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Lou Dobbs Tonight
Voter Turnout High in New Hampshire; Legal Jobs Shipped Overseas
Aired January 27, 2004 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR: Tonight: a heavy voter turnout in New Hampshire. We'll have live reports on all the major candidates. Our panel of top political journalists will give us their predictions for the outcome.
In "Broken Borders" tonight, one issue you haven't heard the candidates talk about on the campaign trail, the massive influx of illegal aliens into this country. We'll have a special report on why.
In "Exporting America," it's not only manufacturing and technology jobs that are heading overseas to cheap labor markets. Hundreds of thousands of highly paid legal jobs are also being shipped overseas.
And snow, ice and freezing rain have brought chaos to much of the country. Nearly 50 people have been killed, from Kansas to the Carolinas. Hundreds of thousands of people tonight are without power.
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT for Tuesday, January 27. Here now, Lou Dobbs.
DOBBS: Good evening.
In New Hampshire, it's two hours before the polls close. Voters have turned out in huge numbers to cast their ballots. John Kerry is leading the pre-election polls.
We have three reports now from New Hampshire, Kelly Wallace with the Kerry campaign, Candy Crowley with the Dean campaign. Suzanne Malveaux is with John Edwards.
We begin with you, Kelly Wallace, in Manchester.
KELLY WALLACE, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Lou, we have just learned that John Kerry will be doing seven local interviews with New Hampshire and Boston stations, these interviews scheduled just a short time ago.
One aide telling CNN the senator wanted to come down here and give one last push. Going into this day, aides said that, despite the senator's lead in the polls, they definitely expected a tight race and that they were taking nothing for granted. And that is why we saw the senator out not once, but twice today, greeting voters on the streets, trying to encourage them to vote his way.
The senator facing two challenges, No. 1, winning this primary, but also meeting expectations, since he's been leading in the polls all week. Earlier today, CNN's Bill Hemmer asked him if it would be a disappointing showing if he doesn't win big here.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. JOHN KERRY (D-MA), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: My gosh, three weeks ago, you guys were writing me off. This is the comeback trail. If I win here, I think that's enormous. And I'll take one point, given where the campaign was judged to be by most people in the media a couple of months ago. I think we've got a lot of energy here. And I'm not looking at polls. I'm out there looking for votes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WALLACE: And earlier, the decorated Vietnam veteran was out there working the phones, sitting alongside other Vietnam veterans, trying to urge people to go to the polls. Aides say that the so- called Veterans Brigade was very successful for them in Iowa, and they're hoping with similar success with veterans here in New Hampshire.
This campaign obviously trying to win in New Hampshire, but also looking beyond to the seven states in the next round of primaries, and caucuses and aides saying that, beginning tomorrow, the senator will have ads running in all of those seven states -- Lou.
DOBBS: Kelly, thank you.
Later, I'll be talking with Senator Kerry about his campaign in New Hampshire and those challenges that Kelly referenced that lie ahead.
Howard Dean launched a last-minute attack on John Kerry today, telling Kerry to stop whining.
Candy Crowley is in Manchester.
Candy, are Dean's tactics helping him here in the final hours?
CANDY CROWLEY, CNN SR. POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, I tell you, in the final hours, if it's about bringing out the people who are drawn to you anyway, that doesn't hurt him.
You know, as you know, Howard Dean has been hit extremely hard over the past week post-Iowa, post that concession speech. And they've been pretty -- in the days following Iowa, it was a fairly mellow campaign, a fairly mellow candidate, not a lot of aggressive talk. It's only since yesterday and again this morning that we've heard some of that pushback to Kerry. So, as far as those adamant and passionate supporters of Howard Dean, it probably helps.
DOBBS: Candy, thank you very much.
Well, it looks as though Dean will finish in second place. John Edwards would obviously love to pull off another surprise finish.
Suzanne Malveaux is with the Edwards campaign in Merrimack, New Hampshire -- Suzanne.
SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Lou, that is certainly what he is hoping for.
Edwards is with his family, anxiously awaiting the results tonight. And his camp says they insist that the polls really don't reflect what has been going on, on the ground. And that's been the hundreds and hundreds of people that have come out to support him. Just within the last week or so, we've seen those numbers close.
His close-the-deal strategy has been about really taking advantage of his personal appeal, as well as his communication skills to give a vision of one America, a positive, optimistic vision. He's also been talking about something as well. And that is race relations. It has played well with some of the audiences in New Hampshire, as well as Iowa. It is bound to have more of an impact in South Carolina, as well as Saint Louis, Missouri, where there's a significant African-American community.
Now, Edwards has been dogged by criticism from some of his opponents that his one term in the Senate does not give him the kind of experience that he needs in terms of military and foreign affairs to be president. Edwards disagrees. And what his camp is hoping for tonight is a strong finish, a third-place finish.
They'll be happy with that. But they're already looking forward. They're looking forward to South Carolina. That's his birthplace. Polls show that he leads now in South Carolina at 21 percent. They're looking at Missouri as well, a key battleground state. That is where he got the endorsement of the lieutenant governor.
His schedule is going to be very tight, Lou. We are talking about three states tomorrow, South Carolina, Oklahoma, as well as Missouri. We are told he's going to be visiting in the week to come an African-American church. He's going to be participating in the presidential debate, of course. And then there will be a fund-raiser at the end of the week by Hootie and the Blowfish -- Lou.
DOBBS: Suzanne, thank you very much.
And, obviously, this contest, with so many undecided voters going into the election, anything could happen this evening. But two specific candidates are in a fight to avoid what appears to be fifth place. They are Joe Lieberman and Clark.
We begin with Jeanne Meserve with the Lieberman campaign.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JEANNE MESERVE, CNN HOMELAND SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: In public, at least, Joe Lieberman has been the very picture of an optimistic candidate. Today, he made a number of stops around the Manchester area, trying to persuade voters to side with him.
Now, polls going into today's voting showed him in contention for third place with Wesley Clark and John Edwards. He says he doesn't need that third-place finish in order to continue with his campaign. But he has put in an extraordinary effort here, even moving to the state of New Hampshire. He's portrayed himself here as the most moderate Democrat in this race, the one who can persuade independents and disgruntled Republicans to vote with the Democrats in November.
But that has put him to the right of the base of the New Hampshire Democratic Party. And many say, what he needs today is for independents to turn out in large numbers and for independents to vote overwhelmingly for him.
Jeanne Meserve, CNN, Manchester, New Hampshire.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DAN LOTHIAN, CNN BOSTON BUREAU CHIEF: I'm Dan Lothian with the Clark campaign.
The retired general spent the morning out on the sidewalks in Manchester, New Hampshire, meeting and greeting voters, one final push to sway the independent and undecided voters. Clark is trying to recapture some momentum, after impressive numbers in the polls a few weeks ago faded. Late tonight, Clark embarks on his True Values tour, which, over the next two days, will take the campaign to South Carolina, New Mexico, Arizona and Oklahoma.
Clark spent the afternoon doing satellite interviews with TV stations in those February 3 and February 10 states. The campaign says he will continue to run as the outsider who can beat President Bush.
Dan Lothian, CNN, Bedford, New Hampshire.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: Coming right up, we'll have a lot more for you from New Hampshire. I'll be talking with Senator John Kerry. And our panel of top political journalists will be offering their assessments of the issues and the prospects of the winner.
Also, six American soldiers and two members of a CNN news crew killed today in Iraq. Pentagon correspondent Barbara Starr will report.
In "Exporting America" tonight, hundreds of thousands of highly- paid American legal jobs are being shipped overseas to cheap labor markets. We'll have that report.
And Martha Stewart's trial finally under way. Our legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin in court. He'll give us his assessment of the first day.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) DOBBS: A bloody day in Iraq. Insurgents killed six American soldiers in two separate bomb attacks near Baghdad. Terrorists also killed two of our CNN colleagues today. They died when a gunman opened fire on their convoy south of Baghdad.
Pentagon correspondent Barbara Starr reports -- Barbara.
BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Indeed, Lou, a very sad day here at CNN, two of our colleagues shot and killed in Iraq, another wounded, when their convoy, their road convoy, came under attack south of Baghdad.
These are the two that we lost, producer/translator Duraid Isa Mohammed and driver Yasser Khatab, shot and killed by unknown assailants. Our CNN cameraman, Scott McWhinnie, suffered a grazing bullet wound to the head. He is recovering. Our correspondent Michael Holmes, who so many of our viewers have seen on television, and Shirley Hung, Washington producer and friend, escaped injury in that attack, of course, some of the many journalists who risk their lives every day to bring the story of Iraq to viewers around the world. But these two indeed will be missed.
Now, of course, for U.S. soldiers, the risks they face every day in Iraq, another very violent day. West of Baghdad, near Khaldiya, in a roadside blast, three U.S. soldiers and an Iraqi killed, four wounded, this area, of course, much of the heartland of the resistance movement. In fact, today, when a quick-reaction force came to the scene to try and help, additional gunfire broke out. And tonight late word, another three soldiers killed in yet another roadside attack south of Baghdad -- Lou.
DOBBS: Barbara, thank you -- Barbara Starr from the Pentagon.
President Bush today repeated his view that Saddam Hussein was a grave and gathering threat to the world before the war in Iraq. President Bush also said he has great competence in the U.S. intelligence community, even though intelligence experts have found no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: There is no doubt in my mind the world is a better place without Saddam Hussein. America is more secure. The world is safer. And the people of Iraq are free.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: Which brings us to the topic of tonight's poll. The question: How much confidence do you have in U.S. intelligence agencies, a lot, some, a little or none? Please cast your vote at CNN.com/Lou. We'll have the results for you later in the broadcast.
There was a significant step forward today in the U.S. and British efforts to dismantle Libya's nuclear weapons program. A U.S. transport aircraft loaded with 55,000 pounds of Libyan nuclear components landed in Knoxville, Tennessee, today. That equipment includes parts for centrifuges and guidance systems for long-range missiles. The components will be unloaded and destroyed at a nearby nuclear facility, most likely the Oak Ridge nuclear weapons plant.
Private security guards at Oak Ridge were remarkably successful in a recent anti-terrorist exercise, far too successful, in fact, according to government investigators. Those security guards repelled successfully four simulated terrorist attacks. But, it turns out, the security guards cheated. The Energy Department says the guards' supervisors saw plans for the mock attacks before the drill took place.
