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Lou Dobbs Tonight

President and Kerry Prepare for Debates; U.N. Faces Criticism for Being Hostile to Freedom

Aired September 28, 2004 - 18:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR: Tonight, a bold demand from the government of Mexico. Mexico wants the United States to open our borders to everyone, including illegal aliens and possibly terrorists. We'll have a special report.
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GEORGE W. GRAYSON, WILLIAM & MARY: President Fox has raised hypocrisy from the level of an art form to an exact science.

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DOBBS: As President Bush and Senator Kerry prepare for their first so-called presidential debate, the vice presidential candidates lead the attack.

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RICHARD CHENEY, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Senator Kerry says he has a plan for Iraq, yet the plan he announced is not a plan.

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SEN. JOHN EDWARDS (D-NC), VICE PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: George Bush made this mess, and he can't fix it.

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DOBBS: Are the so-called presidential debates really presidential presentations? George Farah, executive director of open debates says the Republican and Democratic Parties are controlling the agenda. I'll be talking with George Farah, author of "No Debate," tonight.

The world is fighting a bloody war against radical Islamist terrorists, but the United Nations is standing on the sidelines. Critics say the United Nations is actually hostile to the principles of freedom itself. The story and Victor Davis Hanson is my guest.

The president of Hispanics Across America, Fernando Mateo, says millions of illegal aliens already in this country should have U.S. driver's licenses. Fernando Mateo is my guest. And stunning new discoveries about the origins of the universe, the mysteries of space and time. Astrophysicist Neil Tyson is the author of "Origins" and the host of a breathtaking new PBS documentary. He's my guest.

ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT for Tuesday, September 28. Here now for an hour of news, debate and opinion is Lou Dobbs.

DOBBS: Good evening.

Tonight, President Bush and Senator Kerry are out of sight. They're preparing for their first so-called presidential debate Thursday, but their campaigns are stepping up their offensives, with the vice presidential candidates, in fact, leading the attacks.

Senator John Edwards said President Bush has made a mess of Iraq, and the president can't fix it. Vice President Dick Cheney declared Senator Kerry to be unfit to lead the war on terror.

We begin our coverage tonight with Elaine Quijano near the president's ranch in Crawford, Texas -- Elaine.

ELAINE QUIJANO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, as you said, no public events for President Bush today, but his running mate, Vice President Dick Cheney, blasted Senator Kerry on the campaign trail today. The vice president making two stops to two states that Mr. Bush lost narrowly in 2000, Wisconsin and Iowa.

In Iowa, Mr. Cheney slammed Senator Kerry, saying that the senator had demonstrated, quote, "vacillation and indecision," end quote. Mr. Cheney arguing that would make Kerry ineffective in fighting terrorism.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHENEY: Senator Kerry's continued wavering in this campaign, opposing the war, but claiming the president's plan is his own, calling himself an alliance builder, then belittling America's closest friends shows an agenda not of conviction, but of political opportunism, and his record establishes that he is not prepared to lead America in the war on terror.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

QUIJANO: Now, as you might expect, the Kerry campaign is firing back. They issued a statement, the end of which reads, quote, "No matter how much Dick Cheney stretches the truth, the war has become the quagmire it is today because of the way George Bush rushed into Iraq without allies or a plan to win the peace period." That statement from the Kerry campaign this afternoon.

As for President Bush, again, he is staying out of sight. Really informal debate preparations continuing. Aides say that he is going over questions with adviser Karen Hughes, also taking some time to do fishing and biking while he's here -- Lou.

DOBBS: Elaine Quijano.

Thank you very much.

Top advisers to Senator Kerry today launched new attacks against President Bush, targeting the president's record on Iraq and the war on terror. Those issues will be at the forefront of Thursday's so- called presidential debate in Florida.

Frank Buckley reports from Dodgeville, Wisconsin.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

FRANK BUCKLEY, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Senator John Kerry remained out of view at this resort in rural Wisconsin, as he prepared for Thursday's debate.

SUSAN RICE, KERRY ADVISER: He's marshalling the facts, he's marshalling the argument, and the American people are going to be very impressed when they see him on Thursday night.

BUCKLEY: While Kerry prepared, his running mate, Senator John Edwards, campaigned in Pennsylvania. Edwards pressing the campaign's effort to try to frame the upcoming debate as a critique of President Bush's handling of the war in Iraq.

EDWARDS: We know what needs to be done in Iraq, but the honest truth is in order to do it, we're going to have to have a fresh start with a new president. It cannot be done. George Bush made this mess, and he can't fix it.

BUCKLEY: The Kerry campaign also began airing an ad in battleground states featuring President Bush on the deck of the USS Abraham Lincoln.

ANNOUNCER: There he goes again. George Bush said Iraq was mission accomplished. Sixteen months later, he still doesn't get it.

BUCKLEY: And while new polling suggests the majority of Americans believe things are going badly in Iraq, it also suggests voters may not be quite ready to change commanders in chief. When asked who they trust more as commander in chief, 56 percent chose President Bush, while only 40 percent chose Senator Kerry.

Kerry advisers say the debate will sway voters their way when the senator appears side by side with the president.

RICE: President Bush has given the American people no idea how he's going to get us out of this mess. It's that reality that the president is trying to obscure by making up ridiculous charges about John Kerry's past and his positions on Iraq. The public knows what's going on, and, when they have a chance to see the two of them face to face, it will be absolutely crystal clear that the president has just been playing games.

BUCKLEY (on camera): John Kerry's described as fired up as he prepares for Thursday's debate. Kerry aides saying they see it as another opportunity to put President Bush on the defensive about his handling of the war in Iraq.

Frank Buckley, CNN, Dodgeville, Wisconsin.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

DOBBS: My next guest says the upcoming debates will be nothing more than glorified news conferences. George Farah is the author of "No Debate: How the Republican and Democratic Parties Secretly Control the Presidential Debates." In the book, he claims the major parties have hijacked these debates and killed any chances for an honest exchange of ideas.

George Farah joins me now from Washington, D.C.

George, good to have you with us.

GEORGE FARAH, AUTHOR, "NO DEBATE: HOW THE REPUBLICAN AND DEMOCRATIC PARTIES SECRETLY CONTROL THE PRESIDENTIAL DEBATES": Thank you for having me, Lou.

DOBBS: Let's start with the first question. Should we even call these -- and you may have noticed, I refer to them as so-called presidential debates -- should we even call them debates?

FARAH: No, these are really glorified bipartisan press conferences. These are forums in which the candidates' top lawyers have eliminated any element of spontaneity or authentic discourse from these forums.

The candidates cannot talk to each other. They've hand-picked all the questioners. They have limited response times, so they're just issuing a series of memorized sound bites.

These are not the Lincoln-Douglas debates. These are exclusionary press conferences.

DOBBS: These aren't even, in point of fact, the Bush-Gore debates, are they?

FARAH: No, things have actually gotten worse. For example, the town hall debate, all the questioners in the auditorium have to submit their questions in advance to a moderator. The moderator throws out the questions he doesn't like, and, if the town hall audience questioner asks the question that deviates in any way of the question he submitted on the index card, the monitor can cut him off. This wasn't the case in 2000.

DOBBS: But the moderators are amongst the most respected in the news industry. The participants, the panelists -- surely, there will be as rough and tumble as the questioners follow up their initial questions and bore in for specific answers.

FARAH: Lou, no. Afraid not. Each candidate's got two minutes to answer a question. Then their opponent has 90 seconds. And, if the monitor chooses, there's a 30-second follow-up question. That is it. There's no rebuttal. There's no surrebuttal. The candidates can't talk to each other.

This isn't a debate! This is a glorified bipartisan press conference, and, of course, you're not going to see any third-party challengers, and this is a consequence of the Republican/Democratic Parties secretly controlling the process through a compliant commission.

DOBBS: George, I have to tell you I am -- I'm pining for the days of the League of Women Voters. They could be irascible, if you will, but they were certainly independent. Is there any chance of interesting them in taking over from this bipartisan debate commission?

FARAH: Lou, you hit the problem on the money. The League hosted of these events from 1976 until 1984. They did a remarkable job.

In advance of each debate, they would negotiate aggressively with the candidates to ensure that popular independent challengers like John B. Anderson were included and to ensure the formats were engaging and revealing, and that's precisely why the parties took over.

They didn't like an uppity woman's organization controlling these -- the most important public forums, and so they created a Commission on Presidential Debates, which, by design, submits the demands of Republican and Democratic Parties.

We've created a Citizens Debate Commission to host future debates in 2008, 2012 that rather than submit behind closed doors to the demands of the nominees will fight on behalf of the public interest for aggressive formats, the inclusion of candidates like Nader, Buchanan and Perot, and, of course, addressing a broad array of issues the American people want to hear about.

DOBBS: To hear about those issues, how can our viewers here tonight find out more about your organization, George?

FARAH: Lou, please have your listeners visit our Web site, opendebates.org. These candidates are not gods. They are public servants, and they're fighting for your vote. If you demand real debates, they will give them to you.

They cannot avoid debates in 2004 without paying a heavy political price, and that's because you demand them. So please help us achieve and protect our most important and sacred public forum by visiting our Web site opendebates.org.

DOBBS: To be clear, it's unlikely that you'll be able to have much influence on these upcoming presidential presentations.

George Farah, we thank you very much for being here.

The Web site address again is opendebates.org.

Thank you, again, George Farah.

FARAH: Thank you, Lou, for having me. Appreciate it. DOBBS: Coming up next here, an end to the United Nations. Why historian Victor David Hanson says the United States has become hostile to the very principles of freedom. He is my guest.

And also ahead here, tracking terrorists. The new technology that is helping the Department of Homeland Security catch illegal aliens and potential terrorists entering this country by air.

And welcome, neighbor! A controversial proposal not to secure the Mexican border at all. In fact, to throw it wide open. We'll have that special report on the astonishing initiative taken by the Mexican government of Vicente Fox.

Stay with us.

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DOBBS: The United Nations faces criticism for its unwillingness to stand up to the tyranny of radical Islamist terrorism and its government sponsors. Some critics say the United Nations, in fact, has become an enemy of liberty itself.

