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Lou Dobbs Tonight

Rumsfeld Promises Punishment for Abusive MPs; Bush Campaigns in Ohio; Fires Rage in Southern California

Aired May 04, 2004 - 18:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LOU DOBBS, HOST (voice-over): Tonight, the prisoner abuse scandal in Iraq is widening, and senators and congressmen are demanding answers.

SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R), ARIZONA: Congress should have been notified of this situation a long time ago.

DOBBS: Tonight, I'll talk with former Ambassador Joe Wilson about what Wilson claims are the lies of the Bush administration, the leak of his wife's CIA identity and Iraq.

JOE WILSON, FORMER AMBASSADOR: We are on the even of a strategic catastrophe.

DOBBS: Congressional Democrats have launched a radical plan for immigration reform, a plan that would give millions of illegal aliens the chance to stay in this country legally.

My guest, one of the plan's sponsors, Congressman Luis Gutierrez.

Mission to Mars. Tough questions for NASA on its ambitious program for space exploration in the next half century. Tonight, astrophysicist Charles Liu is my guest.

And thousands of people flee their homes in southern California as wildfires sweep through dry brush lands.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT for Tuesday, May 04. Here now for an hour of new, debate and opinion, Lou Dobbs.

DOBBS: Good evening. Totally unacceptable and un-American. Those were the words Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld used today to condemn the abuse of Iraqi prisoners by Iraqi soldiers.

Secretary Rumsfeld said the soldiers responsible for the abuse let down their country, and he said they will be brought to justice.

Senior Pentagon correspondent Jamie McIntyre reports -- Jamie.

JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, those pictures today put Defense Secretary Rumsfeld in the uncomfortable position of having to draw a distinction of the actions of the U.S. military and the torture and mass murder of the regime of Saddam Hussein.

Defense Secretary Rumsfeld, in denouncing the actions of the soldiers seen in the photographs said, quote, "This is an exception."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: Let there be no doubt that this matter will be pursued properly under the uniform code of military justice.

The actions of the soldiers in those photographs are totally unacceptable and un-American. Any who engaged in such action let down their comrades who serve honorably each day, and they let down their country.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MCINTYRE: With some in Congress calling for hearings, the Army dispatched its No. 2 general, the vice chief of staff, up to the Hill to reassure members of Congress that the Army could investigate itself.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEN. GEORGE CASEY, ARMY VICE CHIEF OF STAFF: What you see on those pictures is not indicative of our training or of our values. It is a complete breakdown in discipline.

We are fully committed to getting to the bottom of this and holding accountable those who we find guilty through the judicial process.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MCINTYRE: So far, a dozen people have been reprimanded or face criminal charges, but even with the investigation still under way, the Army is saying this is an isolated case.

Still, they said there have been 25 prisoners who have died while in U.S. custody in Iraq or Afghanistan. In 12 of the deaths, it was said to be from natural causes. Three were ruled to be homicides, including one at the Abu Ghraib, which was ruled justifiably homicide when a prisoner tried to escape. Ten cases still under investigation.

Rumsfeld today acknowledged that the revelations had undercut the United States and the war of ideas with the Arab world. But when asked if he would apologized, he stopped short, simply saying there might be some things that the U.S. could do that would be helpful in making the case that this was an exception, not the rule -- Lou.

DOBBS: Why would there be any resistance on the part of the secretary of defense, Jamie, to apologizing to Iraqis, to the 130,000 men and women serving in Iraq for these instances of abuse of Iraqi prisoners?

MCINTYRE: It was interesting. In watching him, I wasn't sure. I think he might have been caught off guard by the question.

It would seem that this might be a case in which an apology would be in order. But perhaps the secretary didn't want to deliver one off the cuff at a Pentagon briefing when he hadn't really thought about it. This might not have been, he thought, the best forum for that.

DOBBS: One of the questions of the many that have been sent in to us by our viewers here, Jamie, is why the focus is entirely upon the soldiers of the 800th Military Police and not on officers in the chain of command who are responsible for the conduct of those troops?

Is the focus of these investigations, at least five of them, focusing on the chain of command as well, including the officers responsible for these people?

MCINTYRE: Well, I don't think it's at all clear. The investigations we know are continuing. They're looking, in particular, at some of the military intelligence officers who ran that particular cell block. We also know that some people have been relieved of responsibilities, some higher-ranking officers.

But today, Senator John Warner, chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee, said he'd been told in the briefing that one of the commanders had been relieved of command, taken off a promotion list but was still serving honorably in the U.S. military. And he said he wasn't sure he was comfortable with that.

I think those are the kinds of questions that Congress would like some answers to.

DOBBS: When you hear from distinguished senators like Senator McCain and Senator Warner who are, obviously, outright furious about what is going on here, it suggests we're going to hear a lot more from Capitol Hill on this issue.

Jamie, the Pentagon quickly today decided to maintain the number of troops in Iraq at about 140,000 troops through the end of next year. How is the Pentagon going to manage that with so many troops already committed to both Iraq and Afghanistan?

MCINTYRE: Well, they knew this request was coming from General Abizaid. And they had made plans to accommodate it. Already 10,000 troops beyond what was already planned to rotate in have been identified, and they're being alerted. The Pentagon says in the next couple of weeks they'll be alerting others, as well.

They insist they can handle this. Although, as you are well aware, critics are insisting this is just another sign the military is stretched too thin.

DOBBS: Jamie, thank you very much. Jamie McIntyre, our senior Pentagon correspondent.

Lawmakers on Capitol Hill were as outraged as Secretary Rumsfeld about the abuse of Iraqi prisoners, but they also had strong words about the Pentagon after a briefing by senior Army officials. Leading senators said the Pentagon failed to keep them informed about this scandal, and they called upon Secretary Rumsfeld to testify in public.

Congressional correspondent, Ed Henry, reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ED HENRY, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Senator John McCain took direct aim at Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld.

MCCAIN: Congress should have been notified of this situation a long time ago. It's a neglect of the responsibilities that Secretary Rumsfeld and the civilian leaders of the Pentagon have to keep the Congress informed of an issue of this magnitude.

HENRY: McCain and several colleagues demanded that the Pentagon chief testify as soon as possible in public. Even one of the administration's staunchest allies, Senate Armed Services chairman, John Warner, said the Pentagon had not been forthcoming.

Flanked by Army officials, he repeatedly said the problem was with the military civilian leadership, a clear rebuke of Rumsfeld.

SEN. JOHN WARNER (R-VA), CHAIRMAN, ARMED SERVICE COMMITTEE: I'm gravely concerned about this situation. I have been privileged to be associated with the military for over a half century and on this committee for 25 years now. And this is as serious a problem, a breakdown in discipline as I've ever observed.

HENRY: Rumsfeld did not respond directly to the criticism at a Pentagon briefing this afternoon, referring, indeed, to a one- paragraph military press release issued in January.

Senate Democratic leader Tom Daschle lashed out at the fact that Rumsfeld had briefed lawmakers on the situation in Iraq last Wednesday, hours before CBS aired the graphic photos, and never mentioned the abuse issue.

SEN. TOM DASCHLE (D-SD), MINORITY LEADER: They had an opportunity, in over an hour's time, to tell us, to come clean, and now we've learned that they've even asked -- they had asked CBS to delay for a couple of weeks the release of this information.

I think that is inexcusable, an outrage, it's wrong, and some sort of explanation is warranted.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HENRY: Lou, we have late word tonight that now a powerful Democratic senator is saying that this scandal could lead to the ouster of senior Pentagon officials, including Rumsfeld himself.

At a private luncheon with Democratic senators this afternoon, Joe Biden of Delaware said he believes that if Congress does not get adequate answers about who knew what and when, he thinks that senior officials at the Pentagon should go, including the resignation possibly of Rumsfeld himself -- Lou.

DOBBS: Ed, thank you very much. Ed Henry, reporting from Capitol Hill.

President Bush today defended the conduct of the war in Iraq during a campaign stop in Ohio. President Bush said the United States will fulfill its mission and make certain Iraq is free.

White House correspondent Dana Bash is traveling with the president and joins me now from Cincinnati, Ohio -- Dana.

DANA BASH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Lou, first, on the Iraqi prisoner issue, the White House has been somewhat vague about what the president knew and when he knew it about this whole issue. But we did get a little bit more information today.

The White House spokesman, Scott McClellan, said that the president was informed by General Ricardo Sanchez some time after he began looking into this matter at the end of January, although the timing on that is still pretty unclear from the White House.

As for the photos of the White House, says the president they didn't know they existed at all until they aired on "60 Minutes" and he also didn't know about this classified report that cataloged the abuses that came out in March. He didn't know about that also until it came out in the news.

And as you said, Lou, the president has been on a bus tour in Michigan and Ohio over the past two days. He has talked about the war in Iraq as part of every one of the speeches that he's given. It's part of his standard stump speech, defending the war in Iraq, saying that he promises not to veer from his decision to give back sovereignty on June 30, no matter what the political pressures are at home.

But there has been a notable omission to the president's speeches at all six stops on far on this bus tour. And that is the discussion about Iraqi prisoners. The administration, of course, is engaged, as Jamie was just talking about, in a P.R. blitz, if you will, to try to denounce this around the world.

The president's national security adviser went on three Arab television stations today to talk about the issue, specifically on Al- Jazeera. She talked about this, denouncing it, calling it outrageous.

