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Lou Dobbs Tonight
Three U.S. Marines Killed in Iraq; New Iraqi Government Will Take Legal Custody of Saddam
Aired June 29, 2004 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
KITTY PILGRIM, GUEST HOST: Tonight, a deadly insurgent attack on American troops in Iraq. One day after the handover of power, three U.S. Marines are killed.
Former secretary of state Madeleine Albright says Iraq has become a magnet for international terrorists. Madeleine Albright is my guest tonight.
Controversy at the Supreme Court. The justices ruled that a law to protect children from online pornography could threaten free speech.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Unfortunately, I think the kids lost on this one and the adult pornographers won.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PILGRIM: Also tonight, protests in Southern California as the U.S. Border Patrol rounds up illegal aliens in Los Angeles and San Diego.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If you look brown, if you speak English with an accent, you will be questioned by the Border Patrol.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And liftoff of...
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PILGRIM: And the most expensive unmanned space flight ever approaches Saturn. A seven-year journey across more than two billion miles in space. I will be joined by astrophysicist Charles Liu.
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT for Tuesday, June 29. Here now for an hour of news, debate and opinion, sitting in for Lou Dobbs, Kitty Pilgrim.
PILGRIM: Good evening. One day after the United States handed over power to the Iraqis, insurgents killed three U.S. Marines. Two other Marines were wounded. The insurgents ambushed the Marines' convoy in Baghdad. A roadside bomb destroyed a humvee escorting trucks.
Meanwhile, the new Iraqi government declared it will take legal custody of Saddam Hussein tomorrow.
Brent Sadler reports from Baghdad.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BRENT SADLER, CNN BEIRUT BUREAU CHIEF (voice-over): The status of Iraq's once untouchable ruler is about to change. Saddam Hussein will be transferred from American to Iraqi legal custody to face charges in an open court this week, though he'll remain under U.S. lock and key. It won't be the start of a full trial for alleged war crimes, including genocide, but the first step.
Iraqi authorities here say arrest warrants were issued for the ex-president and 11 of his top officials, including one of the most well-known faces from the old regime, former deputy prime minister Tariq Aziz.
IYAD ALLAWI, IRAQI INTERIM PRIME MINISTER (through translator): The judicial process may take some time. Justice will be done, however, and the progress of these cases will be done for all to see.
SADLER: But even as the newly empowered government finds its feet, U.S. forces came under renewed attack in Baghdad. Iraqi security forces also came under attack. Police stations were hit by rocket and machine-gun fire, inflicting light casualties.
The oil infrastructure was also targeted again, this time south of Baghdad where saboteurs blew up a pipeline, aiming to disrupt exports of crude oil. In response, Iraqi authorities are set to impose tough new security measures to crack down on the militants.
BARHAM SALEH, INTERIM DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER: It will involve giving the government the ability to, for example, impose curfews and put in place the legal mechanisms by which dangerous people could be detained. But we have to do all these things mindful of our moral and legal obligations towards human rights.
SADLER: On the diplomatic front, the United States has restored relations with Iraq, broken after the 1990 invasion of Kuwait. The new U.S. ambassador, John Negroponte, has been sent to hold the fort in the so-called green zone, home of the old occupation authority and the target of recent rocket attacks and car bombs.
(on camera): The interim government is expected to have a limited life of just seven months until elections. But, in the meantime, the leadership will try to prove its mettle by taking action to confront the insurgents with its newfound power.
Brent Sadler, CNN, Baghdad. (END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: New developments tonight in the story of a Marine corporal missing in Iraq. The Marine was last seen 10 days ago. Insurgents are saying they're holding him prisoner.
Pentagon Correspondent Barbara Starr reports -- Barbara.
BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Kitty, hello to you.
The Pentagon has not yet made an official announcement, but sources telling the news media, yes, that Corporal Wassef Hassoun is being reclassified now as captured, several days after he was seen on a videotape blindfolded and with a sword held to his head.
Again today, a family member, this time his brother, made an appeal for his life.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SAMI HASSOUN, BROTHER OF CAPTURED MARINE: I would like to call on all the ambassadors in the whole countries around the world, especially around Iraq, to help us. Please help us in our case with our brother.
He's with the Marines. He was doing his job. We never hurt nobody in our whole life. He's a very innocent person. He was just doing his job like everybody else.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
STARR: Now the Marine Corps is preparing to issue a statement tonight that says, "While his absence initially prompted investigators to believe he was missing, the video shown on international television depicted the Marine being held against his will by masked captors."
What is so mysterious in this case is the working theory, is the corporal initially left his camp sometime around June 19 or June 20 of his own free will, an unauthorized absence, however. The belief was he was having some problems and possibly trying to make his way to family members in Lebanon from his duty station in Iraq.
But the next time he was seen was on that videotape blindfolded and being held by insurgents. No one knows how he fell into the hands of the insurgents, and the entire matter still remains under investigation. While they search for him, this is all a working theory at the moment, all of it still under investigation -- Kitty.
PILGRIM: All right. Thanks very much.
Barbara Starr.
President Bush today said freedom is the future of the Middle East. The president said Turkey is an example of how democracy can flourish in the Muslim world.
John King is traveling with the president and reports tonight from Istanbul, Turkey.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JOHN KING, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): In the shadow of an Istanbul mosque, the president optimistically cast the political transition in Iraq as just the beginning.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I believe that freedom is the future of the Middle East because I believe that freedom is the future of all humanity.
KING: Iraq's new government assumed power just a day ago, yet Mr. Bush said already it stands in stark contrast to oppressive regimes in Iran and Syria.
BUSH: The rise of Iraqi democracy is bringing hope to reformers across the Middle East and sending a very different message to Tehran and Damascus.
KING: The backdrop was part of the message as the president held out Turkey as an example for those who questioned whether predominantly Muslim nations are suited for democracy.
And as he held out political reform as the antidote to the hatred that fuels terrorism, the president chastised his own country as among those that, when it came to the Middle East, for too long put security and oil ahead of human rights.
BUSH: It has not made Western nations more secure to ignore the cycle of dictatorship and extremism.
KING: At the NATO summit, Mr. Bush won a modest commitment to help train new Iraqi security forces and, in his speech before heading home, cast the transfer of sovereignty as the opening of a new chapter after months of setbacks.
BUSH: The world has seen a great event in the history of Iraq, in the history of the Middle East and in the history of liberty.
KING: The president is not scheduled to travel overseas again until after the November election, and his optimistic outlook on Iraq is very much aimed at shaping the political climate back home.
(on camera): Yet this new beginning the president speaks of is also for him a new period of political risk. Mr. Bush now has considerably less say over how Iraq is governed, yet still has nearly 140,000 troops there in the line of fire.
John King, CNN, Istanbul.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: During his speech today, President Bush ignored criticism from French president Jacques Chirac, and again asked the European Union to admit Turkey. Now President Bush said Turkey, as a European power, belongs in the European Union. Yesterday, President Chirac said President Bush has no right to tell Europe how to manage its relations with Turkey.
Well, as John King just reported, NATO leaders agreed to help train Iraqi security forces and send a small number of additional troops to Afghanistan. Officials say the agreement shows that NATO has transformed itself from a Cold War Defense Alliance, but critics say NATO is rapidly losing its relevance in a world facing new types of threats.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: (voice-over): French president Jacques Chirac came out strongly out against NATO troops being in Iraq. France is a prominent member of NATO.
JACQUES CHIRAC, FRENCH PRESIDENT (through interpreter): There was no question about the presence of NATO troops or NATO of any other form in Iraq. That being said, on a personal note, I would be entirely hostile to any presence of NATO in Iraq.
PILGRIM: NATO has agreed to train Iraqi troops, but some say that's not sufficient.
LAWRENCE KAPLAN, HUDSON INSTITUTE: Essentially, NATO has offered to train Iraqi soldiers and Iraqi police, but, of course, they've refused to provide more troops for Iraq, and what Iraq really needs right now is security. It does not need a symbolic gesture.
PILGRIM: NATO forces were used in the conflicts in Bosnia and Kosovo. Some 60,000 troops from nearly 30 countries, including NATO members, in Bosnia, and 55,000 troops from NATO countries and others in Kosovo.
CLIFF KUPCHAN, NIXON CENTER: They perceived those crises to be on than front doorstep. They were scared of refugees, they were scared of regional instability. They don't see that in Iraq.
PILGRIM: For that reason, some question whether the difference of viewpoint can be resolved.
IVO DAALDER, BROOKINGS INSTITUTION: The truth here is that the alliance is coming to a turning point. Either we find a way to jointly do the fundamental security challenges that we face today or we won't, and, if we won't, then there is going to be a real question about what the value of that alliance really is.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: Now this transatlantic rift may prove to be politics as usual, but some worry it's the Iraqi people who will pay the highest price for NATO's failure to come together.
Well, the Army is preparing to call up as many as 6,500 Reserve soldiers from the rarely tapped individual ready reserve.\ The military says the troops have critical skills needed in Afghanistan and Iraq. It's the first time the Pentagon has called up significant numbers of troops from the individual ready reserve since the Gulf War in 1991.
The United States today said it expelled two Iranians for spying. FBI agents saw the Iranians taking pictures of New York City landmarks and transportation systems. The State Department has long accused Iran of being a state sponsor of international terrorism. Richard Roth reports from the United Nations.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
RICHARD ROTH, CNN U.N. CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The two Iranians were security guards here at Iran's mission to the United Nations. They were accused by the U.S. of conduct inconsistent with their jobs.
