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Lou Dobbs Tonight
Driver's License Controversy in California; Trade Deficit With China Hits Record High; Should U.S. Military Expand?
Aired December 12, 2003 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR: Tonight: protests and rallies on California over giving millions of illegal aliens legal status and driver's licenses. Miguel Marquez and Casey Wian report. We'll be joined by Brent Wilkes, the national executive director of the League of United Latin American Citizens, and the former state attorney general of California, Dan Lungren.
The U.S. trade deficit with China today soared to a new record high. And Treasury Secretary John Snow went Christmas shopping, buying cheap, imported toys from, you guessed it, China.
In "America Works" tonight, we celebrate a Virginia carpenter who practices his craft with an old-fashioned dedication to hard work and perfection.
Should the U.S. military be expanded to fight the wars of the 21st century? Dozens of congressmen are now saying yes. Congressman Duncan Hunter, chairman of the House Armed Services Committee, is leading the charge.
And what's happening to the middle class in this country? Both parents work, millions of middle-class Americans going bankrupt. The economy is booming. Our special report tonight.
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT for Friday, December 12. Here now, Lou Dobbs.
DOBBS: Good evening.
Tonight, the politics of immigration stretch from California to Washington, D.C. This has been a week where Secretary of Homeland Security Tom Ridge has suggested, as many as 12 million illegal aliens might be given some form of legal status in this country. That was Tuesday. The next day, Undersecretary Asa Hutchinson said -- quote -- "Clearly, this administration has not taken a firm policy position on that and the debate continues."
Yesterday, White House spokesman Scott McClellan said, this is a matter that is really under review at this point. By week's end, the White House appears to be trying to play down expectations of any imminent substantial change in national immigration policy.
White House correspondent Suzanne Malveaux reports -- Suzanne.
SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Lou, the senior administration officials who I have been talking to flat out say that this administration is not debating, they're not considering amnesty for illegal immigrants, that it's not on the table.
What is on the table, what they are debating is some sort of way to determine who is a threat in this country and who is not within that population. They also say, for security reasons, perhaps a way to register illegal immigrants, they say that could be done through perhaps granting work permits or driver's license. But the bottom line here, they say there is no debate over making illegals U.S. citizens.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SCOTT MCCLELLAN, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: I think there are some that interpret this as some broad amnesty discussion. And that's not at all what he was suggesting. He's very involved in obviously overseeing border security and immigration matters, now under the new Department of Homeland Security.
And I think he's been looking at the issue of the large number of illegal immigrants we do have in the country and looking at those that could be threats and those that are here for other reasons. And so he's just talking about the realities that we are facing now.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MALVEAUX: Now, Lou, as you know, there was an ambitious legalization plan prior to September 11. That was put aside after the terrorist attacks.
The Homeland Security Department focusing on tightening up the borders, as well as deportation. White House officials say, Ridge's comments more or less reflect a different tone, as well as a different status, a more secure status of this country, one administration official saying that the president seeking to establish a safe, orderly and humane process of immigration -- Lou.
DOBBS: Suzanne, thank you -- Suzanne Malveaux, reporting from the White House.
In California today, protests and rallies against the repeal of a law that allowed illegal aliens in that state to obtain California driver's licenses. Critics said the law would have given illegal aliens many of the benefits and privileges of U.S. citizens. Those critics also say the law could have led to identity fraud and could have hindered the fight against terrorism.
Miguel Marquez reports from Los Angeles.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MIGUEL MARQUEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): A pinata protest against Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger and his decision to sign the repeal of a law granting driver's licenses to illegal immigrants.
NATIVO LOPEZ, PRESIDENT, MEXICO AMERICAN POLITICAL ASSOCIATION: If our people do not receive driver's license early next year, we will continue to call for economic boycotts, full days of boycotts, work stoppages, school strikes.
MARQUEZ: The law would have allowed an estimated two million undocumented immigrants to get California driver's licenses beginning in January. While its repeal has produced some protests and at least one school walkout, it has not produced the wide-ranging backlash threatened by immigrant leaders.
RICARDO MORENO, IMMIGRANT ACTIVIST: To really be successful, you need at least 80 percent of the people involved. I'm talking about business and all the people. So I would say, no, it's not really getting the support that the callers wish.
MARQUEZ: The state senator who sponsored the law and then sponsored its repeal says the promise from Governor Schwarzenegger to work on a new license law will eventually mean illegal immigrants will drive legally in California.
GIL CEDILLO (D), CALIFORNIA STATE SENATOR: I think, this time next year, all undocumented drivers will be eligible and will be driving. They will be license-tested and insured. And all California motorists will be benefit from that.
MARQUEZ: But the only promise Governor Schwarzenegger is making, at least publicly, is to -- quote -- "look at issue when the regular session of the legislature gets under way in January.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MARQUEZ: Now, the only other thing to keep in mind that is today is a saint day for the Catholic saint the Virgin Mary, all but a national holiday in Mexico. So a lot of immigrants here in California probably would have been taking the day off in any event. So it's not clear if today's economic boycott is anything more than a symbol -- Lou.
DOBBS: You said immigrant leaders. Did you mean immigrant leaders or did you mean illegal alien leaders or groups representing illegal aliens?
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: Because we make a clear distinction on this broadcast, Miguel, as you know, between illegal aliens and legal immigrants.
MARQUEZ: Illegal immigrants, undocumented immigrants or illegal aliens, I think we're all referring to the same individuals.
The leaders of those individuals in these groups, who tend to be American citizens, say -- have been planning this thing since October. And they have been predicting just an enormous outpouring from the immigrant community here. And so far, we haven't seen it -- Lou.
DOBBS: OK. Miguel Marquez, thank you very much.
The groups that organized today's protests wield huge and disproportionate power in California's already muddled and confusing political world. Those groups are using that power without question to intimidate California politicians into silence on the critically important issue of illegal aliens. And those politicians are downright scared.
Casey Wian reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): California Latino boycott organizer are no strangers to controversy. They're led by Nativo Lopez's Mexican American political association and include groups such as MEChA, which advocates a Mexico homeland in the American Southwest.
In February, Lopez was recalled as a member of Santa Ana's school board, because parents in the mostly Hispanic city were angered by his staunch advocacy of bilingual education. Now Lopez has found a bigger stage.
LOPEZ: We will tinker with the economy of California, because Mexicans and Latinos constitute 45 percent of the work force. And the day that Latinos are absent from the economy of California, that will send a wakeup call to the Terminator and to his minions of the California Republican assembly that continue the right-wing shift in pursuing anti-immigrant policies.
WIAN: Never mind that the assembly is dominated by Democrats. Politicians of both parties have been remarkably silent on the boycott.
IRA MEHLMAN, FAIR: They don't want to have anything to do with something that they consider controversial. And so they'd rather simply appease a handful of special interests and self-appointed spokesmen for millions of people here in California and really ignore what the majority of Californians believe and feel, that this has nothing to do with race, it has nothing to do with ethnicity, and has everything to do with whether people obey our laws or not.
WIAN: Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger and his recalled predecessor, Gray Davis, have both flip-flopped on illegal alien driver's licenses under pressure from Latino activists.
Davis twice vetoed bills that would have allowed illegal aliens to drive legally, before signing one this year, in an apparent attempt to influence Latino voters during the recall. Schwarzenegger repealed that bill, but refuses to rule out a compromise next year.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
WIAN: That's despite the fact that exit polls taken during the recall election showed 62 percent of California voters were against driver's licenses for illegal aliens -- Lou.
DOBBS: And, Casey, the very point made by a number of these leaders, they are talking about Hispanic organizations, Latino organizations as if Hispanics and Latinos in Southern California were all illegal. This issue is about driver's license for illegal aliens. Are people getting somewhat concerned about the umbrella use of immigrant, when they mean illegal alien?
WIAN: Absolutely. There are a lot of mixed messages being delivered to Californians. And symbolism is very important to these leaders.
We can just take the name of the gentleman who organized the protest. He's known as Nativo Lopez now. He was born Larry Lopez. He changed his name at age 17 to the Spanish word for native. So there's a lot of symbolism, a lot of mixed messages going on throughout this debate -- Lou.
DOBBS: In some quarters, we call that politics, right?
WIAN: Absolutely.
DOBBS: Casey Wian, thank you very much.
Well, we invited Nativo Lopez, president of the American Mexico Political Association, one of the sponsors of today's protests in California, to join us on the broadcast tonight. He refused. His reason: He said he didn't want to appear with me because I use the term illegal alien instead of undocumented worker.
Mr. Lopez also said that, beginning tonight, his organization will boycott any organization that uses the term illegal alien.
America's lack of clear, consistent immigration policy is in sharp contrast to the policies of European countries. Many European countries require every resident to register and to carry a national I.D. card. They are required to carry those cards. And failure to produce cards to police when asked can result in arrest. The commitment to enforcement can be seen in the numbers of officers.
The United States has a couple of hundred officers committed to workplace enforcement, while, in Germany, for example, there are 5,000.
Coming up next: Should illegal aliens be given legal status in this country? I'll be joined by the former attorney general of the state of California, Dan Lungren, who is also running for Congress, and Brent Wilkes, the executive director of the League of United Latin American Citizens.
And "Exporting America," buying Chinese instead of American this holiday season. We're talking about the secretary of the United States Department of Treasury. Peter Viles will have the story.
And expanding the U.S. military. Congressman Duncan Hunter, chairman of the Armed Services Committee, says, enough is enough when it comes to the current strain on our armed forces. Congressman Hunter joins us.
Please stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: As we reported to you at the outset here, groups in California today staged a boycott to protest the repeal of a law that would have allowed illegal aliens to obtain California driver's licenses. Critics say that law would have created a huge security risk.
