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Lou Dobbs Tonight

Special Edition: Remember Ronald Reagan

Aired June 06, 2004 - 18:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RONALD REAGAN: Government does nothing as well or as economically as the private sector of the economy.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I, Ronald Reagan, do solemnly swear.

REAGAN: I, Ronald Reagan, do solemnly swear.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That I will faithfully execute the office of president of the United States.

REAGAN: That I will faithfully execute the office of president of the United States.

Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall.

My friends, we did it. We weren't just marking time. We made a difference. We made the city stronger, we made the city freer. And, we left it in good hands. All in all, not bad. Not bad at all. And so, good-bye, God bless you, and God bless the United States of America.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: This is a special edition of LOU DOBBS TONIGHT, for Sunday, June 6. Remembering Ronald Reagan. Here now, Lou Dobbs.

LOU DOBBS, HOST: Good evening. Tonight, Ronald Reagan, a nation mourning, a life tonight remembered.

President Reagan restored Americans' faith in their country by defeating Soviet communism. Reagan's political legacy continues to shape the contest between Republicans and Democrats in this country. And today, President Reagan's family announced details of the funeral arrangements for the former president.

The funeral will be held Friday morning at the National Cathedral in Washington. David Mattingly reports now from the Reagan Library in Simi Valley, California -- David.

DAVID MATTINGLY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, the hills surrounding the Reagan Presidential Library are reminiscent of a classic cowboy movie. You throw in a view of the Pacific Ocean, and it's no wonder that the Reagans chose this spot not only for their library but also for their final resting place. So as in this upcoming week, as the nation says good-bye to a popular former president, staff at the Reagan Library's preparing for a week of mourning that begins and ends right here.

Starting tomorrow at noon, the public will be allowed to view the closed presidential casket. That continues through Tuesday. On Wednesday, the casket is in Washington for ceremonies and public viewing in the Capitol Rotunda. That continues through Thursday.

Friday begins with funeral services at the National Cathedral. The casket will then make one final flight cross country where former President Ronald Reagan will be buried in ceremonies open only to friends and family, who have had to endure so much over the last 10 years as the former president suffered with Alzheimer's.

The casket will remain closed, as we said, in the public -- in the public viewings, and the public here will be greeted when they arrive by a large bronze statue of the former president wearing cowboy gear. It is a very complimentary image of the former president, smiling, looking very rough and tumble. An image that will no doubt endure and remain very fond in the hearts of many people who come up here -- Lou.

DOBBS: Thank you very much. We turn now to President Bush, who today described President Reagan as a courageous leader who served the cause of freedom. President Bush made his remarks at a ceremony in France, commemorating the 60th anniversary of the D-Day landings. Senior White House correspondent John King reports from Paris -- John.

JOHN KING, CNN SR. WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Lou, the commemoration already a moving event, all the more so because of the death of Ronald Reagan back in the United States. Mr. Bush was here in Paris last night when he received the word of Mr. Reagan's tragic death. Today, he did go to Normandy, to the U.S. military cemetery near the beaches of Normandy. Mr. Bush walking to the ceremonies there, accompanied by the French President Jacques Chirac. Mr. Bush there of course to thank the soldiers, those who are buried at the military cemetery, those veterans who came for these ceremonies, but at the very top of his remarks, Mr. Bush also paying tribute to an American president who walked that same hallowed ground 20 years ago.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Twenty summers ago, another American president came here to Normandy to pay tribute to the men of D-Day. He was a courageous man himself and a gallant leader in the cause of freedom. And today, we honor the memory of Ronald Reagan.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: At the ceremonies here today, Mr. Bush coming into contact with many of the world leaders who will come to the United States in the days ahead for the annual meeting of the group of eight, the G-8 summit in Sea Ilsnad (ph), Georgia. Mr. Bush seeing the president of France, of course. The prime minister of Britain, the chancellor of Germany. The Russian President Vladimir Putin. Other Europeans leaders on hand too, in the coming days, many of them will participate in the G-8 summit. Many of them then to remain in the Washington for the Ronald Reagan funeral at the National Cathedral in Washington.

Mr. Bush recalled that speech by Ronald Reagan 20 years ago. It was indeed vintage Reagan. He talked of his desire to make peace with the Soviet Union, rid the world of nuclear arms, but he also said the alliance needed to stand up against communism. At that time, he referred to the, quote, "liberated countries lost" because of Soviet occupation. Many of the leaders of those now free countries in Eastern Europe will be at Ronald Reagan's funeral on Friday, as this president, Mr. Reagan, gets so much credit, Lou, as you know, for the fall of Soviet communism -- Lou.

DOBBS: John, thank you very much.

President Reagan was an unrelenting opponent of communism and a forceful advocate of freedom for oppressed people around the world. The Reagan doctrine was an uncompromising policy to win a global struggle between good and evil. Kitty Pilgrim reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KITTY PILGRIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Ronald Reagan hated communism. His Reagan doctrine set a new direction, urging the country to abandon illusions about detente with the Soviet Union.

REAGAN: I urge you to beware of the temptation of pride, the temptation of blithely declaring yourselves above it all and label both sides equally at fault. To ignore the facts of history and the aggressive impulses of an evil empire.

PILGRIM: During the Reagan years, defense spending accelerated and peaked in 1986, forcing the Soviet Union to the negotiating table. In 1983, Reagan proposed a technological shield to protect the country from nuclear attack. The strategic defense initiative, SDI.

LEE EDWARDS, HERITAGE FOUNDATION: We know from statements made by the Soviets themselves, after it was all over, that this made them realize that they could not keep up with us and our superior technology. That the SDI, in effect, made their ICBMs ineffective and almost useless. So SDI was really at the heart of the Reagan doctrine.

PILGRIM: Appearances of strength also mattered for Reagan. Meeting Soviet President Mikhail Gorbachev, Reagan stood vigorously in a suit jacket as the communist leader was bundled up. Reagan rhetoric was also a foreign policy weapon. He literally stood at the symbolic brink of the communist empire, the Berlin Wall and challenged.

REAGAN: Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall.

PILGRIM: Margaret Thatcher gave him the ultimate credit. "Ronald Reagan had a higher claim than any other leader to have won the Cold War for liberty, and he did it without a shot being fired." A damaging foreign policy event was the controversial Iran-Contra affair. In 1986, it was revealed the U.S. was illegally supplying assistance to the Nicaraguan Contra rebels, from the proceeds of sales of arms to Iran. Both illegal activities.

Reagan personally claimed he had not been informed of the activities.

Reagan also had his dark days of terrorism. In 1983, the bombing of a U.S. embassy in Beirut killed 63 people.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PILGRIM: It's remarkable that a foreign policy based on such military spending and show of strength resulted in such a relatively light use of force. The Reagan doctrine is credited with bringing a new era of peace without expending many bullets -- Lou.

DOBBS: Kitty, thank you very much.

Coming up next, I'll be talking with Bernard Shaw, who anchored CNN's coverage of the Reagan years. We'll be talking about President Reagan's remarkable career, a career that launched a political and economic revolution that changed not only the United States but the world.

Stay with us.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REAGAN: What kind of people will we be 40 years from today? May we answer, free people. Worthy of freedom. And firm in the conviction that freedom is not the sole prerogative of a chosen few, but the universal right of all God's children. This is the universal declaration of human rights set forth in 1948, and this is the affirming flame the United States has held high to a watching world. We champion freedom not only because it is practical and beneficial, but because it is morally right and just.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: My next guest is a former colleague, veteran journalist who anchored CNN's coverage of the Reagan presidency from the beginning. Former CNN anchor Bernard Shaw reported on the 1980 Republican convention, the campaign, the assassination attempt on the president, the historic nuclear arms summits with Mikhail Gorbachev, and all of the momentous events of the Reagan presidency. Bernard Shaw joins us from Washington. Good to have you here, Bernie.

BERNARD SHAW, FORMER CNN ANCHOR: Good to always be with you, Lou.

DOBBS: Bernie, as we look back on 1980, a remarkable year in nearly every aspect. The campaign, the convention. What strikes you most about the public view, the perception of Ronald Reagan in the early days of that campaign?

SHAW: Well, Lou, here in Washington, in retrospect, you realize that Ronald Wilson Reagan was the political calm before the storm here in Washington.

Take you back to that period in the country. What did we have? We have double digit inflation. Interest rates were double digit. Americans were held hostage in the U.S. embassy in Tehran. And this man raised his right hand as chief justice Warren Burger administered the oath of office, and we recall in CNN's live coverage that day, we split the screen into a quad. Four different sections, in which we showed this man becoming the 40th president of the United States, and hostages, Americans being released after 444 days. And that sort of set the tone. One of expectancy, one of relief, one of apprehension. And of course, if you were a Democrat in this town, they had to stand by.

