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Lou Dobbs Tonight

Libya Agrees to Dismantle WMD Program; Government Warns of Terrorism During Holidays; Border Patrol Agent Missing

Aired December 19, 2003 - 18:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT for Friday, December 19. Here now, Lou Dobbs.
LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening.

Tonight, President Bush made a dramatic and unexpected announcement about Libya and its programs to develop weapons of mass destruction. The president said the Libyan leader, Colonel Moammar Gadhafi, has publicly announced he will disclose and dismantle all of his nuclear, biological and chemical weapons programs.

President Bush said the Libyan leader's announcement is of great importance in the global effort to stop the spread of weapons of mass destruction.

We begin tonight our coverage with Suzanne Malveaux -- Suzanne.

SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Lou, this is Really the work of nine months of behind the scenes from the Bush administration with the Libyan government and also with the British government as well to try to come up with this agreement, an agreement that was just announced this evening, first by British Prime Minister Tony Blair and then by President Bush.

Essentially, the administration is sending a very clear message, the president saying that, essentially, it is not worth it to pursue weapons of mass destruction, that they can go ahead and do that, but if they dismantle and give up those programs, weapons programs, that the United States is open to developing relationships, stronger relationships, with those leaders and those countries around the world for a safer United States, a safer country, and a safer world.

Here's the president just moments ago.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Today, in Tripoli, the leader of Libya, Colonel Moammar Gadhafi, publicly confirmed his commitment to disclose and dismantle all weapons of mass destruction programs in his country. He has agreed immediately and unconditionally to allow inspectors from international organizations to enter Libya. These inspectors will render an accounting of all nuclear, chemical, and biological weapons programs and will help oversee their elimination.

(END VIDEO CLIP) MALVEAUX: And, Lou, the president saying this is consistent with the administration's policy in trying to rid the world of weapons of mass destruction.

He talked about the multilateral approach that they're using with North Korea, engaging other countries to put pressure on North Korea to give up its program. He also talked about using the International Atomic Energy Agency in the case of Iran to make sure that Iran is cooperating as well. And then, finally, he mentioned the U.N. resolution when it comes to Iraq, that that was another example of using the world community to put pressure on a country, on a leader to give up weapons of mass destruction, the president believing that this is the best way, the most effective way, is to work with the world community.

And, tonight, the president announcing that, after nine months of quiet talks, that it has paid off -- Wolf -- Lou. Sorry.

DOBBS: That's OK.

Suzanne, you talked about quiet talks. It's quite a contrast to the very loud pronouncements when it comes to North Korea or to Iran. There has been very little notice of these talks going on amongst the United Kingdom, the United States and Libya. Any indication in the last 48 hours that this would be coming?

MALVEAUX: Well, quite frankly, it was a surprise.

But what happened over just the last 20 minutes or so, and how this developed is, two senior administration officials telling me that there was going to be big news coming out of the United Kingdom, that this was news that was going to be made by Prime Minister Blair, and that there would be a follow-up. And we just heard five minutes after that, the president would be making a statement.

We were told that it was going to be about terrorism, that it was not about Osama bin Laden. That was the first question we all asked. But, yes, it was quite a surprise to many of us here that this was even in the works. But nine months of diplomacy seems to have paid off for the administration tonight.

DOBBS: This has been quite a week for the Bush administration, with the capture of Saddam Hussein and now this development today. I suspect there is a considerably positive mood at the White House. Would that be correct, Suzanne?

MALVEAUX: Well, you have got that right, Lou. But, as you know, there's a no-gloating policy here at the White House.

But all of the heavy hitters were here this evening. Dr. Rice, the chief of staff, Andy Card, everyone was here for that briefing just about 20 minutes ago, when the president came out. They set up the podium. The president came out to make that dramatic announcement. As you can imagine, people were having holiday parties and getting ready to go home and then this dramatic news developed.

DOBBS: And I imagine much the same mood at 10 Downing in London.

Thank you very much, Suzanne Malveaux.

National security correspondent David Ensor says the Libyans' weapons programs appear to have been fairly extensive. And he joins us now from Washington with the report -- David.

DAVID ENSOR, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Well, right, Lou.

They were working on a nuclear bomb. They were not there. They were nowhere close. But they worked on it fairly long and hard. We will be learning a lot more about that in the coming days. And there also were programs to develop and we believe they had chemical and biological weapons.

Now, this deal comes after nine months of diplomacy. And we understand that intelligence officers from Britain and the United States have been also heavily involved in this and have met with Libyan representatives, going over exactly what the modes will be, how this would work out, how it would be verified that Libya was, in fact, ready to disarm itself fully and completely.

It's interesting to note that Libya, rather than going, say,to the United Nations or negotiating through some multilateral institution like the International Atomic Energy Agency, has gone to the governments of Britain and the United States and has cut a deal with the two powers itself.

Now, of course, you heard the announcement. President Bush says there are going to be international organization representatives going in to confirm that these weapons are, in fact, dismantled -- Lou.

DOBBS: And, David, this has been -- as Suzanne Malveaux reported, this is a surprise, without question. As a matter of fact, in recent days, there had been considerable concern because Saif al- Islam, Moammar Gadhafi's son and the heir apparent, making rather bellicose, negative statements relating to the United States, the United Kingdom and Mideast policy.

This surprised, I suspect as well, our national security agencies as well.

ENSOR: Well, yes, except that I gather that the CIA officers were in on this, some of them, because they were in on the negotiations, and have been making trips to Tripoli to make sure that this thing would come off as planned.

So a few people were in on the secret. And some of them were intelligence officers. Clearly, it's quite a breakthrough. It's taken a lot of long, hard work. And the proof will be in the pudding. In the past, Libya has talked about wanting to join the civilized world, if you want, one way of putting it. But this is now a very concrete agreement.

Clearly, the president and the prime minister believe that the Libyans are going to go through with it, or I don't think these announcements would have been made tonight -- Lou.

DOBBS: Yes, I think you're quite safe in that assumption.

And what does this portend, in your judgment and those with whom you speak, for the Bush doctrine, if you will, in the Middle East, democratization, the stopping of terrorism altogether, the threat that this entire policy poses to the dictatorships in the region?

ENSOR: Well, it portends a complete change in the approach that the Libyan government takes.

And one may assume that a great many more Westerners are going to go into Tripoli now. There will be a lot more openness there as to what they are and are not up to. Clearly, Gadhafi has made a strategic choice here. But you mentioned democratization. He apparently wants to stay in power and it doesn't look like Libya is going to become a democracy anytime soon.

And we have seen, as you mentioned, that his son is now in public. Some people might think that would suggest that Gadhafi may have ideas of an heir. So, democracy, maybe not, but certainly a lot of positive moves in the offing -- Lou.

DOBBS: And do you know about the reports that have been circulating that Moammar Gadhafi's health has been in decline?

ENSOR: It's been in decline for quite some years now, but he's still there. So I don't have anything new, really, on that, no.

DOBBS: OK, well, a great deal new on the success of the diplomacy on the part of the United Kingdom, the United States, in reaching agreement with the Libyan leader, Moammar Gadhafi, to eliminate the weapons of mass destruction programs within that country.

Let's turn now to Pentagon correspondent Barbara Starr. She joins us now.

Barbara, what are the military implications, first, of this announcement?

BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Well, Lou, here at the Pentagon, always a heavy dose of reality and precaution when any of these types of announcements come.

In terms of the military implications, one of the first things people say here to remember is that Libya, like other countries which have weapons of mass destruction programs, has a scientific expertise. Irrespective of the weapons that they do have or whatever missiles or substances they have, they have a research and development committee. They people who have an expertise on these problems. One of the key questions will be, where are those people? What other countries may they have gone to? What countries may they be helping?

Now, Libya's long-range missiles, that would have been the delivery mechanism, presumably, for any nuclear, chemical or biological weapon. But it's been many years since the U.S. intelligence and military has believed that Libya's long-range missile program is really a practical, workable program. It had largely been theoretical for many years. Libya had not invested in the technical expertise, the engineering and testing that made anybody think their long-range missile program was really an actual, credible threat in a significant way.

Again, that gets back to the question, what about all the scientists that worked on the programs? Now, in terms of their chemical and biological programs, it had largely been believed for many years that the biological program was mainly a research and development program, again, a concern about the scientists. But in the chemical arena, there had been an understanding that Libya may have developed as much as 100 tons of mustard blister-type agent, sarin, chemical weapons.

There were two plants that posed significant concern in recent years to the United States. That was a chemical weapons plant at a place called Robta (ph). It had shut down and become a pharmaceutical plant, according to the Libyans. That's a place the U.S. and the international inspectors are going to want to go to and inspect.

There is another facility called Tarhuna. This came to light several years ago. It was a facility built deep underground in a hillside. At the time, the Libyans claimed that it was so strong, so deep underground, it could withstand an aerial attack, a bombing attack, that plant apparently having gone into mothballs. But it is certainly another major underground facility that international inspectors are going to want to look at.

In terms of their nuclear program, the Libyans had been parties to some international treaties restricting nuclear nonproliferation. But in recent years, it had been well understood that they had approached China, the former Soviet Union, and Pakistan, and that they had worked on a number of programs for civilian nuclear power. So, a lot of concern as well, what nuclear technology and expertise, scientific expertise they may have gained through that effort -- Lou.

DOBBS: And nuclear power in Libya, of course, a country of fewer than six million people, with producing a million and a half barrels of oil a day, raising the same question that the Western countries have about Iran: Why in the world do you need nuclear power?

Barbara Starr, thank you very much, reporting from the Pentagon.

Tonight's announcement, dramatic announcement, about the successful negotiation of an agreement with Libya to set aside its weapons of mass destruction programs comes at a time when homeland security officials in this country are warning Americans to be on alert for possible terrorist attacks during this holiday season.

Today, an audiotape attributed to Osama bin Laden's deputy said that al Qaeda plans to target Americans in their homeland.