Joining me now for more on this issue, Dan Lungren, former attorney general of the state of California. He is running for Congress. And Brent Wilkes, the executive director for the League of United Latin American Citizens, this country's largest and older Hispanic organization. They join us tonight from Washington, D.C.
Gentlemen, good to have you with us.
BRENT WILKES, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, LEAGUE OF UNITED LATIN AMERICAN CITIZENS: Thank you.
DAN LUNGREN, FORMER CALIFORNIA ATTORNEY GENERAL: Thank you.
DOBBS: The organization and organizations that put together the protests today, let me ask you this, Mr. Wilkes. The very idea that illegal aliens in this country would be demanding what are privileges for every other American citizen seems confounding, to say the least.
WILKES: Not at all. It's a very practical solution.
Basically, a driver's license is to find out whether someone is fit to drive and to make sure that we license the driving process in a given state. Obviously, we want all drivers in that state to be licensed and to be going through the proper procedures to get a license, including folks who are here that are not documented. So it's a practical solution. It's a safety thing, something that people who ought have their insurance paid for, things of that sort. It's a very practical reason to have it.
And there's people who break laws in California other than undocumented immigrants. All of them have driver's licenses. Why is it this one particular law suddenly becomes a situation where we are going to deny them every single basic right we can think of, including the right to own a driver's license?
DOBBS: Well, what right do they have as illegal aliens in this country, sir?
WILKES: They have all the human rights that we would give
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: Well, it's a human right. It's not a legal right. They certainly should be accorded every human right.
WILKES: Right.
And part of that human right is to be able to support their families, to get good jobs. They have broken one law, which is a misdemeanor law. And, in many cases, they're working to try to rectify that situation. They're helping our economy. They're contributing to our country. They're performing very valuable services. And because of that one misdemeanor that they have broken, we want to take away every single thing that could make their lives easier.
And that just doesn't make sense. It's mean, mean-spirited. And I don't see why we would do that.
DOBBS: Mr. Lungren?
LUNGREN: Lou, we're not taking away single thing that they have, every right they have. We're taking away what is known as a privilege to have driver's license.
In the state of California, I sponsored legislation which was passed by a Democratic legislature, signed by a Republican governor, which will take away a license from someone who is under the drinking age for drinking, not drinking and driving, for drinking. And the idea was that the tremendous incentive of the privilege of driving would be an incentive which would help them to follow the law.
So what we're saying here, as I hear, is that, somehow, we should treat illegal aliens in a preferred position over our own children in our own state. This is not a human right at all.
(CROSSTALK)
LUNGREN: It is a question of a privilege, No. 1.
No. 2, you're creating an incentive for people to not, in fact, honor the law. If we're going to do something about legalizing people in the United States, that ought to be done on a comprehensive basis, if we're even talking about it at all, not do something like this, which further encourages people to break the law.
WILKES: No. 1, if you drink and drive, you're endangering other people's lives.
(CROSSTALK)
LUNGREN: It's not drinking and driving. In California, if you drink under the legal age, one of the penalties that can be imposed is that you lose your license. It is because it is a privilege that we're able to do it.
It is an incentive to try and get people to do the right thing. In this case, we're suggesting we ought to take a group of people, give them a privileged position to break the law and still receive the privilege.
WILKES: If you commit murder in the state of California, you still can have a driver's license. If you commit major felonies, you can still have a driver's license.
The only felony, other than driving dangerously because you're drunk or speeding or something like that, and you lose a license because you're endangering people, the only other crime in the country -- in that state where you will lose your license is if you happen to break a misdemeanor immigration law. That's just wrong. They should not be treated differently than anybody else in California.
(CROSSTALK)
WILKES: They should have the right to drive. And it's a safety issue.
It's not smart to take away people's driver's licenses. That's just bad policy. More people are going to be without licenses on the roads. And they're going to be endangering other people's lives because, if they get into an accident, they're not going to stick around to let the cops come and get them.
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: Mr. Wilkes, let me ask you both this. We heard Nativo Lopez say that 40 percent of the population of California is Hispanic or Latino and that they should be addressing these issues as an ethnic bloc.
Do you believe that the issue of illegal aliens in this country should be addressed on the basis of ethnicity, rather than legality?
WILKES: Only to the extent that the majority population makes an issue of ethnicity.
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: I'm sorry. Could you say that again?
WILKES: Only to the extent the majority population, that is, us white Americans, makes it an issue of ethnicity.
If we want to approach the dialogue honestly and deal with the immigration issue and do what's right for America and what's right for the immigrants, without bringing race into the equation, then I think we should not use ethnic blocs as part of this debate.
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: I'm sorry. I thought that Hispanics in this country were considered white.
WILKES: They are of Hispanic origin, so it is an ethnicity. They can be considered white. It depends on what their preference is.
LUNGREN: Lou, we should not make it a question of ethnicity.
It is a question of whether or not it is fair to create incentives for people to jump in front of the line. There are millions of people, nonwhite, as well as white, around the world waiting in line to come to this country. It takes many, many, years for people from the Philippines to come here, many, many years for people from Africa to come here. And the question is, should we set up a system which encourages people to cut in line in front of millions of others to come here?
They have just as much a right, just as much poverty, just as much concern from other parts of the world. But they don't have the land bridge. The fact of the matter is, we have a significant problem with immigration that is illegal in our country. We have not faced it.
I thought we did in '86, when I was the floor manager of Simpson- Mazzoli bill. We did legalize a good number of people then. But we also put in employer sanctions and said we were going to enforce the law. We failed to enforce the law. And the question now confronting this country is, how do we deal with this big problem in a way that does not create incentives for people to continue to break the law?
DOBBS: Let me say that Mr. Lungren is referring to the amnesty in 1986; 2.5 million to three million illegal aliens at that point were given amnesty, with the hope and the expectation that it would solve the illegal immigration problem in this country.
LUNGREN: But, Lou, more precisely, it was a specific legalization program. It was not a blanket amnesty.
DOBBS: Right.
LUNGREN: You had to show that you had been in this country and had established roots in the country, so as not to attract people to just jump across the border so they would be eligible.
DOBBS: Let me ask you both, we're talking, almost in every instance in this country -- and we were reporting on this issue, as you gentlemen both know, extensively.
One of the remarkable things is that no one knows how many illegal aliens in this country there actually are. Estimates range from eight million to 12 million, as the secretary of homeland security said this week, as we report here every week. The number of illegal aliens in this country, we don't know. We have no force to carry out the enforcement, no agency to carry out the enforcement of our immigration law.
We seem to have no particular qualms about the fact that 700,000, an estimated 700,000 illegal aliens enter this country every year. Isn't it better for our taxpaying citizens, for those illegal aliens, for all of us to have a national dialogue on immigration policy that would be humane, that would be rational and that would be effective, rather than dealing state by state and issue by issue on an ad hoc basis?
Mr. Wilkes?
WILKES: Lou, you're 100 percent correct.
That is exactly what we would like to see, a national dialogue, one that does not bring race or ethnicity into the equation, one that's fair and does the right thing for America and the right thing for the immigrants. And I think, if you did do that, you would find out that we are benefiting from the presence of these undocumented immigrants that are currently here and that they would very much benefit if we were to create a legal process for them to be here.
There's this misperception that you can currently get in line -- if you're a Mexican and you want to come to the United States, all you have to do is get in line and wait your turn. There is no line, folks. There is no line. It's only for certain family categories, where you can even get in that line. And if you don't have the family connection, you can just forget about it. So we have got to do something to address the issue, because it's going to keep happening.
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: Mr. Lungren, we're out of time. Mr. Lungren, you get the last word.
LUNGREN: Lou, we have to address it as a national issue. But we also have to be serious about the fact that there are jobs that are taken by people who are here illegally. We ought to have a guest worker program that we, as a country, control the numbers that come in, where they work, and enforce our laws on the border, which we have not done for at least two or three generations.
DOBBS: Gentlemen, Mr. Wilkes, Mr. Lungren, we thank you both for being here to talk about this very important issue. We hope you'll come back with us soon, as this dialogue will continue on this broadcast, certainly.
(CROSSTALK)
WILKES: Thank you for having us on. Thank you.
DOBBS: We want to hear from you on this very important issue. And our poll question tonight is: Should a national immigration policy include amnesty for illegal aliens living and working in the United States, yes or no? We will have the results later in the broadcast.
Coming up next: "Exporting America" -- tonight, an administration official buying and even defending cheap foreign-made goods while he does his holiday shopping. Peter Viles reports.
And "America Works." Tonight, we celebrate the hard-working people who are the backbone of this country. Tonight, we introduce you to a carpenter who built a business on honesty, family and great American values. Lisa Sylvester will have his story from Derwood, Maryland.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ANNOUNCER: LOU DOBBS TONIGHT continues. Now, "Exporting America."
DOBBS: The United States trade deficit hit another record high this month, as Americans' desire for foreign goods continues to far outweigh this country's exports. The U.S. trade deficit with China hit an all-time high in the month of October, the deficit expected to reach $130 billion this year.
In spite of this alarming trend, a trend that has contributed to the loss of nearly three million American jobs, Treasury Secretary John Snow today went shopping for toys. And buying American apparently was not a priority, nor even necessarily a possibility.
Peter Viles reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
PETER VILES, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): On a day when the trade deficit with China hit another record high, the treasury secretary sent a strange message. With reporters in tow, he went toy shopping and bought Chinese-made toy. In fact, Secretary Snow beamed at just how cheap the toys are this year.
JOHN SNOW, TREASURY SECRETARY: The prices in these stores, I bought 13 items for a total price of about $200. And these are items that would have cost some multiple of that just two, three, four years ago. So the American consumer is getting a terrific, a terrific deal.
