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Lou Dobbs Tonight

Russian Forces May Have Moved Iraq Explosives; Bush, Kerry Controversy Over Iraq Explosives Continues

Aired October 28, 2004 - 18:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


ANNOUNCER: Tonight, a stunning development in the controversy over missing Iraqi explosives. A top Pentagon official says Russian special forces removed the explosives before the U.S. invasion. We'll have complete coverage.
Five days to go. President Bush and Senator Kerry intensify their attacks on each other and their national security policies.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. JOHN K. KERRY (D-MA), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: As president, I will fight a tougher, smarter, more effective war.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: John Kerry is the wrong man for the wrong job at the wrong time.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: Defending Democracy. The Justice Department is sending an unprecedented number of officials to polling places to defend the integrity of our voting system. But local officials in key states tonight are already turning away international observers.

And a dramatic increase in violence against Border Patrol agents by illegal aliens and drug traffickers. Mexican drug cartels have even offered a bounty for the killing of a U.S. law-enforcement officer.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JUAN AGUIRRE, ROMA, TEXAS, POLICE DEPARTMENT: It makes me mad that we're trying to do our job and -- for them to have something like that on us.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: Tonight, a special report.

This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT for Thursday, October 28. Here now for an hour of news, debate and opinion from CNN Center, Lou Dobbs.

LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening. New developments tonight in the escalating controversy over missing explosives in Iraq. A senior Pentagon official says Russian troops almost certainly removed those explosives from Iraq before the U.S.-led invasion. Deputy Undersecretary of Defense John Shaw told "The Washington Times" and "The Financial Times" that the Russians shipped those explosives to Syria.

We have two reports tonight: Senior Pentagon Correspondent Jamie McIntyre in Washington; Kitty Pilgrim in New York. We begin with Jamie McIntyre -- Jamie.

JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN SENIOR PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Well, Lou, today, senior Pentagon officials reporting a lot of distance between themselves and those comments from John Shaw, who, as you said, is a deputy undersecretary of defense.

He did tell the newspapers, including "The Washington Times," that he believes Russian troops working with Iraqi intelligence, a quote here, "almost certainly removed the high explosives material" that was missing from al Qa Qaa, south of Baghdad.

But, today, the Pentagon undercut those statements, saying that they had no intelligence that would corroborate that assessment, and, just a short time ago, earlier this afternoon, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld in a radio interview on WABC in New York said he had no information to confirm what Mr. Shaw said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: No, I have no information on that at all and cannot validate that even slightly.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MCINTYRE: Larry DiRita, the Pentagon spokesman, said that as far as he knew, there was no incredible intelligence to support that conclusion. He said it was not a view held by senior members of the Pentagon, and he pointed out that Mr. Shaw was "not speaking for the Pentagon."

Meanwhile, he did say that officials -- senior officials here, his bosses, are talking to him to find out what he was thinking when he made that comment.

And, Lou, one more thing. The Pentagon late tonight is working to release a photograph that they believe will show that there was activity at the al Qa Qaa facility well before U.S. troops got there, but they concede it's not going to be conclusive evidence that the explosives were moved from the site.

DOBBS: Jamie, let's begin with the first element of that. Has the Defense Department made any statement about whether there were or were not Russians in Iraq from the period January 2003 to March of 2003?

MCINTYRE: They have not made any statement that there were no Russians. They have not ruled that out. They also have noted that the Russians have very good special forces. But they do say they have no intelligence that would support the conclusion that they helped move these explosives out of al Qa Qaa.

DOBBS: OK. Jamie McIntyre, our senior Pentagon correspondent.

Thank you.

Russia sold more weapons to Saddam Hussein's regime than to any other country in the world. There were even reports, denied by Russia, that Russian companies sold weapons to Iraq even at the time American troops were launching the invasion.

Kitty Pilgrim reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KITTY PILGRIM, CNN BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Russia had a long military partnership with Iraq throughout the '70s and '80s, and billions of dollars of arms were supplied by the Soviet Union and later Russia.

After the first Gulf War, when the U.N. embargo was imposed on Iraq, experts say major weapons sales of tanks and planes stopped, but smaller arms and equipment were much harder to keep track of.

DIMITRI SIMES, THE NIXON CENTER: There were a lot of private Russian contractors in Iraq, and some of them, obviously, former military officers. There were many contractors in Iraq, quite a few in the oil business, many in construction.

But, also, there were instances where the Russians supplied military items, like night goggles, and, obviously, this was a contribution to Iraqi military capabilities.

PILGRIM: The Russia-Iraq arms connection had been strong. The Federation of American Scientists monitors arms sales and says, between 1973 and 1990, nearly 60 percent of Iraq's major weapons were purchased from Russia, some $24 billion worth. France was the second largest provider at 12 percent, and China third at 11 percent.

Sales of small arms, light weapons or explosives were not closely counted, but would boost that figure.

As to whether the explosives at al Qa Qaa were of Russian origin, experts say it's technically possible they were, but nearly impossible to say definitively.

IVAN OELRICH, FEDERATION OF AMERICAN SCIENTISTS: The high explosive, as far as I know, no one knows exactly where that came from, but, certainly, Russia would be one supplier of RDX and similar kinds of explosives. They could have got it from them. These things could easily be two decades old.

(END VIDEOTAPE) PILGRIM: And we know that Iraqis buried certain weaponry before the Gulf War, but many experts we talked to were perplexed why Russia would want to help move conventional explosives in Iraq -- Lou.

Kitty, thank you.

Kitty Pilgrim.

Russia today said it is absurd and ridiculous to suggest that Russian troops removed explosives from Iraq. The Russian defense ministry insisted all Russian military experts left Iraq when the United Nations imposed international sanctions during the 1991 Gulf War.

The top Russian diplomat in Iraq said there were no Russian special forces in Iraq before the war, only civilian employees working for foreign companies.

Later here in this broadcast, we'll have more on the escalating controversy over what happened to those Iraqi explosives. I'll be talking with "The Financial Times" correspondent who talked with Deputy Undersecretary John Shaw at the program and who has covered the relationship between Russia and Iraq for a number of years.

I'll also be talking with General David Grange about the Pentagon's perspective on this unfolding story.

The missing explosives were again an issue on the campaign trail today. Senator Kerry said the explosives' disappearance proves this country needs a president who can take responsibility. Senator Kerry today campaigned in Ohio and Wisconsin.

Frank Buckley reports from Madison, Wisconsin.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BRUCE SPRINGSTEEN, SINGER: Well, we've made a promise...

FRANK BUCKLEY, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Bruce Springsteen played "No Surrender" for an estimated 80,000 John Kerry supporters, as Kerry showed no sign of letting up on the missing explosives in Iraq.

KERRY: Now George Bush's shifting explanations, an effort to blame everybody except themselves, is evidence that he believes the buck stops anywhere but with the president.

BUCKLEY: It was day four of Kerry's criticism of the president on the missing explosives, coming as the senator tries to rally the faithful to vote.

Today, Kerry responding to the president who said that the senator couldn't be commander in chief because he jumps to conclusions without knowing the facts.

KERRY: They're not where they're supposed to be. You were warned to guard them. You didn't guard them. They're not secure. And guess what? According to George Bush's own word, he shouldn't be our commander in chief and I couldn't agree more.

BUCKLEY: The Kerry campaign also went after Bush surrogate Rudy Giuliani after he said this to NBC's Matt Lauer.

RUDY GIULIANI (R), FORMER MAYOR OF NEW YORK CITY: No matter how you try to blame it on president, the actual responsibility for it really would be for the troops that were there. Did they search carefully enough? Didn't they search carefully enough?

BUCKLEY: The Kerry campaign saying that was an example of a "excuse: presidency. The Bush campaign claimed Kerry was distorting Giuliani's comments.

(on camera): Kerry advisers say the criticism on the missing explosives will continue through the final days of the campaign, with Kerry trying to broaden the argument to include what one senior strategist described as all of the wrong choices the president has made.

Frank Buckley, CNN, Madison, Wisconsin.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

DOBBS: President Bush today declared Senator Kerry as "the wrong man for the wrong job at the wrong time." President Bush is today campaigning in Michigan, Ohio and Pennsylvania.

Dana Bash reports from Westlake, Ohio.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DANA BASH, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): A closing argument, a speech about leadership.

BUSH: The senator's willingness to trade principle for political convenience makes it clear that John Kerry is the wrong man for the wrong job at the wrong time.

BASH: The president's rhetoric perhaps the harshest to date, asking what the senator's "lack of conviction" would mean.

BUSH: If you make things uncomfortable, if you stir up trouble, John Kerry will back off, and that's a very dangerous signal to send during this time.

BASH: Mr. Bush is also trying to defend against Kerry's relentless attacks he is responsible for missing explosives in Iraq. Kerry aides hope it's going to sway undecideds skeptical about the war.

BUSH: Senator Kerry will say anything to get elected.

BASH: Bush aides say the senator's jumping to conclusions on unsubstantiated information. And at a midday stop in Ohio, they called in Tommy Franks, the general who commanded the Iraq war, to defend the president.

GEN. TOMMY FRANKS (RET.), FORMER CENTCOM COMMANDER: We do not yet have all of the facts about 380 tons of munitions in Iraq, and he is a president who will look at you and say we don't yet have the facts, but we will get the facts. George W. Bush.

BASH: The president's retaliations aimed at what his campaign calls the senator's biggest weak spot. When asked if John Kerry changes issues for political reasons, 65 percent said yes, only 36 percent said the same of the president.

If leadership's your theme, you can't just talk down your opponents without talking up your own. For this president, that means evoking 9/11, here in unusually lofty terms.

BUSH: I've learned to expect the unexpected because history can deliver sudden horror from a soft autumn sky.

BASH: Team Bush is following the classic final day's playbook, create the aura of a winner...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You're still the one / I want to talk to in bed / Still the one...

BASH: ... a new theme song, packed-in raucous crowds, even confetti.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We're still having fun / And you're still the one...

