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Lou Dobbs Tonight

U.S. Troops Move Into Falluja; Ashcroft, Evans Resign

Aired November 09, 2004 - 18:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LOU DOBBS, HOST (voice-over): Tonight, our troops are blasting the way into the center of Falluja. Dozens of anti-Iraqi forces have been killed in the assault in the insurgent stronghold.

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Coalition forces are now moving into Falluja to bring to justice those who are willing to kill the innocent.

DOBBS: And tonight, the hypocrisy of France. President Chirac is a strong and frequent critic of our policy in Iraq, but President Chirac doesn't hesitate to use military force in West Africa without U.N. approval.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They are looking an awful lot like a traditional colonial power.

DOBBS: Senator Arlen Specter faces a tough battle with conservatives to win the chairman for the Judiciary Committee. I talked with Senator Specter about his chances of winning that fight and his views on likely nominees to the U.S. Supreme Court.

Voters in Arizona strongly support Proposition 200 to stop illegal aliens from receiving state benefits. Is the mayor of the city of Phoenix trying to blunt the will of the people? Phoenix Mayor Phil Gordon is my guest.

ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT for Tuesday, November 9. Here now for an hour of news, debate, and opinion is Lou Dobbs.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

DOBBS: Good evening.

We begin tonight with breaking news from the White House. Attorney General John Ashcroft and Commerce Secretary Don Evans have both resigned. They are the first cabinet members to resign since President Bush won re-election.

Our senior White House correspondent, John King, has the report -- John.

JOHN KING, CNN CORRESPONDENT: And, Lou, both high-profile members of the Bush cabinet, one, in Don Evans, a close personal friend of the president as well as being the commerce secretary, the other John Ashcroft, the man who has led the Justice Department since the September 11 attacks, before then as well.

But of course, some controversy since 9/11, enforcing the Patriot Act. Other actions taken against terrorists and potential terrorists here in the United States, and abroad.

Both -- the White House releasing resignation letters from both tonight and Scott McClellan, the White House press secretary, saying the president will move as quickly and expeditiously as possible to pick new nominees to help the departments of justice and commerce.

This, if I can show you, is the hand-written note from the attorney general. Mr. Ashcroft resigning. It's dated on election day. He said he wrote it out handwritten himself to protect its confidentiality. So that he could work with the president on when to make this news public. Because he said he wanted to have a smooth transition.

The attorney general saying he believes the Justice Department would benefit from new leadership and that he believes it is best for him to turn his efforts and energy to other endeavors.

Secretary Evans dating his letter today, November 9, saying that he has decided begrudgingly that it is time to return home to Texas.

Again, the White House releasing these two letters tonight. Senior officials say this there could be more cabinet members leaving in the days ahead, although they also note the president and his chief of staff have asked that anyone who plans on leaving before the start of the second term, let the president know this week.

Again, the White House saying it would move as quickly as possible to replace these two. Already, senior administration officials are suggesting one likely candidate to be contacted, to be explored, any way, as a potential replacement for Ashcroft, will be Larry Thompson, who was his deputy at the Justice Department for much of the first term.

And again, Lou, this news coming to us tonight. The White House chief of staff, Andy Card, made it known over the weekend that he would stay for a second term. Officials say it is possible one or two other cabinet members could be leaving. The president tonight look for two very high-profile replacements as he prepares for a second term -- Lou.

DOBBS: A number of questions. John, because of the timing of these resignations, and I know that it may be difficult because this has all happened within the last half hour.

But first, the president at Camp David to review his cabinet and those he would want to stay on, John Ashcroft resigning on election day. On election day, we didn't even know if he would be re-elected.

Is it correct to say that was the situation for Attorney General Ashcroft?

KING: Yes, Attorney General Ashcroft, White House officials said, had made the decision to leave regardless of the election results.

Obviously, he would stay through the end of the term. If the president had lost the election, he would stay through the end of the term. But the attorney general -- the president knew when he had has news conference saying he was going to ponder his second term cabinet when he went up to Camp David. He already, of course, had this letter in his possession. He did not disclose that publicly.

Mr. Bush, of course, reserving the right to think and reflect on all this before making the news public.

DOBBS: And help us, John, understand the timing of this, coming one week to the day from election day, at about the 5:45 when this news broke this afternoon. Peculiar timing, is it not?

KING: Well, the White House said it would make this news public. If anyone leaving, as soon as it deemed it appropriate to make it public.

We do know that the chief of staff, Andy Card, has sent word to the president himself when he met with his cabinet last week. Word had been sent that if anyone was planning to resign, that they wanted that word delivered to the White House by Thursday of this week. That is tomorrow of course.

Again, we're told there could be one or two more. But these are two high-profile members of the cabinet. The White House simply deciding once the president had accepted these resignations, to make it public. That is what the White House is telling us tonight, and again, saying the president will move expeditiously.

The attorney general post, obviously of high importance. The president will have at least now two nominations to make in the days and weeks ahead.

DOBBS: John King, our senior White House correspondent, thank you John.

For more on the resignation of Attorney General John Ashcroft, we go to justice correspondent Kelli Arena in Washington -- Kelli.

KELLI ARENA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Lou, obviously this is not a big surprise. We reported here on -- just on your program last week that sources close to the attorney general fully expected him to submit his resignation.

As John said, his letter was handwritten for confidentiality reasons, and I'll read a little bit of it to you. I think -- he says, "The objective of securing the safety of Americans from crime and terror has been achieved."

He goes on to say that he feels that his energies could be used in other challenging horizons. No word yet from the Justice Department on exactly what John Ashcroft plans to do with his future.

Obviously, his health, according to some of his close aides, was a factor here. He did have pancreatitis earlier in year, and he has served as something of a lightning rod for this administration, as you know, Lou. His aides said that he felt somewhat vindicated by the election results, was energized.

But all along, sources close to him said that he had pretty much made up his mind. He was ready to move on.

As for possible replacements, as John said, former Deputy Attorney General Larry Thompson, an odds on favorite, Lou, but he just took a job with PepsiCo. Not really clear if he'd be up to coming back to government.

We also heard White House counsel Alberto Gonzales mentioned as a possible candidate. Rudy Giuliani's name has come up, as well, former New York mayor, as you know. And Marc Racicot, who was the chair of the Bush/Cheney campaign. His name came up four years ago. It continues to resurface now.

Of course, nothing official. No indication from the White House that the president has actually made a decision for the attorney general post at this time.

DOBBS: And of course, Kelli, none of the names that you've mentioned nor have been considered in what the president last week referred to as the favorite sport in Washington, that of speculation on change.

And those who will continue that, by taking on these new jobs, none of those names coming from within the Justice Department. Are there any internal names?

ARENA: No. There aren't. Not yet. Of course, we have a new deputy attorney general, Jim Comey. He's only been on the job for less than a year. The betting is that he would not be moved up until the attorney general post.

Again, the one that is mentioned most often is Larry Thompson. But that could be wishful thinking, as he's very well liked, Lou.

DOBBS: Very well liked, and since it's the conventional thinking, you can almost -- well, you can start to discount some of it at least.

Kelli Arena, we thank you very much, our justice correspondent reporting from Washington.

Turning now to events today in Iraq and the battle for Falluja. Tonight, our soldiers and Marines have smashed their way through insurgent defenses and advanced to the city's center.

One of the top military commanders Iraq, General Thomas Metz, said our troops have reached all their objectives on or ahead of schedule. Senior Pentagon correspondent Jamie McIntyre reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Despite predictions of some of the fiercest urban warfare since Vietnam, so far, U.S. and Iraqi forces are meeting only sporadic and ineffective resistance as they move deep into Falluja, according to U.S. commanders.

LT. GEN. THOMAS METZ, MULTI-NATIONAL FORCE COMMANDER: I think the enemy is fighting hard but not to the death, and I think that they are continuing to if fall back.

MCINTYRE: The U.S. and Iraqi troops are finding fewer booby traps and roadside bombs than expected. And so far, casualties have been light for urban combat. In the first 48 hours, ten U.S. and two Iraqi troops were killed, with about two dozen wounded.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hey, Jay, stay out of the streets. Make sure you guys on the side of the walk. Good to go. Watch your top and bottom, watch your windows. Watch everywhere you go. Check the walls.

MCINTYRE: The offensive is ahead of schedule, with many key objectives taken as the outer crust of the insurgent defenses crumbled under the U.S.-Iraqi assault.

Along with the bridges across the Euphrates, the rail station, the hospital, several military buildings, and mosques are now secured, as the stranglehold tightened on the Jolan district thought to be an insurgent stronghold.

METZ: I think we're look at several more days of tough urban fighting. I'm very pleased at the position that we have the force in right now. And the -- the situation that the enemy is facing. He doesn't have an escape route, because we do have the cordon around the city very tight.

MCINTYRE: But Metz concedes the most wanted man in Iraq, Abu Musab al-Zarqawi probably did escape, along with his senior leaders.

METZ: I think it would be -- it was fair to assume that he's left, because we would then continue our intel effort across the country looking for him.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MCINTYRE: The question is how many of the estimated 2,000 to 3,000 insurgents who were thought to be in Falluja may have left along with Zarqawi. U.S. commanders say the next couple of days will tell the story -- Lou.

DOBBS: Jamie, thank you.

Jamie McIntyre, our senior Pentagon correspondent.

Joining me now for more in on this assault on Falluja is CNN Military Analyst David Grange.

General, this appears to be -- as urban warfare goes, to be moving very well, ahead of schedule, as General Metz put it. Your reaction?

BRIG. GEN. DAVID GRANGE (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: We're moving ahead of schedule on securing key objectives throughout the city. Now one of the most difficult parts will take place, and that's clearing the areas that they sped past to get to certain key pieces of terrain. So that will take a little while.

