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Lou Dobbs Tonight
Operation Iron Hammer in Full Force; America's Middle Class Under Siege; Neo-Conservatism Will Rise Or Fall Based On Success In Iraq
Aired November 13, 2003 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT for Thursday, November 13. Here now, Lou Dobbs.
LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening.
Tonight, Operation Iron Hammer, day two of the U.S. offensive against terrorists and insurgents in Baghdad. Jamie McIntyre at the Pentagon will report on the military significance of these strikes and their effectiveness.
Weird weather sweeping across America, bringing five inches of rain and hail to Southern California in three hours, gale-force winds across the Midwest and much of the East, and nearly one million people without power.
"Exporting America" tonight -- fighting back against the massive outflow of jobs to cheap labor markets overseas. Casey Wian with our special report on the companies trying to keep Americans on the job.
And broken borders -- tonight, the federal government has a solution to the illegal alien crisis. They would make illegal aliens legal. Lisa Sylvester will have the report.
But first tonight, America's middle class is under siege. Families are working harder than ever to get by. But some families are finding it all but impossible to stay in the middle class. They're being squeezed by higher mortgage costs, rising health care payments, expensive child care and fewer well-paying jobs. And the number of personal bankruptcies is at a record height and is soaring. That is just part of the story.
Kitty Pilgrim reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KITTY PILGRIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): If a family of four makes between $30,000 and $100,000 a year, they're in the middle class. That's a little less than half of the nation's population. And these days, they're being squeezed harder than ever.
ELIZABETH WARREN, AUTHOR, "THE TWO-INCOME TRAP": Today's two- income family is struggling to stay in the middle class. They've got both mom and dad at work. And, even so, they're barely hanging on by their fingernails. PILGRIM: Warren says about 20 percent of the middle-class families are what is called house poor, spending more than a third of their take-home salary on housing costs. Housing payment, mortgage, or rent is up by 69 percent in the last 25 years.
According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, the average man's salary, inflation-adjusted, is just over 1 percent in that time. Another pressing cost, out-of-pocket health care spending for a family of four. Even after the employer provides basic coverage, it's up 61 percent over the last 30 years. Families have increased their working hours. More wives have needed to go to work just to cover the basics.
JARED BERNSTEIN, ECONOMIC POLICY INSTITUTE: The middle-class time squeeze is very much a function of a sharp trend in increased hours worked per year, not per week, but per year, by middle-income families. Those families have added about three to four months per year of extra work over the couple of decades -- the last couple of decades. It's primarily working wives, more of whom have come into the labor force.
PILGRIM: Child care is an added expense. These days, average day care for a toddler, $4,300 a year. To send a child to a full-time preschool, $5,300, more than it usually costs to send a child to a state college.
How about that second car to get mom to work? Payments and insurance, $4,100 per year, per car, times two. Many say it's a misperception that families are overspending. They're not.
WARREN: These are not families who are profligate. These are families who are going bankrupt over mortgages and health insurance and day care, not families who are going broke over lattes and expensive tennis shoes.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: Two million will file for bankruptcy this year. And by the time they do, they typically have about year's salary charged up on their credit cards -- Lou.
DOBBS: And, unfortunately, as I said at the outset, this is only part of the story. The pressure on working Americans in this country, we've got to continue to watch this. We'll be reporting on it extensively.
Kitty, thank you very much -- Kitty Pilgrim.
Middle-class homeowners, at least, are benefiting from another economic trend, rising home prices across the country. Home prices across the country soared at a record pace from July to September. It's the strong quarter of growth in more than two decades, the biggest jump in prices in California's Riverside and San Bernardino counties, both near Los Angeles, where the average home price jumped more than 26 percent.
Tonight, our special report, "Exporting America." Americans are on a buying binge for imported goods, exporting U.S. dollars at a record-breaking pace in the month of September. New figures today show this country's trade deficit with the rest of the world swelled to $41 billion. And it now appears that last year's record will be shattered.
Peter Viles reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
PETER VILES, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It was a buying binge by Americans, but we spent the money on foreign cars, on foreign oil, clothing made in China, television sets made overseas. The trade deficit hit a staggering $41 billion in September. Year-to-date, it now stands at $366 billion. That's up 21 percent over last year's record-setting pace, which means the United States is basically giving away part of its economic recovery.
LAKSHMAN ACHUTHAN, ECONOMIC CYCLE RESEARCH INSTITUTE: A lot of the stimulus is essentially leaking out of the U.S. through this demand for imports and stimulating foreign economies, in particular manufacturing sources, like China.
VILES: The China deficit is the biggest, $89.7 billion through September. We're running a $67 billion deficit with the European Union, $40 billion with Canada, just under $31 billion with Mexico.
Still, the Bush administration, while it has been pushing China on some issues, has maintained that increased trade generally helps the American economy.
DON EVANS, COMMERCE SECRETARY: The CEA just had a report that I looked at that said, when our imports increase in a sector of our economy, jobs also increase in that sector of our economy. And it's because how integrated and interlinked this global economy is becoming.
VILES: But others are worried. Warren Buffett says the trade deficit has caused him to start betting against the dollar. And former Wall Street guru Felix Rohatyn says we now -- quote -- "run the risk of a possible crisis of the dollar.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
VILES: As the deficit rises, some trade critics have suggested a moratorium on new trade agreements. But the Bush administration is, right now, negotiating another one of these big deals. They call this CAFTA, son of NAFTA. It would expand NAFTA down to Central America -- Lou.
DOBBS: And, of course, to be followed by the free trade agreement that would take over the whole hemisphere.
VILES: All of the Americas.
OK, thank you very much, Peter Viles. DOBBS: Well, the exporting of America, as we have been reporting here for months, includes the shipment of hundreds of thousands of American jobs to cheap overseas labor markets. That shipment has simply devastated manufacturing and high-tech workers in this country.
However, we also have some good news tonight. There are some American companies trying to hard to be responsible corporate citizens, trying very hard to keep Americans on the job. And they're finding that keeping those jobs at home is good business.
Casey Wian reports from Pomona, California.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Hayward Pool Products considered moving some operations overseas.
PAUL ADELBERG, V.P. OF MANUFACTURING, HAYWARD POOL PRODUCTS: We could actually produce a product more cost-effectively, with better quality, more reliability and less risk than going offshore.
WIAN: Hayward transformed itself using the Kaizen manufacturing process first popularized in Japan by Toyota. Simple changes, such as color-coded tags for parts management and a redesigned factory floor, increased productivity by 37 percent. Almost nothing is wasted. Even tiny scraps of plastic trimmed from parts are recycled.
(on camera): It used to take Hayward workers about an hour and a half to switch out one of these giant injection molds. Since adopting the Kaizen remanufacturing techniques, the job can be done in less than 20 minutes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Bring the set of parameters to the specifications and it will help us do a quicker start-up.
WIAN (voice-over): And Hayward is not stopping there. This week, a group of Kaizen-trained executives from other companies are helping figure out how to cut that time to 10 minutes.
WILLIAM SCHWARTZ, TBM CONSULTING: We see a tremendous migration of production work to offshore entities around the world, Mexico and especially in China. And companies are using these strategies to counter that flow, to be more productive, to be more cost-effective, and to keep jobs here in the U.S.
WIAN: Software developer Integnology is one tech company bucking the offshoring trend. CEO Basheer Janjua, a U.S. citizen, says there is a large supply of displaced American I.T. workers with more skills than their overseas counterparts.
BASHEER JANJUA, CEO, INTEGNOLOGY: I would rather give them a chance, because, if you have master work, you have a masterpiece. Yes, it's cheap, but quality's cheap. It's late. It's not on schedule. You miss the market. So do the math. In total, you're losing. WIAN: Web site designer M3iworks doesn't bother bidding for business that's extremely price-sensitive and instead focuses on clients seeking local customer service.
LINDA GOLD, CEO, M3IWORKS: Programmers in India are making anywhere from $10 to $15. Our programmers here are making anywhere from $40 to $120 an hour. So, if I have to compete on price, I don't enter the contest.
WIAN: One way she levels the labor cost playing field is by using more college interns.
Casey Wian, CNN, Pomona, California.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: From corporations trying to keep American jobs in this country to the companies that are giving them away to cheap foreign markets. Tomorrow, in our special report, "Exporting America,' we look at the worst abusers of the H-1B and L1 visa programs. These companies have put hundreds of thousands of Americans out of work and changed their lives forever. Join us tomorrow night.
Coming up, "Exporting America" -- one expert who says America's relationship with India will be a win-win situation. Narayan Keshavan of the Indian-American Forum for Political Education joins us.
Then, broken borders -- tonight, a proposal in Washington to make it even easier for illegal aliens to cross our nation's borders and stay. Lisa Sylvester will have that story.
And Operation Iron Hammer -- the commander of U.S. forces in Iraq says insurgents will not break the will of U.S. forces. Senior Pentagon correspondent Jamie McIntyre will report from Washington.
Please stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: A lot of the food that ends up on our kitchen tables has been harvested and produced by illegal aliens. They've become a shadow society, some 10 million of them. And many of them work for cheap wages for large agribusinesses. Instead of enforcing current immigration lawyers requiring them to leave the country, the Bush administration is now actively considering a guest worker program.
Lisa Sylvester reports from Washington.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LISA SYLVESTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Secretary of State Colin Powell wrapped up two-day meetings with his Mexican counterpart, the topic, cross-border migration.
