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Lou Dobbs Tonight
Two U.S. Soldiers, Civilian Killed in Iraq; Will Middle-Class Americans Be Heard in 2004 Election?
Aired February 16, 2004 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR (voice-over): Tonight: two American soldiers, an American civilian killed in Iraq. U.S. troops hunt for the insurgents who killed nearly two dozen Iraqi policemen in the latest attack.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There have been multiple opportunities since we've arrived for this country to erupt in civil war and it hasn't.
DOBBS: Exporting American jobs. White House economic adviser Greg Mankiw got into trouble last week for saying that's good for America. Peter Viles reports tonight, Mankiw has been saying that for some time.
"Broken Borders." An immigration crisis in this country, but a media watchdog group says our reporting is skewed. Tonight, the executive director of the watchdog group, Peter Hart, joins us to set the record straight.
And special interests and very special influence. With all the money and support that special interests give our candidates and political parties, can middle-class Americans really expect to be heard?
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT for Monday, February 16. Here now, Lou Dobbs.
DOBBS: Good evening.
President Bush today launched a direct attack against his critics on his record of the economy and jobs. President Bush said there is what he called an undeniable sense of optimism in this country. And the president insists, the economy is moving forward. Mr. Bush delivered this upbeat message during a visit to a family-owned manufacturing company in Florida.
White House correspondent Dana Bash reports -- Dana.
DANA BASH, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Lou, it was the president's 19th trip to Florida. Of course, that is a very important state for his reelection.
And, as you mentioned, the president did talk about the issue that his advisers still think is going to be the make-it or break-it issue for him this coming November, and that is the economy. Unlike recent trips, however to other important states like Pennsylvania and Ohio, the president did not mention the whole concept of job loss. There, he had said that he understands that job loss is a big issue. Today, instead, Mr. Bush wanted to make a point of talking up the economy, having an optimistic tone.
He surrounded himself with small-business owners, who say that they have actually been benefiting in the last couple of years from his tax cut, that they haven't fired workers. Instead, they've hired them.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: You can say, well, of course, they just picked the upbeat people. Well, the truth of the matter is, people are pretty upbeat all over our country. That's what I'm here to report to you. There's an optimism in our country that is undeniable. And we have got growth. And the key question is, is, are we wise enough to continue the policies, but to keep the policies in place that encourage growth?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BASH: Now, the White House designed this event to try to hit back at Democrats who have been slamming his policies, namely, his tax cuts. And, also, really, while the president's poll numbers on his stewardship of the economy have been going down, what the White House is trying to do here is get Mr. Bush to be out there and talking up the economy, what they hope would be a beneficial psychological event on consumer confidence and, of course, on voters as well.
But Democrats were very quick to jump on the president, saying that there's massive job loss in Florida, right there in Tampa. And, Lou, the president did not mention at all job loss abroad, something that he's mentioned in the past. He very much stuck to script -- back to you.
DOBBS: Dana, any explanation on the part of the staff why, with all of the controversy swallowing -- and swirling last week about outsourcing American jobs to cheap overseas labor markets, that the president didn't choose to address the issue today?
BASH: The name of the game today, Lou, was to talk up the economy, to say, really, that things aren't that bad. That was absolutely the goal here. And the president really didn't want to deviate from that.
And it was obvious from not only what he said, but who he surrounded himself with. He had sort of an Oprah-like talk with these small-business owners. They all were really, really saying that they believe that the economy is getting better. So, certainly, last week, the president did address that issue. But today, he decided to move on.
DOBBS: Dana, thank you very much -- Dana Bash reporting from the White House.
Another issue facing the president is the continuing war in Iraq and the growing number of American casualties. Today, insurgents killed two more American soldiers in bomb attacks. Also today, U.S. military commanders gave more details about the weekend attack on a police station that killed at least 20 Iraqi policemen.
Brent Sadler reports from Baghdad.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BRENT SADLER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Two American soldiers were killed in roadside bombings in Baquba, north of Baghdad, and the city itself, their military convoys hit by powerful explosions.
(on camera): As U.S. forces reorganize in the run-up to the expected handover of sovereignty to Iraqis by the end of June, more responsibility is now being put on Iraq's own security services. They are growing in numbers, but still weak, as Saturday's all-out attacks by Iraqi armed militants, not foreigners, on Fallujah west of Baghdad clearly demonstrated.
There's been some Iraqi criticism that U.S. units around Fallujah stayed out of the battle that claimed the lives of at least 20 policemen. But the U.S. military says they were not needed and praised their Iraqi counterparts, especially as they had fought another battle the previous day, when a top U.S. general's convoy came under fire at the same place.
BRIG. GEN. MARK KIMMITT, U.S. DEPUTY CHIEF OF OPERATIONS: The coalition forces were in contact with the ICDC. No assistance was asked for. No assistance was rendered.
SADLER: But senior Iraqi security officials insist, their men and women urgently need more equipment, like armored vehicles and heavy firepower, to deter a growing number of attacks against them.
Brent Sadler, CNN, Baghdad.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: Iraq has dominated the Democratic presidential contest from the outset. Howard Dean is the reason. He put forward the issue during the campaign. And today, one of his top officials decided to leave the campaign, just hours after saying he would quit if Dean fails to win tomorrow's primary in Wisconsin.
Bob Franken reports from Milwaukee.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BOB FRANKEN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): For Howard Dean, the job is to campaign hard, as the saying goes, like there's no tomorrow, when many of his top advisers are saying that, after the Wisconsin primary, there may not be. In fact, Dean has had to say goodbye to one of those top advisers, the national campaign chairman, Steve Grossman, who has left the campaign for the greener political pastures in the land of Kerry. No hard feelings, says Dean.
HOWARD DEAN (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I consider him to be a friend. I consider him to have worked very, very hard for this campaign, including at times where we were not on the map.
FRANKEN: John Kerry is mapping his strategy for a presumed general election race against President Bush, who is just back from a NASCAR race.
SEN. JOHN KERRY (D-MA), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We don't need a president who just says, gentlemen, start your engines. We need a president who says, America, let's start our economy and put people back to work.
FRANKEN: John Edwards makes it clear every chance he gets that, no matter how he finishes in Wisconsin, he has not reached the finish line.
SEN. JOHN EDWARDS (D-NC), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I think, as the race is narrowing to two people that it will be clear what the differences are between us. I will, myself, point out substantive policy differences.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
FRANKEN: So, Kerry and Edwards are planning their next campaign moves. And Howard Dean and his campaign, well, he's trying to struggle to make sure it doesn't disintegrate -- Lou.
DOBBS: Bob, Howard Dean's numbers, at least in one poll, showed some dramatic growth over the past week. Is there any suggestion there in Milwaukee that there could be a surprise in the offing?
FRANKEN: Well, everybody seems to feel like John Kerry is prime for one. He's a little bit nervous about it, clearly. He keeps on saying he's not the front-runner, he's got to struggle every day. If Howard Dean does better than expected, it would probably push him over on the side of staying in the campaign.
Of course, there are all kinds of campaign aides who say that, if he does no better than it looks, then maybe now is the time to get out.
DOBBS: Bob Franken, thank you, reporting from Milwaukee.
New developments tonight in the growing controversy over the shipment of American jobs to cheap overseas labor jobs, what we call here "Exporting America." Last week, the White House provoked a firestorm of protests when the president's chairman of the Council of Economic Advisers said outsourcing makes sense. We've now learned that the White House economic adviser, Greg Mankiw, has made the same argument before. Peter Viles has the story.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
PETER VILES, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): "Ask the White House," online chats hosted by the White House where you can chat with anyone from the first lady to NASCAR driver Michael Waltrip. Now, a regular in those chats has been White House economic adviser Greg Mankiw, who has repeatedly said online what got him into trouble last week.
GREGORY MANKIW, CHAIRMAN, COUNCIL OF ECONOMIC ADVISERS: I think outsourcing is a growing phenomenon, but it's something that we should realize is probably a plus for the economy in the long run.
VILES: Facing political backlash, Mankiw later said he didn't mean to praise outsourcing, but, in the past, he has consistently said that it helps the American economy.
January 22, the question to him online was -- quote -- "Do you agree with the economists who say that outsourcing of jobs to countries like India, China and the Philippines actually benefits the U.S. economy?" And Mankiw's response was -- quote -- "This can be difficult for workers who are displaced, but the economy overall benefits."
December 5, answering a similar question, he said -- quote -- "Like all forms of international trade, outsourcing benefits an economy overall, though there are short-term costs as workers are displaced."
Because the administration has not backed off that position, Democrats are hammering the president on it.
SEN. CHARLES SCHUMER (D), NEW YORK: Until the administration has an answer, there's going to be behind the eight-ball. So far, they have not said a single thing, other than outsourcing is good.
KERRY: When this administration's top economic adviser puts out a report saying, it's a good thing for America to be outsourcing all these jobs, and the stock market is up and that's the measurement of America, I say, that's not the measurement of America.
VILES: Campaigning at a window factory in Florida, the president spoke about the economy and job creation, but did not mention outsourcing.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
VILES: The president did acknowledge last week that some American jobs have been lost to outsourcing. But the administration is still standing by that economic report that says outsourcing makes sense -- Lou.
DOBBS: The question largely is, to whom?
VILES: Sure.
DOBBS: And it amazes me that an economist with a background of Gregory Mankiw could say that it makes economic sense or sense for the economy, when what he's really saying and what many of the proponents of outsourcing are saying, is, it makes financial sense for the corporations doing it.
VILES: Sure.
DOBBS: Quite a different thing.
VILES: And that's the point John Kerry appears to be trying to get out when he says, yes, it's good for the stock market, but it's not good for America.
DOBBS: Frankly, personally, I'm not even sure it's good for the stock market.
Pete, thanks.
VILES: Sure.
DOBBS: Peter Viles.
Still ahead here, on the eve of the Wisconsin primary, I'll be joined by the chairwoman of Wisconsin's Democratic Party, Linda Honold.
