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Lou Dobbs Tonight

Congress Nearing Medicare Reform; Cause of Hepatitis Outbreak Revealed

Aired November 24, 2003 - 18:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR: Tonight, the biggest hepatitis outbreak in this country's history. The FDA finally admits it knows who is to blame. Is our imported food safe and are food inspectors doing their job? Kitty Pilgrim reports in "Broken Borders."
President Bush on the verge of a historic victory on Medicare. I'll be joined by one of the bill's most outspoken opponents, Senate Minority Leader Tom Daschle, and one of the bill's most prominent supporters, Bill Novelli, chief executive of the AARP.

And continuing scandal in the $7 trillion mutual fund industry. Senator Richard Shelby, chairman of the Senate Banking Committee, joins us to tell us what Congress and regulators must do to earn back the trust of investors.

ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT for Monday, November 24. Here now, Lou Dobbs.

DOBBS: Good evening.

Tonight, the Senate is on the verge of approving the most extensive and most expensive overhaul of Medicare in its 38-year history. The bill will give a prescription drug benefit to some 40 million older and disabled Americans. It will also introduce private competition in Medicare for the first time. But these reforms come at a high price. They will cost at least $400 billion over 10 years. Critics say the cost will be far higher because the bill contains no spending limits.

Jonathan Karl reports from Capitol Hill -- Jonathan.

JONATHAN KARL, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Lou, the president is on the verge of a major legislative victory here on the Medicare prescription drug bill that will enable him to sign that bill into law and giving him a major issue to campaign on in next year's election.

But the victory will come only after Republicans up here were able to knock down two Democratic efforts to block passage of this bill.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. BILL FRIST (R-TN), MAJORITY LEADER: It will be decided today. It is a historic opportunity. I encourage all of our colleagues on both sides of the aisle to put politics aside, to put partisanship aside, to put procedural tricks aside. We're talking about the health care security of seniors, both now and in the future.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KARL: So, with some Democratic support, Republicans were able to prevail, knocking down first a Democratic filibuster and then a technical vote by Democrats that also required 60 votes. They got only 61. So it was very close, Lou.

Now, after all this, there is still a lot of talking to be done. Democrats can talk for several more hours, perhaps bringing this not to a vote until tomorrow. And Democrats are vowing that, even after a final vote on this, they will continue to fight this and bring this issue into the election.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. EDWARD KENNEDY (D), MASSACHUSETTS: We are strongly committed to make sure that our Republican friends are not going to hijack the prescription drug bill, when they are really attempting to undermine the Medicare system. We're going continue to fight this tonight. We'll fight it tomorrow. We're going to fight it in every opportunity that is available to us in the days and the weeks ahead. And we're going to fight it to next year. And we're going fight it in the congressional elections and we're going to fight it in the presidential elections as well.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KARL: Now, when the final vote is taken and we get the final roll call, you will see several prominent conservative Republicans voting against this bill, for the very reason you alluded to in the beginning of this -- of your show, Lou. And that is, they believe that this bill will actually cost more than $400 billion and this will be a massive burden on a Medicare system that is already going broke.

But, at the end of the day, it looks like there will be an overwhelming majority that will approve this bill and the president will be able to sign it into law.

DOBBS: Jonathan, did Senator Kennedy perhaps suggest something about the prescription drug benefit that he didn't intend, that is, allowing the Republicans to hijack the issue and therefore the credit with voters?

KARL: Well, that is something that clearly Democrats have been worried about, that they -- that Republicans will now take this issue and be able to campaign on it. This has been, from the beginning, a Democratic issue. Senator Kennedy sponsored a bill back in the 1970s to get prescription drug coverage. And now it is finally going to get done by the Republicans.

But what he was talking about is that they have taken this bill and they will have the prescription drug benefit. What's he concerned is the changes the bill will make to Medicare itself. He says the benefit is one thing. But, in his view, the changes that the bill make to Medicare are simply not worth the cost. DOBBS: Jonathan Karl, reporting from Capitol Hill, thank you.

President Bush today took a break from the Medicare debate. He signed a $400 billion defense spending bill into law. Later, the president traveled to Colorado, where he met privately with the families of soldiers who have been killed on active duty.

White House correspondent Dana Bash is traveling with the president and reports now from Fort Carson, Colorado -- Dana.

DANA BASH, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Lou, today's visit to Fort Carson was designed as a good old-fashioned morale-booster from the commander in chief.

And President Bush has admitted himself that it has been a bad and deadly month for the United States in Iraq. So, standing in a sea of troops applauding him was certainly welcome imagery for this White House.

Now, Fort Carson is heavily involved in Iraq; 11,000 troops are currently deployed there from this base and more are on the way. So, the president wanted to thank them, and he did, and explain once again why they are there and why they have to stay.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The work we are in is not easy. Yet, it is essential. The failure of democracy in Iraq would provide new bases for the terrorist network and embolden terrorists and their allies around the world. The failure of democracy in those countries would convince terrorists that America backs down under attack.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BASH: Now, Fort Carson has also been a place that has suffered a great deal of loss in Iraq. About 30 soldiers who have trained and are based here at Fort Carson have died during the war in Iraq.

And the president just now left a meeting, a private meeting, with family members of those who died. He met with about 100 people. That particular meeting was supposed to last 45 minutes. It lasted almost two hours. And there has been some criticism from Democrats and even some family members of those killed in Iraq that the president is not as aggressive in being public in his thanks and his appreciation and even acknowledging the deaths in Iraq.

But the White House says, this is simply a sense of style -- a case of style -- that the president prefers to meet privately with families when he goes to military bases, just as he did today, and that he also prefers to send letters and, essentially, express his condolences in private. His critics say that it is a matter of politics. The White House, as you can imagine, Lou, begs to differ -- Lou.

DOBBS: And, Dana, I think it is worth pointing out, is it not, that the president is meeting -- has been meeting privately with the families of those killed in action since the beginning of the war against Saddam Hussein.

BASH: That's right. He's gone to Fort Bragg, Camp Lejeune and other bases. And at all of those stops, nearly all those stops, he has had private meetings. The cameras have not been allowed in. But he has met privately with family members of those who died and also soldiers who have been injured -- Lou.

DOBBS: Dana Bash, thank you very much.

Less than a week after the president visited London, French President Jacques Chirac went to the British capital to meet with British Prime Minister Tony Blair. Their meeting was designed to bridge differences over Iraq and European defense.

But the French president again criticized U.S. and British policy in Iraq. Chirac said sovereignty should be passed to Iraqis more quickly than the coalition plans to. President Chirac and his close ally, Germany, also disagree about Iraq. German Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder now says he's prepared to consider forgiving at least part of Iraq's $5 billion debt to Germany. France so far has refused to say whether it will forgive any of Iraq's debt.

In Iraq today, insurgents wounded an American soldier in a bomb attack in the northern city of Mosul. That attack came one day after terrorists killed two American soldiers in the city. The violence is taking place in an area the coalition has considered to be before relatively secure, compared to Baghdad and so the called Sunni Triangle.

Walt Rodgers reports from Baghdad -- Walt.

WALTER RODGERS, CNN SR. INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Hello, Lou.

The murder of those two U.S. soldiers on Sunday was chilling, if not barbaric. According to Army now, a mob descended on their car. Both soldiers were shot through the head. And their bodies were dragged from the car, dragged into the street, the dead bodies pummeled. The mob descended on the dead bodies and stripped the dead American soldiers of their rings, their watches, their wallets, anything of a personal nature.

Initially, eyewitness reports suggested that the soldiers throats had been slit as well. The Army says that is not the case. All of this other information, however, is coming from what are believed to be credible eyewitnesses. Why Mosul, a city in northern Iraq, which indeed had been relatively quiet until recent weeks? I was with the 101st Airborne throughout late August, early September.

And colonels at that time were privately predicting to me that there would be a shift in the center of action to Mosul. They could see the resistance building in Mosul. Perhaps there was not much they could do about it. One thing to remember, however, this insurgency is no longer limited to the Sunni Triangle. That is Tikrit, Fallujah and the Baghdad area. It is openly hot and active in Mosul. And don't forget the Italians who were killed in Nasiriyah, again, far out of that so-called Sunni Triangle -- Lou.

DOBBS: Walt, what was the reaction amongst the American forces there in Mosul? What is the plan of the commanders there?

RODGERS: I can't answer that because I'm in Baghdad. I don't know.

But I can tell you this, that you could look on the face of General Mark Kimmitt yesterday at the briefing when he was asked about the terms -- or about the conditions of the soldiers' death. He couldn't comment, wouldn't comment on the time. But you could see the rage on General Kimmitt's face. And I think you can transpose that rage to every member of the 101st Airborne up in the Mosul area -- Lou.

DOBBS: Now, Walt, the Iraqi Governing Council today shut down the offices of the Arab television network in Baghdad, saying that it promoted violence. The reasoning behind that? Is there some sort of national Iraqi communication broadcasting facility there now?

RODGERS: Well, what has happened is that Al-Arabiya, the Iraqi cable network, was shut down because the American-appointed governing council objected to Al-Arabiya broadcasting the full audiotape last week of Saddam Hussein.

Now, they called that incitement. And, by the way, the American- appointed governing council also threatened CNN and BBC with punitive action. Our networks didn't cover -- carry the whole thing. But, again, let me tell you why this was done. It is real simple. The governing council heard the voice of Saddam Hussein. People here believe in their head Saddam will never come back.

But, in their hearts, Saddam's voice still strikes terror into the hearts of the Iraqi people and the governing council. And until he's dead, it is going to be a big problem -- Lou.

DOBBS: Is there, though, Walt, a national Iraqi broadcast facility there, one operation for all Iraqis?