COLIN POWELL, SECRETARY OF STATE: And we're going to look for ways to move forward step by step to make sure that we can make it safe, legal, and, in all other ways, respectful of our need for labor.
SYLVESTER: That's as far as Secretary Powell was willing to go on the record. But the Bush administration has hinted support for plans to give legal status to 500,000 illegal aliens who work in the agricultural sector.
A bill in Congress co-sponsored by Chris Cannon would let illegal aliens enter the country for seasonal work on farms, with the understanding they would go home after a few months. Another bill backed by Senator John McCain goes even further, setting up a guest worker programming for all 10 million illegal aliens in the country.
REP. CHRIS CANNON (R), UTAH: Currently, a huge amount of work that's done on farms and in dairies and in producing vegetables and fruits, a huge amount of that is done by people who are here, frankly, illegally. And, of course, the benefit of that is cheap food.
SYLVESTER: Cheap food, but it also means lower wages. Immigration experts say making it easier for workers to cross the border would send a flood of cheap labor into the United States. And there's another concern.
DAN STEIN, FEDERATION FOR AMERICAN IMMIGRATION REFORM: A guest is someone who comes in and leaves. If I invite my uncle and aunt, I expect them, at some point -- love them to pieces -- but I expect them to leave. Under these bills, these -- quote -- "guests," they're never going to go home.
SYLVESTER: In fact, both proposed measures in Congress would allow the guest workers to apply for legal permanent resident status after a set period.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SYLVESTER: Whether the workers are here legally or illegally, a substantial amount of the money earned is sent back home, $14 billion a year. That is more than the money Mexico takes in from any other source, except for oil -- Lou.
DOBBS: Lisa, thank you very much -- Lisa Sylvester.
We've reported extensively about illegal aliens from Mexico using Mexican identification cards to obtain state driver's licenses, to open bank accounts. Now several other Latin American countries are planning to give the same kind of identification cards to their own nationals in the United States. Guatemala and Ecuador recently began handing out their own I.D. cards. And Honduras is expected to follow suit soon. Nicaragua, El Salvador and Brazil are also considering the idea.
Many banks and police departments accept those cards as identification, despite the fact that the Department of Homeland Security has warned that they pose a threat. And no one in Washington can apparently answer the question we've asked, which is, why is it that illegal aliens can sometimes get U.S. driver's licenses in this country, while Americans in other parts of the world are required to have an international driver's license?
Coming up next, "Exporting America," our special report, continues tonight. Narayan Keshavan of the Indian-American Forum For Political Action and Education says exporting American jobs to India makes economic sense for the United States.
And General David Grange is on point tonight. Operation Iron Hammer the, U.S. answering a recent wave of guerrilla attacks in Iraq with a new strategy. General David Grange on point coming up.
Please stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: More than 350,000 American technology jobs have been outsourced to India and to other countries as well. My next guest says it would be ideal for those jobs to stay in this country. But he says outsourcing them can help some Americans keep their job.
Narayan Keshavan is the executive director of the Indian-American Forum For Political Education and joins me now.
It's good to have you with us.
NARAYAN KESHAVAN, EXEC. DIRECTOR, INDIAN AMERICAN FORUM FOR POLITICAL EDUCATION: It's pleasure to be with you.
DOBBS: It is counterintuitive to say that outsourcing U.S. jobs overseas, whether to India, to the Philippines, Ireland, that's somehow good for the U.S. How is that?
KESHAVAN: Well, the name of the game is wealth creation.
Once wealth creation is interest process -- first of all, I don't agree with the notion that outsourcing is taking the job from our country to another country, especially to India or to a sister democracy. I personally believe that these jobs are not being done here properly. It's not economical to do it here, and that's why those jobs are moving to another place.
DOBBS: Well, and I would take exception to that and say to you, the only reason they're going to India is because people in India, in most cases, are working for something like 80 percent to 90 percent less than their American counterpart and U.S. corporations are simply seeking out a cheaper labor pool. You certainly wouldn't resist that, would you?
KESHAVAN: Cost is one of the factors in any CEO's calculation of running businesses, Lou.
DOBBS: Of late, it seems principal in their consideration.
KESHAVAN: Well, they are answerable to their stakeholders. And, naturally -- it is not just some sweatshop that's being run in India, you know. There's Microsoft. There's Oracle. There's Sun Microsystems there, IBM there. DOBBS: Well, there's GE Capital, 15,000 people in Delhi. It goes on and on. McKenzie has a full operation, as it is advising. Accenture has a full operation advising these clever CEOs, who we pay a great deal of money in this country, to show them how to lower their labor costs.
(CROSSTALK)
KESHAVAN: You would concede that these CEOs are not fools.
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: Oh, I would say that they're not fools. I would say, in most cases, the boards of directors, who pay them egregiously high salaries and allow to export U.S. jobs, just on the basis of cost, they're the fools.
KESHAVAN: I'm not here to defend outrageous salaries.
(LAUGHTER)
DOBBS: OK.
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: What I'm saying to you is, I would not -- I love India. I love the Indian people. It's a remarkable culture and society.
When I say that this is idiotic on any basis, I'm saying -- I'm not blaming India. I'm blaming the idiots here, who are without reference -- you talked about stakeholders. There's no more important stakeholder than the customer and the employee.
KESHAVAN: First of all, let me finish my thought.
DOBBS: Sure.
KESHAVAN: That, once these jobs are gone there, that makes those companies viable over here, in the sense that they stay in business. The high-end jobs are retained here and the tax base is retained here. Otherwise, the whole company may have gone under and, thereby, the entire staff of the company would have been out of job.
At least now, a portion of the job remains here and a portion of the job remains, say, in India, Ireland, or Israel, or wherever. And the process of wealth creation, which is where I began, continues. And I think that's a good thing. So I don't think we should look at outsourcing as just taking job from one place to another. That is what is my argument. Now...
DOBBS: But that's precisely what's going on, isn't it? We are watching, in this instance, and principally with India, high-value jobs, manufacturing jobs, that are being outsourced. And we're now talking about high-value technology jobs primarily. We have programmers in this country, many of them Indian-Americans, who are out of work because these jobs are outsourced. KESHAVAN: I know a few.
DOBBS: Precisely my point.
KESHAVAN: Yes.
DOBBS: What is the sense of the United States giving up its middle class to outsource these jobs? I just don't quite -- if one has sort of a global view of the world that suggests that individual national interests don't matter, I can perhaps get there. But, as an American citizen, I can't.
KESHAVAN: Yes, I can understand the sad stories that I have read, including in my own community over here.
DOBBS: Sure.
KESHAVAN: But the fact of the matter is, the entire trade situation is -- and you are the ones who have been talking about free trade all over the globe, open up your market, and blah, blah, blah, liberalize your trade, match up to the standards of us.
DOBBS: And it's worked pretty well for India, hasn't it?
(CROSSTALK)
KESHAVAN: It's worked pretty well for India. And now you might even say, use the word, it's biting up in the
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: Exactly. We're running a significant deficit with India.
KESHAVAN: That's the reality of today. And that's the challenge. But, Lou, we have to look at it this way. The jobs that are going there are, No. 1, keeping the companies here viable, second, creating wealth.
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: You're not suggesting that IBM, General Electric, McKenzie, Dell Computer, that these companies would not be viable if they weren't outsourcing those jobs.
KESHAVAN: Much of their operations over here are not viable. Otherwise, they would not have brought it from here, because the CEOs also know the backlash of politics in this country. So I think you should talk to them. They'll give you much better reasons.
DOBBS: I do. I assure you I do.
KESHAVAN: I know you must, Lou.
DOBBS: And when I ask them, the answer is always the same, those who are honest and straightforward. The reason is because Indian labor is cheaper than U.S. labor. (CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: And there seems to be a disassociation on the part of many of those people between the fact that an employee in this country is also a consumer and the consumption part of our economy is two- thirds of this economy.
KESHAVAN: No, that -- I agree with you that the labor in India is cheaper than this country. But the brains are as smart, if not smarter, in high technology there. The intellectual capital of India is enormous. Their talent, their skills, their work ethic is
(CROSSTALK)
KESHAVAN: ... in the world.
DOBBS: Absolutely, and wonderful entrepreneurs, wonderful mercantilists.
(CROSSTALK)
KESHAVAN: Right.
Look, if these guys hadn't come to this country, the Indian- Americans, to Silicon Valley, you wouldn't be having Hotmail to use. I'm sure you use that. I use it. You wouldn't be having Pentium chip here. That was designed by an Indian-American. You wouldn't probably see such a very prosperous Microsoft, minus the Indian-Americans who work
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: Now you're going to get a lot of people upset, because some people might not like to see Microsoft quite as prosperous. But we'll have to put that up against the Indian fellow at Sun, against the Indian fellow at Intel, against -- but, anyway, the point is, those jobs weren't outsourced. That was talent that came to this country to work. And it's worked very well for all of us.
I hope you'll come back soon as we discuss this, because this issue, as you know, is becoming -- moving to the forefront.
KESHAVAN: It's going to be a hot political potato this election season.
DOBBS: Right.
KESHAVAN: Any time you want me, I'm available.
DOBBS: We will want to talk often. Thank you.
KESHAVAN: Thank you, Lou.
DOBBS: Thank you. Tonight's thought is on opening America's borders to trade, free trade: "To realize the full possibilities of this economy, we must reach beyond our own borders to shape the revolution that is tearing down barriers and building new networks among nations and individuals and economies and cultures: globalization. It's the central reality of our time" -- that from former President Bill Clinton.