STUART HOLLIDAY, DEPUTY U.S. AMBASSADOR TO U.N.: These individuals were moving around New York City and essentially surveilling, taking photographs of a variety of New York landmarks and infrastructure and the rest.
ROTH: Officials say the duo were seen photographing transportation systems, such as subways and buses. They say photos of other sensitive sites were also snapped, including tunnels. But officials would not disclose which particular landmarks might have been filmed.
This is the third pair of Iranian security guards to be required to leave by the U.S. in the last two years. Last November, at this Queens, New York, subway station, a New York City transit officer detained two Iranians who the police commissioner later described as agents engaged in reconnaissance of the subway.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We had also made it clear that this kind of activity was unacceptable, and yet it continued in this latest case, so we were really left -- this was the option that we were left with.
ROTH: The government of Iran sharply disagrees. A spokesman for the Iranian mission said the photos they shot were consistent with obvious and popular tourist attractions in New York City.
The statement says millions of visitors come to New York with cameras and that it is very unfortunate that regular sightseeing and shooting photos by two guards at this mission on a holiday became so contentious and controversial.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ROTH: There are five guards at any time at the Iranian mission, but they only stay for four or five months. So it's not clear whether they were, indeed, trying to be tourists here in New York City.
There's no U.S. law against taking photos in these public places, but, at the same time, New York is trying to ban people from taking photos, no matter who they are, in the subways and buses due to the fear of terrorism -- Kitty.
PILGRIM: All right. Thanks very much. Richard Roth.
Still ahead, former secretary of state Madeleine Albright says Iraq has become a magnet for international terrorists. Madeleine Albright will join me next.
Vice President Dick Cheney has been criticized over the war in Iraq and his ties with the oil industry. Veteran political journalist James Gannon says President Bush needs a new running mate. James Gannon is my guest.
And in Broken Borders, federal agents have arrested hundreds of illegal aliens in Southern California this month, and now those agents stand accused of racial profiling. We'll have a special report.
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PILGRIM: My first guest says Iraq has become a magnet and a gathering ground for international terrorists. Today, insurgents killed U.S. Marines in Baghdad and launched a series of attacks on Iraqi police. Now the Marines were the first American fatalities since the United States handed over power to the Iraqis yesterday.
Joining me now is former secretary of state Madeleine Albright.
And thank you very much for joining us this evening.
MADELEINE ALBRIGHT, FORMER SECRETARY OF STATE: Good to be with you, Kitty.
PILGRIM: Secretary Albright, how confident are you that Prime Minister Allawi and his colleagues will be able to maintain peace going forward?
ALBRIGHT: Well, they have a very hard job ahead of them, and I'm glad that they are, in fact, in charge. But they're going to need a lot of work and help, especially on the security issue, because there has to be reconstruction, and we have to get help -- they have to get ready for elections.
But the security issue continues to be the main one. And the question is how much help they will get in that. Our forces are obviously remaining there. But we also have to make sure that more Iraqis are trained in order to deal with the security issue themselves.
The Iraqi army is not able to defense the country against insurgents at this point. We have about 140,000 troops there. How long do you expect that they should remain?
ALBRIGHT: I think that's very hard to say. I think -- we know that there will not be really a permanent Iraqi government in place until the end of next year, and I don't think we can just kind of leave because we -- this is a situation that is now chaotic, that I think is attracting a lot of outside fighter. And then we have the whole problem of the insurgency in Iraq. And the real question, Kitty, is whether the Iraqis that are being trained will be willing to fight Iraqis. That is one of the hardest parts and one of the unanswered questions.
PILGRIM: Very difficult. We just mentioned the role of NATO and did a bit of analysis on that. You were very active with the Bosnia and Kosovo situations. What do you see as the role of NATO going forward in Iraq?
ALBRIGHT: Well, I am a great believer in NATO, but it has to be relevant to what is going on, and it does require a great deal of work by the United States to get the allies to go along and to have them understand where their national interest is engaged. And I agree that NATO, in order to be relevant, is going to have to participate in some way in these out-of-area activities.
Now, in Iraq, they had said they were going to help the trainers. I also think that they could have been useful in terms of helping to seal borders and working when it will be necessary to surge for the elections. But I've also heard that they are not -- the French have blocked some activity by NATO in Afghanistan.
So there clearly are problems inside NATO, and they have to be managed. We did -- we were able to do that, both in Bosnia and Kosovo. But I know it takes a lot of diplomatic work.
PILGRIM: President Bush has said that democracy in Iraq is a starting point for Middle East peace. How do you feel about that, and do you think a democratized Iraq is a very good start for the Middle East peace process?
ALBRIGHT: Well, I think the Middle East peace process -- it's really being done backwards. The road to Jerusalem is not through Baghdad, and I think that not enough attention has been paid to the Middle East peace process in the last three years.
I've kind of said that the road map was never taken out of the glove compartment, and it requires a lot of work. I hope very much for a democratized Iraq. I ultimately believe that everybody wants to be able to make decisions about the way his or her government is run. But, as far as the Middle East peace process is concerned, this is backwards.
PILGRIM: Let me talk about something else Bush mentioned today. President Bush mentioned that Turkey would serve as a very nice role model for the rest of the world in terms of a Muslim country being integrated into the European Union. What do you think about those comments and the role of Turkey as a role model?
ALBRIGHT: Well, I think Turkey is very important, and it is a secular Muslim country. It is not an Arab country, however. And having just been in Turkey myself, they don't like to be talked about as a role model. They can see themselves as maybe setting some kind of an example. But, clearly, it is possible to have a secular Muslim republic, and I think that there -- it would be important to have a secular approach to this. But the most important thing is Turkey is a bridge, a very important country, and I hope very much that the EU understands the importance of Turkey's membership.
PILGRIM: Secretary Albright, we spend a good part of our broadcast every night talking about terrorism, and you have been quoted as saying there's a real question whether America is safer today as a result of the Iraq war. Do you see the terrorism connection and the Iraq war as something that's perhaps delinked at this point?
ALBRIGHT: Well, I never did see a connection between Saddam Hussein, al Qaeda and 9/11, and I think it was unfortunate that that linkage was told to the American people, and I do hope very much that we can continue to figure out how to deal with the threat of terrorism.
But it is not something that is directly connected to 9/11, and I think my own question for myself is I don't feel particularly safer. I think homeland security -- in many ways, there are very many aspects that work, but there are a lot of holes, and we have to continue to deal with the worldwide threat of terrorism.
And, in that, we need the help of Muslim countries. We cannot do this by ourselves, and we need our allies, and we need the moderate Muslim countries to help us.
PILGRIM: All right. Thank you very much.
Former secretary of state Madeleine Albright.
Thank you.
ALBRIGHT: Thank you, Kitty.
PILGRIM: When we return, a new low for President Bush's approval ratings. We'll have the latest from the campaign trail.
Plus, veteran journalist James Gannon will tell us why he believes President Bush needs a new running mate.
Also ahead, the Supreme Court decides whether a law designed to protect children from Internet pornography also violates free speech. We'll have a special report on that.
And then, a call center in this country that's hiring, not firing American workers. That and much more still ahead still tonight.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ANNOUNCER: LOU DOBBS TONIGHT continues. Sitting in for Lou Dobbs, Kitty Pilgrim.
PILGRIM: In tonight's Campaign Journal, Senator John Kerry today focused on education. In Chicago, Senator Kerry promoted his education policies at the Annual Rainbow/PUSH Coalition and Citizen Education Fund Conference. Senator Kerry also spoke about American jobs going to cheap foreign labor markets, and he said he has a plan to keep the good-paying jobs in the United States.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. JOHN KERRY (D-MA), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: When I am president, no American taxpayer will ever again subsidize the loss of their own job. We're going to stop that. It's absurd.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PILGRIM: And the latest "New York Times"/CBS poll shows 45 percent of registered voters nationwide still support Senator Kerry. President Bush is not far behind with 44 percent. But when Ralph Nader is included, he draws 5 percent, and that leaves President Bush on top with 43 percent and Kerry with 42 percent.
Now the latest polls also show President Bush's approval rating has fallen to its lowest level during his presidency. Only 42 percent of those polled approve of how President Bush is handling the job.
My next guest calls himself a longtime admirer of Vice President Dick Cheney, but he says Mr. Cheney should step aside in this election for the good of President Bush and the Republican Party.
Now veteran journalist James Gannon wrote an open letter to the vice president in "USA Today," and in it, he says, "Nobody knows better than you do that you have become a lightning rod for criticism, fair or not. It is simply too easy to paint Dick Cheney as a tool of the oil industry and a too-eager advocate of the war in Iraq." That's a quote.
James Gannon is the former editor of "The Des Moines Register." He joins us tonight from Charlottesville, Virginia.
And thanks very much for joining us.
JAMES GANNON, FORMER NEWSPAPER EDITOR: Glad to be with you.
PILGRIM: What is your biggest concern about the vice president?
GANNON: Well, my biggest concern is that the vice president has become such a target for Democrats and a very easy target. So many things that he can be criticized for, fairly or unfairly.
As you said, I'm -- I don't have any personal animosity toward the vice president. In fact, I've always rather thought he was a very able, competent public servant. And he's been very loyal to President Bush, and we all appreciate that.
But he has become a target of the Democrats on many of these counts: the Halliburton ties, the fact that he was very strong advocate of the war in Iraq and a strong advocate of the idea that there were weapons of mass destruction. So much of this turned out to be wrong, and now he -- I see him as a political liability.
And what has surprised me is that there really has been very little discussion of this, and I think there ought to be some discussion about whether he actually helps Bush get reelected or hurts him, and I believe he's probably going to hurt him.