RODGERS: Not yet. And Al-Arabiya is not based here in Baghdad. It is one of those Pan-Arab broadcast stations.

So what they really did was just shut down the operations here, confiscated their satellite transmission equipment and so forth. They didn't shut down Al-Arabiya throughout the rest of the Gulf -- Lou.

DOBBS: OK, Walt, thank you very much. Walt Rodgers, reporting from Baghdad, thank you.

Coming up next, the Democratic presidential candidates square off in Iowa -- one of the issues, of course, Medicare. And they talked about tax cuts and a lot more. Our senior political correspondent, Candy Crowley, will report for us from Des Moines.

And "The Throwaway Society." We begin tonight a series of special reports on a mounting waste problem in this country. Peter Viles will report.

And Senate Banking Committee Chairman Richard Shelby of Alabama joins us to talk about his commitment to clean up the now scandal- ridden mutual fund industry and to protect the interests of nearly 100 million investors.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: Democratic front-runner Howard Dean is now the front- runner in the latest poll in the home state of Senator John Kerry, leading, in fact, by 9 percentage points over Kerry.

Well, Dean today faced off with five other Democratic candidates in a debate in Iowa. Senators Kerry and Edwards took part in the debate by satellite from Washington, where they were debating the Medicare prescription benefit bill, that bill, plus the war in Iraq, gay marriage, among the topics of the debate.

Candy Crowley is in Des Moines and has report for us -- Candy.

CANDY CROWLEY, CNN SR. POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Lou, the Iowa poll numbers show right now that Richard Gephardt is in the lead by a slight bit. So you might be able to put two and two together and know that most of the steam in this debate, the fifth sponsored debate of the Democratic National Committee, most of the steam came between Howard Dean and Richard Gephardt.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. RICHARD GEPHARDT (D-MO), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We didn't cut the most vulnerable, as he did in Vermont. He cut Medicaid. He cut the prescription drug program. He tried to eliminate it three times in the mid-'90s that he had in the state of Vermont. He cut funding for the blind and the disabled.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CROWLEY: Now, Dean says that that is a big exaggeration.

But the point here was that both Richard Gephardt and John Kerry are trying to make some inroads into those high poll numbers that Dean has. And, at some times, it looked like kind of the one-two punch, with the first punch coming from Gephardt and the second coming from Kerry.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HOWARD DEAN (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: DEAN: Well, what I intend to do in Medicare is to increase reimbursements for states like Iowa and Vermont, which are 50th and 49th respectively.

SEN. JOHN KERRY (D-MA), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Are you going to slow the rate of growth, Governor, yes or no?

DEAN: We're going to do what we have to do to make sure that Medicare lasts... KERRY: Are you going to slow the rate of growth, Governor, because that's a cut?

DEAN: Well, I'd like to slow the rate of growth of this debate, if I could..

(LAUGHTER)

DEAN: But we're going to make sure that Medicare works.

KERRY: Well, I'm sure you'd like to avoid it altogether, but...

TOM BROKAW, MODERATOR: Let me ask you, Senator Kerry...

DEAN: Medicare is off the table. We are not going to cut Medicare in order to balance the budget.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CROWLEY: So the one thing we know is that everyone on the stage and, indeed, those back in Washington all said that they would vote against this Medicare bill. On just about everything else, they had shades of difference and then some big, wide gaps -- Lou.

DOBBS: Candy, thank you very much -- Candy Crowley.

Coming up next here, "The Throwaway Society," our series of special reports this week on a wasteful nation. Tonight, we focus on the multibillion dollar business of trash and its cost to the country. Peter Viles reports.

And "Broken Borders" -- tonight, disease, viruses crossing our porous borders in the fruits and vegetables we eat. What is the FDA doing? Kitty Pilgrim reports.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: Ours is a society so dedicated to convenience that conservation now is seen, in many cases, as an almost outdated notion. From throwaway clothes and computers to paper packaging, we generate so much trash that many cities and towns in this country have nowhere to put it.

Peter Viles reports now on our "Throwaway Society."

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

PETER VILES, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): How's this for a national motto: When in doubt, throw it out? Packaging, paper, wasted food, cardboard boxes, C.D.s and DVDs, our national trash heap runneth over.

PETER DEJANA, OWNER, DEJANA INDUSTRIES INC.: We find it easiest, all of us, to just throw away.

VILES: Peter DeJana is in the trash hauling business, and business is good.

DEJANA: Over the last 20 years, and particularly over the last 10, 15 years, we have seen a dramatic increase in the amount of garbage that's being generated in our area.

VILES: 1960, the average American threw out 2.7 pounds of garbage per day. That amount rose steadily, peaking at 4.7 pounds a day in 1999, before dropping slightly as the economy weakened.

Americans generate 229 million tons of household trash every year. And it is everywhere. There are 6,000 closed landfills in the United States, one next door to this Long Island golf course. Paper is a major problem. It is a third of household garbage. Americans now get so much junk mail that the post office is recommending that we buy bigger mailboxes.

Nobody knows trash like New Yorkers. And their attitude is typical. They generate 12,000 tons of it every day. And they have every pound hauled outside the city to be buried or burned somewhere else.

JOHN DOHERTY, NEW YORK CITY SANITATION COMMISSIONER: Most of the trash goes to Pennsylvania. And that's one of the problems, because Pennsylvania is not allowing any new transfers -- waste disposal facilities to open, no new landfills. And they're not allowing a new capacity at any of the landfills.

VILES: One way to manage trash is to make it expensive. Thousands of cities have gone to a fee system known as pay as you throw.

MATT HALE, OFFICE OF SOLID WASTE, EPA: We have got, right now, almost 10,000 communities that have curbside recycling systems. And probably about half that number have some kind of pay-as-you-throw system.

VILES: But one of the biggest trends in trash is not community- based.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

VILES: That trend is regionalization, fewer landfills, but they are growing larger in size, which means that most cities and towns are solving their trash problem by shipping their trash to someone else -- Lou.

DOBBS: When the real answer would be to keep it in state next to the community that is creating it.

VILES: This has become a big interstate trade issue. You have a lot of states that are importers of trash, Pennsylvania, Virginia, Ohio. It's a big issue in all those states.

DOBBS: Pete, thanks -- Peter Viles.

Well, turning now to our presidential report, "Broken Borders," the biggest outbreak of hepatitis A in this country has now been traced to green onions imported from Mexico. The Food and Drug Administration said Friday the scallions from Mexico were responsible for sickening hundreds of people in Pennsylvania. Importing disease into this country is the subject of our report tonight.

Kitty Pilgrim has it.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KITTY PILGRIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Fruits and vegetables, five a day are recommended for your health, but not if they are contaminated; 20 percent of our fresh fruits and vegetables are imported, but very little inspected.

Green onions sickened 605 people and three died after they ate them at a Mexican food restaurant, Chi-Chi's, in western Pennsylvania, the largest single outbreak of hepatitis A in the country. The FDA issued a green onion advisory on November 15. But, for some, it was too late. The Center For Science in the Public Interest faults the FDA for not warning the public sooner, especially after outbreaks in Tennessee, North Carolina and Georgia.

CAROLINE SMITH DEWAAL, CENTER FOR SCIENCE IN THE PUBLIC INTEREST: In fact, in September, there were outbreaks from green onions in three different states. But FDA never alerted consumers that they needed to watch out for green onions. They waited until after the Chi-Chi's outbreak had started.

PILGRIM: The organization has tracked an alarming number of illnesses from fresh produce in recent years, about 4,000 in the year 2000. And many more go unrecorded. The FDA inspects only about 2 percent of fresh produce that crosses the country's borders. And even then, a visual inspection would not turn up the subtle signs of contamination.

Some say the reporting process is too slow when the outbreaks occur. National reaction times have to be speeded up.

TED LABUZA, UNIVERSITY OF MINNESOTA: Right now, a lot of that information doesn't go anywhere, except onto a form and sits in a hospital for a couple of weeks. And we have got to change that.

PILGRIM: Some groups argue that FDA inspection should begin on the farms where the produce is grown, guaranteeing sanitation is up to U.S. standards.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PILGRIM: New bioterrorism laws will help. Starting December 12, foreign companies exporting food to the United States will have to notify the FDA about cross-border shipments. Distributors have to keep better records. But with these volumes, Lou, it is not going to be an easy thing.

DOBBS: It's not going to be easy. Only 2 percent of that produce is inspected. PILGRIM: Is inspected. That's right.

DOBBS: That's incredible. And the FDA today responded to you how?

PILGRIM: We calmed them repeatedly. We told them we wanted to talk about the green onion situation, and no return call.

DOBBS: And this is the same FDA that decided it would not release the information about the Pennsylvania outbreak definitively until Friday afternoon, looking for all the world like a P.R. operation to avoid public scrutiny.

PILGRIM: It was very slow coming out, where these onions came from.

DOBBS: Kitty, thank you very much -- Kitty Pilgrim.

Coming up next here: the battle over Medicare and why the nation's largest senior citizens group supports the controversial reform bill. Bill Novelli, CEO of AARP, joins us to tell us why he believes the $400 million price tag is well worth it. And Senator Tom Daschle will be here to tell us why it isn't.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: Medicare reform is one step closer to being law tonight. Supporters of the bill overcame two last-ditch efforts by Democrats to stop it. But this bill would probably not have made it this far without the support of one very powerful lobbying group.

Louise Schiavone reports from Washington.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

LOUISE SCHIAVONE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The AARP invested $7 million in a one-week advertising blitz on Medicare reform.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, AARP AD)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's why AARP supports this bill as a good first step.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Tell Congress to keep their promise.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCHIAVONE: The nation's most powerful senior lobby says it was money well spent.