Coming up next: The United States answers the latest wave of guerrilla attacks in Iraq with what it terms an Iron Hammer. Senior Pentagon correspondent Jamie McIntyre, White House correspondent Suzanne Malveaux will report.
Please stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Some strange weather patterns hit parts of the country over the past 24 hours. Lightning lit up the sky in Southern California last night, as a freak storm dumped five inches of rain and hail in a matter of just three hours, hail still on the ground in Southern California tonight. That storm knocked out power to more than 100,000 homes and businesses.
Another storm system is blowing eastward tonight. It's knocked down power lines in the Midwest and the Great Lakes region, nearly one million people without electricity. A tornado touched down in northeast Ohio as well. Winds in the Northeast and mid-Atlantic caused flight delays, gusts up to 70 miles an hour. Some snow has fallen now in parts of Upstate New York.
In Alabama, judgment day for Chief Justice Roy Moore. Alabama's highest judge, who ignited controversy when he installed a monument to the Ten Commandments in the state courthouse, today was removed from office. Alabama's Court of the Judiciary today voted unanimously to remove Moore, saying that he willfully and publicly defied a federal court order to remove that statue. After the decision, Moore told CNN he would do it all over again.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROY MOORE, FORMER ALABAMA CHIEF JUSTICE: Absolutely no regrets. We've done what we were sworn to do. When I took office, I said I would uphold the moral foundation of our law. That, I have done. I have not denied God. And that's exactly what they asked me to do to hold office. And I said, I could not. They removed me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: Moore said he is considering an appeal. He will make an announcement next week, he says, that could alter the course of this country.
In Iraq tonight, U.S. troops and aircraft launched a second straight night of attacks against suspected enemy positions in Baghdad. Earlier, General John Abizaid, head of central command, said no more than 5,000 insurgents are taking part in these attacks against coalition forces. He said the military will break and defeat those insurgents.
Senior Pentagon correspondent, Jamie McIntyre, has the report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN SR. PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): While the CIA is warning in a secret report that insurgents may be winning converts among average Iraqis by successfully attacking the U.S. and its allies, the top U.S. commander competently insists, victory is assured.
GEN. JOHN ABIZAID, COMMANDER, CENTRAL COMMAND: They're a despicable bunch of thugs that will be defeated. There's absolutely no doubt in my mind that with patience, perseverance and courage we will see this thing through.
MCINTYRE: General Abizaid puts the number of forces opposing the U.S. at fewer than 5, 000, mostly Saddam loyalists with with a few foreign fighters mixed in.
But, he concedes, they're sitting on piles of cash and ammunition and are being coordinated at a high level. Although some U.S. commanders are beginning to believe Saddam Hussein himself could be directing the insurgency, Abizaid dismisses the specualtion that what's happening now is the result of some prewar master plan.
ABIZAID: Saddam Hussein is one of the most incompetent military leaders in the history of the world. And to give him credit to think that somehow or over other he planned this is absolutely beyond my comprehension.
MCINTYRE: With U.S. warplanes pounding a suspected resistance stronghold for a second night in Baghdad, Abizaid insisted the get tough tactics would be balanced to avoided a backlash from Iraqi citizens.
But other military experts questioned whether the crackdown might be counterproductive.
COL. SAM GARDINER (RET.), U.S. AIR FORCE: Every time the United States kicks down another door, puts a sack over another Iraqi head, bombs with a C-130 gunship or F-16, that support for the insurgent goes up, not down.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MCINTYRE: Abizaid says the insurgents are trying to break the will of the Americans and are attacking now in the north and the south, outside the so-called Ba'athist Triangle, in an effort to make it appear that no place in Iraq is safe. But he insists that they will fail and that the United States is in no rush to leave Iraq before it's stable -- Lou.
DOBBS: How long does he say the United States will be there?
MCINTYRE: Rtill no projection on how long this is going to take, although the tone of his briefing today suggested many years.
DOBBS: Jamie McIntyre, senior Pentagon correspondent, thank you.
President Bush today said he wants to encourage Iraqis to take more responsibility for the governance of their country. Yesterday, the president told the U.S. administrator in Iraq, Paul Bremer, to accelerate the political transition to a new Iraqi leadership.
White House correspondent Suzanne Malveaux has the report -- Suzanne.
SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Lou, after two days of urgent talks with the pointman in Iraq, President Bush acknowledged today a significant change in U.S. strategy. Ambassador Paul Bremer to bow back to Baghdad, present the Iraqi people with a number of options.
But the main point here is that the White House wants the iraqi governing council to create an interim Iraqi authority to turn the power back to the Iraqi people as quickly as possible. What is the time line of this? National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice saying that hopefully it would happen well short of a year. The idea is this authority would have power immediately in the day-to-day operations of Iraq as well as security.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CONDOLEEZZA RICE, NATL. SECURITY ADVISER: It's not a matter of getting the U.S. out of there. It's a matter of recognizing that the Iraqis want to take more authority and responsibility. We believe they can take more authority and responsibility.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MALVEAUX: Now, of course, questions about the politics of all of this, the timing of all of this. Some people asking and perhaps even suggesting, that with an Iraqi authority in power now that it could mean a possible scale-down of troops before president bush seeks his re-election bid any bex november. White house officials say it's not politics driving the change in strategy. Bush called the prime minister of italy berlusconi to give his conDolences for yesterday's attack. Lou?
DOBBS: Suzanne, thank you. Suzanne malveaux from the white house.
As the war continues in Iraq U.S. troops are also fighting remnants of al Qaeda in the mountains of Afghanistan. Those troops are fighting at elevations up to 13,000 feet. General John Abizaid said that fight in Afghanistan is as difficult as the war in Iraq. The general said U.S. Troops are closing in on the minute. He said they will destroy al Qaeda.
Tonight the military's new tactics in Iraq. Commanders using ground forces AC-130 gunship, Apache helicopters against suspected terrorist cells in Baghdad and elsewhere. Joining me from Chicago, General David Grange. Good to have you with us.
GENERAL DAVID GRANGE (RET), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Thank you, Lou.
DOBBS: These changes in tactics, precipitated by the attacks on the Italian military police compound?
GRANGE: Well, Lou, it may have some effect. But really it's a surge in operations. A lot of the tactics are remaining the same. They use more force. There's not much choice. During Ramadan the U.S. Forces and other coalition forces reduced the tempo of operations to honor this religious holiday where the insurgents used it as a means to increase attacks. So I think the coalition forces had no other choice but to counter that aggressiveness with more offensive operations.
DOBBS: You heard general Abizaid say that he would not give Saddam Hussein credit for these coordinated attacks that have risen to 35 to 40 a day now. Exactly whom should be credited or blamed?
GRANGE: Well, I think that General Abizaid is correct that he didn't plan it earlier. I think now, if he's alive, he probably is, and some of his other henchmen are taking advantage of the conditions on the ground right now in order to use the insurgents the way they are. He made a statement there's less than 5,000.
Well, 5,000 insurgents on a battlefield fighting conventional war, the coalition forces can take them down in less than a day. But 5,000 insurgents with a cellular structure in the cracks and crevices throughout Iraq, a long, tough fight.
DOBBS: You're an expert with considerable experience, distinguished experience in guerrilla warfare. Is there anything that you see here that suggests to you that this is going to be in any way a reasonably quick operation whether it be Iron Hammer or operation by another name? Is it something that can be carried out in a matter of months or as just reported is it something that we should expect to see go on for some years?
GRANGE: Lou, I believe some years. I think that the big part of the fighting can be solved, for instance, the surge period is very critical to both sides between now and December, let's say. You're going to have terrorist attacks, some guerrilla operations for a long, long time to come.
But right now it's critical during this period of transition where we're fighting for the will of the American people and the will of the Iraqi people that a surge of operations takes place to eliminate most of these enemy soldiers.
DOBBS: General David Grange, thank you very much.
GRANGE: My pleasure.
DOBBS: Soldiers with the National Guard are fighting a battle on a number of fronts now. A Congressional report out today says aside from risking their lives in both Iraq and Afghanistan, the soldiers are fighting with the Pentagon just to get paid.
National Guard troops say they're not being paid the right amount or even being paid on time. The general accounting office says the Pentagon's pay process is having, what it terms, a profound financial impact on individual soldiers and their families. Some lawmakers say the situation is an utter disgrace.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. CHRISTOPHER SHAYS, (R) CONNECTICUT: What a horrible message that's being sent to our men and women risking their lives overseas and the families back home that want hem home so dearly. It's going to cost us people who may not want to re-enlist, may not want to serve in our National Guard because of the problems. It just is really dumb all the way around. And it's just shameful.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: The pentagon for its part says it is working to fix the problem.
As we reported earlier, the middle class in this country's being squeezed. The number of personal bankruptcies is at a record high. Part of the reason, credit card debt. That is the subject of our poll tonight. The question, "how much credit card debt do you have? none, less than $5,000, less than $10,000, more than $10,000" We'll have the results later in the show.
Up next, your thoughts on our special report "Exporting America." And an American super power and its cozy relationship with China. Christine Romans will have the report.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Today the largest retailer on earth, Wal-Mart, said its earnings last quarter reached a staggering $2 billion. Wal-Mart last year sole almost a quarter of a trillion dollars in goods. That's more than the output of most countries on the face of the earth. Christine Romans is here now and has more on the power of Wal-Mart.
CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNNfn CORRESPONDENT: Wal-Mart is such a power in the U.S. retail landscape analyst measure retail sales in the United States with and without Wal-Mart. It sells more toys, clothes, even groceries, Lou, than anyone else. Wal-Mart today said it sold $62 billion worth of goods in the most recent quarter. Its the nation's largest private employer, more than 1 million workers who make on average $8 to $10 and hour.
The key to Wal-Mart's success is China. 12 percent of China's exports to this country go to one company, Wal-Mart. The bulk of toys, apparel, footware, all from China. That makes Wal-Mart China's fifth largest market sucking in $12 Billion in Chinese goods a year. Economist Don Straven, (ph) says the fortunes Wal-Mart and China are intertwined. Wal-Mart will get big somewhere more powerful, driving down prices and margins that squeezes out other manufacturers and suppliers who move overseas to compete with the cheap Chinese goods. Jobs will keep moving to China. The cheap toys and sneaker and T- shirts and Americans will keep buying them. Ironicly, Lou, Wal-Mart is making a strategic push into China. It has 31 store there's, selling mostly Chinese goods to the Chinese.
DOBBS: I'm sure it sells mostly American goods here and is also offering high-paying jobs that -- no, huh?
ROMANS: No, not high-paying jobs $8 to $10. It's a large employer. Something interesting about the earnings report. The company pointing out this payroll cycle, the people who work at Wal- Mart are the same people who are its biggest consumer. Those are the people buying goods, more goods right around payroll time which can be a troubling sign for the middle class or lower brackets of the middle class.
DOBBS: OK. Well, it's fascinating. Fifth largest importer of China's worldwide. Amazing. Thanks very much.
Now for a look at some of "Your Thoughts." Many have written in about "Exporting America."
From Bridgeport, West Virginia tonight, "Lou, I just want to thank you and your staff for continuing to expose the numerous problems associated with globalization here in America. It's good to know that someone in the vast corporate owned media empire isn't afraid to tackle this subject." That from Rob Frei.
From San Jose, California, "Lou, thanks for exposing what the new job creation plan of both Republicans and Democrats translates into, McJobs. It's past time we start talking about what's at stake, our quality of McLife." That from Mike Remington.
And a viewer from Kansas admonished me for railing against the export of our jobs and so-called free trade saying, "Any competent economist knows that the movement of capital to the place where it can most efficiently used is an inherent element of capitalism, and that railing against it is likely to be as effective as railing against tornadoes or death." That from Rick Freeman.
Well, Rick, as you say, any competent economist is at issue here. That competent economist would also tell you that in a Democratic free market, like ours, political decisions are necessary to protect a Democratic society. Otherwise, we are simply at the mercy of the golden rule. That is who has the gold makes the rules. And in this country, it's still we, the people, although I sometimes think too many of us occasionally forget that.
From Winterhaven, Florida, "As a liberal, knowing you are conservative, I surprise myself watching your program for fair reporting. You are a rarity on national television. Juanita Franklin. Juanita, thank you.
And from Mansfield, Louisiana, "I was glad to hear that at least congressman Kucinich, among the presidential candidates, would recommend withdrawing from WTO and NAFTA. I thought had found my candidate, until he recommended amnesty for the 10 million illegal aliens living here." That from Dorothy Phillips.
And from Clarksville, Georgia, "Mr. Dobbs, yours is the best news program on TV. If Fox News would like to know what fair and balanced really is, they should watch your show." Charles, we recommend that for just about everybody.
Thank you. We love hearing from you. E-mail us from at loudobbs@cnn.com.
And a remainder to please vote in our poll tone. The question, how much credit card debt do you have? None, less than $5,000, less than $10,000, or more than $10,000. Cast your vote at cnn.com/lou. We'll have the results for you later in the show.
Coming up next -- my guest says Iraq is ultimately a test case for what is popularly known as neo-conservatism thinking. And that up to this point, the policies have been a success. Lawrence Kaplan, senior editor of "The New Republic" will join us. Please stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ANNOUNCER: LOU DOBBS TONIGHT continues. Here again, Lou Dobbs.
DOBBS: Political analysts have sparked a new debate about the fate and condition of neo-conservatism. Neocons as they are called played a key role in many decisions of the Bush administration, including and perhaps especially, the war against Saddam Hussein. My next guest says claims that the neo-conservatism movement and moment has passed amount to wishful thinking. Joining me Lawrence Kaplan, he is senior editor of "The New Republic." Good to have you with Lawrence.
LAWRENCE KAPLAN, "THE NEW REPUBLIC: Thanks for having me.
DOBBS: You have writ that neo-conservatism will be judged by the results Baghdad And Iraq. How do you think you're doing?
KAPLAN: Well, I'm not sure how I'm doing but as a movement I'm fairly certain that obituaries for neo-conservatism are decidedly premature. After all, essential elements of this creed, which counsels a robust and unapolegetic and very idealist approach to the international scene have all been enshrined in official policy and neo-conservatives occupy key positions in this administration. So I think all these eulogies for neo-conservatism are somewhat counterintuitive and somewhat offbase.
I think Iraq, however, which even by its neo-conservative architects was really advertised as a test case for the ideology, I think, if Iraq goes south I'm afraid the ideology will be discredited with it.
DOBBS: As well it should if it leads to failure, right?
KAPLAN: Oh, no, no, I agree. I mean, this war was really viewed in many quarters, particularly among many administration officials, as really a test case for certain propositions, among them the idea that democracy and Islam aren't inherently compatible and we would be welcomed in Iraq.
DOBBS: I'm, sorry, the tenet the being that democracy and Islam are what?
KAPLAN: Are not inherently incompatible, that they can actually -- you can create democracy in an Arab and Islamic country. And if -- I think if events continue to go this way, these beliefs, understandably and justifiably, get called into question.
DOBBS: Two elements, tenets of neo-conservatism thought, regime change, the preemptive strikes against Saddam Hussein, is that -- if those are principal tenets of neo-conservatism thinking and this now, as we all understand it to be, a far more dangerous world than we recognized before September 11, what does that suggest for foreign policy on the part of the administration which has, as you suggest, neocons in very important roles particularly in the defense department toward Iran, toward North Korea?
KAPLAN: Well, I think it's fairly clear what it suggests. Actually the Bush doctrine, which, as you mentioned, includes preemption and regime change, arguably applies more clearly to Iran and North Korea than it did to Iraq.
No one argues that Iran and North Korea do not possess weapons of mass destruction. It's fairly clear that they do. So here really are test cases for perception. But after Iraq I think there might be a sense of a boy who cried wolf since we haven't found weapons there. And the doctrine itself really does get called into question.
DOBBS: Doctrines, often are -- they morph over time, they are mutated to give way to new circumstances. The neo-conservatism thinking is basically a go it alone approach in both foreign poll circumstance geopolitics and in military operations. Is there some movement within the neoconservatives to adapt to change? Is there any -- is there a sufficient life in that school of thought to be adaptive and to be vigorous in a new direction?
KAPLAN: I -- flexibility is not something that those who are typically called neo-conservatives are known for. And I think in this case, it's not merely stubbornness. I think it's a conviction that the world, as it is, really won't allow for anything other than a very assertive and unapologetic approach.
I mean, after all, the critics of neoconservatives like to talk about multilateralism and soft power. It's not clear that those strategies would work in the world today. So, I think in many ways, the world hasn't given the United States much of an option here.
DOBBS: Lawrence Kaplan, we thank you for being with us. Hope you'll come back soon.
Tonight's quote from a French government official who today made comments about the relationship between France and the United States, and we quote, "there is no bitterness at all. The relationship between France and the United States is the relation between friends and allies. Between friends, you never have bitterness. You may disagree, you may not be in a position to understand issues of the other, but you think it is your responsibility to stick to your priciples, to stick to the idea you have of your self and of the relationship with your friend." That from French Foreign Minister, Dominique de Villopon.
There's still time to vote in our poll tonight. The question, "how much credit card debt do you have?" None, less than $5,000, less than $10,000, or more than $10,000. Cast your vote at cnn.com/lou. We'll have the results coming right up.
Also ahead, San Francisco, home to an endangered species? That's what one governor seems to think. That story and more still ahead. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: The results of our poll. The question, "how much credit card debt do you have?" 53 percent of you said none, 20 percent said less than $5,000, 8 percent said less than $10,000, 18 percent more than $10,000.
Finally tonight, Florida's Governor Bush apparently isn't planning a run for office in California any time soon. In a meeting with his cabinet Wednesday the governor joked that the people of San Francisco are an endangered species and said that was probably good news for the country.
A spokesman for the governor's office said Governor Bush was referring to the endangered status of Republicans in California. San Francisco's Mayor Willie Brown didn't make too much of the comment. He noted San Franciscans have a pretty good sense of humor. He went on to say he did want one thing from Jeb Bush, and that would be an alligater to be a companion for one of the supervisors there in San Francisco.
That's our show for tonight. Thanks for being with us. Tomorrow in our special report "Exporting America" we take a look at companies that are abusing high tech visa programs. We'll also be joined by presidential hopeful Dick Gephardt. And Felix Roight, the former ambassador to France. We'll be talking about the state of this economy and its prospects for the years ahead.
For all of us here, good night from New York. "ANDERSON COOPER 360" is coming right up.
