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Lou Dobbs Tonight
Homeland Security Contract Awarded to Foreign Company; New Iraq Government Not Enough to Establish Security
Aired June 10, 2004 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR: Tonight, President Bush says he does not expect NATO to offer more troops for Iraq.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: That's an unrealistic expectation.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: Iraqi police battle insurgents in Najaf and appeal to U.S. troops for help. The Americans refuse. I'll be talking with former coalition adviser Larry Diamond and General David Grange.
A congressional committee takes action in the outrage over a multibillion-dollar homeland security contract awarded to a foreign company. Congresswoman Rosa DeLaura is leading the effort to block it. She's our guest tonight.
In our special report, "Homeland Insecurity," new concerns that our borders are attracting not only illegal aliens, but terrorists as well.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If it's simple for an uneducated peasant from Mexico to just wander across our borders at will, how much easier is it for a well-financed and well-trained terrorist to do the same?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT for Thursday, June 10. Here now for an hour of news, debate and opinion is Lou Dobbs.
DOBBS: Good evening.
President Bush today said it's unlikely NATO will play a greater role in Iraq. The president made that assessment after French President Jacques Chirac declined to give more NATO support to Iraq. The two met on the final day of the G-8 summit in Sea Island, Georgia.
Senior White House Correspondent John King reports -- John.
JOHN KING, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Lou, Mr. Bush, in an extraordinarily upbeat mood as the summit closed, despite that dispute with France here at the G-8 summit. The president meeting with reporters for some 40 minutes this afternoon after the summit wrapped up.
Yes, there is still a disagreement with France. Mr. Bush would like an expanded NATO role in post-war Iraq. The French are quite skeptical. At his news conference, Mr. Bush tried to play down the significance of it and put it all into context. He says all he wants is an expanded NATO role helping to speed up and improve the training of Iraqi military and security forces. The president says he's not asking for a major new infusion of troops.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BUSH: I don't expect more troops from NATO to be offered up. That's an unrealistic expectation. Nobody is suggesting that. What we are suggesting is for NATO perhaps to help train. Now that will come at the request of the Iraqi government.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: Now Mr. Chirac met with Mr. Bush today. In a public appearance yesterday, he said publicly he was skeptical about an expanded NATO role. Mr. Chirac did not say so in Mr. Bush's presence today. Instead, they exchanged compliments and talked of cooperation, even joking that the food when Mr. Bush was in France recently was good and so was the food, too, here in Georgia.
That, Lou, all part of the effort by all of the leaders here to put the bitterness of the war debate behind them and look toward the future. In fact, Mr. Bush was quick with a joke when asked at his news conference earlier today how the G-8 leaders deal with it, what do they do when they have major policy fights?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BUSH: We go to different corners of the room and we face the wall. No, it's -- look, there is -- we're united by values. We're united by common values. And, therefore, it's an easy place to start conversations.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: Now one reason Mr. Bush is making jokes about all this is by the time the NATO summit comes up, a little less than three weeks from now, U.S. officials say they believe even this recent dustup with France will be settled.
They say France objected because Mr. Bush floated the idea first. They say France is sending signals behind the scenes that if the new interim Iraqi government specifically asks for an expanded NATO role in training troops that France might not like it but that it is unlikely to object at the NATO summit.
The German chancellor, Gerhard Schroeder, today said he, too, would not send any German troops into Iraq but that he would not veto any new NATO proposal.
So, Lou, Mr. Bush heading from this summit in an upbeat mood. He believes he is working better with the leaders who opposed him so vehemently during the war, and this one quick footnote.
We were told on the flight back on Air Force One the president worked on the eulogy he will deliver for Ronald Reagan at the funeral tomorrow. And, Lou, the president now at Andrews Air Force Base about to go to the Capitol Rotunda to pay now his respects to Ronald Reagan.
I think we can see some live pictures here of the president deplaning Air Force One with First Lady Laura Bush. They left here a bit ahead of schedule, Mr. Bush wanting to get back to Washington with the first lady. They will go straight to the Capitol Rotunda, some private time with Nancy Reagan at the Blair House and the Reagan family, the Blair House across the street from the White House, tonight -- and, again, Lou, in about 15 minutes, aides say.
The president will speak tomorrow at the funeral services at the National Cathedral. As he put it today, he wants to give the thanks of a grateful nation as Ronald Reagan is laid to rest -- Lou.
DOBBS: John, thank you very much.
And, as John King just reported, we will be covering the president and Mrs. Bush at the Rotunda where President Reagan's body lies in state, and that will be coming up in just about 15 minutes.
More violence to report today in Iraq. At least five people were killed in clashes between Iraqi police and insurgents in Najaf. American troops were not involved in that fighting. That is one of the first times that Iraqi police asked for the help of U.S. troops and did not receive it.
Guy Raz reports from Najaf.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
GUY RAZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The sound of gunfire in Najaf. The shooting this time Iraqi versus Iraqi. More than two hours of fighting after an Iraqi police station came under small-arms fire and rocket-propelled grenade attack. Four hundred Iraqi police were deployed to these streets last week. They took the place of U.S. forces. The switch was supposed to usher in a period of stability.
Najaf's police chief called for U.S. forces to back up his men. The request was denied, senior officers believing a U.S. presence would have exacerbated the problem.
MAJ. GEN. MARTIN DEMPSEY, U.S. ARMY: What we did today was we -- instead of rushing in with our tanks and Bradleys and aircraft -- which we could have done, but, certainly, that would have set us back a bit in terms of the political outcome -- we're going to help the police figure out what they might have done differently.
RAZ: It's still not clear whether the gunmen who attacked Iraqi police were acting in the name of the defiantly anti-American cleric Muqtada al-Sadr. Some eyewitnesses said this fighting was a personal feud.
In Baghdad, Iraq's prime minister designate reiterated his position on Sadr's militia.
IYAD ALLAWI, IRAQI PRIME MINISTER DESIGNATE: Well, we have called upon him and others to abide by the rule of law and to stick to peaceful means. Any continuity of using force would be dealt by the Iraqi government in a very serious and strong way.
RAZ: With only 20 days to go before administrative authority is handed over to Iraqis, some U.S. officers privately wonder whether Iraqi police can handle stability in Najaf.
(on camera): Senior U.S. Army officers here in Najaf say they never expected Sadr's militiamen to disarm. They're treating this latest flare-up as an Iraqi problem, one best resolved without U.S. help. But if Sadr's gunmen continue to attack Iraqi police, U.S. officials say they'll have no choice but to get involved.
Guy Raz, CNN, Najaf in southern Iraq.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: In Washington, U.S. officials are investigating Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi for his role in an alleged plot to assassinate Saudi Crown Prince Abdullah. That investigation comes just months after the White House praised Gadhafi for ending Libya's weapons of mass destruction program.
Justice Correspondent Kelli Arena reports now from Washington -- Kelli.
KELLI ARENA, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Lou, U.S. officials say the focus of the investigation is to determine if the allegations are true and whether Libya's leader, Moammar Gadhafi, was personally involved.
Now investigators would not talk on the record, but the president basically confirmed the investigation in a session with reporters following the G-8 summit.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BUSH: We're going to make sure we fully understand the veracity of the plot line, and so we're looking into it. That's what I can tell you. And when we find out the facts, we will deal with them accordingly.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ARENA: According to investigators the plot was first disclosed by Abdurahman Alamoudi -- he's an American Muslim activist who's in U.S. custody -- and then by a Libyan intelligence officer in Saudi custody. Now officials say that both men offered separate but very similar accounts of a plan to kill the crown prince. Libya denies the charges.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) ABDEL-RAHMAN SHALQAM, LIBYAN FOREIGN MINISTER: I am sure that they are just lies, not allegations, and let them to go forward in the investigations. The details will come, and the truth will appear. I am confident, I am completely sure that these allegations have no roots, have no basis.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ARENA: The plot was allegedly hatched while the State Department was negotiating the lifting of some sanctions against Libya after it said it would dismantle its weapons of mass destruction program.
State Department officials say that they were aware of the allegations at the time, confronted Libya, and was offered assurances Libya would not use violence to settle political differences.
And, Lou, Libya does remain on the U.S. list of state sponsors of terrorism.
DOBBS: Kelly, you used the term "Muslim activist." What is that?
ARENA: Someone who is very vocal and involved in the Muslim community here in the United States. Someone who was very much involved in the advancement of Muslim causes.
DOBBS: But when you said they're in custody, it has nothing to do with being active in their religion.
ARENA: No, not because -- no, no. He was just very well known, and a lot of people were very shocked when he was taken into custody, Lou, because of his very high profile.
DOBBS: Kelli, thank you very much.
ARENA: Sure.
DOBBS: Kelli Arena reporting from Washington.
Still ahead here tonight, the fight for Iraq. Former coalition adviser Larry Diamond says Iraq's new government needs to take several critical steps to secure its future. He will be with us next to explore that issue.
And "Exporting America," Congress fighting to stop a Bermuda- based company from winning a multibillion-dollar contract for homeland security. Leading the fight, Congresswoman Rosa DeLaura is our guest.
And U.S. border defenses failing to keep thousands of illegal aliens and potential terrorists from crossing into this country every day. We'll have our special report, "Homeland Insecurity," coming right up.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: My guest tonight says the U.N. Security Council's unanimous support of Iraq's new government is an encouraging sign for the country's future. However, he says it does nothing to stop the most urgent problem in Iraq, ongoing violence establishing security.
Larry Diamond says Iraq desperately needs an improved police force, a better-trained army. Diamond is a former senior adviser to the Coalition Provisional Authority, a professor of political science and sociology at Stanford University joining us tonight from Palo Alto, California.
Good to have you with us.
