CNN.com - Transcripts

Transcript Providers

Return to Transcripts main page

Lou Dobbs Tonight

Chaos in Iraq; Interview With Senator Joseph Biden

Aired April 05, 2004 - 18:00 ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR: Tonight, chaos in Iraq, helicopter gunships firing in Baghdad. U.S. Marines have surrounded the city of Fallujah.

BRIG. GEN. MARK KIMMITT, U.S. DEPUTY CHIEF OF OPERATIONS: Individuals who create violence, incite violence, who execute violence against persons inside of Iraq will be hunted down and captured or killed.

DOBBS: Senator Joseph Biden, the ranking Democrat on the Foreign Relations Committee, is our guest tonight.

In "Broken Borders," Americans arm themselves to protect their families and homes from smugglers bringing drugs and illegal aliens across the border.

Also tonight, one of the most comprehensive surveys ever on the export of American jobs to cheap overseas markets.

The American economy is growing. Productivity is rising. Corporate profits are soaring, but wages for middle-class Americans are flat. We'll have a special report.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT for Monday, April 5. Here now for an hour of news, debate and opinion, Lou Dobbs.

DOBBS: Good evening.

Tonight, U.S. forces in Iraq are on the offensive. In Fallujah, more than 1,000 American Marines surrounded the city after the brutal killing and mutilation of four American contractors there last week. In Baghdad, troops used helicopter gunships against armed supporters of a radical Shiite cleric. And the coalition says authorities have issued an arrest warrant against that cleric, Muqtada al-Sadr.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DOBBS (voice-over): The coalition command has declared Al-Sadr an outlaw. Al-Sadr has retreated to his mosque, located in Kufa in central Iraq. He says he will not surrender.

In Baghdad, Al-Sadr's supporters clashed with U.S. troops again today, one day after Shiite gunmen kill eight American soldiers. During today's battles, U.S. Apache helicopters opened fire on Sadr's followers. It is unclear how many people were killed or wounded in the attack. The coalition maintains the June 30 deadline for the transfer of sovereignty to Iraqis stands.

DAN SENOR, COALITION PROVISIONAL AUTHORITY: Elections will determine who governs Iraq, not mob violence.

DOBBS: In Basra in Southern Iraq, about 1,000 Al-Sadr supporters took over the governor's mansion. British troops there are trying to negotiate a peaceful end to the occupation, but U.S. commanders in Baghdad are threatening a tough response if the violence continues.

KIMMITT: Individuals who create violence, who incite violence, who execute violence against persons inside of Iraq will be hunted down and captured or killed. It is that simple.

DOBBS: The coalition command is also taking a tough line with Saddam Hussein supporters in Fallujah, where four American contractors were ambushed, killed and mutilated last week. U.S. Marines and Iraqi troops have surrounded the city. Commanders say it's just the beginning of a major operation to reestablish control of Fallujah.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

DOBBS: President Bush today said the United States will not be deterred by the rising violence in Iraq. President Bush said the June 30 deadline for the transfer of power to the Iraqis remains firm.

Elaine Quijano reports from the White House -- Elaine.

ELAINE QUIJANO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hello to you, Lou.

Well, President Bush said despite the heightened violence in Iraq, he is sticking to that June 30 deadline for the transfer of power to the Iraqi people, the president making those comments today while on a stop to Charlotte, North Carolina, where he gave a speech at a community college on job training and the economy.

Now, after that speech, the president met with the family of one of the U.S. troops killed in Iraq. And he held an impromptu news conference afterward in which he told reporters that he said to the family the administration would stay the course.

Now, the president also said the closer it gets to that June 30 deadline the more likely the people will challenge the coalition's will and the will of the Iraqi people, but he emphasized pushing back that date was not an option.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The message to the Iraqi citizens is they don't have to fear that America will turn and run, and that's an important message for them to hear. If they think that we're not sincere about staying the course, many people will not continue to take a risk toward -- take the risk toward freedom and democracy. (END VIDEO CLIP)

QUIJANO: Now, the president's comments come at a time when his approval rating is down slightly, according to a new Pew Research Poll. When asked how the president was handling his job as president, about 43 percent said they approved, down slightly from late March, when that same number was around 47 percent.

Yet when asked whether the U.S. made the right decision by using military force in Iraq, about 57 percent of those polled said, yes, up two points from mid-March. Now, no doubt the Bush administration is looking very closely at the events in Iraq from a political perspective as well, very mindful of the images coming out of Iraq. At this point, though, the president is sticking to that deadline, remaining firm that June 30, that transfer of power will happen -- Lou.

DOBBS: Elaine, thank you -- Elaine Quijano from the White House.

Joining me now from Baghdad, Jane Arraf.

Jane, what is the security situation in Baghdad tonight?

JANE ARRAF, CNN BAGHDAD BUREAU CHIEF: Lou, it's relatively calm, although there has been some gunfire heard in Sadr City.

Now, Sadr City, of course, is that neighborhood where all the action took place on Sunday. And we're talking about the biggest engagement, the biggest clashes in the capital since the end of the war. The U.S. has made clear it is cracking down on this militia belonging to a radical Shia cleric. And not only that. As you know, it has laid down the gauntlet issuing a warrant for his arrest.

This arrest -- the warrant has been around for some time. The U.S. hasn't made it public. Now it says that it will try to go after him, a very tricky thing, given that he is in the holy city of Kufa, near Najaf, apparently in a mosque -- Lou.

DOBBS: Why can't the Iraqi security forces and U.S. troops maintain order?

ARRAF: Well, essentially because it is still in some respects a lawless place. Now, it's a lot less lawless than it used to be. And when you talk to military officials, they point out, as do ordinary Iraqis, that common crime really has decreased. And that was one of the big problems, but basically what we're seeing is perhaps a surge in the very dramatic attacks, the suicide bombs, the attacks such as yesterday, which as I said was unprecedented, really, has taken a lot of the focus.

And in terms of providing security, there just aren't enough of them. There are about half the number of Iraqi police that are needed, half the number of civil defense forces. In fact, they didn't even get involved in the clashes on Sunday. And the Iraqi police themselves, Lou, some of them melted away, leaving their police stations. It's a very new situation, and it's not intended that they would be up to speed right now -- Lou.

DOBBS: Jane, ordinary law-abiding Iraqis are the principal victims of all of this violence, whomever it's directed against. Why are those ordinary Iraqis tolerating this level of violence?

ARRAF: You know, a couple of reasons. I guess the most basic one is that if a neighbor of you or I were launching rocket-propelled grenades, I doubt that we would go out and try to stop them singlehandedly. And that's essentially what a lot of people are facing. They just do not feel safe speaking out against this or doing something about it, although U.S. forces say they are getting more Iraqi intelligence.

The other part is, and this can't be discounted, that a lot of Iraqis at this point are not in love with U.S. forces. Now, many of them would like them to stay, because they're afraid of what would happen when they leave, but they're rather passively agreeing to let them stay, rather than active doing something about improving the security situation. But essentially the bottom line, Lou, is people are scared.

DOBBS: Jane Arraf in Baghdad, thank you.

As the violence in Iraq escalates, the Pentagon is now considering whether to send in more U.S. troops. General John Abizaid, the head of Central Command, said he wants options for reinforcement in the next 48 hours.

Senior Pentagon correspondent Jamie McIntyre reports -- Jamie.

JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN MILITARY AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Well, Lou, the Pentagon insists it's just prudent military planning, but sources confirm to CNN that the violent demonstrations by Iraqi Shiites over the weekend has prompted General Abizaid to ask for options to be drawn up for reinforcements just in case.

U.S. commanders believe they currently have adequate forces on the ground and no request for additional troops has yet been made. The planning, Pentagon officials stress, is for a worst-case scenario in the unanticipated event that the violence -- quote -- "gets out of control." Because the U.S. is in the middle of a massive military rotation, it has a temporary uptick in the number of troops, up from about 120,000 earlier this year to more like 134,000.

And sources say the most likely scenario is to ship some of the troops around within the country, repositioning them to hot spots if that's what's needed. However, they are drawing up options to bring out additional troops if needed. And still this contingency planning, though, shows how concerned the Pentagon is with what's going on with the Shiite majority, which up until now had been pretty much cooperating with U.S. troops. They feel the situation in Fallujah is one they can handle pretty much with a brute force crackdown, but this situation they feel needs more finesse as they try to take out this Muslim cleric and about 3,000 members of his private army without inciting the Shiites in some sort of backlash -- Lou. DOBBS: Jamie, this uprising over the weekend, the most violent in recent memory, March the second most violent month in terms U.S. casualties since the war ended, major combat operations, why is there this continued avoidance of the issue of raising the number of American forces there to protect our people as well as the Iraqis?

MCINTYRE: Well, they continue to believe that more American forces can at times be counterproductive. Now, they realize that in this latest scenario, there may be a necessity, for instance, to be able to respond to police stations faster. There were four police stations taken over by anti-U.S. militias in this latest incident.

So they're saying they may need to move some forces around. But they continue to believe that the answer is to reduce the number of forces overall and try to keep them out of the crossfire, but they recognize they have to reestablish order in order to prevent things from spiraling out of control.

DOBBS: Jamie, thank you very much -- Jamie McIntyre, our senior Pentagon correspondent.

The two men who lead the Senate Foreign Relations Committee are now questioning whether Iraq will be ready for the June 30 handover of sovereignty.

Senator Joseph Biden says Iraq could fall into civil war. He joins us tonight from Wilmington, Delaware.

Senator, good to have you with us.