PILGRIM: Has the vice president responded to your open letter, Jim?
GANNON: I have heard nothing from anyone in the Cheney camp, no.
PILGRIM: I have to ask you: Did you expect a response?
GANNON: No, I didn't really expect a response. I mean, how could they respond? I wrote the piece mainly because I was surprised that no one has really raised the question. It seems to be the unmentionable subject, and everyone assumes that Cheney will be the vice president, and he probably will be. The chances are slim that any change would be made.
But if you look at the thing subjectively and the fact that he may, in fact hurt the president -- and this latest incident on the Senate floor doesn't help at all -- then, you know, you have to raise the question: If Bush really wants to get reelected, would he be better off with another new running mate?
PILGRIM: Do you think this incident, the swearing incident on the Senate floor is trivial, or do you think it's substantive?
GANNON: I don't think it's important as an issue, and I think that kind of language probably goes on frequently among politicians privately. But the fact that he uttered it on the Senate floor and that it was heard and then the fact that he basically sort of defended it and said I feel better about saying it, there's something about that that bothers a lot of people, and it sort of reinforces the idea that Cheney is this arrogant guy who thinks he's always right, and I think that's an image that hurts him and by implication hurts the president on the ticket.
PILGRIM: You don't write a letter like this without having an idea of what you think a winning ticket would look like. What do you think?
GANNON: Well, I think there are a lot of possibilities for a ticket that would have a better chance to win at least. The first rule in picking vice presidents or keeping vice presidents is first do no harm, and, if a running mate appears to be doing some harm or being a liability, then you have to think about a change.
A couple of presidents during wartime have already done this. FDR, Franklin Roosevelt, during the second world war, dumped his vice president, Henry Wallace, and picked Harry Truman, who soon became president. And during the Civil War, Lincoln made a change in vice presidents. So, it wouldn't be unprecedented.
And I think that there are many possibilities. I mentioned Senator McCain. John Kerry thought McCain would made a good running mate for him. Well, he'd make an even better running mate for Bush because he's a strong conservative. He's a Republican. He backs the war. He's more in line, in fact, with Bush on social issues than he would be with Kerry. So, if it was a good idea for Kerry, it's an even better idea for Bush.
PILGRIM: John McCain said he doesn't want to be vice president. Do you think he's -- he can change his mind?
GANNON: Anyone who's asked has to say, "I don't want to be vice president," until the candidate or the president asks him, "Do you want to be vice president?" And then you can have a different answer.
I don't have any doubt that Senator McCain would be happy to be on the ticket as a vice president, because it would position him, if he wants, to run for president -- if they won, that is. If they won in 2004, he could be -- have a leg up on the nomination in 2008.
PILGRIM: There have been some tensions between McCain and Bush. Although he came to his side just recently...
GANNON: Right.
PILGRIM: ... on the campaign trial. So, do you think they're surmountable?
GANNON: Well, there are personal animosities, I think, or there are certainly at least tensions. But these aren't paramount, and I don't think they would be controlling on the thing.
Look at precedence such as John Kennedy in 1960 -- battled Lyndon Johnson for the nomination and then turned right around and picked Johnson as his running mate, even though his brother Bobby and most of the Kennedy clan didn't want to have -- they didn't like him. There was a lot of tension there.
But Kennedy made the calculation, this can help get me elected. And that's what Bush has to do. And Reagan, in 1980, picked Bush who was his rival. So, you know, the personal aspects, they're big enough, they can get over that.
PILGRIM: All right. James Gannon, thanks very much.
GANNON: Glad to be with you.
PILGRIM: OK. That brings us to the topic of tonight's poll question: Should President Bush replace Dick Cheney as running mate? We'll ask you, yes or no. Cast your vote at cnn.com/lou, and we'll bring you the results later in the show.
Well, as I say, there's no such thing as a free lunch, but who would have imagined a lunch costing a minimum of $25,000. That's the starting bid on eBay for a power lunch with billionaire investor Warren Buffett. And the proceeds go to the Glide Foundation, one of the most comprehensive human service providers in San Francisco. Last year's auction received more than 100 bids. The winning offer of $250,000 came from a financier in New York. And so far today, one bid has been made. Bidding, by the way, in case you're going to bid, ends on July 8.
Let's take a look at some of your thoughts. And many of you wrote about the early transfer of power in Iraq. Pat Hook of Albuquerque, New Mexico, writes, "The Iraqi people will never believe the United States has returned full sovereignty of their country until every American soldier has left Iraqi soil."
Michael Childress of West Palm Beach, Florida, says, "Why should we spend billions of dollars and risk the lives of our soldiers rebuilding and guarding the borders of a country thousands of miles away when we should be applying these resources for our country where they are needed most?"
And Jim of Pickens, Mississippi, "How in the world can this administration even consider negotiating demands from North Korea, knowing the country possesses nuclear WMD capabilities? Our administration declared war on terror. The United States doesn't negotiate with terrorists, or does it?"
We love hearing from you. We'll share more of your thoughts later on in the show.
Well, a controversial decision today from the Supreme Court. The justices ruled that a law designed to protect children from online pornography goes too far and could threaten free speech. Bob Franken has the report from Washington.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BOB FRANKEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Three times the law has been shot down. Actually, in this case, sent down, again to lower courts to decide whether there is any new technology to filter out pornography and other adult material. That is preferable to censorship, Justice Anthony Kennedy wrote, since "content-based prohibitions enforced by severe criminal penalties have the constant potential to be a repressive force in the lives and thoughts of a free people." Prohibitions that might block artistic expression and useful, but explicit, health information, like an advice Web site about sex for the disabled.
ANN BEESON, ASSOC. LEGAL DIR., ACLU: The purpose of that information is to help disabled people learn about sex. And a lot of people may not want their children to see that, but the fact is adults have every right to access it.
FRANKEN: In his dissenting opinion, Justice Stephen Breyer argued that while the legislation "risks imposition of some minor burdens on some protected material, it significantly helps to achieve a compelling Congressional goal, protecting children from exposure to commercial pornography" -- precisely the sentiments of the Congressional sponsor. REP. MICHAEL OXLEY (R), OHIO: It was a balancing act, and unfortunately I think the kids lost on this one and the adult pornographers won.
FRANKEN: As cast by the court's majority, the question is less about indecent material than it is about technology. Can it filter the unacceptable and preserve the acceptable?
DOUG ISENBERG, GIGALAW.COM: There are those who think it can be very effective. But there's still certainly room for argument that any type of filtering software is both under and overinclusive.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
FRANKEN (on camera): Justice Potter Stewart said in 1964 that while he couldn't define obscenity, he knew it when he saw it. The question in 2004, Kitty, is can the new technology sort it out?
PILGRIM: Thanks very much. Bob Franken.
Here's an update now on a story we first reported in October. Prosecutors in Philadelphia tonight have indicted 12 people in connection with a massive corruption investigation involving the mayor's office.
Now, the investigation first became public when police discovered an FBI bugging device in the office of Mayor John Street in October. Prosecutors today charged a former city treasurer, a powerful Philadelphia attorney, and ten others. The indictment alleges that Attorney Ronald White paid former Treasurer Corey Kemp tens of thousands of dollars in exchange for contracts worth hundreds of thousands of dollars. Mayor Street has not been charged with any wrongdoing.
When we return, a brazen robbery in broad daylight today. We'll have an unbelievable story.
And also ahead, border patrol agents are criticized for doing their job. We'll have that report.
And a $2 billion, seven-year journey comes down to a few crucial seconds. Astrophysicist Charles Liu will tell us about one of the most ambitious missions NASA has ever attempted, all in an effort to unlock Saturn's secrets.
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PILGRIM: Some remarkable pictures tonight of a bank robbery in our nation's capital. Now, police in Washington, D.C. and the FBI are searching for three suspects who robbed the SunTrust on Connecticut Avenue. The men were armed with assault rifles. The police believe they may be responsible for several other robberies this year in the Washington area.
The green minivan the suspects used to flee the scene was found burning several blocks away. The vehicles used in several of the other robberies were also set ablaze.
In "Broken Borders" tonight, a small group of border patrol agents has stepped up its enforcement of border security in recent weeks. This month alone, the one group of agents has arrested nearly 500 illegal aliens. But instead of being applauded for a job well done, the agents are being accused of racial profiling.
Lisa Sylvester reports from Washington.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LISA SYLVESTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The U.S. Border Patrol has shied away from interior enforcement since the mid 1990s and instead has focused its search for illegal aliens along the border. But at the beginning of June, neighborhoods in Southern California were targeted by a group of 12 border agents with a mobile patrol group. Four hundred and ninety-two illegals arrested so far, but Latino groups began protesting, accusing the border agents of racial profiling.
CHRISTIAN RAMIREZ, AMERICAN FRIENDS SERVICE CMTE.: If you look brown, if you speak English with an accent, you will be questioned by the border patrol regardless of your legal status.
SYLVESTER: Members of the Hispanic Caucus on Capitol Hill also complained that the agents were overstepping their reach, doing the job of another Homeland Security agency, the Bureau of Immigration and Customs Enforcement. The raids are now under review. Border agents argue they were just doing their job enforcing the law.
T.J. BONNER, PRES., NATL. BORDER PATROL COUNCIL: They're not in this for a paycheck. They joined up for this job out of a sense of patriotism and duty and they want to enforce the immigration laws of the United States. Unfortunately their hands are tied behind their backs.
SYLVESTER: Fifty members of Congress, including the House majority leader, sent their own letter to the Department of Homeland Security urging the agency to resist outside pressure to curtail the raids.