But the president himself has only talked about this in an interview with local media. He is trying to stay on message. The political advisers on the Bush campaign want him to do so, because they don't want him to sort of get caught up and veer off his message in the battleground states.

He was actually going to have some of the traveling press corps on the bus today, and it was canceled -- Lou.

DOBBS: Dana, thank you very much. Dana Bash, reporting from Cincinnati, Ohio. High drama at the United Nations when the United States walked out of a meeting about the membership of the United Nations human rights commission. The U.S. delegation left the meeting after the United Nations voted to give Sudan a third term on the commission.

The leader of the delegation said it was absurd to give the Sudan a seat on the commission, because Sudan is guilty of massive human rights violations and ethnic cleansing.

Still ahead here, former Ambassador Joe Wilson joins us to talk about Iraq. He says the United States is on the eve of a strategic catastrophe.

Wildfires in southern California nearly triple in size over the past 24 hours. Thousands of people in Southern California have been forced to flee their homes. We'll have a report for you from Los Angeles.

And advocates of overseas outsourcing use bizarre and often confusing language to try to justify the export of American jobs. Tonight, we set the record straight in a special report. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: Wildfires are spreading rapidly across Southern California tonight. Thousands of homes there have been evacuated already.

Major fires are burning now near the cities of Corona and Temecula. Another fire burned thousands of acres at Camp Pendleton Marine Base.

Officials say record high temperatures and persistent dry weather could make for a long, dangerous fire season, a season that has already begun.

Casey Wian reports from Los Angeles.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): This year's early Southern California fire season started with six blazes that, in some cases, overwhelmed firefighters.

Sixteen thousand acres have burned so far, along with a handful of homes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... parties trapped inside. Houses surrounded by fires, elderly...

WIAN: Thousands of residents were evacuate and some returned home Tuesday.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It was scary. It was really bad. The fire started coming over the mountain, and it started getting closer to our neighbor's house. So we just said, "Let's leave."

WIAN: So far, firefighters have caught a break. The dreaded hot Santa Anna Winds have been absent, though even normal ocean breezes fan the flames. Temperatures were down Tuesday, and forecasters predicted more cooling throughout the week.

Even so, an ongoing drought and millions of acres of dead, bark beetle infected trees have turned much of the west into a potential tinderbox. Fire officials fear this may be a preview of a destructive summer throughout the region.

RICK OCHOA, NATIONAL INTERAGENCY FIRE CENTER: The Southern California fires are a wake-up call. Those same conditions are going to be existing later on in Arizona, the northwest, northern Rockies.

WIAN: Last year in California, 14 major fires killed 24 people, destroyed 3,700 homes and burned 3/4 of a million acres.

One of the issues, lack of firefighting resources. Over the winter, some areas have bought more equipment, imposed stricter residential brush clearing regulations and improved communications systems. Still, crews remain shorthanded.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's obviously so. We started off yesterday out of the San Diego area and we headed to Camp Pendleton. We got released last night. Within about 15 minutes of that release, we were reassigned to Riverside County.

WIAN: By Tuesday afternoon, four of the fires were either out or nearly contained, but containment is at least two days away for the largest fires.

On Wednesday, the California Fire Chiefs' Association will testify before Congress to ask for more federal help.

Casey Wian, CNN, Los Angeles.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

DOBBS: Well, turning to the debate over exporting American jobs to cheap overseas labor markets, those who say such outsourcing of American jobs is good for the American economy often talk about what is now being called insourcing.

That is the term that centers the argument that foreign companies are creating millions of jobs in this country, which, in theory, on the part of the advocates of outsourcing, offset the loss of jobs to cheaper foreign labor markets.

Kitty Pilgrim reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KITTY PILGRIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Korean owned Samsung Electronics employs 1,000 people in Austin, Texas, and will add 300 more jobs when their expansion is complete. They say it helps to be closer to the U.S. customers.

HEE KYUN PARK, PRESIDENT, SAMSUNG AUSTIN SEMICONDUCTOR: We try to support our customers in a better way. That's why we are here.

PILGRIM: The Austin chamber of commerce claims the Samsung plant will boost the local economy by $750 million, generating 1,200 jobs in the area.

In the current environment, some would say they are, quote, "insourcing jobs."

The problem with that word is, in many cases, those jobs already existed. Some 6.4 million Americans work for foreign companies here in the United States, but through direct investment many foreign companies simply buy U.S. firms.

In 2002, foreign companies spent $52 billion to buy or set up businesses in the United States.

ROBERT SCOTT, ECONOMIC POLICY INSTITUTE: I think that insourcing is vastly oversold. We can cite a few examples where it actually creates jobs. The vast majority, 94 percent of all those jobs created by multinationals are, in fact, simply acquisitions of jobs.

PILGRIM: Scott estimates only 275,000 jobs were actually created by new foreign operations started in the United States over the last ten years.

Foreign auto companies are often cited as an example of insourcing. Foreign auto companies were forced to set up manufacturing operations in the United States starting in the '80s because of import restrictions.

Toyota now has nine plants in the United States, has invested $15 billion and employs 31,000 Americans. Toyota now sells almost as many vehicles in the United States as in Japan.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PILGRIM: The word "insourcing" is being bandied about in the political battles of this election year. It's a convenient way to repackage foreign direct investment. The phrase is more about rhetoric than it is about jobs -- Lou.

DOBBS: Kitty, thank you very much. Kitty Pilgrim.

Another example of exporting America tonight, this one from President Bush.

As reported earlier, the president is on a two-day bus tour in the Midwest tonight, focusing on jobs and the economy. The bus he is riding, however, is made by Prevost. It is a Canadian company.

Senator Kerry, meanwhile, is using a bus on his tours that's made by an American competitor, Motor Coach Industries. It's made in the United States. Former Vice President Al Gore is going into the television business. Gore, along with a newly formed investment group, has bought the News World International Television Network from Vivendi.

Gore today announced plans to launch a new 24-hour cable channel that will target an audience of 18- to 34-year-olds. Gore denied reports the network will have a liberal slant. He says the program will not be liberal, Democratic or political. Sounds fair and balanced.

Still ahead, Congressional Democrats want to give millions of illegal aliens the right to say in this country legally. One of those Democrats and sponsors of the legislation is Luis Gutierrez. He's my guest tonight.

And former Ambassador Joe Wilson, a leading critic of the Bush administration's foreign policy, its decision to go to war against Iraq. He joins me next. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ANNOUNCER: LOU DOBBS TONIGHT continues. Here now with more news, debate and opinion, Lou Dobbs.

DOBBS: Tonight in "Broken Borders," Democrats today unveiled sweeping immigration reform. The immigration legislation goes much further than the president's proposal.

President Bush's proposal would give legal status to illegal aliens who are already in the United States as guest workers. The Democratic legislation goes, again, even further.

Lisa Sylvester reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

LISA SYLVESTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Supporters call it earned legalization. Illegal aliens already working in the United States would be granted permanent legal status.

SEN. EDWARD KENNEDY (D), MASSACHUSETTS: Immigrants play a vital role in the life of the United States of America. Not only do they toil in the industries of our nation, but their contribution in terms of our communities, their contributions in terms of taxes.

SYLVESTER: The Democratic plan would apply to illegals who have lived in the United States for five years and worked here for two years. It would lift visa caps to make it easier to bring in relatives, and it would ease restrictions for unskilled workers to enter the United States under an expanded H2B visa program.

But it does not include a massive guest worker program, the cornerstone of President Bush's proposal, unveiled earlier this year.

The White House plan would allow an unlimited number of foreign workers to enter the country, as long as there is a willing employer. It would offer temporary work cards to illegals already in the country, but workers must leave after the period expires.

Critics say the Democratic amnesty plan is unworkable. It would overburden state services, including hospitals and schools. Verifying work and residency history would be an administrative nightmare. And they say it would be a slap in the face to all of the legal immigrants who follow the rules.

PAT MCDONOUGH, MARYLAND HOUSE OF DELEGATES: We are not a nation without borders, and we are not a nation without citizenship. If we ever become a nation without borders or citizenship, we will no longer be a nation.

SYLVESTER: The Democrats say amnesty will end illegal immigration by bringing illegal aliens out of the shadows.

But critics see it differently. They see amnesty as a welcome sign for a flood of new illegal aliens.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SYLVESTER: Neither plan is likely to pass this year. Both Democrats and Republicans know this. But introducing these proposals sets up the broader debate going into the election, with each side hoping to pick up the Latino vote -- Lou.

DOBBS: And incidentally, we hope, adding to a national dialogue on this important issue. Lisa, thank you very much.

My next guest is one of the sponsors of the Democratic reform legislation. He says the proposal would reduce illegal immigration in the United States and help to fix this nation's badly broken borders.

Joining me now is Congressman Luis Gutierrez, Democrat from Illinois.

Good to have you with us.

REP. LUIS GUTIERREZ (D), ILLINOIS: Thank you very much, Mr. Dobbs.

DOBBS: Congressman, this legislation, first of all, is amnesty. There's no two ways about it. That's the first thing the critics have focused upon.

Is that something that can survive practically and viably in the legislative process in Congress?

GUTIERREZ: No. 1, Mr. Dobbs, remember in 1986 we passed the Immigration Reform and Control Act. Three million people, undocumented in this country, illegal according to some. Today, most of them, 85 percent, are American citizens, already part of the mainstream of our great nation.

