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Lou Dobbs Tonight
White House Fights To Save Energy, Medicare Bills; America's Obsession With Diets Goes Low-Carbohydrate; Donkey Carts Used in Iraq to Launch Missiles Against U.S.
Aired November 21, 2003 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LOU DOBBS, HOST: Tonight, the White House fights to save two key elements of the president's domestic agenda, energy and Medicare. Health and Human Services secretary Tommy Thompson is our guest.
In our special report, "Broken Borders": Millions of foreigners stay in this country illegally when their visas expire. Lisa Sylvester reports on a new effort to track them.
No-carb nation, America's obsession with diets goes low- carbohydrate. From Atkins to South Beach, Bill Tucker reports on the winners and losers.
And the war against radical Islamists. A top U.S. general says the death or capture of Osama bin Laden is no longer a requirement for victory. Jamie McIntyre reports on the military's changing strategy and rhetoric.
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT for Friday, November 21. Here now, Lou Dobbs.
DOBBS: Good evening. Insurgents today launched a brazen attack against Iraq's oil ministry and two hotels in the heavily guarded center of Baghdad. The insurgents launched more than a dozen rockets from carts pulled by donkeys. Two people were wounded in the attacks, one of them an American civilian contractor. Military officials described the attacks as militarily insignificant, but they admitted the insurgents are using more sophisticated tactics. Walt Rodgers reports from Baghdad.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
WALTER RODGERS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It could have been much worse, as these rockets that failed to fire attest. The blast of the first rockets disconnected the battery wires which could have triggered a much larger volley of four-foot long missiles. This is the cart carrying the rockets, spilled over. Still standing, a badly traumatized and singed donkey, which the Iraqi insurgents used to haul their missile launcher.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right, copy. Impact on the 14th, 15th and 16th floor. Only one casualty thus far. Over.
RODGERS: The critically injured man is an American civilian contract employee.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Camera down! Put it down!
RODGERS: These U.S. soldiers still declined to allow pictures showing that the war does continue. One of three targets in the rocket attacks, the Palestine and Sheraton Hotel complex, housing some soldiers and many journalists. Seven rockets hit the Palestine a little after 7:00 AM. This man's room is just down the hall from mine. Later he said to me, This was our lucky day. This 107- millimeter rocket exploded one floor above mine, getting me out of bed in a hurry. The hardest hit room at the other end of the hall was, fortunately, unoccupied.
Across the street at the former Sheraton Hotel, a bellboy was injured when more rockets hit there. The Iraqi oil ministry was also struck by between seven and ten more rockets, starting fires. No casualties here, and U.S. soldiers managed to fire shots at the fleeing insurgents. This U.S. Army colonel said the attacks were well executed and linked to the Muslim holiday, Ramadan.
COL. BRAD MAY, U.S. ARMY: As you look at Ramadan and as we move closer to the end of the Ramadan period, naturally, there's, you know, more concern and our intelligence collection effort is heightened.
RODGERS: Near the Italian embassy, another donkey-cart missile strike was foiled by Iraqi police. The cart, disguised as a kerosene peddler's wagon, was suspicious because it had no spigot to dispense fuel. The Arabic graffiti on the rocket launcher reads, "Enjoy." Hundreds of donkey carts ply Baghdad, making them an ingenious cover. According to an American general, all four donkeys used in these attacks survived and are now in coalition care.
Shelling came after U.S. officials had been boasting Iraq is now 90 percent safe and attacks are down by 70 percent. The Army says these most recent rocket attacks were only designed to grab headlines and have no tactical military value. Perhaps, but they were audacious.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
Still, and by way of footnote, what's worrisome is that the insurgents continue to show that they can pretty much strike at will, despite a huge American military presence here -- Lou.
DOBBS: Walt, thank you very much. Walt Rodgers, reporting from Baghdad.
The president has just returned. Air Force One has just set down at Andrews Air Force Base. These are live pictures, as Air Force One is pulling up to the stop and for the president and White House party to disembark. And we will, of course, be coming back to Air Force One, as the president is back in the United States after a three-day visit to London, where he encountered both protesters and met with consider considerable warmth and welcome from British prime minister Tony Blair.
Turning back to Iraq. Insurgents are also continuing their attacks against U.S. troops. The military today said a terrorist boobytrap killed a soldier near Baquba, about 40 miles north of Baghdad. Earlier this week, American troops launched a series of air and artillery strikes on suspected enemy positions in that town.
DOBBS: The United States issued a global warning about the risk of terrorist attacks against U.S. citizens, that one day after the terrorist bombings against two British targets in Turkey. Those bombings killed 30 people, 450 others wounded. The U.S. government says al Qaeda may soon attack American interests.
National security correspondent David Ensor has the report -- David.
DAVID ENSOR, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, U.S. officials are telling us that they have indications that al Qaeda may soon be seeking to attack against U.S. interests, probably overseas. The report comes after yesterday the CIA's Threat Information Center sent out a notice to federal agencies, warning them of an -- that, first, in the wake of the Turkish attacks that we see here, the attacks in Istanbul, and the attack in Riyadh not long ago, there is increased chatter, there's increased indications, increased intelligence, that would-be terrorists may be thinking of attacking again.
Now, most of this intelligence suggests the attacks might be against American interests overseas, but U.S. officials are stressing the homeland also must take care. Here is FBI director Robert Mueller.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROBERT MUELLER, FBI DIRECTOR: In this day and age, you cannot divorce what happens within the United States from what may be occurring overseas. And while the attacks we see today are in Turkey or Riyadh or Bali or someplace like that -- or places such as that, we cannot be less vigilant. We cannot let down our guard. We must understand that al Qaeda and other terrorist groups wish to attack Americans within the United States.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ENSOR: Now, Lou, at this hour, we understand from law enforcement officials that the Department of Homeland Security will probably this evening put out a warning to state and local agencies that they, too, need to beware that al Qaeda is once again plotting some kind of attack -- Lou.
DOBBS: David, the warning that would go out to state and local law enforcement first responders, if you will -- any sense as to how soon?
ENSOR: Well, they're most concerned, Lou, about this last few days of Ramadan. Ramadan ends early next week, and then the few days after that. It's worth recalling that last year late in Ramadan, there was an attack in Mombasa, Kenya, against Israeli tourists there -- Lou.
DOBBS: David, thank you very much. David Ensor reporting. Let's turn very quickly -- the president has just disembarked from Air Force One, if we may. There the president, first lady, Laura Bush, being greeted at Andrews Air Force Base. We understand that the president, running just about on schedule, will be giving brief remarks and speaking with reporters when he is helicoptered to the White House. That'll take about another 10 to 15 minutes. And of course, we will be joining the White House for those comments when the president does arrive on the South Lawn of the White House. President Bush arriving back after a three-day mission and visit to the United Kingdom.
DOBBS: One of this country's most senior military commanders today said the death or capture of Usama bin Laden is no longer essential in their definition for victory against al Qaeda. General Peter Pace, the vice chairman of the Joint Chiefs, told troops in Afghanistan that Usama bin Laden has taken himself out of the picture.
Senior Pentagon correspondent Jamie McIntyre joins me now with the story. Jamie, what does General Pace's statement tell us about the military's strategy against al Qaeda in Afghanistan, and indeed, around the world?
JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, I think it says two things, Lou. One is that the United States and the Pentagon is not interested in building up the myth and mystique of bin Laden, and other senior Taliban officials who are still on the lam, so to speak. And it also is really a recognition, an admission of reality of how difficult it is to find a single person, whether it's Usama bin Laden or Taliban chief Mullah Omar, or whether, for that matter Saddam Hussein in Iraq.
What the Pentagon is trying to do is downplay the significance of the fact that it hasn't captured any of those men so far by pointing out that in the case of Usama bin Laden, U.S. intelligence indicates that he remains in an isolated area of Pakistan, near the Afghanistan border. The U.S. believes he is unable to communicate using any sophisticated means, and so they believe he has essentially, as General Pace said, taken himself out of the picture.
But don't misunderstand that the United States is still intent on getting all of these people. They're using all the means at their disposal. But it's simply very hard to go into this ungoverned area of Pakistan, where the United States is also relying on the help of Pakistani forces, and simply track him down when he's in an area where he is supported by some of the local population.
Pretty much the same case with Saddam Hussein, who's also the focus of an intense manhunt, who the United States would also like to get. But there's also an admission that even if they get Saddam, even if they get Usama bin Laden, that is not going to end the war -- the global war on terror, particularly in the case of al Qaeda, which we have seen from the attacks recently has the ability to strike in many countries around the world -- Lou.
DOBBS: Jamie, do we know what General Pace meant by reference to Usama bin Laden as having "taken himself out of the picture"? MCINTYRE: Well, what their argument is -- and the same thing with Saddam Hussein -- is that while he's on the run, while he has to hide, while he can't communicate, he's not really a force in running al Qaeda. That's the argument that they're making. But again, they'd love to get him tomorrow, if they could. Since they can't, they're downplaying the role that he's playing.
DOBBS: Downplaying it just over two years after President Bush said "Wanted, dead or alive." This seems a peculiar time to try to change rhetoric and shift the strategy, doesn't it?
MCINTYRE: Well, I think that if you actually go back and examine some of the statements of the Joint Chiefs chairman, Secretary Rumsfeld, you'll find that they've said similar things, especially as time has gone on and it's become obvious that it's very difficult to get these men.
DOBBS: Jamie McIntyre, our senior Pentagon correspondent. Thank you, Jamie.
That brings us to the topic of our poll question tonight. The question: How important do you believe it is to capture or kill Usama bin Laden? Very, somewhat or not at all. Please cast your vote at Lou Dobbs at cnn.com. We'll have the results later in the broadcast.
