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Lou Dobbs Tonight
Bush Strongly Defends Decision to Go to War With Iraq; Kerry Gets Bounce in Poll From Edwards Pick
Aired July 12, 2004 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
KITTY PILGRIM, GUEST HOST: Tonight, President Bush answers his critics on Iraq with an uncompromising defense of the war against Saddam Hussein.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Although we have not found stockpiles of weapons of mass destruction, we were right to go into Iraq.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PILGRIM: Tonight, I will talk with the former U.S. chief weapons inspector David Kay about the president's speech and the calls for a massive shakeup in our intelligence community.
Senator Kerry enjoys a bounce in the opinion polls after choosing Senator Edwards as his running mate. I will be joined by the Washington bureau chief of "TIME" magazine, Michael Duffy.
In Broken Borders, police in some of this country's biggest cities are not allowed to arrest illegal aliens.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Enforcing immigration laws is a vital tool to get felons and murderers and gang bangers off the streets.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PILGRIM: The author of "Unguarded Gates," Otis Graham, says the federal government must restrict legal and illegal immigration into this country. Otis Graham is my guest tonight.
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT for Monday, July 12. Here now for an hour of news, debate and opinion, sitting in for Lou Dobbs who's on vacation, Kitty Pilgrim.
PILGRIM: Good evening.
President Bush today strongly defended his decision to go to war in Iraq. The president insisted the war was necessary, despite the U.S. failure to find weapons of mass destruction. The president's speech comes just days after a Senate panel said the intelligence used to justify the war was flawed.
White House Correspondent Dana Bash reports -- Dana.
DANA BASH, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Kitty, it was hard to miss the message that the president was trying to send today because he was in his refrain. Time and time again, he said Americans are safer now than they were three years ago when the U.S. was attacked, and he cited relationships that he's forged and wars that he has waged in order, he said, to keep America safe. And because of that, he said, he is standing by his decision to invade Iraq, weapons of mass destruction or not.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BUSH: Thank you all very much.
Although we have not found stockpiles of weapons of mass destruction, we were right to go into Iraq. We removed a declared enemy of America who had the capability of producing weapons of mass murder and could have passed that capability to terrorists bent on acquiring them. In the world after September the 11th, that was a risk we could not afford to take.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BASH: And the backdrop of Mr. Bush's speech was a government facility in Tennessee where Libya's nuclear weapons and nuclear materials, I should say, sit now, and the president made the case that Moammar Gadhafi gave them up because he saw what the U.S. did to Saddam Hussein.
Now some proliferation experts, some who had been in government for some time, said that this actually had been in the works for some time, and perhaps the genesis was more about the bombing of Pan Am 103 and a deal that Mr. Gadhafi was trying to make much more than the invasion of Iraq.
But, regardless, Kitty, if you look at a recent CNN/"USA Today"/Gallup poll, you'll see that this case that Americans are safer because of Iraq might be hard for the president to make. When asked if the war with Iraq made the U.S. safer from terrorism, 37 percent only said yes, and that is --- and 55 percent said no, and that is really a reversal from just six months ago.
So you see that Americans are feeling less safe, and top advisers are making this push. The president was out today, his national security adviser out today, trying to revive an issue that they thought would be a really easy sell on the campaign trail, and that is Mr. Bush's fight against terrorism.
And I should also mention that John Kerry today said that he thinks that the president should do more than give speeches. He cited the other hot spots around the world like North Korea that are still quite an issue -- Kitty.
PILGRIM: All right. Thanks very much.
Dana Bash. A short time ago here on CNN, National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice also defended the war in Iraq and the president's use of intelligence.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CONDOLEEZZA RICE, NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: We looked at it, the Congress looked at it, the Security Council of the United Nations looked at it, intelligence services around the world looked at and came to the same conclusion, which was that this was someone who had had weapons of mass destruction, had used them in the past. No one knew exactly how far along he was, but nobody was willing to trust the word -- as the president said today, to trust the word of a madman.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PILGRIM: Now Rice said Saddam Hussein clearly had the intent and the capability to pursue weapons of mass destruction.
Senator Kerry today rejected the president's claim that the United States is safer than it was on September 10, 2001. Kerry, speaking at a dedication for a September 11 memorial in Boston, disputed President Bush's claim that his policies have made America safer.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. JOHN F. KERRY (D-MA), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I happen to believe that the commander in chief has to be able to look into the eyes of a parent, a family, brothers, sisters, grandparents, and you better be able to say to them I tried to do everything in my power to avoid the loss of your son and daughter, but the threat to our nation was such that we had no choice. I believe that value, that trust was broken in these past years.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PILGRIM: Meanwhile, Senator John Edwards today received a rousing welcome on his first visit to campaign headquarters in Washington. Edwards was scheduled to meet with advisers before beginning a solo campaign trip on Wednesday.
And, as for President Bush tonight, new tensions with the leadership of the NAACP. Chairman Julian Bond called for "regime change" in this country, charging that the Republican Party is "playing the race card in election after election."
Last week, the White House declined a speaking invitation from the NAACP citing "hostile political rhetoric from the group's leaders." President Bush is the first president since the 1930s not to address the NAACP.
A new opinion poll today gives Senator John Kerry a 4-point lead over President Bush. Senior political Analyst Bill Schneider reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) WILLIAM SCHNEIDER, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: How big a bounce? For that, a poll of polls. Before, the race was a dead heat in the June polls. Then last Tuesday...
KERRY: I am pleased to announce that with your help the next vice president of the United States of America will be Senator John Edwards from North Carolina.
SCHNEIDER: And after, Kerry-Edwards leads Bush-Cheney by an average of 50 percent to 46 percent. Looks like Kerry got a 3-point bounce.
SEN. EDWARD KENNEDY (D), MASSACHUSETTS: Kerry-Edwards. It's got a winning ring to it.
SCHNEIDER: Maybe. The Democrats' lead is not statistically significant in any single poll, but the fact that Kerry and Edwards are ahead in four polls suggests there was a bounce. Who bounced?
Listen to what they're saying about Edwards.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He's being described today as charming, engaging, a nimble campaigner, a populist and even sexy.
SCHNEIDER: Well, women seem to be impressed. The Democratic ticket got a 4-point bounce among women, just 1 point among men.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: John Edwards is a fantastic addition to this ticket.
SCHNEIDER: Well, young people certainly think so. The Democratic ticket gained a whopping 10 points among voters under 50. The Democrats actually lost ground among older voters. Maybe they're listening to the president.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How does he stack up against Dick Cheney?
BUSH: Dick Cheney can be president.
SCHNEIDER: Is John Edwards' accent turning southern voters on? No sign of a bump for the Democrats in the South voters. Edwards advertises his small town origins, and, sure enough, the Democrats seem to have picked up support among rural voters. Republicans say Edwards adds geographical, but not philosophical balance to the Democratic ticket.
SEN. BILL FRIST (R), MAJORITY LEADER: There's no ideological balance. He's the fourth most liberal person to the left of Senator Kennedy and to the left of Senator Clinton.
SCHNEIDER: Sure enough, conservatives are not impressed. No bounce on the right, but there was on the left -- and in the middle where the swing voters are.
(END VIDEOTAPE) SCHNEIDER: By naming Edwards to the ticket early, Democrats are looking for a month-long bounce, right through the Democratic convention. And then in August, the Republicans will get the ball -- Kitty.
PILGRIM: All right. Thanks very much.
Bill Schneider.
Turning overseas, the U.S. Marine who was missing in Iraq has told military investigators he was abducted from his base in Fallujah. Corporal Wassef Hassoun is now at a military hospital in Landstuhl, Germany.
Senior Pentagon Correspondent Jamie McIntyre reports -- Jamie.
JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN SENIOR PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Well, Kitty, Pentagon sources and military sources are telling CNN that Corporal Hassoun has told initially at least his interrogators that he was, in fact, abducted from the base in Fallujah where he disappeared on July 19 and insists that the hostage video that shows him apparently being under the threat of beheading by armed captors was genuine.
But the official interrogation really hasn't started at this point. He's still in part of what's called the repatriation process, where he is -- his health is being assessed, and we're told that he's in good health and speaking well and should be able to be ready for that full debriefing sometime soon.
But military sources also say that when he disappeared from his base in Fallujah that there was no evidence at the time that he was abducted. In fact, there was some evidence suggesting that he left voluntarily and was heading for Lebanon. He still has to explain how he got from Iraq to Lebanon, across a 500-mile stretch of Syria without -- apparently without -- on his own. That's a journey that the military believes would have required some assistance.
And, of course, he again insisting that he was, in fact, abducted, something that the -- will have to play out over the next couple of days. The Pentagon again is urging that no one jump to any conclusion. They insist that there's an investigation under way, and it will determine the facts -- Kitty.
PILGRIM: Jamie, one other point. There's news tonight that the Philippines may be about to withdraw its troops from Iraq earlier than scheduled because one of its citizens is being held hostage. What can you tell us about that?
MCINTYRE: Well, that conclusion coming from a statement that Ova Philippine official has made to the Arabic news service Al Jazerra. The Pentagon at this point is not able to confirm that there's been any decision by the Philippine government to withdraw their troops early. They were scheduled to leave August 20. The group holding the Philippine hostage wants them to withdraw them by July 20.
But the Pentagon has made it clear and Defense Secretary Rumsfeld has made it clear on numerous occasions that they believe it's a mistake for any country to give into the demands of terrorists. It has applauded in the past the actions of South Korea and Japan, two countries who have resisted similar calls in the past. Defense Secretary Rumsfeld just last month made the case that giving into the hostages is what he called a dead-end road that just results in more incidents of terrorism -- Kitty.