The department said it's taken action to improve security. The security company, Wackenhut, is still providing guards for Oak Ridge. The company said security today is better than ever.
Coming up next here, our special report, "Exporting America." Another industry is now at risk of losing hundreds of thousands of jobs to cheap labor markets overseas. We'll have that report for you.
We'll, of course, be going to New Hampshire, where the weather is cold tonight. The race for the Democratic primary is doing nothing, if not heating up. We'll be talking with our panel of top political journalists -- all of that, a great deal more, still ahead here.
Please stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: As we have reported extensively on this show and continue to do, high-quality American jobs are being shipped to cheap overseas labor markets at a staggering rate.
Tonight, in our special report, "Exporting America," a disturbing report on one industry that's turning to cheap foreign labor and what that decision could end up costing American citizens.
Kitty Pilgrim reports on the exportation of the legal profession.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KITTY PILGRIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): First, it was manual labor, then service jobs. Now it's legal work being shipped overseas to cut costs.
JOHN MCCARTHY, FORRESTER RESEARCH: You're not going to see lawyers, you know, using video-conferencing to argue a case from India in a courtroom in the United States. But there are the back-office- type operations, the research-intensive tasks.
PILGRIM: Market research firm Forrester Research predicts, in the next 11 years, some 8 percent of law jobs will shift to low-cost countries. Paralegal work and work done by junior lawyers is particularly vulnerable to offshoring. Experts say large legal firms, who pay young associates high salaries, are looking to cut costs. DAVID WILKINS, HARVARD UNIVERSITY: The more work that is taken away from them, either by being given to paralegals or sending it offshore to contract professionals in places like India, the less opportunity there will be for young lawyers to be trained.
PILGRIM: Richard Maltz, active in the legal profession, says that safeguards have to be put in place.
RICHARD MALTZ, ASSN. OF THE BAR OF THE CITY OF NEW YORK: The quality of the work has to be supervised. You have to make sure that nonlawyers aren't performing legal work. And also very important for lawyers is confidentiality.
PILGRIM: Legal research and publishing has already discovered the cost-cutting benefits. This young woman, who asked us to disguise her appearance and voice, is a lawyer for West. West is a legal information company based in Minnesota and has a pilot program where some work is done in India. She says people in the office are concerned.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They're trying to really cut costs, you know. How is this going to affect us? Is this going to be something that, later on down the line, they're going to be looking to cut our jobs, too?
PILGRIM: She wonders, with this trend, who will be willing to invest time and tuition to earn a legal degree?
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: Now, some firms get around the issue by saying that foreign legal teams are supervised by U.S.-based lawyers. Experts say, legal clients, for now, are just looking at the reduced fees they are charged -- Lou.
DOBBS: The total number of jobs that are projected to be lost?
PILGRIM: It will be 8 percent by 2015.
DOBBS: Of lawyers.
PILGRIM: Eight percent of all legal jobs -- yes, by Forrester, which is a shocking number.
DOBBS: Well, not as shocking as manufacturing and a number of other jobs, high-value jobs, in this country.
Kitty, thank you very much.
Coming up next here, there is still time to vote in the nation's first primary. We'll be heading back to New Hampshire. We'll be talking with three of the country's top political journalists. And some Republicans have now banded together against President Bush's immigration proposal.
And prosecutors today, in the first day of the Martha Stewart trial, say she lied. The defense says it's all speculation. We'll have the latest on the case and a great deal more.
Please stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Voters in New Hampshire have about another hour and a half to vote in the nation's first presidential primary.
The seven Democratic candidates are campaigning right up to the last minute. I am joined now by three of the country's top political journalists, Ron Brownstein, national political correspondent for "The L.A. Times." He joins us tonight from Manchester. From Washington, Karen Tumulty, national political correspondent, "TIME" magazine. Roger Simon, political editor for "U.S. News & World Report."
Good to have you all with us.
It looks as though, at least in the pre-election polls, that Kerry is going to win. Is there a perceived wisdom amongst the three of you that that could be anything but true?
Roger?
ROGER SIMON, POLITICAL EDITOR, "U.S. NEWS & WORLD REPORT": There are polls and there are polls.
Kerry came come out of Iowa with a large lead in New Hampshire. That lead has been whittled away by Howard Dean. And I don't think we know who who's going to win yet. If Howard Dean does manage to pull off an even close second or go ahead and win, he will be the comeback kid. It will be a huge story. Kerry probably needs to win big just to maintain the expectations that he's had all week long.
DOBBS: I'm getting confused, Karen. Who's the comeback kid here? Is it Dean or is it Kerry?
(LAUGHTER)
KAREN TUMULTY, NATIONAL POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT, "TIME": Well, you know, it's really funny.
I just talked to Dean headquarters within the last hour. And they were sitting there scratching their heads, trying to come up with a synonym for comeback. The phrase off life support probably doesn't have quite the ring they're looking for.
(LAUGHTER)
TUMULTY: But the fact is, if in fact it's closer than it looked a few days ago, if, you know, say, it's within five, six points, there are in fact three tickets out of New Hampshire. The race is less clear even than it was before. And who knows what to make of next Tuesday, when it moves on to seven states.
DOBBS: Seven states.
Ron, is it your sense that we'll see the number of candidates winnow down before as a result of tonight, and, if so, by how much?
RON BROWNSTEIN, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: I think they're all talking tough about staying in. We'll see whether -- Joe Lieberman, for instance, is saying they're going to stay in no matter what.
On the broader point of what's happening here, Lou, I said to you last night, I thought that, at the end of race, there was more energy on the Dean side than at some of the events I went to with Kerry.
DOBBS: Right.
BROWNSTEIN: I think it was Woody Allen who said, a relationship is like a shark. It's either moving forward or it's dying. I feel the same way about political campaigns.
You really have to be driving a message. You have to be driving a message and making a point in order to sustain momentum. And I think Kerry may do fine here, but I think that there's -- but it's partly because he's a neighbor and he's a comfortable place to land. I don't think that, in this last week, he really had a clear driving message. He may have allowed Dean, who's done some reconfiguring of his own message, to get back closer than Kerry wants.
DOBBS: Well, John Kerry -- just to support your point, Senator Kerry, who was supposed to join us here in just a couple of minutes, his campaign just told us that he's going to go out and still campaign and not take time off to talk with us tonight.
BROWNSTEIN: Well, there you go.
DOBBS: So there may be much to what you say there, Ron, as always.
Let me ask you, in the case of General Clark -- Wes Clark seems to be at one point gaining momentum, then losing momentum. What is his future and what is his likely performance tonight?
BROWNSTEIN: Well, maybe I'll start there.
Look, in the Army, nothing is prized more than the ability to hold ground once you take it. And that's been the problem for Wes Clark here. It's an ominous trend for his campaign. He was as high as the mid 20s when everybody else was in Iowa. When they got here, he had a very bad week. He said a whole series of things that he probably wishes he didn't, generals and lieutenants, had problems with abortion, Michael Moore calling President Bush a deserter and Wesley Clark not knowing what to say.
So he's eroded. They really need February 3. They've spent a lot of money. They bought ads last week, Lou, in 25 different markets around the country. They've put a lot of money into Oklahoma, Arizona, South Carolina. I suspect they're really going to make a big push in Oklahoma, New Mexico and Arizona. And, frankly, they need to win something, or else it is going to be very hard for them to stay in the race after February 3.
SIMON: Lou, I think General Clark has been hampered most of all by his late start into the race.
None of these candidates who are good now on the stump were good in the beginning. Even John Edwards, who may be the best on the stump right now, wasn't that great a year ago. It's a skill that you pick up as you go along. It takes some time. But General Clark started late and he is still finding himself as a candidate. He is still dealing with the hour-by-hour, minute-by-minute scrutiny of the press.
He's still dealing with delivering a stump speech, which he still reads from notes from the lectern. And it may just be too late for him. As Ron said, he has to win somewhere and keep winning, because he's going to be facing two people coming out of New Hampshire who are going to have a lot of wind behind their sails.
TUMULTY: The other problem he's got, too, and the other thing that he needs is a resurgent Howard Dean.
A major rationale for his candidacy, at least in the minds of a lot of Democrats, was that he was the alternative to Dean. When you've lost that, suddenly, people actually start listening to what he's saying, as opposed to looking at his resume. And that I think has in fact, as Roger said, been his problem over the last week.
DOBBS: What is your sense of the turnout there tonight? We know it's heavy. Do you have any sense of how heavy this turnout is in New Hampshire and what its likely impact could be, Ron?
BROWNSTEIN: Well, I don't know exactly. I'm getting kind of mixed reports.
I think it will be a good turnout. One thing, this is more of a question than an answer. Howard Dean had I think maybe more ability here to recover than elsewhere, both because it's a very favorable electorate for hem. It's dominated by the kind of upscale college graduates who have been most sympathetic to him. But, also, Lou, he spent a lot of time campaigning here. He had a lot of personal relationships with a lot of voters who were willing as the week went on perhaps to overlook the questions that were raised in his speech Monday night and, indeed, in the weeks up to that.
I do wonder, as you move beyond New Hampshire, to places like Oklahoma, Arizona, South Carolina, where his polls have been falling, and, obviously, the intimacy of the relationship is not the same, will they give him the kind of second look that many people here seem to do? It's a critical question for his campaign moving forward this next week.
(CROSSTALK)
SIMON: I think Ron makes a good point, Lou. Even before his defeat in Iowa, his aides, his top aides, were saying that, while on the issues, Iowa was a good state for Dean -- the issue being the war -- on demographics, Iowa was not a good state for him. It was an older population, the second oldest population in the United States.
And it had a low Internet use among the population. Howard Dean does well in younger, more upscale states where there's a lot of Internet use. And on February 3, he's going to be running into some states which are not natural Dean states.
TUMULTY: Although I would, at this point, say two words here, Judy Dean.
I think we're going to be seeing some more of Mrs. Dean. And if I were a patient of hers right now, I would probably be looking into rescheduling any appointments I have with her over the next couple of weeks.
(LAUGHTER)
(CROSSTALK)
BROWNSTEIN: At least the next week.
