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Lou Dobbs Tonight
Bush, Kerry Head to Florida for Debate; U.S. Pharmaceutical Companies Outsourcing Jobs
Aired September 29, 2004 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR: Tonight, President Bush and Senator Kerry head to Miami for their first so-called presidential debate. Tonight, presidential historian Robert Dallek joins us to give us perspective on the first of three, if not debates, at least presidential presentations.
President Bush's adviser Tucker Eskew, Senator Kerry's adviser Jamie Rubin join us for a real debate on foreign policy, a debate in which we will have few rules, plenty of substance and total freedom of expression.
At best, it's pathetic irony. U.S. pharmaceutical companies outsourcing jobs in research and development. But American consumers are not permitted to buy imported prescription drugs.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ALAN TOMELSON, U.S. BUSINESS & INDUSTRY COUNCIL: We're starting to talk about R&D work as well as production work.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: Dramatic new evidence tonight that Mount St. Helens could erupt.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We think that the likelihood of eruption has increased.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: And what's left of this country's battered textile industry may soon be altogether extinct. The final barriers to cheap overseas imports will be lifted in a little over two months. Nearly a million Americans could lose their jobs. Our special report tonight.
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT for Wednesday, September 29. Here now for an hours of news, debate and opinion is Lou Dobbs.
DOBBS: Good evening.
Tonight, President Bush is in Florida for the first of the so- called presidential debates, what we here call presidential presentations. Senator Kerry arrives later in Florida tonight.
Tomorrow's presentations will focus on foreign affairs and homeland security, both critical issues in this election.
White House Correspondent Dana Bash reports from Miami -- Dana.
DANA BASH, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Lou, the campaigns -- both campaigns negotiated with one another, as you mentioned, some rules that don't allow the candidates to officially engage.
So what the Bush campaign is hoping is for the president to use his time and the very large audience they know that they will have to try to cement an image of his opponent that this campaign has been working on for months, and that is that John Kerry has changed his position so many times on Iraq that he is essentially not fit to be commander in chief.
Well, the Bush campaign knows that in politics there's nothing like a good gimmick, and today's gimmick, Lou, is this debate briefing book that the Bush campaign put out as sort of a joke of what Senator Kerry would likely be told from his advisers. Here's a taste of what's inside.
"Your current position: The removal of Saddam Hussein has left America less secure. Your current record: You voted for the wrong war in the wrong place at the wrong time. Now you say the war you voted for made us less safe. Your attacks: Pretend like no position you have ever taken matters. Nobody knows what you really believe anyway."
Now that is from the president's campaign.
The president is here in Florida already. He is not officially campaigning, but he did have a stop that certainly he hopes will appeal to some voters here in Florida toward some hurricane damage, an orange grove of somebody who has been hit by three out of the four hurricanes here, also pledged for even more federal funds to come help this state.
Now the vice president is on the stump today. He was in Minnesota earlier today doing a little warm-up for the president and had a familiar theme.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RICHARD CHENEY, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: He's gotten to the point now where he's taken so many different positions that there isn't anything he can say today that doesn't contradict something he's already said, and the last count there were at least 10 different positions he's taken with respect to the situation in Iraq.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BASH: Now, that, of course, Dick Cheney talking about John Kerry, but the president's campaign also knows he's going to be on the defense on Iraq, specifically whether or not he planned well enough for the post-war situation. What the president's team says he's going to do is try to say that Senator Kerry doesn't necessarily have a plan, and what he says he will do isn't that different from what Mr. Bush is doing already -- Lou.
DOBBS: Dana, these -- this making light of foreign policy positions with more than 1,000 Americans killed in Iraq, with more than 7,000 wounded, this is hardly a laughing matter. I'm not sure that I quite understand the tone taken here.
BASH: Well, what the president's campaign is doing is they're trying to essentially lay the groundwork for what the president, they hope, will try to -- as I said, try to really nail in the perception of Americans' minds tomorrow, which is that John Kerry essentially doesn't have what it takes to do what he needs to do in Iraq.
Certainly, this is light-hearted. As a matter of fact, the president's campaign has been attacked for even putting light-hearted ads on the air when, as you said, over 1,000 Americans have died in Iraq. That might be something that we might hear from Senator Kerry tomorrow night.
DOBBS: Dana Bash -- thank you very much -- reporting from Miami.
Senator Kerry spent most of his day making final preparations for the presidential presentations. At the same time, Senator Kerry's campaign staff worked hard to ensure their candidate looks like a winner before Senator Kerry even arrives in Florida.
Frank Buckley reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
FRANK BUCKLEY, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): After days of debate prep in Wisconsin, Senator Kerry prepared to leave for Florida, but first a parting shot at President Bush during an interview with ABC's Diane Sawyer. Kerry conceding that the president has been successful in portraying him as a flip-flopper.
SEN. JOHN F. KERRY (D-MA), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: But it doesn't reflect the truth, nor does it reflect the truth in George Bush's record who said he wouldn't go to the U.N., then he goes to the U.N., who said he didn't support Homeland Security, and then he supports Homeland Security, who said he wasn't going to support the 9/11 commission, then he supports it, and then he says he won't testify, and then he goes to testify.
BUCKLEY: Kerry advisers believe the Senator's escalating criticism of the president's Iraq policy is working despite recent polling that shows voters still believe President Bush is better able to handle the issue. A new ad continues to press the case.
ANNOUNCER: Why did George Bush go to war in Iraq? The reason keeps changing.
BUCKLEY: Kerry's strategists say Mr. Bush will be on the defensive in the debate, while their candidate convinces voters he can be a stronger commander in chief.
JOE LOCKHART, KERRY ADVISER: I think he's got to show first and foremost that there's a choice in this election, that George Bush on this night for the first time in a long time will be held accountable for his record, and then he's -- John Kerry's got to demonstrate that he's got a better way.
BUCKLEY: Senator Kerry arrives in Florida tonight where President Bush has already spent part of the day visiting with hurricane victims. When asked if that puts Senator Kerry at a disadvantage, a senior aide said it was appropriate for President Bush to tour the hurricane-ravaged state as healer in chief, but he added Senator Kerry will remain in Florida through Saturday and he will visit many more times in the weeks ahead.
Frank Buckley, CNN, Dodgeville, Wisconsin.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: As the presidential candidates hammer one another on the campaign trail, lawmakers on Capitol Hill are fighting their own election year battles. Members of Congress are challenging one another on highly controversial issues that they believe will be certain to mobilize voters come Election Day.
Congressional Correspondent Ed Henry reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ED HENRY, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The house is voting on guns and gay marriage, two issues that generate plenty of political heat in an election year.
REP. NANCY PELOSI (D-CA), MINORITY LEADER: Once again, we're engaged in the Congress of delay, do little and do damage.
HENRY: Pelosi charges Republicans are pushing bills that have no chance of becoming law because they're embarrassed by their record on other issues like the economy and health care.
PELOSI: So what do they do, but divert the public's attention to social issues that they know are wrong, but have a political weight for them. They're their wedge issues.
HENRY: House Majority Leader Tom DeLay counters it's important to get everyone on the record about the constitutional amendment banning gay marriage. DeLay believes Democrats should stop whining about casting politically difficult votes.
REP. TOM DELAY (R), MAJORITY LEADER: There's no better way to have a debate than bringing a bill to the floor of the House, and the American people, these people need to know where their representatives stand on fighting the courts and protecting marriage.
HENRY: Republicans aren't sure if they have the votes to pass the gay marriage ban on Thursday. Even if the constitutional amendment passes, it's unlikely to move forward because the Senate already voted it down. Likewise, the House voted today to overturn the ban on gun possession in Washington, D.C., but the Senate probably won't consider the measure, so it will not become law.
REP. JIM MORAN (D), VIRGINIA: I cannot believe the Republican leadership would promote this kind of a bill just to give the NRA the kind of vote that asserts its dominance over this House.
REP. MARK SOUDER (R), INDIANA: This bill has 45 Democratic co- sponsors, in addition to the majority of the Republican Party. When we talk about bipartisan legislation, this is bipartisan legislation.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HENRY: Nancy Pelosi also charged that Republicans are turning the 9/11 intelligence reform bill into yet another wedge issue. She charges that it's being loaded up with so many poison pills that Republicans are just daring Democrats to vote against this bill on the eve of the election to try to embarrass the Democrats politically.
Republicans reject that, they say that's nonsense, and, in fact, Republicans say that some of these provisions they're adding to the intelligence reform bill, such as a national I.D. standard, are key pieces of reform -- Lou.
DOBBS: Ed Henry reporting from Capitol Hill.
Noted presidential historian Robert Dallek says tomorrow's presidential presentations will, in his view, have a tremendous impact on the outcome of this election.
Robert Dallek joins me now from our studios in Washington, D.C.
Good to have you with us.
You're putting a great deal on this first presentation by the candidates. With so many strictures on their ability to speak to one another and to address issues and to rebut one another, Robert, why is this even going to be perceived as important by the voters?
ROBERT DALLEK, PRESIDENTIAL HISTORIAN: Well, because it's sort of a culmination in the campaign. We've been leading up to this for weeks and months, actually, and the election is very evenly contested. It's sharply fought over, and so I think there's a lot of feeling in both camps that if either candidate comes out ahead, does better than the other, it's going to give them an edge in the race in the last couple weeks coming down to November.
DOBBS: But unlike previous debates, as you well know, Robert, the lack of opportunity to rebut, to turn to one another, to address specifically, this is unprecedented in its constraint. The American people are being shortchanged straightforwardly, don't you think?
DALLEK: Yes, I -- in the sense that this is not a classic sort of debate where you have the yeas and the nays, but, instead, what you have are questions presented to each of the candidates. They're going to respond.