And, in "Broken Borders," tonight, we've reported here to you about an immigration crisis, a media watchdog group says our reporting is skewed. Well, we'll put the record straight tonight. I'll be talking with FAIR executive director Peter Hart about that skewed reporting and truth and fairness and balance.
And shocking new details about the child sex abuse scandal in the Catholic Church, that scandal even larger than originally suggested -- that and a great deal more still ahead here.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Wisconsin's primary tomorrow could mark a decisive turn in the race for the Democratic presidential nomination. Wisconsin, in fact, hasn't played a role this big in the nominating process for many years.
My guest tonight is the chairwoman of the states' Democratic Party, Linda Honold. She joins us from Milwaukee.
Linda, good to have you here.
LINDA HONOLD, WISCONSIN DEMOCRATIC PARTY CHAIRWOMAN: It's good to be here.
DOBBS: Any suggestion on your part that we're going to -- Kerry obviously right now running ahead of the polls, but at least one poll showing Dean moving up. Any suggestion from you, at least, that there's going to be a surprise?
HONOLD: I kind of doubt that there will be a surprise. But this is Wisconsin, and we have a tendency to vote for mavericks, so you never know.
DOBBS: You vote for mavericks. You also have some very important issues facing you, as does every state in the Union and every state holding primaries. What are going to be the most important issues when voters go to the poll tomorrow?
HONOLD: I think the most important issue is jobs. Wisconsin has lost over 75,000 jobs in the last three years, most of them manufacturing.
Many people are unemployed. They're never going to get those jobs back. We just heard that, here in Milwaukee, 500 jobs are going to Mexico from Tower Automotive. So, that is the key issue. I think, second to that would be health care and the cost of health care. And then probably third would be education.
DOBBS: Which candidate, in your assessment, is coming up with the best answers on these tough issues?
HONOLD: Well, I think all of them are coming up with good answers on these very tough issues. They're going to appeal to different voters. And that's the piece that we're really not able to predict at this point.
The voters in Wisconsin, as you said earlier, for the first time in many years actually are hearing from the candidates up close and personal before they have to make their decision. And they're listening carefully, and I'm sure are going to make a considered judgment when they go to the polls tomorrow.
DOBBS: The biggest newspaper in your state, "The Milwaukee Journal Sentinel," endorsing John Edwards, will that have a significant effect on the outcome tomorrow?
HONOLD: I'm suspect it will have some effect. I'm not sure how much. Sometimes, an endorsement by a newspaper has exactly the opposite effect here in our state. So I don't know. It will have some effect. It's a question of which way.
DOBBS: Linda, we thank you very much for being with us. And you're brave and kind to stand out there in that cold Milwaukee weather. And we appreciate it very much, Linda Honold, the chairwoman of the Democratic Party in Wisconsin.
HONOLD: Thank you.
DOBBS: Coming up next here, a shocking new report tonight on the number of children now believed to have been abused by Catholic priests.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAVID CERULLI, SURVIVORS NETWORK OF THOSE ABUSED BY PRIESTS: I was led to believe I was the only one. So many of us believed that. And now we know we're not the only ones.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: Now the Catholic Church says the abuse was far more widespread than first thought, suggested and reported.
Also, the battle over special interest money has begun in earnest in the presidential campaign. We'll take a look at special interests and very special influence -- all of that and a great deal more still ahead here.
Please stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: The Catholic Church, later this month, will release a study on its massive sexual abuse scandal. Incredibly, the number of accusations in the original reports may have actually been underestimated, that according to a draft report viewed by CNN.
Maria Hinojosa has the story.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MARIA HINOJOSA, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): David Cerulli says the sexual abuse by a Pennsylvania priest began when he was just 14 years old. But he never said a word until 10 years later.
CERULLI: It was difficult for us to come forward, for me to come forward. And I was led to believe that I was the only one. So many of us believed that. And now we know we're not the only ones.
HINOJOSA: A draft report by John Jay College of Criminal Justice confirms that there were in fact thousands of victims. Based on a nationwide survey of the Catholic Church's own records, 11,000 children alleged they were sexually abused by priests between 1950 and the year 2002; 78 percent of those were children 11 to 17 years old.
CERULLI: It's a staggering number. One is too many, as we know. It's not surprising. However, we have to remember that this is a survey, a self-survey, by the bishops. So, even this number, we're skeptical of.
HINOJOSA: Of the 11,000 allegations, the church confirmed 6,700 of them. The report, commissioned by the Conference of Catholic Bishops and seen by CNN before its official publication on February 27, shows that more than half of the 4,450 accused priests had a single allegation against them, 25 percent had two or three allegations, 13 percent had four to nine allegations. A total of 147 priests were accused of abusing nearly 3,000 minors.
REV. THOMAS REESE, EDITOR, "AMERICA": There are 11,000 victims out there that we know of that are in need of help. And I think that it shows that the church needs a program to reach out to them to do whatever we can to help them in a healing process.
HINOJOSA: But victims say, this is only the tip of the iceberg.
CERULLI: We will never know the true extent of what has happened unless survivors come forward.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HINOJOSA: Lou, this is a draft of a final report that's to be released on February 27. And today, Bishop Wilton Gregory, president of the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops, said -- quote -- "These reports will be a very sobering and important milestone. My heart goes out to all who have suffered" -- Lou.
DOBBS: Maria, thank you very much.
Just ahead here, a media watchdog group has accused me of skewed reporting on immigration and illegal aliens. The executive director of the group, Peter Hart, will join me to set the record straight.
An election year, special interest groups, a powerful combination, a potent mixture. Left out of that combination and mixture, America's middle class. We'll have a special report.
And bringing home the votes, Democratic front-runner John Kerry looking strong, as Howard Dean faces a defection. We'll hear from our political roundtable, three of the country's top political journalists.
Also ahead:
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "LATE NIGHT WITH CONAN O'BRIEN")
TRIUMPH, THE INSULT COMIC DOG: You're in North America. Learn the language.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: Conan O'Brien's sock puppet offending the Canadian province of Quebec, the entire province, apparently.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Both Republicans and Democrats have now accused, in attack ads, one another of being tools of special interest groups. Well, in fact, special interest groups have funneled a record amount of money into this presidential election already. But while these groups are busy pushing their agendas, one very large group of people in this country finds itself left out once again.
Kitty Pilgrim reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KITTY PILGRIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The latest campaign weapon of choice, bashing rivals over support from special interest groups.
This Kerry ad slams President Bush.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, AD)
NARRATOR: He's taken $1.4 million from drug companies.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PILGRIM: And this video on President Bush's Web site goes after Kerry.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NARRATOR: Brought to you by the special interests, millions from executives.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PILGRIM: Charles Lewis, director of the Center For Public Integrity, has written a book on the financing of elections. He says, because special interests pay for campaigns, that buys influence, something the average citizen can't afford.
CHARLES LEWIS, DIRECTOR, THE CENTER FOR PUBLIC INTEGRITY: There is a have and have-not element of politics. And the haves are the ones who give money and frequently have things they'd like to get done, and they do get done frequently. And the rest of us out there -- and there is something going on here that that is, I think, a problem.
PILGRIM: In the last election, 96 percent of Americans did not give a penny to a candidate or a party. And the allowable donation to a candidate, a $2,000 check, comes from less than one-tenth of 1 percent of Americans.
The largest lobby groups in the last presidential election, the National Rifle Association, the AARP, National Federation of Independent Business, American Israel Public Affairs Committee, American Trial Lawyers, and the AFL-CIO, top categories, financial industries, energy, defense, labor and health care, all spending hundreds of millions of dollars in the political process.
In general, the Republican Party is supported by pharmaceuticals, energy, defense and banking, the Democrats by trial lawyers, labor unions and the entertainment industry.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: As important as money is to the entire political process, the ultimate political power in this country is free. It's the ability to vote -- Lou. DOBBS: But, often, a lot of noise to get through in order to exercise that.
PILGRIM: It certainly is.
DOBBS: Kitty, thank you very much.
Senator John Kerry is expected to tighten his claim on the presidential nomination for the Democratic Party in tomorrow's primary in Wisconsin.
Joining me now, our top panel of political journalists, Ron Brownstein, national political correspondent, "The L.A. Times," joining us from Milwaukee tonight, from Washington, Karen Tumulty, national political correspondent, "TIME" magazine, Roger Simon also from Washington. political editor of the "U.S. News and World Report."
Well, Karen, Roger, since you both are obviously warm and comfy here right now, I'm going to turn to Ron.
(LAUGHTER)
DOBBS: The defection today by Dean's campaign manager, the endorsement by "The Sentinel Journal," Milwaukee's biggest paper, of Senator Edwards, what's the impact on the election?
RON BROWNSTEIN, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, right now, in Milwaukee, it looks like, new state, same story.
We're seeing an incredible procession of primaries, I think, Lou, over the last three weeks in which essentially a national result is being imprinted state by state. In Wisconsin, as in Tennessee, as in Virginia, as in Missouri, John Kerry has been way ahead, largely on a conviction that he would be the strongest candidate against George W. Bush. John Edwards, as you mentioned, has shown some energy here. He got endorsed by the Milwaukee paper today, by the Madison paper and the Madison mayor over the weekend. He's drawing big crowds.
And Howard Dean has put really his last-ditch effort into the state. Right now, it looks like Kerry comfortably ahead and a fight for second place between Dean, who has a residual support from earlier incursions here, and Edwards, who seems to be moving up.
DOBBS: And, Karen, Senator Edwards seems to be pretty effective at securing newspaper endorsements. Is there any likelihood that we're going to see either Dean or Edwards withdraw tomorrow?
KAREN TUMULTY, NATIONAL POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT, "TIME": Well, the real person everyone is watching tomorrow is Howard Dean.