(LAUGHTER)
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: Well, as you all remind us here, thankfully, each week, politics are not just about electability or appraisal of personality, but really substantive political issues.
Which is the most important issue? What has, in your judgment, at least, resonated best with the New Hampshire voters as far as you can tell?
BROWNSTEIN: Up here, I think it's been pretty much economy and healthcare, but yet what's striking about that, Lou, is even though these are the predominant concerns of voter, the candidates really haven't found that effective ways to differentiate themselves from each other on these concerns. There's a minor advantage when you look at polls toward one or the other, depending on which issue, but apart from Iraq which has fallen on the list of concerns, there really isn't a big differential between the candidates. Health care is important to voters, but it really doesn't seem to be driving their decisions.
DOBBS: Karen?
TUMULTY: Well, the concurrent event today is in the six additional U.S. soldiers however who died in Iraq. I think that national security is always there and it's, I think, going to be back in the forefront once again.
SIMON: You've heard it before, Lou, Democrats want a winner and it's trumping issues with every candidate. They want a guy who can win, who can beat President Bush. This party is still very angry with President Bush, that's why Howard Dean did well in the beginning. That's why the other candidates are doing well now.
Roger Simon, Karen Tumulty, Ron Brownstein, we thank you for being with us and enjoy the evening as they say.
Tonight's thought is on politics in this country. "Our elections are free -- it's in the results where eventually we pay." Sports caster Bill Stern.
"Hardball" host Chris Matthews is well known for giving his opinion during his show on MSNBC but Matthews chose Don Imus' "Morning Show" to really let it all out. Matthews said the Democratic presidential primary race in his opinion, quote, "sucks," end quote, now that Senator John Kerry is in the lead ahead of Howard Dean. Matthews said that's because Dean was the only candidate with, we'll say, guts to stand up to President Bush. He also said he backs Dean's presidential aspirations. Matthews also agreed with the French for opposing the war in Iraq calling it a big mistake.
Turning now to the growing debate over the president's immigration proposal. Almost two dozen Republican congressmen sent President Bush calling upon him to instead support an immigration policy that better respects this country's laws. Peter Viles reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
PETER VILE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The president's immigration reform plan promised to open a debate about this nation's immigration crisis, but it may not be the debate the president had in mind.
23 Republicans in Congress in a letter to the president writing, quote, "what amounts to an offer of amnesty to law violators has left many of our core supporters dismayed, angry and confused." Meantime, in the forum design toward such debates, the presidential campaign, there isn't much discussion at all because the leading Democrats, Senators Kerry and Edwards and Howard Dean all agree with the president that illegal immigrants should have a shot at earned legalization, all part of what one expert calls symbolic politics.
HARRY PACHON, TOMAS RIVERA POLICY INST., UNIV. OF S. CALIFORNIA: Sometimes you open up an issue and you symbolically address it and you don't really substantively take any action. I think that this is an issue that both parties may take a step back during the presidential election year and say maybe we should just defer this or have major consideration for two or three years.
VILES: The majority of Americans disagree with the president and the Democrats. A CNN/Gallup poll found 74 percent say the government should not make it easier for illegal immigrants to become U.S. citizens. Increasingly, Americans believe immigrants are driving down wages. Listen carefully to Alan Greenspan's analysis.
ALAN GREENSPAN, FEDERAL RESERVE CHAIRMAN: Developed countries, lowest-skilled workers are being priced out of the growing labor market.
VILES: He's talking about American workers being underbid in the global labor market. Some economists believe that is happening right now inside the United States. Illegal workers are bringing that global labor market with its low wages right into the United States.
(END VIDEOTAPE) VILES: This is shaping up as another of those issues where special interests, in this case, the immigration lobby and big corporations appear to have more influence than the majority of Americans -- Lou.
DOBBS: You say this is one area. Could you suggest to me an area where that's not true.
VILES: I wish there were a long list of them.
DOBBS: As do I and I'm sure everyone watching tonight. The fact is this issue is remarkable in that there is no representation. We have on the right, the left, the conservative, the liberal, the corporate interest, if you will, the special interest blocs are basically aligned on this issue, with again, hard-working men and women in this country caught square in the middle.
VILES: One key point there, when Greenspan talked, he talked about the lowest skilled workers in America being hurt by this. Those lowest field workers really are not represented.
DOBBS: Absolutely. And Pete, we thank you as always. Peter Viles.
We want to share with you the names of those Republicans in the house who signed the letter to President Bush criticizing his immigration plan. Those congressmen include Congressman Otter of Idaho, Goode of Virginia, Miller of Florida, Akin of Missouri, Jones of North Carolina, Garrett of New Jersey, Ryun of Kansas, Deal of Georgia, Tancredo of Colorado, Stearns of Florida, LaTourette of Ohio, Bartlett of Maryland, Brown-Waite of Florida, Simpson of Idaho, Wamp of Tennessee, Smith of Texas, Crane of Illinois, Duncan of Tennessee, Istook, Oklahoma, King of Iowa, Manzullo, Illinois, Rohrabacher, California, Gallegly of California.
Hundred of people rallied in Kansas today to give illegal aliens some of the same rights as American citizens. The protesters marched to the Capitol building and called upon the state senators to pass a bill that would allow illegal aliens to obtain driver's licenses. The Kansas state House narrowly passed the legislation last year. The protesters today held signs saying "immigration is an opportunity not a problem" and "we pay taxes, we want driver's licenses." The bill's opponents say it jeopardizes national security.
Coming up next here, much more on our "Broken Borders." I'll be talking with the executive director of the National Immigration Forum, Frank Sharry. He says the president's immigration plan doesn't go far enough to help illegal aliens. We'll have that and a great deal more still ahead. Please stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: My guest tonight says the millions of illegal aliens in this country are not a problem, but their lack of legal status and labor rights is. Frank Sharry is the executive director of the National Immigration Forum and represents some 200 organization associated with that. Good to have you with us, Frank.
FRANK SHARRY, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, NATIONAL IMMIGRATION FORUM: Thanks for having me, Lou.
DOBBS: The president's proposal that would give guest worker status, renewal of that status leading toward legalization. You don't think it goes far enough?
SHARRY: Well, he's got the right diagnoses. I think the prescription falls short. The diagnosis that our system is broken and we need to fix it by figuring out how to legalize the process so we can better regulate it is the right approach. The problem is he gives people temporary status but not a path to citizenship and we think that's contrary to our history of assimilation in this country.
DOBBS: Maybe as you constructed, contrary to our history of assimilation, but is it also not peculiar to you that the president and most of the critics and the proponents of immigration reform that I've talked with at least suggest that border security, absolute security at our borders is a condition precedent for any plan because if you cannot, as you say, regulate immigration that anything that you put forward simply will not work.
SHARRY: Well, that was the consensus about 15 years ago and what we've had is the biggest buildup in our border patrol in U.S. history and it's coincided with the largest increase in illegal immigration. The problem is that without a combination of effective enforcement and legal channels, we won't be able to get better control of our borders. That's the new idea that both Republicans and Democrats are pushing. It's a novel idea. It doesn't go along with the sound bites of if we just enforced the law it would work, but we have labor market realities where we have workers coming to available jobs in the United States and we have no legal channels for them to do so legally.
DOBBS: We have another issue and that is it seems to me although we've spent some considerable money and as you suggest this may be a bit of a retrograde argument on my part, permit me to indulge in it. The fact of the matter is we have a million illegal aliens crossing our borders each year. We also have a tremendous national security problem. We cannot control our borders. We cannot provide national security to those borders, why would that not, 15 years not withstanding not be a critical importance to every single person that we'd be able to control those borders?
SHARRY: It is. And that's the debate. The question is not how to open the borders. The question is how to bring immigration under the rule of law. You see if you make it impossible for a worker in Mexico to come to the United States and take a job that Americans aren't willing to do and there's no legal way to do it, you do what you've done in the last ten years, you foster smuggling, fake documents, people unwilling to cooperate with law enforcement.
DOBBS: We're really bad people aren't we? We provide this kind of...
SHARRY: The system is broken. DOBBS: That's terrible.
It's broken but let's be candid about something. You have a million people crossing that border illegally. We have 8 to 12 million illegal aliens in this country, right?
SHARRY: Yes.
DOBBS: Now, what is the -- what is that constituency that is served by ignoring border security, that is -- rewards illegal aliens who have broken laws to get into this country. What is that constituency? Is it the employers who hire illegal aliens and exploit that labor under the cry they can't find Americans to work for slave wages. I would agree that most Americans would not, but isn't that really the issue?
SHARRY: I think the issue is how do we fix the system?
DOBBS: How about this? Tom Daschle and Chuck Hill have put forward what, to me, is the most intelligent proposal that I have read in all of my years of studying immigration.
SHARRY: We agree.
DOBBS: In all respects you are ready to bring back the Hagel- Daschle proposal.
SHARRY: I'd sign on the dotted line today because it combines legal channels for workers. Legal channels for family members, effective enforcement and making sure that if workers come in they fill available jobs and get paid prevailing wages.
DOBBS: You know what the senators tell me? They can't get the bill through.
SHARRY: Well, I think there's bipartisan support. I know you trumpet the opponents of any immigration reform but I think there's enough Republicans and Democrats...
DOBBS: I trumpet what?
SHARRY: You just put up a list of Republicans who are basically saying don't do anything until we enforce the law, let's do more of what's failed for the last decade...
DOBBS: You're not suggesting they're silly people because they want to enforce a law, are you?
SHARRY: No, but if you don't create both legal channels you can't enforce a law.
DOBBS: I think it's important, Frank, that people understand who the National Immigration Forum -- your organization represents businesses, business associations, right?
SHARRY: Uh-huh. DOBBS: Labor unions.
SHARRY: Uh-huh.
DOBBS: And that's sort of an interesting constituency to come together as an advocacy of immigration.
SHARRY: That's right. Because there's bipartisan support for this to be a nation of immigrants and a nation of laws. We don't like the status quo anymore than you do. Some say the way to do it is to let's throw the army at the border. We say combine professional law enforcement, legal channels, real wages, labor rights, legal status, path to citizenship. Bring it under the rule of law. You say they've broken the law as if members of Congress have written a Bible and it shouldn't be changed to adjust the realities. These people have to update our laws.