DOBBS: And it was a remarkable day for all of that and for what was to come. Shortly in a matter of just over two months, President Reagan was shot. And Bernie, I can still remember vividly our coverage of that assassination attempt. Your anchoring of our coverage. Your thoughts as you go back to that day?

SHAW: Well, I felt as if I had no bottom to my stomach. I had anchored our live coverage of the president addressing the AFL-CIO at the Washington Hilton Hotel. Summed up what he said and threw it back to the Atlanta anchor, and I tilted back in my anchor chair, and I heard Bill Hansel (ph), who was on our desk with Sissy Baker (ph), the daughter of former Tennessee Senator Howard Baker, they were on the assignment desk and I could hear commotion. And I said, what's going on? And Bill Hansel (ph) said, they're shooting at your president. And I said, that's not very funny. He said, I'm serious. Listen.

He turned up the audio, and you could hear police, Secret Service people, the confusion. I said, tell Atlanta to get right back to us. And we stayed on the air for the next 20 hours and the unending coverage. It was here as we see Jim Brady, the president's press secretary, the police officers, some Secret Service agents on the sidewalk, that there was speculation about Jim Brady being dead.

He was not dead. And we never reported the fact that he had died. What we didn't know was that the president had been hit and that his wounds were very, very serious. And of course, there was confusion at Washington Hospital Center where the president was taken -- and Lyn Nofziger, you remember, he went down there with the open collared shirt and tried to bring some order to the chaos down there.

DOBBS: You know, I -- Bernie, like so many of us who covered the events of the '80s, and I think most Americans remember the president with remarkable humor at that grave moment, saying of his medical care at the hospital, turning and saying, "I hope all you doctors are Republicans."

SHAW: And then, he also said that when he first saw Nancy Reagan when she rushed to the hospital, "honey, I forgot to duck." DOBBS: This man, as we look over his career, as we'll be doing for some days and nights here, it is truly remarkable what he achieved with Gorbachev. You covered all of those summits. At what point did you think something new was at work between the United States and the Soviet Union?

SHAW: The moment these two powerful leaders looked at their staffs and said, get lost. It was Geneva, 1985. There was apprehension about whether these men would come together. This is Reykjavik right now, but in the '85 summit, these two leaders decided we need to spend some time alone. What did they do? They went out to the boat house. That was that famous scene of Gorbachev and Reagan in front of the fireplace, and they spent precious time. That's when they really became to know each other. And that's where they bonded in a sense. That was the beginning of something very, very important to this planet.

DOBBS: Very important, indeed. And the Soviet Union would last really only another effectively five years. Marxism-Leninism, a competing ideology to free enterprise, democracy would collapse. But none of that was in prospect when Ronald Reagan was campaigning and when he was elected. He was considered by much of the national media, many if not most of the American people to be a B-movie actor, a California governor, who was an arch conservative. A John Birch conservative, with an itchy trigger finger, about to be placed on the nuclear arsenal. How quickly did you see that in covering him change?

SHAW: It took time. I think the beginning of the Reagan- Gorbachev summits was the forerunner, the prelude if you will to a more serious addressing of and reckoning with this leader here in this beige suit here in the cabinet room as he conducts this meeting. Howard Baker, now ambassador to the -- to Japan there to his left.

I think it was there that we began to see that.

One of the things I noticed in all of the coverage that we've had of this former president, this late president and what we'll see in coming days is that it seems that to me this man's humanity is being understated. The twinkle in the eye. The warm smile.

I think of two things. Mr. Reagan and Mrs. Reagan gave out my wife and I an invitation -- a standing invitation to visit them at their house in Bel Air. And we did about, two years afterwards. We went out. Coffee and tea in the afternoon at the Reagans.

I asked Mrs. Reagan for some decaf coffee, and Linda, the president said, would you like -- she said, some ice water? Mrs. Reagan was pouring me a cup of coffee. The president got up, left the room. Two minutes later, I hear him behind me, and I turn around and here's Ronald Reagan with a glass of cold ice water in one hand and a white linen napkin in the other hand. Puts the napkin down. Glass of water down. Here you are.

And he sits down. And we talk for about 45 minutes. And, Lou, normally the reporter in you would have you trying to memorize quotes. None of that. It was just a conversation. Afterwards, he took us on a tour of the house. He showed us his study. And Mrs. Reagan said, this is where we watched you on "INSIDE POLITICS" every day.

DOBBS: Well, Bernie, we thank you for sharing some of the memories, your thoughts about the Reagan era. And as always...

SHAW: Good to be with you.

DOBBS: Good to be with you. My good colleague for almost two decades and good friend. Bernard Shaw.

When we continue, Ronald Reagan rebuilt this country's national confidence and revived the American economy, but at significant cost. We'll take a closer, much closer look at Reaganomics, the Teflon President, and more, in just a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: President Reagan launched an economic revolution that defeated inflation and revived the economy after a decade of slow or no growth. President Reagan did it with a brand of economic policy that came to be and to this day still bears the name Reaganomics. Peter Viles reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

REAGAN: Let me ask you something. Are you better off than you were four years ago?

PETER VILES, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Most Americans were not. The crime rate then was 15 percent. The misery index -- inflation plus unemployment -- was above 20 percent. The stock market had gone nowhere except down for 15 years.

BRUCE BARLETT, NATIONAL CENTER FOR POLICY ANALYSIS: The magnitude of the problem was so great that there were a great many, you know, responsible economists who thought we would have to go through something like the equivalent of another Great Depression.

VILES: Reagan's plan was optimistic, bold and widely ridiculed. George Bush called it voodoo economics. It was to cut taxes, increase defense spending, starve the rest of the government, and somehow balance the budget.

REAGAN: In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem. Government is the problem.

VILES: He convinced Congress to cut taxes and to stay the course during the recession of 1982, and ultimately did what Presidents Nixon, Ford and Carter could not. He beat inflation. On his watch, it fell from 12.5 percent to 4.6. The jobless rate fell to 5.4 percent. The economy added 16 million new jobs. The stock market rallied, even after that 1987 crash. It gained 147 percent in the Reagan era.

STEVE MOORE, CLUB FOR GROWTH: The tragedy, really is that Ronald Reagan, arguably the most important economist of the 20th century, never won the Nobel Prize in economics, but when you think about it, this is a man who really had as profound an impact on economics as any of the economists, whether you're talking about Milton Friedman or John Maynard Keynes.

VILES: His economic success was not total. He did never did balance the budget. The deficit widened.

WALTER MONDALE, FORMER PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Some of the strategies that were used during this administration led to enormous deficits, led to the some of the things we're seeing again today, which can lead to higher interest rates, distorted value of the dollar that hurts us in trade.

VILES: His influence lives on. It was Reagan who made Alan Greenspan Fed chairman, who dealt labor unions a lasting defeat by firing striking air traffic controllers, whose free market policies, still alive in Washington, had their roots in a Jeffersonian ideal. The government is best which governs least.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

VILES: Reaganomics did more than revive the American economy, it restored American confidence. It did help to win the Cold War, and gave us an era of peace and prosperity that few could have imagined in 1980, Lou.

DOBBS: Absolutely. Pete, thanks very much. Peter Viles.

For more now on the legacy of Reaganomics, the president of -- the presidency of Ronald Reagan, we're joined by three of this country's top journalists, each of whom had an opportunity to cover the Reagan presidency.

In Washington, Karen Tumulty, national political editor, "Time" magazine. Roger Simon, political editor, "U.S. News & World Report," and here in New York, Rik Kirkland, managing editor, "Fortune" magazine. Thank you all for being here.

Rik, let me begin with you on Reaganomics and the teflon presidency. There are many younger people watching all of this, of course, who think that when you say teflon, that means Clinton. But Reagan was the original teflon president.

RIK KIRKLAND, FORTUNE MAGAZINE: He was. The thing about Reaganomics, Lou, that I find fascinating is you look at it in the context of the time as a political policy -- as a policy -- it was the tonic the country needed. As Peter's segment suggested, inflation was out of control. Taxes were 70 percent on earned income, 70 percent. And government hadn't stopped growing since World War II.

So, it really worked and it restored confidence. My problem with it or the problem with it is the way it's hardened into a kind of almost the latest orthodoxy that cutting taxes is the only policy for any problem, and that founders on one thing, that Reagan never solved either, which was he never was able to stop the spending problems -- the side of things, and never was able to shrink the size of government. And that remains the problem of Reaganomics today. DOBBS: And the twin deficits that reached records into more than tripling of the national debt under Ronald Reagan.

KIRKLAND: Right.