Justice correspondent Kelli Arena with that report -- Kelli. KELLI ARENA, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Lou, Homeland Security officials say that there has indeed been an upsurge in intelligence about a possible terror threat as we enter the holiday season. But they caution that there's nothing suggesting that anything is imminent and they have not even determined whether the information is credible.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SCOTT MCCLELLAN, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: We have remained concerned about the volume of reporting of threats. And that is why the Department of Homeland Security has sent out several bulletins over the past few weeks to homeland security officials and law enforcement personnel, urging all to continue to be on a heightened state of alert, especially as we enter the busy holiday season.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ARENA: Now, sources say the intelligence generally points to possible attacks in New York, Washington, D.C., or Los Angeles. But those three cities are often cited by detainees and other intelligence sources as desirable targets.

In fact, New York's police department went so far as to put out a statement today to calm nerves, saying that there is no credible intelligence pointing to an imminent terrorist threat in that city. Now, other intelligence suggests that the U.S. could see possible suicide bombings, like those we see in Israel. And there is persistent information regarding possible attacks on U.S. airports.

Now, as for the nation's threat level, Lou, there's been no decision to raise it. And, interestingly, despite the volume of threat information coming in regarding a possible hit in the United States, the officials that we've spoken to are still more concerned about an attack overseas, especially in Saudi Arabia, Lou.

DOBBS: But, at the same time, heightening consciousness, if you will, about a possible attack here, how does that square up?

ARENA: Well, it's sheer volume, Lou. But we've seen an increase in volume and threat information before. The key here is whether or not it's credible. And so far, they just haven't found that to be the case.

So, while there's a lot of information coming in causing a great deal of concern, because it's what we saw pre-9/11, was the sheer volume had increased and then, all of a sudden, there was a sharp drop-off, they're looking for patterns. The patterns are disturbing. But the credibility of the information is still questionable. And so that's how you square that off.

DOBBS: OK, Kelli Arena, our justice correspondent, thank you, reporting from Washington.

Coming up next: "Broken Borders" tonight. One American hospital has taken a stand against a flood of illegal aliens inundating its facility and returning to their homeland without paying. Lisa Sylvester will report.

And a Border Patrol agent has disappeared. A desperate search is under way. Bill Tucker will have the story.

And the politically correct holiday season. Are the voices of the few drowning out the many in the country who want to celebrate Christmas joyously? We'll hear two very different views on this new P.C. Christmas phenomenon.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: An estimated 700,000 illegal aliens enter this country every year. Many of them cross our border for one principal reason, to be treated in an American hospital. It's a problem that's costing hospitals in border states billions of dollars each year. But one hospital has decided to fight back.

Lisa Sylvester reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

LISA SYLVESTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Every month, foreign nationals from Mexico enter the United States using border crossing cards that allow entry for up to three days for shopping or business travel. But the visa holders are taking advantage of health care in the United States.

GREGORY PIVIROTTO, CEO, UNIVERSITY MEDICAL CENTER: We've had a number of people who come here regularly for their health care, knowing that they can't pay for it. But they come here anyways.

SYLVESTER: The University Medical Center in Tucson, Arizona, is saddled with $6 million to $10 million a year in unpaid bills for treatments ranging from delivering babies to trauma.

By law, the hospital cannot turn away anyone who is in need of emergency services. But what administrators have started to do is to send a letter to immigration authorities when a noncitizen tries to skip out of paying a bill. Critics call the hospital policy shortsighted.

RON POLLACK, FAMILIES USA: If you want a healthier community, you want people to get care at the earliest possible moment. You don't want them to be afraid to go to the hospital.

SYLVESTER: But laser visa applicants sign a form saying they will not incur costs at U.S. taxpayers' expense. As part of the Medicare bill, Congress appropriated $1 billion to hospitals to help pay for uninsured immigrants for the next four years.

But this money is just a drop in the bucket. When you take into account legal and illegal noncitizens who don't intend to leave the United States, the cost skyrockets to $4 to $8 billion a year. STEVE CAMAROTA, CENTER FOR IMMIGRATION STUDIES: What the health care issue really points to is that there is a high cost to cheap labor. Bringing in lots of unskilled workers may look good to employers, but the problem is, is that those employers aren't providing health care, because the value of the labor of those workers is not sufficient to justify it.

SYLVESTER: The University Medical Center says getting money from the federal government helps, but it's really just a Band-Aid, because people will keep coming as long as there are porous borders and health care is so much better in the United States.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SYLVESTER: University Medical Center has several programs in Mexico to help train physicians to improve health care there, so noncitizens won't have to cross the border. But one of these training programs, Lou, has been going on for 18 years and the hospital is still facing the same problem -- Lou.

DOBBS: And the same amount of inaction from our nation's capital on the issue.

Lisa Sylvester, thank you very much.

In our reports on "Broken Borders" over the past several months, we've been able to introduce you to some of the hard-working men and women whose job it is to prevent illegal aliens from entering the country. Border Patrol agents work long and hard hours, often with few resources, little support at what is often a thankless task.

Tonight, there's great concern in Arizona about one of them who is missing. Border Patrol Agent James Epling was last seen earlier this week when he was pursuing a group of aliens who had just crossed the border near Yuma, Arizona.

Bill Tucker is here with the story.

Does the Border Patrol suspect foul play?

BILL TUCKER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, they're being very cautious in their language.

They're saying they see no evidence of foul play. So they're choosing to remain optimistic that, as the search and rescue operations wrap up their fourth day, U.S. Marines are now involved in helping cut down the thick grasses that grow along the banks of the Colorado River. It is on the banks Agent James Epling was last seen, after having saved the life of a woman who was drowning in the river as she attempted to cross illegally into the United States. The Border Patrol vows, it will not give up on finding Epling.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RONALD COLBURN, U.S. CUSTOMS AND BORDER PATROL: We are continuing the search. We are putting all resources available to us into the search. And we will continue with the search.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TUCKER: Agent Epling is 24, his wife eight months pregnant with her fourth child -- Lou.

DOBBS: Well, we wish them, obviously, great success in finding Agent Epling.

Thank you, Bill Tucker.

Coming up next: "A Crowded Nation." Population growth in this country is exploding, due in large part to immigration, legal and illegal. Peter Viles reports.

And "Heroes" -- tonight, an Army reservist struggling to strike a balance between his duty to his country and his responsibilities as a husband and father of 12 children. Casey Wian has his story next.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: The population of the United States is growing at the fastest rate of any industrialized developed nation in the world. The United States is likely to grow to 300 million people within the next four years. Much of that growth is coming from immigration, both legal and illegal.

Peter Viles has the report.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

PETER VILES, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): America's population now growing at almost 8,000 people per day, nearly half of them immigrants, both legal and illegal, those estimates from the Census Bureau, which show the nation's population growing at 1 percent per year.

CARL HAUB, POPULATION REFERENCE BUREAU: We are, without a doubt, the fastest growing industrialized country. Most countries of Europe, for example, are in decline or soon headed that way. At three million population growth per year, the U.S. is literally adding Sweden to its population every 36 months.

VILES: Highlights of the census report, the population grew by 2.8 million people in the year ending last July, now stands at 290.8 million. Allowing for those immigrants who left the country, net immigration, estimated at 1.3 million in the year. In the '90s, the Census Bureau estimated net immigration at 820,000 per year, those estimates now known to be far too low.

Many see the United States as a crowded nation already, noting urban sprawl, traffic problems in countless large cities and believe the nation's population growth is simply too high for a developed country. ROY BECK, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, NUMBERS USA: It's incredibly high for a mature nation. I mean, that's Third World standards. It means we're going to be doubling the population from 290 million to almost 600 million people in the next 70 years.

VILES: States with the highest rate of population growth from immigration, California, immigrants adding eight-tenths of a percentage point in population growth in one year, New York and New Jersey, seven-tenths, Florida, six-tenths of a percentage point growth.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

VILES: And three of those states with the very high immigration rates, California, New York and New Jersey, while immigrants are moving into those states at very fast rates, Americans are actually moving out of those states; 94,000 people moved out of California last year; 170,000 moved out of New York -- Lou.

DOBBS: Those are fascinating statistics, to say the least.

Peter Viles, thank you.

Updating our lists now of companies that we've confirmed to be sending American jobs overseas, choosing to employee foreign labor, instead of American workers, today's additions to "Exporting America": Carrier, CSX, Franklin Mint, Hewitt Associates, a human resources consulting company, Sikorsky, United Online, parent company of NetZero and Juno, Veritas Software, and Yahoo!.

And we will be, of course, updating this list of companies sending American jobs to cheaper foreign labor markets each evening here.

Coming up next: wishing you a politically correct holiday season. A new wave of P.C. everything is swamping Christmas in this country this year. Is it the tyranny of the few? We'll hear from two very different experts about their very different views of the phenomenon.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: Political correctness is taking Christmas out of this holiday season in many parts of the country. Does a Nativity scene or a Christmas tree in a public school violate the constitution? My next guests have different viewpoints on the answer.

Nadine Strossen is the president of the American Civil Liberties Union and says public schools may teach but not preach. And from Phoenix, Arizona tonight, Alan Sears of Alliance Defense Fund says Christmas is one of the clues keeping America together.

Welcome, both of you. Thank you for being here.

Let me start first, 96 percent of us, according to most polls, celebrate Christmas. Why in the world do we care about a program in a public school in which children are singing "White Christmas," "We Wish You A Merry Christmas."

NADINE STROSSEN, PRESIDENT, ACLU: That's actually quite fine, Lou. Under the United States constitution, religious liberty means that government has no business either preferring religion or disfavoring religion.

And that means government certainly may not suppress the 96 percent of Americans who are celebrating Christmas in their own churches or in their own homes. In the public schools, if there's no religious component and we're just talking about, you know, seasonal songs as part of a seasonal celebration that would extend to other holidays as well, that's also absolutely fine.

DOBBS: So what's the problem Alan?

ALAN SEARS, PRESIDENT, ALLIANCE DEFENSE FUND: Let's talk about the ACLU for a moment. They have a different vision for America than 96 percent of the people do and they have created an environment of fear, intimidation and disinformation through their legal campaign that's been waging across America.

STROSSEN: That's not true. That's not true.