DOBBS: Whatever our congressmen and women have written, I don't think we should call it a Bible.
SHARRY: I don't either.
DOBBS: But it is law and the fact of the matter is that there are huge issues involved in this. There are lost wages, 190 to $200 billion. There are all sorts of costs as a result of economic diffusion, that is the American taxpayer at the local, state, and national level paying for the costs that should probably be borne by the employers of those people who hired illegal aliens.
SHARRY: Look, I agree that there's problems with it. But is it the presence of hard-working immigrants who want a piece of the American dream or is it the lack of legal status, the lack of labor rights.
DOBBS: I think you've got to be honest. These are huge issues that can't be simply dismissed because, you know, because you're talking about 8 to 12 million people.
SHARRY: That's right. That's right. It's a big issue and it will be hard to solve it, but saying let's do more of the same that has failed is not going to fix the problem.
DOBBS: Absolutely it is not. And if you can get behind Hagel and Daschle, you and I got a lot to talk about.
SHARRY: Well, I'm glad to hear it, Lou. This is a new day.
DOBBS: It's a better day thanks to senators Daschle and Hagel who were taking serious steps on this issue. Frank, we hope you'll come back and we'll talk about this some more, but we have to break right now.
For a look now at some of your thoughts on the issue of "Broken Borders." Eric from Green Bay in the state of Wisconsin wrote to say, "I have supervised numerous illegal aliens who are either placed on probation or released on patrol. Can anybody tell me why we are incarcerating illegals in prison at $26,000 per year when they're not here legally to begin with? We pay for their education, health care, and now prison time. At least they will find a job upon release with President Bush's proposal to retrain released inmates."
Jan Herron of Evergreen, Colorado. "Geez, I'm so elated to learn that Mexico's president Vicente Fox gave his stamp of approval to President' Bush's open borders immigration plan. I've spent many sleepless nights worried sick that Fox might get mad and totally cut off our only constant supply of poverty."
Many of you wrote about yesterday's comments by Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan talking about the acceptable pain that results from the loss of millions of jobs to cheap overseas labor markets. B.J. in Wichita, Kansas. "I think every American should thank President Bush and Mr. Greenspan for their thoughtfulness to retrain every unemployed American. Now they must decide on what type of retraining. I have some suggestions. Engineers can be Walmart greeters. All IT professionals can now learn to be sales clerks and for us poor fools who are blue-collar workers, well, there is no hope."
Glenn Garcia of Del Rio, Texas. "Mr. Greenspan's explanation that the exodus of jobs will be replaced with other jobs lends no support to Americans who have lost or are facing the loss of their jobs. He also failed to say of what quality those replacement jobs might be."
And Cathy Henshaw of Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. "Retrain? Apparently Mr. Greenspan is unaware of the tens of thousands of unemployed recent college graduates. How much more does he suggest they borrow to upgrade their newly acquired diplomas and retrain?"
Send us your thoughts, please, at loudobbs@CNN.com.
Coming up next the northeast bracing for heavy snow, hundreds of thousands of people on the east coast are already without power.
In New York City today prosecutors call Martha Stewart a liar. We'll tell you what the defense called the prosecution. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: A deadly wave of winter weather gripping much of the country tonight. Dangerous conditions have already claimed 47 lives. Storm warnings are in effect from Washington state to Washington D.C. Tonight this deadly storm taking aim at the northeast.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS (voice-over): Slick, icy roads sent one car skidding across a Tulsa, Oklahoma, highway. It crashed into a stopped car and slammed into its owner, nearly sending the man over the edge of a bridge. The man escaped uninjured.
The same dangerous blast that hit Tulsa carried freezing rain and snow as far east as South Carolina. There rescuers pulled a woman through the sun roof of her SUV after it skittered off an ice-covered bridge into a swamp. She was injured, but alive. In Minnesota, more than 27 inches of snow blanket the city of Duluth. Already the third largest storm in more than 130 years and more snow is on the way. Across the Midwest and much of the eastern seaboard hundreds of thousands of people are without power tonight. And traffic accidents have claimed dozens of lives.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: As far as the roadways being iced, this is the worst I've seen in a long time.
DOBBS: The National Weather Service says the worst is yet to come, more snow is expected to hit the Midwest tonight and meanwhile the northeast is bracing for a powerful storm system tearing up the coast. Freezing rain, ice and as much as 15 inches of snow are expected.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: Airports from Georgia to New York already experiencing delays of several hours and in the nation's capital, the federal government forced to shut down some offices.
More showers are possible in Hawaii tonight after some wild weather over the past few days. There a tornado, the length of four football fields, touched down in central Oahu. The National Weather Service said it received reports of almost a dozen funnel clouds in the same area. There were no reports of injuries or damage to any homes.
Well here in New York City today the federal government opened its case against Martha Stewart, charged with securities fraud, obstruction of justice. In opening statements today, federal prosecutors called Stewart a liar who knowingly broke the law. Her attorneys said the government's case is based on speculation. Joining me now, CNN legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin who was in court today. It sounds like quite a show.
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: It was a great day. It was the biggest federal courtroom in New York, every seat taken and it was so quiet in there the only sound you could hear was the scratch of the courtroom artist chalk before Karen Seymour got up to speak, who spoke for the prosecution
DOBBS: And basically calling the defendant a liar.
TOOBIN: Repeatedly, liar, liar, liar. She must have said it five, six times and her opening statement was very low key, very professional and very simple. This is actually not a complicated case against Martha Stewart. She sold this stock on December 27, 2001. Did she sell it as she said because she had a preexisting agreement to sell it at $60 a share or was she tipped that the CEO of Imclone was selling? That's the whole case right there.
DOBBS: And that is classic insider trading. She also faces a civil charge for insider trading, but not a criminal trial. What is your best assessment? Is the defense right as it is suggesting that it's all speculation on the part of the prosecutors? It took a year and a half to bring this case. A lot of publicity. The judge ruled that the defense can't talk about her celebrity status and the possible motives?
TOOBIN: Robert Morvillo showed that despite what a judge instructs you to do he'll do exactly what he wants in that courtroom. He's a commanding figure and he gave a wonderful opening statement just as the prosecutor did and what he focused on was a very interesting series of events that took place before this transaction showing that Martha Stewart had been doing a lot of selling of her stocks, up to and including the Imclone sale. That this was not an isolated sale. That it was part of a pattern of sales that she planned for tax and other reasons.
DOBBS: The famous year-end selling.
TOOBIN: That's exactly right. That was a big part of the argument today.
DOBBS: Great drama, the judge trying to constrain the defense in this to what end?
TOOBIN: Well, I think she doesn't want to turn this into some sort of referendum. Judge Cedarbaum, the judge doesn't want to turn this into a referendum on Martha Stewart's popularity, although Morvillo worked in the fact that this case has brought in the name of the Department of Justice led by John Ashcroft, not a popular figure here. He got a little bit of his politics in there. And the key witness in the case, Douglas Faneuil, the assistant to the stockbroker testifies first thing Thursday morning.
DOBBS: I assume that the defense attorney leading the wait here understands that the jury can also be Republicans as well as Democrats.
TOOBIN: Can be, but the odds in New York is that they're not.
DOBBS: What's the next step?
TOOBIN: No court tomorrow because of the snow. The key witness on Thursday. The accomplice alleged.
DOBBS: Look forward to it, Jeffrey. Talk to you then.
On Wall Street, stocks down from their two and a half year highs. The Dow off 92 points, almost 93 points. The Nasdaq down almost 38 points. The S&P 500 dropping 11.32. Word tonight of more big job cuts from corporate America. Christine Romans now -- Christine.
CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: This time it's Kraft that's gong to close 20 plants, cut 6,000 jobs, 1,300 of those jobs will be gone by the end of the first quarter. 6 percent overall of its workforce. It's a bloodletting to take place over the next three years. Shuttered plants include Canton, New York, Farmdale, Ohio, and others. This just a week after Kodak announced 15,000 job cuts. Meanwhile, Lou, the conference board reports more people say it's harder to find a job today than a year ago and fewer people are reporting that jobs are plentiful.
DOBBS: Fewer jobs are plentiful. We know the jobs that are replacing those lost are about on average 30 percent less in pay, not a happy situation, maybe that job creation will kick in soon. Walmart starting to meet resistance in its expansion plans. Imagine that.
ROMANS: In California, some feisty community governments, Lou, are trying to prevent Walmart from putting these supercenters in. Alameda county got sued by Walmart last night, Lou. Walmart says it wants to go in there and it wants to lower prices for food, for Alameda county residents, it wants to create some new jobs. Alameda county is not buying it. They want to keep competition. They don't want to lower grocery store workers' wages and they're fighting.
DOBBS: You can just call some of those big Walmarts, Walmart City.
ROMANS: Exactly.
DOBBS: Christine, thank you very much. Christine Romans.
Coming up next, we'll take a look at the nominations for the Academy awards but first an update on the list of companies that our staff has confirmed to be exporting America today. These companies either sending American jobs to cheap labor markets overseas or choosing to employ the cheap foreign labor instead of American workers.
Tonight's additions include pen maker AT Cross, Bumble Bee, Equifax, Key Corp. and Starkist. Those names, one list at CNN.com/lou if you want to take a look at the entire at the entire list of names that grow and grow and grow.
We'll be right back. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Now the results of our poll tonight. 9 percent of you say you have a lot of confidence in U.S. intelligence agencies. 22 percent say some. 27 percent, a little. None at all, 42 percent.
Turning now the big race. The race for the Academy awards. Oscar nomination announced early this morning in Los Angeles. The nominees for best picture are "The Lord of the Rings: Return of the King," "Master and Commander," "The Far Side of the World," "Mystic River," "Sea Biscuit" and "Lost in Translation."
The third installment of "The Lord of the Rings" trilogy claimed the most nominations, 11, including one for best director, Peter Jackson. "Master and Commander" starring Russell Crowe came in second, ten Oscar nominations. "Seabiscuit" based on the novel about the real life adventures of a 1930s racehorse and those who took him to victory and he them, tied for third with seven nominations. "Cold Mountain," "Mystic River," "Pirates of the Caribbean" also earning multiple nominations. The Oscars, by the way, Sunday, February 29. That's our show for tonight. Thanks for being with us. For all of us here, good night from New York. "Anderson Cooper" coming up next.