Secondly, yesterday the agricultural bill, I think it's Craig and Kennedy in the Senate, 60 senators, that would allow one million agricultural workers. So we're having a rich immigration debate in this country. And I think one of the things we understand is if you want people to come out of the shadows, if you want people to come out of illegality, you have to allow them to be absorbed completely within our social, economic, political fabric of our society.

So I think we're headed in the right direction. We've done it before. Ronald Reagan was the president. I'd love to see George Bush be the next president when this legislation is passed.

DOBBS: Well, with that kind of support for the president in reforming immigration, why do you not simply support his immigration reform plan, rather than offer up your own?

GUTIERREZ: Right. Well, I think what the president said -- he shared with you, he shared with me, he shared with America. He shared some principles. And he asked the Congress to do its work.

I think that's what we did, Mr. Dobbs. We went to the AFL/CIO. We went to community-based organizations, pro-immigrant groups across this country. We went to my Democratic leadership: Bob Menendez, our caucus chairman, Nancy Pelosi, the minority leader. We went to Senator Kennedy.

Finally, we have a bill in the House and in the Senate ready to move forward to end this vicious cycle of undocumented workers in this country and bring them out of the darkness.

If I really believed that you could take 10 million people and say, "Come out for three years, maybe for another three years, and then you have to go back to your country," that that would end undocumented workers in this country, I might give it a chance.

But I think that's totally unrealistic to expect people to give up their current status for three years on a visa and out of the country.

DOBBS: To give up their visa, versus 12 million illegal Americans, as we style them here, congressman.

The fact is that they're already here. There is a huge issue as to how we deal with that illegality, whether you call it undocumented or whatever. They are -- the fact of life is that somewhere between eight and 12 million, by whatever estimate, here.

How do we go about the very difficult issue that is part of your legislation to verify they've been here five years, to verify that they have been working? And how do we deal with the family amnesty aspect of your legislation?

GUTIERREZ: Well, I think we already did it in 1986. We sent up centers across the country. They have to come in. Mr. Dobbs, they go to church. So you'll have priests and ministers talking about and attesting to the fact that they have come to church.

You'll have employers that will have to fill out forms attesting to what years they worked and how many months. And we're going to -- so we've done it before. I don't think it's that difficult. And the onus is going to be on them.

But Mr. Dobbs, we've brought them forward. We're going to ask them, we're going to say, "Where do you live? Where do you have your savings account? Where are your children attending school? And by the way, we want your fingerprints. And this is not a joke. We want to check those fingerprints with Interpol. We want the CIA to take a look at them. We want the FBI. And we want you, undocumented worker, to pay the costs of all those things so we can guarantee who you are. So, they're going to come forward. They're going to give us this documentation at any cost attributed to this will be paid for by the undocumented worker. Mr. Dobbs, they're already paying thousands of dollars to get illegal documents and being exploited through legal service that really don't benefit them whatsoever.

DOBBS: Benefit them. I think one of the aspects is that we have to talk about, is the cost of illegal immigrants in terms of Social Services. And as you know, a recent report showing excessive immigration leads to lower wages for Native American citizens already working in this country, substantial. This is going to be a very difficult issue, and advancing it at this particular point, there are those who are saying, simply, that the Democrats are trying to win back the initiative taken by the president, and that it is an election year gambit.

How do you respond?

GUTIERREZ: Well, no. 1, we didn't just make this proposal. We had similar proposals before endorsed by AFL-CIO. Mr. Gephardt introduced one two years ago. It was not as broad -- not broad and sweeping as this proposal in that we couldn't get over the hump of the temporary worker program. Because if the Department of Labor estimate that is during the next 10 years we're going to create around 60 million low skill entry level jobs during the next 10 years, we are going create about 60 million low skill, what's going to happen is we're going to attract undocumented workers to this country to fulfill those jobs. What I want to do is say, let's set up standards.

Prevailing wage, (UNINTELLIGIBLE), collective bargaining agreements so that we can lift everybody and lift the wages of all workers and make those standards. And they go to court and make those prevail in the court, should they wish to exploit the workers. That would lift the wages of all the workers. Look, we already have a situation in which we have 8 to 12 million. Let's incorporate, lets tax them, lets make sure the employer sends their social security, they're withholding taxes. Let's make sure we benefit fully from their stay in this country.

Lastly, Mr. Dobbs, the Supreme Court said you have to educate every child, regardless of the country. So, we have to educate them. That's our legal system. The Supreme Court also said, if they're ill and going to an emergency room, the most expensive kind of medical service, we have to attend to them. We can't let them die. So given that, why not tax them, incorporate them and let then contribute as other undocumented workers have done in the past. DOBBS: Congressman, there are issues here, one including the fact the legislation you're advancing doesn't provide for considerable improvement in border security. Secondly, we have already seen in the first six months since the president, the past six months, since the president proposed his reform, an extraordinary explosion in the number of illegal aliens crossing the borders with Mexico.

Now, with further immigration proposals, such as yours, any thought as to what we're going to do about that in the short term because the fact is we have, if you will, a native population of illegal aliens that we're going to have to deal with sociologically, intelligently, rationally, but we also have a problem to the south. 90 percent of those apprehended are Mexican crossing that border. The Mexican government is not conducting itself, let us say, with great distinction on behalf of it's people. Wages are down. The government, as you may know, in many quarters of Mexico, as you know, corrupt. And the United States is the refuge of first resort. What are we going to do about that and how?

GUTIERREZ: I think the reason, Mr. Dobbs 90 percent of those apprehended is because 90 percent of the enforcement are on the border.

DOBBS: Congressman, I can't let you get away with that one.

GUTIERREZ: It's true.

DOBBS: I'm talking about the southern border. The fact of the matter is 90 percent of those crossing the Mexican-U.S. Border illegally are Mexican. It's not because of resources. It's because that's the number of people crossing.

GUTIERREZ: Remember, but remember, the majority of undocumented workers of those that are here illegally in the United States today did not cross that border. When we talk about apprehension...

DOBBS: Wait a minute. You and I have talked. I'm fond of you. I have great respect for you. But I can't really think -- I don't think that you would want me to say -- and I certainly don't want to hear you say -- that a number of people with a range of 8 to 12 million we know anything about them. That is the widest possible estimate. And then to characterize them further, it seems to me, highly speculative.

Would you agree with that me?

GUTIERREZ: I would agree it's speculative. We have to go on the studies we have now. One day Mr. Dobbs, invite me back and we'll talk about the studies that identify how it is people are undocumented in this country. Most of them actually, come through airports. Let's put it this way, millions of people come through airports on student visa. Why don't you give me this. Millions have come through airports, steamboats, legally into the United States, and than they over stay their student's visa, they're visitor visa, they're tourist visa. We know millions come that way.

DOBBS: I couldn't agree more. But what I said was, across the Mexican border, just to be clear.

GUTIERREZ: I agree that border is a problem. So why don't we rationalize and legalize their coming here?

DOBBS: Congressman, please come back soon. Because, we're going to talk about legalizing, rationalizing and coming up on...

GUTIERREZ: Let's talk about the Mexican border, because I think you and I have a lot to agree on.

DOBBS: I look forward to that. I look forward to disagreeing with you about a few things. Luis Gutierrez, Congressman from Illinois, thank you very much, sir.

That brings us to the subject of "Tonight's Poll." do you believe that race is playing a significant part over the debate over immigration reform, yes or no. Cast your vote at cnn.com/lou.

Still ahead, "The Politics of Truth." Ambassador Joe Wilson on his new book, the war in Iraq and what he calls the lies of the Bush administration.

A new vision for space. The president's controversial plans for a new era in space over the next half century. We will be joined by one of the country's leading astrophysicists and my friend Charles Liu. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: My next guest, ambassador Joe Wilson, a distinguishes former ambassador, who served this country in Africa and in Iraq. Ambassador Wilson, is also, of course, an outspoken critic of the intelligence used by the Bush administration to justify the onset of the war against Saddam Hussein. Wilson has just published a book. It's called "The Politics of Truth: Inside the Lies that Lead to War and Betrayed my Wife's CIA Identity"

I talked with Ambassador Wilson and began by asking for his assessment of the Bush administration strategy in Iraq.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JOSEPH WILSON, FORMER AMBASSADOR: When this administration decided the only way to deal with the disarmament issue was to unilaterally or with a small coterie of coalition partners invade, conquer and occupy, it led us into a disastrous situation. I believe the fruit of that is being harvested now, regrettably, and I hate it.

But -- but with respect to the Republican Party, I have a lot of respect for the two-party system, and I have a lot of friends who are Republicans. And I have voted Republican in the past.

DOBBS: Is -- given the past year's experience, given where we are today, is it your judgment that democracy in Iraq, democratization in the Middle East, is possible, a viable foreign policy for this country? WILSON: Bringing democratization at the barrel of an Abrams A1 tank or an M-16 is extraordinarily difficult. And even in the best of circumstances democratization is something that takes a lot of time and a lot of work and is not something that is brought to a society through the military.

DOBBS: What would you have the United States do now in Iraq?

WILSON: Anything I say about that now is likely going to be overtaken by events within the next 48 hours. I believe, as a former Reagan official and good friend of mine said just the other night, we are on the eve of a strategic catastrophe.

Now, if we don't have a plan already off the shelf which basically involves putting in massive amounts of military soldiers and material and heavy armor -- one of the big problems in this is not the lack of body armor. It is the lack of Bradley fighting vehicles and M-1 tanks to protect our forces out there.