SEARS: Today in Plano, Texas, Lou, just about four hours ago, a little boy was wanting to hand out candy canes with a religious message just like the other kids in the class were allowed to hand out their presents with their messages on them and the only one that was censored this afternoon in Plano was the candy canes.

STROSSEN: And that's absolutely wrong and the ACLU has defended exactly the right of kids to do that in another state. Because it is one thing for an individual person including a young person to exercise his own religious freedom, his own freedom of speech. It's completely different if the school gets involved. The school should not be involved in censoring him but it should not be involved in affirmatively supporting a Christian message either.

SEARS: Nadine, as we know in reality, the climate of fear that the ACLU has created in public...

STROSSEN: I think you're the one who's creating a climate of fear, Alan, by distorting what our position is and our position has been upheld by the courts.

SEARS: Literally, Nadine, dozens of lawyers have talked to public officials from our organization in the last weeks. The public officials tell us, all across America, literally from Juno, Alaska to Florida, that they are terrified of lawsuits being filed by the ACLU.

STROSSEN: They should not be. They should take a look at guidelines.

DOBBS: May I interrupt you both?

STROSSEN: Yes.

DOBBS: The point is that a number of schools have been approached by the ACLU, told they cannot have Nativity scenes on their lawns.

STROSSEN: Well, that would absolutely if it were a Nativity scene on public property, namely, a public school with impressionable school children, with no other attendant displays, that's clearly unconstitutional according to a decision written by Supreme Court Justice Sandra Day O'Connor, hardly a flaming radical appointed by Ronald Reagan.

And she said the problem with this kind of unattended Christian display in a public school or indeed in a public square is that it sends a message to certain children that they are outsiders, that they are not part of our community.

DOBBS: What about Santa Claus in the classroom?

STROSSEN: Last time I knew Santa Claus did not have any Christian connotations and is part of what the Supreme Court calls...

DOBBS: St. Nicholas? St. Nicholas? My gosh, I...

STROSSEN: Lou, let me tell you, let me tell you, the Supreme Court's test, concocted by Sandra Day O'Connor, a Ronald Reagan appointee, I think, is a very reasonable and fair one. We certainly support it. Let me tell you, would a reasonable observer looking at this, think that it is an endorsement of religion? I don't think a reasonable observer looking at Santa Claus would say that's an endorsement of religion. I do think looking at a Nativity scene, they'd say it is and it's unconstitutional.

SEARS: Let's speak to the reality about the ACLU's position. First of all, let's talk about what they really believe...

STROSSEN: You're going to tell me what I really believe.

SEARS: This crazy plastic free-wing (UNINTELLIGIBLE) is not what we all ideally believe we should have but that is the current law. It was brought as a result of an ACLU-filed lawsuit not because of anything from people of faith. But let's look at the ACLU'S lawsuits right now.

STROSSEN: Wait a minute. You're a good enough -- Alan, you're a good enough lawyer to know that we cannot bring a lawsuit on our own. We bring it when we have clients who feel that they are suffering a harm that Sandra Day O'Connor said they're protected against under the constitution.

DOBBS: Let me back this off...

SEARS: Here's the point.

STROSSEN: The constitution is not a technicality, I'm sorry. I'm glad it's not a technicality. SEARS: Let me talk, Nadine. I let you have your opportunity. You have a lawsuit the ACLU has brought on behalf of a client in Massachusetts right now where you oppose equal access. A school has allowed people to have a Nativity scene to allow whatever any individual would like to have. Open equal forum for anybody.

The only people who applied were those that wanted to have a Nativity scene and you all have backed a lawsuit challenging the right to equal access. In Iowa, a county courthouse had the same policy. They said anybody can have a public display that wants to for seasonal expression. The only people that happened to ask were Christians for a nativity scene.

STROSSEN: I have no idea what you're talking about. Let me tell you...

SEARS: The ACLU sent a demand letter. I'd be glad to fax into Lou, the copy of your demand letter signed by the ACLU.

STROSSEN: Let me tell you -- what about the lawsuit in Virginia where we defended a woman who calls herself "the lone ranger of the manger" precisely because we were defending her right to display the manger...

SEARS: Nadine, even a stopped clock is right twice a day.

STROSSEN: If what we're talking about is an individual right of religious expression, where everybody has a right to express any views, that is protected free speech. You and I agree on that and the Supreme Court does too even more importantly.

SEARS: Well, Lou, I think what we really need to look at is the real reality of the climate of fear across America. Public officials -- if Nadine would like to join with us in clarifying the law with public officials, it would be great but what Nadine is telling people right now is they will be sued if they even allow equal access...

STROSSEN: We have, Alan, can you please let me make the point I was trying to make earlier?

DOBBS: Let Alan finish.

STROSSEN: No, no, I have to make a really important point about...

DOBBS: OK, Alan, you wait just a moment, we'll let Nadine finish.

STROSSEN: Alan, twice, I've been trying to say this. The ACLU in 1995, together with many civil liberties and religious organizations across the spectrum came together to put together guidelines that we all agreed on on public school religious expression. Everything you talked about is covered by it. We agree on it.

DOBBS: Now I'm going to interrupt, Nadine. Let me ask you both this question. Alan, now I'm interrupting you. I promise you that we will listen to you in just a moment, Alan.

SEARS: All right.

DOBBS: What I do not comprehend is why there is this sudden sensitivity. You use the express "impressionable children." Our culture, our heritage in this country, is fundamentally Christian. It is, I'm sorry...

STROSSEN: Our constitutional heritage certainly is not. It tolerates all religion.

DOBBS: No, no, no, what I said is our heritage, our culture, our history. You don't agree with that?

STROSSEN: No, I think the culture is reflected in our original national motto, E Pluribus Unum, one out of many. That anybody...

DOBBS: E Pluribus Unum wasn't even brought forth. OK, Nadine, may I, may I -- OK, we'll just ignore history, the pilgrims didn't happen. I mean, I don't even know what to say to that.

STROSSEN: And there weren't Jews and there weren't atheists and religious dissenters, among Protestants, Catholics were all welcome to this country?

DOBBS: I am absolutely flabbergasted. If you will not agree that the culture of this country, its history is Christian...

STROSSEN: You're talking about the majority. I'm happy to say for a long part of our history, the majority of the population has been Christian.

DOBBS: So we can agree with that?

STROSSEN: Yes.

DOBBS: Now, let me ask you the next question. Why -- would you say that majority of the people in the country remain Christian?

STROSSEN: I have no idea.

DOBBS: I can tell you quite accurately that they do.

STROSSEN: And I can tell you that we have hundreds of different denominations in this country.

DOBBS: I understand that. I live here, too, Nadine. So does Alan Sears. But my question is, why is it not an impingement upon our culture, our heritage, our history to simply deny a religious symbol to people in a public school or in -- or on a county courthouse lawn.

STROSSEN: Because the place to practice religion is not a government institution...

DOBBS: Says who?

STROSSEN: Says the United States constitution? There shall not be an establishment of religion.

DOBBS: You think that would be establishing religion?

STROSSEN: People are absolutely free to observe religion in their churches, in their homes. The United States Supreme Court has said it. Let me repeat it. Would that be viewed as an endorsement of religion? If you disagree with that test then you're going to have to reject what the majority of conservative justices have agreed upon.

DOBBS: I don't care whether the justice is conservative or liberal. I'd just like them to have -- just once in a while, just a little common sense. Alan, we're going to get you in if I have to be rude to Nadine.

STROSSEN: OK.

SEARS: Lou, the ACLU is the No. 1 religious censor in America. And let's go back and talk about the original intent of the constitution that was written by people primarily of faith, a very expressed faith. When the constitution was adopted, 12 of the 13 colonies that then became states directly subsidized religion.

I'm not suggesting we should be doing that today. When the First Amendment was adopted in 1791, 12 of those 13 states continued with direct support of religion and in 1833, when Joseph Story wrote commentaries on the constitution, the majority of states still provided some kind of financial funding. Let's talk about --

STROSSEN: We have more flourishing religion in this Christianity thanks to the Constitutional freedom.

DOBBS: This is a great country. I think we all agree about that. What I'm having trouble with and a few other folks are, and this comes not from a religious belief, but children singing Christmas carols, surely there is a more important...

Have you heard me object to that? I have not objected to that nor have our clients. If you're talking about a nativity scene that's very different from singing "Jingle Bells" or Christmas carols.

SEARS: In Colorado you wrote a demand letter to one of our clients.

STROSSEN: I read that letter. It was not complaining about Christmas carols.

(CROSSTALK)

SEARS: So you encourage schools to have any Christmas Carol they want to sing in any of their school programs?

STROSSEN: As part of a neutral program.

DOBBS: Oh, for crying out loud.

STROSSEN: As recognizing the holiday season. I'm quoting the Supreme Court's decision.

DOBBS: I don't care what you're quoting.

STROSSEN: We have Kwanza.

DOBBS: Does common sense fit in here anywhere?

STROSSEN: Common sense, I think, is reflected in the notion that religion is not going to flourish if the government can intervene to promote some religions and to discourage other religion.

DOBBS: What are you doing, you have the courts intervening in communities all over the country. That's government.

STROSSEN: In order to preserve the neutrality. That religion precisely because it's so special, belongs in the realm of the individual, the family, the church, other places of worship. It does not belong mixed up with government.

DOBBS: Nadine -- I've got producers screaming at me, Alan. You have been poorly treated on this broadcast. I have not been able, I apologize. I'm going to ask you both to come back.

STROSSEN: Equal access.

DOBBS: And we'll give you equal access. We will find neutrality, but we won't wring the life out of either of your points of views, I promise you that, if you come back. Alan, thank you very much. Nadine, thank you.

SEARS: Thank you. I'd like to ask Nadine to clarify for people across America we can sing Christmas carols.

STROSSEN: Look at our guidelines. They're on our Web site.

DOBBS: Well, we're going to sing them here no matter what. We'll take a lawsuit.

That brings us to the subject of our poll tonight, "Do you believe that Christmas and Santa are part of the American culture and, therefore, should be preserved in our schools and public places? Yes or no." Cast your vote at cnn.com/lou. We'll have the results for you later.

