made in Iraq and even a sort of a jab at the media, said that things are better there than Americans are being told, but what critics say is essentially a tacit admission that things aren't going as well as planned.
The president stepped up his rhetoric in defense about the whole war and said that going to war was the right thing to do.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I acted because I was not about to leave the security of the American people in the hands of a madman. I was not about to stand by and wait and trust in the sanity and restraint of Saddam Hussein. So, in one of the swiftest and most humane military campaigns in history, we removed the threat. (END VIDEO CLIP)
BASH: The major theme also from the president today with regard to Iraq was asking essentially Americans for patience, making it clear that it is going to still be a long haul. And in the broader war on terrorism, he said, in almost a slap to his Democratic critics, that this whole war on terrorism can't be approached with timid measures or bitter fighting.
He also made clear that Saddam Hussein, anybody who doesn't think the best way to approach his defeat is by saying good riddance is simply wrong. Now, last, quickly, the president did make one unscheduled stop in the state of New Hampshire, the ever important political state. He went and shook some hands. But he denied that this was an actual campaign stop, Lou.
DOBBS: Dana, thank you.
What role, if any, do you understand Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld to play in this White House public relations offensive on post-Saddam Iraq?
BASH: That's a good question because, as you know, over the past couple of days, as the White House has been trying to get the president, the vice president, other senior aides, including the national security adviser, out doing speeches, giving interviews, the story on the front pages has been that there's an internal tug-of-war between Donald Rumsfeld and the White House.
This is something, Lou, as you know, you do not see with the Bush administration. As a matter of fact, Donald Rumsfeld did not appear before reporters. He was supposed to have a press conference with regard to NATO. He didn't appear reporters, because he didn't want to get asked about the fact that the National Security Council is now going to be taking a broader role in the postwar effort.
The White House, though, publicly makes clear that they still see Donald Rumsfeld as having a role, but they want to coordinate it more from the White House -- Lou.
DOBBS: Dana, thank you -- Dana Bash traveling with President Bush in Lexington, Kentucky, this evening.
Well, as the president delivered his remarks today, the war went on in Iraq. And the number of American casualties continue to rise. A soldier died of his wounds today after his convoy was attacked north of Baghdad; 323 American troops have now been killed in Iraq, 203 in combat, 120 in accidents. Another 1,781 Americans have been wounded or injured.
In Baghdad today, terrorists exploded a car bomb at an Iraqi police station. Eight people were killed; 32 others were wounded. That attack was the latest in a series of suicide bombings in Baghdad since August.
The president today also won an important victory in Congress for his Iraq progress. The House Appropriations Committee approved the president's request for another $87 billion, with only minor revision. The committee voted in favor after a key Republican trying to turn part of the package into a loan.
Jonathan Karl reports now from Capitol Hill -- Jonathan.
JONATHAN KARL, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Lou, that overwhelm overwhelming vote was 37 to 14 for an $86.8 billion package for Iraq and Afghanistan that follows very closely to what the president's original request was.
They beat back amendment after amendment from Democrats to change the request. Also, Democratic amendments to raise taxes on the rich to pay for it were also soundly defeated by the Republicans on the committee. The effort you refer to by a Republican was Zach Wamp, a Republican of Tennessee, who had been carrying the torch for those that who want to see the reconstruction money be a loan for Iraq that would be paid back with oil revenues, instead of an outright grant.
Zach Wamp talked about that, made the case that Iraq should pay the United States back for this money before other debtors to Iraq get paid back. This is what he had to say at the hearing.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. ZACH WAMP (R), TENNESSEE: I don't think, Germany, France or Russia should be paid a dime if the United States taxpayers are not going to be paid a dime. And I think that's serious business and we ought to stand our ground on that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KARL: But Representative Wamp took back his amendment, not bringing it up to a vote, after getting lobbied very hard by the president. In fact, President Bush brought Representative Wamp down to the White House yesterday. They had a one-on-one meeting. The president made the case that this was something that would harm reconstruction efforts in Iraq.
And Representative Wamp told reporters -- quote -- "My God, if his eyes had been laser, mine would have been burned out." This was something that was a very high priority for the president, defeating this loan effort.
By the way, Lou, one other very interesting development, though, that was a blow to the White House, an amendment was passed that is being called by Republicans the Condi Rice amendment. It says that none of this reconstruction effort can be coordinated by any official who is not confirmed by Congress. As you know, Condoleezza Rice, as national security adviser, is not confirmed by Congress, does not have to testify before Congress.
And she was the one that was put in charge of that Iraqi working group that was set up by the White House to coordinate reconstruction efforts just last week. Congress is sending a message to the White House, Republicans say, that they don't like the idea of this kind of development happening without consulting Congress first. So that was somewhat of a blow to the White House. But the big picture is, they got almost all they wanted for in terms of money for Iraq and Afghanistan.
DOBBS: Thank you very much -- Jonathan Karl reporting from Capitol Hill.
Well, Iraq is certain to be one of the topics in tonight's debate among the nine Democratic presidential candidates that's being held in Phoenix, Arizona.
It comes as the latest CNN/"USA Today"/Gallup poll of registered Democrats put retired General Wesley Clark five percentage points ahead of his nearest rival, Howard Dean, Dean holding 16 percent. Kerry, 13 percent, and the same percentage for Senator Joseph Lieberman.
Congressman Dick Gephardt remains in the single digits, with 8 percent, followed by Al Sharpton, Carol Moseley Braun, and the rest of the group.
Dan Lothian has our report from Phoenix, Arizona -- Dan.
DAN LOTHIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hello, Lou.
Well, I just want to give you a sense of what is happening out here in front of the theater, where that debate is taking place. What would a debate be without the protesters and without supporters of the various candidates? They have been shouting at each other. There have also been the protesters here with signs with everything from fair trade to health care.
Now, for the past few weeks or so, the eyes of the nation have been focused on California and that recall race. With that race now behind us, now it's time to see the presidential race get into action.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Order is OK.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.
LOTHIAN (voice-over): Final preparations are being made for the fourth official presidential debate. A crowded field of now nine candidates after Senator Bob Graham became the first casualty, dropping out this week on the "Larry King Show."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP FROM "LARRY KING LIVE")
SEN. BOB GRAHAM (D-FL), FORMER PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I have made the judgment that I cannot be elected president of the United States, primarily because of a late start.
(END VIDEO CLIP) LOTHIAN: Retired General Wesley Clark, who also got a late start and admittedly got a pass on tough questions in the last debate, is expected to be tested this time around. Arizona State University political science professor Richard Herrera says the candidates may demand more specifics.
PROF. RICHARD HERRERA, ARIZONA STATE UNIVERSITY: But you can only go to the well, so to speak, with the answers like I've only been in this for a short time, I've only begun to look into issues, things like that.
LOTHIAN: And more pressure on Clark. His campaign manager has resigned and now questions are being raised about whether or not the retired general violated election laws by making paid speeches, viewed by some as political campaigning. Late Wednesday, Clark decided to cancel all future paid speeches and return money received since entering the race.
Tonight, the focus is expected to be on common themes, like tax cuts, health care, trade issues and Iraq.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
LOTHIAN: Now, Lou, a few minutes ago, of course, we heard that President Bush was defending his position on the war in Iraq.
Here in Arizona today, Howard Dean was criticizing the president for going into Iraq. He was at Arizona State University. And he said -- quote -- "As commander in chief, I wouldn't send troops into combat without telling the American people the whole truth about what's going on."
No doubt, Iraq will be an important question in the debate tonight -- Lou.
DOBBS: Dan, thank you, Dan Lothian reporting from Phoenix, Arizona.
And, of course, CNN will be carrying live tonight's debate. It begins at 8:00 p.m. Eastern, 5:00 p.m. Pacific. The debate will be moderated by "INSIDE POLITICS"' Judy Woodruff. And the panelists will include our Candy Crowley and Jeff Greenfield.
In Philadelphia today, allegations of political dirty tricks and corrupt government after the discovery of an FBI bug in the mayor's office. Politicians from both parties demanding an explanation, but from the FBI, only silence.
Walt Hunter of our affiliate KYW reports from Philadelphia.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
WALT HUNTER, KYW REPORTER (voice-over): The high-rise just to the right of city hall is the Center Square Building. CBS-3 has learned the FBI initially hoped to install a sophisticated listening device in one of the offices there. On a direct line of sight to the mayor's window, it would have allowed agents to listen in without having to physically install a bug inside the office.
But the original plan to listen in from the high-rise didn't work out. And it was then that agent had to install a bug with microphones inside the mayor's office. That bug, when it was found, revealed the investigation and created the controversy now surrounding the mayor.
BOB BRADY, PHILADELPHIA DEMOCRATIC CHAIRMAN: What's on the microphones? They have been there for a while. What's going on here?
HUNTER: Bob Brady, head of the city's Democratic Party, says, while he's glad to hear the mayor revealed that he has been told he is not a target of the investigation, still, the FBI should say exactly why it's working to find out what's going on in the mayor's office.