PILGRIM: All right. Thanks very much.
Jamie McIntyre.
In Iraq today, the interim president vowed to take tough action against any insurgents who refuse to stop their attacks. The Iraqi government is building up an elite security force to fight the insurgents, but, so far, the Iraqi army only plans to have about 2,000 soldiers in the new force.
Michael Holmes reports from Baghdad.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MICHAEL HOLMES, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Coalition forces coming under fire on patrol is routine. These troops, however, are not Americans. They are Iraqi, all of them, not a single American in sight.
(on camera): This is an area where just a few weeks ago U.S. troops on patrol faced what one officer said was rocks by day, bullets, bombs and RPGs by night. But, in the two weeks that these Iraqi soldiers have been patrolling the same area, not a single shot has been fired.
(voice-over): What is happening in what is still considered a highly dangerous suburb is waves, handshakes, water being offered. One American later said no one offered us water. This is an army unit which literally speaks the same language as the locals. Their trainers see the value.
MAJ. DAVID LANE, U.S. MARINE CORPS: They understand the people, they understand the insinuations, they understand the cultural perspective, and, if they need to get a different answer, if they need more information, they know to ask for that information whereas we may stop short.
HOLMES: It's called the Iraqi Intervention Force 2nd Battalion, trained in urban combat, counterinsurgency and crucial intelligence gathering. Their American trainers call them the vanguard, the elite of the Iraqi army.
"We are the Army of Iraq," says this veteran. "We are proud of what we do."
Their American instructors say this unit has probably already saved lives. Residents here alerted an IIF patrol to a roadside bomb, later destroyed in a controlled explosion.
(on camera): Would you imagine coalition forces would have been given that information?
LANE: I could say maybe, but I'll tell you what, for sure, yes, the Iraqis got that information. That's very comforting because, you know, if a coalition humvee had been driving by and it would have gone off, it would have potentially killed somebody.
HOLMES: These days, Lieutenant Colonel Muhammad al Ali Hussein runs the show. He tells us, "Of course, the people were very happy to see us. They showed cooperation by informing about the bad people."
Some of the colonel's men have already found weapons caches, arrested high-level suspects and engaged in gun battles.
LANE: They're willing to return fire when engaged, and they have been engaged, and they have returned fire.
HOLMES (on camera): So these are the real deal?
LANE: No doubt.
HOLMES (voice-over): Two more IIF battalions are about to finish training and hit the streets, a total of 2,000 men. Well equipped and well armed, they will have the job of stamping out Iraq's insurgents. Major Lane is confident they're up to the task.
Michael Holmes, CNN, Baghdad.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: Still to come, false intelligence, the case for war and the future of our intelligence community. Former U.S. chief weapons inspector David Kay is my guest.
One of the most outspoken critics of U.S. foreign policy restores diplomatic relations with Iraq. The motive may have more to do with hard cash than simple diplomacy.
And the Edwards effect. Will the Kerry-Edwards ticket enjoy a lasting bounce from Senator John Edwards? I will be joined by "TIME" magazine's Washington bureau chief Michael Duffy.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PILGRIM: My next guest determined long before the Senate Intelligence Committee that U.S. pre-war intelligence in Iraq was flawed. Former weapons inspector David Kay famously told the Senate Armed Services Committee earlier this year, "We were all wrong." Kay served as chief weapons inspectors in Iraq for both the United Nations and the United States, and he joins me now from Washington.
And thanks very much for joining us, Mr. Kay.
DAVID KAY, FORMER WEAPONS INSPECTOR: Happy to be with you.
PILGRIM: Anything in the Senate intelligence report that was a surprise to you? And I ask you this because you seem to know the most about this entire subject, so only you would know what wasn't there before.
KAY: Well, I think the real surprise is that the report lays out a convincing but balanced case, and it was supported by all 15 members, Republicans and Democrats. It's a harsh report, which is unusual for oversight committees, but it also is remarkable in that it gets to fundamental causes. It's not the usual congressional report that says name a new DCI, shuffle the chairs on the "Titanic." It speaks of fundamental flaws in our intelligence system that go far beyond Iraq.
PILGRIM: Yes. What is striking is how bipartisan it is. And the report was very, very critical of the CIA, talking about broken corporate culture and poor management. Do you think they were overly harsh about the CIA?
KAY: No, I don't think they were because, in fact, you don't get a major disaster like this. And, remember, it's only the latest. The World Trade Center, 9/11, subject of a report in another week and a half or so. The Cole bombing, the embassy bombings, the missed Indian-Pakistani nuclear tests. So there had to be something fundamental, and I think it is remarkable that they put the effort in to understand that and then spoke quite plainly and bluntly about the causes.
PILGRIM: You know, we've been -- some time has passed from when you said we were all wrong. Do you still hold to that, and is there anything in this report that backs that statement up even more?
KAY: I certainly do hold to it. I noticed in your earlier segment with the president today in Oak Ridge, the president has come to the conclusion there are no stockpiles of weapons of mass destruction. We were all wrong, or almost all of us were wrong about that, what version you prefer. I think the support is in the report itself for that position, and I'm happy to see that the administration is now acknowledging that.
PILGRIM: Let's talk about Oak Ridge, and it's interesting because the president claimed that U.S. Successes in Iraq actually gave us some movement on Libya. Do you agree with that?
KAY: Well, you know, I'm certainly not the person who's going to be willing to go inside Gadhafi's head and say what he was really thinking. I'm not sure anyone is capable of doing that. I think Iraq probably played some part, but I think a larger part is Libya had been denied participation -- economic, political -- in the international community and, I think, finally got worn down by that.
I think it also -- I would argue Afghanistan was far more important than Iraq in terms of Libya. Afghanistan was the war on terrorism, and I think Gadhafi understood that. He was getting no gain from seeking nuclear weapons and not actually getting too close to even getting nuclear weapons and decided to cash in and play a different game.
PILGRIM: Let's move to another country, one in the axis of evil, Iran. And the secretary general said they would "not hold negotiations with the country which adopts a bullying attitude towards others." This would seem to be the exact flip argument to the Libya -- the success in Libya was attributable to Iraq, then Iran saying perhaps they won't negotiate with us because of that. What do you think of -- or do you think this is a neutral situation, that it is what it is, that Iran is saying what it needs to say?
KAY: Well, Iran is not neutral in the sense of being unimportant. It is of great importance, and many would have argued that Iran was probably more important than Iraq. It has a very active weapons program. There's no doubt about that. But what the Iranians are doing is -- unfortunately, you can see it in the report itself and the comments made at the report. We've lost our credibility to warn about other crises.
The Iranians are taking an effective political strategy to say, look, the Americans bully. They're bullying just like they did at Iraq. They were wrong there. They're wrong about us. The North Koreans have said essentially the same thing in the last three months, as have the Chinese about our argument about the North Korean nuclear program. For at least a generation, we're going to have the problem of lacking credibility behind our intelligence warnings.
PILGRIM: And yet we have one of the most potentially dangerous situations shaping up, North Korea. What are your thoughts on that?
KAY: I think North Korea is the most dangerous situation simply because no one knows what's going on in a hermit kingdom, and Kim Il Sung is, I think, a complete mystery to everyone in the intelligence community, and yet he's very -- he has the nuclear capability. I think all would argue. His military forces are poised less than 30 miles from central Seoul, highly dangerous.
PILGRIM: All right. David Kay, thanks very much for joining us this evening.
KAY: Happy to be with you.
PILGRIM: The French government has been a consistent and vocal critic of the U.S. policy in Iraq, but, today, France and Iraq reestablished diplomatic relations after 13 years. Now critics say the move is designed to ensure French companies can win lucrative reconstruction projects in Iraq.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM (voice-over): Today, Iraq's foreign minister met with his European Union counterparts in Brussels. On his agenda was rebuilding his country; on theirs, protecting their interests.
MICHEL BARNIER, FRENCH FOREIGN MINISTER (through translator): What has been expressed during this lunch was a common will to participate in the political and economic reconstruction of Iraq.
PILGRIM: France has longstanding interests in Iraq. Iraq owes France approximately $3 billion dating back to Saddam Hussein's regime. Saddam had signed off on tens of millions of dollars in oil development and exploration deals with France, Russia and China, contracts that are now in question. Under Saddam Hussein, Iraq bought its nuclear reactor from France, which he then tried to convert into a nuclear weapons program. But French relations with Iraq soured during the first Persian Gulf War, and diplomatic ties were cut until today.
BERNARD BAJOLET, FRENCH AMBASSADOR TO IRAQ (through translator): Our national colors are flying once again above the French embassy building for the first time in 13 years.
PILGRIM: France has been conspicuously absent from any participation in Iraq's current rebuilding. France opposed the U.S.- led invasion of Iraq last year. It also turned down requests for military help against insurgents that could destabilize the current interim government. And last month, French President Jacques Chirac came out strongly against a NATO role in Iraq.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: The European union has pledged to spend more than $370 million in Iraq for humanitarian and reconstruction aid. That's a pittance compared to the benefits it might gain once Iraq is open for business.
Here's an interesting story. Former Chicago Bears coach Mike Ditka may be suiting up for another career, this time as a politician. Ditka today did not deny the possibility that he may run for the Republican Senate seat in Illinois. Now, some Republicans are hoping the former Super Bowl winning coach will take on Democrat Barack Obama, and candidate Jack Ryan won the Republican primary but backed out of the race after embarrassing sexual allegations emerged from his divorce records.