Coming up next, more spirited debate. We hope somewhat less -- no, we don't. We want it to be as spirited. We hope they're every bit as that, the editors of the nation's leading business magazines join us next. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: Now our newsmakers. Steve Forbes of "Forbes" magazine, Rik Kirkland of "Fortune" magazine, Jim Ellis of "Businessweek." Gentlemen, good to have you here.

STEVE FORBES, "FORBES": May I say it, Merry Christmas. DOBBS: Merry Christmas to you, Steve. And to all a good night. Not yet.

Quite remarkable, this is a Christmas where we have heard a number of people, all over the country, talking about, there has been a diminishment of displays of Christmas celebration. It's peculiar.

The ACLU has taken the brunt of the blame. But the fact is, in New York, you've seen less celebration, less decoration. Is it effecting retail sales, do you think?

JIM ELLIS, "BUSINESSWEEK": We still have a war going on. Basically, even though the main fighting has stopped. People are still dying in Iraq. I think it's still sort of a downer. You don't want to celebrate too much. We've seen that in the tenor of corporate parties this year. People are dialing back a little.

DOBBS: They're not backing the executive compensation nearly as much.

This has been incredible, Saddam's capture, now the announcement of at agreement by Moammar Gadhafi to end his weapons programs in direct talks with the UK and the United States. Does it get much better for the president and his administration?

RIK KIRKLAND, "FORTUNE": They may not be gloating, but they've got to be celebrating. It's just been a heck of a week for the president and the administration.

DOBBS: What do you think this is doing for the mood of the country?

KIRKLAND: Can you see it in the polls. His approval rating's popped up. I think people feel better. You can overstate it but shouldn't minimize it. It's a really good thing.

FORBES: One of the things that's come out of the capture of Saddam, amazingly he was carrying around every name of his agents and 500 pages of cells and everything else. It's a number of, huge number of arrests there.

DOBBS: What do you think the impact will be? This administration has taken a very risky, bold tact, talking about democratratization of the Middle East. To change relationships with Saudi Arabia, with states that have been classified as terrorist.

This is three different approaches, six-party talks with North Korea, direct talks in partnership with the UK, with Libya and the coalition, if you will, of the willing in the case of Iraq. This administration is showing remarkable, whether you agree with them or disagree with them, a remarkable flexibility in its approaches.

ELLIS: It's sort of, whatever will work. I think that they realize that with those governments over there, one size doesn't fit all. And I think that they actually are wise in that sense in being able to be flexible enough and not be so doctriniere that they can only have one way to go.

I still, however, don't think we are out of the woods yet, even with the capture of Saddam. It's still a dangerous part of the world and we've got to worry about how can we put a stable government in place there. We don't know yet.

KIRKLAND: We don't know. But one of the big clouds hanging over, talk about upbeat mood, the Iraqi people was the sense that the boogieman was going to come back. That was true if you heard it -- people said we'd hear that from a lot of people. That's now been removed. Now, how do you build real democracy in a place that has never known it, has split religious factions? That is really going to be hard and it doesn't change that, but it helps a lot.

DOBBS: And it doesn't help the Democratic candidates, one of whom, Senator Joe Lieberman, this week said, the motto of my administration will be "Made in America, Sold Abroad." That will create quite a reversal of current trends, won't it, Steve?

FORBES: Joe Lieberman is very active. He's realized that this is his only chance to get the nomination is raise his voice and he's doing it in a number of areas from inside the Democratic party. He had a good week last week, he's trying to do it this week, he's trying to emerge as the anti-Dean.

DOBBS: Well, and Al Gore helped him in this, looking at all of the polls that are breaking here. What do you think we're seeing surface, immigration issues are coming to the fore. The president asked for the first time about immigration issues. Secondly, we have a candidate, Richard Gephardt, now Senator Joe Lieberman making the issue of trade primary.

FORBES: Well, I think in terms of trade, in terms of jobs...

DOBBS: We have to do this quickly, I'm sorry.

FORBES: It's almost too late, because the job recovery started.

KIRKLAND: I think this is more of a reflection of the bad last three years than it is a huge new change in national policy. We'll see.

ELLIS: I mean, definitely, we're seeing the economy perking up now and I think the Republicans realize that this is the time to push it.

DOBBS: Jim Ellis, Rik Kirkland, Steve Forbes, gentlemen, thank you, and happy holidays, Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year.

Coming up next, some of the most memorable, simply unbelievable quote to come out of the war in corporate crime this year. We'll be sharing them with you. Christine Romans will have those for us. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) DOBBS: Our poll results, 75 percent of you say you believe Christmas and Santa Claus are part of our culture, and therefore, should be preserved in schools and public places. Twenty-five percent say no deal.

It's been an extraordinary year in the fight against corporate crime. Christine Romans is here with her list of the very best quotes of the year in scandal.

CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Oh, let's see, mutual funds, self-dealing, fat CEO pay, corruption, cheating. It gave us quotes that range...

DOBBS: What a great year.

ROMANS: ... from the ridiculous to pure comedy. So here, Lou, our list of the best quotes of 2003.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ROMANS (voice-over): In the case of former Tyco CEO Dennis Kozlowski, great quotes and great video. Kozlowski is on trial for looting hundreds of millions in shareholder money for a plush private life. And what about that $2 million birthday party for his wife in Sardinia? Kozlowski says, "It was a nice party, with nice people."

From a pretty party to a pretty penny. That's what the New York Stock Exchange paid Richard Grasso to be its CEO. In September he gave back the princely sum of $48 million, still collecting a pay package of almost $140 million.

RICHARD GRASSO, FORMER CHAIRMAN & CEO, NYSE: You waived $48 million in payments. I'd like to say, look what I've achieved.

ROMANS: Not so fast. Dick Grasso makes our list twice. When asked what he said to the compensation committee when it awarded him millions of dollars every year...

GRASSO: I'm blessed. Thank you.

ROMANS: Some would say mutual fund investors are blessed, now that Attorney General Eliot Spitzer has taken on that industry's self- dealing and high fees.

ELIOT SPITZER, NEW YORK ATTORNEY GENERAL: Every time we turn over a rock in the mutual fund industry these days, we are seeing vermin crawl out that are appalling.

ROMANS: All that corruption, and only three CEOs in jail. One is Sam Waksal, founder of ImClone.

SAM WAKSAL, FORMER CEO, IMCLONE: I deeply regret the mistakes I've made that have brought me here today, and I'm ready to pay for those mistakes.

ROMANS: And just last week from Treasury Secretary John Snow, on whether cheap toys from China are part of America's trade problems.

JOHN SNOW, TREASURY SECRETARY: I think low-cost toys make Santa's life a lot better. You know, Santa's got a lot more to deliver because of low-cost toys.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ROMANS: Lou, an honorable mention goes for best quote of the year to HealthSouth, 15 times because 15 former executives uttered "guilty." I wonder if next year, 2004, will have so many quotes to choose from.

DOBBS: Well, there's every reason to expect that we'll have at least a shot at it. I'd like to hear that a lot more, guilty, guilty, guilty. We'll see. Thank you very much. Nice job.

Coming up next -- heroes. Tonight, one National Guard soldier comes home to resume his responsibilities as husband and father of 12 children. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: In "Heroes" tonight, Army National Guard Specialist Kenneth Weatherspoon has just returned from this tour of duty in Iraq. Now he's struggling to cope with the lingering effects of combat and the strain that it has all placed on his marriage. Casey Wian has the story.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): In January, Kenneth and Jacalyn Weatherspoon's two-year marriage was in trouble. She's an admitted nag, and he has got a quick temper. Between them, they have 12 children. Then, Kenneth's Army National Guard unit was deployed to Iraq. He barely had time to say goodbye.

KENNETH WEATHERSPOON, ARMY NATIONAL GUARD: Well, you meet an old soldier like me, they always know what's going to happen. So my bags was always packed and always ready to go.

WIAN: Specialist Weatherspoon may have been ready, but his wife wasn't.

JACALYN WEATHERSPOON, WIFE: We were arguing at the time, and we were on bad terms. And it all just happened so fast, you know, and then when he got down there, I mean, you know, it was just like an open hole in my heart.

I was in a daze. I just really was. I was just, you know, going day-to-day.

WIAN: Now home in South Bend, Indiana, Weatherspoon reconnects with his family and struggles with the effects of combat. His unit supplied the 3rd Infantry Division with food and water, helicopter and tank parts. The Desert Storm veteran learned firsthand about the changing role of reservists when near Tikrit, his convoy was ambushed by Iraqis firing RPGs and AK-47s.

K. WEATHERSPOON: In reserves, all we do is support, but we supported that day. We fought and we saved, actually we saved the whole convoy.

WIAN: Harder to discuss, the memory of young Iraqis sent out as decoys to trick U.S. troops into stopping and becoming easy targets for older fighters hiding nearby.

K. WEATHERSPOON: Especially when you're going down the road when the kids jump out there, especially when you see one get split in half for jumping out there and when the truck just run him over, we couldn't stop. If we stopped, who would you rather see dead, them or us.

WIAN: For Weatherspoon, the fighting has stopped, but he's in therapy and on medication for panic attacks. He goes days without sleep and has fears being home alone. His family has fears too, like young Alexis in tears because she can't find brother Eddie at school.

ALEXIS WEATHERSPOON, DAUGHTER: I can't find Eddie.

K. WEATHERSPOON: She found him.

J. WEATHERSPOON: Now, I'm still trying to get over him leaving and also his coming back. We're trying to get to know each other all over again, pretty much, and things have changed between both of us, mentally and emotionally. We finally realized, well, I did at any rate, I finally realized, you know, how much he really meant to me after he left.

WIAN: One thing that hasn't changed, Weatherspoon's bags are still packed and he's prepared to return if called.

Casey Wian, CNN.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

DOBBS: Mr. and Mrs. Weatherspoon both heroes.

That's our show for tonight. We thank you for being with us. For all of us here, have a very pleasant weekend. Happy Hanukkah. Good night from New York.