LARRY DIAMOND, FORMER SENIOR ADVISER TO COALITION PROVISIONAL AUTHORITY: Good evening, Lou.
DOBBS: These look to be very encouraging, positive signs. What is your take?
DIAMOND: My take is that we've turned an important corner. We now have greater international legitimacy for the next steps. We have an Iraqi interim government that has some support within the country and broad international legitimacy, and we have a framework for continued U.N. involvement in the country taking the place to some extent of the Coalition Provisional Authority in terms of coordinating international engagement. All of these are very positive steps.
DOBBS: The president was unsuccessful in winning further NATO support. Do you believe that Iraq will be successful in winning that support on its own?
DIAMOND: I think that requests from the Iraqi government will have more power, more meaning, than requests from the United States. But I think the reality is that most other states in the world are going to be reluctant to put in new or additional troops and that what we have is basically what we're going to have.
DOBBS: And for how long will we have 100,000, almost 150,000 American troops in Iraq?
DIAMOND: My guess is that we'll have something like the 135,000 we now have for perhaps a year and that the challenge now, as I said, is to build up the Iraqi police force, army and civil defense corps as rapidly as possible to assume more of the security burden.
DOBBS: And the time required for that -- we thought last summer there that there had been significant progress. It turned out by fall that there was great disappointment with the Iraqis.
DIAMOND: No, it hasn't worked. Police training in particular has been a disaster. We do have one of the most accomplished and effective military officers in Iraq over the last year, Major General David Patreus who's gone back to Iraq to assume responsibility for this burden, and I think we need to give him every single thing he asks for in trying to meet this challenge.
DOBBS: And the Kurds in the constitutional conflict primarily with the Shia -- what do you think will be the ultimate outcome? DIAMOND: Well, it's going to have to be negotiated if it's going to be viable, and the basic problem there is that minorities -- and the Kurds are one minority. Any collection of three provinces has been given the right to veto the final constitution in a referendum, and the Shiites feel that this is really unfair, that three provinces by a two-thirds vote could veto the constitution.
I think there's a way, Lou, of protecting the vital interests of the Kurds and their concern to preserve their regional autonomy while narrowing the scope of this veto, and that may be the focus of future negotiations.
DOBBS: Larry Diamond, thank you for being with us.
DIAMOND: It's a pleasure.
DOBBS: One group of Oregon first graders found a way to support American troops serving overseas, but they never imagined the response they would receive from one soldier in particular.
Veronica Griffin of CNN affiliate KGW reports from Forest Grove, Oregon.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CANDY MARSHALL, DILLEY ELEMENTARY SCHOOL TEACHER: Mail call. Mail for Cody. Mail for Riley. Mail for Gina.
VERONICA GRIFFIN, KGW REPORTER: Candy Marshall is always looking for ways to capture the attention of her first-grade class.
MARSHALL: "No, the water is not very yummy."
GRIFFIN: But this story time is one her students at Dilley Elementary actually ask for.
MARSHALL: "No, I don't have a tank, but we do have tanks here."
GRIFFIN: Ms. Marshal's reading letters written to the students by Staff Sergeant Jack O'Neal (ph) stationed in Afghanistan.
MARSHALL: "Thank you for the pretty picture. It made me smile." "No, I don't like it here, but it is my job and the job of all the other people here to make sure that everyone stays safe back home."
Austin and Ryan, are you guys excited?
GRIFFIN: He wrote to each and every student, answering letters they wrote him two months ago.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's cool.
GRIFFIN: First-grader Garrett is the staff sergeant's younger cousin, but all of the students here wanted to write the soldier.
MARSHALL: Really, all we were hoping for was just to make their day better over there. We weren't expecting to get a letter back for everybody.
GRIFFIN: His job in Afghanistan is working with the locals, letting them know the United States is their friend.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He's really nice, and he has really nice handwriting.
GRIFFIN: And if his new friends here are any indication, O'Neal (ph) must be doing a heck of a job for the U.S. making friends overseas.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you for being brave.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: Veronica Griffin of CNN affiliate KGW reporting.
When we continue, a U.S. government contract critical to our national security awarded to a foreign company. Congresswoman Rosa DeLaura is among those leading the fight against the disturbing policy that made it possible. She joins us next.
And American auto manufacturers. They're pushing for outsourcing, pushing for new ways to cut costs. Their story is next. We'll have that coming up.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: The government for the first time is beginning to track the number of American jobs lost to cheap foreign labor markets. A Department of Labor report released today finding that more than 4,600 American jobs were exported to those cheap foreign labor markets in the first three months of the year.
That report, however, is certainly incomplete. It does not, for example, count every job lost to a foreign worker. Companies that laid off fewer than 50 employees are not even included, and companies that employ fewer than 50 people in total are not included as well in this first government effort.
But it is certainly at least a long-awaited, much-needed beginning.
The government study also confirmed what we've been reporting here for more than a year, that the manufacturing sector has been devastated by the export of American jobs to cheap overseas labor markets. While corporate America increases its reliance on cheap foreign labor, a new report finds that outsourcing simply doesn't pay.
Lisa Sylvester reports from Washington.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LISA SYLVESTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The survey by the Bureau of Labor Statistics found off-shoring is still in its early stages with less than 3 percent of all job loss due to overseas outsourcing. But the trend is expected to grow.
A survey by "CFO" magazine asked corporate managers who have already sent work overseas whether they will increase off-shoring in the next two years. Sixty-four percent said yes. And white-collar jobs are increasingly in jeopardy.
TIM REASON, "CFO" MAGAZINE: One reason the backlash is getting so loud in corporate America is that the jobs that are being moved overseas are coming from the cubicle down the hall instead of the factory floor.
SYLVESTER: Despite the hype over off-shoring, it does not always result in big savings. While 44 percent of "CFO" magazine's respondents said they saved more than 20 percent, more corporate managers, 46%, saw savings of less than 20 percent. And one in 10 managers said they saw no savings at all. But the drive for efficiency will still send some jobs overseas.
STUART ANDERSON, NATIONAL FOUNDATION FOR AMERICAN POLICY: American businesses are faced with enormous competitive pressure, not only domestically, but internationally, and they're going to continue to try to find the best way to organize their company.
SYLVESTER: Off-shoring critics argue sending work overseas may save money, but it comes at a loss of quality and control over the final product.
GREGORY JUNEMANN, INTERNATIONAL FEDERATION OF PROFESSIONAL AND TECHNICAL ENGINEERS: What happens is employers send work offshore and then buy the mistakes.
SYLVESTER: So companies looking for savings often pay a bigger price in the long run by moving overseas.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SYLVESTER: "CFO" magazine found one of the fastest-growing areas for off-shoring is accounting and finance. Twenty-one percent of the 275 corporate managers surveyed reported sending some type of finance work overseas. And, Lou, that's right behind call-center jobs -- Lou.
DOBBS: Lisa, thank you very much.
Lisa Sylvester reporting from Washington.
The Department of Homeland Security recently awarded what could be a $10 billion border security contract to Bermuda-abased Accenture. My guest tonight says it is outrageous and wrong to reward a company for abandoning our country.
Congresswoman Rosa DeLaura has authored legislation that would prevent government contracts from being awarded to foreign companies. In her statement, she said, "The United States should not be doing business with those who want all the benefits of citizenship without any of the responsibilities."
Congresswoman DeLaura joins us tonight from Yale University in Connecticut.
Congresswoman, thank you for being with us.
REP. ROSA DELAURA (D), CONNECTICUT: Thank you, Lou.
DOBBS: I think many people may be surprised at the fact of both was a bipartisan vote.
DELAURA: It was a strong vote.
DOBBS: And what do you make of that?
DELAURA: Well, there's a strong vote. It was 23 democrats, 12 Republicans. And let me just say this to you, Lou. I want to just say thank you to you for really crystallizing this issue.
I think one of the results is the strong vote that we had in the House on providing a contract to a company that, for all purposes, has taken themselves offshore to avoid paying taxes in the United States, now wants to come around and feed at the federal trough and get up to a $10 billion contract.
It's just plain wrong. It puts at a disadvantage those credible and good corporate citizens who are paying their taxes in the United States, and it puts American corporations at a disadvantage.
DOBBS: It is a remarkable circumstance, and, today, a Accenture spokesman basically said that the response of your committee members in disavowing the contract from a Bermuda-based company -- this is sort of striking -- I thought basically saying this wasn't an American way to go about dealing with the issue. What are your thoughts?
DELAURA: I mean I think -- I don't know from what perspective they see this. What they have done is to set up a very, very complex corporate structure, as I think you know, with -- in Bermuda, Luxembourg, Switzerland -- all to avoid paying taxes.
They trade on the New York Stock Exchange, their CEO is based in Dallas, and yet what they want to do at every turn is to cut back on their tax liability. But then they want to come back and say, hey, here we are, we are an American company, and, you know, therefore, we should be -- you know, we should be able to get this contract for almost $10 billion.
It's just wrong. It's wrong.
DOBBS: Congresswoman, what are your best estimates of the chances of success in the full House of defeating this wrongheadedness?
DELAURA: This is a very good question, Lou, because I think if we are able to get the bill to the full House of Representatives, we will win. We did that two years ago in July of 2002. We were able to say no contract from the Department of Homeland Security to these corporate expatriots. It then was watered down so we have a situation we have today.
If we can get it past the administration and the House leadership, get this bill to the floor of the House, we will win it, and I'm hopeful that you will be vigilant. I'm very hopeful on a different note that the strong vote that we had, a bipartisan vote, that will have some resonance because we don't sit in that room representing ourselves.
We represent the people of this country, and I think that anyone who would say to any person on the street we're going to give a $10 billion contract to a company that doesn't want to pay its taxes in the United States will just turn around and laugh at us, and it is wrong, and we shouldn't do it.
