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Lou Dobbs Tonight
Senate Intelligence Chair Clashes with Pentagon Over Reform, White House Willing to Compromise; Illinois Passes Law Loosening Prescription Restrictions; Campaigns Make Military Service an Issue; Bush, Kerry Promising Too Much?; McGreevey Aide Speaks Publicly; Book: U.N. is Enemy of the U.S.
Aired August 17, 2004 - 18:00 ET
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THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
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LOU DOBBS TONIGHT starts right now.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LOU DOBBS, HOST (voice-over): Tonight, the chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee, the highly respected Senator Pat Roberts, appears to be on a collision course with the Bush White House and the Pentagon over intelligence reform.
SEN. PAT ROBERTS (R), KANSAS: Fifteen times we have tried to implement reform, if in fact, it is reform. Fifteen times we failed.
DOBBS: The White House has already collided with the state of Illinois. The administration opposes prescription drug imports. I'll be talking with Governor Rod Blagojevich of Illinois about his plan to help his citizens buy drugs abroad.
In "Broken Borders" tonight, the Department of Homeland Security appears more interested in sensitivity than in effectiveness. The department wants the border patrol's ability to arrest illegal aliens limited, again.
The population of this country is set to explode over the next half century, approaching 500 million people by 2050. Is that rate of population growth sustainable? We'll have full coverage tonight.
And I'll be talking about the United Nations and old Europe tonight with author Jed Babbin, who says Europe and the United Nations are morally bankrupt and enemies of the United States. Jed Babbin, author of "Inside the Asylum," is my guest tonight.
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT for Tuesday, August 17. Here now for an hour of news, debate and opinion, is Lou Dobbs.
DOBBS: Good evening. Tonight the White House and the chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee appear to be on a collision course over intelligence reform.
Intelligence committee chairman Senator Pat Roberts wants the new national intelligence director to control the budgets of this country's intelligence agencies, but today Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld testified he wants a much more cautious approach to the reform of intelligence.
Congressional correspondent Ed Henry reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ED HENRY, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): With support for a powerful national intelligence director picking up steam, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld tried to hit the brakes.
DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: If we move unwisely and get it wrong, the penalty would be great.
HENRY: Rumsfeld, who controls most of the estimated $40 billion intelligence budget, doesn't relish giving up that authority. But President Bush has endorsed the concept of an NID, so Rumsfeld stuck to a cautious refrain.
RUMSFELD: I am not in a position to say anything other than the devil's in the details.
We said the devil's in the details. You darn well better get it right.
HENRY: Democrats tried to exploit the apparent split between the president and his defense secretary.
SEN. CARL LEVIN (D), MICHIGAN: Mr. Secretary, we got specific recommendations from a 9/11 Commission.
RUMSFELD: I understand.
LEVIN: I'm quoting them. I just want to ask you your personal agreement or disagreement. If you can't give us that, that's OK. But just say you can't give us a personal yes or no, from your perspective.
RUMSFELD: I can't do it with a yes or no, that's for sure.
LEVIN: Thank you. Thank you.
RUMSFELD: That's a vastly more complex question.
HENRY: Rumsfeld was backed by the joint chiefs chairman. He warned that creating new bureaucracy would not be a panacea.
GEN. RICHARD MYERS, CHAIRMAN OF THE JOINT CHIEFS: There cannot be a czar that just starts pointing and pulling levers. There's no Wizard of Oz here that's going to solve this, in my opinion. It's got to be a collaborative effort.
HENRY: But this pits the defense chiefs against another powerful political force, the 9/11 families. Even as Rumsfeld spoke, they pushed for a strong national intelligence director at a separate hearing. KRISTEN BREITWEISER, SEPTEMBER 11 ADVOCATE: Going forward, we must ensure that when intelligence community judgments are made and people are killed, at a bare minimum, someone in our intelligence community is held accountable. An NID would be that person.
HENRY: One key Democrat called the families a citizens' army that will prod Congress into action.
SEN. JOE LIEBERMAN (D), CONNECTICUT: People will resist change even if it means protecting our country from another September 11. But your presence here gives me confidence that, when all is said and done, we're going to have the real intelligence reform.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HENRY: And some Senate Republicans are not quite on the same page, as you mentioned, Lou. Senate Intelligence Chairman Pat Roberts is drafting a bill that would create a very tough national intelligence director.
That runs counter to what the White House has already suggested they want. But it also runs counter to what the powerful Senate armed services chairman, John Warner, tells me he wants.
He told me a little earlier that he does not think that would be a wise strategy and, in fact, Warner would prefer to just take the current CIA director and put him into the cabinet.
Obviously, Lou, with pressure building on Congress, there still is not quite any consensus on this key reform -- Lou.
DOBBS: Thank you. Ed Henry from Capitol Hill.
President Bush is also standing firm, at least for now, on his proposals for that new national intelligence director. But the White House today held open the possibility of a compromise. Press secretary Scott McClellan said the president has not ruled anything out.
White House correspondent Suzanne Malveaux reports -- Suzanne.
SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Lou, I spoke with Scott McClellan, and he says the president's position remains the same, that this individual, the national intelligence director, must have significant budget and personnel authority, that that is what the president has stressed before. That nothing is being ruled out here.
Now according to a very senior administration official who I spoke with, he outlines the options this way.
One possible option, which he calls dual key, is the ability for the NID and the Pentagon to jointly develop the budget.
Another option, perhaps, is for the NID to be in charge of personnel, hiring and firing decision, while the Pentagon essentially would control much of the budget authority, as it is now. The third possible option is that the NID would control both.
Now, this official also said that there is a lot of debate still that is taking place. Even some confusion. But what is very clear, he says, is that this NID, this new position must be enhanced, must have enhanced power over these 15 intelligence agencies beyond what the current CIA director has. Otherwise, this is simply creating a weaker position -- Lou.
DOBBS: Suzanne, how concerned is the White House that this is a political collision that could spiral even further out of control, as between Capitol Hill Republicans and the White House?
MALVEAUX: Well, Lou, this is certainly difficult maneuvering here. I mean, this is a lot of hard work that has gone into this. The Pentagon involved. All these different 15 intelligence agencies that are involved with this, as well as the White House, that is very intent on creating a much more powerful position for this national intelligence director.
This is something that they are willing, they say, to play out, however. And there's not a great deal of concern yet, because they are certainly hoping that at least one of these options, a compromise, is still possible.
DOBBS: Suzanne, thank you very much.
The White House is also on a collision course tonight with a growing number of states over prescription drawing imports.
The Bush administration says it's illegal to buy cheaper drugs from outside this country, but today Illinois became the latest state to help its citizens buy cheaper prescription drugs from overseas.
Kitty Pilgrim has the report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KITTY PILGRIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): On this web site, residents of Wisconsin can find common prescription drugs in Canada for up to half off of what they would pay in an American drug store.
The federal government says importing them is illegal. Several states say that shouldn't be so. Minnesota, New Hampshire, North Dakota and Wisconsin have set up web sites to give their residents access to Canadian pharmacies.
GOV. ROD BLAGOJEVICH, ILLINOIS: My office has been working on the issue of importing prescription drugs from Canada.
PILGRIM: The governor of Illinois today announced the creation of an expanded list of pharmacies in Canada, Britain and Ireland. Overseas drugs are often cheaper because of government price controls, and some say Americans are paying the highest prices in the world for common drugs. ROGER PILON, CATO INSTITUTE: Right now, the situation is such that the drug companies get their great profits in the American market, because it's a relatively free market. Abroad, they're faced with socialist medical systems that charge controlled prices.
PILGRIM: The federal government is worried the drugs may be counterfeit, improperly labeled or produced in an unsafe way. There is simply no way to regulate them.
To counter that claim, Minnesota sends its own inspectors to certify pharmacies in Canada. The governor of Minnesota says the state has even offered to help fund a pilot program for federal authorities to do the monitoring.
GOV. TIM PAWLENTY (R), MINNESOTA: So you see, these efforts to bring in Canadian prescription drugs that are safe. It's a good effort. But it's one that we hope the federal government would embrace, but they haven't yet. So we're trying to lead and the states, I think, are uniquely situated due to that. We're supposed to be laboratories of innovation.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: Now, the FDA today in response to the move by Illinois said foreign drugs are often substandard, sometimes counterfeit and the price pressures are blinding people to safety concerns -- Lou.
DOBBS: Thank you very much, Kitty.
Well, I'm joined now by the governor of Illinois, Rod Blagojevich. He joins us from the Illinois state capitol in Springfield.
Good to have you with us, Governor.
Your decision to move ahead, Governor, without FDA approval, what prompted it?
BLAGOJEVICH: Well, what prompted it was the fact that we've spent the past year trying to work with the FDA, trying to work with the federal government to change some policies that really don't make any sense.
The fact is that working families across Illinois and across America, senior citizens across our state and across our country, can't afford the high cost of medicine. Yet, you can get the exact same medicine made by the exact same companies here in the United States by going to places like Canada or Ireland or England or Scotland.
In fact, many of the very medicines that we buy here in the United States are made in places like Ireland or England. And why would we deny access to those markets to American consumers when they, if they are given access to those markets, could save up to 25 to 50 percent on the cost of their medicines?
It's the same medicine made by the same companies. It's just being denied to American consumers the access to those markets.
DOBBS: Governor, has the FDA, has the Bush administration, the Department of Health and Human Services, have they articulated to you a reason that they would be against the importing of these drugs when they're obviously so pro-free trade on everything else?
BLAGOJEVICH: Well, that's the big irony. The fact is, our economic system, rightfully so, is based on freedom and giving people choices and access to markets.
Increasingly, our economy is wrapped up into a global economy. The countries we're talking about importing prescription drugs from -- England, Scotland, Ireland, Canada -- are among our biggest trading partners.
