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Lou Dobbs Tonight
White House Releases Documents to Support Its Contention It Did Not Authorize Torture; Two Large Newspaper Companies Inflated Circulation Numbers
Aired June 22, 2004 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR: Tonight, the White House has released a thick file of documents to support the president's contention he never authorized the torture of Iraqi or al Qaeda prisoners.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We do not condone torture. I have never ordered torture. I will never order torture.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: E-voting, the future of our democracy at risk. Congress considering a bill to require all electronic voting machines to have a paper record.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They need to have the kind of system of accountability that we would want with our ATMs, our gambling machines.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: Tonight, I'll talk with the author of the E-Democracy bill, Congressman Rush Holt and California Secretary of State Kevin Shelley, one of the country's most outspoken critics of electronic voting machines.
And the newspaper industry shaken by scandal. Two of the largest newspaper companies admit they inflated circulation figures. We'll have a special report.
And the power of the Latino vote. Jorge Ramos, author of "The Latino Wave," says Hispanics will elect our next president. He also wants amnesty for illegal aliens in this country. Jorge Ramos is my guest tonight.
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS tonight for Tuesday, June 22. Here now for an hour of news, debate and opinion is Lou Dobbs.
DOBBS: Good evening.
President Bush today said he did not order anyone to use torture during prisoner interrogations. President Bush said torture has nothing to do with the values of America. At the same time, the White House released documents that officials say prove the Bush administration wanted prisoners to be treated humanely.
White House Correspondent Suzanne Malveaux reports -- Suzanne.
SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Lou, it really was an extraordinary briefing from the White House. You had White House Counsel Alberto Gonzales, you had officials from the Pentagon also all weighing in on this, trying to make the case here, of course, that the administration did not sign off on the use of torture. You have over two inches of documents that were released from the White House.
The big question, of course, is: What does this really say? A lot of this is from the lawyers. It's some broad legal opinions about presidential power, how they believe the president could have extended his powers beyond international law, beyond the Geneva Conventions, part of it.
The second part, however, is from the Pentagon directives, those to on the field and the ground, what exactly it was that they could or could not do, and that, of course, the administration says is abiding by international law, by U.S. law.
The president in these documents has a February 7, 2002, presidential memo, essentially lays out two points here. First, that when it comes to Iraq that the Geneva Conventions did apply, that there was no question about that.
Secondly, however, when it comes to dealing with al Qaeda and the Taliban, that he agreed with the Justice Department that their conclusion that the provisions did not apply, that this was a different type of paradigm.
However, having said that, the president goes on to say that he declined to exercise his authority, essentially, to reject the Geneva accords, that he was going to abide by international law, by the Geneva accords when it came to the Taliban as well as al Qaeda in Afghanistan. President Bush earlier today in the Oval Office.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BUSH: We do not condone torture. I have never ordered torture. I will never order torture. The values of this country are such that torture is not a part of our soul and our being.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MALVEAUX: Now, Lou, already, there has been a lot of criticism, particularly from the Democrats who say that they believe these two inches of documents really don't give very much information at all, certainly not new information or information that hasn't already been leaked to various media outlets. They say that they want more specifics about what the president did and did not sign off on when it comes to interrogation techniques. One senator very vocal about this. Senator Patrick Leahy saying "The administration has made it a practice to deny oversight cooperation to Congress. The stonewalling in the prison abuse scandal has been building to a crisis point. Now responding to public pressure, the White House has released a small subset of the documents that offers glimpses into the genesis of the scandal. All should have been provided earlier to Congress, and much more remains held back and hidden away from public view."
What we do know, Lou, is -- and what White House Counsel Alberto Gonzales did say is -- that when it comes to CIA interrogation methods, that is not included in this documentation, but he still maintains that they abided by international law. Lou, this is a controversy that is not going away any time soon.
DOBBS: And a great deal of effort will be spent in the next hours pouring over those documents as well.
Suzanne, thank you very much.
Suzanne Malveaux at the White House.
The Pentagon has also been answering its critics about the way in which it's handled enemy prisoners. A senior Pentagon official said despite reports to the contrary, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld did not approve of an interrogation method called water-boarding. It's a technique that makes a prisoner feel he's drowning.
Senior Pentagon Correspondent Jamie McIntyre with the report -- Jamie.
JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN SENIOR PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Well, Lou, we have now gotten our documents at the Pentagon as well, and they do show that commanders at Guantanamo were frustrated that they weren't getting the intelligence they wanted, asked for a series of aggressive techniques for interrogating prisoners.
Those included the use of scenarios designed to convince the detainee that his death or severely painful consequences were coming, exposure to cold weather, or water, inducing a perception of suffocating using a wet towel or pouring of water. That's the so- called water-boarding.
But only that fourth item on there, the mild non-injurious physical contact was actually approved by Rumsfeld, and that includes stuff such as grabbing someone by an arm, poking them in the chest, and that sort of thing.
However, these documents do show that other techniques were approved, including the use of marathon 20-hour interrogations, the removal of clothing, and the use of military dogs to induce stress. Now those last two, the removal of clothing and the use of dogs, Pentagon officials insist were never actually used.
And those more aggressive techniques, although they were never authorized, the Pentagon's legal counsel gave an opinion to Secretary Rumsfeld saying that they were something that were legally available to the Pentagon, simply not warranted at this time.
Overall, though, the Pentagon is hoping that the release of these documents will show that the Pentagon's actions were in accordance with U.S. law and American values -- Lou.
DOBBS: Jamie, if these documents turn out to reflect accurately the direction given by the Pentagon, it means that the definition of torture has been broadened beyond at least its traditional meaning, implying significant physical pain being inflicted. What is the Pentagon saying? How is it describing these approved practices?
MCINTYRE: Well, there's a distinction they're drawing between things that were approved or things that lawyers argued could be legally defensible and what they actually implemented in policy, and the point they're making in releasing these documents is although there's a lot of discussion of more aggressive techniques, things that could be done that might be borderline, the only things that were actually authorized or ordered or used were things that were on the low end, things that they believe most reasonable people will conclude is not torture and not a violation of the Geneva Conventions.
Of course, as you said, we'll be pouring through these documents. People will be looking at every word, looking for consistency in the Pentagon policy.
DOBBS: And the investigation, of course, continues. Thank you very much.
Jamie McIntyre, senior Pentagon correspondent.
Further setting the record straight today, the State Department has corrected an astonishing blunder in its annual report on terrorism. Officials now say international terrorists killed 625 people last year. That's more than twice the number of deaths than it reported in its April document. The State Department says clerical and administrative errors led to the mistake.
Sean Callebs reports now from Washington -- Sean.
SEAN CALLEBS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, the secretary of state says mistakes were made. Today, the administration revising the number of terrorist attacks in 2003 and detailing a sharp increase in the number of fatalities from those attacks.
In early April, when the global terrorism report first came out, it showed there were 190 terrorist attacks that claimed 307 lives. However, after Democratic Congressman Henry Waxman voiced concerns, the administration checked its facts.
New figures show a slight elevation in attacks, 208, but the number of fatalities more than doubled to 625. Critics contend the Bush administration couched the numbers to make it appear they were showing dramatic improvements in the war of terror.
Secretary of State Colin Powell says that isn't the case.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COLIN POWELL, SECRETARY OF STATE: We have only one goal with this report, and that is to accurately reflect the pattern of terrorism that existed throughout the world during the period of the report. The report is not designed to make our efforts look better or worse or terrorism look better or worse, but to provide the facts to the American people.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CALLEBS: In November of last year, several terrorist attacks in Turkey claimed 61 lives. Those attacks were not part of the initial findings, in part because a new government agency called the Terrorist Threat Integration Center is now responsible for tracking attacks and death. Some congressional Democrats contend numbers were manipulated.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. RAHM EMANUEL (D), ILLINOIS: It appears that a pattern exists of either gross incompetence or gross political manipulation, and neither is worthy of a political -- of a Cabinet secretary.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CALLEBS: Powell is adamant the message in the report is not changing. There is less state-sponsored terrorism, more plots have been thwarted, and Afghanistan is no longer a breeding ground for terrorists. When asked if anyone would be fired, the State Department coordinator for counterterrorism said mistakes should have been caught and that is a decision Secretary Powell will have to make -- Lou.
DOBBS: Sean Callebs, thank you.
Joining me to discuss this corrected State Department report on terrorism is Steven Simon. He's senior analyst and terrorism expert at the Rand Corporation joining us tonight from Washington.
Let's start. Do you accept what the secretary of state said, a simple mistake, no distortion intended?
STEVEN SIMON, RAND CORPORATION SENIOR ANALYST: Well, it -- there were a series of mistakes.
Some of the problems with the report stem from the fact that it dealt in categories that date back to a prior era when state sponsors of terrorism were the focus of attention. Now, of course the problem lies with substate groups, groups like al Qaeda and its fellow perpetrators of terrorist attacks, and the report isn't well designed to take those into account.
You know, other factors, like the choice to cut off publication on November 15, thereby excluding some very bloody attacks that took place after that, and before the end of 2003 and, of course, the counting errors were, well, you know, avoidable.
DOBBS: Avoidable. Everyone makes mistakes. It appears that more than a reasonable number of mistakes were made here based on what you're saying, Steven.
Let me ask you this. The fact that the administration took credit for the -- what appeared to be, at least in that initial report, a decline in the number of deaths and attacks -- does that put a whole new light on the issue?
