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Lou Dobbs Tonight
Violence in Iraq Escalates; Interview With Richard Perle; Interview With Senator Zell Miller
Aired November 10, 2003 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT for Monday, November 10. Here now, Lou Dobbs.
LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening.
Tonight: The violence in Iraq has escalated. Another soldier has been killed in action. And the top U.S. official in Iraq says attacks against Americans will be intensifying in the months ahead. Chris Plante will report from the Pentagon.
And could war against Saddam have been avoided? Former Pentagon adviser Richard Perle was approached by the Iraqis. He joins us tonight to tell us why those discussions were not pursued by the administration.
And Democrats in disarray. One of this country's most distinguished Democrats, Senator Zell Miller, accuses his party of chronic failures of leadership. Senate Miller is our guest.
And in our special report tonight, "Exporting America," corporate America is now shipping hundreds of thousands of jobs overseas, paying foreign workers pennies an hour. American workers are paying the price.
And the trade deficit with China will reach $130 billion this year. As many as two million Americans have lost their jobs to China. Commerce Secretary Don Evans will join me to tell us what the administration is doing to cut the deficit and to save jobs.
Tonight: U.S. officials are warning that radical Islamist terrorists may strike again in Saudi Arabia. Those officials say the weekend attack against a housing complex was almost certainly the work of al Qaeda. That attack killed at least 17 people and wounded more than 120 others in a mostly Arab neighborhood in Riyadh.
National security correspondent David Ensor reported on the likelihood of the violence that materialized in Saudi Arabia over the weekend. He joins us now with a report on the threat of more terrorism in Saudi Arabia -- David.
DAVID ENSOR, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Well, Lou, as you say, an ominous warning from U.S. and Saudi officials today that they expect additional attacks.
They believe that al Qaeda cells inside Saudi Arabia have gone to the operational phase. They expect to hear more explosions in the coming days. And they do believe that this is al Qaeda, both because of evidence that has been found, apparently, at the site of the bombing over the weekend, but also because of intelligence that has been being collected for weeks now that has suggested that al Qaeda wanted to stage a number of attacks in Saudi Arabia over the Ramadan period, which we're in right now.
Now, officials also point out that this latest attack comes after most of the U.S. troops that were based in Saudi Arabia have left. So they are noting that and saying, you can see from this that the attacks by al Qaeda are about going after the Saudi monarchy, not so much about getting foreigners out of the country, because most of them have actually already left.
Some officials are suggesting that this attack could backfire, given that so many of the people who were killed or injured in the attack were in fact Arabs, foreign Arabs from outside Saudi Arabia, five of them children, were killed. Those pictures are running on television around the Arab world. And some officials say that could actually hurt al Qaeda more than it helps it -- Lou.
DOBBS: David, the attacks over the weekend, there had been warnings through the intelligence agencies in the United States, Britain, Australia, and others for better than a month. Why were the Saudi authorities apparently unprepared for that attack?
ENSOR: They had hardened most of the targets that they suspected might be hit, targets having to do with the West, with the United States. Those had pretty good defenses.
This was a soft target, in the sense it was a housing complex most of whose residents are from Arab states. They're Lebanese or Syrian or other nations from the region. So it was a bit of a surprise that al Qaeda decided to attack it. And, as I mentioned, some officials think it may actually backfire for them -- Lou.
DOBBS: David, we can only hope. Thank you very much, David Ensor, our national security correspondent.
The coalition's top official in Iraq, Paul Bremer, today said hundreds of terrorists entered the country from Saudi Arabia and other nations. Bremer said terrorists are likely to increase their attacks against U.S. troops and Iraqis. And today, an American soldier was killed in action. Military commanders say they are raising their offensive operations against terrorist strongholds.
Pentagon correspondent Chris Plante has the report -- Chris.
CHRIS PLANTE, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Lou.
It is called Operation Ivy Cyclone. And it's being spearheaded by the 4th Infantry Division around Tikrit, which is Saddam Hussein's hometown. Over the weekend, the ground commander there operating with hundreds of U.S. troops, also involving in M-1 tanks, Bradley Fighting Vehicles, and Apache attack helicopters, called in airstrikes for first time in several months in Iraq. F-16s were called in both Friday night and Saturday morning to strike at what we were told are structures that were being used by anti-coalition forces.
We're told that this aggressive new approach is the beginning of a long effort to root out the anti-coalition elements in Tikrit, Fallujah and in parts of Baghdad. Also, parts of Mosul are being targeted in this latest round of attacks -- Lou.
DOBBS: Thank you very much, Chris Plante, from the Pentagon.
The Supreme Court today agreed to hear two appeals that could determine whether the United States is holding hundreds of terrorist suspects illegally in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. The appeals will give the Supreme Court its first opportunity to review one of the Bush administration's most sweeping anti-terrorism policies.
Bob Franken has the report from Washington -- Bob.
BOB FRANKEN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: And, Lou, as you pointed out, it's just one of the policies that is making its way through the court.
But this one is a very limited one. This is limited to the treatment of the detainees at Guantanamo Bay Naval Base, which, of course, is in Cuba. And the justices went to some pains to say that their arguments -- and when they combine two cases, one involving four nationals of the British Commonwealth countries and 12 from Kuwait, they said that the arguments would be limited, limited to a question about the jurisdiction of U.S. courts.
Specifically, the court said it would be limited to the following question, whether the United States courts lack jurisdiction to consider challenges to the integrity -- or, rather, to the legality of the detention of the people who are at Guantanamo Bay, foreign nationals captured abroad, in connection with hostilities and incarcerated at the Guantanamo Bay Naval Base in Cuba.
They are being that precise because lower courts have rejected the lawsuits filed by the people who are detainees there, saying that, because Guantanamo Bay is part of the sovereign territory of Cuba, even though the United States has occupied it for a century, even though the United States has had a Naval base there, the court's jurisdiction does not extend to a foreign country such as Cuba.
Therefore, U.S. courts have said, there could be no action taken. The U.S. Supreme Court, or at least four of the justices said, yes, they want to hear this case. Lou, it is important to point out that five of the justices would have to be ruling in this one way or the other to make up a majority -- Lou.
DOBBS: Bob, thank you -- Bob Franken reporting from Washington.
Coming up next here: As the war in Iraq intensifies, there are questions about whether the war against Saddam Hussein could have been avoided. Former Pentagon adviser Richard Perle is at the center of those questions. He will join us with some of the answers next.
And "Exporting America," our special report tonight -- what the so-called race to the bottom is costing American workers. Kitty Pilgrim reports.
And illegal aliens suing for their rights under the very system of law they violated. It seems unbelievable, but that's exactly what a group of illegal aliens is doing. Bill Tucker will have the report.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Tonight, we begin a new series of special reports on the loss of American jobs to overseas cheaper labor markets. We call this special report "Exporting America."
Over the past two years, more than two million Americans have lost their manufacturing jobs to a worker who is paid considerably less overseas. And you could be playing a role through the very clothes that you wear.
Kitty Pilgrim is here tonight and has the story for us -- Kitty.
KITTY PILGRIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, it is called the race to the bottom. There is competition to get the lowest prices for the products. But the American worker is the loser in this race.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM (voice-over): A Nike store in New York City; 99 percent of all Nike sneakers are made in Asia in factories like this one in China. At the Gap, 95 percent of products made in China and 50 other countries. All-American J. Crew? Not exactly: 80 percent made in Asia.
Wal-Mart, the largest retailer in the world and the largest importer of goods made from China, $12 billion worth a year. Retailers are buying more from overseas. And millions of U.S. manufacturing jobs have migrated to low-wage countries. American workers lose out.
BRUCE RAYNOR, PRESIDENT, UNITE: Manufacturing workers in this country, $14, $15, $16 an hour, with benefits, some of them more than that, they're not jobs you get rich. These are people that are making it to the lower-middle class. Those jobs are wiped out.
PILGRIM: Workers are cheaper overseas. The National Labor Committee has found, in some extreme cases, Chinese workers making just 3 cents an hour. A comparative retailing study by a private research group found U.S. workers making $8 an hour, while they were making $1.15 in the Dominican Republic, 85 cents in Mexico, 65 cents in Thailand, and 15 cents an hour in Indonesia.
CHARLES KERNAGHAN, NATIONAL LABOR COMMITTEE: It is true that we are engaged in this race to the bottom, where companies move production, like on a chess board, in search of the lowest wages. In the United States, workers are being pitted against desperately poor people in the developing world in this race to the bottom. PILGRIM: The profit is enormous. The markup on the product is exponential. The National Labor Committee found, a Nike T-shirt that cost $20 in the United States is made by workers in Honduras making 6 cents an hour. A Sean John long-sleeve T-shirt selling for $40 is made in Honduras by workers making 15 cents an hour.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: Now, the pressure has been on retailers to monitor working conditions. And many major retailers have joined the Fair Labor Association to work with the governments to improve working conditions abroad -- Lou.
DOBBS: Extraordinary. Kitty, thank you very much.
Tomorrow night here, in "Exporting America," we'll report on what is happening to workers left behind when their jobs are shipped overseas -- the story from Kannapolis, North Carolina; 4,000 workers, textile workers, have lost their jobs over the past summer. And they are now running out of hope.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BRENDA MILLER, LAID-OFF TEXTILE WORKER: I think the middle class is just being eliminated totally. And you're either going to be poor or you're going to have money. And that's really sad. We want someone to -- we just want anyone to stop and stand up and say, hey, this isn't right. And those people are far and few between.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: That story tomorrow night here in our special report, "Exporting America," and the toll it is taking on this country's working, hard-working, middle class. Please join us.