So why, when it comes to medicines that are made by American companies in those countries in many instances, would the Bush administration or the FDA resist efforts to provide access to American consumers?
The fact is that for the past ten years, every single year a million Americans have crossed the border and gone to Canada to buy medicine. The FDA has allowed that to happen.
Four states, you referenced in your program, have done it already. The FDA has allowed it to happen.
We here in Illinois want access to the same sorts of discounts for our constituents, for our consumers.
And what's important to note is that the big drug companies, as more and more Americans are availing themselves of the market in Canada, the big drug companies have begun to limit supplies to Canada in a cynical effort to deny American consumers cheaper and safe prescription medicine.
DOBBS: And those drug companies that have done so, do you want to name names here tonight?
BLAGOJEVICH: Well, there are several of them that have done so. I don't know if it's necessarily productive to start naming names, but that's why going to places like England and Scotland and Ireland, expanding the market in big markets like that, I think, is necessary.
DOBBS: Do you...
BLAGOJEVICH: Supply -- pardon me?
DOBBS: Do you expect, governor, that there will be repercussions from this from the FDA, from other agencies of the government, or do you think the course is clearly set, not only by the state of Illinois but the other states that have begun this program?
BLAGOJEVICH: I think it's awfully hard for the FDA to swim against the currents of history. Nothing is -- It's very hard to stop an idea whose time has come. And more and more Americans learn about these options.
And again, we're talking about the exact same medicines made by the same companies being offered to consumers in Europe, but being denied to consumers here in America, when we can save for our consumers 25 percent to 50 percent on cost of their medicine.
And we're talking about senior citizens who ration medicine. We're talking about working families who have a hard time paying for the medicine their children need. It is more than just a legal question. It's a moral question.
And I think when more and more Americans become more aware of the opportunities and the facts, I think it's awfully hard -- going to be awfully hard for the FDA to keep resisting the efforts of states like Illinois, Wisconsin, Minnesota, North Dakota and others that I think will soon join on. Because this is something that can provide help to people who need it.
DOBBS: Governor Rod Blagojevich, we thank you very much for being here.
BLAGOJEVICH: Thanks for having me.
DOBBS: Still ahead, accusations of cowardice on the presidential campaign trail today as the Bush and Kerry campaigns escalate their battle over military service and its relevance to holding the highest office in the land.
Also tonight, the sex scandal that brought down a governor. Tonight the man Governor Jim McGreevey of New Jersey calls his lover says the truth will come out.
And a population crisis looming for this country. The United States will be home to nearly 500 million people over the next half century. Two leading experts on environment and population growth join us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: President Bush today visited a Boeing plant that makes helicopters used by American troops in Iraq and Afghanistan. President Bush thanked employees at the Pennsylvania plant for their help in protecting our nation.
The issue of national security is at the forefront of this campaign now. Both candidates have questioned their opponent's record and courage. Bill Schneider has the report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BILL SCHNEIDER, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST (voice-over): The campaign battle is escalating dangerously. It started with an ad challenging John Kerry's credentials as a Vietnam War hero.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: John Kerry is no war hero.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He betrayed all his shipmates. He lied before the Senate.
SCHNEIDER: Outraged Kerry supporters are returning fire.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: George Bush used his father to get into the National Guard, was grounded and then went missing. Now he's allowing false advertising that attacks John Kerry.
SCHNEIDER: On another front, after Kerry talked about waging a more sensitive war on terror, Vice President Cheney saw an opening to challenge Kerry's toughness.
DICK CHENEY, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: America has been in too many wars for any of our wishes, but not a one of them was won by being sensitive.
SCHNEIDER: On Friday, an outraged Senator Tom Harkin said, "When I hear this coming from Dick Cheney, who was a coward, who would not serve during the Vietnam War, it makes my blood boil."
How did things get so ugly? One reason is that military credentials matter again, just as they did during the Cold War.
In the 1992 campaign, questions were raised about Bill Clinton's draft record. But the Cold War was over. Clinton got elected.
Questions were raised about George W. Bush's National Guard service in the 2000 campaign. But Bush got elected.
Nine-eleven brought the national security issue back front and center. In the 2002 midterm, Democrats were outraged by what they saw as unscrupulous charges against Georgia Senator Max Cleland, a disabled war veteran.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: As America faces terrorists and extremist dictators, Max Cleland runs television ads claiming he has the courage to lead.
SCHNEIDER: Cleland's defeat made him a martyr to Democrats. He helped fellow Vietnam veteran John Kerry win the 2004 Democratic nomination. With Kerry at the top of the ticket, Democrats now have credibility on national security.
BILL CLINTON, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: During the Vietnam War, many young men, including the current president, the vice president and me could have gone to Vietnam and didn't. John Kerry came from a privileged background. He could have avoided going, too, but instead he said, "Send me."
SCHNEIDER: Will they let Republicans challenge Kerry's credibility? Not without a fight.
Bill Schneider, CNN, Los Angeles.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: And we should point out that Senator Kerry tonight is condemning that MoveOn.org ad that criticizes President Bush's military record. That's the ad that you just saw in Bill Schneider's report. Senator Kerry's campaign issued a statement saying this should be a campaign of issue, not insults.
And that brings us to the subject of tonight's poll. The question: "Do you believe military service should be a primary qualification to serve as president?" Cast your vote at CNN.com/Lou. We'll have the results for you later during the broadcast.
Senator Kerry today took time off from campaigning. His running mate, Senator John Edwards, visited Arkansas and promoted the Democrats' plan to create jobs. That plan is one of many Kerry proposals that his critics question as to whether or not he can pay for it.
John King reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SEN. JOHN KERRY (D-MA), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I wanted America to know...
JOHN KING, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The candidate's book and his speeches are full of pricey promises.
KERRY: And we're going to lower the cost of health care. For every single one of you that gets it today, I'm going to raise the childcare credit $1,000.
But we're going to provide a $4,000 per pupil, per student tuition tax credit.
KING: There's more.
KERRY: And we're going to fully fund No Child Left Behind.
We will raise the funding for the Indian health system.
KING: And still more.
KERRY: That's why I've got a $2 billion effort that's going to go straight into clean coal technology.
KING: More than 100 new spending proposals.
And this.
KERRY: Our plan will cut the deficit in half by four years.
KING: Just the major Kerry health care and education initiatives would cost more than $800 billion over 10 years, about what would be saved by delivering on a promise to eliminate the Bush tax cuts for those making more than $200,000 a year.
THOMAS MANN, THE BROOKINGS INSTITUTION: He's got a shot at paying for those with the increased taxes on high-income households. But the rest of it is -- is somewhat problematic.
KING: Senator Kerry, like many candidates before him, says he will pay for the rest by closing tax loopholes and eliminating wasteful spending.
ROBERT BIXBY, CONCORD COALITION: Some of those are rather vague, loophole closings. The new programs are specific, and the offsets are in some cases very vague.
KING: The Democrat also says that, if need be, he will scale back his spending plans to put the government back on a pay as you go budget.
By the president's math, $2.2 trillion in new spending proposals.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: He said, "I'll just tax the rich." You've heard that talk before, haven't you? Rich hires accountants. And guess who gets stuck with the tab. You do!
KING: But Mr. Bush also might be promising more than he can deliver, calling for more tax cuts while also pledging to cut the deficit in half.
BIXBY: I don't think the promises of either one of them add up. Kerry has got too much spending in his plan to be able to get that sort of deficit reduction. And Bush cuts taxes by too much.
KING: And those who watch the campaign with green eyeshades say both campaign are all but ignoring the biggest spending dilemma on the horizon.
(on camera) The first wave of the so-called Baby Boom generation reaches retirement age in the next presidential term, creating a senior boom, strain on Social Security, and a major fiscal challenge for the next president.
John King, CNN, Washington.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: Coming up next, the sex scandal that rocked New Jersey and cost Governor Jim McGreevey his job. His accuser speaks out publicly for the first time.
Then, inside the asylum. Author Jed Babbin says the United Nations is inept, corrupt and old Europe, morally bankrupt. Jed Babbin is our guest tonight.
And this country faces a massive population explosion. The United Nations could be a nation of nearly 500 million people in 50 years. We'll hear some very sobering facts from two leading experts on both the environment and population growth. Next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ANNOUNCER: LOU DOBBS TONIGHT continues with more news, debate and opinion. Here now, Lou Dobbs.
DOBBS: New fallout tonight from New Jersey governor James McGreevey's resignation and his admission of a gay love affair. The former McGreevey aide who accused the governor of sexual harassment has now left the country, but is now for the first time speaking publicly.
Deborah Feyerick is here now with the report -- Deborah.
DEBORAH FEYERICK, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Lou, the man in the eye of the storm, Golan Cipel, thought he could slip away. Away from New Jersey, away from the scandal enveloping the governor there. He was wrong.
The former security advisor to James McGreevey went home to his parents in Israel. He was greeted by a mob of cameras, the beleaguered Cipel saying, "I've had a very difficult time."
Cipel was set to file a sexual harassment suit against the governor. Settlement talks broke down Thursday. Hours later, the governor announced he was gay and that he had a consensual affair.
Today, McGreevey was back running the state, holding terrorism drills with federal officials, then meeting with the man who will replace him if McGreevey stays until November.
New Jersey Republicans and now Democrats are trying to force McGreevey out in the next couple of weeks so that a special election can decide who will govern next.
Those close to McGreevey vow he will not go easily, an aide telling CNN, "We're not going anywhere."
In an op ed piece in "USA Today," the governor praises the things he's accomplished in the two years since he was elected.
Political forecasters predicted that things would get worse for the governor before getting better. CNN has learned that tomorrow one of his top fundraisers will plead guilty. The fundraiser under investigation for, among other things, violating campaign contribution laws -- Lou.