Coming up next: The congressional fight over Medicare could affect 40 million senior citizens, and it could cost taxpayers as much as $400 million. And it could be decided in just a matter of hours. Congressional correspondent Jonathan Karl reports. And we'll be joined by the secretary of the Department of Health and Human Services, Tommy Thompson.
And an American hero: Tonight, an update on one soldier's inspiring story of triumph and remarkable grace. Casey Wian (ph) will have his story.
And former treasury secretary Robert Rubin joins us tonight to talk about his new book, "In an Uncertain World: Tough Choices From Wall Street to Washington."
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Senate Republicans today failed to schedule a final vote for a $31 billion energy bill. That's a setback for the Republican leadership and the Bush administration. A motion to end the filibuster on the legislation failed by three votes. Seven Republicans, including majority leader Bill Frist, sided with Democrats to put off the vote. The vote by Frist, a technical vote, so that cloture could be put before the body again. Democrats and moderate Republicans who oppose that bill say that it's simply too expensive, doesn't protect the environment and provides subsidies to special interests.
Lawmakers on Capitol Hill are also working on some last-minute lobbying to sway colleagues in tonight's vote on the $400 billion Medicare bill. One major obstacle, the issue of allowing private health plans to compete with government-run Medicare.
Jonathan Karl joins us from Capitol Hill now -- Jonathan.
JONATHAN KARL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Lou, we are in for a late-night cliff-hanger in the House of Representatives tonight on the Medicare bill, with a vote expected not until long after midnight tonight. Republican leaders still do not have the votes they need to pass the Medicare bill. They are furiously trying to line those votes up right now. And that is why we expect to hear from President Bush himself. The president is expected at the White House shortly. He is expected to again make the case that Congress needs to pass that Medicare bill. By the way, he will also say they should get back and pass the energy bill, as well.
Meanwhile, up here on Capitol Hill, speaker of the House Dennis Hastert said this is really the one and only time to get prescription drug coverage for Medicare.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. DENNIS HASTERT (R-IL), HOUSE SPEAKER: The time has come. The moon and the stars have lined up in our favor. The time is upon us. Now or never. America's seniors and the greatest generation deserve no less.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KARL: Well, the moon and the stars may have lined up, but for now, not all the Republicans are aligned on this. It is Republicans, conservative Republicans, that are the subject of a last-minute lobbying campaign by the White House and by Republican leaders on the Medicare bill, Republicans who think, on one hand, there simply isn't enough competition for Medicare on this, not enough for private insurance companies in this bill. And also, they believe simply that it costs too much and that the $400 billion price tag may actually underestimate the true cost of this new prescription drug benefit. One of those Republicans trying to lead the effort against the bill, against his own party on this, is Indiana's Mike Pence.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. MIKE PENCE (R), INDIANA: I think it's a very close vote. I'm convinced that the House conservatives who came to Washington, D.C., not to create new entitlements but to change entitlements, are holding firm. And the Democrats seem to have sensed that, and so there's a tremendous example of strange bedfellows coming together that I believe, if we're successful, will work to the great benefit of American taxpayers.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KARL: The last-minute lobbying campaign included calls from the president to wavering conservatives in the House, as he was flying back from London on Air Force One.
Now, if they get it through the House tonight, they'll have a much easier time over here in the Senate. In fact, Senate minority leader Tom Daschle says that he will not vote to filibuster this bill, so the Republicans will almost certainly be able to pass the Medicare bill here in the Senate. The question now is whether or not they can get it passed in the House -- Lou.
DOBBS: All right, Jonathan Karl, our Capitol Hill correspondent, thank you very much.
Coming up next: President Bush is expected to speak from the White House momentarily. He is scheduled to land -- he is aboard Marine One on his way to the White House. We'll bring that to you live just as soon as the president arrives.
Also ahead: The secretary of the Department of Health and Human Services says this Medicare legislation would be the most significant improvement in health care in nearly four decades. Secretary Tommy Thompson joins us to tell us why.
And "Broken Borders," our special report tonight: new technology to track 28 million visitors who come to this country each and every year, too many of whom stay indefinitely and illegally. Lisa Sylvester reports from Washington.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: The first government crisis faced by my next guest focused squarely on Mexico. Robert Rubin's initial position on Mexico changed a lot of history in 1995. And he has come out with a new book, and we have Bob Rubin with us tonight.
Bob, it's good to have you here.
ROBERT RUBIN, FORMER TREASURY SECRETARY: It's very good to be with you, Lou.
DOBBS: Your book focuses on fiscal responsibility, much of which you brought to Washington, to the federal government, when it had been absent for better than three decades. How do you feel as you watch our deficits now swelling, the trade deficit at record levels, the federal budget at record levels?
RUBIN: I feel very deeply troubled, Lou. I think we have created an enormous future problem for ourselves, both with respect to our fiscal deficit and our trade deficit. And I think, in large measure, it was unnecessary. I think it was important to have fiscal stimulus when the economy got in difficulty about three years ago, but I think we could have done it with temporary measures, had all of the stimulus we needed, and have avoided almost all of this, what is now very serious long-term fiscal situation, which I think is a very serious threat to our economic well-being.
DOBBS: Our economic well-being is under threat from a number of a quarters, it seems. We have a very difficult time creating jobs in this country right now, keeping pace with population growth. We have a record trade deficit. We are watching the outsourcing of jobs. We have some disputation, if you will, on the direct of free trade. The Fed chairman, Alan Greenspan, has put it in two very simple choices, protection or free trade, as though there is no other choice. What is your thought about how to fix all of this?
RUBIN: Well, I think, No. 1, Lou, absolutely, we have to reestablish long-term fiscal discipline, and I think it is central to all of economic policy. Secondly, I do think that our open trading markets contributed substantially to our economic well-being in the '90s. I think it's the right path to go forward. But I do think we need to combine that with a domestic policy agenda that promotes productivity, which means, again, responsible fiscal policy that'll allow for high-level investment, public education, and the rest.
DOBBS: Bob, if you can excuse me just for one moment? The presidential helicopter, Marine One, is now landing on the South Lawn at the White House. The president and Mrs. Bush are stepping before the cameras and microphones right now.
GEORGE WALKER BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: ... spent some time today in Tony Blair's constituency, which was not only a lot of fun, but it was a chance to continue our dialogue about how to fight and defeat terror. We've got a special relationship with Great Britain, and that relationship was reaffirmed during the last three days.
Back here at home, I'm pleased that the Congress passed the Healthy Forests Initiative, which will help us maintain our national treasure, our forests, begin providing a common-sense strategy, making sure that the fire hazards that we've seen over the last couple of summers are mitigated as best as possible.
Secondly, I was pleased that the House of Representatives passed an energy bill. This nation needs an energy bill. It needs an energy plan. A minority of senators are holding it up. For the sake of our national security and economic security, the Senate's got to pass this bill.
And finally, as you know, the Medicare legislation is -- will be debated tonight in the House of Representatives, and eventually in the Senate. It is an important time for members of the U.S. Congress to honor our obligations to our seniors by providing a modern Medicare system, a system that includes prescription drugs and choices for our seniors. I urge the House and the Senate to pass this good piece of legislation.
We're glad to be home. It's good to see you all. Good night. Thank you.
DOBBS: President Bush and the first lady, Laura Bush, returning and obviously delighted to be home after a three-day visit in London, to the United Kingdom, and imploring Capitol Hill, Republicans and Democrats, to pass that Medicare legislation. The energy bill, as we reported, meeting stiff resistance and a final vote delayed, disappointing both the White House and the Republican leadership on Capitol Hill.
We're talking with Bob Rubin, treasury secretary in the Clinton administration, who's written a terrific book. And I want to go to a couple of the issues that you've just started to embark upon when the president returned.
RUBIN: Terrific.
DOBBS: The idea of bringing forth fiscal discipline when we have -- we're emerging from a very difficult economic downturn, we have tremendous demands because of the war against radical Islamist terror across the world -- how does one meet those challenges and stay, as you put it, fiscally responsible?
RUBIN: I think what we should have done, Lou, and I think what we should still do is to have whatever level of short-term stimulus we need, with temporary tax cuts that are directed predominantly to those who will spend the largest portion of what they get, plus I think we should have had more of the stimulus in the form of aid to states for infrastructure, schools and the rest, all of which would have been more jobs-effective, in my judgment. And we should have avoided tax cuts that had these enormous long-term deficit effects that I think are very deeply troubling and I think quite dangers, with respect to our economic future.
DOBBS: Is there any...
RUBIN: And in fact, the very issues that you mentioned -- these issues of terrorism and geopolitics are not going away. I think we're going to have continued large-scale expenditures required for defense or homeland security. And the more that one is focused on those kinds of issues, the more important it is that we have a sound long-term fiscal regime as an underpinning for a sound long-term economy.
DOBBS: And that sound long-term economy looks fairly robust right now, within the snapshot of the last few months -- 7.2 percent GDP growth, 8.1 percent improvement in productivity. These are striking numbers. We've got the lowest jobless claims in 33 months. Have we turned a corner? I'm going to turn to you now as the...
RUBIN: I don't know the...
(CROSSTALK)
RUBIN: I don't know the answer to that, Lou. There's immense stimulus in the system right now from defense, from homeland security, from the Fed's accommodative policy. About 15 percent to 20 percent of it is estimated to come from that portion of the tax cuts that come within this period. The problem is, we could have had the tax cut portion of it with temporary tax cuts, as I mentioned a moment ago, and avoided these enormous effects on our long-term fiscal position, which are adverse and threaten to increase interest rates, undermine consumer business confidence and undermine our economy. And that was totally unnecessary, with respect to short-term stimulus.
DOBBS: Not much demand for Rubinomics right now in Washington?
(LAUGHTER)
RUBIN: Well, I don't know what you want to call it. I just wish there was a lot more demand for fiscal discipline.
