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Lou Dobbs Tonight
Saddam Faces Charges in Iraqi Court; Soldiers in Iraq Emotionally Wounded; Interview with Asa Hutchinson
Aired July 01, 2004 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LOU DOBBS, ANCHOR: Tonight, former Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein appears in a new Iraqi court to face charges of crimes against humanity and genocide.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RICHARD CHENEY, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Saddam Hussein stands arraigned in an Iraqi court where he will faced the justice he denied to millions?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: We'll have reports from Baghdad and the White House. An Iraqi expert, Professor Fouad Ajami, is our guest.
Wounded in action in Iraq. The Pentagon now says more than half of all Americans wounded in Iraq were severely injured, and a new study finds many of our troops returning home with emotional scars as well. General David Grange joins me.
Shippers and ports around the world racing to meet today's deadline for heightened security, but critics say it's not enough to protect our most vulnerable targets from terrorist attack: this nation's ports. Homeland Security Undersecretary Asa Hutchinson is our guest.
And a view of Saturn's rings unlike any other. The Cassini spacecraft sends back extraordinary pictures from its historic journey into orbit around the planet Saturn.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'm surprised at how surprised I am at the beauty and the clarity of these images.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: We'll have a special report. And astrophysicist Charles Liu joins us.
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT for Thursday, July 1. Here now for an hour of news, debate and opinion is Lou Dobbs.
DOBBS: Good evening.
Saddam Hussein today appeared in an Iraqi court to face war crimes charges from his two-and-a-half decades as a ruthless dictator. Iraq's three-day-old government arraigned the former leader under heavy security at one of this former palaces near Baghdad.
Christiane Amanpour reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): As Saddam Hussein was walked into court, he looked somewhat broken, unsure of what was going on. Then he took his seat before an investigative judge who asked him to say his name.
SADDAM HUSSEIN, FORMER IRAQI PRESIDENT (through interpreter): Saddam Hussein, the president of the Republic of Iraq.
AMANPOUR: What followed was a spirited exchange with the judge.
HUSSEIN (through interpreter): You also have to introduce yourself to me.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through interpreter): Mr. Saddam, I am the investigative judge of the Central Court of Iraq.
AMANPOUR: Saddam asked whether he was permitted to have lawyers there. The judge said yes and read him his rights.
The judge also read him seven charges, including attacking the Kurds of Halabja with chemical weapons. To that, Saddam replied that he, too, heard about Halabja in the media. "They say it happened under the rule of Saddam Hussein," he said. "Poison gas was used there."
Saddam was also charged with the brutal suppression of the Kurd and Shiite rebellions right after the first Gulf War and of killing political and religious figures throughout his rule.
When the judge read the last charge, the invasion of Kuwait, Saddam Hussein became angry, insisting that it was his duty as commander-in-chief to defend the Iraqi people from Kuwait which wanted to dramatically lower oil prices.
HUSSEIN (through translator): How can you punish that person while that person, given his title, has guarantees against being sued?
AMANPOUR: Saddam insulted the Kuwaitis, and the judge reprimanded him, saying such language would not be permitted in a court of law.
He also insulted President George W. Bush, saying this was a theater organized by "the criminal Bush to win his campaign."
Saddam also asked the judge who had jurisdiction over him. He asked him whether he was representing the occupation forces, and he insisted that the occupation could not strip him of his presidency.
When the judge asked Saddam to sign the court documents showing that he had been read his rights and he had been offered legal counsel, he refused, saying that he would not sign without a lawyer.
HUSSEIN (through translator): Please allow me -- allow me not to sign until the lawyers are present.
AMANPOUR: That ended the hearing. Saddam stood and was escorted out and back into U.S. military custody.
Christiane Amanpour, CNN, Baghdad.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: The Iraqi court also arraigned 11 members of Saddam Hussein's former regime. Former deputy prime minister Tariq Aziz told the judge he is not personally responsible for any killings. Aziz also said if the regime committed crimes, the moral responsibility rests with the leadership. Ali Hassan al Majeed, known as Chemical Ali also appeared in court. He is accused of ordering the chemical weapons attacks against Iraqi Kurds.
Senior White House Correspondent John King at the White House with the live report -- John.
JOHN KING, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Lou, that reaction coming not from the president himself who had two public events today, yet did not mention this dramatic day in Baghdad, the historic beginning of Saddam Hussein being brought to trial by his own people, his former citizens.
Mr. Bush, you see here, walking over to an event at which he swore in his new ambassador to the United Nations, Jack Danforth. He's actually walking back from that event. He said nothing in public.
But his press secretary did say that Mr. Bush did watch a snippet of the news proceedings detailing Saddam's dramatic day in court, and Scott McClellan, the White House press secretary, said you could be certain that the president was pleased by what he saw.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SCOTT MCCLELLAN, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: Saddam Hussein's regime was responsible for the systematic terrorizing, torture, killing and raping of innocent Iraqis. Saddam Hussein's regime was responsible for grave atrocities against the Iraqi people.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: More reaction from the vice president, Dick Cheney. He was traveling in a political event in New Orleans. At the beginning of his speech, he noted the last time he was in New Orleans.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHENEY: That was the same day that Saddam Hussein's statue came down in Baghdad.
(APPLAUSE)
CHENEY: Today, 15 months later, Saddam Hussein stands arraigned in an Iraqi court where he will face the justice he denied to millions.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: Mr. Cheney also going on at length about an issue that is not an item -- not a charge facing Saddam in the Iraqi tribunal. Mr. Cheney offering what he said was more evidence that Saddam Hussein did, indeed, have longstanding ties to al Qaeda.
Now here at the White House, Lou, one of the reasons they say the president did not comment was they say that this is now the business of the new Iraqi government, and Mr. Bush wants that new Iraqi government to have a chance to prove its commitment to the rule of law.
They did, however, dismiss Saddam's charge that this was all theater designed to help the Bush reelection campaign. They say nothing could be further from the truth, and they also, here at the White House, will not answer as to if the president has a preference as to whether Saddam Hussein should face the death penalty. They say that, too, will be decided now by this new court -- Lou.
DOBBS: John, in an interview with the BBC tonight, Jordan's King Abdullah said he would send troops to Iraq if this new government requests those troops. What is the White House saying?
KING: The White House says it has not heard that directly from King Abdullah but that it would be thrilled if that was the case for a number of reason. One, the president, of course, has appealed to all nations to help the multinational force, to add to the multinational force in Iraq, and the White House says it would be particularly significant if that help came from Jordan.
It is a country that has bordered Iraq, of course, that long had tense relations with Saddam Hussein, and, if Jordanian troops were to go into Iraq, they would be the first Arab troops on the ground as part of the multinational force. The White House believes that would show positive backing in the region for this new Iraqi government -- Lou.
DOBBS: Thank you.
John King, our senior White House correspondent.
A U.S. marine killed in action today in Anbar Province west of Baghdad. The military said the Marine was conducting security and stability operations. Anbar Province is home to insurgent strongholds of Fallujah and Ramadi. Another member of the multinational force was killed today in a roadside bomb south of Mosul. The soldier's nationality not disclosed.
The Pentagon today released new information on American forces wounded in Iraq: 5,394 American troops have been wounded since the invasion began in March of last year. More than half of those, 3,100, wounded so severely they were not able to return to duty within three days. More than 2,700 of those severely wounded were hurt after President Bush declared an end to major combat in May of last year.
Tonight, the multinational force in Iraq has a new American commander. General George Casey today replaced Lieutenant General Ricardo Sanchez as the top U.S. military official in Iraq. The military is hoping the change will help it defeat the still fierce insurgency.
Senior Pentagon Correspondent Jamie McIntyre reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN SENIOR PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): In Samara north of Baghdad, witnesses said four Iraqi bodyguards were killed when insurgents armed with rifles and rocket launchers attacked the house of a government official shortly after U.S. troops turned over a military headquarters to Iraqis and withdrew from the area. It's an example of the challenge the new top U.S. commander in Iraq faces as he tries to get Iraqi forces to provide for their own security.
GEN. GEORGE CASEY, TOP U.S. MILITARY OFFICIAL IN IRAQ: I am extremely proud to take command of this multinational force and to have the privilege of leading the sons and daughters from 34 freedom- loving nations committed to helping build a better life for the Iraqi people.
MCINTYRE: At Camp Victory, the main U.S. base in Baghdad, General George Casey took over Thursday from Lieutenant General Ricardo Sanchez as commander of the Multinational Force Iraq. Despite the transfer of sovereignty, the American general remains in control of all military forces. Under the new arrangement, both the U.S. and Iraqi militaries maintain some autonomy.
LAWRENCE DI RITA, PENTAGON SPOKESMAN: There's not a thing like veto authority and everything. All allies, for example, can decline to participate in an operation sometimes.
MCINTYRE: While the new interim government led by Prime Minister Iyad Allawi may opt out of some operations, the U.S. can also act without Iraqi approval if it wants to.
DI RITA: There's a general understanding that nobody likes surprises, but, on the other hand, there's an understanding that the coalition forces may at some time -- may sometimes have to operate in a way that requires speed and may require surprise.
MCINTYRE: While the new interim government has no control over the more than 160,000 foreign troops, it does have the right to ask them to leave, something it's made clear it has no intention of doing.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MCINTYRE: The Pentagon hopes in the weeks and months ahead, as more Iraqis battle the insurgents themselves, those U.S. casualty figures you cited, Lou, more than 850 dead, more than 5,300 wounded, will begin finally to decline -- Lou.
DOBBS: Let's hope so and quickly. Thank you very much.
Jamie McIntyre, senior Pentagon correspondent.
Iraqi oil exports were supposed to finance the country's massive reconstruction and to finance the new government. Oil industry experts had predicted that Iraq would be exporting as much as three million barrels of oil a day at this point in reconstruction. But sabotage and a failing infrastructure have severely limited Iraq's oil production.