But I wouldn't be surprised if they're going to get at each other, of course, somewhat. They're not just going to be able to stick to answers of the questions that Jim Lehrer puts before them. So I think you do -- will see some back and forth and some fireworks because this is a hotly contested election, and both candidates are well primed to get at each other.
DOBBS: When is the last time, Robert -- you're the historian. You have focused on the presidency for decades, if I may point that out. When is the last time a debate was the determinant factor in an election, in your judgment?
DALLEK: Well, there have been several instances in which it was very important.
In the Kennedy-Nixon debate in 1960, Kennedy came across as being presidential. I think, in 2000, Bush served himself very effectively by making himself credible as a presidential candidate. Reagan was very effective in dealing with Jimmy Carter.
So I think in every one of these elections since 1976 where we've had these debates, it's had a significant impact on the outcome of the election.
DOBBS: And the issues this time -- you are obviously putting great stock in them. Is it your sense, since we're talking about foreign policy in these presidential presentations, that we will hear from these two candidates sharp, focused responses on the issue of immigration at a time when three million illegal aliens are crossing our borders this year, that we'll hear a lively debate with great substance on the linkage between foreign policy and international trade policy? Would you imagine such a thing would occur?
DALLEK: No, Lou, I don't think we'll hear anything about that at all. We're going to hear a great deal about Iraq. We're going to hear a great deal about America's relations with its allies and about the Middle East, but I would not think you're going to hear anything about the two issues that you just mentioned.
DOBBS: Robert Dallek, we thank you for being with us.
DALLEK: My pleasure.
DOBBS: Appreciate it.
Still ahead here, exporting your health and the very future of a critical American industry to foreign countries, all to save a few corporate dollars, of course. We'll have that special report for you.
Also ahead, Looming Doom. Another American industry facing devastation at the hands of cheap foreign competition. Tonight, we'll show you how one group of workers is willing to fight back.
And bracing for an eruption from Mount St. Helens. We'll have a live report for you coming right up. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: We've reported here extensively on the exporting of American technology, manufacturing and service jobs to cheap foreign labor markets. Tonight, another industry exporting to a foreign country. This country's largest pharmaceutical and biotechnology companies are outsourcing now their critical research work to India.
Kitty Pilgrim has the report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KITTY PILGRIM, CNN BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It can cost nearly a billion dollars to invent, test, make and bring a drug to market in the United States, though drug companies are looking at cheaper ways to do it. One of those ways is India.
EDGAR PEERSCHKE, BAIN & CO.: I think there's a real opportunity for pharma companies to look to lower-cost markets where you have significant intellectual capital -- India is one -- where you have FDA-approved manufacturing sites - again, India is a good example of this -- to partner up with local Indian manufacturing and bring down the cost of manufacturing drugs.
PILGRIM: Consultants Bain & Co. says Merck, Abbott, Pfizer, Bristol-Myers Squibb and Eli Lilly are using outsourcing providers in India. Increasingly, U.S. pharmaceutical companies are linking up with Indian-based operations to run clinical trials. Clinical trials in India can cost half those in the United States. The huge Indian population is ideal for testing drugs, and it is often done much faster than in the United States.
The trend is expected to grow, as India works to position itself as a pharmaceutical and biotechnology hub. According to an Ernst & Young study, India will generate about $5 billion in revenue and create more than a million jobs in biotechnology over the next five years.
TOMELSON: We're starting to talk about R&D work as well as production work, and that is a very important sign that the knowledge, which is at the core of high-tech industries like the pharmaceutical industry, is no longer monopolized by either the United States or by the high-wage countries.
PILGRIM: The FDA has actually approved 70 pharmaceutical facilities in India, more than in any other foreign country.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: And the labor pool is there. India is estimated to have three million to four million scientists. That's the largest group outside the United States. They speak English and are willing to work for considerably less than pharmaceutical workers in the United States -- Lou.
DOBBS: And I'm sure they're capable and talented, but, in point of fact, this means the FDA will not have close supervision of clinical trials.
PILGRIM: Well, that's true, and they've actually certified operations overseas. India has the largest number of certified...
DOBBS: Right. Extraordinary. And it just goes on.
Kitty, thank you.
Kitty Pilgrim.
More evidence tonight of the exporting of the American pharmaceutical industry. This time, the federal government is doing the exporting directly. The U.S. Department of Health and Human Services has awarded a $13 million contract to develop a vaccine for the deadly bird flu virus to a foreign company. The French drug giant Aventis Pasteur will produce two million doses of the vaccine to be used in case of an outbreak in this country.
That brings us to the subject of tonight's poll, and the question is rather simple. Do you find it a little ironic at least that American pharmaceutical companies outsource jobs and research and development while the American consumer is not permitted to buy imported drugs? Yes or no. Please cast your vote at cnn.com/lou. We'll have the results for you later in the broadcast.
The American textile industry is also facing heightened competition from cheap foreign labor markets. As of January, quotas limiting the number of textile imports from China will expire altogether, but textile workers in this country are beginning to fight back.
Lisa Sylvester reports from Washington.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LISA SYLVESTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It's a waiting game in Fort Payne, Alabama, the sock capital of the United States. The workers at the Alabama Footwear plant have watched other factories shut down in the face of competition from China.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That leaves a lot of us to wonder, you know, how long will we have our jobs in.
SYLVESTER: Three years ago, China accounted for one million dozen pairs of socks sold in the United States. By 2003, China was bringing in more than 22 million dozen pairs, and that's with quotas restricting the number of Chinese imports in place. But, as of January 1, all remaining quotas on socks, as well as high-end fabrics, including outerwear apparel, wool suits and sports coats, will be phased out.
JOCK NASH, MILKEN AND COMPANY: It's going to be the final nail in the coffin for a lot of workers, not just in the United States, but in countries throughout the world.
SYLVESTER: Twenty years ago, more than two million Americans worked in the textile and apparel industry, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics. Today, only 700,000 remain. This week, the industry is lobbying the World Trade Organization to keep China from gobbling up more of the world market share.
The Bush administration has agreed to impose safeguard protections temporarily limiting Chinese imports on bras, knits and dressing gowns, but other industries, like socks, are not covered. Retailers argue lifting the quotas is overdue and that consumers will benefit by open trade with China.
ERIK AUTOR, NATIONAL RETAIL FEDERATION: Quotas, as a simple matter of supply and demand economics, by limiting supply increase price. In fact, that's what they are intended to do is ultimately to increase price to the consumer.
SYLVESTER: But textile workers see the quotas as the only thing that have saved their jobs thus far, a protection they will lose at the end of this year.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SYLVESTER: No one, not even the retailers, dispute that China's market share will jump considerably after January 1. Estimates by the World Bank predict that China have capture half of the world apparel market. Other estimates put it as high as 70 percent -- Lou.
DOBBS: Lisa, thank you very much.
And the suggestion that a communist nation paying wages of approximately 30 cents an hour would be suffering at the hands of unfair quotas imposed by this country is quite remarkable, when you think about it.
That brings us to the subject of tonight's thought. The thought is, "Shall we make our own comforts or go without them at the will of a foreign nation? He, therefore, who is now against domestic manufacture must be for reducing us, either to dependence on that foreign nation or to be clothed in skins and to live like wild beasts in dens and caverns. I am not one of these." Those the words of Thomas Jefferson.
Just ahead, Waiting to Exhale. A dramatic warning tonight about Mount St. Helens and the prospect of an eruption.
Also ahead, facing off on foreign policy ahead of tomorrow's presidential presentations. Tonight, a debate between an adviser to the Kerry-Edwards campaign, Jamie Rubin, and a Bush-Cheney adviser Tucker Eskew. They face off without constraint, rules, in total support for free expression on their candidates' policies next.
And, later, I'll be joined by three of the country's leading political journalists. Their forecasts for tomorrow's match-up between President Bush and Senator Kerry.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ANNOUNCER: LOU DOBBS TONIGHT continues. Here now for more news, debate and opinion, Lou Dobbs.
DOBBS: There are what appear to be major developments tonight in Washington State where scientists have issued a volcano advisory for Mount St. Helens. Scientists say there is now a heightened possibility of eruption.
Kimberly Osias joins me now from the Johnson Ridge Observatory that overlooks Mount St. Helens -- Kimberly.
KIMBERLY OSIAS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hello, Lou.
Well, scientists are monitoring the activity here at Mount St. Helens very, very closely. In fact, they're saying in terms of an alert level, it's about a 2. That is from a scale of 0 to 4. It was 0 about a week ago. That's when things started kicking up.
Now you can't see a whole lot of Mount St. Helens. It's obscured quite substantially by the fog. That is what scientists were battling earlier today when they took a chopper and got as close to the crater as possible. They were testing for the second time this week for gases.
They were looking for any kind of CO2 or SO2, and, if you need a little bit of a chemistry brush-up -- I know I sure did -- that is carbon dioxide and sulfur dioxide. Those are the two gases that are emitted if, in fact, there is any kind of movement, any kind of substantial movement at all.
Now they did find today nothing of significance, nothing of statistical significance when they tested on Monday, the first go- around as well.
Now what makes this a bit of a conundrum is you compare that to the activity level, the activity of earthquakes that they've seen. They haven't seen as much activity in a decade. They've seen about 1,000 to 2,000 quakes in the past week.
Now, Lou, just today, I spoke with scientists at the University of Washington. They were seeing about three to four earthquakes a minute.
DOBBS: Kimberly, let me ask you this. There are also indications that the dome itself and the -- we know the northwest section of Mount Helens peak is what blew off in the 1980 eruption, that dome moving up about an inch and a half. What are we to take away from that as an indication of the possibility of an eruption?