END
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Class Under Siege; Neo-Conservatism Will Rise Or Fall Based On Success In Iraq>
Aired November 13, 2003 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT for Thursday, November 13. Here now, Lou Dobbs.
LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening.
Tonight, Operation Iron Hammer, day two of the U.S. offensive against terrorists and insurgents in Baghdad. Jamie McIntyre at the Pentagon will report on the military significance of these strikes and their effectiveness.
Weird weather sweeping across America, bringing five inches of rain and hail to Southern California in three hours, gale-force winds across the Midwest and much of the East, and nearly one million people without power.
"Exporting America" tonight -- fighting back against the massive outflow of jobs to cheap labor markets overseas. Casey Wian with our special report on the companies trying to keep Americans on the job.
And broken borders -- tonight, the federal government has a solution to the illegal alien crisis. They would make illegal aliens legal. Lisa Sylvester will have the report.
But first tonight, America's middle class is under siege. Families are working harder than ever to get by. But some families are finding it all but impossible to stay in the middle class. They're being squeezed by higher mortgage costs, rising health care payments, expensive child care and fewer well-paying jobs. And the number of personal bankruptcies is at a record height and is soaring. That is just part of the story.
Kitty Pilgrim reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KITTY PILGRIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): If a family of four makes between $30,000 and $100,000 a year, they're in the middle class. That's a little less than half of the nation's population. And these days, they're being squeezed harder than ever.
ELIZABETH WARREN, AUTHOR, "THE TWO-INCOME TRAP": Today's two- income family is struggling to stay in the middle class. They've got both mom and dad at work. And, even so, they're barely hanging on by their fingernails. PILGRIM: Warren says about 20 percent of the middle-class families are what is called house poor, spending more than a third of their take-home salary on housing costs. Housing payment, mortgage, or rent is up by 69 percent in the last 25 years.
According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, the average man's salary, inflation-adjusted, is just over 1 percent in that time. Another pressing cost, out-of-pocket health care spending for a family of four. Even after the employer provides basic coverage, it's up 61 percent over the last 30 years. Families have increased their working hours. More wives have needed to go to work just to cover the basics.
JARED BERNSTEIN, ECONOMIC POLICY INSTITUTE: The middle-class time squeeze is very much a function of a sharp trend in increased hours worked per year, not per week, but per year, by middle-income families. Those families have added about three to four months per year of extra work over the couple of decades -- the last couple of decades. It's primarily working wives, more of whom have come into the labor force.
PILGRIM: Child care is an added expense. These days, average day care for a toddler, $4,300 a year. To send a child to a full-time preschool, $5,300, more than it usually costs to send a child to a state college.
How about that second car to get mom to work? Payments and insurance, $4,100 per year, per car, times two. Many say it's a misperception that families are overspending. They're not.
WARREN: These are not families who are profligate. These are families who are going bankrupt over mortgages and health insurance and day care, not families who are going broke over lattes and expensive tennis shoes.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: Two million will file for bankruptcy this year. And by the time they do, they typically have about year's salary charged up on their credit cards -- Lou.
DOBBS: And, unfortunately, as I said at the outset, this is only part of the story. The pressure on working Americans in this country, we've got to continue to watch this. We'll be reporting on it extensively.
Kitty, thank you very much -- Kitty Pilgrim.
Middle-class homeowners, at least, are benefiting from another economic trend, rising home prices across the country. Home prices across the country soared at a record pace from July to September. It's the strong quarter of growth in more than two decades, the biggest jump in prices in California's Riverside and San Bernardino counties, both near Los Angeles, where the average home price jumped more than 26 percent.
Tonight, our special report, "Exporting America." Americans are on a buying binge for imported goods, exporting U.S. dollars at a record-breaking pace in the month of September. New figures today show this country's trade deficit with the rest of the world swelled to $41 billion. And it now appears that last year's record will be shattered.
Peter Viles reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
PETER VILES, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It was a buying binge by Americans, but we spent the money on foreign cars, on foreign oil, clothing made in China, television sets made overseas. The trade deficit hit a staggering $41 billion in September. Year-to-date, it now stands at $366 billion. That's up 21 percent over last year's record-setting pace, which means the United States is basically giving away part of its economic recovery.
LAKSHMAN ACHUTHAN, ECONOMIC CYCLE RESEARCH INSTITUTE: A lot of the stimulus is essentially leaking out of the U.S. through this demand for imports and stimulating foreign economies, in particular manufacturing sources, like China.
VILES: The China deficit is the biggest, $89.7 billion through September. We're running a $67 billion deficit with the European Union, $40 billion with Canada, just under $31 billion with Mexico.
Still, the Bush administration, while it has been pushing China on some issues, has maintained that increased trade generally helps the American economy.
DON EVANS, COMMERCE SECRETARY: The CEA just had a report that I looked at that said, when our imports increase in a sector of our economy, jobs also increase in that sector of our economy. And it's because how integrated and interlinked this global economy is becoming.
VILES: But others are worried. Warren Buffett says the trade deficit has caused him to start betting against the dollar. And former Wall Street guru Felix Rohatyn says we now -- quote -- "run the risk of a possible crisis of the dollar.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
VILES: As the deficit rises, some trade critics have suggested a moratorium on new trade agreements. But the Bush administration is, right now, negotiating another one of these big deals. They call this CAFTA, son of NAFTA. It would expand NAFTA down to Central America -- Lou.
DOBBS: And, of course, to be followed by the free trade agreement that would take over the whole hemisphere.
VILES: All of the Americas.
OK, thank you very much, Peter Viles. DOBBS: Well, the exporting of America, as we have been reporting here for months, includes the shipment of hundreds of thousands of American jobs to cheap overseas labor markets. That shipment has simply devastated manufacturing and high-tech workers in this country.
However, we also have some good news tonight. There are some American companies trying to hard to be responsible corporate citizens, trying very hard to keep Americans on the job. And they're finding that keeping those jobs at home is good business.
Casey Wian reports from Pomona, California.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Hayward Pool Products considered moving some operations overseas.
PAUL ADELBERG, V.P. OF MANUFACTURING, HAYWARD POOL PRODUCTS: We could actually produce a product more cost-effectively, with better quality, more reliability and less risk than going offshore.
WIAN: Hayward transformed itself using the Kaizen manufacturing process first popularized in Japan by Toyota. Simple changes, such as color-coded tags for parts management and a redesigned factory floor, increased productivity by 37 percent. Almost nothing is wasted. Even tiny scraps of plastic trimmed from parts are recycled.
(on camera): It used to take Hayward workers about an hour and a half to switch out one of these giant injection molds. Since adopting the Kaizen remanufacturing techniques, the job can be done in less than 20 minutes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Bring the set of parameters to the specifications and it will help us do a quicker start-up.
WIAN (voice-over): And Hayward is not stopping there. This week, a group of Kaizen-trained executives from other companies are helping figure out how to cut that time to 10 minutes.
WILLIAM SCHWARTZ, TBM CONSULTING: We see a tremendous migration of production work to offshore entities around the world, Mexico and especially in China. And companies are using these strategies to counter that flow, to be more productive, to be more cost-effective, and to keep jobs here in the U.S.
WIAN: Software developer Integnology is one tech company bucking the offshoring trend. CEO Basheer Janjua, a U.S. citizen, says there is a large supply of displaced American I.T. workers with more skills than their overseas counterparts.
BASHEER JANJUA, CEO, INTEGNOLOGY: I would rather give them a chance, because, if you have master work, you have a masterpiece. Yes, it's cheap, but quality's cheap. It's late. It's not on schedule. You miss the market. So do the math. In total, you're losing. WIAN: Web site designer M3iworks doesn't bother bidding for business that's extremely price-sensitive and instead focuses on clients seeking local customer service.
LINDA GOLD, CEO, M3IWORKS: Programmers in India are making anywhere from $10 to $15. Our programmers here are making anywhere from $40 to $120 an hour. So, if I have to compete on price, I don't enter the contest.
WIAN: One way she levels the labor cost playing field is by using more college interns.
Casey Wian, CNN, Pomona, California.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: From corporations trying to keep American jobs in this country to the companies that are giving them away to cheap foreign markets. Tomorrow, in our special report, "Exporting America,' we look at the worst abusers of the H-1B and L1 visa programs. These companies have put hundreds of thousands of Americans out of work and changed their lives forever. Join us tomorrow night.
Coming up, "Exporting America" -- one expert who says America's relationship with India will be a win-win situation. Narayan Keshavan of the Indian-American Forum for Political Education joins us.
Then, broken borders -- tonight, a proposal in Washington to make it even easier for illegal aliens to cross our nation's borders and stay. Lisa Sylvester will have that story.
And Operation Iron Hammer -- the commander of U.S. forces in Iraq says insurgents will not break the will of U.S. forces. Senior Pentagon correspondent Jamie McIntyre will report from Washington.
Please stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: A lot of the food that ends up on our kitchen tables has been harvested and produced by illegal aliens. They've become a shadow society, some 10 million of them. And many of them work for cheap wages for large agribusinesses. Instead of enforcing current immigration lawyers requiring them to leave the country, the Bush administration is now actively considering a guest worker program.
Lisa Sylvester reports from Washington.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LISA SYLVESTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Secretary of State Colin Powell wrapped up two-day meetings with his Mexican counterpart, the topic, cross-border migration.