DOBBS: Bob Rubin, thank you very much, former treasury secretary. We thank you. A terrific new book. And let me see if I can get this title right -- "In an Uncertain World: Tough Choices From Wall Street to Washington."
RUBIN: That is absolutely correct, Lou.
DOBBS: Terrific.
RUBIN: Thank you very much.
DOBBS: Bob, thanks a lot. Bob Rubin.
RUBIN: Thank you, Lou. Very good to be with you.
DOBBS: An estimated 28 million visitors enter this country every year. They include tourists, students, temporary workers, all who are supposed to leave when their visas expire. But as Lisa Sylvester now reports, many of these visitors do not leave, and they stay illegally, adding to a growing problem of illegal immigration.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LISA SYLVESTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: The U.S. government estimates 40 percent of U.S. visitors overstay their visas.
ROSEMARY JENKS, NUMBERSUSA: We don't know who these people are. We don't know what they're doing here. We don't know with whom they're involved when they're here.
SYLVESTER: At least two of the 9/11 hijackers were in the country on expired student visas. A new exit/entry program called U.S.-Visit went into effect at the nation's busiest airport in Atlanta and will be implemented at more than 100 airports by January. Seaports and border entry points will be phased in over the next year. Visitors will have their two index fingers digitally scanned and a digital photo taken when they enter the country and will have to check out when they leave. Travelers from Canada, Japan and most European countries that do not need visas are exempt from the program. U.S.- Visit is designed to keep terrorists out and to stop the flow of illegal immigration.
ASA HUTCHINSON, HOMELAND SECURITY UNDERSECRETARY: Can we protect our borders of the United States? I think that we can, in terms of people misusing travel documents through fraudulent means because it's hard to escape the reality of a biometric identifier.
SYLVESTER: The United States caps the number of permanent immigrants to no more than 26,000 people per country every year. Twenty-eight million visitors arrived in the United States in 2002, most coming from just four countries. Under U.S.-Visit, anyone who overstays their visa will have trouble re-entering the country if they ever leave. But security experts expect some glitches.
JAMES LEWIS, CSIS: We're going to find grandmothers being interrogated, people being denied visas who really don't pose any threat at all.
SYLVESTER: There is another problem. The program does not impact the thousands of people who bypass the visa system, sneaking across the border.
(on camera): While U.S.-Visit lets immigration officials check if someone is in the country who is not supposed to be, critics say foreign tourists and business travelers will be inconvenienced by long waiting lines at the airport.
Lisa Sylvester, CNN, Washington.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: Coming up next: heroes. Tonight, we bring you a follow- up on the story of a young soldier we introduced you to some months ago. He has faced incredible challenges, and he has met them with remarkable courage. His is a wonderful story.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Tonight in heroes the story of a legal immigrant who has already made tremendous contributions to his adopted country. In September, we reported to you about Hilario Bermanis. He lost three of his limbs in a rocket-propelled grenade attack.
Since then, he has received tremendous support from many of you who watched this broadcast. And as you will see, it has helped this hero recover from his devastating injuries. Casey Wian has his story.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): When we last visited Army Specialist Hilario Bermanis, he was becoming an American citizen, yet the physical and emotional wounds he suffered fighting for his adopted country were still too fresh for him to speak about the experience. Now, he's ready.
SPEC. HILARIO BERMANIS JR., U.S. ARMY: It was pretty hard. Like, first, like, when I saw, like, missing limbs I just, like down, depressed. Then slowly getting better now.
WIAN: Bermanis is adjusting to a prosthetic hand. Soon he'll try to learn to walk on prosthetic legs.
BERMANIS JR.: It will feel weird at first to walk, stand on two legs again. But I'll get better and used to it.
WIAN: Then he plans to return to his native Micronesia.
BERMANIS JR.: Go back home. I miss the food, back home food.
WIAN: For now, home has come to him, father Hilario senior is staying with the son he calls H.B. while he rehabilitates at a facility for families of wounded military personnel. H.B. Has received hundreds of letters and financial support. HILARIO BERMANIS SR., FATHER: I like too take this opportunity to thank so many people who have written H.B., contributed to his recovery fund. I have taken every effort to send a thank-you note, thank-you letter to every single one of them.
WIAN: They're thankful for the medical care and support Bermanis has received from his chain of command. He spent Veteran's Day at White House.
BERMANIS JR.: I went in, like, wow, you know, like, pretty amazing.
WIAN: So is the attitude of this 21-year-old.
BERMANIS JR.: People, like, say you're a hero. You're an American hero, like, something, I think about it. I was only doing my job. No way you're being hero doing your job, going to the line of fire.
WIAN: Casey Wian, CNN, reporting.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: If you'd like to contribute to the recovery of Hilario Bermanis, please go to our Web site cnn.com/lou, there we have the address, information available for you where you can send donations for Hilario Bermanis as well as the fund that helps all disabled veterans from the war in Iraq and Afghanistan. Again, that's cnn.com/lou and they will -- there you will find all of the necessary information.
Next, the Secretary of the Department of Health and Human Services, Tommy Thompson, will be here. We're talking about what he calls the most significant improvement in healthcare in nearly four decades. The vote, however, is not certain.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: We've all just heard President Bush live on the south lawn of the White House after arriving back from London, lobbying members of Congress to pass his plan for medicare reform. My guest tonight says the nation's seniors cannot afford for Congress to fail on this improvement in medicare but medicare is such a complex program it would be impossible to please everyone, no matter what. Joining me now, the Health and Human Services Secretary Tommy Thompson. Mr. Secretary, good to have you here.
SEC. TOMMY THOMPSON, HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES: It's always a privilege to be with you, Lou. Thank you.
DOBBS: Mr. Secretary, you, the other members of the cabinet, the White House, the president himself, the Republican leadership seem to be scrambling on this. How tough is this vote going to be?
THOMPSON: It's going have to be very close and it's very tough. This medicare bill is the most complex piece of legislation that this Congress has had to face in many years and it's going to be very difficult. But it's so important because what it does, it gives the seniors of America the opportunity to get coverage for drugs, something they have been asking both political parties to accomplish for over ten years.
And now we're on the five-yard line. All we have to do is push it over, score the touchdown and give our seniors the prescription drug coverage they have been asking for.
DOBBS: The reasonable expectation was, in particular, Senate Democrats would represent a major obstacle to this legislation early on. It now appears that the Democrats in the Senate have -- are prepared to support the legislation, your problem is in the House and that problem is with conservatives.
THOMPSON: Well, there's no question, we have some difficulties with some conservative Republicans who believe that this goes too far and that there's not enough cost controls in it and not enough competition. But we're working on them. We're trying to convince them, as well as some middle of the road Democrats and some conservative Democrats that this is the right thing for America.
This is going to allow seniors, especially low-income seniors, to get benefits that they never could hope to have and never could expect to pay for. Senior that's under 100 percent of poverty is going to receive 97 percent of their drugs cost-free from the federal government. Those up to 135 percent, 95 percent, and those up to 150 percent, 90 percent. It's a wonderful, generous benefit for low- income seniors, and all of us know that have been out there talking to seniors that this is something they're requesting.
DOBBS: Mr. Secretary, there is also criticism that the plan will in point of fact move many people away from their private, most often private drug prescription plans as a result of this legislation, that there's too much incentive, if you will, to the private sector to make way for this reform plan. How do you respond?
THOMPSON: Well, I say that that's just not correct, because this is a voluntary program. Seniors can join it or they don't have to join it. They can pick and choose. That's the beauty of this plan, that there's going to be, for the first time, seniors in America are going to have choices, just like you do, like I do, like every federal employee does, have choices to pick the best insurance policy for myself and my family.
Seniors now are going to have the same opportunity, something they haven't had under the current program, which is just one program, and that's a fee for service, and that's a government-controlled, price-controlled mechanism that we run from the federal government.
Now they're going to be that program and other programs as well. So seniors will have choices, which gives them a lot better opportunity to pick and choose and come up with the best program for themselves and their families.
DOBBS: Mr. Secretary, you're the point man for the president on this legislation.
THOMPSON: I am.
DOBBS: We talked with Bill Thomas here, the chairman of the Ways & Means Committee, last night, one of the point people certainly in the House leadership.
THOMPSON: Very much so.
DOBBS: What's your best judgment as to what happens with this legislation when the vote occurs tonight?
THOMPSON: Well, we're hoping that we're going to have a cross- over from some Democrats, as well as get -- convince the conservative Republicans to vote for it, and get enough votes to come out with a victory and score the touchdown. I predict a victory.
DOBBS: OK. That's what I was getting at. I knew what you hoped. I just wanted to get the actual count.
THOMPSON: I predict a victory. It's going to be close, but we're going to have a victory.
DOBBS: Health and Human Services Secretary Tommy Thompson, thank you.
Now to somewhat less weighty matters. The low carbohydrate diet debate has been in full swing this week. Beer companies have begun to embrace low carb lifestyle and the accompanying boost in their profits. But at least one industry isn't singing the praises of no- carb nation. Bill Tucker reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BILL TUCKER, CNN FINANCIAL NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Bread makers not loafing around, but rising to the low carbohydrate challenge, gathering in Providence, Rhode Island for the very first national bread summit.
Bread, after having gone unchallenged as part of our daily diet for thousands of years, not selling as well as it once did. But neither are a lot of other foods, like tortillas. That industry realizing its crisis early held a seminar in May on the impact of low carb diets on the industry. The impact is not good.
Slim Fast, which is carbohydrate-friendly, isn't doing well either. A drop in sales tanked Unilever's profits by 23 percent. It's the marketing manifestation of the herd mentality.
JOHN PARTILLA, BRAND BUZZ: We're driven by this desire to all connect to one another through whether it's popular or cultural trends. And some of these trends, whether it's Atkins or South Beach diet, and the books that are written, we like to partake in these things just to kind of be a part of the latest social trend.