ROBERT BIXBY, CONCORD COALITION: One of the things the Democrats were arguing was that the bill would end Medicare as we know it, that it would be the beginning of the destruction of Medicare. It's awfully hard to make that case when you have the powerful AARP saying that it is a good bill and endorsing it.

SCHIAVONE: But angry Democrats, like Senate Minority Leader Tom Daschle, charge, the AARP position is a creature of its lucrative insurance and pharmacy business and motivated by potential revenue increases arising from the Medicare reforms.

The AARP draws $186 million of its $636 million budget from dues; $108 million comes into the organization from royalties paid on health insurance plans sold to its members. That amount alone constitutes 17 percent of total operating revenues. So, lawmakers and seniors are asking the question, who does the AARP represent?

WILLIAM NOVELLI, CEO & EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, AARP: We are not aligned with the insurance industry. We are not aligned with the pharmaceutical industry. We're not aligned with the Republicans or the Democrats. We are an independent organization. Now, this money that we get from our products and services, we put right into our programs.

NORMAN ORNSTEIN, AMERICAN ENTERPRISE INSTITUTE: All that AARP ultimately has is its credibility. And, certainly, through the coming months, the organization is going to be buffeted by accusations that it acted to promote its commercial interests.

SCHIAVONE: Most Americans may know this group from their publications and their advocacy of seniors. What they don't know is that they are also a conduit for insurance and pharmaceutical products.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SCHIAVONE: Lou, despite treaties from liberal Democrats, AARP which is combination of three entities, a nonprofit advocacy group, a private for profit group, and a nonprofit foundation will not pledge to stay out of the drug discount card business or any other marketing opportunity. At the same time, they say they only represent seniors and not the insurance and pharmaceutical industries -- Lou.

DOBBS: Louise, thank you very much.

Earlier I talked with Bill Novelli, the CEO and executive director of AARP. I asked him if taxpayers were getting their money's worth.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BILL NOVELLI, CEO & EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, AARP: That $400 billion is going to buy prescription drugs for seniors over the next 10 years, and what this means is it's going to keep people living in a healthier way, living independently, staying out of nursing homes, hospitals, doctors' offices. It's a good investment.

DOBBS: The Congressional Budget Office estimates somewhere between $1.3 to $2 trillion of the cost of this program, however, in its second 10 years. That kind of explosion or an entitlement program looks as though it could -- it could just literally sink the budget. NOVELLI: We can't let that happen. There's no need to have a train wreck. We've got to work on cost containment of drugs, cost containment of all kinds of health care services.

If you look at this new Medicare legislation, for example, it's got health promotion and disease prevention provisions in it. It's got chronic disease management in it. This is where the big savings opportunities are.

To give you one example, about five percent of Medicare beneficiaries take up about 50 percent of the spending. We need to focus there.

DOBBS: And according to Medicare's own survey, just about five percent look at prescription drug procurement as a big problem. That amounts to something less than two million people in this country. A huge number, but $400 billion over 10 years to accommodate that interest is a huge amount of money, isn't it?

NOVELLI: There are way, way, way more people who are concerned about prescription drugs than just two million people. About a third of seniors don't have any drug coverage. So they're paying top retail dollars for their drugs. And another third of them only have coverage part of the year. So this is going to help people.

And what the Congress did here was they focused the money on low income and also people with high drug costs. So in our view, they allocated the money as well as they could.

DOBBS: Eighty-eight billion dollars estimated in incentives, however, to corporations to maintain their prescription drug programs. That is, without any question, a lot of money.

NOVELLI: Yes, it is. I just got a letter the other day from a major employer who said, "You know, this bill is going to help us to keep retiree coverage." And we've talked to a lot companies who want to keep retiree coverage, but they see these costs going up.

So even though those incentives are pretty expensive, we think it's going to pay off in the long term. Because we don't want retirees to lose their coverage, and we think this is going to help prevent that.

DOBBS: You have set off a firestorm of controversy: for the first time, the AARP sponsoring a Republican initiative of this scale. There have been many programs of this scale, but certain none that was Republican in its initiative.

Quick claims of a conflict of interest on the part of the AARP, 25 percent of your revenues coming from insurance related business.

How do you respond to that?

NOVELLI: Well, first of all, there's no connection whatsoever between our marketing insurance products to our members and our policy decisions. The boards are separate; the staffs are separate. There's a wall between them.

Secondly, it is a Republican-sponsored bill, although there are Democrats in it. And the Senate Democrats, I think, are going to -- it's going to be bipartisan in the Senate.

But we don't belong to the Republicans. We don't belong to the Democrats. We stand up for seniors.

DOBBS: Well, you belonged, as you put it, to the Democrats for a very long time. Most of you -- I think, as you put it in your note, some of your favorite friends are Democrat. Yours being that of the AARP. This is quite a reversal for a lot of your membership to accept.

NOVELLI: It is. It's awkward and a little bit difficult for people to see old friends who are now upset with us. But you know, two months from now, we'll be working hard on Social Security and the other side will be mad at us. When you're non-partisan, you take fire from both sides.

DOBBS: Non-partisan?

NOVELLI: That's right.

DOBBS: That's official?

NOVELLI: Non-partisan, and that's official.

DOBBS: Bill Novelli, thank you very much for being here.

NOVELLI: Thanks a lot.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

DOBBS: Later I'll be joined by one of Medicare's leading -- Medicare bills leading opponents Senate Minority Leader Tom Daschle.

The cost of the Medicare bill the topic of our poll tonight. The question, is the cost of the Medicare prescription drug benefit to high for the American tax payer to assume, yes or no.

Cast your vote at cnn.com/lou. We will have the results later in the show.

"Tonight's Thought" is on the Medicare legislation and the battle surrounding it and partisan politics.

"Let us not seek the Republican answer and the Democratic answer, but the right answer. Let us not seek to fix the blame for the past. Let us accept our own responsibility for the future." Those words from President John F. Kennedy.

Coming up next, Senator Richard Shelby, chairman of the Senate Banking Committee. He says Congress will simply not tolerate any more misconduct in the mutual fund industry. Senator Shelby, will tell us what his committee is doing to clean up the industry next. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: An estimated 90 million people have invested their wealth and trust in the mutual fund industry. Now many fear that trust has been betrayed. In fact, they can take that to the bank. Their money has been placed at risk. My guest says there is real urgency to do something about the mutual fund scandal. From Capitol Hill, we're joined by the chairman of the Senate Banking Committee, Richard Shelby. And, senator, we appreciate you being here this say lot worse than you thought it was when you began your hearings.

SEN. RICHARD SHELBY (R-AL), BANKING CMTE. CHAIRMAN: Absolutely, Lou. And we don't know how deep or how broad at this point. But we know that there say real betrayal of trust here. And as you pointed out it nearly a 100 million Americans that have invested in mutual funds. And I believe that we have got to get to the bottom of the problem, working with the Securities and Exchange Commission and the attorney general of New York and others. We have got to find out what is causing this other than greed, you know, too much greed, betrayal of trust and what we can do about it. I know the SEC is working towards some regulations in that regard. And perhaps other things. And we're going to be working with them. But we're not going to let our guard down. It is too important to the American people.

DOBBS: Guard on the part of our regulators. Guard has been let down.

SHELBY: Absolutely.

DOBBS: And more to me damning in all of this is it is almost two years since Enron, corporate scandals, the Wall Street scandals and now the mutual fund scandals looking all the more heinous to me simply because of the environment that preceded it.

SHELBY: I think you're right. We had the Enron scandals. We had the WorldCom scandal, the MCI WorldCom. We had others and now mutual fund of all things. But I believe the regulator SEC, the SEC, Securities and Exchange Commission, they have not been on top of the mutual fund industry, a $7 trillion industry. Because I think business as usual and betrayal of the trust of the people who buy the mutual funds is too big, it is too important to ignore.

DOBBS: Senator, you're a measured man. At this point the SEC's failure to handle the mutual fund industry. Bill Donaldson with the best of intentions, if it were not for New York's attorney, a Democrat, being focused on the Wall Street scandals, being focused on the mutual fund industry, we wouldn't have regulation of this industry right now, would we?

SHELBY: I think it would be difficult. I have to give credit for the attorney general of New York, Elliott Spitzer. He is a Democrat. But he's on top of things and people are bringing cases to him and he's exposing a lot of things that the SEC should be doing, should have been doing long ago.

DOBBS: You like the SEC under Bill Donaldson to be every bit as aggressive or more so than New York's attorney general?

SHELBY: Absolutely and I have told the chairman and I have a lot of respect for Bill Donaldson, I think he's doing a good job, he hasn't been there that long that, we will furnish you the resources if you go after the people doing wrongdoing, that are trying to destroy the mutual fund industry.

DOBBS: What are the areas where Bill Donaldson, the SEC chairman, says he doesn't want to get involved that the point is the in the regulation and oversight of the New York Stock Exchange, wants to leave the self-regulatory power with the New York Stock Exchange. Do you think that's acceptable?

SHELBY: I'm not sure that's a good idea. We keep -- I don't want to over-regulate anybody. But the accounting profession certainly couldn't regulate themselves. And I don't see how the New York Stock Exchange in view of what has been happening can regulate themselves. Without some changes in the board and how it is made up and so forth. We had a hearing last week with John Reed and the SEC chairman, Donaldson. We're going to look at it very closely. I think we have to be careful here. The New York Stock Exchange is important as the lead group in the capital markets. But we should not just look the other way.

DOBBS: Now -- I couldn't agree with you more personally, senator. Thank you very much for being with us. Senator Richard Shelby. Always good to talk with you.