SIMON: Not really, Lou. I mean, my view is that the administration looked at these numbers and they were pleased by them and they thought that they confirmed that U.S. policies and the activities of the United States and its friends and allies were having a substantial effect, just a greater effect than they were, in fact, having.
DOBBS: As you know, Democratic Congressman Henry Waxman basically says that the administration was manipulating this report. Do you discount that altogether?
SIMON: It strikes me as unlikely that the administration was cooking the books. It was more likely that they were simply taking advantage of, exploiting, if you will, mistake that had been made by others and that had gone undetected.
DOBBS: Steven Simon, the Rand Corporation.
Thanks for being here.
SIMON: Sure.
DOBBS: Radical Islamist terrorists today beheaded a South Korean hostage in Iraq. They killed the hostage after the South Korean government refused to meet their demands and abandon its plans to send 3,000 more soldiers to Iraq. Insurgents also killed two American soldiers in the town of Balad, north of Baghdad.
Christiane Amanpour reports from Baghdad.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KIM SUN-IL, SOUTH KOREAN: I don't want to die.
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Two days after releasing this harrowing video of a South Korean contractor pleading for his life, his captors killed him. U.S. soldiers found his body west of Baghdad, and officials said he was beheaded.
KIM: Please get out of here!
AMANPOUR: Thirty-three-year-old Kim Sun-il had been forced to plead with his government to accept the Islamic militants' demands: pull out all South Korean troops here and do not send the next contingent of 3,000.
The latest image showed Kim in a Guantanamo-style orange jumpsuit apparently just before he was executed. The orange jumpsuit is among the militants' political statements. Americans Nicholas Berg who was beheaded by the same people in May and Paul Johnson who was beheaded in Saudi Arabia last week were also dressed the same way.
The statement from the killers addressed to the Korean people says, "Enough of the lies. Enough of the games. You claim you're here on behalf of the Iraqi people, but you're really here on behalf of the United States." The South Korean government said it would not be deterred and would send the next contingent of troops as planned.
It was a day that did not spare Iraqis either. The dean of the law school at Mosul University in northern Iraq was assassinated along with her husband, and at least three other Iraqis were killed north of Baghdad in a roadside explosion.
Two U.S. soldiers were also killed as the relentless campaign of terror designed to derail the occupation and the new interim Iraqi government continues.
Christiane Amanpour, CNN, Baghdad.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: Tonight, U.S. forces attacked a building that the military says was a safe house used by Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, al Qaeda's leader in Iraq. A military spokesman said precision weapons destroyed the building in Fallujah. There is no word on whether the attack was successful. It was the second such attack on a suspected al Qaeda safe house in Fallujah within a week.
Iran tonight says it may free eight captured British Marines very soon, pending its investigation into their activities. Earlier, Iranian officials had said the Marines could be put on trial. Tehran says the Marines entered Iranian territorial waters, and they shot al- Arab Waterway. Britain says the troops may have crossed that line by accident.
Still ahead here, author Jorge Ramos will be here. He'll tell us why he says Latino voters will determine the outcome of the presidential election this year.
Also, scandal in the newspaper industry. Two major newspaper companies inflating their circulation figures and effectively lying to their advertisers. We'll have a report.
And democracy under threat. Protesters rally in Washington to demand paper records for e-voting machines. I'll be joined by two leading critics of e-voting, Congressman Rush Holt and California Secretary of State Kevin Shelley.
And tonight, Exporting America. Companies exporting jobs to cheap overseas labor markets also taking a toll in the real estate market. We'll have that report for you. And I'll be joined by the former U.S. Trade Representative Charlene Barshefsky next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Former president Bill Clinton began his nationwide book signing tour here in New York City, and, if the lines are any indication, he has a bestseller on his hands.
Kelly Wallace is in midtown Manhattan with a report for us -- Kelly.
KELLY WALLACE, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Lou, Bill Clinton clearly is enjoying this, his latest campaign. We know he has always loved the art of campaigning, and he seems to be relishing this opportunity to sell a ton of books and also to polish up his legacy.
He was only supposed to spend one hour in this midtown Manhattan bookstore. Well ,he was here for five years, and he just left a short time ago.
We tried to get to him and try and ask him some questions. We got up to him, and he told us -- his response was amazing when we mentioned that he's being compared to Harry Potter and being called the political Harry Potter. He joked that maybe he should get some glasses, but then his aides kind of pulled him away before we could get to some tougher subjects.
Inside this bookstore, an aide to the former president tells us that he signed nearly 2,000 books in some four-and-a-half hours, and we've been reporting throughout the day about hundred and hundreds of people, some people standing in line for 12 hours, even longer, to get a copy of the book, but also to get a signature from the former president.
He has left midtown Manhattan and is on his way up to Harlem where we are told by our reporters on the ground there there are lines just as long as we saw here in midtown Manhattan. Harlem, of course, important because that is where he is keeping his office right now.
Much has been made about how he is now a bestselling book author. Bob Barnett, the president's attorney, telling me early today that the former president now is holding the top seller spot three different places on Amazon when it comes to his book, audio excerpts, and also the sort of version for the visually impaired. So, clearly, he's got a hot back on his hands right now.
Another question we've been asking throughout the day, Lou, though, is: What impact will this all have on Campaign '04? Clinton supporters say the more he talks, the more he helps the presumptive Democratic nominee John Kerry. But conservatives say the more he talks and the more he talks about the darkest days of his presidency, including his affair with White House intern Monica Lewinsky, well, that fires up conservatives, and that helps President George W. Bush -- Lou.
DOBBS: Meanwhile president -- former President Clinton is fired up about selling books.
Kelly Wallace, thank you.
In one television interview to promote his new book, President Clinton lost his composure. Mr. Clinton became upset after repeated questions about his affair with former White House intern Monica Lewinsky. In his interview with the BBC, Clinton said the media is too easy on special prosecutor Kenneth Starr.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WILLIAM J. CLINTON, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: One of the reasons he got away with it is because people like you only ask people like me the questions. You gave him a complete free ride. Any abuse they want to do. They indicted all these little people from Arkansas.
What did you care about them? They're not famous. Who cares if their lives are trampled? Who cares if their children are humiliated? Who cares if Starr sends FBI agents to their school and rips them out of their schools to humiliate them and try to force their parents to lie about me?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: Bill Clinton on the BBC. It aired for the first time just moments ago on BBC.
Tonight, a growing scandal is raising questions about the credibility of another form of publishing, newspaper publishing. Two of the largest newspapers in the country have now admitted they inflated their circulation number and essentially lied to their advertisers and the public.
Peter Viles reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
PETER VILES, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): In the newspaper wars of Chicago and New York City, anything goes, Anything, except lying about how many papers you're selling, but, in a scandal rocking the $55-billion-a-year industry, two big papers, New York's "Newsday" and Chicago's "Sun-Times" now admit they puffed up their circulation numbers, misleading and perhaps overcharging advertisers. It began with a lawsuit alleging "Newsday" pressured its distributors to inflate sales figures.
JOSEPH GIAIMO, ATTORNEY: They were told if you want to continue to be a distribute -- the distributor -- for "Newsday," you do what we tell you. We're the bosses. We're the publishers. You're the distributor.
VILES: Former distributor Michael Pouchi says he was fired when he refused to cook the books.
MICHAEL POUCHI, FORMER "NEWSDAY" DISTRIBUTOR: No, it was pressure. People would -- certain people would come into my office and tell me if I didn't do it, I was not going to be there very long.
VILES: "Newsday"'s parent, The Tribune Co., says that lawsuit and those claims are without merit. But it did shock the industry when it admitted "Newsday" did inflate circulation by 40,000 copies a day or 7 percent and that it's Spanish paper, "Hoy," added 15,000 copies a day or 16 percent. As "Newsday" columnist Paul Vitello wrote, "In a business that prides itself on telling the truth about others, we have been caught in what looks like, walks like, and smells like a lie."
GREG MITCHELL, EDITOR, "EDITOR & PUBLISHER": Right now, it's really a problem with just a few papers, but it's an industrywide perception problem right now, and I think advertisers everywhere, Wall Street and so forth, are going to be looking at this closely because they really don't know how far this will go.
VILES: Also in Chicago, Hollinger, reeling from the ouster of CEO Conrad Black, says circulation was overstated at the "Sun-Times." It says it's still investigating how badly those books were cooked.
There are SEC investigations now at both Tribune and Hollinger. The Tribune hasn't fired anyone over this, but a circulation executive at "Newsday" was put on administrative leave -- Lou.
DOBBS: Pete, thank you very much.
Peter Viles.
A hot time on Capitol Hill today. No scandal. It was the Third Annual Congressional Chili Pepper-eating Contest. Congressman Darrell Issa of California, Congressman Pete Sessions of Texas -- well, they tied for the top prize, each of them eating nine peppers.
That was nowhere last year's more impressive performance by Congressman Joe Baca of California. Congressman Baca ate an astounding 47 jalapenos. Congressman Baca did not participate this year. Apparently, he learned something of a lesson.
When we continue, a rally on Capitol Hill for a reliable voting system in this country. Congressman Rush Holt of New Jersey and California Secretary of State Kevin Shelley are leading the effort. They are my guests.
And a call to legalize illegal aliens in order to improve Homeland Security. I'll be talking about that and the author of the "Latino Wave," Jorge Ramos.
And another damaging effect from the exporting of American jobs. It's all about real estate. It's not helping there. We'll have the report.
A great deal more still ahead. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ANNOUNCER: LOU DOBBS TONIGHT continues. Here now, for more news, debate and opinion, Lou Dobbs.