I believe if we can get it to the floor of the House, we will be successful.
DOBBS: Well, we obviously wish you all of the best in your efforts to do so.
And you raise a very important point. Every survey that we looked at says that, Congresswoman -- and I'm sure you're looking at many of the same -- says that the -- shows that the American working man or woman in this country is critically concerned about this issue and understands the lack of fairness. But the elites -- and, frankly, from both parties -- continue to support what you, I think, articulated very well as just simply a wrongheaded approach to this kind of contract and the taking advantage of loopholes.
We wish you well on that.
DELAURA: Thank you.
DOBBS: And we congratulate you on your success. Thank you very much, Congresswoman DeLaura.
DELAURA: Thank you.
DOBBS: Thank you.
DELAURA: Appreciate it.
DOBBS: Bringing us now to the topic of our poll, "do you support legislation that would prevent government contracts from being awarded to foreign companies? Yes or no." Cast your vote at cnn.com/lou. We'll have the results for you later in the broadcast, of course.
Many of you have written in about the efforts to bar Accenture's border security contract awarded by the federal government. Tom Heller of Portland, Oregon, said, "How do we even get to the point where the House has to vote to prevent handing $10 billion to Bermuda- based Accenture for our homeland security?"
Daniel Johns of Grayslake, Illinois, "Kudos to the House Appropriations Committee for recognizing that Accenture is better suited at securing their own profits than our citizens' safety."
And N. Falco in Hawthorne, New York, "Thank you for leading the battle against outsourcing. It's hard to believe that my own government is participating in this. Wonder how they would feel if they had to train someone to do their job, forcing them into the unemployment line."
Send us your thoughts at loudobbs@cnn.com.
DOBBS: We've reported extensively on the outsourcing of valuable high paying automobile manufacturing jobs to cheap overseas market such as Mexico and China. In February, we reported that American car makers have significantly raised their purchases of parts from Chinese suppliers. Tonight, that trend is continuing, in fact, it's accelerating as suppliers to American automakers cut their costs by exporting their work to cheap overseas labor markets. Peter Viles reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
PETER VILES, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): This week's Beijing auto show, on the surface a celebration of the fastest growing car market in the world. One reason Detroit is spending so much money in China.
PHIL MURTAUGH, CHMN & CEO GENERAL MOTORS CHINA: We've got approval to spend $3 billion over the next 3 years to continue our expansion of operations in China.
VILES: But look beneath the surface, you'll see that outsourcing was also for sale at this show, the American Web site, globalautoindustry.com was offering the, quote, "China package" and quote, "one-on-one match making meetings to introduce Western suppliers to Chinese suppliers. Driving the outsourcing, American automakers, whose ruthless cost cutting is pressuring suppliers to shift production, and ultimately technology overseas.
ALAN TONELSON, U.S. BUSINESS AND INDUSTRY COUNCIL: The big three auto companies will not only send jobs overseas to China, they will force the U.S. parts makers to teach their Chinese competition how to do their jobs. Since these auto parts makers rely so heavily on such a small number of companies to sell to, they have no business but to actively involve in cutting their own throats.
VILES: It's showing up in the trade numbers, over 4 years the trade deficit with China in tires is up 164 percent. In engines, yes engines, up, it's up 130 percent and in other parts, up 129 percent.
Feeling the pressure, California based Superior Industries. It makes aluminum wheels for GM and Ford, but under pressure to keep its costs down is strongly considering opening a factory in China.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
VILES: General Motors, for one, denies that it is forcing any suppliers to move work off shore, but it doesn't deny it's pushing for lower cost, saying it is a global company, and wants its suppliers to have globally competitive prices -- Lou.
DOBBS: Remarkable, Pete. This is accelerating, and it seems there is no force out there to stop it.
VILES: To the contrary, there is a whole industry that is being built up to speed it up. All these consultants who are rushing to help the manufacturers move the work to China.
DOBBS: You're right, with that exception. It's a pathetic exception, if I may say so. Even if I may not, I said it. Thank you very much. Peter Viles.
President Bush has arrived now on Capitol Hill. The body of former President Ronald Reagan has laid in state now for nearly 24 hours. President Bush today flew back from the G-8 summit in Georgia. He even left a little earlier than he had planned to.
The president's motorcade traveled from Andrews Air Force base. He landed just about 45 minutes ago. The president, first lady will be paying their respects in the Capitol Rotunda.
Joining me now, Congressional correspondent Joe Johns, White House Suzanne Malveaux and our own Wolf Blitzer. Thank you for being here. And if I may turn to you, Joe. This has been a remarkable outpouring for President Reagan. Tell us about it.
JOE JOHNS, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: It certainly has been a huge outpouring. In fact, we were told by 9:00 this morning some 30,000 people have filed past the casket of the former president.
As you know, President Bush was not here for the arrival ceremony of the casket of President Reagan last evening. He, of course, had to host the G-8 summit there in Georgia. Stood in for him, the vice president of the United States gave a short speech. The president is again is expected to give a speech of his own at the funeral tomorrow at the Washington National Cathedral, Lou.
DOBBS: Thank you very much, Joe. Wolf, turning to you, what are we expecting with the president and Mrs. Bush?
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: We're expecting what so many others have done, the famous and not so famous, thousands of people here in the nation's Capitol, Lou, as well as out in California at the Reagan Presidential Library did earlier in the week, more than 100,000 out there, they will walk into the rotunda and they will pay their respects to the 40th president of the United States.
They will presumably stop near the casket, reflect a little bit. Some of the visitors actually go up and they touch the flag. Mickhail Gorbachev did so a little while ago. We saw Senator Kennedy go by. Others simply just pause and think about that contribution to the United States.
There is the color guard. The representatives of the four branches of the military. And circling that platform, that catafalque as it's called, the platform upon which that casket is lying in state. And, Lou, our viewers should remember, that American flag they see was the same American flag that flew over the U.S. Capitol on January 20, 1981, the day Ronald Reagan was inaugurated.
DOBBS: Wolf, thank you. And Suzanne Malveaux, the president's plans from the Capitol Hill from the rotunda tonight?
SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, after he offers his respects to the president, of course he is going to travel with the first lady to Blair House. That is across from the White House. That is where they're going to be meeting to have a private meeting with the widow Nancy Reagan. They'll offer their personal, private condolences.
And then, as was mentioned, of course, President Bush is going to be delivering the eulogy tomorrow at the National Cathedral.
What we have been told by White House Press Secretary Scott McClellan aboard Air Force One, is that the president gave an outlying to speech writers of his remarks earlier in the week. It was then aboard Air Force One that the president made some final edits of his eulogy that he'll be delivering tomorrow.
The Reagan family representative said that, of course, when Reagan was first talking about funeral arrangements when he first became president, he turned to George Herbert Walker Bush and asked for him to make remarks at his funeral. That is what we're expecting tomorrow, to hear from George H.W. Bush and then President Bush himself.
We are told those remarks will talk about Reagan as a leader, as a model, that it will not be the president's own personal reflections, but rather the contributions that Reagan made to the world -- Lou.
DOBBS: Suzanne, thank you very much. And Wolf, you've mentioned the former first lady, Nancy Reagan, remarkable flight across country, walking behind her husband's casket and into the motorcade. It has had to have been an enormous ordeal for a woman in her 80s. How is she, in your judgment, as you've seen her, how is she bearing up under what has to be a very difficult, very difficult hours?
BLITZER: She's 82, she's almost 83 years-old. And as our viewers, Lou, remember the last ten years, she has gone through a very difficult period. Our viewers can see the president and the first lady walking in now.
DOBBS: President and first lady paying their final respects to the president, President Ronald Reagan's body, as it lies in state at the rotunda, where it has now rested for the past 24 hours hours.
Wolf, as you said, the president and first lady now moving to Blair House, where they will offer their condolences and respects to the former first lady Nancy Reagan. What is your anticipation of what we will see there?
BLITZER: At Blair House, which is on Pennsylvania avenue, Lou, right across from the White House, is the official guest residence for all visitors, for all official guests that the president and the first lady host, normally guests from overseas, in this particular case, the former first lady is staying there as well.
They'll go inside. Brian Mulrooney, the former Prime Minister of Canada was over at Blair House early today. He told me that when he met with Mrs. Reagan, and he'll be among those delivering one of those eulogies tomorrow, he said, said she was remarkably strong.
He agreed, like all of us who have seen Mrs. Reagan on television these past few days, she seemed so frail, but he says, she's strong, she's enduring, she understands what's happening and she's certainly a woman who fully appreciates the history unfolding here in the United States right now. This is the first time, Lou, in more than 30 years, that our country has had a state funeral. And of course, it's something that all of us deeply appreciate.
DOBBS: And this state funeral, tonight, of course, the president's body in state. At 10:45 tomorrow, according to at least the schedule now, will depart Capitol Hill for the National Cathedral memorial service.
The casket is expected to arrive at the National Cathedral shortly after 11:00 -- 11:15 where the president will offer a eulogy. Former prime minister -- U.K. Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher will also offer her -- here eulogy. The relationship between Margaret Thatcher, Wolf, and President Ronald Reagan, the closeness since World War II. And the great relationship that was built between Winston Churchill and Franklin Delano Roosevelt during the war.
Do we have a sense of what the prime minister is going to say?
BLITZER: She's recorded some remarks. Lou, as you know, and as our viewers no doubt know, she did have a stroke not that long ago. So she has suffered through that period. She did record some words that will be delivered at that eulogy -- at the funeral service, state funeral of the National Cathedral. But you're absolutely right, they were comrades in arms during the height of the Cold War. They agreed on how to deal with the then Soviet Union. And the policies they pursued, the defense spending they pursued, the creation of those intermediate missiles. No doubt -- no doubt contributed to the end of the Cold War and the eventual collapse of the Soviet Union.