Coming up next: Containing illegal aliens is a job that begins at the borders, of course. And right now, smuggling immigrants across those borders is a booming business. Lisa Sylvester will report.
And we'll be joined by Senator Zell Miller and his take on the Democratic presidential hopefuls.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. ZELL MILLER (D), GEORGIA: They're sort of like pokers. They all sound alike, but they all have different names.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: Senator Zell Miller is a Democrat. He's our guest coming right up.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) DOBBS: While some American companies are exporting hundreds of thousands of jobs overseas, some are also hiring illegal aliens in this country. Today, nine illegal aliens who had worked as janitors at Wal-Mart sued the company in federal court for discrimination and back wages. Those workers were among 250 people arrested almost three weeks ago in an immigration raid on Wal-Mart stores nationwide.
Bill Tucker is here with the report -- Bill.
BILL TUCKER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, this is one of those stories that sounds like somebody made it up: illegal aliens suing Wal-Mart under the RICO statute, saying evidence of that violation is the evidence of their hiring.
It is believed to be the very first use of RICO in this way. And nine of those are also suing in New Jersey state court for unpaid back wages.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
TUCKER (voice-over): The lawyers are busy at Wal-Mart. They deny all claims for back pay claimed by nine illegal aliens who filed suit in New Jersey seeking overtime and vacation pay. And a spokesman for Wal-Mart says the federal suit against it has no merit and plans to move for a swift dismissal.
But attorneys for the plaintiffs argue a much bigger issue is at stake than simply their clients. They say this is a case about business practices that have harmed their clients and American business.
GILBERTO GARCIA, ATTORNEY: This is a case about ideology. This is a case about the people who are in the unemployment lines who should be in those positions and are not as a result of our unscrupulous employers who try to shield themselves from liability to save a buck and slave people who are undocumented.
TUCKER: Legally, the illegals claim they have standing because the National Labor Relations Act makes no distinction about a person's immigration status and the 1986 Immigration Reform and Control Act specifically allows any immigrant to pursue claims for back pay.
Some critics of immigration policy say the issues exposed in the Wal-Mart case should not come as a surprise.
CRAIG NELSON, FRIENDS FOR IMMIGRATION LAW ENFORCEMENT: Wal-Mart is a good example of what is wrong with putting our business -- putting selfish business interests in charge of our immigration policy.
TUCKER: In other words, they argue, what is good for the bottom line in the form of cheap labor is not always good for America.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
TUCKER: As for round two, it will be a while before this case proceeds. The attorney for the plaintiff expects it will be three to six months before Wal-Mart officially answers the two lawsuits, Lou.
DOBBS: Bill, thank you very much -- Bill Tucker.
There are an estimated 10 million illegal aliens in this country. Most of those illegal aliens enter the country with the help of others. The smuggling of illegal aliens is an industry that is becoming increasingly profitable and, for illegal aliens, increasingly dangerous.
Lisa Sylvester reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LISA SYLVESTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): They are called coyotes, the men and women who offer to sneak illegal aliens across the border. They used to charge $200 a person. But because of stepped-up border patrols, the cost has gone up as high as $2,000 a person. Illegal aliens eager to find jobs in the United States pay whatever is the going rate.
JOSEPH GREENE, IMMIGRATION AND CUSTOMS ENFORCEMENT: The market is becoming more lucrative. The competition for people coming into the United States has increased. And, therefore, the level of violence associated with control of the market has grown as well.
SYLVESTER: Last Tuesday, on Interstate 10 in Arizona, smugglers opened fire on a rival group. Four people were killed and five injured.
Migrant smuggling is beginning to look a lot like the drug trade, in part because some of the same people are involved. The result has been a hike in violence. Take Phoenix, Arizona, for instance. The murder rate is up 45 percent from a year ago. Also this year, there were more than 600 extortion, kidnapping and home-invasion cases, the vast majority related to human smuggling.
MICHAEL GARCIA, IMMIGRATION AND CUSTOMS ENFORCEMENT: With the rise of these organized criminal enterprises near Phoenix, you have seen an incredible rise in violence. Human smuggling organizations are targeting one another, with innocent civilians caught in the crossfire and paying a very high price.
SYLVESTER: In response, Immigration and Customs Enforcement announced it is setting up a national task force and establishing a most-wanted program to go after the biggest smugglers. But stopping the wave of illegal immigration may be tough, as long as the rewards outweigh the risks for the illegal aliens.
MARK KRIKORIAN, CENTER FOR IMMIGRATION STUDIES: We have virtually no enforcement of the immigration law inside the country. So what we're telling illegal aliens is, they need to run the gauntlet of the border. And, after that, they're home free.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SYLVESTER: For migrant smugglers, it is a risky business. But the trade is still attracting newcomers, particularly drug dealers, because the criminal penalties are lower and the payoffs continue to grow -- Lou.
DOBBS: Lisa, thank you -- Lisa Sylvester from Washington.
This brings us to our poll tonight. The question: Why do you think neither Republicans nor Democrats are taking a position on a national immigration policy? It is unimportant, it is too complicated, a lack of political courage on the part of our national elected officials? You can vote at our Web site, CNN.com/Lou. We'll have the results later in the show.
Coming up next: Did the United States miss an opportunity to avoid war against Saddam Hussein? Former Pentagon adviser Richard Perle has an insider's view on that question at which he is the center. He is our guest next.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Well, as the violence in Iraq is now escalating, some Democrats have accused the White House of being too quick to go to war against Saddam Hussein -- at issue, whether a last-minute offer from a top Iraqi official could have avoided war. That offer came through a Imad Hage, a Lebanese-American in contact with Hassan Obeidi, the chief of Iraqi foreign intelligence, details passed on to Richard Perle, the former chairman of the Defense Policy Advisory Board, in early March.
Richard Perle joins me now.
RICHARD PERLE, FORMER ASSISTANT DEFENSE SECRETARY: Good to see you, Lou.
DOBBS: This is -- the central issue is, this offer, in your judgment, was not real?
PERLE: I don't think it was real.
When they made the approach, it was with the suggestion that Saddam would hold free elections, that he would make any concessions we desired with respect to oil. And it looked very much as if this was a trap. If we had...
DOBBS: How would it be a trap?
PERLE: Well, suppose we had entered in a discussion with an Iraqi thug -- this was one of the people closest to Saddam Hussein -- and the subject had been oil concessions to the United States, at a time when we were being accused of going after oil in Iraq.
DOBBS: Right.
PERLE: And they then revealed secret discussions to that effect? It did not look like a serious initiative. It was analyzed. It was assessed. And there were many other channels. There were messages coming from all over the place.
DOBBS: But this from a senior person in Saddam Hussein's apparatus, one or two -- No. 1 or 2 in the intelligence service. You took the offer, the offer for discussion, to the administration, did you not?
PERLE: I did.
It seemed to me, the responsible thing to do was to let experts analyze it in an appropriate manner. And I think the conclusion they came to was that this was an individual who had attempted to contact us through other channels. There were a number of governments at that moment trying to broker some sort of deal, the Russians, the French, the Egyptians, the Saudis. There were dozens of gestures of this sort. And a judgment had to be made as to what was serious and what wasn't.
DOBBS: And how long did it take for the CIA to make that assessment?
PERLE: Just a few days.
DOBBS: And, as you look back on it, any second thoughts?
PERLE: No. I don't think this war could have been avoided. Saddam Hussein probably didn't believe it was actually going to happen. And there were a lot of inconsistencies of that nature.
DOBBS: It is striking, though, just in retrospect, that the head of the Iraqi intelligence understood, obviously, clearly enough that it would happen, yet that was not communicated, again, ostensibly, to Saddam Hussein. What do you make of that?
PERLE: Well, it could be that this Iraqi intelligence officer was simply attempting to draw the United States into a dialogue that would discredit us, raise questions about our motives. I think that's what happened, although we'll never know. He is still at large, by the way, until we...
DOBBS: Well, supposedly, in the Sunni Triangle. At least, that is one of the conjectures.
Within 48 hours of the launching of hostilities against Saddam Hussein's Iraq, there were entreaties, offers, to broker a last-minute deal. Did any of those offers from the administration, to your knowledge, go through Obeidi?
PERLE: I don't know. I don't have any knowledge of that.
But every run-up to a conflict like this has had last-minute offers, flurries of activities. It happened before the first Gulf War in 1991. No one should be surprised.
DOBBS: We're looking at here Baghdad on March 21, if you will, the Shock and Awe, which is a hollow-sounding expression now, in retrospect, given all that has ensued since. There is no question, is there, in your mind, that the post- Saddam Iraq mission has been badly botched by this administration and this government?
PERLE: I wouldn't go that far.
There are problems, to be sure. I think they're being solved. We're learning. We don't have a lot of experience getting into a situation like this. And we have had to adjust, as we have discovered how it is evolving. I think we're doing a credible job. And most of the country is relatively free of violence.
DOBBS: Well, the Sunni Triangle certainly is not. From Mosul, from Tikrit, throughout all of Baghdad and the areas and environs beyond, roughly a third of the population is certainly not secure. And one could argue even broader it is not. And Americans -- the attacks against Americans and American interests have tripled over the course of the last month.
PERLE: But we are beginning now to get a serious flow of intelligence that permits us to deal, in many cases, before attacks can take place. And, look...