Kitty Pilgrim reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KITTY PILGRIM, CNN BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): More than 4,000 miles of Iraqi oil and gas pipelines, but, since the war, there have been more than 130 acts of sabotage. The northern pipelines were all but closed, and now, in the past weeks, terrorist attacks have managed to shut down the southern pipelines, at least for a few days.
JAMES BURKHARD, CAMBRIDGE ENERGY RESEARCH: It's the highest oil price environment in more than two decades, so, with each barrel that is lost due to sabotage, that's certainly a significant amount of revenue that's not going to accrue to the Iraqi government.
PILGRIM: Interim Prime Minister Allawi estimated the latest attacks cost Iraq a billion dollars. Oil revenues that are meant to fund the Iraqi government and reconstruction.
Before the war, there was optimism Iraq could produce three million barrels a day. That was wildly unrealistic. When experts finally gained access to the oil facilities after the war, they found them badly damaged and looted.
FRANK VERRASTRO, CENTER FOR STRATEGIC AND INTERNATIONAL STUDIES: They've had over a decade of sanctions and suffered from 20 years of international neglect. So the infrastructure's in pretty bad shape. So getting production back up -- it's not an easy thing.
PILGRIM: Energy experts say the current average production of more than two million barrels a day is Iraq's real hope of success.
AMY MYERS JAFFE, BAKER INSTITUTE OF LAW: It's not like Afghanistan where there aren't any key export products to start from right in the beginning, so the Iraqis really have a lot going for them, and it's really just a question of trying to get political stability on the ground. Then I think the economic issues could take care of themselves very easily.
PILGRIM: Last year, Iraq earned an estimated $9.6 billion in oil export revenues. That's expected to jump 85 percent by the end of this year.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: And one of the other big questions is if foreign investment will develop the oil fields, and that would be one of the fastest ways to bring Iraqi oil production up to world standards, but that's unlikely to happen until the security problems can be addressed -- Lou.
DOBBS: Kitty, thank you very much.
Kitty Pilgrim.
Still ahead here, new concerns about U.S. troops in Iraq and Afghanistan, concerns about more than their physical safety. We'll be joined by General David Grange in "Grange on Point" tonight.
Also, one Iraqi expert say Iraqis have more urgent concerns than prosecuting Saddam Hussein. Professor Fouad Ajami is my guest.
And the view of Saturn's rings from the inside. We'll have remarkable pictures from the Cassini spacecraft now orbiting Saturn after a seven-year journey.
All of that and more coming right up.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: In "Grange on Point" tonight, the effects of combat on our servicemen and women, as we reported here last night, a disturbing new study finds that nearly one in five troops fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan may suffer from post-traumatic stress disorder, and many of those troops have not asked for medical attention. Joining me now, General David Grange from Chicago tonight.
General, is there anything in those numbers? Those are very striking high numbers. Are you surprised by them?
BRIG. GEN. DAVID GRANGE (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Not really, Lou. I think part of it is that they've documented stress from combat in many of the past wars, conflicts, but I think today it's much more accurate, there's more surveys, they can move data quickly and evaluate it, and so I think it's just more accessible and known to people.
But I think that it continues just like in any conflict, and the tough part there, the things that don't come out in the numbers are not only the stress of troops, but the stress of commanders that lose troops because you see the commander has to handle it and take care of those troops under his command or her command that actually are experiencing problems.
So it's a tough issue, but you've got to be able to handle it.
DOBBS: Got to be able to handle it. The fact is that those diagnosed, half not seeking treatment. Do you assume that the same is true of their commanders?
GRANGE: That's probably the case, and, a lot of times, it's not that there's not means available to the soldiers to take care of these issues. There are counselors, there's chaplains and religious chaplains and different capabilities, but sometimes it's the pace of operation. Sometimes it's a macho thing. They don't want the buddy or the other people in their squad to know that they may need some help. But there -- it's available to them, and, if they go after it or they're directed to do it, it's quite good.
DOBBS: Turning to another critical issue, calling up -- people have been separated from the service, some of them for more than a year, the IRR. What does this tell us about the Pentagon's assessment of their manpower needs and the challenges that we still face in Iraq?
GRANGE: Well, it tells me that we're dipping down a bit. These are specialties that the individual ready reserve, the IRR, provide, that the active forces or even activated mobilized National Guard and the regular reserve have shortfalls, and so you're taking people that still have commitment after their service period, if, in fact, they're called up. None of them expect to be called up, but, in this case, over 5,000 have. They'll get retrained and moved back out to fill ranks of shortages.
DOBBS: Yes, but, General, Congress -- a number of congressmen and women are calling for higher levels of strength in the U.S. military, particularly the U.S. Army. The Pentagon resisting, and, at the same time, moving to the IRR, extending the duty of our National Guardsmen and women and our reserves.
Isn't it about time that the Pentagon came straight up on this and dealt with the issue as they find it? I mean, it seems like a remarkable failure of the Pentagon in trying to assess their needs and the challenges.
GRANGE: Lou, I believe that the Pentagon and Congress need to face the fact that the military's too small for the commitments today, and it's not good enough just for Congress to say, yes, we're going to pay for another 30,000, add them immediately.
It involves years and years of payments and support of these military call-ups and families when you increase the size of the military. Personally, we should have done it years ago. We need it now. This is not a spike. It's a plateau in commitment of our armed forces around the world for some time to come.
DOBBS: Thank you very much, as always.
General David Grange.
GRANGE: My pleasure.
DOBBS: There is one body double that the Iraqi people won't mistake for the real Saddam Hussein. That's because this one is a foot high, and it is battery powered, and dances to the song "Hippy Hippy Shake." The dancing Saddam doll is a best seller in toy stores around Baghdad. Each doll is decked out with hand grenades, daggers, a walkie-talkie, binoculars, and, of course, an AK-47. That would be de riguer, one assumes. No word yet if the dancing Saddam doll will shimmy into U.S. stores this year.
Coming up next, Iraqi citizens watched their former dictator have his day in court. Professor Fouad Ajami joins me. He calls this trial of Saddam Hussein a sideshow. He suggests that Iraqis look to far more pressing issues. He's my guest next.
And ahead, saying goodbye to Hollywood. Jack Valenti signs off after a remarkable career. It is his replacement, however, that has many in Washington asking the tough questions. We'll have a report for you.
And stunning new pictures tonight from the Cassini spacecraft as it orbits Saturn.
We'll have those pictures, that story, and a great deal more coming right up.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ANNOUNCER: LOU DOBBS TONIGHT continues. Here now for more news, debate and opinion, Lou Dobbs.
DOBBS: Saddam Hussein in an Iraqi court today. The former dictator facing seven preliminary charges related to the murder of Iraqi Kurds, the invasion of Kuwait, and a number of other crimes.
My next guest, however, says the trial of Saddam Hussein is simply a sideshow. Fouad Ajami is professor of Middle Eastern studies at Johns Hopkins University and says more pressing issues face the Iraqi people.
And it's good to have you with us.
FOUAD AJAMI, JOHN HOPKINS UNIVERSITY PROFESSOR: Thank you very much, Lou.
DOBBS: Those issues are what?
AJAMI: Well, I think before we get to these issues, I think we have to celebrate what putting this man on trial really -- what it means for Iraqis. It's a signal day for Iraqis, and the discovery, of course, that comes to most people when they see men like Saddam Hussein is a small man behind these great crimes.
So great crimes were inflicted on the Iraqi people by this man and the cabal around him, and I think for the Iraqis to witness the small men, Tariq Aziz, to witness Chemical Ali frightened for his life -- I think it's a great day. So they have to get -- they will be tried, but they will not be tried in the next several months because much more urgent issues are really at stake in Iraq for now.
DOBBS: Deferring those issues for just a moment, a surprising report yesterday here from Baghdad. A very popular radio station there reporting that -- just about an even split between those Iraqis who would have Saddam Hussein executed and those who would set him free. Does that surprise you?
AJAMI: It does surprise me. I think Iraq is a divided country, but I think the numbers don't really track. I think maybe if you told me it's 80-20 that Kurds and the Shiite would like to see him skinned and the Sunni Arabs would like to spare him, that sounds more true.
These numbers are suspect to me because I think, by and large, there is tremendous consensus in the country outside the Sunni triangle on trying Saddam Hussein and holding him and his cabal for the great crimes and the great sins that had been perpetrated over three decades.
DOBBS: The issues that you see that are critical -- most critical to the Iraqi people?
AJAMI: Well, most critical, we have to defeat this insurgency. We have to defeat the jihadists. We have to make sure that people like Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, this prince of darkness who came from Jordan and came to sow death and destruction in the streets of Iraq, is defeated. We have to make sure that the Baathists are defeated. So security uppermost.
Everything else is really idle commentary at this point. We can't reconstruct Iraq, we can't put up -- we can't repair the pipelines if the insurgents will destroy it. So the defeat of the insurgency, electricity as the summer is upon us, the standing up of the security forces. And we have one of our best officers, Lieutenant General Petraeus, who's been dispatched to do this, to train the Iraqis.
These are the things that are upon us.
DOBBS: As we've talked over time, are you today more optimistic, more hopeful than previously?
AJAMI: Well, I think I remain -- this is really a roller coaster of a war. We've talked about this. This is a very, very -- the pain of this war is great, and the stakes in this war are equally great, and I think, in fact, that the American people are pressed, and they see the sacrifices and blood and torture (ph) in Iraq, and they're not sure. They really are not sure that any of this will stick on this hard soil of Iraq. So I think...
DOBBS: What do you think? Will it stick?
AJAMI: I think we don't really know. There is a kind of a noble quality. I even correspond with officers in the field, our own commanding officers there, and they have given it the best try, and still there is that great uncertainty.
Can this American project in Iraq work, and can Iraq respond to our pressure and to our inducements and to our reforms? Will there be an Iraqi nation? Is there an Iraqi nation. And can we at the end of the day leave with some measure of satisfaction that our work in Iraq was not in vain?
DOBBS: The military has done a remarkable job throughout.