BRADY: I'm just saying, let this mayor run his election. Let him do what he has to do. And it's a shame he has got to run in to all this kind of stuff.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: That Walt Hunter of our affiliate KYW, reporting from Philadelphia.
And more on this story, this an outrage in Philadelphia. The FBI bug in the mayor's office is creating considerable consternation on the part of both parties. We'll be joined by Democratic Congressman Joe Hoeffel of Pennsylvania. He is our guest. Protests in Texas after the Border Patrol released dozens of illegal aliens because of a lack of funding and space. And that has the mayor of Laredo, Texas, upset. Joining us tonight, Mayor Elizabeth Flores.
And in "The Great American Giveaway," our special report. Sometimes, it is very good indeed to give. President Bush wants to double the size of the Peace Corps.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: An escalating political drama tonight in Philadelphia. Two days after the discovery of an FBI listening device in the office of Philadelphia's mayor, the FBI is saying nothing. The U.S. attorney's office is saying nothing. And politicians are now demanding answers.
I am joined by one of those demanding answers, Pennsylvania Congressman Joe Hoeffel. He joins us from outside City Hall in Philadelphia.
Congressman, this is turning into an extraordinary situation. What are your thoughts?
REP. JOE HOEFFEL (D), PENNSYLVANIA: Well, we need to know what the FBI knows.
The voters of Philadelphia need to know it. The mayor needs to know it. This is developing into a situation that simply is not fair to the mayor and to the efforts he's making to get reelected. Coming up within 30 days of the election with the FBI telling the mayor's lawyer that he's not a target, but refusing to tell the public directly and not saying anything else, these half-statements are turning this into us a half-public, half-private investigation. And that's totally wrong. It's just not fair.
DOBBS: And we should explain to our viewers that the race in Philadelphia is hotly contested. It is a narrow race and one that has had -- brought charges and countercharges throughout the campaign.
At this point, have you talked to the U.S. attorney's office? Have you talked with the mayor's office or the mayor himself about what should be or could be done at this point?
HOEFFEL: Well, I have talked to the mayor.
And as he has said publicly, he has said to me privately that his attorney was told that he is not a target. And that's all he was told. That's all the information that he has. What's happening is that this is becoming interjected into the political campaign. The mayor's opponent is suggesting this afternoon that the mayor needs to come clean and tell more. The mayor says that he's told the public everything he knows, which is, he's not a target.
It's almost unavoidable for this to become a football now in the campaign. And that's why it's so unfair. The federal government has got to say what they know. If they've got something, they've got to say it. If the mayor's not a target, they've got to say that, too.
DOBBS: In fairness, Congressman, Mayor Street has also intimated that this is a Republican conspiracy against him, just as his opponent is making his charges. That's correct, isn't it, as well?
HOEFFEL: The mayor has said that.
I don't know what the truth is here. The problem is, the FBI, which I have faith in as not being a political operation or organization, is making itself look political by having kind of a half-statement or two to the media and nothing more and allowing this uncertainty to fester. And that's why it's a bad deal.
DOBBS: Pennsylvania's governor, Governor Ed Rendell, also a Democrat, obviously very upset about this, also, along with you and others in the delegation, demanding answers, along with Mayor Street.
What can you do? Right now, the U.S. attorney says he is bound by the U.S. Code of Justice not to speak further. What can you do? What do you expect to do?
HOEFFEL: Well, I think they can say more. They've done it in the past; 20 years ago, a Philadelphia mayor was accused by the media of being under federal investigation. And the U.S. attorney said that wasn't true.
A U.S. congressman was rumored to be under federal investigation here 15 years ago. The U.S. attorney said it wasn't true. The U.S. attorney hasn't made full or clear statements here.
(CROSSTALK)
HOEFFEL: I'd like to know how high up in the Justice Department this whole matter has risen. Who needed to approve a wiretap in the office of the mayor of the fifth largest city in the country? Who in Washington knows about this? They've got to come clean. They are making themselves look political by not telling us what they know.
DOBBS: Congressman Joe Hoeffel, we appreciate it.
HOEFFEL: Thank you.
DOBBS: Thank you very much, coming us to from just outside City Hall in Philadelphia.
That brings us to the subject of our poll tonight. The question is, should federal investigators immediately disclose the reason for bugging Mayor Street's office, yes, no, or you need more information before answering? Please vote on our Web site, CNN.com/Lou. We'll have the results later in the show.
Coming up next, our special report, "The Great American Giveaway -- tonight, the Peace Corps and American contribution to volunteerism all around the world and all that we receive in return. Casey Wian has the story.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Tonight, we continue our series of special reports, "The Great American Giveaway."
The Peace Corps has been helping poor countries around the world now for 40 years. At the same time, it's helped improve this country's image. That program has been so successful that President Bush now wants to double the number of volunteers.
Casey Wian has the story.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The Peace Corps wasn't JFK's idea, but, more than anyone, he made it happen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHN F. KENNEDY, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: It is a genuine effort by the people of the United States, particularly those who are young, to play their part in working for peace and improving the lives of all mankind.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WIAN: While many nations have started similar programs, the Peace Corps remains the world's largest government-funded volunteer organization aiding developing nations; 170,000 Americans, from senators to TV stars, have served in 136 countries, building homes, improving agriculture, teaching English.
DAN FOOTE, FORMER PEACE CORPS VOLUNTEER: It helps to overcome the perception in many places overseas that Americans are the richest, most spoiled, most selfish nation in the world.
WIAN: Peace Corps volunteers are often the first Americans people in developing nations meet.
GADDI VASQUEZ, DIRECTOR, PEACE CORPS: There are many leaders in countries today who sit as prime ministers, as vice presidents, as presidents, as ministers of various agencies and organizations who were thought and trained by Peace Corps volunteers during their childhood or during their youth.
WIAN: The Peace Corps has evolved beyond its college campus roots. Now 6 percent of its 7,000 volunteers are 50 or older.
JOSEPH SIEGLE, COUNCIL ON FOREIGN RELATIONS: The Peace Corps budget's about $300 million a year currently. And I think it probably has more bang for the buck in terms of improving the U.S. image than just about anything else that we're spending that amount on.
WIAN: President Bush wants to double the Peace Corps ranks to 14,000 volunteers and boost its budget to a half-billion dollars by 2007. That would be the fastest buildup since the program's start in 1961.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
WIAN: While the Peace Corps lobbies Congress for more money, there's no shortage of Americans willing to volunteer. The Peace Corps has a backlog of 200,000 people who have requested information. And applicants outnumber accepted volunteers by more than 2-1 -- Lou.
DOBBS: A remarkable success over four decades, the Peace Corps.
Casey Wian, reporting from Los Angeles -- thank you, Casey.
Still ahead here: Federal agents release scores of illegal aliens from a detention center in Laredo, Texas, and they didn't tell local officials. Those local officials are irate. Mayor Elizabeth Flores of Laredo is amongst those outraged. She is our guest.
And then, Governor Bill Richardson of New Mexico joins me to talk about what his state is doing about illegal aliens and what he believes should be a national immigration policy.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Border Patrol officials in Laredo, Texas, released dozens of illegal aliens from a detention center yesterday. The reason, they said, a lack of space and a lack of money.
The illegal aliens will be assigned dates for deportation hearings, but federal officials admit they have no way to guarantee those individuals will actually show up for the hearings.
My next guest says the release of those illegal aliens with only a few hours notice makes a mockery of our nation's immigration laws.
Elizabeth Flores is the may offer Laredo, Texas, and joins us from Miami, Florida, where she is attending the mayors conference.
Mayor, good to have you with us.
ELIZABETH FLORES (I), MAYOR OF LAREDO, TEXAS: Thank you so much for the invitation. This is an issue that affects my city, but it's your border.
DOBBS: And, as our border, as we've been reporting here, it is becoming simply porous, whether one talks about illegal immigration, whether one talks about national security. That's a concern for all of us.
But most concerning is how the Border Patrol in your city could release illegal aliens that they have apprehended and detained without telling you or law enforcement officials. How did that happen?
FLORES: I don't know, Lou. And it was very disconcerting to us.
In fact, I don't even blame our local Border Patrol, because they were as upset as we were. They're the ones that risk their lives every day to be sure that our borders are safe. They captured these people. They detained them, just to find out that the deportation offices didn't have enough money to detain them or to deport them. So they were just as upset, as I was. And the entire community was up in arms.
DOBBS: And, at this point, what has the Border Patrol, the local office or Homeland Security in Washington, who is responding to your concerns as the official responsible for your community, which, for those viewers who are not aware, Laredo sits right on the border with Mexico?
FLORES: That's right.
And, in fact, the irony is that the Mexicans that are detained are deported, because we're right there on the border. However, these were all South and Central Americans we know nothing about. There is no border patrol global criminal check so we don't know what these people are, what they've done in their countries or if in fact they're just people looking for jobs and most of them are.