DOBBS: And, General, as you're speaking, we're showing video that has just come in to CNN from Falluja, this showing, obviously, fighting with tanks, firing on positions within the city.

The armor used there seems to be an extensive amount of armor. What light can you can shed on the use of armor in this assault?

GRANGE: Well, of course, the armored combat vehicles can get up close and counter some of the sniping fire. Some of the even some of the rocket-propelled grenades.

The key is, if you have a sniper that is very effective, an enemy sniper on your position, there's nothing wrong of taking him out with a 70-ton tank if you can protect your own force, and that's what they're doing when they have the opportunity.

DOBBS: Sure. And have you got a sense of the assault tactics that are being undertaken here, the strategy and any sort of schematic that will help us understand?

GRANGE: Sure. Again, the idea was to cordon off the entire city. I don't think that -- to keep insurgents from exfiltrating. Yes, some of the insurgents probably did leave, you know, being the rats that they are and poor leaders. But a lot of them did not get out, and a lot of them will stay in.

And then you see, as you show here on the schematic, you have 2-2 Infantry, 2-7 Cav, and then all the Marine units have sectors throughout the city, and they'll race to key objectives to secure those that will set conditions for the -- then the slow clearing of different areas within the city itself.

And so they have reached those key objectives, and now they go back and around the area and clean out pockets of resistance as the fleeting insurgents move throughout the city.

DOBBS: And, of course, that showing the assault led by both the Marines and the U.S. Army. But there does not appear to be any blocking action to preempt escape in that schematic, and, certainly, we wouldn't want to reveal it, if we did have it, but is a premium being placed on stopping the escape of these insurgents now that they're engaged in this assault?

GRANGE: Absolutely. It's a very tight cordon around the City of Falluja, known exfiltration routes, and it's very tight, much tighter than six months ago.

DOBBS: And civilians -- some considerable discussions. Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld yesterday responding that he did not expect many civilians to be killed, but the fact is we know the tactics of these anti-Iraqi forces is to intertwine themselves with civilians and to fight in proximity to civilians, and there's precious little that our troops can do about that, isn't there?

GRANGE: You're right. It's very difficult. And that's exactly what they do. They use civilians for camouflage, they blend in with the civilians, and they use them for cover to shield themselves from coalition fire.

But what the secretary, I think, meant is that, for about a month prior to this assault, an information campaign was ongoing to convince civilians to leave Falluja or to move to certain areas to try to keep out a number of casualties, and a lot of them, several thousand, have done that.

But there is still civilians in the town, and that is a definite constraint on the coalition attack.

DOBBS: General David Grange.

As the assault on Falluja continue, we will be keeping you up to date on this, and, of course, we'll be calling upon General Grange to analyze what is happening.

We thank you very much as always, General.

Still ahead here, the incredible hypocrisy of President Chirac of France. The French government taking military action in Africa without U.N. support. But France criticizing us for using military force in Iraq. That special report is coming up next.

In an astonishing statement by Secretary of State Colin Powell in Mexico, get used to it, he's making more than a few of those, this time, he's talking about the status of millions of illegal aliens in this country. We'll have that special report and a great deal more still ahead here.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: As American troops are battling terrorist and insurgents in Iraq, France has decried the legitimacy of U.S. operations in Iraq. Meanwhile, France has refused to support the U.S.-led assault as France itself is taking military action in the West African country of the Ivory Coast.

Kitty Pilgrim reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KITTY PILGRIM, CNN BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): France has cracked down on Ivory Coast in the City of Abidjan. The French destroyed the country's Air Force in what it called a preemptive strike after an attack killed nine French troops over the weekend.

PRINCETON LYMAN, CARNEGIE ENDOWMENT: They destroyed the Air Force, and they made the government feel it was going to be toppled by the French. Clearly, France was outraged by the attack and just decided they're not going to tolerate it anymore.

PILGRIM: But France's strong military response puts it in a tough position. France has condemned the United States for military intervention and so-called nation building in Iraq, but now it wants the United States to back its operations in Ivory Coast.

JAMES CARAFANO, THE HERITAGE FOUNDATION: It's incredibly self- serving of the French to really criticize the United States on its efforts to bring stability in the region of the world, when really the French are doing the identical thing, and really in one respect, I think, it just shows the shallowness of the French criticism. It doesn't really reflect the realities of the world, and it's very self- serving.

PILGRIM: France went into Ivory Coast as an arbiter of civil war, but is also protecting commercial interests. Fourteen thousand French expats live in the former colony. Ivory Coast is the producer of nearly half of the world's cocoa, and there are also 100 million barrel of potential offshore oil reserves.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PILGRIM: The United Nations Security Council has been meeting this afternoon to discuss the crisis in the Ivory Coast and France will be seeking its own coalition for backing some of the very tough action it's had to take in recent days. President Bush spoke with President Chirac about the situation.

DOBBS: And, also, to receive, of course, President Chirac's congratulations, which I know must have lifted the heart of President Chirac considerably upon his reelection.

Kitty Pilgrim.

Thank you.

When we continue here tonight, the Bush agenda. How the president's decisive victory will effect his plans for the next four years. Our special report coming up next.

And then, conservative fallout after controversial comments from Senator Arlen Specter. Senator Specter is our guest coming right up here tonight.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: Now we continue our series of special reports this week on the Bush agenda. Tonight, we focus on education.

Education did not receive nearly the attention that the military records of the two presidential candidates received during this campaign. But, certainly, last week, President Bush vowed to focus on education during his second term.

Bill Tucker reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BILL TUCKER, CNN FINANCIAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): President Bush wasted no time declaring education one of his top priorities for his second term.

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We'll make public schools all they can be.

TUCKER: Promising to work in a bipartisan spirit, the president seems to have already found new allies. The president of the National Education Association is extending an olive branch.

REG WEAVER, PRESIDENT, NATIONAL EDUCATION ASSOCIATION: I want to make sure that there is something that we can try to gather together on to reach some kind of common ground so that we can move forward to doing what is best for the young people of America.

TUCKER: The last public exchange between the NEA and the administration was less civil, with Education Secretary Rod Paige calling the NEA a terrorist organization.

Weaver's comments indicate a more constructive stance, but just exactly what the Bush administration will do to make schools all they can be is not clear.

BUSH: In a new term, we'll continue to make sure we do not weaken the accountability standards that are making a huge difference in people's lives, in these kids' lives.

TUCKER: Federal spending on education rose 36 percent in the president's first term. Given the size of the record budget deficit and Bush's other priority of Social Security reform, another such increase is unlikely. And despite its enormous controversy, educators are not arguing that No Child Left Behind be repealed, just fixed.

BRENDA WELBURN, NATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF STATE BOARDS OF EDUCATION: It appears that there will be a continued focus on reading and literacy, a focus on high school reform for all students and some mid-course correction on No Child Left Behind to address issues around children whose first language isn't English and special education students.

TUCKER: And educators are saying to look for legislation to be introduced perhaps this winter reviving the idea of vouchers for private schools.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

TUCKER: Now a voucher system was originally included in the No Child Left Behind Act, but was written out in a compromise. Proponents, however, want to see them make a comeback because, Lou, for whatever reason, they don't want to see their kids in public schools.

DOBBS: Well, that's a shame because the voucher systems, magnet systems, charters -- and many of them have been very successful, but they're all ways in which to either ignore or deflect the fact we're not in control of these public schools and we're not giving them the support they need.

TUCKER: And detract funding away from public schools.

DOBBS: Absolutely.

Thank you very much.

Bill Tucker.

And it's great see Reg Weaver actually -- the head of the NEA -- I mean, if we could see two men like Reg Weaver and Rod Paige come together and be constructive, that would be pretty positive for all of us.

Thank you very much, Bill Tucker.

Tonight's thought is on education, and the budget makers in Washington might consider these words expressed long ago.

"The school is the last expenditure upon which America should be willing to economize."

Those the words of Franklin D. Roosevelt.

Coming up next here, why two members of the Bush administration are in Mexico tonight. They're there pushing for legal status for millions of illegal aliens in this country. We'll have that story on a policy not yet formed, but apparently already under way.

Also, Senator Arlen Specter will join me. He's ready to fight for the chairmanship of the Judiciary Committee. I'll talk with Senator Specter about his chances of winning that fights, his thoughts about the future makeup of the U.S. Supreme Court.

In fighting back against efforts to crack down on illegal aliens in this country, Phoenix Mayor Phil Gordon is among those leading perhaps a fight to blunt the will of the people. He'll be here to tell us about the policies of the City of Phoenix and Proposition 200.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ANNOUNCER: LOU DOBBS TONIGHT continues. Here now for more news, debate and opinion, Lou Dobbs.

DOBBS: In just a moment, I'll be talking with Senator Arlen Specter, but, first, let's take a look at some of the top stories now in the news.

In the Scott Peterson double murder trial, they're down to four alternates after replacing juror number seven today. That jury has been deliberating since last Wednesday, they've been empaneled almost six months, and now they begin deliberations all over again. No immediate reason given for dismissing the juror.

Police in Richardson, Texas, releasing incredible pictures today of a car chase and gun battle with three suspected bank robbers. One police officer was wounded during the chase. The suspects were able to escape. But one suspect later turned himself in to authorities.

In Los Angeles, a dramatic rescue during a hostage situation outside the Mexican consulate. Police shot a man as he tried to kidnap a woman. The man tonight is reported in critical condition.

Top Palestinian aides say Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat has suffered a brain hemorrhage. That word hours after French hospital officials said Arafat had slipped into a deeper coma. Arafat was hospitalized in Paris last month with an undisclosed condition.

Turning now to politics in this country, social conservative groups have claimed much of the credit for President Bush's decisive reelection. Now, they say they have high expectations for his next four years.