BASH (on camera): But as much as the Bush campaign wants to appear confident, the president's razor sharp rhetoric may be an indication there is concern that Senator Kerry's attacks on his leadership may be sticking.

Dana Bash, CNN, Westlake, Ohio.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

DOBBS: Still ahead here, foreign election observers in this country are being turned away from polling places in key swing states. We'll have that report for you next.

And will your vote count this year? The voting system in Ohio, one of the most critical swing states in this election, near the breaking point. We'll have that special report.

And the Justice Department is now sending an unprecedented number of officials to polling places all around the country to monitor this presidential election.

All of that and a great deal more still ahead right here.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) DOBBS: Thousands of voter registrations in Ohio have already been challenged in what could be one of the closest elections in the country. The latest polls show President Bush and Senator Kerry in a statistical dead heat in the race for Ohio's 20 electoral votes.

Joe Johns reports from Columbus, Ohio, in our special report Democracy at Risk.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JOE JOHNS, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): With tens of thousands of newly registered voters challenged by Ohio Republicans before the election, the system is already showing signs of confusion.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. Chairman, these ballots...

JOHNS: In some smaller counties, hearings to verify the residency of voters began Thursday, but, in six other counties, including two of the largest which encompass Cleveland and Columbus, challenged voters showed up for hearings only to find they'd been halted the day before by a federal judge.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Your right to vote has been challenged by a qualified elector.

JOHNS; The Ohio Republican Party says it filed its challengers after sending letters to newly registered voters returned as undeliverable.

MARK WEAVER, OHIO GOP ELECTION ATTORNEY: Here in Ohio, we regularly send out mailers to new registrants, saying welcome to being a voter and please vote for our candidates. This time, when we sent out those new mailers, we had thousands, tray loads coming back saying no such person lives here.

JOHNS: But Democrats argue undeliverable mail doesn't necessarily mean a person's registration should be thrown out, that there may be innocent reasons.

MYRON MARLIN, DEMOCRATIC PARTY SPOKESMAN: It's a guess that somebody might be serving in the military. Many of these cases have people -- have addresses here in Ohio that are just simply addresses of record, but not places where they receive mail.

It suggests that people might not have a mailbox, but instead a post office box. It suggests that people may have been living in a dorm room and didn't have their right dorm room number down, so lots of students have been attacked. It suggests that maybe somebody moved from one part of the county to the next.

CHRISTOPHER SMITH, OHIO RESIDENT: Then also on the ladder...

JOHNS: Case in point: Christopher Smith of Bexley. He changed addresses here in September, and somebody misspelled his new street name in the election's computer. His registration was challenged. SMITH: I feel it is my right to rote. I want to vote, and they're not going to rob me of it just because I moved.

JOHNS: This leaves local election officials scrambling and hoping to be prepared for Tuesday.

MATTHEW DAMSCHRODER, FRANKLIN COUNTY ELECTION BOARD: Coming out of the year 2000, I mean, there's a lot of confusion anyway, and I think this just goes to further add to that confusion.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

JOHNS: And the legal wrangling continues over disputed voter registrations. There is even a new lawsuit filed by an Ohio civil- rights activist alleging challenges on Election Day could intimidate minority voters -- Lou.

DOBBS: Joe, thank you.

Ohio -- I talked with representatives -- actually the field generals there in Ohio last night, Republican and Democrat. Is there any sign that this is going to be an orderly election at all in Ohio?

JOHNS: Well, they certainly hope so, and there is some belief that they can pull it off. However, the proof is in the courts right now, and there are a number of lawsuits making their way through, some in Cincinnati.

It's clear there will be a lot more legal wrangling and people are already predicting there will be long lines and holdups as the challenges go forward -- Lou.

DOBBS: And, as you've just reported, a federal judge in Ohio ruling against those hearings on those challenges, after issuing a temporary restraining order earlier in the day. So the litigation is well underway.

Joe Johns.

Thanks very much.

A group of foreigners hoping to observe the presidential election is complaining tonight that they've been shut out of some polling places. The group says it is "shocked" that election officials in both Florida and Ohio have refused to allow them to monitor the voting.

The observers, which hail from Europe, Mexico and elsewhere, were invited by the nongovernmental group Global Exchange. One Miami-Dade election official told us that the Florida county has ample independent observers place, and he will not be able to accommodate uninvited foreign observers.

Separately tonight, the Justice Departments says it will send more than a thousand of its election observers to polling places around the country come Tuesday. That is more than three times the number of federal observers who monitored the presidential election four years ago.

Kelli Arena reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KELLI ARENA, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It's the biggest effort ever of its kind. Nearly 1,100 federal election monitors and observers will descend on counties in 25 states, including the key battleground states of Ohio, Pennsylvania and Florida. They'll be watching for civil rights or criminal abuses.

JOHN TANNER, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE CIVIL RIGHTS DIVISION: Our enforcement first is focused on solving problems as promptly as possible on Election Day. That is the main reason we are there, so the voters can cast their ballots freely without fear or intimidation.

ARENA: Justice Department officials have said in general that they're headed to jurisdictions where there have been problems before or where there are current allegations of wrongdoing. But officials did not specifically cite reasons for choosing the counties they did, frustrating voting rights groups.

JULIE FERNANDES, LEADERSHIP CONFERENCE ON CIVIL RIGHTS: For example, in Arizona, our specific concern is that Latino voters are going to be challenged based on their citizenship. So we want to know are poll monitors going to be deployed in areas that are heavily Latino to ensure that that community is not being improperly targeted. This release, though telling us they'll be in Arizona, does not give us that assurance.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The Voting Bill promises a profound effect.

ARENA: Justice officials say voting rights issues have evolved significantly since the Voting Rights Act was passed nearly 40 years ago. For example, discrimination against African-Americans has fallen, but has increased against non-English speakers, and, for the first time, officials will make sure disabled voters are granted equal access.

What's more, unlike past elections, there will not be any prosecutors at the polls to avoid any claims of possible intimidation.

TANNER: No more political appointees. No prosecutors helping out as in the past. Not even Civil Rights Division prosecutors. Only career Civil Rights Division personnel.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ARENA: Justice officials say their main goal is to maintain as low-key a presence as possible. They say if they're doing their job right, you won't know they are there -- Lou.

DOBBS: And to what degree is the Justice Department with these monitors expressing concern about already the documented registration of known terrorists on voter roles, the registration of illegal aliens in a number of states? Are they also going to be presiding over those issues that are confronting the integrity of the electoral system?

ARENA: Justice is not commenting specifically on any investigations that it's opened, whether they be civil rights or criminal investigations, Lou, but, obviously, if they rise to the level of a federal crime, that would be something that would fall under their jurisdiction.

DOBBS: Thank you very much, Kelli.

When we continue here, outrage tonight over increasing violence along our border with Mexico. U.S. Border Patrol agents are literally under attack. We'll have that special report.

And then, new information tonight in the investigation of missing explosives in Iraq.

All of that and a great deal more still ahead here tonight.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: This just in to CNN. CNN has just obtained new information about what may have happened at the Iraqi storage facility where 380 tons of powerful explosives disappeared.

We're going now to our senior correspondent at the Pentagon, Jamie McIntyre -- Jamie.

MCINTYRE: Well, Lou, as we reported earlier this hour, the Pentagon is releasing a picture that it says shows activity at the al Qa Qaa site before the war started.

Now, again, the Pentagon officials are the first to tell you this picture doesn't prove anything, but what it does show is that on March 17, three days before the war started, there was activity at these bunkers.

You can see in the yellow squares that are shown in this picture one of the bunkers where there's a truck and a heavy equipment transporter parked in front of the bunker. That's the one that we're zooming in now.

Just below there is another bunker which has been identified as one of those that was supposed to contain the HMX, the high explosives that have been missing. Now, again, this does not show that high explosive being taken away from the site.

But many critics have suggested that the Pentagon's story doesn't hold water because they have would seen things moving if they moved before the war, and what the Pentagon is saying is that this does show things moving, but, again, they can't say exactly what's being moved -- Lou.

DOBBS: No answers still on any -- on any angle of this story, but we're resolving at least what should be some of the questions more definitively.

Jamie McIntyre, thank you. Keep us up to date, of course, as you always do.

Jamie McIntyre, our senior Pentagon correspondent.

Still ahead tonight, more on the controversy over those missing explosives. Tonight, the role the Russians may have played. I'll be joined by one of "The Financial Times" correspondents who broke that story next. I'll also be joined by General David Grange.

And a nation sharply divided. Five days to go. I'll be joined by "Vanity Fair"'s editor in chief Graydon Carter, an outspoken critic of President Bush; conservative columnist John Leo, who supports President Bush; and -- Did I mention Al Franken? -- Al, too.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ANNOUNCER: We continue now with more news, debate and opinion. From CNN Center, Lou Dobbs.

DOBBS: In Broken Borders tonight, deadly violence against U.S. Border Patrol agents is on the rise. Mexican drug cartels are offering bounties for the lives of U.S. law-enforcement agents working along the Mexican border.

Casey Wian reports from Los Angeles.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The funeral of two Texas Border Patrol agencies who drowned in the Rio Grande, a grim reminder of the escalating danger on the Mexican border.

In nearby Roma, Texas, reports of Mexican drug cartels offering a bounty of up to $50,000 for the killing of any border region law- enforcement officer.

AGUIRRE: It makes me mad that we're trying to did our job, and -- for them to have something like that on us.

WIAN: On the Mexican side, Mexico's military has been deployed to combat a recent wave of drug and gang violence. Mexican and Central American gangs have spread their drug and immigrant smuggling operations to the United States.

HEATHER MACDONALD, MANHATTAN INSTITUTE: There's no reason why a committed al Qaeda terrorist can't present themselves to these same groups, be it Mara Salvatrucha or the 18th Street gang in Southern California and say here's the cash, bring me a cross.

WIAN: Near Tucson, 118 Border Patrol agents were assaulted last fiscal year.

So far this month, 13 more attacks about double last year's rate. They ranged from a dozen shots fired from Mexico at agents patrolling this notorious crossing point known as Hamburger Hill to the attempted ramming of a Border Patrol helicopter by an illegal alien in a pickup truck.