You contrast what we did in Baghdad with what we did in Bosnia, where we took no battlefield deaths during the eight years that we did that, to the 700 deaths we're taking now.

But in order to recoup the situation, you've got to quell the insurgency. You've got to shock it, and at the same time you've got to demonstrate to the international community that you are serious. And the only way you can demonstrate that is through this massive new investment of military and material.

DOBBS: You are siding with Senator John Kerry. The president, Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, whose resignation you've called for, all are basically saying the same thing. But those are not wide separations between these two candidates for the highest office in the land.

WILSON: Well, you're right now. And in fact, with Secretary Rumsfeld, I actually called for his resignation on your show and was delighted to do so.

But the difference is, if you want to go back and take a look at this, Senator Kerry has been talking about the internationalization of this since the middle of last year, at a time when the administration, Don Rumsfeld included, were still very unilateralist in their perspective, not willing to share either the duties of the reconstruction or even take a hard look at how you encourage other nations to go in and participate in the national police force, in the reconstruction effort, in the static guard border patrol.

DOBBS: The politics of truth, the truth of politics. We are still months into the investigation into who in the administration leaked to Robert Novak the -- revealed the CIA identity of your wife.

Are you surprised at the length of time, first, that it has taken to -- to carry out this investigation?

WILSON: I am, because there are not hundreds of officials who sit at the nexus between foreign policy, i.e. have a national -- a secret security clearance, and politics, where they would have a political agenda that they might want to defend by exposing a CIA national security asset.

DOBBS: You initially put -- suggested strongly that Karl Rove was responsible. In your book, you suggest also Libby. You suggest Abrams. You have in your -- do you feel that you know who revealed her identity?

WILSON: Well, let me be very clear on this. In the book, what I try and do is bring together all those sort of little bits of information that have been circulating around Washington, many of which have been published. One just published last Saturday in the "New York Daily News," which says sources close to the grand jury fingers Libby and Rove for this.

Because I think it's been underreported. Journalists have told me, and I've put it in the book, that they've been intimidated by the White House. They're afraid of Rove -- they'll end up in Guantanamo, which is a metaphor for being -- having their access cut off. Or they'll lose their jobs if they print this.

DOBBS: Robert Novak, your personal feelings today on -- on Robert Novak for having published the information that he was given.

WILSON: As an officer in the government for 23 years, who swore on oath to uphold and defend the Constitution, I would defend his right to publish.

The questions I have for Novak are what did her name add to the story? Didn't add anything. And secondly, when you went to the CIA and the CIA told you not to print the story, not to print her name, what part of no didn't you understand?

Now with respect to another part of Novak's comportment, which I lay out in the book, he was telling strangers on the street, one of whom happened to know me -- I don't know how many other strangers he told. But he told a stranger who happened to know me two days after my article appeared that my wife worked for the CIA. This was before he had a second confirmation. This was before he was prepared to go to press with this.

I find that ethically challenged, to say the best -- to say the least. I find it repugnant. And frankly, to be doing that puts people unnecessarily at risk. Who knows who you might be talking to on the street? For that, I harbor no affection for Mr. Novak, to say the least.

DOBBS: The politics of truth. We are, in every respect in this country right now, challenged, both as reporters, as government officials, public servants, in really every quarter to both discern the truth, to report the truth, to understand it and to create policy around it.

WILSON: I have lived in dictatorships, from Franco's Spain to Saddam's Iraq and many African dictatorships in between. I have looked at what the founding fathers did in creating a system of government that was based on a healthy skepticism of the power of the executive branch.

And as a consequence, you have checks and balances in terms of institutions, the Congress and the Supreme Court, in rights and privileges that accrue to the press, including Novak's right to publish what he and his editors see fit, in order to provide another check on the power of the executive branch.

And then finally, the right of the individual to call his government to account. And that is a civic duty. When you know that your government has passed false information, particularly in a debate as important as war and peace, sending 130,000 kids to kill and to die for their country, it is imperative that that debate be held on a set of commonly accepted facts.

That was not the case here. I knew that not to be the case. I challenged my government to do that. That was a civic duty. That was not courageous or heroic. That was a civic duty.

We need more of that in a democracy, particularly when the institutional -- the institutions that are supposed to be providing these checks and balances seem to be temporarily enfeebled.

DOBBS: Ambassador Joe Wilson, thanks for being here.

WILSON: Good to be with you, Lou.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

DOBBS: When we continue, the future of our space program. Trying to go to the moon and to Mars but on a budget. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: In January, President Bush unveiled a bold new plan for a man exploration of space. Today however, the president's commission on the moon, Mars and beyond fielded difficult questions about the very future of the space program. Peter Viles reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We do not know where this journey will end yet we know this human beings are headed into the cosmos.

PETER VILES, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The president's plan to go back to the moon by 2020 and on to Mars without busting the budget means tough questions for NASA.

JOHN HIGGINBOTHAM, SPACEVEST: With the greatest respect, I don't understand why the space agency runs a cable channel. I don't get it, OK? I'm sure there's a lot of people at NASA right now. They're about ready to strangle me but...

VILES: But NASA's administrator essentially agreed, telling a presidential commission we've got to change.

SEAN O'KEEFE, NASA ADMINISTRATOR: There is no way that the present organizational structure and how we do business today will be the most appropriate way to go about doing this.

VILES: That commission headed by former Airforce secretary Pete Aldridge will recommend exactly how NASA should move beyond the space shuttle and the space station and go back to the moon and on to Mars while living on a budget.

PETE ALDRIDGE, PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION ON MOON, MARS, AND BEYOND: Over the next 30 years, NASA will spend $500 billion over that 30-year period for activities in space. With that kind of money, we should be able to do this mission.

VILES: One potential key to all of this, privatize more of the space program, perhaps launch services which, in theory, helps build a sustainable space industry in the private sector.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think we could be doing a lot more, a lot better, a lot quicker if we could focus on core missions that are government, spend off, privatize, outsource, anything that's not core to those missions.

VILES: There was a warning from Wall Street. Institutional investors are not explorers. In fact, they're somewhat timid. And with or without commercialization the government will have to lead the way in space.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

VILES: The Aldridge commission due to report its recommendations in June. Its mandate is sweeping to set the agenda for space exploration well into the 21st century.

DOBBS: Thank you very much.

Joining me now for more on the future of space exploration, astrophysicist Charles Liu of the National Museum of Natural History. Good to have you with us. The idea of commercialization versus federal funding here to drive NASA. Which is the better approach short and long term?

PROF. CHARLES LIU, ASTROPHYSICS, CUNY: In the short term, if you ignore basic research and funding, you're going to run out of money in this limited budget era before you get anywhere close to the moon or Mars. In the long term you should definitely bring in the private sector. But after the government, academia and non-profit organizations establish the basic research foundations that are so necessary to triple this magnitude.

DOBBS: Billions of dollars, Mars to the moon, the cosmos. On 15 to 20 billion a year, does that make sense?

LIU: Not possible under current technology. That's why basic research is so important. People don't realize that before we went to the moon on the Apollo missions there was over a decade of some of the most intensive basic astronomy space science astrophysics research in the history of humanity. If we're going to try to get somewhere like the moon or to Mars on a shoestring budget, we have to rely on the ability of our innovation and our discovery to find us cheaper ways of getting there in the long run.

DOBBS: Quickly, the Opportunity, Spirit rovers sending back fabulous data detailed and imagery, characterized what we've learned and how important the mission has been.

LIU: We are now almost 100 percent certain that Mars was once wet. Now as Spirit and Opportunity are rolling around and checking out the craters and the land forms on Mars, we're trying to figure out exactly where that life might have been.

DOBBS: For that we need a mission to Mars. Charles Liu, thank you very much.

LIU: My pleasure.

DOBBS: Still ahead. A warning that soaring energy prices will be painful not only for you and me but for the entire world. We'll have that and a great deal more still ahead. Please stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: Stocks a little higher on Wall Street today. The Dow up more than three points. The Nasdaq added almost 12. The S&P 500 up over 2. Energy prices soared again today. Christine Romans with the story -- Christine.

CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Crude oil prices above $39 a barrel. Highest since 1990. Gasoline futures for the seventh day in a row set a record high. We know those energy prices are squeezing middle class Americans. Now, the International Energy Agency says high oil prices will be painful for the entire world economy. In fact, the IEA says energy prices will stay high and may inflict substantial damage to countries that import oil. Lou, those higher energy prices have been a boom for the major oil companies in their profits. Indeed the quarter overall has been blockbuster. S&P 500 company earnings up 25 percent. Look at the stock market averages. They are barely higher for the year for the S&P 500. Lower for the Dow and the Nasdaq.

DOBBS: And it sounds like a lousy summer for gasoline prices.

ROMANS: A lousy summer. No end in sight for gasoline prices.

DOBBS: Still ahead, the results of tonight's poll. A reminder to check our website for our complete list of companies that to this point we have confirmed to be exporting America. CNN.com/lou. We continue in a moment. Please stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: The results of tonight's poll. 66 percent of you say race does play a significant part in the national debate over immigration reform. That's our broadcast. Join us tomorrow. Edward Peck, former U.S. ambassador to Iraq, will be here. Ambassador Peck says the United States should withdraw from Iraq and as soon as possible.