But what did happen is the border patrol responded to my concerns. They actually paid for these people to make a phone call to their friends and neighbors that are already in the United States and they got a free ticket to many of these places within the United States. DOBBS: So the immigration...
FLORES: Who's responsible...
DOBBS: I'm sorry to interrupt you.
FLORES: That's all right.
DOBBS: The border patrol with illegal aliens in -- under arrest, in detention, their solution then was to send them on to the rest of the country to meet with friends and perhaps even family?
FLORES: That's right. And it was just unbelievable to me. It was unbelievable to them. It was just -- I couldn't believe that this was happening in the United States. So I, of course, immediately got on the phone with Congressman Bonilla who was as livid as I was and he took some action.
And in fact today I had some good news. In fact just before I came this afternoon to the station that he added two amendments to the Iraq supplemental bill that says no more repatriation, no more lateral repatriation because that was in the state as far as we were concerned and no more letting these illegal immigrants from south and central America go out -- just go into the United States on their own recognizance. That is not going to happen anymore. The bill was passed overwhelmingly as I understand at the House.
DOBBS: Well, that is certainly positive news. It still leaves us, however, in this country without a national immigration policy. It makes governance of communities like your, the state of Texas, New Mexico, Arizona and California, however no less difficult dealing with these national issues on the basis.
What would you, Mayor Flores, suggest as an appropriate step here to control immigration, to control border security, to improve border security?
FLORES: I think, Lou, there is no one simple solution, but certainly the people on the border need to be at the table to discuss these issues. We are the ones dealing with them every day. We know the value that the immigrants bring to this country and the work that they're doing in this country because others won't do it. We understand all of that value. We understand the human issue of it. But we also understand the national security issue and the responsibility that we as a border community have to the rest of the country.
So I think the important -- the most important thing is to have the local communities, local law enforcement and all those agents that are on the front lines in my community at the table making the decisions and participating in the dialogue in Washington.
And we've also got to decide in this national immigration law that these people are here to work and we've got to understand that we -- let them come in and work and then let's follow them. Let's understand where they're going to work. Let's know where they're living and not just turn our backs on this problem because that's what we're doing.
DOBBS: And we're doing so with great risk to this country, are we not? Not only in issues of immediate national security, but in point of fact, Mexico, a nation of more than 100 million people, the United States by some estimates, is absorbing one-half of their natural population growth each year.
FLORES: Well, and that's not the only problem. I think the biggest problem they see as far as the national security issue is the fact that the borders of Mexico, not the northern borders, but the other borders of Mexico are not secure and we don't have a dialogue with their military or with any of their border people on the other borders to understand what's going on.
We do have that dialogue in Canada. We do not have it with the Mexicans and that's disappointing to me. In the Rio Grande just three weeks ago there was a lady that drowned, an illegal immigrant from Poland. Now you tell me that that could not have been stopped somewhere had we had some kind of an immigration policy and a dialogue with Mexico about national security.
DOBBS: Mayor Elizabeth Flores, thank you very much for bringing the issues to the attention of our national officials as this important dialogue on a national immigration policy is beginning, beginning to take hold and we'll do everything I assure you, mayor, to assure that that dialogue continues. Thank you very much, mayor.
FLORES: And we appreciate that. We appreciate that.
DOBBS: Thank you very much.
Joining me now for more on immigration and border security is New Mexico's governor former energy secretary Bill Richardson and he joins us from Santa Fe, New Mexico. Governor, good to have you with us.
GOV. BILL RICHARDSON, (D) NEW MEXICO: Thank you, Lou. Nice to be with you.
DOBBS: You've just heard, I presume you had the opportunity to listen to Mayor Flores, outraged saying that this nation's immigration laws are being made a mockery of by the very officials, the very ones who are responsible for executing those laws. What's your reaction?
RICHARDSON: Well, Lou, in New Mexico we don't have the immigration problems that other border states have. In fact, we've taken a positive approach. My first bill that I signed was the driver's licenses for immigrants. I think that is a positive way of acknowledging the presence of many people that are here, that are working, paying taxes.
Secondly, what I think is needed, Lou, is an immigration accord. President Fox and President Bush early on committed to doing it. The 9/11 scrapped that, but 9/11 has happened and I think the time has come to start dealing with the fact that our trade with Mexico for the first time has decreased from 23 to $22 billion per year.
DOBBS: Right.
RICHARDSON: That there are a lot of border health problems. That there are some security and transportation concerns. And I think the border agreement, that border governors, I'd chair the border governors that we need to start talking again. We haven't done. I think that there has to be a balance between concern for terrorism and security and the basic needs we have at the border.
DOBBS: As you talk about a board agreement, is it -- and governor I appreciate the sensitivities that are involved here. There are issues from economics to geopolitics and even to race, but the issue here seems to me, at least to be -- there is no national immigration policy that is before our elected representatives and before the American people in which to provide a context for that border agreement. Everything seems to be ad hoc. Execution and implementation and enforcement seems to be really governed by indifference.
RICHARDSON: Well I agree with that, Lou, and I think President Bush and president Fox who had a very good relationship that went a little -- over the Iraq differences when Mexico wasn't with us. I think we need to put that aside and revive the immigration accord talks that Secretary Powell would leave that they would deal with probably an amnesty for those that are here with the United States legally, that would deal with issues of border security, that would deal with guest worker programs, that would deal with ways that the security interests of this country and terrorism interests that we have to protect could be balanced by common sense policies that recognize the importance of our immigration laws and the need for more border trade and more border contact.
We're so close to Mexico here, it's almost as if there's an intermingling of countries and we're ready to do it, but the federal government and the Congress have to take a leadership role and we've been waiting.
DOBBS: Well, you are -- as the chief executive of your state, Governor Richardson, willing to do it? The fact is as I raise with Mayor Flores, Mexico is a nation of 100 million people. The United States by most estimates right now is absorbing one-half of the natural population growth of Mexico and some of it legal, most of it illegal immigration.
Is the -- more than 20 percent growth over the last decade in Mexico's population continues, this simply is going to overwhelm this country if that becomes a national policy decision that is one thing for it to happen with politicians ignoring the issues is quite another, is it not?
RICHARDSON: That's right, Lou. Look, Mexico needs to do its share and it hasn't. It has to start providing more jobs at the border. It has to start enforcing its immigration laws instead of encouraging everybody to almost leave the country, but at the same time you've got to be practical and realistic and recognize that we are a melting pot, that we do have to have enforcement of our laws and protection of our jobs. But the reality at the border that we see is that we are not dealing with the issues of border transportation and border security because we are so preoccupied with the terrorism issue that it has clouded some practical realities that day to day we have to deal here in our border states as that Mayor Flores mentioned.
DOBBS: Governor, as you say in the context of terrorism, the idea that somewhere between 700 and a million illegal aliens can cross our borders, it's reasonable, I think to ask just how concerned are we as a government, how concerned is our government about the security of that border.
Governor Richardson, we are out of time. I really appreciate your time and I hope you come back as we continue our dialogue on this important issue. And if I may say so governor, I admire greatly that very western vest of yours.
RICHARDSON: Thank you, Lou. Thank you very much.
DOBBS: Tonight's quote comes from another governor on the wager he has made on the outcome of the major league championship series. "The New York Yankees are battling the Boston Red Sox. The bet goes well beyond lobsters and steaks this time. I made a bet with Governor George Pataki on the outcome and the winner gets Connecticut." That from Governor Mitt Romney of Massachusetts.
Just ahead, "Grange On Point," the American businesses that are being honored for supporting our men and women in the National Guard and reserves.
And Jack Welch. He's somewhat direct and straightforward in his approach to business. We'll hear from him on his views on executive compensation, corporate governance and the state of this economy. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: In "Grange On Point" tonight the American businesses supporting our National Guard and reserves. 300,000 reservists and National Guardsmen have been mobilized to active duty since September 11. Some companies have gone well beyond the call of duty to support them. General David Grange is here now with the story. General, that's the kind of story we like to lead with.
RET. BRIG GEN. DAVID GRANGE, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: That's right. There's a considerable amount of dedication, of burden and sharing by American businesses, these employers taking care of the citizen soldier and actually contributing to the efforts that America's committed to by taking care of some problems that these reservists have when they're mobilized to join the active force.
DOBBS: Dave, we all know that the law requires at minimum, certain support from businesses and corporations. What motivates these companies to do more to go beyond the simply the written expectation? GRANGE: Well, first of all, there's really a patriotic reason for part of it and that is in fact true. There's businesses that are -- that have this patriotism in their blood, in their company. They want to be a part of the effort, they want to contribute. And the other is, they just take care of their people. And they know if you take care of your people, the people are going to take care of the organization, because they'll buy into the company and that's what's happened.
DOBBS: How important is that support to recruiting, to retaining National Guardsmen and women, and the men and women of the reserves?