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LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR: Tonight: a heavy voter turnout in New Hampshire. We'll have live reports on all the major candidates. Our panel of top political journalists will give us their predictions for the outcome.
In "Broken Borders" tonight, one issue you haven't heard the candidates talk about on the campaign trail, the massive influx of illegal aliens into this country. We'll have a special report on why.
In "Exporting America," it's not only manufacturing and technology jobs that are heading overseas to cheap labor markets. Hundreds of thousands of highly paid legal jobs are also being shipped overseas.
And snow, ice and freezing rain have brought chaos to much of the country. Nearly 50 people have been killed, from Kansas to the Carolinas. Hundreds of thousands of people tonight are without power.
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT for Tuesday, January 27. Here now, Lou Dobbs.
DOBBS: Good evening.
In New Hampshire, it's two hours before the polls close. Voters have turned out in huge numbers to cast their ballots. John Kerry is leading the pre-election polls.
We have three reports now from New Hampshire, Kelly Wallace with the Kerry campaign, Candy Crowley with the Dean campaign. Suzanne Malveaux is with John Edwards.
We begin with you, Kelly Wallace, in Manchester.
KELLY WALLACE, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Lou, we have just learned that John Kerry will be doing seven local interviews with New Hampshire and Boston stations, these interviews scheduled just a short time ago.
One aide telling CNN the senator wanted to come down here and give one last push. Going into this day, aides said that, despite the senator's lead in the polls, they definitely expected a tight race and that they were taking nothing for granted. And that is why we saw the senator out not once, but twice today, greeting voters on the streets, trying to encourage them to vote his way.
The senator facing two challenges, No. 1, winning this primary, but also meeting expectations, since he's been leading in the polls all week. Earlier today, CNN's Bill Hemmer asked him if it would be a disappointing showing if he doesn't win big here.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. JOHN KERRY (D-MA), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: My gosh, three weeks ago, you guys were writing me off. This is the comeback trail. If I win here, I think that's enormous. And I'll take one point, given where the campaign was judged to be by most people in the media a couple of months ago. I think we've got a lot of energy here. And I'm not looking at polls. I'm out there looking for votes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WALLACE: And earlier, the decorated Vietnam veteran was out there working the phones, sitting alongside other Vietnam veterans, trying to urge people to go to the polls. Aides say that the so- called Veterans Brigade was very successful for them in Iowa, and they're hoping with similar success with veterans here in New Hampshire.
This campaign obviously trying to win in New Hampshire, but also looking beyond to the seven states in the next round of primaries, and caucuses and aides saying that, beginning tomorrow, the senator will have ads running in all of those seven states -- Lou.
DOBBS: Kelly, thank you.
Later, I'll be talking with Senator Kerry about his campaign in New Hampshire and those challenges that Kelly referenced that lie ahead.
Howard Dean launched a last-minute attack on John Kerry today, telling Kerry to stop whining.
Candy Crowley is in Manchester.
Candy, are Dean's tactics helping him here in the final hours?
CANDY CROWLEY, CNN SR. POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, I tell you, in the final hours, if it's about bringing out the people who are drawn to you anyway, that doesn't hurt him.
You know, as you know, Howard Dean has been hit extremely hard over the past week post-Iowa, post that concession speech. And they've been pretty -- in the days following Iowa, it was a fairly mellow campaign, a fairly mellow candidate, not a lot of aggressive talk. It's only since yesterday and again this morning that we've heard some of that pushback to Kerry. So, as far as those adamant and passionate supporters of Howard Dean, it probably helps.
DOBBS: Candy, thank you very much.
Well, it looks as though Dean will finish in second place. John Edwards would obviously love to pull off another surprise finish.
Suzanne Malveaux is with the Edwards campaign in Merrimack, New Hampshire -- Suzanne.
SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Lou, that is certainly what he is hoping for.
Edwards is with his family, anxiously awaiting the results tonight. And his camp says they insist that the polls really don't reflect what has been going on, on the ground. And that's been the hundreds and hundreds of people that have come out to support him. Just within the last week or so, we've seen those numbers close.
His close-the-deal strategy has been about really taking advantage of his personal appeal, as well as his communication skills to give a vision of one America, a positive, optimistic vision. He's also been talking about something as well. And that is race relations. It has played well with some of the audiences in New Hampshire, as well as Iowa. It is bound to have more of an impact in South Carolina, as well as Saint Louis, Missouri, where there's a significant African-American community.
Now, Edwards has been dogged by criticism from some of his opponents that his one term in the Senate does not give him the kind of experience that he needs in terms of military and foreign affairs to be president. Edwards disagrees. And what his camp is hoping for tonight is a strong finish, a third-place finish.
They'll be happy with that. But they're already looking forward. They're looking forward to South Carolina. That's his birthplace. Polls show that he leads now in South Carolina at 21 percent. They're looking at Missouri as well, a key battleground state. That is where he got the endorsement of the lieutenant governor.
His schedule is going to be very tight, Lou. We are talking about three states tomorrow, South Carolina, Oklahoma, as well as Missouri. We are told he's going to be visiting in the week to come an African-American church. He's going to be participating in the presidential debate, of course. And then there will be a fund-raiser at the end of the week by Hootie and the Blowfish -- Lou.
DOBBS: Suzanne, thank you very much.
And, obviously, this contest, with so many undecided voters going into the election, anything could happen this evening. But two specific candidates are in a fight to avoid what appears to be fifth place. They are Joe Lieberman and Clark.
We begin with Jeanne Meserve with the Lieberman campaign.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JEANNE MESERVE, CNN HOMELAND SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: In public, at least, Joe Lieberman has been the very picture of an optimistic candidate. Today, he made a number of stops around the Manchester area, trying to persuade voters to side with him.
Now, polls going into today's voting showed him in contention for third place with Wesley Clark and John Edwards. He says he doesn't need that third-place finish in order to continue with his campaign. But he has put in an extraordinary effort here, even moving to the state of New Hampshire. He's portrayed himself here as the most moderate Democrat in this race, the one who can persuade independents and disgruntled Republicans to vote with the Democrats in November.
But that has put him to the right of the base of the New Hampshire Democratic Party. And many say, what he needs today is for independents to turn out in large numbers and for independents to vote overwhelmingly for him.
Jeanne Meserve, CNN, Manchester, New Hampshire.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DAN LOTHIAN, CNN BOSTON BUREAU CHIEF: I'm Dan Lothian with the Clark campaign.
The retired general spent the morning out on the sidewalks in Manchester, New Hampshire, meeting and greeting voters, one final push to sway the independent and undecided voters. Clark is trying to recapture some momentum, after impressive numbers in the polls a few weeks ago faded. Late tonight, Clark embarks on his True Values tour, which, over the next two days, will take the campaign to South Carolina, New Mexico, Arizona and Oklahoma.
Clark spent the afternoon doing satellite interviews with TV stations in those February 3 and February 10 states. The campaign says he will continue to run as the outsider who can beat President Bush.
Dan Lothian, CNN, Bedford, New Hampshire.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: Coming right up, we'll have a lot more for you from New Hampshire. I'll be talking with Senator John Kerry. And our panel of top political journalists will be offering their assessments of the issues and the prospects of the winner.
Also, six American soldiers and two members of a CNN news crew killed today in Iraq. Pentagon correspondent Barbara Starr will report.
In "Exporting America" tonight, hundreds of thousands of highly- paid American legal jobs are being shipped overseas to cheap labor markets. We'll have that report.
And Martha Stewart's trial finally under way. Our legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin in court. He'll give us his assessment of the first day.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) DOBBS: A bloody day in Iraq. Insurgents killed six American soldiers in two separate bomb attacks near Baghdad. Terrorists also killed two of our CNN colleagues today. They died when a gunman opened fire on their convoy south of Baghdad.
Pentagon correspondent Barbara Starr reports -- Barbara.
BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Indeed, Lou, a very sad day here at CNN, two of our colleagues shot and killed in Iraq, another wounded, when their convoy, their road convoy, came under attack south of Baghdad.
These are the two that we lost, producer/translator Duraid Isa Mohammed and driver Yasser Khatab, shot and killed by unknown assailants. Our CNN cameraman, Scott McWhinnie, suffered a grazing bullet wound to the head. He is recovering. Our correspondent Michael Holmes, who so many of our viewers have seen on television, and Shirley Hung, Washington producer and friend, escaped injury in that attack, of course, some of the many journalists who risk their lives every day to bring the story of Iraq to viewers around the world. But these two indeed will be missed.
Now, of course, for U.S. soldiers, the risks they face every day in Iraq, another very violent day. West of Baghdad, near Khaldiya, in a roadside blast, three U.S. soldiers and an Iraqi killed, four wounded, this area, of course, much of the heartland of the resistance movement. In fact, today, when a quick-reaction force came to the scene to try and help, additional gunfire broke out. And tonight late word, another three soldiers killed in yet another roadside attack south of Baghdad -- Lou.
DOBBS: Barbara, thank you -- Barbara Starr from the Pentagon.
President Bush today repeated his view that Saddam Hussein was a grave and gathering threat to the world before the war in Iraq. President Bush also said he has great competence in the U.S. intelligence community, even though intelligence experts have found no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: There is no doubt in my mind the world is a better place without Saddam Hussein. America is more secure. The world is safer. And the people of Iraq are free.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: Which brings us to the topic of tonight's poll. The question: How much confidence do you have in U.S. intelligence agencies, a lot, some, a little or none? Please cast your vote at CNN.com/Lou. We'll have the results for you later in the broadcast.
There was a significant step forward today in the U.S. and British efforts to dismantle Libya's nuclear weapons program. A U.S. transport aircraft loaded with 55,000 pounds of Libyan nuclear components landed in Knoxville, Tennessee, today. That equipment includes parts for centrifuges and guidance systems for long-range missiles. The components will be unloaded and destroyed at a nearby nuclear facility, most likely the Oak Ridge nuclear weapons plant.
Private security guards at Oak Ridge were remarkably successful in a recent anti-terrorist exercise, far too successful, in fact, according to government investigators. Those security guards repelled successfully four simulated terrorist attacks. But, it turns out, the security guards cheated. The Energy Department says the guards' supervisors saw plans for the mock attacks before the drill took place.