One of those critics is military historian Victor Davis Hanson. In an op-ed article in "The Washington Journal," he wrote "It is about time to think the unthinkable: The United Nations has not been beneficial, neutral, but increasingly hostile to freedom."

Victor Davis Hanson joins me now from Fresno, California, a senior fellow at the Hoover Institution.

Good to have you with us.

The very idea, Victor, that the United Nations is not committed to the war against radical Islamist terrorism is, I think, perhaps to many people, shocking. What do you mean when you say that?

VICTOR DAVIS HANSON, HOOVER INSTITUTION: Well, one great challenge of our time right now is Islamic fascism, and it's sweeping the globe, and we don't see any concerted effort by the U.N. either to condemn it, to ostracize it, to form a global posse to pursue it.

We have people being killed in Darfur, Sudan. We've seen nothing. We saw people killed in Rwanda. We see nothing. The Balkan, nothing. So it's got the impotence of the old League of Nations but without the League of Nations' idealism and allegiance to western ideas of freedom.

And you look at the membership of the U.N. Either a half to a third of the membership are not democratic, so it's almost post-modern or surreal for the president to address a body and ask for support for democratic reform when, if that reform were to take place, a great number of the people and the very audience he was speaking to would probably be out of power.

DOBBS: You also say that Kofi Annan, the secretary general of the United Nations, is the symbol of all that's wrong with the institution. How so?

HANSON: Well, it's the hypocrisy that he represents. He's someone from the so-called former Third World. He's well-spoken. He gets a pass from the New York media because he professes utopian idealism. But in the real here and now, he oversaw probably the greatest financial scandal of our time.

Billions of dollars were siphoned off in the Food for Oil Program, and that allowed a lot of Iraqis to go hungry and die and brought a lot of cynicism to the integrity of the U.N., and yet he's been given a pass by both the press and all auditory agencies.

DOBBS: And why do you think that is, Victor?

HANSON: I think it's because we have this ends justifying the means. We feel that he represents the higher goal of globalism or utopianism or pacifism, and, in the here and now, we're willing to overlook whatever fallacies or foibles he has to employ or use or overlook on the way to this nirvana of all of us getting along without war or bickering on a global scale.

DOBBS: You're also critical for the -- of the United Nations for the makeup of the Security Council itself. What would you have the United Nations do in that regard?

HANSON: Well, the Security Council, as a General Assembly, represents the world of about 1946. We have a billion people who are democratic and nuclear in India. They're not on the Security Council; the second biggest economy in the world in Japan, not on the Security Council; an emerging country in Brazil, not on the Security Council.

And yet we have France, a declining power, fifth or sixth largest economy, only 80 million people. It uses a Security Council to balance or harass or constrain the United States who it seems to have this perpetual envy over.

Then we have China who's not democratic and uses the Security Council to be a hindrance to the advance of reform and efforts to spread democracy.

The same thing with the General Assembly. We could have a simple rule that said, "If you want to be a member of the General Assembly, you should have a democratic institution."

DOBBS: The institution of the United States itself, Victor -- should it, in your judgment, exist at all?

HANSON: Well, I think it -- we could see it as a valuable place to speak, peacekeeping, UNICEF, UNESCO, AIDS help; in other words, all the things it does other than the really important political and global and strategic and military.

But, from now on, I think the United States increasingly understands that if it's going to act somewhere in the Balkans or it's going to act in Iraq or act in Afghanistan, it's going to have to make a coalition of willing democratic nations, and it can't worry whether China, who swallowed Tibet to the silence of the U.N., or whether Syria, who swallowed Lebanon to the silence of the U.N., objects over the principles.

DOBBS: Victor Davis Hanson, we thank you for being with us.

HANSON: Thank you, again. I appreciate it.

DOBBS: Tonight's thought is on the United Nations. "You can safely appeal to the United Nations in the comfortable certainty that it will let you down." Those the words of Conor Cruise O'Brien.

Still ahead here tonight, securing our skies. The Department of Homeland Security says it will soon be able to catch even more illegal aliens, drug smugglers and terrorists. We'll tell you how they're planning to do that next.

And then, border outrage. How the Mexican government is working to make its border with this country all but nonexistent.

Also tonight, the great American giveaway. Another state considering giving driver's licenses to immigrants and illegal aliens. Fernando Mateo of Hispanics Across America will be here to tell us how he feels this issue should be resolved.

All of that and a great deal more still ahead here tonight.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ANNOUNCER: LOU DOBBS TONIGHT continues. Here now for more news, debate and opinion, Lou Dobbs.

DOBBS: The Department of Homeland Security today unveiled a new radar system that can track 24,000 aircraft simultaneously. The system is designed to catch drug smugglers, illegal aliens and terrorists who are flying across our borders.

Casey Wian reports from Riverside, California.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): These air detection specialists are guarding the nation's borders from a room deep inside MARCH Air Reserve Base. They're the first line of defense against a terrorist attack or illegal alien smuggling operation from the air.

RON COLLINS, DETECTION SYSTEM SPECIALIST: You've got military on the net. You've got the NORAD command. You've got the Northeast, the Southeast, the Western air defense, et cetera, like that, all the military. You've got FAA.

WIAN: An upgraded tracking system with 450 radar antennas, three times as many as the old one, has been in place for two weeks. It's already paying off.

JEFF HOLLIMAN, DETECTION SYSTEM SPECIALIST: A good example of that is, yesterday, as the hurricane moved through Florida, a smuggler attempted to take advantage of that and came in from the Bahamas, went directly into South Florida.

Our facility picked him up, determined that he was a threat, managed to figure out exactly where he was going, brought local law enforcement out and actually diverted one of our P-3 aircraft to intercept the aircraft just as it landed, got a description, and we went ahead and made a seizure. In that case, we got five illegal aliens in the aircraft.

WIAN: The Air and Marine Operations Center tracks more than 80,000 non-commercial flights each month. It investigates and sometimes intercepts an average of 30 suspicious flights every day. That and recent warnings that al Qaeda plans to use general aviation aircraft to attack the United States has prompted some in Congress to call the nation's aviation system vulnerable.

TOM RIDGE, SECRETARY, HOMELAND SECURITY: We're not looking to create a failsafe system, that would be impossible to do, but, with the cooperation of the general aviation community, we've certainly reduced the risk of an airplane being turned into a missile.

WIAN: The Homeland Security Department has tightened some security procedures. Just last week, it began prohibiting flight training schools from admitting aliens, unless the Transportation Security Administration determines the potential student is not a threat to aviation or national security.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WIAN: The main focus of the air tracking system used to be drug smugglers. Now it's terrorists and illegal aliens. Supervisors here say because their technology has improved, they're starting to see fewer people trying to sneak into our country from the air -- Lou.

DOBBS: Casey, thank you very much.

Casey Wian reporting from Riverside, California.

Tonight, we're taking a closer look at one of the biggest problems in securing this nation's southern border. One even more disturbing than rampant drug and human smuggling. The problem is the Mexican government itself, which, instead of policing the border with the United States, instead advocates an open border with this country. That agenda is working directly against U.S. efforts to stem the flow of illegal aliens into this country.

Peter Viles reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

PETER VILES, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It seems almost laughable, but it's true. Three years after the September 11 attacks, the Mexican government of Vicente Fox still advocates an open border with the United States. Just this summer, a top Mexican official said, quote, "I would like to see a border similar to the one that Europe has now." Of course, that idea is a nonstarter. At a time of war, it would effectively put American border security in the hands of the Mexican government. But the damage, analysts say, is that talk of an open border encourages more illegal immigration from Mexico.

DAN STEIN, FAIR: We want the president of Mexico and his administration to stop creating expectations that are unrealistic. It's contributing to a large-scale outflow, millions and millions of people from Mexico who believe that eventually there's going to be a virtual border, a nonexistent border between our two countries. That is not the case.

VILES: Even on American soil, Fox has lobbied in support of Mexican immigrants. This was at the president's ranch earlier this year.

VICENTE FOX, PRESIDENT OF MEXICO (through translator): It is clear to us that the people who come to this country make a significant contribution to the American economy.

VILES: While Fox pushes for greater freedom in the North, it's worth noting Mexico does not believe in opening its own southern border with Guatemala and Belize.

GRAYSON: President Fox has raised hypocrisy from the level of an art form to an exact science. He wants to move toward an open border between Mexico and the United States. At the same time, he's beginning to crack down on Central Americans and others who cross illegally into Mexico's South.

VILES: The Fox administration did not respond to CNN's request for comment on its border policies.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

VILES: And there is one aspect of this Mexican agenda that Washington actually agrees with. It has to do with facilitating greater and greater volumes of trade across the border. That is why Washington is working with Mexico City to open up more and more of these fast lanes at border crossings. The goal this year, Lou, was to add five more of these fast lanes on that southern border -- Lou.

DOBBS: Peter Viles, thank you very much.

This, three weeks after "TIME" magazine on its cover reported a staggering three million illegal aliens will enter this country this year.

President Bush spoke last night about this country's border patrol crisis with Fox News Channel's Bill O'Reilly. President Bush explained why he says his current policy will eventually be effective.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I happen to believe the best way to enhance the border is to have temporary worker cards available for people, and I think it's best for the employers who are employing these people. I think it is best for the employees that are trying to find work. I think the long-term solution for this issue on our border is for Mexico to grow a middle class. That's why I believe in NAFTA.

BILL O'REILLY, THE O'REILLY FACTOR: We'll be in the grave.

BUSH: I don't think so. It's happening.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

DOBBS: President Bush said border security is improving, and he would not use the military to improve security along our borders.

Police in Oakland, California, tonight are once again preparing to increase security on local roads and highways. The Oakland Police Department last week suspended its DUI checkpoint program after Hispanic activists protested the program. Those activists claim the road blocks were targeting illegal aliens with no licenses or insurance.

Under a new order from Oakland's Mayor Jerry Brown, police will resume the DUI checkpoints at his instruction. There is a catch: Residents will be told the general area of those checkpoints in advance.

The New York Department of Motor Vehicles is now considering a proposal that would give driving permits to hundreds of thousands of illegal aliens. Some immigrant group are already opposing the plan saying it discriminates against illegal aliens and could lead to arrests and deportation.