SEN. JOSEPH BIDEN (D), DELAWARE: Happy to be here, Lou.

DOBBS: Senator, is it your judgment in fact that we should delay the June 30 handover?

BIDEN: Well, I don't notice the answer to that, because I don't know what the administration's plan is. The administration has not laid out to whom we're going to turn over sovereignty, who's going to be in charge of negotiating the differences among the ethnic contingencies once we do turn over authority, whether it is going to be a new super embassy, whether or not we're going to have the international community participating in this at all.

So the problem I have is there's no plan, but we have raised expectations, Lou, that we are going to turn over sovereignty, and if we do not turn it over on June the 30th, then I think you're going to give credence to the Sadrs of the world in Iraq who say, look, we acted up. We did terrible things and they backed down. They walked away.

And so we're in a dilemma. We need a plan. We need a plan. We don't have one yet.

DOBBS: Senator, without putting too fine a point on it, you, Senator Lugar, lead the Senate Foreign Relations Committee. It would seem that your committee would be intricately involved in all planning, all strategy, having to do with U.S. policy. Are you really suggesting that this administration is not including your committee in the planning, in the strategy for Iraq?

BIDEN: Yes.

DOBBS: Why is that being tolerated?

BIDEN: Quite frankly, when you're in the minority, you don't have much control.

I think we should be -- and I think Senator Lugar is going to start to hold hearings again. I think we need -- we should be holding hearings right now examining exactly what the plan is, demanding to know whether or not there is going to be a new U.N. resolution, demanding whether or not we are going to have the equivalent of a high commissioner, demanding to know who's going to call the shots.

For example, what happens when Chalabi makes a deal with Sistani, which I do not put beyond him, to alter the constitution as it has been temporarily laid out and somehow eviscerate the rights of women? Who's going to demarche them and say, guys, go back to the tent and figure out, this is not acceptable, like we did in Afghanistan? Who is going to do that, an American ambassador? Or is that going to be the international community headed up by a guy name Brahimi or someone like that who brings along the force of the entire world with him, not the physical force?

We provide that, but brings along the moral and political force for the rest of the world. One of the reasons this thing blew up when it did is that, in Fallujah, is -- and excuse me, with Sadr, is that we shut down his newspaper. That was the right thing to do, probably, and arrested his No. 2. But what that did was, it was a naked, clear act on the part of the American. And the Americans did it, so the Americans are held responsible.

We have to get some distance here in terms of who's going to be making these tough decisions.

DOBBS: And to be clear, Senator, you're not suggesting that in any way the United States withdraw its force from Iraq.

BIDEN: No, absolutely not. We cannot withdraw.

Look, the president says, if we don't fight them in Baghdad, we're going to have to fight them in Boston. I don't buy that for a second. The reason we can't withdraw is because, if we leave, there would likely be a civil war. If there's a civil war, you'll see the Iranians and the Turks involved in Iran. You will see chaos ensue in the Middle East.

I predict you will see the Jordanian government fall. You'll probably see the Saudi government fall. I think there will be chaos in the region for the better part of a generation. It's geopolitical. We'll embolden Iran. That's why we cannot fail. And Europe knows that, Lou. They're ready to come in. They're just not ready to come in under the tutelage and sponsorship of an American ambassador, an American person calling all the shots, because they don't think we've handled it very well.

DOBBS: Senator Joseph Biden, thanks for being here.

BIDEN: Thank you for having me.

DOBBS: More arrests today in the global war against radical Islamist terror. Police in Spain arrested two terrorist suspects. Those arrests came after five radical Islamists blew themselves up Saturday during a police siege of an apartment building in Madrid. Spanish police are hunting for more terrorists in connection with the bombings of commuter trains in Madrid last month; 191 people killed in those attacks, almost 2,000 wounded.

France has also been rounding up radical Islamists. Police there today arrested 13 people. They're suspected of involvement in a series of suicide bomb attacks in Morocco last year.

Coming up here, should we put more troops in Iraq? Should we disarm all of Iraq? General David Grange is our guest.

And Americans living along the Mexican border are being forced to take up arms to defend their homes and families from smugglers. We'll have a special report.

Also, Americans are working harder than ever, but receiving less for their rising product activity. It's simply another tightening on this country's middle class. Our special report is next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: U.S. troops face a huge challenge, trying to disarm supporters of the radical cleric Muqtada Al-Sadr. Yesterday, Al-Sadr mobilized thousands of his armed militia in towns and cities all across Iraq.

Joining me now, CNN military analyst General David Grange.

General, the first question has to be, with 13 Americans dead since Saturday, why are we failing to provide security for our own people as well as for Iraqis who want peace?

RETIRED BRIG. GEN. DAVID GRANGE, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Well, security is tough. They've got to keep the pressure on, especially right now. It's going to call more casualties as you put the pressure on, but it has to be done. You cannot show that you're fading out, you're withdrawing at all from this situation, even though it's tough, maybe tougher than it's been in months.

But they have to be strong about it. There will be casualties, but in the long run, it will work out.

DOBBS: General, in the long run, it will work out. I guess you can put me down amongst those who are starting to be very suspicious of the long run.

The fact is that we've heard a number of responses from the Pentagon, from CENTCOM, for our commanders in Iraq now for more than a year. And our men and woman in uniform in Iraq, General, do they not deserve some straightforward answers? For example, today we heard from CENTCOM suggesting that we will strike at a time and place of our choosing. This is rhetoric we've heard time and time again, yet the security situation in Iraq remains serious and a rising level of violence.

GRANGE: It is, and -- but I do support the words at the time and place of our choosing, because actually it should have been done a little bit earlier, but that wasn't the time that was picked. However, it's going to start. The area is cordoned off. And I think we're going to see some pretty tough action here tonight, or if not, early tomorrow.

DOBBS: General Abizaid today saying that he had asked his commanders, the head of CENTCOM, for options on reinforcements for Iraq. This debate -- and you, General, among the foremost of those suggesting that we needed more forces in the right order in Iraq.

General Abizaid had said that he would wait until his commanders in the field ask him for reinforcements or more troops before moving ahead. Does this represent, in your judgment, a change in his policy and his leadership and the situation?

GRANGE: Well, there's plans out there. He may be asking for some updates in particular areas.

But, see, I think in this situation, you have to be able to turn the thermostat up and down rapidly. If nothing else, I think it's prudent to deploy elements called emergency deployment exercises, if nothing else, to areas of Iraq that people see visually, that images are captured, with the news media, that forces are put in quickly, rapidly to crush anything that starts up, then move them right out again.

You can leave them there for two months, two weeks, whatever. They can train and then move them out. But you have to be able to show that you can do this immediately and surge when issues start to get out of hand a little bit, and then turn it back down again. But you need that flexibility.

DOBBS: The cleric, Muqtada Al-Sadr, his militia, thousands upon thousands of Shia militia rising up, the question has to be put forward straightforwardly, directly. Why in the world does he have a militia? Why is a militia tolerated in any part of Iraq with U.S. forces in charge in Iraq?

GRANGE: I think the militia thing got out of hand early on. That could have been nipped in the bud early, but it was not. And so these militias were established.

And then there's concern if you go after the militia, you'll instigate a civil war. But they need to be arrested. I'm glad to see that an Iraqi judge issued the warrant. It's tough to go in there and fight 3,000 people. Is that the way to do it? Don't know. Maybe the best thing to do is to isolate him, keep him from controlling people and just show you're not going to put up with it and, when you get the right situation, grab him or kill him. It has to be done.

I think closing down the newspaper was a mistake. Physically, there's indirect means that we have in information warfare to discredit that newspaper without physically locking it down and letting them use that for disinformation. So that was a couple mistakes made. But they have to go after this guy now. They have to isolate him, discredit him with other clerics that support the transition to democratic governance.

DOBBS: General, do you believe that this is a job awaiting American forces, the disarming of Iraqis?

GRANGE: You have to disarm the population if you're going to establish rule of law for the long term. Millions of weapons, thousands of tons of equipment has been captured and destroyed, but there's much more out there. And just like after Germany in World War II, every weapon was confiscated and destroyed. There can be no exceptions.

The only people that need weaponry in this case is the police, civil defense and the Iraqi army.

DOBBS: Why has that not been obvious to the CPA, the U.S. command in Iraq?

GRANGE: Well, I think it may be obvious. It just takes time to find the stuff. There's cache sites all over this country, but the pressure really has to be put on to get that wrapped up now.

DOBBS: General David Grange, thank you.

GRANGE: My pleasure.

DOBBS: Still ahead here, big business benefits. Employees are suffering. The middle class is being squeezed in this country. Workers are doing more for their companies and receiving less in return. Is the system working?

And President Bush plans to overhaul the country's federal job training program as Senator Kerry meets with some of the nation's unemployed. We'll take a critical look at some of the president's proposals when we continue.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: Tonight, a new study highlights what we've been reporting here for weeks, the squeeze on this country's middle class. The study finds that American workers are more productive than ever. There is a problem, however. They're not receiving their fair share of the rewards.

Peter Viles reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

PETER VILES, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Campaigning in North Carolina, the president says what seems obvious: A more productive worker makes more money. The trouble is, it's not working out that way. Productivity is up. Corporate profits are up, but wages are flat. A new study from Northeastern University showed median weekly earnings in real dollars were flat from 2001 to 2003.

PAUL HARRINGTON, NORTHEASTERN UNIVERSITY: Unless we get worker compensation to rise, it's very hard for those families to really participate in what should be a generalized prosperity, but seems to be concentrated right now in the corporate sector.