DOBBS: There's widespread concern about e-voting in this country, and hundreds of people today rallied on Capitol Hill calling for a new law to require paper records of all electronic voting. One- third of the votes cast in this country this year will be cast on those electronic machines with no paper receipts. Congressman Rush Holt of New Jersey and 140 co-sponsors are trying to change that.
Lisa Sylvester reports tonight from Washington.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LISA SYLVESTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Paperless equals powerless. Protesters rallied in Washington pushing for a backup paper ballot system for electronic voting machines. They argue without a way of verifying electronic votes, there's no way to do a recount and no way to know for sure who won an election.
REP. JANICE SCHAKOWSKY (D), ILLINOIS: How can President Bush and Republican congressional leaders who may be blocking this bill speak about exploiting democracy and freedom to nations across the world if we can't guarantee that our own citizens' votes are counted and counted accurately?
SYLVESTER The latest polls show Senator John Kerry edging President Bush by a single percentage point within the margin of error. With the presidential contest this close, it could come down to a handful of votes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They need to have the kind of system of accountability that we would want for ATMs, for gambling machines, for any electronic device we thought was particularly important, and voting is -- what could be more important?
SYLVESTER: A bill in Congress with 141 co-sponsors would require electronic voting machines have a paper record to verify results. But the legislation is opposed by disabilities groups who argue electronic voting is the only way the blind and visually impaired can cast their ballots in secret. The companies that make the electronic machines argued in a hearing last month that backup paper systems are unneeded.
WILLIAM WELSH, ELECTRONIC SYSTEMS AND SOFTWARE: We believe this option is not necessary, as it will add, clearly, to the cost and complexity to what is already a secure process.
SYLVESTER: Voter watchdog groups say it may add cost and complexity, but it's a small price to pay for certainty.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SYLVESTER (on camera): The League of Women Voters modified its position on electronic voting machines at its national convention earlier this month. The group is urging county officials to make sure their voting systems and procedures are not only secure, accurate, and accessible, but recountable -- Lou.
DOBBS: Lisa, thank you. Lisa Sylvester.
Congressman Rush Holt of New Jersey is the author of the legislation requiring a paper trail for electronic voting. Also joining us tonight, California Secretary of State, Kevin Shelley. Secretary Shelley is the first Secretary of State in the country to call for paper ballots to be standard in electronic voting machines.
Gentlemen, good to have you both with us.
CONGRESSMAN RUSH HOLT (D), NEW JERSEY: Good to be here
KEVIN SHELLEY, SECRETARY OF STATE, CALIFORNIA: Nice to be here.
DOBBS: Let me turn to you first, Congressman Holt. You had quite a demonstration in Washington. You've got 140 others joining you. What are the prospect that this legislation could move forward and accomplish anything before -- in time for the November election?
HOLT: Well, it's become something of a national movement, I would say. Members of Congress tell me at town meetings all over the country this is one of the first subjects that's brought up. So, certainly, the public pressure is to move.
The process here in the committee, though, seems to be stalled. And that was really the point of today's demonstration, I guess you would call it, here in Washington, to say that this -- we're getting -- we're running out of time. We're getting near the deadline of getting something done in time for this year's election.
DOBBS: Congressman, Bob Ney, Congressman Steny Hoyer, Senators McConnell and Dodd, they say that your proposal, effectively, is premature. How do you respond to them?
HOLT: You know, talk to these hundreds of thousands, millions of voters. I'm very pleased to see how seriously people are taking this. They -- it's a sign that they believe their vote is, indeed, sacred, and they're willing to travel to Washington in today's case to make that point.
I think this is really a fulfillment of the Help America Vote Act, not a revision of it. I think, in fact, it adds the principle of verifiability to the principle -- to the principle of accessibility. So, it does nothing to deter voters with physical disabilities, for example. It just makes the vote verifiable, auditable.
DOBBS: Do you concur, Secretary Shelley?
SHELLEY: I do. In fact, as you mentioned earlier, California is the first state to actually put in place standards for a voter verified paper trail. And we took great pains to ensure that our paper trail requirement ensures that it's fully accessible to the disabled community.
So, I would agree with the Congressman that the mere fact of requiring a paper trail doesn't, in and of itself, have to be disincentive for disabled voters.
DOBBS: Four registrars -- four of your county registrars in California have said your mandates, basically, are going to force them to go to paper ballots. Which is worse: e-voting without a paper record or paper ballots? SHELLEY: Well, I would respectfully disagree with them. What we're doing here in California is we're providing voters the option. They can vote on the touchscreen voting devices or they can vote on a paper ballot, if they so choose.
We're not requiring one or the other; we're providing the voters with the option. I simply would question, whether it be to a vendor or anyone else for that matter, why wouldn't we want to take every step to provide the security and protections for that most sacred expression of our democracy, the right to vote.
DOBBS: Let me ask you both this one question -- and we're out of time, really. But quickly: what is the cost of adding a paper record to e-voting? What is the -- what's the cost?
HOLT: It's not prohibitive. It would vary from manufacturer to manufacturer what it would be. But you know, just to paraphrase the late President Reagan, you know, trust is no substitute for verification.
DOBBS: Secretary Shelley, you get the last word.
SHELLEY: What is the cost of our democracy? I think every voter has to have the confidence that his or her vote will be counted as it was cast. That's the cornerstone of our democracy, and we have to protect it and we must.
DOBBS: Secretary of State of California, we appreciate it -- Kevin Shelley -- and Congressman Rush Holt of New Jersey. Thank you, gentlemen.
SHELLEY: Thank you very much.
DOBBS: That brings us to the subject of our poll tonight. The question is: Should e-voting without a paper record be banned? Yes or no. Cast your vote at CNN.COM/LOU. We'll have the results for you coming up later in the broadcast.
And tonight's thought is on democracy. "It is not the voting that's democracy. It's the counting." English playwright Tom Stoppard.
And tonight, the exporting of America. It's having a profound effect on this nation's real estate market. Companies that are shipping American jobs to cheap overseas labor markets are also hurting this country's real estate market.
Kitty Pilgrim reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KITTY PILGRIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Many rural areas in the west and south are home to a call center, back office operation or customer support center. But a recent survey by a Chicago real estate firm found 80 percent of companies plan to increase the number of office support jobs they move overseas. BRUCE RUTHERFORD, JONES LANG LASALLE, INC.: Most of these kinds of jobs in the United States have long since migrated from the major inner cities to more rural and suburban locations where labor costs were lower and real estate was less expensive. Now that some of those jobs are being offshored, it's those markets that will be most affected by that activity.
PILGRIM: The survey of Fortune 1,000 companies found: 78 percent plan to offshore more call center work; 64 percent back office accounting, finance, and human resources departments; 77 percent information technology, R&D, and software programming.
Rutherford cites places with many call centers like Phoenix and Little Rock, states such as Mississippi, Louisiana, Florida, and Texas as vulnerable areas. The University of California at Berkeley has also done a study on real estate and job loss overseas. They say a combination of slow job growth, technological improvements to replace workers, and shipping jobs overseas are depressing commercial real estate.
CYNTHIA KROLL, FISHER CENTER FOR REAL ESTATE, UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA, BERKELEY: The kinds of buildings that are most at risk are buildings that were built for back office work 20 years ago. You know, the ones that drew workers out to the suburbs. It may become harder and harder to lease those buildings, particularly in a situation where we have a 15 to 20 percent vacancy rate in many markets.
PILGRIM: Kroll cites the obvious examples of Silicon Valley, but also adds such major metropolitan areas around Atlanta and Dallas.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM (on camera): Now, even if there are no comprehensive national surveys, there's plenty of anecdotal evidence that outsourcing is causing pressure on the commercial real estate markets in certain regions of the country, mostly in the south and the west -- Lou.
DOBBS: Kitty, thanks very much. Kitty Pilgrim.
Coming up next, our worsening record trade deficits. Former U.S. Trade Representative Charlene Barshefsky is my guest. We'll be talking about whether we can afford anymore free trade.
Also, the Latino factor in this year's presidential election. I'll be talking with author Jorge Ramos who says Latinos will elect our next president.
That and much more still ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: We have, of course, reported here extensively on the U.S. record trade deficit and this year it is expected to top last year's by a healthy margin. Joining me now for more on the worsening record trade deficits, former U.S. trade representative Charlene Barshefsky who served as trade representative and deputy trade representative during the Clinton administration. In that time, of course, working on NAFTA, China's entry into the World Trade Organization. Charlene Barshefsky joins me now here in New York. Good to have you with us.
CHARLENE BARSHEFSKY, FORMER U.S.T.P.: Pleasure to be here.
DOBBS: Half a trillion dollars in trade deficits. Imports are raising, exports, in fact, in the last month declined. 28 years of trade deficits. And we have people in this country actually talking about free trade. It sounds like an awfully high price to me.
BARSHEFSKY: We've had trade deficits, as you said, for a very long time. Yet, this is the world's most productive economy. It is the world's strongest economy still. If I use the 1990s as an example, we had large structural trade deficits, 22 million new jobs, an unemployment rate of 4 percent, a 30-percent growth in our GDP, and we became the world's most competitive economy. If you pay attention to economic management, you can make it work.
DOBBS: Economic management. I suspect, Charlene, that there are people who would say to you, yes but four years of that administration, we were effectively in a bubble. And that distorts things a bit. Others might say to you that after 28 years and over the past four that -- almost -- that we have experienced trade deficits, that we're reaching a point with $3.5 trillion in external trade debt that it is bone crushing. And if we can talk about competitiveness in this country, why in the world can't we reach a level of balanced trade? Why don't we have a policy about balanced trade? That's not protectionism. That's not isolationism. That's just good sense.