VILES: The secretary particularly taken with the Hokey Pokey Elmo toy, made in China.
SNOW: Can't be without one of these.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, no.
VILES: He picked up a pink poodle purse made in China, also a Swan Lake Barbie, made in Indonesia, and this flip-over Darby Dog made in China. Finally, we had to ask him, well, what about toys made in America?
QUESTION: Mr. Secretary, of those 13 items, how many do you think were made in America?
SNOW: I didn't count, but Toys 'R' Us is a global company. And some portion were and some portion probably wasn't, reflecting the global nature of the economy we're in today.
VILES: But with that trade deficit out of control, isn't he concerned that cheap toys from China are part of the problem?
SNOW: Well, I low-cost toys make Santa's life a lot better. Santa's got a lot more to deliver because of low-cost toys.
VILES: You can find toys made in America, but you have to look. This is the Top-no-sis, the world's longest spinning top.
ED RUBIN, TOY INVENTOR: There are no batteries, no motors, no magnets. But there is something interesting which allows it to process energy, energy of the player.
VILES: The toy is made in Upstate New York by its inventory, Ed Rubin.
RUBIN: But if I had it made in Taiwan or some place like that, I probably would spend a fortune on quality control. This is not a simple thing to make.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
VILES: It's also not that simple to play with, I can tell you, Lou.
Other toys we found that are made in America, good old Crayola crayons. They are made in Pennsylvania. And my favorite today, the American edition of the Monopoly game, a special edition, this made in America. You teach your kids about capitalism. No accounting fraud in this game. It's a wonderful example.
DOBBS: Are you sure no accounting fraud? No corporate corruption?
VILES: Only if the kids come up with it independently.
DOBBS: No Wall Street scandals?
And what makes it special edition?
VILES: It has got a special theme, different properties on it. You can find the Washington Monument.
DOBBS: The fact that it's made in America?
VILES: And it is made in America, yes, all parts made in America.
DOBBS: Pete, thank you. That's amazing. The treasury secretary, he just was out there just to boost the retail sales, I guess?
VILES: To speak to the strength in the economy. There are people think it is wonderful that we can buy these cheap Chinese goods. And that is the case that he made today.
DOBBS: It would be nice if we weren't paying, ostensibly, this year about $130 billion in IOUs against our assets to do so.
VILES: Sure. And toys are not a small business, $30 billion- plus at retail in the United States.
DOBBS: And no small cost in jobs.
Peter Viles, thank you.
Well, coming up, we'll be talking about expanding the military. Congressman Duncan Hunter, chairman of the Armed Services Committee, joins us. He says national defense has become a lower priority. It's time defense took its rightful place. Congressman Hunter joins us next. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: The United States expects reimbursement from Halliburton if a Pentagon audit is correct that the Houston oil services company overcharged for a portion of its $15 billion Iraqi reconstruction contract.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I expect anybody doing business with the United States government to be transparent and to give the taxpayers a good return on their money. That's what I expect. And if anybody is overcharging the government, we expect them to repay that money.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: According to the Pentagon, Halliburton's problems may extend beyond overcharging more than $60 million for fuel and other items. That audit is ongoing, Halliburton, of course, formerly headed by Vice President Dick Cheney.
For months now, we have been reporting here that the U.S. armed forces are stretched to the breaking point by the huge stress of fighting two wars simultaneously. Now members of Congress are taking the lead, many lawmakers calling for a big increase in the size of the active-duty military for the first time in 16 years. And they're doing so despite protests from the secretary of the Department of Defense.
Senior Pentagon correspondent Jamie McIntyre has the story -- Jamie.
JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN MILITARY AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Well, Lou, as you've noted, this is an issue that's been building for months.
Every time Defense Secretary Rumsfeld goes to Capitol Hill, he faces sharp questions about why the size of the U.S. military shouldn't be expanded, given the commitments. Now, no one is disputing that the U.S. military is stretched and stressed right now. But again today, in a meeting before some state lawmakers, Rumsfeld insisted that what the U.S. military's experiencing now is a temporary spike.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: Is the force currently stressed? Yes. You don't have a spike of activity and have 130,000, 125,000, whatever it is, folks over in Iraq and not have a stress on the force.
But the total force concept, as you know, was designed for that. It was designed to have an active force, a Guard and a Reserve. And, in a time of crisis, they would be called in and you would spike up in activity and then not stay there over a prolonged period of time.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MCINTYRE: Now, while critics argue that it's self-evident that, if the U.S. Army had a couple of more divisions, maybe as many as three or four more divisions, it would be easier to tackle the tasks facing them right now.
But Rumsfeld insists that the detailed Pentagon analysis that he's seen still doesn't justify any expansion in the force. And, he argues, it would be the most expensive solution and prevent the Pentagon from spending much-needed money to transform the rest of the military -- Lou.
DOBBS: Much more than the $400 billion budget?
MCINTYRE: That's right. Well, he's saying that, if you added those divisions, that would cost a lot of money. And that means they would have to cut other areas where they're trying to spend money to transform the military.
DOBBS: Jamie, thank you very much -- Jamie McIntyre, our senior Pentagon correspondent.
My guest tonight says the size of the active-duty force should be increased significantly, even if it costs tens of billions of dollars.
Joining me now is Congressman Duncan Hunter. He is the chairman of the House Armed Services Committee.
Mr. Chairman, good to have you here.
REP. DUNCAN HUNTER (R), CALIFORNIA: Good to be with you, Lou.
DOBBS: Mr. Chairman, how urgent is it, in your judgment, that we raise the force level?
HUNTER: Well, I think the secretary needs to be commended for the great job he's been doing. He's been doing a good job with what he has.
And it's true that, if you look into the budget in the next year and you add another two divisions, that's $10 billion, you're going to have to take that money from another part of the defense budget. And that might be modernization, the new planes, new helicopters that we need, or other areas. I think we need to raise the top line for defense spending. That means spend more on national defense. And I think we need to do it soon.
DOBBS: How large an Army would you like to see?
HUNTER: Well, I'd like to see -- just to give you a little background, we cut the Army from 18 divisions in 1991 to 10 divisions when Bill Clinton walked out of the White House.
DOBBS: Right.
HUNTER: We also cut the Air Force from 24 air wings to only 13 and the Navy from 546 ships to only 300 ships. So we need to do a little replacing in several of the services.
But I'd like to see the Army with at least two more divisions. Don't take it back up to 18, maybe have one of those divisions dedicated to special operations. That means in-strength increases in the SEALs, the special operators, special forces, the U.S. Army Rangers, and the maybe the other division a heavy division, with lots of airlift.
But there's lots of places where we need to spend money. And if you're constrained by this 3.5 percent of gross national product that we're now spending on defense, that's the $400 billion budget with a little more for next year, you're not going to get there. I think we have to go up to about 4.5 percent of gross national product being dedicated to national defense.
And, once again, we can handle the current situation with what we have. But it's the unexpected. It's insurance against the unexpected that I think we should be looking at right now. And, if we had to fight in Korea, if we had to fight in the Taiwan straits, we have now 19 brigades of our 33 combat brigades committed around the world. It would be very difficult.
DOBBS: Very difficult, and, as you say, raising the budget to -- would be -- you would be talking about raising the budget, the defense budget, by about a third to get that level of GDP. And while that might sound high, it would be still about half the U.S. defense budget 40 years ago.
HUNTER: Exactly.
John Kennedy spent 9 percent of GDP on defense. Ronald Reagan spent 6 percent of GDP on defense. We're spending about 3.5 percent right now. I think it's good insurance to go to about 4 or 4.5 percent. And Secretary Rumsfeld operates with the dollars that he's allotted. I think we need to make a strong case this year to the White House, to the president.
And I've talked to the president a little bit about this already. But I think we need to make the strong case that national security is obviously the linchpin under which all of our other freedoms are allowed to operate. And we have a world -- this new century is a century of terrorists with high technology. And we're going to have some unexpected things happen.
DOBBS: Unexpected. And also implicit in the response strategy of the U.S. military is that there could be a ramp-up period, and that period would be covered by the U.S. Air Force, the Navy, before ground troops could be there. That may, in point of fact, not be the scenario that the U.S. military would encounter.
HUNTER: That's precisely right, Lou.
Lou, if you look at the big conflicts we've been in, in the last century, most of them were unexpected. And they caught the United States in a period when we had to build up our industrial base to respond and we used these great oceans that lay between us and theaters to do that. In this age of missiles and terrorists with high technology, that luxury is no longer available.
DOBBS: The drawdown in force that you mentioned, you did mention President Clinton. I was just going to add to that, if I may, President Bush. He also -- he is the one who actually began the initiation of the drawdown in forces in his presidency. I'm talking about George Bush I, if you will.
HUNTER: That's true. But he took the forces from 18 Army divisions, for example, down to 14 or 15.
There was no reason to continue to cut below that level, down to the 10 Army division. In my estimation -- and I looked at all the analysis -- there was no substantial analysis that justified cutting the Army in half. And that was done under the last administration. Nonetheless, I think we need to come back up a little bit. It's going to cost real money. We need to understand it's important to do it.
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: Are you going to be successful?
HUNTER: I hope so. I think the case is being made.
There's lots of reverberations, I think, from this high-personnel tempo. That's the sergeant that's coming home who's now only seeing his kids once every two or three or four Christmases. And this is a volunteer military. We have to -- these people don't have to join the military. They don't have to do this job. And if we make it so tough that quality of life is degraded, we're not going to see those recruitments meeting the goal.
(CROSSTALK)
HUNTER: And, at that point, you're going to have to pay them a lot more money. You're going to have to come up with a lot more benefits. Part of this is having enough troops.