TUCKER: Suddenly, everyone wants a piece of the low carb market. Beef sales have risen 12 of the last 14 quarters, and cattle stock has dropped to 30-year lows. Even beer companies are advertising their carb contents.
Coors so excited by the trend it announced this week it too will make and market a low-carb brew.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, ADVERTISING)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This beer has half the carbs of Bud Lite.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TUCKER: Miller Lite showing the doubters why, announcing its profits rose and its parent company's bottom line grew 60 percent.
And for those really on the carb watch, you can also get low-carb high protein chips to go with that beer -- Lou.
DOBBS: I think probably you and I should get away from this story just as quickly as possible, Bill Tucker. Thank you very much.
Coming up next -- the latest scandal to rock Wall Street taking its toll on the markets. Christine Romans.
And we'll share some of your thoughts on our series of special reports, "Broken Borders."
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: In just a few moments, the editors of the three major business news magazines will be here to give us some analysis on the drama unfolding on Capitol Hill right this moment. But first, we're going to turn to Christine Romans to bring us up to date on the drama on Wall Street today.
CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN FINANCIAL NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Drama, indeed. Two weeks in a row lower for the Dow, Lou, and that hasn't happened since March of this year. It was tax selling, a weak dollar, higher oil prices over the past couple of weeks all culminating to drag the Dow down 2 percent.
Oil and terrorism fears yanked airlines 9 percent lower this week. Computer hardware, financial stocks, biotechs, also lower. Only General Electric, the only widely held stock to advance this week.
Money has slowed in the mutual funds. Last week, $1 billion fewer went into stock funds, and bonds saw an outflow.
The mutual fund scandal has something to do with that, dragging down stocks in the past few weeks, along with global security fears, Lou. But keep in mind, the Dow is still up more than 12 percent this year.
DOBBS: I am delighted to keep that in mind, and I'll be even more delighted when we get these scandals resolved and the bad guys in jail.
ROMANS: Indeed.
DOBBS: All right. Thanks, Christine Romans.
Tonight's thought is on corporate leadership. "It is unfortunate we can't buy many business executives for what they are worth and sell them for what they think they are worth." That from a fellow by the name of Malcolm Forbes.
Coming up next -- "Newsmakers" from a chilly reception for the president in Britain to a surprising suggestion or two from Howard Dean. The race for the White House taking shape. The editors of "Forbes," "Fortune," "BusinessWeek" join me next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Now the results of our poll. The question, "How important do you believe it is to capture or kill Osama bin Laden?" 80 percent of you say, very, 12 percent somewhat, 8 percent said not at all.
Howard Dean, the Democratic front-runner for the presidential nomination, says he would implement a far-reaching re-regulation of business to restore faith in scandal plagued corporate America and Wall Street. This while members of Congress battle over energy and Medicare bills that stand to have a dramatic impact on the lives of millions of us.
Join joining us now for this week's news makers, Steve Forbes, editor-in-chief of "Forbes magazine, Rik Kirkland, managing editor of "Fortune" magazine, Steve Shepherd, managing editor of "Businessweek." Good to have you all here.
The president just returned, Steve, from three days in the United Kingdom. Is it a trip you think he preferred not to have made?
STEVE SHEPARD, "BUSINESSWEEK": I think he did himself a lot of good. I think he went a long away of erasing the stereotype of a Texas cowboy. The speech he made over there was really quite good.
It's interesting that the attacks in Turkey took place at about the same time, so we still have the fundamental problem of convincing people that the war in Iraq is the right way to fight terrorism. And I'm not sure he can convince the people in the street.
RIK KIRKLAND, "FORTUNE": But the attacks also reinforced the theme that this is an ongoing persistent malevolent threat and, you know, fortitude and perseverance, which is a message that he and Blair were giving out is the only way to deal with that.
DOBBS: Robert Rubin, the former treasury secretary under President Clinton, saying there needs to be more fiscal discipline within the context of the war against terror, as Rik said, and against the tremendous demands put on by the tax cut. Do you have any thoughts about the need for fiscal discipline here? STEVE FORBES, "FORBES": Well, his version of fiscal discipline is increasing taxes. I think reducing tax rates makes the economy stronger and gives us wealth to fight the wars and some of the challenges at home. Fiscal discipline would mean spending discipline which this administration and Congress manifestly have not done.
DOBBS: Spending here is raging. Are you getting concerned yet, Rik?
KIRKLAND: Drunken sailor levels, yes. It's just every bill that comes through...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The sailors...
KIRKLAND: Sorry about that, sailors. It's awful. Not only have we swung from, you know, surpluses as far as the eye can see to huge deficits, but the deficits are vastly understated probably by $5 trillion in this decade alone.
SHEPARD: If this is what passes for legislation, bring back gridlock, my goodness.
KIRKLAND: Yes.
SHEPARD: That energy bill in particular.
DOBBS Getting a warm and fuzzy feeling about that?
SHEPARD: Gridlock is good. In '90s, when things were cooking in the economy, nothing passed. Maybe we need to go back to that.
DOBBS: The prospect of looking at $400 billion, I think most of understand that that is just the opening bid for the cost of this Medicare reform legislation. Another $31 billion estimated for the energy that didn't survive a test vote today. How important are they, in your judgment?
FORBES: Well, it's not just what's happening on Medicare. That needs a huge overhaul and this bill doesn't even begin to do that. That's got to be done after the next election. The unfunded liabilities there are greater than Social Security.
DOBBS: Is this a liability liable for President Bush, the failure on energy and possible failure...
FORBES: I think energy, they would be doing him a favor to kill that bill. The only thing not in that bill, had everything except my mother-in-law.
SHEPARD: There's a subsidy for Hooters restaurant in Shreveport, Louisiana in the energy bill. It's just a very, very bad bill.
KIRKLAND: Like rain forests in Iowa?
SHEPARD: Hooters and polluters.
KIRLAND: Hooters, I like that.
DOBBS: Hooters and polluters, Rik. That's almost worth stealing.
This president is facing one of -- looks like he will be facing one of nine candidates for the Democratic nomination. The front- runner Howard Dean decides that he wants to talk re-regulation. What do you think?
SHEPARD: Well, politically it plays very well in Iowa. But I think we have to recognize there already is re-regulation. We have Sarbanes-Oxley, accounting oversight board, more regulation on the New York Stock Exchange, more regulation of mutual funds and they're not going let the FCC deregulate the media as much as they want to. It's a reality...
DOBBS: Do you think the administration's given up on media?
SHEPARD: I don't think they've given up, but it's buried in a spending bill. It's going to be hard for him to veto the bill. So, I think he's going to lose on media deregulation.
KIRKLAND: I think the real issue for Dean is he keeps running more left, a little bit more populous, which is great for the primaries. He's got a lot of energy, a lot of excitement. But usually you have to turn toward the center, and that's what worked for Clinton. And it's getting harder and harder for him to do that.
DOBBS: Steve, your thoughts?
FORBES: I think that's right. And I think we Republicans are devoutly hoping Mr. Dean wins, because he'll be in the tradition of Mondale and McGovern. And he's not going to -- given the type of personality he's not going to...
DOBBS: A fellow by the name of Bill Clinton run and win the nomination in '92?
FORBES: I didn't. I thought he was formidable in the campaign, trust me. I was hoping for Jerry Brown.
(CROSSTALK)
FORBES: Jerry Brown was for a flat tax.
SHEPARD: It's not going to be a shoe-in for Mr. Bush. Yesterday in Michigan, they announced the unemployment rate for October went up to an 11-year high. So, we're still not out of the woods in the economy.
DOBBS: The issue, which I think is represented by those facts, trade, outsourcing, a massive trade deficit, is it going to be a significant issue by your best reckoning at this point, in the presidential election?
FORBES: If the economy is doing well, as it should next year, it will hurt in certain areas of the country. But overall, not just as it didn't hurt Reagan when we had an outflow of manufacturing jobs in the mid 1980s. So it depends on the economy, how much that issue's going to bite politically.
KIRKLAND: I do think, though, longer term is a troubling trend. The Democratic party, which always had sort of a minority, a significant minority of tree trade types, someone who believes in free trade, is really abandoning all of that. It means Bush, as we have seen in the last few years, is going to be pushed against that by becoming more protectionist himself and it will lead to more measures that aren't going to be helpful for the economy.
SHEPARD: (AUDIO GAP) He may get through the elect, but we're still going to have these problems to deal with after that.
FORBES: Part of it is too much regulation. The FCC is still in the stone age when it comes to broadband. Korea has 100 times more broadband than the United States. It's crazy.
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: Steve, thank you. Steve Forbes, Rik Kirkland and Steve Shepherd, we thank you all three for being here. We're going to have to work on some of these fine-tuned Democratic issues here.
Finally tonight, a look at some of your thoughts. Quickly we have time for a couple.
From Los Angeles, "Isn't it amazing that we don't even know who the insurgents are in Iraq, yet Turkey already has people in custody from yesterday's bombing. What is the problem with our intel?" That from Karen Dicker.
From Olympia, Washington, "Thanks, Lou, for staying on the 2 most important issues to the working people of America. The free trade of jobs leaving our borders from the multinationals and the plight of all of the U.S. suffering under the deluge of illegal immigrants. The only example of consistent coverage of TV and I am a rampaging vegetarian, dog-hugging, tree-hugging liberal offering that opinion." And Cliff High, we appreciate it.
We love hearing from you. Send us your thoughts at loudobbs@cnn.com. That's our show for tonight. We thank you for being with us. Monday we begin a series of special reports, "The Throwaway Society." And we hope you'll be with us. We hope you have a very pleasant weekend. For all of us here, good night from New York City. "ANDERSON COOPER 360" coming up next.