BARSHEFSKY: I think we don't have a policy of balanced trade because we think it's not realistic. These structural numbers are very, very hard to move. In addition, the implication of balanced trade is that as an economy, we're disadvantaged by imports. Imports keep our inflation rate low. Imports stretch the value of the dollar. And imports also are job creating in some industries. So the picture is actually much more complicated. From my point of view, one of the things that we ought to be focusing on is our export performance. Our export performance is not very good. That is critical to our health.
DOBBS: But our manufacturing base, we've lost 3 million manufacturing jobs and this is a direct result of NAFTA. It is a direct result of the policies that we pursued and I know you're just going to love this, but it's my opinion, of the policy we've pursued with China. We have $124 billion trade debt with China. It is rising toward 140 billion this year. Why in the world does it make sense to continue that kind of performance?
BARSHEFSKY: Well, let's talk about the manufacturing job loss. There's been a 25-year decline in manufacturing jobs in the U.S. At the same time U.S. productivity and efficiencies have increased. Manufacturing output in the U.S. in the 1990s increased by one-third with almost 20 million fewer...
DOBBS: Productivity roars, yes, productivity roars.
BARSHEFSKY: Manufacturing output. The point is that about 80 percent of job loss in the U.S. is IT-related and productivity- related. About 20 percent is trade and other factors. We can't discount the productivity factor.
DOBBS: I love productivity. What I don't love is looking out on a 30-year period and seeing that working men and women are basically achieving nothing in the way of wage improvement. I don't like seeing what was once a technology surplus in our trade relationships with the world is now a trade deficit. Our one-time large surplus and services has declined over 30 percent in the past four years.
BARSHEFSKY: I'd put those statistics under the rubric of competitiveness.
DOBBS: So would I.
BARSHEFSKY: I'm very worried about longer-term American competitiveness. I don't necessarily rely on the same statistics that you do with respect to competitive threat. But I do think there is a competitiveness concern law...
DOBBS: I don't think we need much of a competitive threat. We're giving away, basically, our knowledge base, our technology and our jobs. I'd like you to come back as soon as possible to talk about those threats and we can unwind some of the complexities.
BARSHEFSKY: I'd love to.
DOBBS: Thank you very much. Charlene Barshefsky.
Coming up next. We'll share your thoughts on the exporting of America and the burden on our middle class.
Also, my next guest says the United States should have an open immigration policy with Mexico and an amnesty program for the eight to 12 million illegal aliens already living in this country. I'll be talking about these issues next with Jorge Ramos, author of "The Latino Wave." Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Officials in San Francisco tonight are considering whether to allow non-U.S. citizens to vote in their school board elections. That would mean any non-U.S. citizen, even an illegal alien, would be allowed to vote if that person has a child in the public school system. The proposal is expected to pass a vote by the San Francisco Board of Supervisors this summer and be placed on election ballots in November. Takoma Park, Maryland already allows non-U.S. citizens to vote in its municipal elections. And Amherst, Massachusetts has filed a bill in the state legislature to allow the same practice. Progress moves on.
Well, my guest tonight has written a provocative and an interesting book entitled "The Latino Wave, How Hispanics Will Elect the Next American President." Jorge Ramos is the anchor (UNINTELLIGIBLE) Univision and he sets forth a case to give amnesty to illegal aliens already in this country suggesting it is, in fact, necessary for our homeland security and he sets forth an entire agenda for the Latino/Hispanic minority in this country. Jorge Ramos joins me now from Albuquerque, New Mexico. Jorge, it is good to have you with us.
I have enjoyed your book. As you and I both surmised, we don't agree with one another. But a provocative book, an important book, I think, nonetheless. You said that you wrote the book to begin to understand this issue. And the first thing I don't understand is the use of Hispanic and Latino and one preference for the other in this country. Could you explain why it is a Latino wave instead of a Hispanic wave.
JORGE RAMOS, AUTHOR, "THE LATINO WAVE": It could have been "The Hispanic Wave." Really, we use both terms without any distinction. The important thing is that Latinos are 40 million right now. In 50 years from now there will be 100 million Latinos or Hispanics. And in 120 years from now when I'm sorry to say none of us is going to be here, there will be more Hispanics than non-Hispanic whites. That doesn't mean that Latinos want to take over or that Latinos want to create a nation within a nation. It simply means that Latinos will have a very important prominent part in the future of the United States.
DOBBS: You say that. But I detect from a very benign beginning, I thought, Jorge, in which you talked about the demographics that are changing and the fact that Hispanics are now the largest minority population in this country. You moved, if I may, to cultural machismo, talking about how this will be effectively a Latin nation by the conclusion. Can you sort that out for us?
RAMOS: Absolutely. We are going through a process of Latinization. Latinos are affecting everything in this country from politics to the economy to music to food. More tortillas are being sold than bagels, more salsa than ketchup. But at the same time Latinos are going through a process of Americanization. In other words, Latin American immigrants are learning English at a very fast pace. Second generation Latinos feel more comfortable in English than in Spanish like my son Nicholas (ph). Third generation Latinos tend to marry outside their Hispanic community and there are millions of Latinos who are becoming U.S. citizens. I was in Iraq about a year ago. I saw thousands of Hispanic soldiers fighting for this country. So I think it would be unwise and unfair to criticize Latinos for not being loyal or patriotic enough.
DOBBS: Oh, I think that would be very unwise. Since we're being candid, I think it's very unwise, perhaps, to -- I guess -- let me back up before I say it's unwise. That's my first instinct. But the fact is when you talk about the Latino vote and you talked about achieving political domination in the country effectively by the end of the book, does this not invite some charge of ethnic imperialism on your part? RAMOS: No, not at all. Again, Latinos do not want to take over. As a matter of fact, the problem that we have in the Hispanic community is that we are underrepresented politically. We don't even have one senator. We don't even have one judge on the Supreme Court. We only have one governor, Bill Richardson Lopez in New Mexico.
Basically what I'm proposing is that the country is divided politically between President Bush and John Kerry. It is polarized by the war. What I'm saying is that 8 million Hispanic voters will decide who the next president of the United States is because Latinos are concentrated in ten states. Among them five battleground states, Florida, Arizona, New Mexico, Colorado and Nevada. So, therefore, I truly believe Hispanics will have the crucial vote in this election. I spoke with President Bush and with John Kerry and they both also agree with the possibility that Latinos might decide this election. Latinos might become the ultimate swing vote. The importance of the Hispanic vote is defined by its ability to determine an election despite the fact that Latinos, of course, are not the majority.
DOBBS: Jorge, you also deal with the issue of not only political importance, if not domination on the part of the community, but, at the same time, you acknowledge it's very difficult to define that community. There are other ethnic minorities and one could argue whether Hispanic is truly an ethnic minority. But that's another discussion for another day. But the fact is, if Latinos and Hispanics vote in blocs as certain other ethnic minorities do, other special interests would do, what is the net contribution to our body politic (ph) in this country?
RAMOS: Well, Latinos are a very important part of this country. Historically, 70 percent of Latinos have voted for the Democratic party. About 30 percent of Latinos tend to vote more for the Republican party. I think that Latinos underline the multicultural, multiracial, multiethnic characteristics of the United States. One of the most important things about the presence of Latinos in the United States is that they underline the fact that this country is great thanks to this tolerance for diversity, thanks -- well, that's one of the most important things. It is a diverse country and Latinos underline this.
RAMOS: Yes, Jorge, I would only say -- and I hope you will come back and talk about this. And the book is "The Latino Wave." Can you see it there? There we go. It's a terrific read. It reads -- it's very provocative. I hope you'll come back and we can discuss it more.
RAMOS: We'll talk about immigration, too, if you want.
DOBBS: I would love to talk about immigration. Multiculturalism, I would just point out one thing. This was the most diverse society on the face of the planet long before illegal immigration of the last 20 years. It is the country itself that has provided that diversity.
RAMOS: I would call it undocumented immigration but we can talk about it.
DOBBS: You can call it what you wish. It is the great thing about being in America, isn't it?
RAMOS: Absolutely. It is fantastic to be here in this country. This country gave me the opportunity that my country of origin couldn't give me.
DOBBS: Jorge Ramos, great to talk with you. Come back soon.
Coming up next, many of you were outraged at the outsourcing of U.S. military supplies to foreign countries. We'll hear your thoughts on the issue and more next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Taking a look now at some of your thoughts. Joe Candito of Massachusetts. "I am outraged regarding the U.S. government's policy to allow foreign countries to manufacture bullets and uniforms for our military. The people of the U.S. should tell Congress, no more."
And Bill Trainer, Pennsylvania. "Millions of Americans drink their German beer and French wine, don their Malaysian-made shirts and turn on their Japanese-made TVs and drive their Volvos down to hear and cheer Kerry rant about Judas CEOs. Is there anyone with more than three brain cells who does not understand that we can't spend all of our money on foreign-made products and then expect to keep jobs here."
We love hearing from you. Send us your thoughts at loudobbs@CNN.com.
Coming up next, the results of our poll tonight. Please stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: The results of our poll tonight. 94 percent of you say e-voting without a paper record should be banned. 6 percent of you say it should not. Thanks for being with us tonight. Please join us tomorrow. We'll have a debate in our face-off. American government contracts being awarded to foreign companies. Should the practice be continued?
And we'll have a special report on what America's Olympians will be wearing. Those uniforms, much of that equipment, not made in the USA. Please be with us. For all of us here, good night from New York. "ANDERSON COOPER 360" is next.