DOBBS: So you're suggesting the number of attacks would be even greater if we did not have better intelligence?
PERLE: Well, the intelligence that we're getting is permitting us to go after the ringleaders.
Look, you had car bombs in Saudi Arabia. There was no war in Saudi Arabia. It's pretty much a police state. Fanatics are capable of inflicting damage. There's no doubt about that. This is part of the war on terror. And the combination of people who have nowhere to go, Saddam's loyalists, and terrorists coming in from outside to take a stand in their holy war, it's a -- it's a combination that it's taking us some time to deal with. But we are dealing with it.
DOBBS: Is one of those given credit as an architect of the war against Saddam, what do you make of the judgment by this Pentagon and Donald Rumsfeld and the general staff that no further U.S. troops are needed when we have seen attacks escalate, when Ambassador Paul Bremer tells us that intelligence suggests that the number of terrorist attacks, insurgent attacks, whether from Ba'athists or from foreign terrorists, will escalate in the months ahead? That defies common sense.
PERLE: It appears to be inconsistent. But the real issue is what do we need to cope with the situation in Iraq? Do we need more Americans or do we need to organize the Iraqis differently? And I don't think we need more Americans. I think more Americans, in the sense, expose more Americans to danger.
The Iraqis have to take responsibility for their own security. Their the principal victims. Iraqis are dying in large numbers from the same bombs that are intended to drive us from Iraq. DOBBS: There is every indication on the part of the administration now that the Iraqi governing council is perhaps about to be reconfigured or replaced. Just exactly who will be the Iraqis to whom we would turn for both solace and guidance of their own people?
PERLE: Well, the leaders who now form the Iraqi governing council are leaders from the north and the south of the country, widely respected in their own communities. Ahmed Chalabi, who for years fought to mobilize the removal of Saddam Hussein.
I don't think they're going to be replaced. I think they're going to assume greater responsibility. I don't think they've been given enough responsibility, frankly. And we can't expect them to perform if we don't give them scope to perform.
DOBBS: And we cannot give them scope, can we?
PERLE: Sure we can.
DOBBS: If we do not -- if we're incapable of providing security for our own forces?
PERLE: Well, they can do a great deal to provide security for themselves and to stabilize the security situation to our benefit. And you're going to see that happen over the next weeks and months.
DOBBS: How soon? We have Ambassador Bremer's judgment. How about your judgment as to when these attacks against American interests will decline and when the United States will be taking fewer casualties amongst its military in Iraq?
PERLE: Well, I think we're making progress now, although last week was obviously a horrible week. And no one can rule out the car bomb that kills large numbers of people or the helicopter that has brought down. But...
DOBBS: As it turns out, by a surface-to-air missile.
PERLE: Most of the attacks have, in fact, been smaller in scope.
DOBBS: If this pace of attack, at this level, continues against U.S. forces, how long would you be prepared to accept these casualties before calling for a significant increase in force level?
PERLE: Well, if I thought an increase would solve the problem, I would be in favor of an increase now.
DOBBS: I understand.
PERLE: What I think we need to do is accelerate the handover of security responsibility to the Iraqis. It's under way now. We're training people.
I think some of our early ambitions for the training of Iraqis were probably unnecessarily large. There are 30-day wonders in a case like this, people who are trained quickly and in the field quickly.
DOBBS: And mission accomplished much too premature?
PERLE: Well, the military phase of the war is, the more or less conventional war was a mission accomplished. Clearly, we have not yet brought Iraq to the place we hope to bring it, and the place that Iraqis want it to be, which is a decent future.
DOBBS: Richard Perle, as always, good to have you with us.
PERLE: Thank you.
DOBBS: Tonight's quote is a somewhat different take on Iraq and the media's view of what is newsworthy in that country and elsewhere and its context. We -- quote -- "Last month, 36 servicemen were killed in Iraq and I was the top story on the news for the last week. What is wrong with that picture?" That quote from Rosie O'Donnell on the media focus on her breach of contract suit with her former magazine.We would also add that's the first you've heard of that case on this broadcast.
Coming up next, President Bush defends free trade. Suzanne Malveaux will report from the White House.
And Commerce Secretary Don Evans has a warning for China: America's patience is wearing thin when it comes to unfair trade. Commerce Secretary Don Evans is our guest next.
Please stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: President Bush today said free trade creates jobs in the United States. President Bush delivered the message at a German auto plant in South Carolina, a state that's lost tens of thousands of textile jobs to foreign countries.
White House correspondent Suzanne Malveaux is traveling with the president and reports tonight from Greer, South Carolina -- Suzanne.
SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Lou, President Bush raised more than $2 million for his re-election campaign. He also squeezed in a roundtable discussion on the economy, this time at a BMW plant here in Greer, South Carolina. That's where he was focusing on expanding free trade as well as opening markets. The president making the case it will strengthen the economy. Just take a look at BMW that employs here 5,000 workers. It's partnered with an American steel company that also employs some 12,000 local workers, making the case that open and free markets is good all around.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: You hear this -- a lot of talk about trade. You're living the trade world. And if we do a good job about making sure trade is free and fair, people are going to find work here in America. That's what this is all about. In other words, we welcome people coming here. We welcome their money. I know the workers welcome the chance to work and we're good about it. We're good at workers. And that's what this plant shows.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MALVEAUX: Now, Lou this message comes at a important time for the administration. The World Trade Organization ruled illegal the tariffs put on trade imports that the U.S. has imposed. The U.S. says that it needs this to protect the domestic steel industry to be competitive while it is undergoing some reconstruction. But the WTO is saying that it breaks the rules.
Now the president has to face a rather critical decision whether or not to abandon the tariffs or perhaps face $2.2 billion in sanctions for the European Union. The European Union, some members saying they will target goods that are produced in states that are critical to the president's re-election -- Lou.
DOBBS: Suzanne, thanks. Suzanne Malveaux reporting from Greer, South Carolina.
The issue of free and fair trade is sparking another round of debate in American politics. The United States faces an economic recovery without strong job creation while running a record trade deficit.
Some Republican and Democratic lawmakers are blasting China for its trade practices. My guest tonight says America's patience is wearing thin and he has warned Beijing that time is running out.
Commerce Secretary Don Evans joins us now.
Mr. Secretary, good to have you with us.
DON EVANS, COMMERCE SECRETARY: Thank you, Lou. Great to be with you again.
DOBBS: This deficit is going reach probably $130 billion this year. It has been a deficit for the past seven years. It gets worse and worse. What are you going to do about it?
EVANS: Well, Lou, I went to China, as you mentioned, just the last couple of weeks. In fact, I would say that Secretary Snow is in China, Ambassador Zellic was in China. The president met with President Hu not too long ago talking about this very issue.
I delivered a very strong message to them that -- that -- Look, we love competition in America. We're the best competitors in the world. But we're going demand a level of playing field. We're going to demand that our competitors and our workers here in America are on the same -- are on a level playing field with everybody else in the world.
And what I talked about when I was in China was their lack of enforcement of intellectual property rights. What I talked about in China was a continuing subsidies that enterprises receive from state- owned banks. What I talked about in China were -- were nonperforming loans in their banks, some of the official numbers, 30 percent. I think it is probably closer to 50 percent. And what I talked about in China was the importance of them continuing to pick up the pace of meeting their WTO obligations and opening up their markets to American workers and American products.
DOBBS: Technology, aerospace amongst our chief exports to China. Again, $130 billion deficit. Jobs are also a leading export from this country to China, a country that has to produce somewhere between eight million and 10 million jobs a year just to maintain pace with its population growth. How long can we sustain this?
EVANS: Well, Lou, I think it is important to always point out how dynamic our own economy is and how many jobs we're creating in the American economy. You know, people when they see the unemployment numbers don't realize that our economy creates about eight million jobs a quarter. And so there is eight million new jobs out there every quarter for American workers.
Do we lose jobs? Yes, indeed we do. And the key is to always have a net increase of job gains, but we have an incredibly dynamic economy. As I travel the world, the world marvels at our ability to create new jobs in this country. Over the last 20 years, we've created some 40 million new net jobs. To give you the example over the last 10 years, we created about 342 million new jobs. We lost 324 million jobs, for a net gain of 18 million jobs. So we have got a -- we have got a job-creating economy here in America.
DOBBS: Mr. Secretary, did I just hear you take credit for job growth during the Clinton administration?
EVANS: Well, no, I took credit for it during the Reagan and the 1990s. What I said was in -- over the last 20 years, we've created some 40 million new jobs in this economy. That would be the Reagan, that would be Bush, that would be Clinton...
DOBBS: I think that is -- I have to say, Mr. Secretary, my compliments. That is one of the more intriguing constructions of job creation, and you're exactly right. And I admire the bipartisan approach to job creation.
In point of fact, in this country, though, we have to, as you suggest, 150,000 jobs have to be created every month to maintain pace with our population growth. We approached that in the most recent month reported, 7.2 percent GDP growth. If this economy can maintain that, it is going to be a very happy time.
We do have some significant issues. Amongst them, high value jobs being exported overseas, outsourced by corporate America. The numbers, according to the most recent University of California survey, 14 million jobs at risk. This is not the free trade world that most people were talking about a decade ago, is it?
EVANS: Well, you know, Lou, this is a more integrated economy, more interlinked, more network economy that anybody thought imaginable even 10 years ago. But CEA just had a report that I looked at that said when our imports increase in a sector of our economy, jobs also increase in that sector of our economy. And it's because how integrated and interlinked this global economy is becoming.
