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Lou Dobbs Tonight

President Bush Pushes For Funding of Religious Charities; Severe Weather Hits Northeast; Growing Anger Over Cheap Foreign Labor

Aired January 15, 2004 - 18:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR: Tonight: President Bush calls on the government to spend more money on religious charities, an initiative some critics say will blur the constitutional separation of church and state.
Record low temperatures in the Northeast. Arctic weather brings extremely dangerous windchills to the Northeast. Officials warn people to stay indoors for their own safety.

"Made in America," growing anger over cheap foreign imports and the exports of American jobs. Some are beginning to fight back.

It may well be the most important film to debut at the Sundance Film Festival. The film is "Farmingville," a hard-hitting documentary about the impact of illegal aliens on one small New York community. Tonight, we talk with the producers of "Farmingville."

And "In America Works," our special report celebrating all who make this country work, we introduce you to an American-born nanny who is proud to have a career looking after other people's children, a career some say American citizens don't want.

ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT for Thursday, January 15. Here now, Lou Dobbs.

DOBBS: Good evening.

The separation of church and state lies at the very heart of our American way of life. President Bush today chose this day, what would have been the 75th birthday of Martin Luther King, to aggressively and at times eloquently urge federal funding of religious charities working to solve some of this country's most serious social problems.

But some critics say the president's advocacy effectively violates the doctrine of the separation of church and state.

Kathleen Koch is traveling with the president tonight and joins me now from the World Congress Center in Atlanta -- Kathleen.

KATHLEEN KOCH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, this is an issue near and dear to President Bush's heart. And he has pushed it since his first week in office, basically making it easier for churches and faith- based groups to get access to federal funds for social services and nonreligious services that they provide within their community.

President Bush today went to New Orleans to a basically black, poor church in a crime-ridden community, the Union Bethel AME Church, to drive the point home. Now, that church gets some federal funds for its successful child care and homelessness prevention programs. And while President Bush this morning insisted that such programs do not blur the line between church and state, the president also insisted that the federal is discriminating against faith-based groups when it insists that they change fundamentally to qualify for the federal dollars.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Faith-based programs are only effective because they do practice faith. And it's important for our government to understand that. Government oftentimes will say, yes, you can participate, but you have got to change your board of directors to meet our qualifications. You have got to conform to our rules. The problem is, faith-based programs only conform to one set of rules. And it's bigger than government rules.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KOCH: The Congress has so far refused to pass President Bush's faith-based initiative, but President Bush has managed to sidestep lawmakers by issuing executive orders and new government regulations. He announced one today.

And that is the Justice Department making available at least for some faith-based programs some $3.7 billion. It would go toward crime victims, safe schools, and preventing child victimization. Again, this not only appeals to religious conservatives, but also to blacks in key states like Georgia, where the president is right now, Louisiana, the president as we speak attending his second fund-raiser of the day -- Lou.

DOBBS: Kathleen, thank you very much -- Kathleen Koch reporting from Atlanta.

At the heart of this debate, of course, is more than two centuries of church-state separation. It is a fundamental principle enshrined in our Constitution.

Joining me now are Jay Sekulow, who is chief counsel of the American Center For Law and Justice, and Barry Lynn, executive director of Americans United for the Separation of Church and State.

Gentlemen, thank you for being here.

(CROSSTALK)

DOBBS: Let me begin with you, Jay.

Do you believe that this goes -- effectively, if it were enacted as the president is advocating, would it go beyond and blur the lines of separation church and state?

JAY SEKULOW, CHIEF COUNSEL, AMERICAN CENTER FOR LAW AND JUSTICE: No, I don't think so.

In fact, I think it is well within what the founding fathers talked about, which is the idea that you would have this benevolent neutrality. And the idea here, of course, what the president is trying to do -- and I think is successfully doing through executive orders, and hopefully Congress will do this as well -- is remove barriers that prevented faith-based groups from participating in these programs.

Why not have as a viable option to meet the needs of a community, especially a community that's in need of social services, of child care, whatever it might be, why not include the faith-based groups within that as a viable alternative? And that's what the president's regulations have done. That's what the Department of Justice has done, and I think clearly well within the boundary of any type of church-state separation issue.

DOBBS: Barry, your response, your answer, effectively, to Jay's question?

BARRY LYNN, EXEC. DIRECTOR, AMERICANS UNITED FOR SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE: Well, frankly, I do think that this president does not understand the notion of church-state separation.

He said today specifically that he wanted to fund programs that would save Americans one soul at a time. I'm sorry, but the United States Constitution does not give to the government or to the president of the United States the authority or the power to promote salvation. That's why we have minister's, priests, rabbis and imams.

We don't need and we could not in our constitutional system have this kind of funding. Now, I do share Jay's view that many communities need more social services. But it's absolutely outrageous for this president to throw a few dollars in the collection plate of a church and ignore the fact that he's also been in his budgets repeatedly cutting the very funds necessary for job training programs, education, and all kinds of other social services. So, I do think it's a little bit hypocritical.

And the other thing, Lou, that is deeply disturbing about this program of the president, particularly on Martin Luther King's birthday, is that it shreds fundamental civil rights protections. That is, it allows churches that get federal moneys to actually discriminate in hiring of the people to run the programs that get the moneys. You could effectively put up a sign, no Jews need apply, and still be eligible for funding under this program.

That's why the Congress has been so reluctant to pass the program. They don't want to turn the clock back on civil rights. They want to move it forward. And today was a tragic day for the president to try to set the clock back, at the same time that he's putting a wreath at the tomb of Martin Luther King.

DOBBS: Jay, your thoughts?

SEKULOW: Yes, well, I'll tell you, Lou, where I really disagree with Barry on this, and fundamentally, I don't think the president is rolling back any civil rights.

In fact, I think what the president is doing here is removing barriers that exist under regulations that have been put in place that are just wrong. They put a barrier, so that religious institutions, in order to provide needs to the community and to obtain funds, had to remove their faith, had to remove who they are, had to hide their cross in a church, had to cover the Star of David, if it was in a synagogue.

And I think that's ridiculous. And what the president has done, through the implementation of the faith-based program, and what these regulations are now doing is enable these religious institutions to maintain their faith, to maintain their practice, and reach the community.

(CROSSTALK)

SEKULOW: Nobody one is compelled to utilize these facilities. No one is required to.

But it should be a viable option. And I think Barry and I both recognize that there is a need for these groups to involve and help the community. Where we disagree, clearly, is on the issue of church- state separation, as we do so many times. And I think the president has got it right here.

LYNN: One of the difficulties in understanding this for many Americans is, they look at Catholic Charities in their communities, Lutheran Social Services, Jewish Federations, and they realize that those organizations, deeply motivated by faith, are in fact getting hundreds of millions of dollars.

So, in fact, there's no discrimination against religiously motivated people or religiously affiliated organizations. The difference is, those organizations play by the rules. They don't try to convert anyone to their religion in the very programs that are receiving the federal tax dollars. And, also, they do agree to abide by the civil rights laws. They are going to high the most competent, most capable person, regardless of his or her religious background.

SEKULOW: But the fact of the matter is, Barry, and where I really think this is an incorrect analysis, is, what the president has done here is said, look, we're going to allow these religious institutions their civil liberties.

That is, to define their doctrines, their mission, to not have to hide their religious faith in delivering these needs to the community. And that's all he's doing. He's removing barriers. In fact, what I think he's doing is supporting the very idea that founders talked about, which is, keep the government out of the internal affairs of the church. Let the government participate and the churches participate equally in obtaining the funds to meet these community needs.

We're not talking about paying for the salary of a pastor. We're talking about buying soup. (CROSSTALK)

DOBBS: Jay, Barry...

LYNN: One second.

One of the other things that people assume that mom-and-pop operations, little ministries on the corner, are going to get the money. Frankly, a lot of the money seems to be going to the political allies of this president. For example, Pat Robertson, of course, who last week declared that the president would win the election in a landslide, actually received a half a million dollars worth of federal funding out of this faith based-initiative.

He's a guy who literally today raised $1 million in a telethon on his own network.

(CROSSTALK)

DOBBS: Excuse me. We're out of time.

Jay, you get the last word, a succinct word, if you will.

SEKULOW: Yes.

Operation Blessing got that money. And that money was designed to reach people in need in local communities. One of the largest social service organizations in the world is Operation Blessing, which Pat Robertson founded.

DOBBS: Jay Sekulow, Barry Lynn, gentlemen, thank you very much for behind here.

SEKULOW: Thanks, Lou.

LYNN: Thank you.

DOBBS: That brings us to the subject of tonight's poll. The question: Do you believe religious groups should be able to receive federal grants, yes or no? Cast your vote at CNN.com/Lou. We, of course, will have the results for you later here.

Still ahead, "Made in America," how some small groups are fighting to keep jobs in this country. We'll have a special report for you.

Cold and dangerous, that's just the weather forecast for the Northeast tonight. We'll have reports from around the region.

And on the campaign trail, a dramatic development in the race for the Democratic presidential nomination. We'll have a live report from Cedar Rapids, Iowa.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: Hundreds of thousands of jobs being exported overseas to cheap labor markets and a record high trade deficit causing many Americans to fight back. They are part of what is a growing movement to support companies that keep their goods and services made in America.