GRANGE: Well, as an example, a lot of the G.I's that go on active duty from all services take a pay cut, about half take a pay cut when they get activated to serve abroad or in the United States on homeland defense and who makes up that difference? That's a big blow to the family. So a lot of these companies pay that difference in the pay received to carry the family forward and that's very important.
DOBBS: Absolutely and importantly, we ought to name names on good stories these days. Give us a few names of companies that are exceptional in their support.
GRANGE: Well there's a company called Albertson, Home Depot, Verizon Communications. Another one is Clear Channel Airports are four recent nominees that will receive awards next month.
DOBBS: Outstanding and we will keep, through your good offices on "Grange On Point," our viewers at least apprised of which companies are doing much to help the men and women who deserve it. Thank you, David Grange.
DOBBS: Let's turn to Jack Welch. He helped build GE into a pretty successful company. In fact, the most successful company of all time. The paperback edition of his book, "Jack: Straight From The Gut" has just been released. Jack Welch joins me now.
Jack, good to have you here.
JACK WELCH, FRM. CEO OF GE: Hello, it's nice to be here.
DOBBS: You are still pushing books.
WELCH: Yes, hocking away.
DOBBS: And we should point out that the proceeds from this book.
WELCH: Go to charity.
DOBBS: It is a terrific read. Of course, I've had 2 years to do it, but I finally got through.
WELCH: You rascal.
DOBBS: This book is a terrific business book. You had added an afterward to bring it to date. We have gone through much since September 11. In point of fact, we should let the audience know, you were scheduled to be here the evening of September 11 and obviously, we had to move that date. But so much has happened. The war on terror, corporate corruption scandals, the Wall Street scandals. Give us your impression of business right now in this country.
WELCH: I think we've hit a low point and I think we're on our way back. We had some terrible issues. We had some bad behavior, but, you know, as I went around the country I talked to over 200,000 people in the last two years in Q and A sessions and there are millions of good people who good to work every day doing it right and there's a great group of CEOs out there trying to keep us competitive.
And I think you're seeing this recovery take place. I think it's stronger than people are expecting and barring any terrorism or anything like that, I think we are going to have a real, real strong recovery.
DOBBS: Now, you and I have known each other for a very long time and I know when you say things are looking good, you are the first person I know to really call the turn in the late '90s. You are seeing a positive economic signs?
WELCH: There's no question we have so much money, so much stimulus, from government spending, from tax cuts, et cetera that the consumer is really gearing up to another level. Stores everywhere are feeling it and now this overcapacity is gradually being eased out of the system.
Now we had a bump-up in jobs and we may have a bump back in the next month or two, but in general, the direction's going to be steady job growth and strong economic recovery, barring any unforeseens.
DOBBS: And excellent news on employment today as well. The New York Stock Exchange, right now trying to reform itself as it regulates itself. I am personally skeptical of an institution reforming itself and regulating itself. How do you feel about that?
WELCH: You know Lou, I really don't know the technicalities of the issue in terms of that. I think that the New York Stock Exchange had one hell of a tough time, you know, as the Nasdaq came after them. And they increased their listings, they modernized the place and from a corporate side, they did a terrific job.
John Reed is a very smart guy and he will dig into this thing. And he and Bill Donaldson together will decide whether we split it or don't split it.
DOBBS: Dick Grasso was a smart guy too, but he was running a not for profit organization, a quasi regulatory organization that was paying him over $20 million dollars a year, a take-out of over $200 million. That's the wrong message from the institution that's supposed to be setting the standard of governance isn't it?
WELCH: Well I -- Lou, he had a set of metrics (ph). He did the job according to those metametrics (ph). A bunch of guys decided to pay him this much for his. You know, I've been in the entertainment business for a number of years and I never had one star come back and say, I don't want it. Dick Grasso did a good job.
Now, was it too much? I can't go to the absolute number. I don't want to. I don't know what's right or wrong in the absolute number. But he unlike the guy -- unlike the rascals who some companies that walk home with the big...
DOBBS: No, I'm not putting it him in that (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
WELCH: The big barrels that go out with that money.
DOBBS: Take Grasso is a good guy, but he took way, way too much money.
WELCH: The board gave him to much money.
DOBBS: I'll tell you what I think of the board. Well, I won't tell you. Yes, I will. I think the board bears great responsibility and should be held accountable for it. And you and I know no one knows more about it than the issues of executive compensation than you. I hope you'll come back and we can talk about it because it's an important dialog.
WELCH: I'd love to.
DOBBS: And page 205, you bring this book up-to-date, but you don't change the part where you're mentioning me in it.
WELCH: We tried to get you, then we tried to beat you and then the war came you killed us.
DOBBS: Jack Welch, thanks for the update. Good to see you.
WELCH: Great. Nice to see you, Lou.
DOBBS: Coming up next here, good news in the labor markets sends stock prices surging. Christine Romans will have the market for us. That and a great deal more. Please stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: The results of "Tonight's Poll, should federal investigators immediately disclose the reason for bugging mayor Street's office? 82 percent of you say, yes, 8 percent say, no, 10 percent say you need more information before deciding.
On Wall Street today the Dow up 49 points. The Nasdaq rose 18. The S&P up 5.
Christine Romans is here now with the market -- Christine.
CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNNfn CORRESPONDENT: 16-month high for the Dow. 19 month high for the Nasdaq.
DOBBS: Don't race over that. How high?
ROMANS: 16 month high for the Dow. 19 month high for the Nasdaq. Volume improved one and half billion shares and five stocks rose for every three that fell, Lou. And driving these gain, September chain store sales the best in 18 month almost 6 percent sales growth in the month. Jobless claims fell to the lowest since February. Earnings optimism was stocked by Yahoo!'s strong earnings and record revenue. Which brings me got Internet rally today, Lou, it was remarkable. Yahoo!'s stock hit a 3-month high. Ebay topped its March 2000 peak briefly today and Amazon, also the best since 2000, another resemblance to 2000, all these stocks have at least doubled this year and the price to earnings ratios have soared. Look at Yahoo!'s P-E, 77, Ebay, 55, Amazon, 65. Look at S&P it's much less about 29.
Now a another winner today, Guidant, in the last 20 minutes of trade yesterday the stock fell more than $2. No one knew why. Later a J.P. Morgan analyst said the company had issued a recall of one of its stints. Still later, Guidant issued a press release confirming that, then today the stock rallied back almost 5 percent. In the end the investors determined the recall may not be material, but clumsy handling of information, some investors were concerned.
News of another subpoena, Gabelli Capital.
DOBBS: Gabelli.
ROMANS: Yes. A New York attorney general issuing a subpoena. I think we can safely assume pretty much everyone out there has been drawn to this, and the New York attorney general is looking for any kind of market timing.
DOBBS: By drawn into we mean, Attorney General Eliot Spitzer, is going to investigate every one of them.
ROMANS: Every single one of them. So, yes, keep it tuned here because we'll have probably one every night, I'm sure.
DOBBS: OK, thank you very much, Christine.
Now for a look at "Your Thoughts" and I want to tell you right now that this show has, I think the smartest audience in television. Each day I rye to read as many of the e-mails as possibly can and each day I can honestly say I learn something. Here's a couple of examples if I may share them.
From Dallas, Texas, "Since the Mexican government has taken upon itself the issuing of an identity card called 'matricula consular' to illegal immigrants, why don't we pass a which would allow these cards to be presented to hospitals and medical providers as a Mexican Medicare card through which we could bill the Mexican government for services provided. The same procdedure could be used when enrolling illegal children in our schools." That from Bob Wilson.
And from Santa Barbara, California: "Stopping illegal immigration could be very simple. Fine anyone hiring illegals $500 a day for each one hired, and enforce it."
From Attleboro, Massachusetts, "Bravo on your segment dealing with the issue of illegal immigration. All human beings deserve respect and compassion but our nation must come first." That from Norm Noth Jr.
From Monrovia, California, "Thank you for calling a spade, a spade. They are not undocumented workers they are illegal aliens. The federal government needs to protect our borders." Bill Sheiff.
We love hearing from you, e-mail us your thoughts at loudobbs@cnn.com.
That's our show for tonight, and we thank you for being with us.
Tomorrow on our special report, "The Great American Giveaway," can we afford to feed the world's hungry? Can we afford not to?
And in our feature, "Heroes," we bring you the story of army specialist, Robert Acosta (ph) who put his own life in jeopardy to save his fellow soldiers. For all of us here, good night from New York. "ANDERSON COOPER 360" is next.
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ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT for Thursday, October 9. Here now, Lou Dobbs.
LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening.
This is day two of the White House public relations offensive on Iraq. President Bush chose this day, the sixth-month anniversary of the fall of Saddam Hussein, to defend his Iraq policy and the reasons for going to war. In a direct message to his critics, President Bush said the challenges of today cannot be met with timid actions or bitter words. But no words from the president or anyone else could overcome the news that another American and at least nine other people were killed in Iraq today.
White House correspondent Dana Bash is traveling with the president and joins us now -- Dana.