OSIAS: That's exactly right, Lou. About an inch and a half northwards. Now what they don't know is the cause of that. It could be this time of year typically a lot of rainwater collects, and it could be heating up and percolating underneath and then steam could actually erupt, or, you know, it could be the gases. That's what's a bit confounding, but they haven't seen anything significant in terms of those gases.
So really it is sort of watching and waiting. Everybody is obviously, as you can well imagine, on pins and needles.
DOBBS: Have they also put forward a warning to people to stay away from the volcano itself?
OSIAS: Well, tours are continuing here at the ridge. Now, for hikers, above 4,800 feet and above, they are not able to hike. Those permits have been stopped. And a couple of trails have been closed.
DOBBS: OK. Kimberly Osias.
We thank you very much for bringing us up to date.
Tomorrow's presidential presentation will focus on two of the most pressing issues facing this country: foreign policy and homeland security. The two issues are at the center of tonight's Face Off.
Here to debate their respective views is Jamie Rubin. He is senior foreign policy adviser to the Kerry-Edwards campaign joining us tonight from Miami.
Jamie, good to have you with us.
JAMIE RUBIN, SENIOR KERRY FOREIGN POLICY ADVISER: Nice to be with you, Lou.
DOBBS: And in our Washington, D.C., studios, Tucker Eskew, who is campaign adviser to President Bush.
Tucker, good to have you with us as well.
Unlike what you'll see tomorrow night, at least what we're told you'll see tomorrow night, Jamie and Tucker have absolutely no rules beyond basic civility. We will not limit your rebuttals, you may look at each other, you may point at each other, you may say whatever you please. We're not constraining you in any way, and if you will so swear -- in other words we're going to have a debate and we thank you both for being here.
Let me then begin with you, Tucker. This president has an accounting to make in the view of Senator Kerry, the judgment that, at least on the part of Secretary of State Powell, that things are not going well in Iraq and national intelligence estimates that forewarned us of what would transpire over the ensuing months since July. What can the president say that is positive on Iraq and convincing to the American people about a plan for stability in Iraq, success, and the safety and security of our troops?
TUCKER ESKEW, BUSH-CHENEY CAMPAIGN ADVISER: Well, Lou, he does have a plan. It's a plan laid out in great specificity and followed through on. Even when times are tough -- and we do have some bad news, some very bad headlines, and that's not to be dismissed -- but we cannot be shifting our great goals and vision in the face of those bad headlines.
Our opponent, unfortunately has a predilection for that. The president has a series of accomplishments in Iraq that are centered around his primary goals as he launched this effort. He went to the world community and said Saddam has had these weapons, he's used them on his people and on his neighbors, you've tried to hold him accountable for that and yet he continues to thumb his nose at the world. It is time now to hold him accountable. We did that and did it in a way also reminding people that it would be tough and that we owed it to the people of that region to help loosen the grip of tyranny.
And we've accomplished much of that. The stockpiles of weapons are not there. The president has acknowledged that, acknowledged that the evidence that was shared across the intelligence community in that regard did not prove accurate. The president has acknowledged that one scenario could be things even tougher, and as we head towards elections in January, a really central goal in this entire effort, he believes that some of that violence could indeed get worse.
It is serious, and yet we are seeing signs of local elections, of schools open, of businesses thriving in the face of new electricity resources for the people of Iraq. There are successes across that great country that do point us toward an ultimate goal of greater freedom for them and more security for the United States and its allies.
DOBBS: Jamie, your candidate has voted, in point of fact, for the authorization that Mr. Bush used to go to war against Iraq to overthrow Saddam Hussein. He has articulated to this point no concrete plan that would remove troops or would resolve the issue in Iraq. What do you expect him to say tomorrow that would be convincing and transcending, if you will?
JAMIE RUBIN, SR. ADVISER TO KERRY-EDWARDS CAMPAIGN: I think what John Kerry will have an opportunity to do tomorrow night is to discuss this issue in detail. You know, the voters get snippets here, headlines there, sound bites there. There's 90 minutes, a lot of this will be taken up with the subject of Iraq. Iraq is a serious subject. And unlike George Bush and Tucker and the others, he's not going to be calling Bush names and throwing these flip-flop charges around.
These are serious issues, and we're going to have a chance for a serious person to discuss them. That means discussing it was correct to hold Saddam Hussein accountable. Nobody is challenging that. What we're challenging is the stewardship of the United States government. George Bush made mistake after mistake after mistake. He ignored the Army chief of staff who said we needed more troops. He ignored the Central Intelligence Agency that said there was going to be chaos. He ignored the State Department. He's ignored any adviser who said anything but happy talk, and the truth is that around the world right now, you know, Lou, this is a financial program often. Remember that commercial with E.F. Hutton?
When George Bush speaks, the world doesn't listen. That's the problem we have right now, because he said that we were going to go to war for weapons of mass destruction. There are no weapons of mass destruction. He went on that aircraft carrier and behind him the sign "mission accomplished." That was more than a year ago, and right now most of the areas of Iraq are difficult and dangerous, and as finally the secretary of state admitted, but Republicans senators, the intelligence community, journalists have admitted, things are getting worse.
We don't need a cheerleader in the White House, we need a serious leader in the White House, and that means leveling with the American people. He has a plan to get us out of Iraq and he's been very concrete about it and will have a chance to do that tomorrow night. But that plan is premised on something new. The person who got us into this mess in Iraq is not the one who will get us out. We need a new leadership with new credibility whose judgment is respected.
DOBBS: So Senator Kerry has a plan that he will share with the American people tomorrow night?
RUBIN: Absolutely. He's going to start by calling for the international community to fulfill its promise to send monitors in, send troops in to protect. George Bush and the Bush campaign boast about all these U.N. resolutions, then they don't lift a finger to get them implemented. We need the rest of the world to stand up, and with George Bush gone and without all this poisoned well and all the bitterness, we can get countries to focus on their national interests and persuade them to assist. Yes, we have some countries with us, but we're paying 90 percent of the cost, 90 percent of the burden, and that's just not good enough.
DOBBS: Tucker?
ESKEW: Well, Lou, this is another example of a campaign that looks down its nose and condescends to those who disagree with it or who are on another side. What John Kerry and his latest round of operatives, not the round that Jamie was part of, but the round that has come just in the last few weeks, really sneered at the prime minister of our strongest ally in the fight for a free Iraq that doesn't threaten our security. Prime Minister Allawi himself was called a puppet by John Kerry's latest adviser on communications.
So, you know, that fits in with a candidate who called our allies the coalition of the coerced and the bribed. I don't think Mr. Rubin's former colleagues at the State Department, even those who might agree with the Kerry position, find that a very good coalition- building or even multilateral effort.
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: Let me ask you gentlemen this...
RUBIN: You said I could interrupt. Let me try that. Are you seriously telling me, Tucker, you read the newspapers, today in "The Washington Post," the world supports John Kerry. Now, they are not voting for us, and that doesn't matter, but for you for suggest just because we criticized the Iraqi prime minister for saying everything's dandy, and because we acknowledge that we have 90 percent of the troops and 90 percent of the burden that we're going to alienate the world? The world wants a new president. We know that. They're not voting, the American people are voting. But the American people have a right to know that the rest of the world supports... ESKEW: We know, Jamie, that John Kerry's got support from any number of unnamed international leaders. He said that himself.
RUBIN: So now you don't want support from foreign leaders? First, you criticized him for...
ESKEW: Jamie, let me finish, OK. Let me finish.
RUBIN: ...for alienating foreign leaders and now we can't have it?
DOBBS: Let me ask you both something...
RUBIN: Which way is it, Tucker?
DOBBS: Let me ask you this, on foreign policy. This country delinked its trade policy from international policy some years ago, gave the president, since we're talking about foreign policy, gave the president effectively all but absolute authority, the Congress did, over what is constitutionally the responsibility of the U.S. Congress -- that is, trade policy. Would either of your candidates, in order to fix what has been a 28-year consecutive string of trade deficits, $4 trillion in debt, a foreign policy -- whether this administration or the previous, frankly, that is ambiguous in its object, would your candidates consider strongly linking our foreign policy and our trade policy, not treaty...
ESKEW: Lou, I think President Bush has done that, in the sense that he sees trade as a very aggressive, very important tool in advancing democracy and freedom, while also improving our own economy. We've actually got long-range efforts underway for a free trade zone within the Middle East, a region beset by so much lack of freedom that it's been called the freedom deficit. There are trade deficits, but a freedom deficit has resulted in less security for the United States and the president is already working on that. He's been a consistent advocate, even if the face, as you'll acknowledge, Lou, of some very severe critics, a very consistent proponent of trade as a tool for our values and for our own economic interests. The same cannot be said for our opponent who has been all over the map on a number of trade issues.
DOBBS: Let's hear from Jamie Rubin who'll have the last -- Jamie, you'll have the last word here tonight.
RUBIN: I appreciate that. John Kerry has been consistently supporting free trade, but unlike George Bush, he's not consistently supporting tax relief for those companies that export jobs outside the United States. He will fix the loophole that George Bush seems to love.
DOBBS: Gentlemen, Tucker Eskew, Jamie Rubin, thank you both for being here.
Coming up next, the countdown to the first presidential presentation is underway. Will the so-called debates sway the voters? Then "America Works." Tonight we'll tell you why one well-known college football coach is respected even more for his contributions off the field. That story and a great deal more still ahead here tonight. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: On the eve of the first presidential presentations, both campaigns claiming their candidates have the clear advantage, but with the strict rules in place for tomorrow's event, there's little chance either candidate will effectively address issues facing Americans today. That would be a somewhat cynical view, but it's shared by many.