VILES: Never before have American corporations earned so much and employees so little during a recovery. In the four previous economic recoveries, employees compensation gains made up 62 percent of all income growth, corporate profits just under 14 percent. But in this recovery, corporate profit growth accounts for 40 percent of all income growth, employees just under 39 percent. And one factor, in a slack labor market, the threat of outsourcing appears to be depressing wage growth.

LEE PRICE, ECONOMIC POLICY INSTITUTE: The phenomena of offshoring has had much less effect in terms of the actual jobs moved out of the country than the effect on the pay and work pace of people still in the country.

VILES: Flat wages also explain while worker anxiety remains high, even though unemployment by historical standards is not.

CHRIS OWENS, AFL-CIO: There is just massive anxiety on the part of workers and their families about what they view as the erosion of good jobs that pay well and provide decent benefits. And they're very worried and They're very angry about it.

VILES: The labor market is improving, but still soft. Even after the burst of hiring in March, the economy has still lost jobs over the course of this 29-month recovery.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

VILES: Back to the president and his argument today that higher productivity leads to higher earnings, that argument is holding up in this recovery. It's just that the higher earnings are being captured and kept by corporations and not workers -- Lou.

DOBBS: It's an amazing imbalance right now in this economy, in which the corporations, particularly the multinationals, have a huge, huge, advantage, without any countervailing force. Thank you very much, Peter Viles.

Well, the Bush administration says retraining is the answer to all of this, but for millions of Americans, it's not working. And neither are they. We'll have that report coming up.

In "Exporting America" tonight, "Harper"'s magazine publisher John MacArthur says NAFTA should be scrapped and free trade is a bad deal we can't afford. He is our guest.

And desperation leads to even more violence along American's broken border with Mexico. That special report still ahead.

Please stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: The campaign for the White House today centered on jobs. Senator Kerry visited a job center in the nations capitol, and talked to several people looking for work. On Wednesday, Senator Kerry will detail his plan to create jobs over four years.

`President Bush, meanwhile, proposed an overhaul of the governments jobs training program. That plan would double the number of Americans who receive federal training from 200,000 to 400,000. The president's plan comes as little as known is about the success rate of the government's current job training program.

Kitty Pilgrim has the report.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KITTY PILGRIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): About 35 percent of the funding in the current jobs training program is eaten up by paperwork, administrative costs. President Bush wants to cut administrative costs to 15 percent of funding.

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: What we need to do is make sure that people are judged, people are spending your money are judged on what we care about. Job statistics will report how many people they helped find work.

PILGRIM: The government spends some $4 billion on this type of job retraining already. This new proposal gains $300 million from making administration programs more efficient. It also adds another $250 million in new funding to community colleges, where most of the new job training takes place. Most statistics on retraining are almost a decade old, and point to very little success. Employment experts are not optimistic about current programs, either.

BILL CONERLY, NATL. CTR. FORM POLITICAL ANALYSIS: The money is wasted. It's a feel-good program and every politician likes to say we're going to put people into training and help them get better wages. The only problem is it really doesn't work.

PILGRIM: Some say retraining puts people at the bottom of the pay scale in a new industry.

JOHN CHALLENGER, CHALLENGER GRAY & CHRISTMAS: It can't find another job, hold your income, after taking three, six months, even a year's worth of classes, you're competing against kids coming into the market who have been taking classes for, say, four years.

PILGRIM: There were job vacancies, however, in some field such as healthcare and education, for example.

(END VIDEOTAPE) PILGRIM: And one of the measures proposed today would give the money directly to the people who qualify, and they could apply it to whichever training program they would choose -- Lou.

DOBBS: Kitty, thank you very much. My next guest says free trade is wrecking the middle class. He says the North American Free Trade Agreement was all about money and it should be scrap.

John MacArthur is author of the book, "The Selling of Free Trade: NAFTA, Washington and Subversion of American Democracy." MacAuthur, is also the president and publishers of "Harper's" magazine and joins us here tonight.

JOHN MACARTHUR, AUTHOR: I'm delighted to be here.

DOBBS: The idea that free trade is subverting American democracy is radical in the extreme in many quarters. As you know, it's not necessarily so here.

Why did you decide to focus on NAFTA?

MACARTHUR: I was interested in the per rho-gore debate, because I said something is fishing going on here, because Perot, he was caricature as a sort of strange and eccentric person, wasn't taken as seriously as he should have been, although he did get a lot of votes. When I got into the subject more deeply, I found out Al Gore was making up what he said on that famous Larry King debate and that he got away with murder. And the program that was sold as a free trade program, had nothing to do with free trade, it had to do with protecting American investments in Mexico in a cheap labor environment, with little or no environmental regulation.

DOBBS: You maintain in your book, and convincingly so, that NAFTA, as an example, is all about protecting U.S. investment and corporate financial interests, and effectively little more. The same with permanent or normal trade relations with China. And at the same time you say you're not sure, you suggest also that you're not sure that much can be done.

How much can be done?

MACARTHUR: Well, a lot could be done, actually. I said not much could be done under circumstances where the Democratic party refuses to do anything about it. The Democratic party, remember, is responsible and the Clinton administration are responsible or principally for NAFTA and PNTR. And it used to be thought of as the party of labor, the party that would help the working men and women in America. Now, if the Democratic party came to its senses and decided it was interested in taking care of working people, there's a lot that could be done. You could increase the incentives for companies to manufacture in the United States decrease the incentives, which you know all about, to manufacture overseas, and try to redress the imbalance between the wage rates. Because right now, it's a no- brainer for an American corporation to move it to Mexico and now shut it down in Mexico and move it to China, because at 30 cents an hour, you're not talking about comparative advantage, you're talking about what I call labor racketeering. It's labor price-fixing, essentially.

DOBBS: And not by labor.

MACARTHUR: And not by labor or a mafia union. It's between two governments, a corporation, and the local workers' committee of the Chinese Communist Party or the National Union of Mexico, which does not permit collective bargaining. You can't form an independent union in Mexico, still. If you even think about it in China, you're clapped in irons.

DOBBS: It seems to me in the media, particular in this country in the national media, are so culpable. Because we tend to report on China, Mexico, Singapore as if they are some part of monolith without unique identities, unique properties, societies or cultures or political systems. As you describe in your book, Mexico absolutely rank with corruption, China remains hardly a Democratic society, as the way the national media says it now, let's say it correctly, China is a communist nation, but you don't read that in the national media in most cases in that sense.

MACARTHUR: A communist nation with no workers' rights to speak of.

DOBBS: The fact is there has been this dissociation, which you also focus on, and that is fast-track authority, in which Congress effectively abdicated all of its responsibilities for trade, for foreign relations, to the administration, initially in the Clinton administration.

MACARTHUR: Right. And fast-track is unconstitutional on its face. The job of the Senate, as defined in the constitution, is to amend legislation. These trade deals are legislation. What they say with fast-track is you either vote yes or vote no on the whole thing, you can't amend it. So a Congressman is incapable after fast-track is invoked, of actually trying to protect the interests of his or her constituents.

DOBBS: Men and women watching this show at voters have to understand that many people in Washington consider their vote inconvenient to their interests, many people in the administration considers the votes of the Senate and Congress inconvenient to their interests, they've at least set that aside in the case of trade.

What can be done?

MACARTHUR: As I said, you can do something about cutting corporate tax rates, certainly, or for manufacturing in the United States. Giving direct incentives to small manufacturers, the way they do in other countries that will agree to employ workers in the United States. But also you have to get rid of this free-trade rhetoric and jargon, because it's kind of a religious devotion to the notion of free trade. First of all, these agreements have nothing to do with the original idea proposed by David Ricardo, and promoted by Richard Codben, the great British free trader. These are investor agreements as I said in the beginning. But until you can get past this utopian ideal of free trade, you can't have a sane discussion about it. The problem we have is if I'm a Congressman and sad I don't agree with your free-trade agreement, people say well, you're against making the world a better place because free trade is utopian.

DOBBS: You move into bipolar extremes. One is free trade that which doesn't exist to begin with. And the other as if you're not for free trade you are automaticly a protectionist, as if there's no range of policy option within it.

MACARTHUR: Or no politics. I say to people all the time that free trade is first cousin to Marxism, because Marx was greatly influenced by David Ricardo, and the devotion with which free traders promote their idea is almost Marxist in its intensity. The economists go crazy when I debate them on this.

(CROSSTALK)

DOBBS: Thank you very much. John MacArthur. The book is "The Selling of Free Trade, NAFTA, Washington, and the Subversion of American Democracy." I think we got it all in there. Good to have you here.

Still ahead tonight, a desperate struggle along this country's southern border, a broken border. American families forced to defend themselves against smugglers of drugs and illegal aliens.

And Exporting America. Tonight an exclusive look at just how many American companies are exporting jobs to cheap overseas and how some views of the practice are changing and rather rapidly. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: We've reported for more than a year here on the shipment of hundreds of thousands of American jobs to overseas, cheep labor markets, and its impact on our economy and society. Business technology website KnowledgeStorm has just completed one of the most comprehensive surveys ever conducted on outsourcing of jobs. Joining me now to talk about these findings, the CEO of KnowledgeStorm, Kelly Gay joining us from CNN's center in Atlanta. Good to have you here. What is the biggest surprise in your study, to you?

KELLY GAY, CHAIRMAN & CEO, KNOWLEDGESTORM: The biggest surprise, contrary to many other surveys that have been taking on this topic, since ours was so broad and large in size, what it pointed out is that outsourcing or offshoring is not a single trend, it's a series of many trends. Those trends seem very dependent upon company size, the industry you're in, and most importantly, your I.T. adoption profile, how quickly or slowly your company innovates in its use of technology.