Some blame the strategy of deploying agents in highly visible fixed positions along the border and restrictions on pursuits of suspected alien smugglers.

T.J. BONNER, NATIONAL BORDER PATROL COUNCIL: I would like to say that this increase in violence is tied to an increase in our effectiveness, but it's not. It's as easy today, if not easier to cross the border than at any other mine our nation's history.

WIAN: In Santa Ana, California Sunday a botched smuggling deal led to a SWAT team stand-off and an apartment complex evacuation. Police say an admitted smuggler went to collect payment for his illegal aliens. Instead he was robbed, carjacked and kidnapped. Three of the alleged robbers are in custody, three others escaped.

(on camera): The smuggler who police say is a legal U.S. resident was not arrested. Federal immigration authorities say they're watching the case closely but say they haven't arrested the smuggler because he's needed as I witness in the local police investigation.

Casey Wian, CNN, Los Angeles.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

DOBBS: An Arizona judge today dismissed a challenge against Proposition 200, saying that it came simply too late. That immigration initiative will remain on the Arizona ballot. There's no word yet on whether the groups supporting, it will appeal. Proposition 200 will require proof of citizenship to vote and to receive state benefits. Proponents say that initiative will curve voter and benefit fraud by illegal aliens, by points say there was discrepancies between the petitions used to put the measure on the ballot and the proposition itself.

Support for the initiative is now fairly strong. The latest "Arizona Republic" Poll says 55 percent of Arizona citizens are in favor of Proposition 200.

Returning now to the developing story, 380 tons of missing Iraqi explosives a short time ago, the Pentagon released a photograph showing trucks at Iraqi facility just days before the beginning of the war.

Jamie McIntyre reporting from the Pentagon on that development. Now, a top Pentagon official tonight is accusing Russia of removing explosives from the al Qa Qaa storage facility in Iraq before the invasion. Deputy undersecretary of defense, John Shaw, made the accusation in an interview with the "Financial Times, "

Joining me the "Financial Times" journalist who spoke to Undersecretary Shaw and broke the story, Demetri Sevastopulo.

Good to have you with us.

DEMETRI SEVASTOPULO, "FINANCIAL TIMES": Thank you, Lou.

DOBBS: Demetri, let's begin. Jamie McIntyre, our Pentagon correspondent, reporting tonight that the Pentagon is trying to knock down the undersecretary's comments.

Why -- what would be the reason for that?

SEVASTOPULO: Well, the Deputy Undersecretary Shaw has a very strained relationship with Larry Di Rita and some of the people in Rumsfeld's office. He says he was working with Department of Defense inspector general on an investigation and in the course of his investigation, he came across intelligence suggesting that the Russians had brought some of the Iraqi munitions, including the explosives, out of Iraq.

DOBBS: Demetri, we have reported here extensively on the relationship between Russia and Saddam Hussein's Iraq, that dates back, as Kitty Pilgrim documented, decades. What is your best understanding and your reporting on that relationship between Russia and Saddam Hussein's Iraq?

SEVASTOPULO: Well, it's clear from the recent report by Charles Duelfer and the Iraq survey group that the Russians or at least some semi-state Russian companies were involved in smuggling goods, includes into weapons, into Iraq in the 1990s breaking sanctions. So, we know they have a history bringing things out. But the news from Mr. Shaw is that they've now been taking things out of Iraq rather than sending them in.

DOBBS: And taking them out specifically in this case, according to Undersecretary Shaw, to Syria. The fact is, Russia has denied categorically in rather strong terms that they were involved, that they had special forces troops, their Spetznaz -- special forces troops in Iraq at that time.

What are -- what are your thoughts?

SEVASTOPULO: Well, we know that the Bush administration has already had some concerns about Iraq -- excuse me, but Russian activities in Iraq before the war. During the war itself, President Bush called President Putin expressing concern, that semi-state Russian companies were selling anti-tank missiles to some of the Iraqi military. And the Russians denied this of course and say they're investigating but nothing has come out of that so far.

DOBBS: And the idea, there were reports at the outset of the invasion of Iraq of munitions, equipment being shipped to Iraq and we have heard very precious little about any of those statements from this administration in the year and a half since. Do you have any -- any way in which to assess those reports at this stage?

SEVASTOPULO: I don't think at this point we have any new information on that, and the administration hasn't been forthcoming but the key question here is the munitions have gone missing. You now have a Pentagon official on the record saying he thinks this is what happened. And the Pentagon hasn't been as clear as they could be in saying they don't believe that's the case.

DOBBS: OK. In your judgment then, Demetri, you don't be believe the Pentagon has been strong enough in knocking down Undersecretary Shaw's comments?

SEVASTOPULO: Well, on these kind of stories, it's rare that you have a senior public official coming out on the record and putting their name to it. So I think -- I'm surprised that the Pentagon hasn't actually come out more strongly, either behind him or against him and come to some kind of a decision on this.

DOBBS: Demetri, thank you very much. We appreciate your being here and your reporting from the "Financial Times."

SEVASTOPULO: Thank you.

DOBBS: Joining me now from Chicago is General David Grange.

General, good to have you with us.

This is a remarkable situation that the Pentagon is in. Jamie McIntyre reporting, as you've just witnessed, activity around the al Qa Qaa facility. And showing activity there just days before the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq.

What do you make of both Undersecretary Shaw's statements about the Russia, the movement of HMX and RDX explosives in whatever quantities, unclear yet what quantities, to Syria by Russia?

BRIG. GEN. DAVID GRANGE (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Well, the only thing I can make of it, Lou, is why would you -- why would you -- why would Russia want to take the stuff out unless it -- it is evidence that they were supplying the Iraqis early on and breaking sanctions?

What would they do with it?

So, it's hard for me to believe that the Russians want to extract it except to hide evidence. Russian, the French, the Chinese, many other countries were involved in Iraq up to the wartime to some degree providing some type of support through business relations. And so that doesn't surprise me there's a lot of movement and stuff.

DOBBS: Purpose of these explosives, what possible reason could there have been for Saddam Hussein to have had so much of the HMX and RDX stored and why should they have been permitted in Saddam Hussein's Iraq?

GRANGE: Well, a lot of that type of explosive can be used for multiple weaponry. Whether it be something with WMD, tied to a WMD capability. It could be just for convention efficient use. It could be used for explosives to -- for terrorists. It's a multiple use of this type of stuff. So it's valuable to him.

DOBBS: To what extent and how recently, general, do you know that there was a relationship between Russia and Iraq in both the trade in arms and a training relationship between Russia and Iraq?

GRANGE: Well, historically, it goes back to the Soviets with the Iraqi military. I mean, the Iraqi Army was trained and equipped with Soviet doctrine with Soviet equipment and weaponry. Actually that was good for us, because if you notice all of the tanks burning in a battle -- battlefield, they were Russian -- that was mostly Russian equipment that was destroyed by coalition forces, inferior to U.S. weapons and that type of equipment. But they've had ongoing relationship for a long time and it's something you don't end overnight. And I believe up to right before the ground war started.

DOBBS: Up until the ground war started?

GRANGE: I believe that, yes.

DOBBS: All right. Then on March 19, 2003. General David Grange, as always, we thank you for your insight.

GRANGE: My pleasure.

DOBBS: Still ahead here tonight a nation divided. A contest that's too close to call, this campaign has highlighted considerable discord in this country. We'll be talking with "Vanity Fair's" editor in chief, Graydon Carter and syndicated columnist John Leo, right here next.

And then liberal talk show radio host Al Franken has made no secret who he supports. He's my guest. That and a great deal more still ahead. Please stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: I'm joined now by two prominent journalists, one of whom is a vocal supporter of President Bush. The other, one of his biggest critics. Graydon Carter, that critic. The editor-in-chief of "Vanity Fair" magazine. Author of a scathing book on the Bush administration entitled "What We've Lost."

John Leo, a columnist for "U.S. News and World Report" who supports President Bush. His columns, by the way, syndicated in 120 papers.

Both gentleman join us tonight from New York City. Good to have you here.

John, let me begin with you. Has the president been seriously injured by these attacks by Senator Kerry over the missing HMX and RDX explosives?

JOHN LEO, "U.S. NEWS AND WORLD REPORT": So far, he has. We don't if the story's true or not. "The New York Times" said flatly that White House and Pentagon officials acknowledged that the weapons were gone before the American-led invasion, but that appears not to be so. The White House does not acknowledge that at all. So, the story's been oversold and was intentionally delayed. CBS intended to run it 36 hours before the polls opened, which is by my standards an unethical bit of journalism.

DOBBS: Do you agree with that Graydon?

GRAYDON CARTER, "VANITY FAIR": I would stand to agree with John. There is no real evidence yet about when these explosives disappeared or didn't disappear. But I do think it is proven that they disappeared after the Americans went in it's very much like the crazy Eddie story -- stores during the New York black out. That there probably was a lot of looting. And if we did go in for weapons of mass destruction, then we should have protected the ones that were there, if they were there.

DOBBS: Let me ask you, Graydon. Right now, we're getting a lot of -- the lawsuits have begun. Charges of intimidation, charges of fraud have already begun five days before the election. What is your thought about how this is going to end on November 2 and whether it will end on November 2?

CARTER: I think to your point, I don't think tell end on November 2. I think that just the heated polarization of this campaign is that both groups are having watchers at the polls. And you can clearly see there is going to be scuffles, or serious violence at the polls. And I think you are calling in the National Guard under normal circumstances, but they're all in Iraq. And I think it will -- it's not going to end the night of November 2.

DOBBS: John, your thoughts?

LEO: Well, I'm disturbed that the Democrats have apparently 10,000 lawyers ready to act on November 2. I mean, this is no lawyer left behind act. It would have been nice if we had a chance to pick the president ourselves.

DOBBS: To that end, just exactly in your best judgment, how many attorneys do you think the Republican Party has, if the Democrats have 10,000? You don't think there's going to be an attorney gap here do you, John?

LEO: I have no idea. The Republicans don't brag about having 10,000.