Joining me now, three of the countries top political journalist. Roger Simon, political editor, "U.S. News & World Report," in Miami.
Joining me here in New York City, Marcus Mabry, he's chief of correspondent for "Newsweek" magazine.
And Mark Warren is executive editor for "Esquire" magazine.
Good to have you here.
Roger, you're so excited about this presidential presentation as we style it here that you're already there getting warmed up. Are you pretty excited?
ROGER SIMON, "U.S. NEWS & WORLD REPORT": Oh, I'm on the edge of my seat. No, I think it has the potential to be a good presentation or performance or whatever it's supposed to be. Even though there have been all these pages of rules written, I was talking to the co- chairman of the debate commission today, he says nobody has signed on to the rules except for the two candidates. So, if the journalists want to break the rules, if the networks want to do the cutaway shots, they're not supposed to do, he's not going to stop them.
DOBBS: Well -- Marcus, what do you think?
I mean, the idea is this is controlled by both parties. They've signed a 30-page-plus documents to constrain them. And America is going to tune in looking for real differentiation on critical issues like homeland security and Iraq.
MARCUS MABRY "NEWSWEEK": I think America will be disappointed and I don't think it will be the first time. I think however, despite that fact, do not expect a great deal of substance. I think most people know that both of these guys have some vague plans for things like what to do next in Iraq and how to get out of there eventually, but both candidates, those are vague plans, neither candidate has actually filled in. And the fact is neither can really deliver. For instance, an international support, NATO support. France and Russia coming in to into Iraq...
DOBBS: We just heard Jamie Rubin say the world wants Senator John Kerry to be president.
MABRY: That's not because the world wants to send in troops to Iraq. They may favor that, because they do favor Kerry's multilateral in general foreign affairs.
DOBBS: The "Financial Times" at least reported that neither France nor Germany would even consider sending troops to Iraq.
MABRY: That is exactly right. Will you hear anyone talk about that tomorrow night, I don't think so. But the fact is millions will watch this, and probably more undecided voters will want this presentation than any or thing in this campaign so far, and that makes it important.
DOBBS: You just heard me, I presume, you just heard me ask Tucker Eskew and Jamie Rubin, advisers, foreign policy advisers to the respected campaigns, if there will be a linkage between foreign policy and trade policy, with the obvious point of pursuing U.S. national interest. We're not going to hear such a discussion, we're not going to hear anything on immigration policy, do you think?
MARK WARREN, "ESQUIRE MAGAZINE": It will not make the top tier of issues in this debate. I think that, I agree with Ralph Nader on this. This seems to be, as far as immigration goes, almost conspiracy of silence between the campaigns, because the president's tendency toward liberalization and more amnesty is hated by his base, and Senator Kerry's labor base certainly doesn't like any further liberalization either. So I think they will conveniently not talk about it very much.
DOBBS: And meanwhile, we have a foreign policy that is being challenged by such august powers as, say, France, a country of some 80 million people.
And at this point, Roger Simon, what do you think the two candidates will hold forth in terms of their prospective allies and the important of those allying in pursuing U.S. national interest?
Will they be clear about it?
SIMON: I think they'll simply restate their positions, which as we just heard a few minutes ago, are virtually the same. The trouble for John Kerry in this, is that Howard Dean demonstrated that the Democratic Party is an anti-war party this year. Many, many Democrats do not like this war and would like to see the U.S. troops removed. Unfortunately, for them, there is no anti-war candidate running. John Kerry would continue this war, President Bush would continue this war for at least four more years and that's a very optimistic assessment, and for the reasons you already stated, Lou. These allies or at least those allies with large standing armies who could commit to sending troops to Iraq they're going to send their citizens into a meat grinder. They see no profit in it. They see no benefit in it. and they also have the terrible lesson of Spain as to what happens when you risk such a thing.
DOBBS: How important will it be in the discussion tomorrow night, Marcus, that a 1,000 -- more than 1,000 Americans have died in Iraq, more than 7, 000 have been wounded?
The idea, as Dana Bash reported from Miami, the Bush/Cheney campaign putting out a pamphlet making light of, if you will, making fun of Senator Kerry's positions?
It seems to me, at least, to strike altogether the wrong tone.
MABRY: You're absolutely right, Lou. It will be incredibly important that more than 1,000 American service men and women have died in Iraq. The president's challenge tomorrow will be to come a cross as the critic of John Kerry, and the Republicans have done a good job of really lambasting John Kerry, especially since the RNC in Madison Square Garden some weeks ago. But the president has to look really serious. The president has to say, I understand mistakes were made, we are doing better, we will do better and we will do better. And while casting at John Kerry, not belittle the quagmire that we're in in Iraq.
DOBBS: Go ahead, Mark.
WARREN: As we saw from your "Face-off," it seems there's not much percentage with five weeks left for Senator Kerry to compare and contrast himself with the president on Iraq's policy. I think his tack seems to be to really attack the catastrophic judgment, as he sees it, to go to war in the first place.
DOBBS: Must he have a plan, gentlemen?
He's asking the American voters to say change leaders.
MABRY: No.
DOBBS: He doesn't need a plan?
MABRY: All he needs to do is show the American voters you can trust me. You can rely on me. You can count on me. Ronald Reagan did that brilliantly in his debates against Carter. That's all Kerry has to do.
WARREN: What -- the thing he's got to do, the most important thing, which he's not even begun is to establish himself as a leadership alternative. That's astonishing with only five weeks left, that he's done such a poor job of it.
DOBBS: Roger, you get the last word.
SIMON: I don't think he can do that without the plan, however. He's the challenger. He's not the incumbent. He's not the commander in chief. All polls shows he loses on these questions, and for him to challenge a incumbent president, he has to show he has better ideas and a better plan for the future in Iraq than George Bush does, not merely that mistakes were made.
MABRY: The president will have to answer for his mistakes. The president will be held as accountable as well, though. And that's the president's challenge.
DOBBS: Gentlemen we are out of time. We'll see it resolved, I'm sure in Miami.
Marcus, Mark, Roger, thank you, and we appreciate you being here.
Coming up next, a coach, a football legend at one of the nation's Big Ten Schools, a winning record only one way in which his success has been measured. We'll have his story, next. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: For an incredible 55 years and 609 games, Joe Paterno has Penn State football. With two national titles, five undefeated seasons, 341 career wins, Paterno is one of the most successful coaches ever. But for the man known as Joe Pa, coaching his team to victory on the field is only part of his commitment to players. Bill Tucker has his story in tonight's "America Works."
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BILL TUCKER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Coach Paterno is more than just one of a kind, he may be the last of his kind. Division 1 college football is now a place where a coach's success is measured by the number of wins, not the graduation rate, not the academic achievement of the players. That's not the way Paterno sees it.
JOE PATERNO, PSU FOOTBALL COACH: I think it's a waste of time to come to college if you don't get something off it academically. I mean, football is a game.
TUCKER: 742 coaches have come and gone at division 1 schools since Paterno took over a at Penn State in 1966. And during his time, Paterno's teams have had 31 bowl appearances, 5 undefeated seasons and two national championships. He's also produced 30 academic all- Americans, and Penn State ranks No. 1 in graduation rates for division 1 student athletes. Fred Demler was a member of Paterno's undefeated team in 1973. He now heads global metals trading for Man Financial.
FRED DEMLER, MAN FINANCIAL: His whole view was doing your very best, but in doing your very best, doesn't mean doing your very best just at the game, it meant preparing yourself, understanding your opponent, studying your opponent. And he felt as though in the business world, you should be doing the same.
TUCKER: Tom Bill played quarterback in the late '80s, early 90's. He now coaches high school football in New Jersey.
TOM BILL, HIGH SCHOOL FOOTBALL COACH: Coach Paterno was absolutely instrumental in my life, in showing me and teaching me that there are no cutting corners. If you cut corners, the results speak for themselves. When you do it the right way, it doesn't guarantee victory, but it really does guarantee dignity.
PATERNO: People say, what do you stand for? I don't know. I try to get up in the morning, try to be fair. I want to stand up in front of a team and say, this is what I expect of you, and not be a hypocrite.
TUCKER: Perhaps there's nothing that better expresses the values of Coach Paterno than this building. It's a library. He led the fund-raising efforts for its newest addition. He and his wife contributed to it, and it bears his name, ensuring that his legacy lasts well beyond a simple career in football. Bill Tucker, State College, Pennsylvania.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: Taking a look now at some of your thoughts.
Patricia Josh of British Columbia, Canada, "Lou, as a Canadian who loves both CNN and American politics, I was wonder since the U.S. is handing out driver's permits and possibly voting rights to illegal aliens from Mexico, can we northern neighbors get on it too. I really would like to vote. I won't even move there to steal someone's job, or free health care."
Gary Morrison in Tulare, California, "Wouldn't helping an illegal alien get a driver's license be the same as harboring a fugitive? Or at the very least, be considered aiding and abetting? I thought it was against the law to help someone break the law."
We love hearing your thoughts. Send us those thoughts at loudobbs@cnn.com. Please send us your name and address. Each of you whose e-mail is read here, receives a free copy of my new book on the assault on the middle class, "Exporting America."
Still ahead, the results of our poll tonight.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: The results of our poll tonight: 98 percent of you, we consider that to be an overwhelming majority here, thought it a little ironic that American pharmaceutical companies outsource jobs in research an development, while the American consumer is not permitted to buy imported drugs. 2 percent of you did not find either irony or humor in that question.
And last, we thank you for voting. And we thank you for being with us here tonight. Please join us tomorrow. David Frome, former speechwriter for President Bush, Michael Waldman, former speechwriter for President Clinton, they join us ahead of the first presidential presentation in Miami tomorrow night.