But the author and sponsor of the proposal Fernando Mateo says his plan is a compromise. He's president of the New York State Federation of Taxi Drivers and president of Hispanics Across America and joins me here tonight.

Fernando, good to have you here.

FERNANDO MATEO, HISPANICS ACROSS AMERICAN: Thank you.

DOBBS: Immigrant groups are already opposed to your plan. Why?

MATEO: We expect for people to oppose any plan that's put out there because...

DOBBS: Welcome to America, right?

MATEO: Exactly. But I believe that what we need to do is give this governor, Governor George Pataki, an opportunity to see different programs, to see different issues that can be brought to his table.

DOBBS: Fernando, as I understand it, what you're really proposing is something very similar to what Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger in California has asked for in a differentiated type of license for aliens? MATEO: That's correct. What we don't want is for Governor Pataki to feel like Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger felt, that they were trying to shove something down his throat. We need to understand that the first -- the most important thing to our nation is the security of our nation. Second to that, there are issues...

DOBBS: Amen, brother. That's all I can say to that.

MATEO: Yes, absolutely. But second to that, we have an issue where New York State has maybe 700,000 immigrants that obtained the license without a Social Security number.

DOBBS: You mean they're illegal?

MATEO: No, they're not illegal. A lot of them obtained it legally. Some obtained them illegally. But the bottom line is that if there are 700,000 people that own small businesses, small landscaping businesses, grocery stores and they need the vehicles to and from work, you've got to give them an opportunity.

DOBBS: Well, we don't gotta because they're here illegally.

MATEO: We should give them an opportunity.

DOBBS: Well, I think that's questionable, too. We've got to talk about what the reality is. The reality is this very plan has been put into effect in Tennessee. It's been stalled because immigrant groups are attacking it because you're differentiating between illegal aliens and legal immigrants.

MATEO: I think that the people that are attacking it are the people -- the same people that don't want it to succeed. We're looking for a compromise. If national -- if the national security issue is they don't want these people to use this driver's license as an I.D., well, our compromise works. Why? Because it will not be an I.D. It will be an immigration driver's permit. Immigrant driver's permit means that that person would be able to drive.

DOBBS: But you and I both know the reason that's being opposed by these immigrant activist groups, because they want the whole deal.

MATEO: No, it's because they don't want any deal because they're not willing to compromise.

DOBBS: Right, but -- if you're...

MATEO: If you're willing to compromise...

DOBBS: What they want is they want to use that driver's license, undifferentiated from a regular driver's license for illegal citizens so they can use it as a breeder document without wasting their time on things like amnesty and citizenship processing.

MATEO: We need -- we need to basically understand that that's not going to happen. Homeland Security isn't going to allow it. I believe that we need to present to this governor, the governor of the State of New York, the opportunity to say, yes, this sounds good, I think something like this could work.

DOBBS: Politically, what happens to Governor Pataki, Governor Schwarzenegger? Seventy-one percent of the people surveyed in this country do not want illegal aliens to be given amnesty. They want this carefully, carefully controlled. What do you say?

MATEO: We're not giving them amnesty, and we're not giving them a driver's license. We're giving them a permit to be able to get to and from work, a permit to take their kids to school. Let's face it they're not going anywhere.

You know what they're doing now, is they're going in droves to -- they're going -- they're rolling in droves to Michigan, turning in their New York State license and obtaining an out-of-state license and working with that.

I think that we need to have a little compassion. This country wouldn't be what it is...

DOBBS: You mean...

MATEO: ... if it weren't for immigrants.

DOBBS: Immigrants...

MATEO: Immigrants.

DOBBS: ... is one thing. Illegal immigrants is another, and I don't think...

MATEO: It's...

DOBBS: Listen, you and I are going to be sitting here agreeing violently if we keep this up.

MATEO: OK.

DOBBS: I happen to think your plan makes great sense...

MATEO: Great.

DOBBS: ... and I happen to...

MATEO: So you endorse it?

DOBBS: I...

MATEO: It's -- no, no, but, I mean, you agree...

DOBBS: I happen to think it makes sense.

MATEO: You think if you think it's...

DOBBS: I think it's -- I think it is an interesting concept that may resolve national security issues.

MATEO: Exactly.

DOBBS: It may resolve a whole host of issues, but those who would think of it as de facto citizenship -- that is where we have a problem.

We're out of time, partner. I just want...

MATEO: We don't want to encourage illegal immigration, but what we want to do is grandfather those that have New York State driver's licenses at this point.

DOBBS: We've got a ways to talk, Fernando, but I appreciate you being here.

MATEO: Thank you, Lou.

DOBBS: Thanks a lot, and thanks for putting some rationale proposals on the table in a time of great irrationality.

MATEO: You always have to be rational if you want to succeed.

DOBBS: I wish that were true all the time, but, Fernando, in your case, it is, and I thank you for being here.

MATEO: Thank you.

DOBBS: Fernando Mateo.

That brings us to the subject of tonight's poll. Do you believe illegal aliens should be granted driver's licenses? Yes or no. Cast your vote at cnn.com/lou. We'll have the results for you here later in the broadcast.

Taking a look now at some of your thoughts.

Bill Robison of Portland, Oregon, wrote in to say, "Lou, after all of the big American corporations have outsourced our jobs to China and India, I think I will sneak across the Mexican border. Do you think the Mexican government will give me a driver's license, allow me to vote in their elections, put my kids through school, provide my family health care and provide me a retirement when I get old?"

Ivan in Surprise, Arizona, "Lou, I cannot express adequately how sorry I feel for those poor CEOs who outsourced their employees' jobs to China and now are being victimized by patent laws. Perhaps their former employees could take up a collection for them. As Lucy in Peanuts would say, "You brought it on yourself, Charlie Brown."

We love hearing from you. Send us your thoughts at loudobbs.com. Send us your name and address because each of you whose e-mail is read on the broadcast receives a free copy of my new book on the assault on the American middle class, "Exporting America."

Still ahead here tonight, new developments in Ralph Nader's fight to be on the ballot this presidential election. Three of the country's top political journalists join me. And saluting America's coaches. How one soccer coach inspires her athletes to excel on the field and most importantly in life.

And then Out of This World. Astrophysicist Neil Tyson will join me. He'll be sharing startling new discoveries about the beginning of our universe, the beginning of life itself.

All of that and a great deal more still ahead here tonight. Please stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: I want to bring you up to date quickly on Ralph Nader's battle to be on the ballot as an independent presidential candidate across the entire country.

The Supreme Court today refused to put Nader on Oregon's presidential ballot, but New Mexico's Supreme Court ordered Nader's name on that state's ballot. Nader a critical factor in New Mexico four years ago, where he won 4 percent of the vote and President Bush won that state by only 366 votes.

Nader will now be on the ballot in at least 30 states this November, and several cases are pending in other states.

Joining me now, three of the country's top journalists, Ron Brownstein of the "Los Angeles Times," Karen Tumulty of "TIME" magazine, Roger Simon "U.S. News & World Report" from Washington, D.C.

Ralph Nader is on his way to being a factor. Is that right, Ron?

RON BROWNSTEIN, THE "LOS ANGELES TIMES": Well, assuming John Kerry gets close enough to make it matter. Right now, given the kind of consensus of the polls -- Bush is about 6 points ahead -- Ralph Nader would be an irritant to John Kerry, but he would like to get to the point where Ralph Nader would be a problem, yes.

In a number of these states -- New Mexico, which Al Gore actually carried -- I think you meant to say -- narrowly in 2000, Florida, others, Nader could matter. First, Kerry has to close the gap, though.

DOBBS: Karen, I'd like to hold this up for our voters see, if they can, if I can ask our director to come in. This poll -- this ad in today's "New York Times" really criticizing the Gallup poll for its reporting of an 8 percent lead for President Bush. What do you -- what's your reaction to their criticism, this group, of the Gallup organization? Karen?

KAREN TUMULTY, "TIME" MAGAZINE: Well, I believe that's a moveon.org ad and...

DOBBS: Right, it is.

TUMULTY: ... it is -- it's interesting. It tells you sort of what we've come to in this country, that, you know, we have seen a whole lot of polls coming out over the last few weeks with a whole lot of different results, almost all of them showing President Bush ahead, but by varying margins. And it is interesting that we are now so polarized in this country that people assume that if they don't like what they're looking at that there must be some nefarious agenda at work.

DOBBS: Is this a cultural shift, Roger, we should worry about, as the two candidates face off in what looks like I think we can safely call a so-called presidential debate this Thursday?

ROGER SIMON, "U.S. NEWS & WORLD REPORT": Yes, I am sorry. A cultural shift, Lou?

DOBBS: A cultural shift in which we will see actual exchanges of honest, real, concrete languages and ideas and...

SIMON: Oh, no. There's no shift there.

DOBBS: ... we'll not be dealing with perceptions, we'll be dealing with reality, particularly the reality of the American people?

SIMON: No, it's a theatrical performance. These guys are spending time right now studying answers that have been prepared for their staff so they can regurgitate it on the air, and the press will judge them on their theatrical abilities.

It's not -- it's been pointed out many times this is not a debate. It's a series of two-minute-and-30-second infomercials. In a sense, there's nothing wrong with that. At least the American public get to learning something about these guys, but they will not see their combat skills.

DOBBS: Oh, Roger, I hate to hear you say there's nothing wrong with that because, I mean, I don't know about you guys, I want to see these guys go at each other tooth and nail and just go after each other. I want -- I want follow-up questions. I want rebuttal. I want people held accountable for what they say, for what they do. Don't you?

TUMULTY: Well, my son's -- in my son's preschool, this would have been called parallel play, is basically what you're looking at.

DOBBS: I don't think like that. It's an either an answer to education or to the presidential debate...

(AUDIO GAP)

BROWNSTEIN: Yes, you know, look, I agree it would be better if they had more exchange. But also agree with Roger. I mean, there are a lot of people out there amazing to say, that are not watching CNN or reading "The L.A. Times" or "Time" magazine or "U.S. News..."

DOBBS: This must be a very small group.