DOBBS: That story just continues to unfold. And none of the elements good for the governor.
FEYERICK: Very bad, as a matter of fact.
DOBBS: What is the speculation amongst strategists and the political wags, if you will, in New Jersey, as to whether McGreevey can withstand these calls for his immediate resignation?
FEYERICK: It's likely that he will withstand him. He has made a very calculated decision as to when he's going to step down.
The one person who could really perhaps prevent that is Senator Jon Corzine, but right now he has made no indication that he even wants to be governor. He is such a big player on the national level, that...
DOBBS: Could he -- Could he have some influence in persuading McGreevey to step out of office immediately?
FEYERICK: McGreevey has said if he gets a call from Corzine, he'll consider it. But that call hasn't come.
DOBBS: As they say, stay tuned. Deborah Feyerick, thank you.
Turning now to international politics. My next guest says the United Nations and the European Union are morally bankrupt and open enemies of the United States.
Jed Babbin is the author of a new book entitled "Inside the Asylum: Why the United Nations and Old Europe are Worse Than You Think." Babbin served as deputy undersecretary of defense under George H.W. Bush and joins us tonight from Washington.
Good to have you here.
JED BABBIN, AUTHOR, "INSIDE THE ASYLUM": Thanks for inviting me.
DOBBS: The idea that old Europe, and of course, old Europe is led by Germany and France and the United Nations, are morally bankrupt goes counter to the current Bush administration, which has now once again embraced the United Nations for help in Iraq and is working hard to re-establish relationships with both Germany and France.
How do you feel about that?
BABBIN: That's one of the reasons why I titled the book "Inside the Asylum," Lou. I mean, one of the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. And that's what we're doing in the U.N.
I mean, it's almost like we're Sisyphus and the U.N. is the boulder. Every time we get it close to the top of the hill, the Europeans push it back down again. We're just really not making any sense geopolitically and not doing ourselves very much help in going back to the U.N. yet again.
DOBBS: Well, once again, we are back with the United Nations and a role established for the U.N. in Iraq and apparently one at least this administration believes is essential to success in Iraq.
What would you have this administration -- what would you have any administration do with the institution that is the United Nations?
BABBIN: Well, I don't agree with a lot of the right wing wackos in this country. We can't just walk out and slam the door behind us.
What we have to do is gradually, over a period of years, create a political environment whereby the good nations of the world, the democracies, can walk with us out of the United Nations, without their leaders committing political suicide. We have to escape the quagmire of the U.N., which is created by the disparity in the voting power. If you look, Lou, at the 191 members of the U.N., fewer than 50 of them allow their citizens free and open elections and the right to vote. We have to get away from that.
DOBBS: Say that one more time. Give us that statistic one more time.
BABBIN: Fewer than 50 out of the 191 members of the U.N. are democracies that allow their people free and open elections and basic human rights. So whenever we take a vote before the U.N., whether it's in the security council, which we have to deal with France in, or in the general assembly, which is really just a mad hatter's tea party any more, we cannot get the votes. The haves don't have the votes. The have nots have the votes. Quite frankly, the whole issue of U.N. legitimacy is really, I think, a big scam, because you have all of these nations that are despots and dictators far outnumbering the good nations of the world. So they control it, we don't.
DOBBS: You reserve a chapter of your book for the United Nations' Food For Oil program, and you entitle that Kofigate. Why so?
BABBIN: Well, I wish I could claim the authorship of that particular term. I think that was coined by Bill Safire of the "New York Times." But the corruption of the U.N. goes all the way from the bottom to the top. It's not new. We saw it 20 years ago in UNESCO. The corruption there leading up to the head of UNESCO.
Here we see the corruption in the U.N.'s Oil For Food program being absolutely comprehensive, from the very lowest levels in the Baghdad offices of the Oil For Food program, which were actually reporting to Saddam's intelligence program all the way up to Benon Sevan, the head U.N. official running the program. It is quite possible we don't know, but it is quite possible that Mr. Annan himself, the secretary-general, was involved. He was at least knowledgeable of what wasn't happening, which was comprehensive audits and checking to see this program was well run.
DOBBS: Are you confident that Paul Volcker, the former Fed chairman, preeminent international banker now in charge of the U.N. investigation of the Oil For Food program, do you think he'll be successful in his investigation?
BABBIN: I'm quite confident he will not for one particular reason. Mr. Volcker is a man of great stature and honesty, but in order to succeed, he's going to have to get through all the documents that are in Iraq. And, number two, get cooperation from France, where most of the money went through and where many of the bribes were aimed, through the Jordanian government and the Jordanian banks. None of these people are going to cooperate with him. He can't compel cooperation. He's quite frankly on a fool's errand at this point.
DOBBS: Jed Babbin, no fool, he wrote "Inside The Asylum." A provocative book, examination of old Europe, the United Nations and our relationship with both. Thanks for being here.
BABBIN: Thank you. DOBBS: Taking a look now at some of your thoughts. Many of you wrote in about the U.N. attempt to interfere, or intervene, if you prefer, with U.S. border security and immigration policies.
Debra in South Glens Falls, New York. "If members of the United Nations are concerned about our policies concerning illegal aliens, I invite their home countries to let the world know that their country would welcome those turned from our borders."
And Carolyn in Orlando, Florida. "Why should the United Nations have any say over any U.S. policy? When it comes to our internal policies such as who to let into our country, they have no business interfering."
And Lazaro Rodriguez of League City, Texas. "Why can't the government bill Mexico for all medical expenses incurred by illegal immigrants who seek medical help while in this country? Mexico is always saying it wants its citizens to be treated fairly in the United States. If it cares so much about them, Mexico should take care of them, too."
We love to hear from you. Send us your thoughts at loudobbs@CNN.com.
Still ahead here, millions of illegal aliens entering this country absolutely undetected. Tonight the Department of Homeland Security appears to be putting sensitivity well ahead of effective policies against illegal aliens.
And this country could be home to nearly half a billion people by 2050. Is that explosive rate of population growth in this country sustainable? We'll hear from two leading experts on population and the environment.
And a small British village, all but washed away by a wall of water. The unbelievable story and pictures, still ahead. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Hundreds of thousands of Floridians tonight are still without power after Hurricane Charley swept across much of the state. Power officials warn that it could be yet another week before electricity is completely restored. The federal government has released $11 billion for the massive cleanup but the total cost of the destruction is expected to rise.
Nineteen people have been confirmed dead. Still, many are missing. And in New Mexico today, that state recovering from a huge mudslide that washed over much of the middle Rio Grande valley. Nearly 2 inches of rain fell in some areas along the Rio Grande valley. No injuries were reported.
And in England, a wall of water descended on a small tourist village. Emergency workers there in helicopters rescuing dozens of people from rooftops and trees as the water swept away cars and battered the small town. Many people were trapped in those cars. We have no word tonight on injuries.
In "Broken Borders" tonight we've reported here many times on a highly successful border patrol program to find and to arrest illegal aliens. That program was shut down after immigrants' rights groups complained that it was insensitive to illegal aliens. A group of frustrated citizens then demanded an explanation from a top White House official. Casey Wian reports from Los Angeles.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): In June, the border patrol's Temecula, California station arrested more than 400 illegal aliens as far as 100 miles from the Mexican border but the inland sweeps were suspended following complaints from immigrants' rights advocates.
Homeland Security Undersecretary Asa Hutchinson then promised to consider the sensitivities of interior immigration enforcement. Now he denies that inland sweeps have been stopped for good which didn't satisfy this group of angry citizens at a recent town hall meeting called by San Diego Congressman Darrell Issa.
REP. DARRELL ISSA (R), CALIFORNIA: The fact is we do not want to have people indiscriminately grabbed because they happen to be Hispanic.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's been implied that you all do not know where many of the illegal immigrants gather or accumulate, yet I'll bet every one in this room knows where illegal immigrants are.
WIAN: Some traveled hundreds of miles to demand that illegal aliens be arrested and deported and that the border be controlled.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I just wanted to know because the constitution mandates that the army and the military protect our borders, why isn't that happening?
ASA HUTCHINSON, BORDER & TRANSPORTATION SECURITY UNDERSECY.: The U.S. military would have a responsibility on the border if we were being attacked along the southern and northern border.
WIAN: "We are being attacked," they shout.
IRA MEHLMAN, FED. FOR AMER. IMMIGRATION REFORM: Asa Hutchinson and Darrell Issa deserve to be booed. They have an obligation to enforce these laws and it is evident from the reaction of people who live in the Temecula area and all the border areas in the southwest, that people want these laws enforced. They believe that the border patrol should be out there enforcing the law, arresting people who are violating our immigration laws.
WIAN: Hutchinson says his department's main focus is stopping terrorism.
(on camera): The Homeland Security Department is reviewing its interior immigration enforcement procedures to improve cooperation between the border patrol and immigration and customs enforcement. The agency says it is not considering geographic restrictions on border patrol agents. Casey Wian, CNN, Los Angeles.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: Tomorrow I'll be joined by California's state Senator Gil Cedillo who says illegal aliens are entitled to state driver's licenses. Senator Cedillo says he will fight for that right until he dies. And he'll be with me tomorrow evening.
Scientists are tonight ecstatic -- it's the only way to put it -- after the international spacecraft Cassini discovered two new moons that orbit the planet Saturn. The moon measure about two miles in diameter, they're orbiting 130 miles from the planet's center. Saturn now has 33 known moons but scientists believe they may discover even more moons during the Cassini mission.
Still ahead here tonight, population explosion, perhaps a crisis. A new report finds immigration is making this country's population one of the fastest growing on earth. I'll be talking with two experts on how that population explosion will affect our culture and environment and economy. That's coming up next.