SHELBY: Thank you.

DOBBS: An update on our continuing report on "Exporting America," the shipment of American jobs and capital overseas. Hispanic immigrants will send back nearly $30 billion this year back to their home of origin that is far more than the $17 billion in foreign aid the United States sends over the entire world. This information comes from the results of a new study by the PEW Center and the InterAmerican development bank that report says America is no longer simply in a escape out. We are now in a "fuel pump for foreign economies."

Dell Computer, one of the first large American firms to outsource its operations to India and other low wage companies. As a result, when you call Dell's technical support time you're often rerouted to the Dell call center in India. Customers have been complaining about the accents and the scripted responses of Dell's Indian workers. Now Dell says it is returning some of those jobs to the United States. The vice president of Dell services division said of outsourcing sometimes we move a little too far too fast. Dell is not saying how many of those new jobs will come back to its tech support centers in Twin Falls, Idaho and Nashville, Tennessee.

"Tonight's Quote" from a Thanksgiving ceremony at the White House. "It reminds us of the many things for which we can all be thankful for in this country on this holiday. It speaks well for America that one of our most important holidays is set aside for sharing and appreciating our blessings. This year, as in other times in history, we can be special grateful for the courage and the faithfulness of those who defend us." President Bush.

Coming up next, Senate minority leader, Tom Daschle. He's been an outspoken critic of the Medicare reform bill. He'll join us to tell us why he says it is hard to imagine a plan less faithful to what seniors in this country have been promised and deserve. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: On Wall Street, stocks opened the week with a rally. Christine Romans is here with the market for us.

CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNNfn CORRESPONDENT: Do you know it has been since 1966 that the market has gone eight months without a 5 percent pullback?

DOBBS: Yes, I do.

ROMANS: That's because, (UNINTELLIGIBLE) that today. But interesting how long this market moved sideways or at least higher. Today, the dollar rose, oil fell, stocks rallied and investors got bullish on the economy. Many expect tomorrow's GDP report to show growth as high as 8 percent. And a group of economists forecast strong growth into next year. Delta Airlines shares rallied 7 percent today on news its CEO Leo Mullin is retiring in the midst of crucial contract talks with its pilots. Mullin gets a retirement package of $16 million. He earns $20 million in 2001 and 2002. A last year he took a pay cut of $9.1 million in response to criticism that Delta was protecting its executives' pension plans even as it was demanding concessions from its unions. And those concessions, Lou are deep. Delta wants pilot pay cuts up to 22 percent and laid off 16,000 workers since September 11th, and this company is still losing money. Another $164 million in the third quarter. And this quarter is expected to be even worse. Delta's pilots union meets with Delta executives tomorrow. But analysts say it is difficult for this company to argue for deep concessions when its top management has been paid so well. Paid so well so that they could steer them through a very turbulent time in the industry, but Leo Mullin leaves with some unfinished business.

DOBBS: How much money total over the last few years?

ROMANS: Some $25 million, $26 million not counting retirement.

DOBBS: I don't know why people keep talking about egregious CEO pay. It just seems to right for a company on the verge of bankruptcy, who absolutely messed up all of their union contracts, amazing. All right. Thanks, Christine Romans.

Tonight, as we have been reporting, the Senate is, it appears to be ready to approve the landmark Medicare reform legislation. It would be, if approved, the most far reaching overhaul of the federal health care plan and its 38-year history.

One of the bill's most outspoken opponents, of course, is the Senate minority leader, Tom Daschle who joins me now from capitol hill. Senator good to have you here.

SEN. TOM DASCHLE (D-SD), SENATE MINORITY LEADER: Thank you, Lou.

DOBBS: It appears the legislation is going to become law by our last check and on the last skew what is the latest you for a final vote on this.

DASCHLE: The final vote will occur tonight or tomorrow morning. We haven't set a time yet. The debate goes on. The critical votes were this afternoon and we'll see what happens.

DOBBS: You have said that this plan is just simply the wrong approach in every respect. $400 billion is -- are you suggesting that's not enough money or just poorly spent here?

DASCHLE: Well, a combination of both, Lou. It is primarily poorly spent. We could be doing a lot more with the money than providing big handouts to HMOs and the drug companies and to a lot of special interests. A big chunk of this money is not going to go to senior citizens, it's going to be bailouts to big business.

DOBBS: That bailout, as you call it, you're referring to I suppose the modest $88 billion that will incentivize companies to maintain their prescription drug plans?

DASCHLE: Well, it's going to be at least $16 billion to HMOs to set up competing plans with Medicare to provide the kind of drug coverage that we're talking about here. It's a $6 billion plan primarily to those who are healthy to set up health security or health savings accounts. So there are a series of huge, big-ticket items, very expensive big-ticket items that were used in part to build the coalition necessary to pass this bill.

DOBBS: This bill must have a lot of partners, because $400 billion, with projections that it could reach $1.3 to $2 trillion in the second 10 years of operation, is mind-boggling. How can such a piece of legislation with that kind of projected growth rate move ahead? And obviously, because (UNINTELLIGIBLE).

DASCHLE: Well, one of the concerns we have, and it was really the reason I made the point of order this afternoon, was that they virtually have taken out all of the cost control mechanisms here. So I don't know where those predictions came from, but you are going to see a dramatic increase in the cost of drugs, in part because there is so little cost containment left in the bill itself.

That means seniors are going to pay more. It means the whole country is going to pay more, including the government, and that's wrong, and it is one of the reasons I'm opposing this legislation.

DOBBS: $1.3 trillion to $2 trillion, that was the projection from the Congressional Budget Office earlier. And it is, as you suggested, without cost controls, like most projections, it might as well be styled a guess. We're in an era of strong guesses that become projections, I guess, Senator. Let's talk about the -- if we may, as well, your strategy going forward. Senator Kennedy today said the Republicans had effectively hijacked the prescription drug, or were in the throes of doing so, the prescription drug issue, while at the same time, in his judgment, messing up a tried and true program that is Medicare. He said it is going to be a major campaign issue. Is it going to be a major campaign issue in the presidential election?

DASCHLE: I suspect it will. Not only the presidential election, but all the congressional elections around the country. I'm still confident that when the American people, especially senior citizens, find out just what this bill entails, and how they're going to be affected, they're going to be angry. They're going to be frustrated, they're going to be writing to Congress saying we want you to change it.

DOBBS: And you have focused as well concerned about middle income senior Americans and Medicare. What more could have been done for them in your judgment?

DASCHLE: Well, one of the biggest group of seniors that I'm most concerned about who fit in that middle income group are the retirees. They estimate two to three million retirees are going to lose their private drug coverage when this legislation passes. So that's one group in particular that concerns me a great deal.

They're going to be left with nothing. And until we fix it, and we could have fixed it, I'm very concerned about that, and many other aspects of this bill that are going to be unaddressed as we pass it some time in the next 24 hours.

DOBBS: Senator Tom Daschle, we thank you very much for being with us here.

DASCHLE: My pleasure. Thank you, Lou.

DOBBS: Coming up next, we'll share some of your thoughts, including one suggestion on how to solve the problems facing the Medicare system. It's an idea that might not be very popular, however, in our nation's capital. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: Now your thoughts. From Phoenix, Arizona: "Lou, we can solve Medicare and Social Security instantly if we took our fat cat federal legislators off their wonderful self-granted medical and retirement programs, which we pay for, and put them on Medicare and Social Security. I'm positive the savings would be tens of millions of dollars annually." That from Bob Beck.

From Boston, Massachusetts: "You have been so biased about immigrants on your show. I want to remind you once again that we are a nation of immigrants from all over the world. The founders of this beloved land were immigrants. Not to forget our ancestors, we're all pure immigrants." That from Abdi Karim. From Spanaway, Washington: "My husband generally hates conservatives, but he loves Lou Dobbs. We both have great respect for his opinions and the current programming on illegal immigrants and the exporting of American jobs." That from Pam Ullfers.

And from Portland, Oregon: "I had been alarmed recently at your commentary inciting xenophobia amongst the masses. There is a significant anti-immigrant rhetoric coming from your show. Note, Mr. Dobbs, you are a descendent of immigrants as well. Stop the subtle divisiveness to win temporary ratings." That from Cyril Neicherill.

Mr. Neicherill, you are not the first person to write in to suggest it is xenophobic to talk about controlling illegal immigration, and you're not the first to suggest that anti-illegal immigration is the same as anti-immigration. I assure you they are not the same.

And as to your comment about winning temporary rating, let me assure you that if we were interested in winning ratings, our focus on this broadcast would not be on international trade policy, national immigration policy, illegal aliens, education, explosive population growth, the conservation of our natural resources. This may shock you, but these are not typical topics that have typically spiked television ratings. In fact, you may have noticed that this broadcast is free of those subjects that typically do spike ratings, such as stories about M. Jackson, K. Bryant, S. Peterson and P. Hilton.

We appreciate your thoughts. E-mail us anytime at loudobbs@cnn.com. Please include your name and home town.

Let's turn to our poll. Tonight, the results. The question is, is the cost of a Medicare prescription drug benefit too high for the American taxpayer to assume? Sixty-six percent of you said yes, 34 percent said no.

And finally tonight, if you happen to be at the bottom of the world yesterday evening, you were treated to a rare event, a total eclipse of the sun. Scientists and a few lucky others braved subfreezing temperatures as the sun disappeared over Antarctica. Partial eclipses also occurred over parts of Australia and southern New Zealand, South America. The last total eclipse, solar eclipse in Antarctica, was just over a century ago.

That's our show for tonight. We thank you for being with us. For all of us here, good night from New York. "ANDERSON COOPER 360" is coming up next.