And we continue our special report on exporting America. More companies finding that outsourcing simply isn't worth the price. For all of us here good night from New York. "ANDERSON COOPER 360" is next.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com


Aired May 4, 2004 - 18:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LOU DOBBS, HOST (voice-over): Tonight, the prisoner abuse scandal in Iraq is widening, and senators and congressmen are demanding answers.

SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R), ARIZONA: Congress should have been notified of this situation a long time ago.

DOBBS: Tonight, I'll talk with former Ambassador Joe Wilson about what Wilson claims are the lies of the Bush administration, the leak of his wife's CIA identity and Iraq.

JOE WILSON, FORMER AMBASSADOR: We are on the even of a strategic catastrophe.

DOBBS: Congressional Democrats have launched a radical plan for immigration reform, a plan that would give millions of illegal aliens the chance to stay in this country legally.

My guest, one of the plan's sponsors, Congressman Luis Gutierrez.

Mission to Mars. Tough questions for NASA on its ambitious program for space exploration in the next half century. Tonight, astrophysicist Charles Liu is my guest.

And thousands of people flee their homes in southern California as wildfires sweep through dry brush lands.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT for Tuesday, May 04. Here now for an hour of new, debate and opinion, Lou Dobbs.

DOBBS: Good evening. Totally unacceptable and un-American. Those were the words Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld used today to condemn the abuse of Iraqi prisoners by Iraqi soldiers.

Secretary Rumsfeld said the soldiers responsible for the abuse let down their country, and he said they will be brought to justice.

Senior Pentagon correspondent Jamie McIntyre reports -- Jamie.

JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, those pictures today put Defense Secretary Rumsfeld in the uncomfortable position of having to draw a distinction of the actions of the U.S. military and the torture and mass murder of the regime of Saddam Hussein.

Defense Secretary Rumsfeld, in denouncing the actions of the soldiers seen in the photographs said, quote, "This is an exception."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: Let there be no doubt that this matter will be pursued properly under the uniform code of military justice.

The actions of the soldiers in those photographs are totally unacceptable and un-American. Any who engaged in such action let down their comrades who serve honorably each day, and they let down their country.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MCINTYRE: With some in Congress calling for hearings, the Army dispatched its No. 2 general, the vice chief of staff, up to the Hill to reassure members of Congress that the Army could investigate itself.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEN. GEORGE CASEY, ARMY VICE CHIEF OF STAFF: What you see on those pictures is not indicative of our training or of our values. It is a complete breakdown in discipline.

We are fully committed to getting to the bottom of this and holding accountable those who we find guilty through the judicial process.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MCINTYRE: So far, a dozen people have been reprimanded or face criminal charges, but even with the investigation still under way, the Army is saying this is an isolated case.

Still, they said there have been 25 prisoners who have died while in U.S. custody in Iraq or Afghanistan. In 12 of the deaths, it was said to be from natural causes. Three were ruled to be homicides, including one at the Abu Ghraib, which was ruled justifiably homicide when a prisoner tried to escape. Ten cases still under investigation.

Rumsfeld today acknowledged that the revelations had undercut the United States and the war of ideas with the Arab world. But when asked if he would apologized, he stopped short, simply saying there might be some things that the U.S. could do that would be helpful in making the case that this was an exception, not the rule -- Lou.

DOBBS: Why would there be any resistance on the part of the secretary of defense, Jamie, to apologizing to Iraqis, to the 130,000 men and women serving in Iraq for these instances of abuse of Iraqi prisoners?

MCINTYRE: It was interesting. In watching him, I wasn't sure. I think he might have been caught off guard by the question.

It would seem that this might be a case in which an apology would be in order. But perhaps the secretary didn't want to deliver one off the cuff at a Pentagon briefing when he hadn't really thought about it. This might not have been, he thought, the best forum for that.

DOBBS: One of the questions of the many that have been sent in to us by our viewers here, Jamie, is why the focus is entirely upon the soldiers of the 800th Military Police and not on officers in the chain of command who are responsible for the conduct of those troops?

Is the focus of these investigations, at least five of them, focusing on the chain of command as well, including the officers responsible for these people?

MCINTYRE: Well, I don't think it's at all clear. The investigations we know are continuing. They're looking, in particular, at some of the military intelligence officers who ran that particular cell block. We also know that some people have been relieved of responsibilities, some higher-ranking officers.

But today, Senator John Warner, chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee, said he'd been told in the briefing that one of the commanders had been relieved of command, taken off a promotion list but was still serving honorably in the U.S. military. And he said he wasn't sure he was comfortable with that.

I think those are the kinds of questions that Congress would like some answers to.

DOBBS: When you hear from distinguished senators like Senator McCain and Senator Warner who are, obviously, outright furious about what is going on here, it suggests we're going to hear a lot more from Capitol Hill on this issue.

Jamie, the Pentagon quickly today decided to maintain the number of troops in Iraq at about 140,000 troops through the end of next year. How is the Pentagon going to manage that with so many troops already committed to both Iraq and Afghanistan?

MCINTYRE: Well, they knew this request was coming from General Abizaid. And they had made plans to accommodate it. Already 10,000 troops beyond what was already planned to rotate in have been identified, and they're being alerted. The Pentagon says in the next couple of weeks they'll be alerting others, as well.

They insist they can handle this. Although, as you are well aware, critics are insisting this is just another sign the military is stretched too thin.

DOBBS: Jamie, thank you very much. Jamie McIntyre, our senior Pentagon correspondent.

Lawmakers on Capitol Hill were as outraged as Secretary Rumsfeld about the abuse of Iraqi prisoners, but they also had strong words about the Pentagon after a briefing by senior Army officials. Leading senators said the Pentagon failed to keep them informed about this scandal, and they called upon Secretary Rumsfeld to testify in public.

Congressional correspondent, Ed Henry, reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ED HENRY, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Senator John McCain took direct aim at Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld.

MCCAIN: Congress should have been notified of this situation a long time ago. It's a neglect of the responsibilities that Secretary Rumsfeld and the civilian leaders of the Pentagon have to keep the Congress informed of an issue of this magnitude.

HENRY: McCain and several colleagues demanded that the Pentagon chief testify as soon as possible in public. Even one of the administration's staunchest allies, Senate Armed Services chairman, John Warner, said the Pentagon had not been forthcoming.

Flanked by Army officials, he repeatedly said the problem was with the military civilian leadership, a clear rebuke of Rumsfeld.

SEN. JOHN WARNER (R-VA), CHAIRMAN, ARMED SERVICE COMMITTEE: I'm gravely concerned about this situation. I have been privileged to be associated with the military for over a half century and on this committee for 25 years now. And this is as serious a problem, a breakdown in discipline as I've ever observed.

HENRY: Rumsfeld did not respond directly to the criticism at a Pentagon briefing this afternoon, referring, indeed, to a one- paragraph military press release issued in January.

Senate Democratic leader Tom Daschle lashed out at the fact that Rumsfeld had briefed lawmakers on the situation in Iraq last Wednesday, hours before CBS aired the graphic photos, and never mentioned the abuse issue.

SEN. TOM DASCHLE (D-SD), MINORITY LEADER: They had an opportunity, in over an hour's time, to tell us, to come clean, and now we've learned that they've even asked -- they had asked CBS to delay for a couple of weeks the release of this information.

I think that is inexcusable, an outrage, it's wrong, and some sort of explanation is warranted.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HENRY: Lou, we have late word tonight that now a powerful Democratic senator is saying that this scandal could lead to the ouster of senior Pentagon officials, including Rumsfeld himself.

At a private luncheon with Democratic senators this afternoon, Joe Biden of Delaware said he believes that if Congress does not get adequate answers about who knew what and when, he thinks that senior officials at the Pentagon should go, including the resignation possibly of Rumsfeld himself -- Lou.

DOBBS: Ed, thank you very much. Ed Henry, reporting from Capitol Hill.

President Bush today defended the conduct of the war in Iraq during a campaign stop in Ohio. President Bush said the United States will fulfill its mission and make certain Iraq is free.

White House correspondent Dana Bash is traveling with the president and joins me now from Cincinnati, Ohio -- Dana.

DANA BASH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Lou, first, on the Iraqi prisoner issue, the White House has been somewhat vague about what the president knew and when he knew it about this whole issue. But we did get a little bit more information today.

The White House spokesman, Scott McClellan, said that the president was informed by General Ricardo Sanchez some time after he began looking into this matter at the end of January, although the timing on that is still pretty unclear from the White House.

As for the photos of the White House, says the president they didn't know they existed at all until they aired on "60 Minutes" and he also didn't know about this classified report that cataloged the abuses that came out in March. He didn't know about that also until it came out in the news.

And as you said, Lou, the president has been on a bus tour in Michigan and Ohio over the past two days. He has talked about the war in Iraq as part of every one of the speeches that he's given. It's part of his standard stump speech, defending the war in Iraq, saying that he promises not to veer from his decision to give back sovereignty on June 30, no matter what the political pressures are at home.

But there has been a notable omission to the president's speeches at all six stops on far on this bus tour. And that is the discussion about Iraqi prisoners. The administration, of course, is engaged, as Jamie was just talking about, in a P.R. blitz, if you will, to try to denounce this around the world.

The president's national security adviser went on three Arab television stations today to talk about the issue, specifically on Al- Jazeera. She talked about this, denouncing it, calling it outrageous.

But the president himself has only talked about this in an interview with local media. He is trying to stay on message. The political advisers on the Bush campaign want him to do so, because they don't want him to sort of get caught up and veer off his message in the battleground states.