The word is that he is going to go home to Vermont for a couple of weeks, sort of think about what he wants to do with this political movement that he has created. Now, a lot of these people are die-hard Democrats. They are going to whoever the nominee is. But a lot of these people are brand new to politics. And, for the Democrats to win, it's going to be very important that these people both stay with their nominee and don't go off to some third-party candidate.
The other thing Howard Dean has done is tapped a new financial resource for the party. People who write these 40, 50, $60 checks that really add up. The party is really struggling with how they can tap into these people, and Howard Dean, too, is trying to figure out what kind of role he could play once his candidacy is over with.
DOBBS: Roger, Grossman -- Steve Grossman, Dean's campaign manager, said he would resign if Howard Dean didn't win tomorrow. Then he leaves, to join the Kerry campaign.
What's really going on there?
SIMON: There's no handbook for campaign chairman. But if there was one, it would probably say, you don't get to tell the candidate what to do. Greenberg bizarrely gave an interview to "The New York Times," well, if Dean doesn't win, he should obviously drop out, and I'm going to drop out. And I'm going to go over to Kerry. That's how the top of the ticket learned what the campaign chairman was saying. That's not really the way things are supposed to happen in politics. Dean gets to make his own decision on these things. He's not a first- time candidate. He's a first-time presidential candidate.
But after all he's served five and a half terms as governor of Vermont. He knows politics. He knows how to read a poll. He knows how to count delegates. There's also another thing, Lou, a strange dynamic has grown up that people seem to think that Howard Dean should get out. He's pathetic. He's making a fool of himself. He should drop out after Wisconsin. But Edwards should keep going on. He's great. He should make this a two-person fight. Well, John Edwards has exactly one more primary than John Dean has. He won one, Dean leads Edwards in the delegate count. So, the main contest that Edwards has won I think is for the hearts and minds of the media, and has a lot of support in the media.
DOBBS: Well, lacking support in the media right now is president George W. Bush. In Florida today talking about the economy, and a very upbeat message.
What is your take, Karen, as to the president's position, obviously it's lower in the polls, but what is his position strategically as the campaign is shaping up as between the presumptive candidate, John Kerry, and George Bush?
TUMULTY: Well, right now we have in fact seen the president slip a lot in the polls over the last three weeks. And the White House is very much trying to get its footing back. But the fact is that, you know, happy talk about the economy is not going to resonate in some of these key states, some of these states that are really going to matter in the fall. Florida, of course, is a big one. But in places like Ohio, Pennsylvania, people -- a lot of people have lost their jobs. And they're going to be looking for the president to express, you know, his understanding of their situation. And so I think that -- I think the tone of these sort of statements is really likely to change, because this president doesn't want to make the same mistake his father did, which is looking as though he was, you know, unaware of the real suffering that's going on out there.
DOBBS: And Roger, anything the president can do at this point?
Do you have any strategic advice?
SIMON: He could create a couple of million jobs. Karen is right, just saying that this can't be the -- you know, be happy, feel- good campaign, that his father tried to run. People know whether they're suffering or not. They know if they've lost jobs or fearful of losing their jobs or their neighbors have lost jobs. And George Bush has to create jobs. And the problem is, people are a lot smarter than me in business say that the government doesn't really create jobs, the private sector does. And the ability of a president, any president to effect that is limited.
DOBBS: Ron....
BROWNSTEIN: Can I jump in?
DOBBS: Surely.
BROWNSTEIN: Lou, a quick point. I thought in the president's trip to Florida, what he did yesterday was really just as important, going to the NASCAR race. Because it's really a symbol of where this race may be going. A lot of the swing voters for the fall are blue collar voters who are probably economically dissatisfied with the record of the administration. They're receptive to a tough on-trade message that all the Democrats are offering, but they're also culturally conservative. And that's where the administration and the president are going to have some opportunities to paint John Kerry as a social liberal. He has the defense of being a veteran, but he has a very liberal voting record on a number of social issues. And you can see the cross-pressures on these voters developing already. Where Democrats are going to them on economic grounds, and the administration making a tax, national strength, national defense and cultural argument.
DOBBS: Ron Brownstein in the cold of Milwaukee tonight.
Karen Tumulty and Ron Simon comfortable in CNN studios. It's always warm and comfortable in our studios in Washington, D.C.
Thank you all for being with us.
"Tonight's Thought" is on our government, it comes from one of the countries founding fathers. One of the men we're celebrating this President's Day.
How soon we forget history. Government is not reason. Government is not eloquence. It is force. And like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master" -- George Washington.
"Tonight's Poll" question is on a subject we've been covering here for more than a year, the illegal alien crisis that faces this country.
And tonight our question is, do you think our reporting on illegal aliens is accurate, yes or no?
Cast your vote at cnn.com/lou. We'll have the results for you coming up for you later in the broadcast.
And coming up next, "Exporting America." The growing debate over free trade has created a multi-million-dollar lobby. We'll have that special report for you.
And "Broken Borders." Tonight, Peter Hart, the director of fairness and accuracy and reporting has called our reporting on illegal aliens slanted and inaccurate. He is our guest. We'll find out about fair and balanced and great deal more. Still ahead, please stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: "Exporting America" tonight. Free trade is an idea that has had few critics over the years, particularly the last 20 years. However, the exporting of American jobs to cheap foreign labor markets has changed all of that, and now proponents of free trade are finding it more expensive to support.
Lisa Sylvester has the story.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LISA SYLVESTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): New York Senator Chuck Schumer used to be in the free trade camp. Today he has second thoughts.
SEN. CHARLES SCHUMER (D), NEW YORK: It's always been the theory that all American citizens benefited from free trade. But if the best jobs are going overseas, if the high-paid jobs are going overseas, then it may be the rest of the world at the expense of the United States.
SYLVESTER: Corporate groups watching free trade support wither away are launching a counteroffensive. This election season, Wal- Mart, one of china's largest trading partners, has given more than $1 million in campaign contributions, making it the second biggest organizational giver so far, according to election data compiled by the Center for Responsive Politics. The U.S. Chamber of Commerce and the business round table spent more than $20 million in lobbyist spending in 2000. The Cato Institute is also pushing the free-trade agenda. The think tank was co-founded by Charles Coke, a billionaire who made his money in the energy American industry. Today only 7 percent of it's $13 million dollar budget comes from corporations, but the company's biggest corporate sponsors include FedEx, Microsoft and Time Warner, the parent company of CNN.
SCHUMER: Cato has a well-earned reputation in Washington for being independent. We criticize both parties. We're known for sticking to principal.
SYLVESTER: On the other side of the issue are labor unions who have consistently topped the list as big givers in Washington. The International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers donated nearly $5 million in 2000, 98 percent to Democrats. That same year, Teamsters gave Democrats the bulk of $3 million in federal campaign donations. Labor unions have also pushed their message through the Economic Policy Institute, a Washington think-tank backed by more than two dozen unions.
STEVEN WEISS, CENTER FOR RESPONSIVE POLITICS: Labor unions know how to play this game as well. Very often they're running right up against businesses on issues. And labor unions know that if they were to lay down, and just give up on the fight, that a whole lot of issues very important to them would not go their way.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SYLVESTER: Money may not buy votes on Capitol Hill, but it does ensure one thing, access to those who make the decisions. Money talks. Corporate groups have been very effective using money to gain access. They did so in 2000 when they successfully lobbied to permanently open commercial ties with China. And in 2002 when they fought to give President Bush new authority to make trade deals -- Lou.
DOBBS: Lisa, thank you very much. Lisa Sylvester from Washington.
Now let's take a look at some of your thoughts on "Exporting America." Elizabeth Ham of Tulsa, Oklahoma, wrote in to say, "now that we know that it is a good thing to ship jobs overseas, maybe we'll hear that reducing the bans on air and water pollution also is a good thing. Good, that is, for drug companies, funeral homes, utilities, gas, oil and the stock market. How sweet it is."
Brendan O'Sullivan of Phoenix. "I've been following "Exporting America" and your interviews. I've noticed that none of your interviewed guests are ever able to give you a solid answer to the question, what specific jobs should we be retrained for. Whenever you pose that question to them, it is like you are showing a mirror to a vampire."
Now from Luis Panagi of Clifton Park, New York. "Trying to solve today's problems of our country's economies with recipes written by economists in the 19th century, or even in the 20th, is akin to trying to take an X-ray with a candle."
Andrea from Boise, Idaho. "Why isn't anyone using the word sweat shop. Since sweat shops are illegal in the United States, employers just go to countries where they don't have to worry about legalities. Then they call what they're doing by a nice name."
And Thomas Stroud, Chattanooga, Tennessee. "I'm no economist but it occurs to me that the American worker is also the American consumer. Every American job that is eliminated in favor of cheaper overseas labor equates to a consumer taken out of the marketplace. Unemployed Americans cannot afford to purchase products, even if they are produced less expensively overseas. Henry Ford had the same idea 100 years ago." We love hearing from you. Please send your thoughts, your comments to loudobbs@CNN.com. We have another thought to share with you tonight on this President's day. It is on corporate power. And it comes from one of the leaders that we celebrate on this President's day. "I see in the near future a crisis approaching that unnerves me and causes me to tremble for the safety of my country. As a result of the war, corporations have been enthroned. An era of corruption in high places will follow, and the money power will endeavor to prolong its reign by working on the prejudices of the people until wealth is aggregated in a few hands and the republic is destroyed." Those words from Abraham Lincoln.
Another reminder now, if we may, to vote in our poll. The question, "do you think our reporting on illegal aliens is accurate? Yes or no." Cast your vote at CNN.com/lou. Just ahead, we'll find out why my next guest says our reporting is inaccurate. He says our reporting has not been fair and balanced. Peter Hart of the media watchdog group F.A.I.R. joins me.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Under the title "Broken Borders," we've been extensively reporting here on a worsening illegal alien crisis in this country. And it's grabbed the attention of many. While the feedback we've received from you, the viewers, has been overwhelmingly positive and supportive, some, of course, have not shared in the sentiment including my next guest here tonight. Peter Hart is the director of F.A.I.R., a media watchdog group. And we're delighted to have you here.