DOBBS: Karen, your thoughts on the legacy of Ronald Reagan?

KAREN TUMULTY, TIME MAGAZINE: Well, certainly, his economic policies. For a while there, it didn't look for sure that they were going to work. Remember 1982, there was a terrible recession. Republicans lost in droves in those midterm elections. But the economy had turned around enough for Ronald Reagan to win in a landslide in 1984.

And then he kept pushing. Don't forget in his second term, a time when most presidents have to scale back their ambitions, he actually dismantled the tax code and essentially, with a Democratic Congress, built it from the ground up all over again.

DOBBS: Roger, there's an impression easily gained in this country to this day that Ronald Reagan was a divider, not an uniter, to quote some relatively more recent rhetoric on presidents, but the fact is, as Karen pointed out, he accomplished a great deal in partnership with Democrats, didn't he?

ROGER SIMON, U.S. NEWS & WORLD REPORT: Oh, absolutely. His achievements in his first year, his legislative agenda was I think, unequaled, except perhaps by the FDR's first 100 days, and maybe surpassed that.

Ronald Reagan certainly got his legislative program through a Congress that still in his first term had a Democratic House of Representatives.

He knew how to work with Congress, because he had seen how badly Jimmy Carter's administration had worked with Congress, and his aides would joke how they used to have to lasso him to keep him off Capitol Hill. Even though he had ran against Washington in his campaign, he stopped bashing Washington as a force once he got there, and was quite happy to work with Congress.

TUMULTY: Yeah. In fact, he and Tip O'Neill would fight all day in the business hours and would actually have a drink together at the White House after hours. That is the sort of thing you just couldn't imagine happening between top Democrats and top Republicans in Washington today.

DOBBS: And Rik, the legacy economically, as you suggest, smaller government, but the fact is government grew. So did the public debt, trade deficits, budget deficits. And today, we're with a Republican president who has accelerated the trend even further.

KIRKLAND: So I think the challenge is we have to figure out -- we have to honor what Reaganomics did, which was extraordinary, it was remarkable to think about the way this country was when we were young pups starting out in this business and what Reagan did to change that. But it isn't going to work, given the problems we face today, to just say we are going to cut taxes and hope we can starve the government of what it needs, because no one seems to be seriously debating how to shrink the size of government.

DOBBS: To shrink the size of government, when there's so much being asked of government seems difficult, and the ugly dirty little secret of the Reagan presidency is he didn't accomplish everything that he meant to do, either. He not only used the policies of Milton Friedman to build up the bulwark of his philosophy, but he was also a Keynesian in terms of the stimulation that was going on in this economy. Karen, your thoughts?

TUMULTY: Well, that's true. And, of course, the result of that was a gigantic deficit that it took a long time to get rid of. But back in those days, the deficit numbers just were jaw dropping. Now they almost look like pocket change.

DOBBS: Roger, your thoughts?

SIMON: Well, as you say, one of the dirt little secrets is Reaganomics doesn't work unless your cutbacks in government programs is as severe as your tax cuts. And can only also offset which was a -- what was a huge increase in the military budget, 27 percent over three years. He never could balance out one with the other; that's why the deficit went from one trillion to three trillion.

DOBBS: And of course, with all of that, I think few people would argue that the price was exorbitant for defeating Marxism-Leninism and the collapse of the Soviet Union, but where some all these years later, where's that peace dividend, Rik Kirkland?

KIRKLAND: The peace dividend, we spent it during the '90s. It was part of why the government got smaller under Clinton, and it's gone. Now we have a war on terror, it's going to be expensive, and the world has moved on.

DOBBS: And hopefully, we haven't moved beyond at least the optimism that was also one of Ronald Reagan's definite legacies.

Karen Tumulty, Roger Simon, Rik Kirkland, thank you all for being here.

When we continue, I'll be talking with one of the most highly regarded historians about President Reagan, his politics, and of course, his legacy. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: My next guest is the author of the book "Ronald Reagan: The Politics of Symbolism." Presidential historian Robert Dalleck says President Reagan restored a sense of hope to the office of president and he joins me tonight from Washington. Bob, good to have you with us.

ROBERT DALLEK, PRESIDENTIAL HISTORIAN: Thanks, Lou. Nice to be with you. DOBBS: There is, and I would like to know first as a historian, a scholar, an American, your feelings tonight, because I find myself, of course, mourning the passing of an American president.

DALLEK: Yes.

But at the same time, I feel such a sense of optimism that is continuing from his administration. That -- I think is an interesting mixture of emotions.

DALLEK: I think you put your fingers on something so important, Lou. I've been watching television and listening to the radio and reading the stories in the newspapers and what I'm struck by is that there is, of course, a sense of loss, but when somebody of the age of 93 passes it is not a sense of the tragic, but what I'm most struck by is how inspirited the country in a sense feels.

They recaptured the feeling that Reagan passed along to them in the 1980s. A sense that politics has been so unpleasant in recent years, there's been so much acrimony, so much division, a kind of sharpness to it and, Reagan, I think, makes people feel better again about politics. I think that's what he did in the 1980s.

It is ironic, I feel, someone that preached government is the problem, that he made people feel much better about the presidency and about government by the end of his eight years in office.

DOBBS: And it is easy for people to forget he was a devisive figure, certainly in the 1976 presidential primary, the 1980. There was an electric charge around his conservativism. There were people that considered him point blank in the national media, at least, to be insufficient character, lacking capacity to be president, mostly because of the of the highly conservative ideology. And then to look at the fact eight years later, he leaves the office with the highest approval rating of any president since FDR. Your thoughts?

DALLEK: Well, you know, Lou, he was much more pragmatic, much more flexible than the campaign of 1980 suggested, or his earlier career, even, as governor of California might have suggested. You know, Herbert Hoover said of Franklin Roosevelt in 1932, he's a chameleon on plaid. And Roosevelt wore that badge proudly.

And I think Reagan would have found that appealing, as well, because what he understood is politics is something that you have to be realistic in your response to the changing conditions you confront. And I think that was a real strength of his. And, he was able to shift and maneuver. And he came into office talking about the evil empire, the Soviet Union, and his second term was devoted to all these negotiations and four summit conferences with Mikhail Gorbachev and quite a shift away from 1980 or 1981.

DOBBS: There is a sense, too, that I have taken from some historians that is somewhat, at least to me, revisionist talking about the Reagan era in which the result was the defeat of Marxist Leninism and the clash of the Soviet Union as being some sort of an accident of history and not a conscious strategy on the part of Ronald Reagan. The fact is, he predicted in 1980 that the Soviet Union would end up on the ash heap of history, did he not?

DALLEK: He did. He did. But, you know, Lou, I think, too some say Ronald Reagan won the Cold War is a bit too simplistic. You know, it was a long trail of winding going back to Harry Truman and George Cannon who put in place the containment doctrine, the deterent strategy.

And Reagan, though, had the wisdom to see there was an opportunity in negotiations with Gorbachev to really knock down Communism. To demonstrate to the Russian people themselves. Remember his last trip to Moscow, the last summit conference in Moscow, when he spoke to the Russian people about freedom.

And, so I think he was someone who did move the Cold War along toward a conclusion. And did help in the destruction of the Soviet Communism, but I wouldn't go so far as to say, well, he was the only one that did it, or he won the Cold War. And I think, in oh, 50 years from now, historians will him credit for his achievement, but they'll put it into a long range context.

DOBBS: He also destroyed PATCO, the air traffic controllers. And as history sweeps its pendulum, he did lasting damage to collective bargaining and labor organizations in this country. How will he be remembered in that regard?

DALLEK: Well I think there will be a critical side. You know, historians will get into the documentary record in the next 15, 20 years and they won't be uncritical. They'll see plenty to complain about, including his economic policies and the fact that he piled up such extraordinary debt during his -- what was it, a tripling of the national debt in his eight years in office.

But I think what in part serves him is the fact that he did serving eight years and, you know, Lou there have been only 15 out of all 43 presidents who were elected to a second term or more. The one being Franklin Roosevelt did more. And there were only 12 who served eight years in office. And so, he stands, in a sense in the front rank of long serving presidents and he will be remembered as an important president. And someone who had a significant impact on the country.

DOBBS: And ranking quickly. We have just seconds, rank for us, if you will, President Reagan among the 20th Century presidents.

DALLEK: Yes. Well, above average. Maybe, maybe down the road they'll see him as near great, but above average.

DOBBS: Robert DAllek, thanks for being with us.

DALLEK: My pleasure.