Lisa Sylvester has the story.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

LISA SYLVESTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Fred Tedesco's company, Pa-Ted, makes springs and small mechanical assemblies for larger companies. But in the last three years, he's closed three plants and laid off 48 employees after his biggest customers turned to foreign suppliers. Then he got mad, literally, starting a group called Mad in the USA.

FRED TEDESCO, PA-TED CO.: There's a tremendous number of people, up to maybe 17 million in this country, that are underemployed, that either can't find work or can't find full-time work or have had to take a pay much lower than what they were used to. That's not America.

SYLVESTER: Members of Mad in the USA are threatening to boycott companies, including Wal-Mart, that favor foreign suppliers over domestic ones. Pa-Ted has warned its company's insurance carrier, The Hartford Financial Services, that it will pull $200,000 worth of annual business if the financial firm does not stop outsourcing overseas.

It's just one of the homegrown movements aimed at keeping production and work in America. Out-of-work computer programmers and service workers are also turning up the pressure on Congress, emphasizing how job losses hurt.

JIM SCHOLLAERT, MANUFACTURING & TRADE ACTION COALITION: So they can hit these congressmen back in their districts and their senators back in their states. Large groups of CEOs of these small companies can go in with their mayors, with their education officials, their utility people.

SYLVESTER: Companies that outsources overseas have gone on the defense. The Hartford Financial Services group says: "Outsourcing gives The Hartford greater flexibility to quickly take on new projects, access diverse skills and better control costs. It also enables our employees to use their skills for more strategic projects."

But business owners like Fred Tedesco say, large corporations are missing the point. If Americans can't work for decent wages, they won't be able to afford the products and services the big companies are offering.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SYLVESTER: Some small-business owners are breaking away from large lobbying groups, like the U.S. Chamber of Commerce and the National Association of Manufacturers, because they feel these groups represent corporate interests. But these groups disagree. They say that most of their members are actually small mom-and-pop operations -- Lou.

DOBBS: Lisa, thank you -- Lisa Sylvester reporting from Washington.

Let's take a look at some of your thoughts on the president's proposal to give millions of illegal aliens jobs and legal status, he says, at least, some Americans don't want.

Scott Schuyler of Varna, Illinois: "All of this talk about jobs Americans don't want to do is quite honestly making me sick. We don't need illegal aliens to keep America running. We do need more parents who make their children learn the value of hard work and earning a dollar the right way, not the Enron way."

Rita Nalette of Seattle, Washington: "I'm a female American who lost her job in 2002. I started a cleaning service and, after a year, I'm finally earning enough to support myself. There are no social services available to me. I'm an American doing a job that politicians want to steal from me. Lucky for me, my clients like a hard-working, English-speaking, intelligent professional."

On "Exporting America," Rob in Stamford, Connecticut, said: "I'd like to know how we expect our kids to pay $100,000 on college, only to graduate and compete globally with people making $10 per hour. The math doesn't add up. Our kids will have to go college in India, which only puts more Americans out of work and further depresses wages."

James form Gastonia, North Carolina: "I've been watching your special all week and I have to say that President Bush needs to put the United States on eBay and let any country bid for us, because he's basically selling us down the river."

On the president's ambitious space initiative, Pat Handley of Tulsa, Oklahoma: "The moon? When he can't find any money to cover the uninsured or extend unemployment? How about taking care of the American people and our basic needs?"

Thomas Lawler of Crawfordsville, Indiana: "I support the president's proposal to return to the moon and create a mission to Mars as long as it's only open to American manufacturers. It may be the only thing that saves what's left of American industries."

And Scott White of Odessa, Florida: "It's great to see America investing in the future by initiating a new commitment to the space program. Mars, here we come."

Send us your thoughts at LouDobbs@CNN.com.

Still ahead, deep freeze. The Northeast tonight bracing for one of the coldest nights in years, some places already at record lows.

In "Grange on Point" tonight, a report published by the Army War College that says the war in Iraq was an unnecessary detour. General David Grange will give us his judgment next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: Tonight, the Northeastern United States is in a deep freeze, some of the coldest temperatures in years, plus driving winds creating dangerous conditions from New York to Maine. Tonight, the temperature in New York City is expected to fall to zero. Windchills will take that down to 30 degrees below zero. The low tonight in Boston, eight below zero. That doesn't even count the prospect of a windchill. And Burlington, Vermont, is expected to fall to minus-15.

We have three reports from around the Northeast, beginning with Kathy Curran reporting from affiliate WBZ in Boston.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KATHY CURRAN, WBZ REPORTER (voice-over): If you're looking for ice, we have got plenty of it, just below us. The cold temps and wind are causing a deep freeze from Boston Harbor, all the way to the Fore River in Quincy. That's actually the river that we're hovering above.

The Coast Guard has had cutters out here just trying to break up the ice, doing their job clearing the way for commuter boats and other traffic. We have actually seen a Boston Harbor cruise boat trying to make its way through all of the slush and ice. The Coast Guard tells us there are about six inches of slush and three to four inches of solid ice that they are dealing with out here.

And that is the story high above all of the frozen tundra.

I'm Kathy Curran for CNN.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SHARON MEYER, REPORTER: We had a low this morning of 20 degrees below zero here in Burlington. And up in the northeastern part of the state, we had a few reports of 40 degrees below zero.

Now, to give you an idea of how cold that is, earlier this morning, we took some cups of hot water right from the coffee machine inside, brought it outside and threw that hot water in the air. It freezes before it reaches the ground, just kind of turns into a puff of white ice crystals.

Now, we are expecting it to get bitterly cold again tonight, dropping to between 15, 30, or 35 degrees below zero across the state. And the winds are going to be picking up. So that means our windchills are going to be about 30 to 50 degrees below zero. The good news is, we are expecting the temperatures to struggle above zero tomorrow and then continue to moderate a bit over the weekend.

I'm Sharon Meyer reporting for CNN in Burlington, Vermont.

(END VIDEOTAPE) (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KIRSTEN COLE, WCBS REPORTER: As the sun has gone down here in Manhattan, we now have 10 degrees, and that's nothing compared to what we'll be facing tonight, windchills in the range of 20 to 30 degrees below zero. And we could come close to shattering a 110-year-old record of just one degree tomorrow morning.

New Yorkers have certainly been hunkering down for this one. And the NYPD has stepped up its efforts, making sure they he got the homeless off the streets, along with community outreach groups, so that nobody tries to weather a night out there.

Also, the Hudson River, this is such a rare site to see the airflows clinging along the banks there, thick blocks of ice, as we have just survived two back-to-back cold snaps. And right now, New Yorkers are looking forward to a warmup. The break will come this weekend, when temperatures finally hit the 30s.

I'm Kirsten Cole in New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

DOBBS: And coming up next here, democracy in action in Iraq, of all places, signs of a better way of life in prospect for Iraqis. We'll have a report.

Also, the sharp divide over illegal aliens the subject of an important new film that is featured at this year's Sundance Film Festival. We'll be talking with the directors of what I think is the best documentary produced in years. It's called "Farmingville."

And on the trail, Democratic presidential Howard Dean wins another endorsement and the latest poll shows a tightening race in Iowa. Pollster John Zogby of Zogby International is our guest.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: The past 24 hours in Iraq have been auspicious, noteworthy, no reports of American casualties or deaths over the past 24 hours. A new Iraqi currency was introduced today. And there were large demonstrations by thousands and thousands of Iraqis. And those demonstrations were peaceful.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DOBBS (voice-over): Tens of thousands of people today demonstrated in Basra. They were calling upon Paul Bremer to old early elections. Both the Iraqi demonstrations and the notion of elections are remarkable evidence that Iraqis are beginning to embrace the idea of democracy.

TOM DONNELLY, AMERICAN ENTERPRISE INSTITUTE: I think it's a very good sign. It's a desire on the part of Iraqis to establish their own government, to run their own lives. And, in particular, it's a genuine democratic impulse.

DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: After three decades of brutality and oppression, Iraqis are slowly taking control of their circumstances. Some two dozen Iraqi Cabinet ministers now contribute leadership on a day-to-day basis to the business of the government.

DOBBS: Huge challenges still face the Iraqis and the coalition. But there are important signs of progress.

Today, cell phone service is available and a new Iraqi dinar is in circulation, washed clean of signs of the old regime; 42 of the 55 most-wanted Iraqis have been captured, killed or have turned themselves in. Attacks against coalition forces have declined by 50 percent since November. Weapons, explosives and ammunition have been seized or turned in by the truckload.

Iraqi security force now number more than 200,000, as the newly freed citizens train to provide their own public safety. Great strides have also been made in education. Bill Evers just returned from five months in Iraq, trying to help revive the education system.

BILL EVERS, HOOVER INSTITUTION: Children are going to school with a brighter sense that their achievements, rather than their political fate in the hands of a dictatorship, will shape their future. And so achievement means much more to them than it could in the previous situation.

DOBBS: Nearly six million Iraqi children are now in school and their teachers are being paid at least five times their salary that they received under Saddam Hussein.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

DOBBS: And turning now to "Grange On Point."

A question that goes to the heart of the Pentagon's war strategy: Was the war in Iraq a distraction from the global conflict with al Qaeda and radical Islamist terrorists? That critical question was posed this week by Dr. Jeffrey Record, a visiting professor at the Army War College. Dr. Record said the strain of fighting two wars has pushed the Army almost to the breaking point.

Joining me now, General David Grange.