Still ahead here tonight, the newest star of professional politics, Senator John Edwards. "TIME" magazine's Michael Duffy has just written a new profile of the lawyer turned politician. He will be our guest next.
Plus, former Enron CEO Ken Lay speaks out about his indictment on criminal charges. He says he does accept some of the responsibility for Enron's collapse.
And our Broken Borders series. Millions of illegal aliens have crossed the border into this country, but police departments in some of the nation's largest cities are prevented by law to do anything about it.
That and much more still ahead here tonight.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ANNOUNCER: LOU DOBBS TONIGHT continues. Sitting in for Lou Dobbs, Kitty Pilgrim.
PILGRIM: Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon today launched a dramatic new initiative to stay in power and revive his controversial plan to withdraw from Gaza. Sharon asked the Labor Party leader Shimon Perez to form a national unity government.
Alessio Vinci reports from Jerusalem.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ALESSIO VINCI, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It was an unusual breakfast invitation, Prime Minister Ariel Sharon asking the 80-year- old opposition leader Shimon Perez to join a unity government as soon as possible, necessary to strengthen Sharon's shaky coalition after the recent departure of right-wing partners who refused to back his withdrawal plan from Gaza and portions of the West Bank. The invitation came with a warning to his own Likud Party members who also disapprove of Sharon's plan: support the current government or widen the coalition.
ARIEL SHARON, ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER (through translator): I don't think I ever told you before if you don't want either of them, we will have to go to elections. There will be no choices.
VINCI: Perez seems intent on coming to the aid of Sharon for the explicit purposes of giving him support to start the withdrawal plan. However, he has set his own conditions. He wants clarification about its timetable and changes in current economic and social reform policies.
SHIMON PERES, ISRAELI LABOR PARTY LEADER: A government that will implement the disengagement from Gaza and the demolition of some of our settlements there. I must say that as far as terror is concerned, our supreme consideration is the process of peace, the continuation of it, the withdrawal from Gaza, then (UNINTELLIGIBLE) settlements there. And this will remain our overriding consideration.
VINCI (on camera): The coalition is not a done deal yet -- far from it. Labor is expected to demand a series of government portfolios Sharon may not be able to deliver, without losing significant support from within his own political party.
Alessio Vinci, CNN, Jerusalem.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: Turning now to politics in this country, the new Kerry- Edwards ticket made the cover of both "Newsweek" and "TIME" magazine this week. And my next guest wrote the cover story for "TIME" magazine on vice presidential candidate, Senator John Edwards.
And Michael Duffy is the Washington Bureau Chief for "TIME." He joins me from Washington. Nice to see you, Michael.
MICHAEL DUFFY, "TIME" MAGAZINE: Hi, Kitty.
PILGRIM: Let's talk about the latest poll. New CNN poll: Kerry, four-point lead. Is it the Edwards effect, do you think?
DUFFY: Well, sure. I think all the polls in the last week since the announcement have shown a slight bump for the ticket, somewhere between three and four points. Our own poll showed that, and so did CNN's. And that's part of a sort of predictable pattern.
But I'm not sure that they can get a whole lot more out of this pick at a time when the nation is so closely divided politically. Probably four to five was all they were going to get, and they seemed to have gotten it.
PILGRIM: Michael, you wrote the cover story, as we just said. And we'd like a little of the inside dish. I understand you interviewed Edwards' mother...
DUFFY: Yes.
PILGRIM: ... and she says, "People always underestimate my son." What can you tell us about that?
DUFFY: Well, she was very outspoken about the fact that neither she nor her husband Wallace ever had a chance for a college education. They were both mill workers. They sort of moved from town to town when they were young, in company towns, sometimes living in company housing.
There's a real -- there's a piece of the log cabin myth here that often isn't true with politicians but kind of is with John Edwards, even though he would grow up and eventually be quite wealthy.
And she said that one of the things they really wanted their kids to do was go to college, and she had no expectation that they would. But then, at every point in his career, we discovered, he exceeded expectations. Now, he went to college. He went to law school. He took all sorts of surprising jumps and even some risks.
You know, if he were a hearts player, Kitty, this is a person who would try to shoot the moon on almost every hand. He's a very -- he's willing to take risks, both in his life, in his political career, and also in his legal career. He was very much willing to not settle for cases, go to the jury and ask for more, when he was a trial lawyer, than a lot of local lawyers thought at the time. And he really transformed the North Carolina plaintiff's bar as a consequence.
So, he's a really unusual person and has, of course, come to this point a lot sooner than a lot of people would have expected.
PILGRIM: There's an interesting story about Kilimanjaro and how he attempted to climb it with pretty little preparation and brand new boots and a fear of heights.
DUFFY: Yes, he -- one day he just decided he and his son were going to climb Mount Kilimanjaro. That's a 19,000-foot peak in Africa. He knocked off work, went into a sporting goods store, said, "I'd like to buy some boots." They said, "For what?" He said, "I'm going to climb Mount Kilimanjaro in a couple of days." The staff was horrified -- I mean, really horrified that he was going to do this with almost no preparation. It's almost dangerous; in fact, it probably was.
And a few days later, there he was climbing Kilimanjaro. And at 16,000 feet, he woke up and he realized he had altitude sickness. He'd literally come too far, too fast. Now, to us, that was a great metaphor for his year.
But then, it turns out after he sent part of his party up to finally finish the hike, as they were coming down, Edwards was forcing himself up the trail by himself. And he eventually made it, too. So, it has allegorical power now, that story, and it happens to also be true.
PILGRIM: A lot of story about the drive to win.
You know, both Kerry and Edwards and President Bush are courting the Latino vote. In fact, Kerry is spending a million dollars on Spanish-language ads, and I believe we have some poll numbers. Yes, we do: 57% for Kerry; 38% for Bush.
How do you think this will play out? What's your insight on that?
DUFFY: The reason they're spending the ads money on Hispanic ads at this moment is that Kerry is under performing among Hispanics a little bit. Other Democratic presidential candidates have gotten 60% or more. Kerry needs to get his numbers up a little bit in order to hold that amount of voters he needs to win.
But what's interesting to me is that he's spending that money in states where typically Democrats haven't had a chance -- you know, Colorado, Nevada, Arizona, North Carolina. It suggests to me that they're going after voters in -- Hispanic voters in states where it's really been the Republicans' turf for the last cycle or two.
So, that suggests to me that they not only need to get their numbers up, but they're playing broadly for a lot of different states that Democrats typically haven't tried to contend in. So, that's, I think, another sign of willingness to throw the long ball here.
PILGRIM: Michael, we're almost out of time, but I wanted to ask you: The Cuban-American vote, very big in Florida -- which, of course, is a great battleground state. And President Bush got 82% of the Cuban-American vote last time. New polls show 60% now support Bush.
How do you think that will play out?
DUFFY: Well, he's taken some policy stands vis-a-vis Cuba -- and not just trade, but travel, to Cuba that have angered some of the Cuban-Americans.
It's also true that the nature of the Hispanic vote in Florida is changing; it's not as Cuban-centric as it used to be -- many more Mexicans, many more Puerto Ricans. And so, the message can't be so Cuba oriented for either party. They have to work Hispanics in a completely different way now. And I think we'll see that, also.
But that state, also, too close to call.
PILGRIM: All right. Thanks for your insights -- Michael Duffy.
DUFFY: OK, Kitty.
PILGRIM: Thank you.
Former Enron CEO Ken Lay is again speaking out about the 11-count criminal indictment against him. Lay is accused of securities fraud, bank fraud, and other charges related to Enron's collapse. Now, Lay denies the charges, but he told CNN's Larry King that he does accept some blame for Enron's demise.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LARRY KING, HOST, "LARRY KING LIVE": The Truman Doctrine apply, "The buck stops here." In other words, if something happens in the company, knowledge or non-knowledge shouldn't be an issue, you have to take the fall.
KENNETH LAY, FMR. ENRON CEO: Well, the buck stops here from this standpoint, Larry. And I've said I take responsibility for what happened at Enron, both good and bad, but I cannot take responsibility for criminal conduct that I was unaware of.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PILGRIM: Now, you can watch the full interview with former Enron CEO Ken Lay later tonight on "LARRY KING LIVE," and that is here on CNN.
Meanwhile, the second Enron executive to go to jail was taken into custody today. Former Enron Assistant Treasurer Lea Fastow will serve a one-year sentence, and she pleaded guilty to filing a false tax return related to her husband, former Enron CFO, Andrew Fastow's finances. Now, Andrew Fastow also pleaded guilty and faces a 10-year prison sentence.
Still to come: Police in major cities are forbidden by law to arrest illegal aliens. We'll have that special report.
And Otis Graham, the author of the book "Unguarded Gates: The History of American's Immigration Crisis, " will join us.
And wildfires are still burning in Miami; hundreds of acres already destroyed. We'll have that story.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PILGRIM: In our special report, "Broken Borders," this week, the growing immigration crisis in this country. As many as 12 million illegal aliens are living in the United States. But in some cities, police are powerless to do anything about the illegal population. In many cases, the law protects illegal aliens from being arrested because of their immigration status.
Casey Wian reports from Los Angeles.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): For 25 years, the city of Los Angeles has put out the welcome mat for illegal aliens. It's called Special Order 40. It prohibits LAPD officers from arresting illegal aliens for violating federal immigration laws and even for trying to find out if a criminal suspect is an illegal alien. It also prevents cops from turning illegal aliens over to federal immigration authorities unless they're caught committing another serious crime.
HEATHER MACDONALD, MANHATTAN INSTITUTE: Enforcing immigration laws is a vital tool to get felons and murderers and gangbangers off the streets. The cops working gang-ridden areas want the tool of immigration laws so they can get gangbangers off the streets immediately to protect the law-abiding immigrants that are living in those communities.