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Outbreak Revealed>


Aired November 24, 2003 - 18:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR: Tonight, the biggest hepatitis outbreak in this country's history. The FDA finally admits it knows who is to blame. Is our imported food safe and are food inspectors doing their job? Kitty Pilgrim reports in "Broken Borders."
President Bush on the verge of a historic victory on Medicare. I'll be joined by one of the bill's most outspoken opponents, Senate Minority Leader Tom Daschle, and one of the bill's most prominent supporters, Bill Novelli, chief executive of the AARP.

And continuing scandal in the $7 trillion mutual fund industry. Senator Richard Shelby, chairman of the Senate Banking Committee, joins us to tell us what Congress and regulators must do to earn back the trust of investors.

ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT for Monday, November 24. Here now, Lou Dobbs.

DOBBS: Good evening.

Tonight, the Senate is on the verge of approving the most extensive and most expensive overhaul of Medicare in its 38-year history. The bill will give a prescription drug benefit to some 40 million older and disabled Americans. It will also introduce private competition in Medicare for the first time. But these reforms come at a high price. They will cost at least $400 billion over 10 years. Critics say the cost will be far higher because the bill contains no spending limits.

Jonathan Karl reports from Capitol Hill -- Jonathan.

JONATHAN KARL, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Lou, the president is on the verge of a major legislative victory here on the Medicare prescription drug bill that will enable him to sign that bill into law and giving him a major issue to campaign on in next year's election.

But the victory will come only after Republicans up here were able to knock down two Democratic efforts to block passage of this bill.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. BILL FRIST (R-TN), MAJORITY LEADER: It will be decided today. It is a historic opportunity. I encourage all of our colleagues on both sides of the aisle to put politics aside, to put partisanship aside, to put procedural tricks aside. We're talking about the health care security of seniors, both now and in the future.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KARL: So, with some Democratic support, Republicans were able to prevail, knocking down first a Democratic filibuster and then a technical vote by Democrats that also required 60 votes. They got only 61. So it was very close, Lou.

Now, after all this, there is still a lot of talking to be done. Democrats can talk for several more hours, perhaps bringing this not to a vote until tomorrow. And Democrats are vowing that, even after a final vote on this, they will continue to fight this and bring this issue into the election.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. EDWARD KENNEDY (D), MASSACHUSETTS: We are strongly committed to make sure that our Republican friends are not going to hijack the prescription drug bill, when they are really attempting to undermine the Medicare system. We're going continue to fight this tonight. We'll fight it tomorrow. We're going to fight it in every opportunity that is available to us in the days and the weeks ahead. And we're going to fight it to next year. And we're going fight it in the congressional elections and we're going to fight it in the presidential elections as well.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KARL: Now, when the final vote is taken and we get the final roll call, you will see several prominent conservative Republicans voting against this bill, for the very reason you alluded to in the beginning of this -- of your show, Lou. And that is, they believe that this bill will actually cost more than $400 billion and this will be a massive burden on a Medicare system that is already going broke.

But, at the end of the day, it looks like there will be an overwhelming majority that will approve this bill and the president will be able to sign it into law.

DOBBS: Jonathan, did Senator Kennedy perhaps suggest something about the prescription drug benefit that he didn't intend, that is, allowing the Republicans to hijack the issue and therefore the credit with voters?

KARL: Well, that is something that clearly Democrats have been worried about, that they -- that Republicans will now take this issue and be able to campaign on it. This has been, from the beginning, a Democratic issue. Senator Kennedy sponsored a bill back in the 1970s to get prescription drug coverage. And now it is finally going to get done by the Republicans.

But what he was talking about is that they have taken this bill and they will have the prescription drug benefit. What's he concerned is the changes the bill will make to Medicare itself. He says the benefit is one thing. But, in his view, the changes that the bill make to Medicare are simply not worth the cost. DOBBS: Jonathan Karl, reporting from Capitol Hill, thank you.

President Bush today took a break from the Medicare debate. He signed a $400 billion defense spending bill into law. Later, the president traveled to Colorado, where he met privately with the families of soldiers who have been killed on active duty.

White House correspondent Dana Bash is traveling with the president and reports now from Fort Carson, Colorado -- Dana.

DANA BASH, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Lou, today's visit to Fort Carson was designed as a good old-fashioned morale-booster from the commander in chief.

And President Bush has admitted himself that it has been a bad and deadly month for the United States in Iraq. So, standing in a sea of troops applauding him was certainly welcome imagery for this White House.

Now, Fort Carson is heavily involved in Iraq; 11,000 troops are currently deployed there from this base and more are on the way. So, the president wanted to thank them, and he did, and explain once again why they are there and why they have to stay.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The work we are in is not easy. Yet, it is essential. The failure of democracy in Iraq would provide new bases for the terrorist network and embolden terrorists and their allies around the world. The failure of democracy in those countries would convince terrorists that America backs down under attack.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BASH: Now, Fort Carson has also been a place that has suffered a great deal of loss in Iraq. About 30 soldiers who have trained and are based here at Fort Carson have died during the war in Iraq.

And the president just now left a meeting, a private meeting, with family members of those who died. He met with about 100 people. That particular meeting was supposed to last 45 minutes. It lasted almost two hours. And there has been some criticism from Democrats and even some family members of those killed in Iraq that the president is not as aggressive in being public in his thanks and his appreciation and even acknowledging the deaths in Iraq.

But the White House says, this is simply a sense of style -- a case of style -- that the president prefers to meet privately with families when he goes to military bases, just as he did today, and that he also prefers to send letters and, essentially, express his condolences in private. His critics say that it is a matter of politics. The White House, as you can imagine, Lou, begs to differ -- Lou.

DOBBS: And, Dana, I think it is worth pointing out, is it not, that the president is meeting -- has been meeting privately with the families of those killed in action since the beginning of the war against Saddam Hussein.

BASH: That's right. He's gone to Fort Bragg, Camp Lejeune and other bases. And at all of those stops, nearly all those stops, he has had private meetings. The cameras have not been allowed in. But he has met privately with family members of those who died and also soldiers who have been injured -- Lou.

DOBBS: Dana Bash, thank you very much.

Less than a week after the president visited London, French President Jacques Chirac went to the British capital to meet with British Prime Minister Tony Blair. Their meeting was designed to bridge differences over Iraq and European defense.

But the French president again criticized U.S. and British policy in Iraq. Chirac said sovereignty should be passed to Iraqis more quickly than the coalition plans to. President Chirac and his close ally, Germany, also disagree about Iraq. German Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder now says he's prepared to consider forgiving at least part of Iraq's $5 billion debt to Germany. France so far has refused to say whether it will forgive any of Iraq's debt.

In Iraq today, insurgents wounded an American soldier in a bomb attack in the northern city of Mosul. That attack came one day after terrorists killed two American soldiers in the city. The violence is taking place in an area the coalition has considered to be before relatively secure, compared to Baghdad and so the called Sunni Triangle.

Walt Rodgers reports from Baghdad -- Walt.

WALTER RODGERS, CNN SR. INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Hello, Lou.

The murder of those two U.S. soldiers on Sunday was chilling, if not barbaric. According to Army now, a mob descended on their car. Both soldiers were shot through the head. And their bodies were dragged from the car, dragged into the street, the dead bodies pummeled. The mob descended on the dead bodies and stripped the dead American soldiers of their rings, their watches, their wallets, anything of a personal nature.

Initially, eyewitness reports suggested that the soldiers throats had been slit as well. The Army says that is not the case. All of this other information, however, is coming from what are believed to be credible eyewitnesses. Why Mosul, a city in northern Iraq, which indeed had been relatively quiet until recent weeks? I was with the 101st Airborne throughout late August, early September.

And colonels at that time were privately predicting to me that there would be a shift in the center of action to Mosul. They could see the resistance building in Mosul. Perhaps there was not much they could do about it. One thing to remember, however, this insurgency is no longer limited to the Sunni Triangle. That is Tikrit, Fallujah and the Baghdad area. It is openly hot and active in Mosul. And don't forget the Italians who were killed in Nasiriyah, again, far out of that so-called Sunni Triangle -- Lou.

DOBBS: Walt, what was the reaction amongst the American forces there in Mosul? What is the plan of the commanders there?

RODGERS: I can't answer that because I'm in Baghdad. I don't know.

But I can tell you this, that you could look on the face of General Mark Kimmitt yesterday at the briefing when he was asked about the terms -- or about the conditions of the soldiers' death. He couldn't comment, wouldn't comment on the time. But you could see the rage on General Kimmitt's face. And I think you can transpose that rage to every member of the 101st Airborne up in the Mosul area -- Lou.

DOBBS: Now, Walt, the Iraqi Governing Council today shut down the offices of the Arab television network in Baghdad, saying that it promoted violence. The reasoning behind that? Is there some sort of national Iraqi communication broadcasting facility there now?

RODGERS: Well, what has happened is that Al-Arabiya, the Iraqi cable network, was shut down because the American-appointed governing council objected to Al-Arabiya broadcasting the full audiotape last week of Saddam Hussein.

Now, they called that incitement. And, by the way, the American- appointed governing council also threatened CNN and BBC with punitive action. Our networks didn't cover -- carry the whole thing. But, again, let me tell you why this was done. It is real simple. The governing council heard the voice of Saddam Hussein. People here believe in their head Saddam will never come back.

But, in their hearts, Saddam's voice still strikes terror into the hearts of the Iraqi people and the governing council. And until he's dead, it is going to be a big problem -- Lou.

DOBBS: Is there, though, Walt, a national Iraqi broadcast facility there, one operation for all Iraqis?