DOBBS: When we continue, we continue our look at the life of Ronald Reagan. And before going to Washington, Ronald Reagan won fame and began his political career in California, of course. We'll be taking a look at the Reagan California years next. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: Ronald Reagan's first elective office was for president: the presidency of the Screen Actors' Guild in Hollywood. California was a formative location for Reagan, from his personal life to his political career. Casey Wian the story from Los Angeles.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Like so many stars with their eyes, Ronald Reagan came to Hollywood in the 1930s. He made his name in 50 movies as the Gipper, as the side kick to an infamous chink named Bonzo and then in the upstart medium of television. He spent eight years as a corporate pitchman for General Electric.

R. REAGAN: That's part of living better electrically.

JOHNNY GRANT, CHMN. HOLLYWOOD WALL OF FAME: He was a better actor than most people gave him credit for. He was a great ambassador for the industry. He just knew the right thing to say at the right time.

WIAN: During the 1940s, Reagan became a staunch anti-communist, naming names of suspected Hollywood sympathizer groups, while defending colleagues accused of Communist party membership. As president of the Screen Actors' Guild, he led a strike seeking pay for film actors whose work aired on television.

R. REAGAN: I have spent most of my life as a Democrat.

WIAN: In 1964, he tried to rescue Barry Goldwater's presidential campaign with a speech that would define his political agenda.

R. REAGAN: Government does nothing as well or as economically as the private sector of the economy.

STU SPENCER, REAGAN POLITICAL CONSULTANT: That was sort of the basis of what we called "the speech." From there on out, I mean, he'd tinker with it, change it and do this sort of thing, but the basic premises of that speech were the ones he used all the way through his career.

WIAN: Two years later, Reagan's transformation to politician was complete.

R. REAGAN: As of now, I am a candidate seeking the Republican nomination for governor.

WIAN: He won by a million votes over two term incumbent Democrat Pat Brown, but he took charge of a state still reeling from race riots and about to become the center of campus protests over the Vietnam War, even state lawmakers in Reagan's own party say he and his cabinet were unprepared.

WILLIAM BAGLEY, FRM. CALIF. STATE LEGISLATOR: You can say government ought to be smaller, you can say there ought to be less taxes and less this and that, but my good god, you ought to know what the hell was going on and they didn't.

WIAN: They learned, passing welfare reforms and slowing the growth of state government.

EDWIN MEESE, REAGAN CABINET MEMBER: I think Ronald Reagan's greatest accomplishment as governor of California, first of all, was to preside over the state, to govern the state at a very difficult time. This was during the Vietnam War. There was a lot of problems on the campuses. It was a time of considerable turmoil in the cities and it was to govern the state with a fair, but at the same time, a firm hand.

WIAN: Even after he was elected president, Reagan often returned to his ranch near Santa Barbara. And he retired to Bel Air, just a short distance from Hollywood, where his California journey began.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WIAN: Reagan's legacy in California continues to this day. Another actor turned governor Arnold Schwarzenegger says even before he was a U.S. citizen, he campaigned for Reagan, handing out leaflets and making phone calls. And the current governor's ability to charm is often compared to Ronald Reagan's -- Lou.

DOBBS: He's off to a good beginning at the very least. Casey Wian, thank you very much.

I just a moment, I'll be talking with a former Reagan policy adviser and biographer about President Reagan's permanent impact on the country and the world.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: My next guest served as domestic policy analyst under President Reagan, says even those who served in the Reagan White House didn't believe the president could accomplish all that he did.

Today, Dinesh D'Souza he says this nation owes President Reagan an immense debt. Donesh is the author of "Ronald Reagan: How An Ordinary Man Became An Extraordinary Leader." And he joins us tonight from Milwakee, Wisconsin. Dinesh, good to have you here. We just heard historian Robert Dallek say above average. Give us your place in history.

DINESH D'SOUZA, FRM. REAGAN POLICY ANALYST: I think that there is among contemporary historians a prejudice against Reagan and the reason is simple: on issue after issue from the Soviet Union to taxes to inflation, the historians were wrong and Reagan was right.

So, I think as time passes, the prejudice will pass as well. I think Reagan will be seen as one of America's great presidents. I wouldn't put him in the league as Lincoln or Washington, but in the next tier, with Teddy Roosevelt and Franklin Roosevelt, and perhaps Thomas Jefferson. So, I would put him in very elite company.

DOBBS: You have said, however, when you joined the White House, your enthusiasm and confidence in President Reagan was ebbing.

D'SOUZA: Well, we were fooled by Reagan's style. You know, Reagan was a jovial, whimsical fellow. Even on serious issues, he had a jovial side. When he wanted to cut taxes dramatically and raise defense spending, not just the Democrats, but his own aides said, you are going to get a big deficit. And Reagan said, well, he said, I think the deficit is big enough to look at itself.

So when you hear this kind of almost joking attitude, you think that maybe the guy is not as scholarly, not as serious as you would like. But I think as time passed we realized that Reagan had his eye on the larger ball and he was able to accomplish many of the spectacular things that he promised, even though at the time it seemed very unlikely.

DOBBS: And how much, in your judgment, of the optimism that Reagan brought, you mentioned the jovialty, his sense of humor, but a sense of optimism, how much of that has endured from his presidency to this day?

D'SOUZA: I think his optimism, not on inspired a generation of young people in the '80s, a whole bunch of us who were aiming at business school or law school or in college at the time changed careers and moved towards journalism and politics. So he inspired a whole generation. But I think even today conservatives take heart from Reaganism and from his forward looking conservativism very different from the conservativism of the past.

DOBBS: And conservativism as it is -- I guess practiced would be the word today, markedly different from that of the president, President Reagan?

D'SOUZA: I wouldn't say that. I think that President Bush has some of the qualities of Reagan. He's got that deep confidence in his beliefs. He sees the world in terms of the clear colors of right and wrong as Reagan did. He's a man of action as Reagan was.

I think if there's one difference, the one area in which I missed Reagan, is that Reagan backed up the deeds with words. He was truly the great communicator the. Not just in the way he said things, but that he made the arguments against the evil empire and so on. I would like to see Bush do more of that.

DOBBS: Thank you very much. Dinesh D'Souza, we thank you for being here.

Defining a vision of a better America was part of what gave Ronald Reagan the nickname "the Great Communicator." When we continue, why so much of the legacy is remembered with great humor. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: President Reagan's trademark sense of humor and unique ability to connect with ordinary people earned him the title of "The Great Communicator." It also earned him the votes of millions of Democrats, who came to be known as Reagan Democrats. But above all, President Reagan inspired generations of Americans to trust and to respect the office of the president. Bill Tucker reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BILL TUCKER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It takes a special politician to get someone to cross political lines.

JIMMY CARTER, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I probably know as well as anybody what a formidable communicator and campaigner President Reagan was. It was because of him, that I was involuntarily retired from his last job in November of 1980.

TUCKER: And in the process, Reagan did more than just win elections.

SEN. JOHN MCCAIN, (R) ARIZONA: He restored our confidence in our faith in the greatness and the future of this nation.

TUCKER: He did that simply by reminding us.

R. REAGAN: Those that say we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look. You can see heroes every day going in and out of factory gates. Others a handful in number, produce enough food to feed all of us and then the world beyond.

TUCKER: He was always quick with a quip, such as during the 1984 campaign debates with Walter Mondale.

R. REAGAN: I will not make age an issue of this campaign. I will not exploit for political purposes my opponent's youth and inexperience.

TUCKER: When he was shot, just 70 days after taking office, he said to his doctors in the hospital, I hope you're all Republicans.

GEORGE. H.W. BUSH, FRM. PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: He had a wonderful way to disagree with him. He'd have leaders in Congress or foreign leaders that he disagree with and never disagreeable about it himself. He was never mean spirited.

TUCKER: And he wasn't afraid to let us see that kindness does mix with resolve.

R. REAGAN: I want to say something to the school children of America who are watching the live coverage of the shuttle's takeoff. I know it's hard to understand, but sometimes painful things like this happen. It's all part of the process of exploration and discovery. It's all part of taking a chance and expanding man's horizons. Future doesn't belong to the faint hearted. It belongs to the brave.

TUCKER: Perhaps it's down to this, President Reagan was trusted by millions because he saw in them a greatness. As he reminded us in the farewell address after eight years in office.

R. REAGAN: I want a nickname, the Great Communicator. But I never thought it was my style or the words I used that made a difference, it was the content. I wasn't a great communicator. But I communicated great things. And they didn't spring full bloom from my brow, they came from the heart of a great nation, from our experience, our wisdom and our belief in the principles that have guided us for 2 centuries.