WIAN: Investigators say about half the members of two of L.A.'s deadliest street gangs, 18th Street and Mara Salvatruca are illegal aliens. One of the most surprising aspects of Special Order 40 is the fact that it was enacted in 1979 under Darrell Gates, the notoriously tough-on-crime former L.A. police chief. Since then, a succession of mayors, city councils and police chiefs have upheld the policy. The L.A.P.D. did not respond to interviews requests for this story, but in April said this...
DAVID GASCON, ASST. CHIEF, L.A.P.D.: As far as any alterations to the policy concerning Special Order number 40 is something that would be handled by the police commission, by the city council, by the mayor's office. We do not make policy, we implement policy.
WIAN: Policymakers say Special Order 40 is needed so immigrant communities won't fear the police and will cooperate with criminal investigations. City Councilwoman Janice Han's district was the site of a recent alien smuggler's drop-house bust.
JANICE HAHN, L.A. CITY COUNCIL: I think repealing Special Order 40 would not be in the best interest of improving that relationship and improving that trust. This is a federal government issue. Something needs to be done. I don't think enforcement at the local municipal level is what needs to take place.
WIAN: Several cities, including San Francisco, Houston and New York also have so-called illegal alien sanctuary policies in effect. There are proposals in Congress that would force local law enforcement agencies to report illegal aliens to federal immigration officers. However, one such proposal was voted down by the House last week. Casey Wian, CNN, Los Angeles.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: The Department of Homeland Security today began flying Mexican illegal aliens arrested in this country back to Mexico. The flights are voluntary for any Mexican citizen who entered this country illegally. The first flights left today from Tucson, Arizona, going to either Mexico City or Guadalajara. And once they arrive in the city of their choice, the illegal aliens are taken by bus to their final destination.
The Department of Homeland Security says the pilot program is an effort to cut down on illegal border crossings. And that brings us to the topic of tonight's poll question. "Do you believe illegal aliens in this country have too many rights or not enough rights?" Cast your vote at CNN.com/lou. And we'll bring the results later in the show.
When we return, much more on this country's growing immigration crisis.
Otis Graham, author of "Unguarded Gates, A History of America's Immigration Crisis," will join us. And the lights go out in Athens as the final countdown to the Olympics begins. We'll have that story.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PILGRIM: Florida firefighters tonight are gaining the upper hand on the fires that have been burning since last week. Now, the wildfires near Miami are 75 percent contained and all major roads have been reopened. Low winds and high humidity are forecast and conditions, they will help with the fight. Now, the fires have burned through hundreds of acres of dry grass and trees. No deaths or injuries have been reported. Fire officials expect the fires to be put out in three or four more days.
Well, returning to the issue of broken borders, my next guest says immigration, legal and illegal, needs to be restricted in this country. He says the immigration population is responsible for 70 percent of the population growth in the United States. Otis Graham is the author of "Unguarded Gates, A History of America's Immigration Crisis" and he joins us tonight from Raleigh, North Carolina. Thank you very much for joining us, Mr. Graham.
In your book, which is very interesting, you point to a second wave of immigration. The first wave, we're all familiar with from our grade school class, history class, of the great immigration wave. Now we're in a second one. Why is this any different than the first? The first went fairly well.
OTIS GRAHAM, AUTHOR, "UNGUARDED GATES": The first was restricted after 40 years of argument and it did go rather well, partially because it was restricted and we had time to assimilate those 30 million people who came in those years. The situation is very different for the second wave that began arriving in the 1960s.
First of all, the source countries are profoundly different. The first wave came from Europe. They were western people however different we thought that they were and they seemed to be. The source countries are now very different.
The largest single source country -- there was no one single source country in the first wave. In the second wave, Mexico and Latin America generally, but Mexico is a very large component, sustained component coming from a country with a poor economy, a troubled economy, and a fast-growing population. 2,000-mile border between the two so that coming and going back and forth, the cultural reinforcement, the language reinforcement, these circumstances didn't apply 100 years ago.
A third thing I would mention as a difference, 100 years ago, when immigrants came into the U.S., we were a culture and a society that insisted on Americanization. English, learn our ways, learn our history. Now we've changed for reasons which we don't need to go into now given our time. But we're a society which is much less emphasis on a common language. There's multi-culturalism as an intellectual current which welcomes all cultures and doesn't insist on Americanization.
So whether the assimilation process is working well is not a question that applies in the same way as the first wave. So the second wave and the first wave are about the same in size, and they've both been running about four decades. Whether we can curb and control the second wave, as we did the first wave, is a very open question, I think.
PILGRIM: Yes. Actually, looking at the numbers, I was surprised because they are revelatory. In the 1930s, immigration was 11.6 percent of the population. In 2002, the immigration population was 11.5 percent. In fact, almost identical percentage of the population. How would you suggest imposing some sort of restrictions without appearing discriminatory or racist?
GRAHAM: Well, the first -- the idea of restriction and control should never be called racist. We should call something racist when it's racist. The idea of controlling immigration is an old idea and good public policy and essential. We don't any longer have national origins quotas. We got rid of that and it's a good thing.
So if we bring immigration under control there won't be any national or racial or religious implications. Nobody would propose it, they wouldn't propose it for a moment. So when reformers talk about controlling illegal immigration and bringing legal immigration under control, when that idea is called racist, it means somebody is trying to shut down discussion. It doesn't mean they have evidence.
PILGRIM: Point taken, Mr. Graham. But what would you suggest as a way, , or criteria with which to control immigration?
GRAHAM: Immigration has to be controlled, I would say. Most people would say you can't just let anybody come here. You have to have regulations. All countries have immigration laws. On what principle should we decide? We now decide -- about 75 or 80 percent of our admissions under legal immigration is on kinship. Kinship to foreigners. We call it family reunification.
I and many other people who think that our legal system ought to be reformed substantially would suggest that we shift substantially away from kinship relations which is essentially nepotism and shift towards skills that are in need that the American economy needs. For whatever reason in our national interest, there's certain foreign talents that we need. That should be the main overriding principle, and some refugee component meeting our global obligations as we calculate them. PILGRIM: Fascinating topic. Way too big for us to handle all at once, but thank you very much for your insight and a very interesting read. Thank you, Otis Graham.
GRAHAM: Glad to be here.
PILGRIM: A reminder to vote in "Tonight's Poll." Do you believe illegal aliens in this country have too many rights or not enough rights?
Cast your vote at cnn.com/lou. We'll bring you the results a little bit later in the show.
Also ahead, we'll have "Your Thoughts" on broken borders.
Plus a major Wall Street firm pays millions to settle sexual discrimination charges.
And then a shocking development happening in Athens less than a month before the start of the Olympic Games. We'll have that and much more still ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PILGRIM: Just one month before the Olympic Games are scheduled to begin in Athens, the city had a major blackout. Trains, buses, and subways ground to a halt at mid-day today. The first trial of a new rail connecting the airport to the city failed, because one of the power outages in the city's water supply was disrupted. Now, government officials said the blackout was caused by a glitch in the electrical grid, and those officials say the Olympic venues will have their own backup power supplies, and events will not be interrupted.
Turn to Wall Street. Stocks open the week little change. The Dow rose 25 points, Nasdaq fell 9, S&P added 1.5.
And a major settlement of sexual discrimination charges at a Wall Street brokerage.
Christine Romans is here with the report.
CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Kitty, just before opening arguments, Morgan Stanley settled its sexual discrimination case, setting aside $54 million rather than air the whole thing in court. The deal settles claims Morgan Stanley denied hundreds of women raises and promotions and ignored lewd behavior among the men. The lead plaintiff, Allison Schieffelin, said she was denied promotions and had complained about men only golf outings and trips to strip clubs. She'll receive $12 million. Morgan Stanley denies any wrongdoing.
Also today, the NASD ruled against Piper Jaffray for IPO spending, giving choice initial public offerings to favored customers. $2.4 million fine there.
And from scandals to grim realities. Don't even think about retiring before the age of 65. Pew says the data shows most workers are nowhere near ready for retirement. Perhaps most shocking, they haven't learned any lessons from Enron, WorldCom, and the rest. Hewitt (ph) says, workers who have their own companies stock in their 401K's have way too much in there. On average 41 percent of their balance is in their own company's shares. Higher medical costs and diminishing benefits mean many will have to work another couple of years beyond the age of -- beyond the age of 65 -- Kitty.
PILGRIM: Let's hope everyone is listening.
ROMANS: Please listen.
PILGRIM: All right. Thanks very much, Christine Romans.
Let's take a look at some of "Your Thoughts" on "Broken Borders."
Now, Carroll of Abita Springs, Louisiana says, "People walk into this country with ease. Few are even checked at the southern border. Yet we wonder how terrorists get here."
And Linda of Albuquerque, New Mexico, writes, "The men and women in the Border Patrol do the best they can with what they have. I think Washington needs to wake up. It has been advertised to the terrorists just how porous our borders really are."
We do love hearing from you. E-mail us at loudobbs@cnn.com.
And when we return, the results of tonight's poll. But first, a reminder to look at our Web site for a complete list of companies we've confirmed to be exporting America. Cnn.com/lou.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PILGRIM: Now the results of tonight's poll. Eighty-four percent of you believe illegal aliens in this country have too many rights, just 16 percent of you say not enough rights.
Thanks for joining us tonight.
Please join us tomorrow. Our special report "Broken Borders" continues. A lack of funding in one state is forcing police to set illegal aliens free. We'll have that special report.