RODGERS: Not yet. And Al-Arabiya is not based here in Baghdad. It is one of those Pan-Arab broadcast stations.

So what they really did was just shut down the operations here, confiscated their satellite transmission equipment and so forth. They didn't shut down Al-Arabiya throughout the rest of the Gulf -- Lou.

DOBBS: OK, Walt, thank you very much. Walt Rodgers, reporting from Baghdad, thank you.

Coming up next, the Democratic presidential candidates square off in Iowa -- one of the issues, of course, Medicare. And they talked about tax cuts and a lot more. Our senior political correspondent, Candy Crowley, will report for us from Des Moines.

And "The Throwaway Society." We begin tonight a series of special reports on a mounting waste problem in this country. Peter Viles will report.

And Senate Banking Committee Chairman Richard Shelby of Alabama joins us to talk about his commitment to clean up the now scandal- ridden mutual fund industry and to protect the interests of nearly 100 million investors.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: Democratic front-runner Howard Dean is now the front- runner in the latest poll in the home state of Senator John Kerry, leading, in fact, by 9 percentage points over Kerry.

Well, Dean today faced off with five other Democratic candidates in a debate in Iowa. Senators Kerry and Edwards took part in the debate by satellite from Washington, where they were debating the Medicare prescription benefit bill, that bill, plus the war in Iraq, gay marriage, among the topics of the debate.

Candy Crowley is in Des Moines and has report for us -- Candy.

CANDY CROWLEY, CNN SR. POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Lou, the Iowa poll numbers show right now that Richard Gephardt is in the lead by a slight bit. So you might be able to put two and two together and know that most of the steam in this debate, the fifth sponsored debate of the Democratic National Committee, most of the steam came between Howard Dean and Richard Gephardt.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. RICHARD GEPHARDT (D-MO), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We didn't cut the most vulnerable, as he did in Vermont. He cut Medicaid. He cut the prescription drug program. He tried to eliminate it three times in the mid-'90s that he had in the state of Vermont. He cut funding for the blind and the disabled.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CROWLEY: Now, Dean says that that is a big exaggeration.

But the point here was that both Richard Gephardt and John Kerry are trying to make some inroads into those high poll numbers that Dean has. And, at some times, it looked like kind of the one-two punch, with the first punch coming from Gephardt and the second coming from Kerry.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HOWARD DEAN (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: DEAN: Well, what I intend to do in Medicare is to increase reimbursements for states like Iowa and Vermont, which are 50th and 49th respectively.

SEN. JOHN KERRY (D-MA), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Are you going to slow the rate of growth, Governor, yes or no?

DEAN: We're going to do what we have to do to make sure that Medicare lasts... KERRY: Are you going to slow the rate of growth, Governor, because that's a cut?

DEAN: Well, I'd like to slow the rate of growth of this debate, if I could..

(LAUGHTER)

DEAN: But we're going to make sure that Medicare works.

KERRY: Well, I'm sure you'd like to avoid it altogether, but...

TOM BROKAW, MODERATOR: Let me ask you, Senator Kerry...

DEAN: Medicare is off the table. We are not going to cut Medicare in order to balance the budget.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CROWLEY: So the one thing we know is that everyone on the stage and, indeed, those back in Washington all said that they would vote against this Medicare bill. On just about everything else, they had shades of difference and then some big, wide gaps -- Lou.

DOBBS: Candy, thank you very much -- Candy Crowley.

Coming up next here, "The Throwaway Society," our series of special reports this week on a wasteful nation. Tonight, we focus on the multibillion dollar business of trash and its cost to the country. Peter Viles reports.

And "Broken Borders" -- tonight, disease, viruses crossing our porous borders in the fruits and vegetables we eat. What is the FDA doing? Kitty Pilgrim reports.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: Ours is a society so dedicated to convenience that conservation now is seen, in many cases, as an almost outdated notion. From throwaway clothes and computers to paper packaging, we generate so much trash that many cities and towns in this country have nowhere to put it.

Peter Viles reports now on our "Throwaway Society."

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

PETER VILES, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): How's this for a national motto: When in doubt, throw it out? Packaging, paper, wasted food, cardboard boxes, C.D.s and DVDs, our national trash heap runneth over.

PETER DEJANA, OWNER, DEJANA INDUSTRIES INC.: We find it easiest, all of us, to just throw away.

VILES: Peter DeJana is in the trash hauling business, and business is good.

DEJANA: Over the last 20 years, and particularly over the last 10, 15 years, we have seen a dramatic increase in the amount of garbage that's being generated in our area.

VILES: 1960, the average American threw out 2.7 pounds of garbage per day. That amount rose steadily, peaking at 4.7 pounds a day in 1999, before dropping slightly as the economy weakened.

Americans generate 229 million tons of household trash every year. And it is everywhere. There are 6,000 closed landfills in the United States, one next door to this Long Island golf course. Paper is a major problem. It is a third of household garbage. Americans now get so much junk mail that the post office is recommending that we buy bigger mailboxes.

Nobody knows trash like New Yorkers. And their attitude is typical. They generate 12,000 tons of it every day. And they have every pound hauled outside the city to be buried or burned somewhere else.

JOHN DOHERTY, NEW YORK CITY SANITATION COMMISSIONER: Most of the trash goes to Pennsylvania. And that's one of the problems, because Pennsylvania is not allowing any new transfers -- waste disposal facilities to open, no new landfills. And they're not allowing a new capacity at any of the landfills.

VILES: One way to manage trash is to make it expensive. Thousands of cities have gone to a fee system known as pay as you throw.

MATT HALE, OFFICE OF SOLID WASTE, EPA: We have got, right now, almost 10,000 communities that have curbside recycling systems. And probably about half that number have some kind of pay-as-you-throw system.

VILES: But one of the biggest trends in trash is not community- based.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

VILES: That trend is regionalization, fewer landfills, but they are growing larger in size, which means that most cities and towns are solving their trash problem by shipping their trash to someone else -- Lou.

DOBBS: When the real answer would be to keep it in state next to the community that is creating it.

VILES: This has become a big interstate trade issue. You have a lot of states that are importers of trash, Pennsylvania, Virginia, Ohio. It's a big issue in all those states.

DOBBS: Pete, thanks -- Peter Viles.

Well, turning now to our presidential report, "Broken Borders," the biggest outbreak of hepatitis A in this country has now been traced to green onions imported from Mexico. The Food and Drug Administration said Friday the scallions from Mexico were responsible for sickening hundreds of people in Pennsylvania. Importing disease into this country is the subject of our report tonight.

Kitty Pilgrim has it.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KITTY PILGRIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Fruits and vegetables, five a day are recommended for your health, but not if they are contaminated; 20 percent of our fresh fruits and vegetables are imported, but very little inspected.

Green onions sickened 605 people and three died after they ate them at a Mexican food restaurant, Chi-Chi's, in western Pennsylvania, the largest single outbreak of hepatitis A in the country. The FDA issued a green onion advisory on November 15. But, for some, it was too late. The Center For Science in the Public Interest faults the FDA for not warning the public sooner, especially after outbreaks in Tennessee, North Carolina and Georgia.

CAROLINE SMITH DEWAAL, CENTER FOR SCIENCE IN THE PUBLIC INTEREST: In fact, in September, there were outbreaks from green onions in three different states. But FDA never alerted consumers that they needed to watch out for green onions. They waited until after the Chi-Chi's outbreak had started.

PILGRIM: The organization has tracked an alarming number of illnesses from fresh produce in recent years, about 4,000 in the year 2000. And many more go unrecorded. The FDA inspects only about 2 percent of fresh produce that crosses the country's borders. And even then, a visual inspection would not turn up the subtle signs of contamination.

Some say the reporting process is too slow when the outbreaks occur. National reaction times have to be speeded up.

TED LABUZA, UNIVERSITY OF MINNESOTA: Right now, a lot of that information doesn't go anywhere, except onto a form and sits in a hospital for a couple of weeks. And we have got to change that.

PILGRIM: Some groups argue that FDA inspection should begin on the farms where the produce is grown, guaranteeing sanitation is up to U.S. standards.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PILGRIM: New bioterrorism laws will help. Starting December 12, foreign companies exporting food to the United States will have to notify the FDA about cross-border shipments. Distributors have to keep better records. But with these volumes, Lou, it is not going to be an easy thing.

DOBBS: It's not going to be easy. Only 2 percent of that produce is inspected. PILGRIM: Is inspected. That's right.

DOBBS: That's incredible. And the FDA today responded to you how?

PILGRIM: We calmed them repeatedly. We told them we wanted to talk about the green onion situation, and no return call.

DOBBS: And this is the same FDA that decided it would not release the information about the Pennsylvania outbreak definitively until Friday afternoon, looking for all the world like a P.R. operation to avoid public scrutiny.

PILGRIM: It was very slow coming out, where these onions came from.

DOBBS: Kitty, thank you very much -- Kitty Pilgrim.

Coming up next here: the battle over Medicare and why the nation's largest senior citizens group supports the controversial reform bill. Bill Novelli, CEO of AARP, joins us to tell us why he believes the $400 million price tag is well worth it. And Senator Tom Daschle will be here to tell us why it isn't.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: Medicare reform is one step closer to being law tonight. Supporters of the bill overcame two last-ditch efforts by Democrats to stop it. But this bill would probably not have made it this far without the support of one very powerful lobbying group.

Louise Schiavone reports from Washington.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

LOUISE SCHIAVONE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The AARP invested $7 million in a one-week advertising blitz on Medicare reform.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, AARP AD)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's why AARP supports this bill as a good first step.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Tell Congress to keep their promise.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCHIAVONE: The nation's most powerful senior lobby says it was money well spent.