DOBBS: Is there any reason for Republicans to brag, Graydon?

CARTER: Well first of all, the Republicans have run a very good campaign. If I was -- if I was taking it even further, I would offer a free flu shot for every person who voted for my party and I think then you got a great turnout.

DOBBS: Well that turn out is going to be critical. And that brings me to the opportunity to ask you both, who's going to, in your best judgment, win, and what number of electoral votes? I'll begin with you, John?

LEO: Oh, I haven't got it measured by electoral votes. I think Bush will edge it out at last minute.

DOBBS: Graydon?

CARTER: I think it'll be tight. I think the American people, Lou because I think whoever wins, you're going to have half the country who has absolutely no faith in their leader. And I think going forward, that is a very serious divide that a husbands and wives, or neighbors or brothers and sisters are going to have great difficulty talking about what's going on in the country with each other, because they are as polarized as could be.

DOBBS: Last night on this broadcast, we ran a poll, and asked if after the election, our viewers whether they'd be able to get behind either Senator Kerry or President Bush no matter who won the election. And about 66 percent of them said no. Sort of a disturbing development, but sort of a sign of the times as well.

Gentlemen, thanks for being here. Graydon Carter, John Leo, good to talk to you both. And it's good to see that there is great civility between the two of you, as I would expect nothing less.

Coming up, author and comedian Al Franken, speaking of civility, says in his view, President Bush may be the worst president this country's has ever had. Al and I will talk civilly next.

And 5 days and counting to the election. I'll be joined by 3 of the country's very best political journalists to tell us where we are and where we're headed come November 2. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: My next guest is highly critical of the Bush administration, saying the president is possibly the worst ever. And he announced his endorsement of Senator Kerry last week.

Now, Al Franken is the radio host for Air America, author of "Lies and the Lying Liars Who Tell Them." And he joins me tonight from New York City.

AL FRANKEN, COMEDIAN: Thank you, Lou.

DOBBS: You don't like President Bush. You do like Senator Kerry. Was it just sort of dramatic suspense to wait till last week to endorse Senator Kerry?

FRANKEN: Yes. We let our audience know, my radio show on Air America on Monday that we were going to endorse on Friday.

DOBBS: Was that Air America, Al?

FRANKEN: Air America Radio.

DOBBS: Air America Radio, Al Franken.

FRANKEN: Yes.

DOBBS: Now, with that endorsement, do you expect that will push Senator Kerry over the top here 5 days from the election? FRANKEN: I think that every little bit helps. That it should -- I actually think -- I know that you were asking Graydon Carter and John Leo their predictions, I actually think the race is going to be...

DOBBS: Wait a minute, Al.

FRANKEN: A tie.

DOBBS; That doesn't mean I want to know your prediction. No, I'm kidding. Go ahead.

FRANKEN: Well, you seemed to ask a question that was leading to whether or not mine was going to help or not.

DOBBS: Your inference is exact.

FRANKEN: I believe -- I believe the popular vote will be a tie. And by that, I don't mean, not within a few thousand. I mean it'll be a tie.

DOBBS: Right down the middle.

FRANKEN: It'll be a tie, the popular vote. But I think that Kerry will win the electoral vote.

But you watch. I'm the only one to predict that the popular vote will be a tie.

DOBBS: The popular vote will be a tie. That would set the stage for another interesting 4 years for whomever won the election, don't you think?

FRANKEN: I saw your poll yesterday, which was extremely disturbing. Even though I had to answer, no. I wouldn't -- if Bush won, I couldn't get behind him. I just couldn't. I did -- I did in 2000. Once.

DOBBS: As I said last night, when we put the results up there, there are there some nights that there are questions I wish I had not asked and that certainly was one of them.

FRANKEN: It was quite shocking and my wife and I were watching. We both went, no, we couldn't get behind him. Not anymore. He's lied to us too many times. I know, and it's a terrible thing to say. You want to be able to say you get behind your president, and you know, I did. After 9/11, we were all behind this president. And all Americans were caught up in the patriotic fervor and even people I never expected -- a friend of mine went right to his T-shirt. Never would expect this, got out his America T-shirt, took him about four hours to white-out "sucks" but still the point is still the same. We were all caught up in this patriotic fervor and the world was behind us and this president blew it. That's all I was going to say. I know that you wanted to interrupt me to stop a joke from happening.

DOBBS: No, I did not want to do that under any circumstances but you have just consumed the -- just the...

FRANKEN: So much time.

DOBBS: A huge amount of air time that I have to say, thanks for being with us, Al. You were a riot as always.

FRANKEN: No, I wasn't. Because you were stepping on everything.

DOBBS: I apologize.

FRANKEN: Yes. Learn how to be a straight man.

DOBBS: I wish I would. OK, I apologize. You can give me instruction perhaps the next couple of weeks as we celebrate whomever wins this election next November 2. Thanks, Al.

FRANKEN: Next November 2? That'll be a mayoral election.

DOBBS: You've got it partner. You have a good one. Al Franken. Still ahead, I'll be joined by three of the country's top political journalists. We'll find out what they are thinking about the outcome of this election next. Please stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: Joining me now for more on these final days of the campaign from Washington. Three of the country's very best political journalists. Karen Tumulty, "TIME" magazine, Roger Simon, "U.S. News & World Report," Ron Brownstein, "Los Angeles Times." Good to have you here. Karen, this issue on the missing explosives dominating now the Kerry charge against President Bush. Is it working?

KAREN TUMULTY, "TIME" MAGAZINE: Well, it is going to work I think if this becomes a metaphor for the Bush administration's overall competence. There are 10,000 weapons sites like this in Iraq. And if this casts doubt on the administration's overall handling of it, yes, it does become a very big issue.

DOBBS: And, Roger, is the president doing enough in your opinion to deal with this issue politically?

ROGER SIMON, "U.S. NEWS & WORLD SERVICE": I think he's doing everything he can. He doesn't want to be talking about this issue. That's the effectiveness of this attack. And it's an effectiveness born out of the Clinton people who've come to Kerry, the Kerry campaign. Before Kerry would have wanted to know the exact chemical composition of the explosives, how many trucks could have taken them away, what route they would have followed. The Clinton people told them, kick the butt of the president every day on this issue and if the story turns out to be a fabrication, we will apologize on November 3.

DOBBS: And with that strategy, Ron, is perhaps Senator Kerry making a mistake here, because Iraq, the war on terror in every poll I've seen, President Bush scores higher by far than Senator Kerry. SIMON: Well, in fact, it is a little more finely greater (ph) than that, Lou. President Bush has enormous ratings on the war on terror. His own approval ratings on Iraq, the sense of optimism about the way things are going in Iraq much more critical. But you're right, even despite those doubts about President Bush, he still leads in almost all polls when people are asked who they trust to handle this going forward. And obviously, John Kerry in pressing this attack is trying to close that gap to raise overall doubts about the president's performance, because in the end, it is I think still more referendum on the incumbent than the challenger and the way for the challenger to win is to convince people the incumbent is going in the wrong direction.

DOBBS: I want to ask you first, Ron, about polls because Roger and Karen get testy with me when I bring up polls. But the "Los Angeles Times"...

TUMULTY: He can't stop himself.

DOBBS: The "Los Angeles Times" poll shows that Bush right now has Florida. And Senator Kerry has Ohio and that they're tied in Pennsylvania. What do we make of it?

RON BROWNSTEIN, "LOS ANGELES TIMES": Well, you know, my own poll or any other poll, I don't go to the bank on a single poll. Here's what's interesting. If you look at Florida, President Bush is consistently polling in the range of 48, 49, 50, over 50 in our poll. That says to me he's very strong. In Ohio in the month of October, almost every poll including our own has its own vote at 47 or below. That says to me he's in trouble there.

In Pennsylvania, it's really right on the cusp. Our poll had him at 48. Most polls have him a little bit lower. One other came out in that range. Basically if someone wins all three of those states, they're probably president -- they're almost certainly president. If they win two of the three, they're probably president, especially in President Bush's case. But right now I'd say Ohio's leaning toward Kerry, Florida toward Bush, and Pennsylvania is very close with perhaps the slight edge for Senator Kerry historically.

DOBBS: Roger, the role of the young people's vote in this election, I was in Philadelphia talking to the world affairs counselor earlier today. Young people there are very interested in this election. What will be their expected role?

SIMON: We don't know. Young people say they're very interested in this election and there was a recent Harvard poll or Harvard study saying I think 76 percent of young people said they would come out and vote. This election is really going to be a test case for the young vote or the youth vote. But they have said in the past, they're going to come out in great numbers and they have a great deal at stake and they don't vote and politicians tend to ignore people who don't come out and vote. If young people want to be taken seriously as a political voting bloc, they'll come out and vote on November 2.

And, Karen, your thoughts right now about these candidates being locked up in the Midwestern states, the swing states. Can we expect them to stay there for the duration?

TUMULTY: Yes, and it is certainly, for instance, when -- when we see John Kerry going back to Michigan again, a state that his campaign thought they had pretty much locked up a few weeks ago, you do -- you do see the calculations that are in place. But I must say I was sort of intrigued by Al Franken's prediction of a perfect tie. Because I believe -- if I recall the constitution correctly, then Ralph Nader gets to break it.

DOBBS: Ralph Nader gets to break it.

Well, I think that was more mathematically than constitutionally. Yes, I'm sorry, go ahead.

BROWNSTEIN: I just want to make one quick point, follow up on Karen, you know, one thing that's true right now in the final days, John Kerry is defending a little more turf than President Bush. There really are only three Bush states that John Kerry is still actively contesting. There are about six Gore states that Bush is seeking and that may give him a little bit of a little more edge at the end.

DOBBS: Ron, thank you, Karen, thank you, Roger, thank you. See you tomorrow.

Finally tonight, we want to add our congratulations to everyone, to the Red Sox fans that after 86 years of the curse they've got a World Series. Congratulations to the Red Sox and their devoted, long frustrated, now rewarded fans.