DANA BASH, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Lou, the president is now here in Lexington, Kentucky, to do a speech for a gubernatorial candidate here.
But the big news out of this White House was, earlier today, we were in New Hampshire. He had two major themes he talked about, of course, Iraq and the broader war on terrorism and also the economy. It is probably not a coincidence that polls show those are the two biggest priorities for voters as President Bush heads into a reelection year.
But with regard to what the president calls the war on terrorism or the central front on that, Iraq, the president made it clear that, as the White House has billed, he wants to show -- to say that there is progress being made in Iraq and even a sort of a jab at the media, said that things are better there than Americans are being told, but what critics say is essentially a tacit admission that things aren't going as well as planned.
The president stepped up his rhetoric in defense about the whole war and said that going to war was the right thing to do.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I acted because I was not about to leave the security of the American people in the hands of a madman. I was not about to stand by and wait and trust in the sanity and restraint of Saddam Hussein. So, in one of the swiftest and most humane military campaigns in history, we removed the threat. (END VIDEO CLIP)
BASH: The major theme also from the president today with regard to Iraq was asking essentially Americans for patience, making it clear that it is going to still be a long haul. And in the broader war on terrorism, he said, in almost a slap to his Democratic critics, that this whole war on terrorism can't be approached with timid measures or bitter fighting.
He also made clear that Saddam Hussein, anybody who doesn't think the best way to approach his defeat is by saying good riddance is simply wrong. Now, last, quickly, the president did make one unscheduled stop in the state of New Hampshire, the ever important political state. He went and shook some hands. But he denied that this was an actual campaign stop, Lou.
DOBBS: Dana, thank you.
What role, if any, do you understand Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld to play in this White House public relations offensive on post-Saddam Iraq?
BASH: That's a good question because, as you know, over the past couple of days, as the White House has been trying to get the president, the vice president, other senior aides, including the national security adviser, out doing speeches, giving interviews, the story on the front pages has been that there's an internal tug-of-war between Donald Rumsfeld and the White House.
This is something, Lou, as you know, you do not see with the Bush administration. As a matter of fact, Donald Rumsfeld did not appear before reporters. He was supposed to have a press conference with regard to NATO. He didn't appear reporters, because he didn't want to get asked about the fact that the National Security Council is now going to be taking a broader role in the postwar effort.
The White House, though, publicly makes clear that they still see Donald Rumsfeld as having a role, but they want to coordinate it more from the White House -- Lou.
DOBBS: Dana, thank you -- Dana Bash traveling with President Bush in Lexington, Kentucky, this evening.
Well, as the president delivered his remarks today, the war went on in Iraq. And the number of American casualties continue to rise. A soldier died of his wounds today after his convoy was attacked north of Baghdad; 323 American troops have now been killed in Iraq, 203 in combat, 120 in accidents. Another 1,781 Americans have been wounded or injured.
In Baghdad today, terrorists exploded a car bomb at an Iraqi police station. Eight people were killed; 32 others were wounded. That attack was the latest in a series of suicide bombings in Baghdad since August.
The president today also won an important victory in Congress for his Iraq progress. The House Appropriations Committee approved the president's request for another $87 billion, with only minor revision. The committee voted in favor after a key Republican trying to turn part of the package into a loan.
Jonathan Karl reports now from Capitol Hill -- Jonathan.
JONATHAN KARL, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Lou, that overwhelm overwhelming vote was 37 to 14 for an $86.8 billion package for Iraq and Afghanistan that follows very closely to what the president's original request was.
They beat back amendment after amendment from Democrats to change the request. Also, Democratic amendments to raise taxes on the rich to pay for it were also soundly defeated by the Republicans on the committee. The effort you refer to by a Republican was Zach Wamp, a Republican of Tennessee, who had been carrying the torch for those that who want to see the reconstruction money be a loan for Iraq that would be paid back with oil revenues, instead of an outright grant.
Zach Wamp talked about that, made the case that Iraq should pay the United States back for this money before other debtors to Iraq get paid back. This is what he had to say at the hearing.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. ZACH WAMP (R), TENNESSEE: I don't think, Germany, France or Russia should be paid a dime if the United States taxpayers are not going to be paid a dime. And I think that's serious business and we ought to stand our ground on that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KARL: But Representative Wamp took back his amendment, not bringing it up to a vote, after getting lobbied very hard by the president. In fact, President Bush brought Representative Wamp down to the White House yesterday. They had a one-on-one meeting. The president made the case that this was something that would harm reconstruction efforts in Iraq.
And Representative Wamp told reporters -- quote -- "My God, if his eyes had been laser, mine would have been burned out." This was something that was a very high priority for the president, defeating this loan effort.
By the way, Lou, one other very interesting development, though, that was a blow to the White House, an amendment was passed that is being called by Republicans the Condi Rice amendment. It says that none of this reconstruction effort can be coordinated by any official who is not confirmed by Congress. As you know, Condoleezza Rice, as national security adviser, is not confirmed by Congress, does not have to testify before Congress.
And she was the one that was put in charge of that Iraqi working group that was set up by the White House to coordinate reconstruction efforts just last week. Congress is sending a message to the White House, Republicans say, that they don't like the idea of this kind of development happening without consulting Congress first. So that was somewhat of a blow to the White House. But the big picture is, they got almost all they wanted for in terms of money for Iraq and Afghanistan.
DOBBS: Thank you very much -- Jonathan Karl reporting from Capitol Hill.
Well, Iraq is certain to be one of the topics in tonight's debate among the nine Democratic presidential candidates that's being held in Phoenix, Arizona.
It comes as the latest CNN/"USA Today"/Gallup poll of registered Democrats put retired General Wesley Clark five percentage points ahead of his nearest rival, Howard Dean, Dean holding 16 percent. Kerry, 13 percent, and the same percentage for Senator Joseph Lieberman.
Congressman Dick Gephardt remains in the single digits, with 8 percent, followed by Al Sharpton, Carol Moseley Braun, and the rest of the group.
Dan Lothian has our report from Phoenix, Arizona -- Dan.
DAN LOTHIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hello, Lou.
Well, I just want to give you a sense of what is happening out here in front of the theater, where that debate is taking place. What would a debate be without the protesters and without supporters of the various candidates? They have been shouting at each other. There have also been the protesters here with signs with everything from fair trade to health care.
Now, for the past few weeks or so, the eyes of the nation have been focused on California and that recall race. With that race now behind us, now it's time to see the presidential race get into action.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Order is OK.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.
LOTHIAN (voice-over): Final preparations are being made for the fourth official presidential debate. A crowded field of now nine candidates after Senator Bob Graham became the first casualty, dropping out this week on the "Larry King Show."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP FROM "LARRY KING LIVE")
SEN. BOB GRAHAM (D-FL), FORMER PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I have made the judgment that I cannot be elected president of the United States, primarily because of a late start.
(END VIDEO CLIP) LOTHIAN: Retired General Wesley Clark, who also got a late start and admittedly got a pass on tough questions in the last debate, is expected to be tested this time around. Arizona State University political science professor Richard Herrera says the candidates may demand more specifics.
PROF. RICHARD HERRERA, ARIZONA STATE UNIVERSITY: But you can only go to the well, so to speak, with the answers like I've only been in this for a short time, I've only begun to look into issues, things like that.
LOTHIAN: And more pressure on Clark. His campaign manager has resigned and now questions are being raised about whether or not the retired general violated election laws by making paid speeches, viewed by some as political campaigning. Late Wednesday, Clark decided to cancel all future paid speeches and return money received since entering the race.
Tonight, the focus is expected to be on common themes, like tax cuts, health care, trade issues and Iraq.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
LOTHIAN: Now, Lou, a few minutes ago, of course, we heard that President Bush was defending his position on the war in Iraq.
Here in Arizona today, Howard Dean was criticizing the president for going into Iraq. He was at Arizona State University. And he said -- quote -- "As commander in chief, I wouldn't send troops into combat without telling the American people the whole truth about what's going on."
No doubt, Iraq will be an important question in the debate tonight -- Lou.
DOBBS: Dan, thank you, Dan Lothian reporting from Phoenix, Arizona.
And, of course, CNN will be carrying live tonight's debate. It begins at 8:00 p.m. Eastern, 5:00 p.m. Pacific. The debate will be moderated by "INSIDE POLITICS"' Judy Woodruff. And the panelists will include our Candy Crowley and Jeff Greenfield.
In Philadelphia today, allegations of political dirty tricks and corrupt government after the discovery of an FBI bug in the mayor's office. Politicians from both parties demanding an explanation, but from the FBI, only silence.
Walt Hunter of our affiliate KYW reports from Philadelphia.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
WALT HUNTER, KYW REPORTER (voice-over): The high-rise just to the right of city hall is the Center Square Building. CBS-3 has learned the FBI initially hoped to install a sophisticated listening device in one of the offices there. On a direct line of sight to the mayor's window, it would have allowed agents to listen in without having to physically install a bug inside the office.