END
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America's Obsession With Diets Goes Low-Carbohydrate; Donkey Carts Used in Iraq to Launch Missiles Against U.S.>
Aired November 21, 2003 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LOU DOBBS, HOST: Tonight, the White House fights to save two key elements of the president's domestic agenda, energy and Medicare. Health and Human Services secretary Tommy Thompson is our guest.
In our special report, "Broken Borders": Millions of foreigners stay in this country illegally when their visas expire. Lisa Sylvester reports on a new effort to track them.
No-carb nation, America's obsession with diets goes low- carbohydrate. From Atkins to South Beach, Bill Tucker reports on the winners and losers.
And the war against radical Islamists. A top U.S. general says the death or capture of Osama bin Laden is no longer a requirement for victory. Jamie McIntyre reports on the military's changing strategy and rhetoric.
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT for Friday, November 21. Here now, Lou Dobbs.
DOBBS: Good evening. Insurgents today launched a brazen attack against Iraq's oil ministry and two hotels in the heavily guarded center of Baghdad. The insurgents launched more than a dozen rockets from carts pulled by donkeys. Two people were wounded in the attacks, one of them an American civilian contractor. Military officials described the attacks as militarily insignificant, but they admitted the insurgents are using more sophisticated tactics. Walt Rodgers reports from Baghdad.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
WALTER RODGERS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It could have been much worse, as these rockets that failed to fire attest. The blast of the first rockets disconnected the battery wires which could have triggered a much larger volley of four-foot long missiles. This is the cart carrying the rockets, spilled over. Still standing, a badly traumatized and singed donkey, which the Iraqi insurgents used to haul their missile launcher.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right, copy. Impact on the 14th, 15th and 16th floor. Only one casualty thus far. Over.
RODGERS: The critically injured man is an American civilian contract employee.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Camera down! Put it down!
RODGERS: These U.S. soldiers still declined to allow pictures showing that the war does continue. One of three targets in the rocket attacks, the Palestine and Sheraton Hotel complex, housing some soldiers and many journalists. Seven rockets hit the Palestine a little after 7:00 AM. This man's room is just down the hall from mine. Later he said to me, This was our lucky day. This 107- millimeter rocket exploded one floor above mine, getting me out of bed in a hurry. The hardest hit room at the other end of the hall was, fortunately, unoccupied.
Across the street at the former Sheraton Hotel, a bellboy was injured when more rockets hit there. The Iraqi oil ministry was also struck by between seven and ten more rockets, starting fires. No casualties here, and U.S. soldiers managed to fire shots at the fleeing insurgents. This U.S. Army colonel said the attacks were well executed and linked to the Muslim holiday, Ramadan.
COL. BRAD MAY, U.S. ARMY: As you look at Ramadan and as we move closer to the end of the Ramadan period, naturally, there's, you know, more concern and our intelligence collection effort is heightened.
RODGERS: Near the Italian embassy, another donkey-cart missile strike was foiled by Iraqi police. The cart, disguised as a kerosene peddler's wagon, was suspicious because it had no spigot to dispense fuel. The Arabic graffiti on the rocket launcher reads, "Enjoy." Hundreds of donkey carts ply Baghdad, making them an ingenious cover. According to an American general, all four donkeys used in these attacks survived and are now in coalition care.
Shelling came after U.S. officials had been boasting Iraq is now 90 percent safe and attacks are down by 70 percent. The Army says these most recent rocket attacks were only designed to grab headlines and have no tactical military value. Perhaps, but they were audacious.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
Still, and by way of footnote, what's worrisome is that the insurgents continue to show that they can pretty much strike at will, despite a huge American military presence here -- Lou.
DOBBS: Walt, thank you very much. Walt Rodgers, reporting from Baghdad.
The president has just returned. Air Force One has just set down at Andrews Air Force Base. These are live pictures, as Air Force One is pulling up to the stop and for the president and White House party to disembark. And we will, of course, be coming back to Air Force One, as the president is back in the United States after a three-day visit to London, where he encountered both protesters and met with consider considerable warmth and welcome from British prime minister Tony Blair.
Turning back to Iraq. Insurgents are also continuing their attacks against U.S. troops. The military today said a terrorist boobytrap killed a soldier near Baquba, about 40 miles north of Baghdad. Earlier this week, American troops launched a series of air and artillery strikes on suspected enemy positions in that town.
DOBBS: The United States issued a global warning about the risk of terrorist attacks against U.S. citizens, that one day after the terrorist bombings against two British targets in Turkey. Those bombings killed 30 people, 450 others wounded. The U.S. government says al Qaeda may soon attack American interests.
National security correspondent David Ensor has the report -- David.
DAVID ENSOR, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, U.S. officials are telling us that they have indications that al Qaeda may soon be seeking to attack against U.S. interests, probably overseas. The report comes after yesterday the CIA's Threat Information Center sent out a notice to federal agencies, warning them of an -- that, first, in the wake of the Turkish attacks that we see here, the attacks in Istanbul, and the attack in Riyadh not long ago, there is increased chatter, there's increased indications, increased intelligence, that would-be terrorists may be thinking of attacking again.
Now, most of this intelligence suggests the attacks might be against American interests overseas, but U.S. officials are stressing the homeland also must take care. Here is FBI director Robert Mueller.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROBERT MUELLER, FBI DIRECTOR: In this day and age, you cannot divorce what happens within the United States from what may be occurring overseas. And while the attacks we see today are in Turkey or Riyadh or Bali or someplace like that -- or places such as that, we cannot be less vigilant. We cannot let down our guard. We must understand that al Qaeda and other terrorist groups wish to attack Americans within the United States.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ENSOR: Now, Lou, at this hour, we understand from law enforcement officials that the Department of Homeland Security will probably this evening put out a warning to state and local agencies that they, too, need to beware that al Qaeda is once again plotting some kind of attack -- Lou.
DOBBS: David, the warning that would go out to state and local law enforcement first responders, if you will -- any sense as to how soon?
ENSOR: Well, they're most concerned, Lou, about this last few days of Ramadan. Ramadan ends early next week, and then the few days after that. It's worth recalling that last year late in Ramadan, there was an attack in Mombasa, Kenya, against Israeli tourists there -- Lou.
DOBBS: David, thank you very much. David Ensor reporting. Let's turn very quickly -- the president has just disembarked from Air Force One, if we may. There the president, first lady, Laura Bush, being greeted at Andrews Air Force Base. We understand that the president, running just about on schedule, will be giving brief remarks and speaking with reporters when he is helicoptered to the White House. That'll take about another 10 to 15 minutes. And of course, we will be joining the White House for those comments when the president does arrive on the South Lawn of the White House. President Bush arriving back after a three-day mission and visit to the United Kingdom.
DOBBS: One of this country's most senior military commanders today said the death or capture of Usama bin Laden is no longer essential in their definition for victory against al Qaeda. General Peter Pace, the vice chairman of the Joint Chiefs, told troops in Afghanistan that Usama bin Laden has taken himself out of the picture.
Senior Pentagon correspondent Jamie McIntyre joins me now with the story. Jamie, what does General Pace's statement tell us about the military's strategy against al Qaeda in Afghanistan, and indeed, around the world?
JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, I think it says two things, Lou. One is that the United States and the Pentagon is not interested in building up the myth and mystique of bin Laden, and other senior Taliban officials who are still on the lam, so to speak. And it also is really a recognition, an admission of reality of how difficult it is to find a single person, whether it's Usama bin Laden or Taliban chief Mullah Omar, or whether, for that matter Saddam Hussein in Iraq.
What the Pentagon is trying to do is downplay the significance of the fact that it hasn't captured any of those men so far by pointing out that in the case of Usama bin Laden, U.S. intelligence indicates that he remains in an isolated area of Pakistan, near the Afghanistan border. The U.S. believes he is unable to communicate using any sophisticated means, and so they believe he has essentially, as General Pace said, taken himself out of the picture.
But don't misunderstand that the United States is still intent on getting all of these people. They're using all the means at their disposal. But it's simply very hard to go into this ungoverned area of Pakistan, where the United States is also relying on the help of Pakistani forces, and simply track him down when he's in an area where he is supported by some of the local population.
Pretty much the same case with Saddam Hussein, who's also the focus of an intense manhunt, who the United States would also like to get. But there's also an admission that even if they get Saddam, even if they get Usama bin Laden, that is not going to end the war -- the global war on terror, particularly in the case of al Qaeda, which we have seen from the attacks recently has the ability to strike in many countries around the world -- Lou.
DOBBS: Jamie, do we know what General Pace meant by reference to Usama bin Laden as having "taken himself out of the picture"? MCINTYRE: Well, what their argument is -- and the same thing with Saddam Hussein -- is that while he's on the run, while he has to hide, while he can't communicate, he's not really a force in running al Qaeda. That's the argument that they're making. But again, they'd love to get him tomorrow, if they could. Since they can't, they're downplaying the role that he's playing.
DOBBS: Downplaying it just over two years after President Bush said "Wanted, dead or alive." This seems a peculiar time to try to change rhetoric and shift the strategy, doesn't it?
MCINTYRE: Well, I think that if you actually go back and examine some of the statements of the Joint Chiefs chairman, Secretary Rumsfeld, you'll find that they've said similar things, especially as time has gone on and it's become obvious that it's very difficult to get these men.
DOBBS: Jamie McIntyre, our senior Pentagon correspondent. Thank you, Jamie.
That brings us to the topic of our poll question tonight. The question: How important do you believe it is to capture or kill Usama bin Laden? Very, somewhat or not at all. Please cast your vote at Lou Dobbs at cnn.com. We'll have the results later in the broadcast.
Coming up next: The congressional fight over Medicare could affect 40 million senior citizens, and it could cost taxpayers as much as $400 million. And it could be decided in just a matter of hours. Congressional correspondent Jonathan Karl reports. And we'll be joined by the secretary of the Department of Health and Human Services, Tommy Thompson.