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: I apologize. We are out of time. I appreciate your being here, Mr. Chairman, and look forward to talking to you soon.
HUNTER: Good to be with you, Lou.
DOBBS: Tonight's thought is on what it takes to win a battle: "Wars may be fought with weapons, but they are won by men" -- General George S. Patton.
Coming up next: putting the squeeze on the middle-class, staggering increases in home prices in this country, staggering increases in the cost of health care and education. The middle class is under siege. Amelia Warren Tyagi is the co-author of "The Two- Income Trap." She joins me next.
And in "America Works" tonight, we celebrate a carpenter who's dedicated to traditional values of hard work and honesty. And Lisa Sylvester has his story.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Now for a look at some of your thoughts on "Broken Borders."
From Collingdale, Pennsylvania: "The solution to the illegal alien problem is this: fine the companies that employ them. Oh, and how about banning them from government contracts for five years? You go after drug users to stop the drug trade. Let's do the same for corporate addiction to cheap labor, with minimal legal recourse against their employers" -- that from Scott Coon.
And from Middletown, New Jersey: "How can Tom Ridge or anyone else even consider making about 10 million illegal aliens citizens just like that? It undermines the whole immigration process. If this should happen now, what happens when more illegal aliens cross the border? Do we make them citizens as well? Where does it stop? Don't just look for a quick, easy solution that's going to cost taxpayers money. Do your job and do it right" -- George Pilieri.
From Lewisburg, West Virginia: "Amnesty for illegal aliens? Why don't we just forget that we have borders, do away with customs, border patrols and the INS? Just think of the money we would save without those agencies" -- Ken Johnson.
From Denver, Colorado: "I just got home and turned on your show. Did I hear correctly? Not only are we talking amnesty, but illegal immigrants should be allowed to keep their benefits even if they're returned to Mexico? I feel like I fell through the looking glass with Alice. This is insane. Why don't we just make Mexico a state and be done with it?" -- Catherine.
And on the bidding for Iraqi contracts, from Dallas-Fort Worth, Texas: "Only those countries who fronted personnel and money should be allowed contracts to rebuild in Iraq. A few countries sacrificed much, including their lives, to free the Iraqi people. How dare those who would not participate then want to benefit from the sacrifice of others? Freedom comes at a high price. Let's not repay those who did not contribute in the crucial time" -- Susan Caver.
From Renton, Washington: "When President Bush says he is rewarding those who put their lives on the line, I wonder if he can name any of the executives from Halliburton or any of the other companies that put their lives on the line. Our soldiers will not benefit from his explanation" --that from Ron McCallie.
And from Hartville, Ohio: "What in the world is happening? I've always thought I was a conservative Republican. And Lou Dobbs often sounds like a liberal Democrat. So why do I consider him must-see TV?"
There's some things we just don't want to overanalyze, Ed. We appreciate it. And we love hearing from you. E-mail us at LouDobbs@CNN.com.
Now a look at companies that we've added to the list of those confirmed by our staff to be exporting America. These are the companies sending American jobs overseas or choosing to employ cheap foreign labor instead of employing American worker. Here are the companies we have confirmed today to be exporting America: Agilent Technologies, Black & Decker, Capital One, Lockheed Martin, SEI Investments -- that's a financial services company based in Oaks, Pennsylvania -- Tyco Electronics, United Technologies.
We're working every day to confirm thousands of e-mails we have received from you, a process that will take here weeks and weeks. But we're committed to do it. Please keep sending us the names of those companies you know to be exporting jobs to cheap foreign labor markets. Send them to us at LouDobbs@CNN.com.
As you know and as we have repeatedly said, no one is keeping track of the number of jobs lost to outsourcing, to exporting overseas to cheap foreign markets. We're trying to build that file here.
A reminder now to vote in our poll. The question: Should a national immigration policy include amnesty for illegal aliens living and working in the United States, yes or no? Cast your vote at CNN.com/Lou. We'll have results for you later in the broadcast.
Coming up next: squeezing out the middle class in this country. A staggering 90 percent of bankruptcies are filed by middle-class families. Amelia Warren Tyagi is the co-author of "The Two-Income Trap." She's our guest next.
Please stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: American families often see no other way to survive than to have both parents work.
But my next guest's best-selling book says the idea is a con. It's left millions in or near bankruptcy, "The Two-Income Trap: Why Middle-Class Mothers and Fathers Are Going Broke." Amelia Warren Tyagi wrote it with her mother, Harvard Law Professor Elizabeth Warren.
Amelia joins us tonight from Los Angeles.
Good to have you here.
AMELIA WARREN TYAGI, CO-AUTHOR, "THE TWO-INCOME TRAP": Thank you. Glad to be here.
DOBBS: The middle class in this country is feeling a terrible squeeze, whether it is taxation, whether it is regulation, whether it is education. Why are so many middle-class families going broke, two parents working, in many cases?
TYAGI: Families are feeling squeezed to pay for the basics, as you said.
At the rate we're going, one in seven middle-class families will be bankrupt by the end of this decade. For most of those families, the strain is around paying for home, child care, preschool, health insurance. It's really about the basics.
DOBBS: Are they just crazy living beyond their means, trying to do too much, too high expectations for a limited budget?
TYAGI: These aren't crazy expectations.
A generation ago, the average family could buy an average house on one income. Today, that isn't possible in two-thirds of American cities. Middle-class families, they want to get their children a good education. They want to keep them healthy and safe. I don't think those are crazy.
DOBBS: Neither do I, Amelia.
And the fact is that they can't even get an education for their children, which was free, is a great trust in this company. At least our middle-class, hard-working families should have their children go off to school, know they'll be safe, be well-educated, and be ready to drive the future of the country. Why not?
TYAGI: A generation ago, you could send your kids to the public school down the street and not worry too much about it. That's just not the way it is for my generation.
And it's coming out in those housing price. Families are bidding up the cost of homes in the neighborhoods with the good school districts. And families are feeling the pinch.
DOBBS: They're feeling the pinch. And, in many cases, their jobs, as we have been reporting here, are simply being lost to foreign competition or outsourced by American companies abroad to cheap labor markets. What is the solution here?
TYAGI: There are things families can do to protect themselves. The fact is, the game has gotten harder. Families need to arm themselves with information so they can play it smarter.
But, at the same time, America needs to look at this from a holistic standpoint. We've got to talk about how do you get more affordable health care, how do we rein in a credit card industry that's been allowed to make up its own rules. And it's, frankly, taken a lot of these families for suckers and taking their money.
DOBBS: And we're driving expectations in the media as well. And we have two parents in many families making a choice that ostensibly is theirs for both parents to have careers.
Is it time for families to have a little talk and say, maybe it's important for one of those parents to choose to take care of those kids, to nurture a future? TYAGI: I think families do have that talk. I don't think parents just leave the kids at home without thought. That's a very difficult decision.
The fact is, a lot of families feel they don't have a choice financially. They're looking at choices between sending mom to work and giving the kids health insurance. Those are no-win choices, any way you look at it.
DOBBS: And, unfortunately, it is, right now, the only way in which to maintain a standard of living for families in this country. And it suggests that we've got resurrect the American dream for that all-important middle class in this country.
Amelia, we thank you very much for being with us.
TYAGI: Thank you.
DOBBS: Coming up next here: "America Works" tonight, our series honoring the Americans who make this country work. Tonight, we introduce you to a man who built a successful business based on what he loves to do, and that is build. Lisa Sylvester will have his story next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Now some interesting results on tonight's poll; 50 percent of you said a national immigration policy should include amnesty for illegal aliens living and working in the United States; 50 percent said it should not.
"America Works" -- tonight, a carpenter who built his passion into a business with three simple rules: Be honest, work hard, and, above all, enjoy it.
Lisa Sylvester has his story.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
PETE GANGINIS, CARPENTER: OK. Perfect.
LISA SYLVESTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Pete Ganginis has built a life out of building things. He started working as a carpenter for his uncle 33 years ago. But his passion for wood began when he was just a kid.
P. GANGINIS: My favorite thing was Lincoln Logs. I don't know if you're familiar with that. I wore mine out. I was constantly playing with them.
SYLVESTER: Now his projects are a lot bigger. Ganginis is remodeling this Maryland home from top to bottom. His job includes teaching younger carpenters, sharing what years of work have taught him, work for what you get, be honest with people, and enjoy what you do for a living. (on camera): Carpenters like Pete say they would not want to exchange places with someone who works behind a desk. They find it very satisfying building something with their hands.
P. GANGINIS: I'm kind of dreading when there will come a point where I can't climb the ladders or the roofs anymore. But it's very joyful to do this.
SYLVESTER (voice-over): Ganginis also enjoys contributing to his community. He and a friend built this gazebo for the neighborhood park where he played growing up. He's always been a family first kind of guy. His wife helps him keep the books. And his company is called Ganginis & Daughters. His 20-year-old daughter may follow him into the business. She is studying to be an architect.
AMANDA GANGINIS, DAUGHTER OF PETE GANGINIS: I just happened to love it. And that was just sort of a coincidence. But, obviously, he had something to do with it.
P. GANGINIS: Family is very important. I work very hard. And it's mainly for the family.
SYLVESTER: As much as Ganginis loves all of the things he's built over the years, his greatest accomplishment is the family he's built.
Lisa Sylvester, CNN, Derwood, Maryland.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: And that concludes our show tonight. We thank you for being with us.
Monday night, please join us for our series of special reports all next week, "Broken Borders." Should the millions of illegal aliens living in this country be given an amnesty? State Senator of California Gil Cedillo will join us to tell us why he sponsored a bill that would give driver's licenses to illegal aliens.