END

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Terrorism During Holidays; Border Patrol Agent Missing>


Aired December 19, 2003 - 18:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT for Friday, December 19. Here now, Lou Dobbs.
LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening.

Tonight, President Bush made a dramatic and unexpected announcement about Libya and its programs to develop weapons of mass destruction. The president said the Libyan leader, Colonel Moammar Gadhafi, has publicly announced he will disclose and dismantle all of his nuclear, biological and chemical weapons programs.

President Bush said the Libyan leader's announcement is of great importance in the global effort to stop the spread of weapons of mass destruction.

We begin tonight our coverage with Suzanne Malveaux -- Suzanne.

SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Lou, this is Really the work of nine months of behind the scenes from the Bush administration with the Libyan government and also with the British government as well to try to come up with this agreement, an agreement that was just announced this evening, first by British Prime Minister Tony Blair and then by President Bush.

Essentially, the administration is sending a very clear message, the president saying that, essentially, it is not worth it to pursue weapons of mass destruction, that they can go ahead and do that, but if they dismantle and give up those programs, weapons programs, that the United States is open to developing relationships, stronger relationships, with those leaders and those countries around the world for a safer United States, a safer country, and a safer world.

Here's the president just moments ago.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Today, in Tripoli, the leader of Libya, Colonel Moammar Gadhafi, publicly confirmed his commitment to disclose and dismantle all weapons of mass destruction programs in his country. He has agreed immediately and unconditionally to allow inspectors from international organizations to enter Libya. These inspectors will render an accounting of all nuclear, chemical, and biological weapons programs and will help oversee their elimination.

(END VIDEO CLIP) MALVEAUX: And, Lou, the president saying this is consistent with the administration's policy in trying to rid the world of weapons of mass destruction.

He talked about the multilateral approach that they're using with North Korea, engaging other countries to put pressure on North Korea to give up its program. He also talked about using the International Atomic Energy Agency in the case of Iran to make sure that Iran is cooperating as well. And then, finally, he mentioned the U.N. resolution when it comes to Iraq, that that was another example of using the world community to put pressure on a country, on a leader to give up weapons of mass destruction, the president believing that this is the best way, the most effective way, is to work with the world community.

And, tonight, the president announcing that, after nine months of quiet talks, that it has paid off -- Wolf -- Lou. Sorry.

DOBBS: That's OK.

Suzanne, you talked about quiet talks. It's quite a contrast to the very loud pronouncements when it comes to North Korea or to Iran. There has been very little notice of these talks going on amongst the United Kingdom, the United States and Libya. Any indication in the last 48 hours that this would be coming?

MALVEAUX: Well, quite frankly, it was a surprise.

But what happened over just the last 20 minutes or so, and how this developed is, two senior administration officials telling me that there was going to be big news coming out of the United Kingdom, that this was news that was going to be made by Prime Minister Blair, and that there would be a follow-up. And we just heard five minutes after that, the president would be making a statement.

We were told that it was going to be about terrorism, that it was not about Osama bin Laden. That was the first question we all asked. But, yes, it was quite a surprise to many of us here that this was even in the works. But nine months of diplomacy seems to have paid off for the administration tonight.

DOBBS: This has been quite a week for the Bush administration, with the capture of Saddam Hussein and now this development today. I suspect there is a considerably positive mood at the White House. Would that be correct, Suzanne?

MALVEAUX: Well, you have got that right, Lou. But, as you know, there's a no-gloating policy here at the White House.

But all of the heavy hitters were here this evening. Dr. Rice, the chief of staff, Andy Card, everyone was here for that briefing just about 20 minutes ago, when the president came out. They set up the podium. The president came out to make that dramatic announcement. As you can imagine, people were having holiday parties and getting ready to go home and then this dramatic news developed.

DOBBS: And I imagine much the same mood at 10 Downing in London.

Thank you very much, Suzanne Malveaux.

National security correspondent David Ensor says the Libyans' weapons programs appear to have been fairly extensive. And he joins us now from Washington with the report -- David.

DAVID ENSOR, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Well, right, Lou.

They were working on a nuclear bomb. They were not there. They were nowhere close. But they worked on it fairly long and hard. We will be learning a lot more about that in the coming days. And there also were programs to develop and we believe they had chemical and biological weapons.

Now, this deal comes after nine months of diplomacy. And we understand that intelligence officers from Britain and the United States have been also heavily involved in this and have met with Libyan representatives, going over exactly what the modes will be, how this would work out, how it would be verified that Libya was, in fact, ready to disarm itself fully and completely.

It's interesting to note that Libya, rather than going, say,to the United Nations or negotiating through some multilateral institution like the International Atomic Energy Agency, has gone to the governments of Britain and the United States and has cut a deal with the two powers itself.

Now, of course, you heard the announcement. President Bush says there are going to be international organization representatives going in to confirm that these weapons are, in fact, dismantled -- Lou.

DOBBS: And, David, this has been -- as Suzanne Malveaux reported, this is a surprise, without question. As a matter of fact, in recent days, there had been considerable concern because Saif al- Islam, Moammar Gadhafi's son and the heir apparent, making rather bellicose, negative statements relating to the United States, the United Kingdom and Mideast policy.

This surprised, I suspect as well, our national security agencies as well.

ENSOR: Well, yes, except that I gather that the CIA officers were in on this, some of them, because they were in on the negotiations, and have been making trips to Tripoli to make sure that this thing would come off as planned.

So a few people were in on the secret. And some of them were intelligence officers. Clearly, it's quite a breakthrough. It's taken a lot of long, hard work. And the proof will be in the pudding. In the past, Libya has talked about wanting to join the civilized world, if you want, one way of putting it. But this is now a very concrete agreement.

Clearly, the president and the prime minister believe that the Libyans are going to go through with it, or I don't think these announcements would have been made tonight -- Lou.

DOBBS: Yes, I think you're quite safe in that assumption.

And what does this portend, in your judgment and those with whom you speak, for the Bush doctrine, if you will, in the Middle East, democratization, the stopping of terrorism altogether, the threat that this entire policy poses to the dictatorships in the region?

ENSOR: Well, it portends a complete change in the approach that the Libyan government takes.

And one may assume that a great many more Westerners are going to go into Tripoli now. There will be a lot more openness there as to what they are and are not up to. Clearly, Gadhafi has made a strategic choice here. But you mentioned democratization. He apparently wants to stay in power and it doesn't look like Libya is going to become a democracy anytime soon.

And we have seen, as you mentioned, that his son is now in public. Some people might think that would suggest that Gadhafi may have ideas of an heir. So, democracy, maybe not, but certainly a lot of positive moves in the offing -- Lou.

DOBBS: And do you know about the reports that have been circulating that Moammar Gadhafi's health has been in decline?

ENSOR: It's been in decline for quite some years now, but he's still there. So I don't have anything new, really, on that, no.

DOBBS: OK, well, a great deal new on the success of the diplomacy on the part of the United Kingdom, the United States, in reaching agreement with the Libyan leader, Moammar Gadhafi, to eliminate the weapons of mass destruction programs within that country.

Let's turn now to Pentagon correspondent Barbara Starr. She joins us now.

Barbara, what are the military implications, first, of this announcement?

BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Well, Lou, here at the Pentagon, always a heavy dose of reality and precaution when any of these types of announcements come.

In terms of the military implications, one of the first things people say here to remember is that Libya, like other countries which have weapons of mass destruction programs, has a scientific expertise. Irrespective of the weapons that they do have or whatever missiles or substances they have, they have a research and development committee. They people who have an expertise on these problems. One of the key questions will be, where are those people? What other countries may they have gone to? What countries may they be helping?

Now, Libya's long-range missiles, that would have been the delivery mechanism, presumably, for any nuclear, chemical or biological weapon. But it's been many years since the U.S. intelligence and military has believed that Libya's long-range missile program is really a practical, workable program. It had largely been theoretical for many years. Libya had not invested in the technical expertise, the engineering and testing that made anybody think their long-range missile program was really an actual, credible threat in a significant way.

Again, that gets back to the question, what about all the scientists that worked on the programs? Now, in terms of their chemical and biological programs, it had largely been believed for many years that the biological program was mainly a research and development program, again, a concern about the scientists. But in the chemical arena, there had been an understanding that Libya may have developed as much as 100 tons of mustard blister-type agent, sarin, chemical weapons.

There were two plants that posed significant concern in recent years to the United States. That was a chemical weapons plant at a place called Robta (ph). It had shut down and become a pharmaceutical plant, according to the Libyans. That's a place the U.S. and the international inspectors are going to want to go to and inspect.

There is another facility called Tarhuna. This came to light several years ago. It was a facility built deep underground in a hillside. At the time, the Libyans claimed that it was so strong, so deep underground, it could withstand an aerial attack, a bombing attack, that plant apparently having gone into mothballs. But it is certainly another major underground facility that international inspectors are going to want to look at.

In terms of their nuclear program, the Libyans had been parties to some international treaties restricting nuclear nonproliferation. But in recent years, it had been well understood that they had approached China, the former Soviet Union, and Pakistan, and that they had worked on a number of programs for civilian nuclear power. So, a lot of concern as well, what nuclear technology and expertise, scientific expertise they may have gained through that effort -- Lou.

DOBBS: And nuclear power in Libya, of course, a country of fewer than six million people, with producing a million and a half barrels of oil a day, raising the same question that the Western countries have about Iran: Why in the world do you need nuclear power?

Barbara Starr, thank you very much, reporting from the Pentagon.

Tonight's announcement, dramatic announcement, about the successful negotiation of an agreement with Libya to set aside its weapons of mass destruction programs comes at a time when homeland security officials in this country are warning Americans to be on alert for possible terrorist attacks during this holiday season.

Today, an audiotape attributed to Osama bin Laden's deputy said that al Qaeda plans to target Americans in their homeland.