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Aired June 22, 2004 - 18:00 ET
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LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR: Tonight, the White House has released a thick file of documents to support the president's contention he never authorized the torture of Iraqi or al Qaeda prisoners.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We do not condone torture. I have never ordered torture. I will never order torture.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: E-voting, the future of our democracy at risk. Congress considering a bill to require all electronic voting machines to have a paper record.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They need to have the kind of system of accountability that we would want with our ATMs, our gambling machines.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: Tonight, I'll talk with the author of the E-Democracy bill, Congressman Rush Holt and California Secretary of State Kevin Shelley, one of the country's most outspoken critics of electronic voting machines.
And the newspaper industry shaken by scandal. Two of the largest newspaper companies admit they inflated circulation figures. We'll have a special report.
And the power of the Latino vote. Jorge Ramos, author of "The Latino Wave," says Hispanics will elect our next president. He also wants amnesty for illegal aliens in this country. Jorge Ramos is my guest tonight.
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS tonight for Tuesday, June 22. Here now for an hour of news, debate and opinion is Lou Dobbs.
DOBBS: Good evening.
President Bush today said he did not order anyone to use torture during prisoner interrogations. President Bush said torture has nothing to do with the values of America. At the same time, the White House released documents that officials say prove the Bush administration wanted prisoners to be treated humanely.
White House Correspondent Suzanne Malveaux reports -- Suzanne.
SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Lou, it really was an extraordinary briefing from the White House. You had White House Counsel Alberto Gonzales, you had officials from the Pentagon also all weighing in on this, trying to make the case here, of course, that the administration did not sign off on the use of torture. You have over two inches of documents that were released from the White House.
The big question, of course, is: What does this really say? A lot of this is from the lawyers. It's some broad legal opinions about presidential power, how they believe the president could have extended his powers beyond international law, beyond the Geneva Conventions, part of it.
The second part, however, is from the Pentagon directives, those to on the field and the ground, what exactly it was that they could or could not do, and that, of course, the administration says is abiding by international law, by U.S. law.
The president in these documents has a February 7, 2002, presidential memo, essentially lays out two points here. First, that when it comes to Iraq that the Geneva Conventions did apply, that there was no question about that.
Secondly, however, when it comes to dealing with al Qaeda and the Taliban, that he agreed with the Justice Department that their conclusion that the provisions did not apply, that this was a different type of paradigm.
However, having said that, the president goes on to say that he declined to exercise his authority, essentially, to reject the Geneva accords, that he was going to abide by international law, by the Geneva accords when it came to the Taliban as well as al Qaeda in Afghanistan. President Bush earlier today in the Oval Office.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BUSH: We do not condone torture. I have never ordered torture. I will never order torture. The values of this country are such that torture is not a part of our soul and our being.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MALVEAUX: Now, Lou, already, there has been a lot of criticism, particularly from the Democrats who say that they believe these two inches of documents really don't give very much information at all, certainly not new information or information that hasn't already been leaked to various media outlets. They say that they want more specifics about what the president did and did not sign off on when it comes to interrogation techniques. One senator very vocal about this. Senator Patrick Leahy saying "The administration has made it a practice to deny oversight cooperation to Congress. The stonewalling in the prison abuse scandal has been building to a crisis point. Now responding to public pressure, the White House has released a small subset of the documents that offers glimpses into the genesis of the scandal. All should have been provided earlier to Congress, and much more remains held back and hidden away from public view."
What we do know, Lou, is -- and what White House Counsel Alberto Gonzales did say is -- that when it comes to CIA interrogation methods, that is not included in this documentation, but he still maintains that they abided by international law. Lou, this is a controversy that is not going away any time soon.
DOBBS: And a great deal of effort will be spent in the next hours pouring over those documents as well.
Suzanne, thank you very much.
Suzanne Malveaux at the White House.
The Pentagon has also been answering its critics about the way in which it's handled enemy prisoners. A senior Pentagon official said despite reports to the contrary, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld did not approve of an interrogation method called water-boarding. It's a technique that makes a prisoner feel he's drowning.
Senior Pentagon Correspondent Jamie McIntyre with the report -- Jamie.
JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN SENIOR PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Well, Lou, we have now gotten our documents at the Pentagon as well, and they do show that commanders at Guantanamo were frustrated that they weren't getting the intelligence they wanted, asked for a series of aggressive techniques for interrogating prisoners.
Those included the use of scenarios designed to convince the detainee that his death or severely painful consequences were coming, exposure to cold weather, or water, inducing a perception of suffocating using a wet towel or pouring of water. That's the so- called water-boarding.
But only that fourth item on there, the mild non-injurious physical contact was actually approved by Rumsfeld, and that includes stuff such as grabbing someone by an arm, poking them in the chest, and that sort of thing.
However, these documents do show that other techniques were approved, including the use of marathon 20-hour interrogations, the removal of clothing, and the use of military dogs to induce stress. Now those last two, the removal of clothing and the use of dogs, Pentagon officials insist were never actually used.
And those more aggressive techniques, although they were never authorized, the Pentagon's legal counsel gave an opinion to Secretary Rumsfeld saying that they were something that were legally available to the Pentagon, simply not warranted at this time.
Overall, though, the Pentagon is hoping that the release of these documents will show that the Pentagon's actions were in accordance with U.S. law and American values -- Lou.
DOBBS: Jamie, if these documents turn out to reflect accurately the direction given by the Pentagon, it means that the definition of torture has been broadened beyond at least its traditional meaning, implying significant physical pain being inflicted. What is the Pentagon saying? How is it describing these approved practices?
MCINTYRE: Well, there's a distinction they're drawing between things that were approved or things that lawyers argued could be legally defensible and what they actually implemented in policy, and the point they're making in releasing these documents is although there's a lot of discussion of more aggressive techniques, things that could be done that might be borderline, the only things that were actually authorized or ordered or used were things that were on the low end, things that they believe most reasonable people will conclude is not torture and not a violation of the Geneva Conventions.
Of course, as you said, we'll be pouring through these documents. People will be looking at every word, looking for consistency in the Pentagon policy.
DOBBS: And the investigation, of course, continues. Thank you very much.
Jamie McIntyre, senior Pentagon correspondent.
Further setting the record straight today, the State Department has corrected an astonishing blunder in its annual report on terrorism. Officials now say international terrorists killed 625 people last year. That's more than twice the number of deaths than it reported in its April document. The State Department says clerical and administrative errors led to the mistake.
Sean Callebs reports now from Washington -- Sean.
SEAN CALLEBS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, the secretary of state says mistakes were made. Today, the administration revising the number of terrorist attacks in 2003 and detailing a sharp increase in the number of fatalities from those attacks.
In early April, when the global terrorism report first came out, it showed there were 190 terrorist attacks that claimed 307 lives. However, after Democratic Congressman Henry Waxman voiced concerns, the administration checked its facts.
New figures show a slight elevation in attacks, 208, but the number of fatalities more than doubled to 625. Critics contend the Bush administration couched the numbers to make it appear they were showing dramatic improvements in the war of terror.
Secretary of State Colin Powell says that isn't the case.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COLIN POWELL, SECRETARY OF STATE: We have only one goal with this report, and that is to accurately reflect the pattern of terrorism that existed throughout the world during the period of the report. The report is not designed to make our efforts look better or worse or terrorism look better or worse, but to provide the facts to the American people.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CALLEBS: In November of last year, several terrorist attacks in Turkey claimed 61 lives. Those attacks were not part of the initial findings, in part because a new government agency called the Terrorist Threat Integration Center is now responsible for tracking attacks and death. Some congressional Democrats contend numbers were manipulated.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. RAHM EMANUEL (D), ILLINOIS: It appears that a pattern exists of either gross incompetence or gross political manipulation, and neither is worthy of a political -- of a Cabinet secretary.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CALLEBS: Powell is adamant the message in the report is not changing. There is less state-sponsored terrorism, more plots have been thwarted, and Afghanistan is no longer a breeding ground for terrorists. When asked if anyone would be fired, the State Department coordinator for counterterrorism said mistakes should have been caught and that is a decision Secretary Powell will have to make -- Lou.
DOBBS: Sean Callebs, thank you.
Joining me to discuss this corrected State Department report on terrorism is Steven Simon. He's senior analyst and terrorism expert at the Rand Corporation joining us tonight from Washington.
Let's start. Do you accept what the secretary of state said, a simple mistake, no distortion intended?
STEVEN SIMON, RAND CORPORATION SENIOR ANALYST: Well, it -- there were a series of mistakes.
Some of the problems with the report stem from the fact that it dealt in categories that date back to a prior era when state sponsors of terrorism were the focus of attention. Now, of course the problem lies with substate groups, groups like al Qaeda and its fellow perpetrators of terrorist attacks, and the report isn't well designed to take those into account.
You know, other factors, like the choice to cut off publication on November 15, thereby excluding some very bloody attacks that took place after that, and before the end of 2003 and, of course, the counting errors were, well, you know, avoidable.
DOBBS: Avoidable. Everyone makes mistakes. It appears that more than a reasonable number of mistakes were made here based on what you're saying, Steven.
Let me ask you this. The fact that the administration took credit for the -- what appeared to be, at least in that initial report, a decline in the number of deaths and attacks -- does that put a whole new light on the issue?
SIMON: Not really, Lou. I mean, my view is that the administration looked at these numbers and they were pleased by them and they thought that they confirmed that U.S. policies and the activities of the United States and its friends and allies were having a substantial effect, just a greater effect than they were, in fact, having.