He was actually going to have some of the traveling press corps on the bus today, and it was canceled -- Lou.

DOBBS: Dana, thank you very much. Dana Bash, reporting from Cincinnati, Ohio. High drama at the United Nations when the United States walked out of a meeting about the membership of the United Nations human rights commission. The U.S. delegation left the meeting after the United Nations voted to give Sudan a third term on the commission.

The leader of the delegation said it was absurd to give the Sudan a seat on the commission, because Sudan is guilty of massive human rights violations and ethnic cleansing.

Still ahead here, former Ambassador Joe Wilson joins us to talk about Iraq. He says the United States is on the eve of a strategic catastrophe.

Wildfires in southern California nearly triple in size over the past 24 hours. Thousands of people in Southern California have been forced to flee their homes. We'll have a report for you from Los Angeles.

And advocates of overseas outsourcing use bizarre and often confusing language to try to justify the export of American jobs. Tonight, we set the record straight in a special report. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: Wildfires are spreading rapidly across Southern California tonight. Thousands of homes there have been evacuated already.

Major fires are burning now near the cities of Corona and Temecula. Another fire burned thousands of acres at Camp Pendleton Marine Base.

Officials say record high temperatures and persistent dry weather could make for a long, dangerous fire season, a season that has already begun.

Casey Wian reports from Los Angeles.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): This year's early Southern California fire season started with six blazes that, in some cases, overwhelmed firefighters.

Sixteen thousand acres have burned so far, along with a handful of homes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... parties trapped inside. Houses surrounded by fires, elderly...

WIAN: Thousands of residents were evacuate and some returned home Tuesday.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It was scary. It was really bad. The fire started coming over the mountain, and it started getting closer to our neighbor's house. So we just said, "Let's leave."

WIAN: So far, firefighters have caught a break. The dreaded hot Santa Anna Winds have been absent, though even normal ocean breezes fan the flames. Temperatures were down Tuesday, and forecasters predicted more cooling throughout the week.

Even so, an ongoing drought and millions of acres of dead, bark beetle infected trees have turned much of the west into a potential tinderbox. Fire officials fear this may be a preview of a destructive summer throughout the region.

RICK OCHOA, NATIONAL INTERAGENCY FIRE CENTER: The Southern California fires are a wake-up call. Those same conditions are going to be existing later on in Arizona, the northwest, northern Rockies.

WIAN: Last year in California, 14 major fires killed 24 people, destroyed 3,700 homes and burned 3/4 of a million acres.

One of the issues, lack of firefighting resources. Over the winter, some areas have bought more equipment, imposed stricter residential brush clearing regulations and improved communications systems. Still, crews remain shorthanded.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's obviously so. We started off yesterday out of the San Diego area and we headed to Camp Pendleton. We got released last night. Within about 15 minutes of that release, we were reassigned to Riverside County.

WIAN: By Tuesday afternoon, four of the fires were either out or nearly contained, but containment is at least two days away for the largest fires.

On Wednesday, the California Fire Chiefs' Association will testify before Congress to ask for more federal help.

Casey Wian, CNN, Los Angeles.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

DOBBS: Well, turning to the debate over exporting American jobs to cheap overseas labor markets, those who say such outsourcing of American jobs is good for the American economy often talk about what is now being called insourcing.

That is the term that centers the argument that foreign companies are creating millions of jobs in this country, which, in theory, on the part of the advocates of outsourcing, offset the loss of jobs to cheaper foreign labor markets.

Kitty Pilgrim reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KITTY PILGRIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Korean owned Samsung Electronics employs 1,000 people in Austin, Texas, and will add 300 more jobs when their expansion is complete. They say it helps to be closer to the U.S. customers.

HEE KYUN PARK, PRESIDENT, SAMSUNG AUSTIN SEMICONDUCTOR: We try to support our customers in a better way. That's why we are here.

PILGRIM: The Austin chamber of commerce claims the Samsung plant will boost the local economy by $750 million, generating 1,200 jobs in the area.

In the current environment, some would say they are, quote, "insourcing jobs."

The problem with that word is, in many cases, those jobs already existed. Some 6.4 million Americans work for foreign companies here in the United States, but through direct investment many foreign companies simply buy U.S. firms.

In 2002, foreign companies spent $52 billion to buy or set up businesses in the United States.

ROBERT SCOTT, ECONOMIC POLICY INSTITUTE: I think that insourcing is vastly oversold. We can cite a few examples where it actually creates jobs. The vast majority, 94 percent of all those jobs created by multinationals are, in fact, simply acquisitions of jobs.

PILGRIM: Scott estimates only 275,000 jobs were actually created by new foreign operations started in the United States over the last ten years.

Foreign auto companies are often cited as an example of insourcing. Foreign auto companies were forced to set up manufacturing operations in the United States starting in the '80s because of import restrictions.

Toyota now has nine plants in the United States, has invested $15 billion and employs 31,000 Americans. Toyota now sells almost as many vehicles in the United States as in Japan.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PILGRIM: The word "insourcing" is being bandied about in the political battles of this election year. It's a convenient way to repackage foreign direct investment. The phrase is more about rhetoric than it is about jobs -- Lou.

DOBBS: Kitty, thank you very much. Kitty Pilgrim.

Another example of exporting America tonight, this one from President Bush.

As reported earlier, the president is on a two-day bus tour in the Midwest tonight, focusing on jobs and the economy. The bus he is riding, however, is made by Prevost. It is a Canadian company.

Senator Kerry, meanwhile, is using a bus on his tours that's made by an American competitor, Motor Coach Industries. It's made in the United States. Former Vice President Al Gore is going into the television business. Gore, along with a newly formed investment group, has bought the News World International Television Network from Vivendi.

Gore today announced plans to launch a new 24-hour cable channel that will target an audience of 18- to 34-year-olds. Gore denied reports the network will have a liberal slant. He says the program will not be liberal, Democratic or political. Sounds fair and balanced.

Still ahead, Congressional Democrats want to give millions of illegal aliens the right to say in this country legally. One of those Democrats and sponsors of the legislation is Luis Gutierrez. He's my guest tonight.

And former Ambassador Joe Wilson, a leading critic of the Bush administration's foreign policy, its decision to go to war against Iraq. He joins me next. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ANNOUNCER: LOU DOBBS TONIGHT continues. Here now with more news, debate and opinion, Lou Dobbs.

DOBBS: Tonight in "Broken Borders," Democrats today unveiled sweeping immigration reform. The immigration legislation goes much further than the president's proposal.

President Bush's proposal would give legal status to illegal aliens who are already in the United States as guest workers. The Democratic legislation goes, again, even further.

Lisa Sylvester reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

LISA SYLVESTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Supporters call it earned legalization. Illegal aliens already working in the United States would be granted permanent legal status.

SEN. EDWARD KENNEDY (D), MASSACHUSETTS: Immigrants play a vital role in the life of the United States of America. Not only do they toil in the industries of our nation, but their contribution in terms of our communities, their contributions in terms of taxes.

SYLVESTER: The Democratic plan would apply to illegals who have lived in the United States for five years and worked here for two years. It would lift visa caps to make it easier to bring in relatives, and it would ease restrictions for unskilled workers to enter the United States under an expanded H2B visa program.

But it does not include a massive guest worker program, the cornerstone of President Bush's proposal, unveiled earlier this year.

The White House plan would allow an unlimited number of foreign workers to enter the country, as long as there is a willing employer. It would offer temporary work cards to illegals already in the country, but workers must leave after the period expires.

Critics say the Democratic amnesty plan is unworkable. It would overburden state services, including hospitals and schools. Verifying work and residency history would be an administrative nightmare. And they say it would be a slap in the face to all of the legal immigrants who follow the rules.

PAT MCDONOUGH, MARYLAND HOUSE OF DELEGATES: We are not a nation without borders, and we are not a nation without citizenship. If we ever become a nation without borders or citizenship, we will no longer be a nation.

SYLVESTER: The Democrats say amnesty will end illegal immigration by bringing illegal aliens out of the shadows.

But critics see it differently. They see amnesty as a welcome sign for a flood of new illegal aliens.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SYLVESTER: Neither plan is likely to pass this year. Both Democrats and Republicans know this. But introducing these proposals sets up the broader debate going into the election, with each side hoping to pick up the Latino vote -- Lou.

DOBBS: And incidentally, we hope, adding to a national dialogue on this important issue. Lisa, thank you very much.

My next guest is one of the sponsors of the Democratic reform legislation. He says the proposal would reduce illegal immigration in the United States and help to fix this nation's badly broken borders.

Joining me now is Congressman Luis Gutierrez, Democrat from Illinois.

Good to have you with us.

REP. LUIS GUTIERREZ (D), ILLINOIS: Thank you very much, Mr. Dobbs.

DOBBS: Congressman, this legislation, first of all, is amnesty. There's no two ways about it. That's the first thing the critics have focused upon.

Is that something that can survive practically and viably in the legislative process in Congress?

GUTIERREZ: No. 1, Mr. Dobbs, remember in 1986 we passed the Immigration Reform and Control Act. Three million people, undocumented in this country, illegal according to some. Today, most of them, 85 percent, are American citizens, already part of the mainstream of our great nation.