Justice correspondent Kelli Arena with that report -- Kelli. KELLI ARENA, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Lou, Homeland Security officials say that there has indeed been an upsurge in intelligence about a possible terror threat as we enter the holiday season. But they caution that there's nothing suggesting that anything is imminent and they have not even determined whether the information is credible.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SCOTT MCCLELLAN, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: We have remained concerned about the volume of reporting of threats. And that is why the Department of Homeland Security has sent out several bulletins over the past few weeks to homeland security officials and law enforcement personnel, urging all to continue to be on a heightened state of alert, especially as we enter the busy holiday season.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ARENA: Now, sources say the intelligence generally points to possible attacks in New York, Washington, D.C., or Los Angeles. But those three cities are often cited by detainees and other intelligence sources as desirable targets.

In fact, New York's police department went so far as to put out a statement today to calm nerves, saying that there is no credible intelligence pointing to an imminent terrorist threat in that city. Now, other intelligence suggests that the U.S. could see possible suicide bombings, like those we see in Israel. And there is persistent information regarding possible attacks on U.S. airports.

Now, as for the nation's threat level, Lou, there's been no decision to raise it. And, interestingly, despite the volume of threat information coming in regarding a possible hit in the United States, the officials that we've spoken to are still more concerned about an attack overseas, especially in Saudi Arabia, Lou.

DOBBS: But, at the same time, heightening consciousness, if you will, about a possible attack here, how does that square up?

ARENA: Well, it's sheer volume, Lou. But we've seen an increase in volume and threat information before. The key here is whether or not it's credible. And so far, they just haven't found that to be the case.

So, while there's a lot of information coming in causing a great deal of concern, because it's what we saw pre-9/11, was the sheer volume had increased and then, all of a sudden, there was a sharp drop-off, they're looking for patterns. The patterns are disturbing. But the credibility of the information is still questionable. And so that's how you square that off.

DOBBS: OK, Kelli Arena, our justice correspondent, thank you, reporting from Washington.

Coming up next: "Broken Borders" tonight. One American hospital has taken a stand against a flood of illegal aliens inundating its facility and returning to their homeland without paying. Lisa Sylvester will report.

And a Border Patrol agent has disappeared. A desperate search is under way. Bill Tucker will have the story.

And the politically correct holiday season. Are the voices of the few drowning out the many in the country who want to celebrate Christmas joyously? We'll hear two very different views on this new P.C. Christmas phenomenon.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: An estimated 700,000 illegal aliens enter this country every year. Many of them cross our border for one principal reason, to be treated in an American hospital. It's a problem that's costing hospitals in border states billions of dollars each year. But one hospital has decided to fight back.

Lisa Sylvester reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

LISA SYLVESTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Every month, foreign nationals from Mexico enter the United States using border crossing cards that allow entry for up to three days for shopping or business travel. But the visa holders are taking advantage of health care in the United States.

GREGORY PIVIROTTO, CEO, UNIVERSITY MEDICAL CENTER: We've had a number of people who come here regularly for their health care, knowing that they can't pay for it. But they come here anyways.

SYLVESTER: The University Medical Center in Tucson, Arizona, is saddled with $6 million to $10 million a year in unpaid bills for treatments ranging from delivering babies to trauma.

By law, the hospital cannot turn away anyone who is in need of emergency services. But what administrators have started to do is to send a letter to immigration authorities when a noncitizen tries to skip out of paying a bill. Critics call the hospital policy shortsighted.

RON POLLACK, FAMILIES USA: If you want a healthier community, you want people to get care at the earliest possible moment. You don't want them to be afraid to go to the hospital.

SYLVESTER: But laser visa applicants sign a form saying they will not incur costs at U.S. taxpayers' expense. As part of the Medicare bill, Congress appropriated $1 billion to hospitals to help pay for uninsured immigrants for the next four years.

But this money is just a drop in the bucket. When you take into account legal and illegal noncitizens who don't intend to leave the United States, the cost skyrockets to $4 to $8 billion a year. STEVE CAMAROTA, CENTER FOR IMMIGRATION STUDIES: What the health care issue really points to is that there is a high cost to cheap labor. Bringing in lots of unskilled workers may look good to employers, but the problem is, is that those employers aren't providing health care, because the value of the labor of those workers is not sufficient to justify it.

SYLVESTER: The University Medical Center says getting money from the federal government helps, but it's really just a Band-Aid, because people will keep coming as long as there are porous borders and health care is so much better in the United States.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SYLVESTER: University Medical Center has several programs in Mexico to help train physicians to improve health care there, so noncitizens won't have to cross the border. But one of these training programs, Lou, has been going on for 18 years and the hospital is still facing the same problem -- Lou.

DOBBS: And the same amount of inaction from our nation's capital on the issue.

Lisa Sylvester, thank you very much.

In our reports on "Broken Borders" over the past several months, we've been able to introduce you to some of the hard-working men and women whose job it is to prevent illegal aliens from entering the country. Border Patrol agents work long and hard hours, often with few resources, little support at what is often a thankless task.

Tonight, there's great concern in Arizona about one of them who is missing. Border Patrol Agent James Epling was last seen earlier this week when he was pursuing a group of aliens who had just crossed the border near Yuma, Arizona.

Bill Tucker is here with the story.

Does the Border Patrol suspect foul play?

BILL TUCKER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, they're being very cautious in their language.

They're saying they see no evidence of foul play. So they're choosing to remain optimistic that, as the search and rescue operations wrap up their fourth day, U.S. Marines are now involved in helping cut down the thick grasses that grow along the banks of the Colorado River. It is on the banks Agent James Epling was last seen, after having saved the life of a woman who was drowning in the river as she attempted to cross illegally into the United States. The Border Patrol vows, it will not give up on finding Epling.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RONALD COLBURN, U.S. CUSTOMS AND BORDER PATROL: We are continuing the search. We are putting all resources available to us into the search. And we will continue with the search.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TUCKER: Agent Epling is 24, his wife eight months pregnant with her fourth child -- Lou.

DOBBS: Well, we wish them, obviously, great success in finding Agent Epling.

Thank you, Bill Tucker.

Coming up next: "A Crowded Nation." Population growth in this country is exploding, due in large part to immigration, legal and illegal. Peter Viles reports.

And "Heroes" -- tonight, an Army reservist struggling to strike a balance between his duty to his country and his responsibilities as a husband and father of 12 children. Casey Wian has his story next.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: The population of the United States is growing at the fastest rate of any industrialized developed nation in the world. The United States is likely to grow to 300 million people within the next four years. Much of that growth is coming from immigration, both legal and illegal.

Peter Viles has the report.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

PETER VILES, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): America's population now growing at almost 8,000 people per day, nearly half of them immigrants, both legal and illegal, those estimates from the Census Bureau, which show the nation's population growing at 1 percent per year.

CARL HAUB, POPULATION REFERENCE BUREAU: We are, without a doubt, the fastest growing industrialized country. Most countries of Europe, for example, are in decline or soon headed that way. At three million population growth per year, the U.S. is literally adding Sweden to its population every 36 months.

VILES: Highlights of the census report, the population grew by 2.8 million people in the year ending last July, now stands at 290.8 million. Allowing for those immigrants who left the country, net immigration, estimated at 1.3 million in the year. In the '90s, the Census Bureau estimated net immigration at 820,000 per year, those estimates now known to be far too low.

Many see the United States as a crowded nation already, noting urban sprawl, traffic problems in countless large cities and believe the nation's population growth is simply too high for a developed country. ROY BECK, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, NUMBERS USA: It's incredibly high for a mature nation. I mean, that's Third World standards. It means we're going to be doubling the population from 290 million to almost 600 million people in the next 70 years.

VILES: States with the highest rate of population growth from immigration, California, immigrants adding eight-tenths of a percentage point in population growth in one year, New York and New Jersey, seven-tenths, Florida, six-tenths of a percentage point growth.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

VILES: And three of those states with the very high immigration rates, California, New York and New Jersey, while immigrants are moving into those states at very fast rates, Americans are actually moving out of those states; 94,000 people moved out of California last year; 170,000 moved out of New York -- Lou.

DOBBS: Those are fascinating statistics, to say the least.

Peter Viles, thank you.

Updating our lists now of companies that we've confirmed to be sending American jobs overseas, choosing to employee foreign labor, instead of American workers, today's additions to "Exporting America": Carrier, CSX, Franklin Mint, Hewitt Associates, a human resources consulting company, Sikorsky, United Online, parent company of NetZero and Juno, Veritas Software, and Yahoo!.

And we will be, of course, updating this list of companies sending American jobs to cheaper foreign labor markets each evening here.

Coming up next: wishing you a politically correct holiday season. A new wave of P.C. everything is swamping Christmas in this country this year. Is it the tyranny of the few? We'll hear from two very different experts about their very different views of the phenomenon.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: Political correctness is taking Christmas out of this holiday season in many parts of the country. Does a Nativity scene or a Christmas tree in a public school violate the constitution? My next guests have different viewpoints on the answer.

Nadine Strossen is the president of the American Civil Liberties Union and says public schools may teach but not preach. And from Phoenix, Arizona tonight, Alan Sears of Alliance Defense Fund says Christmas is one of the clues keeping America together.

Welcome, both of you. Thank you for being here.

Let me start first, 96 percent of us, according to most polls, celebrate Christmas. Why in the world do we care about a program in a public school in which children are singing "White Christmas," "We Wish You A Merry Christmas."

NADINE STROSSEN, PRESIDENT, ACLU: That's actually quite fine, Lou. Under the United States constitution, religious liberty means that government has no business either preferring religion or disfavoring religion.

And that means government certainly may not suppress the 96 percent of Americans who are celebrating Christmas in their own churches or in their own homes. In the public schools, if there's no religious component and we're just talking about, you know, seasonal songs as part of a seasonal celebration that would extend to other holidays as well, that's also absolutely fine.

DOBBS: So what's the problem Alan?

ALAN SEARS, PRESIDENT, ALLIANCE DEFENSE FUND: Let's talk about the ACLU for a moment. They have a different vision for America than 96 percent of the people do and they have created an environment of fear, intimidation and disinformation through their legal campaign that's been waging across America.

STROSSEN: That's not true. That's not true.