And Lou, I think it is very important for everybody to realize that this is not a zero-sum gain in the global economy. This is a win-win when you see jobs created in other parts of the world. It really has a very positive impact on the American economy.
So it's a matter of growing the pie, growing the global economy, lifting standard of living for everybody around the world, including right here in America.
If you look at what real disposable income has been doing in this economy over the last three years, I would say, during President Bush's administration, real disposable income has been increasing at 3.4 percent. So the standard of living has been increasing in this American economy. I think it will continue to. But we shouldn't think about it as a zero-sum gain.
DOBBS: Mr. Secretary, I assure you I'm not thinking of it as a zero-sum gain, I'm thinking of it in terms of $503 billion current account deficit the last year, about $2.5 trillion sitting out there of potential foreign ownership of assets of this country, 14 million jobs that are vulnerable to outsourcing. And the significant exportation of high-value jobs, which just raises a host of issues. I understand your perspective, but would you not concede that the issues are so complex and so important that we have got to evaluate those very real threats?
EVANS: Lou, what I would say it is very, very important for us to continue to create the environment for competition. I think competition is the key to continuing to grow our economy and the global economy. Competition on a level playing field, because what competition does is it leads to innovation, which leads to higher productivity, which leads to economic growth, and which leads to higher standard of living. I think that's exactly what is happening in the American economy. I think we'll see it happening in the global economy.
DOBBS: Mr. Secretary, I'm with you all the way as long as competition, efficiency and productivity don't become code words for cheaper labor. You don't mean that?
EVANS: No, you know, Lou, you know, look, I think it's very, very important, as I did in China, continue to press the issue to the world that we love to compete, but it's going to be on a level playing field. We're all going to play by the same rules.
DOBBS: Commerce Secretary Don Evans, we appreciate your time. And appreciate you...
EVANS: Sure, Lou, good to be with you.
DOBBS: ... getting tough. Thank you.
EVANS: Thank you, Lou.
DOBBS: Coming up next, Democratic Senator Zell Miller will be with us. He says his own party's candidates for the presidency are like polkas, all the same. Senator Miller joins us next. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Senator Zell Miller is one of the most distinguished Democrats in Washington. He says, however, he plans to vote for President Bush in 2004. His new book is entitled "A National Party No More." I talked with Senator Miller earlier and asked him why he can't support any of the nine Democratic candidates for his party's nomination.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SEN. ZELL MILLER (D), GEORGIA: Well, because they have all adopted the same issues. They're sort of like polkas. They all sound alike, but they all have different names. I mean, look, they have all adopted the worst single feature of the McGovern campaign, that is cut and run and come back home. And they've adopted the worst single feature of a Mondale campaign, raise taxes.
McGovern carried one state in '72. Mondale carried one state in '84. What kind of formula or plan for victory is that?
DOBBS: Has any one of these nine candidates called Senator Zell Miller, one of the most respected men in Congress, and said, Senator, have you got some counsel for me, some advice?
MILLER: Not on anything like this. I talked to some of the candidates earlier on in the campaign. And to tell you the truth, I thought some of them were headed I thought in the right direction. But you see right now what they're doing is, they're not exactly running for president. They're running to get the nomination. And when you run to get the nomination, you run to the furtherest (sic) you can run to the left, because you've got get that extreme group that makes up that small percentage of a shrinking party.
DOBBS: The subtitle of why of your book is "the Conscience of a Conservative Democrat." And there are many people in this country, younger people, who think that is a complete contradiction in terms. And I can remember when there was a vivid and vigorous conservative wing to the Democratic party. Is there any possibility that that could come back to the Democratic party?
MILLER: Well, I got into politics and ran for the state Senate in 1960, the year that John Kennedy was elected. And John Kennedy in 1960 carried Georgia and North Carolina and South Carolina and many southern states as well as the states of New England. In fact, he carried Georgia by a larger percentage than he carried Massachusetts.
How did he do that? He did that by being a centrist. Eleanor Roosevelt wouldn't support him because he was a centrist. But he wanted to cut taxes, which he did later on. And he stood up to Nixon in those debates. He came across much stronger than Nixon did on national consequence.
That's the formula that will work today. Whenever you talk about that to a Democrat, they say you're talking about Republican light. You're talking about Bush light. No, you're talking about where the people are. That's where they were in 1960. That's where they were in 2000. That's where they are today.
DOBBS: The people, the hard-working middle class American today, as you know, Senator is being squeezed from every direction. This goes beyond macroeconomics GDP reports and a Labor Department reports. The middle class in this country is under attack. Is it your judgment that either party is doing enough to help to guide and to represent hard-working middle class Americans right now?
MILLER: Well, I think they would like to. I think that they would like to, but you see the Democrats right now are pulled so far to the left by these narrow special interest groups that have their own agenda, that they put in front of the total sum of the party, and it is taking them in a direction where they cannot do that.
These people want to keep more of their money instead of sending it to the government for taxes. These people want to have a better education program. These people want to have a prescription drug benefit. These people want to have -- make sure that our country is safe and secure from terrorism. That's what they want. Whether they're middle class or almost any class, but certainly the middle class feels that way.
DOBBS: Well, senator, you have a prescription for the Democratic party for the country?
MILLER: Well as I say, the true and tested battle plan that worked in 1960 and would work again was what John Kennedy came up with. And that was, let's leave more money in the pockets of the taxpayers and let's make sure that we have a very, very strong national defense. We must keep this nation secure. And he did. He cut taxes. And he stood up to the Communists and stood up to Russia.
DOBBS: Senator Zell Miller, we're going miss you in politics. We're delighted you've written this very informative book "A National Party No More." And all the best to you. Hope we can talk soon.
MILLER: Thank you very much.
DOBBS: Coming up next, we'll look at one company and what it received in exchange for paying its executives tens of millions of dollars. It wasn't a bargain, we'll tell you that much. Christine Romans is next. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: The results of our poll tonight. The question, "why do you think neither Republicans nor Democrats are taking a position on a national immigration policy?" 4 percent of your said because it's unimportant, 6 percent said it's too complicated, 90 percent said they have a lack of political courage. On Washington, stocks opened often Wall Street with losses, the Dow down 53 points, the Nasdaq down 29, the S&P 500 down 6. More fallout today in the mutual fund deal. A mess, I think that is the word I would be looking for there -- Christine Romans.
CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN FINANCIAL CORRESPONDENT: Two more senior executives shown the door in the mutual fund scandal. These 2 are from Alliance Capital. Alliance canned John Carifa, the former CEO and Michael Laughlin a mutual funds executive there. Carifa made at least $3.2 million last year, 10's of millions of dollars in salary and bonus during the 1990's.
You know, the supporters of multimillion dollar executive pay packages argue that's the kind of money you need to keep the best and the brightest. So, in this case, what does tens of millions of dollars get you? It is numerous investigations into market timing, likely criminal and civil charges and an undetermined amount of payback to investors, not to mention concerns about outflows from the mutual funds.
And don't expect Alliance or Putnam, which also ousted its former CEO, to publicly chastise their well paid fallen stars. Both took pains to thank them for their fine service over the years in their press releases when they announced their resignations.
DOBBS: Seems like a quite adequate expression of gratitude in their salaries. Christine, thanks; Christine Romans.
Taking a look now at your thoughts. A number of you wrote in about my interview Secretary of Labor Elaine Chao. Many surprised to learn that the secretary of labor didn't know how many foreign workers, H1-B and L1 visa holders are in this country right now.
From Scottsdale, Arizona "if our Secretary of Labor doesn't have the numbers you asked her tonight, then who in this administration does?' Cheryl, sadly no one. Not in the Labor Department, Commerce or Homeland Security Departments has any idea. That's one of the problems.
And from Richmond, Virginia, "If you speak to Labor Department Secretary Chao again, tell her there's only 1 H1-B holder I'm concerned with. It's the guy who's sitting in my old cubicle at my old computer making $25,000 less than I used to make, with no benefits. Tell her that my country sold me out." That from Mark Williamson.
From Rochester, New York, "Lou, I would of found Elaine Chao's comments about job recovery almost laughable, if my son, along with thousands, had not lost their jobs 2 weeks ago because of outsourcing to China. Instead of spinning numbers, they should work on a solution." That from Sandy Potter.
From Salinas, California, about the illegal aliens suing Wal- Mart, "It is truly ironic that people who break out laws to enter our country to take the benefits of law abiding citizens and immigrants now seek the very protections meant to protect immigrants." That from Terry.
From Las Vegas, "Lou, your show last Friday was the best ever. Every subject covered was what Americans should be thinking about and trying to fix. Your comments on illegal immigration were right on the mark and very brave. I too am for legal immigration, but against this free for all that goes on on our southern border. An endless wave of millions of illegals will bring this nation to a 3rd world status in a generation." That from David Mills
From Beaumont, California, "I would just like to thank you for providing a news hour dedicated to the news that really matters, not celebrity news. I'm in high school and I'm very interested in politics and economics and its beneficial to me to have a show that's objective and informative." That from James Love. Well, James, we wish you the very best and we thank you for your kind thoughts.
Send us what you're thinking about. Send it to loudobbs@CNN.com. That's our show for tonight. Thank you for being with us. Join us tomorrow as we continue our series of special reports, "Exporting America." We take a look at what happens to Americans whose jobs have been shipped overseas.
For all of us here, good night from New York. "ANDERSON COOPER 360" is next.