For all of us here, good night from New York. "ANDERSON COOPER 360" is next.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired July 12, 2004 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
KITTY PILGRIM, GUEST HOST: Tonight, President Bush answers his critics on Iraq with an uncompromising defense of the war against Saddam Hussein.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Although we have not found stockpiles of weapons of mass destruction, we were right to go into Iraq.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PILGRIM: Tonight, I will talk with the former U.S. chief weapons inspector David Kay about the president's speech and the calls for a massive shakeup in our intelligence community.
Senator Kerry enjoys a bounce in the opinion polls after choosing Senator Edwards as his running mate. I will be joined by the Washington bureau chief of "TIME" magazine, Michael Duffy.
In Broken Borders, police in some of this country's biggest cities are not allowed to arrest illegal aliens.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Enforcing immigration laws is a vital tool to get felons and murderers and gang bangers off the streets.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PILGRIM: The author of "Unguarded Gates," Otis Graham, says the federal government must restrict legal and illegal immigration into this country. Otis Graham is my guest tonight.
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT for Monday, July 12. Here now for an hour of news, debate and opinion, sitting in for Lou Dobbs who's on vacation, Kitty Pilgrim.
PILGRIM: Good evening.
President Bush today strongly defended his decision to go to war in Iraq. The president insisted the war was necessary, despite the U.S. failure to find weapons of mass destruction. The president's speech comes just days after a Senate panel said the intelligence used to justify the war was flawed.
White House Correspondent Dana Bash reports -- Dana.
DANA BASH, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Kitty, it was hard to miss the message that the president was trying to send today because he was in his refrain. Time and time again, he said Americans are safer now than they were three years ago when the U.S. was attacked, and he cited relationships that he's forged and wars that he has waged in order, he said, to keep America safe. And because of that, he said, he is standing by his decision to invade Iraq, weapons of mass destruction or not.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BUSH: Thank you all very much.
Although we have not found stockpiles of weapons of mass destruction, we were right to go into Iraq. We removed a declared enemy of America who had the capability of producing weapons of mass murder and could have passed that capability to terrorists bent on acquiring them. In the world after September the 11th, that was a risk we could not afford to take.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BASH: And the backdrop of Mr. Bush's speech was a government facility in Tennessee where Libya's nuclear weapons and nuclear materials, I should say, sit now, and the president made the case that Moammar Gadhafi gave them up because he saw what the U.S. did to Saddam Hussein.
Now some proliferation experts, some who had been in government for some time, said that this actually had been in the works for some time, and perhaps the genesis was more about the bombing of Pan Am 103 and a deal that Mr. Gadhafi was trying to make much more than the invasion of Iraq.
But, regardless, Kitty, if you look at a recent CNN/"USA Today"/Gallup poll, you'll see that this case that Americans are safer because of Iraq might be hard for the president to make. When asked if the war with Iraq made the U.S. safer from terrorism, 37 percent only said yes, and that is --- and 55 percent said no, and that is really a reversal from just six months ago.
So you see that Americans are feeling less safe, and top advisers are making this push. The president was out today, his national security adviser out today, trying to revive an issue that they thought would be a really easy sell on the campaign trail, and that is Mr. Bush's fight against terrorism.
And I should also mention that John Kerry today said that he thinks that the president should do more than give speeches. He cited the other hot spots around the world like North Korea that are still quite an issue -- Kitty.
PILGRIM: All right. Thanks very much.
Dana Bash. A short time ago here on CNN, National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice also defended the war in Iraq and the president's use of intelligence.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CONDOLEEZZA RICE, NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: We looked at it, the Congress looked at it, the Security Council of the United Nations looked at it, intelligence services around the world looked at and came to the same conclusion, which was that this was someone who had had weapons of mass destruction, had used them in the past. No one knew exactly how far along he was, but nobody was willing to trust the word -- as the president said today, to trust the word of a madman.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PILGRIM: Now Rice said Saddam Hussein clearly had the intent and the capability to pursue weapons of mass destruction.
Senator Kerry today rejected the president's claim that the United States is safer than it was on September 10, 2001. Kerry, speaking at a dedication for a September 11 memorial in Boston, disputed President Bush's claim that his policies have made America safer.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. JOHN F. KERRY (D-MA), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I happen to believe that the commander in chief has to be able to look into the eyes of a parent, a family, brothers, sisters, grandparents, and you better be able to say to them I tried to do everything in my power to avoid the loss of your son and daughter, but the threat to our nation was such that we had no choice. I believe that value, that trust was broken in these past years.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PILGRIM: Meanwhile, Senator John Edwards today received a rousing welcome on his first visit to campaign headquarters in Washington. Edwards was scheduled to meet with advisers before beginning a solo campaign trip on Wednesday.
And, as for President Bush tonight, new tensions with the leadership of the NAACP. Chairman Julian Bond called for "regime change" in this country, charging that the Republican Party is "playing the race card in election after election."
Last week, the White House declined a speaking invitation from the NAACP citing "hostile political rhetoric from the group's leaders." President Bush is the first president since the 1930s not to address the NAACP.
A new opinion poll today gives Senator John Kerry a 4-point lead over President Bush. Senior political Analyst Bill Schneider reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) WILLIAM SCHNEIDER, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: How big a bounce? For that, a poll of polls. Before, the race was a dead heat in the June polls. Then last Tuesday...
KERRY: I am pleased to announce that with your help the next vice president of the United States of America will be Senator John Edwards from North Carolina.
SCHNEIDER: And after, Kerry-Edwards leads Bush-Cheney by an average of 50 percent to 46 percent. Looks like Kerry got a 3-point bounce.
SEN. EDWARD KENNEDY (D), MASSACHUSETTS: Kerry-Edwards. It's got a winning ring to it.
SCHNEIDER: Maybe. The Democrats' lead is not statistically significant in any single poll, but the fact that Kerry and Edwards are ahead in four polls suggests there was a bounce. Who bounced?
Listen to what they're saying about Edwards.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He's being described today as charming, engaging, a nimble campaigner, a populist and even sexy.
SCHNEIDER: Well, women seem to be impressed. The Democratic ticket got a 4-point bounce among women, just 1 point among men.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: John Edwards is a fantastic addition to this ticket.
SCHNEIDER: Well, young people certainly think so. The Democratic ticket gained a whopping 10 points among voters under 50. The Democrats actually lost ground among older voters. Maybe they're listening to the president.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How does he stack up against Dick Cheney?
BUSH: Dick Cheney can be president.
SCHNEIDER: Is John Edwards' accent turning southern voters on? No sign of a bump for the Democrats in the South voters. Edwards advertises his small town origins, and, sure enough, the Democrats seem to have picked up support among rural voters. Republicans say Edwards adds geographical, but not philosophical balance to the Democratic ticket.
SEN. BILL FRIST (R), MAJORITY LEADER: There's no ideological balance. He's the fourth most liberal person to the left of Senator Kennedy and to the left of Senator Clinton.
SCHNEIDER: Sure enough, conservatives are not impressed. No bounce on the right, but there was on the left -- and in the middle where the swing voters are.
(END VIDEOTAPE) SCHNEIDER: By naming Edwards to the ticket early, Democrats are looking for a month-long bounce, right through the Democratic convention. And then in August, the Republicans will get the ball -- Kitty.
PILGRIM: All right. Thanks very much.
Bill Schneider.
Turning overseas, the U.S. Marine who was missing in Iraq has told military investigators he was abducted from his base in Fallujah. Corporal Wassef Hassoun is now at a military hospital in Landstuhl, Germany.
Senior Pentagon Correspondent Jamie McIntyre reports -- Jamie.
JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN SENIOR PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Well, Kitty, Pentagon sources and military sources are telling CNN that Corporal Hassoun has told initially at least his interrogators that he was, in fact, abducted from the base in Fallujah where he disappeared on July 19 and insists that the hostage video that shows him apparently being under the threat of beheading by armed captors was genuine.
But the official interrogation really hasn't started at this point. He's still in part of what's called the repatriation process, where he is -- his health is being assessed, and we're told that he's in good health and speaking well and should be able to be ready for that full debriefing sometime soon.
But military sources also say that when he disappeared from his base in Fallujah that there was no evidence at the time that he was abducted. In fact, there was some evidence suggesting that he left voluntarily and was heading for Lebanon. He still has to explain how he got from Iraq to Lebanon, across a 500-mile stretch of Syria without -- apparently without -- on his own. That's a journey that the military believes would have required some assistance.
And, of course, he again insisting that he was, in fact, abducted, something that the -- will have to play out over the next couple of days. The Pentagon again is urging that no one jump to any conclusion. They insist that there's an investigation under way, and it will determine the facts -- Kitty.
PILGRIM: Jamie, one other point. There's news tonight that the Philippines may be about to withdraw its troops from Iraq earlier than scheduled because one of its citizens is being held hostage. What can you tell us about that?
MCINTYRE: Well, that conclusion coming from a statement that Ova Philippine official has made to the Arabic news service Al Jazerra. The Pentagon at this point is not able to confirm that there's been any decision by the Philippine government to withdraw their troops early. They were scheduled to leave August 20. The group holding the Philippine hostage wants them to withdraw them by July 20.
But the Pentagon has made it clear and Defense Secretary Rumsfeld has made it clear on numerous occasions that they believe it's a mistake for any country to give into the demands of terrorists. It has applauded in the past the actions of South Korea and Japan, two countries who have resisted similar calls in the past. Defense Secretary Rumsfeld just last month made the case that giving into the hostages is what he called a dead-end road that just results in more incidents of terrorism -- Kitty.