For all of us here, good night from New York City. Have a very pleasant weekend. Good night from New York.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
With China Hits Record High; Should U.S. Military Expand?>
Aired December 12, 2003 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR: Tonight: protests and rallies on California over giving millions of illegal aliens legal status and driver's licenses. Miguel Marquez and Casey Wian report. We'll be joined by Brent Wilkes, the national executive director of the League of United Latin American Citizens, and the former state attorney general of California, Dan Lungren.
The U.S. trade deficit with China today soared to a new record high. And Treasury Secretary John Snow went Christmas shopping, buying cheap, imported toys from, you guessed it, China.
In "America Works" tonight, we celebrate a Virginia carpenter who practices his craft with an old-fashioned dedication to hard work and perfection.
Should the U.S. military be expanded to fight the wars of the 21st century? Dozens of congressmen are now saying yes. Congressman Duncan Hunter, chairman of the House Armed Services Committee, is leading the charge.
And what's happening to the middle class in this country? Both parents work, millions of middle-class Americans going bankrupt. The economy is booming. Our special report tonight.
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT for Friday, December 12. Here now, Lou Dobbs.
DOBBS: Good evening.
Tonight, the politics of immigration stretch from California to Washington, D.C. This has been a week where Secretary of Homeland Security Tom Ridge has suggested, as many as 12 million illegal aliens might be given some form of legal status in this country. That was Tuesday. The next day, Undersecretary Asa Hutchinson said -- quote -- "Clearly, this administration has not taken a firm policy position on that and the debate continues."
Yesterday, White House spokesman Scott McClellan said, this is a matter that is really under review at this point. By week's end, the White House appears to be trying to play down expectations of any imminent substantial change in national immigration policy.
White House correspondent Suzanne Malveaux reports -- Suzanne.
SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Lou, the senior administration officials who I have been talking to flat out say that this administration is not debating, they're not considering amnesty for illegal immigrants, that it's not on the table.
What is on the table, what they are debating is some sort of way to determine who is a threat in this country and who is not within that population. They also say, for security reasons, perhaps a way to register illegal immigrants, they say that could be done through perhaps granting work permits or driver's license. But the bottom line here, they say there is no debate over making illegals U.S. citizens.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SCOTT MCCLELLAN, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: I think there are some that interpret this as some broad amnesty discussion. And that's not at all what he was suggesting. He's very involved in obviously overseeing border security and immigration matters, now under the new Department of Homeland Security.
And I think he's been looking at the issue of the large number of illegal immigrants we do have in the country and looking at those that could be threats and those that are here for other reasons. And so he's just talking about the realities that we are facing now.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MALVEAUX: Now, Lou, as you know, there was an ambitious legalization plan prior to September 11. That was put aside after the terrorist attacks.
The Homeland Security Department focusing on tightening up the borders, as well as deportation. White House officials say, Ridge's comments more or less reflect a different tone, as well as a different status, a more secure status of this country, one administration official saying that the president seeking to establish a safe, orderly and humane process of immigration -- Lou.
DOBBS: Suzanne, thank you -- Suzanne Malveaux, reporting from the White House.
In California today, protests and rallies against the repeal of a law that allowed illegal aliens in that state to obtain California driver's licenses. Critics said the law would have given illegal aliens many of the benefits and privileges of U.S. citizens. Those critics also say the law could have led to identity fraud and could have hindered the fight against terrorism.
Miguel Marquez reports from Los Angeles.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MIGUEL MARQUEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): A pinata protest against Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger and his decision to sign the repeal of a law granting driver's licenses to illegal immigrants.
NATIVO LOPEZ, PRESIDENT, MEXICO AMERICAN POLITICAL ASSOCIATION: If our people do not receive driver's license early next year, we will continue to call for economic boycotts, full days of boycotts, work stoppages, school strikes.
MARQUEZ: The law would have allowed an estimated two million undocumented immigrants to get California driver's licenses beginning in January. While its repeal has produced some protests and at least one school walkout, it has not produced the wide-ranging backlash threatened by immigrant leaders.
RICARDO MORENO, IMMIGRANT ACTIVIST: To really be successful, you need at least 80 percent of the people involved. I'm talking about business and all the people. So I would say, no, it's not really getting the support that the callers wish.
MARQUEZ: The state senator who sponsored the law and then sponsored its repeal says the promise from Governor Schwarzenegger to work on a new license law will eventually mean illegal immigrants will drive legally in California.
GIL CEDILLO (D), CALIFORNIA STATE SENATOR: I think, this time next year, all undocumented drivers will be eligible and will be driving. They will be license-tested and insured. And all California motorists will be benefit from that.
MARQUEZ: But the only promise Governor Schwarzenegger is making, at least publicly, is to -- quote -- "look at issue when the regular session of the legislature gets under way in January.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MARQUEZ: Now, the only other thing to keep in mind that is today is a saint day for the Catholic saint the Virgin Mary, all but a national holiday in Mexico. So a lot of immigrants here in California probably would have been taking the day off in any event. So it's not clear if today's economic boycott is anything more than a symbol -- Lou.
DOBBS: You said immigrant leaders. Did you mean immigrant leaders or did you mean illegal alien leaders or groups representing illegal aliens?
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: Because we make a clear distinction on this broadcast, Miguel, as you know, between illegal aliens and legal immigrants.
MARQUEZ: Illegal immigrants, undocumented immigrants or illegal aliens, I think we're all referring to the same individuals.
The leaders of those individuals in these groups, who tend to be American citizens, say -- have been planning this thing since October. And they have been predicting just an enormous outpouring from the immigrant community here. And so far, we haven't seen it -- Lou.
DOBBS: OK. Miguel Marquez, thank you very much.
The groups that organized today's protests wield huge and disproportionate power in California's already muddled and confusing political world. Those groups are using that power without question to intimidate California politicians into silence on the critically important issue of illegal aliens. And those politicians are downright scared.
Casey Wian reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): California Latino boycott organizer are no strangers to controversy. They're led by Nativo Lopez's Mexican American political association and include groups such as MEChA, which advocates a Mexico homeland in the American Southwest.
In February, Lopez was recalled as a member of Santa Ana's school board, because parents in the mostly Hispanic city were angered by his staunch advocacy of bilingual education. Now Lopez has found a bigger stage.
LOPEZ: We will tinker with the economy of California, because Mexicans and Latinos constitute 45 percent of the work force. And the day that Latinos are absent from the economy of California, that will send a wakeup call to the Terminator and to his minions of the California Republican assembly that continue the right-wing shift in pursuing anti-immigrant policies.
WIAN: Never mind that the assembly is dominated by Democrats. Politicians of both parties have been remarkably silent on the boycott.
IRA MEHLMAN, FAIR: They don't want to have anything to do with something that they consider controversial. And so they'd rather simply appease a handful of special interests and self-appointed spokesmen for millions of people here in California and really ignore what the majority of Californians believe and feel, that this has nothing to do with race, it has nothing to do with ethnicity, and has everything to do with whether people obey our laws or not.
WIAN: Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger and his recalled predecessor, Gray Davis, have both flip-flopped on illegal alien driver's licenses under pressure from Latino activists.
Davis twice vetoed bills that would have allowed illegal aliens to drive legally, before signing one this year, in an apparent attempt to influence Latino voters during the recall. Schwarzenegger repealed that bill, but refuses to rule out a compromise next year.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
WIAN: That's despite the fact that exit polls taken during the recall election showed 62 percent of California voters were against driver's licenses for illegal aliens -- Lou.
DOBBS: And, Casey, the very point made by a number of these leaders, they are talking about Hispanic organizations, Latino organizations as if Hispanics and Latinos in Southern California were all illegal. This issue is about driver's license for illegal aliens. Are people getting somewhat concerned about the umbrella use of immigrant, when they mean illegal alien?
WIAN: Absolutely. There are a lot of mixed messages being delivered to Californians. And symbolism is very important to these leaders.
We can just take the name of the gentleman who organized the protest. He's known as Nativo Lopez now. He was born Larry Lopez. He changed his name at age 17 to the Spanish word for native. So there's a lot of symbolism, a lot of mixed messages going on throughout this debate -- Lou.
DOBBS: In some quarters, we call that politics, right?
WIAN: Absolutely.
DOBBS: Casey Wian, thank you very much.
Well, we invited Nativo Lopez, president of the American Mexico Political Association, one of the sponsors of today's protests in California, to join us on the broadcast tonight. He refused. His reason: He said he didn't want to appear with me because I use the term illegal alien instead of undocumented worker.
Mr. Lopez also said that, beginning tonight, his organization will boycott any organization that uses the term illegal alien.
America's lack of clear, consistent immigration policy is in sharp contrast to the policies of European countries. Many European countries require every resident to register and to carry a national I.D. card. They are required to carry those cards. And failure to produce cards to police when asked can result in arrest. The commitment to enforcement can be seen in the numbers of officers.
The United States has a couple of hundred officers committed to workplace enforcement, while, in Germany, for example, there are 5,000.
Coming up next: Should illegal aliens be given legal status in this country? I'll be joined by the former attorney general of the state of California, Dan Lungren, who is also running for Congress, and Brent Wilkes, the executive director of the League of United Latin American Citizens.
And "Exporting America," buying Chinese instead of American this holiday season. We're talking about the secretary of the United States Department of Treasury. Peter Viles will have the story.
And expanding the U.S. military. Congressman Duncan Hunter, chairman of the Armed Services Committee, says, enough is enough when it comes to the current strain on our armed forces. Congressman Hunter joins us.
Please stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: As we reported to you at the outset here, groups in California today staged a boycott to protest the repeal of a law that would have allowed illegal aliens to obtain California driver's licenses. Critics say that law would have created a huge security risk.