DOBBS: And obviously with the I.T. profile, whether a corporation is within the I.T. industry itself or heavily reliant upon I.T. within its industry, it makes the offshoring of American jobs to cheap overseas labor markets that much easier, correct?

GAY: Yes, actually interestingly enough when you look at the industry component, I.T., information technology as an industry, is the second highest offshore user as it is right now from an industry standpoint with communications as the highest of offshore services right now. If you look at I.T. adoption profiles, who's an innovator versus who lags the industry in general, yes, you're right, Lou, the more use of technology that you have deployed as an industry and certainly communications and I.T. as an industry have deployed it a lot, the more likely it is for you to be using offshore services.

DOBBS: Now it certainly is no surprise, I think, for most people is the fact that 63 percent of the companies you surveyed are either neutral on or favor the idea of outsourcing. Did that in any way surprise you? Was that large?

GAY: Actually, surprisingly, there is a surprise to that, 63 percent of the almost 2,000 people surveyed are increasingly less open or neutral to offshoring in the future, with a 37 percent remainder who are increasingly more open. So that was a surprise in the data, that as time has gone on, through a series of impacts, you see people are actually increasingly less open to it.

DOBBS: And why is that?

Well, I think there are a number of reasons for it. First, there are very few companies who would like to be sitting on the Lou Dobbs show pointing out they have decided to offshore or use outsourcing, so right now it's not a very easy thing to defend first. Secondly, I think it's become very apparent there are both hidden costs and ulterior outcomes to outsourcing. The hidden costs are things like you have to change your processes, you have to add management, you have to be able to define processes in a way that it doesn't matter. There are 6,000 miles in between that's a hidden cost. In terms of the ultimate outcomes, if you have outsourced your customer service, the group of people who is dealing with your customers to India or wherever it may be, if they aren't representing you as a company in the way that you'd like, that doesn't bode well for you, and it will be a long time before you know it, because it's 6,000 miles away.

DOBBS: Our viewers on this show, Kelly, I can tell you the e- mails -- thousands and thousands of e-mails that we receive here, one of the principal complaints is on that very issue of customer service, and it -- I suppose if those companies saw what they were risking, at least in the tone of these e-mails from our viewers, they might be somewhat even more cautious. Kelly Gay, we thank you for being here to share your thoughts on the survey. We appreciate it very much. Kelly Gay, the CEO of KnowledgeStorm.

When we continue, some of your thoughts on the latest jobs report. Also in broken borders, smugglers bringing in illegal aliens and drugs are more violent than ever and some U.S. citizens are being forced to arm themselves.

U.S. border patrol agents rescue stranded Mexicans during a deadly flood along the border. Stay with us, we'll have that story next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) DOBBS: U.S. border patrol agents today saved the lives of several Mexican citizens trapped on their rooftops during a flash flood just accord the border in northern Mexico. Authorities say the Escondido River rose 25 feet in 15 minutes. 21 people were killed in the flooding, dozens more remain missing tonight.

In broken borders, the federal government has begun cracking down on the smuggling of illegal drugs and aliens along Arizona's border with Mexico. At the same time, desperate smugglers are becoming more violent, especially toward the residents of the area. Casey Wian reports from Douglas, Arizona.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Richard Kozak bought this 40-acre spread in Arizona to retire, but lately he's been busy trying to keep violent drug smugglers crossing the nearby Mexican border off of his property. Barricades didn't work, and two weeks ago, a smuggler's truck came too close.

RICHARD KOZAK, BORDER RESIDENT: He went down my driveway here about 200 yards, and stopped. He turned around and came back towards the house. When he did, I fired three times into the hood of the truck, but didn't disable it.

WIAN: The truck fled. A half hour later, the smugglers returned.

KOZAK: I think that they were trying to teach me a lesson about trying to stop them, and so they snuck up in back of the house, torched the trailer, and opened fire.

WIAN: A barrage of AK-47 and 9-millimeter bullets hit his house. Kozak says he returned fire, but too late to save his trailer, which burned to the ground.

Fifty miles northwest in Sierra Vista, near several alien smuggling trails, school children catch the bus, under the watch of sheriff department's volunteers. They've been patrolling bus stops since a group of illegal aliens carjacked a mother and daughter on their way to school two months ago.

LT. MARK DANNELS, COCHISE COUNTY SHERIFF'S DEPARTMENT: We're trying to keep -- let people know we're out there for them. The other part of that is, let the illegals, when they see the marked unit, the volunteer unit, that they will go the other way.

WIAN: Just driving down the street, it's common to encounter scenes like this, a suspected alien smuggler fleeing authorities in a stolen car. This one didn't get away.

(on camera): Contact with illegal alien trafficking is a fact of daily life for residents of Arizona border counties. This pursuit and bust happened just across the street from a residential neighborhood.

(voice-over): A growing number of residents are arming themselves and patrolling their neighborhoods. The local sheriff understands.

SHERIFF LARRY DEVER, COCHISE COUNTY, ARIZONA: When aliens cross that fence, more likely than not, they're in someone's backyard. And it may be a 2,000-acre backyard, or it may be a 200-square-foot backyard, but it's still my backyard. And you don't have a right to be there without my permission. There really is a cauldron here boiling.

WIAN: Dever welcomes the federal government's deployment of more manpower and technology on the Arizona border, though he calls its response to conditions here "painfully slow."

Casey Wian, CNN, Douglas, Arizona.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

DOBBS: Over the weekend, the U.S. Coast Guard said it stopped six boats, 345 illegal aliens aboard those six boats, trying to enter the United States. The action was taken with the help of Immigration and Customs Enforcement and the Dominican Republic's navy.

Turning now to Wall Street, where stock prices today climbed. The Dow up 88 points, the Nasdaq gaining nearly 22, the S&P up almost 9. Word tonight that the Bank of America-Fleet merger will cost thousands of jobs. Christine Romans is here with the story -- Christine.

CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNNfn CORRESPONDENT: Lou, 12,500 over the next couple of years. CEO Ken Lewis wants -- he wants to trim, trim $1.6 billion in costs, and that means slashing head count.

You know, Lou, Wall Street wants to have it both ways, it seems. It wants jobs growth; at the same time it applauds companies who fire American workers. Cigna, for example, recently slashed 3,000 jobs. Today it raised its earnings targets. Stock soared 10 percent. Last week, Gateway and Sun Microsystems said they would lay off thousands. It's that cost-cutting that will show another good quarter for corporate profits. First quarter profits forecast up 17 percent, potentially could be the best first quarter since 2000. But Lou, the CEOs aren't hiring. Rich Yamarone (ph) over at Argus Research says he talks to about 200 CEOs a quarter. The best, they'll admit, he says, is we'll be hiring down the road, in the second half, around the corner. And the conference board tonight, Lou, said CEO confidence right now is at a 20-year high.

DOBBS: Is that based on their own bonuses?

ROMANS: They are very confident right now, but they're not hiring. They're paid quite well, you're right.

DOBBS: Thank very much, Christine.

Well, many of you wrote in about Friday's report, the 308,000 new jobs were created in the month of March. Don Wilson of Las Vegas, Nevada -- "My stock market investments are very important to me. If companies outsource to make more profits, I make more money. If the companies all stay in the U.S. and lower their profits, doesn't that lower the value of everyone's 401(k)? Take a poll. Outsource or profit? I choose profit. I have a job. Everyone I know has a job. And I don't want to give up my profits so others can keep their job."

Anthony R. of Wayne, Pennsylvania: "Mine was one of the new jobs created. It took well over a year to find it. In the meantime, I've wiped out all my savings, maxed all my credit cards and have defaulted on some. I now earn a third of what I used to make. How thankful should I be?"

Jerry Olsen of Fortuna, California: "My question for those who are bragging about the increase in jobs is, what are these jobs? Are they minimum wage jobs or something a person could expect to use to support a family? Numbers do not buy bread, wages do."

Bill Poole, Chelmsford, Massachusetts: "If political jobs were subject to exportation, maybe Congress would be motivated to do something about the situation."

Jesse Clark of Valdosta, Georgia: "Anyone in their right mind would know that outsourcing jobs is bad. Corporate profits are up, executives are making large bonuses, so to hell with the average worker."

We love hearing your thoughts. E-mail us at loudobbs@cnn.com.

A reminder as well to check our Web site for the complete list of what is now more than 400 -- excuse me, more than 500 companies that we've confirmed to be exporting America. Cnn.com/lou.

And the mayor of Phoenix is urging residents to take a stand, or rather a seat, to fight crime in their community. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: And finally tonight, in Phoenix, Arizona, taking a seat on a bench is in fact a very positive example of corporate participation in the community, at least that's what the mayor of Phoenix is hoping. Mayor Phil Gordon gave 200 front-porch benches to Neighborhood Watch leaders throughout the city. The mayor hopes the benches will draw people out of their backyards and into their front yards, where they can keep an eye on their neighborhoods and communities. One west Phoenix area started a similar program back in 2001, and a dramatic decrease in crime rates resulted. Whoever thought riding the bench would be such a good idea.

That's our show for tonight. We thank you for being with us. Tomorrow, please join us. Democratic National Committee Chairman Terry McAuliffe joins us, as Senator John Kerry prepares to unveil his bold plans for the economy Wednesday. And economist David Kelly, well, he says we should embrace the outsourcing of American jobs. And he's our guest as well. Please be with us.