Lisa Sylvester reports from Washington.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

LISA SYLVESTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Top political adviser Karl Rove gave conservative groups what they were looking for this week, a promise to champion a federal constitutional amendment banning gay marriage. Eleven states passed similar amendments last week. In exit polls in about 1 in 5 voters ranked moral values as the most important issue in the election.

PETER SPRIGG, FAMILY RESEARCH COUNCIL: I think we see an overwhelming consensus in favor of defining marriage as the union of one man and one woman. It's clear that's a vast majority of Americans believe that.

SYLVESTER: But changing the constitution would require the support of two-thirds of both the Senate and the House, and the legislatures in three quarters of the states. Congress already failed once this year to pass a gay ban amendment.

PAUL ROTHSTEIN, GEORGETOWN UNIV. LAW PROFESSOR: It is extremely difficult to amend the Constitution, and it is a matter of a great moment. And even people who are very much in favor of a cause that would be expressed by an amendment very frequently are reluctant to undergo the rigors of this rigorous process.

SYLVESTER: But conservatives are emboldened by the election results. They also plan to push a pro-life bill that focuses on fetal pain, strengthen a ban on partial birth abortion, and fight for pro- life Supreme Court nominees. Liberal groups say they are confident the public will not back a dramatic swing to the right.

CHERYL JACQUES, HUMAN RIGHTS CAMPAIGN: What I don't think they want is this country to be run by one particular religious dogma, and I think there is a danger of that happening. And I think the American people will -- will swing back against that and say no, that's not what we meant at all.

SYLVESTER: For now, conservatives have the upper hand, Republican majorities in the House and the Senate, and a president who knows who helped push him over the top.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SYLVESTER: In the next four years, as many as three U.S. Supreme Court Justices may leave, dramatically shifting the make up of the high court -- Lou.

DOBBS: Lisa Sylvester, thank you.

My next guest created a political firestorm last week when he said President Bush should be mindful the Democrats can still filibuster judicial nominees. That firestorm continues this week.

Senator Arlen Specter denies that he intended to warn President Bush about nominating conservative judges and said his comment was simply misreported. Senator Specter joins me tonight from Washington, D.C.

Senator, good to have you with us.

SEN. ARLEN SPECTER (R), PENNSYLVANIA: Thank you for the invitation. Glad to be here.

DOBBS: The White House press secretary Scott McClellan today did not exactly become effusive in expressing the president's support for your chairmanship. Are you confident that that chairmanship is yours, the chairmanship of the Judiciary Committee?

SPECTER: I don't believe in expressing confidence. My approach is to work hard, leave no stone unturned, and not count my chickens until -- until they're hatched. But when you deal with the issue of my position, I have never had a litmus test. I have voted for Supreme Court nominees who have been pro-life, see Justice Rehnquist, Justice Scalia. I led the fight to confirm Justice Clarence Thomas. So there's no question about my deeds as well as my words in not having a single-issue litmus test.

DOBBS: So, therefore, any potential nominee expressing opposition of Roe versus Wade, would, if voted out by the committee, you would have no problem with that?

SPECTER: I would not make my decision on any Supreme Court nominee or any judicial nominee based on a single issue. That has been my position consistently for two decades.

DOBBS: And Senator, what is the feedback you're getting from colleagues? The response, your sense of the will of your colleagues in the Senate and the reaction of the White House?

SPECTER: Well, once I lay the facts on the line, a lot of the concern disappears. I'm a believer in the facts. When you deal with two basic facts, number one that I have supported President Bush's nominees in the committee, and on the Senate floor and 17 times went to the floor to argue against the Democrats' filibusters. And secondly that I have a long record of having supported pro-life nominees in the Supreme Court, because I don't believe in a single- issue candidacy. And you have the statement by Karl Rove on the weekend that I'm a man of my word and they'll take me at my word. Nobody's ever doubted my integrity.

DOBBS: And yet you say the press misreported your comments last week.

How so?

SPECTER: What is that, my...

DOBBS: You said last week that the press misreported your statements, that set off this firestorm. How so?

SPECTER: Well, I simply didn't warn the president. Fox had a commentary that they'd examined the transcript very closely, and that some reporter was looking for a headline, and quoted me as saying things that I didn't say. I didn't warn the president. Rush Limbaugh made a comment that it was the media again putting words in my mouth. So you have people who have looked at the tape, and I'm glad to provide a transcript to the tape to anybody who wants to see it. I said that there could be a problem with confirmations in light of Democratic filibusters, that's a political fact of life. And that's not a warning to anyone about anything.

DOBBS: No, and as you say, it sounds like a straightforward statement of the facts as we know them in Washington, D.C.

Senator Arlen Specter, we thank you for being with us here.

SPECTER: Glad to be with you, thank you.

DOBBS: Tomorrow we'll have much more on what to expect over the next four years of the Bush administration as we continue our look at the Bush agenda for the next four years. South Dakota Senator-elect John Thune who defected Senator Minority Leader Tom Daschle will join me. I'll also be joined by "Vanity Fair" columnist Christopher Hitchens with a few thoughts that he has on both the state of the body politic and the prospects for this administration.

Secretary of State Colin Powell today said giving legal status to millions of illegal aliens in this country is a high priority for President Bush. Secretary Powell and Homeland Security Secretary Tom Ridge are in Mexico meeting with Mexican officials who are urging them to give more rights to Mexicans living in this country illegally.

Casey Wian reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): U.S. Homeland Security Secretary Tom Ridge and Mexican Interior Minister Santiago Creel stood under a portrait of Benito Juarez, the man who liberated Mexico from the French. Ridge and Creel spoke of their plans to liberate up to six million illegal aliens from U.S. immigration law. Their first priority, President Bush's proposed temporary worker program.

TOM RIDGE, HOMELAND SECURITY SECRETARY: I think it's just important to reiterate that when the president spoke about a very specific approach to deal with -- to address the problem of so many illegal immigrants from Mexico and other places who while crossing our borders illegally work, contribute to our vitality of businesses in our economic way of life.

WIAN: There was no mention of the economic costs of illegal aliens from government services to lower wages.

SANTIAGO CREEL, MEXICAN INTERIOR MINISTER (through translator): We would like to guarantee that our citizens who work on the other side of the border without documents that there could be some plan that permits them to work legally, and that their human rights and labor rights are guaranteed.

WIAN: Creel has been the Mexican government's most strident critic of U.S. immigration policy. Just last week calling it absurd. Today he complained about the U.S. Border Patrol's use of nonlethal air rifles that shoot pepper spray ammunition. Officials of both administrations spoke of their efforts to improve security and the free flow of legal traffic across the worlds busiest land border. Apparently the last remaining hurdle is the U.S. Congress.

COLIN POWELL, SECRETARY OF STATE: We will make an assessment with the new Congress, the pace at which we can proceed with temporary worker programs. And how fast and how far we can move in what period of time.

WIAN: President Bush's immigration reform plan will be a year old by the time Congress takes up the issue in January.

(on camera): Both governments are counting on the fact that 2005 will not be an election year. Their agendas would have not been likely to pass this year, because most voters don't approve of legal status for illegal aliens.

Casey Wian, CNN, Los Angeles.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

DOBBS: That brings us to the subject of our poll tonight. The question is do you agree with Secretary of State Colin Powell, that millions of illegal aliens in this country should be given legal status, yes or no? Cast you vote at cnn.com/lou. We'll have the results later in the broadcast.

Voters in Arizona voted overwhelmingly in favor of Proposition 200, that initiative cuts off state benefits for illegal aliens and prevents them from voting. Tomorrow the Phoenix City counsel will vote to protect city employees who might be sued for providing a public benefit to an illegal alien, once proposition 200 does become law. The mayor of Phoenix, Phil Gordon, opposed proposition 200. He believes it's the responsibility of the federal government to secure our borders. And Mayor Gordon joins me tonight from Phoenix.

Mayor, good to have you with us.

MAYOR PHIL GORDON, PHOENIX: Thank you very much, Lou.

DOBBS: This is a hotly contested issue in the state of Arizona, many other states in this country, certainly all of the border states. What are you trying to accomplish with this initiative in the city council?

GORDON: Well, first and foremost, let me say that the city will follow the law. The problem is, we don't know what that law means. It was so poorly drafted. And the way it's written is that a city employee can be sued by anybody in the state, and criminally liable. That chills our government from moving forward until the courts decide what this law means, and how to define it. So that what we're going to do tomorrow is indemnify any city employee that's sued under this law, provided the city employee is within the scope of his or her employment, and secondly, is following the policy of the city, which is to implement the law as best as we can.

DOBBS: To implement the law as best you can, you are already on the record in opposing it, as is the Arizona delegation. The governor of your state, yet your state...

GORDON: Senator McCain and others.

DOBBS: You're right. Now, that's terrific, except the people of Arizona have voted through referendum to put this forward. You say it's worded poorly. All of the constitutional experts and initiative experts who've weighed in on this said that it was balanced, that there was nothing that would suggest it would be in any way in the same difficulty as Proposition 187 found itself in California some years ago.

GORDON: Well, Lou, again, let me emphasize, the city is not trying to stop the will of the voters. We'll follow the law. The reason I opposed it was, it was poorly written. It will require courts to rule on this for years, and the attorneys are the ones that are going to be the winners. The citizens of Arizona will be the losers.

Having said that, we don't know what welfare benefits, what public benefits are. People are arguing today, as we speak, those same constitutional experts are in the paper having difference of opinions. All we're asking is we want the courts to tell us how to implement that law. That's number one.

Number two, we don't want our employees, 14,000 hard-working police officers, firefighters being sued for following what we believe the law is. We're going to try to interpret that. But there are so many questions, Lou, that we don't know what to do.