Obviously, the reason we invited you here is because you are critical of what we were doing, suggesting it was skewed. And I want to go through a few things to set the record straight.
You said, first, the show tends to portray the debate over immigration in the negative. Insofar as the safety, security, carrying diseases, destroying our national parks, stealing health care and education -- stealing was your word, not mine, of course. That reporting from those perspectives relies on guests who confirm those positions and you suggested -- you didn't suggest, you stated outright that we balanced our guests far more in favor of those anti- immigration rather than pro-immigration, correct?
PETER HART, ACTIVISM DIRECTOR, FAIRNESS ACCURACY IN REPORTING: More or less. You know, I think the guest list tilted toward people who were more critical of immigrants, anti-immigrant advocates than it did to people on the other side. We studied the whole month of October, for example, trying to isolate one period. And we found ten appearances by two different groups that were very critical of immigrants. And then just four from the other side.
DOBBS: I think it actually turned out it was six for that period, as I recall.
HART: If you include Cato Institute.
DOBBS: We do. Obviously Dan Griswold is very much pro- immigration, right?
HART: They come at it from a different perspective.
DOBBS: A different ideological persepective but you would...
HART: The content of their perspective is different.
DOBBS: So we asked our folks to go back and Leslie De La Henry (ph) and some of our people here went through and what they came up with is a ratio of 23 to 19. The 23 was pro-illegal alien, or pro- immigration, depending on how you want to construe it, to 19 the other way. And there's a list of the companies. And I happen to -- as you know, Peter and I have known one another over a period of time, the fact of the matter is, I believe in sunshine on everything. And your point about balancing is a valid one. It's just in this instance, the facts support us, and I want to make sure the facts are out there. Clearly, we had more anti--the position that I've taken on this broadcast -- than pro the position I'm taking on the broadcast. Does that satisfy you?
HART: You know, we did a count and came to a much different conclusion. I think the tone of the segments and the stories you select, I think, are very important as well, talking about illegal aliens coming across the border carrying deadly diseases...
DOBBS: That's absolutely true.
HART: Taking our health care, taking education, taking advantage of free education. They're destroying the national parks. They're committing sex crimes. And the rest of the media...
DOBBS: Are you denying that?
HART: I think that's...
DOBBS: Are you denying that they do those things?
HART: What I'm saying is that when you as a journalist, and you know this for sure, that journalists choose certain segments and they choose certain topics and they amplify those things. You've chosen day in and day out to do reporting immigration and I think it leads to a sense of scapegoating this population. That there's a very vulnerable population. They don't usually have people advocating for their positions. And instead, night after night, we hear that they're responsible for this array of social problems on the show.
DOBBS: Not only social problems, but economic problems. And very serious problems. And I think on this show I actually gave credit to President Bush, although I think the policy he's advocated, is entirely the wrong approach to a national immigration crisis. It's the beginning of a dialogue. But in each of those instances, if you don't like the tone, that's one thing. But I don't think you can argue, nor did you, with the facts as we presented them. I understand cumulatively.
HART: That's not correct, actually. DOBBS: Well, let's see if this will satisfy you. "There is a criticism of the accuracy of information. The show has suggested there was a cost to taxpayers of $20 billion per year due to illegal immigration. Dobbs and the correspondent refer to a study that does not find that at all." You wrote that. "They use the National Academy of Sciences study done in 1997. The definitive report," your words, not mine. "The NAS study comes up with a net range of between one and 10 billion and a net benefit to the U.S. economy very different," you say, "from a $20 billion cost." Correct?
HART: Sure.
DOBBS: Now, our people, Lisa Sylvester, Chuck Taylor (ph), the producer on the piece and a number of other folks went back to take a look, because we can make mistakes just like everyone else. But in this instance, we didn't make a mistake. I'd like to show you on the report here. If we've got the screen.
This is the -- if you would, Peter, look at the screen here. Benefit, $1 to $10 billion. Cost, $11.4 billion to $20.2 billion. You suggest that that was inaccurate. But in point of fact, the NAS study -- and I want to show you that right here.
HART: I'm very familiar with that.
DOBBS: OK, you're very familiar with it. What does that say?
HART: And if you read this through, and you watch...
DOBBS: Oh, we did.
HART: ... and you read the next chapter, the next whole chapter explains that dynamic scoring is how they prefer to analyze this question. That's why in the executive summary they don't reach the conclusion of $20 billion.
They refer to this as a snapshot. And instead they say, the better statistical approach -- and this might be too complicated.
DOBBS: No, our audience is very, very savvy.
HART: ... that preferred statistical scoring (ph) is the dynamic scoring, which would lead to a totally different conclusion. I've talked to the people who wrote the report. And they said, I have no idea where $20 billion would come from.
DOBBS: Well, it comes from, interestingly enough...
HART: And it comes from the Center for Immigration Studies.
DOBBS: No, no, it doesn't. It comes from the national...
HART: They've interpreted -- yeah, but they've interpreted their findings.
DOBBS: Well, that's their issue. That isn't who we were quoting. And in point in fact, you were quoting "The New York Times," not the National Academy of Sciences, and that's our reporting from the source. You're going by "The New York Times..."
HART: No, I went to the source.
DOBBS: ... which was entirely in error.
HART: I went to the source and I went to the people who did the report. You can call them and ask them if you'd like.
DOBBS: Would you like to read your article?
HART: I wrote it, actually.
DOBBS: You cite "The New York Times." May 18, 1997. In other words, that benefits outweigh the costs. That's totally inaccurate. In point in fact, on page six of the study, "the domestic gain may be on the order of $1 to $10 billion." That was reported by "The New York Times," which failed to take note, on page 288, page 286, this number, which is the net cost.
In point of fact, we not only say it costs $20 billion, based on the definitive work, as you say, we say that it costs workers, hard working American citizens, $190 billion a year, $190 billion to $200 billion a year in depressed wages as a result of excessive immigration. And that's the study of George Borjas at Harvard University. So when you criticize us, it seems to me there's a high order of responsibility on your part to capture the reality of it.
HART: Which is exactly what I did. If you continue reading that report, you'll find that is not their conclusion. That's a number they present in a table.
DOBBS: I need to use one other point of this. The suggestion in this is, that by taking an anti-illegal alien position, which is really a pro-border security position, a pro-rational immigration policy, that there's something wrong with that. Because we're not following the orthodoxy set by other agendas. Is there any of that, or is that just a simple misinterpretation on my part?
HART: I don't think that was my point. That might be what some other people conclude. I think what we were trying to say is that the tone and the story selections overwhelmingly framed in the negative. And in the period we were studying, the guest lists were overwhelmingly in support of your point of view.
DOBBS: Do you feel better about it now?
HART: About what?
DOBBS: Of the balance?
HART: No, no.
DOBBS: You don't?
HART: No.
DOBBS: You don't? In that case, we can't do anything with you. You're talking about our accuracy. You're the one who's wrong. We actually balanced it in favor of the people taking a position against us. If I can't help you there, Peter, I can't help you all. But we appreciate you being here.
HART: My pleasure.
DOBBS: Thank you.
We turn now to the result of our poll, which is on the subject of our reporting efforts, in which we asked if you think our reporting on illegal aliens is inaccurate. Seventy-one percent of you said yes. Or excuse me, is accurate. I better get this right. I was already wrong about being accurate. Do you think our reporting on illegal aliens is accurate? Seventy-percent of you said yes; 29 percent said no. Peter, you have to be impressed with the equanimity with which I was going to take that result.
Thank you very much, Peter Hart.
Coming up next, Canada lures Conan O'Brien to the north to boost tourism. But Canadians got a little more than they bargained for.
But first, an update on the list of companies our staff has confirmed to be exporting America. These are American companies either sending American jobs overseas or choosing to employ cheap foreign labor instead of American workers. Tonight's additions include ADC, Affiliated Computer Services, Apple, CNA, Dana corporation, Dun & Bradstreet, Ethan Allen, Federated Department Stores, FreeBorders, Fruit of the Loom, Helen of Troy, Kulicke & Soffa, McKinsey & Company. Let me say that one again, McKinsey & Company, architects as they are. Quark, Stanley Works, Sun Microsystems, Symbol Technologies, UnitedHealth Group.
For the complete list of companies, please log onto cnn.com/lou. We'll continue in a moment. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: An exciting discovery to report tonight. Scientists have found a new galaxy at the far reaches of our universe. It's now the farthest known object from Earth. The galaxy, and all of this is incomprehensible, but nonetheless I'll say it, 13 billion light years away. Perhaps you comprehend that. I don't. It's a long way.
Scientists estimate it's a young galaxy still in its formative years. This discovery means unprecedented study of how early galaxies are formed is possible.
And closer to home, somewhat, one of NASA's two Mars rovers hit a new one-day distance record on the surface of the Red Planet. The Spirit rover traveled more than 88 feet toward a crater that scientists are, of course, anxious to study, and bringing back with it these miraculous pictures. Finally tonight, some Canadians are laughing at a comedy sketch from "The Late Night With Conan O'Brien Show." That show broadcast from Toronto last week, part of the city's efforts to boost its economy. But instead of spreading good will and investment, the show sparked controversy. One of Conan's regular skits is the hand puppet named Triumph the Insult Comic Dog. Apparently, Triumph lived up to his name, insulting many French Canadians.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "LATE NIGHT WITH CONAN O'BRIEN")
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You're in North America! Learn the language!
You're French, yet Canadian, yes? You're obnoxious and dumb.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: Canadian lawmakers, who financed the show's trip to Toronto, say they want their money back.
That's our show for tonight. We thank you for being with us.
Tomorrow, the United States has always been the most innovative nation on Earth, but some say that is changing. Dave McCurdy of Electronic Industries Alliance will be our guest. Also, the Wisconsin primary marks a turning point in the race for the White House, we're told. We'll see. Our panel of top political journalists will be here.