For all of us here, thanks for being with us tonight. Good night from New York. "ANDERSON COOPER 360" is next.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com

Aired April 5, 2004 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR: Tonight, chaos in Iraq, helicopter gunships firing in Baghdad. U.S. Marines have surrounded the city of Fallujah.

BRIG. GEN. MARK KIMMITT, U.S. DEPUTY CHIEF OF OPERATIONS: Individuals who create violence, incite violence, who execute violence against persons inside of Iraq will be hunted down and captured or killed.

DOBBS: Senator Joseph Biden, the ranking Democrat on the Foreign Relations Committee, is our guest tonight.

In "Broken Borders," Americans arm themselves to protect their families and homes from smugglers bringing drugs and illegal aliens across the border.

Also tonight, one of the most comprehensive surveys ever on the export of American jobs to cheap overseas markets.

The American economy is growing. Productivity is rising. Corporate profits are soaring, but wages for middle-class Americans are flat. We'll have a special report.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT for Monday, April 5. Here now for an hour of news, debate and opinion, Lou Dobbs.

DOBBS: Good evening.

Tonight, U.S. forces in Iraq are on the offensive. In Fallujah, more than 1,000 American Marines surrounded the city after the brutal killing and mutilation of four American contractors there last week. In Baghdad, troops used helicopter gunships against armed supporters of a radical Shiite cleric. And the coalition says authorities have issued an arrest warrant against that cleric, Muqtada al-Sadr.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DOBBS (voice-over): The coalition command has declared Al-Sadr an outlaw. Al-Sadr has retreated to his mosque, located in Kufa in central Iraq. He says he will not surrender.

In Baghdad, Al-Sadr's supporters clashed with U.S. troops again today, one day after Shiite gunmen kill eight American soldiers. During today's battles, U.S. Apache helicopters opened fire on Sadr's followers. It is unclear how many people were killed or wounded in the attack. The coalition maintains the June 30 deadline for the transfer of sovereignty to Iraqis stands.

DAN SENOR, COALITION PROVISIONAL AUTHORITY: Elections will determine who governs Iraq, not mob violence.

DOBBS: In Basra in Southern Iraq, about 1,000 Al-Sadr supporters took over the governor's mansion. British troops there are trying to negotiate a peaceful end to the occupation, but U.S. commanders in Baghdad are threatening a tough response if the violence continues.

KIMMITT: Individuals who create violence, who incite violence, who execute violence against persons inside of Iraq will be hunted down and captured or killed. It is that simple.

DOBBS: The coalition command is also taking a tough line with Saddam Hussein supporters in Fallujah, where four American contractors were ambushed, killed and mutilated last week. U.S. Marines and Iraqi troops have surrounded the city. Commanders say it's just the beginning of a major operation to reestablish control of Fallujah.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

DOBBS: President Bush today said the United States will not be deterred by the rising violence in Iraq. President Bush said the June 30 deadline for the transfer of power to the Iraqis remains firm.

Elaine Quijano reports from the White House -- Elaine.

ELAINE QUIJANO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hello to you, Lou.

Well, President Bush said despite the heightened violence in Iraq, he is sticking to that June 30 deadline for the transfer of power to the Iraqi people, the president making those comments today while on a stop to Charlotte, North Carolina, where he gave a speech at a community college on job training and the economy.

Now, after that speech, the president met with the family of one of the U.S. troops killed in Iraq. And he held an impromptu news conference afterward in which he told reporters that he said to the family the administration would stay the course.

Now, the president also said the closer it gets to that June 30 deadline the more likely the people will challenge the coalition's will and the will of the Iraqi people, but he emphasized pushing back that date was not an option.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The message to the Iraqi citizens is they don't have to fear that America will turn and run, and that's an important message for them to hear. If they think that we're not sincere about staying the course, many people will not continue to take a risk toward -- take the risk toward freedom and democracy. (END VIDEO CLIP)

QUIJANO: Now, the president's comments come at a time when his approval rating is down slightly, according to a new Pew Research Poll. When asked how the president was handling his job as president, about 43 percent said they approved, down slightly from late March, when that same number was around 47 percent.

Yet when asked whether the U.S. made the right decision by using military force in Iraq, about 57 percent of those polled said, yes, up two points from mid-March. Now, no doubt the Bush administration is looking very closely at the events in Iraq from a political perspective as well, very mindful of the images coming out of Iraq. At this point, though, the president is sticking to that deadline, remaining firm that June 30, that transfer of power will happen -- Lou.

DOBBS: Elaine, thank you -- Elaine Quijano from the White House.

Joining me now from Baghdad, Jane Arraf.

Jane, what is the security situation in Baghdad tonight?

JANE ARRAF, CNN BAGHDAD BUREAU CHIEF: Lou, it's relatively calm, although there has been some gunfire heard in Sadr City.

Now, Sadr City, of course, is that neighborhood where all the action took place on Sunday. And we're talking about the biggest engagement, the biggest clashes in the capital since the end of the war. The U.S. has made clear it is cracking down on this militia belonging to a radical Shia cleric. And not only that. As you know, it has laid down the gauntlet issuing a warrant for his arrest.

This arrest -- the warrant has been around for some time. The U.S. hasn't made it public. Now it says that it will try to go after him, a very tricky thing, given that he is in the holy city of Kufa, near Najaf, apparently in a mosque -- Lou.

DOBBS: Why can't the Iraqi security forces and U.S. troops maintain order?

ARRAF: Well, essentially because it is still in some respects a lawless place. Now, it's a lot less lawless than it used to be. And when you talk to military officials, they point out, as do ordinary Iraqis, that common crime really has decreased. And that was one of the big problems, but basically what we're seeing is perhaps a surge in the very dramatic attacks, the suicide bombs, the attacks such as yesterday, which as I said was unprecedented, really, has taken a lot of the focus.

And in terms of providing security, there just aren't enough of them. There are about half the number of Iraqi police that are needed, half the number of civil defense forces. In fact, they didn't even get involved in the clashes on Sunday. And the Iraqi police themselves, Lou, some of them melted away, leaving their police stations. It's a very new situation, and it's not intended that they would be up to speed right now -- Lou.

DOBBS: Jane, ordinary law-abiding Iraqis are the principal victims of all of this violence, whomever it's directed against. Why are those ordinary Iraqis tolerating this level of violence?

ARRAF: You know, a couple of reasons. I guess the most basic one is that if a neighbor of you or I were launching rocket-propelled grenades, I doubt that we would go out and try to stop them singlehandedly. And that's essentially what a lot of people are facing. They just do not feel safe speaking out against this or doing something about it, although U.S. forces say they are getting more Iraqi intelligence.

The other part is, and this can't be discounted, that a lot of Iraqis at this point are not in love with U.S. forces. Now, many of them would like them to stay, because they're afraid of what would happen when they leave, but they're rather passively agreeing to let them stay, rather than active doing something about improving the security situation. But essentially the bottom line, Lou, is people are scared.

DOBBS: Jane Arraf in Baghdad, thank you.

As the violence in Iraq escalates, the Pentagon is now considering whether to send in more U.S. troops. General John Abizaid, the head of Central Command, said he wants options for reinforcement in the next 48 hours.

Senior Pentagon correspondent Jamie McIntyre reports -- Jamie.

JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN MILITARY AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Well, Lou, the Pentagon insists it's just prudent military planning, but sources confirm to CNN that the violent demonstrations by Iraqi Shiites over the weekend has prompted General Abizaid to ask for options to be drawn up for reinforcements just in case.

U.S. commanders believe they currently have adequate forces on the ground and no request for additional troops has yet been made. The planning, Pentagon officials stress, is for a worst-case scenario in the unanticipated event that the violence -- quote -- "gets out of control." Because the U.S. is in the middle of a massive military rotation, it has a temporary uptick in the number of troops, up from about 120,000 earlier this year to more like 134,000.

And sources say the most likely scenario is to ship some of the troops around within the country, repositioning them to hot spots if that's what's needed. However, they are drawing up options to bring out additional troops if needed. And still this contingency planning, though, shows how concerned the Pentagon is with what's going on with the Shiite majority, which up until now had been pretty much cooperating with U.S. troops. They feel the situation in Fallujah is one they can handle pretty much with a brute force crackdown, but this situation they feel needs more finesse as they try to take out this Muslim cleric and about 3,000 members of his private army without inciting the Shiites in some sort of backlash -- Lou. DOBBS: Jamie, this uprising over the weekend, the most violent in recent memory, March the second most violent month in terms U.S. casualties since the war ended, major combat operations, why is there this continued avoidance of the issue of raising the number of American forces there to protect our people as well as the Iraqis?

MCINTYRE: Well, they continue to believe that more American forces can at times be counterproductive. Now, they realize that in this latest scenario, there may be a necessity, for instance, to be able to respond to police stations faster. There were four police stations taken over by anti-U.S. militias in this latest incident.

So they're saying they may need to move some forces around. But they continue to believe that the answer is to reduce the number of forces overall and try to keep them out of the crossfire, but they recognize they have to reestablish order in order to prevent things from spiraling out of control.

DOBBS: Jamie, thank you very much -- Jamie McIntyre, our senior Pentagon correspondent.

The two men who lead the Senate Foreign Relations Committee are now questioning whether Iraq will be ready for the June 30 handover of sovereignty.

Senator Joseph Biden says Iraq could fall into civil war. He joins us tonight from Wilmington, Delaware.

Senator, good to have you with us.

SEN. JOSEPH BIDEN (D), DELAWARE: Happy to be here, Lou.