DOBBS: Well, you do have a counsel there in the city government, don't you, Mayor?

GORDON: Yes.

DOBBS: What does he say, or she?

GORDON: Well, our attorney actually is saying exactly what I'm saying. Is that, number one, there are two questions. How do we implement election law in terms of proving one's residency? That's not done. And then two is, what is a benefit? Is it a library card? Is it a welfare benefit? Is it going to a park? Is it some of these...

DOBBS: How about any benefit rendered by a government agency in the state of Arizona? Wouldn't that cover it?

GORDON: Well, Lou, first of all, the question is, what is a benefit? Is it those that are paid for, or given free? But let me take your point...

DOBBS: Mayor, take one more point instead. Let me ask you this. Why isn't there so much -- why isn't there as much concern about the word "illegal" -- illegal, in the state of Arizona?

GORDON: Lou, that's our point. My point has always been the federal government has got to do something about illegal immigration. I've said it, we've said it before. We're a border state and a border city that's getting hurt by this.

(CROSSTALK)

GORDON: ... nothing to do about that.

DOBBS: I guess what I'm -- I guess what I'm saying, Mayor, is that to me, surely you get irony. You appreciate the irony of your state's governor, you as the mayor of the city's largest, most distinguished city, the delegation of the state of Arizona, including Senator John McCain, sort of worrying over this proposition, yet each of those people has had an opportunity for now over a decade in nearly all cases to do something about it, and yet they're clucking over Proposition 200. Don't you find that extraordinarily ironic?

GORDON: Well, again, I can't speak for the delegation or any of the congressmen or senators throughout the country.

I can speak as the mayor of Phoenix. Is, number one, immigration is not a local issue. The city of Phoenix can't regulate immigration for the country or for the state.

But, Lou, let me go back to the point that you made, is let's define it your way. I want to make the point of why we as a city are concerned. That all benefits -- the problem is, there are many individuals that are arguing it's only certain benefits. They can sue our city employees under this law, which means it wipes out our city employees' accounts by following your advice, which let's say we all agree with. All we're asking is the court, please define what it is so that our employees won't be sued. And I want to protect our employees to do the right thing. All we're asking is, tell us what it is.

DOBBS: Yeah, and I'm sure as well, want to protect the citizens of the great city of Phoenix. Have you all considered maybe suing the federal government for not enforcing the immigration laws?

GORDON: No. That, you know...

DOBBS: I'm just curious.

GORDON: Yeah, no. What we have asked is that the -- and I have said it, you know what, come up with an immigration law that's enforceable and works. Whatever it is, that's what we'll support. But that's a national issue, and it has to get done.

DOBBS: Mayor, we thank you very much. Mayor Phil Gordon.

GORDON: Thank you.

DOBBS: Come back soon.

GORDON: Come on to Phoenix. It's a great city.

DOBBS: We'll be there, thank you.

Still ahead, the future of the U.S. Supreme Court. How aging justices and a new term for President Bush will affect our nation's highest court. The editor of a new book on Justice Scalia, Kevin Ring joins me.

And exporting America. Why companies that ship American jobs overseas are celebrating President Bush's reelection. All of that and a great deal more. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: Over the next four years, the president could have the opportunity to appoint a number of Supreme Court justices. Those appointments could affect, of course, decisions on a number of sensitive, even historic issues, from abortion rights to a ban on gay marriage.

Kevin Ring is the author of the new book, "Scalia Dissents: Writings of the Supreme Court's Wittiest, Most Outspoken Justice." Ring is also an attorney and former counsel to the Senate Constitution Subcommittee, joining us here in New York.

Thanks for writing a terrific book on a fellow who -- you couldn't be more timely, could you?

KEVIN RING, AUTHOR, "SCALIA DISSENTS": No, this worked out pretty well.

DOBBS: Arlen Specter, let's just start, the Judiciary Committee is going to have to bring these people out as they're nominated by the president. Do you expect him to begin with just the list that has already been tried and true, tested and true? RING: Well, I think that may be the case for the circuit courts appointments, but I think if Chief Justice Rehnquist's health doesn't improve and he does have to step down, then I think the names that have been floated already are...

DOBBS: Clarence Thomas.

RING: Clarence Thomas.

DOBBS: Justice Scalia.

RING: Justice Scalia. And I think it's likely that he may promote from within.

DOBBS: And which do you think has the best chance?

RING: I think Justice Scalia has the best chance.

DOBBS: That's why I asked.

RING: I didn't write "Thomas Dissents." And I think that's because he's been on the court longer, he's more seasoned. He's an intellectual leader on the court. And I think his philosophy is one that really captures the president's.

DOBBS: You didn't write, as you say, "Thomas Dissents," but the fact is, he is considered conservative. Do you find him capable and ready for that position, should the president so decide?

RING: Oh, I think absolutely. I think it would be a historic pick. He would be the first black chief justice, and he's absolutely qualified.

DOBBS: Sandra Day O'Connor.

RING: Yes.

DOBBS: Is a swing voter. Justice Kennedy. What do you expect in the course of her term?

RING: I suspect she may retire as well during the next four years. I think Kennedy will stay on. I don't think either one is a likely choice to take over as chief justice.

DOBBS: I don't think I have heard at any time, and for obvious reasons it is now, so much speculation about the type of justice that will be moving forward, since Robert Bork. Do you expect the president to stay with conservative nominees that will stick to, if you will, a strict constructionist tone?

RING: I think that's the case. I think that's in his record, at least with his court appointments to this point for the lower courts. And I suspect that'll be the case, especially after that last election, where moral values were a number one motivator for voters. I think he's going to want judges who are not necessarily conservative or liberal, but are going to have a philosophy that allows those decisions to be decided democratically and not by the court.

DOBBS: Do you think it is appropriate for the Judiciary Committee to examine carefully our nominees' positions on Roe v. Wade? Gay marriage?

RING: Yes. I think -- I think -- not specific decisions necessarily, but I think, one, they're supposed to test competence. And two, whether they have a philosophy that fits within the mainstream of sort of judicial thought, and I think Clarence Thomas and Antonin Scalia both obviously fit that. They have served well on the court for over a decade.

DOBBS: Do you think there is any prospect that over the course of the years ahead, if the court does make a greater move to the conservative side, that Roe v. Wade could be in jeopardy?

RING: I think there's a chance. I think that's probably far off. And in fact, losing Chief Justice Rehnquist, if he decides to retire, I mean, replacing him with Scalia or Thomas doesn't shift the balance of the court at all. So you'd have to lose a few of the other justices, and even then it's not clear whether you're going to have a conservative who will overturn a 30-year precedent. So it's not clear at this point.

But again, even overturning Roe v. Wade will just turn things back to the states.

DOBBS: "Scalia Dissents." Thanks for being here.

RING: Thanks for having me.

DOBBS: Take care. Good luck with the book.

RING: Thanks.

DOBBS: Still ahead, outsourcers delight. Why President Bush's reelection could also be a victory for corporations that ship American jobs overseas to those cheap labor markets. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: We've reported here on the loss of hundreds of thousands of American jobs to cheap foreign labor markets for the past two years. That loss of jobs is now accelerating. With the reelection of President Bush, Indian outsourcing companies in particular are screaming and are thrilled. Their CEOs say President Bush, in their view, will do absolutely nothing to slow the pace of outsourcing. Christine Romans is here now with the story -- Christine.

CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, the biggest outsourcing companies are thrilled because they see the president's election as giving them a green light to drive even more American jobs to cheap overseas labor markets.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) MICHAEL GILDEA, AFL-CIO: Christmas came early to India. It's clear that the outsourcing of American jobs are going to continue apace, and there's no end in sight.

ROMANS (voice-over): Bush's reelection so delighted the Indian Information Technology Trade Group, it issued a statement loading the president's outsourcing track record. Confident, it said, that "with George Bush getting reelected, the growth momentum in outsourcing will continue." Companies like Infosys, Wipro, Cognizant, are counting dozens of new American customers each quarter, and betting on revenue growth unfettered by Washington.

CARL GUARDINO, PRESIDENT, SILICON VALLEY MFG. GROUP: We have to recognize that we're in a competition. So will companies continue to place jobs in facilities around the world to serve those markets and to compete globally? Absolutely.

ROMANS: Some see permissive policies on outsourcing as part of a larger Bush agenda to further liberalize trade policy.

DANIEL GRISWOLD, CATO INSTITUTE: We're going to see a continued expansion of America's trade with the rest of the world, with outsourcing just being one facet.

ROMANS: The other facets that Griswold does not mention include a rising record trade deficit, estimated to be $600 billion this year, and an almost $4 trillion trade debt.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ROMANS: And, Lou, the Indian outsourcers go a little further. Their trade group hopes the Bush administration will also ease visa restrictions so that Indian workers can come to this country to work those jobs that haven't been exported to India.

DOBBS: We wouldn't want anyone to have to go to any difficulty to take away an American job, would we?

ROMANS: No, not at all, I guess.

DOBBS: The fact of the matter is, 28 consecutive years of trade deficits, it looks like somebody may get an opportunity to review this, though, because with the dollar declining, deficits skyrocketing, we'll just have to see, as they say.

Thank you very much, Christine. Christine Romans.

Still ahead here, the results of tonight's poll and a preview of what's ahead tomorrow. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: And the results of our poll tonight are: 17 percent of you agree with Secretary of State Colin Powell that millions of illegal aliens in this country should be given legal status; 83 percent do not agree with the secretary. Thanks for being with us here tonight. Please join us tomorrow as we continue our week-long series on the Bush agenda. Tomorrow, we focus on immigration policy, and I'll be joined by Senator-elect John Thune, on defeating the Senate's top Democrat, and the role of bipartisanship in the next four years. For all of us here, thanks for being with us. Good night from New York. "ANDERSON COOPER 360" is next.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com


Aired November 9, 2004 - 18:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LOU DOBBS, HOST (voice-over): Tonight, our troops are blasting the way into the center of Falluja. Dozens of anti-Iraqi forces have been killed in the assault in the insurgent stronghold.