BROWNSTEIN: A few of them out there. And for that audience, they are going to get more information of what these candidates are opposing and the differences between them. Even though that the opportunity for direct exchange is limited, there is enormous premium for the candidates on defining themselves by explaining the contrast with their opponent.

Really what John Kerry did not do for five or six months after winning the Democratic nomination. He minimized the contrasts. Since the Republican Convention, he's tried to accentuate that again. And in a way, Lou, also helps voters understand where he is. They need the point where hey can push off and see the differences. So, in that sense, the debate, whatever you call it, is a good thing.

DOBBS: In presidential presentation, as I will call it here at least here tonight, Karen, do you think expectations are simply -- President Bush is an interesting position. Expectations are high, that he will perform extremely well, and it seems that Senator Kerry's a beneficiary right now of at least moderated expectations.

TUMULTY: Well, I think, too, the real factor here is that President Bush doesn't have as much that he needs to accomplish with this debate. In our latest poll, 1 in 5 voters say they still don't know enough about John Kerry to have an opinion about him one way or the other. And what, you know five weeks out.

SIMON: Think Karen is right. But I also think that President Bush does have a burden. He's the president of the United States, and he better look presidential. He better look like he's in command of the facts. He better look like he has some ideas for the future of this country. And he better look like he know house to solve a few problems. It's not like he's going into this with no expectations at all.

BROWNSTEIN: You know, in 2000, Lou, president -- then candidate Bush benefited...

DOBBS: Very quickly, Ron, we're really on a crunch for time.

BROWNSTEIN: 2000, Bush benefited because he was more gent that people expected. Not expectations but perceptions of Kerry are so negative now, that he doesn't have strong beliefs, that he isn't clear on his conventions, that maybe relatively easier for him to be more of those things than people are led to believe over the last several weeks.

DOBBS: Ron, Karen, Roger, thank you all, as we shape up our expectation for this upcoming Thursday presidential presentation. Thank you, all.

A reminder now to vote in our poll. The question, do you believe illegal aliens should be granted drivers licenses, yes or no. Cast you vote at cnn.com/lou. We'll have the results for you a little in the broadcast.

Still ahead here, a powerful earthquake has hit California. The strongest in California in quite some time. We'll have a report.

In our special report tonight, "America Works," focusing on, of all people, coaches. Some people say this college coach in fact has created a dynasty in women's soccer, and a great trajectory for her players in life. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: Oil prices today topped $50 a barrel in trading. More evidence tonight that those high oil prices and a weak job market are putting pressure on this countries middle class.

Joining me now, Christine Romans, with a story -- Christine.

CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, consumer confidence fell again in September. The conference board blames high gas prices and the labor market. More than 28 percent of consumer surveys say jobs are hard to get. Add in soaring healthcare premiums, it's no wonder that consumers and investors are less optimistic.

A study by consumer advocate, Families USA, found premiums paid by American worker rose 3 times faster than average earnings over the past four years. Worker health premiums cost grew almost 36 percent when average earnings rose only 12 percent. In fact, 14 million Americans have healthcare cost amounting to a quarter of their gross annual pay.

Today, Delta Airlines' employees were told...

DOBBS: Wait a minute, could you say that again.

ROMANS: Fourteen million Americans are paying their healthcare premiums a quarter of their pay, their gross pay annually. Today, Delta Airlines found out -- those employees found out they're going to have to foot more of their healthcare bill, they're going to get a 10 percent pay cut. Also Motorola is cutting about 1, 000 jobs. All of that, and the market closed higher today after a week of losses, the Dow rose 88 points, the Nasdaq rose almost 10, the S&P gained 6.

DOBBS: You've got to love Wall Street. Thank you very much, Christine Romans.

Well, the University of Florida launched its women's soccer team back in 1984, it recruited then 26-year-old Becky Burleigh to be the head coach. Ten years later, she's led the team to a national championship, creating what some have called a new dynasty in women's soccer.

Bill Tucker has her story in tonight's "America Works."

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BECKY BURLEIGH, SOCCER COACH, UNIV. FLORIDA: Hi, go hard, go hard, go hard. Come on! Come on!

BILL TUCKER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): At first glance, Becky Burleigh may look too young to run a Division 1 sports program and she is young.

BURLEIGH: Goal. We've got a goal.

TUCKER: But coach Burleigh has turned that to her advantage in connecting with and understanding her athletes.

BURLEIGH: This is just the most difficult time I think of anyone's life when you are going to that transition of finding out who are and being your own person for the first time.

TUCKER: Her support of her players and her positive spirit have translated into undeniable results. Since being hired as the first head coach of the University of Florida's woman's soccer team in 1994, Burleigh's earned four coach of the year honor, her teams have won 80 percent of their games.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It goes in!

TUCKER: And won the Division 1 national championship in 1998.

BURLEIGH: I think it's comes down to just the little things that you every day. Are you disciplined in terms of getting places on time? Are you disciplined in terms of finishing a playoff instead of just, you know, kind of going through the motions?

If you win...

TUCKER: Along with the lesson on completeness, comes instruction on leadership and accountability.

BURLEIGH: Being willing to hold other people accountable. That's a really difficult things for people sometimes. And I think once you have a team or an individual who's willing to hold each, accountable, it makes a huge difference in the outcome of the entire process.

TUCKER: These are the kinds of lessons that extend beyond soccer. They're the kind of lessons that ensure coach Burleigh leaves her mark on and off of the field.

JEREMY FOLEY, ATHLETIC DIRECTOR, UNIV. OF FL.: She teaches them they have to focus on that. It's not just soccer and fun. I mean, they're here for four years and they better take advantage of their education. Her teams do very, very well academically. She's a stickler for that. She makes them do the right things.

CHRISTINE JOHNSON, SENIOR, UNIV. OF FL: Your job, you're always going to come up against adversity. And now having high expectations and I mean, it's just part of life. And she teaches you life lessons whether you know it or not.

TUCKER: Bill Tucker, CNN.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

DOBBS: Coming up next here, a powerful earthquake rattles California, felt all the way from Los Angeles to San Francisco. And next, I'll be talking with the host of an outstanding ground breaking new series -- chronicling 14 billion years of cosmic evolution. Next, Neal Tyson and I will be talking about beginnings. The very beginning in fact. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: A 6.0 magnitude earthquake hit central California today, the strongest earthquake in some time. That quake centered along the San Andreas fault. It struck this morning causing damage and disruption. Dozens of aftershocks followed, several with a magnitude as much as 3.0. No reports of injuries, fortunately.

And further north in Seattle, still a high-level of seismic activity at Mount St. Helens. In fact, this level has not been seen since 1986. Energy releases of course in the form of earthquakes. They've been slowly but steadily increasing for several days now. Scientists say that they will be monitoring as you might suspect closely all of this activity.

Tonight, Nova unveils "Origins," an astounding series that traces the origins of the universe and life itself. Neil Tyson is the host of "Origins" and it begins running tonight on PBS. He's also of course the co-author of the new book entitled "Origins: 14 Billion Years of Cosmic Evolution." Tyson is also in his spare time a leading astrophysicist and the director of New York City's Hayden Planetarium and is our guest here tonight. Good to have you. Congratulations on the series.

NEIL TYSON, HAYDEN PLANETARIUM: Thank you. Labor of love, both of them, yes.

DOBBS: This is over a four-part series, correct?

TYSON: Yes, it is.

DOBBS: And it begins tonight on PBS?

TYSON: That's right. And it continues tomorrow night and we have two parts tonight, two parts tomorrow night and we crammed 14 billion years of cosmic evolution.

DOBBS: Only on television. But that's fascinating. It begins tonight and what is your first focus?

TYSON: First focus is the formation of the earth and the moon. The earth/moon system. We were going to start with the big beginning, the big bang but we wanted to be much more comfortable. We wanted people to feel comfortable with the first.

DOBBS: Look at those images.

TYSON: Yes, this is spectacular. At the beginning of the earth, we got slammed by Mars-size impactor that rendered the earth surface molten, scattering debris, molten debris into a ring of orbit around earth which coalesced to form our moon. Our moon sitting at that time only about 50,000 miles from earth. It was much, much bigger in the sky and it's been spiraling away every since as it continues to do. So we want to get you started.

DOBBS: You got me hooked. You got us all hooked.

TYSON: Get you started here on earth.

DOBBS: And the progression as you begin with the formation of earth and the solar system?

TYSON: Yes, the formation of the solar system. And the second episode, this evening, talks about the formation of life. And the conditions that enable life as we know it. And that's something that's not widely discussed or fully recognized because we think of earth as a special place. But the ingredients of life, carbon, nitrogen, oxygen, are everywhere in the cosmos and now the inventory of planets is growing, the planet of the month club.

DOBBS: Astronomically.

TYSON: Yes. And so now the number of locations that can receive life is growing by leaps and bounds, and you combine all of these factors. The discoveries of the geologists, the biologists, the astrophysicists, the chemists. There's a cross pollination that is without precedent in the history of science all coming together to answer origin's questions.

DOBBS: If you can do 14 billion years in four installments on PBS beginning tonight, let me ask you in 30 seconds, the big bang, do you improve on the theory?

TYSON: Well, there are recent results that came out in the last couple of years that have not fully expounding upon for the public. Where, there's a NASA mission, the WMAP satellite which nailed down the age of the universe to three decimal places, 13.7 billion years. We know exactly how much matter there is, how much dark matter, how much dark energy.

DOBBS: I have only one question. Where did it all come from?

TYSON: We have no idea.

DOBBS: It is great have you here. I wish you all of the best. Wonderful, wonderful project.

Still ahead here, the results of our poll and we'll have a preview of what is ahead tomorrow. Please stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: The results now of our poll, 13 percent of you say illegal aliens should be granted driver's licenses, 87 percent do not.

Thanks for being with us here tonight. Please join us tomorrow. Ahead of the first so-called presidential debate Thursday, presidential history Robert Dalleck will join me. He says that debate will have a huge impact on the campaign and the election. He will join us with his analysis and his forecast of the winner and in our face-off, Senator Kerry's foreign policy adviser Jamie Ruben and adviser to President Bush Tucker Eskew will be here to face off on their respective candidate's foreign policies.