Thanks for being with us here tonight. Please join us tomorrow. For all of us here, good night from CNN Center in Atlanta. "ANDERSON COOPER 360" is next.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com


Aired October 28, 2004 - 18:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANNOUNCER: Tonight, a stunning development in the controversy over missing Iraqi explosives. A top Pentagon official says Russian special forces removed the explosives before the U.S. invasion. We'll have complete coverage.
Five days to go. President Bush and Senator Kerry intensify their attacks on each other and their national security policies.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. JOHN K. KERRY (D-MA), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: As president, I will fight a tougher, smarter, more effective war.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: John Kerry is the wrong man for the wrong job at the wrong time.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: Defending Democracy. The Justice Department is sending an unprecedented number of officials to polling places to defend the integrity of our voting system. But local officials in key states tonight are already turning away international observers.

And a dramatic increase in violence against Border Patrol agents by illegal aliens and drug traffickers. Mexican drug cartels have even offered a bounty for the killing of a U.S. law-enforcement officer.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JUAN AGUIRRE, ROMA, TEXAS, POLICE DEPARTMENT: It makes me mad that we're trying to do our job and -- for them to have something like that on us.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: Tonight, a special report.

This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT for Thursday, October 28. Here now for an hour of news, debate and opinion from CNN Center, Lou Dobbs.

LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening. New developments tonight in the escalating controversy over missing explosives in Iraq. A senior Pentagon official says Russian troops almost certainly removed those explosives from Iraq before the U.S.-led invasion. Deputy Undersecretary of Defense John Shaw told "The Washington Times" and "The Financial Times" that the Russians shipped those explosives to Syria.

We have two reports tonight: Senior Pentagon Correspondent Jamie McIntyre in Washington; Kitty Pilgrim in New York. We begin with Jamie McIntyre -- Jamie.

JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN SENIOR PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Well, Lou, today, senior Pentagon officials reporting a lot of distance between themselves and those comments from John Shaw, who, as you said, is a deputy undersecretary of defense.

He did tell the newspapers, including "The Washington Times," that he believes Russian troops working with Iraqi intelligence, a quote here, "almost certainly removed the high explosives material" that was missing from al Qa Qaa, south of Baghdad.

But, today, the Pentagon undercut those statements, saying that they had no intelligence that would corroborate that assessment, and, just a short time ago, earlier this afternoon, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld in a radio interview on WABC in New York said he had no information to confirm what Mr. Shaw said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: No, I have no information on that at all and cannot validate that even slightly.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MCINTYRE: Larry DiRita, the Pentagon spokesman, said that as far as he knew, there was no incredible intelligence to support that conclusion. He said it was not a view held by senior members of the Pentagon, and he pointed out that Mr. Shaw was "not speaking for the Pentagon."

Meanwhile, he did say that officials -- senior officials here, his bosses, are talking to him to find out what he was thinking when he made that comment.

And, Lou, one more thing. The Pentagon late tonight is working to release a photograph that they believe will show that there was activity at the al Qa Qaa facility well before U.S. troops got there, but they concede it's not going to be conclusive evidence that the explosives were moved from the site.

DOBBS: Jamie, let's begin with the first element of that. Has the Defense Department made any statement about whether there were or were not Russians in Iraq from the period January 2003 to March of 2003?

MCINTYRE: They have not made any statement that there were no Russians. They have not ruled that out. They also have noted that the Russians have very good special forces. But they do say they have no intelligence that would support the conclusion that they helped move these explosives out of al Qa Qaa.

DOBBS: OK. Jamie McIntyre, our senior Pentagon correspondent.

Thank you.

Russia sold more weapons to Saddam Hussein's regime than to any other country in the world. There were even reports, denied by Russia, that Russian companies sold weapons to Iraq even at the time American troops were launching the invasion.

Kitty Pilgrim reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KITTY PILGRIM, CNN BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Russia had a long military partnership with Iraq throughout the '70s and '80s, and billions of dollars of arms were supplied by the Soviet Union and later Russia.

After the first Gulf War, when the U.N. embargo was imposed on Iraq, experts say major weapons sales of tanks and planes stopped, but smaller arms and equipment were much harder to keep track of.

DIMITRI SIMES, THE NIXON CENTER: There were a lot of private Russian contractors in Iraq, and some of them, obviously, former military officers. There were many contractors in Iraq, quite a few in the oil business, many in construction.

But, also, there were instances where the Russians supplied military items, like night goggles, and, obviously, this was a contribution to Iraqi military capabilities.

PILGRIM: The Russia-Iraq arms connection had been strong. The Federation of American Scientists monitors arms sales and says, between 1973 and 1990, nearly 60 percent of Iraq's major weapons were purchased from Russia, some $24 billion worth. France was the second largest provider at 12 percent, and China third at 11 percent.

Sales of small arms, light weapons or explosives were not closely counted, but would boost that figure.

As to whether the explosives at al Qa Qaa were of Russian origin, experts say it's technically possible they were, but nearly impossible to say definitively.

IVAN OELRICH, FEDERATION OF AMERICAN SCIENTISTS: The high explosive, as far as I know, no one knows exactly where that came from, but, certainly, Russia would be one supplier of RDX and similar kinds of explosives. They could have got it from them. These things could easily be two decades old.

(END VIDEOTAPE) PILGRIM: And we know that Iraqis buried certain weaponry before the Gulf War, but many experts we talked to were perplexed why Russia would want to help move conventional explosives in Iraq -- Lou.

Kitty, thank you.

Kitty Pilgrim.

Russia today said it is absurd and ridiculous to suggest that Russian troops removed explosives from Iraq. The Russian defense ministry insisted all Russian military experts left Iraq when the United Nations imposed international sanctions during the 1991 Gulf War.

The top Russian diplomat in Iraq said there were no Russian special forces in Iraq before the war, only civilian employees working for foreign companies.

Later here in this broadcast, we'll have more on the escalating controversy over what happened to those Iraqi explosives. I'll be talking with "The Financial Times" correspondent who talked with Deputy Undersecretary John Shaw at the program and who has covered the relationship between Russia and Iraq for a number of years.

I'll also be talking with General David Grange about the Pentagon's perspective on this unfolding story.

The missing explosives were again an issue on the campaign trail today. Senator Kerry said the explosives' disappearance proves this country needs a president who can take responsibility. Senator Kerry today campaigned in Ohio and Wisconsin.

Frank Buckley reports from Madison, Wisconsin.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BRUCE SPRINGSTEEN, SINGER: Well, we've made a promise...

FRANK BUCKLEY, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Bruce Springsteen played "No Surrender" for an estimated 80,000 John Kerry supporters, as Kerry showed no sign of letting up on the missing explosives in Iraq.

KERRY: Now George Bush's shifting explanations, an effort to blame everybody except themselves, is evidence that he believes the buck stops anywhere but with the president.

BUCKLEY: It was day four of Kerry's criticism of the president on the missing explosives, coming as the senator tries to rally the faithful to vote.

Today, Kerry responding to the president who said that the senator couldn't be commander in chief because he jumps to conclusions without knowing the facts.

KERRY: They're not where they're supposed to be. You were warned to guard them. You didn't guard them. They're not secure. And guess what? According to George Bush's own word, he shouldn't be our commander in chief and I couldn't agree more.

BUCKLEY: The Kerry campaign also went after Bush surrogate Rudy Giuliani after he said this to NBC's Matt Lauer.

RUDY GIULIANI (R), FORMER MAYOR OF NEW YORK CITY: No matter how you try to blame it on president, the actual responsibility for it really would be for the troops that were there. Did they search carefully enough? Didn't they search carefully enough?

BUCKLEY: The Kerry campaign saying that was an example of a "excuse: presidency. The Bush campaign claimed Kerry was distorting Giuliani's comments.

(on camera): Kerry advisers say the criticism on the missing explosives will continue through the final days of the campaign, with Kerry trying to broaden the argument to include what one senior strategist described as all of the wrong choices the president has made.

Frank Buckley, CNN, Madison, Wisconsin.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

DOBBS: President Bush today declared Senator Kerry as "the wrong man for the wrong job at the wrong time." President Bush is today campaigning in Michigan, Ohio and Pennsylvania.

Dana Bash reports from Westlake, Ohio.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DANA BASH, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): A closing argument, a speech about leadership.

BUSH: The senator's willingness to trade principle for political convenience makes it clear that John Kerry is the wrong man for the wrong job at the wrong time.

BASH: The president's rhetoric perhaps the harshest to date, asking what the senator's "lack of conviction" would mean.

BUSH: If you make things uncomfortable, if you stir up trouble, John Kerry will back off, and that's a very dangerous signal to send during this time.

BASH: Mr. Bush is also trying to defend against Kerry's relentless attacks he is responsible for missing explosives in Iraq. Kerry aides hope it's going to sway undecideds skeptical about the war.

BUSH: Senator Kerry will say anything to get elected.

BASH: Bush aides say the senator's jumping to conclusions on unsubstantiated information. And at a midday stop in Ohio, they called in Tommy Franks, the general who commanded the Iraq war, to defend the president.

GEN. TOMMY FRANKS (RET.), FORMER CENTCOM COMMANDER: We do not yet have all of the facts about 380 tons of munitions in Iraq, and he is a president who will look at you and say we don't yet have the facts, but we will get the facts. George W. Bush.

BASH: The president's retaliations aimed at what his campaign calls the senator's biggest weak spot. When asked if John Kerry changes issues for political reasons, 65 percent said yes, only 36 percent said the same of the president.

If leadership's your theme, you can't just talk down your opponents without talking up your own. For this president, that means evoking 9/11, here in unusually lofty terms.

BUSH: I've learned to expect the unexpected because history can deliver sudden horror from a soft autumn sky.

BASH: Team Bush is following the classic final day's playbook, create the aura of a winner...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You're still the one / I want to talk to in bed / Still the one...

BASH: ... a new theme song, packed-in raucous crowds, even confetti.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We're still having fun / And you're still the one...

BASH (on camera): But as much as the Bush campaign wants to appear confident, the president's razor sharp rhetoric may be an indication there is concern that Senator Kerry's attacks on his leadership may be sticking.