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Coalition forces are now moving into Falluja to bring to justice those who are willing to kill the innocent.

DOBBS: And tonight, the hypocrisy of France. President Chirac is a strong and frequent critic of our policy in Iraq, but President Chirac doesn't hesitate to use military force in West Africa without U.N. approval.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They are looking an awful lot like a traditional colonial power.

DOBBS: Senator Arlen Specter faces a tough battle with conservatives to win the chairman for the Judiciary Committee. I talked with Senator Specter about his chances of winning that fight and his views on likely nominees to the U.S. Supreme Court.

Voters in Arizona strongly support Proposition 200 to stop illegal aliens from receiving state benefits. Is the mayor of the city of Phoenix trying to blunt the will of the people? Phoenix Mayor Phil Gordon is my guest.

ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT for Tuesday, November 9. Here now for an hour of news, debate, and opinion is Lou Dobbs.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

DOBBS: Good evening.

We begin tonight with breaking news from the White House. Attorney General John Ashcroft and Commerce Secretary Don Evans have both resigned. They are the first cabinet members to resign since President Bush won re-election.

Our senior White House correspondent, John King, has the report -- John.

JOHN KING, CNN CORRESPONDENT: And, Lou, both high-profile members of the Bush cabinet, one, in Don Evans, a close personal friend of the president as well as being the commerce secretary, the other John Ashcroft, the man who has led the Justice Department since the September 11 attacks, before then as well.

But of course, some controversy since 9/11, enforcing the Patriot Act. Other actions taken against terrorists and potential terrorists here in the United States, and abroad.

Both -- the White House releasing resignation letters from both tonight and Scott McClellan, the White House press secretary, saying the president will move as quickly and expeditiously as possible to pick new nominees to help the departments of justice and commerce.

This, if I can show you, is the hand-written note from the attorney general. Mr. Ashcroft resigning. It's dated on election day. He said he wrote it out handwritten himself to protect its confidentiality. So that he could work with the president on when to make this news public. Because he said he wanted to have a smooth transition.

The attorney general saying he believes the Justice Department would benefit from new leadership and that he believes it is best for him to turn his efforts and energy to other endeavors.

Secretary Evans dating his letter today, November 9, saying that he has decided begrudgingly that it is time to return home to Texas.

Again, the White House releasing these two letters tonight. Senior officials say this there could be more cabinet members leaving in the days ahead, although they also note the president and his chief of staff have asked that anyone who plans on leaving before the start of the second term, let the president know this week.

Again, the White House saying it would move as quickly as possible to replace these two. Already, senior administration officials are suggesting one likely candidate to be contacted, to be explored, any way, as a potential replacement for Ashcroft, will be Larry Thompson, who was his deputy at the Justice Department for much of the first term.

And again, Lou, this news coming to us tonight. The White House chief of staff, Andy Card, made it known over the weekend that he would stay for a second term. Officials say it is possible one or two other cabinet members could be leaving. The president tonight look for two very high-profile replacements as he prepares for a second term -- Lou.

DOBBS: A number of questions. John, because of the timing of these resignations, and I know that it may be difficult because this has all happened within the last half hour.

But first, the president at Camp David to review his cabinet and those he would want to stay on, John Ashcroft resigning on election day. On election day, we didn't even know if he would be re-elected.

Is it correct to say that was the situation for Attorney General Ashcroft?

KING: Yes, Attorney General Ashcroft, White House officials said, had made the decision to leave regardless of the election results.

Obviously, he would stay through the end of the term. If the president had lost the election, he would stay through the end of the term. But the attorney general -- the president knew when he had has news conference saying he was going to ponder his second term cabinet when he went up to Camp David. He already, of course, had this letter in his possession. He did not disclose that publicly.

Mr. Bush, of course, reserving the right to think and reflect on all this before making the news public.

DOBBS: And help us, John, understand the timing of this, coming one week to the day from election day, at about the 5:45 when this news broke this afternoon. Peculiar timing, is it not?

KING: Well, the White House said it would make this news public. If anyone leaving, as soon as it deemed it appropriate to make it public.

We do know that the chief of staff, Andy Card, has sent word to the president himself when he met with his cabinet last week. Word had been sent that if anyone was planning to resign, that they wanted that word delivered to the White House by Thursday of this week. That is tomorrow of course.

Again, we're told there could be one or two more. But these are two high-profile members of the cabinet. The White House simply deciding once the president had accepted these resignations, to make it public. That is what the White House is telling us tonight, and again, saying the president will move expeditiously.

The attorney general post, obviously of high importance. The president will have at least now two nominations to make in the days and weeks ahead.

DOBBS: John King, our senior White House correspondent, thank you John.

For more on the resignation of Attorney General John Ashcroft, we go to justice correspondent Kelli Arena in Washington -- Kelli.

KELLI ARENA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Lou, obviously this is not a big surprise. We reported here on -- just on your program last week that sources close to the attorney general fully expected him to submit his resignation.

As John said, his letter was handwritten for confidentiality reasons, and I'll read a little bit of it to you. I think -- he says, "The objective of securing the safety of Americans from crime and terror has been achieved."

He goes on to say that he feels that his energies could be used in other challenging horizons. No word yet from the Justice Department on exactly what John Ashcroft plans to do with his future.

Obviously, his health, according to some of his close aides, was a factor here. He did have pancreatitis earlier in year, and he has served as something of a lightning rod for this administration, as you know, Lou. His aides said that he felt somewhat vindicated by the election results, was energized.

But all along, sources close to him said that he had pretty much made up his mind. He was ready to move on.

As for possible replacements, as John said, former Deputy Attorney General Larry Thompson, an odds on favorite, Lou, but he just took a job with PepsiCo. Not really clear if he'd be up to coming back to government.

We also heard White House counsel Alberto Gonzales mentioned as a possible candidate. Rudy Giuliani's name has come up, as well, former New York mayor, as you know. And Marc Racicot, who was the chair of the Bush/Cheney campaign. His name came up four years ago. It continues to resurface now.

Of course, nothing official. No indication from the White House that the president has actually made a decision for the attorney general post at this time.

DOBBS: And of course, Kelli, none of the names that you've mentioned nor have been considered in what the president last week referred to as the favorite sport in Washington, that of speculation on change.

And those who will continue that, by taking on these new jobs, none of those names coming from within the Justice Department. Are there any internal names?

ARENA: No. There aren't. Not yet. Of course, we have a new deputy attorney general, Jim Comey. He's only been on the job for less than a year. The betting is that he would not be moved up until the attorney general post.

Again, the one that is mentioned most often is Larry Thompson. But that could be wishful thinking, as he's very well liked, Lou.

DOBBS: Very well liked, and since it's the conventional thinking, you can almost -- well, you can start to discount some of it at least.

Kelli Arena, we thank you very much, our justice correspondent reporting from Washington.

Turning now to events today in Iraq and the battle for Falluja. Tonight, our soldiers and Marines have smashed their way through insurgent defenses and advanced to the city's center.

One of the top military commanders Iraq, General Thomas Metz, said our troops have reached all their objectives on or ahead of schedule. Senior Pentagon correspondent Jamie McIntyre reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Despite predictions of some of the fiercest urban warfare since Vietnam, so far, U.S. and Iraqi forces are meeting only sporadic and ineffective resistance as they move deep into Falluja, according to U.S. commanders.

LT. GEN. THOMAS METZ, MULTI-NATIONAL FORCE COMMANDER: I think the enemy is fighting hard but not to the death, and I think that they are continuing to if fall back.

MCINTYRE: The U.S. and Iraqi troops are finding fewer booby traps and roadside bombs than expected. And so far, casualties have been light for urban combat. In the first 48 hours, ten U.S. and two Iraqi troops were killed, with about two dozen wounded.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hey, Jay, stay out of the streets. Make sure you guys on the side of the walk. Good to go. Watch your top and bottom, watch your windows. Watch everywhere you go. Check the walls.

MCINTYRE: The offensive is ahead of schedule, with many key objectives taken as the outer crust of the insurgent defenses crumbled under the U.S.-Iraqi assault.

Along with the bridges across the Euphrates, the rail station, the hospital, several military buildings, and mosques are now secured, as the stranglehold tightened on the Jolan district thought to be an insurgent stronghold.

METZ: I think we're look at several more days of tough urban fighting. I'm very pleased at the position that we have the force in right now. And the -- the situation that the enemy is facing. He doesn't have an escape route, because we do have the cordon around the city very tight.

MCINTYRE: But Metz concedes the most wanted man in Iraq, Abu Musab al-Zarqawi probably did escape, along with his senior leaders.

METZ: I think it would be -- it was fair to assume that he's left, because we would then continue our intel effort across the country looking for him.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MCINTYRE: The question is how many of the estimated 2,000 to 3,000 insurgents who were thought to be in Falluja may have left along with Zarqawi. U.S. commanders say the next couple of days will tell the story -- Lou.

DOBBS: Jamie, thank you.

Jamie McIntyre, our senior Pentagon correspondent.

Joining me now for more in on this assault on Falluja is CNN Military Analyst David Grange.

General, this appears to be -- as urban warfare goes, to be moving very well, ahead of schedule, as General Metz put it. Your reaction?

BRIG. GEN. DAVID GRANGE (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: We're moving ahead of schedule on securing key objectives throughout the city. Now one of the most difficult parts will take place, and that's clearing the areas that they sped past to get to certain key pieces of terrain. So that will take a little while.