General, let's start out with the basic question. Was the war a detour?

RETIRED BRIG. GEN. DAVID GRANGE, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: I don't think it was a detour. I think the war was necessary.

Containment was only partially working. You were dealing with a regime that totally ignored U.N. mandates, supported terrorism by giving rewards for suicide bombers. But none of these states work by themselves. They work in partnership with other bad guys. And it was I think inevitable. Now, is it a distraction? Well, you have got to be able to do more than one thing at once. You have to think geometrically. You have to handle several contingencies. You can't take a linear, lockstep pace in this situation.

DOBBS: As you and I have discussed here quite often over the course of this past year, the U.S. military is indeed under tremendous strain. The commitment on the part of our men and women in uniform is remarkable, because of the missions they have. Is it your judgment that more still needs to be done? Do you subscribe or agree with Dr. Record's views about the strain on the military?

GRANGE: I think there's tremendous strain right now, especially on the ground forces, and in particular the Army, because they are carrying the heavy pack on their back in this commitment, especially on security and support operations and the need for boots on the ground around the world. So it is strained.

It's just enough, I think, right now. But the problem is, the challenge is sustainment, sustainment for the long term, to have a strategy where you could continue with operations on homeland defense, Iraq, Afghanistan, and the war against terrorists. That's a long-term commitment.

DOBBS: And it is a daunting commitment, by any standard.

Is it your judgment as we begin this new year that the U.S. military will be successful in a reasonably orderly fashion in both the global war against radical Islamist terror, succeed in Afghanistan and Iraq to the point that casualties will be as light as they possibly could be?

GRANGE: I think that the military will be successful. I have no doubt about that. What you said earlier. It's a magnificent force. It is overstretched, it's overcommitted and the argument about, well, you know, it's a spike right now. We don't need more forces. That may be the case, what if the spike doesn't go down. You have to prepare now for the future. For the next conflict, which is sure to come.

This is not the only thing the United States is going to be involved with. The strategic enemy thinkers, the terrorist groups want a catastrophic event this year. They want to continue the spike for a long term. I believe we have to look at the long term and build the force not only for tomorrow but well into the future.

DOBBS: General David Grange, as always, thank you.

A reminder now to vote in our poll. The question, "do you believe religious groups should be able to receive federal grants? Yes or No." Please vote at CNN.com/lou.

Coming up next. On the trail, a polling surprise and a change in the field of Democratic presidential candidates with only four days before the Iowa caucuses. I'll be joined by John Zogby of Zogby International. We'll be talking about his latest polling on this ever tightening race.

And an outstanding new documentary about the impact of more than a thousand illegal aliens on one American community. The directors and producers of the documentary film "Farmingville" join us.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: Former vice president Al Gore today blasted President Bush's space proposal and called the president a morale coward for ignoring environmental threats. Gore specifically criticized the president's Clear Skies bill and Healthy Forest initiative. Gore said such policies underscore President Bush's goal of satisfying the interest of large corporations in return for campaign contributions. It was, of course, the Clinton/Gore administration that failed to submit the Kyota global warming treaty to the U.S. Senate.

General Wesley Clark today said Congress should determine whether President Bush was criminal by advocating a war against Saddam Hussein. He said the president misled the American public on the issue of Iraq. General Clark, likes to say he has been a consistent opponent of the war in Iraq but the reality appears to be much less clear.

In testimony to Congress in September 2002, as reported by the "Drudge Report," General Clark said if peaceful efforts to resolve the Iraq issue fail the United States should form a coalition to bring force to bear. General Clark also wrote an op-ed article in the "Times of London" in April shortly after the coalition overthrew Saddam Hussein's regime. In that article, General Clark said, "President Bush and Tony Blair should be proud of their resolve in the face of so much doubt."

On the campaign trail tonight, Carol Moseley Braun, the only woman competing for the Democratic presidential nomination dropped out of the race. Braun said she will now support Howard Dean. National correspondent Bob Franken has the report from Cedar Rapids, Iowa.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BOB FRANKEN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): She had little impact on the campaign, but now former Senator Carol Moseley Braun will see what impact she has as a former presidential candidate.

CAROL MOSELEY BRAUN, FORMER DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Howard Dean is a Democrat we can all be proud to support.

FRANKEN: According to sources, Moseley Braun approached Howard Dean after last Sunday night's debate after she had chastised Reverend Al Sharpton for attacking Dean over his minority hiring record.

BRAUN: And the Reverend Sharpton, the fact of the matter is, you can always blow up a racial debate and make people mad at each other.

DEAN: And I'm going to miss you at those debates stepping in and defending me from those outrageous things people say.

FRANKEN: It's difficult to say whether Dean needs Moseley Braun's small band of supporters and difficult to gauge how accurate the polls are that show a virtual dead heat between candidates Dean, Gephardt and notably Kerry.

SEN. JOHN KERRY (D-MA), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I have said all along that I'm always wary of polls, whether I'm up or whether I'm down.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

FRANKEN: And wary he should be, Lou. This is a very volatile situation. One that is hard to define and one that is still being defined with a weekend to go plus Monday for the caucuses.

DOBBS: Bob Franken reporting tonight from, of course, Iowa.

The latest Zogby tracking poll as Bob Franken just reported shows Howard Dean, Senator John Kerry and Dick Gephardt in a dead heat with only four days before the Iowa caucuses. Joining us now to tell us what this latest poll means is the man who runs it, John Zogby himself. Joining us from Utica, New York. John, good to have you here.

JOHN ZOGBY, PRESIDENT/CEO, ZOGBY INTERNATIONAL: Hi, Lou.

DOBBS: The volatility we have seen in your tracking poll and other polls, what does that suggest to us?

ZOGBY: It suggests that it's really a four-way tie. That anyone of these candidates can win, each of them has his own unique strengths and right now voters in Iowa are focusing and what they are saying as they are focusing is they think George W. Bush can be defeated in November and they want to see a candidate who can win, not a candidate who just simply has a message.

DOBBS: Howard Dean for a while, it looked like was the clear frontrunner. What does your polling suggest about his position and what is affecting it right now?

ZOGBY: Very telling questions that we ask at the end of our poll. How likely is it that Howard Dean can defeat President Bush? 31 percent say not likely. We follow that with how likely is it that another candidate in this race can defeat George W. Bush. And 12 percent say not likely.

So the fact is that just at the point where Iowa Democrats think they can win and certainly want to win is now when they're scrutinizing the candidates. In comes John Kerry and John Edwards with a different kind of message. These two candidates had had a difficult time finding a message and a persona that was appealing but now Kerry's message is I've got experience and I can win. And Edwards is, I offer hope and I can win. Let's see if it works.

DOBBS: What does your polling suggest? Are both of those men regarded as more likely than Dean to be able to defeat President Bush come November?

ZOGBY: Well, presumably they are the, quote, "that other candidate." Although I will say, also, that Dick Gephardt is still right around where he normally is in the low to mid 20s. That has not been wavering. Obviously, Gephardt has the best organization on the ground. So any one of these four can win.

DOBBS: What is the hottest issue in this race. What is most important to those who will be voting in the Iowa caucuses?

ZOGBY: I think the economy is no. 1 and then followed by the war. There is agreement on the part of Democrats in opposition to the war. Agreement by about 65 or 70 percent of Iowa caucus voters. But there are some economic concerns, not only farming concerns but Iowans have seen jobs being exported overseas and there is a concern for their immediate future. So employment, really, is the key issue.

DOBBS: How do you, John, assure the accuracy of these polls -- and I know that's a very difficult thing to do -- given that the people you are polling, they are certainly not guaranteed to show up in a caucus in Iowa?

ZOGBY: Absolutely. Voters need to understand that this is a different animal than a primary. We're talking a snapshot and trying to get kind of a picture here. I won't hang my hat on a result and make a prediction. If there is enough in this polling data, a sample of 500 every three days. Margin of error plus or minus 4.5 to suggest to me that the race is a four-way race and that it is too close to call. From there, there are no predictions.

DOBBS: Well, there will be, I'm sure, plenty to fill in the vacuum that you have left there, John Zogby. We appreciate you taking the time.

ZOGBY: Thank you, Lou.

DOBBS: Now tonight's thought from Martin Luther King Jr. On this, which would be his 75th birthday. Quote, "the ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy."

Coming up, "Broken Borders," an extraordinary documentary debuting at this year's Sundance Festival focuses on a controversial issue we've been reporting on for some time now.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ...separate the 2 groups a little bit. You can still each have your press conferences, but ...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You are not separating us or anything. We're American citizens. We're here on our capitol property.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When I need your opinion, I'll ask for it, thank you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

DOBBS: We'll be joined by the directors of the documentary "Farmingville" from Park City, Utah, next. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: A look now at news in brief. The U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention today said the flu vaccine failed to prevent illness during this year's deadly flu season. The unprecedented study showed the vaccine had no or little effect against the flu.

An American Airlines pilot is caught in the middle of a fight between the United States and Brazil over documenting visitors. The pilot was fined nearly $13,000 for making an obscene gesture in a security photograph in Brazil. Americans must now be fingerprinted and photographed when entering Brazil because of similar rules for Brazilians and others who are implemented here. American Airlines, by the way, paid the fine.

NASA's Mars rover Spirit successfully rolled off its lander on to Martian soil early this morn. Spirit will next travel 300 feet to a large crater to search for clues about the red planet's geological past.