DOBBS: After the services at the National Cathedral, the president's body, the president's body, President Ronald Reagan's body will be flown back to California for a sunset burial at the Ronald Reagan Presidential Library. Wolf, Suzanne, Joe Johns, thank you all very much. And tomorrow our coverage will, of course, of the state funeral continue. The Ronald Reagan state funeral will begin 10:00 Eastern time right here on CNN, with Wolf Blitzer, Paula Zahn and Judy Woodruff anchoring.
Coming up next here, Homeland Security. A massive effort is now under way to secure our borders. But still, thousands, hundreds of thousands of illegal aliens are entering the country. We'll have a special report. And "Grange on Point," a turning point in Najaf, the scene of some of the most deadly violence in Iraq. General David Grange is next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Tonight on our series of special reports, we focus on "Homeland Insecurity," protecting our national borders. The federal government has been pouring resources into latest security technology and still thousands of illegal aliens cross into this country each day. And the situation could be a threat to national security.
Casey Wian, reports from Los Angeles.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The Homeland Security Department estimates illegal aliens smuggling and trafficking, generate nearly $10 billion in criminal profits each year. It's one reason such as the delayed overbudget Arizona board control initiative failed to stem the flow of aliens. Another is what's happens once they get here.
STEVE CAMAROTA, CTR. FOR IMMIGRATION STUDIES: Once they run the gauntlet in the desert, than they are home free. We let them get jobs. We give them driver's licenses. They can get temporary tax ID numbers and so forth. So that we make no effort really at interior enforcement.
If you stop doing those things we would probably see a dramatic reduction in illegal aliens. But the reason we don't stop is because interest groups, mainly ethnic advocacy groups, and the business community push hard so that they can continue to have access to cheap labor.
WIAN: The policy continues to endanger the lives of law enforcement and illegal aliens themselves. These incidents happened in just the past week. Two people were killed when a pickup truck packed with 21 illegal aliens crashed on Interstate 10, near Benson, Arizona last Wednesday. That same day a border patrol agent was shot at 11 times by suspected smugglers near Sierra Vista, Arizona. The agent escaped injury, the smugglers escaped to Mexico. The next day near Niland, California, 12 suspected illegal aliens were injured when their truck crashed while trying to evade border patrol agents. In Ontario, California, Sunday police arrested 12 illegal aliens at a cock fighting arena. Then Monday, in San Clemente, a suspected smuggler of six illegal aliens led sheriffs on a chase after failing to stop at a border patrol check point. He faces charges of assault with a deadly weapon.
(on camera): The border patrol used to limit pursuits to area's near the border or near freeway check points, but that's changing. In just the past week, the border patrol has arrested 150 suspected illegal aliens in two southern California cities more than 100 miles from the Mexican border.
(voice-over): Still agents say resources, particularly man power remain scarce.
T. J. BONNER, NATIONAL BORDER PATROL COUNCIL: If it's simple for an uneducated peasant from Mexico or Central America or any other part of the world to just wander across our borders at will, how much easier is it for a well financed and well trained terrorist to do the same?
WIAN: Meanwhile, arrests of illegal aliens trying to cross that border are up more than 50 percent this year.
Casey Wian, CNN, Los Angeles.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: Securing our borders, of course, critical in the fight against terrorism. My next guest says when it comes to the role of terrorism and foreign policy, average Americans have proven that they have a far better sense of the world than some of the leaders who have written the policies.
Joining me now is Walter Russell Mead. He's author of "Power, Terror, Peace and War: America's Grand Strategy in World at Risk." He's also the Henry Kissinger senior fellow in U.S. foreign policy at the Council on Foreign Relations. Good to have you with us.
WALTER RUSSELL MEAD, HENRY KISSINGER SENIOR FELLOW, COUNCIL ON FOREIGN RELATIONS: Good to be here.
DOBBS: Walter, why do you say that Americans at large are more sensitive and acute to defining threats than the so-called elites and policy makers?
MEAD: Well, it's interesting actually, in the 1990's, there were some polls done comparing the views of elites and regular people and -- or non-elites. And the polls consistently showed the non-elites thought that the 21st century is going to be much more dangerous. Most of the elites thought, hey, it's going to be less bloody. We have less to worry about. Non-elites were more focused on terrorism, they were more focused on WMD proliferation. The elites worried about other things.
DOBBS: The elites, as you sort of put it, it's sort of -- it's a badge of honor in this day and age to be non-elite. (UNINTELLIGIBLE). I love the concept of non-elite.
MEAD: Well, I don't know what else you call them. But..
DOBBS: Good old Americans, and maybe it's about time we started listening to them on a host of issues. But focusing on a world at risk as you style it, and certainly our own foreign policy at risk. You've got to be encouraged by the development of the last really two weeks with the G-8 resolution, with the U.N. resolution.
What is your reaction?
MEAD: I think really, in about the last six weeks we've seen a very positive turn in American foreign policy. The negotiations at Najaf and at Fallujah, working more closely with the Iraqis. Working with the U.N. The now working more closely with G-8 and with allies. It feels like we had a real rough patch for awhile, but somehow now the foreign policy seems to be regaining a little bit of balance.
DOBBS: And where has been that influence within the administration to offer balance?
Why has it been absent certainly post military victory in Iraq?
MEAD: Well, administration is a complicated thing. There are a lot different people with different ideas. And I certainly had the impression, there were some people in the administration who really thought that, you know, when we got into Iraq our problems were over once we got in. And I think, there's been some reality therapy here, and people realizing that, in fact, it's a politically complex situation. And that America really -- we need to show the Iraqis that we want them to have the future -- be in charge in the future, not us.
DOBBS: Are you hopeful now for U.S. foreign policy?
MEAD: I'm getting more hopeful. The war is unpredictable. Anything can happen. This is very dangerous. But I think if we have a government that the Iraqis are ready to support, if we're moving toward elections, it's clear that we're not trying to have a base or any of this kind of stuff then I think we're going to see the Iraqi armed forces and the Iraqi police starting to take over the job of defending the country.
DOBBS: Walter Russell Mead, we thank you for being here. His book is "Power, Terror, Peace and War." Thanks for being here. We have a thought for you we'd like to share on foreign policy tonight. It's a bit of an old one as these thoughts are but often the old ones are pretty pungent. "Here is my first principle of foreign policy. Good government at home." Those are the words of former British prime minister William Ewart Gladstone. When we continue, U.S. forces say no to Iraqi police but it's all part of an agreement to hand over power and sovereignty. I'll be talking with General David Grange on point next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: In "Grange on Point" tonight, Iraqi police asked U.S. forces to help fight a group of insurgents and as we reported, they, the Americans, declined. One of the first times that U.S. troops have told Iraqi police they wouldn't intervene. This part of an agreement in place since the weekend. Joining me now General David Grange on point. General, what was your reaction when you heard the United States troops declined the request for help?
BRIG. GEN. DAVID GRANGE (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Lou, it's one of those things you always suspect the first report. It's not always correct. That probably did happen but that Iraqi police chief works for some Iraqi leader, somewhere in the system. That was probably -- we don't know if he requested support from him and it was denied and the coordination between the U.S. force and that Iraqi police chief's boss. We don't know what happened there. The point is, they have to start taking some of the fight themselves.
DOBBS: And is it, in effect, a test for those Iraqi police?
GRANGE: I think it's reality. I think it's the point that some of these fights have got to be taken on and conducted by the Iraqis themselves if they want peace.
DOBBS: Some of the troops, as you know, Dave, are going to be American troops, they will be rotating and will be coming out of South Korea next year. What's your reaction as a soldier, as one concerned about national security? Do you feel good or bad, first of all, on the fact that there will be a drawdown of troops in Korea and will it be helpful in Iraq?
GRANGE: It will be very helpful in Iraq. I don't think it's a problem. I think it's out of necessity because of how small the military is today. Fresh troops kind of spread the deployment tempo a little between different units. The alliance with Korea stands. The United States will never let down South Korea. The South Korean army is very well trained. Japan is very much more powerful than it was in 1950. China and Russia have a totally different attitude to North Korea than it did during the Korean War. So I think they're contained. It's good to move the troops out so they're not fixed in place and put them in a position where they can go to the fight later on and counterattack with the type of force the American military has which should be more advantageous to the overall campaign.
DOBBS: General David Grange. Thank you, sir.
GRANGE: My pleasure.
DOBBS: Taking a look now at some more of your thoughts. Many of you writing in about my interview last week with Dartmouth economist who said multinational corporations are good for American workers.
Steve Sotnick of Miami, Florida. "For all the rhetoric I hear about job creation here at home, no one states that the amount of full-time jobs once available are now available as part time. All jobs can't be compared as equal."
Joe Lattuca of Harrisburg, Pennsylvania. "Lou, we export one job to get two back, the numbers are great. Unfortunately the two back are either part time, temporary, or full time without benefits. Can it get any worse?"
We hope not. Let's all try to make sure it doesn't. Send us your thoughts at loudobbs@CNN.com. Still ahead, the results of tonight's poll. But first a reminder. Check our website for the complete list of what are now more than 750 companies we've confirmed to be exporting America. CNN.com/lou. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Now the results of our poll. 92 percent of you support legislation that would prevent government contracts from being awarded to foreign companies. 8 percent do not. Tomorrow, please join us for our special report "Homeland Insecurity," securing this country's skies against terrorist attack. We'll be joined by Congressman David Obey who says that we need more money for airline security. And three of this country's top political journalists will be here. We hope you will be, too. For all of us, good night from New York. "ANDERSON COOPER 360" is next.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired June 10, 2004 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR: Tonight, President Bush says he does not expect NATO to offer more troops for Iraq.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: That's an unrealistic expectation.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: Iraqi police battle insurgents in Najaf and appeal to U.S. troops for help. The Americans refuse. I'll be talking with former coalition adviser Larry Diamond and General David Grange.