DOBBS: Senator, is it your judgment in fact that we should delay the June 30 handover?

BIDEN: Well, I don't notice the answer to that, because I don't know what the administration's plan is. The administration has not laid out to whom we're going to turn over sovereignty, who's going to be in charge of negotiating the differences among the ethnic contingencies once we do turn over authority, whether it is going to be a new super embassy, whether or not we're going to have the international community participating in this at all.

So the problem I have is there's no plan, but we have raised expectations, Lou, that we are going to turn over sovereignty, and if we do not turn it over on June the 30th, then I think you're going to give credence to the Sadrs of the world in Iraq who say, look, we acted up. We did terrible things and they backed down. They walked away.

And so we're in a dilemma. We need a plan. We need a plan. We don't have one yet.

DOBBS: Senator, without putting too fine a point on it, you, Senator Lugar, lead the Senate Foreign Relations Committee. It would seem that your committee would be intricately involved in all planning, all strategy, having to do with U.S. policy. Are you really suggesting that this administration is not including your committee in the planning, in the strategy for Iraq?

BIDEN: Yes.

DOBBS: Why is that being tolerated?

BIDEN: Quite frankly, when you're in the minority, you don't have much control.

I think we should be -- and I think Senator Lugar is going to start to hold hearings again. I think we need -- we should be holding hearings right now examining exactly what the plan is, demanding to know whether or not there is going to be a new U.N. resolution, demanding whether or not we are going to have the equivalent of a high commissioner, demanding to know who's going to call the shots.

For example, what happens when Chalabi makes a deal with Sistani, which I do not put beyond him, to alter the constitution as it has been temporarily laid out and somehow eviscerate the rights of women? Who's going to demarche them and say, guys, go back to the tent and figure out, this is not acceptable, like we did in Afghanistan? Who is going to do that, an American ambassador? Or is that going to be the international community headed up by a guy name Brahimi or someone like that who brings along the force of the entire world with him, not the physical force?

We provide that, but brings along the moral and political force for the rest of the world. One of the reasons this thing blew up when it did is that, in Fallujah, is -- and excuse me, with Sadr, is that we shut down his newspaper. That was the right thing to do, probably, and arrested his No. 2. But what that did was, it was a naked, clear act on the part of the American. And the Americans did it, so the Americans are held responsible.

We have to get some distance here in terms of who's going to be making these tough decisions.

DOBBS: And to be clear, Senator, you're not suggesting that in any way the United States withdraw its force from Iraq.

BIDEN: No, absolutely not. We cannot withdraw.

Look, the president says, if we don't fight them in Baghdad, we're going to have to fight them in Boston. I don't buy that for a second. The reason we can't withdraw is because, if we leave, there would likely be a civil war. If there's a civil war, you'll see the Iranians and the Turks involved in Iran. You will see chaos ensue in the Middle East.

I predict you will see the Jordanian government fall. You'll probably see the Saudi government fall. I think there will be chaos in the region for the better part of a generation. It's geopolitical. We'll embolden Iran. That's why we cannot fail. And Europe knows that, Lou. They're ready to come in. They're just not ready to come in under the tutelage and sponsorship of an American ambassador, an American person calling all the shots, because they don't think we've handled it very well.

DOBBS: Senator Joseph Biden, thanks for being here.

BIDEN: Thank you for having me.

DOBBS: More arrests today in the global war against radical Islamist terror. Police in Spain arrested two terrorist suspects. Those arrests came after five radical Islamists blew themselves up Saturday during a police siege of an apartment building in Madrid. Spanish police are hunting for more terrorists in connection with the bombings of commuter trains in Madrid last month; 191 people killed in those attacks, almost 2,000 wounded.

France has also been rounding up radical Islamists. Police there today arrested 13 people. They're suspected of involvement in a series of suicide bomb attacks in Morocco last year.

Coming up here, should we put more troops in Iraq? Should we disarm all of Iraq? General David Grange is our guest.

And Americans living along the Mexican border are being forced to take up arms to defend their homes and families from smugglers. We'll have a special report.

Also, Americans are working harder than ever, but receiving less for their rising product activity. It's simply another tightening on this country's middle class. Our special report is next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: U.S. troops face a huge challenge, trying to disarm supporters of the radical cleric Muqtada Al-Sadr. Yesterday, Al-Sadr mobilized thousands of his armed militia in towns and cities all across Iraq.

Joining me now, CNN military analyst General David Grange.

General, the first question has to be, with 13 Americans dead since Saturday, why are we failing to provide security for our own people as well as for Iraqis who want peace?

RETIRED BRIG. GEN. DAVID GRANGE, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Well, security is tough. They've got to keep the pressure on, especially right now. It's going to call more casualties as you put the pressure on, but it has to be done. You cannot show that you're fading out, you're withdrawing at all from this situation, even though it's tough, maybe tougher than it's been in months.

But they have to be strong about it. There will be casualties, but in the long run, it will work out.

DOBBS: General, in the long run, it will work out. I guess you can put me down amongst those who are starting to be very suspicious of the long run.

The fact is that we've heard a number of responses from the Pentagon, from CENTCOM, for our commanders in Iraq now for more than a year. And our men and woman in uniform in Iraq, General, do they not deserve some straightforward answers? For example, today we heard from CENTCOM suggesting that we will strike at a time and place of our choosing. This is rhetoric we've heard time and time again, yet the security situation in Iraq remains serious and a rising level of violence.

GRANGE: It is, and -- but I do support the words at the time and place of our choosing, because actually it should have been done a little bit earlier, but that wasn't the time that was picked. However, it's going to start. The area is cordoned off. And I think we're going to see some pretty tough action here tonight, or if not, early tomorrow.

DOBBS: General Abizaid today saying that he had asked his commanders, the head of CENTCOM, for options on reinforcements for Iraq. This debate -- and you, General, among the foremost of those suggesting that we needed more forces in the right order in Iraq.

General Abizaid had said that he would wait until his commanders in the field ask him for reinforcements or more troops before moving ahead. Does this represent, in your judgment, a change in his policy and his leadership and the situation?

GRANGE: Well, there's plans out there. He may be asking for some updates in particular areas.

But, see, I think in this situation, you have to be able to turn the thermostat up and down rapidly. If nothing else, I think it's prudent to deploy elements called emergency deployment exercises, if nothing else, to areas of Iraq that people see visually, that images are captured, with the news media, that forces are put in quickly, rapidly to crush anything that starts up, then move them right out again.

You can leave them there for two months, two weeks, whatever. They can train and then move them out. But you have to be able to show that you can do this immediately and surge when issues start to get out of hand a little bit, and then turn it back down again. But you need that flexibility.

DOBBS: The cleric, Muqtada Al-Sadr, his militia, thousands upon thousands of Shia militia rising up, the question has to be put forward straightforwardly, directly. Why in the world does he have a militia? Why is a militia tolerated in any part of Iraq with U.S. forces in charge in Iraq?

GRANGE: I think the militia thing got out of hand early on. That could have been nipped in the bud early, but it was not. And so these militias were established.

And then there's concern if you go after the militia, you'll instigate a civil war. But they need to be arrested. I'm glad to see that an Iraqi judge issued the warrant. It's tough to go in there and fight 3,000 people. Is that the way to do it? Don't know. Maybe the best thing to do is to isolate him, keep him from controlling people and just show you're not going to put up with it and, when you get the right situation, grab him or kill him. It has to be done.

I think closing down the newspaper was a mistake. Physically, there's indirect means that we have in information warfare to discredit that newspaper without physically locking it down and letting them use that for disinformation. So that was a couple mistakes made. But they have to go after this guy now. They have to isolate him, discredit him with other clerics that support the transition to democratic governance.

DOBBS: General, do you believe that this is a job awaiting American forces, the disarming of Iraqis?

GRANGE: You have to disarm the population if you're going to establish rule of law for the long term. Millions of weapons, thousands of tons of equipment has been captured and destroyed, but there's much more out there. And just like after Germany in World War II, every weapon was confiscated and destroyed. There can be no exceptions.

The only people that need weaponry in this case is the police, civil defense and the Iraqi army.

DOBBS: Why has that not been obvious to the CPA, the U.S. command in Iraq?

GRANGE: Well, I think it may be obvious. It just takes time to find the stuff. There's cache sites all over this country, but the pressure really has to be put on to get that wrapped up now.

DOBBS: General David Grange, thank you.

GRANGE: My pleasure.

DOBBS: Still ahead here, big business benefits. Employees are suffering. The middle class is being squeezed in this country. Workers are doing more for their companies and receiving less in return. Is the system working?

And President Bush plans to overhaul the country's federal job training program as Senator Kerry meets with some of the nation's unemployed. We'll take a critical look at some of the president's proposals when we continue.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: Tonight, a new study highlights what we've been reporting here for weeks, the squeeze on this country's middle class. The study finds that American workers are more productive than ever. There is a problem, however. They're not receiving their fair share of the rewards.

Peter Viles reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

PETER VILES, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Campaigning in North Carolina, the president says what seems obvious: A more productive worker makes more money. The trouble is, it's not working out that way. Productivity is up. Corporate profits are up, but wages are flat. A new study from Northeastern University showed median weekly earnings in real dollars were flat from 2001 to 2003.

PAUL HARRINGTON, NORTHEASTERN UNIVERSITY: Unless we get worker compensation to rise, it's very hard for those families to really participate in what should be a generalized prosperity, but seems to be concentrated right now in the corporate sector.