AJAMI: Amazing.
DOBBS: The government itself, in terms of what we have sought as, if you will, governmental initiatives rather than that directed by the military, highly questionable. A year of abject failure in many parts of Iraq on the part of the U.S. government. How do we retrieve that time, can we, and how do we remedy it?
AJAMI: Well, I don't know. I think -- here is something. We need to get money to the Iraqi people. I mean, we have this $18 billion that we've talked about, this money that the Congress earmarked for Iraq. Now, of this $18 billion, I understand $3 billion or $4 billion had been "committed." Only $300 million to $400 million has been spent.
So we need to make sure that Iraqis see progress in their lives. But we've begun to do things right. We've begun to tell the Iraqis this is your country, it's not our country.
DOBBS: If the BBC report is accurate and confirmed and the White House eventually responds to it, the question is -- King Abdullah of Jordan sending troops is a monumental step here.
AJAMI: Well, Lou, bring me back. I want to talk about this at some point. This is -- we've seen this movie before. It was called bringing Turkish troops in. And guess what Iraqis told us. Folks, we can't use Turkish troops. The Kurds hate them.
OK. King Abdullah of Jordan would like to be a player. He would like to get paid for being a player, but the moment you talk about Jordanians going to Iraq -- these are Sunni troops, the Jordanians. Will they -- will the Shia of Iraq want them? They won't. Will the Kurds want them? They won't. This is the administration refuses to know the intimate details of the Arab world. When they talked about -- when they talked about bringing Turks in we told them, unusable. The Jordanians are they usable in Iraq, I'm not convinced.
DOBBS: You don't think then the new Iraqi government will invite King Abdullah's troops?
AJAMI: There is absolutely no chance that I can see that Jordanians would be usable. Are the Saudi usable, no. Are the Pakistanis usable, no. It's difficult to bring Muslim troops, Arab troops into Iraq and they would be accepted. You bring a Sunni soldier from Saudi Arabia, you put him in Najaf and Karbala, he sees these shrines in Najaf and Karbala as symbols of blasphemy. Is he reliable there, no.
What about the Jordanians?
The Jordanians, would like to cut themselves into the deal. Can we use them, no, but the administration is willful about this. And I think if they check with their own people in the field, they'll tell them that it's much more difficult to use Jordanians than we are now being told.
DOBBS: Professor Fouad Ajami thank you for being here. It is both good to see you and always educational to listen to you. Thank you.
That brings us to the subject of our "Poll" tonight. Do you believe Saddam Hussein should face the death penalty, yes or no?
Cast your vote at cnn.com/lou. We'll have the results for you later in the broadcast.
Let's take a look at some of "Your Thoughts" now. Many of you writing in about our poll last night in which we asked whether the United States mission in Iraq has improved the lives of average Iraqis.
Daniel Flint, of El Paso, Texas, "I would hate to see an Iraq where we the United States had not intervened and stopped the dictatorial regime of Saddam Hussein."
Elmer Birney, of Oneco, Florida, asked "Torture, rape rooms, total violation of human rights, and mass killings than conditions today."
Ernest Taylor, Bridgewater, Massachusetts, "Lou, I don't understand how we can find tens of billions of dollars to repair the infrastructure in Iraq and we can't find a few billion to upgrade the infrastructure here at home."
Gayle Stream, of Cave City, Kentucky, "Mr. Dobbs we are losing the war in Afghanistan because we can't support the people there who tried to win it. We are bogged down in Iraq and have destabilized the whole Middle East."
DOBBS: We appreciate "Your Thoughts." Send them at loudobbs@cnn.com.
The Motion Picture Association of America today announced its choice for a successor to its long-time president Jack Valenti. Former Clinton Administration, Secretary of Agriculture Dan Glickman will take on the role of chief lobbyist for the movie industry in Washington. Our Congressional correspondent Ed Henry on what he can expect on Capitol Hill.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ED HENRY, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): After nearly 40 years as Hollywood's man in Washington which made him a towering figure on both coasts, Jack Valenti is exiting the stage.
JACK VALENTI, OUTGOING MPAA PRESIDENT: I know it, a lot of you have been saying when is that old son of a (EXPLICIT DELETED) going to leave -- well, this is it. It's been a long ride. It's been a great ride. I've really never failed to wake up in the morning eager to be about my chores because I really love this movie business and all the people who work in it. HENRY: Valenti will now raise money for a non-profit that's fighting the AIDS crisis. He's turning over the motion picture industry to a fellow Democrat, former Agricultural Secretary Dan Glickman, and that has infuriated Republicans.
GROVER NORQUIST, CONSERVATIVE ACTIVIST: This is one of the most fool foolish decisions an industry has made to prior to this the election insult the president, insult Republican leadership of Congress.
HENRY: Conservatives recall that when Democrats dominated Washington, they scooped up the top lobbying jobs such as when Valenti left the Johnson White House in the mid '60s. Now that the GOP controls the White House and both chambers of Congress, Republicans believe they should get the spoils. The Motion Picture Association interviewed Democrats and Republicans. The job was first offered to Republican Congressman Billy Tauzin who turned it down. While the association eventually settled on a Democrat, Valenti said nobody should read into that.
VALENTI: This is not a partisan job. This is a nonpolitical job. This is an American job, because to preserve, protect and defend the American film here and around the world requires all members of Congress on both sides of the aisle.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HENRY: Lou, Republicans up here say they're scratching their heads over this appointment for two reason. First of all, Dan Glickman is not known for having an electric personality, something you would expect Hollywood to want in this job, and secondly as was noted in the piece, Republicans think that Glickman is a partisan Democrat, he will have a hard time working with the GOP Congress. But Dan Glickman himself pointed out at the press conference that he was a bipartisan member when he was in Congress. He was chairman of the Intelligence Committee which, in fact, is usually considered a bipartisan committee. And second of all, Dan Glickman said as ad secretary in the Clinton administration he had to negotiate a lot of trade agreements that were very difficult. And Lou, if he's still working with the Republican Congress next year after this election he's going to need all those negotiating skills, Lou.
DOBBS: Absolutely. And what is the reaction to these people, these Republicans who are concerned about a Democrat being put in place, Billy Tauzin, not exactly a liberal, having the first opportunity?
HENRY: Right. Well, Billy Tauzin was a Democrat. As you know, he switched parties in recent years, been a Republican. He was chairman of the Energy and Commerce Committee. And a lot of Democrats think that it's unethical to put too much pressure on these associations on these business groups, to hire only Republican lobbyists. They do think that it's been unfair. But Republicans say they're not going overboard, just sending a signal they want to see more Republicans getting these top jobs because they want to work with their fellow Republicans. But we'll see what happens after the election, obviously, all that can change.
Well, there is some, I think, ironic humor in this, in that our politicians in Washington want to decide who will run the lobbying organizations and, of course, the lobbyists want to decide who is working in government, so perhaps this is a balance of sorts.
Ed Henry, thanks for being here.
HENRY: Thank you.
DOBBS: Meanwhile, entertainment industry workers in this country are taking a stand against the exporting of American jobs to cheap foreign labor markets. The Film and Television Action Committee has now filed a complaint with the Commerce Department's task force on unfair trade, claiming Canada and Australia are offering unfair tax breaks to filmmakers who move production out of this country. "The Chronicles of Riddick" and "The Terminal" are only two films at least partially filmed in Canada. The group says these run -- these runway productions -- run away productions have taken away tens of thousands of jobs from Americans. The committee wants the Commerce Department to impose a new tariff on films and television shows imported into this country.
Coming up next here, the massive effort to secure the nation's borders and its ports.
Just how safe are they?
We'll find out. Homeland Security Under Secretary Asa Hutchinson is other guest.
And the remarkable mission of Cassini. The rings of Saturn from a perspective never seen before. We'll have those stunning pictures coming right up.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Amazing photographs tonight from the Cassini spacecraft. Cassini has become the first spacecraft to enter Saturn's orbit. Now it begins what will be a four-year journey around the ring planet.
Space correspondent Miles O'Brien reports from Pasadena, California.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MILES O'BRIEN, CNN SPACE CORRESPONDENT: Nearly seven years after it left Earth, Cassini, the largest, most elaborate, most expensive planetary probe ever, twice shot a gap in Saturn's rocky rings and ended up safe and sound orbiting the solar system's second largest planet. A rock the size of a marble could have taken the $3 billion craft out. The celebration came after a tense 96-minute engine firing that slowed down the gangly six ton spacecraft just enough to feel Saturn's pull.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Probably this was the longest 90 minutes that I ever spent. I never realized how long is 90 minutes until today.
O'BRIEN: As it stitched between the rings, the craft was programmed to aim its cameras right at them. The rings are made mostly of ice -- possibly the remnants of a moon that came too close to Saturn and was ripped apart. Scientists are fascinated by the rings because among other things they resemble planets in formation.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So, in a sense, it gives us a picture of how most likely the solar system might have formed, taken in miniature.
O'BRIEN: Ring scientists -- yes, there are such things -- are focusing on the distinct bands that appear to be cleared away by some sort of celestial Zamboni. It is quite likely some of these are created by previously unknown moons of Saturn.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There's a very good chance that moon count will climb in the very near future.
O'BRIEN: As interesting and beautiful as the planet may be, Saturn's moons may provide the most scientific pay dirt. The highlight could come in January when the spacecraft will send a tiny probe onto the surface of Titan, a Saturn moon that is the size of a planet. Scientists believe it has an atmosphere which mimics Earth's as it was when it was a toddler. The probe could provide a distant mirror to our own origins here.
Miles O'Brien, CNN, Pasadena, California.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: Joining me now to discuss this remarkable expedition is Charles Liu, astrophysicist at the Museum of Natural History. And Charles, it's always good to have you here, particularly to celebrate, in part, the success that's utterly remarkable.
CHARLES LIU, ASTROPHYSICIST, MUSEUM OF NATURAL HISTORY: Absolutely. Decades in the making -- literally, from planning to actual arrival. It's so exciting to see this come to fruition.