A congressional committee takes action in the outrage over a multibillion-dollar homeland security contract awarded to a foreign company. Congresswoman Rosa DeLaura is leading the effort to block it. She's our guest tonight.
In our special report, "Homeland Insecurity," new concerns that our borders are attracting not only illegal aliens, but terrorists as well.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If it's simple for an uneducated peasant from Mexico to just wander across our borders at will, how much easier is it for a well-financed and well-trained terrorist to do the same?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT for Thursday, June 10. Here now for an hour of news, debate and opinion is Lou Dobbs.
DOBBS: Good evening.
President Bush today said it's unlikely NATO will play a greater role in Iraq. The president made that assessment after French President Jacques Chirac declined to give more NATO support to Iraq. The two met on the final day of the G-8 summit in Sea Island, Georgia.
Senior White House Correspondent John King reports -- John.
JOHN KING, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Lou, Mr. Bush, in an extraordinarily upbeat mood as the summit closed, despite that dispute with France here at the G-8 summit. The president meeting with reporters for some 40 minutes this afternoon after the summit wrapped up.
Yes, there is still a disagreement with France. Mr. Bush would like an expanded NATO role in post-war Iraq. The French are quite skeptical. At his news conference, Mr. Bush tried to play down the significance of it and put it all into context. He says all he wants is an expanded NATO role helping to speed up and improve the training of Iraqi military and security forces. The president says he's not asking for a major new infusion of troops.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BUSH: I don't expect more troops from NATO to be offered up. That's an unrealistic expectation. Nobody is suggesting that. What we are suggesting is for NATO perhaps to help train. Now that will come at the request of the Iraqi government.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: Now Mr. Chirac met with Mr. Bush today. In a public appearance yesterday, he said publicly he was skeptical about an expanded NATO role. Mr. Chirac did not say so in Mr. Bush's presence today. Instead, they exchanged compliments and talked of cooperation, even joking that the food when Mr. Bush was in France recently was good and so was the food, too, here in Georgia.
That, Lou, all part of the effort by all of the leaders here to put the bitterness of the war debate behind them and look toward the future. In fact, Mr. Bush was quick with a joke when asked at his news conference earlier today how the G-8 leaders deal with it, what do they do when they have major policy fights?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BUSH: We go to different corners of the room and we face the wall. No, it's -- look, there is -- we're united by values. We're united by common values. And, therefore, it's an easy place to start conversations.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: Now one reason Mr. Bush is making jokes about all this is by the time the NATO summit comes up, a little less than three weeks from now, U.S. officials say they believe even this recent dustup with France will be settled.
They say France objected because Mr. Bush floated the idea first. They say France is sending signals behind the scenes that if the new interim Iraqi government specifically asks for an expanded NATO role in training troops that France might not like it but that it is unlikely to object at the NATO summit.
The German chancellor, Gerhard Schroeder, today said he, too, would not send any German troops into Iraq but that he would not veto any new NATO proposal.
So, Lou, Mr. Bush heading from this summit in an upbeat mood. He believes he is working better with the leaders who opposed him so vehemently during the war, and this one quick footnote.
We were told on the flight back on Air Force One the president worked on the eulogy he will deliver for Ronald Reagan at the funeral tomorrow. And, Lou, the president now at Andrews Air Force Base about to go to the Capitol Rotunda to pay now his respects to Ronald Reagan.
I think we can see some live pictures here of the president deplaning Air Force One with First Lady Laura Bush. They left here a bit ahead of schedule, Mr. Bush wanting to get back to Washington with the first lady. They will go straight to the Capitol Rotunda, some private time with Nancy Reagan at the Blair House and the Reagan family, the Blair House across the street from the White House, tonight -- and, again, Lou, in about 15 minutes, aides say.
The president will speak tomorrow at the funeral services at the National Cathedral. As he put it today, he wants to give the thanks of a grateful nation as Ronald Reagan is laid to rest -- Lou.
DOBBS: John, thank you very much.
And, as John King just reported, we will be covering the president and Mrs. Bush at the Rotunda where President Reagan's body lies in state, and that will be coming up in just about 15 minutes.
More violence to report today in Iraq. At least five people were killed in clashes between Iraqi police and insurgents in Najaf. American troops were not involved in that fighting. That is one of the first times that Iraqi police asked for the help of U.S. troops and did not receive it.
Guy Raz reports from Najaf.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
GUY RAZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The sound of gunfire in Najaf. The shooting this time Iraqi versus Iraqi. More than two hours of fighting after an Iraqi police station came under small-arms fire and rocket-propelled grenade attack. Four hundred Iraqi police were deployed to these streets last week. They took the place of U.S. forces. The switch was supposed to usher in a period of stability.
Najaf's police chief called for U.S. forces to back up his men. The request was denied, senior officers believing a U.S. presence would have exacerbated the problem.
MAJ. GEN. MARTIN DEMPSEY, U.S. ARMY: What we did today was we -- instead of rushing in with our tanks and Bradleys and aircraft -- which we could have done, but, certainly, that would have set us back a bit in terms of the political outcome -- we're going to help the police figure out what they might have done differently.
RAZ: It's still not clear whether the gunmen who attacked Iraqi police were acting in the name of the defiantly anti-American cleric Muqtada al-Sadr. Some eyewitnesses said this fighting was a personal feud.
In Baghdad, Iraq's prime minister designate reiterated his position on Sadr's militia.
IYAD ALLAWI, IRAQI PRIME MINISTER DESIGNATE: Well, we have called upon him and others to abide by the rule of law and to stick to peaceful means. Any continuity of using force would be dealt by the Iraqi government in a very serious and strong way.
RAZ: With only 20 days to go before administrative authority is handed over to Iraqis, some U.S. officers privately wonder whether Iraqi police can handle stability in Najaf.
(on camera): Senior U.S. Army officers here in Najaf say they never expected Sadr's militiamen to disarm. They're treating this latest flare-up as an Iraqi problem, one best resolved without U.S. help. But if Sadr's gunmen continue to attack Iraqi police, U.S. officials say they'll have no choice but to get involved.
Guy Raz, CNN, Najaf in southern Iraq.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: In Washington, U.S. officials are investigating Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi for his role in an alleged plot to assassinate Saudi Crown Prince Abdullah. That investigation comes just months after the White House praised Gadhafi for ending Libya's weapons of mass destruction program.
Justice Correspondent Kelli Arena reports now from Washington -- Kelli.
KELLI ARENA, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Lou, U.S. officials say the focus of the investigation is to determine if the allegations are true and whether Libya's leader, Moammar Gadhafi, was personally involved.
Now investigators would not talk on the record, but the president basically confirmed the investigation in a session with reporters following the G-8 summit.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BUSH: We're going to make sure we fully understand the veracity of the plot line, and so we're looking into it. That's what I can tell you. And when we find out the facts, we will deal with them accordingly.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ARENA: According to investigators the plot was first disclosed by Abdurahman Alamoudi -- he's an American Muslim activist who's in U.S. custody -- and then by a Libyan intelligence officer in Saudi custody. Now officials say that both men offered separate but very similar accounts of a plan to kill the crown prince. Libya denies the charges.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) ABDEL-RAHMAN SHALQAM, LIBYAN FOREIGN MINISTER: I am sure that they are just lies, not allegations, and let them to go forward in the investigations. The details will come, and the truth will appear. I am confident, I am completely sure that these allegations have no roots, have no basis.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ARENA: The plot was allegedly hatched while the State Department was negotiating the lifting of some sanctions against Libya after it said it would dismantle its weapons of mass destruction program.
State Department officials say that they were aware of the allegations at the time, confronted Libya, and was offered assurances Libya would not use violence to settle political differences.
And, Lou, Libya does remain on the U.S. list of state sponsors of terrorism.
DOBBS: Kelly, you used the term "Muslim activist." What is that?
ARENA: Someone who is very vocal and involved in the Muslim community here in the United States. Someone who was very much involved in the advancement of Muslim causes.
DOBBS: But when you said they're in custody, it has nothing to do with being active in their religion.
ARENA: No, not because -- no, no. He was just very well known, and a lot of people were very shocked when he was taken into custody, Lou, because of his very high profile.
DOBBS: Kelli, thank you very much.
ARENA: Sure.
DOBBS: Kelli Arena reporting from Washington.
Still ahead here tonight, the fight for Iraq. Former coalition adviser Larry Diamond says Iraq's new government needs to take several critical steps to secure its future. He will be with us next to explore that issue.
And "Exporting America," Congress fighting to stop a Bermuda- based company from winning a multibillion-dollar contract for homeland security. Leading the fight, Congresswoman Rosa DeLaura is our guest.
And U.S. border defenses failing to keep thousands of illegal aliens and potential terrorists from crossing into this country every day. We'll have our special report, "Homeland Insecurity," coming right up.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: My guest tonight says the U.N. Security Council's unanimous support of Iraq's new government is an encouraging sign for the country's future. However, he says it does nothing to stop the most urgent problem in Iraq, ongoing violence establishing security.
Larry Diamond says Iraq desperately needs an improved police force, a better-trained army. Diamond is a former senior adviser to the Coalition Provisional Authority, a professor of political science and sociology at Stanford University joining us tonight from Palo Alto, California.
Good to have you with us.
LARRY DIAMOND, FORMER SENIOR ADVISER TO COALITION PROVISIONAL AUTHORITY: Good evening, Lou.