VILES: Never before have American corporations earned so much and employees so little during a recovery. In the four previous economic recoveries, employees compensation gains made up 62 percent of all income growth, corporate profits just under 14 percent. But in this recovery, corporate profit growth accounts for 40 percent of all income growth, employees just under 39 percent. And one factor, in a slack labor market, the threat of outsourcing appears to be depressing wage growth.

LEE PRICE, ECONOMIC POLICY INSTITUTE: The phenomena of offshoring has had much less effect in terms of the actual jobs moved out of the country than the effect on the pay and work pace of people still in the country.

VILES: Flat wages also explain while worker anxiety remains high, even though unemployment by historical standards is not.

CHRIS OWENS, AFL-CIO: There is just massive anxiety on the part of workers and their families about what they view as the erosion of good jobs that pay well and provide decent benefits. And they're very worried and They're very angry about it.

VILES: The labor market is improving, but still soft. Even after the burst of hiring in March, the economy has still lost jobs over the course of this 29-month recovery.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

VILES: Back to the president and his argument today that higher productivity leads to higher earnings, that argument is holding up in this recovery. It's just that the higher earnings are being captured and kept by corporations and not workers -- Lou.

DOBBS: It's an amazing imbalance right now in this economy, in which the corporations, particularly the multinationals, have a huge, huge, advantage, without any countervailing force. Thank you very much, Peter Viles.

Well, the Bush administration says retraining is the answer to all of this, but for millions of Americans, it's not working. And neither are they. We'll have that report coming up.

In "Exporting America" tonight, "Harper"'s magazine publisher John MacArthur says NAFTA should be scrapped and free trade is a bad deal we can't afford. He is our guest.

And desperation leads to even more violence along American's broken border with Mexico. That special report still ahead.

Please stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: The campaign for the White House today centered on jobs. Senator Kerry visited a job center in the nations capitol, and talked to several people looking for work. On Wednesday, Senator Kerry will detail his plan to create jobs over four years.

`President Bush, meanwhile, proposed an overhaul of the governments jobs training program. That plan would double the number of Americans who receive federal training from 200,000 to 400,000. The president's plan comes as little as known is about the success rate of the government's current job training program.

Kitty Pilgrim has the report.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KITTY PILGRIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): About 35 percent of the funding in the current jobs training program is eaten up by paperwork, administrative costs. President Bush wants to cut administrative costs to 15 percent of funding.

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: What we need to do is make sure that people are judged, people are spending your money are judged on what we care about. Job statistics will report how many people they helped find work.

PILGRIM: The government spends some $4 billion on this type of job retraining already. This new proposal gains $300 million from making administration programs more efficient. It also adds another $250 million in new funding to community colleges, where most of the new job training takes place. Most statistics on retraining are almost a decade old, and point to very little success. Employment experts are not optimistic about current programs, either.

BILL CONERLY, NATL. CTR. FORM POLITICAL ANALYSIS: The money is wasted. It's a feel-good program and every politician likes to say we're going to put people into training and help them get better wages. The only problem is it really doesn't work.

PILGRIM: Some say retraining puts people at the bottom of the pay scale in a new industry.

JOHN CHALLENGER, CHALLENGER GRAY & CHRISTMAS: It can't find another job, hold your income, after taking three, six months, even a year's worth of classes, you're competing against kids coming into the market who have been taking classes for, say, four years.

PILGRIM: There were job vacancies, however, in some field such as healthcare and education, for example.

(END VIDEOTAPE) PILGRIM: And one of the measures proposed today would give the money directly to the people who qualify, and they could apply it to whichever training program they would choose -- Lou.

DOBBS: Kitty, thank you very much. My next guest says free trade is wrecking the middle class. He says the North American Free Trade Agreement was all about money and it should be scrap.

John MacArthur is author of the book, "The Selling of Free Trade: NAFTA, Washington and Subversion of American Democracy." MacAuthur, is also the president and publishers of "Harper's" magazine and joins us here tonight.

JOHN MACARTHUR, AUTHOR: I'm delighted to be here.

DOBBS: The idea that free trade is subverting American democracy is radical in the extreme in many quarters. As you know, it's not necessarily so here.

Why did you decide to focus on NAFTA?

MACARTHUR: I was interested in the per rho-gore debate, because I said something is fishing going on here, because Perot, he was caricature as a sort of strange and eccentric person, wasn't taken as seriously as he should have been, although he did get a lot of votes. When I got into the subject more deeply, I found out Al Gore was making up what he said on that famous Larry King debate and that he got away with murder. And the program that was sold as a free trade program, had nothing to do with free trade, it had to do with protecting American investments in Mexico in a cheap labor environment, with little or no environmental regulation.

DOBBS: You maintain in your book, and convincingly so, that NAFTA, as an example, is all about protecting U.S. investment and corporate financial interests, and effectively little more. The same with permanent or normal trade relations with China. And at the same time you say you're not sure, you suggest also that you're not sure that much can be done.

How much can be done?

MACARTHUR: Well, a lot could be done, actually. I said not much could be done under circumstances where the Democratic party refuses to do anything about it. The Democratic party, remember, is responsible and the Clinton administration are responsible or principally for NAFTA and PNTR. And it used to be thought of as the party of labor, the party that would help the working men and women in America. Now, if the Democratic party came to its senses and decided it was interested in taking care of working people, there's a lot that could be done. You could increase the incentives for companies to manufacture in the United States decrease the incentives, which you know all about, to manufacture overseas, and try to redress the imbalance between the wage rates. Because right now, it's a no- brainer for an American corporation to move it to Mexico and now shut it down in Mexico and move it to China, because at 30 cents an hour, you're not talking about comparative advantage, you're talking about what I call labor racketeering. It's labor price-fixing, essentially.

DOBBS: And not by labor.

MACARTHUR: And not by labor or a mafia union. It's between two governments, a corporation, and the local workers' committee of the Chinese Communist Party or the National Union of Mexico, which does not permit collective bargaining. You can't form an independent union in Mexico, still. If you even think about it in China, you're clapped in irons.

DOBBS: It seems to me in the media, particular in this country in the national media, are so culpable. Because we tend to report on China, Mexico, Singapore as if they are some part of monolith without unique identities, unique properties, societies or cultures or political systems. As you describe in your book, Mexico absolutely rank with corruption, China remains hardly a Democratic society, as the way the national media says it now, let's say it correctly, China is a communist nation, but you don't read that in the national media in most cases in that sense.

MACARTHUR: A communist nation with no workers' rights to speak of.

DOBBS: The fact is there has been this dissociation, which you also focus on, and that is fast-track authority, in which Congress effectively abdicated all of its responsibilities for trade, for foreign relations, to the administration, initially in the Clinton administration.

MACARTHUR: Right. And fast-track is unconstitutional on its face. The job of the Senate, as defined in the constitution, is to amend legislation. These trade deals are legislation. What they say with fast-track is you either vote yes or vote no on the whole thing, you can't amend it. So a Congressman is incapable after fast-track is invoked, of actually trying to protect the interests of his or her constituents.

DOBBS: Men and women watching this show at voters have to understand that many people in Washington consider their vote inconvenient to their interests, many people in the administration considers the votes of the Senate and Congress inconvenient to their interests, they've at least set that aside in the case of trade.

What can be done?

MACARTHUR: As I said, you can do something about cutting corporate tax rates, certainly, or for manufacturing in the United States. Giving direct incentives to small manufacturers, the way they do in other countries that will agree to employ workers in the United States. But also you have to get rid of this free-trade rhetoric and jargon, because it's kind of a religious devotion to the notion of free trade. First of all, these agreements have nothing to do with the original idea proposed by David Ricardo, and promoted by Richard Codben, the great British free trader. These are investor agreements as I said in the beginning. But until you can get past this utopian ideal of free trade, you can't have a sane discussion about it. The problem we have is if I'm a Congressman and sad I don't agree with your free-trade agreement, people say well, you're against making the world a better place because free trade is utopian.

DOBBS: You move into bipolar extremes. One is free trade that which doesn't exist to begin with. And the other as if you're not for free trade you are automaticly a protectionist, as if there's no range of policy option within it.

MACARTHUR: Or no politics. I say to people all the time that free trade is first cousin to Marxism, because Marx was greatly influenced by David Ricardo, and the devotion with which free traders promote their idea is almost Marxist in its intensity. The economists go crazy when I debate them on this.

(CROSSTALK)

DOBBS: Thank you very much. John MacArthur. The book is "The Selling of Free Trade, NAFTA, Washington, and the Subversion of American Democracy." I think we got it all in there. Good to have you here.

Still ahead tonight, a desperate struggle along this country's southern border, a broken border. American families forced to defend themselves against smugglers of drugs and illegal aliens.

And Exporting America. Tonight an exclusive look at just how many American companies are exporting jobs to cheap overseas and how some views of the practice are changing and rather rapidly. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: We've reported for more than a year here on the shipment of hundreds of thousands of American jobs to overseas, cheep labor markets, and its impact on our economy and society. Business technology website KnowledgeStorm has just completed one of the most comprehensive surveys ever conducted on outsourcing of jobs. Joining me now to talk about these findings, the CEO of KnowledgeStorm, Kelly Gay joining us from CNN's center in Atlanta. Good to have you here. What is the biggest surprise in your study, to you?

KELLY GAY, CHAIRMAN & CEO, KNOWLEDGESTORM: The biggest surprise, contrary to many other surveys that have been taking on this topic, since ours was so broad and large in size, what it pointed out is that outsourcing or offshoring is not a single trend, it's a series of many trends. Those trends seem very dependent upon company size, the industry you're in, and most importantly, your I.T. adoption profile, how quickly or slowly your company innovates in its use of technology.