Dana Bash, CNN, Westlake, Ohio.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

DOBBS: Still ahead here, foreign election observers in this country are being turned away from polling places in key swing states. We'll have that report for you next.

And will your vote count this year? The voting system in Ohio, one of the most critical swing states in this election, near the breaking point. We'll have that special report.

And the Justice Department is now sending an unprecedented number of officials to polling places all around the country to monitor this presidential election.

All of that and a great deal more still ahead right here.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) DOBBS: Thousands of voter registrations in Ohio have already been challenged in what could be one of the closest elections in the country. The latest polls show President Bush and Senator Kerry in a statistical dead heat in the race for Ohio's 20 electoral votes.

Joe Johns reports from Columbus, Ohio, in our special report Democracy at Risk.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JOE JOHNS, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): With tens of thousands of newly registered voters challenged by Ohio Republicans before the election, the system is already showing signs of confusion.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. Chairman, these ballots...

JOHNS: In some smaller counties, hearings to verify the residency of voters began Thursday, but, in six other counties, including two of the largest which encompass Cleveland and Columbus, challenged voters showed up for hearings only to find they'd been halted the day before by a federal judge.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Your right to vote has been challenged by a qualified elector.

JOHNS; The Ohio Republican Party says it filed its challengers after sending letters to newly registered voters returned as undeliverable.

MARK WEAVER, OHIO GOP ELECTION ATTORNEY: Here in Ohio, we regularly send out mailers to new registrants, saying welcome to being a voter and please vote for our candidates. This time, when we sent out those new mailers, we had thousands, tray loads coming back saying no such person lives here.

JOHNS: But Democrats argue undeliverable mail doesn't necessarily mean a person's registration should be thrown out, that there may be innocent reasons.

MYRON MARLIN, DEMOCRATIC PARTY SPOKESMAN: It's a guess that somebody might be serving in the military. Many of these cases have people -- have addresses here in Ohio that are just simply addresses of record, but not places where they receive mail.

It suggests that people might not have a mailbox, but instead a post office box. It suggests that people may have been living in a dorm room and didn't have their right dorm room number down, so lots of students have been attacked. It suggests that maybe somebody moved from one part of the county to the next.

CHRISTOPHER SMITH, OHIO RESIDENT: Then also on the ladder...

JOHNS: Case in point: Christopher Smith of Bexley. He changed addresses here in September, and somebody misspelled his new street name in the election's computer. His registration was challenged. SMITH: I feel it is my right to rote. I want to vote, and they're not going to rob me of it just because I moved.

JOHNS: This leaves local election officials scrambling and hoping to be prepared for Tuesday.

MATTHEW DAMSCHRODER, FRANKLIN COUNTY ELECTION BOARD: Coming out of the year 2000, I mean, there's a lot of confusion anyway, and I think this just goes to further add to that confusion.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

JOHNS: And the legal wrangling continues over disputed voter registrations. There is even a new lawsuit filed by an Ohio civil- rights activist alleging challenges on Election Day could intimidate minority voters -- Lou.

DOBBS: Joe, thank you.

Ohio -- I talked with representatives -- actually the field generals there in Ohio last night, Republican and Democrat. Is there any sign that this is going to be an orderly election at all in Ohio?

JOHNS: Well, they certainly hope so, and there is some belief that they can pull it off. However, the proof is in the courts right now, and there are a number of lawsuits making their way through, some in Cincinnati.

It's clear there will be a lot more legal wrangling and people are already predicting there will be long lines and holdups as the challenges go forward -- Lou.

DOBBS: And, as you've just reported, a federal judge in Ohio ruling against those hearings on those challenges, after issuing a temporary restraining order earlier in the day. So the litigation is well underway.

Joe Johns.

Thanks very much.

A group of foreigners hoping to observe the presidential election is complaining tonight that they've been shut out of some polling places. The group says it is "shocked" that election officials in both Florida and Ohio have refused to allow them to monitor the voting.

The observers, which hail from Europe, Mexico and elsewhere, were invited by the nongovernmental group Global Exchange. One Miami-Dade election official told us that the Florida county has ample independent observers place, and he will not be able to accommodate uninvited foreign observers.

Separately tonight, the Justice Departments says it will send more than a thousand of its election observers to polling places around the country come Tuesday. That is more than three times the number of federal observers who monitored the presidential election four years ago.

Kelli Arena reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KELLI ARENA, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It's the biggest effort ever of its kind. Nearly 1,100 federal election monitors and observers will descend on counties in 25 states, including the key battleground states of Ohio, Pennsylvania and Florida. They'll be watching for civil rights or criminal abuses.

JOHN TANNER, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE CIVIL RIGHTS DIVISION: Our enforcement first is focused on solving problems as promptly as possible on Election Day. That is the main reason we are there, so the voters can cast their ballots freely without fear or intimidation.

ARENA: Justice Department officials have said in general that they're headed to jurisdictions where there have been problems before or where there are current allegations of wrongdoing. But officials did not specifically cite reasons for choosing the counties they did, frustrating voting rights groups.

JULIE FERNANDES, LEADERSHIP CONFERENCE ON CIVIL RIGHTS: For example, in Arizona, our specific concern is that Latino voters are going to be challenged based on their citizenship. So we want to know are poll monitors going to be deployed in areas that are heavily Latino to ensure that that community is not being improperly targeted. This release, though telling us they'll be in Arizona, does not give us that assurance.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The Voting Bill promises a profound effect.

ARENA: Justice officials say voting rights issues have evolved significantly since the Voting Rights Act was passed nearly 40 years ago. For example, discrimination against African-Americans has fallen, but has increased against non-English speakers, and, for the first time, officials will make sure disabled voters are granted equal access.

What's more, unlike past elections, there will not be any prosecutors at the polls to avoid any claims of possible intimidation.

TANNER: No more political appointees. No prosecutors helping out as in the past. Not even Civil Rights Division prosecutors. Only career Civil Rights Division personnel.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ARENA: Justice officials say their main goal is to maintain as low-key a presence as possible. They say if they're doing their job right, you won't know they are there -- Lou.

DOBBS: And to what degree is the Justice Department with these monitors expressing concern about already the documented registration of known terrorists on voter roles, the registration of illegal aliens in a number of states? Are they also going to be presiding over those issues that are confronting the integrity of the electoral system?

ARENA: Justice is not commenting specifically on any investigations that it's opened, whether they be civil rights or criminal investigations, Lou, but, obviously, if they rise to the level of a federal crime, that would be something that would fall under their jurisdiction.

DOBBS: Thank you very much, Kelli.

When we continue here, outrage tonight over increasing violence along our border with Mexico. U.S. Border Patrol agents are literally under attack. We'll have that special report.

And then, new information tonight in the investigation of missing explosives in Iraq.

All of that and a great deal more still ahead here tonight.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: This just in to CNN. CNN has just obtained new information about what may have happened at the Iraqi storage facility where 380 tons of powerful explosives disappeared.

We're going now to our senior correspondent at the Pentagon, Jamie McIntyre -- Jamie.

MCINTYRE: Well, Lou, as we reported earlier this hour, the Pentagon is releasing a picture that it says shows activity at the al Qa Qaa site before the war started.

Now, again, the Pentagon officials are the first to tell you this picture doesn't prove anything, but what it does show is that on March 17, three days before the war started, there was activity at these bunkers.

You can see in the yellow squares that are shown in this picture one of the bunkers where there's a truck and a heavy equipment transporter parked in front of the bunker. That's the one that we're zooming in now.

Just below there is another bunker which has been identified as one of those that was supposed to contain the HMX, the high explosives that have been missing. Now, again, this does not show that high explosive being taken away from the site.

But many critics have suggested that the Pentagon's story doesn't hold water because they have would seen things moving if they moved before the war, and what the Pentagon is saying is that this does show things moving, but, again, they can't say exactly what's being moved -- Lou.

DOBBS: No answers still on any -- on any angle of this story, but we're resolving at least what should be some of the questions more definitively.

Jamie McIntyre, thank you. Keep us up to date, of course, as you always do.

Jamie McIntyre, our senior Pentagon correspondent.

Still ahead tonight, more on the controversy over those missing explosives. Tonight, the role the Russians may have played. I'll be joined by one of "The Financial Times" correspondents who broke that story next. I'll also be joined by General David Grange.

And a nation sharply divided. Five days to go. I'll be joined by "Vanity Fair"'s editor in chief Graydon Carter, an outspoken critic of President Bush; conservative columnist John Leo, who supports President Bush; and -- Did I mention Al Franken? -- Al, too.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ANNOUNCER: We continue now with more news, debate and opinion. From CNN Center, Lou Dobbs.

DOBBS: In Broken Borders tonight, deadly violence against U.S. Border Patrol agents is on the rise. Mexican drug cartels are offering bounties for the lives of U.S. law-enforcement agents working along the Mexican border.

Casey Wian reports from Los Angeles.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The funeral of two Texas Border Patrol agencies who drowned in the Rio Grande, a grim reminder of the escalating danger on the Mexican border.

In nearby Roma, Texas, reports of Mexican drug cartels offering a bounty of up to $50,000 for the killing of any border region law- enforcement officer.

AGUIRRE: It makes me mad that we're trying to did our job, and -- for them to have something like that on us.

WIAN: On the Mexican side, Mexico's military has been deployed to combat a recent wave of drug and gang violence. Mexican and Central American gangs have spread their drug and immigrant smuggling operations to the United States.

HEATHER MACDONALD, MANHATTAN INSTITUTE: There's no reason why a committed al Qaeda terrorist can't present themselves to these same groups, be it Mara Salvatrucha or the 18th Street gang in Southern California and say here's the cash, bring me a cross.

WIAN: Near Tucson, 118 Border Patrol agents were assaulted last fiscal year.

So far this month, 13 more attacks about double last year's rate. They ranged from a dozen shots fired from Mexico at agents patrolling this notorious crossing point known as Hamburger Hill to the attempted ramming of a Border Patrol helicopter by an illegal alien in a pickup truck.