Joining me now for more on this issue, Dan Lungren, former attorney general of the state of California. He is running for Congress. And Brent Wilkes, the executive director for the League of United Latin American Citizens, this country's largest and older Hispanic organization. They join us tonight from Washington, D.C.
Gentlemen, good to have you with us.
BRENT WILKES, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, LEAGUE OF UNITED LATIN AMERICAN CITIZENS: Thank you.
DAN LUNGREN, FORMER CALIFORNIA ATTORNEY GENERAL: Thank you.
DOBBS: The organization and organizations that put together the protests today, let me ask you this, Mr. Wilkes. The very idea that illegal aliens in this country would be demanding what are privileges for every other American citizen seems confounding, to say the least.
WILKES: Not at all. It's a very practical solution.
Basically, a driver's license is to find out whether someone is fit to drive and to make sure that we license the driving process in a given state. Obviously, we want all drivers in that state to be licensed and to be going through the proper procedures to get a license, including folks who are here that are not documented. So it's a practical solution. It's a safety thing, something that people who ought have their insurance paid for, things of that sort. It's a very practical reason to have it.
And there's people who break laws in California other than undocumented immigrants. All of them have driver's licenses. Why is it this one particular law suddenly becomes a situation where we are going to deny them every single basic right we can think of, including the right to own a driver's license?
DOBBS: Well, what right do they have as illegal aliens in this country, sir?
WILKES: They have all the human rights that we would give
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: Well, it's a human right. It's not a legal right. They certainly should be accorded every human right.
WILKES: Right.
And part of that human right is to be able to support their families, to get good jobs. They have broken one law, which is a misdemeanor law. And, in many cases, they're working to try to rectify that situation. They're helping our economy. They're contributing to our country. They're performing very valuable services. And because of that one misdemeanor that they have broken, we want to take away every single thing that could make their lives easier.
And that just doesn't make sense. It's mean, mean-spirited. And I don't see why we would do that.
DOBBS: Mr. Lungren?
LUNGREN: Lou, we're not taking away single thing that they have, every right they have. We're taking away what is known as a privilege to have driver's license.
In the state of California, I sponsored legislation which was passed by a Democratic legislature, signed by a Republican governor, which will take away a license from someone who is under the drinking age for drinking, not drinking and driving, for drinking. And the idea was that the tremendous incentive of the privilege of driving would be an incentive which would help them to follow the law.
So what we're saying here, as I hear, is that, somehow, we should treat illegal aliens in a preferred position over our own children in our own state. This is not a human right at all.
(CROSSTALK)
LUNGREN: It is a question of a privilege, No. 1.
No. 2, you're creating an incentive for people to not, in fact, honor the law. If we're going to do something about legalizing people in the United States, that ought to be done on a comprehensive basis, if we're even talking about it at all, not do something like this, which further encourages people to break the law.
WILKES: No. 1, if you drink and drive, you're endangering other people's lives.
(CROSSTALK)
LUNGREN: It's not drinking and driving. In California, if you drink under the legal age, one of the penalties that can be imposed is that you lose your license. It is because it is a privilege that we're able to do it.
It is an incentive to try and get people to do the right thing. In this case, we're suggesting we ought to take a group of people, give them a privileged position to break the law and still receive the privilege.
WILKES: If you commit murder in the state of California, you still can have a driver's license. If you commit major felonies, you can still have a driver's license.
The only felony, other than driving dangerously because you're drunk or speeding or something like that, and you lose a license because you're endangering people, the only other crime in the country -- in that state where you will lose your license is if you happen to break a misdemeanor immigration law. That's just wrong. They should not be treated differently than anybody else in California.
(CROSSTALK)
WILKES: They should have the right to drive. And it's a safety issue.
It's not smart to take away people's driver's licenses. That's just bad policy. More people are going to be without licenses on the roads. And they're going to be endangering other people's lives because, if they get into an accident, they're not going to stick around to let the cops come and get them.
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: Mr. Wilkes, let me ask you both this. We heard Nativo Lopez say that 40 percent of the population of California is Hispanic or Latino and that they should be addressing these issues as an ethnic bloc.
Do you believe that the issue of illegal aliens in this country should be addressed on the basis of ethnicity, rather than legality?
WILKES: Only to the extent that the majority population makes an issue of ethnicity.
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: I'm sorry. Could you say that again?
WILKES: Only to the extent the majority population, that is, us white Americans, makes it an issue of ethnicity.
If we want to approach the dialogue honestly and deal with the immigration issue and do what's right for America and what's right for the immigrants, without bringing race into the equation, then I think we should not use ethnic blocs as part of this debate.
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: I'm sorry. I thought that Hispanics in this country were considered white.
WILKES: They are of Hispanic origin, so it is an ethnicity. They can be considered white. It depends on what their preference is.
LUNGREN: Lou, we should not make it a question of ethnicity.
It is a question of whether or not it is fair to create incentives for people to jump in front of the line. There are millions of people, nonwhite, as well as white, around the world waiting in line to come to this country. It takes many, many, years for people from the Philippines to come here, many, many years for people from Africa to come here. And the question is, should we set up a system which encourages people to cut in line in front of millions of others to come here?
They have just as much a right, just as much poverty, just as much concern from other parts of the world. But they don't have the land bridge. The fact of the matter is, we have a significant problem with immigration that is illegal in our country. We have not faced it.
I thought we did in '86, when I was the floor manager of Simpson- Mazzoli bill. We did legalize a good number of people then. But we also put in employer sanctions and said we were going to enforce the law. We failed to enforce the law. And the question now confronting this country is, how do we deal with this big problem in a way that does not create incentives for people to continue to break the law?
DOBBS: Let me say that Mr. Lungren is referring to the amnesty in 1986; 2.5 million to three million illegal aliens at that point were given amnesty, with the hope and the expectation that it would solve the illegal immigration problem in this country.
LUNGREN: But, Lou, more precisely, it was a specific legalization program. It was not a blanket amnesty.
DOBBS: Right.
LUNGREN: You had to show that you had been in this country and had established roots in the country, so as not to attract people to just jump across the border so they would be eligible.
DOBBS: Let me ask you both, we're talking, almost in every instance in this country -- and we were reporting on this issue, as you gentlemen both know, extensively.
One of the remarkable things is that no one knows how many illegal aliens in this country there actually are. Estimates range from eight million to 12 million, as the secretary of homeland security said this week, as we report here every week. The number of illegal aliens in this country, we don't know. We have no force to carry out the enforcement, no agency to carry out the enforcement of our immigration law.
We seem to have no particular qualms about the fact that 700,000, an estimated 700,000 illegal aliens enter this country every year. Isn't it better for our taxpaying citizens, for those illegal aliens, for all of us to have a national dialogue on immigration policy that would be humane, that would be rational and that would be effective, rather than dealing state by state and issue by issue on an ad hoc basis?
Mr. Wilkes?
WILKES: Lou, you're 100 percent correct.
That is exactly what we would like to see, a national dialogue, one that does not bring race or ethnicity into the equation, one that's fair and does the right thing for America and the right thing for the immigrants. And I think, if you did do that, you would find out that we are benefiting from the presence of these undocumented immigrants that are currently here and that they would very much benefit if we were to create a legal process for them to be here.
There's this misperception that you can currently get in line -- if you're a Mexican and you want to come to the United States, all you have to do is get in line and wait your turn. There is no line, folks. There is no line. It's only for certain family categories, where you can even get in that line. And if you don't have the family connection, you can just forget about it. So we have got to do something to address the issue, because it's going to keep happening.
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: Mr. Lungren, we're out of time. Mr. Lungren, you get the last word.
LUNGREN: Lou, we have to address it as a national issue. But we also have to be serious about the fact that there are jobs that are taken by people who are here illegally. We ought to have a guest worker program that we, as a country, control the numbers that come in, where they work, and enforce our laws on the border, which we have not done for at least two or three generations.
DOBBS: Gentlemen, Mr. Wilkes, Mr. Lungren, we thank you both for being here to talk about this very important issue. We hope you'll come back with us soon, as this dialogue will continue on this broadcast, certainly.
(CROSSTALK)
WILKES: Thank you for having us on. Thank you.
DOBBS: We want to hear from you on this very important issue. And our poll question tonight is: Should a national immigration policy include amnesty for illegal aliens living and working in the United States, yes or no? We will have the results later in the broadcast.
Coming up next: "Exporting America" -- tonight, an administration official buying and even defending cheap foreign-made goods while he does his holiday shopping. Peter Viles reports.
And "America Works." Tonight, we celebrate the hard-working people who are the backbone of this country. Tonight, we introduce you to a carpenter who built a business on honesty, family and great American values. Lisa Sylvester will have his story from Derwood, Maryland.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ANNOUNCER: LOU DOBBS TONIGHT continues. Now, "Exporting America."
DOBBS: The United States trade deficit hit another record high this month, as Americans' desire for foreign goods continues to far outweigh this country's exports. The U.S. trade deficit with China hit an all-time high in the month of October, the deficit expected to reach $130 billion this year.
In spite of this alarming trend, a trend that has contributed to the loss of nearly three million American jobs, Treasury Secretary John Snow today went shopping for toys. And buying American apparently was not a priority, nor even necessarily a possibility.
Peter Viles reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
PETER VILES, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): On a day when the trade deficit with China hit another record high, the treasury secretary sent a strange message. With reporters in tow, he went toy shopping and bought Chinese-made toy. In fact, Secretary Snow beamed at just how cheap the toys are this year.
JOHN SNOW, TREASURY SECRETARY: The prices in these stores, I bought 13 items for a total price of about $200. And these are items that would have cost some multiple of that just two, three, four years ago. So the American consumer is getting a terrific, a terrific deal.