SEARS: Today in Plano, Texas, Lou, just about four hours ago, a little boy was wanting to hand out candy canes with a religious message just like the other kids in the class were allowed to hand out their presents with their messages on them and the only one that was censored this afternoon in Plano was the candy canes.

STROSSEN: And that's absolutely wrong and the ACLU has defended exactly the right of kids to do that in another state. Because it is one thing for an individual person including a young person to exercise his own religious freedom, his own freedom of speech. It's completely different if the school gets involved. The school should not be involved in censoring him but it should not be involved in affirmatively supporting a Christian message either.

SEARS: Nadine, as we know in reality, the climate of fear that the ACLU has created in public...

STROSSEN: I think you're the one who's creating a climate of fear, Alan, by distorting what our position is and our position has been upheld by the courts.

SEARS: Literally, Nadine, dozens of lawyers have talked to public officials from our organization in the last weeks. The public officials tell us, all across America, literally from Juno, Alaska to Florida, that they are terrified of lawsuits being filed by the ACLU.

STROSSEN: They should not be. They should take a look at guidelines.

DOBBS: May I interrupt you both?

STROSSEN: Yes.

DOBBS: The point is that a number of schools have been approached by the ACLU, told they cannot have Nativity scenes on their lawns.

STROSSEN: Well, that would absolutely if it were a Nativity scene on public property, namely, a public school with impressionable school children, with no other attendant displays, that's clearly unconstitutional according to a decision written by Supreme Court Justice Sandra Day O'Connor, hardly a flaming radical appointed by Ronald Reagan.

And she said the problem with this kind of unattended Christian display in a public school or indeed in a public square is that it sends a message to certain children that they are outsiders, that they are not part of our community.

DOBBS: What about Santa Claus in the classroom?

STROSSEN: Last time I knew Santa Claus did not have any Christian connotations and is part of what the Supreme Court calls...

DOBBS: St. Nicholas? St. Nicholas? My gosh, I...

STROSSEN: Lou, let me tell you, let me tell you, the Supreme Court's test, concocted by Sandra Day O'Connor, a Ronald Reagan appointee, I think, is a very reasonable and fair one. We certainly support it. Let me tell you, would a reasonable observer looking at this, think that it is an endorsement of religion? I don't think a reasonable observer looking at Santa Claus would say that's an endorsement of religion. I do think looking at a Nativity scene, they'd say it is and it's unconstitutional.

SEARS: Let's speak to the reality about the ACLU's position. First of all, let's talk about what they really believe...

STROSSEN: You're going to tell me what I really believe.

SEARS: This crazy plastic free-wing (UNINTELLIGIBLE) is not what we all ideally believe we should have but that is the current law. It was brought as a result of an ACLU-filed lawsuit not because of anything from people of faith. But let's look at the ACLU'S lawsuits right now.

STROSSEN: Wait a minute. You're a good enough -- Alan, you're a good enough lawyer to know that we cannot bring a lawsuit on our own. We bring it when we have clients who feel that they are suffering a harm that Sandra Day O'Connor said they're protected against under the constitution.

DOBBS: Let me back this off...

SEARS: Here's the point.

STROSSEN: The constitution is not a technicality, I'm sorry. I'm glad it's not a technicality. SEARS: Let me talk, Nadine. I let you have your opportunity. You have a lawsuit the ACLU has brought on behalf of a client in Massachusetts right now where you oppose equal access. A school has allowed people to have a Nativity scene to allow whatever any individual would like to have. Open equal forum for anybody.

The only people who applied were those that wanted to have a Nativity scene and you all have backed a lawsuit challenging the right to equal access. In Iowa, a county courthouse had the same policy. They said anybody can have a public display that wants to for seasonal expression. The only people that happened to ask were Christians for a nativity scene.

STROSSEN: I have no idea what you're talking about. Let me tell you...

SEARS: The ACLU sent a demand letter. I'd be glad to fax into Lou, the copy of your demand letter signed by the ACLU.

STROSSEN: Let me tell you -- what about the lawsuit in Virginia where we defended a woman who calls herself "the lone ranger of the manger" precisely because we were defending her right to display the manger...

SEARS: Nadine, even a stopped clock is right twice a day.

STROSSEN: If what we're talking about is an individual right of religious expression, where everybody has a right to express any views, that is protected free speech. You and I agree on that and the Supreme Court does too even more importantly.

SEARS: Well, Lou, I think what we really need to look at is the real reality of the climate of fear across America. Public officials -- if Nadine would like to join with us in clarifying the law with public officials, it would be great but what Nadine is telling people right now is they will be sued if they even allow equal access...

STROSSEN: We have, Alan, can you please let me make the point I was trying to make earlier?

DOBBS: Let Alan finish.

STROSSEN: No, no, I have to make a really important point about...

DOBBS: OK, Alan, you wait just a moment, we'll let Nadine finish.

STROSSEN: Alan, twice, I've been trying to say this. The ACLU in 1995, together with many civil liberties and religious organizations across the spectrum came together to put together guidelines that we all agreed on on public school religious expression. Everything you talked about is covered by it. We agree on it.

DOBBS: Now I'm going to interrupt, Nadine. Let me ask you both this question. Alan, now I'm interrupting you. I promise you that we will listen to you in just a moment, Alan.

SEARS: All right.

DOBBS: What I do not comprehend is why there is this sudden sensitivity. You use the express "impressionable children." Our culture, our heritage in this country, is fundamentally Christian. It is, I'm sorry...

STROSSEN: Our constitutional heritage certainly is not. It tolerates all religion.

DOBBS: No, no, no, what I said is our heritage, our culture, our history. You don't agree with that?

STROSSEN: No, I think the culture is reflected in our original national motto, E Pluribus Unum, one out of many. That anybody...

DOBBS: E Pluribus Unum wasn't even brought forth. OK, Nadine, may I, may I -- OK, we'll just ignore history, the pilgrims didn't happen. I mean, I don't even know what to say to that.

STROSSEN: And there weren't Jews and there weren't atheists and religious dissenters, among Protestants, Catholics were all welcome to this country?

DOBBS: I am absolutely flabbergasted. If you will not agree that the culture of this country, its history is Christian...

STROSSEN: You're talking about the majority. I'm happy to say for a long part of our history, the majority of the population has been Christian.

DOBBS: So we can agree with that?

STROSSEN: Yes.

DOBBS: Now, let me ask you the next question. Why -- would you say that majority of the people in the country remain Christian?

STROSSEN: I have no idea.

DOBBS: I can tell you quite accurately that they do.

STROSSEN: And I can tell you that we have hundreds of different denominations in this country.

DOBBS: I understand that. I live here, too, Nadine. So does Alan Sears. But my question is, why is it not an impingement upon our culture, our heritage, our history to simply deny a religious symbol to people in a public school or in -- or on a county courthouse lawn.

STROSSEN: Because the place to practice religion is not a government institution...

DOBBS: Says who?

STROSSEN: Says the United States constitution? There shall not be an establishment of religion.

DOBBS: You think that would be establishing religion?

STROSSEN: People are absolutely free to observe religion in their churches, in their homes. The United States Supreme Court has said it. Let me repeat it. Would that be viewed as an endorsement of religion? If you disagree with that test then you're going to have to reject what the majority of conservative justices have agreed upon.

DOBBS: I don't care whether the justice is conservative or liberal. I'd just like them to have -- just once in a while, just a little common sense. Alan, we're going to get you in if I have to be rude to Nadine.

STROSSEN: OK.

SEARS: Lou, the ACLU is the No. 1 religious censor in America. And let's go back and talk about the original intent of the constitution that was written by people primarily of faith, a very expressed faith. When the constitution was adopted, 12 of the 13 colonies that then became states directly subsidized religion.

I'm not suggesting we should be doing that today. When the First Amendment was adopted in 1791, 12 of those 13 states continued with direct support of religion and in 1833, when Joseph Story wrote commentaries on the constitution, the majority of states still provided some kind of financial funding. Let's talk about --

STROSSEN: We have more flourishing religion in this Christianity thanks to the Constitutional freedom.

DOBBS: This is a great country. I think we all agree about that. What I'm having trouble with and a few other folks are, and this comes not from a religious belief, but children singing Christmas carols, surely there is a more important...

Have you heard me object to that? I have not objected to that nor have our clients. If you're talking about a nativity scene that's very different from singing "Jingle Bells" or Christmas carols.

SEARS: In Colorado you wrote a demand letter to one of our clients.

STROSSEN: I read that letter. It was not complaining about Christmas carols.

(CROSSTALK)

SEARS: So you encourage schools to have any Christmas Carol they want to sing in any of their school programs?

STROSSEN: As part of a neutral program.

DOBBS: Oh, for crying out loud.

STROSSEN: As recognizing the holiday season. I'm quoting the Supreme Court's decision.

DOBBS: I don't care what you're quoting.

STROSSEN: We have Kwanza.

DOBBS: Does common sense fit in here anywhere?

STROSSEN: Common sense, I think, is reflected in the notion that religion is not going to flourish if the government can intervene to promote some religions and to discourage other religion.

DOBBS: What are you doing, you have the courts intervening in communities all over the country. That's government.

STROSSEN: In order to preserve the neutrality. That religion precisely because it's so special, belongs in the realm of the individual, the family, the church, other places of worship. It does not belong mixed up with government.

DOBBS: Nadine -- I've got producers screaming at me, Alan. You have been poorly treated on this broadcast. I have not been able, I apologize. I'm going to ask you both to come back.

STROSSEN: Equal access.

DOBBS: And we'll give you equal access. We will find neutrality, but we won't wring the life out of either of your points of views, I promise you that, if you come back. Alan, thank you very much. Nadine, thank you.

SEARS: Thank you. I'd like to ask Nadine to clarify for people across America we can sing Christmas carols.

STROSSEN: Look at our guidelines. They're on our Web site.

DOBBS: Well, we're going to sing them here no matter what. We'll take a lawsuit.

That brings us to the subject of our poll tonight, "Do you believe that Christmas and Santa are part of the American culture and, therefore, should be preserved in our schools and public places? Yes or no." Cast your vote at cnn.com/lou. We'll have the results for you later.