DOBBS: And to see that imagery of the rings around Saturn, as Miles O'Brien reported, we're going to be also gaining far more knowledge about the 31 moons -- satellites -- if that's a correct count.
LIU: For now.
DOBBS: For now. Tell us what you think -- well, what, first of all, is the reaction amongst the people at JPL -- Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Pasadena -- and NASA and everyone associated with the program.
LIU: Well, my planetary colleagues are just thrilled. They are telling me that this is one of the most important changes or improvements in our understanding of the entire solar system that's coming a long, long time. These next four years are the primary mission, and hopefully a few more years of extended mission, will really reveal to us the completely unexplored area of the solar system to date.
DOBBS: As you look at these images -- and to think that it took seven years, basically, for this Cassini spacecraft...
LIU: That's right.
DOBBS: ...a U.S./European joint venture -- to reach Saturn. And to be able to do this, I -- if people are not overwhelmed by this -- that simple amazing feat, it's just -- it's incredible.
LIU: I absolutely agree. It's been a marvel of engineering, of basic science, of technology development and now of discovery.
DOBBS: Discovery. Let's talk about a few things we need to discover about Saturn. What in the world are those rings made out of?
LIU: That's a great question. We're pretty sure at this point that these rings are made out of millions and millions of particles -- anything from the size of a pea to the size of a large house. And that's basically why everyone was so nervous last night as Cassini was passing through gaps in those rings -- any one stray piece could have destroyed and ended the mission.
But those little moons, aside from being perhaps proto-planetary things...
DOBBS: Right.
LIU: ...as Miles discussed, will tell us how things move in orbit in complex systems in the solar system.
DOBBS: And how do we end up with those gaps in those rings?
LIU: Yes, exactly. We think that some of those gaps are caused by small moons that actually clear out those spaces and, in the process of clearing them out, also hold the rings stable for hundreds of millions of years, instead of letting those pieces disintegrate.
The more we learn about the rings, the more we learn about how solar system objects move and potentially say things like asteroids that might hit the Earth, perhaps we'll be able to understand how they move, too, so we can prevent say civilization ending, perhaps.
DOBBS: Well, that would be, I think, amongst the most noble of causes. And we, obviously, wish you and all of the planetary scientists and everyone associated all the best of luck in that enterprise and what will be a four-year tutorial on Saturn and its environments.
Charles Liu, as always, thanks for being here.
LIU: A pleasure. Thanks for having me.
DOBBS: And tonight's thought is on Saturn -- you're going to like this, Charles.
LIU: OK.
DOBBS: "The scientific theory I like best is that the rings of Saturn are composed entirely of lost airline luggage." Those are the words of none other than Mark Russell, who is one of my favorite comedians.
When we continue, the U.S. General Accounting Office casts doubts on the security of our nation's ports. We'll be talking with the Undersecretary of Homeland Security, Asa Hutchinson, about border security, port security, national security -- next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Today is the deadline for the nation's 361 major ports to meet new security guidelines. The United Nations International Maritime Organization and the Department of Homeland Security increased security standards for seaports and ships all around the world, trying to prevent terrorist attacks.
The Coast Guard today barred five ships from entering U.S. ports. This comes just days after a Congressional report suggested as many as seven percent of American ports would not meet the security deadline.
Joining me now is Asa Hutchinson, Homeland Security Under Secretary for Border and Transportation Security. Mr. Secretary, good to have you here.
ASA HUTCHINSON, UNDERSECRETARY FOR BORDER AND TRANSPORTATION SECURITY: Good to be with you.
DOBBS: This deadline, is it -- in your judgment, is it -- has it been met? Are you satisfied with where we are?
HUTCHINSON: Well, I think it's a very good-news story, first of all, that we had domestic standards, followed by the international standards -- which is the first time in history -- implemented today, July 1. We believe that all of the plans have been submitted; they have been evaluated.
Now, we have to measure the implementation of those plans -- the new security measures at the ports and how they are in compliance with their own security plans. But this has been a very good day. As you pointed out, there were a few ships that were not allowed to come in because they were not in compliance.
So, we have the enforcement capability that were put in place.
DOBBS: They -- the level of security, now more than -- as we approach three years after September 11, there are people who wonder why in the world has it taken us so long. And one understands the bureaucratic issues involved in Washington in managing a huge department such as yours -- that of the entire Department of Homeland Security.
But my goodness, how long is it going to take before we have full security at our ports, full security at our borders? HUTCHINSON: Well, I think that you put it in perspective. First of all, to move toward security of our ports, we can protect our own ports -- and we're doing that. But you also have to recognize the international shipping industry and the international ports. And our security would not be sufficient if we do not bring those along.
And in two-and-a-half years to set international standards to bring the investment of the international shipping companies -- I talked to one today that have 2,300 employees in the shipping company that are involved in security and have gone through security training. This is an extraordinary step forward.
So, you combine what we're doing overseas for the inspection of the containers coming toward the United States with the port security standards that are in place, the private investment, I think it's a pretty good combination of success.
DOBBS: I've heard more than one or two people, very knowledgeable on national security -- and I won't use their names, because they were speaking not for publication -- saying that we need to do far more, that in point of fact we are still putting our commercial interests ahead of our security interests, whether we are talking about the borders or the ports. And that we need to be far more constrained. How do you react to that?
HUTCHINSON: Well, I think it's wrong. I think, first of all, we don't put anything below the high standard of security that is so critical to our nation. At the same time, we not to shut down our borders and our ports, we're to make sure we protect our commerce as well. But I think that whenever you look at 300 years of history of developing our ports without security in mind, in 2 and a half years you make tremendous progress, but certainly you're going to have some vulnerabilities that are going to remain for some time.
We have done, though, with these new assessments as a good (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
DOBBS: And a tough job. I think everyone acknowledges that. And in your job, you have to spend some sleepless nights knowing that it only takes 1 mistake across all of our borders and across our ports for you to be a failure at your job. How do you handle that kind of pressure?
HUTCHINSON: Well, you worry about not fixing those things that we can fix and we, you know, finding the vulnerabilities, the threats that we know that the terrorists are trying to exploit and fixing them. So, my job is to worry.
And I think that the 180,000 men and women are working very hard at it. And I think we're having progress every day.
DOBBS: Let me ask you a couple of questions about the border. T.J. Bonner, president of the National Border Control Council, you know, saying basically that border patrol agents being ordered, effectively, not to apprehend illegal aliens crossing our border, to stand their ground and to simply not be permitted to apprehend them. Why would such a policy be permitted?
HUTCHINSON: Well, that statement is totally wrong. Whenever you look at our Arizona Border Control Initiative, we've deployed hundreds of new border patrol agents. We're apprehending 16,000 illegal aliens per week trying to come across this area of the border. And so to say that we're not encouraging the enforcement and protection of our borders is totally wrong.
We've added technology, including unmanned aerial vehicles that we're testing this week, as well as new personnel.
DOBBS: How many people do you think are crossing the border illegally every year? Southern border, the northern border?
HUTCHINSON: We're apprehending more than a million per year. As to what percent of those we are getting, I think it's a very high percent. But I think that's undetermined. I don't know that you could really speculate on that.
DOBBS: A lot of people do, as you know. Fifty members of Congress, including the House Majority Leader Tom Delay sent you a letter rather recently on June 24 talking about the mobile patrol groups. Why isn't that pilot project being more broadly implemented?
HUTCHINSON: Well, the mobile patrol groups of the Border Patrol do interior checkpoints. They also work in the transportation hubs responding to intelligence, very appropriate. We support them tremendously.
But we have, in Homeland Security, a number of different groups that is involved in interior enforcement, worksite enforcement in which we're almost doubling the funding for that program. We have detention and removal teams, we have fugitive ops teams. So it's a matter of coordinating among those.
The Border Patrol, when you look at their responsibility, we try to focus on the nexus to the border, that's why we're focusing on the Arizona Border Control Initiative.
DOBBS: Asa Hutchinson, we thank you very much for being with us here.
HUTCHINSON: Thank you, Lou.
DOBBS: Coming up next, oil prices rise sharply today. More good news, the Saudi Arabian government has something to say about that. Christine Romans will have the story in just a moment. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Stocks today lower. The Dow down more than a 100 points, the NASDAQ fell more than 32, the S&P down nearly 12. As stocks fell, oil prices rose. Christine Romans is here with what was a bad news day.
CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN FINANCIAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes. Lou, oil prices up almost 5 percent today after the Saudis say prices have fallen enough recently and they're now fair. Bear in mind, they're still $10 above OPEC's own $22 to $28 desired band. Energy secretary Spencer Abraham says, if OPEC is going to go to the trouble to set a price target, it should at least try to meet it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SPENCER ABRAHAM, ENERGY SECRETARY: We've called upon the producers to make sure they don't take action that will undermine economic growth, either ours or the rest of the world.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ROMANS: Speaking of the rest of the world, Merrill Lynch tonight says China is building its own strategic oil reserve, and being pretty elusive about the details. That's straining world supplies, Merrill says, and keeping prices high.
Also today, Lou, disappointing jobless claims: For the second week, more people lined up for unemployment benefits. Six weeks in a row now, above 350,000. That's going in the wrong direction, and raised worries about tomorrow's jobs report.
And Lou, General Motors sales fell 15 percent in June. Wal-Mart and Target, remember they also had softer than expected sales, in combination, it might be indicative of a weaker consumer here.
DOBBS: Let's hope not. Christine thanks. Christine Romans.
Still ahead here, we'll have our poll results. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: The results of tonight's poll: 57 percent of you say Saddam Hussein should face the death penalty, 43 percent say you do not.
Please join us tomorrow night. Our special report on the handover of power in Iraq. Tomorrow, the role for international troops.
Also tomorrow, 2 of this country's leading journalists join us to discuss Iraq, the economic recovery and the election.
And in "Heroes" we'll have the story of a courageous young man who risked his life to save his fellow soldiers. Please be with us.