For all of us here, good night from New York. "ANDERSON COOPER 360" is next.
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Aired September 29, 2004 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR: Tonight, President Bush and Senator Kerry head to Miami for their first so-called presidential debate. Tonight, presidential historian Robert Dallek joins us to give us perspective on the first of three, if not debates, at least presidential presentations.
President Bush's adviser Tucker Eskew, Senator Kerry's adviser Jamie Rubin join us for a real debate on foreign policy, a debate in which we will have few rules, plenty of substance and total freedom of expression.
At best, it's pathetic irony. U.S. pharmaceutical companies outsourcing jobs in research and development. But American consumers are not permitted to buy imported prescription drugs.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ALAN TOMELSON, U.S. BUSINESS & INDUSTRY COUNCIL: We're starting to talk about R&D work as well as production work.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: Dramatic new evidence tonight that Mount St. Helens could erupt.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We think that the likelihood of eruption has increased.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: And what's left of this country's battered textile industry may soon be altogether extinct. The final barriers to cheap overseas imports will be lifted in a little over two months. Nearly a million Americans could lose their jobs. Our special report tonight.
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT for Wednesday, September 29. Here now for an hours of news, debate and opinion is Lou Dobbs.
DOBBS: Good evening.
Tonight, President Bush is in Florida for the first of the so- called presidential debates, what we here call presidential presentations. Senator Kerry arrives later in Florida tonight.
Tomorrow's presentations will focus on foreign affairs and homeland security, both critical issues in this election.
White House Correspondent Dana Bash reports from Miami -- Dana.
DANA BASH, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Lou, the campaigns -- both campaigns negotiated with one another, as you mentioned, some rules that don't allow the candidates to officially engage.
So what the Bush campaign is hoping is for the president to use his time and the very large audience they know that they will have to try to cement an image of his opponent that this campaign has been working on for months, and that is that John Kerry has changed his position so many times on Iraq that he is essentially not fit to be commander in chief.
Well, the Bush campaign knows that in politics there's nothing like a good gimmick, and today's gimmick, Lou, is this debate briefing book that the Bush campaign put out as sort of a joke of what Senator Kerry would likely be told from his advisers. Here's a taste of what's inside.
"Your current position: The removal of Saddam Hussein has left America less secure. Your current record: You voted for the wrong war in the wrong place at the wrong time. Now you say the war you voted for made us less safe. Your attacks: Pretend like no position you have ever taken matters. Nobody knows what you really believe anyway."
Now that is from the president's campaign.
The president is here in Florida already. He is not officially campaigning, but he did have a stop that certainly he hopes will appeal to some voters here in Florida toward some hurricane damage, an orange grove of somebody who has been hit by three out of the four hurricanes here, also pledged for even more federal funds to come help this state.
Now the vice president is on the stump today. He was in Minnesota earlier today doing a little warm-up for the president and had a familiar theme.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RICHARD CHENEY, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: He's gotten to the point now where he's taken so many different positions that there isn't anything he can say today that doesn't contradict something he's already said, and the last count there were at least 10 different positions he's taken with respect to the situation in Iraq.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BASH: Now, that, of course, Dick Cheney talking about John Kerry, but the president's campaign also knows he's going to be on the defense on Iraq, specifically whether or not he planned well enough for the post-war situation. What the president's team says he's going to do is try to say that Senator Kerry doesn't necessarily have a plan, and what he says he will do isn't that different from what Mr. Bush is doing already -- Lou.
DOBBS: Dana, these -- this making light of foreign policy positions with more than 1,000 Americans killed in Iraq, with more than 7,000 wounded, this is hardly a laughing matter. I'm not sure that I quite understand the tone taken here.
BASH: Well, what the president's campaign is doing is they're trying to essentially lay the groundwork for what the president, they hope, will try to -- as I said, try to really nail in the perception of Americans' minds tomorrow, which is that John Kerry essentially doesn't have what it takes to do what he needs to do in Iraq.
Certainly, this is light-hearted. As a matter of fact, the president's campaign has been attacked for even putting light-hearted ads on the air when, as you said, over 1,000 Americans have died in Iraq. That might be something that we might hear from Senator Kerry tomorrow night.
DOBBS: Dana Bash -- thank you very much -- reporting from Miami.
Senator Kerry spent most of his day making final preparations for the presidential presentations. At the same time, Senator Kerry's campaign staff worked hard to ensure their candidate looks like a winner before Senator Kerry even arrives in Florida.
Frank Buckley reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
FRANK BUCKLEY, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): After days of debate prep in Wisconsin, Senator Kerry prepared to leave for Florida, but first a parting shot at President Bush during an interview with ABC's Diane Sawyer. Kerry conceding that the president has been successful in portraying him as a flip-flopper.
SEN. JOHN F. KERRY (D-MA), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: But it doesn't reflect the truth, nor does it reflect the truth in George Bush's record who said he wouldn't go to the U.N., then he goes to the U.N., who said he didn't support Homeland Security, and then he supports Homeland Security, who said he wasn't going to support the 9/11 commission, then he supports it, and then he says he won't testify, and then he goes to testify.
BUCKLEY: Kerry advisers believe the Senator's escalating criticism of the president's Iraq policy is working despite recent polling that shows voters still believe President Bush is better able to handle the issue. A new ad continues to press the case.
ANNOUNCER: Why did George Bush go to war in Iraq? The reason keeps changing.
BUCKLEY: Kerry's strategists say Mr. Bush will be on the defensive in the debate, while their candidate convinces voters he can be a stronger commander in chief.
JOE LOCKHART, KERRY ADVISER: I think he's got to show first and foremost that there's a choice in this election, that George Bush on this night for the first time in a long time will be held accountable for his record, and then he's -- John Kerry's got to demonstrate that he's got a better way.
BUCKLEY: Senator Kerry arrives in Florida tonight where President Bush has already spent part of the day visiting with hurricane victims. When asked if that puts Senator Kerry at a disadvantage, a senior aide said it was appropriate for President Bush to tour the hurricane-ravaged state as healer in chief, but he added Senator Kerry will remain in Florida through Saturday and he will visit many more times in the weeks ahead.
Frank Buckley, CNN, Dodgeville, Wisconsin.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: As the presidential candidates hammer one another on the campaign trail, lawmakers on Capitol Hill are fighting their own election year battles. Members of Congress are challenging one another on highly controversial issues that they believe will be certain to mobilize voters come Election Day.
Congressional Correspondent Ed Henry reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ED HENRY, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The house is voting on guns and gay marriage, two issues that generate plenty of political heat in an election year.
REP. NANCY PELOSI (D-CA), MINORITY LEADER: Once again, we're engaged in the Congress of delay, do little and do damage.
HENRY: Pelosi charges Republicans are pushing bills that have no chance of becoming law because they're embarrassed by their record on other issues like the economy and health care.
PELOSI: So what do they do, but divert the public's attention to social issues that they know are wrong, but have a political weight for them. They're their wedge issues.
HENRY: House Majority Leader Tom DeLay counters it's important to get everyone on the record about the constitutional amendment banning gay marriage. DeLay believes Democrats should stop whining about casting politically difficult votes.
REP. TOM DELAY (R), MAJORITY LEADER: There's no better way to have a debate than bringing a bill to the floor of the House, and the American people, these people need to know where their representatives stand on fighting the courts and protecting marriage.
HENRY: Republicans aren't sure if they have the votes to pass the gay marriage ban on Thursday. Even if the constitutional amendment passes, it's unlikely to move forward because the Senate already voted it down. Likewise, the House voted today to overturn the ban on gun possession in Washington, D.C., but the Senate probably won't consider the measure, so it will not become law.
REP. JIM MORAN (D), VIRGINIA: I cannot believe the Republican leadership would promote this kind of a bill just to give the NRA the kind of vote that asserts its dominance over this House.
REP. MARK SOUDER (R), INDIANA: This bill has 45 Democratic co- sponsors, in addition to the majority of the Republican Party. When we talk about bipartisan legislation, this is bipartisan legislation.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HENRY: Nancy Pelosi also charged that Republicans are turning the 9/11 intelligence reform bill into yet another wedge issue. She charges that it's being loaded up with so many poison pills that Republicans are just daring Democrats to vote against this bill on the eve of the election to try to embarrass the Democrats politically.
Republicans reject that, they say that's nonsense, and, in fact, Republicans say that some of these provisions they're adding to the intelligence reform bill, such as a national I.D. standard, are key pieces of reform -- Lou.
DOBBS: Ed Henry reporting from Capitol Hill.
Noted presidential historian Robert Dallek says tomorrow's presidential presentations will, in his view, have a tremendous impact on the outcome of this election.
Robert Dallek joins me now from our studios in Washington, D.C.
Good to have you with us.
You're putting a great deal on this first presentation by the candidates. With so many strictures on their ability to speak to one another and to address issues and to rebut one another, Robert, why is this even going to be perceived as important by the voters?
ROBERT DALLEK, PRESIDENTIAL HISTORIAN: Well, because it's sort of a culmination in the campaign. We've been leading up to this for weeks and months, actually, and the election is very evenly contested. It's sharply fought over, and so I think there's a lot of feeling in both camps that if either candidate comes out ahead, does better than the other, it's going to give them an edge in the race in the last couple weeks coming down to November.
DOBBS: But unlike previous debates, as you well know, Robert, the lack of opportunity to rebut, to turn to one another, to address specifically, this is unprecedented in its constraint. The American people are being shortchanged straightforwardly, don't you think?
DALLEK: Yes, I -- in the sense that this is not a classic sort of debate where you have the yeas and the nays, but, instead, what you have are questions presented to each of the candidates. They're going to respond.