That brings us to tonight's quote, "we have six wheels in the dirt. Mars now is our sandbox and we are ready to play and learn." That from Charles Elochi, director of NASA's jet propulsion laboratory.

In just a moment, Christine Romans will have the latest for us on the market. Also still ahead, our celebration of the people who make this country work.

Tonight, the American born nanny who has made a career in a profession some say only illegal aliens would want to fill.

And I'll be talk to the producers of what may be the most important film to debut at the Sundance Film Festival. A hard hitting documentary about the impact of illegal aliens on a small community in New York.

On Wall Street today, stocks held steady. The Dow up 15, the Nasdaq down 2, the S&P up 1.5. Despite the markets flat performance, encouraging news on the economy. Christine Romans is here with that -- Christine.

CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN FINANCIAL CORRESPONDENT: Well a strong earnings report from IBM accounted for all the Dow's gain. And 57 regional banking stocks hit 52 week highs, so there was some excitement there, the real fire works the economic news. The National Association of Manufacturers expects 4 percent economic growth this year.

DOBBS: Did you call that fireworks? ROMANS: Well, I'm getting to it. 250,000 new manufacturing jobs, mostly, Lou, in fabricated metal, electronics and industrial equipment.

Now, look at this, optimism among small business owners running hot, up 3 months in a roe to the highest now since 1983. Meanwhile a survey of Philadelphia area factories hit at least a 10-year high and the Empire Fed Index hit a 2 year high.

All that meant a dollar rally, finally. And the dollar strength stung gold. Gold futures down $13, the cheapest now in a month. And crude oil fell more than 3 percent. Natural gas, heating oil, gasoline prices also cooling off a bit. Many hoping that the bullish fever has broken in the commodities, specifically in the oil prices. At least for now

DOBBS: Well, thanks for bringing those fire works to a conclusion in those economic reports. Thank you Christine. Christine Romans

Well the results now of our poll, 9 percent of you say religious groups should be able to receive federal grants. 91 percent of you will require some convincing, as they say.

Coming up next, we'll be talking with the directors of the documentary "Farmingville," one of the most important documentary films featured at this year's Sundance Film Festival.

And "America Works," the story of a remarkable young college graduate who's proud of her career, even though some say it's a job most Americans don't want.

First, an update on the list of companies our staff has confirmed to be exporting America, U.S. companies sending American jobs overseas or choosing to employ cheap foreign labors instead of American workers. The additions tonight include The Holmes Group, an appliance manufacturer, Medtronic, a medical equipment maker, Well Choice, a healthcare provider.

Please keep sending those names in. And for the complete list log on to CNN.com/lou. We'll be right back. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ANNOUNCER: LOU DOBBS TONIGHT continues. Now American Works.

DOBBS: Tonight, the story of an American born college educated young woman doing a job some say that only illegal aliens would want.

Casey Wian, has her story from Los Angeles.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): She quit college to pursue her dream job as a nanny. Four day as week, 10 hours a day she arrives at the home of entertainment industry executives Matt and Erin Berenson to take care of their 7-month-old son, Leo (ph). It' Robertson's sixth nanny job in 11 years.

WIAN: What do you like about the job.

PAULA ROBERSON, NANNY: The kids. The instant gratification. Every day I come into work and he gives me a big grin.

WIAN: In act, he helped conceive a movie he father produced "Daddy Daycare.

ERIN BERENSON, MOTHER: When I was pregnant it was inspired by Matt sort of imagining what if I was going to stay home with this baby.

WIAN: With both parents working finding a real live nanny for their baby was no joke.

MATT BERENSON, FATHER: We wanted somebody where English was their first language because, you know, communication is so important when it comes to child rearing and nothing is more important to us than Leo and to hire somebody illegally it's more complicated and who wants to risk that.

WIAN: Many families do, because illegal aliens work for less. Roberson earns $800 a week.

ROBERSON: The illegal immigrants you are talking about, most of them, if they make 400 a week they are doing really well. A lot of time with that 400 that will include house cleaning too.

WIAN: Even so she doesn't consider illegal aliens a competitive threat.

ROBERSON: When it comes to being a nanny, I'm going to get sent out to jobs they are not even going to get sent out to just for the mere fact that I'm American, I'm legal, and I speak English.

WIAN: As mom and dad leave for work, it's time for a bottle then a nap then a trip to the park. Roberson thinks about having a family of her own some down, but now happy about being a nanny.

ROBERSON: So no regrets about not becoming a lawyer. I'll be 36 in a couple weeks and I have no intention of changing careers.

WIAN: Clearly, Leo approves.

Casey Wian, CNN, Los Angeles.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

DOBBS: One of the most important documentaries in years in my opinion, explores the subject we've been examining on this broadcast for months. The impact of as many as 12 million illegal aliens in this country on our society. "Farmingville" which is featured at this year's Sundance film festival examines the arrival of more than 1,000 illegal aliens in one small town and tells the story how it leads to deep division in the community, tragedy and conflict. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MARGARET BIANCULLI-DYBER: Have you the contractors, you have the supplies and you have the people willing to profit off the situation. None of that has anything to do with what is right for a community. What is good for the children. What is good for the quality of life in the community. None of that. So why "Farmingville? Here we are. Becoming an activist for me, I didn't even know that's what I was doing, but I knew that over a thousand illegal aliens moving into our community had a very intense and severe impact on our community.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): When I looked, my friend was on the ground. One guy cut me with a knife. I saw the exit. I ran. But I slipped and fell that day. They caught up and attacked me.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Prosecutors say these symbols of hate are tattoos found on this man, 29-year-old Christopher Slaven (ph). Slaven is the second man charged on a vicious attack on two Mexican day labors. 19-year-old Ryan Wagner (ph) of Queens turned himself in three weeks ago. Prosecutors say these tattoos indicate a racist motive and confirmed ties to white supremacist groups.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That was a major turning point because a lot of people of goodwill everywhere was saying this has gone too far, two young people could be attacked just because they were looking for work.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

DOBBS: Joining me now the directors, the producers of the documentary Carlos Sandoval and Catherine Tambini, joining us tonight from the Sundance Film Festival in Park City, Utah.

Let me say to you both, my compliments, it is an absolutely terrific documentary on a complex, difficult subject.

Let me ask you first how I decided to do a documentary on this subject?

CARLOS SANDOVAL, DIRECTOR "FARMINGVILLE": Well, Lou, I think live out in eastern Long Island.

We both do.

Yes, we both do. At that time, I sensed that there were some tensions growing in East Hampton, then the beatings took place. And I felt it was something that needed to be documented. We needed to know what was going on. And understand what was leading up to these tensions.

DOBBS: The remarkable -- many remarkable aspects of this documentary to me is that you managed to introduce to us and allow us to get to know within this film all sides of this dispute. The local government officials, the illegal aliens themselves, the community that is -- that feels so put upon. It is remarkable story telling. There are so many questions I want to ask you but I don't want to spoil the documentary for anyone else who will be watching this great film. But one question I have to ask you is -- well I can't ask that without getting into that. I'm trying not to spoil the movie. Let me ask you this, what is your conclusion after all of your time and the effort you spent with both sides on this issue, do you have a sense of the answers to this critically important issue for our country?

CATHERINE TAMBINI, DIRECTOR, "FARMINGVILLE": Well, Lou, we're film makers. So you know we're not really into policy. We really wanted to chronicle what was going on in the small community where there are issues of this magnitude. And it was important to us to really tell the story from all different sides. So that everyone could stand and everyone else's shoes and say how would I react if I were in this situation?

Would I do what one of the characters did?

So that was one of our major goals was to be as balanced as we could with the film.

DOBBS: And the fact that you can sense the pain of the citizens of Farmingville as they struggle to deal with the sudden onslaught of illegal aliens, an estimated 1,500, you have actually watched through your eyes we are watching them struggle with all the issues. The issues of racism. The issue of economics. The issue of comfort and knowledge of the familiar being totally disrupted. And at the same your film -- and I have got say this, I asked myself, how in the world can any community expect to deal with an issue like this without better national leadership and better local leadership. Did you sense the same thing in the making of the film.

SANDOVAL: Absolutely, Lou. Absolutely. I think Farmingville is a Hamlets and unincorporated Hamlet, so it doesn't have any direct local representation or government. Unfortunate that nobody was there to help the citizens as they started out. And at the federal level, unfortunately the solutions weren't available to them either. So, that sort of lack of local leadership did lead to a vacuum that lead to the tensions that arouse. And as the people and the citizens of Farmingville had to struggle to do.

TAMBINI: They had very legitimate concerns. There are 30 men crowding into houses in residential neighborhoods. They do stand on the street corners looking for work. And the disrupt the lives of the people who are there. So something really needs to be done. On -- as Carlos said, on the local and the national level.

DOBBS: Catherine Tambini, Carlos Sandoval, our congratulations for a stirring documentary. We thank you for sharing your work with us.

SANDOVAL: Thank you, Lou.

TAMBINI: Thank you very much, Lou. We really appreciate it.

DOBBS: Thank you. That's our show for tonight and we thank you for being with us. Tomorrow night on our series of special reports "Made in America," we look at whether it is still possible to buy made in American products in American.

And in our feature series "Heroes," we'll meet an army specialist trying to return to life at home after surviving combat in Iraq. Please join us.