DOBBS: These look to be very encouraging, positive signs. What is your take?
DIAMOND: My take is that we've turned an important corner. We now have greater international legitimacy for the next steps. We have an Iraqi interim government that has some support within the country and broad international legitimacy, and we have a framework for continued U.N. involvement in the country taking the place to some extent of the Coalition Provisional Authority in terms of coordinating international engagement. All of these are very positive steps.
DOBBS: The president was unsuccessful in winning further NATO support. Do you believe that Iraq will be successful in winning that support on its own?
DIAMOND: I think that requests from the Iraqi government will have more power, more meaning, than requests from the United States. But I think the reality is that most other states in the world are going to be reluctant to put in new or additional troops and that what we have is basically what we're going to have.
DOBBS: And for how long will we have 100,000, almost 150,000 American troops in Iraq?
DIAMOND: My guess is that we'll have something like the 135,000 we now have for perhaps a year and that the challenge now, as I said, is to build up the Iraqi police force, army and civil defense corps as rapidly as possible to assume more of the security burden.
DOBBS: And the time required for that -- we thought last summer there that there had been significant progress. It turned out by fall that there was great disappointment with the Iraqis.
DIAMOND: No, it hasn't worked. Police training in particular has been a disaster. We do have one of the most accomplished and effective military officers in Iraq over the last year, Major General David Patreus who's gone back to Iraq to assume responsibility for this burden, and I think we need to give him every single thing he asks for in trying to meet this challenge.
DOBBS: And the Kurds in the constitutional conflict primarily with the Shia -- what do you think will be the ultimate outcome? DIAMOND: Well, it's going to have to be negotiated if it's going to be viable, and the basic problem there is that minorities -- and the Kurds are one minority. Any collection of three provinces has been given the right to veto the final constitution in a referendum, and the Shiites feel that this is really unfair, that three provinces by a two-thirds vote could veto the constitution.
I think there's a way, Lou, of protecting the vital interests of the Kurds and their concern to preserve their regional autonomy while narrowing the scope of this veto, and that may be the focus of future negotiations.
DOBBS: Larry Diamond, thank you for being with us.
DIAMOND: It's a pleasure.
DOBBS: One group of Oregon first graders found a way to support American troops serving overseas, but they never imagined the response they would receive from one soldier in particular.
Veronica Griffin of CNN affiliate KGW reports from Forest Grove, Oregon.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CANDY MARSHALL, DILLEY ELEMENTARY SCHOOL TEACHER: Mail call. Mail for Cody. Mail for Riley. Mail for Gina.
VERONICA GRIFFIN, KGW REPORTER: Candy Marshall is always looking for ways to capture the attention of her first-grade class.
MARSHALL: "No, the water is not very yummy."
GRIFFIN: But this story time is one her students at Dilley Elementary actually ask for.
MARSHALL: "No, I don't have a tank, but we do have tanks here."
GRIFFIN: Ms. Marshal's reading letters written to the students by Staff Sergeant Jack O'Neal (ph) stationed in Afghanistan.
MARSHALL: "Thank you for the pretty picture. It made me smile." "No, I don't like it here, but it is my job and the job of all the other people here to make sure that everyone stays safe back home."
Austin and Ryan, are you guys excited?
GRIFFIN: He wrote to each and every student, answering letters they wrote him two months ago.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's cool.
GRIFFIN: First-grader Garrett is the staff sergeant's younger cousin, but all of the students here wanted to write the soldier.
MARSHALL: Really, all we were hoping for was just to make their day better over there. We weren't expecting to get a letter back for everybody.
GRIFFIN: His job in Afghanistan is working with the locals, letting them know the United States is their friend.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He's really nice, and he has really nice handwriting.
GRIFFIN: And if his new friends here are any indication, O'Neal (ph) must be doing a heck of a job for the U.S. making friends overseas.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you for being brave.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: Veronica Griffin of CNN affiliate KGW reporting.
When we continue, a U.S. government contract critical to our national security awarded to a foreign company. Congresswoman Rosa DeLaura is among those leading the fight against the disturbing policy that made it possible. She joins us next.
And American auto manufacturers. They're pushing for outsourcing, pushing for new ways to cut costs. Their story is next. We'll have that coming up.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: The government for the first time is beginning to track the number of American jobs lost to cheap foreign labor markets. A Department of Labor report released today finding that more than 4,600 American jobs were exported to those cheap foreign labor markets in the first three months of the year.
That report, however, is certainly incomplete. It does not, for example, count every job lost to a foreign worker. Companies that laid off fewer than 50 employees are not even included, and companies that employ fewer than 50 people in total are not included as well in this first government effort.
But it is certainly at least a long-awaited, much-needed beginning.
The government study also confirmed what we've been reporting here for more than a year, that the manufacturing sector has been devastated by the export of American jobs to cheap overseas labor markets. While corporate America increases its reliance on cheap foreign labor, a new report finds that outsourcing simply doesn't pay.
Lisa Sylvester reports from Washington.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LISA SYLVESTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The survey by the Bureau of Labor Statistics found off-shoring is still in its early stages with less than 3 percent of all job loss due to overseas outsourcing. But the trend is expected to grow.
A survey by "CFO" magazine asked corporate managers who have already sent work overseas whether they will increase off-shoring in the next two years. Sixty-four percent said yes. And white-collar jobs are increasingly in jeopardy.
TIM REASON, "CFO" MAGAZINE: One reason the backlash is getting so loud in corporate America is that the jobs that are being moved overseas are coming from the cubicle down the hall instead of the factory floor.
SYLVESTER: Despite the hype over off-shoring, it does not always result in big savings. While 44 percent of "CFO" magazine's respondents said they saved more than 20 percent, more corporate managers, 46%, saw savings of less than 20 percent. And one in 10 managers said they saw no savings at all. But the drive for efficiency will still send some jobs overseas.
STUART ANDERSON, NATIONAL FOUNDATION FOR AMERICAN POLICY: American businesses are faced with enormous competitive pressure, not only domestically, but internationally, and they're going to continue to try to find the best way to organize their company.
SYLVESTER: Off-shoring critics argue sending work overseas may save money, but it comes at a loss of quality and control over the final product.
GREGORY JUNEMANN, INTERNATIONAL FEDERATION OF PROFESSIONAL AND TECHNICAL ENGINEERS: What happens is employers send work offshore and then buy the mistakes.
SYLVESTER: So companies looking for savings often pay a bigger price in the long run by moving overseas.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SYLVESTER: "CFO" magazine found one of the fastest-growing areas for off-shoring is accounting and finance. Twenty-one percent of the 275 corporate managers surveyed reported sending some type of finance work overseas. And, Lou, that's right behind call-center jobs -- Lou.
DOBBS: Lisa, thank you very much.
Lisa Sylvester reporting from Washington.
The Department of Homeland Security recently awarded what could be a $10 billion border security contract to Bermuda-abased Accenture. My guest tonight says it is outrageous and wrong to reward a company for abandoning our country.
Congresswoman Rosa DeLaura has authored legislation that would prevent government contracts from being awarded to foreign companies. In her statement, she said, "The United States should not be doing business with those who want all the benefits of citizenship without any of the responsibilities."
Congresswoman DeLaura joins us tonight from Yale University in Connecticut.
Congresswoman, thank you for being with us.
REP. ROSA DELAURA (D), CONNECTICUT: Thank you, Lou.
DOBBS: I think many people may be surprised at the fact of both was a bipartisan vote.
DELAURA: It was a strong vote.
DOBBS: And what do you make of that?
DELAURA: Well, there's a strong vote. It was 23 democrats, 12 Republicans. And let me just say this to you, Lou. I want to just say thank you to you for really crystallizing this issue.
I think one of the results is the strong vote that we had in the House on providing a contract to a company that, for all purposes, has taken themselves offshore to avoid paying taxes in the United States, now wants to come around and feed at the federal trough and get up to a $10 billion contract.
It's just plain wrong. It puts at a disadvantage those credible and good corporate citizens who are paying their taxes in the United States, and it puts American corporations at a disadvantage.
DOBBS: It is a remarkable circumstance, and, today, a Accenture spokesman basically said that the response of your committee members in disavowing the contract from a Bermuda-based company -- this is sort of striking -- I thought basically saying this wasn't an American way to go about dealing with the issue. What are your thoughts?
DELAURA: I mean I think -- I don't know from what perspective they see this. What they have done is to set up a very, very complex corporate structure, as I think you know, with -- in Bermuda, Luxembourg, Switzerland -- all to avoid paying taxes.
They trade on the New York Stock Exchange, their CEO is based in Dallas, and yet what they want to do at every turn is to cut back on their tax liability. But then they want to come back and say, hey, here we are, we are an American company, and, you know, therefore, we should be -- you know, we should be able to get this contract for almost $10 billion.
It's just wrong. It's wrong.
DOBBS: Congresswoman, what are your best estimates of the chances of success in the full House of defeating this wrongheadedness?
DELAURA: This is a very good question, Lou, because I think if we are able to get the bill to the full House of Representatives, we will win. We did that two years ago in July of 2002. We were able to say no contract from the Department of Homeland Security to these corporate expatriots. It then was watered down so we have a situation we have today.
If we can get it past the administration and the House leadership, get this bill to the floor of the House, we will win it, and I'm hopeful that you will be vigilant. I'm very hopeful on a different note that the strong vote that we had, a bipartisan vote, that will have some resonance because we don't sit in that room representing ourselves.
We represent the people of this country, and I think that anyone who would say to any person on the street we're going to give a $10 billion contract to a company that doesn't want to pay its taxes in the United States will just turn around and laugh at us, and it is wrong, and we shouldn't do it.