But the original plan to listen in from the high-rise didn't work out. And it was then that agent had to install a bug with microphones inside the mayor's office. That bug, when it was found, revealed the investigation and created the controversy now surrounding the mayor.
BOB BRADY, PHILADELPHIA DEMOCRATIC CHAIRMAN: What's on the microphones? They have been there for a while. What's going on here?
HUNTER: Bob Brady, head of the city's Democratic Party, says, while he's glad to hear the mayor revealed that he has been told he is not a target of the investigation, still, the FBI should say exactly why it's working to find out what's going on in the mayor's office.
BRADY: I'm just saying, let this mayor run his election. Let him do what he has to do. And it's a shame he has got to run in to all this kind of stuff.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: That Walt Hunter of our affiliate KYW, reporting from Philadelphia.
And more on this story, this an outrage in Philadelphia. The FBI bug in the mayor's office is creating considerable consternation on the part of both parties. We'll be joined by Democratic Congressman Joe Hoeffel of Pennsylvania. He is our guest. Protests in Texas after the Border Patrol released dozens of illegal aliens because of a lack of funding and space. And that has the mayor of Laredo, Texas, upset. Joining us tonight, Mayor Elizabeth Flores.
And in "The Great American Giveaway," our special report. Sometimes, it is very good indeed to give. President Bush wants to double the size of the Peace Corps.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: An escalating political drama tonight in Philadelphia. Two days after the discovery of an FBI listening device in the office of Philadelphia's mayor, the FBI is saying nothing. The U.S. attorney's office is saying nothing. And politicians are now demanding answers.
I am joined by one of those demanding answers, Pennsylvania Congressman Joe Hoeffel. He joins us from outside City Hall in Philadelphia.
Congressman, this is turning into an extraordinary situation. What are your thoughts?
REP. JOE HOEFFEL (D), PENNSYLVANIA: Well, we need to know what the FBI knows.
The voters of Philadelphia need to know it. The mayor needs to know it. This is developing into a situation that simply is not fair to the mayor and to the efforts he's making to get reelected. Coming up within 30 days of the election with the FBI telling the mayor's lawyer that he's not a target, but refusing to tell the public directly and not saying anything else, these half-statements are turning this into us a half-public, half-private investigation. And that's totally wrong. It's just not fair.
DOBBS: And we should explain to our viewers that the race in Philadelphia is hotly contested. It is a narrow race and one that has had -- brought charges and countercharges throughout the campaign.
At this point, have you talked to the U.S. attorney's office? Have you talked with the mayor's office or the mayor himself about what should be or could be done at this point?
HOEFFEL: Well, I have talked to the mayor.
And as he has said publicly, he has said to me privately that his attorney was told that he is not a target. And that's all he was told. That's all the information that he has. What's happening is that this is becoming interjected into the political campaign. The mayor's opponent is suggesting this afternoon that the mayor needs to come clean and tell more. The mayor says that he's told the public everything he knows, which is, he's not a target.
It's almost unavoidable for this to become a football now in the campaign. And that's why it's so unfair. The federal government has got to say what they know. If they've got something, they've got to say it. If the mayor's not a target, they've got to say that, too.
DOBBS: In fairness, Congressman, Mayor Street has also intimated that this is a Republican conspiracy against him, just as his opponent is making his charges. That's correct, isn't it, as well?
HOEFFEL: The mayor has said that.
I don't know what the truth is here. The problem is, the FBI, which I have faith in as not being a political operation or organization, is making itself look political by having kind of a half-statement or two to the media and nothing more and allowing this uncertainty to fester. And that's why it's a bad deal.
DOBBS: Pennsylvania's governor, Governor Ed Rendell, also a Democrat, obviously very upset about this, also, along with you and others in the delegation, demanding answers, along with Mayor Street.
What can you do? Right now, the U.S. attorney says he is bound by the U.S. Code of Justice not to speak further. What can you do? What do you expect to do?
HOEFFEL: Well, I think they can say more. They've done it in the past; 20 years ago, a Philadelphia mayor was accused by the media of being under federal investigation. And the U.S. attorney said that wasn't true.
A U.S. congressman was rumored to be under federal investigation here 15 years ago. The U.S. attorney said it wasn't true. The U.S. attorney hasn't made full or clear statements here.
(CROSSTALK)
HOEFFEL: I'd like to know how high up in the Justice Department this whole matter has risen. Who needed to approve a wiretap in the office of the mayor of the fifth largest city in the country? Who in Washington knows about this? They've got to come clean. They are making themselves look political by not telling us what they know.
DOBBS: Congressman Joe Hoeffel, we appreciate it.
HOEFFEL: Thank you.
DOBBS: Thank you very much, coming us to from just outside City Hall in Philadelphia.
That brings us to the subject of our poll tonight. The question is, should federal investigators immediately disclose the reason for bugging Mayor Street's office, yes, no, or you need more information before answering? Please vote on our Web site, CNN.com/Lou. We'll have the results later in the show.
Coming up next, our special report, "The Great American Giveaway -- tonight, the Peace Corps and American contribution to volunteerism all around the world and all that we receive in return. Casey Wian has the story.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Tonight, we continue our series of special reports, "The Great American Giveaway."
The Peace Corps has been helping poor countries around the world now for 40 years. At the same time, it's helped improve this country's image. That program has been so successful that President Bush now wants to double the number of volunteers.
Casey Wian has the story.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The Peace Corps wasn't JFK's idea, but, more than anyone, he made it happen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHN F. KENNEDY, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: It is a genuine effort by the people of the United States, particularly those who are young, to play their part in working for peace and improving the lives of all mankind.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WIAN: While many nations have started similar programs, the Peace Corps remains the world's largest government-funded volunteer organization aiding developing nations; 170,000 Americans, from senators to TV stars, have served in 136 countries, building homes, improving agriculture, teaching English.
DAN FOOTE, FORMER PEACE CORPS VOLUNTEER: It helps to overcome the perception in many places overseas that Americans are the richest, most spoiled, most selfish nation in the world.
WIAN: Peace Corps volunteers are often the first Americans people in developing nations meet.
GADDI VASQUEZ, DIRECTOR, PEACE CORPS: There are many leaders in countries today who sit as prime ministers, as vice presidents, as presidents, as ministers of various agencies and organizations who were thought and trained by Peace Corps volunteers during their childhood or during their youth.
WIAN: The Peace Corps has evolved beyond its college campus roots. Now 6 percent of its 7,000 volunteers are 50 or older.
JOSEPH SIEGLE, COUNCIL ON FOREIGN RELATIONS: The Peace Corps budget's about $300 million a year currently. And I think it probably has more bang for the buck in terms of improving the U.S. image than just about anything else that we're spending that amount on.
WIAN: President Bush wants to double the Peace Corps ranks to 14,000 volunteers and boost its budget to a half-billion dollars by 2007. That would be the fastest buildup since the program's start in 1961.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
WIAN: While the Peace Corps lobbies Congress for more money, there's no shortage of Americans willing to volunteer. The Peace Corps has a backlog of 200,000 people who have requested information. And applicants outnumber accepted volunteers by more than 2-1 -- Lou.
DOBBS: A remarkable success over four decades, the Peace Corps.
Casey Wian, reporting from Los Angeles -- thank you, Casey.
Still ahead here: Federal agents release scores of illegal aliens from a detention center in Laredo, Texas, and they didn't tell local officials. Those local officials are irate. Mayor Elizabeth Flores of Laredo is amongst those outraged. She is our guest.
And then, Governor Bill Richardson of New Mexico joins me to talk about what his state is doing about illegal aliens and what he believes should be a national immigration policy.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Border Patrol officials in Laredo, Texas, released dozens of illegal aliens from a detention center yesterday. The reason, they said, a lack of space and a lack of money.
The illegal aliens will be assigned dates for deportation hearings, but federal officials admit they have no way to guarantee those individuals will actually show up for the hearings.
My next guest says the release of those illegal aliens with only a few hours notice makes a mockery of our nation's immigration laws.
Elizabeth Flores is the may offer Laredo, Texas, and joins us from Miami, Florida, where she is attending the mayors conference.
Mayor, good to have you with us.
ELIZABETH FLORES (I), MAYOR OF LAREDO, TEXAS: Thank you so much for the invitation. This is an issue that affects my city, but it's your border.
DOBBS: And, as our border, as we've been reporting here, it is becoming simply porous, whether one talks about illegal immigration, whether one talks about national security. That's a concern for all of us.
But most concerning is how the Border Patrol in your city could release illegal aliens that they have apprehended and detained without telling you or law enforcement officials. How did that happen?
FLORES: I don't know, Lou. And it was very disconcerting to us.
In fact, I don't even blame our local Border Patrol, because they were as upset as we were. They're the ones that risk their lives every day to be sure that our borders are safe. They captured these people. They detained them, just to find out that the deportation offices didn't have enough money to detain them or to deport them. So they were just as upset, as I was. And the entire community was up in arms.