We hope you'll be with us. Please join us. For all of us here, good night from New York. "ANDERSON COOPER 360" is coming up next.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com


Aired September 28, 2004 - 18:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR: Tonight, a bold demand from the government of Mexico. Mexico wants the United States to open our borders to everyone, including illegal aliens and possibly terrorists. We'll have a special report.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE W. GRAYSON, WILLIAM & MARY: President Fox has raised hypocrisy from the level of an art form to an exact science.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

DOBBS: As President Bush and Senator Kerry prepare for their first so-called presidential debate, the vice presidential candidates lead the attack.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RICHARD CHENEY, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Senator Kerry says he has a plan for Iraq, yet the plan he announced is not a plan.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. JOHN EDWARDS (D-NC), VICE PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: George Bush made this mess, and he can't fix it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

DOBBS: Are the so-called presidential debates really presidential presentations? George Farah, executive director of open debates says the Republican and Democratic Parties are controlling the agenda. I'll be talking with George Farah, author of "No Debate," tonight.

The world is fighting a bloody war against radical Islamist terrorists, but the United Nations is standing on the sidelines. Critics say the United Nations is actually hostile to the principles of freedom itself. The story and Victor Davis Hanson is my guest.

The president of Hispanics Across America, Fernando Mateo, says millions of illegal aliens already in this country should have U.S. driver's licenses. Fernando Mateo is my guest. And stunning new discoveries about the origins of the universe, the mysteries of space and time. Astrophysicist Neil Tyson is the author of "Origins" and the host of a breathtaking new PBS documentary. He's my guest.

ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT for Tuesday, September 28. Here now for an hour of news, debate and opinion is Lou Dobbs.

DOBBS: Good evening.

Tonight, President Bush and Senator Kerry are out of sight. They're preparing for their first so-called presidential debate Thursday, but their campaigns are stepping up their offensives, with the vice presidential candidates, in fact, leading the attacks.

Senator John Edwards said President Bush has made a mess of Iraq, and the president can't fix it. Vice President Dick Cheney declared Senator Kerry to be unfit to lead the war on terror.

We begin our coverage tonight with Elaine Quijano near the president's ranch in Crawford, Texas -- Elaine.

ELAINE QUIJANO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, as you said, no public events for President Bush today, but his running mate, Vice President Dick Cheney, blasted Senator Kerry on the campaign trail today. The vice president making two stops to two states that Mr. Bush lost narrowly in 2000, Wisconsin and Iowa.

In Iowa, Mr. Cheney slammed Senator Kerry, saying that the senator had demonstrated, quote, "vacillation and indecision," end quote. Mr. Cheney arguing that would make Kerry ineffective in fighting terrorism.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHENEY: Senator Kerry's continued wavering in this campaign, opposing the war, but claiming the president's plan is his own, calling himself an alliance builder, then belittling America's closest friends shows an agenda not of conviction, but of political opportunism, and his record establishes that he is not prepared to lead America in the war on terror.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

QUIJANO: Now, as you might expect, the Kerry campaign is firing back. They issued a statement, the end of which reads, quote, "No matter how much Dick Cheney stretches the truth, the war has become the quagmire it is today because of the way George Bush rushed into Iraq without allies or a plan to win the peace period." That statement from the Kerry campaign this afternoon.

As for President Bush, again, he is staying out of sight. Really informal debate preparations continuing. Aides say that he is going over questions with adviser Karen Hughes, also taking some time to do fishing and biking while he's here -- Lou.

DOBBS: Elaine Quijano.

Thank you very much.

Top advisers to Senator Kerry today launched new attacks against President Bush, targeting the president's record on Iraq and the war on terror. Those issues will be at the forefront of Thursday's so- called presidential debate in Florida.

Frank Buckley reports from Dodgeville, Wisconsin.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

FRANK BUCKLEY, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Senator John Kerry remained out of view at this resort in rural Wisconsin, as he prepared for Thursday's debate.

SUSAN RICE, KERRY ADVISER: He's marshalling the facts, he's marshalling the argument, and the American people are going to be very impressed when they see him on Thursday night.

BUCKLEY: While Kerry prepared, his running mate, Senator John Edwards, campaigned in Pennsylvania. Edwards pressing the campaign's effort to try to frame the upcoming debate as a critique of President Bush's handling of the war in Iraq.

EDWARDS: We know what needs to be done in Iraq, but the honest truth is in order to do it, we're going to have to have a fresh start with a new president. It cannot be done. George Bush made this mess, and he can't fix it.

BUCKLEY: The Kerry campaign also began airing an ad in battleground states featuring President Bush on the deck of the USS Abraham Lincoln.

ANNOUNCER: There he goes again. George Bush said Iraq was mission accomplished. Sixteen months later, he still doesn't get it.

BUCKLEY: And while new polling suggests the majority of Americans believe things are going badly in Iraq, it also suggests voters may not be quite ready to change commanders in chief. When asked who they trust more as commander in chief, 56 percent chose President Bush, while only 40 percent chose Senator Kerry.

Kerry advisers say the debate will sway voters their way when the senator appears side by side with the president.

RICE: President Bush has given the American people no idea how he's going to get us out of this mess. It's that reality that the president is trying to obscure by making up ridiculous charges about John Kerry's past and his positions on Iraq. The public knows what's going on, and, when they have a chance to see the two of them face to face, it will be absolutely crystal clear that the president has just been playing games.

BUCKLEY (on camera): John Kerry's described as fired up as he prepares for Thursday's debate. Kerry aides saying they see it as another opportunity to put President Bush on the defensive about his handling of the war in Iraq.

Frank Buckley, CNN, Dodgeville, Wisconsin.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

DOBBS: My next guest says the upcoming debates will be nothing more than glorified news conferences. George Farah is the author of "No Debate: How the Republican and Democratic Parties Secretly Control the Presidential Debates." In the book, he claims the major parties have hijacked these debates and killed any chances for an honest exchange of ideas.

George Farah joins me now from Washington, D.C.

George, good to have you with us.

GEORGE FARAH, AUTHOR, "NO DEBATE: HOW THE REPUBLICAN AND DEMOCRATIC PARTIES SECRETLY CONTROL THE PRESIDENTIAL DEBATES": Thank you for having me, Lou.

DOBBS: Let's start with the first question. Should we even call these -- and you may have noticed, I refer to them as so-called presidential debates -- should we even call them debates?

FARAH: No, these are really glorified bipartisan press conferences. These are forums in which the candidates' top lawyers have eliminated any element of spontaneity or authentic discourse from these forums.

The candidates cannot talk to each other. They've hand-picked all the questioners. They have limited response times, so they're just issuing a series of memorized sound bites.

These are not the Lincoln-Douglas debates. These are exclusionary press conferences.

DOBBS: These aren't even, in point of fact, the Bush-Gore debates, are they?

FARAH: No, things have actually gotten worse. For example, the town hall debate, all the questioners in the auditorium have to submit their questions in advance to a moderator. The moderator throws out the questions he doesn't like, and, if the town hall audience questioner asks the question that deviates in any way of the question he submitted on the index card, the monitor can cut him off. This wasn't the case in 2000.

DOBBS: But the moderators are amongst the most respected in the news industry. The participants, the panelists -- surely, there will be as rough and tumble as the questioners follow up their initial questions and bore in for specific answers.

FARAH: Lou, no. Afraid not. Each candidate's got two minutes to answer a question. Then their opponent has 90 seconds. And, if the monitor chooses, there's a 30-second follow-up question. That is it. There's no rebuttal. There's no surrebuttal. The candidates can't talk to each other.

This isn't a debate! This is a glorified bipartisan press conference, and, of course, you're not going to see any third-party challengers, and this is a consequence of the Republican/Democratic Parties secretly controlling the process through a compliant commission.

DOBBS: George, I have to tell you I am -- I'm pining for the days of the League of Women Voters. They could be irascible, if you will, but they were certainly independent. Is there any chance of interesting them in taking over from this bipartisan debate commission?

FARAH: Lou, you hit the problem on the money. The League hosted of these events from 1976 until 1984. They did a remarkable job.

In advance of each debate, they would negotiate aggressively with the candidates to ensure that popular independent challengers like John B. Anderson were included and to ensure the formats were engaging and revealing, and that's precisely why the parties took over.

They didn't like an uppity woman's organization controlling these -- the most important public forums, and so they created a Commission on Presidential Debates, which, by design, submits the demands of Republican and Democratic Parties.

We've created a Citizens Debate Commission to host future debates in 2008, 2012 that rather than submit behind closed doors to the demands of the nominees will fight on behalf of the public interest for aggressive formats, the inclusion of candidates like Nader, Buchanan and Perot, and, of course, addressing a broad array of issues the American people want to hear about.

DOBBS: To hear about those issues, how can our viewers here tonight find out more about your organization, George?

FARAH: Lou, please have your listeners visit our Web site, opendebates.org. These candidates are not gods. They are public servants, and they're fighting for your vote. If you demand real debates, they will give them to you.

They cannot avoid debates in 2004 without paying a heavy political price, and that's because you demand them. So please help us achieve and protect our most important and sacred public forum by visiting our Web site opendebates.org.

DOBBS: To be clear, it's unlikely that you'll be able to have much influence on these upcoming presidential presentations.

George Farah, we thank you very much for being here.

The Web site address again is opendebates.org.

Thank you, again, George Farah.

FARAH: Thank you, Lou, for having me. Appreciate it. DOBBS: Coming up next here, an end to the United Nations. Why historian Victor David Hanson says the United States has become hostile to the very principles of freedom. He is my guest.

And also ahead here, tracking terrorists. The new technology that is helping the Department of Homeland Security catch illegal aliens and potential terrorists entering this country by air.

And welcome, neighbor! A controversial proposal not to secure the Mexican border at all. In fact, to throw it wide open. We'll have that special report on the astonishing initiative taken by the Mexican government of Vicente Fox.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: The United Nations faces criticism for its unwillingness to stand up to the tyranny of radical Islamist terrorism and its government sponsors. Some critics say the United Nations, in fact, has become an enemy of liberty itself.

One of those critics is military historian Victor Davis Hanson. In an op-ed article in "The Washington Journal," he wrote "It is about time to think the unthinkable: The United Nations has not been beneficial, neutral, but increasingly hostile to freedom."