For all of us here, good night from New York. "ANDERSON COOPER 360" is next.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired July 1, 2004 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LOU DOBBS, ANCHOR: Tonight, former Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein appears in a new Iraqi court to face charges of crimes against humanity and genocide.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RICHARD CHENEY, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Saddam Hussein stands arraigned in an Iraqi court where he will faced the justice he denied to millions?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: We'll have reports from Baghdad and the White House. An Iraqi expert, Professor Fouad Ajami, is our guest.
Wounded in action in Iraq. The Pentagon now says more than half of all Americans wounded in Iraq were severely injured, and a new study finds many of our troops returning home with emotional scars as well. General David Grange joins me.
Shippers and ports around the world racing to meet today's deadline for heightened security, but critics say it's not enough to protect our most vulnerable targets from terrorist attack: this nation's ports. Homeland Security Undersecretary Asa Hutchinson is our guest.
And a view of Saturn's rings unlike any other. The Cassini spacecraft sends back extraordinary pictures from its historic journey into orbit around the planet Saturn.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'm surprised at how surprised I am at the beauty and the clarity of these images.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: We'll have a special report. And astrophysicist Charles Liu joins us.
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT for Thursday, July 1. Here now for an hour of news, debate and opinion is Lou Dobbs.
DOBBS: Good evening.
Saddam Hussein today appeared in an Iraqi court to face war crimes charges from his two-and-a-half decades as a ruthless dictator. Iraq's three-day-old government arraigned the former leader under heavy security at one of this former palaces near Baghdad.
Christiane Amanpour reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): As Saddam Hussein was walked into court, he looked somewhat broken, unsure of what was going on. Then he took his seat before an investigative judge who asked him to say his name.
SADDAM HUSSEIN, FORMER IRAQI PRESIDENT (through interpreter): Saddam Hussein, the president of the Republic of Iraq.
AMANPOUR: What followed was a spirited exchange with the judge.
HUSSEIN (through interpreter): You also have to introduce yourself to me.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through interpreter): Mr. Saddam, I am the investigative judge of the Central Court of Iraq.
AMANPOUR: Saddam asked whether he was permitted to have lawyers there. The judge said yes and read him his rights.
The judge also read him seven charges, including attacking the Kurds of Halabja with chemical weapons. To that, Saddam replied that he, too, heard about Halabja in the media. "They say it happened under the rule of Saddam Hussein," he said. "Poison gas was used there."
Saddam was also charged with the brutal suppression of the Kurd and Shiite rebellions right after the first Gulf War and of killing political and religious figures throughout his rule.
When the judge read the last charge, the invasion of Kuwait, Saddam Hussein became angry, insisting that it was his duty as commander-in-chief to defend the Iraqi people from Kuwait which wanted to dramatically lower oil prices.
HUSSEIN (through translator): How can you punish that person while that person, given his title, has guarantees against being sued?
AMANPOUR: Saddam insulted the Kuwaitis, and the judge reprimanded him, saying such language would not be permitted in a court of law.
He also insulted President George W. Bush, saying this was a theater organized by "the criminal Bush to win his campaign."
Saddam also asked the judge who had jurisdiction over him. He asked him whether he was representing the occupation forces, and he insisted that the occupation could not strip him of his presidency.
When the judge asked Saddam to sign the court documents showing that he had been read his rights and he had been offered legal counsel, he refused, saying that he would not sign without a lawyer.
HUSSEIN (through translator): Please allow me -- allow me not to sign until the lawyers are present.
AMANPOUR: That ended the hearing. Saddam stood and was escorted out and back into U.S. military custody.
Christiane Amanpour, CNN, Baghdad.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: The Iraqi court also arraigned 11 members of Saddam Hussein's former regime. Former deputy prime minister Tariq Aziz told the judge he is not personally responsible for any killings. Aziz also said if the regime committed crimes, the moral responsibility rests with the leadership. Ali Hassan al Majeed, known as Chemical Ali also appeared in court. He is accused of ordering the chemical weapons attacks against Iraqi Kurds.
Senior White House Correspondent John King at the White House with the live report -- John.
JOHN KING, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Lou, that reaction coming not from the president himself who had two public events today, yet did not mention this dramatic day in Baghdad, the historic beginning of Saddam Hussein being brought to trial by his own people, his former citizens.
Mr. Bush, you see here, walking over to an event at which he swore in his new ambassador to the United Nations, Jack Danforth. He's actually walking back from that event. He said nothing in public.
But his press secretary did say that Mr. Bush did watch a snippet of the news proceedings detailing Saddam's dramatic day in court, and Scott McClellan, the White House press secretary, said you could be certain that the president was pleased by what he saw.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SCOTT MCCLELLAN, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: Saddam Hussein's regime was responsible for the systematic terrorizing, torture, killing and raping of innocent Iraqis. Saddam Hussein's regime was responsible for grave atrocities against the Iraqi people.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: More reaction from the vice president, Dick Cheney. He was traveling in a political event in New Orleans. At the beginning of his speech, he noted the last time he was in New Orleans.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHENEY: That was the same day that Saddam Hussein's statue came down in Baghdad.
(APPLAUSE)
CHENEY: Today, 15 months later, Saddam Hussein stands arraigned in an Iraqi court where he will face the justice he denied to millions.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: Mr. Cheney also going on at length about an issue that is not an item -- not a charge facing Saddam in the Iraqi tribunal. Mr. Cheney offering what he said was more evidence that Saddam Hussein did, indeed, have longstanding ties to al Qaeda.
Now here at the White House, Lou, one of the reasons they say the president did not comment was they say that this is now the business of the new Iraqi government, and Mr. Bush wants that new Iraqi government to have a chance to prove its commitment to the rule of law.
They did, however, dismiss Saddam's charge that this was all theater designed to help the Bush reelection campaign. They say nothing could be further from the truth, and they also, here at the White House, will not answer as to if the president has a preference as to whether Saddam Hussein should face the death penalty. They say that, too, will be decided now by this new court -- Lou.
DOBBS: John, in an interview with the BBC tonight, Jordan's King Abdullah said he would send troops to Iraq if this new government requests those troops. What is the White House saying?
KING: The White House says it has not heard that directly from King Abdullah but that it would be thrilled if that was the case for a number of reason. One, the president, of course, has appealed to all nations to help the multinational force, to add to the multinational force in Iraq, and the White House says it would be particularly significant if that help came from Jordan.
It is a country that has bordered Iraq, of course, that long had tense relations with Saddam Hussein, and, if Jordanian troops were to go into Iraq, they would be the first Arab troops on the ground as part of the multinational force. The White House believes that would show positive backing in the region for this new Iraqi government -- Lou.
DOBBS: Thank you.
John King, our senior White House correspondent.
A U.S. marine killed in action today in Anbar Province west of Baghdad. The military said the Marine was conducting security and stability operations. Anbar Province is home to insurgent strongholds of Fallujah and Ramadi. Another member of the multinational force was killed today in a roadside bomb south of Mosul. The soldier's nationality not disclosed.
The Pentagon today released new information on American forces wounded in Iraq: 5,394 American troops have been wounded since the invasion began in March of last year. More than half of those, 3,100, wounded so severely they were not able to return to duty within three days. More than 2,700 of those severely wounded were hurt after President Bush declared an end to major combat in May of last year.
Tonight, the multinational force in Iraq has a new American commander. General George Casey today replaced Lieutenant General Ricardo Sanchez as the top U.S. military official in Iraq. The military is hoping the change will help it defeat the still fierce insurgency.
Senior Pentagon Correspondent Jamie McIntyre reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN SENIOR PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): In Samara north of Baghdad, witnesses said four Iraqi bodyguards were killed when insurgents armed with rifles and rocket launchers attacked the house of a government official shortly after U.S. troops turned over a military headquarters to Iraqis and withdrew from the area. It's an example of the challenge the new top U.S. commander in Iraq faces as he tries to get Iraqi forces to provide for their own security.
GEN. GEORGE CASEY, TOP U.S. MILITARY OFFICIAL IN IRAQ: I am extremely proud to take command of this multinational force and to have the privilege of leading the sons and daughters from 34 freedom- loving nations committed to helping build a better life for the Iraqi people.
MCINTYRE: At Camp Victory, the main U.S. base in Baghdad, General George Casey took over Thursday from Lieutenant General Ricardo Sanchez as commander of the Multinational Force Iraq. Despite the transfer of sovereignty, the American general remains in control of all military forces. Under the new arrangement, both the U.S. and Iraqi militaries maintain some autonomy.
LAWRENCE DI RITA, PENTAGON SPOKESMAN: There's not a thing like veto authority and everything. All allies, for example, can decline to participate in an operation sometimes.
MCINTYRE: While the new interim government led by Prime Minister Iyad Allawi may opt out of some operations, the U.S. can also act without Iraqi approval if it wants to.
DI RITA: There's a general understanding that nobody likes surprises, but, on the other hand, there's an understanding that the coalition forces may at some time -- may sometimes have to operate in a way that requires speed and may require surprise.
MCINTYRE: While the new interim government has no control over the more than 160,000 foreign troops, it does have the right to ask them to leave, something it's made clear it has no intention of doing.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MCINTYRE: The Pentagon hopes in the weeks and months ahead, as more Iraqis battle the insurgents themselves, those U.S. casualty figures you cited, Lou, more than 850 dead, more than 5,300 wounded, will begin finally to decline -- Lou.
DOBBS: Let's hope so and quickly. Thank you very much.
Jamie McIntyre, senior Pentagon correspondent.
Iraqi oil exports were supposed to finance the country's massive reconstruction and to finance the new government. Oil industry experts had predicted that Iraq would be exporting as much as three million barrels of oil a day at this point in reconstruction. But sabotage and a failing infrastructure have severely limited Iraq's oil production.