TUCKER: Bill Tucker, CNN.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

DOBBS: Thank you for joining us tonight as a nation mourns and we remember a live, of Ronald Reagan. For all of us here, good night from New York. "ANDERSON COOPER 360" is next.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com


Aired June 6, 2004 - 18:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RONALD REAGAN: Government does nothing as well or as economically as the private sector of the economy.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I, Ronald Reagan, do solemnly swear.

REAGAN: I, Ronald Reagan, do solemnly swear.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That I will faithfully execute the office of president of the United States.

REAGAN: That I will faithfully execute the office of president of the United States.

Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall.

My friends, we did it. We weren't just marking time. We made a difference. We made the city stronger, we made the city freer. And, we left it in good hands. All in all, not bad. Not bad at all. And so, good-bye, God bless you, and God bless the United States of America.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: This is a special edition of LOU DOBBS TONIGHT, for Sunday, June 6. Remembering Ronald Reagan. Here now, Lou Dobbs.

LOU DOBBS, HOST: Good evening. Tonight, Ronald Reagan, a nation mourning, a life tonight remembered.

President Reagan restored Americans' faith in their country by defeating Soviet communism. Reagan's political legacy continues to shape the contest between Republicans and Democrats in this country. And today, President Reagan's family announced details of the funeral arrangements for the former president.

The funeral will be held Friday morning at the National Cathedral in Washington. David Mattingly reports now from the Reagan Library in Simi Valley, California -- David.

DAVID MATTINGLY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, the hills surrounding the Reagan Presidential Library are reminiscent of a classic cowboy movie. You throw in a view of the Pacific Ocean, and it's no wonder that the Reagans chose this spot not only for their library but also for their final resting place. So as in this upcoming week, as the nation says good-bye to a popular former president, staff at the Reagan Library's preparing for a week of mourning that begins and ends right here.

Starting tomorrow at noon, the public will be allowed to view the closed presidential casket. That continues through Tuesday. On Wednesday, the casket is in Washington for ceremonies and public viewing in the Capitol Rotunda. That continues through Thursday.

Friday begins with funeral services at the National Cathedral. The casket will then make one final flight cross country where former President Ronald Reagan will be buried in ceremonies open only to friends and family, who have had to endure so much over the last 10 years as the former president suffered with Alzheimer's.

The casket will remain closed, as we said, in the public -- in the public viewings, and the public here will be greeted when they arrive by a large bronze statue of the former president wearing cowboy gear. It is a very complimentary image of the former president, smiling, looking very rough and tumble. An image that will no doubt endure and remain very fond in the hearts of many people who come up here -- Lou.

DOBBS: Thank you very much. We turn now to President Bush, who today described President Reagan as a courageous leader who served the cause of freedom. President Bush made his remarks at a ceremony in France, commemorating the 60th anniversary of the D-Day landings. Senior White House correspondent John King reports from Paris -- John.

JOHN KING, CNN SR. WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Lou, the commemoration already a moving event, all the more so because of the death of Ronald Reagan back in the United States. Mr. Bush was here in Paris last night when he received the word of Mr. Reagan's tragic death. Today, he did go to Normandy, to the U.S. military cemetery near the beaches of Normandy. Mr. Bush walking to the ceremonies there, accompanied by the French President Jacques Chirac. Mr. Bush there of course to thank the soldiers, those who are buried at the military cemetery, those veterans who came for these ceremonies, but at the very top of his remarks, Mr. Bush also paying tribute to an American president who walked that same hallowed ground 20 years ago.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Twenty summers ago, another American president came here to Normandy to pay tribute to the men of D-Day. He was a courageous man himself and a gallant leader in the cause of freedom. And today, we honor the memory of Ronald Reagan.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: At the ceremonies here today, Mr. Bush coming into contact with many of the world leaders who will come to the United States in the days ahead for the annual meeting of the group of eight, the G-8 summit in Sea Ilsnad (ph), Georgia. Mr. Bush seeing the president of France, of course. The prime minister of Britain, the chancellor of Germany. The Russian President Vladimir Putin. Other Europeans leaders on hand too, in the coming days, many of them will participate in the G-8 summit. Many of them then to remain in the Washington for the Ronald Reagan funeral at the National Cathedral in Washington.

Mr. Bush recalled that speech by Ronald Reagan 20 years ago. It was indeed vintage Reagan. He talked of his desire to make peace with the Soviet Union, rid the world of nuclear arms, but he also said the alliance needed to stand up against communism. At that time, he referred to the, quote, "liberated countries lost" because of Soviet occupation. Many of the leaders of those now free countries in Eastern Europe will be at Ronald Reagan's funeral on Friday, as this president, Mr. Reagan, gets so much credit, Lou, as you know, for the fall of Soviet communism -- Lou.

DOBBS: John, thank you very much.

President Reagan was an unrelenting opponent of communism and a forceful advocate of freedom for oppressed people around the world. The Reagan doctrine was an uncompromising policy to win a global struggle between good and evil. Kitty Pilgrim reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KITTY PILGRIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Ronald Reagan hated communism. His Reagan doctrine set a new direction, urging the country to abandon illusions about detente with the Soviet Union.

REAGAN: I urge you to beware of the temptation of pride, the temptation of blithely declaring yourselves above it all and label both sides equally at fault. To ignore the facts of history and the aggressive impulses of an evil empire.

PILGRIM: During the Reagan years, defense spending accelerated and peaked in 1986, forcing the Soviet Union to the negotiating table. In 1983, Reagan proposed a technological shield to protect the country from nuclear attack. The strategic defense initiative, SDI.

LEE EDWARDS, HERITAGE FOUNDATION: We know from statements made by the Soviets themselves, after it was all over, that this made them realize that they could not keep up with us and our superior technology. That the SDI, in effect, made their ICBMs ineffective and almost useless. So SDI was really at the heart of the Reagan doctrine.

PILGRIM: Appearances of strength also mattered for Reagan. Meeting Soviet President Mikhail Gorbachev, Reagan stood vigorously in a suit jacket as the communist leader was bundled up. Reagan rhetoric was also a foreign policy weapon. He literally stood at the symbolic brink of the communist empire, the Berlin Wall and challenged.

REAGAN: Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall.

PILGRIM: Margaret Thatcher gave him the ultimate credit. "Ronald Reagan had a higher claim than any other leader to have won the Cold War for liberty, and he did it without a shot being fired." A damaging foreign policy event was the controversial Iran-Contra affair. In 1986, it was revealed the U.S. was illegally supplying assistance to the Nicaraguan Contra rebels, from the proceeds of sales of arms to Iran. Both illegal activities.

Reagan personally claimed he had not been informed of the activities.

Reagan also had his dark days of terrorism. In 1983, the bombing of a U.S. embassy in Beirut killed 63 people.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PILGRIM: It's remarkable that a foreign policy based on such military spending and show of strength resulted in such a relatively light use of force. The Reagan doctrine is credited with bringing a new era of peace without expending many bullets -- Lou.

DOBBS: Kitty, thank you very much.

Coming up next, I'll be talking with Bernard Shaw, who anchored CNN's coverage of the Reagan years. We'll be talking about President Reagan's remarkable career, a career that launched a political and economic revolution that changed not only the United States but the world.

Stay with us.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REAGAN: What kind of people will we be 40 years from today? May we answer, free people. Worthy of freedom. And firm in the conviction that freedom is not the sole prerogative of a chosen few, but the universal right of all God's children. This is the universal declaration of human rights set forth in 1948, and this is the affirming flame the United States has held high to a watching world. We champion freedom not only because it is practical and beneficial, but because it is morally right and just.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: My next guest is a former colleague, veteran journalist who anchored CNN's coverage of the Reagan presidency from the beginning. Former CNN anchor Bernard Shaw reported on the 1980 Republican convention, the campaign, the assassination attempt on the president, the historic nuclear arms summits with Mikhail Gorbachev, and all of the momentous events of the Reagan presidency. Bernard Shaw joins us from Washington. Good to have you here, Bernie.

BERNARD SHAW, FORMER CNN ANCHOR: Good to always be with you, Lou.

DOBBS: Bernie, as we look back on 1980, a remarkable year in nearly every aspect. The campaign, the convention. What strikes you most about the public view, the perception of Ronald Reagan in the early days of that campaign?

SHAW: Well, Lou, here in Washington, in retrospect, you realize that Ronald Wilson Reagan was the political calm before the storm here in Washington.

Take you back to that period in the country. What did we have? We have double digit inflation. Interest rates were double digit. Americans were held hostage in the U.S. embassy in Tehran. And this man raised his right hand as chief justice Warren Burger administered the oath of office, and we recall in CNN's live coverage that day, we split the screen into a quad. Four different sections, in which we showed this man becoming the 40th president of the United States, and hostages, Americans being released after 444 days. And that sort of set the tone. One of expectancy, one of relief, one of apprehension. And of course, if you were a Democrat in this town, they had to stand by.