The department said it's taken action to improve security. The security company, Wackenhut, is still providing guards for Oak Ridge. The company said security today is better than ever.
Coming up next here, our special report, "Exporting America." Another industry is now at risk of losing hundreds of thousands of jobs to cheap labor markets overseas. We'll have that report for you.
We'll, of course, be going to New Hampshire, where the weather is cold tonight. The race for the Democratic primary is doing nothing, if not heating up. We'll be talking with our panel of top political journalists -- all of that, a great deal more, still ahead here.
Please stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: As we have reported extensively on this show and continue to do, high-quality American jobs are being shipped to cheap overseas labor markets at a staggering rate.
Tonight, in our special report, "Exporting America," a disturbing report on one industry that's turning to cheap foreign labor and what that decision could end up costing American citizens.
Kitty Pilgrim reports on the exportation of the legal profession.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KITTY PILGRIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): First, it was manual labor, then service jobs. Now it's legal work being shipped overseas to cut costs.
JOHN MCCARTHY, FORRESTER RESEARCH: You're not going to see lawyers, you know, using video-conferencing to argue a case from India in a courtroom in the United States. But there are the back-office- type operations, the research-intensive tasks.
PILGRIM: Market research firm Forrester Research predicts, in the next 11 years, some 8 percent of law jobs will shift to low-cost countries. Paralegal work and work done by junior lawyers is particularly vulnerable to offshoring. Experts say large legal firms, who pay young associates high salaries, are looking to cut costs. DAVID WILKINS, HARVARD UNIVERSITY: The more work that is taken away from them, either by being given to paralegals or sending it offshore to contract professionals in places like India, the less opportunity there will be for young lawyers to be trained.
PILGRIM: Richard Maltz, active in the legal profession, says that safeguards have to be put in place.
RICHARD MALTZ, ASSN. OF THE BAR OF THE CITY OF NEW YORK: The quality of the work has to be supervised. You have to make sure that nonlawyers aren't performing legal work. And also very important for lawyers is confidentiality.
PILGRIM: Legal research and publishing has already discovered the cost-cutting benefits. This young woman, who asked us to disguise her appearance and voice, is a lawyer for West. West is a legal information company based in Minnesota and has a pilot program where some work is done in India. She says people in the office are concerned.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They're trying to really cut costs, you know. How is this going to affect us? Is this going to be something that, later on down the line, they're going to be looking to cut our jobs, too?
PILGRIM: She wonders, with this trend, who will be willing to invest time and tuition to earn a legal degree?
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: Now, some firms get around the issue by saying that foreign legal teams are supervised by U.S.-based lawyers. Experts say, legal clients, for now, are just looking at the reduced fees they are charged -- Lou.
DOBBS: The total number of jobs that are projected to be lost?
PILGRIM: It will be 8 percent by 2015.
DOBBS: Of lawyers.
PILGRIM: Eight percent of all legal jobs -- yes, by Forrester, which is a shocking number.
DOBBS: Well, not as shocking as manufacturing and a number of other jobs, high-value jobs, in this country.
Kitty, thank you very much.
Coming up next here, there is still time to vote in the nation's first primary. We'll be heading back to New Hampshire. We'll be talking with three of the country's top political journalists. And some Republicans have now banded together against President Bush's immigration proposal.
And prosecutors today, in the first day of the Martha Stewart trial, say she lied. The defense says it's all speculation. We'll have the latest on the case and a great deal more.
Please stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Voters in New Hampshire have about another hour and a half to vote in the nation's first presidential primary.
The seven Democratic candidates are campaigning right up to the last minute. I am joined now by three of the country's top political journalists, Ron Brownstein, national political correspondent for "The L.A. Times." He joins us tonight from Manchester. From Washington, Karen Tumulty, national political correspondent, "TIME" magazine. Roger Simon, political editor for "U.S. News & World Report."
Good to have you all with us.
It looks as though, at least in the pre-election polls, that Kerry is going to win. Is there a perceived wisdom amongst the three of you that that could be anything but true?
Roger?
ROGER SIMON, POLITICAL EDITOR, "U.S. NEWS & WORLD REPORT": There are polls and there are polls.
Kerry came come out of Iowa with a large lead in New Hampshire. That lead has been whittled away by Howard Dean. And I don't think we know who who's going to win yet. If Howard Dean does manage to pull off an even close second or go ahead and win, he will be the comeback kid. It will be a huge story. Kerry probably needs to win big just to maintain the expectations that he's had all week long.
DOBBS: I'm getting confused, Karen. Who's the comeback kid here? Is it Dean or is it Kerry?
(LAUGHTER)
KAREN TUMULTY, NATIONAL POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT, "TIME": Well, you know, it's really funny.
I just talked to Dean headquarters within the last hour. And they were sitting there scratching their heads, trying to come up with a synonym for comeback. The phrase off life support probably doesn't have quite the ring they're looking for.
(LAUGHTER)
TUMULTY: But the fact is, if in fact it's closer than it looked a few days ago, if, you know, say, it's within five, six points, there are in fact three tickets out of New Hampshire. The race is less clear even than it was before. And who knows what to make of next Tuesday, when it moves on to seven states.
DOBBS: Seven states.
Ron, is it your sense that we'll see the number of candidates winnow down before as a result of tonight, and, if so, by how much?
RON BROWNSTEIN, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: I think they're all talking tough about staying in. We'll see whether -- Joe Lieberman, for instance, is saying they're going to stay in no matter what.
On the broader point of what's happening here, Lou, I said to you last night, I thought that, at the end of race, there was more energy on the Dean side than at some of the events I went to with Kerry.
DOBBS: Right.
BROWNSTEIN: I think it was Woody Allen who said, a relationship is like a shark. It's either moving forward or it's dying. I feel the same way about political campaigns.
You really have to be driving a message. You have to be driving a message and making a point in order to sustain momentum. And I think Kerry may do fine here, but I think that there's -- but it's partly because he's a neighbor and he's a comfortable place to land. I don't think that, in this last week, he really had a clear driving message. He may have allowed Dean, who's done some reconfiguring of his own message, to get back closer than Kerry wants.
DOBBS: Well, John Kerry -- just to support your point, Senator Kerry, who was supposed to join us here in just a couple of minutes, his campaign just told us that he's going to go out and still campaign and not take time off to talk with us tonight.
BROWNSTEIN: Well, there you go.
DOBBS: So there may be much to what you say there, Ron, as always.
Let me ask you, in the case of General Clark -- Wes Clark seems to be at one point gaining momentum, then losing momentum. What is his future and what is his likely performance tonight?
BROWNSTEIN: Well, maybe I'll start there.
Look, in the Army, nothing is prized more than the ability to hold ground once you take it. And that's been the problem for Wes Clark here. It's an ominous trend for his campaign. He was as high as the mid 20s when everybody else was in Iowa. When they got here, he had a very bad week. He said a whole series of things that he probably wishes he didn't, generals and lieutenants, had problems with abortion, Michael Moore calling President Bush a deserter and Wesley Clark not knowing what to say.
So he's eroded. They really need February 3. They've spent a lot of money. They bought ads last week, Lou, in 25 different markets around the country. They've put a lot of money into Oklahoma, Arizona, South Carolina. I suspect they're really going to make a big push in Oklahoma, New Mexico and Arizona. And, frankly, they need to win something, or else it is going to be very hard for them to stay in the race after February 3.
SIMON: Lou, I think General Clark has been hampered most of all by his late start into the race.
None of these candidates who are good now on the stump were good in the beginning. Even John Edwards, who may be the best on the stump right now, wasn't that great a year ago. It's a skill that you pick up as you go along. It takes some time. But General Clark started late and he is still finding himself as a candidate. He is still dealing with the hour-by-hour, minute-by-minute scrutiny of the press.
He's still dealing with delivering a stump speech, which he still reads from notes from the lectern. And it may just be too late for him. As Ron said, he has to win somewhere and keep winning, because he's going to be facing two people coming out of New Hampshire who are going to have a lot of wind behind their sails.
TUMULTY: The other problem he's got, too, and the other thing that he needs is a resurgent Howard Dean.
A major rationale for his candidacy, at least in the minds of a lot of Democrats, was that he was the alternative to Dean. When you've lost that, suddenly, people actually start listening to what he's saying, as opposed to looking at his resume. And that I think has in fact, as Roger said, been his problem over the last week.
DOBBS: What is your sense of the turnout there tonight? We know it's heavy. Do you have any sense of how heavy this turnout is in New Hampshire and what its likely impact could be, Ron?
BROWNSTEIN: Well, I don't know exactly. I'm getting kind of mixed reports.
I think it will be a good turnout. One thing, this is more of a question than an answer. Howard Dean had I think maybe more ability here to recover than elsewhere, both because it's a very favorable electorate for hem. It's dominated by the kind of upscale college graduates who have been most sympathetic to him. But, also, Lou, he spent a lot of time campaigning here. He had a lot of personal relationships with a lot of voters who were willing as the week went on perhaps to overlook the questions that were raised in his speech Monday night and, indeed, in the weeks up to that.
I do wonder, as you move beyond New Hampshire, to places like Oklahoma, Arizona, South Carolina, where his polls have been falling, and, obviously, the intimacy of the relationship is not the same, will they give him the kind of second look that many people here seem to do? It's a critical question for his campaign moving forward this next week.
(CROSSTALK)
SIMON: I think Ron makes a good point, Lou. Even before his defeat in Iowa, his aides, his top aides, were saying that, while on the issues, Iowa was a good state for Dean -- the issue being the war -- on demographics, Iowa was not a good state for him. It was an older population, the second oldest population in the United States.
And it had a low Internet use among the population. Howard Dean does well in younger, more upscale states where there's a lot of Internet use. And on February 3, he's going to be running into some states which are not natural Dean states.
TUMULTY: Although I would, at this point, say two words here, Judy Dean.
I think we're going to be seeing some more of Mrs. Dean. And if I were a patient of hers right now, I would probably be looking into rescheduling any appointments I have with her over the next couple of weeks.
(LAUGHTER)
(CROSSTALK)
BROWNSTEIN: At least the next week.
(LAUGHTER)
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: Well, as you all remind us here, thankfully, each week, politics are not just about electability or appraisal of personality, but really substantive political issues.
