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Lou Dobbs Tonight
Congress Fails to Pass Intelligence Reform; Tax Snooping Clause Hidden in Appropriations Bill
Aired November 22, 2004 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LOU DOBBS, HOST: Tonight, what in the world is Congress thinking? The entire Intelligence Reform Bill blown up because the Senate wants illegal aliens to have driver's licenses.
REP. JIM SENSENBRENNER (R-WI), CHAIRMAN, HOUSE JUDICIARY COMMITTEE: I don't like to vote for things on serious issues that might look good on a bumper sticker.
DOBBS: House Judiciary Committee Chairman Jim Sensenbrenner led the fight to include recommendations of the September 11 Commission to prevent illegal aliens from obtaining driver's licenses.
Congressman Sensenbrenner and House Intelligence Committee chairman Pete Hoekstra will be here to talk about why the negotiations failed and why Congress is refusing to protect the American people.
And I'll talk with Peter Gadiel, the president of the 9/11 Families for a Secure America. He lost his 23-year-old son on September 11.
President Bush says he'll push ahead with plans to legalize millions of illegal aliens. Could it be President Fox and President Bush consider our southern border an inconvenience?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: One out of every ten Mexicans lives in the United States.
DOBBS: And how should we reform our intelligence community? Do congressional reforms go far enough, or are they misguided? I'll be talking with Admiral Bobby Inman, former director of the National Security Agency, and former deputy director of the CIA.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT for Monday, November 22. Here now for an hour of news, debate and opinion is Lou Dobbs.
DOBBS: Good evening.
Tonight, anger and defiance on Capitol Hill after Congress failed to pass a sweeping Intelligence Reform Bill. One of the main reasons: Congress' refusal to support a measure to bar illegal aliens from obtaining driver's licenses. Congress tonight also faces tough questions about the way in which it handled the massive new spending bill. An unelected House aide almost added a measure that would have allowed lawmakers to inspect the tax returns of every American. That measure was ultimately blocked by the Senate at the last minute.
Tonight, Ed Henry reports on the battle over the Intelligence Reform Bill. Lisa Sylvester reports on the spending bill controversy. And Casey Wian reports on a battle still building, President Bush's proposals to give illegal aliens the right to live and work in this country.
We begin with Ed Henry -- Ed.
ED HENRY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good evening, Lou.
Vice President Cheney came up to the capitol today, huddled behind closed doors with Congressman James Sensenbrenner, trying to break this log jam on 9/11 reform, but that meeting ended, and there was yet another stalemate.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
HENRY (voice-over): Congressman James Sensenbrenner, one of two Republicans to hold up the intelligence bill, says he's more determined than ever to block what he considers meaningless reform.
SENSENBRENNER: Well, I'm not going to cave.
HENRY: Sensenbrenner wants to ban states from giving driver's licenses to illegal immigrants. He says Senate negotiators are too scared to challenge powerful lobbyists who oppose the provision.
SENSENBRENNER: I don't like to vote for things on serious issues that might look good on a bumper sticker, but which I know have so many loopholes that they won't work.
HENRY: Not even President Bush calling from Chile on Friday night could stop Sensenbrenner. Observers say it's up to the president to face down fellow Republicans.
JOHN LEHMAN (R), FORMER 9/11 COMMISSIONER: The president now has been challenged directly by the leadership of the -- of the Congress and by the lobbyists and by the bureaucracy. Now he's got to show who's in charge.
HENRY: The other Republican who refused to be rolled was Congressman Duncan Hunter. Despite a call from Vice President Cheney, Hunter insisted on protecting the Pentagon from losing power to a new director of national intelligence.
REP. DUNCAN HUNTER (R-CA), CHAIRMAN, ARMED SERVICES COMMITTEE: In my shop, having them maintaining the chain of command and -- and searching our people in uniform is paramount.
HENRY: Some believe the window of opportunity has closed. But top Republicans think they can salvage this after Thanksgiving.
SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL (R-KY), MAJORITY WHIP: The president's on the way back from South America, is going to lobby some more. I'm optimistic we're going to come back together December the 6th and 7th and pass this bill.
HENRY: Former 9/11 commissioners are warning of inaction.
TIM ROEMER (D), FORMER 9/11 COMMISSIONER: We saw intelligence failures, FBI mistakes, border patrol and visa problems leading up to 9/11, and we lost 3,000 people. How many more body bags are we going to need to see?
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HENRY: James Sensenbrenner fired back that the 9/11 commissioners should not be satisfied with doing just half the job. He says he wants reform with teeth, not just window dressing.
Sensenbrenner, in fact, points out that the -- the 19 hijackers were able to validly obtain 63 driver's licenses across the country. He says that's a problem he wants to fix. Sensenbrenner says he will stand on principle, even if it brings down the entire bill -- Lou.
DOBBS: Thank you very much, Ed Henry from Capitol Hill. And I'll be talking with Congressman Sensenbrenner in just a matter of moments.
Lawmakers tonight are also tackling the consequences of an astonishing attempt by a House staff aide to give Congress the right to inspect your tax returns.
Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist said he has no idea how that proposal was added to the spending bill. Not surprisingly, that raises considerable doubt about the entire legislative process operating on Capitol Hill now.
Lisa Sylvester reports from Washington.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LISA SYLVESTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Buried in the 14-pound spending bill on page 1102, section 222, was an item missed by House members but caught by Senate staffers, a provision that would have allowed the Senate and House appropriations committees to peek at anyone's confidential taxpayer returns.
SEN. KENT CONRAD (D), NORTH DAKOTA: This would have provided unfettered power to chairmen of the appropriations committees, now and in the future to assign agents, to go review people's tax returns, and to reveal them to the public without any civil or criminal penalty.
SYLVESTER: Congress had to roll the appropriations bills of 13 government departments into one mammoth legislation, because it failed to pass individual appropriations bills during the term, and the session was nearing an end. Lawmakers were outraged they were given a bill that they only had a few hours to read.
REP. BRIAN BAIRD (D), WASHINGTON: Something is wrong with our democracy, my friends.
PAUL LIGHT, BROOKINGS INSTITUTION: Congress has become sloppier over the last 20 years in terms of its legislating. It's become less disciplined. It's become more polarized. The way you get things done up there, given the intense partisan opposition, is to do this kind of legislating.
SYLVESTER: The bill also contained a lot of pork: $25,000 to fund a mariachi music program in Nevada; almost $5 million to stabilize bath houses in Arkansas; $1.5 million for the Congressman Richard Gephardt archives at the Missouri Historical Society; $1.4 million to upgrade the international airport in appropriations chairman Ted Stevens' district; and $225,000 for the National Wild Turkey Federation.
TOM SCHATZ, CITIZENS AGAINST GOVERNMENT WASTE: The taxpayers have nothing to be thankful for this Thanksgiving because of all the pork in the omnibus appropriations bill that Congress has just enacted.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SYLVESTER: House Republicans plan to delete the tax return provision in a special session on Wednesday. And the president is expected to sign the bill after the provision is removed -- Lou.
DOBBS: Lisa, thank you.
I am joined now by the congressman who blocked the House vote on the Intelligence Reform Bill over the issue of completing the recommendations of the 9/11 Commission.
Congressman James Sensenbrenner is chairman of the House Judiciary Committee. He is also a member of the homeland security committee and joins us tonight from Capitol Hill.
Congressman, thank you for being with us.
SENSENBRENNER: Good evening, Lou. Glad to be here.
DOBBS: Congressman, the idea -- I referred to -- I'd like to start with a quote. Senator Rockefeller, referring to you and to congressman Duncan Hunter, if we could put that up for our viewers to see.