Some blame the strategy of deploying agents in highly visible fixed positions along the border and restrictions on pursuits of suspected alien smugglers.

T.J. BONNER, NATIONAL BORDER PATROL COUNCIL: I would like to say that this increase in violence is tied to an increase in our effectiveness, but it's not. It's as easy today, if not easier to cross the border than at any other mine our nation's history.

WIAN: In Santa Ana, California Sunday a botched smuggling deal led to a SWAT team stand-off and an apartment complex evacuation. Police say an admitted smuggler went to collect payment for his illegal aliens. Instead he was robbed, carjacked and kidnapped. Three of the alleged robbers are in custody, three others escaped.

(on camera): The smuggler who police say is a legal U.S. resident was not arrested. Federal immigration authorities say they're watching the case closely but say they haven't arrested the smuggler because he's needed as I witness in the local police investigation.

Casey Wian, CNN, Los Angeles.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

DOBBS: An Arizona judge today dismissed a challenge against Proposition 200, saying that it came simply too late. That immigration initiative will remain on the Arizona ballot. There's no word yet on whether the groups supporting, it will appeal. Proposition 200 will require proof of citizenship to vote and to receive state benefits. Proponents say that initiative will curve voter and benefit fraud by illegal aliens, by points say there was discrepancies between the petitions used to put the measure on the ballot and the proposition itself.

Support for the initiative is now fairly strong. The latest "Arizona Republic" Poll says 55 percent of Arizona citizens are in favor of Proposition 200.

Returning now to the developing story, 380 tons of missing Iraqi explosives a short time ago, the Pentagon released a photograph showing trucks at Iraqi facility just days before the beginning of the war.

Jamie McIntyre reporting from the Pentagon on that development. Now, a top Pentagon official tonight is accusing Russia of removing explosives from the al Qa Qaa storage facility in Iraq before the invasion. Deputy undersecretary of defense, John Shaw, made the accusation in an interview with the "Financial Times, "

Joining me the "Financial Times" journalist who spoke to Undersecretary Shaw and broke the story, Demetri Sevastopulo.

Good to have you with us.

DEMETRI SEVASTOPULO, "FINANCIAL TIMES": Thank you, Lou.

DOBBS: Demetri, let's begin. Jamie McIntyre, our Pentagon correspondent, reporting tonight that the Pentagon is trying to knock down the undersecretary's comments.

Why -- what would be the reason for that?

SEVASTOPULO: Well, the Deputy Undersecretary Shaw has a very strained relationship with Larry Di Rita and some of the people in Rumsfeld's office. He says he was working with Department of Defense inspector general on an investigation and in the course of his investigation, he came across intelligence suggesting that the Russians had brought some of the Iraqi munitions, including the explosives, out of Iraq.

DOBBS: Demetri, we have reported here extensively on the relationship between Russia and Saddam Hussein's Iraq, that dates back, as Kitty Pilgrim documented, decades. What is your best understanding and your reporting on that relationship between Russia and Saddam Hussein's Iraq?

SEVASTOPULO: Well, it's clear from the recent report by Charles Duelfer and the Iraq survey group that the Russians or at least some semi-state Russian companies were involved in smuggling goods, includes into weapons, into Iraq in the 1990s breaking sanctions. So, we know they have a history bringing things out. But the news from Mr. Shaw is that they've now been taking things out of Iraq rather than sending them in.

DOBBS: And taking them out specifically in this case, according to Undersecretary Shaw, to Syria. The fact is, Russia has denied categorically in rather strong terms that they were involved, that they had special forces troops, their Spetznaz -- special forces troops in Iraq at that time.

What are -- what are your thoughts?

SEVASTOPULO: Well, we know that the Bush administration has already had some concerns about Iraq -- excuse me, but Russian activities in Iraq before the war. During the war itself, President Bush called President Putin expressing concern, that semi-state Russian companies were selling anti-tank missiles to some of the Iraqi military. And the Russians denied this of course and say they're investigating but nothing has come out of that so far.

DOBBS: And the idea, there were reports at the outset of the invasion of Iraq of munitions, equipment being shipped to Iraq and we have heard very precious little about any of those statements from this administration in the year and a half since. Do you have any -- any way in which to assess those reports at this stage?

SEVASTOPULO: I don't think at this point we have any new information on that, and the administration hasn't been forthcoming but the key question here is the munitions have gone missing. You now have a Pentagon official on the record saying he thinks this is what happened. And the Pentagon hasn't been as clear as they could be in saying they don't believe that's the case.

DOBBS: OK. In your judgment then, Demetri, you don't be believe the Pentagon has been strong enough in knocking down Undersecretary Shaw's comments?

SEVASTOPULO: Well, on these kind of stories, it's rare that you have a senior public official coming out on the record and putting their name to it. So I think -- I'm surprised that the Pentagon hasn't actually come out more strongly, either behind him or against him and come to some kind of a decision on this.

DOBBS: Demetri, thank you very much. We appreciate your being here and your reporting from the "Financial Times."

SEVASTOPULO: Thank you.

DOBBS: Joining me now from Chicago is General David Grange.

General, good to have you with us.

This is a remarkable situation that the Pentagon is in. Jamie McIntyre reporting, as you've just witnessed, activity around the al Qa Qaa facility. And showing activity there just days before the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq.

What do you make of both Undersecretary Shaw's statements about the Russia, the movement of HMX and RDX explosives in whatever quantities, unclear yet what quantities, to Syria by Russia?

BRIG. GEN. DAVID GRANGE (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Well, the only thing I can make of it, Lou, is why would you -- why would you -- why would Russia want to take the stuff out unless it -- it is evidence that they were supplying the Iraqis early on and breaking sanctions?

What would they do with it?

So, it's hard for me to believe that the Russians want to extract it except to hide evidence. Russian, the French, the Chinese, many other countries were involved in Iraq up to the wartime to some degree providing some type of support through business relations. And so that doesn't surprise me there's a lot of movement and stuff.

DOBBS: Purpose of these explosives, what possible reason could there have been for Saddam Hussein to have had so much of the HMX and RDX stored and why should they have been permitted in Saddam Hussein's Iraq?

GRANGE: Well, a lot of that type of explosive can be used for multiple weaponry. Whether it be something with WMD, tied to a WMD capability. It could be just for convention efficient use. It could be used for explosives to -- for terrorists. It's a multiple use of this type of stuff. So it's valuable to him.

DOBBS: To what extent and how recently, general, do you know that there was a relationship between Russia and Iraq in both the trade in arms and a training relationship between Russia and Iraq?

GRANGE: Well, historically, it goes back to the Soviets with the Iraqi military. I mean, the Iraqi Army was trained and equipped with Soviet doctrine with Soviet equipment and weaponry. Actually that was good for us, because if you notice all of the tanks burning in a battle -- battlefield, they were Russian -- that was mostly Russian equipment that was destroyed by coalition forces, inferior to U.S. weapons and that type of equipment. But they've had ongoing relationship for a long time and it's something you don't end overnight. And I believe up to right before the ground war started.

DOBBS: Up until the ground war started?

GRANGE: I believe that, yes.

DOBBS: All right. Then on March 19, 2003. General David Grange, as always, we thank you for your insight.

GRANGE: My pleasure.

DOBBS: Still ahead here tonight a nation divided. A contest that's too close to call, this campaign has highlighted considerable discord in this country. We'll be talking with "Vanity Fair's" editor in chief, Graydon Carter and syndicated columnist John Leo, right here next.

And then liberal talk show radio host Al Franken has made no secret who he supports. He's my guest. That and a great deal more still ahead. Please stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: I'm joined now by two prominent journalists, one of whom is a vocal supporter of President Bush. The other, one of his biggest critics. Graydon Carter, that critic. The editor-in-chief of "Vanity Fair" magazine. Author of a scathing book on the Bush administration entitled "What We've Lost."

John Leo, a columnist for "U.S. News and World Report" who supports President Bush. His columns, by the way, syndicated in 120 papers.

Both gentleman join us tonight from New York City. Good to have you here.

John, let me begin with you. Has the president been seriously injured by these attacks by Senator Kerry over the missing HMX and RDX explosives?

JOHN LEO, "U.S. NEWS AND WORLD REPORT": So far, he has. We don't if the story's true or not. "The New York Times" said flatly that White House and Pentagon officials acknowledged that the weapons were gone before the American-led invasion, but that appears not to be so. The White House does not acknowledge that at all. So, the story's been oversold and was intentionally delayed. CBS intended to run it 36 hours before the polls opened, which is by my standards an unethical bit of journalism.

DOBBS: Do you agree with that Graydon?

GRAYDON CARTER, "VANITY FAIR": I would stand to agree with John. There is no real evidence yet about when these explosives disappeared or didn't disappear. But I do think it is proven that they disappeared after the Americans went in it's very much like the crazy Eddie story -- stores during the New York black out. That there probably was a lot of looting. And if we did go in for weapons of mass destruction, then we should have protected the ones that were there, if they were there.

DOBBS: Let me ask you, Graydon. Right now, we're getting a lot of -- the lawsuits have begun. Charges of intimidation, charges of fraud have already begun five days before the election. What is your thought about how this is going to end on November 2 and whether it will end on November 2?

CARTER: I think to your point, I don't think tell end on November 2. I think that just the heated polarization of this campaign is that both groups are having watchers at the polls. And you can clearly see there is going to be scuffles, or serious violence at the polls. And I think you are calling in the National Guard under normal circumstances, but they're all in Iraq. And I think it will -- it's not going to end the night of November 2.

DOBBS: John, your thoughts?

LEO: Well, I'm disturbed that the Democrats have apparently 10,000 lawyers ready to act on November 2. I mean, this is no lawyer left behind act. It would have been nice if we had a chance to pick the president ourselves.

DOBBS: To that end, just exactly in your best judgment, how many attorneys do you think the Republican Party has, if the Democrats have 10,000? You don't think there's going to be an attorney gap here do you, John?

LEO: I have no idea. The Republicans don't brag about having 10,000.

DOBBS: Is there any reason for Republicans to brag, Graydon?