REP. THOMAS TANCREDO (R), COLORADO: Don't do what we've done to the border patrol time and time again. They start to do their job, they become even that much, you know, aggressive to actually enforcing the law, and all of a sudden the political ramifications are such that they back away. Don't do that to them.
SYLVESTER: Morale among the border patrol agents is reportedly sinking. They're tired of a policy that tells illegal aliens that they're home free as long as they make it past the border.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SYLVESTER: The border patrol has the legal authority to conduct interior raids, but these raids were not approved in advance by Washington headquarters -- Kitty. PILGRIM: Thanks very much. Lisa Sylvester.
The Department of Homeland Security tonight has banned 12 foreign airline crew members from entering the United States. Now, the names of the 12 individuals turned up in counterterrorism databases. Nine of the 12 have connections to terrorist organizations and two were using phony passports. One had a criminal record for assaulting a U.S. law enforcement officer. The Department of Homeland Security Undersecretary Asa Hutchinson did not release the names of the crew members or their countries of origin.
Meanwhile, hundreds of Cuban-Americans rushed to board flights to Cuba before new travel restrictions are enforced. The U.S. government has extended the deadline from June 30 to July 31 for all Americans to return from Cuba but anyone hoping to reach the island one last time before those restrictions take effect must leave the United States by noon Eastern tomorrow.
We have reported extensively here on the exporting of American service jobs to cheaper foreign labor markets and tonight we're happy to report that some companies are turning to a well-trained, well- educated workforce located in small towns all across this country. Casey Wian reports from Yuma, Arizona.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): In downtown Yuma where the local hardware store used to be is another business seemingly in danger of disappearing from the American landscape. It's a call center for a public utility but at a time when many similar jobs are disappearing to India, this call center is hiring. Spherion operates call centers for big companies. It has 78 people in Yuma now, and plans to add 60 more for another client in the next two months. Workers here make about $8 an hour and as in many smaller cities, they tend to stay on the job.
ROBERT MORGAN, SPHERION: Turnover in our smaller centers is lower than in larger centers, in larger cities so we're able to provide excellent customer service for our clients, to their customers, because we have a very stable, well-trained, fairly well- educated workforce that we're able to recruit in the smaller markets.
WIAN: Two satellite television companies, Dish Network and Direct TV recently announced 1,500 new call center jobs in Oklahoma. From Yuma, Arizona, to Tulsa, Oklahoma, smaller cities have helped the call center industry this year add jobs for the first time since 1998. Businesses are finding that costs in places like this can be competitive with India. Rural and suburban areas that have lost manufacturing and high-tech jobs are now taking a page out of India's playbook and aggressively recruiting call centers with promises of low-cost labor and other financial incentives.
RICHARD FEINBERG, PURDUE UNIVERSITY: Some of these communities are learning that they're never going to get the big manufacturing plant that they've been trying to get for the last 15 years and so these call centers are so easy to do, it is something that many rural areas are beginning to understand it's achievable.
WIAN: Despite that, 86 percent of technology executives surveyed earlier this year by Diamond Cluster International expect the use of offshore call centers to increase in the next 12 months. Casey Wian, CNN, Yuma, Arizona.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: A reminder now to vote in tonight's poll. "Should President Bush replace Dick Cheney as his running mate?" Vote yes or no. Cast your vote at CNN.com/lou and we will bring you the results a little bit later in the poll.
Still ahead, we'll share some of your thoughts on exporting America. And a major milestone in the exploration of Saturn. Charles Liu is an astrophysicist at the Museum of Natural History. He'll be my guest when we return in just a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PILGRIM: As we reported last night, the Cassini spacecraft is set to enter Saturn's orbit tomorrow after a seven-year journey but the highlight of the mission is just about to begin. The Cassini will pass through Saturn's rings and orbit the planet for at least four years. Here to talk about this remarkable exploration is Charles Liu, an astrophysicist at the Museum of Natural History. Charles, it's always great to talk to you about space. This is a pretty interesting mission in that it's taken so long to get there and now we're at the critical point. What are you worried about the most?
CHARLES LIU, ASTROPHYSICIST, MUSEUM OF NATURAL HISTORY: Right now, Cassini is headed towards Saturn at close to 100,000 miles an hour. There's no way it has enough rocket power to stop itself and get into orbit so it's using Saturn as it stops so it has this very sharp loop like this and for a critical period of time, Cassini will fire its rockets for about a minute and a half and then pass through where the -- it's what we call the ring plane or basically from above the rings to below the rings, and pass very close to the planet. All this has to be executed perfectly, otherwise the entire mission could be lost.
PILGRIM: You make it sound like a racing car. Also, the rings of Saturn, everyone knows from their Earth science class, way, way back, is made of particles and not such small particles. Is that a hazard?
LIU: It certainly is. Anything from about pea size to house or boulder size, or the sizes of the particles that make up the rings, they're not solid at all. And there are gaps. There are places -- and NASA scientists are sending this Cassini mission right through what we think is a safe spot. But you never know. Because these things are loose and they're flying around.
PILGRIM: If it gets hit...
LIU: Adios muchachos (ph). We're done. PILGRIM: That's it. $3.3 billion, seven years. Like, longer to plan it...
LIU: Well, people have worked very hard to make sure that it's as safe as possible. I feel very confident that it will be very successful.
And what a wonderful mission it's going to be, 20 years since its conception, seven years in flight, and it has a dozen instruments on there that will look at Saturn and its system with more detail than ever. This could be a real turning point in science.
PILGRIM: I'm reading your notes. I don't know this offhand but one of the moons, Titan, the biggest one, that has analogy to Earth?
LIU: There's a special significance to Titan. It's about 3,000 miles across. It's actually somewhere in between the size of our moon and the Earth. And it has a very thick atmosphere. So even though it's far out from the sun, nearly 1 billion miles, it may actually be warm enough on the surface to have lakes and rivers, not of water, but of other chemicals. And if the situation is just right, some scientists think that there may be organic activity down there, in other words, the first molecules that are forming things like proteins and DNA that may lead to life as we know it.
PILGRIM: I'm going to ask you an unfair question. We've talked a lot about Mars, and now we're talking about Saturn. Which is your favorite?
LIU: I think of the solar system as a system. Every single spot is important. And Saturn can tell us all kinds of things that Mars can't, and Mars a lot of what Saturn can't. It's a very exciting time. And beyond these four years that are coming up, there may be an extended mission. If we discover things, we may find the origins of life as we know it. It's a very exciting time.
PILGRIM: You make me so excited about space every time I talk to you. And I hope it goes well tomorrow. Tomorrow, a very critical day.
LIU: Absolutely, the closest approach to the planet.
PILGRIM: OK. Thanks very much. Charles Liu.
LIU: Always a pleasure.
PILGRIM: Tonight's thought is on space exploration, and here it is: "The most incomprehensible thing about the universe is that it's comprehensible." And those are the words of Albert Einstein.
Still ahead, some of your thoughts on "Exporting America." Plus, consumer confidence is rising, but two-thirds of the country's biggest retailers have yet to feel the effects. That and more still ahead here tonight.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PILGRIM: Stocks rose on Wall Street: the Dow gained 56 points; the NASDAQ rose 15; the S&P added almost three.
And encouraging news tonight on the economy, but not everyone is enjoying it. Christine Romans is here with the report -- Christine?
CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That's right, Kitty. You have crude oil prices at a two-month low. Gas prices also falling. And that's probably why consumer confidence is at a two-year high.
But at the same time, the discount retailers warn their sales are slowing. Wal-Mart shares, for example, are in a 10-day funk where they've lost 8 percent. Kitty, this is the longest Wal-Mart losing streak in at least 24 years. I've gone back to 1980. It's also got a sexual discrimination case class-action lawsuit that's part of this, but slowing sales is a problem.
And Target today also says consumers are spending less on shoes and electronics. Consumers are struggling with stagnant real wages, and interest rates on credit card debt and variable rate loans are soon about to go up.
And says Tom McManus of Banc of America, "Beware of the politicians posing as economists who tell you this is the strongest economy in 20 years." He says the long-term trend in jobs growth is 2.2% a year. Even this burst of jobs growth over the past nine months is only 1.5%. He says, "The consumer can feel it."
And Kitty, the investor can feel it, too. The first half of this year is almost over, and stocks are essentially flat. June shaping up to be the most quiet month of the year on the New York Stock Exchange.
PILGRIM: One can only hope it picks up this summer.
ROMANS: Sure.
PILGRIM: Thanks very much. Christine Romans.
Let's take a look at some of your thoughts on "Exporting America." Ken Frank of Oceanport, New Jersey, says, "Unless the politicians and business leaders understand the destructiveness of these acts to our economy, they will keep acting for their short-term self-interest at the expense of our economy, our job base, and our social structures."
And Dave Cromwell of Datil, New Mexico, says, "Lou is conservative and I am liberal, yet outsourcing, broken borders, and corporate bad guys are three issues we agree upon completely.
Send us your e-mails to loudobbs@cnn.com.
Still ahead, the results of tonight's poll. First, a reminder to check our Web site for the complete list of companies who have confirmed to be "Exporting America." Check it at cnn.com/lou.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PILGRIM: Now the results of tonight's poll: 62 percent of you believe President Bush should replace Dick Cheney as his running mate; 38 percent do not.
Thanks for joining us tonight. Please join us tomorrow: Former Oklahoma Congressman Dave McCurdy has just returned from China, and he says the Chinese are exploiting American intellectual capital. He'll be our guest. And in "Face Off," was the United States' mission in Iraq a success? We'll have a debate.