DOBBS: And it was a remarkable day for all of that and for what was to come. Shortly in a matter of just over two months, President Reagan was shot. And Bernie, I can still remember vividly our coverage of that assassination attempt. Your anchoring of our coverage. Your thoughts as you go back to that day?

SHAW: Well, I felt as if I had no bottom to my stomach. I had anchored our live coverage of the president addressing the AFL-CIO at the Washington Hilton Hotel. Summed up what he said and threw it back to the Atlanta anchor, and I tilted back in my anchor chair, and I heard Bill Hansel (ph), who was on our desk with Sissy Baker (ph), the daughter of former Tennessee Senator Howard Baker, they were on the assignment desk and I could hear commotion. And I said, what's going on? And Bill Hansel (ph) said, they're shooting at your president. And I said, that's not very funny. He said, I'm serious. Listen.

He turned up the audio, and you could hear police, Secret Service people, the confusion. I said, tell Atlanta to get right back to us. And we stayed on the air for the next 20 hours and the unending coverage. It was here as we see Jim Brady, the president's press secretary, the police officers, some Secret Service agents on the sidewalk, that there was speculation about Jim Brady being dead.

He was not dead. And we never reported the fact that he had died. What we didn't know was that the president had been hit and that his wounds were very, very serious. And of course, there was confusion at Washington Hospital Center where the president was taken -- and Lyn Nofziger, you remember, he went down there with the open collared shirt and tried to bring some order to the chaos down there.

DOBBS: You know, I -- Bernie, like so many of us who covered the events of the '80s, and I think most Americans remember the president with remarkable humor at that grave moment, saying of his medical care at the hospital, turning and saying, "I hope all you doctors are Republicans."

SHAW: And then, he also said that when he first saw Nancy Reagan when she rushed to the hospital, "honey, I forgot to duck." DOBBS: This man, as we look over his career, as we'll be doing for some days and nights here, it is truly remarkable what he achieved with Gorbachev. You covered all of those summits. At what point did you think something new was at work between the United States and the Soviet Union?

SHAW: The moment these two powerful leaders looked at their staffs and said, get lost. It was Geneva, 1985. There was apprehension about whether these men would come together. This is Reykjavik right now, but in the '85 summit, these two leaders decided we need to spend some time alone. What did they do? They went out to the boat house. That was that famous scene of Gorbachev and Reagan in front of the fireplace, and they spent precious time. That's when they really became to know each other. And that's where they bonded in a sense. That was the beginning of something very, very important to this planet.

DOBBS: Very important, indeed. And the Soviet Union would last really only another effectively five years. Marxism-Leninism, a competing ideology to free enterprise, democracy would collapse. But none of that was in prospect when Ronald Reagan was campaigning and when he was elected. He was considered by much of the national media, many if not most of the American people to be a B-movie actor, a California governor, who was an arch conservative. A John Birch conservative, with an itchy trigger finger, about to be placed on the nuclear arsenal. How quickly did you see that in covering him change?

SHAW: It took time. I think the beginning of the Reagan- Gorbachev summits was the forerunner, the prelude if you will to a more serious addressing of and reckoning with this leader here in this beige suit here in the cabinet room as he conducts this meeting. Howard Baker, now ambassador to the -- to Japan there to his left.

I think it was there that we began to see that.

One of the things I noticed in all of the coverage that we've had of this former president, this late president and what we'll see in coming days is that it seems that to me this man's humanity is being understated. The twinkle in the eye. The warm smile.

I think of two things. Mr. Reagan and Mrs. Reagan gave out my wife and I an invitation -- a standing invitation to visit them at their house in Bel Air. And we did about, two years afterwards. We went out. Coffee and tea in the afternoon at the Reagans.

I asked Mrs. Reagan for some decaf coffee, and Linda, the president said, would you like -- she said, some ice water? Mrs. Reagan was pouring me a cup of coffee. The president got up, left the room. Two minutes later, I hear him behind me, and I turn around and here's Ronald Reagan with a glass of cold ice water in one hand and a white linen napkin in the other hand. Puts the napkin down. Glass of water down. Here you are.

And he sits down. And we talk for about 45 minutes. And, Lou, normally the reporter in you would have you trying to memorize quotes. None of that. It was just a conversation. Afterwards, he took us on a tour of the house. He showed us his study. And Mrs. Reagan said, this is where we watched you on "INSIDE POLITICS" every day.

DOBBS: Well, Bernie, we thank you for sharing some of the memories, your thoughts about the Reagan era. And as always...

SHAW: Good to be with you.

DOBBS: Good to be with you. My good colleague for almost two decades and good friend. Bernard Shaw.

When we continue, Ronald Reagan rebuilt this country's national confidence and revived the American economy, but at significant cost. We'll take a closer, much closer look at Reaganomics, the Teflon President, and more, in just a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: President Reagan launched an economic revolution that defeated inflation and revived the economy after a decade of slow or no growth. President Reagan did it with a brand of economic policy that came to be and to this day still bears the name Reaganomics. Peter Viles reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

REAGAN: Let me ask you something. Are you better off than you were four years ago?

PETER VILES, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Most Americans were not. The crime rate then was 15 percent. The misery index -- inflation plus unemployment -- was above 20 percent. The stock market had gone nowhere except down for 15 years.

BRUCE BARLETT, NATIONAL CENTER FOR POLICY ANALYSIS: The magnitude of the problem was so great that there were a great many, you know, responsible economists who thought we would have to go through something like the equivalent of another Great Depression.

VILES: Reagan's plan was optimistic, bold and widely ridiculed. George Bush called it voodoo economics. It was to cut taxes, increase defense spending, starve the rest of the government, and somehow balance the budget.

REAGAN: In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem. Government is the problem.

VILES: He convinced Congress to cut taxes and to stay the course during the recession of 1982, and ultimately did what Presidents Nixon, Ford and Carter could not. He beat inflation. On his watch, it fell from 12.5 percent to 4.6. The jobless rate fell to 5.4 percent. The economy added 16 million new jobs. The stock market rallied, even after that 1987 crash. It gained 147 percent in the Reagan era.

STEVE MOORE, CLUB FOR GROWTH: The tragedy, really is that Ronald Reagan, arguably the most important economist of the 20th century, never won the Nobel Prize in economics, but when you think about it, this is a man who really had as profound an impact on economics as any of the economists, whether you're talking about Milton Friedman or John Maynard Keynes.

VILES: His economic success was not total. He did never did balance the budget. The deficit widened.

WALTER MONDALE, FORMER PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Some of the strategies that were used during this administration led to enormous deficits, led to the some of the things we're seeing again today, which can lead to higher interest rates, distorted value of the dollar that hurts us in trade.

VILES: His influence lives on. It was Reagan who made Alan Greenspan Fed chairman, who dealt labor unions a lasting defeat by firing striking air traffic controllers, whose free market policies, still alive in Washington, had their roots in a Jeffersonian ideal. The government is best which governs least.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

VILES: Reaganomics did more than revive the American economy, it restored American confidence. It did help to win the Cold War, and gave us an era of peace and prosperity that few could have imagined in 1980, Lou.

DOBBS: Absolutely. Pete, thanks very much. Peter Viles.

For more now on the legacy of Reaganomics, the president of -- the presidency of Ronald Reagan, we're joined by three of this country's top journalists, each of whom had an opportunity to cover the Reagan presidency.

In Washington, Karen Tumulty, national political editor, "Time" magazine. Roger Simon, political editor, "U.S. News & World Report," and here in New York, Rik Kirkland, managing editor, "Fortune" magazine. Thank you all for being here.

Rik, let me begin with you on Reaganomics and the teflon presidency. There are many younger people watching all of this, of course, who think that when you say teflon, that means Clinton. But Reagan was the original teflon president.

RIK KIRKLAND, FORTUNE MAGAZINE: He was. The thing about Reaganomics, Lou, that I find fascinating is you look at it in the context of the time as a political policy -- as a policy -- it was the tonic the country needed. As Peter's segment suggested, inflation was out of control. Taxes were 70 percent on earned income, 70 percent. And government hadn't stopped growing since World War II.

So, it really worked and it restored confidence. My problem with it or the problem with it is the way it's hardened into a kind of almost the latest orthodoxy that cutting taxes is the only policy for any problem, and that founders on one thing, that Reagan never solved either, which was he never was able to stop the spending problems -- the side of things, and never was able to shrink the size of government. And that remains the problem of Reaganomics today. DOBBS: And the twin deficits that reached records into more than tripling of the national debt under Ronald Reagan.

KIRKLAND: Right.