For all of us here, good night from New York. Anderson Cooper coming up next.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Class Americans Be Heard in 2004 Election?>
Aired February 16, 2004 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR (voice-over): Tonight: two American soldiers, an American civilian killed in Iraq. U.S. troops hunt for the insurgents who killed nearly two dozen Iraqi policemen in the latest attack.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There have been multiple opportunities since we've arrived for this country to erupt in civil war and it hasn't.
DOBBS: Exporting American jobs. White House economic adviser Greg Mankiw got into trouble last week for saying that's good for America. Peter Viles reports tonight, Mankiw has been saying that for some time.
"Broken Borders." An immigration crisis in this country, but a media watchdog group says our reporting is skewed. Tonight, the executive director of the watchdog group, Peter Hart, joins us to set the record straight.
And special interests and very special influence. With all the money and support that special interests give our candidates and political parties, can middle-class Americans really expect to be heard?
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT for Monday, February 16. Here now, Lou Dobbs.
DOBBS: Good evening.
President Bush today launched a direct attack against his critics on his record of the economy and jobs. President Bush said there is what he called an undeniable sense of optimism in this country. And the president insists, the economy is moving forward. Mr. Bush delivered this upbeat message during a visit to a family-owned manufacturing company in Florida.
White House correspondent Dana Bash reports -- Dana.
DANA BASH, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Lou, it was the president's 19th trip to Florida. Of course, that is a very important state for his reelection.
And, as you mentioned, the president did talk about the issue that his advisers still think is going to be the make-it or break-it issue for him this coming November, and that is the economy. Unlike recent trips, however to other important states like Pennsylvania and Ohio, the president did not mention the whole concept of job loss. There, he had said that he understands that job loss is a big issue. Today, instead, Mr. Bush wanted to make a point of talking up the economy, having an optimistic tone.
He surrounded himself with small-business owners, who say that they have actually been benefiting in the last couple of years from his tax cut, that they haven't fired workers. Instead, they've hired them.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: You can say, well, of course, they just picked the upbeat people. Well, the truth of the matter is, people are pretty upbeat all over our country. That's what I'm here to report to you. There's an optimism in our country that is undeniable. And we have got growth. And the key question is, is, are we wise enough to continue the policies, but to keep the policies in place that encourage growth?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BASH: Now, the White House designed this event to try to hit back at Democrats who have been slamming his policies, namely, his tax cuts. And, also, really, while the president's poll numbers on his stewardship of the economy have been going down, what the White House is trying to do here is get Mr. Bush to be out there and talking up the economy, what they hope would be a beneficial psychological event on consumer confidence and, of course, on voters as well.
But Democrats were very quick to jump on the president, saying that there's massive job loss in Florida, right there in Tampa. And, Lou, the president did not mention at all job loss abroad, something that he's mentioned in the past. He very much stuck to script -- back to you.
DOBBS: Dana, any explanation on the part of the staff why, with all of the controversy swallowing -- and swirling last week about outsourcing American jobs to cheap overseas labor markets, that the president didn't choose to address the issue today?
BASH: The name of the game today, Lou, was to talk up the economy, to say, really, that things aren't that bad. That was absolutely the goal here. And the president really didn't want to deviate from that.
And it was obvious from not only what he said, but who he surrounded himself with. He had sort of an Oprah-like talk with these small-business owners. They all were really, really saying that they believe that the economy is getting better. So, certainly, last week, the president did address that issue. But today, he decided to move on.
DOBBS: Dana, thank you very much -- Dana Bash reporting from the White House.
Another issue facing the president is the continuing war in Iraq and the growing number of American casualties. Today, insurgents killed two more American soldiers in bomb attacks. Also today, U.S. military commanders gave more details about the weekend attack on a police station that killed at least 20 Iraqi policemen.
Brent Sadler reports from Baghdad.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BRENT SADLER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Two American soldiers were killed in roadside bombings in Baquba, north of Baghdad, and the city itself, their military convoys hit by powerful explosions.
(on camera): As U.S. forces reorganize in the run-up to the expected handover of sovereignty to Iraqis by the end of June, more responsibility is now being put on Iraq's own security services. They are growing in numbers, but still weak, as Saturday's all-out attacks by Iraqi armed militants, not foreigners, on Fallujah west of Baghdad clearly demonstrated.
There's been some Iraqi criticism that U.S. units around Fallujah stayed out of the battle that claimed the lives of at least 20 policemen. But the U.S. military says they were not needed and praised their Iraqi counterparts, especially as they had fought another battle the previous day, when a top U.S. general's convoy came under fire at the same place.
BRIG. GEN. MARK KIMMITT, U.S. DEPUTY CHIEF OF OPERATIONS: The coalition forces were in contact with the ICDC. No assistance was asked for. No assistance was rendered.
SADLER: But senior Iraqi security officials insist, their men and women urgently need more equipment, like armored vehicles and heavy firepower, to deter a growing number of attacks against them.
Brent Sadler, CNN, Baghdad.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: Iraq has dominated the Democratic presidential contest from the outset. Howard Dean is the reason. He put forward the issue during the campaign. And today, one of his top officials decided to leave the campaign, just hours after saying he would quit if Dean fails to win tomorrow's primary in Wisconsin.
Bob Franken reports from Milwaukee.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BOB FRANKEN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): For Howard Dean, the job is to campaign hard, as the saying goes, like there's no tomorrow, when many of his top advisers are saying that, after the Wisconsin primary, there may not be. In fact, Dean has had to say goodbye to one of those top advisers, the national campaign chairman, Steve Grossman, who has left the campaign for the greener political pastures in the land of Kerry. No hard feelings, says Dean.
HOWARD DEAN (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I consider him to be a friend. I consider him to have worked very, very hard for this campaign, including at times where we were not on the map.
FRANKEN: John Kerry is mapping his strategy for a presumed general election race against President Bush, who is just back from a NASCAR race.
SEN. JOHN KERRY (D-MA), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We don't need a president who just says, gentlemen, start your engines. We need a president who says, America, let's start our economy and put people back to work.
FRANKEN: John Edwards makes it clear every chance he gets that, no matter how he finishes in Wisconsin, he has not reached the finish line.
SEN. JOHN EDWARDS (D-NC), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I think, as the race is narrowing to two people that it will be clear what the differences are between us. I will, myself, point out substantive policy differences.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
FRANKEN: So, Kerry and Edwards are planning their next campaign moves. And Howard Dean and his campaign, well, he's trying to struggle to make sure it doesn't disintegrate -- Lou.
DOBBS: Bob, Howard Dean's numbers, at least in one poll, showed some dramatic growth over the past week. Is there any suggestion there in Milwaukee that there could be a surprise in the offing?
FRANKEN: Well, everybody seems to feel like John Kerry is prime for one. He's a little bit nervous about it, clearly. He keeps on saying he's not the front-runner, he's got to struggle every day. If Howard Dean does better than expected, it would probably push him over on the side of staying in the campaign.
Of course, there are all kinds of campaign aides who say that, if he does no better than it looks, then maybe now is the time to get out.
DOBBS: Bob Franken, thank you, reporting from Milwaukee.
New developments tonight in the growing controversy over the shipment of American jobs to cheap overseas labor jobs, what we call here "Exporting America." Last week, the White House provoked a firestorm of protests when the president's chairman of the Council of Economic Advisers said outsourcing makes sense. We've now learned that the White House economic adviser, Greg Mankiw, has made the same argument before. Peter Viles has the story.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
PETER VILES, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): "Ask the White House," online chats hosted by the White House where you can chat with anyone from the first lady to NASCAR driver Michael Waltrip. Now, a regular in those chats has been White House economic adviser Greg Mankiw, who has repeatedly said online what got him into trouble last week.
GREGORY MANKIW, CHAIRMAN, COUNCIL OF ECONOMIC ADVISERS: I think outsourcing is a growing phenomenon, but it's something that we should realize is probably a plus for the economy in the long run.
VILES: Facing political backlash, Mankiw later said he didn't mean to praise outsourcing, but, in the past, he has consistently said that it helps the American economy.
January 22, the question to him online was -- quote -- "Do you agree with the economists who say that outsourcing of jobs to countries like India, China and the Philippines actually benefits the U.S. economy?" And Mankiw's response was -- quote -- "This can be difficult for workers who are displaced, but the economy overall benefits."
December 5, answering a similar question, he said -- quote -- "Like all forms of international trade, outsourcing benefits an economy overall, though there are short-term costs as workers are displaced."
Because the administration has not backed off that position, Democrats are hammering the president on it.
SEN. CHARLES SCHUMER (D), NEW YORK: Until the administration has an answer, there's going to be behind the eight-ball. So far, they have not said a single thing, other than outsourcing is good.
KERRY: When this administration's top economic adviser puts out a report saying, it's a good thing for America to be outsourcing all these jobs, and the stock market is up and that's the measurement of America, I say, that's not the measurement of America.
VILES: Campaigning at a window factory in Florida, the president spoke about the economy and job creation, but did not mention outsourcing.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
VILES: The president did acknowledge last week that some American jobs have been lost to outsourcing. But the administration is still standing by that economic report that says outsourcing makes sense -- Lou.
DOBBS: The question largely is, to whom?
VILES: Sure.
DOBBS: And it amazes me that an economist with a background of Gregory Mankiw could say that it makes economic sense or sense for the economy, when what he's really saying and what many of the proponents of outsourcing are saying, is, it makes financial sense for the corporations doing it.
VILES: Sure.
DOBBS: Quite a different thing.
VILES: And that's the point John Kerry appears to be trying to get out when he says, yes, it's good for the stock market, but it's not good for America.
DOBBS: Frankly, personally, I'm not even sure it's good for the stock market.
Pete, thanks.
VILES: Sure.
DOBBS: Peter Viles.
Still ahead here, on the eve of the Wisconsin primary, I'll be joined by the chairwoman of Wisconsin's Democratic Party, Linda Honold.