And American think tanks influencing major U.S. policy decisions, including the war in Iraq. We'll have a special report on the reach of these so-called thought leaders. Those stories and a great deal more still ahead here tonight.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: A new report shows global population is exploding. World population will increase an astonishing 45 percent by 2050 according to the population reference bureau study.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS (voice-over): The United States will experience one of the most explosive increases of all. America's population will increase by a staggering 43 percent by 2050. We'll have more than 420 million people living in this country by then.
In Asia, another dramatic increase in population. Five point four billion people will live in Asia by 2050.
In Europe, a significant decline is forecast. Europe's population is expected to fall from 728 million to 668 million people.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: Joining me now to discuss this new study and the impact of the explosive growth rates here in this country, Carl Haub. He's the senior demographer from the Population Reference Bureau in Washington. And Sunny Lewis, she's the editor-in-chief of the Environmental News Service, joining us tonight from Honolulu.
Good to have you both here. Carl, let me ask you first, were you shocked, surprised, by the resultant growth in population by 2050?
CARL HAUB, POPULATION REFERENCE BUREAU: In this country? No, not really. The U.S. has been a country of immigration for many, many years. And we also have a higher birth rate than in Europe. So I mean, this is something that we have known for some time. Immigration has been rising a bit, and the -- some of the projections have risen for 20350. But I would say on balance most demographers probably would have expected that.
DOBBS: And world population growth, world population will be what by 2050?
HAUB: It will be around 9 billion. But that's very dependent upon what happens to the birth rate in developing countries. Is it going to come down in countries where, in fact, it isn't coming down today? Where it is coming down, will it continue to do so?
And these are some fairly major questions that we're just going to have to wait and see what the answers are.
DOBBS: As you talk about waiting to see what the answers are, Sunny, let me turn to you.
Is this something we should be waiting to see what the answers are, because we have a situation now where emerging economies, nations are bringing on resources, taking resources from the planet to provide for their populations naturally.
Is this sustainable, in your opinion?
SUNNY LEWIS, ENVIRONMENTAL NEWS SERVICE: Well, it seems to me, Lou, that with every person that is born, there is more pressure on the natural resources of this planet, especially on the water. And of course, on the food, because as you use the water to -- for agriculture. People eat a lot of meat and it takes more water to produce a pound of meat than it does a pound of grain. There's also pressure on energy sources, of course, and not only just fossil fuel, but the water is really the thing that is experiencing the greatest pressure today. I think we're going to see water wars. We're already seeing wars, especially in Central Africa, fought over natural resources, such as timber, water, diamonds and fuel.
DOBBS: Well, in this country right now, Carl, and I'd like to bring you in as demographer on this, because amongst other thing, China, as it is building its economy and raising the living standard for its people naturally, China has to provide natural resources to improve their standard of living. Steel, cement, energy, oil in particular, being consumed in enormous quantities each year in greater quantities by China and all other countries that are growing. What in the world does this study suggest to you about the impact on the world in which all of these people will soon be living?
HAUB: Well, I think basically, what we see here is that countries will have to manage growth better. Yes, certainly if everyone became a consumer at a U.S. level, there would be a problem. But one of the things we have today is the ability, is the ability to make it better. For example, have a lot transportation uses natural gas in cities in the developing world. They can leap frog, if you will, where we were in the 1950s.
DOBBS: They can, but do you know of a single country that's doing that because I certainly don't, Carl.
HAUB: There are some cities in India. Deli -- Deli has done this and Bombay. There are some cities.
DOBBS: India with more than 1 billion people. And By Your own forecast, India's supposed to take the lead in population growth by 2050, right?
HAUB: Yes, definitely. And of course, because China itself has such a low birth rate, but India will definitely pass China.
DOBBS: Sunny, as you consider all of this, we have a drought now in our western states, six years in duration. Some now speculate it is the worst drought and could well be the worst drought in 500 years. What is the impact, what should our policy makers, our lawmaker, our political and social leaders be doing here as they examine what's happening with natural resources and these kind of population projections?
LEWIS: Well, in my view, the drought everywhere in the world, as well as in the American west, is linked to our use of fuel and the burning of oil, coal and natural gas. Because global warming is a fact, and it is being seen right across the world right now. So, the quicker we can get to renewable sources of energy, the quicker we can get to renewable sources is really the key. Because then we will not be putting so much pressure on the world's -- the heat being trapped by the clouds that envelope the planet, trapping the heat close to the planet and causing the droughts that we see. Also, I want to say that, there are new techniques for creating desalination of sea water at a cheaper rate than we have seen in the past. Now, these techniques for example, the nuclear use -- use of nuclear power to desalinate water, as is happening in India and Pakistan, these...
DOBBS: Sunny, you just...
LEWIS: ... technologies bring their own problems.
DOBBS: Sunny, you just lost me when you started wanting to us nuclear power to drive the desalination, but that's going to be...
LEWIS: I don't want to necessarily, Lou, but I want to say that the International Atomic Energy Agency is working with India and Pakistan and does have projects in the works right now to do this. And this might solve our water problems. But of course, it brings other problems.
DOBBS: Indeed it does.
Carl, you get the last word here.
HAUB: Well, I think one of the things we have to keep in mind is that many developing countries, in fact, do want to slow their population growth. In fact, the vast majority do. But one of the things they often do not have is the financial resources to do so and the trained personnel. And here's where the wealthier countries of the world can help.
DOBBS: You know, Carl, as I hear you saying that, I almost -- I can almost hear screaming from some of these emerging economies and country, paternalism, patronization.
This is a wealthy country with great and immense resources, what should we be doing?
HAUB: What should we be doing in the developing countries?
DOBBS: No. How about right here at home?
HAUB: Oh. Right here in terms of slowing population growth?
DOBBS: You tell me.
HAUB: OK. Well, I don't think we have very much prospect for slowing population growth in the U.S.
DOBBS: All right, Carl with that we're going -- I'm sorry. We're going to have to run. I have already taken us well over time.
Carl Haub, thank you very much, a fascinating, if concerning study and Sunny, we thank you for being with us.
When we continue, many of our government policies are being shaped not at the White House or necessarily at Congress, but at this nation's leading think tanks. We'll have a special report on the high level of influence of those so-called thought leading institutions. Next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Tonight our special report on this country's so-called thought leaders, the think tanks. The think tanks that are made up of private citizens, scholars and many former elected officials and bureaucrats. They have tremendous influence on our government and its direction. Lisa Sylvester reports from Washington.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LISA SYLVESTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Three years before the Iraqi invasion plan for toppling Saddam Hussein had been discussed by a think tank called the Project For The New American Century. The think tank's associates included Vice President Dick Cheney, Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz and Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld. Their ideas eventually became official policy. The invasion of Iraq, the preemptive strike doctrine and the Star Wars missile defense program.
GARY SCHMITT, PROJECT FOR THE NEW AMERICAN CENTURY: The truth is 9/11 changed a lot of people's thinking and a lot of ways what we had to say made more -- was made much more relevant after 9/11.
SYLVESTER: The Project For The New American Century shows how much influence a think tank can have on government policy. The three think tanks most cited in the media this year are the left to moderate Brookings Institution, the conservative Heritage Foundation and the right leaning American Enterprise Institute.
Their opinions appear in newspaper op ed columns and their members are called to give expert testimony on Capitol Hill. A think tank's level of influence often depends on which political party is in power. Congressional leaders in the White House look to friendly think tanks to support their positions. Opinions are sometimes shaped to reach a given outcome, a practice even some in the industry question.
STEVEN CLEMONS, NEW AMERICA FOUNDATION: I would love to tell you that all of the work and research we do has a standard of objectivity that would meet the standard of anything out in sort of general academia. But that's simply not the case. We have large money coming in from institutions that generally want to make sure that the product produced fits what they would like to have.
SYLVESTER: And critics say there is a danger if the federal government is only listening to thought leaders who embrace their ideas.
JOHN PODESIA, CENTER FOR AMERICAN PROGRESS: There needs to be balance in that dialogue. There needs to be ideas on both sides, quite frankly. There needs to be debate and there needs to be critique on both sides.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SYLVESTER: What about the role of Congress? Isn't Congress supposed to be doing the political thinking and the policy making? Members of Congress are focusing on the day-to-day tasks and they often leave it up to the think tanks to do a lot of the long-range planning -- Lou.
DOBBS: Lisa, thank you very much. Lisa Sylvester from Washington.
On Wall Street, stocks close slightly higher. The Dow up 18 points. The Nasdaq up 12. The S&P up two. Oil prices hit another record high. Gasoline prices are expected to begin moving higher again as well. More evidence of the middle class squeeze. Christine Romans is here with a report -- Christine.
CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, the standards of living for American workers is closely tied to wage growth. Adjusted for inflation, wages are still falling, compared with a year ago. Average weekly earnings declined 7 cents of a percent in July. The average weekly paycheck, $526.94. One after another the government statistics bear it out. Wages and salaries are declining. Benefit costs are rising. A slack jobs market has taken its toll on what workers take home, and higher gas, health care and tuition costs only stretch the family dollar more.
Something to consider as well as Florida starts to rebuild and already housing market there may have trouble getting raw materials. Lumber prices soared today. There were already cement shortages before this hurricane hit. That's because every big construction project in China ripples all the way to the Gulf states. Now there's this rebuilding. Expect the scramble for cement, for lumber, for raw materials in the booming southeast to continue.
DOBBS: And as you reported, the middle class family budget dollar strained significantly. Thank you, Christine. Still ahead here, the results of our poll, a preview of what's ahead tomorrow. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: The results of our poll. Almost evenly divided. 51 percent of you say military service should be a primary qualification to serve as president. 49 percent say you do not.
Thanks for being with us. Join us tomorrow. California state Senator Gil Cedillo joins me. He says he will fight for illegal aliens' right to have driver's licenses until he dies. He'll be with us. We hope you are, too.
Has negative campaigning on the presidential election gone too far? Two different views in our face-off tomorrow. Please join us.