I believe if we can get it to the floor of the House, we will be successful.
DOBBS: Well, we obviously wish you all of the best in your efforts to do so.
And you raise a very important point. Every survey that we looked at says that, Congresswoman -- and I'm sure you're looking at many of the same -- says that the -- shows that the American working man or woman in this country is critically concerned about this issue and understands the lack of fairness. But the elites -- and, frankly, from both parties -- continue to support what you, I think, articulated very well as just simply a wrongheaded approach to this kind of contract and the taking advantage of loopholes.
We wish you well on that.
DELAURA: Thank you.
DOBBS: And we congratulate you on your success. Thank you very much, Congresswoman DeLaura.
DELAURA: Thank you.
DOBBS: Thank you.
DELAURA: Appreciate it.
DOBBS: Bringing us now to the topic of our poll, "do you support legislation that would prevent government contracts from being awarded to foreign companies? Yes or no." Cast your vote at cnn.com/lou. We'll have the results for you later in the broadcast, of course.
Many of you have written in about the efforts to bar Accenture's border security contract awarded by the federal government. Tom Heller of Portland, Oregon, said, "How do we even get to the point where the House has to vote to prevent handing $10 billion to Bermuda- based Accenture for our homeland security?"
Daniel Johns of Grayslake, Illinois, "Kudos to the House Appropriations Committee for recognizing that Accenture is better suited at securing their own profits than our citizens' safety."
And N. Falco in Hawthorne, New York, "Thank you for leading the battle against outsourcing. It's hard to believe that my own government is participating in this. Wonder how they would feel if they had to train someone to do their job, forcing them into the unemployment line."
Send us your thoughts at loudobbs@cnn.com.
DOBBS: We've reported extensively on the outsourcing of valuable high paying automobile manufacturing jobs to cheap overseas market such as Mexico and China. In February, we reported that American car makers have significantly raised their purchases of parts from Chinese suppliers. Tonight, that trend is continuing, in fact, it's accelerating as suppliers to American automakers cut their costs by exporting their work to cheap overseas labor markets. Peter Viles reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
PETER VILES, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): This week's Beijing auto show, on the surface a celebration of the fastest growing car market in the world. One reason Detroit is spending so much money in China.
PHIL MURTAUGH, CHMN & CEO GENERAL MOTORS CHINA: We've got approval to spend $3 billion over the next 3 years to continue our expansion of operations in China.
VILES: But look beneath the surface, you'll see that outsourcing was also for sale at this show, the American Web site, globalautoindustry.com was offering the, quote, "China package" and quote, "one-on-one match making meetings to introduce Western suppliers to Chinese suppliers. Driving the outsourcing, American automakers, whose ruthless cost cutting is pressuring suppliers to shift production, and ultimately technology overseas.
ALAN TONELSON, U.S. BUSINESS AND INDUSTRY COUNCIL: The big three auto companies will not only send jobs overseas to China, they will force the U.S. parts makers to teach their Chinese competition how to do their jobs. Since these auto parts makers rely so heavily on such a small number of companies to sell to, they have no business but to actively involve in cutting their own throats.
VILES: It's showing up in the trade numbers, over 4 years the trade deficit with China in tires is up 164 percent. In engines, yes engines, up, it's up 130 percent and in other parts, up 129 percent.
Feeling the pressure, California based Superior Industries. It makes aluminum wheels for GM and Ford, but under pressure to keep its costs down is strongly considering opening a factory in China.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
VILES: General Motors, for one, denies that it is forcing any suppliers to move work off shore, but it doesn't deny it's pushing for lower cost, saying it is a global company, and wants its suppliers to have globally competitive prices -- Lou.
DOBBS: Remarkable, Pete. This is accelerating, and it seems there is no force out there to stop it.
VILES: To the contrary, there is a whole industry that is being built up to speed it up. All these consultants who are rushing to help the manufacturers move the work to China.
DOBBS: You're right, with that exception. It's a pathetic exception, if I may say so. Even if I may not, I said it. Thank you very much. Peter Viles.
President Bush has arrived now on Capitol Hill. The body of former President Ronald Reagan has laid in state now for nearly 24 hours. President Bush today flew back from the G-8 summit in Georgia. He even left a little earlier than he had planned to.
The president's motorcade traveled from Andrews Air Force base. He landed just about 45 minutes ago. The president, first lady will be paying their respects in the Capitol Rotunda.
Joining me now, Congressional correspondent Joe Johns, White House Suzanne Malveaux and our own Wolf Blitzer. Thank you for being here. And if I may turn to you, Joe. This has been a remarkable outpouring for President Reagan. Tell us about it.
JOE JOHNS, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: It certainly has been a huge outpouring. In fact, we were told by 9:00 this morning some 30,000 people have filed past the casket of the former president.
As you know, President Bush was not here for the arrival ceremony of the casket of President Reagan last evening. He, of course, had to host the G-8 summit there in Georgia. Stood in for him, the vice president of the United States gave a short speech. The president is again is expected to give a speech of his own at the funeral tomorrow at the Washington National Cathedral, Lou.
DOBBS: Thank you very much, Joe. Wolf, turning to you, what are we expecting with the president and Mrs. Bush?
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: We're expecting what so many others have done, the famous and not so famous, thousands of people here in the nation's Capitol, Lou, as well as out in California at the Reagan Presidential Library did earlier in the week, more than 100,000 out there, they will walk into the rotunda and they will pay their respects to the 40th president of the United States.
They will presumably stop near the casket, reflect a little bit. Some of the visitors actually go up and they touch the flag. Mickhail Gorbachev did so a little while ago. We saw Senator Kennedy go by. Others simply just pause and think about that contribution to the United States.
There is the color guard. The representatives of the four branches of the military. And circling that platform, that catafalque as it's called, the platform upon which that casket is lying in state. And, Lou, our viewers should remember, that American flag they see was the same American flag that flew over the U.S. Capitol on January 20, 1981, the day Ronald Reagan was inaugurated.
DOBBS: Wolf, thank you. And Suzanne Malveaux, the president's plans from the Capitol Hill from the rotunda tonight?
SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, after he offers his respects to the president, of course he is going to travel with the first lady to Blair House. That is across from the White House. That is where they're going to be meeting to have a private meeting with the widow Nancy Reagan. They'll offer their personal, private condolences.
And then, as was mentioned, of course, President Bush is going to be delivering the eulogy tomorrow at the National Cathedral.
What we have been told by White House Press Secretary Scott McClellan aboard Air Force One, is that the president gave an outlying to speech writers of his remarks earlier in the week. It was then aboard Air Force One that the president made some final edits of his eulogy that he'll be delivering tomorrow.
The Reagan family representative said that, of course, when Reagan was first talking about funeral arrangements when he first became president, he turned to George Herbert Walker Bush and asked for him to make remarks at his funeral. That is what we're expecting tomorrow, to hear from George H.W. Bush and then President Bush himself.
We are told those remarks will talk about Reagan as a leader, as a model, that it will not be the president's own personal reflections, but rather the contributions that Reagan made to the world -- Lou.
DOBBS: Suzanne, thank you very much. And Wolf, you've mentioned the former first lady, Nancy Reagan, remarkable flight across country, walking behind her husband's casket and into the motorcade. It has had to have been an enormous ordeal for a woman in her 80s. How is she, in your judgment, as you've seen her, how is she bearing up under what has to be a very difficult, very difficult hours?
BLITZER: She's 82, she's almost 83 years-old. And as our viewers, Lou, remember the last ten years, she has gone through a very difficult period. Our viewers can see the president and the first lady walking in now.
DOBBS: President and first lady paying their final respects to the president, President Ronald Reagan's body, as it lies in state at the rotunda, where it has now rested for the past 24 hours hours.
Wolf, as you said, the president and first lady now moving to Blair House, where they will offer their condolences and respects to the former first lady Nancy Reagan. What is your anticipation of what we will see there?
BLITZER: At Blair House, which is on Pennsylvania avenue, Lou, right across from the White House, is the official guest residence for all visitors, for all official guests that the president and the first lady host, normally guests from overseas, in this particular case, the former first lady is staying there as well.
They'll go inside. Brian Mulrooney, the former Prime Minister of Canada was over at Blair House early today. He told me that when he met with Mrs. Reagan, and he'll be among those delivering one of those eulogies tomorrow, he said, said she was remarkably strong.
He agreed, like all of us who have seen Mrs. Reagan on television these past few days, she seemed so frail, but he says, she's strong, she's enduring, she understands what's happening and she's certainly a woman who fully appreciates the history unfolding here in the United States right now. This is the first time, Lou, in more than 30 years, that our country has had a state funeral. And of course, it's something that all of us deeply appreciate.
DOBBS: And this state funeral, tonight, of course, the president's body in state. At 10:45 tomorrow, according to at least the schedule now, will depart Capitol Hill for the National Cathedral memorial service.
The casket is expected to arrive at the National Cathedral shortly after 11:00 -- 11:15 where the president will offer a eulogy. Former prime minister -- U.K. Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher will also offer her -- here eulogy. The relationship between Margaret Thatcher, Wolf, and President Ronald Reagan, the closeness since World War II. And the great relationship that was built between Winston Churchill and Franklin Delano Roosevelt during the war.
Do we have a sense of what the prime minister is going to say?
BLITZER: She's recorded some remarks. Lou, as you know, and as our viewers no doubt know, she did have a stroke not that long ago. So she has suffered through that period. She did record some words that will be delivered at that eulogy -- at the funeral service, state funeral of the National Cathedral. But you're absolutely right, they were comrades in arms during the height of the Cold War. They agreed on how to deal with the then Soviet Union. And the policies they pursued, the defense spending they pursued, the creation of those intermediate missiles. No doubt -- no doubt contributed to the end of the Cold War and the eventual collapse of the Soviet Union.