DOBBS: And obviously with the I.T. profile, whether a corporation is within the I.T. industry itself or heavily reliant upon I.T. within its industry, it makes the offshoring of American jobs to cheap overseas labor markets that much easier, correct?

GAY: Yes, actually interestingly enough when you look at the industry component, I.T., information technology as an industry, is the second highest offshore user as it is right now from an industry standpoint with communications as the highest of offshore services right now. If you look at I.T. adoption profiles, who's an innovator versus who lags the industry in general, yes, you're right, Lou, the more use of technology that you have deployed as an industry and certainly communications and I.T. as an industry have deployed it a lot, the more likely it is for you to be using offshore services.

DOBBS: Now it certainly is no surprise, I think, for most people is the fact that 63 percent of the companies you surveyed are either neutral on or favor the idea of outsourcing. Did that in any way surprise you? Was that large?

GAY: Actually, surprisingly, there is a surprise to that, 63 percent of the almost 2,000 people surveyed are increasingly less open or neutral to offshoring in the future, with a 37 percent remainder who are increasingly more open. So that was a surprise in the data, that as time has gone on, through a series of impacts, you see people are actually increasingly less open to it.

DOBBS: And why is that?

Well, I think there are a number of reasons for it. First, there are very few companies who would like to be sitting on the Lou Dobbs show pointing out they have decided to offshore or use outsourcing, so right now it's not a very easy thing to defend first. Secondly, I think it's become very apparent there are both hidden costs and ulterior outcomes to outsourcing. The hidden costs are things like you have to change your processes, you have to add management, you have to be able to define processes in a way that it doesn't matter. There are 6,000 miles in between that's a hidden cost. In terms of the ultimate outcomes, if you have outsourced your customer service, the group of people who is dealing with your customers to India or wherever it may be, if they aren't representing you as a company in the way that you'd like, that doesn't bode well for you, and it will be a long time before you know it, because it's 6,000 miles away.

DOBBS: Our viewers on this show, Kelly, I can tell you the e- mails -- thousands and thousands of e-mails that we receive here, one of the principal complaints is on that very issue of customer service, and it -- I suppose if those companies saw what they were risking, at least in the tone of these e-mails from our viewers, they might be somewhat even more cautious. Kelly Gay, we thank you for being here to share your thoughts on the survey. We appreciate it very much. Kelly Gay, the CEO of KnowledgeStorm.

When we continue, some of your thoughts on the latest jobs report. Also in broken borders, smugglers bringing in illegal aliens and drugs are more violent than ever and some U.S. citizens are being forced to arm themselves.

U.S. border patrol agents rescue stranded Mexicans during a deadly flood along the border. Stay with us, we'll have that story next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) DOBBS: U.S. border patrol agents today saved the lives of several Mexican citizens trapped on their rooftops during a flash flood just accord the border in northern Mexico. Authorities say the Escondido River rose 25 feet in 15 minutes. 21 people were killed in the flooding, dozens more remain missing tonight.

In broken borders, the federal government has begun cracking down on the smuggling of illegal drugs and aliens along Arizona's border with Mexico. At the same time, desperate smugglers are becoming more violent, especially toward the residents of the area. Casey Wian reports from Douglas, Arizona.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Richard Kozak bought this 40-acre spread in Arizona to retire, but lately he's been busy trying to keep violent drug smugglers crossing the nearby Mexican border off of his property. Barricades didn't work, and two weeks ago, a smuggler's truck came too close.

RICHARD KOZAK, BORDER RESIDENT: He went down my driveway here about 200 yards, and stopped. He turned around and came back towards the house. When he did, I fired three times into the hood of the truck, but didn't disable it.

WIAN: The truck fled. A half hour later, the smugglers returned.

KOZAK: I think that they were trying to teach me a lesson about trying to stop them, and so they snuck up in back of the house, torched the trailer, and opened fire.

WIAN: A barrage of AK-47 and 9-millimeter bullets hit his house. Kozak says he returned fire, but too late to save his trailer, which burned to the ground.

Fifty miles northwest in Sierra Vista, near several alien smuggling trails, school children catch the bus, under the watch of sheriff department's volunteers. They've been patrolling bus stops since a group of illegal aliens carjacked a mother and daughter on their way to school two months ago.

LT. MARK DANNELS, COCHISE COUNTY SHERIFF'S DEPARTMENT: We're trying to keep -- let people know we're out there for them. The other part of that is, let the illegals, when they see the marked unit, the volunteer unit, that they will go the other way.

WIAN: Just driving down the street, it's common to encounter scenes like this, a suspected alien smuggler fleeing authorities in a stolen car. This one didn't get away.

(on camera): Contact with illegal alien trafficking is a fact of daily life for residents of Arizona border counties. This pursuit and bust happened just across the street from a residential neighborhood.

(voice-over): A growing number of residents are arming themselves and patrolling their neighborhoods. The local sheriff understands.

SHERIFF LARRY DEVER, COCHISE COUNTY, ARIZONA: When aliens cross that fence, more likely than not, they're in someone's backyard. And it may be a 2,000-acre backyard, or it may be a 200-square-foot backyard, but it's still my backyard. And you don't have a right to be there without my permission. There really is a cauldron here boiling.

WIAN: Dever welcomes the federal government's deployment of more manpower and technology on the Arizona border, though he calls its response to conditions here "painfully slow."

Casey Wian, CNN, Douglas, Arizona.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

DOBBS: Over the weekend, the U.S. Coast Guard said it stopped six boats, 345 illegal aliens aboard those six boats, trying to enter the United States. The action was taken with the help of Immigration and Customs Enforcement and the Dominican Republic's navy.

Turning now to Wall Street, where stock prices today climbed. The Dow up 88 points, the Nasdaq gaining nearly 22, the S&P up almost 9. Word tonight that the Bank of America-Fleet merger will cost thousands of jobs. Christine Romans is here with the story -- Christine.

CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNNfn CORRESPONDENT: Lou, 12,500 over the next couple of years. CEO Ken Lewis wants -- he wants to trim, trim $1.6 billion in costs, and that means slashing head count.

You know, Lou, Wall Street wants to have it both ways, it seems. It wants jobs growth; at the same time it applauds companies who fire American workers. Cigna, for example, recently slashed 3,000 jobs. Today it raised its earnings targets. Stock soared 10 percent. Last week, Gateway and Sun Microsystems said they would lay off thousands. It's that cost-cutting that will show another good quarter for corporate profits. First quarter profits forecast up 17 percent, potentially could be the best first quarter since 2000. But Lou, the CEOs aren't hiring. Rich Yamarone (ph) over at Argus Research says he talks to about 200 CEOs a quarter. The best, they'll admit, he says, is we'll be hiring down the road, in the second half, around the corner. And the conference board tonight, Lou, said CEO confidence right now is at a 20-year high.

DOBBS: Is that based on their own bonuses?

ROMANS: They are very confident right now, but they're not hiring. They're paid quite well, you're right.

DOBBS: Thank very much, Christine.

Well, many of you wrote in about Friday's report, the 308,000 new jobs were created in the month of March. Don Wilson of Las Vegas, Nevada -- "My stock market investments are very important to me. If companies outsource to make more profits, I make more money. If the companies all stay in the U.S. and lower their profits, doesn't that lower the value of everyone's 401(k)? Take a poll. Outsource or profit? I choose profit. I have a job. Everyone I know has a job. And I don't want to give up my profits so others can keep their job."

Anthony R. of Wayne, Pennsylvania: "Mine was one of the new jobs created. It took well over a year to find it. In the meantime, I've wiped out all my savings, maxed all my credit cards and have defaulted on some. I now earn a third of what I used to make. How thankful should I be?"

Jerry Olsen of Fortuna, California: "My question for those who are bragging about the increase in jobs is, what are these jobs? Are they minimum wage jobs or something a person could expect to use to support a family? Numbers do not buy bread, wages do."

Bill Poole, Chelmsford, Massachusetts: "If political jobs were subject to exportation, maybe Congress would be motivated to do something about the situation."

Jesse Clark of Valdosta, Georgia: "Anyone in their right mind would know that outsourcing jobs is bad. Corporate profits are up, executives are making large bonuses, so to hell with the average worker."

We love hearing your thoughts. E-mail us at loudobbs@cnn.com.

A reminder as well to check our Web site for the complete list of what is now more than 400 -- excuse me, more than 500 companies that we've confirmed to be exporting America. Cnn.com/lou.

And the mayor of Phoenix is urging residents to take a stand, or rather a seat, to fight crime in their community. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: And finally tonight, in Phoenix, Arizona, taking a seat on a bench is in fact a very positive example of corporate participation in the community, at least that's what the mayor of Phoenix is hoping. Mayor Phil Gordon gave 200 front-porch benches to Neighborhood Watch leaders throughout the city. The mayor hopes the benches will draw people out of their backyards and into their front yards, where they can keep an eye on their neighborhoods and communities. One west Phoenix area started a similar program back in 2001, and a dramatic decrease in crime rates resulted. Whoever thought riding the bench would be such a good idea.

That's our show for tonight. We thank you for being with us. Tomorrow, please join us. Democratic National Committee Chairman Terry McAuliffe joins us, as Senator John Kerry prepares to unveil his bold plans for the economy Wednesday. And economist David Kelly, well, he says we should embrace the outsourcing of American jobs. And he's our guest as well. Please be with us.

For all of us here, thanks for being with us tonight. Good night from New York. "ANDERSON COOPER 360" is next.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com