PILGRIM: All right. Thanks very much.
Jamie McIntyre.
In Iraq today, the interim president vowed to take tough action against any insurgents who refuse to stop their attacks. The Iraqi government is building up an elite security force to fight the insurgents, but, so far, the Iraqi army only plans to have about 2,000 soldiers in the new force.
Michael Holmes reports from Baghdad.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MICHAEL HOLMES, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Coalition forces coming under fire on patrol is routine. These troops, however, are not Americans. They are Iraqi, all of them, not a single American in sight.
(on camera): This is an area where just a few weeks ago U.S. troops on patrol faced what one officer said was rocks by day, bullets, bombs and RPGs by night. But, in the two weeks that these Iraqi soldiers have been patrolling the same area, not a single shot has been fired.
(voice-over): What is happening in what is still considered a highly dangerous suburb is waves, handshakes, water being offered. One American later said no one offered us water. This is an army unit which literally speaks the same language as the locals. Their trainers see the value.
MAJ. DAVID LANE, U.S. MARINE CORPS: They understand the people, they understand the insinuations, they understand the cultural perspective, and, if they need to get a different answer, if they need more information, they know to ask for that information whereas we may stop short.
HOLMES: It's called the Iraqi Intervention Force 2nd Battalion, trained in urban combat, counterinsurgency and crucial intelligence gathering. Their American trainers call them the vanguard, the elite of the Iraqi army.
"We are the Army of Iraq," says this veteran. "We are proud of what we do."
Their American instructors say this unit has probably already saved lives. Residents here alerted an IIF patrol to a roadside bomb, later destroyed in a controlled explosion.
(on camera): Would you imagine coalition forces would have been given that information?
LANE: I could say maybe, but I'll tell you what, for sure, yes, the Iraqis got that information. That's very comforting because, you know, if a coalition humvee had been driving by and it would have gone off, it would have potentially killed somebody.
HOLMES: These days, Lieutenant Colonel Muhammad al Ali Hussein runs the show. He tells us, "Of course, the people were very happy to see us. They showed cooperation by informing about the bad people."
Some of the colonel's men have already found weapons caches, arrested high-level suspects and engaged in gun battles.
LANE: They're willing to return fire when engaged, and they have been engaged, and they have returned fire.
HOLMES (on camera): So these are the real deal?
LANE: No doubt.
HOLMES (voice-over): Two more IIF battalions are about to finish training and hit the streets, a total of 2,000 men. Well equipped and well armed, they will have the job of stamping out Iraq's insurgents. Major Lane is confident they're up to the task.
Michael Holmes, CNN, Baghdad.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: Still to come, false intelligence, the case for war and the future of our intelligence community. Former U.S. chief weapons inspector David Kay is my guest.
One of the most outspoken critics of U.S. foreign policy restores diplomatic relations with Iraq. The motive may have more to do with hard cash than simple diplomacy.
And the Edwards effect. Will the Kerry-Edwards ticket enjoy a lasting bounce from Senator John Edwards? I will be joined by "TIME" magazine's Washington bureau chief Michael Duffy.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PILGRIM: My next guest determined long before the Senate Intelligence Committee that U.S. pre-war intelligence in Iraq was flawed. Former weapons inspector David Kay famously told the Senate Armed Services Committee earlier this year, "We were all wrong." Kay served as chief weapons inspectors in Iraq for both the United Nations and the United States, and he joins me now from Washington.
And thanks very much for joining us, Mr. Kay.
DAVID KAY, FORMER WEAPONS INSPECTOR: Happy to be with you.
PILGRIM: Anything in the Senate intelligence report that was a surprise to you? And I ask you this because you seem to know the most about this entire subject, so only you would know what wasn't there before.
KAY: Well, I think the real surprise is that the report lays out a convincing but balanced case, and it was supported by all 15 members, Republicans and Democrats. It's a harsh report, which is unusual for oversight committees, but it also is remarkable in that it gets to fundamental causes. It's not the usual congressional report that says name a new DCI, shuffle the chairs on the "Titanic." It speaks of fundamental flaws in our intelligence system that go far beyond Iraq.
PILGRIM: Yes. What is striking is how bipartisan it is. And the report was very, very critical of the CIA, talking about broken corporate culture and poor management. Do you think they were overly harsh about the CIA?
KAY: No, I don't think they were because, in fact, you don't get a major disaster like this. And, remember, it's only the latest. The World Trade Center, 9/11, subject of a report in another week and a half or so. The Cole bombing, the embassy bombings, the missed Indian-Pakistani nuclear tests. So there had to be something fundamental, and I think it is remarkable that they put the effort in to understand that and then spoke quite plainly and bluntly about the causes.
PILGRIM: You know, we've been -- some time has passed from when you said we were all wrong. Do you still hold to that, and is there anything in this report that backs that statement up even more?
KAY: I certainly do hold to it. I noticed in your earlier segment with the president today in Oak Ridge, the president has come to the conclusion there are no stockpiles of weapons of mass destruction. We were all wrong, or almost all of us were wrong about that, what version you prefer. I think the support is in the report itself for that position, and I'm happy to see that the administration is now acknowledging that.
PILGRIM: Let's talk about Oak Ridge, and it's interesting because the president claimed that U.S. Successes in Iraq actually gave us some movement on Libya. Do you agree with that?
KAY: Well, you know, I'm certainly not the person who's going to be willing to go inside Gadhafi's head and say what he was really thinking. I'm not sure anyone is capable of doing that. I think Iraq probably played some part, but I think a larger part is Libya had been denied participation -- economic, political -- in the international community and, I think, finally got worn down by that.
I think it also -- I would argue Afghanistan was far more important than Iraq in terms of Libya. Afghanistan was the war on terrorism, and I think Gadhafi understood that. He was getting no gain from seeking nuclear weapons and not actually getting too close to even getting nuclear weapons and decided to cash in and play a different game.
PILGRIM: Let's move to another country, one in the axis of evil, Iran. And the secretary general said they would "not hold negotiations with the country which adopts a bullying attitude towards others." This would seem to be the exact flip argument to the Libya -- the success in Libya was attributable to Iraq, then Iran saying perhaps they won't negotiate with us because of that. What do you think of -- or do you think this is a neutral situation, that it is what it is, that Iran is saying what it needs to say?
KAY: Well, Iran is not neutral in the sense of being unimportant. It is of great importance, and many would have argued that Iran was probably more important than Iraq. It has a very active weapons program. There's no doubt about that. But what the Iranians are doing is -- unfortunately, you can see it in the report itself and the comments made at the report. We've lost our credibility to warn about other crises.
The Iranians are taking an effective political strategy to say, look, the Americans bully. They're bullying just like they did at Iraq. They were wrong there. They're wrong about us. The North Koreans have said essentially the same thing in the last three months, as have the Chinese about our argument about the North Korean nuclear program. For at least a generation, we're going to have the problem of lacking credibility behind our intelligence warnings.
PILGRIM: And yet we have one of the most potentially dangerous situations shaping up, North Korea. What are your thoughts on that?
KAY: I think North Korea is the most dangerous situation simply because no one knows what's going on in a hermit kingdom, and Kim Il Sung is, I think, a complete mystery to everyone in the intelligence community, and yet he's very -- he has the nuclear capability. I think all would argue. His military forces are poised less than 30 miles from central Seoul, highly dangerous.
PILGRIM: All right. David Kay, thanks very much for joining us this evening.
KAY: Happy to be with you.
PILGRIM: The French government has been a consistent and vocal critic of the U.S. policy in Iraq, but, today, France and Iraq reestablished diplomatic relations after 13 years. Now critics say the move is designed to ensure French companies can win lucrative reconstruction projects in Iraq.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM (voice-over): Today, Iraq's foreign minister met with his European Union counterparts in Brussels. On his agenda was rebuilding his country; on theirs, protecting their interests.
MICHEL BARNIER, FRENCH FOREIGN MINISTER (through translator): What has been expressed during this lunch was a common will to participate in the political and economic reconstruction of Iraq.
PILGRIM: France has longstanding interests in Iraq. Iraq owes France approximately $3 billion dating back to Saddam Hussein's regime. Saddam had signed off on tens of millions of dollars in oil development and exploration deals with France, Russia and China, contracts that are now in question. Under Saddam Hussein, Iraq bought its nuclear reactor from France, which he then tried to convert into a nuclear weapons program. But French relations with Iraq soured during the first Persian Gulf War, and diplomatic ties were cut until today.
BERNARD BAJOLET, FRENCH AMBASSADOR TO IRAQ (through translator): Our national colors are flying once again above the French embassy building for the first time in 13 years.
PILGRIM: France has been conspicuously absent from any participation in Iraq's current rebuilding. France opposed the U.S.- led invasion of Iraq last year. It also turned down requests for military help against insurgents that could destabilize the current interim government. And last month, French President Jacques Chirac came out strongly against a NATO role in Iraq.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: The European union has pledged to spend more than $370 million in Iraq for humanitarian and reconstruction aid. That's a pittance compared to the benefits it might gain once Iraq is open for business.
Here's an interesting story. Former Chicago Bears coach Mike Ditka may be suiting up for another career, this time as a politician. Ditka today did not deny the possibility that he may run for the Republican Senate seat in Illinois. Now, some Republicans are hoping the former Super Bowl winning coach will take on Democrat Barack Obama, and candidate Jack Ryan won the Republican primary but backed out of the race after embarrassing sexual allegations emerged from his divorce records.
Still ahead here tonight, the newest star of professional politics, Senator John Edwards. "TIME" magazine's Michael Duffy has just written a new profile of the lawyer turned politician. He will be our guest next.