DOBBS: After the services at the National Cathedral, the president's body, the president's body, President Ronald Reagan's body will be flown back to California for a sunset burial at the Ronald Reagan Presidential Library. Wolf, Suzanne, Joe Johns, thank you all very much. And tomorrow our coverage will, of course, of the state funeral continue. The Ronald Reagan state funeral will begin 10:00 Eastern time right here on CNN, with Wolf Blitzer, Paula Zahn and Judy Woodruff anchoring.
Coming up next here, Homeland Security. A massive effort is now under way to secure our borders. But still, thousands, hundreds of thousands of illegal aliens are entering the country. We'll have a special report. And "Grange on Point," a turning point in Najaf, the scene of some of the most deadly violence in Iraq. General David Grange is next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Tonight on our series of special reports, we focus on "Homeland Insecurity," protecting our national borders. The federal government has been pouring resources into latest security technology and still thousands of illegal aliens cross into this country each day. And the situation could be a threat to national security.
Casey Wian, reports from Los Angeles.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The Homeland Security Department estimates illegal aliens smuggling and trafficking, generate nearly $10 billion in criminal profits each year. It's one reason such as the delayed overbudget Arizona board control initiative failed to stem the flow of aliens. Another is what's happens once they get here.
STEVE CAMAROTA, CTR. FOR IMMIGRATION STUDIES: Once they run the gauntlet in the desert, than they are home free. We let them get jobs. We give them driver's licenses. They can get temporary tax ID numbers and so forth. So that we make no effort really at interior enforcement.
If you stop doing those things we would probably see a dramatic reduction in illegal aliens. But the reason we don't stop is because interest groups, mainly ethnic advocacy groups, and the business community push hard so that they can continue to have access to cheap labor.
WIAN: The policy continues to endanger the lives of law enforcement and illegal aliens themselves. These incidents happened in just the past week. Two people were killed when a pickup truck packed with 21 illegal aliens crashed on Interstate 10, near Benson, Arizona last Wednesday. That same day a border patrol agent was shot at 11 times by suspected smugglers near Sierra Vista, Arizona. The agent escaped injury, the smugglers escaped to Mexico. The next day near Niland, California, 12 suspected illegal aliens were injured when their truck crashed while trying to evade border patrol agents. In Ontario, California, Sunday police arrested 12 illegal aliens at a cock fighting arena. Then Monday, in San Clemente, a suspected smuggler of six illegal aliens led sheriffs on a chase after failing to stop at a border patrol check point. He faces charges of assault with a deadly weapon.
(on camera): The border patrol used to limit pursuits to area's near the border or near freeway check points, but that's changing. In just the past week, the border patrol has arrested 150 suspected illegal aliens in two southern California cities more than 100 miles from the Mexican border.
(voice-over): Still agents say resources, particularly man power remain scarce.
T. J. BONNER, NATIONAL BORDER PATROL COUNCIL: If it's simple for an uneducated peasant from Mexico or Central America or any other part of the world to just wander across our borders at will, how much easier is it for a well financed and well trained terrorist to do the same?
WIAN: Meanwhile, arrests of illegal aliens trying to cross that border are up more than 50 percent this year.
Casey Wian, CNN, Los Angeles.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: Securing our borders, of course, critical in the fight against terrorism. My next guest says when it comes to the role of terrorism and foreign policy, average Americans have proven that they have a far better sense of the world than some of the leaders who have written the policies.
Joining me now is Walter Russell Mead. He's author of "Power, Terror, Peace and War: America's Grand Strategy in World at Risk." He's also the Henry Kissinger senior fellow in U.S. foreign policy at the Council on Foreign Relations. Good to have you with us.
WALTER RUSSELL MEAD, HENRY KISSINGER SENIOR FELLOW, COUNCIL ON FOREIGN RELATIONS: Good to be here.
DOBBS: Walter, why do you say that Americans at large are more sensitive and acute to defining threats than the so-called elites and policy makers?
MEAD: Well, it's interesting actually, in the 1990's, there were some polls done comparing the views of elites and regular people and -- or non-elites. And the polls consistently showed the non-elites thought that the 21st century is going to be much more dangerous. Most of the elites thought, hey, it's going to be less bloody. We have less to worry about. Non-elites were more focused on terrorism, they were more focused on WMD proliferation. The elites worried about other things.
DOBBS: The elites, as you sort of put it, it's sort of -- it's a badge of honor in this day and age to be non-elite. (UNINTELLIGIBLE). I love the concept of non-elite.
MEAD: Well, I don't know what else you call them. But..
DOBBS: Good old Americans, and maybe it's about time we started listening to them on a host of issues. But focusing on a world at risk as you style it, and certainly our own foreign policy at risk. You've got to be encouraged by the development of the last really two weeks with the G-8 resolution, with the U.N. resolution.
What is your reaction?
MEAD: I think really, in about the last six weeks we've seen a very positive turn in American foreign policy. The negotiations at Najaf and at Fallujah, working more closely with the Iraqis. Working with the U.N. The now working more closely with G-8 and with allies. It feels like we had a real rough patch for awhile, but somehow now the foreign policy seems to be regaining a little bit of balance.
DOBBS: And where has been that influence within the administration to offer balance?
Why has it been absent certainly post military victory in Iraq?
MEAD: Well, administration is a complicated thing. There are a lot different people with different ideas. And I certainly had the impression, there were some people in the administration who really thought that, you know, when we got into Iraq our problems were over once we got in. And I think, there's been some reality therapy here, and people realizing that, in fact, it's a politically complex situation. And that America really -- we need to show the Iraqis that we want them to have the future -- be in charge in the future, not us.
DOBBS: Are you hopeful now for U.S. foreign policy?
MEAD: I'm getting more hopeful. The war is unpredictable. Anything can happen. This is very dangerous. But I think if we have a government that the Iraqis are ready to support, if we're moving toward elections, it's clear that we're not trying to have a base or any of this kind of stuff then I think we're going to see the Iraqi armed forces and the Iraqi police starting to take over the job of defending the country.
DOBBS: Walter Russell Mead, we thank you for being here. His book is "Power, Terror, Peace and War." Thanks for being here. We have a thought for you we'd like to share on foreign policy tonight. It's a bit of an old one as these thoughts are but often the old ones are pretty pungent. "Here is my first principle of foreign policy. Good government at home." Those are the words of former British prime minister William Ewart Gladstone. When we continue, U.S. forces say no to Iraqi police but it's all part of an agreement to hand over power and sovereignty. I'll be talking with General David Grange on point next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: In "Grange on Point" tonight, Iraqi police asked U.S. forces to help fight a group of insurgents and as we reported, they, the Americans, declined. One of the first times that U.S. troops have told Iraqi police they wouldn't intervene. This part of an agreement in place since the weekend. Joining me now General David Grange on point. General, what was your reaction when you heard the United States troops declined the request for help?
BRIG. GEN. DAVID GRANGE (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Lou, it's one of those things you always suspect the first report. It's not always correct. That probably did happen but that Iraqi police chief works for some Iraqi leader, somewhere in the system. That was probably -- we don't know if he requested support from him and it was denied and the coordination between the U.S. force and that Iraqi police chief's boss. We don't know what happened there. The point is, they have to start taking some of the fight themselves.
DOBBS: And is it, in effect, a test for those Iraqi police?
GRANGE: I think it's reality. I think it's the point that some of these fights have got to be taken on and conducted by the Iraqis themselves if they want peace.
DOBBS: Some of the troops, as you know, Dave, are going to be American troops, they will be rotating and will be coming out of South Korea next year. What's your reaction as a soldier, as one concerned about national security? Do you feel good or bad, first of all, on the fact that there will be a drawdown of troops in Korea and will it be helpful in Iraq?
GRANGE: It will be very helpful in Iraq. I don't think it's a problem. I think it's out of necessity because of how small the military is today. Fresh troops kind of spread the deployment tempo a little between different units. The alliance with Korea stands. The United States will never let down South Korea. The South Korean army is very well trained. Japan is very much more powerful than it was in 1950. China and Russia have a totally different attitude to North Korea than it did during the Korean War. So I think they're contained. It's good to move the troops out so they're not fixed in place and put them in a position where they can go to the fight later on and counterattack with the type of force the American military has which should be more advantageous to the overall campaign.
DOBBS: General David Grange. Thank you, sir.
GRANGE: My pleasure.
DOBBS: Taking a look now at some more of your thoughts. Many of you writing in about my interview last week with Dartmouth economist who said multinational corporations are good for American workers.
Steve Sotnick of Miami, Florida. "For all the rhetoric I hear about job creation here at home, no one states that the amount of full-time jobs once available are now available as part time. All jobs can't be compared as equal."
Joe Lattuca of Harrisburg, Pennsylvania. "Lou, we export one job to get two back, the numbers are great. Unfortunately the two back are either part time, temporary, or full time without benefits. Can it get any worse?"
We hope not. Let's all try to make sure it doesn't. Send us your thoughts at loudobbs@CNN.com. Still ahead, the results of tonight's poll. But first a reminder. Check our website for the complete list of what are now more than 750 companies we've confirmed to be exporting America. CNN.com/lou. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Now the results of our poll. 92 percent of you support legislation that would prevent government contracts from being awarded to foreign companies. 8 percent do not. Tomorrow, please join us for our special report "Homeland Insecurity," securing this country's skies against terrorist attack. We'll be joined by Congressman David Obey who says that we need more money for airline security. And three of this country's top political journalists will be here. We hope you will be, too. For all of us, good night from New York. "ANDERSON COOPER 360" is next.
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