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Interview With Senator Zell Miller>
Aired November 10, 2003 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT for Monday, November 10. Here now, Lou Dobbs.
LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening.
Tonight: The violence in Iraq has escalated. Another soldier has been killed in action. And the top U.S. official in Iraq says attacks against Americans will be intensifying in the months ahead. Chris Plante will report from the Pentagon.
And could war against Saddam have been avoided? Former Pentagon adviser Richard Perle was approached by the Iraqis. He joins us tonight to tell us why those discussions were not pursued by the administration.
And Democrats in disarray. One of this country's most distinguished Democrats, Senator Zell Miller, accuses his party of chronic failures of leadership. Senate Miller is our guest.
And in our special report tonight, "Exporting America," corporate America is now shipping hundreds of thousands of jobs overseas, paying foreign workers pennies an hour. American workers are paying the price.
And the trade deficit with China will reach $130 billion this year. As many as two million Americans have lost their jobs to China. Commerce Secretary Don Evans will join me to tell us what the administration is doing to cut the deficit and to save jobs.
Tonight: U.S. officials are warning that radical Islamist terrorists may strike again in Saudi Arabia. Those officials say the weekend attack against a housing complex was almost certainly the work of al Qaeda. That attack killed at least 17 people and wounded more than 120 others in a mostly Arab neighborhood in Riyadh.
National security correspondent David Ensor reported on the likelihood of the violence that materialized in Saudi Arabia over the weekend. He joins us now with a report on the threat of more terrorism in Saudi Arabia -- David.
DAVID ENSOR, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Well, Lou, as you say, an ominous warning from U.S. and Saudi officials today that they expect additional attacks.
They believe that al Qaeda cells inside Saudi Arabia have gone to the operational phase. They expect to hear more explosions in the coming days. And they do believe that this is al Qaeda, both because of evidence that has been found, apparently, at the site of the bombing over the weekend, but also because of intelligence that has been being collected for weeks now that has suggested that al Qaeda wanted to stage a number of attacks in Saudi Arabia over the Ramadan period, which we're in right now.
Now, officials also point out that this latest attack comes after most of the U.S. troops that were based in Saudi Arabia have left. So they are noting that and saying, you can see from this that the attacks by al Qaeda are about going after the Saudi monarchy, not so much about getting foreigners out of the country, because most of them have actually already left.
Some officials are suggesting that this attack could backfire, given that so many of the people who were killed or injured in the attack were in fact Arabs, foreign Arabs from outside Saudi Arabia, five of them children, were killed. Those pictures are running on television around the Arab world. And some officials say that could actually hurt al Qaeda more than it helps it -- Lou.
DOBBS: David, the attacks over the weekend, there had been warnings through the intelligence agencies in the United States, Britain, Australia, and others for better than a month. Why were the Saudi authorities apparently unprepared for that attack?
ENSOR: They had hardened most of the targets that they suspected might be hit, targets having to do with the West, with the United States. Those had pretty good defenses.
This was a soft target, in the sense it was a housing complex most of whose residents are from Arab states. They're Lebanese or Syrian or other nations from the region. So it was a bit of a surprise that al Qaeda decided to attack it. And, as I mentioned, some officials think it may actually backfire for them -- Lou.
DOBBS: David, we can only hope. Thank you very much, David Ensor, our national security correspondent.
The coalition's top official in Iraq, Paul Bremer, today said hundreds of terrorists entered the country from Saudi Arabia and other nations. Bremer said terrorists are likely to increase their attacks against U.S. troops and Iraqis. And today, an American soldier was killed in action. Military commanders say they are raising their offensive operations against terrorist strongholds.
Pentagon correspondent Chris Plante has the report -- Chris.
CHRIS PLANTE, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Lou.
It is called Operation Ivy Cyclone. And it's being spearheaded by the 4th Infantry Division around Tikrit, which is Saddam Hussein's hometown. Over the weekend, the ground commander there operating with hundreds of U.S. troops, also involving in M-1 tanks, Bradley Fighting Vehicles, and Apache attack helicopters, called in airstrikes for first time in several months in Iraq. F-16s were called in both Friday night and Saturday morning to strike at what we were told are structures that were being used by anti-coalition forces.
We're told that this aggressive new approach is the beginning of a long effort to root out the anti-coalition elements in Tikrit, Fallujah and in parts of Baghdad. Also, parts of Mosul are being targeted in this latest round of attacks -- Lou.
DOBBS: Thank you very much, Chris Plante, from the Pentagon.
The Supreme Court today agreed to hear two appeals that could determine whether the United States is holding hundreds of terrorist suspects illegally in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. The appeals will give the Supreme Court its first opportunity to review one of the Bush administration's most sweeping anti-terrorism policies.
Bob Franken has the report from Washington -- Bob.
BOB FRANKEN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: And, Lou, as you pointed out, it's just one of the policies that is making its way through the court.
But this one is a very limited one. This is limited to the treatment of the detainees at Guantanamo Bay Naval Base, which, of course, is in Cuba. And the justices went to some pains to say that their arguments -- and when they combine two cases, one involving four nationals of the British Commonwealth countries and 12 from Kuwait, they said that the arguments would be limited, limited to a question about the jurisdiction of U.S. courts.
Specifically, the court said it would be limited to the following question, whether the United States courts lack jurisdiction to consider challenges to the integrity -- or, rather, to the legality of the detention of the people who are at Guantanamo Bay, foreign nationals captured abroad, in connection with hostilities and incarcerated at the Guantanamo Bay Naval Base in Cuba.
They are being that precise because lower courts have rejected the lawsuits filed by the people who are detainees there, saying that, because Guantanamo Bay is part of the sovereign territory of Cuba, even though the United States has occupied it for a century, even though the United States has had a Naval base there, the court's jurisdiction does not extend to a foreign country such as Cuba.
Therefore, U.S. courts have said, there could be no action taken. The U.S. Supreme Court, or at least four of the justices said, yes, they want to hear this case. Lou, it is important to point out that five of the justices would have to be ruling in this one way or the other to make up a majority -- Lou.
DOBBS: Bob, thank you -- Bob Franken reporting from Washington.
Coming up next here: As the war in Iraq intensifies, there are questions about whether the war against Saddam Hussein could have been avoided. Former Pentagon adviser Richard Perle is at the center of those questions. He will join us with some of the answers next.
And "Exporting America," our special report tonight -- what the so-called race to the bottom is costing American workers. Kitty Pilgrim reports.
And illegal aliens suing for their rights under the very system of law they violated. It seems unbelievable, but that's exactly what a group of illegal aliens is doing. Bill Tucker will have the report.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Tonight, we begin a new series of special reports on the loss of American jobs to overseas cheaper labor markets. We call this special report "Exporting America."
Over the past two years, more than two million Americans have lost their manufacturing jobs to a worker who is paid considerably less overseas. And you could be playing a role through the very clothes that you wear.
Kitty Pilgrim is here tonight and has the story for us -- Kitty.
KITTY PILGRIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, it is called the race to the bottom. There is competition to get the lowest prices for the products. But the American worker is the loser in this race.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM (voice-over): A Nike store in New York City; 99 percent of all Nike sneakers are made in Asia in factories like this one in China. At the Gap, 95 percent of products made in China and 50 other countries. All-American J. Crew? Not exactly: 80 percent made in Asia.
Wal-Mart, the largest retailer in the world and the largest importer of goods made from China, $12 billion worth a year. Retailers are buying more from overseas. And millions of U.S. manufacturing jobs have migrated to low-wage countries. American workers lose out.
BRUCE RAYNOR, PRESIDENT, UNITE: Manufacturing workers in this country, $14, $15, $16 an hour, with benefits, some of them more than that, they're not jobs you get rich. These are people that are making it to the lower-middle class. Those jobs are wiped out.
PILGRIM: Workers are cheaper overseas. The National Labor Committee has found, in some extreme cases, Chinese workers making just 3 cents an hour. A comparative retailing study by a private research group found U.S. workers making $8 an hour, while they were making $1.15 in the Dominican Republic, 85 cents in Mexico, 65 cents in Thailand, and 15 cents an hour in Indonesia.
CHARLES KERNAGHAN, NATIONAL LABOR COMMITTEE: It is true that we are engaged in this race to the bottom, where companies move production, like on a chess board, in search of the lowest wages. In the United States, workers are being pitted against desperately poor people in the developing world in this race to the bottom. PILGRIM: The profit is enormous. The markup on the product is exponential. The National Labor Committee found, a Nike T-shirt that cost $20 in the United States is made by workers in Honduras making 6 cents an hour. A Sean John long-sleeve T-shirt selling for $40 is made in Honduras by workers making 15 cents an hour.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: Now, the pressure has been on retailers to monitor working conditions. And many major retailers have joined the Fair Labor Association to work with the governments to improve working conditions abroad -- Lou.
DOBBS: Extraordinary. Kitty, thank you very much.
Tomorrow night here, in "Exporting America," we'll report on what is happening to workers left behind when their jobs are shipped overseas -- the story from Kannapolis, North Carolina; 4,000 workers, textile workers, have lost their jobs over the past summer. And they are now running out of hope.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BRENDA MILLER, LAID-OFF TEXTILE WORKER: I think the middle class is just being eliminated totally. And you're either going to be poor or you're going to have money. And that's really sad. We want someone to -- we just want anyone to stop and stand up and say, hey, this isn't right. And those people are far and few between.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: That story tomorrow night here in our special report, "Exporting America," and the toll it is taking on this country's working, hard-working, middle class. Please join us.