VILES: The secretary particularly taken with the Hokey Pokey Elmo toy, made in China.
SNOW: Can't be without one of these.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, no.
VILES: He picked up a pink poodle purse made in China, also a Swan Lake Barbie, made in Indonesia, and this flip-over Darby Dog made in China. Finally, we had to ask him, well, what about toys made in America?
QUESTION: Mr. Secretary, of those 13 items, how many do you think were made in America?
SNOW: I didn't count, but Toys 'R' Us is a global company. And some portion were and some portion probably wasn't, reflecting the global nature of the economy we're in today.
VILES: But with that trade deficit out of control, isn't he concerned that cheap toys from China are part of the problem?
SNOW: Well, I low-cost toys make Santa's life a lot better. Santa's got a lot more to deliver because of low-cost toys.
VILES: You can find toys made in America, but you have to look. This is the Top-no-sis, the world's longest spinning top.
ED RUBIN, TOY INVENTOR: There are no batteries, no motors, no magnets. But there is something interesting which allows it to process energy, energy of the player.
VILES: The toy is made in Upstate New York by its inventory, Ed Rubin.
RUBIN: But if I had it made in Taiwan or some place like that, I probably would spend a fortune on quality control. This is not a simple thing to make.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
VILES: It's also not that simple to play with, I can tell you, Lou.
Other toys we found that are made in America, good old Crayola crayons. They are made in Pennsylvania. And my favorite today, the American edition of the Monopoly game, a special edition, this made in America. You teach your kids about capitalism. No accounting fraud in this game. It's a wonderful example.
DOBBS: Are you sure no accounting fraud? No corporate corruption?
VILES: Only if the kids come up with it independently.
DOBBS: No Wall Street scandals?
And what makes it special edition?
VILES: It has got a special theme, different properties on it. You can find the Washington Monument.
DOBBS: The fact that it's made in America?
VILES: And it is made in America, yes, all parts made in America.
DOBBS: Pete, thank you. That's amazing. The treasury secretary, he just was out there just to boost the retail sales, I guess?
VILES: To speak to the strength in the economy. There are people think it is wonderful that we can buy these cheap Chinese goods. And that is the case that he made today.
DOBBS: It would be nice if we weren't paying, ostensibly, this year about $130 billion in IOUs against our assets to do so.
VILES: Sure. And toys are not a small business, $30 billion- plus at retail in the United States.
DOBBS: And no small cost in jobs.
Peter Viles, thank you.
Well, coming up, we'll be talking about expanding the military. Congressman Duncan Hunter, chairman of the Armed Services Committee, joins us. He says national defense has become a lower priority. It's time defense took its rightful place. Congressman Hunter joins us next. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: The United States expects reimbursement from Halliburton if a Pentagon audit is correct that the Houston oil services company overcharged for a portion of its $15 billion Iraqi reconstruction contract.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I expect anybody doing business with the United States government to be transparent and to give the taxpayers a good return on their money. That's what I expect. And if anybody is overcharging the government, we expect them to repay that money.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: According to the Pentagon, Halliburton's problems may extend beyond overcharging more than $60 million for fuel and other items. That audit is ongoing, Halliburton, of course, formerly headed by Vice President Dick Cheney.
For months now, we have been reporting here that the U.S. armed forces are stretched to the breaking point by the huge stress of fighting two wars simultaneously. Now members of Congress are taking the lead, many lawmakers calling for a big increase in the size of the active-duty military for the first time in 16 years. And they're doing so despite protests from the secretary of the Department of Defense.
Senior Pentagon correspondent Jamie McIntyre has the story -- Jamie.
JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN MILITARY AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Well, Lou, as you've noted, this is an issue that's been building for months.
Every time Defense Secretary Rumsfeld goes to Capitol Hill, he faces sharp questions about why the size of the U.S. military shouldn't be expanded, given the commitments. Now, no one is disputing that the U.S. military is stretched and stressed right now. But again today, in a meeting before some state lawmakers, Rumsfeld insisted that what the U.S. military's experiencing now is a temporary spike.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: Is the force currently stressed? Yes. You don't have a spike of activity and have 130,000, 125,000, whatever it is, folks over in Iraq and not have a stress on the force.
But the total force concept, as you know, was designed for that. It was designed to have an active force, a Guard and a Reserve. And, in a time of crisis, they would be called in and you would spike up in activity and then not stay there over a prolonged period of time.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MCINTYRE: Now, while critics argue that it's self-evident that, if the U.S. Army had a couple of more divisions, maybe as many as three or four more divisions, it would be easier to tackle the tasks facing them right now.
But Rumsfeld insists that the detailed Pentagon analysis that he's seen still doesn't justify any expansion in the force. And, he argues, it would be the most expensive solution and prevent the Pentagon from spending much-needed money to transform the rest of the military -- Lou.
DOBBS: Much more than the $400 billion budget?
MCINTYRE: That's right. Well, he's saying that, if you added those divisions, that would cost a lot of money. And that means they would have to cut other areas where they're trying to spend money to transform the military.
DOBBS: Jamie, thank you very much -- Jamie McIntyre, our senior Pentagon correspondent.
My guest tonight says the size of the active-duty force should be increased significantly, even if it costs tens of billions of dollars.
Joining me now is Congressman Duncan Hunter. He is the chairman of the House Armed Services Committee.
Mr. Chairman, good to have you here.
REP. DUNCAN HUNTER (R), CALIFORNIA: Good to be with you, Lou.
DOBBS: Mr. Chairman, how urgent is it, in your judgment, that we raise the force level?
HUNTER: Well, I think the secretary needs to be commended for the great job he's been doing. He's been doing a good job with what he has.
And it's true that, if you look into the budget in the next year and you add another two divisions, that's $10 billion, you're going to have to take that money from another part of the defense budget. And that might be modernization, the new planes, new helicopters that we need, or other areas. I think we need to raise the top line for defense spending. That means spend more on national defense. And I think we need to do it soon.
DOBBS: How large an Army would you like to see?
HUNTER: Well, I'd like to see -- just to give you a little background, we cut the Army from 18 divisions in 1991 to 10 divisions when Bill Clinton walked out of the White House.
DOBBS: Right.
HUNTER: We also cut the Air Force from 24 air wings to only 13 and the Navy from 546 ships to only 300 ships. So we need to do a little replacing in several of the services.
But I'd like to see the Army with at least two more divisions. Don't take it back up to 18, maybe have one of those divisions dedicated to special operations. That means in-strength increases in the SEALs, the special operators, special forces, the U.S. Army Rangers, and the maybe the other division a heavy division, with lots of airlift.
But there's lots of places where we need to spend money. And if you're constrained by this 3.5 percent of gross national product that we're now spending on defense, that's the $400 billion budget with a little more for next year, you're not going to get there. I think we have to go up to about 4.5 percent of gross national product being dedicated to national defense.
And, once again, we can handle the current situation with what we have. But it's the unexpected. It's insurance against the unexpected that I think we should be looking at right now. And, if we had to fight in Korea, if we had to fight in the Taiwan straits, we have now 19 brigades of our 33 combat brigades committed around the world. It would be very difficult.
DOBBS: Very difficult, and, as you say, raising the budget to -- would be -- you would be talking about raising the budget, the defense budget, by about a third to get that level of GDP. And while that might sound high, it would be still about half the U.S. defense budget 40 years ago.
HUNTER: Exactly.
John Kennedy spent 9 percent of GDP on defense. Ronald Reagan spent 6 percent of GDP on defense. We're spending about 3.5 percent right now. I think it's good insurance to go to about 4 or 4.5 percent. And Secretary Rumsfeld operates with the dollars that he's allotted. I think we need to make a strong case this year to the White House, to the president.
And I've talked to the president a little bit about this already. But I think we need to make the strong case that national security is obviously the linchpin under which all of our other freedoms are allowed to operate. And we have a world -- this new century is a century of terrorists with high technology. And we're going to have some unexpected things happen.
DOBBS: Unexpected. And also implicit in the response strategy of the U.S. military is that there could be a ramp-up period, and that period would be covered by the U.S. Air Force, the Navy, before ground troops could be there. That may, in point of fact, not be the scenario that the U.S. military would encounter.
HUNTER: That's precisely right, Lou.
Lou, if you look at the big conflicts we've been in, in the last century, most of them were unexpected. And they caught the United States in a period when we had to build up our industrial base to respond and we used these great oceans that lay between us and theaters to do that. In this age of missiles and terrorists with high technology, that luxury is no longer available.
DOBBS: The drawdown in force that you mentioned, you did mention President Clinton. I was just going to add to that, if I may, President Bush. He also -- he is the one who actually began the initiation of the drawdown in forces in his presidency. I'm talking about George Bush I, if you will.
HUNTER: That's true. But he took the forces from 18 Army divisions, for example, down to 14 or 15.
There was no reason to continue to cut below that level, down to the 10 Army division. In my estimation -- and I looked at all the analysis -- there was no substantial analysis that justified cutting the Army in half. And that was done under the last administration. Nonetheless, I think we need to come back up a little bit. It's going to cost real money. We need to understand it's important to do it.
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: Are you going to be successful?
HUNTER: I hope so. I think the case is being made.
There's lots of reverberations, I think, from this high-personnel tempo. That's the sergeant that's coming home who's now only seeing his kids once every two or three or four Christmases. And this is a volunteer military. We have to -- these people don't have to join the military. They don't have to do this job. And if we make it so tough that quality of life is degraded, we're not going to see those recruitments meeting the goal.
(CROSSTALK)
HUNTER: And, at that point, you're going to have to pay them a lot more money. You're going to have to come up with a lot more benefits. Part of this is having enough troops.
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: I apologize. We are out of time. I appreciate your being here, Mr. Chairman, and look forward to talking to you soon.