Victor Davis Hanson joins me now from Fresno, California, a senior fellow at the Hoover Institution.

Good to have you with us.

The very idea, Victor, that the United Nations is not committed to the war against radical Islamist terrorism is, I think, perhaps to many people, shocking. What do you mean when you say that?

VICTOR DAVIS HANSON, HOOVER INSTITUTION: Well, one great challenge of our time right now is Islamic fascism, and it's sweeping the globe, and we don't see any concerted effort by the U.N. either to condemn it, to ostracize it, to form a global posse to pursue it.

We have people being killed in Darfur, Sudan. We've seen nothing. We saw people killed in Rwanda. We see nothing. The Balkan, nothing. So it's got the impotence of the old League of Nations but without the League of Nations' idealism and allegiance to western ideas of freedom.

And you look at the membership of the U.N. Either a half to a third of the membership are not democratic, so it's almost post-modern or surreal for the president to address a body and ask for support for democratic reform when, if that reform were to take place, a great number of the people and the very audience he was speaking to would probably be out of power.

DOBBS: You also say that Kofi Annan, the secretary general of the United Nations, is the symbol of all that's wrong with the institution. How so?

HANSON: Well, it's the hypocrisy that he represents. He's someone from the so-called former Third World. He's well-spoken. He gets a pass from the New York media because he professes utopian idealism. But in the real here and now, he oversaw probably the greatest financial scandal of our time.

Billions of dollars were siphoned off in the Food for Oil Program, and that allowed a lot of Iraqis to go hungry and die and brought a lot of cynicism to the integrity of the U.N., and yet he's been given a pass by both the press and all auditory agencies.

DOBBS: And why do you think that is, Victor?

HANSON: I think it's because we have this ends justifying the means. We feel that he represents the higher goal of globalism or utopianism or pacifism, and, in the here and now, we're willing to overlook whatever fallacies or foibles he has to employ or use or overlook on the way to this nirvana of all of us getting along without war or bickering on a global scale.

DOBBS: You're also critical for the -- of the United Nations for the makeup of the Security Council itself. What would you have the United Nations do in that regard?

HANSON: Well, the Security Council, as a General Assembly, represents the world of about 1946. We have a billion people who are democratic and nuclear in India. They're not on the Security Council; the second biggest economy in the world in Japan, not on the Security Council; an emerging country in Brazil, not on the Security Council.

And yet we have France, a declining power, fifth or sixth largest economy, only 80 million people. It uses a Security Council to balance or harass or constrain the United States who it seems to have this perpetual envy over.

Then we have China who's not democratic and uses the Security Council to be a hindrance to the advance of reform and efforts to spread democracy.

The same thing with the General Assembly. We could have a simple rule that said, "If you want to be a member of the General Assembly, you should have a democratic institution."

DOBBS: The institution of the United States itself, Victor -- should it, in your judgment, exist at all?

HANSON: Well, I think it -- we could see it as a valuable place to speak, peacekeeping, UNICEF, UNESCO, AIDS help; in other words, all the things it does other than the really important political and global and strategic and military.

But, from now on, I think the United States increasingly understands that if it's going to act somewhere in the Balkans or it's going to act in Iraq or act in Afghanistan, it's going to have to make a coalition of willing democratic nations, and it can't worry whether China, who swallowed Tibet to the silence of the U.N., or whether Syria, who swallowed Lebanon to the silence of the U.N., objects over the principles.

DOBBS: Victor Davis Hanson, we thank you for being with us.

HANSON: Thank you, again. I appreciate it.

DOBBS: Tonight's thought is on the United Nations. "You can safely appeal to the United Nations in the comfortable certainty that it will let you down." Those the words of Conor Cruise O'Brien.

Still ahead here tonight, securing our skies. The Department of Homeland Security says it will soon be able to catch even more illegal aliens, drug smugglers and terrorists. We'll tell you how they're planning to do that next.

And then, border outrage. How the Mexican government is working to make its border with this country all but nonexistent.

Also tonight, the great American giveaway. Another state considering giving driver's licenses to immigrants and illegal aliens. Fernando Mateo of Hispanics Across America will be here to tell us how he feels this issue should be resolved.

All of that and a great deal more still ahead here tonight.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ANNOUNCER: LOU DOBBS TONIGHT continues. Here now for more news, debate and opinion, Lou Dobbs.

DOBBS: The Department of Homeland Security today unveiled a new radar system that can track 24,000 aircraft simultaneously. The system is designed to catch drug smugglers, illegal aliens and terrorists who are flying across our borders.

Casey Wian reports from Riverside, California.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): These air detection specialists are guarding the nation's borders from a room deep inside MARCH Air Reserve Base. They're the first line of defense against a terrorist attack or illegal alien smuggling operation from the air.

RON COLLINS, DETECTION SYSTEM SPECIALIST: You've got military on the net. You've got the NORAD command. You've got the Northeast, the Southeast, the Western air defense, et cetera, like that, all the military. You've got FAA.

WIAN: An upgraded tracking system with 450 radar antennas, three times as many as the old one, has been in place for two weeks. It's already paying off.

JEFF HOLLIMAN, DETECTION SYSTEM SPECIALIST: A good example of that is, yesterday, as the hurricane moved through Florida, a smuggler attempted to take advantage of that and came in from the Bahamas, went directly into South Florida.

Our facility picked him up, determined that he was a threat, managed to figure out exactly where he was going, brought local law enforcement out and actually diverted one of our P-3 aircraft to intercept the aircraft just as it landed, got a description, and we went ahead and made a seizure. In that case, we got five illegal aliens in the aircraft.

WIAN: The Air and Marine Operations Center tracks more than 80,000 non-commercial flights each month. It investigates and sometimes intercepts an average of 30 suspicious flights every day. That and recent warnings that al Qaeda plans to use general aviation aircraft to attack the United States has prompted some in Congress to call the nation's aviation system vulnerable.

TOM RIDGE, SECRETARY, HOMELAND SECURITY: We're not looking to create a failsafe system, that would be impossible to do, but, with the cooperation of the general aviation community, we've certainly reduced the risk of an airplane being turned into a missile.

WIAN: The Homeland Security Department has tightened some security procedures. Just last week, it began prohibiting flight training schools from admitting aliens, unless the Transportation Security Administration determines the potential student is not a threat to aviation or national security.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WIAN: The main focus of the air tracking system used to be drug smugglers. Now it's terrorists and illegal aliens. Supervisors here say because their technology has improved, they're starting to see fewer people trying to sneak into our country from the air -- Lou.

DOBBS: Casey, thank you very much.

Casey Wian reporting from Riverside, California.

Tonight, we're taking a closer look at one of the biggest problems in securing this nation's southern border. One even more disturbing than rampant drug and human smuggling. The problem is the Mexican government itself, which, instead of policing the border with the United States, instead advocates an open border with this country. That agenda is working directly against U.S. efforts to stem the flow of illegal aliens into this country.

Peter Viles reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

PETER VILES, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It seems almost laughable, but it's true. Three years after the September 11 attacks, the Mexican government of Vicente Fox still advocates an open border with the United States. Just this summer, a top Mexican official said, quote, "I would like to see a border similar to the one that Europe has now." Of course, that idea is a nonstarter. At a time of war, it would effectively put American border security in the hands of the Mexican government. But the damage, analysts say, is that talk of an open border encourages more illegal immigration from Mexico.

DAN STEIN, FAIR: We want the president of Mexico and his administration to stop creating expectations that are unrealistic. It's contributing to a large-scale outflow, millions and millions of people from Mexico who believe that eventually there's going to be a virtual border, a nonexistent border between our two countries. That is not the case.

VILES: Even on American soil, Fox has lobbied in support of Mexican immigrants. This was at the president's ranch earlier this year.

VICENTE FOX, PRESIDENT OF MEXICO (through translator): It is clear to us that the people who come to this country make a significant contribution to the American economy.

VILES: While Fox pushes for greater freedom in the North, it's worth noting Mexico does not believe in opening its own southern border with Guatemala and Belize.

GRAYSON: President Fox has raised hypocrisy from the level of an art form to an exact science. He wants to move toward an open border between Mexico and the United States. At the same time, he's beginning to crack down on Central Americans and others who cross illegally into Mexico's South.

VILES: The Fox administration did not respond to CNN's request for comment on its border policies.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

VILES: And there is one aspect of this Mexican agenda that Washington actually agrees with. It has to do with facilitating greater and greater volumes of trade across the border. That is why Washington is working with Mexico City to open up more and more of these fast lanes at border crossings. The goal this year, Lou, was to add five more of these fast lanes on that southern border -- Lou.

DOBBS: Peter Viles, thank you very much.

This, three weeks after "TIME" magazine on its cover reported a staggering three million illegal aliens will enter this country this year.

President Bush spoke last night about this country's border patrol crisis with Fox News Channel's Bill O'Reilly. President Bush explained why he says his current policy will eventually be effective.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I happen to believe the best way to enhance the border is to have temporary worker cards available for people, and I think it's best for the employers who are employing these people. I think it is best for the employees that are trying to find work. I think the long-term solution for this issue on our border is for Mexico to grow a middle class. That's why I believe in NAFTA.

BILL O'REILLY, THE O'REILLY FACTOR: We'll be in the grave.

BUSH: I don't think so. It's happening.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

DOBBS: President Bush said border security is improving, and he would not use the military to improve security along our borders.

Police in Oakland, California, tonight are once again preparing to increase security on local roads and highways. The Oakland Police Department last week suspended its DUI checkpoint program after Hispanic activists protested the program. Those activists claim the road blocks were targeting illegal aliens with no licenses or insurance.

Under a new order from Oakland's Mayor Jerry Brown, police will resume the DUI checkpoints at his instruction. There is a catch: Residents will be told the general area of those checkpoints in advance.

The New York Department of Motor Vehicles is now considering a proposal that would give driving permits to hundreds of thousands of illegal aliens. Some immigrant group are already opposing the plan saying it discriminates against illegal aliens and could lead to arrests and deportation.