Kitty Pilgrim reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KITTY PILGRIM, CNN BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): More than 4,000 miles of Iraqi oil and gas pipelines, but, since the war, there have been more than 130 acts of sabotage. The northern pipelines were all but closed, and now, in the past weeks, terrorist attacks have managed to shut down the southern pipelines, at least for a few days.
JAMES BURKHARD, CAMBRIDGE ENERGY RESEARCH: It's the highest oil price environment in more than two decades, so, with each barrel that is lost due to sabotage, that's certainly a significant amount of revenue that's not going to accrue to the Iraqi government.
PILGRIM: Interim Prime Minister Allawi estimated the latest attacks cost Iraq a billion dollars. Oil revenues that are meant to fund the Iraqi government and reconstruction.
Before the war, there was optimism Iraq could produce three million barrels a day. That was wildly unrealistic. When experts finally gained access to the oil facilities after the war, they found them badly damaged and looted.
FRANK VERRASTRO, CENTER FOR STRATEGIC AND INTERNATIONAL STUDIES: They've had over a decade of sanctions and suffered from 20 years of international neglect. So the infrastructure's in pretty bad shape. So getting production back up -- it's not an easy thing.
PILGRIM: Energy experts say the current average production of more than two million barrels a day is Iraq's real hope of success.
AMY MYERS JAFFE, BAKER INSTITUTE OF LAW: It's not like Afghanistan where there aren't any key export products to start from right in the beginning, so the Iraqis really have a lot going for them, and it's really just a question of trying to get political stability on the ground. Then I think the economic issues could take care of themselves very easily.
PILGRIM: Last year, Iraq earned an estimated $9.6 billion in oil export revenues. That's expected to jump 85 percent by the end of this year.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: And one of the other big questions is if foreign investment will develop the oil fields, and that would be one of the fastest ways to bring Iraqi oil production up to world standards, but that's unlikely to happen until the security problems can be addressed -- Lou.
DOBBS: Kitty, thank you very much.
Kitty Pilgrim.
Still ahead here, new concerns about U.S. troops in Iraq and Afghanistan, concerns about more than their physical safety. We'll be joined by General David Grange in "Grange on Point" tonight.
Also, one Iraqi expert say Iraqis have more urgent concerns than prosecuting Saddam Hussein. Professor Fouad Ajami is my guest.
And the view of Saturn's rings from the inside. We'll have remarkable pictures from the Cassini spacecraft now orbiting Saturn after a seven-year journey.
All of that and more coming right up.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: In "Grange on Point" tonight, the effects of combat on our servicemen and women, as we reported here last night, a disturbing new study finds that nearly one in five troops fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan may suffer from post-traumatic stress disorder, and many of those troops have not asked for medical attention. Joining me now, General David Grange from Chicago tonight.
General, is there anything in those numbers? Those are very striking high numbers. Are you surprised by them?
BRIG. GEN. DAVID GRANGE (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Not really, Lou. I think part of it is that they've documented stress from combat in many of the past wars, conflicts, but I think today it's much more accurate, there's more surveys, they can move data quickly and evaluate it, and so I think it's just more accessible and known to people.
But I think that it continues just like in any conflict, and the tough part there, the things that don't come out in the numbers are not only the stress of troops, but the stress of commanders that lose troops because you see the commander has to handle it and take care of those troops under his command or her command that actually are experiencing problems.
So it's a tough issue, but you've got to be able to handle it.
DOBBS: Got to be able to handle it. The fact is that those diagnosed, half not seeking treatment. Do you assume that the same is true of their commanders?
GRANGE: That's probably the case, and, a lot of times, it's not that there's not means available to the soldiers to take care of these issues. There are counselors, there's chaplains and religious chaplains and different capabilities, but sometimes it's the pace of operation. Sometimes it's a macho thing. They don't want the buddy or the other people in their squad to know that they may need some help. But there -- it's available to them, and, if they go after it or they're directed to do it, it's quite good.
DOBBS: Turning to another critical issue, calling up -- people have been separated from the service, some of them for more than a year, the IRR. What does this tell us about the Pentagon's assessment of their manpower needs and the challenges that we still face in Iraq?
GRANGE: Well, it tells me that we're dipping down a bit. These are specialties that the individual ready reserve, the IRR, provide, that the active forces or even activated mobilized National Guard and the regular reserve have shortfalls, and so you're taking people that still have commitment after their service period, if, in fact, they're called up. None of them expect to be called up, but, in this case, over 5,000 have. They'll get retrained and moved back out to fill ranks of shortages.
DOBBS: Yes, but, General, Congress -- a number of congressmen and women are calling for higher levels of strength in the U.S. military, particularly the U.S. Army. The Pentagon resisting, and, at the same time, moving to the IRR, extending the duty of our National Guardsmen and women and our reserves.
Isn't it about time that the Pentagon came straight up on this and dealt with the issue as they find it? I mean, it seems like a remarkable failure of the Pentagon in trying to assess their needs and the challenges.
GRANGE: Lou, I believe that the Pentagon and Congress need to face the fact that the military's too small for the commitments today, and it's not good enough just for Congress to say, yes, we're going to pay for another 30,000, add them immediately.
It involves years and years of payments and support of these military call-ups and families when you increase the size of the military. Personally, we should have done it years ago. We need it now. This is not a spike. It's a plateau in commitment of our armed forces around the world for some time to come.
DOBBS: Thank you very much, as always.
General David Grange.
GRANGE: My pleasure.
DOBBS: There is one body double that the Iraqi people won't mistake for the real Saddam Hussein. That's because this one is a foot high, and it is battery powered, and dances to the song "Hippy Hippy Shake." The dancing Saddam doll is a best seller in toy stores around Baghdad. Each doll is decked out with hand grenades, daggers, a walkie-talkie, binoculars, and, of course, an AK-47. That would be de riguer, one assumes. No word yet if the dancing Saddam doll will shimmy into U.S. stores this year.
Coming up next, Iraqi citizens watched their former dictator have his day in court. Professor Fouad Ajami joins me. He calls this trial of Saddam Hussein a sideshow. He suggests that Iraqis look to far more pressing issues. He's my guest next.
And ahead, saying goodbye to Hollywood. Jack Valenti signs off after a remarkable career. It is his replacement, however, that has many in Washington asking the tough questions. We'll have a report for you.
And stunning new pictures tonight from the Cassini spacecraft as it orbits Saturn.
We'll have those pictures, that story, and a great deal more coming right up.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ANNOUNCER: LOU DOBBS TONIGHT continues. Here now for more news, debate and opinion, Lou Dobbs.
DOBBS: Saddam Hussein in an Iraqi court today. The former dictator facing seven preliminary charges related to the murder of Iraqi Kurds, the invasion of Kuwait, and a number of other crimes.
My next guest, however, says the trial of Saddam Hussein is simply a sideshow. Fouad Ajami is professor of Middle Eastern studies at Johns Hopkins University and says more pressing issues face the Iraqi people.
And it's good to have you with us.
FOUAD AJAMI, JOHN HOPKINS UNIVERSITY PROFESSOR: Thank you very much, Lou.
DOBBS: Those issues are what?
AJAMI: Well, I think before we get to these issues, I think we have to celebrate what putting this man on trial really -- what it means for Iraqis. It's a signal day for Iraqis, and the discovery, of course, that comes to most people when they see men like Saddam Hussein is a small man behind these great crimes.
So great crimes were inflicted on the Iraqi people by this man and the cabal around him, and I think for the Iraqis to witness the small men, Tariq Aziz, to witness Chemical Ali frightened for his life -- I think it's a great day. So they have to get -- they will be tried, but they will not be tried in the next several months because much more urgent issues are really at stake in Iraq for now.
DOBBS: Deferring those issues for just a moment, a surprising report yesterday here from Baghdad. A very popular radio station there reporting that -- just about an even split between those Iraqis who would have Saddam Hussein executed and those who would set him free. Does that surprise you?
AJAMI: It does surprise me. I think Iraq is a divided country, but I think the numbers don't really track. I think maybe if you told me it's 80-20 that Kurds and the Shiite would like to see him skinned and the Sunni Arabs would like to spare him, that sounds more true.
These numbers are suspect to me because I think, by and large, there is tremendous consensus in the country outside the Sunni triangle on trying Saddam Hussein and holding him and his cabal for the great crimes and the great sins that had been perpetrated over three decades.
DOBBS: The issues that you see that are critical -- most critical to the Iraqi people?
AJAMI: Well, most critical, we have to defeat this insurgency. We have to defeat the jihadists. We have to make sure that people like Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, this prince of darkness who came from Jordan and came to sow death and destruction in the streets of Iraq, is defeated. We have to make sure that the Baathists are defeated. So security uppermost.
Everything else is really idle commentary at this point. We can't reconstruct Iraq, we can't put up -- we can't repair the pipelines if the insurgents will destroy it. So the defeat of the insurgency, electricity as the summer is upon us, the standing up of the security forces. And we have one of our best officers, Lieutenant General Petraeus, who's been dispatched to do this, to train the Iraqis.
These are the things that are upon us.
DOBBS: As we've talked over time, are you today more optimistic, more hopeful than previously?
AJAMI: Well, I think I remain -- this is really a roller coaster of a war. We've talked about this. This is a very, very -- the pain of this war is great, and the stakes in this war are equally great, and I think, in fact, that the American people are pressed, and they see the sacrifices and blood and torture (ph) in Iraq, and they're not sure. They really are not sure that any of this will stick on this hard soil of Iraq. So I think...
DOBBS: What do you think? Will it stick?
AJAMI: I think we don't really know. There is a kind of a noble quality. I even correspond with officers in the field, our own commanding officers there, and they have given it the best try, and still there is that great uncertainty.
Can this American project in Iraq work, and can Iraq respond to our pressure and to our inducements and to our reforms? Will there be an Iraqi nation? Is there an Iraqi nation. And can we at the end of the day leave with some measure of satisfaction that our work in Iraq was not in vain?
DOBBS: The military has done a remarkable job throughout.
AJAMI: Amazing.