Which is the most important issue? What has, in your judgment, at least, resonated best with the New Hampshire voters as far as you can tell?
BROWNSTEIN: Up here, I think it's been pretty much economy and healthcare, but yet what's striking about that, Lou, is even though these are the predominant concerns of voter, the candidates really haven't found that effective ways to differentiate themselves from each other on these concerns. There's a minor advantage when you look at polls toward one or the other, depending on which issue, but apart from Iraq which has fallen on the list of concerns, there really isn't a big differential between the candidates. Health care is important to voters, but it really doesn't seem to be driving their decisions.
DOBBS: Karen?
TUMULTY: Well, the concurrent event today is in the six additional U.S. soldiers however who died in Iraq. I think that national security is always there and it's, I think, going to be back in the forefront once again.
SIMON: You've heard it before, Lou, Democrats want a winner and it's trumping issues with every candidate. They want a guy who can win, who can beat President Bush. This party is still very angry with President Bush, that's why Howard Dean did well in the beginning. That's why the other candidates are doing well now.
Roger Simon, Karen Tumulty, Ron Brownstein, we thank you for being with us and enjoy the evening as they say.
Tonight's thought is on politics in this country. "Our elections are free -- it's in the results where eventually we pay." Sports caster Bill Stern.
"Hardball" host Chris Matthews is well known for giving his opinion during his show on MSNBC but Matthews chose Don Imus' "Morning Show" to really let it all out. Matthews said the Democratic presidential primary race in his opinion, quote, "sucks," end quote, now that Senator John Kerry is in the lead ahead of Howard Dean. Matthews said that's because Dean was the only candidate with, we'll say, guts to stand up to President Bush. He also said he backs Dean's presidential aspirations. Matthews also agreed with the French for opposing the war in Iraq calling it a big mistake.
Turning now to the growing debate over the president's immigration proposal. Almost two dozen Republican congressmen sent President Bush calling upon him to instead support an immigration policy that better respects this country's laws. Peter Viles reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
PETER VILE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The president's immigration reform plan promised to open a debate about this nation's immigration crisis, but it may not be the debate the president had in mind.
23 Republicans in Congress in a letter to the president writing, quote, "what amounts to an offer of amnesty to law violators has left many of our core supporters dismayed, angry and confused." Meantime, in the forum design toward such debates, the presidential campaign, there isn't much discussion at all because the leading Democrats, Senators Kerry and Edwards and Howard Dean all agree with the president that illegal immigrants should have a shot at earned legalization, all part of what one expert calls symbolic politics.
HARRY PACHON, TOMAS RIVERA POLICY INST., UNIV. OF S. CALIFORNIA: Sometimes you open up an issue and you symbolically address it and you don't really substantively take any action. I think that this is an issue that both parties may take a step back during the presidential election year and say maybe we should just defer this or have major consideration for two or three years.
VILES: The majority of Americans disagree with the president and the Democrats. A CNN/Gallup poll found 74 percent say the government should not make it easier for illegal immigrants to become U.S. citizens. Increasingly, Americans believe immigrants are driving down wages. Listen carefully to Alan Greenspan's analysis.
ALAN GREENSPAN, FEDERAL RESERVE CHAIRMAN: Developed countries, lowest-skilled workers are being priced out of the growing labor market.
VILES: He's talking about American workers being underbid in the global labor market. Some economists believe that is happening right now inside the United States. Illegal workers are bringing that global labor market with its low wages right into the United States.
(END VIDEOTAPE) VILES: This is shaping up as another of those issues where special interests, in this case, the immigration lobby and big corporations appear to have more influence than the majority of Americans -- Lou.
DOBBS: You say this is one area. Could you suggest to me an area where that's not true.
VILES: I wish there were a long list of them.
DOBBS: As do I and I'm sure everyone watching tonight. The fact is this issue is remarkable in that there is no representation. We have on the right, the left, the conservative, the liberal, the corporate interest, if you will, the special interest blocs are basically aligned on this issue, with again, hard-working men and women in this country caught square in the middle.
VILES: One key point there, when Greenspan talked, he talked about the lowest skilled workers in America being hurt by this. Those lowest field workers really are not represented.
DOBBS: Absolutely. And Pete, we thank you as always. Peter Viles.
We want to share with you the names of those Republicans in the house who signed the letter to President Bush criticizing his immigration plan. Those congressmen include Congressman Otter of Idaho, Goode of Virginia, Miller of Florida, Akin of Missouri, Jones of North Carolina, Garrett of New Jersey, Ryun of Kansas, Deal of Georgia, Tancredo of Colorado, Stearns of Florida, LaTourette of Ohio, Bartlett of Maryland, Brown-Waite of Florida, Simpson of Idaho, Wamp of Tennessee, Smith of Texas, Crane of Illinois, Duncan of Tennessee, Istook, Oklahoma, King of Iowa, Manzullo, Illinois, Rohrabacher, California, Gallegly of California.
Hundred of people rallied in Kansas today to give illegal aliens some of the same rights as American citizens. The protesters marched to the Capitol building and called upon the state senators to pass a bill that would allow illegal aliens to obtain driver's licenses. The Kansas state House narrowly passed the legislation last year. The protesters today held signs saying "immigration is an opportunity not a problem" and "we pay taxes, we want driver's licenses." The bill's opponents say it jeopardizes national security.
Coming up next here, much more on our "Broken Borders." I'll be talking with the executive director of the National Immigration Forum, Frank Sharry. He says the president's immigration plan doesn't go far enough to help illegal aliens. We'll have that and a great deal more still ahead. Please stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: My guest tonight says the millions of illegal aliens in this country are not a problem, but their lack of legal status and labor rights is. Frank Sharry is the executive director of the National Immigration Forum and represents some 200 organization associated with that. Good to have you with us, Frank.
FRANK SHARRY, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, NATIONAL IMMIGRATION FORUM: Thanks for having me, Lou.
DOBBS: The president's proposal that would give guest worker status, renewal of that status leading toward legalization. You don't think it goes far enough?
SHARRY: Well, he's got the right diagnoses. I think the prescription falls short. The diagnosis that our system is broken and we need to fix it by figuring out how to legalize the process so we can better regulate it is the right approach. The problem is he gives people temporary status but not a path to citizenship and we think that's contrary to our history of assimilation in this country.
DOBBS: Maybe as you constructed, contrary to our history of assimilation, but is it also not peculiar to you that the president and most of the critics and the proponents of immigration reform that I've talked with at least suggest that border security, absolute security at our borders is a condition precedent for any plan because if you cannot, as you say, regulate immigration that anything that you put forward simply will not work.
SHARRY: Well, that was the consensus about 15 years ago and what we've had is the biggest buildup in our border patrol in U.S. history and it's coincided with the largest increase in illegal immigration. The problem is that without a combination of effective enforcement and legal channels, we won't be able to get better control of our borders. That's the new idea that both Republicans and Democrats are pushing. It's a novel idea. It doesn't go along with the sound bites of if we just enforced the law it would work, but we have labor market realities where we have workers coming to available jobs in the United States and we have no legal channels for them to do so legally.
DOBBS: We have another issue and that is it seems to me although we've spent some considerable money and as you suggest this may be a bit of a retrograde argument on my part, permit me to indulge in it. The fact of the matter is we have a million illegal aliens crossing our borders each year. We also have a tremendous national security problem. We cannot control our borders. We cannot provide national security to those borders, why would that not, 15 years not withstanding not be a critical importance to every single person that we'd be able to control those borders?
SHARRY: It is. And that's the debate. The question is not how to open the borders. The question is how to bring immigration under the rule of law. You see if you make it impossible for a worker in Mexico to come to the United States and take a job that Americans aren't willing to do and there's no legal way to do it, you do what you've done in the last ten years, you foster smuggling, fake documents, people unwilling to cooperate with law enforcement.
DOBBS: We're really bad people aren't we? We provide this kind of...
SHARRY: The system is broken. DOBBS: That's terrible.
It's broken but let's be candid about something. You have a million people crossing that border illegally. We have 8 to 12 million illegal aliens in this country, right?
SHARRY: Yes.
DOBBS: Now, what is the -- what is that constituency that is served by ignoring border security, that is -- rewards illegal aliens who have broken laws to get into this country. What is that constituency? Is it the employers who hire illegal aliens and exploit that labor under the cry they can't find Americans to work for slave wages. I would agree that most Americans would not, but isn't that really the issue?
SHARRY: I think the issue is how do we fix the system?
DOBBS: How about this? Tom Daschle and Chuck Hill have put forward what, to me, is the most intelligent proposal that I have read in all of my years of studying immigration.
SHARRY: We agree.
DOBBS: In all respects you are ready to bring back the Hagel- Daschle proposal.
SHARRY: I'd sign on the dotted line today because it combines legal channels for workers. Legal channels for family members, effective enforcement and making sure that if workers come in they fill available jobs and get paid prevailing wages.
DOBBS: You know what the senators tell me? They can't get the bill through.
SHARRY: Well, I think there's bipartisan support. I know you trumpet the opponents of any immigration reform but I think there's enough Republicans and Democrats...
DOBBS: I trumpet what?
SHARRY: You just put up a list of Republicans who are basically saying don't do anything until we enforce the law, let's do more of what's failed for the last decade...
DOBBS: You're not suggesting they're silly people because they want to enforce a law, are you?
SHARRY: No, but if you don't create both legal channels you can't enforce a law.
DOBBS: I think it's important, Frank, that people understand who the National Immigration Forum -- your organization represents businesses, business associations, right?
SHARRY: Uh-huh. DOBBS: Labor unions.
SHARRY: Uh-huh.
DOBBS: And that's sort of an interesting constituency to come together as an advocacy of immigration.
SHARRY: That's right. Because there's bipartisan support for this to be a nation of immigrants and a nation of laws. We don't like the status quo anymore than you do. Some say the way to do it is to let's throw the army at the border. We say combine professional law enforcement, legal channels, real wages, labor rights, legal status, path to citizenship. Bring it under the rule of law. You say they've broken the law as if members of Congress have written a Bible and it shouldn't be changed to adjust the realities. These people have to update our laws.
DOBBS: Whatever our congressmen and women have written, I don't think we should call it a Bible.