Thanks for being with us tonight. For all us here good night from New York.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com





Severe Weather Hits Northeast; Growing Anger Over Cheap Foreign Labor>


Aired January 15, 2004 - 18:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR: Tonight: President Bush calls on the government to spend more money on religious charities, an initiative some critics say will blur the constitutional separation of church and state.
Record low temperatures in the Northeast. Arctic weather brings extremely dangerous windchills to the Northeast. Officials warn people to stay indoors for their own safety.

"Made in America," growing anger over cheap foreign imports and the exports of American jobs. Some are beginning to fight back.

It may well be the most important film to debut at the Sundance Film Festival. The film is "Farmingville," a hard-hitting documentary about the impact of illegal aliens on one small New York community. Tonight, we talk with the producers of "Farmingville."

And "In America Works," our special report celebrating all who make this country work, we introduce you to an American-born nanny who is proud to have a career looking after other people's children, a career some say American citizens don't want.

ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT for Thursday, January 15. Here now, Lou Dobbs.

DOBBS: Good evening.

The separation of church and state lies at the very heart of our American way of life. President Bush today chose this day, what would have been the 75th birthday of Martin Luther King, to aggressively and at times eloquently urge federal funding of religious charities working to solve some of this country's most serious social problems.

But some critics say the president's advocacy effectively violates the doctrine of the separation of church and state.

Kathleen Koch is traveling with the president tonight and joins me now from the World Congress Center in Atlanta -- Kathleen.

KATHLEEN KOCH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, this is an issue near and dear to President Bush's heart. And he has pushed it since his first week in office, basically making it easier for churches and faith- based groups to get access to federal funds for social services and nonreligious services that they provide within their community.

President Bush today went to New Orleans to a basically black, poor church in a crime-ridden community, the Union Bethel AME Church, to drive the point home. Now, that church gets some federal funds for its successful child care and homelessness prevention programs. And while President Bush this morning insisted that such programs do not blur the line between church and state, the president also insisted that the federal is discriminating against faith-based groups when it insists that they change fundamentally to qualify for the federal dollars.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Faith-based programs are only effective because they do practice faith. And it's important for our government to understand that. Government oftentimes will say, yes, you can participate, but you have got to change your board of directors to meet our qualifications. You have got to conform to our rules. The problem is, faith-based programs only conform to one set of rules. And it's bigger than government rules.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KOCH: The Congress has so far refused to pass President Bush's faith-based initiative, but President Bush has managed to sidestep lawmakers by issuing executive orders and new government regulations. He announced one today.

And that is the Justice Department making available at least for some faith-based programs some $3.7 billion. It would go toward crime victims, safe schools, and preventing child victimization. Again, this not only appeals to religious conservatives, but also to blacks in key states like Georgia, where the president is right now, Louisiana, the president as we speak attending his second fund-raiser of the day -- Lou.

DOBBS: Kathleen, thank you very much -- Kathleen Koch reporting from Atlanta.

At the heart of this debate, of course, is more than two centuries of church-state separation. It is a fundamental principle enshrined in our Constitution.

Joining me now are Jay Sekulow, who is chief counsel of the American Center For Law and Justice, and Barry Lynn, executive director of Americans United for the Separation of Church and State.

Gentlemen, thank you for being here.

(CROSSTALK)

DOBBS: Let me begin with you, Jay.

Do you believe that this goes -- effectively, if it were enacted as the president is advocating, would it go beyond and blur the lines of separation church and state?

JAY SEKULOW, CHIEF COUNSEL, AMERICAN CENTER FOR LAW AND JUSTICE: No, I don't think so.

In fact, I think it is well within what the founding fathers talked about, which is the idea that you would have this benevolent neutrality. And the idea here, of course, what the president is trying to do -- and I think is successfully doing through executive orders, and hopefully Congress will do this as well -- is remove barriers that prevented faith-based groups from participating in these programs.

Why not have as a viable option to meet the needs of a community, especially a community that's in need of social services, of child care, whatever it might be, why not include the faith-based groups within that as a viable alternative? And that's what the president's regulations have done. That's what the Department of Justice has done, and I think clearly well within the boundary of any type of church-state separation issue.

DOBBS: Barry, your response, your answer, effectively, to Jay's question?

BARRY LYNN, EXEC. DIRECTOR, AMERICANS UNITED FOR SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE: Well, frankly, I do think that this president does not understand the notion of church-state separation.

He said today specifically that he wanted to fund programs that would save Americans one soul at a time. I'm sorry, but the United States Constitution does not give to the government or to the president of the United States the authority or the power to promote salvation. That's why we have minister's, priests, rabbis and imams.

We don't need and we could not in our constitutional system have this kind of funding. Now, I do share Jay's view that many communities need more social services. But it's absolutely outrageous for this president to throw a few dollars in the collection plate of a church and ignore the fact that he's also been in his budgets repeatedly cutting the very funds necessary for job training programs, education, and all kinds of other social services. So, I do think it's a little bit hypocritical.

And the other thing, Lou, that is deeply disturbing about this program of the president, particularly on Martin Luther King's birthday, is that it shreds fundamental civil rights protections. That is, it allows churches that get federal moneys to actually discriminate in hiring of the people to run the programs that get the moneys. You could effectively put up a sign, no Jews need apply, and still be eligible for funding under this program.

That's why the Congress has been so reluctant to pass the program. They don't want to turn the clock back on civil rights. They want to move it forward. And today was a tragic day for the president to try to set the clock back, at the same time that he's putting a wreath at the tomb of Martin Luther King.

DOBBS: Jay, your thoughts?

SEKULOW: Yes, well, I'll tell you, Lou, where I really disagree with Barry on this, and fundamentally, I don't think the president is rolling back any civil rights.

In fact, I think what the president is doing here is removing barriers that exist under regulations that have been put in place that are just wrong. They put a barrier, so that religious institutions, in order to provide needs to the community and to obtain funds, had to remove their faith, had to remove who they are, had to hide their cross in a church, had to cover the Star of David, if it was in a synagogue.

And I think that's ridiculous. And what the president has done, through the implementation of the faith-based program, and what these regulations are now doing is enable these religious institutions to maintain their faith, to maintain their practice, and reach the community.

(CROSSTALK)

SEKULOW: Nobody one is compelled to utilize these facilities. No one is required to.

But it should be a viable option. And I think Barry and I both recognize that there is a need for these groups to involve and help the community. Where we disagree, clearly, is on the issue of church- state separation, as we do so many times. And I think the president has got it right here.

LYNN: One of the difficulties in understanding this for many Americans is, they look at Catholic Charities in their communities, Lutheran Social Services, Jewish Federations, and they realize that those organizations, deeply motivated by faith, are in fact getting hundreds of millions of dollars.

So, in fact, there's no discrimination against religiously motivated people or religiously affiliated organizations. The difference is, those organizations play by the rules. They don't try to convert anyone to their religion in the very programs that are receiving the federal tax dollars. And, also, they do agree to abide by the civil rights laws. They are going to high the most competent, most capable person, regardless of his or her religious background.

SEKULOW: But the fact of the matter is, Barry, and where I really think this is an incorrect analysis, is, what the president has done here is said, look, we're going to allow these religious institutions their civil liberties.

That is, to define their doctrines, their mission, to not have to hide their religious faith in delivering these needs to the community. And that's all he's doing. He's removing barriers. In fact, what I think he's doing is supporting the very idea that founders talked about, which is, keep the government out of the internal affairs of the church. Let the government participate and the churches participate equally in obtaining the funds to meet these community needs.

We're not talking about paying for the salary of a pastor. We're talking about buying soup. (CROSSTALK)

DOBBS: Jay, Barry...

LYNN: One second.

One of the other things that people assume that mom-and-pop operations, little ministries on the corner, are going to get the money. Frankly, a lot of the money seems to be going to the political allies of this president. For example, Pat Robertson, of course, who last week declared that the president would win the election in a landslide, actually received a half a million dollars worth of federal funding out of this faith based-initiative.

He's a guy who literally today raised $1 million in a telethon on his own network.

(CROSSTALK)

DOBBS: Excuse me. We're out of time.

Jay, you get the last word, a succinct word, if you will.

SEKULOW: Yes.

Operation Blessing got that money. And that money was designed to reach people in need in local communities. One of the largest social service organizations in the world is Operation Blessing, which Pat Robertson founded.

DOBBS: Jay Sekulow, Barry Lynn, gentlemen, thank you very much for behind here.

SEKULOW: Thanks, Lou.

LYNN: Thank you.

DOBBS: That brings us to the subject of tonight's poll. The question: Do you believe religious groups should be able to receive federal grants, yes or no? Cast your vote at CNN.com/Lou. We, of course, will have the results for you later here.

Still ahead, "Made in America," how some small groups are fighting to keep jobs in this country. We'll have a special report for you.

Cold and dangerous, that's just the weather forecast for the Northeast tonight. We'll have reports from around the region.

And on the campaign trail, a dramatic development in the race for the Democratic presidential nomination. We'll have a live report from Cedar Rapids, Iowa.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: Hundreds of thousands of jobs being exported overseas to cheap labor markets and a record high trade deficit causing many Americans to fight back. They are part of what is a growing movement to support companies that keep their goods and services made in America.