DOBBS: And, General, as you're speaking, we're showing video that has just come in to CNN from Falluja, this showing, obviously, fighting with tanks, firing on positions within the city.

The armor used there seems to be an extensive amount of armor. What light can you can shed on the use of armor in this assault?

GRANGE: Well, of course, the armored combat vehicles can get up close and counter some of the sniping fire. Some of the even some of the rocket-propelled grenades.

The key is, if you have a sniper that is very effective, an enemy sniper on your position, there's nothing wrong of taking him out with a 70-ton tank if you can protect your own force, and that's what they're doing when they have the opportunity.

DOBBS: Sure. And have you got a sense of the assault tactics that are being undertaken here, the strategy and any sort of schematic that will help us understand?

GRANGE: Sure. Again, the idea was to cordon off the entire city. I don't think that -- to keep insurgents from exfiltrating. Yes, some of the insurgents probably did leave, you know, being the rats that they are and poor leaders. But a lot of them did not get out, and a lot of them will stay in.

And then you see, as you show here on the schematic, you have 2-2 Infantry, 2-7 Cav, and then all the Marine units have sectors throughout the city, and they'll race to key objectives to secure those that will set conditions for the -- then the slow clearing of different areas within the city itself.

And so they have reached those key objectives, and now they go back and around the area and clean out pockets of resistance as the fleeting insurgents move throughout the city.

DOBBS: And, of course, that showing the assault led by both the Marines and the U.S. Army. But there does not appear to be any blocking action to preempt escape in that schematic, and, certainly, we wouldn't want to reveal it, if we did have it, but is a premium being placed on stopping the escape of these insurgents now that they're engaged in this assault?

GRANGE: Absolutely. It's a very tight cordon around the City of Falluja, known exfiltration routes, and it's very tight, much tighter than six months ago.

DOBBS: And civilians -- some considerable discussions. Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld yesterday responding that he did not expect many civilians to be killed, but the fact is we know the tactics of these anti-Iraqi forces is to intertwine themselves with civilians and to fight in proximity to civilians, and there's precious little that our troops can do about that, isn't there?

GRANGE: You're right. It's very difficult. And that's exactly what they do. They use civilians for camouflage, they blend in with the civilians, and they use them for cover to shield themselves from coalition fire.

But what the secretary, I think, meant is that, for about a month prior to this assault, an information campaign was ongoing to convince civilians to leave Falluja or to move to certain areas to try to keep out a number of casualties, and a lot of them, several thousand, have done that.

But there is still civilians in the town, and that is a definite constraint on the coalition attack.

DOBBS: General David Grange.

As the assault on Falluja continue, we will be keeping you up to date on this, and, of course, we'll be calling upon General Grange to analyze what is happening.

We thank you very much as always, General.

Still ahead here, the incredible hypocrisy of President Chirac of France. The French government taking military action in Africa without U.N. support. But France criticizing us for using military force in Iraq. That special report is coming up next.

In an astonishing statement by Secretary of State Colin Powell in Mexico, get used to it, he's making more than a few of those, this time, he's talking about the status of millions of illegal aliens in this country. We'll have that special report and a great deal more still ahead here.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: As American troops are battling terrorist and insurgents in Iraq, France has decried the legitimacy of U.S. operations in Iraq. Meanwhile, France has refused to support the U.S.-led assault as France itself is taking military action in the West African country of the Ivory Coast.

Kitty Pilgrim reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KITTY PILGRIM, CNN BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): France has cracked down on Ivory Coast in the City of Abidjan. The French destroyed the country's Air Force in what it called a preemptive strike after an attack killed nine French troops over the weekend.

PRINCETON LYMAN, CARNEGIE ENDOWMENT: They destroyed the Air Force, and they made the government feel it was going to be toppled by the French. Clearly, France was outraged by the attack and just decided they're not going to tolerate it anymore.

PILGRIM: But France's strong military response puts it in a tough position. France has condemned the United States for military intervention and so-called nation building in Iraq, but now it wants the United States to back its operations in Ivory Coast.

JAMES CARAFANO, THE HERITAGE FOUNDATION: It's incredibly self- serving of the French to really criticize the United States on its efforts to bring stability in the region of the world, when really the French are doing the identical thing, and really in one respect, I think, it just shows the shallowness of the French criticism. It doesn't really reflect the realities of the world, and it's very self- serving.

PILGRIM: France went into Ivory Coast as an arbiter of civil war, but is also protecting commercial interests. Fourteen thousand French expats live in the former colony. Ivory Coast is the producer of nearly half of the world's cocoa, and there are also 100 million barrel of potential offshore oil reserves.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PILGRIM: The United Nations Security Council has been meeting this afternoon to discuss the crisis in the Ivory Coast and France will be seeking its own coalition for backing some of the very tough action it's had to take in recent days. President Bush spoke with President Chirac about the situation.

DOBBS: And, also, to receive, of course, President Chirac's congratulations, which I know must have lifted the heart of President Chirac considerably upon his reelection.

Kitty Pilgrim.

Thank you.

When we continue here tonight, the Bush agenda. How the president's decisive victory will effect his plans for the next four years. Our special report coming up next.

And then, conservative fallout after controversial comments from Senator Arlen Specter. Senator Specter is our guest coming right up here tonight.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: Now we continue our series of special reports this week on the Bush agenda. Tonight, we focus on education.

Education did not receive nearly the attention that the military records of the two presidential candidates received during this campaign. But, certainly, last week, President Bush vowed to focus on education during his second term.

Bill Tucker reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BILL TUCKER, CNN FINANCIAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): President Bush wasted no time declaring education one of his top priorities for his second term.

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We'll make public schools all they can be.

TUCKER: Promising to work in a bipartisan spirit, the president seems to have already found new allies. The president of the National Education Association is extending an olive branch.

REG WEAVER, PRESIDENT, NATIONAL EDUCATION ASSOCIATION: I want to make sure that there is something that we can try to gather together on to reach some kind of common ground so that we can move forward to doing what is best for the young people of America.

TUCKER: The last public exchange between the NEA and the administration was less civil, with Education Secretary Rod Paige calling the NEA a terrorist organization.

Weaver's comments indicate a more constructive stance, but just exactly what the Bush administration will do to make schools all they can be is not clear.

BUSH: In a new term, we'll continue to make sure we do not weaken the accountability standards that are making a huge difference in people's lives, in these kids' lives.

TUCKER: Federal spending on education rose 36 percent in the president's first term. Given the size of the record budget deficit and Bush's other priority of Social Security reform, another such increase is unlikely. And despite its enormous controversy, educators are not arguing that No Child Left Behind be repealed, just fixed.

BRENDA WELBURN, NATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF STATE BOARDS OF EDUCATION: It appears that there will be a continued focus on reading and literacy, a focus on high school reform for all students and some mid-course correction on No Child Left Behind to address issues around children whose first language isn't English and special education students.

TUCKER: And educators are saying to look for legislation to be introduced perhaps this winter reviving the idea of vouchers for private schools.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

TUCKER: Now a voucher system was originally included in the No Child Left Behind Act, but was written out in a compromise. Proponents, however, want to see them make a comeback because, Lou, for whatever reason, they don't want to see their kids in public schools.

DOBBS: Well, that's a shame because the voucher systems, magnet systems, charters -- and many of them have been very successful, but they're all ways in which to either ignore or deflect the fact we're not in control of these public schools and we're not giving them the support they need.

TUCKER: And detract funding away from public schools.

DOBBS: Absolutely.

Thank you very much.

Bill Tucker.

And it's great see Reg Weaver actually -- the head of the NEA -- I mean, if we could see two men like Reg Weaver and Rod Paige come together and be constructive, that would be pretty positive for all of us.

Thank you very much, Bill Tucker.

Tonight's thought is on education, and the budget makers in Washington might consider these words expressed long ago.

"The school is the last expenditure upon which America should be willing to economize."

Those the words of Franklin D. Roosevelt.

Coming up next here, why two members of the Bush administration are in Mexico tonight. They're there pushing for legal status for millions of illegal aliens in this country. We'll have that story on a policy not yet formed, but apparently already under way.

Also, Senator Arlen Specter will join me. He's ready to fight for the chairmanship of the Judiciary Committee. I'll talk with Senator Specter about his chances of winning that fights, his thoughts about the future makeup of the U.S. Supreme Court.

In fighting back against efforts to crack down on illegal aliens in this country, Phoenix Mayor Phil Gordon is among those leading perhaps a fight to blunt the will of the people. He'll be here to tell us about the policies of the City of Phoenix and Proposition 200.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ANNOUNCER: LOU DOBBS TONIGHT continues. Here now for more news, debate and opinion, Lou Dobbs.

DOBBS: In just a moment, I'll be talking with Senator Arlen Specter, but, first, let's take a look at some of the top stories now in the news.

In the Scott Peterson double murder trial, they're down to four alternates after replacing juror number seven today. That jury has been deliberating since last Wednesday, they've been empaneled almost six months, and now they begin deliberations all over again. No immediate reason given for dismissing the juror.

Police in Richardson, Texas, releasing incredible pictures today of a car chase and gun battle with three suspected bank robbers. One police officer was wounded during the chase. The suspects were able to escape. But one suspect later turned himself in to authorities.

In Los Angeles, a dramatic rescue during a hostage situation outside the Mexican consulate. Police shot a man as he tried to kidnap a woman. The man tonight is reported in critical condition.

Top Palestinian aides say Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat has suffered a brain hemorrhage. That word hours after French hospital officials said Arafat had slipped into a deeper coma. Arafat was hospitalized in Paris last month with an undisclosed condition.

Turning now to politics in this country, social conservative groups have claimed much of the credit for President Bush's decisive reelection. Now, they say they have high expectations for his next four years.