But I wouldn't be surprised if they're going to get at each other, of course, somewhat. They're not just going to be able to stick to answers of the questions that Jim Lehrer puts before them. So I think you do -- will see some back and forth and some fireworks because this is a hotly contested election, and both candidates are well primed to get at each other.
DOBBS: When is the last time, Robert -- you're the historian. You have focused on the presidency for decades, if I may point that out. When is the last time a debate was the determinant factor in an election, in your judgment?
DALLEK: Well, there have been several instances in which it was very important.
In the Kennedy-Nixon debate in 1960, Kennedy came across as being presidential. I think, in 2000, Bush served himself very effectively by making himself credible as a presidential candidate. Reagan was very effective in dealing with Jimmy Carter.
So I think in every one of these elections since 1976 where we've had these debates, it's had a significant impact on the outcome of the election.
DOBBS: And the issues this time -- you are obviously putting great stock in them. Is it your sense, since we're talking about foreign policy in these presidential presentations, that we will hear from these two candidates sharp, focused responses on the issue of immigration at a time when three million illegal aliens are crossing our borders this year, that we'll hear a lively debate with great substance on the linkage between foreign policy and international trade policy? Would you imagine such a thing would occur?
DALLEK: No, Lou, I don't think we'll hear anything about that at all. We're going to hear a great deal about Iraq. We're going to hear a great deal about America's relations with its allies and about the Middle East, but I would not think you're going to hear anything about the two issues that you just mentioned.
DOBBS: Robert Dallek, we thank you for being with us.
DALLEK: My pleasure.
DOBBS: Appreciate it.
Still ahead here, exporting your health and the very future of a critical American industry to foreign countries, all to save a few corporate dollars, of course. We'll have that special report for you.
Also ahead, Looming Doom. Another American industry facing devastation at the hands of cheap foreign competition. Tonight, we'll show you how one group of workers is willing to fight back.
And bracing for an eruption from Mount St. Helens. We'll have a live report for you coming right up. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: We've reported here extensively on the exporting of American technology, manufacturing and service jobs to cheap foreign labor markets. Tonight, another industry exporting to a foreign country. This country's largest pharmaceutical and biotechnology companies are outsourcing now their critical research work to India.
Kitty Pilgrim has the report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KITTY PILGRIM, CNN BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It can cost nearly a billion dollars to invent, test, make and bring a drug to market in the United States, though drug companies are looking at cheaper ways to do it. One of those ways is India.
EDGAR PEERSCHKE, BAIN & CO.: I think there's a real opportunity for pharma companies to look to lower-cost markets where you have significant intellectual capital -- India is one -- where you have FDA-approved manufacturing sites - again, India is a good example of this -- to partner up with local Indian manufacturing and bring down the cost of manufacturing drugs.
PILGRIM: Consultants Bain & Co. says Merck, Abbott, Pfizer, Bristol-Myers Squibb and Eli Lilly are using outsourcing providers in India. Increasingly, U.S. pharmaceutical companies are linking up with Indian-based operations to run clinical trials. Clinical trials in India can cost half those in the United States. The huge Indian population is ideal for testing drugs, and it is often done much faster than in the United States.
The trend is expected to grow, as India works to position itself as a pharmaceutical and biotechnology hub. According to an Ernst & Young study, India will generate about $5 billion in revenue and create more than a million jobs in biotechnology over the next five years.
TOMELSON: We're starting to talk about R&D work as well as production work, and that is a very important sign that the knowledge, which is at the core of high-tech industries like the pharmaceutical industry, is no longer monopolized by either the United States or by the high-wage countries.
PILGRIM: The FDA has actually approved 70 pharmaceutical facilities in India, more than in any other foreign country.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: And the labor pool is there. India is estimated to have three million to four million scientists. That's the largest group outside the United States. They speak English and are willing to work for considerably less than pharmaceutical workers in the United States -- Lou.
DOBBS: And I'm sure they're capable and talented, but, in point of fact, this means the FDA will not have close supervision of clinical trials.
PILGRIM: Well, that's true, and they've actually certified operations overseas. India has the largest number of certified...
DOBBS: Right. Extraordinary. And it just goes on.
Kitty, thank you.
Kitty Pilgrim.
More evidence tonight of the exporting of the American pharmaceutical industry. This time, the federal government is doing the exporting directly. The U.S. Department of Health and Human Services has awarded a $13 million contract to develop a vaccine for the deadly bird flu virus to a foreign company. The French drug giant Aventis Pasteur will produce two million doses of the vaccine to be used in case of an outbreak in this country.
That brings us to the subject of tonight's poll, and the question is rather simple. Do you find it a little ironic at least that American pharmaceutical companies outsource jobs and research and development while the American consumer is not permitted to buy imported drugs? Yes or no. Please cast your vote at cnn.com/lou. We'll have the results for you later in the broadcast.
The American textile industry is also facing heightened competition from cheap foreign labor markets. As of January, quotas limiting the number of textile imports from China will expire altogether, but textile workers in this country are beginning to fight back.
Lisa Sylvester reports from Washington.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LISA SYLVESTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It's a waiting game in Fort Payne, Alabama, the sock capital of the United States. The workers at the Alabama Footwear plant have watched other factories shut down in the face of competition from China.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That leaves a lot of us to wonder, you know, how long will we have our jobs in.
SYLVESTER: Three years ago, China accounted for one million dozen pairs of socks sold in the United States. By 2003, China was bringing in more than 22 million dozen pairs, and that's with quotas restricting the number of Chinese imports in place. But, as of January 1, all remaining quotas on socks, as well as high-end fabrics, including outerwear apparel, wool suits and sports coats, will be phased out.
JOCK NASH, MILKEN AND COMPANY: It's going to be the final nail in the coffin for a lot of workers, not just in the United States, but in countries throughout the world.
SYLVESTER: Twenty years ago, more than two million Americans worked in the textile and apparel industry, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics. Today, only 700,000 remain. This week, the industry is lobbying the World Trade Organization to keep China from gobbling up more of the world market share.
The Bush administration has agreed to impose safeguard protections temporarily limiting Chinese imports on bras, knits and dressing gowns, but other industries, like socks, are not covered. Retailers argue lifting the quotas is overdue and that consumers will benefit by open trade with China.
ERIK AUTOR, NATIONAL RETAIL FEDERATION: Quotas, as a simple matter of supply and demand economics, by limiting supply increase price. In fact, that's what they are intended to do is ultimately to increase price to the consumer.
SYLVESTER: But textile workers see the quotas as the only thing that have saved their jobs thus far, a protection they will lose at the end of this year.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SYLVESTER: No one, not even the retailers, dispute that China's market share will jump considerably after January 1. Estimates by the World Bank predict that China have capture half of the world apparel market. Other estimates put it as high as 70 percent -- Lou.
DOBBS: Lisa, thank you very much.
And the suggestion that a communist nation paying wages of approximately 30 cents an hour would be suffering at the hands of unfair quotas imposed by this country is quite remarkable, when you think about it.
That brings us to the subject of tonight's thought. The thought is, "Shall we make our own comforts or go without them at the will of a foreign nation? He, therefore, who is now against domestic manufacture must be for reducing us, either to dependence on that foreign nation or to be clothed in skins and to live like wild beasts in dens and caverns. I am not one of these." Those the words of Thomas Jefferson.
Just ahead, Waiting to Exhale. A dramatic warning tonight about Mount St. Helens and the prospect of an eruption.
Also ahead, facing off on foreign policy ahead of tomorrow's presidential presentations. Tonight, a debate between an adviser to the Kerry-Edwards campaign, Jamie Rubin, and a Bush-Cheney adviser Tucker Eskew. They face off without constraint, rules, in total support for free expression on their candidates' policies next.
And, later, I'll be joined by three of the country's leading political journalists. Their forecasts for tomorrow's match-up between President Bush and Senator Kerry.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ANNOUNCER: LOU DOBBS TONIGHT continues. Here now for more news, debate and opinion, Lou Dobbs.
DOBBS: There are what appear to be major developments tonight in Washington State where scientists have issued a volcano advisory for Mount St. Helens. Scientists say there is now a heightened possibility of eruption.
Kimberly Osias joins me now from the Johnson Ridge Observatory that overlooks Mount St. Helens -- Kimberly.
KIMBERLY OSIAS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hello, Lou.
Well, scientists are monitoring the activity here at Mount St. Helens very, very closely. In fact, they're saying in terms of an alert level, it's about a 2. That is from a scale of 0 to 4. It was 0 about a week ago. That's when things started kicking up.
Now you can't see a whole lot of Mount St. Helens. It's obscured quite substantially by the fog. That is what scientists were battling earlier today when they took a chopper and got as close to the crater as possible. They were testing for the second time this week for gases.
They were looking for any kind of CO2 or SO2, and, if you need a little bit of a chemistry brush-up -- I know I sure did -- that is carbon dioxide and sulfur dioxide. Those are the two gases that are emitted if, in fact, there is any kind of movement, any kind of substantial movement at all.
Now they did find today nothing of significance, nothing of statistical significance when they tested on Monday, the first go- around as well.
Now what makes this a bit of a conundrum is you compare that to the activity level, the activity of earthquakes that they've seen. They haven't seen as much activity in a decade. They've seen about 1,000 to 2,000 quakes in the past week.
Now, Lou, just today, I spoke with scientists at the University of Washington. They were seeing about three to four earthquakes a minute.
DOBBS: Kimberly, let me ask you this. There are also indications that the dome itself and the -- we know the northwest section of Mount Helens peak is what blew off in the 1980 eruption, that dome moving up about an inch and a half. What are we to take away from that as an indication of the possibility of an eruption?