For all of us here, good night from New York. "ANDERSON COOPER 360" is next.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired June 29, 2004 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
KITTY PILGRIM, GUEST HOST: Tonight, a deadly insurgent attack on American troops in Iraq. One day after the handover of power, three U.S. Marines are killed.
Former secretary of state Madeleine Albright says Iraq has become a magnet for international terrorists. Madeleine Albright is my guest tonight.
Controversy at the Supreme Court. The justices ruled that a law to protect children from online pornography could threaten free speech.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Unfortunately, I think the kids lost on this one and the adult pornographers won.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PILGRIM: Also tonight, protests in Southern California as the U.S. Border Patrol rounds up illegal aliens in Los Angeles and San Diego.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If you look brown, if you speak English with an accent, you will be questioned by the Border Patrol.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And liftoff of...
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PILGRIM: And the most expensive unmanned space flight ever approaches Saturn. A seven-year journey across more than two billion miles in space. I will be joined by astrophysicist Charles Liu.
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT for Tuesday, June 29. Here now for an hour of news, debate and opinion, sitting in for Lou Dobbs, Kitty Pilgrim.
PILGRIM: Good evening. One day after the United States handed over power to the Iraqis, insurgents killed three U.S. Marines. Two other Marines were wounded. The insurgents ambushed the Marines' convoy in Baghdad. A roadside bomb destroyed a humvee escorting trucks.
Meanwhile, the new Iraqi government declared it will take legal custody of Saddam Hussein tomorrow.
Brent Sadler reports from Baghdad.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BRENT SADLER, CNN BEIRUT BUREAU CHIEF (voice-over): The status of Iraq's once untouchable ruler is about to change. Saddam Hussein will be transferred from American to Iraqi legal custody to face charges in an open court this week, though he'll remain under U.S. lock and key. It won't be the start of a full trial for alleged war crimes, including genocide, but the first step.
Iraqi authorities here say arrest warrants were issued for the ex-president and 11 of his top officials, including one of the most well-known faces from the old regime, former deputy prime minister Tariq Aziz.
IYAD ALLAWI, IRAQI INTERIM PRIME MINISTER (through translator): The judicial process may take some time. Justice will be done, however, and the progress of these cases will be done for all to see.
SADLER: But even as the newly empowered government finds its feet, U.S. forces came under renewed attack in Baghdad. Iraqi security forces also came under attack. Police stations were hit by rocket and machine-gun fire, inflicting light casualties.
The oil infrastructure was also targeted again, this time south of Baghdad where saboteurs blew up a pipeline, aiming to disrupt exports of crude oil. In response, Iraqi authorities are set to impose tough new security measures to crack down on the militants.
BARHAM SALEH, INTERIM DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER: It will involve giving the government the ability to, for example, impose curfews and put in place the legal mechanisms by which dangerous people could be detained. But we have to do all these things mindful of our moral and legal obligations towards human rights.
SADLER: On the diplomatic front, the United States has restored relations with Iraq, broken after the 1990 invasion of Kuwait. The new U.S. ambassador, John Negroponte, has been sent to hold the fort in the so-called green zone, home of the old occupation authority and the target of recent rocket attacks and car bombs.
(on camera): The interim government is expected to have a limited life of just seven months until elections. But, in the meantime, the leadership will try to prove its mettle by taking action to confront the insurgents with its newfound power.
Brent Sadler, CNN, Baghdad. (END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: New developments tonight in the story of a Marine corporal missing in Iraq. The Marine was last seen 10 days ago. Insurgents are saying they're holding him prisoner.
Pentagon Correspondent Barbara Starr reports -- Barbara.
BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Kitty, hello to you.
The Pentagon has not yet made an official announcement, but sources telling the news media, yes, that Corporal Wassef Hassoun is being reclassified now as captured, several days after he was seen on a videotape blindfolded and with a sword held to his head.
Again today, a family member, this time his brother, made an appeal for his life.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SAMI HASSOUN, BROTHER OF CAPTURED MARINE: I would like to call on all the ambassadors in the whole countries around the world, especially around Iraq, to help us. Please help us in our case with our brother.
He's with the Marines. He was doing his job. We never hurt nobody in our whole life. He's a very innocent person. He was just doing his job like everybody else.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
STARR: Now the Marine Corps is preparing to issue a statement tonight that says, "While his absence initially prompted investigators to believe he was missing, the video shown on international television depicted the Marine being held against his will by masked captors."
What is so mysterious in this case is the working theory, is the corporal initially left his camp sometime around June 19 or June 20 of his own free will, an unauthorized absence, however. The belief was he was having some problems and possibly trying to make his way to family members in Lebanon from his duty station in Iraq.
But the next time he was seen was on that videotape blindfolded and being held by insurgents. No one knows how he fell into the hands of the insurgents, and the entire matter still remains under investigation. While they search for him, this is all a working theory at the moment, all of it still under investigation -- Kitty.
PILGRIM: All right. Thanks very much.
Barbara Starr.
President Bush today said freedom is the future of the Middle East. The president said Turkey is an example of how democracy can flourish in the Muslim world.
John King is traveling with the president and reports tonight from Istanbul, Turkey.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JOHN KING, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): In the shadow of an Istanbul mosque, the president optimistically cast the political transition in Iraq as just the beginning.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I believe that freedom is the future of the Middle East because I believe that freedom is the future of all humanity.
KING: Iraq's new government assumed power just a day ago, yet Mr. Bush said already it stands in stark contrast to oppressive regimes in Iran and Syria.
BUSH: The rise of Iraqi democracy is bringing hope to reformers across the Middle East and sending a very different message to Tehran and Damascus.
KING: The backdrop was part of the message as the president held out Turkey as an example for those who questioned whether predominantly Muslim nations are suited for democracy.
And as he held out political reform as the antidote to the hatred that fuels terrorism, the president chastised his own country as among those that, when it came to the Middle East, for too long put security and oil ahead of human rights.
BUSH: It has not made Western nations more secure to ignore the cycle of dictatorship and extremism.
KING: At the NATO summit, Mr. Bush won a modest commitment to help train new Iraqi security forces and, in his speech before heading home, cast the transfer of sovereignty as the opening of a new chapter after months of setbacks.
BUSH: The world has seen a great event in the history of Iraq, in the history of the Middle East and in the history of liberty.
KING: The president is not scheduled to travel overseas again until after the November election, and his optimistic outlook on Iraq is very much aimed at shaping the political climate back home.
(on camera): Yet this new beginning the president speaks of is also for him a new period of political risk. Mr. Bush now has considerably less say over how Iraq is governed, yet still has nearly 140,000 troops there in the line of fire.
John King, CNN, Istanbul.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: During his speech today, President Bush ignored criticism from French president Jacques Chirac, and again asked the European Union to admit Turkey. Now President Bush said Turkey, as a European power, belongs in the European Union. Yesterday, President Chirac said President Bush has no right to tell Europe how to manage its relations with Turkey.
Well, as John King just reported, NATO leaders agreed to help train Iraqi security forces and send a small number of additional troops to Afghanistan. Officials say the agreement shows that NATO has transformed itself from a Cold War Defense Alliance, but critics say NATO is rapidly losing its relevance in a world facing new types of threats.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: (voice-over): French president Jacques Chirac came out strongly out against NATO troops being in Iraq. France is a prominent member of NATO.
JACQUES CHIRAC, FRENCH PRESIDENT (through interpreter): There was no question about the presence of NATO troops or NATO of any other form in Iraq. That being said, on a personal note, I would be entirely hostile to any presence of NATO in Iraq.
PILGRIM: NATO has agreed to train Iraqi troops, but some say that's not sufficient.
LAWRENCE KAPLAN, HUDSON INSTITUTE: Essentially, NATO has offered to train Iraqi soldiers and Iraqi police, but, of course, they've refused to provide more troops for Iraq, and what Iraq really needs right now is security. It does not need a symbolic gesture.
PILGRIM: NATO forces were used in the conflicts in Bosnia and Kosovo. Some 60,000 troops from nearly 30 countries, including NATO members, in Bosnia, and 55,000 troops from NATO countries and others in Kosovo.
CLIFF KUPCHAN, NIXON CENTER: They perceived those crises to be on than front doorstep. They were scared of refugees, they were scared of regional instability. They don't see that in Iraq.
PILGRIM: For that reason, some question whether the difference of viewpoint can be resolved.
IVO DAALDER, BROOKINGS INSTITUTION: The truth here is that the alliance is coming to a turning point. Either we find a way to jointly do the fundamental security challenges that we face today or we won't, and, if we won't, then there is going to be a real question about what the value of that alliance really is.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: Now this transatlantic rift may prove to be politics as usual, but some worry it's the Iraqi people who will pay the highest price for NATO's failure to come together.
Well, the Army is preparing to call up as many as 6,500 Reserve soldiers from the rarely tapped individual ready reserve.\ The military says the troops have critical skills needed in Afghanistan and Iraq. It's the first time the Pentagon has called up significant numbers of troops from the individual ready reserve since the Gulf War in 1991.
The United States today said it expelled two Iranians for spying. FBI agents saw the Iranians taking pictures of New York City landmarks and transportation systems. The State Department has long accused Iran of being a state sponsor of international terrorism. Richard Roth reports from the United Nations.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
RICHARD ROTH, CNN U.N. CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The two Iranians were security guards here at Iran's mission to the United Nations. They were accused by the U.S. of conduct inconsistent with their jobs.
STUART HOLLIDAY, DEPUTY U.S. AMBASSADOR TO U.N.: These individuals were moving around New York City and essentially surveilling, taking photographs of a variety of New York landmarks and infrastructure and the rest.