Lisa Sylvester reports from Washington.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

LISA SYLVESTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Top political adviser Karl Rove gave conservative groups what they were looking for this week, a promise to champion a federal constitutional amendment banning gay marriage. Eleven states passed similar amendments last week. In exit polls in about 1 in 5 voters ranked moral values as the most important issue in the election.

PETER SPRIGG, FAMILY RESEARCH COUNCIL: I think we see an overwhelming consensus in favor of defining marriage as the union of one man and one woman. It's clear that's a vast majority of Americans believe that.

SYLVESTER: But changing the constitution would require the support of two-thirds of both the Senate and the House, and the legislatures in three quarters of the states. Congress already failed once this year to pass a gay ban amendment.

PAUL ROTHSTEIN, GEORGETOWN UNIV. LAW PROFESSOR: It is extremely difficult to amend the Constitution, and it is a matter of a great moment. And even people who are very much in favor of a cause that would be expressed by an amendment very frequently are reluctant to undergo the rigors of this rigorous process.

SYLVESTER: But conservatives are emboldened by the election results. They also plan to push a pro-life bill that focuses on fetal pain, strengthen a ban on partial birth abortion, and fight for pro- life Supreme Court nominees. Liberal groups say they are confident the public will not back a dramatic swing to the right.

CHERYL JACQUES, HUMAN RIGHTS CAMPAIGN: What I don't think they want is this country to be run by one particular religious dogma, and I think there is a danger of that happening. And I think the American people will -- will swing back against that and say no, that's not what we meant at all.

SYLVESTER: For now, conservatives have the upper hand, Republican majorities in the House and the Senate, and a president who knows who helped push him over the top.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SYLVESTER: In the next four years, as many as three U.S. Supreme Court Justices may leave, dramatically shifting the make up of the high court -- Lou.

DOBBS: Lisa Sylvester, thank you.

My next guest created a political firestorm last week when he said President Bush should be mindful the Democrats can still filibuster judicial nominees. That firestorm continues this week.

Senator Arlen Specter denies that he intended to warn President Bush about nominating conservative judges and said his comment was simply misreported. Senator Specter joins me tonight from Washington, D.C.

Senator, good to have you with us.

SEN. ARLEN SPECTER (R), PENNSYLVANIA: Thank you for the invitation. Glad to be here.

DOBBS: The White House press secretary Scott McClellan today did not exactly become effusive in expressing the president's support for your chairmanship. Are you confident that that chairmanship is yours, the chairmanship of the Judiciary Committee?

SPECTER: I don't believe in expressing confidence. My approach is to work hard, leave no stone unturned, and not count my chickens until -- until they're hatched. But when you deal with the issue of my position, I have never had a litmus test. I have voted for Supreme Court nominees who have been pro-life, see Justice Rehnquist, Justice Scalia. I led the fight to confirm Justice Clarence Thomas. So there's no question about my deeds as well as my words in not having a single-issue litmus test.

DOBBS: So, therefore, any potential nominee expressing opposition of Roe versus Wade, would, if voted out by the committee, you would have no problem with that?

SPECTER: I would not make my decision on any Supreme Court nominee or any judicial nominee based on a single issue. That has been my position consistently for two decades.

DOBBS: And Senator, what is the feedback you're getting from colleagues? The response, your sense of the will of your colleagues in the Senate and the reaction of the White House?

SPECTER: Well, once I lay the facts on the line, a lot of the concern disappears. I'm a believer in the facts. When you deal with two basic facts, number one that I have supported President Bush's nominees in the committee, and on the Senate floor and 17 times went to the floor to argue against the Democrats' filibusters. And secondly that I have a long record of having supported pro-life nominees in the Supreme Court, because I don't believe in a single- issue candidacy. And you have the statement by Karl Rove on the weekend that I'm a man of my word and they'll take me at my word. Nobody's ever doubted my integrity.

DOBBS: And yet you say the press misreported your comments last week.

How so?

SPECTER: What is that, my...

DOBBS: You said last week that the press misreported your statements, that set off this firestorm. How so?

SPECTER: Well, I simply didn't warn the president. Fox had a commentary that they'd examined the transcript very closely, and that some reporter was looking for a headline, and quoted me as saying things that I didn't say. I didn't warn the president. Rush Limbaugh made a comment that it was the media again putting words in my mouth. So you have people who have looked at the tape, and I'm glad to provide a transcript to the tape to anybody who wants to see it. I said that there could be a problem with confirmations in light of Democratic filibusters, that's a political fact of life. And that's not a warning to anyone about anything.

DOBBS: No, and as you say, it sounds like a straightforward statement of the facts as we know them in Washington, D.C.

Senator Arlen Specter, we thank you for being with us here.

SPECTER: Glad to be with you, thank you.

DOBBS: Tomorrow we'll have much more on what to expect over the next four years of the Bush administration as we continue our look at the Bush agenda for the next four years. South Dakota Senator-elect John Thune who defected Senator Minority Leader Tom Daschle will join me. I'll also be joined by "Vanity Fair" columnist Christopher Hitchens with a few thoughts that he has on both the state of the body politic and the prospects for this administration.

Secretary of State Colin Powell today said giving legal status to millions of illegal aliens in this country is a high priority for President Bush. Secretary Powell and Homeland Security Secretary Tom Ridge are in Mexico meeting with Mexican officials who are urging them to give more rights to Mexicans living in this country illegally.

Casey Wian reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): U.S. Homeland Security Secretary Tom Ridge and Mexican Interior Minister Santiago Creel stood under a portrait of Benito Juarez, the man who liberated Mexico from the French. Ridge and Creel spoke of their plans to liberate up to six million illegal aliens from U.S. immigration law. Their first priority, President Bush's proposed temporary worker program.

TOM RIDGE, HOMELAND SECURITY SECRETARY: I think it's just important to reiterate that when the president spoke about a very specific approach to deal with -- to address the problem of so many illegal immigrants from Mexico and other places who while crossing our borders illegally work, contribute to our vitality of businesses in our economic way of life.

WIAN: There was no mention of the economic costs of illegal aliens from government services to lower wages.

SANTIAGO CREEL, MEXICAN INTERIOR MINISTER (through translator): We would like to guarantee that our citizens who work on the other side of the border without documents that there could be some plan that permits them to work legally, and that their human rights and labor rights are guaranteed.

WIAN: Creel has been the Mexican government's most strident critic of U.S. immigration policy. Just last week calling it absurd. Today he complained about the U.S. Border Patrol's use of nonlethal air rifles that shoot pepper spray ammunition. Officials of both administrations spoke of their efforts to improve security and the free flow of legal traffic across the worlds busiest land border. Apparently the last remaining hurdle is the U.S. Congress.

COLIN POWELL, SECRETARY OF STATE: We will make an assessment with the new Congress, the pace at which we can proceed with temporary worker programs. And how fast and how far we can move in what period of time.

WIAN: President Bush's immigration reform plan will be a year old by the time Congress takes up the issue in January.

(on camera): Both governments are counting on the fact that 2005 will not be an election year. Their agendas would have not been likely to pass this year, because most voters don't approve of legal status for illegal aliens.

Casey Wian, CNN, Los Angeles.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

DOBBS: That brings us to the subject of our poll tonight. The question is do you agree with Secretary of State Colin Powell, that millions of illegal aliens in this country should be given legal status, yes or no? Cast you vote at cnn.com/lou. We'll have the results later in the broadcast.

Voters in Arizona voted overwhelmingly in favor of Proposition 200, that initiative cuts off state benefits for illegal aliens and prevents them from voting. Tomorrow the Phoenix City counsel will vote to protect city employees who might be sued for providing a public benefit to an illegal alien, once proposition 200 does become law. The mayor of Phoenix, Phil Gordon, opposed proposition 200. He believes it's the responsibility of the federal government to secure our borders. And Mayor Gordon joins me tonight from Phoenix.

Mayor, good to have you with us.

MAYOR PHIL GORDON, PHOENIX: Thank you very much, Lou.

DOBBS: This is a hotly contested issue in the state of Arizona, many other states in this country, certainly all of the border states. What are you trying to accomplish with this initiative in the city council?

GORDON: Well, first and foremost, let me say that the city will follow the law. The problem is, we don't know what that law means. It was so poorly drafted. And the way it's written is that a city employee can be sued by anybody in the state, and criminally liable. That chills our government from moving forward until the courts decide what this law means, and how to define it. So that what we're going to do tomorrow is indemnify any city employee that's sued under this law, provided the city employee is within the scope of his or her employment, and secondly, is following the policy of the city, which is to implement the law as best as we can.

DOBBS: To implement the law as best you can, you are already on the record in opposing it, as is the Arizona delegation. The governor of your state, yet your state...

GORDON: Senator McCain and others.

DOBBS: You're right. Now, that's terrific, except the people of Arizona have voted through referendum to put this forward. You say it's worded poorly. All of the constitutional experts and initiative experts who've weighed in on this said that it was balanced, that there was nothing that would suggest it would be in any way in the same difficulty as Proposition 187 found itself in California some years ago.

GORDON: Well, Lou, again, let me emphasize, the city is not trying to stop the will of the voters. We'll follow the law. The reason I opposed it was, it was poorly written. It will require courts to rule on this for years, and the attorneys are the ones that are going to be the winners. The citizens of Arizona will be the losers.

Having said that, we don't know what welfare benefits, what public benefits are. People are arguing today, as we speak, those same constitutional experts are in the paper having difference of opinions. All we're asking is we want the courts to tell us how to implement that law. That's number one.

Number two, we don't want our employees, 14,000 hard-working police officers, firefighters being sued for following what we believe the law is. We're going to try to interpret that. But there are so many questions, Lou, that we don't know what to do.

DOBBS: Well, you do have a counsel there in the city government, don't you, Mayor?