And an American hero: Tonight, an update on one soldier's inspiring story of triumph and remarkable grace. Casey Wian (ph) will have his story.
And former treasury secretary Robert Rubin joins us tonight to talk about his new book, "In an Uncertain World: Tough Choices From Wall Street to Washington."
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Senate Republicans today failed to schedule a final vote for a $31 billion energy bill. That's a setback for the Republican leadership and the Bush administration. A motion to end the filibuster on the legislation failed by three votes. Seven Republicans, including majority leader Bill Frist, sided with Democrats to put off the vote. The vote by Frist, a technical vote, so that cloture could be put before the body again. Democrats and moderate Republicans who oppose that bill say that it's simply too expensive, doesn't protect the environment and provides subsidies to special interests.
Lawmakers on Capitol Hill are also working on some last-minute lobbying to sway colleagues in tonight's vote on the $400 billion Medicare bill. One major obstacle, the issue of allowing private health plans to compete with government-run Medicare.
Jonathan Karl joins us from Capitol Hill now -- Jonathan.
JONATHAN KARL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Lou, we are in for a late-night cliff-hanger in the House of Representatives tonight on the Medicare bill, with a vote expected not until long after midnight tonight. Republican leaders still do not have the votes they need to pass the Medicare bill. They are furiously trying to line those votes up right now. And that is why we expect to hear from President Bush himself. The president is expected at the White House shortly. He is expected to again make the case that Congress needs to pass that Medicare bill. By the way, he will also say they should get back and pass the energy bill, as well.
Meanwhile, up here on Capitol Hill, speaker of the House Dennis Hastert said this is really the one and only time to get prescription drug coverage for Medicare.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. DENNIS HASTERT (R-IL), HOUSE SPEAKER: The time has come. The moon and the stars have lined up in our favor. The time is upon us. Now or never. America's seniors and the greatest generation deserve no less.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KARL: Well, the moon and the stars may have lined up, but for now, not all the Republicans are aligned on this. It is Republicans, conservative Republicans, that are the subject of a last-minute lobbying campaign by the White House and by Republican leaders on the Medicare bill, Republicans who think, on one hand, there simply isn't enough competition for Medicare on this, not enough for private insurance companies in this bill. And also, they believe simply that it costs too much and that the $400 billion price tag may actually underestimate the true cost of this new prescription drug benefit. One of those Republicans trying to lead the effort against the bill, against his own party on this, is Indiana's Mike Pence.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. MIKE PENCE (R), INDIANA: I think it's a very close vote. I'm convinced that the House conservatives who came to Washington, D.C., not to create new entitlements but to change entitlements, are holding firm. And the Democrats seem to have sensed that, and so there's a tremendous example of strange bedfellows coming together that I believe, if we're successful, will work to the great benefit of American taxpayers.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KARL: The last-minute lobbying campaign included calls from the president to wavering conservatives in the House, as he was flying back from London on Air Force One.
Now, if they get it through the House tonight, they'll have a much easier time over here in the Senate. In fact, Senate minority leader Tom Daschle says that he will not vote to filibuster this bill, so the Republicans will almost certainly be able to pass the Medicare bill here in the Senate. The question now is whether or not they can get it passed in the House -- Lou.
DOBBS: All right, Jonathan Karl, our Capitol Hill correspondent, thank you very much.
Coming up next: President Bush is expected to speak from the White House momentarily. He is scheduled to land -- he is aboard Marine One on his way to the White House. We'll bring that to you live just as soon as the president arrives.
Also ahead: The secretary of the Department of Health and Human Services says this Medicare legislation would be the most significant improvement in health care in nearly four decades. Secretary Tommy Thompson joins us to tell us why.
And "Broken Borders," our special report tonight: new technology to track 28 million visitors who come to this country each and every year, too many of whom stay indefinitely and illegally. Lisa Sylvester reports from Washington.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: The first government crisis faced by my next guest focused squarely on Mexico. Robert Rubin's initial position on Mexico changed a lot of history in 1995. And he has come out with a new book, and we have Bob Rubin with us tonight.
Bob, it's good to have you here.
ROBERT RUBIN, FORMER TREASURY SECRETARY: It's very good to be with you, Lou.
DOBBS: Your book focuses on fiscal responsibility, much of which you brought to Washington, to the federal government, when it had been absent for better than three decades. How do you feel as you watch our deficits now swelling, the trade deficit at record levels, the federal budget at record levels?
RUBIN: I feel very deeply troubled, Lou. I think we have created an enormous future problem for ourselves, both with respect to our fiscal deficit and our trade deficit. And I think, in large measure, it was unnecessary. I think it was important to have fiscal stimulus when the economy got in difficulty about three years ago, but I think we could have done it with temporary measures, had all of the stimulus we needed, and have avoided almost all of this, what is now very serious long-term fiscal situation, which I think is a very serious threat to our economic well-being.
DOBBS: Our economic well-being is under threat from a number of a quarters, it seems. We have a very difficult time creating jobs in this country right now, keeping pace with population growth. We have a record trade deficit. We are watching the outsourcing of jobs. We have some disputation, if you will, on the direct of free trade. The Fed chairman, Alan Greenspan, has put it in two very simple choices, protection or free trade, as though there is no other choice. What is your thought about how to fix all of this?
RUBIN: Well, I think, No. 1, Lou, absolutely, we have to reestablish long-term fiscal discipline, and I think it is central to all of economic policy. Secondly, I do think that our open trading markets contributed substantially to our economic well-being in the '90s. I think it's the right path to go forward. But I do think we need to combine that with a domestic policy agenda that promotes productivity, which means, again, responsible fiscal policy that'll allow for high-level investment, public education, and the rest.
DOBBS: Bob, if you can excuse me just for one moment? The presidential helicopter, Marine One, is now landing on the South Lawn at the White House. The president and Mrs. Bush are stepping before the cameras and microphones right now.
GEORGE WALKER BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: ... spent some time today in Tony Blair's constituency, which was not only a lot of fun, but it was a chance to continue our dialogue about how to fight and defeat terror. We've got a special relationship with Great Britain, and that relationship was reaffirmed during the last three days.
Back here at home, I'm pleased that the Congress passed the Healthy Forests Initiative, which will help us maintain our national treasure, our forests, begin providing a common-sense strategy, making sure that the fire hazards that we've seen over the last couple of summers are mitigated as best as possible.
Secondly, I was pleased that the House of Representatives passed an energy bill. This nation needs an energy bill. It needs an energy plan. A minority of senators are holding it up. For the sake of our national security and economic security, the Senate's got to pass this bill.
And finally, as you know, the Medicare legislation is -- will be debated tonight in the House of Representatives, and eventually in the Senate. It is an important time for members of the U.S. Congress to honor our obligations to our seniors by providing a modern Medicare system, a system that includes prescription drugs and choices for our seniors. I urge the House and the Senate to pass this good piece of legislation.
We're glad to be home. It's good to see you all. Good night. Thank you.
DOBBS: President Bush and the first lady, Laura Bush, returning and obviously delighted to be home after a three-day visit in London, to the United Kingdom, and imploring Capitol Hill, Republicans and Democrats, to pass that Medicare legislation. The energy bill, as we reported, meeting stiff resistance and a final vote delayed, disappointing both the White House and the Republican leadership on Capitol Hill.
We're talking with Bob Rubin, treasury secretary in the Clinton administration, who's written a terrific book. And I want to go to a couple of the issues that you've just started to embark upon when the president returned.
RUBIN: Terrific.
DOBBS: The idea of bringing forth fiscal discipline when we have -- we're emerging from a very difficult economic downturn, we have tremendous demands because of the war against radical Islamist terror across the world -- how does one meet those challenges and stay, as you put it, fiscally responsible?
RUBIN: I think what we should have done, Lou, and I think what we should still do is to have whatever level of short-term stimulus we need, with temporary tax cuts that are directed predominantly to those who will spend the largest portion of what they get, plus I think we should have had more of the stimulus in the form of aid to states for infrastructure, schools and the rest, all of which would have been more jobs-effective, in my judgment. And we should have avoided tax cuts that had these enormous long-term deficit effects that I think are very deeply troubling and I think quite dangers, with respect to our economic future.
DOBBS: Is there any...
RUBIN: And in fact, the very issues that you mentioned -- these issues of terrorism and geopolitics are not going away. I think we're going to have continued large-scale expenditures required for defense or homeland security. And the more that one is focused on those kinds of issues, the more important it is that we have a sound long-term fiscal regime as an underpinning for a sound long-term economy.
DOBBS: And that sound long-term economy looks fairly robust right now, within the snapshot of the last few months -- 7.2 percent GDP growth, 8.1 percent improvement in productivity. These are striking numbers. We've got the lowest jobless claims in 33 months. Have we turned a corner? I'm going to turn to you now as the...
RUBIN: I don't know the...
(CROSSTALK)
RUBIN: I don't know the answer to that, Lou. There's immense stimulus in the system right now from defense, from homeland security, from the Fed's accommodative policy. About 15 percent to 20 percent of it is estimated to come from that portion of the tax cuts that come within this period. The problem is, we could have had the tax cut portion of it with temporary tax cuts, as I mentioned a moment ago, and avoided these enormous effects on our long-term fiscal position, which are adverse and threaten to increase interest rates, undermine consumer business confidence and undermine our economy. And that was totally unnecessary, with respect to short-term stimulus.
DOBBS: Not much demand for Rubinomics right now in Washington?
(LAUGHTER)
RUBIN: Well, I don't know what you want to call it. I just wish there was a lot more demand for fiscal discipline.
DOBBS: Bob Rubin, thank you very much, former treasury secretary. We thank you. A terrific new book. And let me see if I can get this title right -- "In an Uncertain World: Tough Choices From Wall Street to Washington."