HUNTER: Good to be with you, Lou.
DOBBS: Tonight's thought is on what it takes to win a battle: "Wars may be fought with weapons, but they are won by men" -- General George S. Patton.
Coming up next: putting the squeeze on the middle-class, staggering increases in home prices in this country, staggering increases in the cost of health care and education. The middle class is under siege. Amelia Warren Tyagi is the co-author of "The Two- Income Trap." She joins me next.
And in "America Works" tonight, we celebrate a carpenter who's dedicated to traditional values of hard work and honesty. And Lisa Sylvester has his story.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Now for a look at some of your thoughts on "Broken Borders."
From Collingdale, Pennsylvania: "The solution to the illegal alien problem is this: fine the companies that employ them. Oh, and how about banning them from government contracts for five years? You go after drug users to stop the drug trade. Let's do the same for corporate addiction to cheap labor, with minimal legal recourse against their employers" -- that from Scott Coon.
And from Middletown, New Jersey: "How can Tom Ridge or anyone else even consider making about 10 million illegal aliens citizens just like that? It undermines the whole immigration process. If this should happen now, what happens when more illegal aliens cross the border? Do we make them citizens as well? Where does it stop? Don't just look for a quick, easy solution that's going to cost taxpayers money. Do your job and do it right" -- George Pilieri.
From Lewisburg, West Virginia: "Amnesty for illegal aliens? Why don't we just forget that we have borders, do away with customs, border patrols and the INS? Just think of the money we would save without those agencies" -- Ken Johnson.
From Denver, Colorado: "I just got home and turned on your show. Did I hear correctly? Not only are we talking amnesty, but illegal immigrants should be allowed to keep their benefits even if they're returned to Mexico? I feel like I fell through the looking glass with Alice. This is insane. Why don't we just make Mexico a state and be done with it?" -- Catherine.
And on the bidding for Iraqi contracts, from Dallas-Fort Worth, Texas: "Only those countries who fronted personnel and money should be allowed contracts to rebuild in Iraq. A few countries sacrificed much, including their lives, to free the Iraqi people. How dare those who would not participate then want to benefit from the sacrifice of others? Freedom comes at a high price. Let's not repay those who did not contribute in the crucial time" -- Susan Caver.
From Renton, Washington: "When President Bush says he is rewarding those who put their lives on the line, I wonder if he can name any of the executives from Halliburton or any of the other companies that put their lives on the line. Our soldiers will not benefit from his explanation" --that from Ron McCallie.
And from Hartville, Ohio: "What in the world is happening? I've always thought I was a conservative Republican. And Lou Dobbs often sounds like a liberal Democrat. So why do I consider him must-see TV?"
There's some things we just don't want to overanalyze, Ed. We appreciate it. And we love hearing from you. E-mail us at LouDobbs@CNN.com.
Now a look at companies that we've added to the list of those confirmed by our staff to be exporting America. These are the companies sending American jobs overseas or choosing to employ cheap foreign labor instead of employing American worker. Here are the companies we have confirmed today to be exporting America: Agilent Technologies, Black & Decker, Capital One, Lockheed Martin, SEI Investments -- that's a financial services company based in Oaks, Pennsylvania -- Tyco Electronics, United Technologies.
We're working every day to confirm thousands of e-mails we have received from you, a process that will take here weeks and weeks. But we're committed to do it. Please keep sending us the names of those companies you know to be exporting jobs to cheap foreign labor markets. Send them to us at LouDobbs@CNN.com.
As you know and as we have repeatedly said, no one is keeping track of the number of jobs lost to outsourcing, to exporting overseas to cheap foreign markets. We're trying to build that file here.
A reminder now to vote in our poll. The question: Should a national immigration policy include amnesty for illegal aliens living and working in the United States, yes or no? Cast your vote at CNN.com/Lou. We'll have results for you later in the broadcast.
Coming up next: squeezing out the middle class in this country. A staggering 90 percent of bankruptcies are filed by middle-class families. Amelia Warren Tyagi is the co-author of "The Two-Income Trap." She's our guest next.
Please stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: American families often see no other way to survive than to have both parents work.
But my next guest's best-selling book says the idea is a con. It's left millions in or near bankruptcy, "The Two-Income Trap: Why Middle-Class Mothers and Fathers Are Going Broke." Amelia Warren Tyagi wrote it with her mother, Harvard Law Professor Elizabeth Warren.
Amelia joins us tonight from Los Angeles.
Good to have you here.
AMELIA WARREN TYAGI, CO-AUTHOR, "THE TWO-INCOME TRAP": Thank you. Glad to be here.
DOBBS: The middle class in this country is feeling a terrible squeeze, whether it is taxation, whether it is regulation, whether it is education. Why are so many middle-class families going broke, two parents working, in many cases?
TYAGI: Families are feeling squeezed to pay for the basics, as you said.
At the rate we're going, one in seven middle-class families will be bankrupt by the end of this decade. For most of those families, the strain is around paying for home, child care, preschool, health insurance. It's really about the basics.
DOBBS: Are they just crazy living beyond their means, trying to do too much, too high expectations for a limited budget?
TYAGI: These aren't crazy expectations.
A generation ago, the average family could buy an average house on one income. Today, that isn't possible in two-thirds of American cities. Middle-class families, they want to get their children a good education. They want to keep them healthy and safe. I don't think those are crazy.
DOBBS: Neither do I, Amelia.
And the fact is that they can't even get an education for their children, which was free, is a great trust in this company. At least our middle-class, hard-working families should have their children go off to school, know they'll be safe, be well-educated, and be ready to drive the future of the country. Why not?
TYAGI: A generation ago, you could send your kids to the public school down the street and not worry too much about it. That's just not the way it is for my generation.
And it's coming out in those housing price. Families are bidding up the cost of homes in the neighborhoods with the good school districts. And families are feeling the pinch.
DOBBS: They're feeling the pinch. And, in many cases, their jobs, as we have been reporting here, are simply being lost to foreign competition or outsourced by American companies abroad to cheap labor markets. What is the solution here?
TYAGI: There are things families can do to protect themselves. The fact is, the game has gotten harder. Families need to arm themselves with information so they can play it smarter.
But, at the same time, America needs to look at this from a holistic standpoint. We've got to talk about how do you get more affordable health care, how do we rein in a credit card industry that's been allowed to make up its own rules. And it's, frankly, taken a lot of these families for suckers and taking their money.
DOBBS: And we're driving expectations in the media as well. And we have two parents in many families making a choice that ostensibly is theirs for both parents to have careers.
Is it time for families to have a little talk and say, maybe it's important for one of those parents to choose to take care of those kids, to nurture a future? TYAGI: I think families do have that talk. I don't think parents just leave the kids at home without thought. That's a very difficult decision.
The fact is, a lot of families feel they don't have a choice financially. They're looking at choices between sending mom to work and giving the kids health insurance. Those are no-win choices, any way you look at it.
DOBBS: And, unfortunately, it is, right now, the only way in which to maintain a standard of living for families in this country. And it suggests that we've got resurrect the American dream for that all-important middle class in this country.
Amelia, we thank you very much for being with us.
TYAGI: Thank you.
DOBBS: Coming up next here: "America Works" tonight, our series honoring the Americans who make this country work. Tonight, we introduce you to a man who built a successful business based on what he loves to do, and that is build. Lisa Sylvester will have his story next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Now some interesting results on tonight's poll; 50 percent of you said a national immigration policy should include amnesty for illegal aliens living and working in the United States; 50 percent said it should not.
"America Works" -- tonight, a carpenter who built his passion into a business with three simple rules: Be honest, work hard, and, above all, enjoy it.
Lisa Sylvester has his story.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
PETE GANGINIS, CARPENTER: OK. Perfect.
LISA SYLVESTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Pete Ganginis has built a life out of building things. He started working as a carpenter for his uncle 33 years ago. But his passion for wood began when he was just a kid.
P. GANGINIS: My favorite thing was Lincoln Logs. I don't know if you're familiar with that. I wore mine out. I was constantly playing with them.
SYLVESTER: Now his projects are a lot bigger. Ganginis is remodeling this Maryland home from top to bottom. His job includes teaching younger carpenters, sharing what years of work have taught him, work for what you get, be honest with people, and enjoy what you do for a living. (on camera): Carpenters like Pete say they would not want to exchange places with someone who works behind a desk. They find it very satisfying building something with their hands.
P. GANGINIS: I'm kind of dreading when there will come a point where I can't climb the ladders or the roofs anymore. But it's very joyful to do this.
SYLVESTER (voice-over): Ganginis also enjoys contributing to his community. He and a friend built this gazebo for the neighborhood park where he played growing up. He's always been a family first kind of guy. His wife helps him keep the books. And his company is called Ganginis & Daughters. His 20-year-old daughter may follow him into the business. She is studying to be an architect.
AMANDA GANGINIS, DAUGHTER OF PETE GANGINIS: I just happened to love it. And that was just sort of a coincidence. But, obviously, he had something to do with it.
P. GANGINIS: Family is very important. I work very hard. And it's mainly for the family.
SYLVESTER: As much as Ganginis loves all of the things he's built over the years, his greatest accomplishment is the family he's built.
Lisa Sylvester, CNN, Derwood, Maryland.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: And that concludes our show tonight. We thank you for being with us.
Monday night, please join us for our series of special reports all next week, "Broken Borders." Should the millions of illegal aliens living in this country be given an amnesty? State Senator of California Gil Cedillo will join us to tell us why he sponsored a bill that would give driver's licenses to illegal aliens.
For all of us here, good night from New York City. Have a very pleasant weekend. Good night from New York.
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With China Hits Record High; Should U.S. Military Expand?>