GORDON: Yes.

DOBBS: What does he say, or she?

GORDON: Well, our attorney actually is saying exactly what I'm saying. Is that, number one, there are two questions. How do we implement election law in terms of proving one's residency? That's not done. And then two is, what is a benefit? Is it a library card? Is it a welfare benefit? Is it going to a park? Is it some of these...

DOBBS: How about any benefit rendered by a government agency in the state of Arizona? Wouldn't that cover it?

GORDON: Well, Lou, first of all, the question is, what is a benefit? Is it those that are paid for, or given free? But let me take your point...

DOBBS: Mayor, take one more point instead. Let me ask you this. Why isn't there so much -- why isn't there as much concern about the word "illegal" -- illegal, in the state of Arizona?

GORDON: Lou, that's our point. My point has always been the federal government has got to do something about illegal immigration. I've said it, we've said it before. We're a border state and a border city that's getting hurt by this.

(CROSSTALK)

GORDON: ... nothing to do about that.

DOBBS: I guess what I'm -- I guess what I'm saying, Mayor, is that to me, surely you get irony. You appreciate the irony of your state's governor, you as the mayor of the city's largest, most distinguished city, the delegation of the state of Arizona, including Senator John McCain, sort of worrying over this proposition, yet each of those people has had an opportunity for now over a decade in nearly all cases to do something about it, and yet they're clucking over Proposition 200. Don't you find that extraordinarily ironic?

GORDON: Well, again, I can't speak for the delegation or any of the congressmen or senators throughout the country.

I can speak as the mayor of Phoenix. Is, number one, immigration is not a local issue. The city of Phoenix can't regulate immigration for the country or for the state.

But, Lou, let me go back to the point that you made, is let's define it your way. I want to make the point of why we as a city are concerned. That all benefits -- the problem is, there are many individuals that are arguing it's only certain benefits. They can sue our city employees under this law, which means it wipes out our city employees' accounts by following your advice, which let's say we all agree with. All we're asking is the court, please define what it is so that our employees won't be sued. And I want to protect our employees to do the right thing. All we're asking is, tell us what it is.

DOBBS: Yeah, and I'm sure as well, want to protect the citizens of the great city of Phoenix. Have you all considered maybe suing the federal government for not enforcing the immigration laws?

GORDON: No. That, you know...

DOBBS: I'm just curious.

GORDON: Yeah, no. What we have asked is that the -- and I have said it, you know what, come up with an immigration law that's enforceable and works. Whatever it is, that's what we'll support. But that's a national issue, and it has to get done.

DOBBS: Mayor, we thank you very much. Mayor Phil Gordon.

GORDON: Thank you.

DOBBS: Come back soon.

GORDON: Come on to Phoenix. It's a great city.

DOBBS: We'll be there, thank you.

Still ahead, the future of the U.S. Supreme Court. How aging justices and a new term for President Bush will affect our nation's highest court. The editor of a new book on Justice Scalia, Kevin Ring joins me.

And exporting America. Why companies that ship American jobs overseas are celebrating President Bush's reelection. All of that and a great deal more. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: Over the next four years, the president could have the opportunity to appoint a number of Supreme Court justices. Those appointments could affect, of course, decisions on a number of sensitive, even historic issues, from abortion rights to a ban on gay marriage.

Kevin Ring is the author of the new book, "Scalia Dissents: Writings of the Supreme Court's Wittiest, Most Outspoken Justice." Ring is also an attorney and former counsel to the Senate Constitution Subcommittee, joining us here in New York.

Thanks for writing a terrific book on a fellow who -- you couldn't be more timely, could you?

KEVIN RING, AUTHOR, "SCALIA DISSENTS": No, this worked out pretty well.

DOBBS: Arlen Specter, let's just start, the Judiciary Committee is going to have to bring these people out as they're nominated by the president. Do you expect him to begin with just the list that has already been tried and true, tested and true? RING: Well, I think that may be the case for the circuit courts appointments, but I think if Chief Justice Rehnquist's health doesn't improve and he does have to step down, then I think the names that have been floated already are...

DOBBS: Clarence Thomas.

RING: Clarence Thomas.

DOBBS: Justice Scalia.

RING: Justice Scalia. And I think it's likely that he may promote from within.

DOBBS: And which do you think has the best chance?

RING: I think Justice Scalia has the best chance.

DOBBS: That's why I asked.

RING: I didn't write "Thomas Dissents." And I think that's because he's been on the court longer, he's more seasoned. He's an intellectual leader on the court. And I think his philosophy is one that really captures the president's.

DOBBS: You didn't write, as you say, "Thomas Dissents," but the fact is, he is considered conservative. Do you find him capable and ready for that position, should the president so decide?

RING: Oh, I think absolutely. I think it would be a historic pick. He would be the first black chief justice, and he's absolutely qualified.

DOBBS: Sandra Day O'Connor.

RING: Yes.

DOBBS: Is a swing voter. Justice Kennedy. What do you expect in the course of her term?

RING: I suspect she may retire as well during the next four years. I think Kennedy will stay on. I don't think either one is a likely choice to take over as chief justice.

DOBBS: I don't think I have heard at any time, and for obvious reasons it is now, so much speculation about the type of justice that will be moving forward, since Robert Bork. Do you expect the president to stay with conservative nominees that will stick to, if you will, a strict constructionist tone?

RING: I think that's the case. I think that's in his record, at least with his court appointments to this point for the lower courts. And I suspect that'll be the case, especially after that last election, where moral values were a number one motivator for voters. I think he's going to want judges who are not necessarily conservative or liberal, but are going to have a philosophy that allows those decisions to be decided democratically and not by the court.

DOBBS: Do you think it is appropriate for the Judiciary Committee to examine carefully our nominees' positions on Roe v. Wade? Gay marriage?

RING: Yes. I think -- I think -- not specific decisions necessarily, but I think, one, they're supposed to test competence. And two, whether they have a philosophy that fits within the mainstream of sort of judicial thought, and I think Clarence Thomas and Antonin Scalia both obviously fit that. They have served well on the court for over a decade.

DOBBS: Do you think there is any prospect that over the course of the years ahead, if the court does make a greater move to the conservative side, that Roe v. Wade could be in jeopardy?

RING: I think there's a chance. I think that's probably far off. And in fact, losing Chief Justice Rehnquist, if he decides to retire, I mean, replacing him with Scalia or Thomas doesn't shift the balance of the court at all. So you'd have to lose a few of the other justices, and even then it's not clear whether you're going to have a conservative who will overturn a 30-year precedent. So it's not clear at this point.

But again, even overturning Roe v. Wade will just turn things back to the states.

DOBBS: "Scalia Dissents." Thanks for being here.

RING: Thanks for having me.

DOBBS: Take care. Good luck with the book.

RING: Thanks.

DOBBS: Still ahead, outsourcers delight. Why President Bush's reelection could also be a victory for corporations that ship American jobs overseas to those cheap labor markets. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: We've reported here on the loss of hundreds of thousands of American jobs to cheap foreign labor markets for the past two years. That loss of jobs is now accelerating. With the reelection of President Bush, Indian outsourcing companies in particular are screaming and are thrilled. Their CEOs say President Bush, in their view, will do absolutely nothing to slow the pace of outsourcing. Christine Romans is here now with the story -- Christine.

CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, the biggest outsourcing companies are thrilled because they see the president's election as giving them a green light to drive even more American jobs to cheap overseas labor markets.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) MICHAEL GILDEA, AFL-CIO: Christmas came early to India. It's clear that the outsourcing of American jobs are going to continue apace, and there's no end in sight.

ROMANS (voice-over): Bush's reelection so delighted the Indian Information Technology Trade Group, it issued a statement loading the president's outsourcing track record. Confident, it said, that "with George Bush getting reelected, the growth momentum in outsourcing will continue." Companies like Infosys, Wipro, Cognizant, are counting dozens of new American customers each quarter, and betting on revenue growth unfettered by Washington.

CARL GUARDINO, PRESIDENT, SILICON VALLEY MFG. GROUP: We have to recognize that we're in a competition. So will companies continue to place jobs in facilities around the world to serve those markets and to compete globally? Absolutely.

ROMANS: Some see permissive policies on outsourcing as part of a larger Bush agenda to further liberalize trade policy.

DANIEL GRISWOLD, CATO INSTITUTE: We're going to see a continued expansion of America's trade with the rest of the world, with outsourcing just being one facet.

ROMANS: The other facets that Griswold does not mention include a rising record trade deficit, estimated to be $600 billion this year, and an almost $4 trillion trade debt.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ROMANS: And, Lou, the Indian outsourcers go a little further. Their trade group hopes the Bush administration will also ease visa restrictions so that Indian workers can come to this country to work those jobs that haven't been exported to India.

DOBBS: We wouldn't want anyone to have to go to any difficulty to take away an American job, would we?

ROMANS: No, not at all, I guess.

DOBBS: The fact of the matter is, 28 consecutive years of trade deficits, it looks like somebody may get an opportunity to review this, though, because with the dollar declining, deficits skyrocketing, we'll just have to see, as they say.

Thank you very much, Christine. Christine Romans.

Still ahead here, the results of tonight's poll and a preview of what's ahead tomorrow. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: And the results of our poll tonight are: 17 percent of you agree with Secretary of State Colin Powell that millions of illegal aliens in this country should be given legal status; 83 percent do not agree with the secretary. Thanks for being with us here tonight. Please join us tomorrow as we continue our week-long series on the Bush agenda. Tomorrow, we focus on immigration policy, and I'll be joined by Senator-elect John Thune, on defeating the Senate's top Democrat, and the role of bipartisanship in the next four years. For all of us here, thanks for being with us. Good night from New York. "ANDERSON COOPER 360" is next.

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