And, in "Broken Borders," tonight, we've reported here to you about an immigration crisis, a media watchdog group says our reporting is skewed. Well, we'll put the record straight tonight. I'll be talking with FAIR executive director Peter Hart about that skewed reporting and truth and fairness and balance.
And shocking new details about the child sex abuse scandal in the Catholic Church, that scandal even larger than originally suggested -- that and a great deal more still ahead here.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Wisconsin's primary tomorrow could mark a decisive turn in the race for the Democratic presidential nomination. Wisconsin, in fact, hasn't played a role this big in the nominating process for many years.
My guest tonight is the chairwoman of the states' Democratic Party, Linda Honold. She joins us from Milwaukee.
Linda, good to have you here.
LINDA HONOLD, WISCONSIN DEMOCRATIC PARTY CHAIRWOMAN: It's good to be here.
DOBBS: Any suggestion on your part that we're going to -- Kerry obviously right now running ahead of the polls, but at least one poll showing Dean moving up. Any suggestion from you, at least, that there's going to be a surprise?
HONOLD: I kind of doubt that there will be a surprise. But this is Wisconsin, and we have a tendency to vote for mavericks, so you never know.
DOBBS: You vote for mavericks. You also have some very important issues facing you, as does every state in the Union and every state holding primaries. What are going to be the most important issues when voters go to the poll tomorrow?
HONOLD: I think the most important issue is jobs. Wisconsin has lost over 75,000 jobs in the last three years, most of them manufacturing.
Many people are unemployed. They're never going to get those jobs back. We just heard that, here in Milwaukee, 500 jobs are going to Mexico from Tower Automotive. So, that is the key issue. I think, second to that would be health care and the cost of health care. And then probably third would be education.
DOBBS: Which candidate, in your assessment, is coming up with the best answers on these tough issues?
HONOLD: Well, I think all of them are coming up with good answers on these very tough issues. They're going to appeal to different voters. And that's the piece that we're really not able to predict at this point.
The voters in Wisconsin, as you said earlier, for the first time in many years actually are hearing from the candidates up close and personal before they have to make their decision. And they're listening carefully, and I'm sure are going to make a considered judgment when they go to the polls tomorrow.
DOBBS: The biggest newspaper in your state, "The Milwaukee Journal Sentinel," endorsing John Edwards, will that have a significant effect on the outcome tomorrow?
HONOLD: I'm suspect it will have some effect. I'm not sure how much. Sometimes, an endorsement by a newspaper has exactly the opposite effect here in our state. So I don't know. It will have some effect. It's a question of which way.
DOBBS: Linda, we thank you very much for being with us. And you're brave and kind to stand out there in that cold Milwaukee weather. And we appreciate it very much, Linda Honold, the chairwoman of the Democratic Party in Wisconsin.
HONOLD: Thank you.
DOBBS: Coming up next here, a shocking new report tonight on the number of children now believed to have been abused by Catholic priests.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAVID CERULLI, SURVIVORS NETWORK OF THOSE ABUSED BY PRIESTS: I was led to believe I was the only one. So many of us believed that. And now we know we're not the only ones.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: Now the Catholic Church says the abuse was far more widespread than first thought, suggested and reported.
Also, the battle over special interest money has begun in earnest in the presidential campaign. We'll take a look at special interests and very special influence -- all of that and a great deal more still ahead here.
Please stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: The Catholic Church, later this month, will release a study on its massive sexual abuse scandal. Incredibly, the number of accusations in the original reports may have actually been underestimated, that according to a draft report viewed by CNN.
Maria Hinojosa has the story.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MARIA HINOJOSA, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): David Cerulli says the sexual abuse by a Pennsylvania priest began when he was just 14 years old. But he never said a word until 10 years later.
CERULLI: It was difficult for us to come forward, for me to come forward. And I was led to believe that I was the only one. So many of us believed that. And now we know we're not the only ones.
HINOJOSA: A draft report by John Jay College of Criminal Justice confirms that there were in fact thousands of victims. Based on a nationwide survey of the Catholic Church's own records, 11,000 children alleged they were sexually abused by priests between 1950 and the year 2002; 78 percent of those were children 11 to 17 years old.
CERULLI: It's a staggering number. One is too many, as we know. It's not surprising. However, we have to remember that this is a survey, a self-survey, by the bishops. So, even this number, we're skeptical of.
HINOJOSA: Of the 11,000 allegations, the church confirmed 6,700 of them. The report, commissioned by the Conference of Catholic Bishops and seen by CNN before its official publication on February 27, shows that more than half of the 4,450 accused priests had a single allegation against them, 25 percent had two or three allegations, 13 percent had four to nine allegations. A total of 147 priests were accused of abusing nearly 3,000 minors.
REV. THOMAS REESE, EDITOR, "AMERICA": There are 11,000 victims out there that we know of that are in need of help. And I think that it shows that the church needs a program to reach out to them to do whatever we can to help them in a healing process.
HINOJOSA: But victims say, this is only the tip of the iceberg.
CERULLI: We will never know the true extent of what has happened unless survivors come forward.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HINOJOSA: Lou, this is a draft of a final report that's to be released on February 27. And today, Bishop Wilton Gregory, president of the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops, said -- quote -- "These reports will be a very sobering and important milestone. My heart goes out to all who have suffered" -- Lou.
DOBBS: Maria, thank you very much.
Just ahead here, a media watchdog group has accused me of skewed reporting on immigration and illegal aliens. The executive director of the group, Peter Hart, will join me to set the record straight.
An election year, special interest groups, a powerful combination, a potent mixture. Left out of that combination and mixture, America's middle class. We'll have a special report.
And bringing home the votes, Democratic front-runner John Kerry looking strong, as Howard Dean faces a defection. We'll hear from our political roundtable, three of the country's top political journalists.
Also ahead:
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "LATE NIGHT WITH CONAN O'BRIEN")
TRIUMPH, THE INSULT COMIC DOG: You're in North America. Learn the language.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: Conan O'Brien's sock puppet offending the Canadian province of Quebec, the entire province, apparently.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Both Republicans and Democrats have now accused, in attack ads, one another of being tools of special interest groups. Well, in fact, special interest groups have funneled a record amount of money into this presidential election already. But while these groups are busy pushing their agendas, one very large group of people in this country finds itself left out once again.
Kitty Pilgrim reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KITTY PILGRIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The latest campaign weapon of choice, bashing rivals over support from special interest groups.
This Kerry ad slams President Bush.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, AD)
NARRATOR: He's taken $1.4 million from drug companies.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PILGRIM: And this video on President Bush's Web site goes after Kerry.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NARRATOR: Brought to you by the special interests, millions from executives.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PILGRIM: Charles Lewis, director of the Center For Public Integrity, has written a book on the financing of elections. He says, because special interests pay for campaigns, that buys influence, something the average citizen can't afford.
CHARLES LEWIS, DIRECTOR, THE CENTER FOR PUBLIC INTEGRITY: There is a have and have-not element of politics. And the haves are the ones who give money and frequently have things they'd like to get done, and they do get done frequently. And the rest of us out there -- and there is something going on here that that is, I think, a problem.
PILGRIM: In the last election, 96 percent of Americans did not give a penny to a candidate or a party. And the allowable donation to a candidate, a $2,000 check, comes from less than one-tenth of 1 percent of Americans.
The largest lobby groups in the last presidential election, the National Rifle Association, the AARP, National Federation of Independent Business, American Israel Public Affairs Committee, American Trial Lawyers, and the AFL-CIO, top categories, financial industries, energy, defense, labor and health care, all spending hundreds of millions of dollars in the political process.
In general, the Republican Party is supported by pharmaceuticals, energy, defense and banking, the Democrats by trial lawyers, labor unions and the entertainment industry.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: As important as money is to the entire political process, the ultimate political power in this country is free. It's the ability to vote -- Lou. DOBBS: But, often, a lot of noise to get through in order to exercise that.
PILGRIM: It certainly is.
DOBBS: Kitty, thank you very much.
Senator John Kerry is expected to tighten his claim on the presidential nomination for the Democratic Party in tomorrow's primary in Wisconsin.
Joining me now, our top panel of political journalists, Ron Brownstein, national political correspondent, "The L.A. Times," joining us from Milwaukee tonight, from Washington, Karen Tumulty, national political correspondent, "TIME" magazine, Roger Simon also from Washington. political editor of the "U.S. News and World Report."
Well, Karen, Roger, since you both are obviously warm and comfy here right now, I'm going to turn to Ron.
(LAUGHTER)
DOBBS: The defection today by Dean's campaign manager, the endorsement by "The Sentinel Journal," Milwaukee's biggest paper, of Senator Edwards, what's the impact on the election?
RON BROWNSTEIN, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, right now, in Milwaukee, it looks like, new state, same story.
We're seeing an incredible procession of primaries, I think, Lou, over the last three weeks in which essentially a national result is being imprinted state by state. In Wisconsin, as in Tennessee, as in Virginia, as in Missouri, John Kerry has been way ahead, largely on a conviction that he would be the strongest candidate against George W. Bush. John Edwards, as you mentioned, has shown some energy here. He got endorsed by the Milwaukee paper today, by the Madison paper and the Madison mayor over the weekend. He's drawing big crowds.
And Howard Dean has put really his last-ditch effort into the state. Right now, it looks like Kerry comfortably ahead and a fight for second place between Dean, who has a residual support from earlier incursions here, and Edwards, who seems to be moving up.
DOBBS: And, Karen, Senator Edwards seems to be pretty effective at securing newspaper endorsements. Is there any likelihood that we're going to see either Dean or Edwards withdraw tomorrow?
KAREN TUMULTY, NATIONAL POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT, "TIME": Well, the real person everyone is watching tomorrow is Howard Dean.
The word is that he is going to go home to Vermont for a couple of weeks, sort of think about what he wants to do with this political movement that he has created. Now, a lot of these people are die-hard Democrats. They are going to whoever the nominee is. But a lot of these people are brand new to politics. And, for the Democrats to win, it's going to be very important that these people both stay with their nominee and don't go off to some third-party candidate.