ROBERT BIXBY, CONCORD COALITION: One of the things the Democrats were arguing was that the bill would end Medicare as we know it, that it would be the beginning of the destruction of Medicare. It's awfully hard to make that case when you have the powerful AARP saying that it is a good bill and endorsing it.

SCHIAVONE: But angry Democrats, like Senate Minority Leader Tom Daschle, charge, the AARP position is a creature of its lucrative insurance and pharmacy business and motivated by potential revenue increases arising from the Medicare reforms.

The AARP draws $186 million of its $636 million budget from dues; $108 million comes into the organization from royalties paid on health insurance plans sold to its members. That amount alone constitutes 17 percent of total operating revenues. So, lawmakers and seniors are asking the question, who does the AARP represent?

WILLIAM NOVELLI, CEO & EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, AARP: We are not aligned with the insurance industry. We are not aligned with the pharmaceutical industry. We're not aligned with the Republicans or the Democrats. We are an independent organization. Now, this money that we get from our products and services, we put right into our programs.

NORMAN ORNSTEIN, AMERICAN ENTERPRISE INSTITUTE: All that AARP ultimately has is its credibility. And, certainly, through the coming months, the organization is going to be buffeted by accusations that it acted to promote its commercial interests.

SCHIAVONE: Most Americans may know this group from their publications and their advocacy of seniors. What they don't know is that they are also a conduit for insurance and pharmaceutical products.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SCHIAVONE: Lou, despite treaties from liberal Democrats, AARP which is combination of three entities, a nonprofit advocacy group, a private for profit group, and a nonprofit foundation will not pledge to stay out of the drug discount card business or any other marketing opportunity. At the same time, they say they only represent seniors and not the insurance and pharmaceutical industries -- Lou.

DOBBS: Louise, thank you very much.

Earlier I talked with Bill Novelli, the CEO and executive director of AARP. I asked him if taxpayers were getting their money's worth.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BILL NOVELLI, CEO & EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, AARP: That $400 billion is going to buy prescription drugs for seniors over the next 10 years, and what this means is it's going to keep people living in a healthier way, living independently, staying out of nursing homes, hospitals, doctors' offices. It's a good investment.

DOBBS: The Congressional Budget Office estimates somewhere between $1.3 to $2 trillion of the cost of this program, however, in its second 10 years. That kind of explosion or an entitlement program looks as though it could -- it could just literally sink the budget. NOVELLI: We can't let that happen. There's no need to have a train wreck. We've got to work on cost containment of drugs, cost containment of all kinds of health care services.

If you look at this new Medicare legislation, for example, it's got health promotion and disease prevention provisions in it. It's got chronic disease management in it. This is where the big savings opportunities are.

To give you one example, about five percent of Medicare beneficiaries take up about 50 percent of the spending. We need to focus there.

DOBBS: And according to Medicare's own survey, just about five percent look at prescription drug procurement as a big problem. That amounts to something less than two million people in this country. A huge number, but $400 billion over 10 years to accommodate that interest is a huge amount of money, isn't it?

NOVELLI: There are way, way, way more people who are concerned about prescription drugs than just two million people. About a third of seniors don't have any drug coverage. So they're paying top retail dollars for their drugs. And another third of them only have coverage part of the year. So this is going to help people.

And what the Congress did here was they focused the money on low income and also people with high drug costs. So in our view, they allocated the money as well as they could.

DOBBS: Eighty-eight billion dollars estimated in incentives, however, to corporations to maintain their prescription drug programs. That is, without any question, a lot of money.

NOVELLI: Yes, it is. I just got a letter the other day from a major employer who said, "You know, this bill is going to help us to keep retiree coverage." And we've talked to a lot companies who want to keep retiree coverage, but they see these costs going up.

So even though those incentives are pretty expensive, we think it's going to pay off in the long term. Because we don't want retirees to lose their coverage, and we think this is going to help prevent that.

DOBBS: You have set off a firestorm of controversy: for the first time, the AARP sponsoring a Republican initiative of this scale. There have been many programs of this scale, but certain none that was Republican in its initiative.

Quick claims of a conflict of interest on the part of the AARP, 25 percent of your revenues coming from insurance related business.

How do you respond to that?

NOVELLI: Well, first of all, there's no connection whatsoever between our marketing insurance products to our members and our policy decisions. The boards are separate; the staffs are separate. There's a wall between them.

Secondly, it is a Republican-sponsored bill, although there are Democrats in it. And the Senate Democrats, I think, are going to -- it's going to be bipartisan in the Senate.

But we don't belong to the Republicans. We don't belong to the Democrats. We stand up for seniors.

DOBBS: Well, you belonged, as you put it, to the Democrats for a very long time. Most of you -- I think, as you put it in your note, some of your favorite friends are Democrat. Yours being that of the AARP. This is quite a reversal for a lot of your membership to accept.

NOVELLI: It is. It's awkward and a little bit difficult for people to see old friends who are now upset with us. But you know, two months from now, we'll be working hard on Social Security and the other side will be mad at us. When you're non-partisan, you take fire from both sides.

DOBBS: Non-partisan?

NOVELLI: That's right.

DOBBS: That's official?

NOVELLI: Non-partisan, and that's official.

DOBBS: Bill Novelli, thank you very much for being here.

NOVELLI: Thanks a lot.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

DOBBS: Later I'll be joined by one of Medicare's leading -- Medicare bills leading opponents Senate Minority Leader Tom Daschle.

The cost of the Medicare bill the topic of our poll tonight. The question, is the cost of the Medicare prescription drug benefit to high for the American tax payer to assume, yes or no.

Cast your vote at cnn.com/lou. We will have the results later in the show.

"Tonight's Thought" is on the Medicare legislation and the battle surrounding it and partisan politics.

"Let us not seek the Republican answer and the Democratic answer, but the right answer. Let us not seek to fix the blame for the past. Let us accept our own responsibility for the future." Those words from President John F. Kennedy.

Coming up next, Senator Richard Shelby, chairman of the Senate Banking Committee. He says Congress will simply not tolerate any more misconduct in the mutual fund industry. Senator Shelby, will tell us what his committee is doing to clean up the industry next. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: An estimated 90 million people have invested their wealth and trust in the mutual fund industry. Now many fear that trust has been betrayed. In fact, they can take that to the bank. Their money has been placed at risk. My guest says there is real urgency to do something about the mutual fund scandal. From Capitol Hill, we're joined by the chairman of the Senate Banking Committee, Richard Shelby. And, senator, we appreciate you being here this say lot worse than you thought it was when you began your hearings.

SEN. RICHARD SHELBY (R-AL), BANKING CMTE. CHAIRMAN: Absolutely, Lou. And we don't know how deep or how broad at this point. But we know that there say real betrayal of trust here. And as you pointed out it nearly a 100 million Americans that have invested in mutual funds. And I believe that we have got to get to the bottom of the problem, working with the Securities and Exchange Commission and the attorney general of New York and others. We have got to find out what is causing this other than greed, you know, too much greed, betrayal of trust and what we can do about it. I know the SEC is working towards some regulations in that regard. And perhaps other things. And we're going to be working with them. But we're not going to let our guard down. It is too important to the American people.

DOBBS: Guard on the part of our regulators. Guard has been let down.

SHELBY: Absolutely.

DOBBS: And more to me damning in all of this is it is almost two years since Enron, corporate scandals, the Wall Street scandals and now the mutual fund scandals looking all the more heinous to me simply because of the environment that preceded it.

SHELBY: I think you're right. We had the Enron scandals. We had the WorldCom scandal, the MCI WorldCom. We had others and now mutual fund of all things. But I believe the regulator SEC, the SEC, Securities and Exchange Commission, they have not been on top of the mutual fund industry, a $7 trillion industry. Because I think business as usual and betrayal of the trust of the people who buy the mutual funds is too big, it is too important to ignore.

DOBBS: Senator, you're a measured man. At this point the SEC's failure to handle the mutual fund industry. Bill Donaldson with the best of intentions, if it were not for New York's attorney, a Democrat, being focused on the Wall Street scandals, being focused on the mutual fund industry, we wouldn't have regulation of this industry right now, would we?

SHELBY: I think it would be difficult. I have to give credit for the attorney general of New York, Elliott Spitzer. He is a Democrat. But he's on top of things and people are bringing cases to him and he's exposing a lot of things that the SEC should be doing, should have been doing long ago.

DOBBS: You like the SEC under Bill Donaldson to be every bit as aggressive or more so than New York's attorney general?

SHELBY: Absolutely and I have told the chairman and I have a lot of respect for Bill Donaldson, I think he's doing a good job, he hasn't been there that long that, we will furnish you the resources if you go after the people doing wrongdoing, that are trying to destroy the mutual fund industry.

DOBBS: What are the areas where Bill Donaldson, the SEC chairman, says he doesn't want to get involved that the point is the in the regulation and oversight of the New York Stock Exchange, wants to leave the self-regulatory power with the New York Stock Exchange. Do you think that's acceptable?

SHELBY: I'm not sure that's a good idea. We keep -- I don't want to over-regulate anybody. But the accounting profession certainly couldn't regulate themselves. And I don't see how the New York Stock Exchange in view of what has been happening can regulate themselves. Without some changes in the board and how it is made up and so forth. We had a hearing last week with John Reed and the SEC chairman, Donaldson. We're going to look at it very closely. I think we have to be careful here. The New York Stock Exchange is important as the lead group in the capital markets. But we should not just look the other way.

DOBBS: Now -- I couldn't agree with you more personally, senator. Thank you very much for being with us. Senator Richard Shelby. Always good to talk with you.