Coming up next: Containing illegal aliens is a job that begins at the borders, of course. And right now, smuggling immigrants across those borders is a booming business. Lisa Sylvester will report.
And we'll be joined by Senator Zell Miller and his take on the Democratic presidential hopefuls.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. ZELL MILLER (D), GEORGIA: They're sort of like pokers. They all sound alike, but they all have different names.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: Senator Zell Miller is a Democrat. He's our guest coming right up.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) DOBBS: While some American companies are exporting hundreds of thousands of jobs overseas, some are also hiring illegal aliens in this country. Today, nine illegal aliens who had worked as janitors at Wal-Mart sued the company in federal court for discrimination and back wages. Those workers were among 250 people arrested almost three weeks ago in an immigration raid on Wal-Mart stores nationwide.
Bill Tucker is here with the report -- Bill.
BILL TUCKER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, this is one of those stories that sounds like somebody made it up: illegal aliens suing Wal-Mart under the RICO statute, saying evidence of that violation is the evidence of their hiring.
It is believed to be the very first use of RICO in this way. And nine of those are also suing in New Jersey state court for unpaid back wages.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
TUCKER (voice-over): The lawyers are busy at Wal-Mart. They deny all claims for back pay claimed by nine illegal aliens who filed suit in New Jersey seeking overtime and vacation pay. And a spokesman for Wal-Mart says the federal suit against it has no merit and plans to move for a swift dismissal.
But attorneys for the plaintiffs argue a much bigger issue is at stake than simply their clients. They say this is a case about business practices that have harmed their clients and American business.
GILBERTO GARCIA, ATTORNEY: This is a case about ideology. This is a case about the people who are in the unemployment lines who should be in those positions and are not as a result of our unscrupulous employers who try to shield themselves from liability to save a buck and slave people who are undocumented.
TUCKER: Legally, the illegals claim they have standing because the National Labor Relations Act makes no distinction about a person's immigration status and the 1986 Immigration Reform and Control Act specifically allows any immigrant to pursue claims for back pay.
Some critics of immigration policy say the issues exposed in the Wal-Mart case should not come as a surprise.
CRAIG NELSON, FRIENDS FOR IMMIGRATION LAW ENFORCEMENT: Wal-Mart is a good example of what is wrong with putting our business -- putting selfish business interests in charge of our immigration policy.
TUCKER: In other words, they argue, what is good for the bottom line in the form of cheap labor is not always good for America.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
TUCKER: As for round two, it will be a while before this case proceeds. The attorney for the plaintiff expects it will be three to six months before Wal-Mart officially answers the two lawsuits, Lou.
DOBBS: Bill, thank you very much -- Bill Tucker.
There are an estimated 10 million illegal aliens in this country. Most of those illegal aliens enter the country with the help of others. The smuggling of illegal aliens is an industry that is becoming increasingly profitable and, for illegal aliens, increasingly dangerous.
Lisa Sylvester reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LISA SYLVESTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): They are called coyotes, the men and women who offer to sneak illegal aliens across the border. They used to charge $200 a person. But because of stepped-up border patrols, the cost has gone up as high as $2,000 a person. Illegal aliens eager to find jobs in the United States pay whatever is the going rate.
JOSEPH GREENE, IMMIGRATION AND CUSTOMS ENFORCEMENT: The market is becoming more lucrative. The competition for people coming into the United States has increased. And, therefore, the level of violence associated with control of the market has grown as well.
SYLVESTER: Last Tuesday, on Interstate 10 in Arizona, smugglers opened fire on a rival group. Four people were killed and five injured.
Migrant smuggling is beginning to look a lot like the drug trade, in part because some of the same people are involved. The result has been a hike in violence. Take Phoenix, Arizona, for instance. The murder rate is up 45 percent from a year ago. Also this year, there were more than 600 extortion, kidnapping and home-invasion cases, the vast majority related to human smuggling.
MICHAEL GARCIA, IMMIGRATION AND CUSTOMS ENFORCEMENT: With the rise of these organized criminal enterprises near Phoenix, you have seen an incredible rise in violence. Human smuggling organizations are targeting one another, with innocent civilians caught in the crossfire and paying a very high price.
SYLVESTER: In response, Immigration and Customs Enforcement announced it is setting up a national task force and establishing a most-wanted program to go after the biggest smugglers. But stopping the wave of illegal immigration may be tough, as long as the rewards outweigh the risks for the illegal aliens.
MARK KRIKORIAN, CENTER FOR IMMIGRATION STUDIES: We have virtually no enforcement of the immigration law inside the country. So what we're telling illegal aliens is, they need to run the gauntlet of the border. And, after that, they're home free.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SYLVESTER: For migrant smugglers, it is a risky business. But the trade is still attracting newcomers, particularly drug dealers, because the criminal penalties are lower and the payoffs continue to grow -- Lou.
DOBBS: Lisa, thank you -- Lisa Sylvester from Washington.
This brings us to our poll tonight. The question: Why do you think neither Republicans nor Democrats are taking a position on a national immigration policy? It is unimportant, it is too complicated, a lack of political courage on the part of our national elected officials? You can vote at our Web site, CNN.com/Lou. We'll have the results later in the show.
Coming up next: Did the United States miss an opportunity to avoid war against Saddam Hussein? Former Pentagon adviser Richard Perle has an insider's view on that question at which he is the center. He is our guest next.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Well, as the violence in Iraq is now escalating, some Democrats have accused the White House of being too quick to go to war against Saddam Hussein -- at issue, whether a last-minute offer from a top Iraqi official could have avoided war. That offer came through a Imad Hage, a Lebanese-American in contact with Hassan Obeidi, the chief of Iraqi foreign intelligence, details passed on to Richard Perle, the former chairman of the Defense Policy Advisory Board, in early March.
Richard Perle joins me now.
RICHARD PERLE, FORMER ASSISTANT DEFENSE SECRETARY: Good to see you, Lou.
DOBBS: This is -- the central issue is, this offer, in your judgment, was not real?
PERLE: I don't think it was real.
When they made the approach, it was with the suggestion that Saddam would hold free elections, that he would make any concessions we desired with respect to oil. And it looked very much as if this was a trap. If we had...
DOBBS: How would it be a trap?
PERLE: Well, suppose we had entered in a discussion with an Iraqi thug -- this was one of the people closest to Saddam Hussein -- and the subject had been oil concessions to the United States, at a time when we were being accused of going after oil in Iraq.
DOBBS: Right.
PERLE: And they then revealed secret discussions to that effect? It did not look like a serious initiative. It was analyzed. It was assessed. And there were many other channels. There were messages coming from all over the place.
DOBBS: But this from a senior person in Saddam Hussein's apparatus, one or two -- No. 1 or 2 in the intelligence service. You took the offer, the offer for discussion, to the administration, did you not?
PERLE: I did.
It seemed to me, the responsible thing to do was to let experts analyze it in an appropriate manner. And I think the conclusion they came to was that this was an individual who had attempted to contact us through other channels. There were a number of governments at that moment trying to broker some sort of deal, the Russians, the French, the Egyptians, the Saudis. There were dozens of gestures of this sort. And a judgment had to be made as to what was serious and what wasn't.
DOBBS: And how long did it take for the CIA to make that assessment?
PERLE: Just a few days.
DOBBS: And, as you look back on it, any second thoughts?
PERLE: No. I don't think this war could have been avoided. Saddam Hussein probably didn't believe it was actually going to happen. And there were a lot of inconsistencies of that nature.
DOBBS: It is striking, though, just in retrospect, that the head of the Iraqi intelligence understood, obviously, clearly enough that it would happen, yet that was not communicated, again, ostensibly, to Saddam Hussein. What do you make of that?
PERLE: Well, it could be that this Iraqi intelligence officer was simply attempting to draw the United States into a dialogue that would discredit us, raise questions about our motives. I think that's what happened, although we'll never know. He is still at large, by the way, until we...
DOBBS: Well, supposedly, in the Sunni Triangle. At least, that is one of the conjectures.
Within 48 hours of the launching of hostilities against Saddam Hussein's Iraq, there were entreaties, offers, to broker a last-minute deal. Did any of those offers from the administration, to your knowledge, go through Obeidi?
PERLE: I don't know. I don't have any knowledge of that.
But every run-up to a conflict like this has had last-minute offers, flurries of activities. It happened before the first Gulf War in 1991. No one should be surprised.
DOBBS: We're looking at here Baghdad on March 21, if you will, the Shock and Awe, which is a hollow-sounding expression now, in retrospect, given all that has ensued since. There is no question, is there, in your mind, that the post- Saddam Iraq mission has been badly botched by this administration and this government?
PERLE: I wouldn't go that far.
There are problems, to be sure. I think they're being solved. We're learning. We don't have a lot of experience getting into a situation like this. And we have had to adjust, as we have discovered how it is evolving. I think we're doing a credible job. And most of the country is relatively free of violence.
DOBBS: Well, the Sunni Triangle certainly is not. From Mosul, from Tikrit, throughout all of Baghdad and the areas and environs beyond, roughly a third of the population is certainly not secure. And one could argue even broader it is not. And Americans -- the attacks against Americans and American interests have tripled over the course of the last month.
PERLE: But we are beginning now to get a serious flow of intelligence that permits us to deal, in many cases, before attacks can take place. And, look...