DOBBS: And, at this point, what has the Border Patrol, the local office or Homeland Security in Washington, who is responding to your concerns as the official responsible for your community, which, for those viewers who are not aware, Laredo sits right on the border with Mexico?
FLORES: That's right.
And, in fact, the irony is that the Mexicans that are detained are deported, because we're right there on the border. However, these were all South and Central Americans we know nothing about. There is no border patrol global criminal check so we don't know what these people are, what they've done in their countries or if in fact they're just people looking for jobs and most of them are.
But what did happen is the border patrol responded to my concerns. They actually paid for these people to make a phone call to their friends and neighbors that are already in the United States and they got a free ticket to many of these places within the United States. DOBBS: So the immigration...
FLORES: Who's responsible...
DOBBS: I'm sorry to interrupt you.
FLORES: That's all right.
DOBBS: The border patrol with illegal aliens in -- under arrest, in detention, their solution then was to send them on to the rest of the country to meet with friends and perhaps even family?
FLORES: That's right. And it was just unbelievable to me. It was unbelievable to them. It was just -- I couldn't believe that this was happening in the United States. So I, of course, immediately got on the phone with Congressman Bonilla who was as livid as I was and he took some action.
And in fact today I had some good news. In fact just before I came this afternoon to the station that he added two amendments to the Iraq supplemental bill that says no more repatriation, no more lateral repatriation because that was in the state as far as we were concerned and no more letting these illegal immigrants from south and central America go out -- just go into the United States on their own recognizance. That is not going to happen anymore. The bill was passed overwhelmingly as I understand at the House.
DOBBS: Well, that is certainly positive news. It still leaves us, however, in this country without a national immigration policy. It makes governance of communities like your, the state of Texas, New Mexico, Arizona and California, however no less difficult dealing with these national issues on the basis.
What would you, Mayor Flores, suggest as an appropriate step here to control immigration, to control border security, to improve border security?
FLORES: I think, Lou, there is no one simple solution, but certainly the people on the border need to be at the table to discuss these issues. We are the ones dealing with them every day. We know the value that the immigrants bring to this country and the work that they're doing in this country because others won't do it. We understand all of that value. We understand the human issue of it. But we also understand the national security issue and the responsibility that we as a border community have to the rest of the country.
So I think the important -- the most important thing is to have the local communities, local law enforcement and all those agents that are on the front lines in my community at the table making the decisions and participating in the dialogue in Washington.
And we've also got to decide in this national immigration law that these people are here to work and we've got to understand that we -- let them come in and work and then let's follow them. Let's understand where they're going to work. Let's know where they're living and not just turn our backs on this problem because that's what we're doing.
DOBBS: And we're doing so with great risk to this country, are we not? Not only in issues of immediate national security, but in point of fact, Mexico, a nation of more than 100 million people, the United States by some estimates, is absorbing one-half of their natural population growth each year.
FLORES: Well, and that's not the only problem. I think the biggest problem they see as far as the national security issue is the fact that the borders of Mexico, not the northern borders, but the other borders of Mexico are not secure and we don't have a dialogue with their military or with any of their border people on the other borders to understand what's going on.
We do have that dialogue in Canada. We do not have it with the Mexicans and that's disappointing to me. In the Rio Grande just three weeks ago there was a lady that drowned, an illegal immigrant from Poland. Now you tell me that that could not have been stopped somewhere had we had some kind of an immigration policy and a dialogue with Mexico about national security.
DOBBS: Mayor Elizabeth Flores, thank you very much for bringing the issues to the attention of our national officials as this important dialogue on a national immigration policy is beginning, beginning to take hold and we'll do everything I assure you, mayor, to assure that that dialogue continues. Thank you very much, mayor.
FLORES: And we appreciate that. We appreciate that.
DOBBS: Thank you very much.
Joining me now for more on immigration and border security is New Mexico's governor former energy secretary Bill Richardson and he joins us from Santa Fe, New Mexico. Governor, good to have you with us.
GOV. BILL RICHARDSON, (D) NEW MEXICO: Thank you, Lou. Nice to be with you.
DOBBS: You've just heard, I presume you had the opportunity to listen to Mayor Flores, outraged saying that this nation's immigration laws are being made a mockery of by the very officials, the very ones who are responsible for executing those laws. What's your reaction?
RICHARDSON: Well, Lou, in New Mexico we don't have the immigration problems that other border states have. In fact, we've taken a positive approach. My first bill that I signed was the driver's licenses for immigrants. I think that is a positive way of acknowledging the presence of many people that are here, that are working, paying taxes.
Secondly, what I think is needed, Lou, is an immigration accord. President Fox and President Bush early on committed to doing it. The 9/11 scrapped that, but 9/11 has happened and I think the time has come to start dealing with the fact that our trade with Mexico for the first time has decreased from 23 to $22 billion per year.
DOBBS: Right.
RICHARDSON: That there are a lot of border health problems. That there are some security and transportation concerns. And I think the border agreement, that border governors, I'd chair the border governors that we need to start talking again. We haven't done. I think that there has to be a balance between concern for terrorism and security and the basic needs we have at the border.
DOBBS: As you talk about a board agreement, is it -- and governor I appreciate the sensitivities that are involved here. There are issues from economics to geopolitics and even to race, but the issue here seems to me, at least to be -- there is no national immigration policy that is before our elected representatives and before the American people in which to provide a context for that border agreement. Everything seems to be ad hoc. Execution and implementation and enforcement seems to be really governed by indifference.
RICHARDSON: Well I agree with that, Lou, and I think President Bush and president Fox who had a very good relationship that went a little -- over the Iraq differences when Mexico wasn't with us. I think we need to put that aside and revive the immigration accord talks that Secretary Powell would leave that they would deal with probably an amnesty for those that are here with the United States legally, that would deal with issues of border security, that would deal with guest worker programs, that would deal with ways that the security interests of this country and terrorism interests that we have to protect could be balanced by common sense policies that recognize the importance of our immigration laws and the need for more border trade and more border contact.
We're so close to Mexico here, it's almost as if there's an intermingling of countries and we're ready to do it, but the federal government and the Congress have to take a leadership role and we've been waiting.
DOBBS: Well, you are -- as the chief executive of your state, Governor Richardson, willing to do it? The fact is as I raise with Mayor Flores, Mexico is a nation of 100 million people. The United States by most estimates right now is absorbing one-half of the natural population growth of Mexico and some of it legal, most of it illegal immigration.
Is the -- more than 20 percent growth over the last decade in Mexico's population continues, this simply is going to overwhelm this country if that becomes a national policy decision that is one thing for it to happen with politicians ignoring the issues is quite another, is it not?
RICHARDSON: That's right, Lou. Look, Mexico needs to do its share and it hasn't. It has to start providing more jobs at the border. It has to start enforcing its immigration laws instead of encouraging everybody to almost leave the country, but at the same time you've got to be practical and realistic and recognize that we are a melting pot, that we do have to have enforcement of our laws and protection of our jobs. But the reality at the border that we see is that we are not dealing with the issues of border transportation and border security because we are so preoccupied with the terrorism issue that it has clouded some practical realities that day to day we have to deal here in our border states as that Mayor Flores mentioned.
DOBBS: Governor, as you say in the context of terrorism, the idea that somewhere between 700 and a million illegal aliens can cross our borders, it's reasonable, I think to ask just how concerned are we as a government, how concerned is our government about the security of that border.
Governor Richardson, we are out of time. I really appreciate your time and I hope you come back as we continue our dialogue on this important issue. And if I may say so governor, I admire greatly that very western vest of yours.
RICHARDSON: Thank you, Lou. Thank you very much.
DOBBS: Tonight's quote comes from another governor on the wager he has made on the outcome of the major league championship series. "The New York Yankees are battling the Boston Red Sox. The bet goes well beyond lobsters and steaks this time. I made a bet with Governor George Pataki on the outcome and the winner gets Connecticut." That from Governor Mitt Romney of Massachusetts.
Just ahead, "Grange On Point," the American businesses that are being honored for supporting our men and women in the National Guard and reserves.
And Jack Welch. He's somewhat direct and straightforward in his approach to business. We'll hear from him on his views on executive compensation, corporate governance and the state of this economy. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: In "Grange On Point" tonight the American businesses supporting our National Guard and reserves. 300,000 reservists and National Guardsmen have been mobilized to active duty since September 11. Some companies have gone well beyond the call of duty to support them. General David Grange is here now with the story. General, that's the kind of story we like to lead with.
RET. BRIG GEN. DAVID GRANGE, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: That's right. There's a considerable amount of dedication, of burden and sharing by American businesses, these employers taking care of the citizen soldier and actually contributing to the efforts that America's committed to by taking care of some problems that these reservists have when they're mobilized to join the active force.