For all of us here, good night from New York. "ANDERSON COOPER 360" is next.
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Aired August 17, 2004 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
WOLF BLITZER, HOST, "WOLF BLITZER REPORTS": Here's how you're weighing in on the web question. Remember it's not a scientific poll.
LOU DOBBS TONIGHT starts right now.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LOU DOBBS, HOST (voice-over): Tonight, the chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee, the highly respected Senator Pat Roberts, appears to be on a collision course with the Bush White House and the Pentagon over intelligence reform.
SEN. PAT ROBERTS (R), KANSAS: Fifteen times we have tried to implement reform, if in fact, it is reform. Fifteen times we failed.
DOBBS: The White House has already collided with the state of Illinois. The administration opposes prescription drug imports. I'll be talking with Governor Rod Blagojevich of Illinois about his plan to help his citizens buy drugs abroad.
In "Broken Borders" tonight, the Department of Homeland Security appears more interested in sensitivity than in effectiveness. The department wants the border patrol's ability to arrest illegal aliens limited, again.
The population of this country is set to explode over the next half century, approaching 500 million people by 2050. Is that rate of population growth sustainable? We'll have full coverage tonight.
And I'll be talking about the United Nations and old Europe tonight with author Jed Babbin, who says Europe and the United Nations are morally bankrupt and enemies of the United States. Jed Babbin, author of "Inside the Asylum," is my guest tonight.
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT for Tuesday, August 17. Here now for an hour of news, debate and opinion, is Lou Dobbs.
DOBBS: Good evening. Tonight the White House and the chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee appear to be on a collision course over intelligence reform.
Intelligence committee chairman Senator Pat Roberts wants the new national intelligence director to control the budgets of this country's intelligence agencies, but today Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld testified he wants a much more cautious approach to the reform of intelligence.
Congressional correspondent Ed Henry reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ED HENRY, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): With support for a powerful national intelligence director picking up steam, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld tried to hit the brakes.
DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: If we move unwisely and get it wrong, the penalty would be great.
HENRY: Rumsfeld, who controls most of the estimated $40 billion intelligence budget, doesn't relish giving up that authority. But President Bush has endorsed the concept of an NID, so Rumsfeld stuck to a cautious refrain.
RUMSFELD: I am not in a position to say anything other than the devil's in the details.
We said the devil's in the details. You darn well better get it right.
HENRY: Democrats tried to exploit the apparent split between the president and his defense secretary.
SEN. CARL LEVIN (D), MICHIGAN: Mr. Secretary, we got specific recommendations from a 9/11 Commission.
RUMSFELD: I understand.
LEVIN: I'm quoting them. I just want to ask you your personal agreement or disagreement. If you can't give us that, that's OK. But just say you can't give us a personal yes or no, from your perspective.
RUMSFELD: I can't do it with a yes or no, that's for sure.
LEVIN: Thank you. Thank you.
RUMSFELD: That's a vastly more complex question.
HENRY: Rumsfeld was backed by the joint chiefs chairman. He warned that creating new bureaucracy would not be a panacea.
GEN. RICHARD MYERS, CHAIRMAN OF THE JOINT CHIEFS: There cannot be a czar that just starts pointing and pulling levers. There's no Wizard of Oz here that's going to solve this, in my opinion. It's got to be a collaborative effort.
HENRY: But this pits the defense chiefs against another powerful political force, the 9/11 families. Even as Rumsfeld spoke, they pushed for a strong national intelligence director at a separate hearing. KRISTEN BREITWEISER, SEPTEMBER 11 ADVOCATE: Going forward, we must ensure that when intelligence community judgments are made and people are killed, at a bare minimum, someone in our intelligence community is held accountable. An NID would be that person.
HENRY: One key Democrat called the families a citizens' army that will prod Congress into action.
SEN. JOE LIEBERMAN (D), CONNECTICUT: People will resist change even if it means protecting our country from another September 11. But your presence here gives me confidence that, when all is said and done, we're going to have the real intelligence reform.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HENRY: And some Senate Republicans are not quite on the same page, as you mentioned, Lou. Senate Intelligence Chairman Pat Roberts is drafting a bill that would create a very tough national intelligence director.
That runs counter to what the White House has already suggested they want. But it also runs counter to what the powerful Senate armed services chairman, John Warner, tells me he wants.
He told me a little earlier that he does not think that would be a wise strategy and, in fact, Warner would prefer to just take the current CIA director and put him into the cabinet.
Obviously, Lou, with pressure building on Congress, there still is not quite any consensus on this key reform -- Lou.
DOBBS: Thank you. Ed Henry from Capitol Hill.
President Bush is also standing firm, at least for now, on his proposals for that new national intelligence director. But the White House today held open the possibility of a compromise. Press secretary Scott McClellan said the president has not ruled anything out.
White House correspondent Suzanne Malveaux reports -- Suzanne.
SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Lou, I spoke with Scott McClellan, and he says the president's position remains the same, that this individual, the national intelligence director, must have significant budget and personnel authority, that that is what the president has stressed before. That nothing is being ruled out here.
Now according to a very senior administration official who I spoke with, he outlines the options this way.
One possible option, which he calls dual key, is the ability for the NID and the Pentagon to jointly develop the budget.
Another option, perhaps, is for the NID to be in charge of personnel, hiring and firing decision, while the Pentagon essentially would control much of the budget authority, as it is now. The third possible option is that the NID would control both.
Now, this official also said that there is a lot of debate still that is taking place. Even some confusion. But what is very clear, he says, is that this NID, this new position must be enhanced, must have enhanced power over these 15 intelligence agencies beyond what the current CIA director has. Otherwise, this is simply creating a weaker position -- Lou.
DOBBS: Suzanne, how concerned is the White House that this is a political collision that could spiral even further out of control, as between Capitol Hill Republicans and the White House?
MALVEAUX: Well, Lou, this is certainly difficult maneuvering here. I mean, this is a lot of hard work that has gone into this. The Pentagon involved. All these different 15 intelligence agencies that are involved with this, as well as the White House, that is very intent on creating a much more powerful position for this national intelligence director.
This is something that they are willing, they say, to play out, however. And there's not a great deal of concern yet, because they are certainly hoping that at least one of these options, a compromise, is still possible.
DOBBS: Suzanne, thank you very much.
The White House is also on a collision course tonight with a growing number of states over prescription drawing imports.
The Bush administration says it's illegal to buy cheaper drugs from outside this country, but today Illinois became the latest state to help its citizens buy cheaper prescription drugs from overseas.
Kitty Pilgrim has the report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KITTY PILGRIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): On this web site, residents of Wisconsin can find common prescription drugs in Canada for up to half off of what they would pay in an American drug store.
The federal government says importing them is illegal. Several states say that shouldn't be so. Minnesota, New Hampshire, North Dakota and Wisconsin have set up web sites to give their residents access to Canadian pharmacies.
GOV. ROD BLAGOJEVICH, ILLINOIS: My office has been working on the issue of importing prescription drugs from Canada.
PILGRIM: The governor of Illinois today announced the creation of an expanded list of pharmacies in Canada, Britain and Ireland. Overseas drugs are often cheaper because of government price controls, and some say Americans are paying the highest prices in the world for common drugs. ROGER PILON, CATO INSTITUTE: Right now, the situation is such that the drug companies get their great profits in the American market, because it's a relatively free market. Abroad, they're faced with socialist medical systems that charge controlled prices.
PILGRIM: The federal government is worried the drugs may be counterfeit, improperly labeled or produced in an unsafe way. There is simply no way to regulate them.
To counter that claim, Minnesota sends its own inspectors to certify pharmacies in Canada. The governor of Minnesota says the state has even offered to help fund a pilot program for federal authorities to do the monitoring.
GOV. TIM PAWLENTY (R), MINNESOTA: So you see, these efforts to bring in Canadian prescription drugs that are safe. It's a good effort. But it's one that we hope the federal government would embrace, but they haven't yet. So we're trying to lead and the states, I think, are uniquely situated due to that. We're supposed to be laboratories of innovation.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: Now, the FDA today in response to the move by Illinois said foreign drugs are often substandard, sometimes counterfeit and the price pressures are blinding people to safety concerns -- Lou.
DOBBS: Thank you very much, Kitty.
Well, I'm joined now by the governor of Illinois, Rod Blagojevich. He joins us from the Illinois state capitol in Springfield.
Good to have you with us, Governor.
Your decision to move ahead, Governor, without FDA approval, what prompted it?
BLAGOJEVICH: Well, what prompted it was the fact that we've spent the past year trying to work with the FDA, trying to work with the federal government to change some policies that really don't make any sense.
The fact is that working families across Illinois and across America, senior citizens across our state and across our country, can't afford the high cost of medicine. Yet, you can get the exact same medicine made by the exact same companies here in the United States by going to places like Canada or Ireland or England or Scotland.
In fact, many of the very medicines that we buy here in the United States are made in places like Ireland or England. And why would we deny access to those markets to American consumers when they, if they are given access to those markets, could save up to 25 to 50 percent on the cost of their medicines?
It's the same medicine made by the same companies. It's just being denied to American consumers the access to those markets.
DOBBS: Governor, has the FDA, has the Bush administration, the Department of Health and Human Services, have they articulated to you a reason that they would be against the importing of these drugs when they're obviously so pro-free trade on everything else?
BLAGOJEVICH: Well, that's the big irony. The fact is, our economic system, rightfully so, is based on freedom and giving people choices and access to markets.
Increasingly, our economy is wrapped up into a global economy. The countries we're talking about importing prescription drugs from -- England, Scotland, Ireland, Canada -- are among our biggest trading partners.
So why, when it comes to medicines that are made by American companies in those countries in many instances, would the Bush administration or the FDA resist efforts to provide access to American consumers?