COLIN POWELL, SECRETARY OF STATE: And we're going to look for ways to move forward step by step to make sure that we can make it safe, legal, and, in all other ways, respectful of our need for labor.
SYLVESTER: That's as far as Secretary Powell was willing to go on the record. But the Bush administration has hinted support for plans to give legal status to 500,000 illegal aliens who work in the agricultural sector.
A bill in Congress co-sponsored by Chris Cannon would let illegal aliens enter the country for seasonal work on farms, with the understanding they would go home after a few months. Another bill backed by Senator John McCain goes even further, setting up a guest worker programming for all 10 million illegal aliens in the country.
REP. CHRIS CANNON (R), UTAH: Currently, a huge amount of work that's done on farms and in dairies and in producing vegetables and fruits, a huge amount of that is done by people who are here, frankly, illegally. And, of course, the benefit of that is cheap food.
SYLVESTER: Cheap food, but it also means lower wages. Immigration experts say making it easier for workers to cross the border would send a flood of cheap labor into the United States. And there's another concern.
DAN STEIN, FEDERATION FOR AMERICAN IMMIGRATION REFORM: A guest is someone who comes in and leaves. If I invite my uncle and aunt, I expect them, at some point -- love them to pieces -- but I expect them to leave. Under these bills, these -- quote -- "guests," they're never going to go home.
SYLVESTER: In fact, both proposed measures in Congress would allow the guest workers to apply for legal permanent resident status after a set period.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SYLVESTER: Whether the workers are here legally or illegally, a substantial amount of the money earned is sent back home, $14 billion a year. That is more than the money Mexico takes in from any other source, except for oil -- Lou.
DOBBS: Lisa, thank you very much -- Lisa Sylvester.
We've reported extensively about illegal aliens from Mexico using Mexican identification cards to obtain state driver's licenses, to open bank accounts. Now several other Latin American countries are planning to give the same kind of identification cards to their own nationals in the United States. Guatemala and Ecuador recently began handing out their own I.D. cards. And Honduras is expected to follow suit soon. Nicaragua, El Salvador and Brazil are also considering the idea.
Many banks and police departments accept those cards as identification, despite the fact that the Department of Homeland Security has warned that they pose a threat. And no one in Washington can apparently answer the question we've asked, which is, why is it that illegal aliens can sometimes get U.S. driver's licenses in this country, while Americans in other parts of the world are required to have an international driver's license?
Coming up next, "Exporting America," our special report, continues tonight. Narayan Keshavan of the Indian-American Forum For Political Action and Education says exporting American jobs to India makes economic sense for the United States.
And General David Grange is on point tonight. Operation Iron Hammer the, U.S. answering a recent wave of guerrilla attacks in Iraq with a new strategy. General David Grange on point coming up.
Please stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: More than 350,000 American technology jobs have been outsourced to India and to other countries as well. My next guest says it would be ideal for those jobs to stay in this country. But he says outsourcing them can help some Americans keep their job.
Narayan Keshavan is the executive director of the Indian-American Forum For Political Education and joins me now.
It's good to have you with us.
NARAYAN KESHAVAN, EXEC. DIRECTOR, INDIAN AMERICAN FORUM FOR POLITICAL EDUCATION: It's pleasure to be with you.
DOBBS: It is counterintuitive to say that outsourcing U.S. jobs overseas, whether to India, to the Philippines, Ireland, that's somehow good for the U.S. How is that?
KESHAVAN: Well, the name of the game is wealth creation.
Once wealth creation is interest process -- first of all, I don't agree with the notion that outsourcing is taking the job from our country to another country, especially to India or to a sister democracy. I personally believe that these jobs are not being done here properly. It's not economical to do it here, and that's why those jobs are moving to another place.
DOBBS: Well, and I would take exception to that and say to you, the only reason they're going to India is because people in India, in most cases, are working for something like 80 percent to 90 percent less than their American counterpart and U.S. corporations are simply seeking out a cheaper labor pool. You certainly wouldn't resist that, would you?
KESHAVAN: Cost is one of the factors in any CEO's calculation of running businesses, Lou.
DOBBS: Of late, it seems principal in their consideration.
KESHAVAN: Well, they are answerable to their stakeholders. And, naturally -- it is not just some sweatshop that's being run in India, you know. There's Microsoft. There's Oracle. There's Sun Microsystems there, IBM there. DOBBS: Well, there's GE Capital, 15,000 people in Delhi. It goes on and on. McKenzie has a full operation, as it is advising. Accenture has a full operation advising these clever CEOs, who we pay a great deal of money in this country, to show them how to lower their labor costs.
(CROSSTALK)
KESHAVAN: You would concede that these CEOs are not fools.
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: Oh, I would say that they're not fools. I would say, in most cases, the boards of directors, who pay them egregiously high salaries and allow to export U.S. jobs, just on the basis of cost, they're the fools.
KESHAVAN: I'm not here to defend outrageous salaries.
(LAUGHTER)
DOBBS: OK.
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: What I'm saying to you is, I would not -- I love India. I love the Indian people. It's a remarkable culture and society.
When I say that this is idiotic on any basis, I'm saying -- I'm not blaming India. I'm blaming the idiots here, who are without reference -- you talked about stakeholders. There's no more important stakeholder than the customer and the employee.
KESHAVAN: First of all, let me finish my thought.
DOBBS: Sure.
KESHAVAN: That, once these jobs are gone there, that makes those companies viable over here, in the sense that they stay in business. The high-end jobs are retained here and the tax base is retained here. Otherwise, the whole company may have gone under and, thereby, the entire staff of the company would have been out of job.
At least now, a portion of the job remains here and a portion of the job remains, say, in India, Ireland, or Israel, or wherever. And the process of wealth creation, which is where I began, continues. And I think that's a good thing. So I don't think we should look at outsourcing as just taking job from one place to another. That is what is my argument. Now...
DOBBS: But that's precisely what's going on, isn't it? We are watching, in this instance, and principally with India, high-value jobs, manufacturing jobs, that are being outsourced. And we're now talking about high-value technology jobs primarily. We have programmers in this country, many of them Indian-Americans, who are out of work because these jobs are outsourced. KESHAVAN: I know a few.
DOBBS: Precisely my point.
KESHAVAN: Yes.
DOBBS: What is the sense of the United States giving up its middle class to outsource these jobs? I just don't quite -- if one has sort of a global view of the world that suggests that individual national interests don't matter, I can perhaps get there. But, as an American citizen, I can't.
KESHAVAN: Yes, I can understand the sad stories that I have read, including in my own community over here.
DOBBS: Sure.
KESHAVAN: But the fact of the matter is, the entire trade situation is -- and you are the ones who have been talking about free trade all over the globe, open up your market, and blah, blah, blah, liberalize your trade, match up to the standards of us.
DOBBS: And it's worked pretty well for India, hasn't it?
(CROSSTALK)
KESHAVAN: It's worked pretty well for India. And now you might even say, use the word, it's biting up in the
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: Exactly. We're running a significant deficit with India.
KESHAVAN: That's the reality of today. And that's the challenge. But, Lou, we have to look at it this way. The jobs that are going there are, No. 1, keeping the companies here viable, second, creating wealth.
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: You're not suggesting that IBM, General Electric, McKenzie, Dell Computer, that these companies would not be viable if they weren't outsourcing those jobs.
KESHAVAN: Much of their operations over here are not viable. Otherwise, they would not have brought it from here, because the CEOs also know the backlash of politics in this country. So I think you should talk to them. They'll give you much better reasons.
DOBBS: I do. I assure you I do.
KESHAVAN: I know you must, Lou.
DOBBS: And when I ask them, the answer is always the same, those who are honest and straightforward. The reason is because Indian labor is cheaper than U.S. labor. (CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: And there seems to be a disassociation on the part of many of those people between the fact that an employee in this country is also a consumer and the consumption part of our economy is two- thirds of this economy.
KESHAVAN: No, that -- I agree with you that the labor in India is cheaper than this country. But the brains are as smart, if not smarter, in high technology there. The intellectual capital of India is enormous. Their talent, their skills, their work ethic is
(CROSSTALK)
KESHAVAN: ... in the world.
DOBBS: Absolutely, and wonderful entrepreneurs, wonderful mercantilists.
(CROSSTALK)
KESHAVAN: Right.
Look, if these guys hadn't come to this country, the Indian- Americans, to Silicon Valley, you wouldn't be having Hotmail to use. I'm sure you use that. I use it. You wouldn't be having Pentium chip here. That was designed by an Indian-American. You wouldn't probably see such a very prosperous Microsoft, minus the Indian-Americans who work
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: Now you're going to get a lot of people upset, because some people might not like to see Microsoft quite as prosperous. But we'll have to put that up against the Indian fellow at Sun, against the Indian fellow at Intel, against -- but, anyway, the point is, those jobs weren't outsourced. That was talent that came to this country to work. And it's worked very well for all of us.
I hope you'll come back soon as we discuss this, because this issue, as you know, is becoming -- moving to the forefront.
KESHAVAN: It's going to be a hot political potato this election season.
DOBBS: Right.
KESHAVAN: Any time you want me, I'm available.
DOBBS: We will want to talk often. Thank you.
KESHAVAN: Thank you, Lou.
DOBBS: Thank you. Tonight's thought is on opening America's borders to trade, free trade: "To realize the full possibilities of this economy, we must reach beyond our own borders to shape the revolution that is tearing down barriers and building new networks among nations and individuals and economies and cultures: globalization. It's the central reality of our time" -- that from former President Bill Clinton.