DOBBS: Dave, we all know that the law requires at minimum, certain support from businesses and corporations. What motivates these companies to do more to go beyond the simply the written expectation? GRANGE: Well, first of all, there's really a patriotic reason for part of it and that is in fact true. There's businesses that are -- that have this patriotism in their blood, in their company. They want to be a part of the effort, they want to contribute. And the other is, they just take care of their people. And they know if you take care of your people, the people are going to take care of the organization, because they'll buy into the company and that's what's happened.
DOBBS: How important is that support to recruiting, to retaining National Guardsmen and women, and the men and women of the reserves?
GRANGE: Well, as an example, a lot of the G.I's that go on active duty from all services take a pay cut, about half take a pay cut when they get activated to serve abroad or in the United States on homeland defense and who makes up that difference? That's a big blow to the family. So a lot of these companies pay that difference in the pay received to carry the family forward and that's very important.
DOBBS: Absolutely and importantly, we ought to name names on good stories these days. Give us a few names of companies that are exceptional in their support.
GRANGE: Well there's a company called Albertson, Home Depot, Verizon Communications. Another one is Clear Channel Airports are four recent nominees that will receive awards next month.
DOBBS: Outstanding and we will keep, through your good offices on "Grange On Point," our viewers at least apprised of which companies are doing much to help the men and women who deserve it. Thank you, David Grange.
DOBBS: Let's turn to Jack Welch. He helped build GE into a pretty successful company. In fact, the most successful company of all time. The paperback edition of his book, "Jack: Straight From The Gut" has just been released. Jack Welch joins me now.
Jack, good to have you here.
JACK WELCH, FRM. CEO OF GE: Hello, it's nice to be here.
DOBBS: You are still pushing books.
WELCH: Yes, hocking away.
DOBBS: And we should point out that the proceeds from this book.
WELCH: Go to charity.
DOBBS: It is a terrific read. Of course, I've had 2 years to do it, but I finally got through.
WELCH: You rascal.
DOBBS: This book is a terrific business book. You had added an afterward to bring it to date. We have gone through much since September 11. In point of fact, we should let the audience know, you were scheduled to be here the evening of September 11 and obviously, we had to move that date. But so much has happened. The war on terror, corporate corruption scandals, the Wall Street scandals. Give us your impression of business right now in this country.
WELCH: I think we've hit a low point and I think we're on our way back. We had some terrible issues. We had some bad behavior, but, you know, as I went around the country I talked to over 200,000 people in the last two years in Q and A sessions and there are millions of good people who good to work every day doing it right and there's a great group of CEOs out there trying to keep us competitive.
And I think you're seeing this recovery take place. I think it's stronger than people are expecting and barring any terrorism or anything like that, I think we are going to have a real, real strong recovery.
DOBBS: Now, you and I have known each other for a very long time and I know when you say things are looking good, you are the first person I know to really call the turn in the late '90s. You are seeing a positive economic signs?
WELCH: There's no question we have so much money, so much stimulus, from government spending, from tax cuts, et cetera that the consumer is really gearing up to another level. Stores everywhere are feeling it and now this overcapacity is gradually being eased out of the system.
Now we had a bump-up in jobs and we may have a bump back in the next month or two, but in general, the direction's going to be steady job growth and strong economic recovery, barring any unforeseens.
DOBBS: And excellent news on employment today as well. The New York Stock Exchange, right now trying to reform itself as it regulates itself. I am personally skeptical of an institution reforming itself and regulating itself. How do you feel about that?
WELCH: You know Lou, I really don't know the technicalities of the issue in terms of that. I think that the New York Stock Exchange had one hell of a tough time, you know, as the Nasdaq came after them. And they increased their listings, they modernized the place and from a corporate side, they did a terrific job.
John Reed is a very smart guy and he will dig into this thing. And he and Bill Donaldson together will decide whether we split it or don't split it.
DOBBS: Dick Grasso was a smart guy too, but he was running a not for profit organization, a quasi regulatory organization that was paying him over $20 million dollars a year, a take-out of over $200 million. That's the wrong message from the institution that's supposed to be setting the standard of governance isn't it?
WELCH: Well I -- Lou, he had a set of metrics (ph). He did the job according to those metametrics (ph). A bunch of guys decided to pay him this much for his. You know, I've been in the entertainment business for a number of years and I never had one star come back and say, I don't want it. Dick Grasso did a good job.
Now, was it too much? I can't go to the absolute number. I don't want to. I don't know what's right or wrong in the absolute number. But he unlike the guy -- unlike the rascals who some companies that walk home with the big...
DOBBS: No, I'm not putting it him in that (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
WELCH: The big barrels that go out with that money.
DOBBS: Take Grasso is a good guy, but he took way, way too much money.
WELCH: The board gave him to much money.
DOBBS: I'll tell you what I think of the board. Well, I won't tell you. Yes, I will. I think the board bears great responsibility and should be held accountable for it. And you and I know no one knows more about it than the issues of executive compensation than you. I hope you'll come back and we can talk about it because it's an important dialog.
WELCH: I'd love to.
DOBBS: And page 205, you bring this book up-to-date, but you don't change the part where you're mentioning me in it.
WELCH: We tried to get you, then we tried to beat you and then the war came you killed us.
DOBBS: Jack Welch, thanks for the update. Good to see you.
WELCH: Great. Nice to see you, Lou.
DOBBS: Coming up next here, good news in the labor markets sends stock prices surging. Christine Romans will have the market for us. That and a great deal more. Please stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: The results of "Tonight's Poll, should federal investigators immediately disclose the reason for bugging mayor Street's office? 82 percent of you say, yes, 8 percent say, no, 10 percent say you need more information before deciding.
On Wall Street today the Dow up 49 points. The Nasdaq rose 18. The S&P up 5.
Christine Romans is here now with the market -- Christine.
CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNNfn CORRESPONDENT: 16-month high for the Dow. 19 month high for the Nasdaq.
DOBBS: Don't race over that. How high?
ROMANS: 16 month high for the Dow. 19 month high for the Nasdaq. Volume improved one and half billion shares and five stocks rose for every three that fell, Lou. And driving these gain, September chain store sales the best in 18 month almost 6 percent sales growth in the month. Jobless claims fell to the lowest since February. Earnings optimism was stocked by Yahoo!'s strong earnings and record revenue. Which brings me got Internet rally today, Lou, it was remarkable. Yahoo!'s stock hit a 3-month high. Ebay topped its March 2000 peak briefly today and Amazon, also the best since 2000, another resemblance to 2000, all these stocks have at least doubled this year and the price to earnings ratios have soared. Look at Yahoo!'s P-E, 77, Ebay, 55, Amazon, 65. Look at S&P it's much less about 29.
Now a another winner today, Guidant, in the last 20 minutes of trade yesterday the stock fell more than $2. No one knew why. Later a J.P. Morgan analyst said the company had issued a recall of one of its stints. Still later, Guidant issued a press release confirming that, then today the stock rallied back almost 5 percent. In the end the investors determined the recall may not be material, but clumsy handling of information, some investors were concerned.
News of another subpoena, Gabelli Capital.
DOBBS: Gabelli.
ROMANS: Yes. A New York attorney general issuing a subpoena. I think we can safely assume pretty much everyone out there has been drawn to this, and the New York attorney general is looking for any kind of market timing.
DOBBS: By drawn into we mean, Attorney General Eliot Spitzer, is going to investigate every one of them.
ROMANS: Every single one of them. So, yes, keep it tuned here because we'll have probably one every night, I'm sure.
DOBBS: OK, thank you very much, Christine.
Now for a look at "Your Thoughts" and I want to tell you right now that this show has, I think the smartest audience in television. Each day I rye to read as many of the e-mails as possibly can and each day I can honestly say I learn something. Here's a couple of examples if I may share them.
From Dallas, Texas, "Since the Mexican government has taken upon itself the issuing of an identity card called 'matricula consular' to illegal immigrants, why don't we pass a which would allow these cards to be presented to hospitals and medical providers as a Mexican Medicare card through which we could bill the Mexican government for services provided. The same procdedure could be used when enrolling illegal children in our schools." That from Bob Wilson.
And from Santa Barbara, California: "Stopping illegal immigration could be very simple. Fine anyone hiring illegals $500 a day for each one hired, and enforce it."
From Attleboro, Massachusetts, "Bravo on your segment dealing with the issue of illegal immigration. All human beings deserve respect and compassion but our nation must come first." That from Norm Noth Jr.
From Monrovia, California, "Thank you for calling a spade, a spade. They are not undocumented workers they are illegal aliens. The federal government needs to protect our borders." Bill Sheiff.
We love hearing from you, e-mail us your thoughts at loudobbs@cnn.com.
That's our show for tonight, and we thank you for being with us.
Tomorrow on our special report, "The Great American Giveaway," can we afford to feed the world's hungry? Can we afford not to?
And in our feature, "Heroes," we bring you the story of army specialist, Robert Acosta (ph) who put his own life in jeopardy to save his fellow soldiers. For all of us here, good night from New York. "ANDERSON COOPER 360" is next.
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