Plus, former Enron CEO Ken Lay speaks out about his indictment on criminal charges. He says he does accept some of the responsibility for Enron's collapse.
And our Broken Borders series. Millions of illegal aliens have crossed the border into this country, but police departments in some of the nation's largest cities are prevented by law to do anything about it.
That and much more still ahead here tonight.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ANNOUNCER: LOU DOBBS TONIGHT continues. Sitting in for Lou Dobbs, Kitty Pilgrim.
PILGRIM: Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon today launched a dramatic new initiative to stay in power and revive his controversial plan to withdraw from Gaza. Sharon asked the Labor Party leader Shimon Perez to form a national unity government.
Alessio Vinci reports from Jerusalem.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ALESSIO VINCI, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It was an unusual breakfast invitation, Prime Minister Ariel Sharon asking the 80-year- old opposition leader Shimon Perez to join a unity government as soon as possible, necessary to strengthen Sharon's shaky coalition after the recent departure of right-wing partners who refused to back his withdrawal plan from Gaza and portions of the West Bank. The invitation came with a warning to his own Likud Party members who also disapprove of Sharon's plan: support the current government or widen the coalition.
ARIEL SHARON, ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER (through translator): I don't think I ever told you before if you don't want either of them, we will have to go to elections. There will be no choices.
VINCI: Perez seems intent on coming to the aid of Sharon for the explicit purposes of giving him support to start the withdrawal plan. However, he has set his own conditions. He wants clarification about its timetable and changes in current economic and social reform policies.
SHIMON PERES, ISRAELI LABOR PARTY LEADER: A government that will implement the disengagement from Gaza and the demolition of some of our settlements there. I must say that as far as terror is concerned, our supreme consideration is the process of peace, the continuation of it, the withdrawal from Gaza, then (UNINTELLIGIBLE) settlements there. And this will remain our overriding consideration.
VINCI (on camera): The coalition is not a done deal yet -- far from it. Labor is expected to demand a series of government portfolios Sharon may not be able to deliver, without losing significant support from within his own political party.
Alessio Vinci, CNN, Jerusalem.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: Turning now to politics in this country, the new Kerry- Edwards ticket made the cover of both "Newsweek" and "TIME" magazine this week. And my next guest wrote the cover story for "TIME" magazine on vice presidential candidate, Senator John Edwards.
And Michael Duffy is the Washington Bureau Chief for "TIME." He joins me from Washington. Nice to see you, Michael.
MICHAEL DUFFY, "TIME" MAGAZINE: Hi, Kitty.
PILGRIM: Let's talk about the latest poll. New CNN poll: Kerry, four-point lead. Is it the Edwards effect, do you think?
DUFFY: Well, sure. I think all the polls in the last week since the announcement have shown a slight bump for the ticket, somewhere between three and four points. Our own poll showed that, and so did CNN's. And that's part of a sort of predictable pattern.
But I'm not sure that they can get a whole lot more out of this pick at a time when the nation is so closely divided politically. Probably four to five was all they were going to get, and they seemed to have gotten it.
PILGRIM: Michael, you wrote the cover story, as we just said. And we'd like a little of the inside dish. I understand you interviewed Edwards' mother...
DUFFY: Yes.
PILGRIM: ... and she says, "People always underestimate my son." What can you tell us about that?
DUFFY: Well, she was very outspoken about the fact that neither she nor her husband Wallace ever had a chance for a college education. They were both mill workers. They sort of moved from town to town when they were young, in company towns, sometimes living in company housing.
There's a real -- there's a piece of the log cabin myth here that often isn't true with politicians but kind of is with John Edwards, even though he would grow up and eventually be quite wealthy.
And she said that one of the things they really wanted their kids to do was go to college, and she had no expectation that they would. But then, at every point in his career, we discovered, he exceeded expectations. Now, he went to college. He went to law school. He took all sorts of surprising jumps and even some risks.
You know, if he were a hearts player, Kitty, this is a person who would try to shoot the moon on almost every hand. He's a very -- he's willing to take risks, both in his life, in his political career, and also in his legal career. He was very much willing to not settle for cases, go to the jury and ask for more, when he was a trial lawyer, than a lot of local lawyers thought at the time. And he really transformed the North Carolina plaintiff's bar as a consequence.
So, he's a really unusual person and has, of course, come to this point a lot sooner than a lot of people would have expected.
PILGRIM: There's an interesting story about Kilimanjaro and how he attempted to climb it with pretty little preparation and brand new boots and a fear of heights.
DUFFY: Yes, he -- one day he just decided he and his son were going to climb Mount Kilimanjaro. That's a 19,000-foot peak in Africa. He knocked off work, went into a sporting goods store, said, "I'd like to buy some boots." They said, "For what?" He said, "I'm going to climb Mount Kilimanjaro in a couple of days." The staff was horrified -- I mean, really horrified that he was going to do this with almost no preparation. It's almost dangerous; in fact, it probably was.
And a few days later, there he was climbing Kilimanjaro. And at 16,000 feet, he woke up and he realized he had altitude sickness. He'd literally come too far, too fast. Now, to us, that was a great metaphor for his year.
But then, it turns out after he sent part of his party up to finally finish the hike, as they were coming down, Edwards was forcing himself up the trail by himself. And he eventually made it, too. So, it has allegorical power now, that story, and it happens to also be true.
PILGRIM: A lot of story about the drive to win.
You know, both Kerry and Edwards and President Bush are courting the Latino vote. In fact, Kerry is spending a million dollars on Spanish-language ads, and I believe we have some poll numbers. Yes, we do: 57% for Kerry; 38% for Bush.
How do you think this will play out? What's your insight on that?
DUFFY: The reason they're spending the ads money on Hispanic ads at this moment is that Kerry is under performing among Hispanics a little bit. Other Democratic presidential candidates have gotten 60% or more. Kerry needs to get his numbers up a little bit in order to hold that amount of voters he needs to win.
But what's interesting to me is that he's spending that money in states where typically Democrats haven't had a chance -- you know, Colorado, Nevada, Arizona, North Carolina. It suggests to me that they're going after voters in -- Hispanic voters in states where it's really been the Republicans' turf for the last cycle or two.
So, that suggests to me that they not only need to get their numbers up, but they're playing broadly for a lot of different states that Democrats typically haven't tried to contend in. So, that's, I think, another sign of willingness to throw the long ball here.
PILGRIM: Michael, we're almost out of time, but I wanted to ask you: The Cuban-American vote, very big in Florida -- which, of course, is a great battleground state. And President Bush got 82% of the Cuban-American vote last time. New polls show 60% now support Bush.
How do you think that will play out?
DUFFY: Well, he's taken some policy stands vis-a-vis Cuba -- and not just trade, but travel, to Cuba that have angered some of the Cuban-Americans.
It's also true that the nature of the Hispanic vote in Florida is changing; it's not as Cuban-centric as it used to be -- many more Mexicans, many more Puerto Ricans. And so, the message can't be so Cuba oriented for either party. They have to work Hispanics in a completely different way now. And I think we'll see that, also.
But that state, also, too close to call.
PILGRIM: All right. Thanks for your insights -- Michael Duffy.
DUFFY: OK, Kitty.
PILGRIM: Thank you.
Former Enron CEO Ken Lay is again speaking out about the 11-count criminal indictment against him. Lay is accused of securities fraud, bank fraud, and other charges related to Enron's collapse. Now, Lay denies the charges, but he told CNN's Larry King that he does accept some blame for Enron's demise.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LARRY KING, HOST, "LARRY KING LIVE": The Truman Doctrine apply, "The buck stops here." In other words, if something happens in the company, knowledge or non-knowledge shouldn't be an issue, you have to take the fall.
KENNETH LAY, FMR. ENRON CEO: Well, the buck stops here from this standpoint, Larry. And I've said I take responsibility for what happened at Enron, both good and bad, but I cannot take responsibility for criminal conduct that I was unaware of.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PILGRIM: Now, you can watch the full interview with former Enron CEO Ken Lay later tonight on "LARRY KING LIVE," and that is here on CNN.
Meanwhile, the second Enron executive to go to jail was taken into custody today. Former Enron Assistant Treasurer Lea Fastow will serve a one-year sentence, and she pleaded guilty to filing a false tax return related to her husband, former Enron CFO, Andrew Fastow's finances. Now, Andrew Fastow also pleaded guilty and faces a 10-year prison sentence.
Still to come: Police in major cities are forbidden by law to arrest illegal aliens. We'll have that special report.
And Otis Graham, the author of the book "Unguarded Gates: The History of American's Immigration Crisis, " will join us.
And wildfires are still burning in Miami; hundreds of acres already destroyed. We'll have that story.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PILGRIM: In our special report, "Broken Borders," this week, the growing immigration crisis in this country. As many as 12 million illegal aliens are living in the United States. But in some cities, police are powerless to do anything about the illegal population. In many cases, the law protects illegal aliens from being arrested because of their immigration status.
Casey Wian reports from Los Angeles.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): For 25 years, the city of Los Angeles has put out the welcome mat for illegal aliens. It's called Special Order 40. It prohibits LAPD officers from arresting illegal aliens for violating federal immigration laws and even for trying to find out if a criminal suspect is an illegal alien. It also prevents cops from turning illegal aliens over to federal immigration authorities unless they're caught committing another serious crime.
HEATHER MACDONALD, MANHATTAN INSTITUTE: Enforcing immigration laws is a vital tool to get felons and murderers and gangbangers off the streets. The cops working gang-ridden areas want the tool of immigration laws so they can get gangbangers off the streets immediately to protect the law-abiding immigrants that are living in those communities.