The other thing Howard Dean has done is tapped a new financial resource for the party. People who write these 40, 50, $60 checks that really add up. The party is really struggling with how they can tap into these people, and Howard Dean, too, is trying to figure out what kind of role he could play once his candidacy is over with.
DOBBS: Roger, Grossman -- Steve Grossman, Dean's campaign manager, said he would resign if Howard Dean didn't win tomorrow. Then he leaves, to join the Kerry campaign.
What's really going on there?
SIMON: There's no handbook for campaign chairman. But if there was one, it would probably say, you don't get to tell the candidate what to do. Greenberg bizarrely gave an interview to "The New York Times," well, if Dean doesn't win, he should obviously drop out, and I'm going to drop out. And I'm going to go over to Kerry. That's how the top of the ticket learned what the campaign chairman was saying. That's not really the way things are supposed to happen in politics. Dean gets to make his own decision on these things. He's not a first- time candidate. He's a first-time presidential candidate.
But after all he's served five and a half terms as governor of Vermont. He knows politics. He knows how to read a poll. He knows how to count delegates. There's also another thing, Lou, a strange dynamic has grown up that people seem to think that Howard Dean should get out. He's pathetic. He's making a fool of himself. He should drop out after Wisconsin. But Edwards should keep going on. He's great. He should make this a two-person fight. Well, John Edwards has exactly one more primary than John Dean has. He won one, Dean leads Edwards in the delegate count. So, the main contest that Edwards has won I think is for the hearts and minds of the media, and has a lot of support in the media.
DOBBS: Well, lacking support in the media right now is president George W. Bush. In Florida today talking about the economy, and a very upbeat message.
What is your take, Karen, as to the president's position, obviously it's lower in the polls, but what is his position strategically as the campaign is shaping up as between the presumptive candidate, John Kerry, and George Bush?
TUMULTY: Well, right now we have in fact seen the president slip a lot in the polls over the last three weeks. And the White House is very much trying to get its footing back. But the fact is that, you know, happy talk about the economy is not going to resonate in some of these key states, some of these states that are really going to matter in the fall. Florida, of course, is a big one. But in places like Ohio, Pennsylvania, people -- a lot of people have lost their jobs. And they're going to be looking for the president to express, you know, his understanding of their situation. And so I think that -- I think the tone of these sort of statements is really likely to change, because this president doesn't want to make the same mistake his father did, which is looking as though he was, you know, unaware of the real suffering that's going on out there.
DOBBS: And Roger, anything the president can do at this point?
Do you have any strategic advice?
SIMON: He could create a couple of million jobs. Karen is right, just saying that this can't be the -- you know, be happy, feel- good campaign, that his father tried to run. People know whether they're suffering or not. They know if they've lost jobs or fearful of losing their jobs or their neighbors have lost jobs. And George Bush has to create jobs. And the problem is, people are a lot smarter than me in business say that the government doesn't really create jobs, the private sector does. And the ability of a president, any president to effect that is limited.
DOBBS: Ron....
BROWNSTEIN: Can I jump in?
DOBBS: Surely.
BROWNSTEIN: Lou, a quick point. I thought in the president's trip to Florida, what he did yesterday was really just as important, going to the NASCAR race. Because it's really a symbol of where this race may be going. A lot of the swing voters for the fall are blue collar voters who are probably economically dissatisfied with the record of the administration. They're receptive to a tough on-trade message that all the Democrats are offering, but they're also culturally conservative. And that's where the administration and the president are going to have some opportunities to paint John Kerry as a social liberal. He has the defense of being a veteran, but he has a very liberal voting record on a number of social issues. And you can see the cross-pressures on these voters developing already. Where Democrats are going to them on economic grounds, and the administration making a tax, national strength, national defense and cultural argument.
DOBBS: Ron Brownstein in the cold of Milwaukee tonight.
Karen Tumulty and Ron Simon comfortable in CNN studios. It's always warm and comfortable in our studios in Washington, D.C.
Thank you all for being with us.
"Tonight's Thought" is on our government, it comes from one of the countries founding fathers. One of the men we're celebrating this President's Day.
How soon we forget history. Government is not reason. Government is not eloquence. It is force. And like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master" -- George Washington.
"Tonight's Poll" question is on a subject we've been covering here for more than a year, the illegal alien crisis that faces this country.
And tonight our question is, do you think our reporting on illegal aliens is accurate, yes or no?
Cast your vote at cnn.com/lou. We'll have the results for you coming up for you later in the broadcast.
And coming up next, "Exporting America." The growing debate over free trade has created a multi-million-dollar lobby. We'll have that special report for you.
And "Broken Borders." Tonight, Peter Hart, the director of fairness and accuracy and reporting has called our reporting on illegal aliens slanted and inaccurate. He is our guest. We'll find out about fair and balanced and great deal more. Still ahead, please stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: "Exporting America" tonight. Free trade is an idea that has had few critics over the years, particularly the last 20 years. However, the exporting of American jobs to cheap foreign labor markets has changed all of that, and now proponents of free trade are finding it more expensive to support.
Lisa Sylvester has the story.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LISA SYLVESTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): New York Senator Chuck Schumer used to be in the free trade camp. Today he has second thoughts.
SEN. CHARLES SCHUMER (D), NEW YORK: It's always been the theory that all American citizens benefited from free trade. But if the best jobs are going overseas, if the high-paid jobs are going overseas, then it may be the rest of the world at the expense of the United States.
SYLVESTER: Corporate groups watching free trade support wither away are launching a counteroffensive. This election season, Wal- Mart, one of china's largest trading partners, has given more than $1 million in campaign contributions, making it the second biggest organizational giver so far, according to election data compiled by the Center for Responsive Politics. The U.S. Chamber of Commerce and the business round table spent more than $20 million in lobbyist spending in 2000. The Cato Institute is also pushing the free-trade agenda. The think tank was co-founded by Charles Coke, a billionaire who made his money in the energy American industry. Today only 7 percent of it's $13 million dollar budget comes from corporations, but the company's biggest corporate sponsors include FedEx, Microsoft and Time Warner, the parent company of CNN.
SCHUMER: Cato has a well-earned reputation in Washington for being independent. We criticize both parties. We're known for sticking to principal.
SYLVESTER: On the other side of the issue are labor unions who have consistently topped the list as big givers in Washington. The International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers donated nearly $5 million in 2000, 98 percent to Democrats. That same year, Teamsters gave Democrats the bulk of $3 million in federal campaign donations. Labor unions have also pushed their message through the Economic Policy Institute, a Washington think-tank backed by more than two dozen unions.
STEVEN WEISS, CENTER FOR RESPONSIVE POLITICS: Labor unions know how to play this game as well. Very often they're running right up against businesses on issues. And labor unions know that if they were to lay down, and just give up on the fight, that a whole lot of issues very important to them would not go their way.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SYLVESTER: Money may not buy votes on Capitol Hill, but it does ensure one thing, access to those who make the decisions. Money talks. Corporate groups have been very effective using money to gain access. They did so in 2000 when they successfully lobbied to permanently open commercial ties with China. And in 2002 when they fought to give President Bush new authority to make trade deals -- Lou.
DOBBS: Lisa, thank you very much. Lisa Sylvester from Washington.
Now let's take a look at some of your thoughts on "Exporting America." Elizabeth Ham of Tulsa, Oklahoma, wrote in to say, "now that we know that it is a good thing to ship jobs overseas, maybe we'll hear that reducing the bans on air and water pollution also is a good thing. Good, that is, for drug companies, funeral homes, utilities, gas, oil and the stock market. How sweet it is."
Brendan O'Sullivan of Phoenix. "I've been following "Exporting America" and your interviews. I've noticed that none of your interviewed guests are ever able to give you a solid answer to the question, what specific jobs should we be retrained for. Whenever you pose that question to them, it is like you are showing a mirror to a vampire."
Now from Luis Panagi of Clifton Park, New York. "Trying to solve today's problems of our country's economies with recipes written by economists in the 19th century, or even in the 20th, is akin to trying to take an X-ray with a candle."
Andrea from Boise, Idaho. "Why isn't anyone using the word sweat shop. Since sweat shops are illegal in the United States, employers just go to countries where they don't have to worry about legalities. Then they call what they're doing by a nice name."
And Thomas Stroud, Chattanooga, Tennessee. "I'm no economist but it occurs to me that the American worker is also the American consumer. Every American job that is eliminated in favor of cheaper overseas labor equates to a consumer taken out of the marketplace. Unemployed Americans cannot afford to purchase products, even if they are produced less expensively overseas. Henry Ford had the same idea 100 years ago." We love hearing from you. Please send your thoughts, your comments to loudobbs@CNN.com. We have another thought to share with you tonight on this President's day. It is on corporate power. And it comes from one of the leaders that we celebrate on this President's day. "I see in the near future a crisis approaching that unnerves me and causes me to tremble for the safety of my country. As a result of the war, corporations have been enthroned. An era of corruption in high places will follow, and the money power will endeavor to prolong its reign by working on the prejudices of the people until wealth is aggregated in a few hands and the republic is destroyed." Those words from Abraham Lincoln.
Another reminder now, if we may, to vote in our poll. The question, "do you think our reporting on illegal aliens is accurate? Yes or no." Cast your vote at CNN.com/lou. Just ahead, we'll find out why my next guest says our reporting is inaccurate. He says our reporting has not been fair and balanced. Peter Hart of the media watchdog group F.A.I.R. joins me.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Under the title "Broken Borders," we've been extensively reporting here on a worsening illegal alien crisis in this country. And it's grabbed the attention of many. While the feedback we've received from you, the viewers, has been overwhelmingly positive and supportive, some, of course, have not shared in the sentiment including my next guest here tonight. Peter Hart is the director of F.A.I.R., a media watchdog group. And we're delighted to have you here.