SHELBY: Thank you.

DOBBS: An update on our continuing report on "Exporting America," the shipment of American jobs and capital overseas. Hispanic immigrants will send back nearly $30 billion this year back to their home of origin that is far more than the $17 billion in foreign aid the United States sends over the entire world. This information comes from the results of a new study by the PEW Center and the InterAmerican development bank that report says America is no longer simply in a escape out. We are now in a "fuel pump for foreign economies."

Dell Computer, one of the first large American firms to outsource its operations to India and other low wage companies. As a result, when you call Dell's technical support time you're often rerouted to the Dell call center in India. Customers have been complaining about the accents and the scripted responses of Dell's Indian workers. Now Dell says it is returning some of those jobs to the United States. The vice president of Dell services division said of outsourcing sometimes we move a little too far too fast. Dell is not saying how many of those new jobs will come back to its tech support centers in Twin Falls, Idaho and Nashville, Tennessee.

"Tonight's Quote" from a Thanksgiving ceremony at the White House. "It reminds us of the many things for which we can all be thankful for in this country on this holiday. It speaks well for America that one of our most important holidays is set aside for sharing and appreciating our blessings. This year, as in other times in history, we can be special grateful for the courage and the faithfulness of those who defend us." President Bush.

Coming up next, Senate minority leader, Tom Daschle. He's been an outspoken critic of the Medicare reform bill. He'll join us to tell us why he says it is hard to imagine a plan less faithful to what seniors in this country have been promised and deserve. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: On Wall Street, stocks opened the week with a rally. Christine Romans is here with the market for us.

CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNNfn CORRESPONDENT: Do you know it has been since 1966 that the market has gone eight months without a 5 percent pullback?

DOBBS: Yes, I do.

ROMANS: That's because, (UNINTELLIGIBLE) that today. But interesting how long this market moved sideways or at least higher. Today, the dollar rose, oil fell, stocks rallied and investors got bullish on the economy. Many expect tomorrow's GDP report to show growth as high as 8 percent. And a group of economists forecast strong growth into next year. Delta Airlines shares rallied 7 percent today on news its CEO Leo Mullin is retiring in the midst of crucial contract talks with its pilots. Mullin gets a retirement package of $16 million. He earns $20 million in 2001 and 2002. A last year he took a pay cut of $9.1 million in response to criticism that Delta was protecting its executives' pension plans even as it was demanding concessions from its unions. And those concessions, Lou are deep. Delta wants pilot pay cuts up to 22 percent and laid off 16,000 workers since September 11th, and this company is still losing money. Another $164 million in the third quarter. And this quarter is expected to be even worse. Delta's pilots union meets with Delta executives tomorrow. But analysts say it is difficult for this company to argue for deep concessions when its top management has been paid so well. Paid so well so that they could steer them through a very turbulent time in the industry, but Leo Mullin leaves with some unfinished business.

DOBBS: How much money total over the last few years?

ROMANS: Some $25 million, $26 million not counting retirement.

DOBBS: I don't know why people keep talking about egregious CEO pay. It just seems to right for a company on the verge of bankruptcy, who absolutely messed up all of their union contracts, amazing. All right. Thanks, Christine Romans.

Tonight, as we have been reporting, the Senate is, it appears to be ready to approve the landmark Medicare reform legislation. It would be, if approved, the most far reaching overhaul of the federal health care plan and its 38-year history.

One of the bill's most outspoken opponents, of course, is the Senate minority leader, Tom Daschle who joins me now from capitol hill. Senator good to have you here.

SEN. TOM DASCHLE (D-SD), SENATE MINORITY LEADER: Thank you, Lou.

DOBBS: It appears the legislation is going to become law by our last check and on the last skew what is the latest you for a final vote on this.

DASCHLE: The final vote will occur tonight or tomorrow morning. We haven't set a time yet. The debate goes on. The critical votes were this afternoon and we'll see what happens.

DOBBS: You have said that this plan is just simply the wrong approach in every respect. $400 billion is -- are you suggesting that's not enough money or just poorly spent here?

DASCHLE: Well, a combination of both, Lou. It is primarily poorly spent. We could be doing a lot more with the money than providing big handouts to HMOs and the drug companies and to a lot of special interests. A big chunk of this money is not going to go to senior citizens, it's going to be bailouts to big business.

DOBBS: That bailout, as you call it, you're referring to I suppose the modest $88 billion that will incentivize companies to maintain their prescription drug plans?

DASCHLE: Well, it's going to be at least $16 billion to HMOs to set up competing plans with Medicare to provide the kind of drug coverage that we're talking about here. It's a $6 billion plan primarily to those who are healthy to set up health security or health savings accounts. So there are a series of huge, big-ticket items, very expensive big-ticket items that were used in part to build the coalition necessary to pass this bill.

DOBBS: This bill must have a lot of partners, because $400 billion, with projections that it could reach $1.3 to $2 trillion in the second 10 years of operation, is mind-boggling. How can such a piece of legislation with that kind of projected growth rate move ahead? And obviously, because (UNINTELLIGIBLE).

DASCHLE: Well, one of the concerns we have, and it was really the reason I made the point of order this afternoon, was that they virtually have taken out all of the cost control mechanisms here. So I don't know where those predictions came from, but you are going to see a dramatic increase in the cost of drugs, in part because there is so little cost containment left in the bill itself.

That means seniors are going to pay more. It means the whole country is going to pay more, including the government, and that's wrong, and it is one of the reasons I'm opposing this legislation.

DOBBS: $1.3 trillion to $2 trillion, that was the projection from the Congressional Budget Office earlier. And it is, as you suggested, without cost controls, like most projections, it might as well be styled a guess. We're in an era of strong guesses that become projections, I guess, Senator. Let's talk about the -- if we may, as well, your strategy going forward. Senator Kennedy today said the Republicans had effectively hijacked the prescription drug, or were in the throes of doing so, the prescription drug issue, while at the same time, in his judgment, messing up a tried and true program that is Medicare. He said it is going to be a major campaign issue. Is it going to be a major campaign issue in the presidential election?

DASCHLE: I suspect it will. Not only the presidential election, but all the congressional elections around the country. I'm still confident that when the American people, especially senior citizens, find out just what this bill entails, and how they're going to be affected, they're going to be angry. They're going to be frustrated, they're going to be writing to Congress saying we want you to change it.

DOBBS: And you have focused as well concerned about middle income senior Americans and Medicare. What more could have been done for them in your judgment?

DASCHLE: Well, one of the biggest group of seniors that I'm most concerned about who fit in that middle income group are the retirees. They estimate two to three million retirees are going to lose their private drug coverage when this legislation passes. So that's one group in particular that concerns me a great deal.

They're going to be left with nothing. And until we fix it, and we could have fixed it, I'm very concerned about that, and many other aspects of this bill that are going to be unaddressed as we pass it some time in the next 24 hours.

DOBBS: Senator Tom Daschle, we thank you very much for being with us here.

DASCHLE: My pleasure. Thank you, Lou.

DOBBS: Coming up next, we'll share some of your thoughts, including one suggestion on how to solve the problems facing the Medicare system. It's an idea that might not be very popular, however, in our nation's capital. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: Now your thoughts. From Phoenix, Arizona: "Lou, we can solve Medicare and Social Security instantly if we took our fat cat federal legislators off their wonderful self-granted medical and retirement programs, which we pay for, and put them on Medicare and Social Security. I'm positive the savings would be tens of millions of dollars annually." That from Bob Beck.

From Boston, Massachusetts: "You have been so biased about immigrants on your show. I want to remind you once again that we are a nation of immigrants from all over the world. The founders of this beloved land were immigrants. Not to forget our ancestors, we're all pure immigrants." That from Abdi Karim. From Spanaway, Washington: "My husband generally hates conservatives, but he loves Lou Dobbs. We both have great respect for his opinions and the current programming on illegal immigrants and the exporting of American jobs." That from Pam Ullfers.

And from Portland, Oregon: "I had been alarmed recently at your commentary inciting xenophobia amongst the masses. There is a significant anti-immigrant rhetoric coming from your show. Note, Mr. Dobbs, you are a descendent of immigrants as well. Stop the subtle divisiveness to win temporary ratings." That from Cyril Neicherill.

Mr. Neicherill, you are not the first person to write in to suggest it is xenophobic to talk about controlling illegal immigration, and you're not the first to suggest that anti-illegal immigration is the same as anti-immigration. I assure you they are not the same.

And as to your comment about winning temporary rating, let me assure you that if we were interested in winning ratings, our focus on this broadcast would not be on international trade policy, national immigration policy, illegal aliens, education, explosive population growth, the conservation of our natural resources. This may shock you, but these are not typical topics that have typically spiked television ratings. In fact, you may have noticed that this broadcast is free of those subjects that typically do spike ratings, such as stories about M. Jackson, K. Bryant, S. Peterson and P. Hilton.

We appreciate your thoughts. E-mail us anytime at loudobbs@cnn.com. Please include your name and home town.

Let's turn to our poll. Tonight, the results. The question is, is the cost of a Medicare prescription drug benefit too high for the American taxpayer to assume? Sixty-six percent of you said yes, 34 percent said no.

And finally tonight, if you happen to be at the bottom of the world yesterday evening, you were treated to a rare event, a total eclipse of the sun. Scientists and a few lucky others braved subfreezing temperatures as the sun disappeared over Antarctica. Partial eclipses also occurred over parts of Australia and southern New Zealand, South America. The last total eclipse, solar eclipse in Antarctica, was just over a century ago.

That's our show for tonight. We thank you for being with us. For all of us here, good night from New York. "ANDERSON COOPER 360" is coming up next.

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