DOBBS: So you're suggesting the number of attacks would be even greater if we did not have better intelligence?
PERLE: Well, the intelligence that we're getting is permitting us to go after the ringleaders.
Look, you had car bombs in Saudi Arabia. There was no war in Saudi Arabia. It's pretty much a police state. Fanatics are capable of inflicting damage. There's no doubt about that. This is part of the war on terror. And the combination of people who have nowhere to go, Saddam's loyalists, and terrorists coming in from outside to take a stand in their holy war, it's a -- it's a combination that it's taking us some time to deal with. But we are dealing with it.
DOBBS: Is one of those given credit as an architect of the war against Saddam, what do you make of the judgment by this Pentagon and Donald Rumsfeld and the general staff that no further U.S. troops are needed when we have seen attacks escalate, when Ambassador Paul Bremer tells us that intelligence suggests that the number of terrorist attacks, insurgent attacks, whether from Ba'athists or from foreign terrorists, will escalate in the months ahead? That defies common sense.
PERLE: It appears to be inconsistent. But the real issue is what do we need to cope with the situation in Iraq? Do we need more Americans or do we need to organize the Iraqis differently? And I don't think we need more Americans. I think more Americans, in the sense, expose more Americans to danger.
The Iraqis have to take responsibility for their own security. Their the principal victims. Iraqis are dying in large numbers from the same bombs that are intended to drive us from Iraq. DOBBS: There is every indication on the part of the administration now that the Iraqi governing council is perhaps about to be reconfigured or replaced. Just exactly who will be the Iraqis to whom we would turn for both solace and guidance of their own people?
PERLE: Well, the leaders who now form the Iraqi governing council are leaders from the north and the south of the country, widely respected in their own communities. Ahmed Chalabi, who for years fought to mobilize the removal of Saddam Hussein.
I don't think they're going to be replaced. I think they're going to assume greater responsibility. I don't think they've been given enough responsibility, frankly. And we can't expect them to perform if we don't give them scope to perform.
DOBBS: And we cannot give them scope, can we?
PERLE: Sure we can.
DOBBS: If we do not -- if we're incapable of providing security for our own forces?
PERLE: Well, they can do a great deal to provide security for themselves and to stabilize the security situation to our benefit. And you're going to see that happen over the next weeks and months.
DOBBS: How soon? We have Ambassador Bremer's judgment. How about your judgment as to when these attacks against American interests will decline and when the United States will be taking fewer casualties amongst its military in Iraq?
PERLE: Well, I think we're making progress now, although last week was obviously a horrible week. And no one can rule out the car bomb that kills large numbers of people or the helicopter that has brought down. But...
DOBBS: As it turns out, by a surface-to-air missile.
PERLE: Most of the attacks have, in fact, been smaller in scope.
DOBBS: If this pace of attack, at this level, continues against U.S. forces, how long would you be prepared to accept these casualties before calling for a significant increase in force level?
PERLE: Well, if I thought an increase would solve the problem, I would be in favor of an increase now.
DOBBS: I understand.
PERLE: What I think we need to do is accelerate the handover of security responsibility to the Iraqis. It's under way now. We're training people.
I think some of our early ambitions for the training of Iraqis were probably unnecessarily large. There are 30-day wonders in a case like this, people who are trained quickly and in the field quickly.
DOBBS: And mission accomplished much too premature?
PERLE: Well, the military phase of the war is, the more or less conventional war was a mission accomplished. Clearly, we have not yet brought Iraq to the place we hope to bring it, and the place that Iraqis want it to be, which is a decent future.
DOBBS: Richard Perle, as always, good to have you with us.
PERLE: Thank you.
DOBBS: Tonight's quote is a somewhat different take on Iraq and the media's view of what is newsworthy in that country and elsewhere and its context. We -- quote -- "Last month, 36 servicemen were killed in Iraq and I was the top story on the news for the last week. What is wrong with that picture?" That quote from Rosie O'Donnell on the media focus on her breach of contract suit with her former magazine.We would also add that's the first you've heard of that case on this broadcast.
Coming up next, President Bush defends free trade. Suzanne Malveaux will report from the White House.
And Commerce Secretary Don Evans has a warning for China: America's patience is wearing thin when it comes to unfair trade. Commerce Secretary Don Evans is our guest next.
Please stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: President Bush today said free trade creates jobs in the United States. President Bush delivered the message at a German auto plant in South Carolina, a state that's lost tens of thousands of textile jobs to foreign countries.
White House correspondent Suzanne Malveaux is traveling with the president and reports tonight from Greer, South Carolina -- Suzanne.
SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Lou, President Bush raised more than $2 million for his re-election campaign. He also squeezed in a roundtable discussion on the economy, this time at a BMW plant here in Greer, South Carolina. That's where he was focusing on expanding free trade as well as opening markets. The president making the case it will strengthen the economy. Just take a look at BMW that employs here 5,000 workers. It's partnered with an American steel company that also employs some 12,000 local workers, making the case that open and free markets is good all around.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: You hear this -- a lot of talk about trade. You're living the trade world. And if we do a good job about making sure trade is free and fair, people are going to find work here in America. That's what this is all about. In other words, we welcome people coming here. We welcome their money. I know the workers welcome the chance to work and we're good about it. We're good at workers. And that's what this plant shows.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MALVEAUX: Now, Lou this message comes at a important time for the administration. The World Trade Organization ruled illegal the tariffs put on trade imports that the U.S. has imposed. The U.S. says that it needs this to protect the domestic steel industry to be competitive while it is undergoing some reconstruction. But the WTO is saying that it breaks the rules.
Now the president has to face a rather critical decision whether or not to abandon the tariffs or perhaps face $2.2 billion in sanctions for the European Union. The European Union, some members saying they will target goods that are produced in states that are critical to the president's re-election -- Lou.
DOBBS: Suzanne, thanks. Suzanne Malveaux reporting from Greer, South Carolina.
The issue of free and fair trade is sparking another round of debate in American politics. The United States faces an economic recovery without strong job creation while running a record trade deficit.
Some Republican and Democratic lawmakers are blasting China for its trade practices. My guest tonight says America's patience is wearing thin and he has warned Beijing that time is running out.
Commerce Secretary Don Evans joins us now.
Mr. Secretary, good to have you with us.
DON EVANS, COMMERCE SECRETARY: Thank you, Lou. Great to be with you again.
DOBBS: This deficit is going reach probably $130 billion this year. It has been a deficit for the past seven years. It gets worse and worse. What are you going to do about it?
EVANS: Well, Lou, I went to China, as you mentioned, just the last couple of weeks. In fact, I would say that Secretary Snow is in China, Ambassador Zellic was in China. The president met with President Hu not too long ago talking about this very issue.
I delivered a very strong message to them that -- that -- Look, we love competition in America. We're the best competitors in the world. But we're going demand a level of playing field. We're going to demand that our competitors and our workers here in America are on the same -- are on a level playing field with everybody else in the world.
And what I talked about when I was in China was their lack of enforcement of intellectual property rights. What I talked about in China was a continuing subsidies that enterprises receive from state- owned banks. What I talked about in China were -- were nonperforming loans in their banks, some of the official numbers, 30 percent. I think it is probably closer to 50 percent. And what I talked about in China was the importance of them continuing to pick up the pace of meeting their WTO obligations and opening up their markets to American workers and American products.
DOBBS: Technology, aerospace amongst our chief exports to China. Again, $130 billion deficit. Jobs are also a leading export from this country to China, a country that has to produce somewhere between eight million and 10 million jobs a year just to maintain pace with its population growth. How long can we sustain this?
EVANS: Well, Lou, I think it is important to always point out how dynamic our own economy is and how many jobs we're creating in the American economy. You know, people when they see the unemployment numbers don't realize that our economy creates about eight million jobs a quarter. And so there is eight million new jobs out there every quarter for American workers.
Do we lose jobs? Yes, indeed we do. And the key is to always have a net increase of job gains, but we have an incredibly dynamic economy. As I travel the world, the world marvels at our ability to create new jobs in this country. Over the last 20 years, we've created some 40 million new net jobs. To give you the example over the last 10 years, we created about 342 million new jobs. We lost 324 million jobs, for a net gain of 18 million jobs. So we have got a -- we have got a job-creating economy here in America.
DOBBS: Mr. Secretary, did I just hear you take credit for job growth during the Clinton administration?
EVANS: Well, no, I took credit for it during the Reagan and the 1990s. What I said was in -- over the last 20 years, we've created some 40 million new jobs in this economy. That would be the Reagan, that would be Bush, that would be Clinton...
DOBBS: I think that is -- I have to say, Mr. Secretary, my compliments. That is one of the more intriguing constructions of job creation, and you're exactly right. And I admire the bipartisan approach to job creation.
In point of fact, in this country, though, we have to, as you suggest, 150,000 jobs have to be created every month to maintain pace with our population growth. We approached that in the most recent month reported, 7.2 percent GDP growth. If this economy can maintain that, it is going to be a very happy time.
We do have some significant issues. Amongst them, high value jobs being exported overseas, outsourced by corporate America. The numbers, according to the most recent University of California survey, 14 million jobs at risk. This is not the free trade world that most people were talking about a decade ago, is it?
EVANS: Well, you know, Lou, this is a more integrated economy, more interlinked, more network economy that anybody thought imaginable even 10 years ago. But CEA just had a report that I looked at that said when our imports increase in a sector of our economy, jobs also increase in that sector of our economy. And it's because how integrated and interlinked this global economy is becoming.