ROTH: Officials say the duo were seen photographing transportation systems, such as subways and buses. They say photos of other sensitive sites were also snapped, including tunnels. But officials would not disclose which particular landmarks might have been filmed.
This is the third pair of Iranian security guards to be required to leave by the U.S. in the last two years. Last November, at this Queens, New York, subway station, a New York City transit officer detained two Iranians who the police commissioner later described as agents engaged in reconnaissance of the subway.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We had also made it clear that this kind of activity was unacceptable, and yet it continued in this latest case, so we were really left -- this was the option that we were left with.
ROTH: The government of Iran sharply disagrees. A spokesman for the Iranian mission said the photos they shot were consistent with obvious and popular tourist attractions in New York City.
The statement says millions of visitors come to New York with cameras and that it is very unfortunate that regular sightseeing and shooting photos by two guards at this mission on a holiday became so contentious and controversial.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ROTH: There are five guards at any time at the Iranian mission, but they only stay for four or five months. So it's not clear whether they were, indeed, trying to be tourists here in New York City.
There's no U.S. law against taking photos in these public places, but, at the same time, New York is trying to ban people from taking photos, no matter who they are, in the subways and buses due to the fear of terrorism -- Kitty.
PILGRIM: All right. Thanks very much. Richard Roth.
Still ahead, former secretary of state Madeleine Albright says Iraq has become a magnet for international terrorists. Madeleine Albright will join me next.
Vice President Dick Cheney has been criticized over the war in Iraq and his ties with the oil industry. Veteran political journalist James Gannon says President Bush needs a new running mate. James Gannon is my guest.
And in Broken Borders, federal agents have arrested hundreds of illegal aliens in Southern California this month, and now those agents stand accused of racial profiling. We'll have a special report.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PILGRIM: My first guest says Iraq has become a magnet and a gathering ground for international terrorists. Today, insurgents killed U.S. Marines in Baghdad and launched a series of attacks on Iraqi police. Now the Marines were the first American fatalities since the United States handed over power to the Iraqis yesterday.
Joining me now is former secretary of state Madeleine Albright.
And thank you very much for joining us this evening.
MADELEINE ALBRIGHT, FORMER SECRETARY OF STATE: Good to be with you, Kitty.
PILGRIM: Secretary Albright, how confident are you that Prime Minister Allawi and his colleagues will be able to maintain peace going forward?
ALBRIGHT: Well, they have a very hard job ahead of them, and I'm glad that they are, in fact, in charge. But they're going to need a lot of work and help, especially on the security issue, because there has to be reconstruction, and we have to get help -- they have to get ready for elections.
But the security issue continues to be the main one. And the question is how much help they will get in that. Our forces are obviously remaining there. But we also have to make sure that more Iraqis are trained in order to deal with the security issue themselves.
The Iraqi army is not able to defense the country against insurgents at this point. We have about 140,000 troops there. How long do you expect that they should remain?
ALBRIGHT: I think that's very hard to say. I think -- we know that there will not be really a permanent Iraqi government in place until the end of next year, and I don't think we can just kind of leave because we -- this is a situation that is now chaotic, that I think is attracting a lot of outside fighter. And then we have the whole problem of the insurgency in Iraq. And the real question, Kitty, is whether the Iraqis that are being trained will be willing to fight Iraqis. That is one of the hardest parts and one of the unanswered questions.
PILGRIM: Very difficult. We just mentioned the role of NATO and did a bit of analysis on that. You were very active with the Bosnia and Kosovo situations. What do you see as the role of NATO going forward in Iraq?
ALBRIGHT: Well, I am a great believer in NATO, but it has to be relevant to what is going on, and it does require a great deal of work by the United States to get the allies to go along and to have them understand where their national interest is engaged. And I agree that NATO, in order to be relevant, is going to have to participate in some way in these out-of-area activities.
Now, in Iraq, they had said they were going to help the trainers. I also think that they could have been useful in terms of helping to seal borders and working when it will be necessary to surge for the elections. But I've also heard that they are not -- the French have blocked some activity by NATO in Afghanistan.
So there clearly are problems inside NATO, and they have to be managed. We did -- we were able to do that, both in Bosnia and Kosovo. But I know it takes a lot of diplomatic work.
PILGRIM: President Bush has said that democracy in Iraq is a starting point for Middle East peace. How do you feel about that, and do you think a democratized Iraq is a very good start for the Middle East peace process?
ALBRIGHT: Well, I think the Middle East peace process -- it's really being done backwards. The road to Jerusalem is not through Baghdad, and I think that not enough attention has been paid to the Middle East peace process in the last three years.
I've kind of said that the road map was never taken out of the glove compartment, and it requires a lot of work. I hope very much for a democratized Iraq. I ultimately believe that everybody wants to be able to make decisions about the way his or her government is run. But, as far as the Middle East peace process is concerned, this is backwards.
PILGRIM: Let me talk about something else Bush mentioned today. President Bush mentioned that Turkey would serve as a very nice role model for the rest of the world in terms of a Muslim country being integrated into the European Union. What do you think about those comments and the role of Turkey as a role model?
ALBRIGHT: Well, I think Turkey is very important, and it is a secular Muslim country. It is not an Arab country, however. And having just been in Turkey myself, they don't like to be talked about as a role model. They can see themselves as maybe setting some kind of an example. But, clearly, it is possible to have a secular Muslim republic, and I think that there -- it would be important to have a secular approach to this. But the most important thing is Turkey is a bridge, a very important country, and I hope very much that the EU understands the importance of Turkey's membership.
PILGRIM: Secretary Albright, we spend a good part of our broadcast every night talking about terrorism, and you have been quoted as saying there's a real question whether America is safer today as a result of the Iraq war. Do you see the terrorism connection and the Iraq war as something that's perhaps delinked at this point?
ALBRIGHT: Well, I never did see a connection between Saddam Hussein, al Qaeda and 9/11, and I think it was unfortunate that that linkage was told to the American people, and I do hope very much that we can continue to figure out how to deal with the threat of terrorism.
But it is not something that is directly connected to 9/11, and I think my own question for myself is I don't feel particularly safer. I think homeland security -- in many ways, there are very many aspects that work, but there are a lot of holes, and we have to continue to deal with the worldwide threat of terrorism.
And, in that, we need the help of Muslim countries. We cannot do this by ourselves, and we need our allies, and we need the moderate Muslim countries to help us.
PILGRIM: All right. Thank you very much.
Former secretary of state Madeleine Albright.
Thank you.
ALBRIGHT: Thank you, Kitty.
PILGRIM: When we return, a new low for President Bush's approval ratings. We'll have the latest from the campaign trail.
Plus, veteran journalist James Gannon will tell us why he believes President Bush needs a new running mate.
Also ahead, the Supreme Court decides whether a law designed to protect children from Internet pornography also violates free speech. We'll have a special report on that.
And then, a call center in this country that's hiring, not firing American workers. That and much more still ahead still tonight.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ANNOUNCER: LOU DOBBS TONIGHT continues. Sitting in for Lou Dobbs, Kitty Pilgrim.
PILGRIM: In tonight's Campaign Journal, Senator John Kerry today focused on education. In Chicago, Senator Kerry promoted his education policies at the Annual Rainbow/PUSH Coalition and Citizen Education Fund Conference. Senator Kerry also spoke about American jobs going to cheap foreign labor markets, and he said he has a plan to keep the good-paying jobs in the United States.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. JOHN KERRY (D-MA), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: When I am president, no American taxpayer will ever again subsidize the loss of their own job. We're going to stop that. It's absurd.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PILGRIM: And the latest "New York Times"/CBS poll shows 45 percent of registered voters nationwide still support Senator Kerry. President Bush is not far behind with 44 percent. But when Ralph Nader is included, he draws 5 percent, and that leaves President Bush on top with 43 percent and Kerry with 42 percent.
Now the latest polls also show President Bush's approval rating has fallen to its lowest level during his presidency. Only 42 percent of those polled approve of how President Bush is handling the job.
My next guest calls himself a longtime admirer of Vice President Dick Cheney, but he says Mr. Cheney should step aside in this election for the good of President Bush and the Republican Party.
Now veteran journalist James Gannon wrote an open letter to the vice president in "USA Today," and in it, he says, "Nobody knows better than you do that you have become a lightning rod for criticism, fair or not. It is simply too easy to paint Dick Cheney as a tool of the oil industry and a too-eager advocate of the war in Iraq." That's a quote.
James Gannon is the former editor of "The Des Moines Register." He joins us tonight from Charlottesville, Virginia.
And thanks very much for joining us.
JAMES GANNON, FORMER NEWSPAPER EDITOR: Glad to be with you.
PILGRIM: What is your biggest concern about the vice president?
GANNON: Well, my biggest concern is that the vice president has become such a target for Democrats and a very easy target. So many things that he can be criticized for, fairly or unfairly.
As you said, I'm -- I don't have any personal animosity toward the vice president. In fact, I've always rather thought he was a very able, competent public servant. And he's been very loyal to President Bush, and we all appreciate that.
But he has become a target of the Democrats on many of these counts: the Halliburton ties, the fact that he was very strong advocate of the war in Iraq and a strong advocate of the idea that there were weapons of mass destruction. So much of this turned out to be wrong, and now he -- I see him as a political liability.
And what has surprised me is that there really has been very little discussion of this, and I think there ought to be some discussion about whether he actually helps Bush get reelected or hurts him, and I believe he's probably going to hurt him.
PILGRIM: Has the vice president responded to your open letter, Jim?