Coming up next, more spirited debate. We hope somewhat less -- no, we don't. We want it to be as spirited. We hope they're every bit as that, the editors of the nation's leading business magazines join us next. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: Now our newsmakers. Steve Forbes of "Forbes" magazine, Rik Kirkland of "Fortune" magazine, Jim Ellis of "Businessweek." Gentlemen, good to have you here.

STEVE FORBES, "FORBES": May I say it, Merry Christmas. DOBBS: Merry Christmas to you, Steve. And to all a good night. Not yet.

Quite remarkable, this is a Christmas where we have heard a number of people, all over the country, talking about, there has been a diminishment of displays of Christmas celebration. It's peculiar.

The ACLU has taken the brunt of the blame. But the fact is, in New York, you've seen less celebration, less decoration. Is it effecting retail sales, do you think?

JIM ELLIS, "BUSINESSWEEK": We still have a war going on. Basically, even though the main fighting has stopped. People are still dying in Iraq. I think it's still sort of a downer. You don't want to celebrate too much. We've seen that in the tenor of corporate parties this year. People are dialing back a little.

DOBBS: They're not backing the executive compensation nearly as much.

This has been incredible, Saddam's capture, now the announcement of at agreement by Moammar Gadhafi to end his weapons programs in direct talks with the UK and the United States. Does it get much better for the president and his administration?

RIK KIRKLAND, "FORTUNE": They may not be gloating, but they've got to be celebrating. It's just been a heck of a week for the president and the administration.

DOBBS: What do you think this is doing for the mood of the country?

KIRKLAND: Can you see it in the polls. His approval rating's popped up. I think people feel better. You can overstate it but shouldn't minimize it. It's a really good thing.

FORBES: One of the things that's come out of the capture of Saddam, amazingly he was carrying around every name of his agents and 500 pages of cells and everything else. It's a number of, huge number of arrests there.

DOBBS: What do you think the impact will be? This administration has taken a very risky, bold tact, talking about democratratization of the Middle East. To change relationships with Saudi Arabia, with states that have been classified as terrorist.

This is three different approaches, six-party talks with North Korea, direct talks in partnership with the UK, with Libya and the coalition, if you will, of the willing in the case of Iraq. This administration is showing remarkable, whether you agree with them or disagree with them, a remarkable flexibility in its approaches.

ELLIS: It's sort of, whatever will work. I think that they realize that with those governments over there, one size doesn't fit all. And I think that they actually are wise in that sense in being able to be flexible enough and not be so doctriniere that they can only have one way to go.

I still, however, don't think we are out of the woods yet, even with the capture of Saddam. It's still a dangerous part of the world and we've got to worry about how can we put a stable government in place there. We don't know yet.

KIRKLAND: We don't know. But one of the big clouds hanging over, talk about upbeat mood, the Iraqi people was the sense that the boogieman was going to come back. That was true if you heard it -- people said we'd hear that from a lot of people. That's now been removed. Now, how do you build real democracy in a place that has never known it, has split religious factions? That is really going to be hard and it doesn't change that, but it helps a lot.

DOBBS: And it doesn't help the Democratic candidates, one of whom, Senator Joe Lieberman, this week said, the motto of my administration will be "Made in America, Sold Abroad." That will create quite a reversal of current trends, won't it, Steve?

FORBES: Joe Lieberman is very active. He's realized that this is his only chance to get the nomination is raise his voice and he's doing it in a number of areas from inside the Democratic party. He had a good week last week, he's trying to do it this week, he's trying to emerge as the anti-Dean.

DOBBS: Well, and Al Gore helped him in this, looking at all of the polls that are breaking here. What do you think we're seeing surface, immigration issues are coming to the fore. The president asked for the first time about immigration issues. Secondly, we have a candidate, Richard Gephardt, now Senator Joe Lieberman making the issue of trade primary.

FORBES: Well, I think in terms of trade, in terms of jobs...

DOBBS: We have to do this quickly, I'm sorry.

FORBES: It's almost too late, because the job recovery started.

KIRKLAND: I think this is more of a reflection of the bad last three years than it is a huge new change in national policy. We'll see.

ELLIS: I mean, definitely, we're seeing the economy perking up now and I think the Republicans realize that this is the time to push it.

DOBBS: Jim Ellis, Rik Kirkland, Steve Forbes, gentlemen, thank you, and happy holidays, Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year.

Coming up next, some of the most memorable, simply unbelievable quote to come out of the war in corporate crime this year. We'll be sharing them with you. Christine Romans will have those for us. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) DOBBS: Our poll results, 75 percent of you say you believe Christmas and Santa Claus are part of our culture, and therefore, should be preserved in schools and public places. Twenty-five percent say no deal.

It's been an extraordinary year in the fight against corporate crime. Christine Romans is here with her list of the very best quotes of the year in scandal.

CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Oh, let's see, mutual funds, self-dealing, fat CEO pay, corruption, cheating. It gave us quotes that range...

DOBBS: What a great year.

ROMANS: ... from the ridiculous to pure comedy. So here, Lou, our list of the best quotes of 2003.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ROMANS (voice-over): In the case of former Tyco CEO Dennis Kozlowski, great quotes and great video. Kozlowski is on trial for looting hundreds of millions in shareholder money for a plush private life. And what about that $2 million birthday party for his wife in Sardinia? Kozlowski says, "It was a nice party, with nice people."

From a pretty party to a pretty penny. That's what the New York Stock Exchange paid Richard Grasso to be its CEO. In September he gave back the princely sum of $48 million, still collecting a pay package of almost $140 million.

RICHARD GRASSO, FORMER CHAIRMAN & CEO, NYSE: You waived $48 million in payments. I'd like to say, look what I've achieved.

ROMANS: Not so fast. Dick Grasso makes our list twice. When asked what he said to the compensation committee when it awarded him millions of dollars every year...

GRASSO: I'm blessed. Thank you.

ROMANS: Some would say mutual fund investors are blessed, now that Attorney General Eliot Spitzer has taken on that industry's self- dealing and high fees.

ELIOT SPITZER, NEW YORK ATTORNEY GENERAL: Every time we turn over a rock in the mutual fund industry these days, we are seeing vermin crawl out that are appalling.

ROMANS: All that corruption, and only three CEOs in jail. One is Sam Waksal, founder of ImClone.

SAM WAKSAL, FORMER CEO, IMCLONE: I deeply regret the mistakes I've made that have brought me here today, and I'm ready to pay for those mistakes.

ROMANS: And just last week from Treasury Secretary John Snow, on whether cheap toys from China are part of America's trade problems.

JOHN SNOW, TREASURY SECRETARY: I think low-cost toys make Santa's life a lot better. You know, Santa's got a lot more to deliver because of low-cost toys.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ROMANS: Lou, an honorable mention goes for best quote of the year to HealthSouth, 15 times because 15 former executives uttered "guilty." I wonder if next year, 2004, will have so many quotes to choose from.

DOBBS: Well, there's every reason to expect that we'll have at least a shot at it. I'd like to hear that a lot more, guilty, guilty, guilty. We'll see. Thank you very much. Nice job.

Coming up next -- heroes. Tonight, one National Guard soldier comes home to resume his responsibilities as husband and father of 12 children. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: In "Heroes" tonight, Army National Guard Specialist Kenneth Weatherspoon has just returned from this tour of duty in Iraq. Now he's struggling to cope with the lingering effects of combat and the strain that it has all placed on his marriage. Casey Wian has the story.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): In January, Kenneth and Jacalyn Weatherspoon's two-year marriage was in trouble. She's an admitted nag, and he has got a quick temper. Between them, they have 12 children. Then, Kenneth's Army National Guard unit was deployed to Iraq. He barely had time to say goodbye.

KENNETH WEATHERSPOON, ARMY NATIONAL GUARD: Well, you meet an old soldier like me, they always know what's going to happen. So my bags was always packed and always ready to go.

WIAN: Specialist Weatherspoon may have been ready, but his wife wasn't.

JACALYN WEATHERSPOON, WIFE: We were arguing at the time, and we were on bad terms. And it all just happened so fast, you know, and then when he got down there, I mean, you know, it was just like an open hole in my heart.

I was in a daze. I just really was. I was just, you know, going day-to-day.

WIAN: Now home in South Bend, Indiana, Weatherspoon reconnects with his family and struggles with the effects of combat. His unit supplied the 3rd Infantry Division with food and water, helicopter and tank parts. The Desert Storm veteran learned firsthand about the changing role of reservists when near Tikrit, his convoy was ambushed by Iraqis firing RPGs and AK-47s.

K. WEATHERSPOON: In reserves, all we do is support, but we supported that day. We fought and we saved, actually we saved the whole convoy.

WIAN: Harder to discuss, the memory of young Iraqis sent out as decoys to trick U.S. troops into stopping and becoming easy targets for older fighters hiding nearby.

K. WEATHERSPOON: Especially when you're going down the road when the kids jump out there, especially when you see one get split in half for jumping out there and when the truck just run him over, we couldn't stop. If we stopped, who would you rather see dead, them or us.

WIAN: For Weatherspoon, the fighting has stopped, but he's in therapy and on medication for panic attacks. He goes days without sleep and has fears being home alone. His family has fears too, like young Alexis in tears because she can't find brother Eddie at school.

ALEXIS WEATHERSPOON, DAUGHTER: I can't find Eddie.

K. WEATHERSPOON: She found him.

J. WEATHERSPOON: Now, I'm still trying to get over him leaving and also his coming back. We're trying to get to know each other all over again, pretty much, and things have changed between both of us, mentally and emotionally. We finally realized, well, I did at any rate, I finally realized, you know, how much he really meant to me after he left.

WIAN: One thing that hasn't changed, Weatherspoon's bags are still packed and he's prepared to return if called.

Casey Wian, CNN.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

DOBBS: Mr. and Mrs. Weatherspoon both heroes.

That's our show for tonight. We thank you for being with us. For all of us here, have a very pleasant weekend. Happy Hanukkah. Good night from New York.

END

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Terrorism During Holidays; Border Patrol Agent Missing>