Secondly, yesterday the agricultural bill, I think it's Craig and Kennedy in the Senate, 60 senators, that would allow one million agricultural workers. So we're having a rich immigration debate in this country. And I think one of the things we understand is if you want people to come out of the shadows, if you want people to come out of illegality, you have to allow them to be absorbed completely within our social, economic, political fabric of our society.

So I think we're headed in the right direction. We've done it before. Ronald Reagan was the president. I'd love to see George Bush be the next president when this legislation is passed.

DOBBS: Well, with that kind of support for the president in reforming immigration, why do you not simply support his immigration reform plan, rather than offer up your own?

GUTIERREZ: Right. Well, I think what the president said -- he shared with you, he shared with me, he shared with America. He shared some principles. And he asked the Congress to do its work.

I think that's what we did, Mr. Dobbs. We went to the AFL/CIO. We went to community-based organizations, pro-immigrant groups across this country. We went to my Democratic leadership: Bob Menendez, our caucus chairman, Nancy Pelosi, the minority leader. We went to Senator Kennedy.

Finally, we have a bill in the House and in the Senate ready to move forward to end this vicious cycle of undocumented workers in this country and bring them out of the darkness.

If I really believed that you could take 10 million people and say, "Come out for three years, maybe for another three years, and then you have to go back to your country," that that would end undocumented workers in this country, I might give it a chance.

But I think that's totally unrealistic to expect people to give up their current status for three years on a visa and out of the country.

DOBBS: To give up their visa, versus 12 million illegal Americans, as we style them here, congressman.

The fact is that they're already here. There is a huge issue as to how we deal with that illegality, whether you call it undocumented or whatever. They are -- the fact of life is that somewhere between eight and 12 million, by whatever estimate, here.

How do we go about the very difficult issue that is part of your legislation to verify they've been here five years, to verify that they have been working? And how do we deal with the family amnesty aspect of your legislation?

GUTIERREZ: Well, I think we already did it in 1986. We sent up centers across the country. They have to come in. Mr. Dobbs, they go to church. So you'll have priests and ministers talking about and attesting to the fact that they have come to church.

You'll have employers that will have to fill out forms attesting to what years they worked and how many months. And we're going to -- so we've done it before. I don't think it's that difficult. And the onus is going to be on them.

But Mr. Dobbs, we've brought them forward. We're going to ask them, we're going to say, "Where do you live? Where do you have your savings account? Where are your children attending school? And by the way, we want your fingerprints. And this is not a joke. We want to check those fingerprints with Interpol. We want the CIA to take a look at them. We want the FBI. And we want you, undocumented worker, to pay the costs of all those things so we can guarantee who you are. So, they're going to come forward. They're going to give us this documentation at any cost attributed to this will be paid for by the undocumented worker. Mr. Dobbs, they're already paying thousands of dollars to get illegal documents and being exploited through legal service that really don't benefit them whatsoever.

DOBBS: Benefit them. I think one of the aspects is that we have to talk about, is the cost of illegal immigrants in terms of Social Services. And as you know, a recent report showing excessive immigration leads to lower wages for Native American citizens already working in this country, substantial. This is going to be a very difficult issue, and advancing it at this particular point, there are those who are saying, simply, that the Democrats are trying to win back the initiative taken by the president, and that it is an election year gambit.

How do you respond?

GUTIERREZ: Well, no. 1, we didn't just make this proposal. We had similar proposals before endorsed by AFL-CIO. Mr. Gephardt introduced one two years ago. It was not as broad -- not broad and sweeping as this proposal in that we couldn't get over the hump of the temporary worker program. Because if the Department of Labor estimate that is during the next 10 years we're going to create around 60 million low skill entry level jobs during the next 10 years, we are going create about 60 million low skill, what's going to happen is we're going to attract undocumented workers to this country to fulfill those jobs. What I want to do is say, let's set up standards.

Prevailing wage, (UNINTELLIGIBLE), collective bargaining agreements so that we can lift everybody and lift the wages of all workers and make those standards. And they go to court and make those prevail in the court, should they wish to exploit the workers. That would lift the wages of all the workers. Look, we already have a situation in which we have 8 to 12 million. Let's incorporate, lets tax them, lets make sure the employer sends their social security, they're withholding taxes. Let's make sure we benefit fully from their stay in this country.

Lastly, Mr. Dobbs, the Supreme Court said you have to educate every child, regardless of the country. So, we have to educate them. That's our legal system. The Supreme Court also said, if they're ill and going to an emergency room, the most expensive kind of medical service, we have to attend to them. We can't let them die. So given that, why not tax them, incorporate them and let then contribute as other undocumented workers have done in the past. DOBBS: Congressman, there are issues here, one including the fact the legislation you're advancing doesn't provide for considerable improvement in border security. Secondly, we have already seen in the first six months since the president, the past six months, since the president proposed his reform, an extraordinary explosion in the number of illegal aliens crossing the borders with Mexico.

Now, with further immigration proposals, such as yours, any thought as to what we're going to do about that in the short term because the fact is we have, if you will, a native population of illegal aliens that we're going to have to deal with sociologically, intelligently, rationally, but we also have a problem to the south. 90 percent of those apprehended are Mexican crossing that border. The Mexican government is not conducting itself, let us say, with great distinction on behalf of it's people. Wages are down. The government, as you may know, in many quarters of Mexico, as you know, corrupt. And the United States is the refuge of first resort. What are we going to do about that and how?

GUTIERREZ: I think the reason, Mr. Dobbs 90 percent of those apprehended is because 90 percent of the enforcement are on the border.

DOBBS: Congressman, I can't let you get away with that one.

GUTIERREZ: It's true.

DOBBS: I'm talking about the southern border. The fact of the matter is 90 percent of those crossing the Mexican-U.S. Border illegally are Mexican. It's not because of resources. It's because that's the number of people crossing.

GUTIERREZ: Remember, but remember, the majority of undocumented workers of those that are here illegally in the United States today did not cross that border. When we talk about apprehension...

DOBBS: Wait a minute. You and I have talked. I'm fond of you. I have great respect for you. But I can't really think -- I don't think that you would want me to say -- and I certainly don't want to hear you say -- that a number of people with a range of 8 to 12 million we know anything about them. That is the widest possible estimate. And then to characterize them further, it seems to me, highly speculative.

Would you agree with that me?

GUTIERREZ: I would agree it's speculative. We have to go on the studies we have now. One day Mr. Dobbs, invite me back and we'll talk about the studies that identify how it is people are undocumented in this country. Most of them actually, come through airports. Let's put it this way, millions of people come through airports on student visa. Why don't you give me this. Millions have come through airports, steamboats, legally into the United States, and than they over stay their student's visa, they're visitor visa, they're tourist visa. We know millions come that way.

DOBBS: I couldn't agree more. But what I said was, across the Mexican border, just to be clear.

GUTIERREZ: I agree that border is a problem. So why don't we rationalize and legalize their coming here?

DOBBS: Congressman, please come back soon. Because, we're going to talk about legalizing, rationalizing and coming up on...

GUTIERREZ: Let's talk about the Mexican border, because I think you and I have a lot to agree on.

DOBBS: I look forward to that. I look forward to disagreeing with you about a few things. Luis Gutierrez, Congressman from Illinois, thank you very much, sir.

That brings us to the subject of "Tonight's Poll." do you believe that race is playing a significant part over the debate over immigration reform, yes or no. Cast your vote at cnn.com/lou.

Still ahead, "The Politics of Truth." Ambassador Joe Wilson on his new book, the war in Iraq and what he calls the lies of the Bush administration.

A new vision for space. The president's controversial plans for a new era in space over the next half century. We will be joined by one of the country's leading astrophysicists and my friend Charles Liu. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: My next guest, ambassador Joe Wilson, a distinguishes former ambassador, who served this country in Africa and in Iraq. Ambassador Wilson, is also, of course, an outspoken critic of the intelligence used by the Bush administration to justify the onset of the war against Saddam Hussein. Wilson has just published a book. It's called "The Politics of Truth: Inside the Lies that Lead to War and Betrayed my Wife's CIA Identity"

I talked with Ambassador Wilson and began by asking for his assessment of the Bush administration strategy in Iraq.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JOSEPH WILSON, FORMER AMBASSADOR: When this administration decided the only way to deal with the disarmament issue was to unilaterally or with a small coterie of coalition partners invade, conquer and occupy, it led us into a disastrous situation. I believe the fruit of that is being harvested now, regrettably, and I hate it.

But -- but with respect to the Republican Party, I have a lot of respect for the two-party system, and I have a lot of friends who are Republicans. And I have voted Republican in the past.

DOBBS: Is -- given the past year's experience, given where we are today, is it your judgment that democracy in Iraq, democratization in the Middle East, is possible, a viable foreign policy for this country? WILSON: Bringing democratization at the barrel of an Abrams A1 tank or an M-16 is extraordinarily difficult. And even in the best of circumstances democratization is something that takes a lot of time and a lot of work and is not something that is brought to a society through the military.

DOBBS: What would you have the United States do now in Iraq?

WILSON: Anything I say about that now is likely going to be overtaken by events within the next 48 hours. I believe, as a former Reagan official and good friend of mine said just the other night, we are on the eve of a strategic catastrophe.

Now, if we don't have a plan already off the shelf which basically involves putting in massive amounts of military soldiers and material and heavy armor -- one of the big problems in this is not the lack of body armor. It is the lack of Bradley fighting vehicles and M-1 tanks to protect our forces out there.