DOBBS: Karen, your thoughts on the legacy of Ronald Reagan?

KAREN TUMULTY, TIME MAGAZINE: Well, certainly, his economic policies. For a while there, it didn't look for sure that they were going to work. Remember 1982, there was a terrible recession. Republicans lost in droves in those midterm elections. But the economy had turned around enough for Ronald Reagan to win in a landslide in 1984.

And then he kept pushing. Don't forget in his second term, a time when most presidents have to scale back their ambitions, he actually dismantled the tax code and essentially, with a Democratic Congress, built it from the ground up all over again.

DOBBS: Roger, there's an impression easily gained in this country to this day that Ronald Reagan was a divider, not an uniter, to quote some relatively more recent rhetoric on presidents, but the fact is, as Karen pointed out, he accomplished a great deal in partnership with Democrats, didn't he?

ROGER SIMON, U.S. NEWS & WORLD REPORT: Oh, absolutely. His achievements in his first year, his legislative agenda was I think, unequaled, except perhaps by the FDR's first 100 days, and maybe surpassed that.

Ronald Reagan certainly got his legislative program through a Congress that still in his first term had a Democratic House of Representatives.

He knew how to work with Congress, because he had seen how badly Jimmy Carter's administration had worked with Congress, and his aides would joke how they used to have to lasso him to keep him off Capitol Hill. Even though he had ran against Washington in his campaign, he stopped bashing Washington as a force once he got there, and was quite happy to work with Congress.

TUMULTY: Yeah. In fact, he and Tip O'Neill would fight all day in the business hours and would actually have a drink together at the White House after hours. That is the sort of thing you just couldn't imagine happening between top Democrats and top Republicans in Washington today.

DOBBS: And Rik, the legacy economically, as you suggest, smaller government, but the fact is government grew. So did the public debt, trade deficits, budget deficits. And today, we're with a Republican president who has accelerated the trend even further.

KIRKLAND: So I think the challenge is we have to figure out -- we have to honor what Reaganomics did, which was extraordinary, it was remarkable to think about the way this country was when we were young pups starting out in this business and what Reagan did to change that. But it isn't going to work, given the problems we face today, to just say we are going to cut taxes and hope we can starve the government of what it needs, because no one seems to be seriously debating how to shrink the size of government.

DOBBS: To shrink the size of government, when there's so much being asked of government seems difficult, and the ugly dirty little secret of the Reagan presidency is he didn't accomplish everything that he meant to do, either. He not only used the policies of Milton Friedman to build up the bulwark of his philosophy, but he was also a Keynesian in terms of the stimulation that was going on in this economy. Karen, your thoughts?

TUMULTY: Well, that's true. And, of course, the result of that was a gigantic deficit that it took a long time to get rid of. But back in those days, the deficit numbers just were jaw dropping. Now they almost look like pocket change.

DOBBS: Roger, your thoughts?

SIMON: Well, as you say, one of the dirt little secrets is Reaganomics doesn't work unless your cutbacks in government programs is as severe as your tax cuts. And can only also offset which was a -- what was a huge increase in the military budget, 27 percent over three years. He never could balance out one with the other; that's why the deficit went from one trillion to three trillion.

DOBBS: And of course, with all of that, I think few people would argue that the price was exorbitant for defeating Marxism-Leninism and the collapse of the Soviet Union, but where some all these years later, where's that peace dividend, Rik Kirkland?

KIRKLAND: The peace dividend, we spent it during the '90s. It was part of why the government got smaller under Clinton, and it's gone. Now we have a war on terror, it's going to be expensive, and the world has moved on.

DOBBS: And hopefully, we haven't moved beyond at least the optimism that was also one of Ronald Reagan's definite legacies.

Karen Tumulty, Roger Simon, Rik Kirkland, thank you all for being here.

When we continue, I'll be talking with one of the most highly regarded historians about President Reagan, his politics, and of course, his legacy. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: My next guest is the author of the book "Ronald Reagan: The Politics of Symbolism." Presidential historian Robert Dalleck says President Reagan restored a sense of hope to the office of president and he joins me tonight from Washington. Bob, good to have you with us.

ROBERT DALLEK, PRESIDENTIAL HISTORIAN: Thanks, Lou. Nice to be with you. DOBBS: There is, and I would like to know first as a historian, a scholar, an American, your feelings tonight, because I find myself, of course, mourning the passing of an American president.

DALLEK: Yes.

But at the same time, I feel such a sense of optimism that is continuing from his administration. That -- I think is an interesting mixture of emotions.

DALLEK: I think you put your fingers on something so important, Lou. I've been watching television and listening to the radio and reading the stories in the newspapers and what I'm struck by is that there is, of course, a sense of loss, but when somebody of the age of 93 passes it is not a sense of the tragic, but what I'm most struck by is how inspirited the country in a sense feels.

They recaptured the feeling that Reagan passed along to them in the 1980s. A sense that politics has been so unpleasant in recent years, there's been so much acrimony, so much division, a kind of sharpness to it and, Reagan, I think, makes people feel better again about politics. I think that's what he did in the 1980s.

It is ironic, I feel, someone that preached government is the problem, that he made people feel much better about the presidency and about government by the end of his eight years in office.

DOBBS: And it is easy for people to forget he was a devisive figure, certainly in the 1976 presidential primary, the 1980. There was an electric charge around his conservativism. There were people that considered him point blank in the national media, at least, to be insufficient character, lacking capacity to be president, mostly because of the of the highly conservative ideology. And then to look at the fact eight years later, he leaves the office with the highest approval rating of any president since FDR. Your thoughts?

DALLEK: Well, you know, Lou, he was much more pragmatic, much more flexible than the campaign of 1980 suggested, or his earlier career, even, as governor of California might have suggested. You know, Herbert Hoover said of Franklin Roosevelt in 1932, he's a chameleon on plaid. And Roosevelt wore that badge proudly.

And I think Reagan would have found that appealing, as well, because what he understood is politics is something that you have to be realistic in your response to the changing conditions you confront. And I think that was a real strength of his. And, he was able to shift and maneuver. And he came into office talking about the evil empire, the Soviet Union, and his second term was devoted to all these negotiations and four summit conferences with Mikhail Gorbachev and quite a shift away from 1980 or 1981.

DOBBS: There is a sense, too, that I have taken from some historians that is somewhat, at least to me, revisionist talking about the Reagan era in which the result was the defeat of Marxist Leninism and the clash of the Soviet Union as being some sort of an accident of history and not a conscious strategy on the part of Ronald Reagan. The fact is, he predicted in 1980 that the Soviet Union would end up on the ash heap of history, did he not?

DALLEK: He did. He did. But, you know, Lou, I think, too some say Ronald Reagan won the Cold War is a bit too simplistic. You know, it was a long trail of winding going back to Harry Truman and George Cannon who put in place the containment doctrine, the deterent strategy.

And Reagan, though, had the wisdom to see there was an opportunity in negotiations with Gorbachev to really knock down Communism. To demonstrate to the Russian people themselves. Remember his last trip to Moscow, the last summit conference in Moscow, when he spoke to the Russian people about freedom.

And, so I think he was someone who did move the Cold War along toward a conclusion. And did help in the destruction of the Soviet Communism, but I wouldn't go so far as to say, well, he was the only one that did it, or he won the Cold War. And I think, in oh, 50 years from now, historians will him credit for his achievement, but they'll put it into a long range context.

DOBBS: He also destroyed PATCO, the air traffic controllers. And as history sweeps its pendulum, he did lasting damage to collective bargaining and labor organizations in this country. How will he be remembered in that regard?

DALLEK: Well I think there will be a critical side. You know, historians will get into the documentary record in the next 15, 20 years and they won't be uncritical. They'll see plenty to complain about, including his economic policies and the fact that he piled up such extraordinary debt during his -- what was it, a tripling of the national debt in his eight years in office.

But I think what in part serves him is the fact that he did serving eight years and, you know, Lou there have been only 15 out of all 43 presidents who were elected to a second term or more. The one being Franklin Roosevelt did more. And there were only 12 who served eight years in office. And so, he stands, in a sense in the front rank of long serving presidents and he will be remembered as an important president. And someone who had a significant impact on the country.

DOBBS: And ranking quickly. We have just seconds, rank for us, if you will, President Reagan among the 20th Century presidents.

DALLEK: Yes. Well, above average. Maybe, maybe down the road they'll see him as near great, but above average.

DOBBS: Robert DAllek, thanks for being with us.

DALLEK: My pleasure.