DOBBS: The government itself, in terms of what we have sought as, if you will, governmental initiatives rather than that directed by the military, highly questionable. A year of abject failure in many parts of Iraq on the part of the U.S. government. How do we retrieve that time, can we, and how do we remedy it?
AJAMI: Well, I don't know. I think -- here is something. We need to get money to the Iraqi people. I mean, we have this $18 billion that we've talked about, this money that the Congress earmarked for Iraq. Now, of this $18 billion, I understand $3 billion or $4 billion had been "committed." Only $300 million to $400 million has been spent.
So we need to make sure that Iraqis see progress in their lives. But we've begun to do things right. We've begun to tell the Iraqis this is your country, it's not our country.
DOBBS: If the BBC report is accurate and confirmed and the White House eventually responds to it, the question is -- King Abdullah of Jordan sending troops is a monumental step here.
AJAMI: Well, Lou, bring me back. I want to talk about this at some point. This is -- we've seen this movie before. It was called bringing Turkish troops in. And guess what Iraqis told us. Folks, we can't use Turkish troops. The Kurds hate them.
OK. King Abdullah of Jordan would like to be a player. He would like to get paid for being a player, but the moment you talk about Jordanians going to Iraq -- these are Sunni troops, the Jordanians. Will they -- will the Shia of Iraq want them? They won't. Will the Kurds want them? They won't. This is the administration refuses to know the intimate details of the Arab world. When they talked about -- when they talked about bringing Turks in we told them, unusable. The Jordanians are they usable in Iraq, I'm not convinced.
DOBBS: You don't think then the new Iraqi government will invite King Abdullah's troops?
AJAMI: There is absolutely no chance that I can see that Jordanians would be usable. Are the Saudi usable, no. Are the Pakistanis usable, no. It's difficult to bring Muslim troops, Arab troops into Iraq and they would be accepted. You bring a Sunni soldier from Saudi Arabia, you put him in Najaf and Karbala, he sees these shrines in Najaf and Karbala as symbols of blasphemy. Is he reliable there, no.
What about the Jordanians?
The Jordanians, would like to cut themselves into the deal. Can we use them, no, but the administration is willful about this. And I think if they check with their own people in the field, they'll tell them that it's much more difficult to use Jordanians than we are now being told.
DOBBS: Professor Fouad Ajami thank you for being here. It is both good to see you and always educational to listen to you. Thank you.
That brings us to the subject of our "Poll" tonight. Do you believe Saddam Hussein should face the death penalty, yes or no?
Cast your vote at cnn.com/lou. We'll have the results for you later in the broadcast.
Let's take a look at some of "Your Thoughts" now. Many of you writing in about our poll last night in which we asked whether the United States mission in Iraq has improved the lives of average Iraqis.
Daniel Flint, of El Paso, Texas, "I would hate to see an Iraq where we the United States had not intervened and stopped the dictatorial regime of Saddam Hussein."
Elmer Birney, of Oneco, Florida, asked "Torture, rape rooms, total violation of human rights, and mass killings than conditions today."
Ernest Taylor, Bridgewater, Massachusetts, "Lou, I don't understand how we can find tens of billions of dollars to repair the infrastructure in Iraq and we can't find a few billion to upgrade the infrastructure here at home."
Gayle Stream, of Cave City, Kentucky, "Mr. Dobbs we are losing the war in Afghanistan because we can't support the people there who tried to win it. We are bogged down in Iraq and have destabilized the whole Middle East."
DOBBS: We appreciate "Your Thoughts." Send them at loudobbs@cnn.com.
The Motion Picture Association of America today announced its choice for a successor to its long-time president Jack Valenti. Former Clinton Administration, Secretary of Agriculture Dan Glickman will take on the role of chief lobbyist for the movie industry in Washington. Our Congressional correspondent Ed Henry on what he can expect on Capitol Hill.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ED HENRY, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): After nearly 40 years as Hollywood's man in Washington which made him a towering figure on both coasts, Jack Valenti is exiting the stage.
JACK VALENTI, OUTGOING MPAA PRESIDENT: I know it, a lot of you have been saying when is that old son of a (EXPLICIT DELETED) going to leave -- well, this is it. It's been a long ride. It's been a great ride. I've really never failed to wake up in the morning eager to be about my chores because I really love this movie business and all the people who work in it. HENRY: Valenti will now raise money for a non-profit that's fighting the AIDS crisis. He's turning over the motion picture industry to a fellow Democrat, former Agricultural Secretary Dan Glickman, and that has infuriated Republicans.
GROVER NORQUIST, CONSERVATIVE ACTIVIST: This is one of the most fool foolish decisions an industry has made to prior to this the election insult the president, insult Republican leadership of Congress.
HENRY: Conservatives recall that when Democrats dominated Washington, they scooped up the top lobbying jobs such as when Valenti left the Johnson White House in the mid '60s. Now that the GOP controls the White House and both chambers of Congress, Republicans believe they should get the spoils. The Motion Picture Association interviewed Democrats and Republicans. The job was first offered to Republican Congressman Billy Tauzin who turned it down. While the association eventually settled on a Democrat, Valenti said nobody should read into that.
VALENTI: This is not a partisan job. This is a nonpolitical job. This is an American job, because to preserve, protect and defend the American film here and around the world requires all members of Congress on both sides of the aisle.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HENRY: Lou, Republicans up here say they're scratching their heads over this appointment for two reason. First of all, Dan Glickman is not known for having an electric personality, something you would expect Hollywood to want in this job, and secondly as was noted in the piece, Republicans think that Glickman is a partisan Democrat, he will have a hard time working with the GOP Congress. But Dan Glickman himself pointed out at the press conference that he was a bipartisan member when he was in Congress. He was chairman of the Intelligence Committee which, in fact, is usually considered a bipartisan committee. And second of all, Dan Glickman said as ad secretary in the Clinton administration he had to negotiate a lot of trade agreements that were very difficult. And Lou, if he's still working with the Republican Congress next year after this election he's going to need all those negotiating skills, Lou.
DOBBS: Absolutely. And what is the reaction to these people, these Republicans who are concerned about a Democrat being put in place, Billy Tauzin, not exactly a liberal, having the first opportunity?
HENRY: Right. Well, Billy Tauzin was a Democrat. As you know, he switched parties in recent years, been a Republican. He was chairman of the Energy and Commerce Committee. And a lot of Democrats think that it's unethical to put too much pressure on these associations on these business groups, to hire only Republican lobbyists. They do think that it's been unfair. But Republicans say they're not going overboard, just sending a signal they want to see more Republicans getting these top jobs because they want to work with their fellow Republicans. But we'll see what happens after the election, obviously, all that can change.
Well, there is some, I think, ironic humor in this, in that our politicians in Washington want to decide who will run the lobbying organizations and, of course, the lobbyists want to decide who is working in government, so perhaps this is a balance of sorts.
Ed Henry, thanks for being here.
HENRY: Thank you.
DOBBS: Meanwhile, entertainment industry workers in this country are taking a stand against the exporting of American jobs to cheap foreign labor markets. The Film and Television Action Committee has now filed a complaint with the Commerce Department's task force on unfair trade, claiming Canada and Australia are offering unfair tax breaks to filmmakers who move production out of this country. "The Chronicles of Riddick" and "The Terminal" are only two films at least partially filmed in Canada. The group says these run -- these runway productions -- run away productions have taken away tens of thousands of jobs from Americans. The committee wants the Commerce Department to impose a new tariff on films and television shows imported into this country.
Coming up next here, the massive effort to secure the nation's borders and its ports.
Just how safe are they?
We'll find out. Homeland Security Under Secretary Asa Hutchinson is other guest.
And the remarkable mission of Cassini. The rings of Saturn from a perspective never seen before. We'll have those stunning pictures coming right up.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Amazing photographs tonight from the Cassini spacecraft. Cassini has become the first spacecraft to enter Saturn's orbit. Now it begins what will be a four-year journey around the ring planet.
Space correspondent Miles O'Brien reports from Pasadena, California.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MILES O'BRIEN, CNN SPACE CORRESPONDENT: Nearly seven years after it left Earth, Cassini, the largest, most elaborate, most expensive planetary probe ever, twice shot a gap in Saturn's rocky rings and ended up safe and sound orbiting the solar system's second largest planet. A rock the size of a marble could have taken the $3 billion craft out. The celebration came after a tense 96-minute engine firing that slowed down the gangly six ton spacecraft just enough to feel Saturn's pull.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Probably this was the longest 90 minutes that I ever spent. I never realized how long is 90 minutes until today.
O'BRIEN: As it stitched between the rings, the craft was programmed to aim its cameras right at them. The rings are made mostly of ice -- possibly the remnants of a moon that came too close to Saturn and was ripped apart. Scientists are fascinated by the rings because among other things they resemble planets in formation.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So, in a sense, it gives us a picture of how most likely the solar system might have formed, taken in miniature.
O'BRIEN: Ring scientists -- yes, there are such things -- are focusing on the distinct bands that appear to be cleared away by some sort of celestial Zamboni. It is quite likely some of these are created by previously unknown moons of Saturn.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There's a very good chance that moon count will climb in the very near future.
O'BRIEN: As interesting and beautiful as the planet may be, Saturn's moons may provide the most scientific pay dirt. The highlight could come in January when the spacecraft will send a tiny probe onto the surface of Titan, a Saturn moon that is the size of a planet. Scientists believe it has an atmosphere which mimics Earth's as it was when it was a toddler. The probe could provide a distant mirror to our own origins here.
Miles O'Brien, CNN, Pasadena, California.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: Joining me now to discuss this remarkable expedition is Charles Liu, astrophysicist at the Museum of Natural History. And Charles, it's always good to have you here, particularly to celebrate, in part, the success that's utterly remarkable.
CHARLES LIU, ASTROPHYSICIST, MUSEUM OF NATURAL HISTORY: Absolutely. Decades in the making -- literally, from planning to actual arrival. It's so exciting to see this come to fruition.