Coming up next: The United States answers the latest wave of guerrilla attacks in Iraq with what it terms an Iron Hammer. Senior Pentagon correspondent Jamie McIntyre, White House correspondent Suzanne Malveaux will report.
Please stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Some strange weather patterns hit parts of the country over the past 24 hours. Lightning lit up the sky in Southern California last night, as a freak storm dumped five inches of rain and hail in a matter of just three hours, hail still on the ground in Southern California tonight. That storm knocked out power to more than 100,000 homes and businesses.
Another storm system is blowing eastward tonight. It's knocked down power lines in the Midwest and the Great Lakes region, nearly one million people without electricity. A tornado touched down in northeast Ohio as well. Winds in the Northeast and mid-Atlantic caused flight delays, gusts up to 70 miles an hour. Some snow has fallen now in parts of Upstate New York.
In Alabama, judgment day for Chief Justice Roy Moore. Alabama's highest judge, who ignited controversy when he installed a monument to the Ten Commandments in the state courthouse, today was removed from office. Alabama's Court of the Judiciary today voted unanimously to remove Moore, saying that he willfully and publicly defied a federal court order to remove that statue. After the decision, Moore told CNN he would do it all over again.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROY MOORE, FORMER ALABAMA CHIEF JUSTICE: Absolutely no regrets. We've done what we were sworn to do. When I took office, I said I would uphold the moral foundation of our law. That, I have done. I have not denied God. And that's exactly what they asked me to do to hold office. And I said, I could not. They removed me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: Moore said he is considering an appeal. He will make an announcement next week, he says, that could alter the course of this country.
In Iraq tonight, U.S. troops and aircraft launched a second straight night of attacks against suspected enemy positions in Baghdad. Earlier, General John Abizaid, head of central command, said no more than 5,000 insurgents are taking part in these attacks against coalition forces. He said the military will break and defeat those insurgents.
Senior Pentagon correspondent, Jamie McIntyre, has the report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN SR. PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): While the CIA is warning in a secret report that insurgents may be winning converts among average Iraqis by successfully attacking the U.S. and its allies, the top U.S. commander competently insists, victory is assured.
GEN. JOHN ABIZAID, COMMANDER, CENTRAL COMMAND: They're a despicable bunch of thugs that will be defeated. There's absolutely no doubt in my mind that with patience, perseverance and courage we will see this thing through.
MCINTYRE: General Abizaid puts the number of forces opposing the U.S. at fewer than 5, 000, mostly Saddam loyalists with with a few foreign fighters mixed in.
But, he concedes, they're sitting on piles of cash and ammunition and are being coordinated at a high level. Although some U.S. commanders are beginning to believe Saddam Hussein himself could be directing the insurgency, Abizaid dismisses the specualtion that what's happening now is the result of some prewar master plan.
ABIZAID: Saddam Hussein is one of the most incompetent military leaders in the history of the world. And to give him credit to think that somehow or over other he planned this is absolutely beyond my comprehension.
MCINTYRE: With U.S. warplanes pounding a suspected resistance stronghold for a second night in Baghdad, Abizaid insisted the get tough tactics would be balanced to avoided a backlash from Iraqi citizens.
But other military experts questioned whether the crackdown might be counterproductive.
COL. SAM GARDINER (RET.), U.S. AIR FORCE: Every time the United States kicks down another door, puts a sack over another Iraqi head, bombs with a C-130 gunship or F-16, that support for the insurgent goes up, not down.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MCINTYRE: Abizaid says the insurgents are trying to break the will of the Americans and are attacking now in the north and the south, outside the so-called Ba'athist Triangle, in an effort to make it appear that no place in Iraq is safe. But he insists that they will fail and that the United States is in no rush to leave Iraq before it's stable -- Lou.
DOBBS: How long does he say the United States will be there?
MCINTYRE: Rtill no projection on how long this is going to take, although the tone of his briefing today suggested many years.
DOBBS: Jamie McIntyre, senior Pentagon correspondent, thank you.
President Bush today said he wants to encourage Iraqis to take more responsibility for the governance of their country. Yesterday, the president told the U.S. administrator in Iraq, Paul Bremer, to accelerate the political transition to a new Iraqi leadership.
White House correspondent Suzanne Malveaux has the report -- Suzanne.
SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Lou, after two days of urgent talks with the pointman in Iraq, President Bush acknowledged today a significant change in U.S. strategy. Ambassador Paul Bremer to bow back to Baghdad, present the Iraqi people with a number of options.
But the main point here is that the White House wants the iraqi governing council to create an interim Iraqi authority to turn the power back to the Iraqi people as quickly as possible. What is the time line of this? National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice saying that hopefully it would happen well short of a year. The idea is this authority would have power immediately in the day-to-day operations of Iraq as well as security.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CONDOLEEZZA RICE, NATL. SECURITY ADVISER: It's not a matter of getting the U.S. out of there. It's a matter of recognizing that the Iraqis want to take more authority and responsibility. We believe they can take more authority and responsibility.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MALVEAUX: Now, of course, questions about the politics of all of this, the timing of all of this. Some people asking and perhaps even suggesting, that with an Iraqi authority in power now that it could mean a possible scale-down of troops before president bush seeks his re-election bid any bex november. White house officials say it's not politics driving the change in strategy. Bush called the prime minister of italy berlusconi to give his conDolences for yesterday's attack. Lou?
DOBBS: Suzanne, thank you. Suzanne malveaux from the white house.
As the war continues in Iraq U.S. troops are also fighting remnants of al Qaeda in the mountains of Afghanistan. Those troops are fighting at elevations up to 13,000 feet. General John Abizaid said that fight in Afghanistan is as difficult as the war in Iraq. The general said U.S. Troops are closing in on the minute. He said they will destroy al Qaeda.
Tonight the military's new tactics in Iraq. Commanders using ground forces AC-130 gunship, Apache helicopters against suspected terrorist cells in Baghdad and elsewhere. Joining me from Chicago, General David Grange. Good to have you with us.
GENERAL DAVID GRANGE (RET), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Thank you, Lou.
DOBBS: These changes in tactics, precipitated by the attacks on the Italian military police compound?
GRANGE: Well, Lou, it may have some effect. But really it's a surge in operations. A lot of the tactics are remaining the same. They use more force. There's not much choice. During Ramadan the U.S. Forces and other coalition forces reduced the tempo of operations to honor this religious holiday where the insurgents used it as a means to increase attacks. So I think the coalition forces had no other choice but to counter that aggressiveness with more offensive operations.
DOBBS: You heard general Abizaid say that he would not give Saddam Hussein credit for these coordinated attacks that have risen to 35 to 40 a day now. Exactly whom should be credited or blamed?
GRANGE: Well, I think that General Abizaid is correct that he didn't plan it earlier. I think now, if he's alive, he probably is, and some of his other henchmen are taking advantage of the conditions on the ground right now in order to use the insurgents the way they are. He made a statement there's less than 5,000.
Well, 5,000 insurgents on a battlefield fighting conventional war, the coalition forces can take them down in less than a day. But 5,000 insurgents with a cellular structure in the cracks and crevices throughout Iraq, a long, tough fight.
DOBBS: You're an expert with considerable experience, distinguished experience in guerrilla warfare. Is there anything that you see here that suggests to you that this is going to be in any way a reasonably quick operation whether it be Iron Hammer or operation by another name? Is it something that can be carried out in a matter of months or as just reported is it something that we should expect to see go on for some years?
GRANGE: Lou, I believe some years. I think that the big part of the fighting can be solved, for instance, the surge period is very critical to both sides between now and December, let's say. You're going to have terrorist attacks, some guerrilla operations for a long, long time to come.
But right now it's critical during this period of transition where we're fighting for the will of the American people and the will of the Iraqi people that a surge of operations takes place to eliminate most of these enemy soldiers.
DOBBS: General David Grange, thank you very much.
GRANGE: My pleasure.
DOBBS: Soldiers with the National Guard are fighting a battle on a number of fronts now. A Congressional report out today says aside from risking their lives in both Iraq and Afghanistan, the soldiers are fighting with the Pentagon just to get paid.
National Guard troops say they're not being paid the right amount or even being paid on time. The general accounting office says the Pentagon's pay process is having, what it terms, a profound financial impact on individual soldiers and their families. Some lawmakers say the situation is an utter disgrace.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. CHRISTOPHER SHAYS, (R) CONNECTICUT: What a horrible message that's being sent to our men and women risking their lives overseas and the families back home that want hem home so dearly. It's going to cost us people who may not want to re-enlist, may not want to serve in our National Guard because of the problems. It just is really dumb all the way around. And it's just shameful.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: The pentagon for its part says it is working to fix the problem.
As we reported earlier, the middle class in this country's being squeezed. The number of personal bankruptcies is at a record high. Part of the reason, credit card debt. That is the subject of our poll tonight. The question, "how much credit card debt do you have? none, less than $5,000, less than $10,000, more than $10,000" We'll have the results later in the show.
Up next, your thoughts on our special report "Exporting America." And an American super power and its cozy relationship with China. Christine Romans will have the report.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Today the largest retailer on earth, Wal-Mart, said its earnings last quarter reached a staggering $2 billion. Wal-Mart last year sole almost a quarter of a trillion dollars in goods. That's more than the output of most countries on the face of the earth. Christine Romans is here now and has more on the power of Wal-Mart.
CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNNfn CORRESPONDENT: Wal-Mart is such a power in the U.S. retail landscape analyst measure retail sales in the United States with and without Wal-Mart. It sells more toys, clothes, even groceries, Lou, than anyone else. Wal-Mart today said it sold $62 billion worth of goods in the most recent quarter. Its the nation's largest private employer, more than 1 million workers who make on average $8 to $10 and hour.
The key to Wal-Mart's success is China. 12 percent of China's exports to this country go to one company, Wal-Mart. The bulk of toys, apparel, footware, all from China. That makes Wal-Mart China's fifth largest market sucking in $12 Billion in Chinese goods a year. Economist Don Straven, (ph) says the fortunes Wal-Mart and China are intertwined. Wal-Mart will get big somewhere more powerful, driving down prices and margins that squeezes out other manufacturers and suppliers who move overseas to compete with the cheap Chinese goods. Jobs will keep moving to China. The cheap toys and sneaker and T- shirts and Americans will keep buying them. Ironicly, Lou, Wal-Mart is making a strategic push into China. It has 31 store there's, selling mostly Chinese goods to the Chinese.
DOBBS: I'm sure it sells mostly American goods here and is also offering high-paying jobs that -- no, huh?
ROMANS: No, not high-paying jobs $8 to $10. It's a large employer. Something interesting about the earnings report. The company pointing out this payroll cycle, the people who work at Wal- Mart are the same people who are its biggest consumer. Those are the people buying goods, more goods right around payroll time which can be a troubling sign for the middle class or lower brackets of the middle class.
DOBBS: OK. Well, it's fascinating. Fifth largest importer of China's worldwide. Amazing. Thanks very much.
Now for a look at some of "Your Thoughts." Many have written in about "Exporting America."
From Bridgeport, West Virginia tonight, "Lou, I just want to thank you and your staff for continuing to expose the numerous problems associated with globalization here in America. It's good to know that someone in the vast corporate owned media empire isn't afraid to tackle this subject." That from Rob Frei.
From San Jose, California, "Lou, thanks for exposing what the new job creation plan of both Republicans and Democrats translates into, McJobs. It's past time we start talking about what's at stake, our quality of McLife." That from Mike Remington.
And a viewer from Kansas admonished me for railing against the export of our jobs and so-called free trade saying, "Any competent economist knows that the movement of capital to the place where it can most efficiently used is an inherent element of capitalism, and that railing against it is likely to be as effective as railing against tornadoes or death." That from Rick Freeman.
Well, Rick, as you say, any competent economist is at issue here. That competent economist would also tell you that in a Democratic free market, like ours, political decisions are necessary to protect a Democratic society. Otherwise, we are simply at the mercy of the golden rule. That is who has the gold makes the rules. And in this country, it's still we, the people, although I sometimes think too many of us occasionally forget that.
From Winterhaven, Florida, "As a liberal, knowing you are conservative, I surprise myself watching your program for fair reporting. You are a rarity on national television. Juanita Franklin. Juanita, thank you.
And from Mansfield, Louisiana, "I was glad to hear that at least congressman Kucinich, among the presidential candidates, would recommend withdrawing from WTO and NAFTA. I thought had found my candidate, until he recommended amnesty for the 10 million illegal aliens living here." That from Dorothy Phillips.
And from Clarksville, Georgia, "Mr. Dobbs, yours is the best news program on TV. If Fox News would like to know what fair and balanced really is, they should watch your show." Charles, we recommend that for just about everybody.
Thank you. We love hearing from you. E-mail us from at loudobbs@cnn.com.
And a remainder to please vote in our poll tone. The question, how much credit card debt do you have? None, less than $5,000, less than $10,000, or more than $10,000. Cast your vote at cnn.com/lou. We'll have the results for you later in the show.
Coming up next -- my guest says Iraq is ultimately a test case for what is popularly known as neo-conservatism thinking. And that up to this point, the policies have been a success. Lawrence Kaplan, senior editor of "The New Republic" will join us. Please stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ANNOUNCER: LOU DOBBS TONIGHT continues. Here again, Lou Dobbs.
DOBBS: Political analysts have sparked a new debate about the fate and condition of neo-conservatism. Neocons as they are called played a key role in many decisions of the Bush administration, including and perhaps especially, the war against Saddam Hussein. My next guest says claims that the neo-conservatism movement and moment has passed amount to wishful thinking. Joining me Lawrence Kaplan, he is senior editor of "The New Republic." Good to have you with Lawrence.
LAWRENCE KAPLAN, "THE NEW REPUBLIC: Thanks for having me.
DOBBS: You have writ that neo-conservatism will be judged by the results Baghdad And Iraq. How do you think you're doing?
KAPLAN: Well, I'm not sure how I'm doing but as a movement I'm fairly certain that obituaries for neo-conservatism are decidedly premature. After all, essential elements of this creed, which counsels a robust and unapolegetic and very idealist approach to the international scene have all been enshrined in official policy and neo-conservatives occupy key positions in this administration. So I think all these eulogies for neo-conservatism are somewhat counterintuitive and somewhat offbase.
I think Iraq, however, which even by its neo-conservative architects was really advertised as a test case for the ideology, I think, if Iraq goes south I'm afraid the ideology will be discredited with it.
DOBBS: As well it should if it leads to failure, right?
KAPLAN: Oh, no, no, I agree. I mean, this war was really viewed in many quarters, particularly among many administration officials, as really a test case for certain propositions, among them the idea that democracy and Islam aren't inherently compatible and we would be welcomed in Iraq.
DOBBS: I'm, sorry, the tenet the being that democracy and Islam are what?
KAPLAN: Are not inherently incompatible, that they can actually -- you can create democracy in an Arab and Islamic country. And if -- I think if events continue to go this way, these beliefs, understandably and justifiably, get called into question.
DOBBS: Two elements, tenets of neo-conservatism thought, regime change, the preemptive strikes against Saddam Hussein, is that -- if those are principal tenets of neo-conservatism thinking and this now, as we all understand it to be, a far more dangerous world than we recognized before September 11, what does that suggest for foreign policy on the part of the administration which has, as you suggest, neocons in very important roles particularly in the defense department toward Iran, toward North Korea?
KAPLAN: Well, I think it's fairly clear what it suggests. Actually the Bush doctrine, which, as you mentioned, includes preemption and regime change, arguably applies more clearly to Iran and North Korea than it did to Iraq.
No one argues that Iran and North Korea do not possess weapons of mass destruction. It's fairly clear that they do. So here really are test cases for perception. But after Iraq I think there might be a sense of a boy who cried wolf since we haven't found weapons there. And the doctrine itself really does get called into question.
DOBBS: Doctrines, often are -- they morph over time, they are mutated to give way to new circumstances. The neo-conservatism thinking is basically a go it alone approach in both foreign poll circumstance geopolitics and in military operations. Is there some movement within the neoconservatives to adapt to change? Is there any -- is there a sufficient life in that school of thought to be adaptive and to be vigorous in a new direction?
KAPLAN: I -- flexibility is not something that those who are typically called neo-conservatives are known for. And I think in this case, it's not merely stubbornness. I think it's a conviction that the world, as it is, really won't allow for anything other than a very assertive and unapologetic approach.
I mean, after all, the critics of neoconservatives like to talk about multilateralism and soft power. It's not clear that those strategies would work in the world today. So, I think in many ways, the world hasn't given the United States much of an option here.
DOBBS: Lawrence Kaplan, we thank you for being with us. Hope you'll come back soon.
Tonight's quote from a French government official who today made comments about the relationship between France and the United States, and we quote, "there is no bitterness at all. The relationship between France and the United States is the relation between friends and allies. Between friends, you never have bitterness. You may disagree, you may not be in a position to understand issues of the other, but you think it is your responsibility to stick to your priciples, to stick to the idea you have of your self and of the relationship with your friend." That from French Foreign Minister, Dominique de Villopon.
There's still time to vote in our poll tonight. The question, "how much credit card debt do you have?" None, less than $5,000, less than $10,000, or more than $10,000. Cast your vote at cnn.com/lou. We'll have the results coming right up.
Also ahead, San Francisco, home to an endangered species? That's what one governor seems to think. That story and more still ahead. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: The results of our poll. The question, "how much credit card debt do you have?" 53 percent of you said none, 20 percent said less than $5,000, 8 percent said less than $10,000, 18 percent more than $10,000.
Finally tonight, Florida's Governor Bush apparently isn't planning a run for office in California any time soon. In a meeting with his cabinet Wednesday the governor joked that the people of San Francisco are an endangered species and said that was probably good news for the country.
A spokesman for the governor's office said Governor Bush was referring to the endangered status of Republicans in California. San Francisco's Mayor Willie Brown didn't make too much of the comment. He noted San Franciscans have a pretty good sense of humor. He went on to say he did want one thing from Jeb Bush, and that would be an alligater to be a companion for one of the supervisors there in San Francisco.
That's our show for tonight. Thanks for being with us. Tomorrow in our special report "Exporting America" we take a look at companies that are abusing high tech visa programs. We'll also be joined by presidential hopeful Dick Gephardt. And Felix Roight, the former ambassador to France. We'll be talking about the state of this economy and its prospects for the years ahead.
For all of us here, good night from New York. "ANDERSON COOPER 360" is coming right up.
END
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Class Under Siege; Neo-Conservatism Will Rise Or Fall Based On Success In Iraq>