OSIAS: That's exactly right, Lou. About an inch and a half northwards. Now what they don't know is the cause of that. It could be this time of year typically a lot of rainwater collects, and it could be heating up and percolating underneath and then steam could actually erupt, or, you know, it could be the gases. That's what's a bit confounding, but they haven't seen anything significant in terms of those gases.
So really it is sort of watching and waiting. Everybody is obviously, as you can well imagine, on pins and needles.
DOBBS: Have they also put forward a warning to people to stay away from the volcano itself?
OSIAS: Well, tours are continuing here at the ridge. Now, for hikers, above 4,800 feet and above, they are not able to hike. Those permits have been stopped. And a couple of trails have been closed.
DOBBS: OK. Kimberly Osias.
We thank you very much for bringing us up to date.
Tomorrow's presidential presentation will focus on two of the most pressing issues facing this country: foreign policy and homeland security. The two issues are at the center of tonight's Face Off.
Here to debate their respective views is Jamie Rubin. He is senior foreign policy adviser to the Kerry-Edwards campaign joining us tonight from Miami.
Jamie, good to have you with us.
JAMIE RUBIN, SENIOR KERRY FOREIGN POLICY ADVISER: Nice to be with you, Lou.
DOBBS: And in our Washington, D.C., studios, Tucker Eskew, who is campaign adviser to President Bush.
Tucker, good to have you with us as well.
Unlike what you'll see tomorrow night, at least what we're told you'll see tomorrow night, Jamie and Tucker have absolutely no rules beyond basic civility. We will not limit your rebuttals, you may look at each other, you may point at each other, you may say whatever you please. We're not constraining you in any way, and if you will so swear -- in other words we're going to have a debate and we thank you both for being here.
Let me then begin with you, Tucker. This president has an accounting to make in the view of Senator Kerry, the judgment that, at least on the part of Secretary of State Powell, that things are not going well in Iraq and national intelligence estimates that forewarned us of what would transpire over the ensuing months since July. What can the president say that is positive on Iraq and convincing to the American people about a plan for stability in Iraq, success, and the safety and security of our troops?
TUCKER ESKEW, BUSH-CHENEY CAMPAIGN ADVISER: Well, Lou, he does have a plan. It's a plan laid out in great specificity and followed through on. Even when times are tough -- and we do have some bad news, some very bad headlines, and that's not to be dismissed -- but we cannot be shifting our great goals and vision in the face of those bad headlines.
Our opponent, unfortunately has a predilection for that. The president has a series of accomplishments in Iraq that are centered around his primary goals as he launched this effort. He went to the world community and said Saddam has had these weapons, he's used them on his people and on his neighbors, you've tried to hold him accountable for that and yet he continues to thumb his nose at the world. It is time now to hold him accountable. We did that and did it in a way also reminding people that it would be tough and that we owed it to the people of that region to help loosen the grip of tyranny.
And we've accomplished much of that. The stockpiles of weapons are not there. The president has acknowledged that, acknowledged that the evidence that was shared across the intelligence community in that regard did not prove accurate. The president has acknowledged that one scenario could be things even tougher, and as we head towards elections in January, a really central goal in this entire effort, he believes that some of that violence could indeed get worse.
It is serious, and yet we are seeing signs of local elections, of schools open, of businesses thriving in the face of new electricity resources for the people of Iraq. There are successes across that great country that do point us toward an ultimate goal of greater freedom for them and more security for the United States and its allies.
DOBBS: Jamie, your candidate has voted, in point of fact, for the authorization that Mr. Bush used to go to war against Iraq to overthrow Saddam Hussein. He has articulated to this point no concrete plan that would remove troops or would resolve the issue in Iraq. What do you expect him to say tomorrow that would be convincing and transcending, if you will?
JAMIE RUBIN, SR. ADVISER TO KERRY-EDWARDS CAMPAIGN: I think what John Kerry will have an opportunity to do tomorrow night is to discuss this issue in detail. You know, the voters get snippets here, headlines there, sound bites there. There's 90 minutes, a lot of this will be taken up with the subject of Iraq. Iraq is a serious subject. And unlike George Bush and Tucker and the others, he's not going to be calling Bush names and throwing these flip-flop charges around.
These are serious issues, and we're going to have a chance for a serious person to discuss them. That means discussing it was correct to hold Saddam Hussein accountable. Nobody is challenging that. What we're challenging is the stewardship of the United States government. George Bush made mistake after mistake after mistake. He ignored the Army chief of staff who said we needed more troops. He ignored the Central Intelligence Agency that said there was going to be chaos. He ignored the State Department. He's ignored any adviser who said anything but happy talk, and the truth is that around the world right now, you know, Lou, this is a financial program often. Remember that commercial with E.F. Hutton?
When George Bush speaks, the world doesn't listen. That's the problem we have right now, because he said that we were going to go to war for weapons of mass destruction. There are no weapons of mass destruction. He went on that aircraft carrier and behind him the sign "mission accomplished." That was more than a year ago, and right now most of the areas of Iraq are difficult and dangerous, and as finally the secretary of state admitted, but Republicans senators, the intelligence community, journalists have admitted, things are getting worse.
We don't need a cheerleader in the White House, we need a serious leader in the White House, and that means leveling with the American people. He has a plan to get us out of Iraq and he's been very concrete about it and will have a chance to do that tomorrow night. But that plan is premised on something new. The person who got us into this mess in Iraq is not the one who will get us out. We need a new leadership with new credibility whose judgment is respected.
DOBBS: So Senator Kerry has a plan that he will share with the American people tomorrow night?
RUBIN: Absolutely. He's going to start by calling for the international community to fulfill its promise to send monitors in, send troops in to protect. George Bush and the Bush campaign boast about all these U.N. resolutions, then they don't lift a finger to get them implemented. We need the rest of the world to stand up, and with George Bush gone and without all this poisoned well and all the bitterness, we can get countries to focus on their national interests and persuade them to assist. Yes, we have some countries with us, but we're paying 90 percent of the cost, 90 percent of the burden, and that's just not good enough.
DOBBS: Tucker?
ESKEW: Well, Lou, this is another example of a campaign that looks down its nose and condescends to those who disagree with it or who are on another side. What John Kerry and his latest round of operatives, not the round that Jamie was part of, but the round that has come just in the last few weeks, really sneered at the prime minister of our strongest ally in the fight for a free Iraq that doesn't threaten our security. Prime Minister Allawi himself was called a puppet by John Kerry's latest adviser on communications.
So, you know, that fits in with a candidate who called our allies the coalition of the coerced and the bribed. I don't think Mr. Rubin's former colleagues at the State Department, even those who might agree with the Kerry position, find that a very good coalition- building or even multilateral effort.
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: Let me ask you gentlemen this...
RUBIN: You said I could interrupt. Let me try that. Are you seriously telling me, Tucker, you read the newspapers, today in "The Washington Post," the world supports John Kerry. Now, they are not voting for us, and that doesn't matter, but for you for suggest just because we criticized the Iraqi prime minister for saying everything's dandy, and because we acknowledge that we have 90 percent of the troops and 90 percent of the burden that we're going to alienate the world? The world wants a new president. We know that. They're not voting, the American people are voting. But the American people have a right to know that the rest of the world supports... ESKEW: We know, Jamie, that John Kerry's got support from any number of unnamed international leaders. He said that himself.
RUBIN: So now you don't want support from foreign leaders? First, you criticized him for...
ESKEW: Jamie, let me finish, OK. Let me finish.
RUBIN: ...for alienating foreign leaders and now we can't have it?
DOBBS: Let me ask you both something...
RUBIN: Which way is it, Tucker?
DOBBS: Let me ask you this, on foreign policy. This country delinked its trade policy from international policy some years ago, gave the president, since we're talking about foreign policy, gave the president effectively all but absolute authority, the Congress did, over what is constitutionally the responsibility of the U.S. Congress -- that is, trade policy. Would either of your candidates, in order to fix what has been a 28-year consecutive string of trade deficits, $4 trillion in debt, a foreign policy -- whether this administration or the previous, frankly, that is ambiguous in its object, would your candidates consider strongly linking our foreign policy and our trade policy, not treaty...
ESKEW: Lou, I think President Bush has done that, in the sense that he sees trade as a very aggressive, very important tool in advancing democracy and freedom, while also improving our own economy. We've actually got long-range efforts underway for a free trade zone within the Middle East, a region beset by so much lack of freedom that it's been called the freedom deficit. There are trade deficits, but a freedom deficit has resulted in less security for the United States and the president is already working on that. He's been a consistent advocate, even if the face, as you'll acknowledge, Lou, of some very severe critics, a very consistent proponent of trade as a tool for our values and for our own economic interests. The same cannot be said for our opponent who has been all over the map on a number of trade issues.
DOBBS: Let's hear from Jamie Rubin who'll have the last -- Jamie, you'll have the last word here tonight.
RUBIN: I appreciate that. John Kerry has been consistently supporting free trade, but unlike George Bush, he's not consistently supporting tax relief for those companies that export jobs outside the United States. He will fix the loophole that George Bush seems to love.
DOBBS: Gentlemen, Tucker Eskew, Jamie Rubin, thank you both for being here.
Coming up next, the countdown to the first presidential presentation is underway. Will the so-called debates sway the voters? Then "America Works." Tonight we'll tell you why one well-known college football coach is respected even more for his contributions off the field. That story and a great deal more still ahead here tonight. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: On the eve of the first presidential presentations, both campaigns claiming their candidates have the clear advantage, but with the strict rules in place for tomorrow's event, there's little chance either candidate will effectively address issues facing Americans today. That would be a somewhat cynical view, but it's shared by many.
Joining me now, three of the countries top political journalist. Roger Simon, political editor, "U.S. News & World Report," in Miami.