GANNON: I have heard nothing from anyone in the Cheney camp, no.
PILGRIM: I have to ask you: Did you expect a response?
GANNON: No, I didn't really expect a response. I mean, how could they respond? I wrote the piece mainly because I was surprised that no one has really raised the question. It seems to be the unmentionable subject, and everyone assumes that Cheney will be the vice president, and he probably will be. The chances are slim that any change would be made.
But if you look at the thing subjectively and the fact that he may, in fact hurt the president -- and this latest incident on the Senate floor doesn't help at all -- then, you know, you have to raise the question: If Bush really wants to get reelected, would he be better off with another new running mate?
PILGRIM: Do you think this incident, the swearing incident on the Senate floor is trivial, or do you think it's substantive?
GANNON: I don't think it's important as an issue, and I think that kind of language probably goes on frequently among politicians privately. But the fact that he uttered it on the Senate floor and that it was heard and then the fact that he basically sort of defended it and said I feel better about saying it, there's something about that that bothers a lot of people, and it sort of reinforces the idea that Cheney is this arrogant guy who thinks he's always right, and I think that's an image that hurts him and by implication hurts the president on the ticket.
PILGRIM: You don't write a letter like this without having an idea of what you think a winning ticket would look like. What do you think?
GANNON: Well, I think there are a lot of possibilities for a ticket that would have a better chance to win at least. The first rule in picking vice presidents or keeping vice presidents is first do no harm, and, if a running mate appears to be doing some harm or being a liability, then you have to think about a change.
A couple of presidents during wartime have already done this. FDR, Franklin Roosevelt, during the second world war, dumped his vice president, Henry Wallace, and picked Harry Truman, who soon became president. And during the Civil War, Lincoln made a change in vice presidents. So, it wouldn't be unprecedented.
And I think that there are many possibilities. I mentioned Senator McCain. John Kerry thought McCain would made a good running mate for him. Well, he'd make an even better running mate for Bush because he's a strong conservative. He's a Republican. He backs the war. He's more in line, in fact, with Bush on social issues than he would be with Kerry. So, if it was a good idea for Kerry, it's an even better idea for Bush.
PILGRIM: John McCain said he doesn't want to be vice president. Do you think he's -- he can change his mind?
GANNON: Anyone who's asked has to say, "I don't want to be vice president," until the candidate or the president asks him, "Do you want to be vice president?" And then you can have a different answer.
I don't have any doubt that Senator McCain would be happy to be on the ticket as a vice president, because it would position him, if he wants, to run for president -- if they won, that is. If they won in 2004, he could be -- have a leg up on the nomination in 2008.
PILGRIM: There have been some tensions between McCain and Bush. Although he came to his side just recently...
GANNON: Right.
PILGRIM: ... on the campaign trial. So, do you think they're surmountable?
GANNON: Well, there are personal animosities, I think, or there are certainly at least tensions. But these aren't paramount, and I don't think they would be controlling on the thing.
Look at precedence such as John Kennedy in 1960 -- battled Lyndon Johnson for the nomination and then turned right around and picked Johnson as his running mate, even though his brother Bobby and most of the Kennedy clan didn't want to have -- they didn't like him. There was a lot of tension there.
But Kennedy made the calculation, this can help get me elected. And that's what Bush has to do. And Reagan, in 1980, picked Bush who was his rival. So, you know, the personal aspects, they're big enough, they can get over that.
PILGRIM: All right. James Gannon, thanks very much.
GANNON: Glad to be with you.
PILGRIM: OK. That brings us to the topic of tonight's poll question: Should President Bush replace Dick Cheney as running mate? We'll ask you, yes or no. Cast your vote at cnn.com/lou, and we'll bring you the results later in the show.
Well, as I say, there's no such thing as a free lunch, but who would have imagined a lunch costing a minimum of $25,000. That's the starting bid on eBay for a power lunch with billionaire investor Warren Buffett. And the proceeds go to the Glide Foundation, one of the most comprehensive human service providers in San Francisco. Last year's auction received more than 100 bids. The winning offer of $250,000 came from a financier in New York. And so far today, one bid has been made. Bidding, by the way, in case you're going to bid, ends on July 8.
Let's take a look at some of your thoughts. And many of you wrote about the early transfer of power in Iraq. Pat Hook of Albuquerque, New Mexico, writes, "The Iraqi people will never believe the United States has returned full sovereignty of their country until every American soldier has left Iraqi soil."
Michael Childress of West Palm Beach, Florida, says, "Why should we spend billions of dollars and risk the lives of our soldiers rebuilding and guarding the borders of a country thousands of miles away when we should be applying these resources for our country where they are needed most?"
And Jim of Pickens, Mississippi, "How in the world can this administration even consider negotiating demands from North Korea, knowing the country possesses nuclear WMD capabilities? Our administration declared war on terror. The United States doesn't negotiate with terrorists, or does it?"
We love hearing from you. We'll share more of your thoughts later on in the show.
Well, a controversial decision today from the Supreme Court. The justices ruled that a law designed to protect children from online pornography goes too far and could threaten free speech. Bob Franken has the report from Washington.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BOB FRANKEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Three times the law has been shot down. Actually, in this case, sent down, again to lower courts to decide whether there is any new technology to filter out pornography and other adult material. That is preferable to censorship, Justice Anthony Kennedy wrote, since "content-based prohibitions enforced by severe criminal penalties have the constant potential to be a repressive force in the lives and thoughts of a free people." Prohibitions that might block artistic expression and useful, but explicit, health information, like an advice Web site about sex for the disabled.
ANN BEESON, ASSOC. LEGAL DIR., ACLU: The purpose of that information is to help disabled people learn about sex. And a lot of people may not want their children to see that, but the fact is adults have every right to access it.
FRANKEN: In his dissenting opinion, Justice Stephen Breyer argued that while the legislation "risks imposition of some minor burdens on some protected material, it significantly helps to achieve a compelling Congressional goal, protecting children from exposure to commercial pornography" -- precisely the sentiments of the Congressional sponsor. REP. MICHAEL OXLEY (R), OHIO: It was a balancing act, and unfortunately I think the kids lost on this one and the adult pornographers won.
FRANKEN: As cast by the court's majority, the question is less about indecent material than it is about technology. Can it filter the unacceptable and preserve the acceptable?
DOUG ISENBERG, GIGALAW.COM: There are those who think it can be very effective. But there's still certainly room for argument that any type of filtering software is both under and overinclusive.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
FRANKEN (on camera): Justice Potter Stewart said in 1964 that while he couldn't define obscenity, he knew it when he saw it. The question in 2004, Kitty, is can the new technology sort it out?
PILGRIM: Thanks very much. Bob Franken.
Here's an update now on a story we first reported in October. Prosecutors in Philadelphia tonight have indicted 12 people in connection with a massive corruption investigation involving the mayor's office.
Now, the investigation first became public when police discovered an FBI bugging device in the office of Mayor John Street in October. Prosecutors today charged a former city treasurer, a powerful Philadelphia attorney, and ten others. The indictment alleges that Attorney Ronald White paid former Treasurer Corey Kemp tens of thousands of dollars in exchange for contracts worth hundreds of thousands of dollars. Mayor Street has not been charged with any wrongdoing.
When we return, a brazen robbery in broad daylight today. We'll have an unbelievable story.
And also ahead, border patrol agents are criticized for doing their job. We'll have that report.
And a $2 billion, seven-year journey comes down to a few crucial seconds. Astrophysicist Charles Liu will tell us about one of the most ambitious missions NASA has ever attempted, all in an effort to unlock Saturn's secrets.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PILGRIM: Some remarkable pictures tonight of a bank robbery in our nation's capital. Now, police in Washington, D.C. and the FBI are searching for three suspects who robbed the SunTrust on Connecticut Avenue. The men were armed with assault rifles. The police believe they may be responsible for several other robberies this year in the Washington area.
The green minivan the suspects used to flee the scene was found burning several blocks away. The vehicles used in several of the other robberies were also set ablaze.
In "Broken Borders" tonight, a small group of border patrol agents has stepped up its enforcement of border security in recent weeks. This month alone, the one group of agents has arrested nearly 500 illegal aliens. But instead of being applauded for a job well done, the agents are being accused of racial profiling.
Lisa Sylvester reports from Washington.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LISA SYLVESTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The U.S. Border Patrol has shied away from interior enforcement since the mid 1990s and instead has focused its search for illegal aliens along the border. But at the beginning of June, neighborhoods in Southern California were targeted by a group of 12 border agents with a mobile patrol group. Four hundred and ninety-two illegals arrested so far, but Latino groups began protesting, accusing the border agents of racial profiling.
CHRISTIAN RAMIREZ, AMERICAN FRIENDS SERVICE CMTE.: If you look brown, if you speak English with an accent, you will be questioned by the border patrol regardless of your legal status.
SYLVESTER: Members of the Hispanic Caucus on Capitol Hill also complained that the agents were overstepping their reach, doing the job of another Homeland Security agency, the Bureau of Immigration and Customs Enforcement. The raids are now under review. Border agents argue they were just doing their job enforcing the law.
T.J. BONNER, PRES., NATL. BORDER PATROL COUNCIL: They're not in this for a paycheck. They joined up for this job out of a sense of patriotism and duty and they want to enforce the immigration laws of the United States. Unfortunately their hands are tied behind their backs.
SYLVESTER: Fifty members of Congress, including the House majority leader, sent their own letter to the Department of Homeland Security urging the agency to resist outside pressure to curtail the raids.