DOBBS: As you know, Democratic Congressman Henry Waxman basically says that the administration was manipulating this report. Do you discount that altogether?
SIMON: It strikes me as unlikely that the administration was cooking the books. It was more likely that they were simply taking advantage of, exploiting, if you will, mistake that had been made by others and that had gone undetected.
DOBBS: Steven Simon, the Rand Corporation.
Thanks for being here.
SIMON: Sure.
DOBBS: Radical Islamist terrorists today beheaded a South Korean hostage in Iraq. They killed the hostage after the South Korean government refused to meet their demands and abandon its plans to send 3,000 more soldiers to Iraq. Insurgents also killed two American soldiers in the town of Balad, north of Baghdad.
Christiane Amanpour reports from Baghdad.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KIM SUN-IL, SOUTH KOREAN: I don't want to die.
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Two days after releasing this harrowing video of a South Korean contractor pleading for his life, his captors killed him. U.S. soldiers found his body west of Baghdad, and officials said he was beheaded.
KIM: Please get out of here!
AMANPOUR: Thirty-three-year-old Kim Sun-il had been forced to plead with his government to accept the Islamic militants' demands: pull out all South Korean troops here and do not send the next contingent of 3,000.
The latest image showed Kim in a Guantanamo-style orange jumpsuit apparently just before he was executed. The orange jumpsuit is among the militants' political statements. Americans Nicholas Berg who was beheaded by the same people in May and Paul Johnson who was beheaded in Saudi Arabia last week were also dressed the same way.
The statement from the killers addressed to the Korean people says, "Enough of the lies. Enough of the games. You claim you're here on behalf of the Iraqi people, but you're really here on behalf of the United States." The South Korean government said it would not be deterred and would send the next contingent of troops as planned.
It was a day that did not spare Iraqis either. The dean of the law school at Mosul University in northern Iraq was assassinated along with her husband, and at least three other Iraqis were killed north of Baghdad in a roadside explosion.
Two U.S. soldiers were also killed as the relentless campaign of terror designed to derail the occupation and the new interim Iraqi government continues.
Christiane Amanpour, CNN, Baghdad.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: Tonight, U.S. forces attacked a building that the military says was a safe house used by Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, al Qaeda's leader in Iraq. A military spokesman said precision weapons destroyed the building in Fallujah. There is no word on whether the attack was successful. It was the second such attack on a suspected al Qaeda safe house in Fallujah within a week.
Iran tonight says it may free eight captured British Marines very soon, pending its investigation into their activities. Earlier, Iranian officials had said the Marines could be put on trial. Tehran says the Marines entered Iranian territorial waters, and they shot al- Arab Waterway. Britain says the troops may have crossed that line by accident.
Still ahead here, author Jorge Ramos will be here. He'll tell us why he says Latino voters will determine the outcome of the presidential election this year.
Also, scandal in the newspaper industry. Two major newspaper companies inflating their circulation figures and effectively lying to their advertisers. We'll have a report.
And democracy under threat. Protesters rally in Washington to demand paper records for e-voting machines. I'll be joined by two leading critics of e-voting, Congressman Rush Holt and California Secretary of State Kevin Shelley.
And tonight, Exporting America. Companies exporting jobs to cheap overseas labor markets also taking a toll in the real estate market. We'll have that report for you. And I'll be joined by the former U.S. Trade Representative Charlene Barshefsky next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Former president Bill Clinton began his nationwide book signing tour here in New York City, and, if the lines are any indication, he has a bestseller on his hands.
Kelly Wallace is in midtown Manhattan with a report for us -- Kelly.
KELLY WALLACE, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Lou, Bill Clinton clearly is enjoying this, his latest campaign. We know he has always loved the art of campaigning, and he seems to be relishing this opportunity to sell a ton of books and also to polish up his legacy.
He was only supposed to spend one hour in this midtown Manhattan bookstore. Well ,he was here for five years, and he just left a short time ago.
We tried to get to him and try and ask him some questions. We got up to him, and he told us -- his response was amazing when we mentioned that he's being compared to Harry Potter and being called the political Harry Potter. He joked that maybe he should get some glasses, but then his aides kind of pulled him away before we could get to some tougher subjects.
Inside this bookstore, an aide to the former president tells us that he signed nearly 2,000 books in some four-and-a-half hours, and we've been reporting throughout the day about hundred and hundreds of people, some people standing in line for 12 hours, even longer, to get a copy of the book, but also to get a signature from the former president.
He has left midtown Manhattan and is on his way up to Harlem where we are told by our reporters on the ground there there are lines just as long as we saw here in midtown Manhattan. Harlem, of course, important because that is where he is keeping his office right now.
Much has been made about how he is now a bestselling book author. Bob Barnett, the president's attorney, telling me early today that the former president now is holding the top seller spot three different places on Amazon when it comes to his book, audio excerpts, and also the sort of version for the visually impaired. So, clearly, he's got a hot back on his hands right now.
Another question we've been asking throughout the day, Lou, though, is: What impact will this all have on Campaign '04? Clinton supporters say the more he talks, the more he helps the presumptive Democratic nominee John Kerry. But conservatives say the more he talks and the more he talks about the darkest days of his presidency, including his affair with White House intern Monica Lewinsky, well, that fires up conservatives, and that helps President George W. Bush -- Lou.
DOBBS: Meanwhile president -- former President Clinton is fired up about selling books.
Kelly Wallace, thank you.
In one television interview to promote his new book, President Clinton lost his composure. Mr. Clinton became upset after repeated questions about his affair with former White House intern Monica Lewinsky. In his interview with the BBC, Clinton said the media is too easy on special prosecutor Kenneth Starr.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WILLIAM J. CLINTON, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: One of the reasons he got away with it is because people like you only ask people like me the questions. You gave him a complete free ride. Any abuse they want to do. They indicted all these little people from Arkansas.
What did you care about them? They're not famous. Who cares if their lives are trampled? Who cares if their children are humiliated? Who cares if Starr sends FBI agents to their school and rips them out of their schools to humiliate them and try to force their parents to lie about me?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: Bill Clinton on the BBC. It aired for the first time just moments ago on BBC.
Tonight, a growing scandal is raising questions about the credibility of another form of publishing, newspaper publishing. Two of the largest newspapers in the country have now admitted they inflated their circulation number and essentially lied to their advertisers and the public.
Peter Viles reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
PETER VILES, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): In the newspaper wars of Chicago and New York City, anything goes, Anything, except lying about how many papers you're selling, but, in a scandal rocking the $55-billion-a-year industry, two big papers, New York's "Newsday" and Chicago's "Sun-Times" now admit they puffed up their circulation numbers, misleading and perhaps overcharging advertisers. It began with a lawsuit alleging "Newsday" pressured its distributors to inflate sales figures.
JOSEPH GIAIMO, ATTORNEY: They were told if you want to continue to be a distribute -- the distributor -- for "Newsday," you do what we tell you. We're the bosses. We're the publishers. You're the distributor.
VILES: Former distributor Michael Pouchi says he was fired when he refused to cook the books.
MICHAEL POUCHI, FORMER "NEWSDAY" DISTRIBUTOR: No, it was pressure. People would -- certain people would come into my office and tell me if I didn't do it, I was not going to be there very long.
VILES: "Newsday"'s parent, The Tribune Co., says that lawsuit and those claims are without merit. But it did shock the industry when it admitted "Newsday" did inflate circulation by 40,000 copies a day or 7 percent and that it's Spanish paper, "Hoy," added 15,000 copies a day or 16 percent. As "Newsday" columnist Paul Vitello wrote, "In a business that prides itself on telling the truth about others, we have been caught in what looks like, walks like, and smells like a lie."
GREG MITCHELL, EDITOR, "EDITOR & PUBLISHER": Right now, it's really a problem with just a few papers, but it's an industrywide perception problem right now, and I think advertisers everywhere, Wall Street and so forth, are going to be looking at this closely because they really don't know how far this will go.
VILES: Also in Chicago, Hollinger, reeling from the ouster of CEO Conrad Black, says circulation was overstated at the "Sun-Times." It says it's still investigating how badly those books were cooked.
There are SEC investigations now at both Tribune and Hollinger. The Tribune hasn't fired anyone over this, but a circulation executive at "Newsday" was put on administrative leave -- Lou.
DOBBS: Pete, thank you very much.
Peter Viles.
A hot time on Capitol Hill today. No scandal. It was the Third Annual Congressional Chili Pepper-eating Contest. Congressman Darrell Issa of California, Congressman Pete Sessions of Texas -- well, they tied for the top prize, each of them eating nine peppers.
That was nowhere last year's more impressive performance by Congressman Joe Baca of California. Congressman Baca ate an astounding 47 jalapenos. Congressman Baca did not participate this year. Apparently, he learned something of a lesson.
When we continue, a rally on Capitol Hill for a reliable voting system in this country. Congressman Rush Holt of New Jersey and California Secretary of State Kevin Shelley are leading the effort. They are my guests.
And a call to legalize illegal aliens in order to improve Homeland Security. I'll be talking about that and the author of the "Latino Wave," Jorge Ramos.
And another damaging effect from the exporting of American jobs. It's all about real estate. It's not helping there. We'll have the report.
A great deal more still ahead. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ANNOUNCER: LOU DOBBS TONIGHT continues. Here now, for more news, debate and opinion, Lou Dobbs.