Lisa Sylvester has the story.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

LISA SYLVESTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Fred Tedesco's company, Pa-Ted, makes springs and small mechanical assemblies for larger companies. But in the last three years, he's closed three plants and laid off 48 employees after his biggest customers turned to foreign suppliers. Then he got mad, literally, starting a group called Mad in the USA.

FRED TEDESCO, PA-TED CO.: There's a tremendous number of people, up to maybe 17 million in this country, that are underemployed, that either can't find work or can't find full-time work or have had to take a pay much lower than what they were used to. That's not America.

SYLVESTER: Members of Mad in the USA are threatening to boycott companies, including Wal-Mart, that favor foreign suppliers over domestic ones. Pa-Ted has warned its company's insurance carrier, The Hartford Financial Services, that it will pull $200,000 worth of annual business if the financial firm does not stop outsourcing overseas.

It's just one of the homegrown movements aimed at keeping production and work in America. Out-of-work computer programmers and service workers are also turning up the pressure on Congress, emphasizing how job losses hurt.

JIM SCHOLLAERT, MANUFACTURING & TRADE ACTION COALITION: So they can hit these congressmen back in their districts and their senators back in their states. Large groups of CEOs of these small companies can go in with their mayors, with their education officials, their utility people.

SYLVESTER: Companies that outsources overseas have gone on the defense. The Hartford Financial Services group says: "Outsourcing gives The Hartford greater flexibility to quickly take on new projects, access diverse skills and better control costs. It also enables our employees to use their skills for more strategic projects."

But business owners like Fred Tedesco say, large corporations are missing the point. If Americans can't work for decent wages, they won't be able to afford the products and services the big companies are offering.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SYLVESTER: Some small-business owners are breaking away from large lobbying groups, like the U.S. Chamber of Commerce and the National Association of Manufacturers, because they feel these groups represent corporate interests. But these groups disagree. They say that most of their members are actually small mom-and-pop operations -- Lou.

DOBBS: Lisa, thank you -- Lisa Sylvester reporting from Washington.

Let's take a look at some of your thoughts on the president's proposal to give millions of illegal aliens jobs and legal status, he says, at least, some Americans don't want.

Scott Schuyler of Varna, Illinois: "All of this talk about jobs Americans don't want to do is quite honestly making me sick. We don't need illegal aliens to keep America running. We do need more parents who make their children learn the value of hard work and earning a dollar the right way, not the Enron way."

Rita Nalette of Seattle, Washington: "I'm a female American who lost her job in 2002. I started a cleaning service and, after a year, I'm finally earning enough to support myself. There are no social services available to me. I'm an American doing a job that politicians want to steal from me. Lucky for me, my clients like a hard-working, English-speaking, intelligent professional."

On "Exporting America," Rob in Stamford, Connecticut, said: "I'd like to know how we expect our kids to pay $100,000 on college, only to graduate and compete globally with people making $10 per hour. The math doesn't add up. Our kids will have to go college in India, which only puts more Americans out of work and further depresses wages."

James form Gastonia, North Carolina: "I've been watching your special all week and I have to say that President Bush needs to put the United States on eBay and let any country bid for us, because he's basically selling us down the river."

On the president's ambitious space initiative, Pat Handley of Tulsa, Oklahoma: "The moon? When he can't find any money to cover the uninsured or extend unemployment? How about taking care of the American people and our basic needs?"

Thomas Lawler of Crawfordsville, Indiana: "I support the president's proposal to return to the moon and create a mission to Mars as long as it's only open to American manufacturers. It may be the only thing that saves what's left of American industries."

And Scott White of Odessa, Florida: "It's great to see America investing in the future by initiating a new commitment to the space program. Mars, here we come."

Send us your thoughts at LouDobbs@CNN.com.

Still ahead, deep freeze. The Northeast tonight bracing for one of the coldest nights in years, some places already at record lows.

In "Grange on Point" tonight, a report published by the Army War College that says the war in Iraq was an unnecessary detour. General David Grange will give us his judgment next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: Tonight, the Northeastern United States is in a deep freeze, some of the coldest temperatures in years, plus driving winds creating dangerous conditions from New York to Maine. Tonight, the temperature in New York City is expected to fall to zero. Windchills will take that down to 30 degrees below zero. The low tonight in Boston, eight below zero. That doesn't even count the prospect of a windchill. And Burlington, Vermont, is expected to fall to minus-15.

We have three reports from around the Northeast, beginning with Kathy Curran reporting from affiliate WBZ in Boston.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KATHY CURRAN, WBZ REPORTER (voice-over): If you're looking for ice, we have got plenty of it, just below us. The cold temps and wind are causing a deep freeze from Boston Harbor, all the way to the Fore River in Quincy. That's actually the river that we're hovering above.

The Coast Guard has had cutters out here just trying to break up the ice, doing their job clearing the way for commuter boats and other traffic. We have actually seen a Boston Harbor cruise boat trying to make its way through all of the slush and ice. The Coast Guard tells us there are about six inches of slush and three to four inches of solid ice that they are dealing with out here.

And that is the story high above all of the frozen tundra.

I'm Kathy Curran for CNN.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SHARON MEYER, REPORTER: We had a low this morning of 20 degrees below zero here in Burlington. And up in the northeastern part of the state, we had a few reports of 40 degrees below zero.

Now, to give you an idea of how cold that is, earlier this morning, we took some cups of hot water right from the coffee machine inside, brought it outside and threw that hot water in the air. It freezes before it reaches the ground, just kind of turns into a puff of white ice crystals.

Now, we are expecting it to get bitterly cold again tonight, dropping to between 15, 30, or 35 degrees below zero across the state. And the winds are going to be picking up. So that means our windchills are going to be about 30 to 50 degrees below zero. The good news is, we are expecting the temperatures to struggle above zero tomorrow and then continue to moderate a bit over the weekend.

I'm Sharon Meyer reporting for CNN in Burlington, Vermont.

(END VIDEOTAPE) (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KIRSTEN COLE, WCBS REPORTER: As the sun has gone down here in Manhattan, we now have 10 degrees, and that's nothing compared to what we'll be facing tonight, windchills in the range of 20 to 30 degrees below zero. And we could come close to shattering a 110-year-old record of just one degree tomorrow morning.

New Yorkers have certainly been hunkering down for this one. And the NYPD has stepped up its efforts, making sure they he got the homeless off the streets, along with community outreach groups, so that nobody tries to weather a night out there.

Also, the Hudson River, this is such a rare site to see the airflows clinging along the banks there, thick blocks of ice, as we have just survived two back-to-back cold snaps. And right now, New Yorkers are looking forward to a warmup. The break will come this weekend, when temperatures finally hit the 30s.

I'm Kirsten Cole in New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

DOBBS: And coming up next here, democracy in action in Iraq, of all places, signs of a better way of life in prospect for Iraqis. We'll have a report.

Also, the sharp divide over illegal aliens the subject of an important new film that is featured at this year's Sundance Film Festival. We'll be talking with the directors of what I think is the best documentary produced in years. It's called "Farmingville."

And on the trail, Democratic presidential Howard Dean wins another endorsement and the latest poll shows a tightening race in Iowa. Pollster John Zogby of Zogby International is our guest.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: The past 24 hours in Iraq have been auspicious, noteworthy, no reports of American casualties or deaths over the past 24 hours. A new Iraqi currency was introduced today. And there were large demonstrations by thousands and thousands of Iraqis. And those demonstrations were peaceful.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DOBBS (voice-over): Tens of thousands of people today demonstrated in Basra. They were calling upon Paul Bremer to old early elections. Both the Iraqi demonstrations and the notion of elections are remarkable evidence that Iraqis are beginning to embrace the idea of democracy.

TOM DONNELLY, AMERICAN ENTERPRISE INSTITUTE: I think it's a very good sign. It's a desire on the part of Iraqis to establish their own government, to run their own lives. And, in particular, it's a genuine democratic impulse.

DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: After three decades of brutality and oppression, Iraqis are slowly taking control of their circumstances. Some two dozen Iraqi Cabinet ministers now contribute leadership on a day-to-day basis to the business of the government.

DOBBS: Huge challenges still face the Iraqis and the coalition. But there are important signs of progress.

Today, cell phone service is available and a new Iraqi dinar is in circulation, washed clean of signs of the old regime; 42 of the 55 most-wanted Iraqis have been captured, killed or have turned themselves in. Attacks against coalition forces have declined by 50 percent since November. Weapons, explosives and ammunition have been seized or turned in by the truckload.

Iraqi security force now number more than 200,000, as the newly freed citizens train to provide their own public safety. Great strides have also been made in education. Bill Evers just returned from five months in Iraq, trying to help revive the education system.

BILL EVERS, HOOVER INSTITUTION: Children are going to school with a brighter sense that their achievements, rather than their political fate in the hands of a dictatorship, will shape their future. And so achievement means much more to them than it could in the previous situation.

DOBBS: Nearly six million Iraqi children are now in school and their teachers are being paid at least five times their salary that they received under Saddam Hussein.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

DOBBS: And turning now to "Grange On Point."

A question that goes to the heart of the Pentagon's war strategy: Was the war in Iraq a distraction from the global conflict with al Qaeda and radical Islamist terrorists? That critical question was posed this week by Dr. Jeffrey Record, a visiting professor at the Army War College. Dr. Record said the strain of fighting two wars has pushed the Army almost to the breaking point.

Joining me now, General David Grange.

General, let's start out with the basic question. Was the war a detour?