CARTER: Well first of all, the Republicans have run a very good campaign. If I was -- if I was taking it even further, I would offer a free flu shot for every person who voted for my party and I think then you got a great turnout.

DOBBS: Well that turn out is going to be critical. And that brings me to the opportunity to ask you both, who's going to, in your best judgment, win, and what number of electoral votes? I'll begin with you, John?

LEO: Oh, I haven't got it measured by electoral votes. I think Bush will edge it out at last minute.

DOBBS: Graydon?

CARTER: I think it'll be tight. I think the American people, Lou because I think whoever wins, you're going to have half the country who has absolutely no faith in their leader. And I think going forward, that is a very serious divide that a husbands and wives, or neighbors or brothers and sisters are going to have great difficulty talking about what's going on in the country with each other, because they are as polarized as could be.

DOBBS: Last night on this broadcast, we ran a poll, and asked if after the election, our viewers whether they'd be able to get behind either Senator Kerry or President Bush no matter who won the election. And about 66 percent of them said no. Sort of a disturbing development, but sort of a sign of the times as well.

Gentlemen, thanks for being here. Graydon Carter, John Leo, good to talk to you both. And it's good to see that there is great civility between the two of you, as I would expect nothing less.

Coming up, author and comedian Al Franken, speaking of civility, says in his view, President Bush may be the worst president this country's has ever had. Al and I will talk civilly next.

And 5 days and counting to the election. I'll be joined by 3 of the country's very best political journalists to tell us where we are and where we're headed come November 2. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: My next guest is highly critical of the Bush administration, saying the president is possibly the worst ever. And he announced his endorsement of Senator Kerry last week.

Now, Al Franken is the radio host for Air America, author of "Lies and the Lying Liars Who Tell Them." And he joins me tonight from New York City.

AL FRANKEN, COMEDIAN: Thank you, Lou.

DOBBS: You don't like President Bush. You do like Senator Kerry. Was it just sort of dramatic suspense to wait till last week to endorse Senator Kerry?

FRANKEN: Yes. We let our audience know, my radio show on Air America on Monday that we were going to endorse on Friday.

DOBBS: Was that Air America, Al?

FRANKEN: Air America Radio.

DOBBS: Air America Radio, Al Franken.

FRANKEN: Yes.

DOBBS: Now, with that endorsement, do you expect that will push Senator Kerry over the top here 5 days from the election? FRANKEN: I think that every little bit helps. That it should -- I actually think -- I know that you were asking Graydon Carter and John Leo their predictions, I actually think the race is going to be...

DOBBS: Wait a minute, Al.

FRANKEN: A tie.

DOBBS; That doesn't mean I want to know your prediction. No, I'm kidding. Go ahead.

FRANKEN: Well, you seemed to ask a question that was leading to whether or not mine was going to help or not.

DOBBS: Your inference is exact.

FRANKEN: I believe -- I believe the popular vote will be a tie. And by that, I don't mean, not within a few thousand. I mean it'll be a tie.

DOBBS: Right down the middle.

FRANKEN: It'll be a tie, the popular vote. But I think that Kerry will win the electoral vote.

But you watch. I'm the only one to predict that the popular vote will be a tie.

DOBBS: The popular vote will be a tie. That would set the stage for another interesting 4 years for whomever won the election, don't you think?

FRANKEN: I saw your poll yesterday, which was extremely disturbing. Even though I had to answer, no. I wouldn't -- if Bush won, I couldn't get behind him. I just couldn't. I did -- I did in 2000. Once.

DOBBS: As I said last night, when we put the results up there, there are there some nights that there are questions I wish I had not asked and that certainly was one of them.

FRANKEN: It was quite shocking and my wife and I were watching. We both went, no, we couldn't get behind him. Not anymore. He's lied to us too many times. I know, and it's a terrible thing to say. You want to be able to say you get behind your president, and you know, I did. After 9/11, we were all behind this president. And all Americans were caught up in the patriotic fervor and even people I never expected -- a friend of mine went right to his T-shirt. Never would expect this, got out his America T-shirt, took him about four hours to white-out "sucks" but still the point is still the same. We were all caught up in this patriotic fervor and the world was behind us and this president blew it. That's all I was going to say. I know that you wanted to interrupt me to stop a joke from happening.

DOBBS: No, I did not want to do that under any circumstances but you have just consumed the -- just the...

FRANKEN: So much time.

DOBBS: A huge amount of air time that I have to say, thanks for being with us, Al. You were a riot as always.

FRANKEN: No, I wasn't. Because you were stepping on everything.

DOBBS: I apologize.

FRANKEN: Yes. Learn how to be a straight man.

DOBBS: I wish I would. OK, I apologize. You can give me instruction perhaps the next couple of weeks as we celebrate whomever wins this election next November 2. Thanks, Al.

FRANKEN: Next November 2? That'll be a mayoral election.

DOBBS: You've got it partner. You have a good one. Al Franken. Still ahead, I'll be joined by three of the country's top political journalists. We'll find out what they are thinking about the outcome of this election next. Please stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: Joining me now for more on these final days of the campaign from Washington. Three of the country's very best political journalists. Karen Tumulty, "TIME" magazine, Roger Simon, "U.S. News & World Report," Ron Brownstein, "Los Angeles Times." Good to have you here. Karen, this issue on the missing explosives dominating now the Kerry charge against President Bush. Is it working?

KAREN TUMULTY, "TIME" MAGAZINE: Well, it is going to work I think if this becomes a metaphor for the Bush administration's overall competence. There are 10,000 weapons sites like this in Iraq. And if this casts doubt on the administration's overall handling of it, yes, it does become a very big issue.

DOBBS: And, Roger, is the president doing enough in your opinion to deal with this issue politically?

ROGER SIMON, "U.S. NEWS & WORLD SERVICE": I think he's doing everything he can. He doesn't want to be talking about this issue. That's the effectiveness of this attack. And it's an effectiveness born out of the Clinton people who've come to Kerry, the Kerry campaign. Before Kerry would have wanted to know the exact chemical composition of the explosives, how many trucks could have taken them away, what route they would have followed. The Clinton people told them, kick the butt of the president every day on this issue and if the story turns out to be a fabrication, we will apologize on November 3.

DOBBS: And with that strategy, Ron, is perhaps Senator Kerry making a mistake here, because Iraq, the war on terror in every poll I've seen, President Bush scores higher by far than Senator Kerry. SIMON: Well, in fact, it is a little more finely greater (ph) than that, Lou. President Bush has enormous ratings on the war on terror. His own approval ratings on Iraq, the sense of optimism about the way things are going in Iraq much more critical. But you're right, even despite those doubts about President Bush, he still leads in almost all polls when people are asked who they trust to handle this going forward. And obviously, John Kerry in pressing this attack is trying to close that gap to raise overall doubts about the president's performance, because in the end, it is I think still more referendum on the incumbent than the challenger and the way for the challenger to win is to convince people the incumbent is going in the wrong direction.

DOBBS: I want to ask you first, Ron, about polls because Roger and Karen get testy with me when I bring up polls. But the "Los Angeles Times"...

TUMULTY: He can't stop himself.

DOBBS: The "Los Angeles Times" poll shows that Bush right now has Florida. And Senator Kerry has Ohio and that they're tied in Pennsylvania. What do we make of it?

RON BROWNSTEIN, "LOS ANGELES TIMES": Well, you know, my own poll or any other poll, I don't go to the bank on a single poll. Here's what's interesting. If you look at Florida, President Bush is consistently polling in the range of 48, 49, 50, over 50 in our poll. That says to me he's very strong. In Ohio in the month of October, almost every poll including our own has its own vote at 47 or below. That says to me he's in trouble there.

In Pennsylvania, it's really right on the cusp. Our poll had him at 48. Most polls have him a little bit lower. One other came out in that range. Basically if someone wins all three of those states, they're probably president -- they're almost certainly president. If they win two of the three, they're probably president, especially in President Bush's case. But right now I'd say Ohio's leaning toward Kerry, Florida toward Bush, and Pennsylvania is very close with perhaps the slight edge for Senator Kerry historically.

DOBBS: Roger, the role of the young people's vote in this election, I was in Philadelphia talking to the world affairs counselor earlier today. Young people there are very interested in this election. What will be their expected role?

SIMON: We don't know. Young people say they're very interested in this election and there was a recent Harvard poll or Harvard study saying I think 76 percent of young people said they would come out and vote. This election is really going to be a test case for the young vote or the youth vote. But they have said in the past, they're going to come out in great numbers and they have a great deal at stake and they don't vote and politicians tend to ignore people who don't come out and vote. If young people want to be taken seriously as a political voting bloc, they'll come out and vote on November 2.

And, Karen, your thoughts right now about these candidates being locked up in the Midwestern states, the swing states. Can we expect them to stay there for the duration?

TUMULTY: Yes, and it is certainly, for instance, when -- when we see John Kerry going back to Michigan again, a state that his campaign thought they had pretty much locked up a few weeks ago, you do -- you do see the calculations that are in place. But I must say I was sort of intrigued by Al Franken's prediction of a perfect tie. Because I believe -- if I recall the constitution correctly, then Ralph Nader gets to break it.

DOBBS: Ralph Nader gets to break it.

Well, I think that was more mathematically than constitutionally. Yes, I'm sorry, go ahead.

BROWNSTEIN: I just want to make one quick point, follow up on Karen, you know, one thing that's true right now in the final days, John Kerry is defending a little more turf than President Bush. There really are only three Bush states that John Kerry is still actively contesting. There are about six Gore states that Bush is seeking and that may give him a little bit of a little more edge at the end.

DOBBS: Ron, thank you, Karen, thank you, Roger, thank you. See you tomorrow.

Finally tonight, we want to add our congratulations to everyone, to the Red Sox fans that after 86 years of the curse they've got a World Series. Congratulations to the Red Sox and their devoted, long frustrated, now rewarded fans.

Thanks for being with us here tonight. Please join us tomorrow. For all of us here, good night from CNN Center in Atlanta. "ANDERSON COOPER 360" is next.

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