WIAN: Investigators say about half the members of two of L.A.'s deadliest street gangs, 18th Street and Mara Salvatruca are illegal aliens. One of the most surprising aspects of Special Order 40 is the fact that it was enacted in 1979 under Darrell Gates, the notoriously tough-on-crime former L.A. police chief. Since then, a succession of mayors, city councils and police chiefs have upheld the policy. The L.A.P.D. did not respond to interviews requests for this story, but in April said this...
DAVID GASCON, ASST. CHIEF, L.A.P.D.: As far as any alterations to the policy concerning Special Order number 40 is something that would be handled by the police commission, by the city council, by the mayor's office. We do not make policy, we implement policy.
WIAN: Policymakers say Special Order 40 is needed so immigrant communities won't fear the police and will cooperate with criminal investigations. City Councilwoman Janice Han's district was the site of a recent alien smuggler's drop-house bust.
JANICE HAHN, L.A. CITY COUNCIL: I think repealing Special Order 40 would not be in the best interest of improving that relationship and improving that trust. This is a federal government issue. Something needs to be done. I don't think enforcement at the local municipal level is what needs to take place.
WIAN: Several cities, including San Francisco, Houston and New York also have so-called illegal alien sanctuary policies in effect. There are proposals in Congress that would force local law enforcement agencies to report illegal aliens to federal immigration officers. However, one such proposal was voted down by the House last week. Casey Wian, CNN, Los Angeles.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: The Department of Homeland Security today began flying Mexican illegal aliens arrested in this country back to Mexico. The flights are voluntary for any Mexican citizen who entered this country illegally. The first flights left today from Tucson, Arizona, going to either Mexico City or Guadalajara. And once they arrive in the city of their choice, the illegal aliens are taken by bus to their final destination.
The Department of Homeland Security says the pilot program is an effort to cut down on illegal border crossings. And that brings us to the topic of tonight's poll question. "Do you believe illegal aliens in this country have too many rights or not enough rights?" Cast your vote at CNN.com/lou. And we'll bring the results later in the show.
When we return, much more on this country's growing immigration crisis.
Otis Graham, author of "Unguarded Gates, A History of America's Immigration Crisis," will join us. And the lights go out in Athens as the final countdown to the Olympics begins. We'll have that story.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PILGRIM: Florida firefighters tonight are gaining the upper hand on the fires that have been burning since last week. Now, the wildfires near Miami are 75 percent contained and all major roads have been reopened. Low winds and high humidity are forecast and conditions, they will help with the fight. Now, the fires have burned through hundreds of acres of dry grass and trees. No deaths or injuries have been reported. Fire officials expect the fires to be put out in three or four more days.
Well, returning to the issue of broken borders, my next guest says immigration, legal and illegal, needs to be restricted in this country. He says the immigration population is responsible for 70 percent of the population growth in the United States. Otis Graham is the author of "Unguarded Gates, A History of America's Immigration Crisis" and he joins us tonight from Raleigh, North Carolina. Thank you very much for joining us, Mr. Graham.
In your book, which is very interesting, you point to a second wave of immigration. The first wave, we're all familiar with from our grade school class, history class, of the great immigration wave. Now we're in a second one. Why is this any different than the first? The first went fairly well.
OTIS GRAHAM, AUTHOR, "UNGUARDED GATES": The first was restricted after 40 years of argument and it did go rather well, partially because it was restricted and we had time to assimilate those 30 million people who came in those years. The situation is very different for the second wave that began arriving in the 1960s.
First of all, the source countries are profoundly different. The first wave came from Europe. They were western people however different we thought that they were and they seemed to be. The source countries are now very different.
The largest single source country -- there was no one single source country in the first wave. In the second wave, Mexico and Latin America generally, but Mexico is a very large component, sustained component coming from a country with a poor economy, a troubled economy, and a fast-growing population. 2,000-mile border between the two so that coming and going back and forth, the cultural reinforcement, the language reinforcement, these circumstances didn't apply 100 years ago.
A third thing I would mention as a difference, 100 years ago, when immigrants came into the U.S., we were a culture and a society that insisted on Americanization. English, learn our ways, learn our history. Now we've changed for reasons which we don't need to go into now given our time. But we're a society which is much less emphasis on a common language. There's multi-culturalism as an intellectual current which welcomes all cultures and doesn't insist on Americanization.
So whether the assimilation process is working well is not a question that applies in the same way as the first wave. So the second wave and the first wave are about the same in size, and they've both been running about four decades. Whether we can curb and control the second wave, as we did the first wave, is a very open question, I think.
PILGRIM: Yes. Actually, looking at the numbers, I was surprised because they are revelatory. In the 1930s, immigration was 11.6 percent of the population. In 2002, the immigration population was 11.5 percent. In fact, almost identical percentage of the population. How would you suggest imposing some sort of restrictions without appearing discriminatory or racist?
GRAHAM: Well, the first -- the idea of restriction and control should never be called racist. We should call something racist when it's racist. The idea of controlling immigration is an old idea and good public policy and essential. We don't any longer have national origins quotas. We got rid of that and it's a good thing.
So if we bring immigration under control there won't be any national or racial or religious implications. Nobody would propose it, they wouldn't propose it for a moment. So when reformers talk about controlling illegal immigration and bringing legal immigration under control, when that idea is called racist, it means somebody is trying to shut down discussion. It doesn't mean they have evidence.
PILGRIM: Point taken, Mr. Graham. But what would you suggest as a way, , or criteria with which to control immigration?
GRAHAM: Immigration has to be controlled, I would say. Most people would say you can't just let anybody come here. You have to have regulations. All countries have immigration laws. On what principle should we decide? We now decide -- about 75 or 80 percent of our admissions under legal immigration is on kinship. Kinship to foreigners. We call it family reunification.
I and many other people who think that our legal system ought to be reformed substantially would suggest that we shift substantially away from kinship relations which is essentially nepotism and shift towards skills that are in need that the American economy needs. For whatever reason in our national interest, there's certain foreign talents that we need. That should be the main overriding principle, and some refugee component meeting our global obligations as we calculate them. PILGRIM: Fascinating topic. Way too big for us to handle all at once, but thank you very much for your insight and a very interesting read. Thank you, Otis Graham.
GRAHAM: Glad to be here.
PILGRIM: A reminder to vote in "Tonight's Poll." Do you believe illegal aliens in this country have too many rights or not enough rights?
Cast your vote at cnn.com/lou. We'll bring you the results a little bit later in the show.
Also ahead, we'll have "Your Thoughts" on broken borders.
Plus a major Wall Street firm pays millions to settle sexual discrimination charges.
And then a shocking development happening in Athens less than a month before the start of the Olympic Games. We'll have that and much more still ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PILGRIM: Just one month before the Olympic Games are scheduled to begin in Athens, the city had a major blackout. Trains, buses, and subways ground to a halt at mid-day today. The first trial of a new rail connecting the airport to the city failed, because one of the power outages in the city's water supply was disrupted. Now, government officials said the blackout was caused by a glitch in the electrical grid, and those officials say the Olympic venues will have their own backup power supplies, and events will not be interrupted.
Turn to Wall Street. Stocks open the week little change. The Dow rose 25 points, Nasdaq fell 9, S&P added 1.5.
And a major settlement of sexual discrimination charges at a Wall Street brokerage.
Christine Romans is here with the report.
CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Kitty, just before opening arguments, Morgan Stanley settled its sexual discrimination case, setting aside $54 million rather than air the whole thing in court. The deal settles claims Morgan Stanley denied hundreds of women raises and promotions and ignored lewd behavior among the men. The lead plaintiff, Allison Schieffelin, said she was denied promotions and had complained about men only golf outings and trips to strip clubs. She'll receive $12 million. Morgan Stanley denies any wrongdoing.
Also today, the NASD ruled against Piper Jaffray for IPO spending, giving choice initial public offerings to favored customers. $2.4 million fine there.
And from scandals to grim realities. Don't even think about retiring before the age of 65. Pew says the data shows most workers are nowhere near ready for retirement. Perhaps most shocking, they haven't learned any lessons from Enron, WorldCom, and the rest. Hewitt (ph) says, workers who have their own companies stock in their 401K's have way too much in there. On average 41 percent of their balance is in their own company's shares. Higher medical costs and diminishing benefits mean many will have to work another couple of years beyond the age of -- beyond the age of 65 -- Kitty.
PILGRIM: Let's hope everyone is listening.
ROMANS: Please listen.
PILGRIM: All right. Thanks very much, Christine Romans.
Let's take a look at some of "Your Thoughts" on "Broken Borders."
Now, Carroll of Abita Springs, Louisiana says, "People walk into this country with ease. Few are even checked at the southern border. Yet we wonder how terrorists get here."
And Linda of Albuquerque, New Mexico, writes, "The men and women in the Border Patrol do the best they can with what they have. I think Washington needs to wake up. It has been advertised to the terrorists just how porous our borders really are."
We do love hearing from you. E-mail us at loudobbs@cnn.com.
And when we return, the results of tonight's poll. But first, a reminder to look at our Web site for a complete list of companies we've confirmed to be exporting America. Cnn.com/lou.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PILGRIM: Now the results of tonight's poll. Eighty-four percent of you believe illegal aliens in this country have too many rights, just 16 percent of you say not enough rights.
Thanks for joining us tonight.
Please join us tomorrow. Our special report "Broken Borders" continues. A lack of funding in one state is forcing police to set illegal aliens free. We'll have that special report.
For all of us here, good night from New York. "ANDERSON COOPER 360" is next.
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