RUBIN: That is absolutely correct, Lou.
DOBBS: Terrific.
RUBIN: Thank you very much.
DOBBS: Bob, thanks a lot. Bob Rubin.
RUBIN: Thank you, Lou. Very good to be with you.
DOBBS: An estimated 28 million visitors enter this country every year. They include tourists, students, temporary workers, all who are supposed to leave when their visas expire. But as Lisa Sylvester now reports, many of these visitors do not leave, and they stay illegally, adding to a growing problem of illegal immigration.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LISA SYLVESTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: The U.S. government estimates 40 percent of U.S. visitors overstay their visas.
ROSEMARY JENKS, NUMBERSUSA: We don't know who these people are. We don't know what they're doing here. We don't know with whom they're involved when they're here.
SYLVESTER: At least two of the 9/11 hijackers were in the country on expired student visas. A new exit/entry program called U.S.-Visit went into effect at the nation's busiest airport in Atlanta and will be implemented at more than 100 airports by January. Seaports and border entry points will be phased in over the next year. Visitors will have their two index fingers digitally scanned and a digital photo taken when they enter the country and will have to check out when they leave. Travelers from Canada, Japan and most European countries that do not need visas are exempt from the program. U.S.- Visit is designed to keep terrorists out and to stop the flow of illegal immigration.
ASA HUTCHINSON, HOMELAND SECURITY UNDERSECRETARY: Can we protect our borders of the United States? I think that we can, in terms of people misusing travel documents through fraudulent means because it's hard to escape the reality of a biometric identifier.
SYLVESTER: The United States caps the number of permanent immigrants to no more than 26,000 people per country every year. Twenty-eight million visitors arrived in the United States in 2002, most coming from just four countries. Under U.S.-Visit, anyone who overstays their visa will have trouble re-entering the country if they ever leave. But security experts expect some glitches.
JAMES LEWIS, CSIS: We're going to find grandmothers being interrogated, people being denied visas who really don't pose any threat at all.
SYLVESTER: There is another problem. The program does not impact the thousands of people who bypass the visa system, sneaking across the border.
(on camera): While U.S.-Visit lets immigration officials check if someone is in the country who is not supposed to be, critics say foreign tourists and business travelers will be inconvenienced by long waiting lines at the airport.
Lisa Sylvester, CNN, Washington.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: Coming up next: heroes. Tonight, we bring you a follow- up on the story of a young soldier we introduced you to some months ago. He has faced incredible challenges, and he has met them with remarkable courage. His is a wonderful story.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Tonight in heroes the story of a legal immigrant who has already made tremendous contributions to his adopted country. In September, we reported to you about Hilario Bermanis. He lost three of his limbs in a rocket-propelled grenade attack.
Since then, he has received tremendous support from many of you who watched this broadcast. And as you will see, it has helped this hero recover from his devastating injuries. Casey Wian has his story.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): When we last visited Army Specialist Hilario Bermanis, he was becoming an American citizen, yet the physical and emotional wounds he suffered fighting for his adopted country were still too fresh for him to speak about the experience. Now, he's ready.
SPEC. HILARIO BERMANIS JR., U.S. ARMY: It was pretty hard. Like, first, like, when I saw, like, missing limbs I just, like down, depressed. Then slowly getting better now.
WIAN: Bermanis is adjusting to a prosthetic hand. Soon he'll try to learn to walk on prosthetic legs.
BERMANIS JR.: It will feel weird at first to walk, stand on two legs again. But I'll get better and used to it.
WIAN: Then he plans to return to his native Micronesia.
BERMANIS JR.: Go back home. I miss the food, back home food.
WIAN: For now, home has come to him, father Hilario senior is staying with the son he calls H.B. while he rehabilitates at a facility for families of wounded military personnel. H.B. Has received hundreds of letters and financial support. HILARIO BERMANIS SR., FATHER: I like too take this opportunity to thank so many people who have written H.B., contributed to his recovery fund. I have taken every effort to send a thank-you note, thank-you letter to every single one of them.
WIAN: They're thankful for the medical care and support Bermanis has received from his chain of command. He spent Veteran's Day at White House.
BERMANIS JR.: I went in, like, wow, you know, like, pretty amazing.
WIAN: So is the attitude of this 21-year-old.
BERMANIS JR.: People, like, say you're a hero. You're an American hero, like, something, I think about it. I was only doing my job. No way you're being hero doing your job, going to the line of fire.
WIAN: Casey Wian, CNN, reporting.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: If you'd like to contribute to the recovery of Hilario Bermanis, please go to our Web site cnn.com/lou, there we have the address, information available for you where you can send donations for Hilario Bermanis as well as the fund that helps all disabled veterans from the war in Iraq and Afghanistan. Again, that's cnn.com/lou and they will -- there you will find all of the necessary information.
Next, the Secretary of the Department of Health and Human Services, Tommy Thompson, will be here. We're talking about what he calls the most significant improvement in healthcare in nearly four decades. The vote, however, is not certain.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: We've all just heard President Bush live on the south lawn of the White House after arriving back from London, lobbying members of Congress to pass his plan for medicare reform. My guest tonight says the nation's seniors cannot afford for Congress to fail on this improvement in medicare but medicare is such a complex program it would be impossible to please everyone, no matter what. Joining me now, the Health and Human Services Secretary Tommy Thompson. Mr. Secretary, good to have you here.
SEC. TOMMY THOMPSON, HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES: It's always a privilege to be with you, Lou. Thank you.
DOBBS: Mr. Secretary, you, the other members of the cabinet, the White House, the president himself, the Republican leadership seem to be scrambling on this. How tough is this vote going to be?
THOMPSON: It's going have to be very close and it's very tough. This medicare bill is the most complex piece of legislation that this Congress has had to face in many years and it's going to be very difficult. But it's so important because what it does, it gives the seniors of America the opportunity to get coverage for drugs, something they have been asking both political parties to accomplish for over ten years.
And now we're on the five-yard line. All we have to do is push it over, score the touchdown and give our seniors the prescription drug coverage they have been asking for.
DOBBS: The reasonable expectation was, in particular, Senate Democrats would represent a major obstacle to this legislation early on. It now appears that the Democrats in the Senate have -- are prepared to support the legislation, your problem is in the House and that problem is with conservatives.
THOMPSON: Well, there's no question, we have some difficulties with some conservative Republicans who believe that this goes too far and that there's not enough cost controls in it and not enough competition. But we're working on them. We're trying to convince them, as well as some middle of the road Democrats and some conservative Democrats that this is the right thing for America.
This is going to allow seniors, especially low-income seniors, to get benefits that they never could hope to have and never could expect to pay for. Senior that's under 100 percent of poverty is going to receive 97 percent of their drugs cost-free from the federal government. Those up to 135 percent, 95 percent, and those up to 150 percent, 90 percent. It's a wonderful, generous benefit for low- income seniors, and all of us know that have been out there talking to seniors that this is something they're requesting.
DOBBS: Mr. Secretary, there is also criticism that the plan will in point of fact move many people away from their private, most often private drug prescription plans as a result of this legislation, that there's too much incentive, if you will, to the private sector to make way for this reform plan. How do you respond?
THOMPSON: Well, I say that that's just not correct, because this is a voluntary program. Seniors can join it or they don't have to join it. They can pick and choose. That's the beauty of this plan, that there's going to be, for the first time, seniors in America are going to have choices, just like you do, like I do, like every federal employee does, have choices to pick the best insurance policy for myself and my family.
Seniors now are going to have the same opportunity, something they haven't had under the current program, which is just one program, and that's a fee for service, and that's a government-controlled, price-controlled mechanism that we run from the federal government.
Now they're going to be that program and other programs as well. So seniors will have choices, which gives them a lot better opportunity to pick and choose and come up with the best program for themselves and their families.
DOBBS: Mr. Secretary, you're the point man for the president on this legislation.
THOMPSON: I am.
DOBBS: We talked with Bill Thomas here, the chairman of the Ways & Means Committee, last night, one of the point people certainly in the House leadership.
THOMPSON: Very much so.
DOBBS: What's your best judgment as to what happens with this legislation when the vote occurs tonight?
THOMPSON: Well, we're hoping that we're going to have a cross- over from some Democrats, as well as get -- convince the conservative Republicans to vote for it, and get enough votes to come out with a victory and score the touchdown. I predict a victory.
DOBBS: OK. That's what I was getting at. I knew what you hoped. I just wanted to get the actual count.
THOMPSON: I predict a victory. It's going to be close, but we're going to have a victory.
DOBBS: Health and Human Services Secretary Tommy Thompson, thank you.
Now to somewhat less weighty matters. The low carbohydrate diet debate has been in full swing this week. Beer companies have begun to embrace low carb lifestyle and the accompanying boost in their profits. But at least one industry isn't singing the praises of no- carb nation. Bill Tucker reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BILL TUCKER, CNN FINANCIAL NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Bread makers not loafing around, but rising to the low carbohydrate challenge, gathering in Providence, Rhode Island for the very first national bread summit.
Bread, after having gone unchallenged as part of our daily diet for thousands of years, not selling as well as it once did. But neither are a lot of other foods, like tortillas. That industry realizing its crisis early held a seminar in May on the impact of low carb diets on the industry. The impact is not good.
Slim Fast, which is carbohydrate-friendly, isn't doing well either. A drop in sales tanked Unilever's profits by 23 percent. It's the marketing manifestation of the herd mentality.
JOHN PARTILLA, BRAND BUZZ: We're driven by this desire to all connect to one another through whether it's popular or cultural trends. And some of these trends, whether it's Atkins or South Beach diet, and the books that are written, we like to partake in these things just to kind of be a part of the latest social trend.