SHARRY: I don't either.
DOBBS: But it is law and the fact of the matter is that there are huge issues involved in this. There are lost wages, 190 to $200 billion. There are all sorts of costs as a result of economic diffusion, that is the American taxpayer at the local, state, and national level paying for the costs that should probably be borne by the employers of those people who hired illegal aliens.
SHARRY: Look, I agree that there's problems with it. But is it the presence of hard-working immigrants who want a piece of the American dream or is it the lack of legal status, the lack of labor rights.
DOBBS: I think you've got to be honest. These are huge issues that can't be simply dismissed because, you know, because you're talking about 8 to 12 million people.
SHARRY: That's right. That's right. It's a big issue and it will be hard to solve it, but saying let's do more of the same that has failed is not going to fix the problem.
DOBBS: Absolutely it is not. And if you can get behind Hagel and Daschle, you and I got a lot to talk about.
SHARRY: Well, I'm glad to hear it, Lou. This is a new day.
DOBBS: It's a better day thanks to senators Daschle and Hagel who were taking serious steps on this issue. Frank, we hope you'll come back and we'll talk about this some more, but we have to break right now.
For a look now at some of your thoughts on the issue of "Broken Borders." Eric from Green Bay in the state of Wisconsin wrote to say, "I have supervised numerous illegal aliens who are either placed on probation or released on patrol. Can anybody tell me why we are incarcerating illegals in prison at $26,000 per year when they're not here legally to begin with? We pay for their education, health care, and now prison time. At least they will find a job upon release with President Bush's proposal to retrain released inmates."
Jan Herron of Evergreen, Colorado. "Geez, I'm so elated to learn that Mexico's president Vicente Fox gave his stamp of approval to President' Bush's open borders immigration plan. I've spent many sleepless nights worried sick that Fox might get mad and totally cut off our only constant supply of poverty."
Many of you wrote about yesterday's comments by Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan talking about the acceptable pain that results from the loss of millions of jobs to cheap overseas labor markets. B.J. in Wichita, Kansas. "I think every American should thank President Bush and Mr. Greenspan for their thoughtfulness to retrain every unemployed American. Now they must decide on what type of retraining. I have some suggestions. Engineers can be Walmart greeters. All IT professionals can now learn to be sales clerks and for us poor fools who are blue-collar workers, well, there is no hope."
Glenn Garcia of Del Rio, Texas. "Mr. Greenspan's explanation that the exodus of jobs will be replaced with other jobs lends no support to Americans who have lost or are facing the loss of their jobs. He also failed to say of what quality those replacement jobs might be."
And Cathy Henshaw of Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. "Retrain? Apparently Mr. Greenspan is unaware of the tens of thousands of unemployed recent college graduates. How much more does he suggest they borrow to upgrade their newly acquired diplomas and retrain?"
Send us your thoughts, please, at loudobbs@CNN.com.
Coming up next the northeast bracing for heavy snow, hundreds of thousands of people on the east coast are already without power.
In New York City today prosecutors call Martha Stewart a liar. We'll tell you what the defense called the prosecution. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: A deadly wave of winter weather gripping much of the country tonight. Dangerous conditions have already claimed 47 lives. Storm warnings are in effect from Washington state to Washington D.C. Tonight this deadly storm taking aim at the northeast.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS (voice-over): Slick, icy roads sent one car skidding across a Tulsa, Oklahoma, highway. It crashed into a stopped car and slammed into its owner, nearly sending the man over the edge of a bridge. The man escaped uninjured.
The same dangerous blast that hit Tulsa carried freezing rain and snow as far east as South Carolina. There rescuers pulled a woman through the sun roof of her SUV after it skittered off an ice-covered bridge into a swamp. She was injured, but alive. In Minnesota, more than 27 inches of snow blanket the city of Duluth. Already the third largest storm in more than 130 years and more snow is on the way. Across the Midwest and much of the eastern seaboard hundreds of thousands of people are without power tonight. And traffic accidents have claimed dozens of lives.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: As far as the roadways being iced, this is the worst I've seen in a long time.
DOBBS: The National Weather Service says the worst is yet to come, more snow is expected to hit the Midwest tonight and meanwhile the northeast is bracing for a powerful storm system tearing up the coast. Freezing rain, ice and as much as 15 inches of snow are expected.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: Airports from Georgia to New York already experiencing delays of several hours and in the nation's capital, the federal government forced to shut down some offices.
More showers are possible in Hawaii tonight after some wild weather over the past few days. There a tornado, the length of four football fields, touched down in central Oahu. The National Weather Service said it received reports of almost a dozen funnel clouds in the same area. There were no reports of injuries or damage to any homes.
Well here in New York City today the federal government opened its case against Martha Stewart, charged with securities fraud, obstruction of justice. In opening statements today, federal prosecutors called Stewart a liar who knowingly broke the law. Her attorneys said the government's case is based on speculation. Joining me now, CNN legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin who was in court today. It sounds like quite a show.
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: It was a great day. It was the biggest federal courtroom in New York, every seat taken and it was so quiet in there the only sound you could hear was the scratch of the courtroom artist chalk before Karen Seymour got up to speak, who spoke for the prosecution
DOBBS: And basically calling the defendant a liar.
TOOBIN: Repeatedly, liar, liar, liar. She must have said it five, six times and her opening statement was very low key, very professional and very simple. This is actually not a complicated case against Martha Stewart. She sold this stock on December 27, 2001. Did she sell it as she said because she had a preexisting agreement to sell it at $60 a share or was she tipped that the CEO of Imclone was selling? That's the whole case right there.
DOBBS: And that is classic insider trading. She also faces a civil charge for insider trading, but not a criminal trial. What is your best assessment? Is the defense right as it is suggesting that it's all speculation on the part of the prosecutors? It took a year and a half to bring this case. A lot of publicity. The judge ruled that the defense can't talk about her celebrity status and the possible motives?
TOOBIN: Robert Morvillo showed that despite what a judge instructs you to do he'll do exactly what he wants in that courtroom. He's a commanding figure and he gave a wonderful opening statement just as the prosecutor did and what he focused on was a very interesting series of events that took place before this transaction showing that Martha Stewart had been doing a lot of selling of her stocks, up to and including the Imclone sale. That this was not an isolated sale. That it was part of a pattern of sales that she planned for tax and other reasons.
DOBBS: The famous year-end selling.
TOOBIN: That's exactly right. That was a big part of the argument today.
DOBBS: Great drama, the judge trying to constrain the defense in this to what end?
TOOBIN: Well, I think she doesn't want to turn this into some sort of referendum. Judge Cedarbaum, the judge doesn't want to turn this into a referendum on Martha Stewart's popularity, although Morvillo worked in the fact that this case has brought in the name of the Department of Justice led by John Ashcroft, not a popular figure here. He got a little bit of his politics in there. And the key witness in the case, Douglas Faneuil, the assistant to the stockbroker testifies first thing Thursday morning.
DOBBS: I assume that the defense attorney leading the wait here understands that the jury can also be Republicans as well as Democrats.
TOOBIN: Can be, but the odds in New York is that they're not.
DOBBS: What's the next step?
TOOBIN: No court tomorrow because of the snow. The key witness on Thursday. The accomplice alleged.
DOBBS: Look forward to it, Jeffrey. Talk to you then.
On Wall Street, stocks down from their two and a half year highs. The Dow off 92 points, almost 93 points. The Nasdaq down almost 38 points. The S&P 500 dropping 11.32. Word tonight of more big job cuts from corporate America. Christine Romans now -- Christine.
CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: This time it's Kraft that's gong to close 20 plants, cut 6,000 jobs, 1,300 of those jobs will be gone by the end of the first quarter. 6 percent overall of its workforce. It's a bloodletting to take place over the next three years. Shuttered plants include Canton, New York, Farmdale, Ohio, and others. This just a week after Kodak announced 15,000 job cuts. Meanwhile, Lou, the conference board reports more people say it's harder to find a job today than a year ago and fewer people are reporting that jobs are plentiful.
DOBBS: Fewer jobs are plentiful. We know the jobs that are replacing those lost are about on average 30 percent less in pay, not a happy situation, maybe that job creation will kick in soon. Walmart starting to meet resistance in its expansion plans. Imagine that.
ROMANS: In California, some feisty community governments, Lou, are trying to prevent Walmart from putting these supercenters in. Alameda county got sued by Walmart last night, Lou. Walmart says it wants to go in there and it wants to lower prices for food, for Alameda county residents, it wants to create some new jobs. Alameda county is not buying it. They want to keep competition. They don't want to lower grocery store workers' wages and they're fighting.
DOBBS: You can just call some of those big Walmarts, Walmart City.
ROMANS: Exactly.
DOBBS: Christine, thank you very much. Christine Romans.
Coming up next, we'll take a look at the nominations for the Academy awards but first an update on the list of companies that our staff has confirmed to be exporting America today. These companies either sending American jobs to cheap labor markets overseas or choosing to employ the cheap foreign labor instead of American workers.
Tonight's additions include pen maker AT Cross, Bumble Bee, Equifax, Key Corp. and Starkist. Those names, one list at CNN.com/lou if you want to take a look at the entire at the entire list of names that grow and grow and grow.
We'll be right back. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Now the results of our poll tonight. 9 percent of you say you have a lot of confidence in U.S. intelligence agencies. 22 percent say some. 27 percent, a little. None at all, 42 percent.
Turning now the big race. The race for the Academy awards. Oscar nomination announced early this morning in Los Angeles. The nominees for best picture are "The Lord of the Rings: Return of the King," "Master and Commander," "The Far Side of the World," "Mystic River," "Sea Biscuit" and "Lost in Translation."
The third installment of "The Lord of the Rings" trilogy claimed the most nominations, 11, including one for best director, Peter Jackson. "Master and Commander" starring Russell Crowe came in second, ten Oscar nominations. "Seabiscuit" based on the novel about the real life adventures of a 1930s racehorse and those who took him to victory and he them, tied for third with seven nominations. "Cold Mountain," "Mystic River," "Pirates of the Caribbean" also earning multiple nominations. The Oscars, by the way, Sunday, February 29. That's our show for tonight. Thanks for being with us. For all of us here, good night from New York. "Anderson Cooper" coming up next.
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