The fact is that for the past ten years, every single year a million Americans have crossed the border and gone to Canada to buy medicine. The FDA has allowed that to happen.
Four states, you referenced in your program, have done it already. The FDA has allowed it to happen.
We here in Illinois want access to the same sorts of discounts for our constituents, for our consumers.
And what's important to note is that the big drug companies, as more and more Americans are availing themselves of the market in Canada, the big drug companies have begun to limit supplies to Canada in a cynical effort to deny American consumers cheaper and safe prescription medicine.
DOBBS: And those drug companies that have done so, do you want to name names here tonight?
BLAGOJEVICH: Well, there are several of them that have done so. I don't know if it's necessarily productive to start naming names, but that's why going to places like England and Scotland and Ireland, expanding the market in big markets like that, I think, is necessary.
DOBBS: Do you...
BLAGOJEVICH: Supply -- pardon me?
DOBBS: Do you expect, governor, that there will be repercussions from this from the FDA, from other agencies of the government, or do you think the course is clearly set, not only by the state of Illinois but the other states that have begun this program?
BLAGOJEVICH: I think it's awfully hard for the FDA to swim against the currents of history. Nothing is -- It's very hard to stop an idea whose time has come. And more and more Americans learn about these options.
And again, we're talking about the exact same medicines made by the same companies being offered to consumers in Europe, but being denied to consumers here in America, when we can save for our consumers 25 percent to 50 percent on cost of their medicine.
And we're talking about senior citizens who ration medicine. We're talking about working families who have a hard time paying for the medicine their children need. It is more than just a legal question. It's a moral question.
And I think when more and more Americans become more aware of the opportunities and the facts, I think it's awfully hard -- going to be awfully hard for the FDA to keep resisting the efforts of states like Illinois, Wisconsin, Minnesota, North Dakota and others that I think will soon join on. Because this is something that can provide help to people who need it.
DOBBS: Governor Rod Blagojevich, we thank you very much for being here.
BLAGOJEVICH: Thanks for having me.
DOBBS: Still ahead, accusations of cowardice on the presidential campaign trail today as the Bush and Kerry campaigns escalate their battle over military service and its relevance to holding the highest office in the land.
Also tonight, the sex scandal that brought down a governor. Tonight the man Governor Jim McGreevey of New Jersey calls his lover says the truth will come out.
And a population crisis looming for this country. The United States will be home to nearly 500 million people over the next half century. Two leading experts on environment and population growth join us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: President Bush today visited a Boeing plant that makes helicopters used by American troops in Iraq and Afghanistan. President Bush thanked employees at the Pennsylvania plant for their help in protecting our nation.
The issue of national security is at the forefront of this campaign now. Both candidates have questioned their opponent's record and courage. Bill Schneider has the report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BILL SCHNEIDER, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST (voice-over): The campaign battle is escalating dangerously. It started with an ad challenging John Kerry's credentials as a Vietnam War hero.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: John Kerry is no war hero.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He betrayed all his shipmates. He lied before the Senate.
SCHNEIDER: Outraged Kerry supporters are returning fire.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: George Bush used his father to get into the National Guard, was grounded and then went missing. Now he's allowing false advertising that attacks John Kerry.
SCHNEIDER: On another front, after Kerry talked about waging a more sensitive war on terror, Vice President Cheney saw an opening to challenge Kerry's toughness.
DICK CHENEY, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: America has been in too many wars for any of our wishes, but not a one of them was won by being sensitive.
SCHNEIDER: On Friday, an outraged Senator Tom Harkin said, "When I hear this coming from Dick Cheney, who was a coward, who would not serve during the Vietnam War, it makes my blood boil."
How did things get so ugly? One reason is that military credentials matter again, just as they did during the Cold War.
In the 1992 campaign, questions were raised about Bill Clinton's draft record. But the Cold War was over. Clinton got elected.
Questions were raised about George W. Bush's National Guard service in the 2000 campaign. But Bush got elected.
Nine-eleven brought the national security issue back front and center. In the 2002 midterm, Democrats were outraged by what they saw as unscrupulous charges against Georgia Senator Max Cleland, a disabled war veteran.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: As America faces terrorists and extremist dictators, Max Cleland runs television ads claiming he has the courage to lead.
SCHNEIDER: Cleland's defeat made him a martyr to Democrats. He helped fellow Vietnam veteran John Kerry win the 2004 Democratic nomination. With Kerry at the top of the ticket, Democrats now have credibility on national security.
BILL CLINTON, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: During the Vietnam War, many young men, including the current president, the vice president and me could have gone to Vietnam and didn't. John Kerry came from a privileged background. He could have avoided going, too, but instead he said, "Send me."
SCHNEIDER: Will they let Republicans challenge Kerry's credibility? Not without a fight.
Bill Schneider, CNN, Los Angeles.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: And we should point out that Senator Kerry tonight is condemning that MoveOn.org ad that criticizes President Bush's military record. That's the ad that you just saw in Bill Schneider's report. Senator Kerry's campaign issued a statement saying this should be a campaign of issue, not insults.
And that brings us to the subject of tonight's poll. The question: "Do you believe military service should be a primary qualification to serve as president?" Cast your vote at CNN.com/Lou. We'll have the results for you later during the broadcast.
Senator Kerry today took time off from campaigning. His running mate, Senator John Edwards, visited Arkansas and promoted the Democrats' plan to create jobs. That plan is one of many Kerry proposals that his critics question as to whether or not he can pay for it.
John King reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SEN. JOHN KERRY (D-MA), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I wanted America to know...
JOHN KING, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The candidate's book and his speeches are full of pricey promises.
KERRY: And we're going to lower the cost of health care. For every single one of you that gets it today, I'm going to raise the childcare credit $1,000.
But we're going to provide a $4,000 per pupil, per student tuition tax credit.
KING: There's more.
KERRY: And we're going to fully fund No Child Left Behind.
We will raise the funding for the Indian health system.
KING: And still more.
KERRY: That's why I've got a $2 billion effort that's going to go straight into clean coal technology.
KING: More than 100 new spending proposals.
And this.
KERRY: Our plan will cut the deficit in half by four years.
KING: Just the major Kerry health care and education initiatives would cost more than $800 billion over 10 years, about what would be saved by delivering on a promise to eliminate the Bush tax cuts for those making more than $200,000 a year.
THOMAS MANN, THE BROOKINGS INSTITUTION: He's got a shot at paying for those with the increased taxes on high-income households. But the rest of it is -- is somewhat problematic.
KING: Senator Kerry, like many candidates before him, says he will pay for the rest by closing tax loopholes and eliminating wasteful spending.
ROBERT BIXBY, CONCORD COALITION: Some of those are rather vague, loophole closings. The new programs are specific, and the offsets are in some cases very vague.
KING: The Democrat also says that, if need be, he will scale back his spending plans to put the government back on a pay as you go budget.
By the president's math, $2.2 trillion in new spending proposals.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: He said, "I'll just tax the rich." You've heard that talk before, haven't you? Rich hires accountants. And guess who gets stuck with the tab. You do!
KING: But Mr. Bush also might be promising more than he can deliver, calling for more tax cuts while also pledging to cut the deficit in half.
BIXBY: I don't think the promises of either one of them add up. Kerry has got too much spending in his plan to be able to get that sort of deficit reduction. And Bush cuts taxes by too much.
KING: And those who watch the campaign with green eyeshades say both campaign are all but ignoring the biggest spending dilemma on the horizon.
(on camera) The first wave of the so-called Baby Boom generation reaches retirement age in the next presidential term, creating a senior boom, strain on Social Security, and a major fiscal challenge for the next president.
John King, CNN, Washington.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: Coming up next, the sex scandal that rocked New Jersey and cost Governor Jim McGreevey his job. His accuser speaks out publicly for the first time.
Then, inside the asylum. Author Jed Babbin says the United Nations is inept, corrupt and old Europe, morally bankrupt. Jed Babbin is our guest tonight.
And this country faces a massive population explosion. The United Nations could be a nation of nearly 500 million people in 50 years. We'll hear some very sobering facts from two leading experts on both the environment and population growth. Next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ANNOUNCER: LOU DOBBS TONIGHT continues with more news, debate and opinion. Here now, Lou Dobbs.
DOBBS: New fallout tonight from New Jersey governor James McGreevey's resignation and his admission of a gay love affair. The former McGreevey aide who accused the governor of sexual harassment has now left the country, but is now for the first time speaking publicly.
Deborah Feyerick is here now with the report -- Deborah.
DEBORAH FEYERICK, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Lou, the man in the eye of the storm, Golan Cipel, thought he could slip away. Away from New Jersey, away from the scandal enveloping the governor there. He was wrong.
The former security advisor to James McGreevey went home to his parents in Israel. He was greeted by a mob of cameras, the beleaguered Cipel saying, "I've had a very difficult time."
Cipel was set to file a sexual harassment suit against the governor. Settlement talks broke down Thursday. Hours later, the governor announced he was gay and that he had a consensual affair.
Today, McGreevey was back running the state, holding terrorism drills with federal officials, then meeting with the man who will replace him if McGreevey stays until November.
New Jersey Republicans and now Democrats are trying to force McGreevey out in the next couple of weeks so that a special election can decide who will govern next.
Those close to McGreevey vow he will not go easily, an aide telling CNN, "We're not going anywhere."
In an op ed piece in "USA Today," the governor praises the things he's accomplished in the two years since he was elected.
Political forecasters predicted that things would get worse for the governor before getting better. CNN has learned that tomorrow one of his top fundraisers will plead guilty. The fundraiser under investigation for, among other things, violating campaign contribution laws -- Lou.
DOBBS: That story just continues to unfold. And none of the elements good for the governor.
FEYERICK: Very bad, as a matter of fact.