DOBBS: There's widespread concern about e-voting in this country, and hundreds of people today rallied on Capitol Hill calling for a new law to require paper records of all electronic voting. One- third of the votes cast in this country this year will be cast on those electronic machines with no paper receipts. Congressman Rush Holt of New Jersey and 140 co-sponsors are trying to change that.
Lisa Sylvester reports tonight from Washington.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LISA SYLVESTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Paperless equals powerless. Protesters rallied in Washington pushing for a backup paper ballot system for electronic voting machines. They argue without a way of verifying electronic votes, there's no way to do a recount and no way to know for sure who won an election.
REP. JANICE SCHAKOWSKY (D), ILLINOIS: How can President Bush and Republican congressional leaders who may be blocking this bill speak about exploiting democracy and freedom to nations across the world if we can't guarantee that our own citizens' votes are counted and counted accurately?
SYLVESTER The latest polls show Senator John Kerry edging President Bush by a single percentage point within the margin of error. With the presidential contest this close, it could come down to a handful of votes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They need to have the kind of system of accountability that we would want for ATMs, for gambling machines, for any electronic device we thought was particularly important, and voting is -- what could be more important?
SYLVESTER: A bill in Congress with 141 co-sponsors would require electronic voting machines have a paper record to verify results. But the legislation is opposed by disabilities groups who argue electronic voting is the only way the blind and visually impaired can cast their ballots in secret. The companies that make the electronic machines argued in a hearing last month that backup paper systems are unneeded.
WILLIAM WELSH, ELECTRONIC SYSTEMS AND SOFTWARE: We believe this option is not necessary, as it will add, clearly, to the cost and complexity to what is already a secure process.
SYLVESTER: Voter watchdog groups say it may add cost and complexity, but it's a small price to pay for certainty.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SYLVESTER (on camera): The League of Women Voters modified its position on electronic voting machines at its national convention earlier this month. The group is urging county officials to make sure their voting systems and procedures are not only secure, accurate, and accessible, but recountable -- Lou.
DOBBS: Lisa, thank you. Lisa Sylvester.
Congressman Rush Holt of New Jersey is the author of the legislation requiring a paper trail for electronic voting. Also joining us tonight, California Secretary of State, Kevin Shelley. Secretary Shelley is the first Secretary of State in the country to call for paper ballots to be standard in electronic voting machines.
Gentlemen, good to have you both with us.
CONGRESSMAN RUSH HOLT (D), NEW JERSEY: Good to be here
KEVIN SHELLEY, SECRETARY OF STATE, CALIFORNIA: Nice to be here.
DOBBS: Let me turn to you first, Congressman Holt. You had quite a demonstration in Washington. You've got 140 others joining you. What are the prospect that this legislation could move forward and accomplish anything before -- in time for the November election?
HOLT: Well, it's become something of a national movement, I would say. Members of Congress tell me at town meetings all over the country this is one of the first subjects that's brought up. So, certainly, the public pressure is to move.
The process here in the committee, though, seems to be stalled. And that was really the point of today's demonstration, I guess you would call it, here in Washington, to say that this -- we're getting -- we're running out of time. We're getting near the deadline of getting something done in time for this year's election.
DOBBS: Congressman, Bob Ney, Congressman Steny Hoyer, Senators McConnell and Dodd, they say that your proposal, effectively, is premature. How do you respond to them?
HOLT: You know, talk to these hundreds of thousands, millions of voters. I'm very pleased to see how seriously people are taking this. They -- it's a sign that they believe their vote is, indeed, sacred, and they're willing to travel to Washington in today's case to make that point.
I think this is really a fulfillment of the Help America Vote Act, not a revision of it. I think, in fact, it adds the principle of verifiability to the principle -- to the principle of accessibility. So, it does nothing to deter voters with physical disabilities, for example. It just makes the vote verifiable, auditable.
DOBBS: Do you concur, Secretary Shelley?
SHELLEY: I do. In fact, as you mentioned earlier, California is the first state to actually put in place standards for a voter verified paper trail. And we took great pains to ensure that our paper trail requirement ensures that it's fully accessible to the disabled community.
So, I would agree with the Congressman that the mere fact of requiring a paper trail doesn't, in and of itself, have to be disincentive for disabled voters.
DOBBS: Four registrars -- four of your county registrars in California have said your mandates, basically, are going to force them to go to paper ballots. Which is worse: e-voting without a paper record or paper ballots? SHELLEY: Well, I would respectfully disagree with them. What we're doing here in California is we're providing voters the option. They can vote on the touchscreen voting devices or they can vote on a paper ballot, if they so choose.
We're not requiring one or the other; we're providing the voters with the option. I simply would question, whether it be to a vendor or anyone else for that matter, why wouldn't we want to take every step to provide the security and protections for that most sacred expression of our democracy, the right to vote.
DOBBS: Let me ask you both this one question -- and we're out of time, really. But quickly: what is the cost of adding a paper record to e-voting? What is the -- what's the cost?
HOLT: It's not prohibitive. It would vary from manufacturer to manufacturer what it would be. But you know, just to paraphrase the late President Reagan, you know, trust is no substitute for verification.
DOBBS: Secretary Shelley, you get the last word.
SHELLEY: What is the cost of our democracy? I think every voter has to have the confidence that his or her vote will be counted as it was cast. That's the cornerstone of our democracy, and we have to protect it and we must.
DOBBS: Secretary of State of California, we appreciate it -- Kevin Shelley -- and Congressman Rush Holt of New Jersey. Thank you, gentlemen.
SHELLEY: Thank you very much.
DOBBS: That brings us to the subject of our poll tonight. The question is: Should e-voting without a paper record be banned? Yes or no. Cast your vote at CNN.COM/LOU. We'll have the results for you coming up later in the broadcast.
And tonight's thought is on democracy. "It is not the voting that's democracy. It's the counting." English playwright Tom Stoppard.
And tonight, the exporting of America. It's having a profound effect on this nation's real estate market. Companies that are shipping American jobs to cheap overseas labor markets are also hurting this country's real estate market.
Kitty Pilgrim reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KITTY PILGRIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Many rural areas in the west and south are home to a call center, back office operation or customer support center. But a recent survey by a Chicago real estate firm found 80 percent of companies plan to increase the number of office support jobs they move overseas. BRUCE RUTHERFORD, JONES LANG LASALLE, INC.: Most of these kinds of jobs in the United States have long since migrated from the major inner cities to more rural and suburban locations where labor costs were lower and real estate was less expensive. Now that some of those jobs are being offshored, it's those markets that will be most affected by that activity.
PILGRIM: The survey of Fortune 1,000 companies found: 78 percent plan to offshore more call center work; 64 percent back office accounting, finance, and human resources departments; 77 percent information technology, R&D, and software programming.
Rutherford cites places with many call centers like Phoenix and Little Rock, states such as Mississippi, Louisiana, Florida, and Texas as vulnerable areas. The University of California at Berkeley has also done a study on real estate and job loss overseas. They say a combination of slow job growth, technological improvements to replace workers, and shipping jobs overseas are depressing commercial real estate.
CYNTHIA KROLL, FISHER CENTER FOR REAL ESTATE, UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA, BERKELEY: The kinds of buildings that are most at risk are buildings that were built for back office work 20 years ago. You know, the ones that drew workers out to the suburbs. It may become harder and harder to lease those buildings, particularly in a situation where we have a 15 to 20 percent vacancy rate in many markets.
PILGRIM: Kroll cites the obvious examples of Silicon Valley, but also adds such major metropolitan areas around Atlanta and Dallas.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM (on camera): Now, even if there are no comprehensive national surveys, there's plenty of anecdotal evidence that outsourcing is causing pressure on the commercial real estate markets in certain regions of the country, mostly in the south and the west -- Lou.
DOBBS: Kitty, thanks very much. Kitty Pilgrim.
Coming up next, our worsening record trade deficits. Former U.S. Trade Representative Charlene Barshefsky is my guest. We'll be talking about whether we can afford anymore free trade.
Also, the Latino factor in this year's presidential election. I'll be talking with author Jorge Ramos who says Latinos will elect our next president.
That and much more still ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: We have, of course, reported here extensively on the U.S. record trade deficit and this year it is expected to top last year's by a healthy margin. Joining me now for more on the worsening record trade deficits, former U.S. trade representative Charlene Barshefsky who served as trade representative and deputy trade representative during the Clinton administration. In that time, of course, working on NAFTA, China's entry into the World Trade Organization. Charlene Barshefsky joins me now here in New York. Good to have you with us.
CHARLENE BARSHEFSKY, FORMER U.S.T.P.: Pleasure to be here.
DOBBS: Half a trillion dollars in trade deficits. Imports are raising, exports, in fact, in the last month declined. 28 years of trade deficits. And we have people in this country actually talking about free trade. It sounds like an awfully high price to me.
BARSHEFSKY: We've had trade deficits, as you said, for a very long time. Yet, this is the world's most productive economy. It is the world's strongest economy still. If I use the 1990s as an example, we had large structural trade deficits, 22 million new jobs, an unemployment rate of 4 percent, a 30-percent growth in our GDP, and we became the world's most competitive economy. If you pay attention to economic management, you can make it work.
DOBBS: Economic management. I suspect, Charlene, that there are people who would say to you, yes but four years of that administration, we were effectively in a bubble. And that distorts things a bit. Others might say to you that after 28 years and over the past four that -- almost -- that we have experienced trade deficits, that we're reaching a point with $3.5 trillion in external trade debt that it is bone crushing. And if we can talk about competitiveness in this country, why in the world can't we reach a level of balanced trade? Why don't we have a policy about balanced trade? That's not protectionism. That's not isolationism. That's just good sense.