Obviously, the reason we invited you here is because you are critical of what we were doing, suggesting it was skewed. And I want to go through a few things to set the record straight.
You said, first, the show tends to portray the debate over immigration in the negative. Insofar as the safety, security, carrying diseases, destroying our national parks, stealing health care and education -- stealing was your word, not mine, of course. That reporting from those perspectives relies on guests who confirm those positions and you suggested -- you didn't suggest, you stated outright that we balanced our guests far more in favor of those anti- immigration rather than pro-immigration, correct?
PETER HART, ACTIVISM DIRECTOR, FAIRNESS ACCURACY IN REPORTING: More or less. You know, I think the guest list tilted toward people who were more critical of immigrants, anti-immigrant advocates than it did to people on the other side. We studied the whole month of October, for example, trying to isolate one period. And we found ten appearances by two different groups that were very critical of immigrants. And then just four from the other side.
DOBBS: I think it actually turned out it was six for that period, as I recall.
HART: If you include Cato Institute.
DOBBS: We do. Obviously Dan Griswold is very much pro- immigration, right?
HART: They come at it from a different perspective.
DOBBS: A different ideological persepective but you would...
HART: The content of their perspective is different.
DOBBS: So we asked our folks to go back and Leslie De La Henry (ph) and some of our people here went through and what they came up with is a ratio of 23 to 19. The 23 was pro-illegal alien, or pro- immigration, depending on how you want to construe it, to 19 the other way. And there's a list of the companies. And I happen to -- as you know, Peter and I have known one another over a period of time, the fact of the matter is, I believe in sunshine on everything. And your point about balancing is a valid one. It's just in this instance, the facts support us, and I want to make sure the facts are out there. Clearly, we had more anti--the position that I've taken on this broadcast -- than pro the position I'm taking on the broadcast. Does that satisfy you?
HART: You know, we did a count and came to a much different conclusion. I think the tone of the segments and the stories you select, I think, are very important as well, talking about illegal aliens coming across the border carrying deadly diseases...
DOBBS: That's absolutely true.
HART: Taking our health care, taking education, taking advantage of free education. They're destroying the national parks. They're committing sex crimes. And the rest of the media...
DOBBS: Are you denying that?
HART: I think that's...
DOBBS: Are you denying that they do those things?
HART: What I'm saying is that when you as a journalist, and you know this for sure, that journalists choose certain segments and they choose certain topics and they amplify those things. You've chosen day in and day out to do reporting immigration and I think it leads to a sense of scapegoating this population. That there's a very vulnerable population. They don't usually have people advocating for their positions. And instead, night after night, we hear that they're responsible for this array of social problems on the show.
DOBBS: Not only social problems, but economic problems. And very serious problems. And I think on this show I actually gave credit to President Bush, although I think the policy he's advocated, is entirely the wrong approach to a national immigration crisis. It's the beginning of a dialogue. But in each of those instances, if you don't like the tone, that's one thing. But I don't think you can argue, nor did you, with the facts as we presented them. I understand cumulatively.
HART: That's not correct, actually. DOBBS: Well, let's see if this will satisfy you. "There is a criticism of the accuracy of information. The show has suggested there was a cost to taxpayers of $20 billion per year due to illegal immigration. Dobbs and the correspondent refer to a study that does not find that at all." You wrote that. "They use the National Academy of Sciences study done in 1997. The definitive report," your words, not mine. "The NAS study comes up with a net range of between one and 10 billion and a net benefit to the U.S. economy very different," you say, "from a $20 billion cost." Correct?
HART: Sure.
DOBBS: Now, our people, Lisa Sylvester, Chuck Taylor (ph), the producer on the piece and a number of other folks went back to take a look, because we can make mistakes just like everyone else. But in this instance, we didn't make a mistake. I'd like to show you on the report here. If we've got the screen.
This is the -- if you would, Peter, look at the screen here. Benefit, $1 to $10 billion. Cost, $11.4 billion to $20.2 billion. You suggest that that was inaccurate. But in point of fact, the NAS study -- and I want to show you that right here.
HART: I'm very familiar with that.
DOBBS: OK, you're very familiar with it. What does that say?
HART: And if you read this through, and you watch...
DOBBS: Oh, we did.
HART: ... and you read the next chapter, the next whole chapter explains that dynamic scoring is how they prefer to analyze this question. That's why in the executive summary they don't reach the conclusion of $20 billion.
They refer to this as a snapshot. And instead they say, the better statistical approach -- and this might be too complicated.
DOBBS: No, our audience is very, very savvy.
HART: ... that preferred statistical scoring (ph) is the dynamic scoring, which would lead to a totally different conclusion. I've talked to the people who wrote the report. And they said, I have no idea where $20 billion would come from.
DOBBS: Well, it comes from, interestingly enough...
HART: And it comes from the Center for Immigration Studies.
DOBBS: No, no, it doesn't. It comes from the national...
HART: They've interpreted -- yeah, but they've interpreted their findings.
DOBBS: Well, that's their issue. That isn't who we were quoting. And in point in fact, you were quoting "The New York Times," not the National Academy of Sciences, and that's our reporting from the source. You're going by "The New York Times..."
HART: No, I went to the source.
DOBBS: ... which was entirely in error.
HART: I went to the source and I went to the people who did the report. You can call them and ask them if you'd like.
DOBBS: Would you like to read your article?
HART: I wrote it, actually.
DOBBS: You cite "The New York Times." May 18, 1997. In other words, that benefits outweigh the costs. That's totally inaccurate. In point in fact, on page six of the study, "the domestic gain may be on the order of $1 to $10 billion." That was reported by "The New York Times," which failed to take note, on page 288, page 286, this number, which is the net cost.
In point of fact, we not only say it costs $20 billion, based on the definitive work, as you say, we say that it costs workers, hard working American citizens, $190 billion a year, $190 billion to $200 billion a year in depressed wages as a result of excessive immigration. And that's the study of George Borjas at Harvard University. So when you criticize us, it seems to me there's a high order of responsibility on your part to capture the reality of it.
HART: Which is exactly what I did. If you continue reading that report, you'll find that is not their conclusion. That's a number they present in a table.
DOBBS: I need to use one other point of this. The suggestion in this is, that by taking an anti-illegal alien position, which is really a pro-border security position, a pro-rational immigration policy, that there's something wrong with that. Because we're not following the orthodoxy set by other agendas. Is there any of that, or is that just a simple misinterpretation on my part?
HART: I don't think that was my point. That might be what some other people conclude. I think what we were trying to say is that the tone and the story selections overwhelmingly framed in the negative. And in the period we were studying, the guest lists were overwhelmingly in support of your point of view.
DOBBS: Do you feel better about it now?
HART: About what?
DOBBS: Of the balance?
HART: No, no.
DOBBS: You don't?
HART: No.
DOBBS: You don't? In that case, we can't do anything with you. You're talking about our accuracy. You're the one who's wrong. We actually balanced it in favor of the people taking a position against us. If I can't help you there, Peter, I can't help you all. But we appreciate you being here.
HART: My pleasure.
DOBBS: Thank you.
We turn now to the result of our poll, which is on the subject of our reporting efforts, in which we asked if you think our reporting on illegal aliens is inaccurate. Seventy-one percent of you said yes. Or excuse me, is accurate. I better get this right. I was already wrong about being accurate. Do you think our reporting on illegal aliens is accurate? Seventy-percent of you said yes; 29 percent said no. Peter, you have to be impressed with the equanimity with which I was going to take that result.
Thank you very much, Peter Hart.
Coming up next, Canada lures Conan O'Brien to the north to boost tourism. But Canadians got a little more than they bargained for.
But first, an update on the list of companies our staff has confirmed to be exporting America. These are American companies either sending American jobs overseas or choosing to employ cheap foreign labor instead of American workers. Tonight's additions include ADC, Affiliated Computer Services, Apple, CNA, Dana corporation, Dun & Bradstreet, Ethan Allen, Federated Department Stores, FreeBorders, Fruit of the Loom, Helen of Troy, Kulicke & Soffa, McKinsey & Company. Let me say that one again, McKinsey & Company, architects as they are. Quark, Stanley Works, Sun Microsystems, Symbol Technologies, UnitedHealth Group.
For the complete list of companies, please log onto cnn.com/lou. We'll continue in a moment. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: An exciting discovery to report tonight. Scientists have found a new galaxy at the far reaches of our universe. It's now the farthest known object from Earth. The galaxy, and all of this is incomprehensible, but nonetheless I'll say it, 13 billion light years away. Perhaps you comprehend that. I don't. It's a long way.
Scientists estimate it's a young galaxy still in its formative years. This discovery means unprecedented study of how early galaxies are formed is possible.
And closer to home, somewhat, one of NASA's two Mars rovers hit a new one-day distance record on the surface of the Red Planet. The Spirit rover traveled more than 88 feet toward a crater that scientists are, of course, anxious to study, and bringing back with it these miraculous pictures. Finally tonight, some Canadians are laughing at a comedy sketch from "The Late Night With Conan O'Brien Show." That show broadcast from Toronto last week, part of the city's efforts to boost its economy. But instead of spreading good will and investment, the show sparked controversy. One of Conan's regular skits is the hand puppet named Triumph the Insult Comic Dog. Apparently, Triumph lived up to his name, insulting many French Canadians.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "LATE NIGHT WITH CONAN O'BRIEN")
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You're in North America! Learn the language!
You're French, yet Canadian, yes? You're obnoxious and dumb.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: Canadian lawmakers, who financed the show's trip to Toronto, say they want their money back.
That's our show for tonight. We thank you for being with us.
Tomorrow, the United States has always been the most innovative nation on Earth, but some say that is changing. Dave McCurdy of Electronic Industries Alliance will be our guest. Also, the Wisconsin primary marks a turning point in the race for the White House, we're told. We'll see. Our panel of top political journalists will be here.
For all of us here, good night from New York. Anderson Cooper coming up next.
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Class Americans Be Heard in 2004 Election?>