But the author and sponsor of the proposal Fernando Mateo says his plan is a compromise. He's president of the New York State Federation of Taxi Drivers and president of Hispanics Across America and joins me here tonight.

Fernando, good to have you here.

FERNANDO MATEO, HISPANICS ACROSS AMERICAN: Thank you.

DOBBS: Immigrant groups are already opposed to your plan. Why?

MATEO: We expect for people to oppose any plan that's put out there because...

DOBBS: Welcome to America, right?

MATEO: Exactly. But I believe that what we need to do is give this governor, Governor George Pataki, an opportunity to see different programs, to see different issues that can be brought to his table.

DOBBS: Fernando, as I understand it, what you're really proposing is something very similar to what Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger in California has asked for in a differentiated type of license for aliens? MATEO: That's correct. What we don't want is for Governor Pataki to feel like Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger felt, that they were trying to shove something down his throat. We need to understand that the first -- the most important thing to our nation is the security of our nation. Second to that, there are issues...

DOBBS: Amen, brother. That's all I can say to that.

MATEO: Yes, absolutely. But second to that, we have an issue where New York State has maybe 700,000 immigrants that obtained the license without a Social Security number.

DOBBS: You mean they're illegal?

MATEO: No, they're not illegal. A lot of them obtained it legally. Some obtained them illegally. But the bottom line is that if there are 700,000 people that own small businesses, small landscaping businesses, grocery stores and they need the vehicles to and from work, you've got to give them an opportunity.

DOBBS: Well, we don't gotta because they're here illegally.

MATEO: We should give them an opportunity.

DOBBS: Well, I think that's questionable, too. We've got to talk about what the reality is. The reality is this very plan has been put into effect in Tennessee. It's been stalled because immigrant groups are attacking it because you're differentiating between illegal aliens and legal immigrants.

MATEO: I think that the people that are attacking it are the people -- the same people that don't want it to succeed. We're looking for a compromise. If national -- if the national security issue is they don't want these people to use this driver's license as an I.D., well, our compromise works. Why? Because it will not be an I.D. It will be an immigration driver's permit. Immigrant driver's permit means that that person would be able to drive.

DOBBS: But you and I both know the reason that's being opposed by these immigrant activist groups, because they want the whole deal.

MATEO: No, it's because they don't want any deal because they're not willing to compromise.

DOBBS: Right, but -- if you're...

MATEO: If you're willing to compromise...

DOBBS: What they want is they want to use that driver's license, undifferentiated from a regular driver's license for illegal citizens so they can use it as a breeder document without wasting their time on things like amnesty and citizenship processing.

MATEO: We need -- we need to basically understand that that's not going to happen. Homeland Security isn't going to allow it. I believe that we need to present to this governor, the governor of the State of New York, the opportunity to say, yes, this sounds good, I think something like this could work.

DOBBS: Politically, what happens to Governor Pataki, Governor Schwarzenegger? Seventy-one percent of the people surveyed in this country do not want illegal aliens to be given amnesty. They want this carefully, carefully controlled. What do you say?

MATEO: We're not giving them amnesty, and we're not giving them a driver's license. We're giving them a permit to be able to get to and from work, a permit to take their kids to school. Let's face it they're not going anywhere.

You know what they're doing now, is they're going in droves to -- they're going -- they're rolling in droves to Michigan, turning in their New York State license and obtaining an out-of-state license and working with that.

I think that we need to have a little compassion. This country wouldn't be what it is...

DOBBS: You mean...

MATEO: ... if it weren't for immigrants.

DOBBS: Immigrants...

MATEO: Immigrants.

DOBBS: ... is one thing. Illegal immigrants is another, and I don't think...

MATEO: It's...

DOBBS: Listen, you and I are going to be sitting here agreeing violently if we keep this up.

MATEO: OK.

DOBBS: I happen to think your plan makes great sense...

MATEO: Great.

DOBBS: ... and I happen to...

MATEO: So you endorse it?

DOBBS: I...

MATEO: It's -- no, no, but, I mean, you agree...

DOBBS: I happen to think it makes sense.

MATEO: You think if you think it's...

DOBBS: I think it's -- I think it is an interesting concept that may resolve national security issues.

MATEO: Exactly.

DOBBS: It may resolve a whole host of issues, but those who would think of it as de facto citizenship -- that is where we have a problem.

We're out of time, partner. I just want...

MATEO: We don't want to encourage illegal immigration, but what we want to do is grandfather those that have New York State driver's licenses at this point.

DOBBS: We've got a ways to talk, Fernando, but I appreciate you being here.

MATEO: Thank you, Lou.

DOBBS: Thanks a lot, and thanks for putting some rationale proposals on the table in a time of great irrationality.

MATEO: You always have to be rational if you want to succeed.

DOBBS: I wish that were true all the time, but, Fernando, in your case, it is, and I thank you for being here.

MATEO: Thank you.

DOBBS: Fernando Mateo.

That brings us to the subject of tonight's poll. Do you believe illegal aliens should be granted driver's licenses? Yes or no. Cast your vote at cnn.com/lou. We'll have the results for you here later in the broadcast.

Taking a look now at some of your thoughts.

Bill Robison of Portland, Oregon, wrote in to say, "Lou, after all of the big American corporations have outsourced our jobs to China and India, I think I will sneak across the Mexican border. Do you think the Mexican government will give me a driver's license, allow me to vote in their elections, put my kids through school, provide my family health care and provide me a retirement when I get old?"

Ivan in Surprise, Arizona, "Lou, I cannot express adequately how sorry I feel for those poor CEOs who outsourced their employees' jobs to China and now are being victimized by patent laws. Perhaps their former employees could take up a collection for them. As Lucy in Peanuts would say, "You brought it on yourself, Charlie Brown."

We love hearing from you. Send us your thoughts at loudobbs.com. Send us your name and address because each of you whose e-mail is read on the broadcast receives a free copy of my new book on the assault on the American middle class, "Exporting America."

Still ahead here tonight, new developments in Ralph Nader's fight to be on the ballot this presidential election. Three of the country's top political journalists join me. And saluting America's coaches. How one soccer coach inspires her athletes to excel on the field and most importantly in life.

And then Out of This World. Astrophysicist Neil Tyson will join me. He'll be sharing startling new discoveries about the beginning of our universe, the beginning of life itself.

All of that and a great deal more still ahead here tonight. Please stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: I want to bring you up to date quickly on Ralph Nader's battle to be on the ballot as an independent presidential candidate across the entire country.

The Supreme Court today refused to put Nader on Oregon's presidential ballot, but New Mexico's Supreme Court ordered Nader's name on that state's ballot. Nader a critical factor in New Mexico four years ago, where he won 4 percent of the vote and President Bush won that state by only 366 votes.

Nader will now be on the ballot in at least 30 states this November, and several cases are pending in other states.

Joining me now, three of the country's top journalists, Ron Brownstein of the "Los Angeles Times," Karen Tumulty of "TIME" magazine, Roger Simon "U.S. News & World Report" from Washington, D.C.

Ralph Nader is on his way to being a factor. Is that right, Ron?

RON BROWNSTEIN, THE "LOS ANGELES TIMES": Well, assuming John Kerry gets close enough to make it matter. Right now, given the kind of consensus of the polls -- Bush is about 6 points ahead -- Ralph Nader would be an irritant to John Kerry, but he would like to get to the point where Ralph Nader would be a problem, yes.

In a number of these states -- New Mexico, which Al Gore actually carried -- I think you meant to say -- narrowly in 2000, Florida, others, Nader could matter. First, Kerry has to close the gap, though.

DOBBS: Karen, I'd like to hold this up for our voters see, if they can, if I can ask our director to come in. This poll -- this ad in today's "New York Times" really criticizing the Gallup poll for its reporting of an 8 percent lead for President Bush. What do you -- what's your reaction to their criticism, this group, of the Gallup organization? Karen?

KAREN TUMULTY, "TIME" MAGAZINE: Well, I believe that's a moveon.org ad and...

DOBBS: Right, it is.

TUMULTY: ... it is -- it's interesting. It tells you sort of what we've come to in this country, that, you know, we have seen a whole lot of polls coming out over the last few weeks with a whole lot of different results, almost all of them showing President Bush ahead, but by varying margins. And it is interesting that we are now so polarized in this country that people assume that if they don't like what they're looking at that there must be some nefarious agenda at work.

DOBBS: Is this a cultural shift, Roger, we should worry about, as the two candidates face off in what looks like I think we can safely call a so-called presidential debate this Thursday?

ROGER SIMON, "U.S. NEWS & WORLD REPORT": Yes, I am sorry. A cultural shift, Lou?

DOBBS: A cultural shift in which we will see actual exchanges of honest, real, concrete languages and ideas and...

SIMON: Oh, no. There's no shift there.

DOBBS: ... we'll not be dealing with perceptions, we'll be dealing with reality, particularly the reality of the American people?

SIMON: No, it's a theatrical performance. These guys are spending time right now studying answers that have been prepared for their staff so they can regurgitate it on the air, and the press will judge them on their theatrical abilities.

It's not -- it's been pointed out many times this is not a debate. It's a series of two-minute-and-30-second infomercials. In a sense, there's nothing wrong with that. At least the American public get to learning something about these guys, but they will not see their combat skills.

DOBBS: Oh, Roger, I hate to hear you say there's nothing wrong with that because, I mean, I don't know about you guys, I want to see these guys go at each other tooth and nail and just go after each other. I want -- I want follow-up questions. I want rebuttal. I want people held accountable for what they say, for what they do. Don't you?

TUMULTY: Well, my son's -- in my son's preschool, this would have been called parallel play, is basically what you're looking at.

DOBBS: I don't think like that. It's an either an answer to education or to the presidential debate...

(AUDIO GAP)

BROWNSTEIN: Yes, you know, look, I agree it would be better if they had more exchange. But also agree with Roger. I mean, there are a lot of people out there amazing to say, that are not watching CNN or reading "The L.A. Times" or "Time" magazine or "U.S. News..."

DOBBS: This must be a very small group.

BROWNSTEIN: A few of them out there. And for that audience, they are going to get more information of what these candidates are opposing and the differences between them. Even though that the opportunity for direct exchange is limited, there is enormous premium for the candidates on defining themselves by explaining the contrast with their opponent.