BARSHEFSKY: I think we don't have a policy of balanced trade because we think it's not realistic. These structural numbers are very, very hard to move. In addition, the implication of balanced trade is that as an economy, we're disadvantaged by imports. Imports keep our inflation rate low. Imports stretch the value of the dollar. And imports also are job creating in some industries. So the picture is actually much more complicated. From my point of view, one of the things that we ought to be focusing on is our export performance. Our export performance is not very good. That is critical to our health.
DOBBS: But our manufacturing base, we've lost 3 million manufacturing jobs and this is a direct result of NAFTA. It is a direct result of the policies that we pursued and I know you're just going to love this, but it's my opinion, of the policy we've pursued with China. We have $124 billion trade debt with China. It is rising toward 140 billion this year. Why in the world does it make sense to continue that kind of performance?
BARSHEFSKY: Well, let's talk about the manufacturing job loss. There's been a 25-year decline in manufacturing jobs in the U.S. At the same time U.S. productivity and efficiencies have increased. Manufacturing output in the U.S. in the 1990s increased by one-third with almost 20 million fewer...
DOBBS: Productivity roars, yes, productivity roars.
BARSHEFSKY: Manufacturing output. The point is that about 80 percent of job loss in the U.S. is IT-related and productivity- related. About 20 percent is trade and other factors. We can't discount the productivity factor.
DOBBS: I love productivity. What I don't love is looking out on a 30-year period and seeing that working men and women are basically achieving nothing in the way of wage improvement. I don't like seeing what was once a technology surplus in our trade relationships with the world is now a trade deficit. Our one-time large surplus and services has declined over 30 percent in the past four years.
BARSHEFSKY: I'd put those statistics under the rubric of competitiveness.
DOBBS: So would I.
BARSHEFSKY: I'm very worried about longer-term American competitiveness. I don't necessarily rely on the same statistics that you do with respect to competitive threat. But I do think there is a competitiveness concern law...
DOBBS: I don't think we need much of a competitive threat. We're giving away, basically, our knowledge base, our technology and our jobs. I'd like you to come back as soon as possible to talk about those threats and we can unwind some of the complexities.
BARSHEFSKY: I'd love to.
DOBBS: Thank you very much. Charlene Barshefsky.
Coming up next. We'll share your thoughts on the exporting of America and the burden on our middle class.
Also, my next guest says the United States should have an open immigration policy with Mexico and an amnesty program for the eight to 12 million illegal aliens already living in this country. I'll be talking about these issues next with Jorge Ramos, author of "The Latino Wave." Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Officials in San Francisco tonight are considering whether to allow non-U.S. citizens to vote in their school board elections. That would mean any non-U.S. citizen, even an illegal alien, would be allowed to vote if that person has a child in the public school system. The proposal is expected to pass a vote by the San Francisco Board of Supervisors this summer and be placed on election ballots in November. Takoma Park, Maryland already allows non-U.S. citizens to vote in its municipal elections. And Amherst, Massachusetts has filed a bill in the state legislature to allow the same practice. Progress moves on.
Well, my guest tonight has written a provocative and an interesting book entitled "The Latino Wave, How Hispanics Will Elect the Next American President." Jorge Ramos is the anchor (UNINTELLIGIBLE) Univision and he sets forth a case to give amnesty to illegal aliens already in this country suggesting it is, in fact, necessary for our homeland security and he sets forth an entire agenda for the Latino/Hispanic minority in this country. Jorge Ramos joins me now from Albuquerque, New Mexico. Jorge, it is good to have you with us.
I have enjoyed your book. As you and I both surmised, we don't agree with one another. But a provocative book, an important book, I think, nonetheless. You said that you wrote the book to begin to understand this issue. And the first thing I don't understand is the use of Hispanic and Latino and one preference for the other in this country. Could you explain why it is a Latino wave instead of a Hispanic wave.
JORGE RAMOS, AUTHOR, "THE LATINO WAVE": It could have been "The Hispanic Wave." Really, we use both terms without any distinction. The important thing is that Latinos are 40 million right now. In 50 years from now there will be 100 million Latinos or Hispanics. And in 120 years from now when I'm sorry to say none of us is going to be here, there will be more Hispanics than non-Hispanic whites. That doesn't mean that Latinos want to take over or that Latinos want to create a nation within a nation. It simply means that Latinos will have a very important prominent part in the future of the United States.
DOBBS: You say that. But I detect from a very benign beginning, I thought, Jorge, in which you talked about the demographics that are changing and the fact that Hispanics are now the largest minority population in this country. You moved, if I may, to cultural machismo, talking about how this will be effectively a Latin nation by the conclusion. Can you sort that out for us?
RAMOS: Absolutely. We are going through a process of Latinization. Latinos are affecting everything in this country from politics to the economy to music to food. More tortillas are being sold than bagels, more salsa than ketchup. But at the same time Latinos are going through a process of Americanization. In other words, Latin American immigrants are learning English at a very fast pace. Second generation Latinos feel more comfortable in English than in Spanish like my son Nicholas (ph). Third generation Latinos tend to marry outside their Hispanic community and there are millions of Latinos who are becoming U.S. citizens. I was in Iraq about a year ago. I saw thousands of Hispanic soldiers fighting for this country. So I think it would be unwise and unfair to criticize Latinos for not being loyal or patriotic enough.
DOBBS: Oh, I think that would be very unwise. Since we're being candid, I think it's very unwise, perhaps, to -- I guess -- let me back up before I say it's unwise. That's my first instinct. But the fact is when you talk about the Latino vote and you talked about achieving political domination in the country effectively by the end of the book, does this not invite some charge of ethnic imperialism on your part? RAMOS: No, not at all. Again, Latinos do not want to take over. As a matter of fact, the problem that we have in the Hispanic community is that we are underrepresented politically. We don't even have one senator. We don't even have one judge on the Supreme Court. We only have one governor, Bill Richardson Lopez in New Mexico.
Basically what I'm proposing is that the country is divided politically between President Bush and John Kerry. It is polarized by the war. What I'm saying is that 8 million Hispanic voters will decide who the next president of the United States is because Latinos are concentrated in ten states. Among them five battleground states, Florida, Arizona, New Mexico, Colorado and Nevada. So, therefore, I truly believe Hispanics will have the crucial vote in this election. I spoke with President Bush and with John Kerry and they both also agree with the possibility that Latinos might decide this election. Latinos might become the ultimate swing vote. The importance of the Hispanic vote is defined by its ability to determine an election despite the fact that Latinos, of course, are not the majority.
DOBBS: Jorge, you also deal with the issue of not only political importance, if not domination on the part of the community, but, at the same time, you acknowledge it's very difficult to define that community. There are other ethnic minorities and one could argue whether Hispanic is truly an ethnic minority. But that's another discussion for another day. But the fact is, if Latinos and Hispanics vote in blocs as certain other ethnic minorities do, other special interests would do, what is the net contribution to our body politic (ph) in this country?
RAMOS: Well, Latinos are a very important part of this country. Historically, 70 percent of Latinos have voted for the Democratic party. About 30 percent of Latinos tend to vote more for the Republican party. I think that Latinos underline the multicultural, multiracial, multiethnic characteristics of the United States. One of the most important things about the presence of Latinos in the United States is that they underline the fact that this country is great thanks to this tolerance for diversity, thanks -- well, that's one of the most important things. It is a diverse country and Latinos underline this.
RAMOS: Yes, Jorge, I would only say -- and I hope you will come back and talk about this. And the book is "The Latino Wave." Can you see it there? There we go. It's a terrific read. It reads -- it's very provocative. I hope you'll come back and we can discuss it more.
RAMOS: We'll talk about immigration, too, if you want.
DOBBS: I would love to talk about immigration. Multiculturalism, I would just point out one thing. This was the most diverse society on the face of the planet long before illegal immigration of the last 20 years. It is the country itself that has provided that diversity.
RAMOS: I would call it undocumented immigration but we can talk about it.
DOBBS: You can call it what you wish. It is the great thing about being in America, isn't it?
RAMOS: Absolutely. It is fantastic to be here in this country. This country gave me the opportunity that my country of origin couldn't give me.
DOBBS: Jorge Ramos, great to talk with you. Come back soon.
Coming up next, many of you were outraged at the outsourcing of U.S. military supplies to foreign countries. We'll hear your thoughts on the issue and more next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Taking a look now at some of your thoughts. Joe Candito of Massachusetts. "I am outraged regarding the U.S. government's policy to allow foreign countries to manufacture bullets and uniforms for our military. The people of the U.S. should tell Congress, no more."
And Bill Trainer, Pennsylvania. "Millions of Americans drink their German beer and French wine, don their Malaysian-made shirts and turn on their Japanese-made TVs and drive their Volvos down to hear and cheer Kerry rant about Judas CEOs. Is there anyone with more than three brain cells who does not understand that we can't spend all of our money on foreign-made products and then expect to keep jobs here."
We love hearing from you. Send us your thoughts at loudobbs@CNN.com.
Coming up next, the results of our poll tonight. Please stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: The results of our poll tonight. 94 percent of you say e-voting without a paper record should be banned. 6 percent of you say it should not. Thanks for being with us tonight. Please join us tomorrow. We'll have a debate in our face-off. American government contracts being awarded to foreign companies. Should the practice be continued?
And we'll have a special report on what America's Olympians will be wearing. Those uniforms, much of that equipment, not made in the USA. Please be with us. For all of us here, good night from New York. "ANDERSON COOPER 360" is next.
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