Joining me here in New York City, Marcus Mabry, he's chief of correspondent for "Newsweek" magazine.
And Mark Warren is executive editor for "Esquire" magazine.
Good to have you here.
Roger, you're so excited about this presidential presentation as we style it here that you're already there getting warmed up. Are you pretty excited?
ROGER SIMON, "U.S. NEWS & WORLD REPORT": Oh, I'm on the edge of my seat. No, I think it has the potential to be a good presentation or performance or whatever it's supposed to be. Even though there have been all these pages of rules written, I was talking to the co- chairman of the debate commission today, he says nobody has signed on to the rules except for the two candidates. So, if the journalists want to break the rules, if the networks want to do the cutaway shots, they're not supposed to do, he's not going to stop them.
DOBBS: Well -- Marcus, what do you think?
I mean, the idea is this is controlled by both parties. They've signed a 30-page-plus documents to constrain them. And America is going to tune in looking for real differentiation on critical issues like homeland security and Iraq.
MARCUS MABRY "NEWSWEEK": I think America will be disappointed and I don't think it will be the first time. I think however, despite that fact, do not expect a great deal of substance. I think most people know that both of these guys have some vague plans for things like what to do next in Iraq and how to get out of there eventually, but both candidates, those are vague plans, neither candidate has actually filled in. And the fact is neither can really deliver. For instance, an international support, NATO support. France and Russia coming in to into Iraq...
DOBBS: We just heard Jamie Rubin say the world wants Senator John Kerry to be president.
MABRY: That's not because the world wants to send in troops to Iraq. They may favor that, because they do favor Kerry's multilateral in general foreign affairs.
DOBBS: The "Financial Times" at least reported that neither France nor Germany would even consider sending troops to Iraq.
MABRY: That is exactly right. Will you hear anyone talk about that tomorrow night, I don't think so. But the fact is millions will watch this, and probably more undecided voters will want this presentation than any or thing in this campaign so far, and that makes it important.
DOBBS: You just heard me, I presume, you just heard me ask Tucker Eskew and Jamie Rubin, advisers, foreign policy advisers to the respected campaigns, if there will be a linkage between foreign policy and trade policy, with the obvious point of pursuing U.S. national interest. We're not going to hear such a discussion, we're not going to hear anything on immigration policy, do you think?
MARK WARREN, "ESQUIRE MAGAZINE": It will not make the top tier of issues in this debate. I think that, I agree with Ralph Nader on this. This seems to be, as far as immigration goes, almost conspiracy of silence between the campaigns, because the president's tendency toward liberalization and more amnesty is hated by his base, and Senator Kerry's labor base certainly doesn't like any further liberalization either. So I think they will conveniently not talk about it very much.
DOBBS: And meanwhile, we have a foreign policy that is being challenged by such august powers as, say, France, a country of some 80 million people.
And at this point, Roger Simon, what do you think the two candidates will hold forth in terms of their prospective allies and the important of those allying in pursuing U.S. national interest?
Will they be clear about it?
SIMON: I think they'll simply restate their positions, which as we just heard a few minutes ago, are virtually the same. The trouble for John Kerry in this, is that Howard Dean demonstrated that the Democratic Party is an anti-war party this year. Many, many Democrats do not like this war and would like to see the U.S. troops removed. Unfortunately, for them, there is no anti-war candidate running. John Kerry would continue this war, President Bush would continue this war for at least four more years and that's a very optimistic assessment, and for the reasons you already stated, Lou. These allies or at least those allies with large standing armies who could commit to sending troops to Iraq they're going to send their citizens into a meat grinder. They see no profit in it. They see no benefit in it. and they also have the terrible lesson of Spain as to what happens when you risk such a thing.
DOBBS: How important will it be in the discussion tomorrow night, Marcus, that a 1,000 -- more than 1,000 Americans have died in Iraq, more than 7, 000 have been wounded?
The idea, as Dana Bash reported from Miami, the Bush/Cheney campaign putting out a pamphlet making light of, if you will, making fun of Senator Kerry's positions?
It seems to me, at least, to strike altogether the wrong tone.
MABRY: You're absolutely right, Lou. It will be incredibly important that more than 1,000 American service men and women have died in Iraq. The president's challenge tomorrow will be to come a cross as the critic of John Kerry, and the Republicans have done a good job of really lambasting John Kerry, especially since the RNC in Madison Square Garden some weeks ago. But the president has to look really serious. The president has to say, I understand mistakes were made, we are doing better, we will do better and we will do better. And while casting at John Kerry, not belittle the quagmire that we're in in Iraq.
DOBBS: Go ahead, Mark.
WARREN: As we saw from your "Face-off," it seems there's not much percentage with five weeks left for Senator Kerry to compare and contrast himself with the president on Iraq's policy. I think his tack seems to be to really attack the catastrophic judgment, as he sees it, to go to war in the first place.
DOBBS: Must he have a plan, gentlemen?
He's asking the American voters to say change leaders.
MABRY: No.
DOBBS: He doesn't need a plan?
MABRY: All he needs to do is show the American voters you can trust me. You can rely on me. You can count on me. Ronald Reagan did that brilliantly in his debates against Carter. That's all Kerry has to do.
WARREN: What -- the thing he's got to do, the most important thing, which he's not even begun is to establish himself as a leadership alternative. That's astonishing with only five weeks left, that he's done such a poor job of it.
DOBBS: Roger, you get the last word.
SIMON: I don't think he can do that without the plan, however. He's the challenger. He's not the incumbent. He's not the commander in chief. All polls shows he loses on these questions, and for him to challenge a incumbent president, he has to show he has better ideas and a better plan for the future in Iraq than George Bush does, not merely that mistakes were made.
MABRY: The president will have to answer for his mistakes. The president will be held as accountable as well, though. And that's the president's challenge.
DOBBS: Gentlemen we are out of time. We'll see it resolved, I'm sure in Miami.
Marcus, Mark, Roger, thank you, and we appreciate you being here.
Coming up next, a coach, a football legend at one of the nation's Big Ten Schools, a winning record only one way in which his success has been measured. We'll have his story, next. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: For an incredible 55 years and 609 games, Joe Paterno has Penn State football. With two national titles, five undefeated seasons, 341 career wins, Paterno is one of the most successful coaches ever. But for the man known as Joe Pa, coaching his team to victory on the field is only part of his commitment to players. Bill Tucker has his story in tonight's "America Works."
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BILL TUCKER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Coach Paterno is more than just one of a kind, he may be the last of his kind. Division 1 college football is now a place where a coach's success is measured by the number of wins, not the graduation rate, not the academic achievement of the players. That's not the way Paterno sees it.
JOE PATERNO, PSU FOOTBALL COACH: I think it's a waste of time to come to college if you don't get something off it academically. I mean, football is a game.
TUCKER: 742 coaches have come and gone at division 1 schools since Paterno took over a at Penn State in 1966. And during his time, Paterno's teams have had 31 bowl appearances, 5 undefeated seasons and two national championships. He's also produced 30 academic all- Americans, and Penn State ranks No. 1 in graduation rates for division 1 student athletes. Fred Demler was a member of Paterno's undefeated team in 1973. He now heads global metals trading for Man Financial.
FRED DEMLER, MAN FINANCIAL: His whole view was doing your very best, but in doing your very best, doesn't mean doing your very best just at the game, it meant preparing yourself, understanding your opponent, studying your opponent. And he felt as though in the business world, you should be doing the same.
TUCKER: Tom Bill played quarterback in the late '80s, early 90's. He now coaches high school football in New Jersey.
TOM BILL, HIGH SCHOOL FOOTBALL COACH: Coach Paterno was absolutely instrumental in my life, in showing me and teaching me that there are no cutting corners. If you cut corners, the results speak for themselves. When you do it the right way, it doesn't guarantee victory, but it really does guarantee dignity.
PATERNO: People say, what do you stand for? I don't know. I try to get up in the morning, try to be fair. I want to stand up in front of a team and say, this is what I expect of you, and not be a hypocrite.
TUCKER: Perhaps there's nothing that better expresses the values of Coach Paterno than this building. It's a library. He led the fund-raising efforts for its newest addition. He and his wife contributed to it, and it bears his name, ensuring that his legacy lasts well beyond a simple career in football. Bill Tucker, State College, Pennsylvania.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: Taking a look now at some of your thoughts.
Patricia Josh of British Columbia, Canada, "Lou, as a Canadian who loves both CNN and American politics, I was wonder since the U.S. is handing out driver's permits and possibly voting rights to illegal aliens from Mexico, can we northern neighbors get on it too. I really would like to vote. I won't even move there to steal someone's job, or free health care."
Gary Morrison in Tulare, California, "Wouldn't helping an illegal alien get a driver's license be the same as harboring a fugitive? Or at the very least, be considered aiding and abetting? I thought it was against the law to help someone break the law."
We love hearing your thoughts. Send us those thoughts at loudobbs@cnn.com. Please send us your name and address. Each of you whose e-mail is read here, receives a free copy of my new book on the assault on the middle class, "Exporting America."
Still ahead, the results of our poll tonight.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: The results of our poll tonight: 98 percent of you, we consider that to be an overwhelming majority here, thought it a little ironic that American pharmaceutical companies outsource jobs in research an development, while the American consumer is not permitted to buy imported drugs. 2 percent of you did not find either irony or humor in that question.
And last, we thank you for voting. And we thank you for being with us here tonight. Please join us tomorrow. David Frome, former speechwriter for President Bush, Michael Waldman, former speechwriter for President Clinton, they join us ahead of the first presidential presentation in Miami tomorrow night.
For all of us here, good night from New York. "ANDERSON COOPER 360" is next.
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