TUCKER: Suddenly, everyone wants a piece of the low carb market. Beef sales have risen 12 of the last 14 quarters, and cattle stock has dropped to 30-year lows. Even beer companies are advertising their carb contents.
Coors so excited by the trend it announced this week it too will make and market a low-carb brew.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, ADVERTISING)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This beer has half the carbs of Bud Lite.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TUCKER: Miller Lite showing the doubters why, announcing its profits rose and its parent company's bottom line grew 60 percent.
And for those really on the carb watch, you can also get low-carb high protein chips to go with that beer -- Lou.
DOBBS: I think probably you and I should get away from this story just as quickly as possible, Bill Tucker. Thank you very much.
Coming up next -- the latest scandal to rock Wall Street taking its toll on the markets. Christine Romans.
And we'll share some of your thoughts on our series of special reports, "Broken Borders."
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: In just a few moments, the editors of the three major business news magazines will be here to give us some analysis on the drama unfolding on Capitol Hill right this moment. But first, we're going to turn to Christine Romans to bring us up to date on the drama on Wall Street today.
CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN FINANCIAL NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Drama, indeed. Two weeks in a row lower for the Dow, Lou, and that hasn't happened since March of this year. It was tax selling, a weak dollar, higher oil prices over the past couple of weeks all culminating to drag the Dow down 2 percent.
Oil and terrorism fears yanked airlines 9 percent lower this week. Computer hardware, financial stocks, biotechs, also lower. Only General Electric, the only widely held stock to advance this week.
Money has slowed in the mutual funds. Last week, $1 billion fewer went into stock funds, and bonds saw an outflow.
The mutual fund scandal has something to do with that, dragging down stocks in the past few weeks, along with global security fears, Lou. But keep in mind, the Dow is still up more than 12 percent this year.
DOBBS: I am delighted to keep that in mind, and I'll be even more delighted when we get these scandals resolved and the bad guys in jail.
ROMANS: Indeed.
DOBBS: All right. Thanks, Christine Romans.
Tonight's thought is on corporate leadership. "It is unfortunate we can't buy many business executives for what they are worth and sell them for what they think they are worth." That from a fellow by the name of Malcolm Forbes.
Coming up next -- "Newsmakers" from a chilly reception for the president in Britain to a surprising suggestion or two from Howard Dean. The race for the White House taking shape. The editors of "Forbes," "Fortune," "BusinessWeek" join me next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Now the results of our poll. The question, "How important do you believe it is to capture or kill Osama bin Laden?" 80 percent of you say, very, 12 percent somewhat, 8 percent said not at all.
Howard Dean, the Democratic front-runner for the presidential nomination, says he would implement a far-reaching re-regulation of business to restore faith in scandal plagued corporate America and Wall Street. This while members of Congress battle over energy and Medicare bills that stand to have a dramatic impact on the lives of millions of us.
Join joining us now for this week's news makers, Steve Forbes, editor-in-chief of "Forbes magazine, Rik Kirkland, managing editor of "Fortune" magazine, Steve Shepherd, managing editor of "Businessweek." Good to have you all here.
The president just returned, Steve, from three days in the United Kingdom. Is it a trip you think he preferred not to have made?
STEVE SHEPARD, "BUSINESSWEEK": I think he did himself a lot of good. I think he went a long away of erasing the stereotype of a Texas cowboy. The speech he made over there was really quite good.
It's interesting that the attacks in Turkey took place at about the same time, so we still have the fundamental problem of convincing people that the war in Iraq is the right way to fight terrorism. And I'm not sure he can convince the people in the street.
RIK KIRKLAND, "FORTUNE": But the attacks also reinforced the theme that this is an ongoing persistent malevolent threat and, you know, fortitude and perseverance, which is a message that he and Blair were giving out is the only way to deal with that.
DOBBS: Robert Rubin, the former treasury secretary under President Clinton, saying there needs to be more fiscal discipline within the context of the war against terror, as Rik said, and against the tremendous demands put on by the tax cut. Do you have any thoughts about the need for fiscal discipline here? STEVE FORBES, "FORBES": Well, his version of fiscal discipline is increasing taxes. I think reducing tax rates makes the economy stronger and gives us wealth to fight the wars and some of the challenges at home. Fiscal discipline would mean spending discipline which this administration and Congress manifestly have not done.
DOBBS: Spending here is raging. Are you getting concerned yet, Rik?
KIRKLAND: Drunken sailor levels, yes. It's just every bill that comes through...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The sailors...
KIRKLAND: Sorry about that, sailors. It's awful. Not only have we swung from, you know, surpluses as far as the eye can see to huge deficits, but the deficits are vastly understated probably by $5 trillion in this decade alone.
SHEPARD: If this is what passes for legislation, bring back gridlock, my goodness.
KIRKLAND: Yes.
SHEPARD: That energy bill in particular.
DOBBS Getting a warm and fuzzy feeling about that?
SHEPARD: Gridlock is good. In '90s, when things were cooking in the economy, nothing passed. Maybe we need to go back to that.
DOBBS: The prospect of looking at $400 billion, I think most of understand that that is just the opening bid for the cost of this Medicare reform legislation. Another $31 billion estimated for the energy that didn't survive a test vote today. How important are they, in your judgment?
FORBES: Well, it's not just what's happening on Medicare. That needs a huge overhaul and this bill doesn't even begin to do that. That's got to be done after the next election. The unfunded liabilities there are greater than Social Security.
DOBBS: Is this a liability liable for President Bush, the failure on energy and possible failure...
FORBES: I think energy, they would be doing him a favor to kill that bill. The only thing not in that bill, had everything except my mother-in-law.
SHEPARD: There's a subsidy for Hooters restaurant in Shreveport, Louisiana in the energy bill. It's just a very, very bad bill.
KIRKLAND: Like rain forests in Iowa?
SHEPARD: Hooters and polluters.
KIRLAND: Hooters, I like that.
DOBBS: Hooters and polluters, Rik. That's almost worth stealing.
This president is facing one of -- looks like he will be facing one of nine candidates for the Democratic nomination. The front- runner Howard Dean decides that he wants to talk re-regulation. What do you think?
SHEPARD: Well, politically it plays very well in Iowa. But I think we have to recognize there already is re-regulation. We have Sarbanes-Oxley, accounting oversight board, more regulation on the New York Stock Exchange, more regulation of mutual funds and they're not going let the FCC deregulate the media as much as they want to. It's a reality...
DOBBS: Do you think the administration's given up on media?
SHEPARD: I don't think they've given up, but it's buried in a spending bill. It's going to be hard for him to veto the bill. So, I think he's going to lose on media deregulation.
KIRKLAND: I think the real issue for Dean is he keeps running more left, a little bit more populous, which is great for the primaries. He's got a lot of energy, a lot of excitement. But usually you have to turn toward the center, and that's what worked for Clinton. And it's getting harder and harder for him to do that.
DOBBS: Steve, your thoughts?
FORBES: I think that's right. And I think we Republicans are devoutly hoping Mr. Dean wins, because he'll be in the tradition of Mondale and McGovern. And he's not going to -- given the type of personality he's not going to...
DOBBS: A fellow by the name of Bill Clinton run and win the nomination in '92?
FORBES: I didn't. I thought he was formidable in the campaign, trust me. I was hoping for Jerry Brown.
(CROSSTALK)
FORBES: Jerry Brown was for a flat tax.
SHEPARD: It's not going to be a shoe-in for Mr. Bush. Yesterday in Michigan, they announced the unemployment rate for October went up to an 11-year high. So, we're still not out of the woods in the economy.
DOBBS: The issue, which I think is represented by those facts, trade, outsourcing, a massive trade deficit, is it going to be a significant issue by your best reckoning at this point, in the presidential election?
FORBES: If the economy is doing well, as it should next year, it will hurt in certain areas of the country. But overall, not just as it didn't hurt Reagan when we had an outflow of manufacturing jobs in the mid 1980s. So it depends on the economy, how much that issue's going to bite politically.
KIRKLAND: I do think, though, longer term is a troubling trend. The Democratic party, which always had sort of a minority, a significant minority of tree trade types, someone who believes in free trade, is really abandoning all of that. It means Bush, as we have seen in the last few years, is going to be pushed against that by becoming more protectionist himself and it will lead to more measures that aren't going to be helpful for the economy.
SHEPARD: (AUDIO GAP) He may get through the elect, but we're still going to have these problems to deal with after that.
FORBES: Part of it is too much regulation. The FCC is still in the stone age when it comes to broadband. Korea has 100 times more broadband than the United States. It's crazy.
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: Steve, thank you. Steve Forbes, Rik Kirkland and Steve Shepherd, we thank you all three for being here. We're going to have to work on some of these fine-tuned Democratic issues here.
Finally tonight, a look at some of your thoughts. Quickly we have time for a couple.
From Los Angeles, "Isn't it amazing that we don't even know who the insurgents are in Iraq, yet Turkey already has people in custody from yesterday's bombing. What is the problem with our intel?" That from Karen Dicker.
From Olympia, Washington, "Thanks, Lou, for staying on the 2 most important issues to the working people of America. The free trade of jobs leaving our borders from the multinationals and the plight of all of the U.S. suffering under the deluge of illegal immigrants. The only example of consistent coverage of TV and I am a rampaging vegetarian, dog-hugging, tree-hugging liberal offering that opinion." And Cliff High, we appreciate it.
We love hearing from you. Send us your thoughts at loudobbs@cnn.com. That's our show for tonight. We thank you for being with us. Monday we begin a series of special reports, "The Throwaway Society." And we hope you'll be with us. We hope you have a very pleasant weekend. For all of us here, good night from New York City. "ANDERSON COOPER 360" coming up next.
END
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America's Obsession With Diets Goes Low-Carbohydrate; Donkey Carts Used in Iraq to Launch Missiles Against U.S.>