DOBBS: What is the speculation amongst strategists and the political wags, if you will, in New Jersey, as to whether McGreevey can withstand these calls for his immediate resignation?
FEYERICK: It's likely that he will withstand him. He has made a very calculated decision as to when he's going to step down.
The one person who could really perhaps prevent that is Senator Jon Corzine, but right now he has made no indication that he even wants to be governor. He is such a big player on the national level, that...
DOBBS: Could he -- Could he have some influence in persuading McGreevey to step out of office immediately?
FEYERICK: McGreevey has said if he gets a call from Corzine, he'll consider it. But that call hasn't come.
DOBBS: As they say, stay tuned. Deborah Feyerick, thank you.
Turning now to international politics. My next guest says the United Nations and the European Union are morally bankrupt and open enemies of the United States.
Jed Babbin is the author of a new book entitled "Inside the Asylum: Why the United Nations and Old Europe are Worse Than You Think." Babbin served as deputy undersecretary of defense under George H.W. Bush and joins us tonight from Washington.
Good to have you here.
JED BABBIN, AUTHOR, "INSIDE THE ASYLUM": Thanks for inviting me.
DOBBS: The idea that old Europe, and of course, old Europe is led by Germany and France and the United Nations, are morally bankrupt goes counter to the current Bush administration, which has now once again embraced the United Nations for help in Iraq and is working hard to re-establish relationships with both Germany and France.
How do you feel about that?
BABBIN: That's one of the reasons why I titled the book "Inside the Asylum," Lou. I mean, one of the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. And that's what we're doing in the U.N.
I mean, it's almost like we're Sisyphus and the U.N. is the boulder. Every time we get it close to the top of the hill, the Europeans push it back down again. We're just really not making any sense geopolitically and not doing ourselves very much help in going back to the U.N. yet again.
DOBBS: Well, once again, we are back with the United Nations and a role established for the U.N. in Iraq and apparently one at least this administration believes is essential to success in Iraq.
What would you have this administration -- what would you have any administration do with the institution that is the United Nations?
BABBIN: Well, I don't agree with a lot of the right wing wackos in this country. We can't just walk out and slam the door behind us.
What we have to do is gradually, over a period of years, create a political environment whereby the good nations of the world, the democracies, can walk with us out of the United Nations, without their leaders committing political suicide. We have to escape the quagmire of the U.N., which is created by the disparity in the voting power. If you look, Lou, at the 191 members of the U.N., fewer than 50 of them allow their citizens free and open elections and the right to vote. We have to get away from that.
DOBBS: Say that one more time. Give us that statistic one more time.
BABBIN: Fewer than 50 out of the 191 members of the U.N. are democracies that allow their people free and open elections and basic human rights. So whenever we take a vote before the U.N., whether it's in the security council, which we have to deal with France in, or in the general assembly, which is really just a mad hatter's tea party any more, we cannot get the votes. The haves don't have the votes. The have nots have the votes. Quite frankly, the whole issue of U.N. legitimacy is really, I think, a big scam, because you have all of these nations that are despots and dictators far outnumbering the good nations of the world. So they control it, we don't.
DOBBS: You reserve a chapter of your book for the United Nations' Food For Oil program, and you entitle that Kofigate. Why so?
BABBIN: Well, I wish I could claim the authorship of that particular term. I think that was coined by Bill Safire of the "New York Times." But the corruption of the U.N. goes all the way from the bottom to the top. It's not new. We saw it 20 years ago in UNESCO. The corruption there leading up to the head of UNESCO.
Here we see the corruption in the U.N.'s Oil For Food program being absolutely comprehensive, from the very lowest levels in the Baghdad offices of the Oil For Food program, which were actually reporting to Saddam's intelligence program all the way up to Benon Sevan, the head U.N. official running the program. It is quite possible we don't know, but it is quite possible that Mr. Annan himself, the secretary-general, was involved. He was at least knowledgeable of what wasn't happening, which was comprehensive audits and checking to see this program was well run.
DOBBS: Are you confident that Paul Volcker, the former Fed chairman, preeminent international banker now in charge of the U.N. investigation of the Oil For Food program, do you think he'll be successful in his investigation?
BABBIN: I'm quite confident he will not for one particular reason. Mr. Volcker is a man of great stature and honesty, but in order to succeed, he's going to have to get through all the documents that are in Iraq. And, number two, get cooperation from France, where most of the money went through and where many of the bribes were aimed, through the Jordanian government and the Jordanian banks. None of these people are going to cooperate with him. He can't compel cooperation. He's quite frankly on a fool's errand at this point.
DOBBS: Jed Babbin, no fool, he wrote "Inside The Asylum." A provocative book, examination of old Europe, the United Nations and our relationship with both. Thanks for being here.
BABBIN: Thank you. DOBBS: Taking a look now at some of your thoughts. Many of you wrote in about the U.N. attempt to interfere, or intervene, if you prefer, with U.S. border security and immigration policies.
Debra in South Glens Falls, New York. "If members of the United Nations are concerned about our policies concerning illegal aliens, I invite their home countries to let the world know that their country would welcome those turned from our borders."
And Carolyn in Orlando, Florida. "Why should the United Nations have any say over any U.S. policy? When it comes to our internal policies such as who to let into our country, they have no business interfering."
And Lazaro Rodriguez of League City, Texas. "Why can't the government bill Mexico for all medical expenses incurred by illegal immigrants who seek medical help while in this country? Mexico is always saying it wants its citizens to be treated fairly in the United States. If it cares so much about them, Mexico should take care of them, too."
We love to hear from you. Send us your thoughts at loudobbs@CNN.com.
Still ahead here, millions of illegal aliens entering this country absolutely undetected. Tonight the Department of Homeland Security appears to be putting sensitivity well ahead of effective policies against illegal aliens.
And this country could be home to nearly half a billion people by 2050. Is that explosive rate of population growth in this country sustainable? We'll hear from two leading experts on population and the environment.
And a small British village, all but washed away by a wall of water. The unbelievable story and pictures, still ahead. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Hundreds of thousands of Floridians tonight are still without power after Hurricane Charley swept across much of the state. Power officials warn that it could be yet another week before electricity is completely restored. The federal government has released $11 billion for the massive cleanup but the total cost of the destruction is expected to rise.
Nineteen people have been confirmed dead. Still, many are missing. And in New Mexico today, that state recovering from a huge mudslide that washed over much of the middle Rio Grande valley. Nearly 2 inches of rain fell in some areas along the Rio Grande valley. No injuries were reported.
And in England, a wall of water descended on a small tourist village. Emergency workers there in helicopters rescuing dozens of people from rooftops and trees as the water swept away cars and battered the small town. Many people were trapped in those cars. We have no word tonight on injuries.
In "Broken Borders" tonight we've reported here many times on a highly successful border patrol program to find and to arrest illegal aliens. That program was shut down after immigrants' rights groups complained that it was insensitive to illegal aliens. A group of frustrated citizens then demanded an explanation from a top White House official. Casey Wian reports from Los Angeles.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): In June, the border patrol's Temecula, California station arrested more than 400 illegal aliens as far as 100 miles from the Mexican border but the inland sweeps were suspended following complaints from immigrants' rights advocates.
Homeland Security Undersecretary Asa Hutchinson then promised to consider the sensitivities of interior immigration enforcement. Now he denies that inland sweeps have been stopped for good which didn't satisfy this group of angry citizens at a recent town hall meeting called by San Diego Congressman Darrell Issa.
REP. DARRELL ISSA (R), CALIFORNIA: The fact is we do not want to have people indiscriminately grabbed because they happen to be Hispanic.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's been implied that you all do not know where many of the illegal immigrants gather or accumulate, yet I'll bet every one in this room knows where illegal immigrants are.
WIAN: Some traveled hundreds of miles to demand that illegal aliens be arrested and deported and that the border be controlled.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I just wanted to know because the constitution mandates that the army and the military protect our borders, why isn't that happening?
ASA HUTCHINSON, BORDER & TRANSPORTATION SECURITY UNDERSECY.: The U.S. military would have a responsibility on the border if we were being attacked along the southern and northern border.
WIAN: "We are being attacked," they shout.
IRA MEHLMAN, FED. FOR AMER. IMMIGRATION REFORM: Asa Hutchinson and Darrell Issa deserve to be booed. They have an obligation to enforce these laws and it is evident from the reaction of people who live in the Temecula area and all the border areas in the southwest, that people want these laws enforced. They believe that the border patrol should be out there enforcing the law, arresting people who are violating our immigration laws.
WIAN: Hutchinson says his department's main focus is stopping terrorism.
(on camera): The Homeland Security Department is reviewing its interior immigration enforcement procedures to improve cooperation between the border patrol and immigration and customs enforcement. The agency says it is not considering geographic restrictions on border patrol agents. Casey Wian, CNN, Los Angeles.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: Tomorrow I'll be joined by California's state Senator Gil Cedillo who says illegal aliens are entitled to state driver's licenses. Senator Cedillo says he will fight for that right until he dies. And he'll be with me tomorrow evening.
Scientists are tonight ecstatic -- it's the only way to put it -- after the international spacecraft Cassini discovered two new moons that orbit the planet Saturn. The moon measure about two miles in diameter, they're orbiting 130 miles from the planet's center. Saturn now has 33 known moons but scientists believe they may discover even more moons during the Cassini mission.
Still ahead here tonight, population explosion, perhaps a crisis. A new report finds immigration is making this country's population one of the fastest growing on earth. I'll be talking with two experts on how that population explosion will affect our culture and environment and economy. That's coming up next.
And American think tanks influencing major U.S. policy decisions, including the war in Iraq. We'll have a special report on the reach of these so-called thought leaders. Those stories and a great deal more still ahead here tonight.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: A new report shows global population is exploding. World population will increase an astonishing 45 percent by 2050 according to the population reference bureau study.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS (voice-over): The United States will experience one of the most explosive increases of all. America's population will increase by a staggering 43 percent by 2050. We'll have more than 420 million people living in this country by then.