RETIRED BRIG. GEN. DAVID GRANGE, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: I don't think it was a detour. I think the war was necessary.

Containment was only partially working. You were dealing with a regime that totally ignored U.N. mandates, supported terrorism by giving rewards for suicide bombers. But none of these states work by themselves. They work in partnership with other bad guys. And it was I think inevitable. Now, is it a distraction? Well, you have got to be able to do more than one thing at once. You have to think geometrically. You have to handle several contingencies. You can't take a linear, lockstep pace in this situation.

DOBBS: As you and I have discussed here quite often over the course of this past year, the U.S. military is indeed under tremendous strain. The commitment on the part of our men and women in uniform is remarkable, because of the missions they have. Is it your judgment that more still needs to be done? Do you subscribe or agree with Dr. Record's views about the strain on the military?

GRANGE: I think there's tremendous strain right now, especially on the ground forces, and in particular the Army, because they are carrying the heavy pack on their back in this commitment, especially on security and support operations and the need for boots on the ground around the world. So it is strained.

It's just enough, I think, right now. But the problem is, the challenge is sustainment, sustainment for the long term, to have a strategy where you could continue with operations on homeland defense, Iraq, Afghanistan, and the war against terrorists. That's a long-term commitment.

DOBBS: And it is a daunting commitment, by any standard.

Is it your judgment as we begin this new year that the U.S. military will be successful in a reasonably orderly fashion in both the global war against radical Islamist terror, succeed in Afghanistan and Iraq to the point that casualties will be as light as they possibly could be?

GRANGE: I think that the military will be successful. I have no doubt about that. What you said earlier. It's a magnificent force. It is overstretched, it's overcommitted and the argument about, well, you know, it's a spike right now. We don't need more forces. That may be the case, what if the spike doesn't go down. You have to prepare now for the future. For the next conflict, which is sure to come.

This is not the only thing the United States is going to be involved with. The strategic enemy thinkers, the terrorist groups want a catastrophic event this year. They want to continue the spike for a long term. I believe we have to look at the long term and build the force not only for tomorrow but well into the future.

DOBBS: General David Grange, as always, thank you.

A reminder now to vote in our poll. The question, "do you believe religious groups should be able to receive federal grants? Yes or No." Please vote at CNN.com/lou.

Coming up next. On the trail, a polling surprise and a change in the field of Democratic presidential candidates with only four days before the Iowa caucuses. I'll be joined by John Zogby of Zogby International. We'll be talking about his latest polling on this ever tightening race.

And an outstanding new documentary about the impact of more than a thousand illegal aliens on one American community. The directors and producers of the documentary film "Farmingville" join us.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: Former vice president Al Gore today blasted President Bush's space proposal and called the president a morale coward for ignoring environmental threats. Gore specifically criticized the president's Clear Skies bill and Healthy Forest initiative. Gore said such policies underscore President Bush's goal of satisfying the interest of large corporations in return for campaign contributions. It was, of course, the Clinton/Gore administration that failed to submit the Kyota global warming treaty to the U.S. Senate.

General Wesley Clark today said Congress should determine whether President Bush was criminal by advocating a war against Saddam Hussein. He said the president misled the American public on the issue of Iraq. General Clark, likes to say he has been a consistent opponent of the war in Iraq but the reality appears to be much less clear.

In testimony to Congress in September 2002, as reported by the "Drudge Report," General Clark said if peaceful efforts to resolve the Iraq issue fail the United States should form a coalition to bring force to bear. General Clark also wrote an op-ed article in the "Times of London" in April shortly after the coalition overthrew Saddam Hussein's regime. In that article, General Clark said, "President Bush and Tony Blair should be proud of their resolve in the face of so much doubt."

On the campaign trail tonight, Carol Moseley Braun, the only woman competing for the Democratic presidential nomination dropped out of the race. Braun said she will now support Howard Dean. National correspondent Bob Franken has the report from Cedar Rapids, Iowa.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BOB FRANKEN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): She had little impact on the campaign, but now former Senator Carol Moseley Braun will see what impact she has as a former presidential candidate.

CAROL MOSELEY BRAUN, FORMER DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Howard Dean is a Democrat we can all be proud to support.

FRANKEN: According to sources, Moseley Braun approached Howard Dean after last Sunday night's debate after she had chastised Reverend Al Sharpton for attacking Dean over his minority hiring record.

BRAUN: And the Reverend Sharpton, the fact of the matter is, you can always blow up a racial debate and make people mad at each other.

DEAN: And I'm going to miss you at those debates stepping in and defending me from those outrageous things people say.

FRANKEN: It's difficult to say whether Dean needs Moseley Braun's small band of supporters and difficult to gauge how accurate the polls are that show a virtual dead heat between candidates Dean, Gephardt and notably Kerry.

SEN. JOHN KERRY (D-MA), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I have said all along that I'm always wary of polls, whether I'm up or whether I'm down.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

FRANKEN: And wary he should be, Lou. This is a very volatile situation. One that is hard to define and one that is still being defined with a weekend to go plus Monday for the caucuses.

DOBBS: Bob Franken reporting tonight from, of course, Iowa.

The latest Zogby tracking poll as Bob Franken just reported shows Howard Dean, Senator John Kerry and Dick Gephardt in a dead heat with only four days before the Iowa caucuses. Joining us now to tell us what this latest poll means is the man who runs it, John Zogby himself. Joining us from Utica, New York. John, good to have you here.

JOHN ZOGBY, PRESIDENT/CEO, ZOGBY INTERNATIONAL: Hi, Lou.

DOBBS: The volatility we have seen in your tracking poll and other polls, what does that suggest to us?

ZOGBY: It suggests that it's really a four-way tie. That anyone of these candidates can win, each of them has his own unique strengths and right now voters in Iowa are focusing and what they are saying as they are focusing is they think George W. Bush can be defeated in November and they want to see a candidate who can win, not a candidate who just simply has a message.

DOBBS: Howard Dean for a while, it looked like was the clear frontrunner. What does your polling suggest about his position and what is affecting it right now?

ZOGBY: Very telling questions that we ask at the end of our poll. How likely is it that Howard Dean can defeat President Bush? 31 percent say not likely. We follow that with how likely is it that another candidate in this race can defeat George W. Bush. And 12 percent say not likely.

So the fact is that just at the point where Iowa Democrats think they can win and certainly want to win is now when they're scrutinizing the candidates. In comes John Kerry and John Edwards with a different kind of message. These two candidates had had a difficult time finding a message and a persona that was appealing but now Kerry's message is I've got experience and I can win. And Edwards is, I offer hope and I can win. Let's see if it works.

DOBBS: What does your polling suggest? Are both of those men regarded as more likely than Dean to be able to defeat President Bush come November?

ZOGBY: Well, presumably they are the, quote, "that other candidate." Although I will say, also, that Dick Gephardt is still right around where he normally is in the low to mid 20s. That has not been wavering. Obviously, Gephardt has the best organization on the ground. So any one of these four can win.

DOBBS: What is the hottest issue in this race. What is most important to those who will be voting in the Iowa caucuses?

ZOGBY: I think the economy is no. 1 and then followed by the war. There is agreement on the part of Democrats in opposition to the war. Agreement by about 65 or 70 percent of Iowa caucus voters. But there are some economic concerns, not only farming concerns but Iowans have seen jobs being exported overseas and there is a concern for their immediate future. So employment, really, is the key issue.

DOBBS: How do you, John, assure the accuracy of these polls -- and I know that's a very difficult thing to do -- given that the people you are polling, they are certainly not guaranteed to show up in a caucus in Iowa?

ZOGBY: Absolutely. Voters need to understand that this is a different animal than a primary. We're talking a snapshot and trying to get kind of a picture here. I won't hang my hat on a result and make a prediction. If there is enough in this polling data, a sample of 500 every three days. Margin of error plus or minus 4.5 to suggest to me that the race is a four-way race and that it is too close to call. From there, there are no predictions.

DOBBS: Well, there will be, I'm sure, plenty to fill in the vacuum that you have left there, John Zogby. We appreciate you taking the time.

ZOGBY: Thank you, Lou.

DOBBS: Now tonight's thought from Martin Luther King Jr. On this, which would be his 75th birthday. Quote, "the ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy."

Coming up, "Broken Borders," an extraordinary documentary debuting at this year's Sundance Festival focuses on a controversial issue we've been reporting on for some time now.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ...separate the 2 groups a little bit. You can still each have your press conferences, but ...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You are not separating us or anything. We're American citizens. We're here on our capitol property.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When I need your opinion, I'll ask for it, thank you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

DOBBS: We'll be joined by the directors of the documentary "Farmingville" from Park City, Utah, next. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: A look now at news in brief. The U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention today said the flu vaccine failed to prevent illness during this year's deadly flu season. The unprecedented study showed the vaccine had no or little effect against the flu.

An American Airlines pilot is caught in the middle of a fight between the United States and Brazil over documenting visitors. The pilot was fined nearly $13,000 for making an obscene gesture in a security photograph in Brazil. Americans must now be fingerprinted and photographed when entering Brazil because of similar rules for Brazilians and others who are implemented here. American Airlines, by the way, paid the fine.

NASA's Mars rover Spirit successfully rolled off its lander on to Martian soil early this morn. Spirit will next travel 300 feet to a large crater to search for clues about the red planet's geological past.