And Lou, I think it is very important for everybody to realize that this is not a zero-sum gain in the global economy. This is a win-win when you see jobs created in other parts of the world. It really has a very positive impact on the American economy.
So it's a matter of growing the pie, growing the global economy, lifting standard of living for everybody around the world, including right here in America.
If you look at what real disposable income has been doing in this economy over the last three years, I would say, during President Bush's administration, real disposable income has been increasing at 3.4 percent. So the standard of living has been increasing in this American economy. I think it will continue to. But we shouldn't think about it as a zero-sum gain.
DOBBS: Mr. Secretary, I assure you I'm not thinking of it as a zero-sum gain, I'm thinking of it in terms of $503 billion current account deficit the last year, about $2.5 trillion sitting out there of potential foreign ownership of assets of this country, 14 million jobs that are vulnerable to outsourcing. And the significant exportation of high-value jobs, which just raises a host of issues. I understand your perspective, but would you not concede that the issues are so complex and so important that we have got to evaluate those very real threats?
EVANS: Lou, what I would say it is very, very important for us to continue to create the environment for competition. I think competition is the key to continuing to grow our economy and the global economy. Competition on a level playing field, because what competition does is it leads to innovation, which leads to higher productivity, which leads to economic growth, and which leads to higher standard of living. I think that's exactly what is happening in the American economy. I think we'll see it happening in the global economy.
DOBBS: Mr. Secretary, I'm with you all the way as long as competition, efficiency and productivity don't become code words for cheaper labor. You don't mean that?
EVANS: No, you know, Lou, you know, look, I think it's very, very important, as I did in China, continue to press the issue to the world that we love to compete, but it's going to be on a level playing field. We're all going to play by the same rules.
DOBBS: Commerce Secretary Don Evans, we appreciate your time. And appreciate you...
EVANS: Sure, Lou, good to be with you.
DOBBS: ... getting tough. Thank you.
EVANS: Thank you, Lou.
DOBBS: Coming up next, Democratic Senator Zell Miller will be with us. He says his own party's candidates for the presidency are like polkas, all the same. Senator Miller joins us next. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Senator Zell Miller is one of the most distinguished Democrats in Washington. He says, however, he plans to vote for President Bush in 2004. His new book is entitled "A National Party No More." I talked with Senator Miller earlier and asked him why he can't support any of the nine Democratic candidates for his party's nomination.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SEN. ZELL MILLER (D), GEORGIA: Well, because they have all adopted the same issues. They're sort of like polkas. They all sound alike, but they all have different names. I mean, look, they have all adopted the worst single feature of the McGovern campaign, that is cut and run and come back home. And they've adopted the worst single feature of a Mondale campaign, raise taxes.
McGovern carried one state in '72. Mondale carried one state in '84. What kind of formula or plan for victory is that?
DOBBS: Has any one of these nine candidates called Senator Zell Miller, one of the most respected men in Congress, and said, Senator, have you got some counsel for me, some advice?
MILLER: Not on anything like this. I talked to some of the candidates earlier on in the campaign. And to tell you the truth, I thought some of them were headed I thought in the right direction. But you see right now what they're doing is, they're not exactly running for president. They're running to get the nomination. And when you run to get the nomination, you run to the furtherest (sic) you can run to the left, because you've got get that extreme group that makes up that small percentage of a shrinking party.
DOBBS: The subtitle of why of your book is "the Conscience of a Conservative Democrat." And there are many people in this country, younger people, who think that is a complete contradiction in terms. And I can remember when there was a vivid and vigorous conservative wing to the Democratic party. Is there any possibility that that could come back to the Democratic party?
MILLER: Well, I got into politics and ran for the state Senate in 1960, the year that John Kennedy was elected. And John Kennedy in 1960 carried Georgia and North Carolina and South Carolina and many southern states as well as the states of New England. In fact, he carried Georgia by a larger percentage than he carried Massachusetts.
How did he do that? He did that by being a centrist. Eleanor Roosevelt wouldn't support him because he was a centrist. But he wanted to cut taxes, which he did later on. And he stood up to Nixon in those debates. He came across much stronger than Nixon did on national consequence.
That's the formula that will work today. Whenever you talk about that to a Democrat, they say you're talking about Republican light. You're talking about Bush light. No, you're talking about where the people are. That's where they were in 1960. That's where they were in 2000. That's where they are today.
DOBBS: The people, the hard-working middle class American today, as you know, Senator is being squeezed from every direction. This goes beyond macroeconomics GDP reports and a Labor Department reports. The middle class in this country is under attack. Is it your judgment that either party is doing enough to help to guide and to represent hard-working middle class Americans right now?
MILLER: Well, I think they would like to. I think that they would like to, but you see the Democrats right now are pulled so far to the left by these narrow special interest groups that have their own agenda, that they put in front of the total sum of the party, and it is taking them in a direction where they cannot do that.
These people want to keep more of their money instead of sending it to the government for taxes. These people want to have a better education program. These people want to have a prescription drug benefit. These people want to have -- make sure that our country is safe and secure from terrorism. That's what they want. Whether they're middle class or almost any class, but certainly the middle class feels that way.
DOBBS: Well, senator, you have a prescription for the Democratic party for the country?
MILLER: Well as I say, the true and tested battle plan that worked in 1960 and would work again was what John Kennedy came up with. And that was, let's leave more money in the pockets of the taxpayers and let's make sure that we have a very, very strong national defense. We must keep this nation secure. And he did. He cut taxes. And he stood up to the Communists and stood up to Russia.
DOBBS: Senator Zell Miller, we're going miss you in politics. We're delighted you've written this very informative book "A National Party No More." And all the best to you. Hope we can talk soon.
MILLER: Thank you very much.
DOBBS: Coming up next, we'll look at one company and what it received in exchange for paying its executives tens of millions of dollars. It wasn't a bargain, we'll tell you that much. Christine Romans is next. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: The results of our poll tonight. The question, "why do you think neither Republicans nor Democrats are taking a position on a national immigration policy?" 4 percent of your said because it's unimportant, 6 percent said it's too complicated, 90 percent said they have a lack of political courage. On Washington, stocks opened often Wall Street with losses, the Dow down 53 points, the Nasdaq down 29, the S&P 500 down 6. More fallout today in the mutual fund deal. A mess, I think that is the word I would be looking for there -- Christine Romans.
CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN FINANCIAL CORRESPONDENT: Two more senior executives shown the door in the mutual fund scandal. These 2 are from Alliance Capital. Alliance canned John Carifa, the former CEO and Michael Laughlin a mutual funds executive there. Carifa made at least $3.2 million last year, 10's of millions of dollars in salary and bonus during the 1990's.
You know, the supporters of multimillion dollar executive pay packages argue that's the kind of money you need to keep the best and the brightest. So, in this case, what does tens of millions of dollars get you? It is numerous investigations into market timing, likely criminal and civil charges and an undetermined amount of payback to investors, not to mention concerns about outflows from the mutual funds.
And don't expect Alliance or Putnam, which also ousted its former CEO, to publicly chastise their well paid fallen stars. Both took pains to thank them for their fine service over the years in their press releases when they announced their resignations.
DOBBS: Seems like a quite adequate expression of gratitude in their salaries. Christine, thanks; Christine Romans.
Taking a look now at your thoughts. A number of you wrote in about my interview Secretary of Labor Elaine Chao. Many surprised to learn that the secretary of labor didn't know how many foreign workers, H1-B and L1 visa holders are in this country right now.
From Scottsdale, Arizona "if our Secretary of Labor doesn't have the numbers you asked her tonight, then who in this administration does?' Cheryl, sadly no one. Not in the Labor Department, Commerce or Homeland Security Departments has any idea. That's one of the problems.
And from Richmond, Virginia, "If you speak to Labor Department Secretary Chao again, tell her there's only 1 H1-B holder I'm concerned with. It's the guy who's sitting in my old cubicle at my old computer making $25,000 less than I used to make, with no benefits. Tell her that my country sold me out." That from Mark Williamson.
From Rochester, New York, "Lou, I would of found Elaine Chao's comments about job recovery almost laughable, if my son, along with thousands, had not lost their jobs 2 weeks ago because of outsourcing to China. Instead of spinning numbers, they should work on a solution." That from Sandy Potter.
From Salinas, California, about the illegal aliens suing Wal- Mart, "It is truly ironic that people who break out laws to enter our country to take the benefits of law abiding citizens and immigrants now seek the very protections meant to protect immigrants." That from Terry.
From Las Vegas, "Lou, your show last Friday was the best ever. Every subject covered was what Americans should be thinking about and trying to fix. Your comments on illegal immigration were right on the mark and very brave. I too am for legal immigration, but against this free for all that goes on on our southern border. An endless wave of millions of illegals will bring this nation to a 3rd world status in a generation." That from David Mills
From Beaumont, California, "I would just like to thank you for providing a news hour dedicated to the news that really matters, not celebrity news. I'm in high school and I'm very interested in politics and economics and its beneficial to me to have a show that's objective and informative." That from James Love. Well, James, we wish you the very best and we thank you for your kind thoughts.
Send us what you're thinking about. Send it to loudobbs@CNN.com. That's our show for tonight. Thank you for being with us. Join us tomorrow as we continue our series of special reports, "Exporting America." We take a look at what happens to Americans whose jobs have been shipped overseas.
For all of us here, good night from New York. "ANDERSON COOPER 360" is next.
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Interview With Senator Zell Miller>