You contrast what we did in Baghdad with what we did in Bosnia, where we took no battlefield deaths during the eight years that we did that, to the 700 deaths we're taking now.

But in order to recoup the situation, you've got to quell the insurgency. You've got to shock it, and at the same time you've got to demonstrate to the international community that you are serious. And the only way you can demonstrate that is through this massive new investment of military and material.

DOBBS: You are siding with Senator John Kerry. The president, Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, whose resignation you've called for, all are basically saying the same thing. But those are not wide separations between these two candidates for the highest office in the land.

WILSON: Well, you're right now. And in fact, with Secretary Rumsfeld, I actually called for his resignation on your show and was delighted to do so.

But the difference is, if you want to go back and take a look at this, Senator Kerry has been talking about the internationalization of this since the middle of last year, at a time when the administration, Don Rumsfeld included, were still very unilateralist in their perspective, not willing to share either the duties of the reconstruction or even take a hard look at how you encourage other nations to go in and participate in the national police force, in the reconstruction effort, in the static guard border patrol.

DOBBS: The politics of truth, the truth of politics. We are still months into the investigation into who in the administration leaked to Robert Novak the -- revealed the CIA identity of your wife.

Are you surprised at the length of time, first, that it has taken to -- to carry out this investigation?

WILSON: I am, because there are not hundreds of officials who sit at the nexus between foreign policy, i.e. have a national -- a secret security clearance, and politics, where they would have a political agenda that they might want to defend by exposing a CIA national security asset.

DOBBS: You initially put -- suggested strongly that Karl Rove was responsible. In your book, you suggest also Libby. You suggest Abrams. You have in your -- do you feel that you know who revealed her identity?

WILSON: Well, let me be very clear on this. In the book, what I try and do is bring together all those sort of little bits of information that have been circulating around Washington, many of which have been published. One just published last Saturday in the "New York Daily News," which says sources close to the grand jury fingers Libby and Rove for this.

Because I think it's been underreported. Journalists have told me, and I've put it in the book, that they've been intimidated by the White House. They're afraid of Rove -- they'll end up in Guantanamo, which is a metaphor for being -- having their access cut off. Or they'll lose their jobs if they print this.

DOBBS: Robert Novak, your personal feelings today on -- on Robert Novak for having published the information that he was given.

WILSON: As an officer in the government for 23 years, who swore on oath to uphold and defend the Constitution, I would defend his right to publish.

The questions I have for Novak are what did her name add to the story? Didn't add anything. And secondly, when you went to the CIA and the CIA told you not to print the story, not to print her name, what part of no didn't you understand?

Now with respect to another part of Novak's comportment, which I lay out in the book, he was telling strangers on the street, one of whom happened to know me -- I don't know how many other strangers he told. But he told a stranger who happened to know me two days after my article appeared that my wife worked for the CIA. This was before he had a second confirmation. This was before he was prepared to go to press with this.

I find that ethically challenged, to say the best -- to say the least. I find it repugnant. And frankly, to be doing that puts people unnecessarily at risk. Who knows who you might be talking to on the street? For that, I harbor no affection for Mr. Novak, to say the least.

DOBBS: The politics of truth. We are, in every respect in this country right now, challenged, both as reporters, as government officials, public servants, in really every quarter to both discern the truth, to report the truth, to understand it and to create policy around it.

WILSON: I have lived in dictatorships, from Franco's Spain to Saddam's Iraq and many African dictatorships in between. I have looked at what the founding fathers did in creating a system of government that was based on a healthy skepticism of the power of the executive branch.

And as a consequence, you have checks and balances in terms of institutions, the Congress and the Supreme Court, in rights and privileges that accrue to the press, including Novak's right to publish what he and his editors see fit, in order to provide another check on the power of the executive branch.

And then finally, the right of the individual to call his government to account. And that is a civic duty. When you know that your government has passed false information, particularly in a debate as important as war and peace, sending 130,000 kids to kill and to die for their country, it is imperative that that debate be held on a set of commonly accepted facts.

That was not the case here. I knew that not to be the case. I challenged my government to do that. That was a civic duty. That was not courageous or heroic. That was a civic duty.

We need more of that in a democracy, particularly when the institutional -- the institutions that are supposed to be providing these checks and balances seem to be temporarily enfeebled.

DOBBS: Ambassador Joe Wilson, thanks for being here.

WILSON: Good to be with you, Lou.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

DOBBS: When we continue, the future of our space program. Trying to go to the moon and to Mars but on a budget. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: In January, President Bush unveiled a bold new plan for a man exploration of space. Today however, the president's commission on the moon, Mars and beyond fielded difficult questions about the very future of the space program. Peter Viles reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We do not know where this journey will end yet we know this human beings are headed into the cosmos.

PETER VILES, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The president's plan to go back to the moon by 2020 and on to Mars without busting the budget means tough questions for NASA.

JOHN HIGGINBOTHAM, SPACEVEST: With the greatest respect, I don't understand why the space agency runs a cable channel. I don't get it, OK? I'm sure there's a lot of people at NASA right now. They're about ready to strangle me but...

VILES: But NASA's administrator essentially agreed, telling a presidential commission we've got to change.

SEAN O'KEEFE, NASA ADMINISTRATOR: There is no way that the present organizational structure and how we do business today will be the most appropriate way to go about doing this.

VILES: That commission headed by former Airforce secretary Pete Aldridge will recommend exactly how NASA should move beyond the space shuttle and the space station and go back to the moon and on to Mars while living on a budget.

PETE ALDRIDGE, PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION ON MOON, MARS, AND BEYOND: Over the next 30 years, NASA will spend $500 billion over that 30-year period for activities in space. With that kind of money, we should be able to do this mission.

VILES: One potential key to all of this, privatize more of the space program, perhaps launch services which, in theory, helps build a sustainable space industry in the private sector.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think we could be doing a lot more, a lot better, a lot quicker if we could focus on core missions that are government, spend off, privatize, outsource, anything that's not core to those missions.

VILES: There was a warning from Wall Street. Institutional investors are not explorers. In fact, they're somewhat timid. And with or without commercialization the government will have to lead the way in space.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

VILES: The Aldridge commission due to report its recommendations in June. Its mandate is sweeping to set the agenda for space exploration well into the 21st century.

DOBBS: Thank you very much.

Joining me now for more on the future of space exploration, astrophysicist Charles Liu of the National Museum of Natural History. Good to have you with us. The idea of commercialization versus federal funding here to drive NASA. Which is the better approach short and long term?

PROF. CHARLES LIU, ASTROPHYSICS, CUNY: In the short term, if you ignore basic research and funding, you're going to run out of money in this limited budget era before you get anywhere close to the moon or Mars. In the long term you should definitely bring in the private sector. But after the government, academia and non-profit organizations establish the basic research foundations that are so necessary to triple this magnitude.

DOBBS: Billions of dollars, Mars to the moon, the cosmos. On 15 to 20 billion a year, does that make sense?

LIU: Not possible under current technology. That's why basic research is so important. People don't realize that before we went to the moon on the Apollo missions there was over a decade of some of the most intensive basic astronomy space science astrophysics research in the history of humanity. If we're going to try to get somewhere like the moon or to Mars on a shoestring budget, we have to rely on the ability of our innovation and our discovery to find us cheaper ways of getting there in the long run.

DOBBS: Quickly, the Opportunity, Spirit rovers sending back fabulous data detailed and imagery, characterized what we've learned and how important the mission has been.

LIU: We are now almost 100 percent certain that Mars was once wet. Now as Spirit and Opportunity are rolling around and checking out the craters and the land forms on Mars, we're trying to figure out exactly where that life might have been.

DOBBS: For that we need a mission to Mars. Charles Liu, thank you very much.

LIU: My pleasure.

DOBBS: Still ahead. A warning that soaring energy prices will be painful not only for you and me but for the entire world. We'll have that and a great deal more still ahead. Please stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: Stocks a little higher on Wall Street today. The Dow up more than three points. The Nasdaq added almost 12. The S&P 500 up over 2. Energy prices soared again today. Christine Romans with the story -- Christine.

CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Crude oil prices above $39 a barrel. Highest since 1990. Gasoline futures for the seventh day in a row set a record high. We know those energy prices are squeezing middle class Americans. Now, the International Energy Agency says high oil prices will be painful for the entire world economy. In fact, the IEA says energy prices will stay high and may inflict substantial damage to countries that import oil. Lou, those higher energy prices have been a boom for the major oil companies in their profits. Indeed the quarter overall has been blockbuster. S&P 500 company earnings up 25 percent. Look at the stock market averages. They are barely higher for the year for the S&P 500. Lower for the Dow and the Nasdaq.

DOBBS: And it sounds like a lousy summer for gasoline prices.

ROMANS: A lousy summer. No end in sight for gasoline prices.

DOBBS: Still ahead, the results of tonight's poll. A reminder to check our website for our complete list of companies that to this point we have confirmed to be exporting America. CNN.com/lou. We continue in a moment. Please stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: The results of tonight's poll. 66 percent of you say race does play a significant part in the national debate over immigration reform. That's our broadcast. Join us tomorrow. Edward Peck, former U.S. ambassador to Iraq, will be here. Ambassador Peck says the United States should withdraw from Iraq and as soon as possible.

And we continue our special report on exporting America. More companies finding that outsourcing simply isn't worth the price. For all of us here good night from New York. "ANDERSON COOPER 360" is next.

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