That brings us to tonight's quote, "we have six wheels in the dirt. Mars now is our sandbox and we are ready to play and learn." That from Charles Elochi, director of NASA's jet propulsion laboratory.

In just a moment, Christine Romans will have the latest for us on the market. Also still ahead, our celebration of the people who make this country work.

Tonight, the American born nanny who has made a career in a profession some say only illegal aliens would want to fill.

And I'll be talk to the producers of what may be the most important film to debut at the Sundance Film Festival. A hard hitting documentary about the impact of illegal aliens on a small community in New York.

On Wall Street today, stocks held steady. The Dow up 15, the Nasdaq down 2, the S&P up 1.5. Despite the markets flat performance, encouraging news on the economy. Christine Romans is here with that -- Christine.

CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN FINANCIAL CORRESPONDENT: Well a strong earnings report from IBM accounted for all the Dow's gain. And 57 regional banking stocks hit 52 week highs, so there was some excitement there, the real fire works the economic news. The National Association of Manufacturers expects 4 percent economic growth this year.

DOBBS: Did you call that fireworks? ROMANS: Well, I'm getting to it. 250,000 new manufacturing jobs, mostly, Lou, in fabricated metal, electronics and industrial equipment.

Now, look at this, optimism among small business owners running hot, up 3 months in a roe to the highest now since 1983. Meanwhile a survey of Philadelphia area factories hit at least a 10-year high and the Empire Fed Index hit a 2 year high.

All that meant a dollar rally, finally. And the dollar strength stung gold. Gold futures down $13, the cheapest now in a month. And crude oil fell more than 3 percent. Natural gas, heating oil, gasoline prices also cooling off a bit. Many hoping that the bullish fever has broken in the commodities, specifically in the oil prices. At least for now

DOBBS: Well, thanks for bringing those fire works to a conclusion in those economic reports. Thank you Christine. Christine Romans

Well the results now of our poll, 9 percent of you say religious groups should be able to receive federal grants. 91 percent of you will require some convincing, as they say.

Coming up next, we'll be talking with the directors of the documentary "Farmingville," one of the most important documentary films featured at this year's Sundance Film Festival.

And "America Works," the story of a remarkable young college graduate who's proud of her career, even though some say it's a job most Americans don't want.

First, an update on the list of companies our staff has confirmed to be exporting America, U.S. companies sending American jobs overseas or choosing to employ cheap foreign labors instead of American workers. The additions tonight include The Holmes Group, an appliance manufacturer, Medtronic, a medical equipment maker, Well Choice, a healthcare provider.

Please keep sending those names in. And for the complete list log on to CNN.com/lou. We'll be right back. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ANNOUNCER: LOU DOBBS TONIGHT continues. Now American Works.

DOBBS: Tonight, the story of an American born college educated young woman doing a job some say that only illegal aliens would want.

Casey Wian, has her story from Los Angeles.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): She quit college to pursue her dream job as a nanny. Four day as week, 10 hours a day she arrives at the home of entertainment industry executives Matt and Erin Berenson to take care of their 7-month-old son, Leo (ph). It' Robertson's sixth nanny job in 11 years.

WIAN: What do you like about the job.

PAULA ROBERSON, NANNY: The kids. The instant gratification. Every day I come into work and he gives me a big grin.

WIAN: In act, he helped conceive a movie he father produced "Daddy Daycare.

ERIN BERENSON, MOTHER: When I was pregnant it was inspired by Matt sort of imagining what if I was going to stay home with this baby.

WIAN: With both parents working finding a real live nanny for their baby was no joke.

MATT BERENSON, FATHER: We wanted somebody where English was their first language because, you know, communication is so important when it comes to child rearing and nothing is more important to us than Leo and to hire somebody illegally it's more complicated and who wants to risk that.

WIAN: Many families do, because illegal aliens work for less. Roberson earns $800 a week.

ROBERSON: The illegal immigrants you are talking about, most of them, if they make 400 a week they are doing really well. A lot of time with that 400 that will include house cleaning too.

WIAN: Even so she doesn't consider illegal aliens a competitive threat.

ROBERSON: When it comes to being a nanny, I'm going to get sent out to jobs they are not even going to get sent out to just for the mere fact that I'm American, I'm legal, and I speak English.

WIAN: As mom and dad leave for work, it's time for a bottle then a nap then a trip to the park. Roberson thinks about having a family of her own some down, but now happy about being a nanny.

ROBERSON: So no regrets about not becoming a lawyer. I'll be 36 in a couple weeks and I have no intention of changing careers.

WIAN: Clearly, Leo approves.

Casey Wian, CNN, Los Angeles.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

DOBBS: One of the most important documentaries in years in my opinion, explores the subject we've been examining on this broadcast for months. The impact of as many as 12 million illegal aliens in this country on our society. "Farmingville" which is featured at this year's Sundance film festival examines the arrival of more than 1,000 illegal aliens in one small town and tells the story how it leads to deep division in the community, tragedy and conflict. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MARGARET BIANCULLI-DYBER: Have you the contractors, you have the supplies and you have the people willing to profit off the situation. None of that has anything to do with what is right for a community. What is good for the children. What is good for the quality of life in the community. None of that. So why "Farmingville? Here we are. Becoming an activist for me, I didn't even know that's what I was doing, but I knew that over a thousand illegal aliens moving into our community had a very intense and severe impact on our community.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): When I looked, my friend was on the ground. One guy cut me with a knife. I saw the exit. I ran. But I slipped and fell that day. They caught up and attacked me.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Prosecutors say these symbols of hate are tattoos found on this man, 29-year-old Christopher Slaven (ph). Slaven is the second man charged on a vicious attack on two Mexican day labors. 19-year-old Ryan Wagner (ph) of Queens turned himself in three weeks ago. Prosecutors say these tattoos indicate a racist motive and confirmed ties to white supremacist groups.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That was a major turning point because a lot of people of goodwill everywhere was saying this has gone too far, two young people could be attacked just because they were looking for work.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

DOBBS: Joining me now the directors, the producers of the documentary Carlos Sandoval and Catherine Tambini, joining us tonight from the Sundance Film Festival in Park City, Utah.

Let me say to you both, my compliments, it is an absolutely terrific documentary on a complex, difficult subject.

Let me ask you first how I decided to do a documentary on this subject?

CARLOS SANDOVAL, DIRECTOR "FARMINGVILLE": Well, Lou, I think live out in eastern Long Island.

We both do.

Yes, we both do. At that time, I sensed that there were some tensions growing in East Hampton, then the beatings took place. And I felt it was something that needed to be documented. We needed to know what was going on. And understand what was leading up to these tensions.

DOBBS: The remarkable -- many remarkable aspects of this documentary to me is that you managed to introduce to us and allow us to get to know within this film all sides of this dispute. The local government officials, the illegal aliens themselves, the community that is -- that feels so put upon. It is remarkable story telling. There are so many questions I want to ask you but I don't want to spoil the documentary for anyone else who will be watching this great film. But one question I have to ask you is -- well I can't ask that without getting into that. I'm trying not to spoil the movie. Let me ask you this, what is your conclusion after all of your time and the effort you spent with both sides on this issue, do you have a sense of the answers to this critically important issue for our country?

CATHERINE TAMBINI, DIRECTOR, "FARMINGVILLE": Well, Lou, we're film makers. So you know we're not really into policy. We really wanted to chronicle what was going on in the small community where there are issues of this magnitude. And it was important to us to really tell the story from all different sides. So that everyone could stand and everyone else's shoes and say how would I react if I were in this situation?

Would I do what one of the characters did?

So that was one of our major goals was to be as balanced as we could with the film.

DOBBS: And the fact that you can sense the pain of the citizens of Farmingville as they struggle to deal with the sudden onslaught of illegal aliens, an estimated 1,500, you have actually watched through your eyes we are watching them struggle with all the issues. The issues of racism. The issue of economics. The issue of comfort and knowledge of the familiar being totally disrupted. And at the same your film -- and I have got say this, I asked myself, how in the world can any community expect to deal with an issue like this without better national leadership and better local leadership. Did you sense the same thing in the making of the film.

SANDOVAL: Absolutely, Lou. Absolutely. I think Farmingville is a Hamlets and unincorporated Hamlet, so it doesn't have any direct local representation or government. Unfortunate that nobody was there to help the citizens as they started out. And at the federal level, unfortunately the solutions weren't available to them either. So, that sort of lack of local leadership did lead to a vacuum that lead to the tensions that arouse. And as the people and the citizens of Farmingville had to struggle to do.

TAMBINI: They had very legitimate concerns. There are 30 men crowding into houses in residential neighborhoods. They do stand on the street corners looking for work. And the disrupt the lives of the people who are there. So something really needs to be done. On -- as Carlos said, on the local and the national level.

DOBBS: Catherine Tambini, Carlos Sandoval, our congratulations for a stirring documentary. We thank you for sharing your work with us.

SANDOVAL: Thank you, Lou.

TAMBINI: Thank you very much, Lou. We really appreciate it.

DOBBS: Thank you. That's our show for tonight and we thank you for being with us. Tomorrow night on our series of special reports "Made in America," we look at whether it is still possible to buy made in American products in American.

And in our feature series "Heroes," we'll meet an army specialist trying to return to life at home after surviving combat in Iraq. Please join us.

Thanks for being with us tonight. For all us here good night from New York.

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