Really what John Kerry did not do for five or six months after winning the Democratic nomination. He minimized the contrasts. Since the Republican Convention, he's tried to accentuate that again. And in a way, Lou, also helps voters understand where he is. They need the point where hey can push off and see the differences. So, in that sense, the debate, whatever you call it, is a good thing.

DOBBS: In presidential presentation, as I will call it here at least here tonight, Karen, do you think expectations are simply -- President Bush is an interesting position. Expectations are high, that he will perform extremely well, and it seems that Senator Kerry's a beneficiary right now of at least moderated expectations.

TUMULTY: Well, I think, too, the real factor here is that President Bush doesn't have as much that he needs to accomplish with this debate. In our latest poll, 1 in 5 voters say they still don't know enough about John Kerry to have an opinion about him one way or the other. And what, you know five weeks out.

SIMON: Think Karen is right. But I also think that President Bush does have a burden. He's the president of the United States, and he better look presidential. He better look like he's in command of the facts. He better look like he has some ideas for the future of this country. And he better look like he know house to solve a few problems. It's not like he's going into this with no expectations at all.

BROWNSTEIN: You know, in 2000, Lou, president -- then candidate Bush benefited...

DOBBS: Very quickly, Ron, we're really on a crunch for time.

BROWNSTEIN: 2000, Bush benefited because he was more gent that people expected. Not expectations but perceptions of Kerry are so negative now, that he doesn't have strong beliefs, that he isn't clear on his conventions, that maybe relatively easier for him to be more of those things than people are led to believe over the last several weeks.

DOBBS: Ron, Karen, Roger, thank you all, as we shape up our expectation for this upcoming Thursday presidential presentation. Thank you, all.

A reminder now to vote in our poll. The question, do you believe illegal aliens should be granted drivers licenses, yes or no. Cast you vote at cnn.com/lou. We'll have the results for you a little in the broadcast.

Still ahead here, a powerful earthquake has hit California. The strongest in California in quite some time. We'll have a report.

In our special report tonight, "America Works," focusing on, of all people, coaches. Some people say this college coach in fact has created a dynasty in women's soccer, and a great trajectory for her players in life. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: Oil prices today topped $50 a barrel in trading. More evidence tonight that those high oil prices and a weak job market are putting pressure on this countries middle class.

Joining me now, Christine Romans, with a story -- Christine.

CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, consumer confidence fell again in September. The conference board blames high gas prices and the labor market. More than 28 percent of consumer surveys say jobs are hard to get. Add in soaring healthcare premiums, it's no wonder that consumers and investors are less optimistic.

A study by consumer advocate, Families USA, found premiums paid by American worker rose 3 times faster than average earnings over the past four years. Worker health premiums cost grew almost 36 percent when average earnings rose only 12 percent. In fact, 14 million Americans have healthcare cost amounting to a quarter of their gross annual pay.

Today, Delta Airlines' employees were told...

DOBBS: Wait a minute, could you say that again.

ROMANS: Fourteen million Americans are paying their healthcare premiums a quarter of their pay, their gross pay annually. Today, Delta Airlines found out -- those employees found out they're going to have to foot more of their healthcare bill, they're going to get a 10 percent pay cut. Also Motorola is cutting about 1, 000 jobs. All of that, and the market closed higher today after a week of losses, the Dow rose 88 points, the Nasdaq rose almost 10, the S&P gained 6.

DOBBS: You've got to love Wall Street. Thank you very much, Christine Romans.

Well, the University of Florida launched its women's soccer team back in 1984, it recruited then 26-year-old Becky Burleigh to be the head coach. Ten years later, she's led the team to a national championship, creating what some have called a new dynasty in women's soccer.

Bill Tucker has her story in tonight's "America Works."

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BECKY BURLEIGH, SOCCER COACH, UNIV. FLORIDA: Hi, go hard, go hard, go hard. Come on! Come on!

BILL TUCKER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): At first glance, Becky Burleigh may look too young to run a Division 1 sports program and she is young.

BURLEIGH: Goal. We've got a goal.

TUCKER: But coach Burleigh has turned that to her advantage in connecting with and understanding her athletes.

BURLEIGH: This is just the most difficult time I think of anyone's life when you are going to that transition of finding out who are and being your own person for the first time.

TUCKER: Her support of her players and her positive spirit have translated into undeniable results. Since being hired as the first head coach of the University of Florida's woman's soccer team in 1994, Burleigh's earned four coach of the year honor, her teams have won 80 percent of their games.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It goes in!

TUCKER: And won the Division 1 national championship in 1998.

BURLEIGH: I think it's comes down to just the little things that you every day. Are you disciplined in terms of getting places on time? Are you disciplined in terms of finishing a playoff instead of just, you know, kind of going through the motions?

If you win...

TUCKER: Along with the lesson on completeness, comes instruction on leadership and accountability.

BURLEIGH: Being willing to hold other people accountable. That's a really difficult things for people sometimes. And I think once you have a team or an individual who's willing to hold each, accountable, it makes a huge difference in the outcome of the entire process.

TUCKER: These are the kinds of lessons that extend beyond soccer. They're the kind of lessons that ensure coach Burleigh leaves her mark on and off of the field.

JEREMY FOLEY, ATHLETIC DIRECTOR, UNIV. OF FL.: She teaches them they have to focus on that. It's not just soccer and fun. I mean, they're here for four years and they better take advantage of their education. Her teams do very, very well academically. She's a stickler for that. She makes them do the right things.

CHRISTINE JOHNSON, SENIOR, UNIV. OF FL: Your job, you're always going to come up against adversity. And now having high expectations and I mean, it's just part of life. And she teaches you life lessons whether you know it or not.

TUCKER: Bill Tucker, CNN.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

DOBBS: Coming up next here, a powerful earthquake rattles California, felt all the way from Los Angeles to San Francisco. And next, I'll be talking with the host of an outstanding ground breaking new series -- chronicling 14 billion years of cosmic evolution. Next, Neal Tyson and I will be talking about beginnings. The very beginning in fact. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: A 6.0 magnitude earthquake hit central California today, the strongest earthquake in some time. That quake centered along the San Andreas fault. It struck this morning causing damage and disruption. Dozens of aftershocks followed, several with a magnitude as much as 3.0. No reports of injuries, fortunately.

And further north in Seattle, still a high-level of seismic activity at Mount St. Helens. In fact, this level has not been seen since 1986. Energy releases of course in the form of earthquakes. They've been slowly but steadily increasing for several days now. Scientists say that they will be monitoring as you might suspect closely all of this activity.

Tonight, Nova unveils "Origins," an astounding series that traces the origins of the universe and life itself. Neil Tyson is the host of "Origins" and it begins running tonight on PBS. He's also of course the co-author of the new book entitled "Origins: 14 Billion Years of Cosmic Evolution." Tyson is also in his spare time a leading astrophysicist and the director of New York City's Hayden Planetarium and is our guest here tonight. Good to have you. Congratulations on the series.

NEIL TYSON, HAYDEN PLANETARIUM: Thank you. Labor of love, both of them, yes.

DOBBS: This is over a four-part series, correct?

TYSON: Yes, it is.

DOBBS: And it begins tonight on PBS?

TYSON: That's right. And it continues tomorrow night and we have two parts tonight, two parts tomorrow night and we crammed 14 billion years of cosmic evolution.

DOBBS: Only on television. But that's fascinating. It begins tonight and what is your first focus?

TYSON: First focus is the formation of the earth and the moon. The earth/moon system. We were going to start with the big beginning, the big bang but we wanted to be much more comfortable. We wanted people to feel comfortable with the first.

DOBBS: Look at those images.

TYSON: Yes, this is spectacular. At the beginning of the earth, we got slammed by Mars-size impactor that rendered the earth surface molten, scattering debris, molten debris into a ring of orbit around earth which coalesced to form our moon. Our moon sitting at that time only about 50,000 miles from earth. It was much, much bigger in the sky and it's been spiraling away every since as it continues to do. So we want to get you started.

DOBBS: You got me hooked. You got us all hooked.

TYSON: Get you started here on earth.

DOBBS: And the progression as you begin with the formation of earth and the solar system?

TYSON: Yes, the formation of the solar system. And the second episode, this evening, talks about the formation of life. And the conditions that enable life as we know it. And that's something that's not widely discussed or fully recognized because we think of earth as a special place. But the ingredients of life, carbon, nitrogen, oxygen, are everywhere in the cosmos and now the inventory of planets is growing, the planet of the month club.

DOBBS: Astronomically.

TYSON: Yes. And so now the number of locations that can receive life is growing by leaps and bounds, and you combine all of these factors. The discoveries of the geologists, the biologists, the astrophysicists, the chemists. There's a cross pollination that is without precedent in the history of science all coming together to answer origin's questions.

DOBBS: If you can do 14 billion years in four installments on PBS beginning tonight, let me ask you in 30 seconds, the big bang, do you improve on the theory?

TYSON: Well, there are recent results that came out in the last couple of years that have not fully expounding upon for the public. Where, there's a NASA mission, the WMAP satellite which nailed down the age of the universe to three decimal places, 13.7 billion years. We know exactly how much matter there is, how much dark matter, how much dark energy.

DOBBS: I have only one question. Where did it all come from?

TYSON: We have no idea.

DOBBS: It is great have you here. I wish you all of the best. Wonderful, wonderful project.

Still ahead here, the results of our poll and we'll have a preview of what is ahead tomorrow. Please stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: The results now of our poll, 13 percent of you say illegal aliens should be granted driver's licenses, 87 percent do not.

Thanks for being with us here tonight. Please join us tomorrow. Ahead of the first so-called presidential debate Thursday, presidential history Robert Dalleck will join me. He says that debate will have a huge impact on the campaign and the election. He will join us with his analysis and his forecast of the winner and in our face-off, Senator Kerry's foreign policy adviser Jamie Ruben and adviser to President Bush Tucker Eskew will be here to face off on their respective candidate's foreign policies.

We hope you'll be with us. Please join us. For all of us here, good night from New York. "ANDERSON COOPER 360" is coming up next.

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