REP. THOMAS TANCREDO (R), COLORADO: Don't do what we've done to the border patrol time and time again. They start to do their job, they become even that much, you know, aggressive to actually enforcing the law, and all of a sudden the political ramifications are such that they back away. Don't do that to them.
SYLVESTER: Morale among the border patrol agents is reportedly sinking. They're tired of a policy that tells illegal aliens that they're home free as long as they make it past the border.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SYLVESTER: The border patrol has the legal authority to conduct interior raids, but these raids were not approved in advance by Washington headquarters -- Kitty. PILGRIM: Thanks very much. Lisa Sylvester.
The Department of Homeland Security tonight has banned 12 foreign airline crew members from entering the United States. Now, the names of the 12 individuals turned up in counterterrorism databases. Nine of the 12 have connections to terrorist organizations and two were using phony passports. One had a criminal record for assaulting a U.S. law enforcement officer. The Department of Homeland Security Undersecretary Asa Hutchinson did not release the names of the crew members or their countries of origin.
Meanwhile, hundreds of Cuban-Americans rushed to board flights to Cuba before new travel restrictions are enforced. The U.S. government has extended the deadline from June 30 to July 31 for all Americans to return from Cuba but anyone hoping to reach the island one last time before those restrictions take effect must leave the United States by noon Eastern tomorrow.
We have reported extensively here on the exporting of American service jobs to cheaper foreign labor markets and tonight we're happy to report that some companies are turning to a well-trained, well- educated workforce located in small towns all across this country. Casey Wian reports from Yuma, Arizona.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): In downtown Yuma where the local hardware store used to be is another business seemingly in danger of disappearing from the American landscape. It's a call center for a public utility but at a time when many similar jobs are disappearing to India, this call center is hiring. Spherion operates call centers for big companies. It has 78 people in Yuma now, and plans to add 60 more for another client in the next two months. Workers here make about $8 an hour and as in many smaller cities, they tend to stay on the job.
ROBERT MORGAN, SPHERION: Turnover in our smaller centers is lower than in larger centers, in larger cities so we're able to provide excellent customer service for our clients, to their customers, because we have a very stable, well-trained, fairly well- educated workforce that we're able to recruit in the smaller markets.
WIAN: Two satellite television companies, Dish Network and Direct TV recently announced 1,500 new call center jobs in Oklahoma. From Yuma, Arizona, to Tulsa, Oklahoma, smaller cities have helped the call center industry this year add jobs for the first time since 1998. Businesses are finding that costs in places like this can be competitive with India. Rural and suburban areas that have lost manufacturing and high-tech jobs are now taking a page out of India's playbook and aggressively recruiting call centers with promises of low-cost labor and other financial incentives.
RICHARD FEINBERG, PURDUE UNIVERSITY: Some of these communities are learning that they're never going to get the big manufacturing plant that they've been trying to get for the last 15 years and so these call centers are so easy to do, it is something that many rural areas are beginning to understand it's achievable.
WIAN: Despite that, 86 percent of technology executives surveyed earlier this year by Diamond Cluster International expect the use of offshore call centers to increase in the next 12 months. Casey Wian, CNN, Yuma, Arizona.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: A reminder now to vote in tonight's poll. "Should President Bush replace Dick Cheney as his running mate?" Vote yes or no. Cast your vote at CNN.com/lou and we will bring you the results a little bit later in the poll.
Still ahead, we'll share some of your thoughts on exporting America. And a major milestone in the exploration of Saturn. Charles Liu is an astrophysicist at the Museum of Natural History. He'll be my guest when we return in just a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PILGRIM: As we reported last night, the Cassini spacecraft is set to enter Saturn's orbit tomorrow after a seven-year journey but the highlight of the mission is just about to begin. The Cassini will pass through Saturn's rings and orbit the planet for at least four years. Here to talk about this remarkable exploration is Charles Liu, an astrophysicist at the Museum of Natural History. Charles, it's always great to talk to you about space. This is a pretty interesting mission in that it's taken so long to get there and now we're at the critical point. What are you worried about the most?
CHARLES LIU, ASTROPHYSICIST, MUSEUM OF NATURAL HISTORY: Right now, Cassini is headed towards Saturn at close to 100,000 miles an hour. There's no way it has enough rocket power to stop itself and get into orbit so it's using Saturn as it stops so it has this very sharp loop like this and for a critical period of time, Cassini will fire its rockets for about a minute and a half and then pass through where the -- it's what we call the ring plane or basically from above the rings to below the rings, and pass very close to the planet. All this has to be executed perfectly, otherwise the entire mission could be lost.
PILGRIM: You make it sound like a racing car. Also, the rings of Saturn, everyone knows from their Earth science class, way, way back, is made of particles and not such small particles. Is that a hazard?
LIU: It certainly is. Anything from about pea size to house or boulder size, or the sizes of the particles that make up the rings, they're not solid at all. And there are gaps. There are places -- and NASA scientists are sending this Cassini mission right through what we think is a safe spot. But you never know. Because these things are loose and they're flying around.
PILGRIM: If it gets hit...
LIU: Adios muchachos (ph). We're done. PILGRIM: That's it. $3.3 billion, seven years. Like, longer to plan it...
LIU: Well, people have worked very hard to make sure that it's as safe as possible. I feel very confident that it will be very successful.
And what a wonderful mission it's going to be, 20 years since its conception, seven years in flight, and it has a dozen instruments on there that will look at Saturn and its system with more detail than ever. This could be a real turning point in science.
PILGRIM: I'm reading your notes. I don't know this offhand but one of the moons, Titan, the biggest one, that has analogy to Earth?
LIU: There's a special significance to Titan. It's about 3,000 miles across. It's actually somewhere in between the size of our moon and the Earth. And it has a very thick atmosphere. So even though it's far out from the sun, nearly 1 billion miles, it may actually be warm enough on the surface to have lakes and rivers, not of water, but of other chemicals. And if the situation is just right, some scientists think that there may be organic activity down there, in other words, the first molecules that are forming things like proteins and DNA that may lead to life as we know it.
PILGRIM: I'm going to ask you an unfair question. We've talked a lot about Mars, and now we're talking about Saturn. Which is your favorite?
LIU: I think of the solar system as a system. Every single spot is important. And Saturn can tell us all kinds of things that Mars can't, and Mars a lot of what Saturn can't. It's a very exciting time. And beyond these four years that are coming up, there may be an extended mission. If we discover things, we may find the origins of life as we know it. It's a very exciting time.
PILGRIM: You make me so excited about space every time I talk to you. And I hope it goes well tomorrow. Tomorrow, a very critical day.
LIU: Absolutely, the closest approach to the planet.
PILGRIM: OK. Thanks very much. Charles Liu.
LIU: Always a pleasure.
PILGRIM: Tonight's thought is on space exploration, and here it is: "The most incomprehensible thing about the universe is that it's comprehensible." And those are the words of Albert Einstein.
Still ahead, some of your thoughts on "Exporting America." Plus, consumer confidence is rising, but two-thirds of the country's biggest retailers have yet to feel the effects. That and more still ahead here tonight.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PILGRIM: Stocks rose on Wall Street: the Dow gained 56 points; the NASDAQ rose 15; the S&P added almost three.
And encouraging news tonight on the economy, but not everyone is enjoying it. Christine Romans is here with the report -- Christine?
CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That's right, Kitty. You have crude oil prices at a two-month low. Gas prices also falling. And that's probably why consumer confidence is at a two-year high.
But at the same time, the discount retailers warn their sales are slowing. Wal-Mart shares, for example, are in a 10-day funk where they've lost 8 percent. Kitty, this is the longest Wal-Mart losing streak in at least 24 years. I've gone back to 1980. It's also got a sexual discrimination case class-action lawsuit that's part of this, but slowing sales is a problem.
And Target today also says consumers are spending less on shoes and electronics. Consumers are struggling with stagnant real wages, and interest rates on credit card debt and variable rate loans are soon about to go up.
And says Tom McManus of Banc of America, "Beware of the politicians posing as economists who tell you this is the strongest economy in 20 years." He says the long-term trend in jobs growth is 2.2% a year. Even this burst of jobs growth over the past nine months is only 1.5%. He says, "The consumer can feel it."
And Kitty, the investor can feel it, too. The first half of this year is almost over, and stocks are essentially flat. June shaping up to be the most quiet month of the year on the New York Stock Exchange.
PILGRIM: One can only hope it picks up this summer.
ROMANS: Sure.
PILGRIM: Thanks very much. Christine Romans.
Let's take a look at some of your thoughts on "Exporting America." Ken Frank of Oceanport, New Jersey, says, "Unless the politicians and business leaders understand the destructiveness of these acts to our economy, they will keep acting for their short-term self-interest at the expense of our economy, our job base, and our social structures."
And Dave Cromwell of Datil, New Mexico, says, "Lou is conservative and I am liberal, yet outsourcing, broken borders, and corporate bad guys are three issues we agree upon completely.
Send us your e-mails to loudobbs@cnn.com.
Still ahead, the results of tonight's poll. First, a reminder to check our Web site for the complete list of companies who have confirmed to be "Exporting America." Check it at cnn.com/lou.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PILGRIM: Now the results of tonight's poll: 62 percent of you believe President Bush should replace Dick Cheney as his running mate; 38 percent do not.
Thanks for joining us tonight. Please join us tomorrow: Former Oklahoma Congressman Dave McCurdy has just returned from China, and he says the Chinese are exploiting American intellectual capital. He'll be our guest. And in "Face Off," was the United States' mission in Iraq a success? We'll have a debate.
For all of us here, good night from New York. "ANDERSON COOPER 360" is next.
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