DOBBS: And to see that imagery of the rings around Saturn, as Miles O'Brien reported, we're going to be also gaining far more knowledge about the 31 moons -- satellites -- if that's a correct count.
LIU: For now.
DOBBS: For now. Tell us what you think -- well, what, first of all, is the reaction amongst the people at JPL -- Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Pasadena -- and NASA and everyone associated with the program.
LIU: Well, my planetary colleagues are just thrilled. They are telling me that this is one of the most important changes or improvements in our understanding of the entire solar system that's coming a long, long time. These next four years are the primary mission, and hopefully a few more years of extended mission, will really reveal to us the completely unexplored area of the solar system to date.
DOBBS: As you look at these images -- and to think that it took seven years, basically, for this Cassini spacecraft...
LIU: That's right.
DOBBS: ...a U.S./European joint venture -- to reach Saturn. And to be able to do this, I -- if people are not overwhelmed by this -- that simple amazing feat, it's just -- it's incredible.
LIU: I absolutely agree. It's been a marvel of engineering, of basic science, of technology development and now of discovery.
DOBBS: Discovery. Let's talk about a few things we need to discover about Saturn. What in the world are those rings made out of?
LIU: That's a great question. We're pretty sure at this point that these rings are made out of millions and millions of particles -- anything from the size of a pea to the size of a large house. And that's basically why everyone was so nervous last night as Cassini was passing through gaps in those rings -- any one stray piece could have destroyed and ended the mission.
But those little moons, aside from being perhaps proto-planetary things...
DOBBS: Right.
LIU: ...as Miles discussed, will tell us how things move in orbit in complex systems in the solar system.
DOBBS: And how do we end up with those gaps in those rings?
LIU: Yes, exactly. We think that some of those gaps are caused by small moons that actually clear out those spaces and, in the process of clearing them out, also hold the rings stable for hundreds of millions of years, instead of letting those pieces disintegrate.
The more we learn about the rings, the more we learn about how solar system objects move and potentially say things like asteroids that might hit the Earth, perhaps we'll be able to understand how they move, too, so we can prevent say civilization ending, perhaps.
DOBBS: Well, that would be, I think, amongst the most noble of causes. And we, obviously, wish you and all of the planetary scientists and everyone associated all the best of luck in that enterprise and what will be a four-year tutorial on Saturn and its environments.
Charles Liu, as always, thanks for being here.
LIU: A pleasure. Thanks for having me.
DOBBS: And tonight's thought is on Saturn -- you're going to like this, Charles.
LIU: OK.
DOBBS: "The scientific theory I like best is that the rings of Saturn are composed entirely of lost airline luggage." Those are the words of none other than Mark Russell, who is one of my favorite comedians.
When we continue, the U.S. General Accounting Office casts doubts on the security of our nation's ports. We'll be talking with the Undersecretary of Homeland Security, Asa Hutchinson, about border security, port security, national security -- next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Today is the deadline for the nation's 361 major ports to meet new security guidelines. The United Nations International Maritime Organization and the Department of Homeland Security increased security standards for seaports and ships all around the world, trying to prevent terrorist attacks.
The Coast Guard today barred five ships from entering U.S. ports. This comes just days after a Congressional report suggested as many as seven percent of American ports would not meet the security deadline.
Joining me now is Asa Hutchinson, Homeland Security Under Secretary for Border and Transportation Security. Mr. Secretary, good to have you here.
ASA HUTCHINSON, UNDERSECRETARY FOR BORDER AND TRANSPORTATION SECURITY: Good to be with you.
DOBBS: This deadline, is it -- in your judgment, is it -- has it been met? Are you satisfied with where we are?
HUTCHINSON: Well, I think it's a very good-news story, first of all, that we had domestic standards, followed by the international standards -- which is the first time in history -- implemented today, July 1. We believe that all of the plans have been submitted; they have been evaluated.
Now, we have to measure the implementation of those plans -- the new security measures at the ports and how they are in compliance with their own security plans. But this has been a very good day. As you pointed out, there were a few ships that were not allowed to come in because they were not in compliance.
So, we have the enforcement capability that were put in place.
DOBBS: They -- the level of security, now more than -- as we approach three years after September 11, there are people who wonder why in the world has it taken us so long. And one understands the bureaucratic issues involved in Washington in managing a huge department such as yours -- that of the entire Department of Homeland Security.
But my goodness, how long is it going to take before we have full security at our ports, full security at our borders? HUTCHINSON: Well, I think that you put it in perspective. First of all, to move toward security of our ports, we can protect our own ports -- and we're doing that. But you also have to recognize the international shipping industry and the international ports. And our security would not be sufficient if we do not bring those along.
And in two-and-a-half years to set international standards to bring the investment of the international shipping companies -- I talked to one today that have 2,300 employees in the shipping company that are involved in security and have gone through security training. This is an extraordinary step forward.
So, you combine what we're doing overseas for the inspection of the containers coming toward the United States with the port security standards that are in place, the private investment, I think it's a pretty good combination of success.
DOBBS: I've heard more than one or two people, very knowledgeable on national security -- and I won't use their names, because they were speaking not for publication -- saying that we need to do far more, that in point of fact we are still putting our commercial interests ahead of our security interests, whether we are talking about the borders or the ports. And that we need to be far more constrained. How do you react to that?
HUTCHINSON: Well, I think it's wrong. I think, first of all, we don't put anything below the high standard of security that is so critical to our nation. At the same time, we not to shut down our borders and our ports, we're to make sure we protect our commerce as well. But I think that whenever you look at 300 years of history of developing our ports without security in mind, in 2 and a half years you make tremendous progress, but certainly you're going to have some vulnerabilities that are going to remain for some time.
We have done, though, with these new assessments as a good (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
DOBBS: And a tough job. I think everyone acknowledges that. And in your job, you have to spend some sleepless nights knowing that it only takes 1 mistake across all of our borders and across our ports for you to be a failure at your job. How do you handle that kind of pressure?
HUTCHINSON: Well, you worry about not fixing those things that we can fix and we, you know, finding the vulnerabilities, the threats that we know that the terrorists are trying to exploit and fixing them. So, my job is to worry.
And I think that the 180,000 men and women are working very hard at it. And I think we're having progress every day.
DOBBS: Let me ask you a couple of questions about the border. T.J. Bonner, president of the National Border Control Council, you know, saying basically that border patrol agents being ordered, effectively, not to apprehend illegal aliens crossing our border, to stand their ground and to simply not be permitted to apprehend them. Why would such a policy be permitted?
HUTCHINSON: Well, that statement is totally wrong. Whenever you look at our Arizona Border Control Initiative, we've deployed hundreds of new border patrol agents. We're apprehending 16,000 illegal aliens per week trying to come across this area of the border. And so to say that we're not encouraging the enforcement and protection of our borders is totally wrong.
We've added technology, including unmanned aerial vehicles that we're testing this week, as well as new personnel.
DOBBS: How many people do you think are crossing the border illegally every year? Southern border, the northern border?
HUTCHINSON: We're apprehending more than a million per year. As to what percent of those we are getting, I think it's a very high percent. But I think that's undetermined. I don't know that you could really speculate on that.
DOBBS: A lot of people do, as you know. Fifty members of Congress, including the House Majority Leader Tom Delay sent you a letter rather recently on June 24 talking about the mobile patrol groups. Why isn't that pilot project being more broadly implemented?
HUTCHINSON: Well, the mobile patrol groups of the Border Patrol do interior checkpoints. They also work in the transportation hubs responding to intelligence, very appropriate. We support them tremendously.
But we have, in Homeland Security, a number of different groups that is involved in interior enforcement, worksite enforcement in which we're almost doubling the funding for that program. We have detention and removal teams, we have fugitive ops teams. So it's a matter of coordinating among those.
The Border Patrol, when you look at their responsibility, we try to focus on the nexus to the border, that's why we're focusing on the Arizona Border Control Initiative.
DOBBS: Asa Hutchinson, we thank you very much for being with us here.
HUTCHINSON: Thank you, Lou.
DOBBS: Coming up next, oil prices rise sharply today. More good news, the Saudi Arabian government has something to say about that. Christine Romans will have the story in just a moment. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Stocks today lower. The Dow down more than a 100 points, the NASDAQ fell more than 32, the S&P down nearly 12. As stocks fell, oil prices rose. Christine Romans is here with what was a bad news day.
CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN FINANCIAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes. Lou, oil prices up almost 5 percent today after the Saudis say prices have fallen enough recently and they're now fair. Bear in mind, they're still $10 above OPEC's own $22 to $28 desired band. Energy secretary Spencer Abraham says, if OPEC is going to go to the trouble to set a price target, it should at least try to meet it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SPENCER ABRAHAM, ENERGY SECRETARY: We've called upon the producers to make sure they don't take action that will undermine economic growth, either ours or the rest of the world.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ROMANS: Speaking of the rest of the world, Merrill Lynch tonight says China is building its own strategic oil reserve, and being pretty elusive about the details. That's straining world supplies, Merrill says, and keeping prices high.
Also today, Lou, disappointing jobless claims: For the second week, more people lined up for unemployment benefits. Six weeks in a row now, above 350,000. That's going in the wrong direction, and raised worries about tomorrow's jobs report.
And Lou, General Motors sales fell 15 percent in June. Wal-Mart and Target, remember they also had softer than expected sales, in combination, it might be indicative of a weaker consumer here.
DOBBS: Let's hope not. Christine thanks. Christine Romans.
Still ahead here, we'll have our poll results. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: The results of tonight's poll: 57 percent of you say Saddam Hussein should face the death penalty, 43 percent say you do not.
Please join us tomorrow night. Our special report on the handover of power in Iraq. Tomorrow, the role for international troops.
Also tomorrow, 2 of this country's leading journalists join us to discuss Iraq, the economic recovery and the election.
And in "Heroes" we'll have the story of a courageous young man who risked his life to save his fellow soldiers. Please be with us.
For all of us here, good night from New York. "ANDERSON COOPER 360" is next.
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