In Asia, another dramatic increase in population. Five point four billion people will live in Asia by 2050.
In Europe, a significant decline is forecast. Europe's population is expected to fall from 728 million to 668 million people.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: Joining me now to discuss this new study and the impact of the explosive growth rates here in this country, Carl Haub. He's the senior demographer from the Population Reference Bureau in Washington. And Sunny Lewis, she's the editor-in-chief of the Environmental News Service, joining us tonight from Honolulu.
Good to have you both here. Carl, let me ask you first, were you shocked, surprised, by the resultant growth in population by 2050?
CARL HAUB, POPULATION REFERENCE BUREAU: In this country? No, not really. The U.S. has been a country of immigration for many, many years. And we also have a higher birth rate than in Europe. So I mean, this is something that we have known for some time. Immigration has been rising a bit, and the -- some of the projections have risen for 20350. But I would say on balance most demographers probably would have expected that.
DOBBS: And world population growth, world population will be what by 2050?
HAUB: It will be around 9 billion. But that's very dependent upon what happens to the birth rate in developing countries. Is it going to come down in countries where, in fact, it isn't coming down today? Where it is coming down, will it continue to do so?
And these are some fairly major questions that we're just going to have to wait and see what the answers are.
DOBBS: As you talk about waiting to see what the answers are, Sunny, let me turn to you.
Is this something we should be waiting to see what the answers are, because we have a situation now where emerging economies, nations are bringing on resources, taking resources from the planet to provide for their populations naturally.
Is this sustainable, in your opinion?
SUNNY LEWIS, ENVIRONMENTAL NEWS SERVICE: Well, it seems to me, Lou, that with every person that is born, there is more pressure on the natural resources of this planet, especially on the water. And of course, on the food, because as you use the water to -- for agriculture. People eat a lot of meat and it takes more water to produce a pound of meat than it does a pound of grain. There's also pressure on energy sources, of course, and not only just fossil fuel, but the water is really the thing that is experiencing the greatest pressure today. I think we're going to see water wars. We're already seeing wars, especially in Central Africa, fought over natural resources, such as timber, water, diamonds and fuel.
DOBBS: Well, in this country right now, Carl, and I'd like to bring you in as demographer on this, because amongst other thing, China, as it is building its economy and raising the living standard for its people naturally, China has to provide natural resources to improve their standard of living. Steel, cement, energy, oil in particular, being consumed in enormous quantities each year in greater quantities by China and all other countries that are growing. What in the world does this study suggest to you about the impact on the world in which all of these people will soon be living?
HAUB: Well, I think basically, what we see here is that countries will have to manage growth better. Yes, certainly if everyone became a consumer at a U.S. level, there would be a problem. But one of the things we have today is the ability, is the ability to make it better. For example, have a lot transportation uses natural gas in cities in the developing world. They can leap frog, if you will, where we were in the 1950s.
DOBBS: They can, but do you know of a single country that's doing that because I certainly don't, Carl.
HAUB: There are some cities in India. Deli -- Deli has done this and Bombay. There are some cities.
DOBBS: India with more than 1 billion people. And By Your own forecast, India's supposed to take the lead in population growth by 2050, right?
HAUB: Yes, definitely. And of course, because China itself has such a low birth rate, but India will definitely pass China.
DOBBS: Sunny, as you consider all of this, we have a drought now in our western states, six years in duration. Some now speculate it is the worst drought and could well be the worst drought in 500 years. What is the impact, what should our policy makers, our lawmaker, our political and social leaders be doing here as they examine what's happening with natural resources and these kind of population projections?
LEWIS: Well, in my view, the drought everywhere in the world, as well as in the American west, is linked to our use of fuel and the burning of oil, coal and natural gas. Because global warming is a fact, and it is being seen right across the world right now. So, the quicker we can get to renewable sources of energy, the quicker we can get to renewable sources is really the key. Because then we will not be putting so much pressure on the world's -- the heat being trapped by the clouds that envelope the planet, trapping the heat close to the planet and causing the droughts that we see. Also, I want to say that, there are new techniques for creating desalination of sea water at a cheaper rate than we have seen in the past. Now, these techniques for example, the nuclear use -- use of nuclear power to desalinate water, as is happening in India and Pakistan, these...
DOBBS: Sunny, you just...
LEWIS: ... technologies bring their own problems.
DOBBS: Sunny, you just lost me when you started wanting to us nuclear power to drive the desalination, but that's going to be...
LEWIS: I don't want to necessarily, Lou, but I want to say that the International Atomic Energy Agency is working with India and Pakistan and does have projects in the works right now to do this. And this might solve our water problems. But of course, it brings other problems.
DOBBS: Indeed it does.
Carl, you get the last word here.
HAUB: Well, I think one of the things we have to keep in mind is that many developing countries, in fact, do want to slow their population growth. In fact, the vast majority do. But one of the things they often do not have is the financial resources to do so and the trained personnel. And here's where the wealthier countries of the world can help.
DOBBS: You know, Carl, as I hear you saying that, I almost -- I can almost hear screaming from some of these emerging economies and country, paternalism, patronization.
This is a wealthy country with great and immense resources, what should we be doing?
HAUB: What should we be doing in the developing countries?
DOBBS: No. How about right here at home?
HAUB: Oh. Right here in terms of slowing population growth?
DOBBS: You tell me.
HAUB: OK. Well, I don't think we have very much prospect for slowing population growth in the U.S.
DOBBS: All right, Carl with that we're going -- I'm sorry. We're going to have to run. I have already taken us well over time.
Carl Haub, thank you very much, a fascinating, if concerning study and Sunny, we thank you for being with us.
When we continue, many of our government policies are being shaped not at the White House or necessarily at Congress, but at this nation's leading think tanks. We'll have a special report on the high level of influence of those so-called thought leading institutions. Next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Tonight our special report on this country's so-called thought leaders, the think tanks. The think tanks that are made up of private citizens, scholars and many former elected officials and bureaucrats. They have tremendous influence on our government and its direction. Lisa Sylvester reports from Washington.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LISA SYLVESTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Three years before the Iraqi invasion plan for toppling Saddam Hussein had been discussed by a think tank called the Project For The New American Century. The think tank's associates included Vice President Dick Cheney, Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz and Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld. Their ideas eventually became official policy. The invasion of Iraq, the preemptive strike doctrine and the Star Wars missile defense program.
GARY SCHMITT, PROJECT FOR THE NEW AMERICAN CENTURY: The truth is 9/11 changed a lot of people's thinking and a lot of ways what we had to say made more -- was made much more relevant after 9/11.
SYLVESTER: The Project For The New American Century shows how much influence a think tank can have on government policy. The three think tanks most cited in the media this year are the left to moderate Brookings Institution, the conservative Heritage Foundation and the right leaning American Enterprise Institute.
Their opinions appear in newspaper op ed columns and their members are called to give expert testimony on Capitol Hill. A think tank's level of influence often depends on which political party is in power. Congressional leaders in the White House look to friendly think tanks to support their positions. Opinions are sometimes shaped to reach a given outcome, a practice even some in the industry question.
STEVEN CLEMONS, NEW AMERICA FOUNDATION: I would love to tell you that all of the work and research we do has a standard of objectivity that would meet the standard of anything out in sort of general academia. But that's simply not the case. We have large money coming in from institutions that generally want to make sure that the product produced fits what they would like to have.
SYLVESTER: And critics say there is a danger if the federal government is only listening to thought leaders who embrace their ideas.
JOHN PODESIA, CENTER FOR AMERICAN PROGRESS: There needs to be balance in that dialogue. There needs to be ideas on both sides, quite frankly. There needs to be debate and there needs to be critique on both sides.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SYLVESTER: What about the role of Congress? Isn't Congress supposed to be doing the political thinking and the policy making? Members of Congress are focusing on the day-to-day tasks and they often leave it up to the think tanks to do a lot of the long-range planning -- Lou.
DOBBS: Lisa, thank you very much. Lisa Sylvester from Washington.
On Wall Street, stocks close slightly higher. The Dow up 18 points. The Nasdaq up 12. The S&P up two. Oil prices hit another record high. Gasoline prices are expected to begin moving higher again as well. More evidence of the middle class squeeze. Christine Romans is here with a report -- Christine.
CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, the standards of living for American workers is closely tied to wage growth. Adjusted for inflation, wages are still falling, compared with a year ago. Average weekly earnings declined 7 cents of a percent in July. The average weekly paycheck, $526.94. One after another the government statistics bear it out. Wages and salaries are declining. Benefit costs are rising. A slack jobs market has taken its toll on what workers take home, and higher gas, health care and tuition costs only stretch the family dollar more.
Something to consider as well as Florida starts to rebuild and already housing market there may have trouble getting raw materials. Lumber prices soared today. There were already cement shortages before this hurricane hit. That's because every big construction project in China ripples all the way to the Gulf states. Now there's this rebuilding. Expect the scramble for cement, for lumber, for raw materials in the booming southeast to continue.
DOBBS: And as you reported, the middle class family budget dollar strained significantly. Thank you, Christine. Still ahead here, the results of our poll, a preview of what's ahead tomorrow. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: The results of our poll. Almost evenly divided. 51 percent of you say military service should be a primary qualification to serve as president. 49 percent say you do not.
Thanks for being with us. Join us tomorrow. California state Senator Gil Cedillo joins me. He says he will fight for illegal aliens' right to have driver's licenses until he dies. He'll be with us. We hope you are, too.
Has negative campaigning on the presidential election gone too far? Two different views in our face-off tomorrow. Please join us.
For all of us here, good night from New York. "ANDERSON COOPER 360" is next.
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