DOBBS: When we continue, we continue our look at the life of Ronald Reagan. And before going to Washington, Ronald Reagan won fame and began his political career in California, of course. We'll be taking a look at the Reagan California years next. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: Ronald Reagan's first elective office was for president: the presidency of the Screen Actors' Guild in Hollywood. California was a formative location for Reagan, from his personal life to his political career. Casey Wian the story from Los Angeles.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Like so many stars with their eyes, Ronald Reagan came to Hollywood in the 1930s. He made his name in 50 movies as the Gipper, as the side kick to an infamous chink named Bonzo and then in the upstart medium of television. He spent eight years as a corporate pitchman for General Electric.

R. REAGAN: That's part of living better electrically.

JOHNNY GRANT, CHMN. HOLLYWOOD WALL OF FAME: He was a better actor than most people gave him credit for. He was a great ambassador for the industry. He just knew the right thing to say at the right time.

WIAN: During the 1940s, Reagan became a staunch anti-communist, naming names of suspected Hollywood sympathizer groups, while defending colleagues accused of Communist party membership. As president of the Screen Actors' Guild, he led a strike seeking pay for film actors whose work aired on television.

R. REAGAN: I have spent most of my life as a Democrat.

WIAN: In 1964, he tried to rescue Barry Goldwater's presidential campaign with a speech that would define his political agenda.

R. REAGAN: Government does nothing as well or as economically as the private sector of the economy.

STU SPENCER, REAGAN POLITICAL CONSULTANT: That was sort of the basis of what we called "the speech." From there on out, I mean, he'd tinker with it, change it and do this sort of thing, but the basic premises of that speech were the ones he used all the way through his career.

WIAN: Two years later, Reagan's transformation to politician was complete.

R. REAGAN: As of now, I am a candidate seeking the Republican nomination for governor.

WIAN: He won by a million votes over two term incumbent Democrat Pat Brown, but he took charge of a state still reeling from race riots and about to become the center of campus protests over the Vietnam War, even state lawmakers in Reagan's own party say he and his cabinet were unprepared.

WILLIAM BAGLEY, FRM. CALIF. STATE LEGISLATOR: You can say government ought to be smaller, you can say there ought to be less taxes and less this and that, but my good god, you ought to know what the hell was going on and they didn't.

WIAN: They learned, passing welfare reforms and slowing the growth of state government.

EDWIN MEESE, REAGAN CABINET MEMBER: I think Ronald Reagan's greatest accomplishment as governor of California, first of all, was to preside over the state, to govern the state at a very difficult time. This was during the Vietnam War. There was a lot of problems on the campuses. It was a time of considerable turmoil in the cities and it was to govern the state with a fair, but at the same time, a firm hand.

WIAN: Even after he was elected president, Reagan often returned to his ranch near Santa Barbara. And he retired to Bel Air, just a short distance from Hollywood, where his California journey began.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WIAN: Reagan's legacy in California continues to this day. Another actor turned governor Arnold Schwarzenegger says even before he was a U.S. citizen, he campaigned for Reagan, handing out leaflets and making phone calls. And the current governor's ability to charm is often compared to Ronald Reagan's -- Lou.

DOBBS: He's off to a good beginning at the very least. Casey Wian, thank you very much.

I just a moment, I'll be talking with a former Reagan policy adviser and biographer about President Reagan's permanent impact on the country and the world.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: My next guest served as domestic policy analyst under President Reagan, says even those who served in the Reagan White House didn't believe the president could accomplish all that he did.

Today, Dinesh D'Souza he says this nation owes President Reagan an immense debt. Donesh is the author of "Ronald Reagan: How An Ordinary Man Became An Extraordinary Leader." And he joins us tonight from Milwakee, Wisconsin. Dinesh, good to have you here. We just heard historian Robert Dallek say above average. Give us your place in history.

DINESH D'SOUZA, FRM. REAGAN POLICY ANALYST: I think that there is among contemporary historians a prejudice against Reagan and the reason is simple: on issue after issue from the Soviet Union to taxes to inflation, the historians were wrong and Reagan was right.

So, I think as time passes, the prejudice will pass as well. I think Reagan will be seen as one of America's great presidents. I wouldn't put him in the league as Lincoln or Washington, but in the next tier, with Teddy Roosevelt and Franklin Roosevelt, and perhaps Thomas Jefferson. So, I would put him in very elite company.

DOBBS: You have said, however, when you joined the White House, your enthusiasm and confidence in President Reagan was ebbing.

D'SOUZA: Well, we were fooled by Reagan's style. You know, Reagan was a jovial, whimsical fellow. Even on serious issues, he had a jovial side. When he wanted to cut taxes dramatically and raise defense spending, not just the Democrats, but his own aides said, you are going to get a big deficit. And Reagan said, well, he said, I think the deficit is big enough to look at itself.

So when you hear this kind of almost joking attitude, you think that maybe the guy is not as scholarly, not as serious as you would like. But I think as time passed we realized that Reagan had his eye on the larger ball and he was able to accomplish many of the spectacular things that he promised, even though at the time it seemed very unlikely.

DOBBS: And how much, in your judgment, of the optimism that Reagan brought, you mentioned the jovialty, his sense of humor, but a sense of optimism, how much of that has endured from his presidency to this day?

D'SOUZA: I think his optimism, not on inspired a generation of young people in the '80s, a whole bunch of us who were aiming at business school or law school or in college at the time changed careers and moved towards journalism and politics. So he inspired a whole generation. But I think even today conservatives take heart from Reaganism and from his forward looking conservativism very different from the conservativism of the past.

DOBBS: And conservativism as it is -- I guess practiced would be the word today, markedly different from that of the president, President Reagan?

D'SOUZA: I wouldn't say that. I think that President Bush has some of the qualities of Reagan. He's got that deep confidence in his beliefs. He sees the world in terms of the clear colors of right and wrong as Reagan did. He's a man of action as Reagan was.

I think if there's one difference, the one area in which I missed Reagan, is that Reagan backed up the deeds with words. He was truly the great communicator the. Not just in the way he said things, but that he made the arguments against the evil empire and so on. I would like to see Bush do more of that.

DOBBS: Thank you very much. Dinesh D'Souza, we thank you for being here.

Defining a vision of a better America was part of what gave Ronald Reagan the nickname "the Great Communicator." When we continue, why so much of the legacy is remembered with great humor. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: President Reagan's trademark sense of humor and unique ability to connect with ordinary people earned him the title of "The Great Communicator." It also earned him the votes of millions of Democrats, who came to be known as Reagan Democrats. But above all, President Reagan inspired generations of Americans to trust and to respect the office of the president. Bill Tucker reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BILL TUCKER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It takes a special politician to get someone to cross political lines.

JIMMY CARTER, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I probably know as well as anybody what a formidable communicator and campaigner President Reagan was. It was because of him, that I was involuntarily retired from his last job in November of 1980.

TUCKER: And in the process, Reagan did more than just win elections.

SEN. JOHN MCCAIN, (R) ARIZONA: He restored our confidence in our faith in the greatness and the future of this nation.

TUCKER: He did that simply by reminding us.

R. REAGAN: Those that say we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look. You can see heroes every day going in and out of factory gates. Others a handful in number, produce enough food to feed all of us and then the world beyond.

TUCKER: He was always quick with a quip, such as during the 1984 campaign debates with Walter Mondale.

R. REAGAN: I will not make age an issue of this campaign. I will not exploit for political purposes my opponent's youth and inexperience.

TUCKER: When he was shot, just 70 days after taking office, he said to his doctors in the hospital, I hope you're all Republicans.

GEORGE. H.W. BUSH, FRM. PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: He had a wonderful way to disagree with him. He'd have leaders in Congress or foreign leaders that he disagree with and never disagreeable about it himself. He was never mean spirited.

TUCKER: And he wasn't afraid to let us see that kindness does mix with resolve.

R. REAGAN: I want to say something to the school children of America who are watching the live coverage of the shuttle's takeoff. I know it's hard to understand, but sometimes painful things like this happen. It's all part of the process of exploration and discovery. It's all part of taking a chance and expanding man's horizons. Future doesn't belong to the faint hearted. It belongs to the brave.

TUCKER: Perhaps it's down to this, President Reagan was trusted by millions because he saw in them a greatness. As he reminded us in the farewell address after eight years in office.

R. REAGAN: I want a nickname, the Great Communicator. But I never thought it was my style or the words I used that made a difference, it was the content. I wasn't a great communicator. But I communicated great things. And they didn't spring full bloom from my brow, they came from the heart of a great nation, from our experience, our wisdom and our belief in the principles that have guided us for 2 centuries.

TUCKER: Bill Tucker, CNN.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

DOBBS: Thank you for joining us tonight as a nation mourns and we remember a live, of Ronald Reagan. For all of us here, good night from New York. "ANDERSON COOPER 360" is next.

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