"We've had, frankly, two obstructionists in the House. It's a matter of two individuals who are trying to stop it, the legislation to reform our intelligence community, for their own reasons. And it doesn't make sense." Senator Jay Rockefeller, the vice chairman of the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence.
Congressman, what's your reaction?
SENSENBRENNER: Congressman Hunter and I are trying to do it right. And it's better to do it right than to do it at a half-baked manner that ends up coming back and endangering the American people.
The 9/11 Commission itself recognized that there were problems in our driver's license system. The 19 hijackers got 63 validly issued driver's licenses. And you can bet they used them to get on the planes on September 11.
We need tough national standards to make sure that people don't game the system, and that includes denying driver's licenses to illegal aliens who cannot prove their lawful presence in the United States.
DOBBS: Congressman, I think to most Americans, and if one looks at the most recent polling in this country, that makes absolute sense to most Americans. Yet you were described by, certainly, Senator Rockefeller and others in the Senate as an obstructionist.
Why in the world would it not have been just a matter of great ease on the part of all the conferees to agree that this country will not issue documents to illegal aliens and to move ahead with the reform legislation?
SENSENBRENNER: Because the Senate was stubborn. The House passed a comprehensive package of law enforcement and immigration reforms, not just on the driver's license issue, when the bill was passed in early October.
A conference committee was set up the second week of October. The senators refused to talk about the immigration and law-enforcement provisions in this bill until Tuesday of last week saying they were extraneous, they were too controversial, we ought to deal with them in separate legislations or study them.
DOBBS: Too controversial?
SENSENBRENNER: Yes.
DOBBS: Too controversial.
I understand the president, Congressman, called you Friday night trying to get you to change your position, that, in point of fact, you were willing to do that, so long as you were given other considerations. What were those other considerations?
SENSENBRENNER: The other considerations were tightening up the law so that terrorists who had gotten into this country and were identified by our intelligence agencies could be detained and deported before they executed a terrorist act.
And the president agreed that that was something that was necessary and was a legitimate tradeoff. He sent his chief legislative director in to talk to the senators, and they said no to that as well as no to denying illegal aliens driver's licenses. DOBBS: Why in the world would they not agree to that?
SENSENBRENNER: You'll have to ask them. But these are the same senators who have been bitterly attacking Congressman Hunter and myself for standing up for some common-sense reforms that are needed to close the loop.
What the senators are proposing to do is that we would have great intelligence, but, once we got the great intelligence, we wouldn't have the legal tools to use them to prevent terrorists from gaming our legal system and immigration laws to cover their potential terrorist attack in the country.
It's like fumbling the ball on the 10-yard line. Hunter and I want to get the ball across the goal line to do it right.
DOBBS: To do it right. You think it is absolutely a fact that with 19 hijackers of September 11 having acquired 63 illegal driver's licenses, it seems that that should be the first line of defense in any reform of the intelligence community and Homeland Security.
SENSENBRENNER: Well, Lou, you're wrong on one respect. Those 63 driver's licenses were all validly issued by state DMVs across the country, and one of the things we wanted in our standards was some kind of a database link so you couldn't get a driver's license in northern Virginia and then get another driver's license when you went across the bridge to a DMV in Maryland or in D.C.
DOBBS: Congressman Jim Sensenbrenner, I think I speak for a lot of people when I say thank you, sir.
SENSENBRENNER: You're welcome.
DOBBS: Later here, the chairman of the House Intelligence Committee, Congressman Pete Hoekstra, will join me to give us his perspective on the failure to pass the intelligence bill or perhaps, depending on your perspective, the success in not passing it.
I'll also be talking with former National Security Agency director and former deputy director of the CIA, Admiral Bobby Inman.
And I'll be joined by Peter Gadiel, the father of the victim of the September 11 attacks.
Still ahead, federal agents break up a massive fraud that gave thousands of illegal aliens documents, including driver's licenses. We'll have that report for you.
President Bush and Mexican President Fox want millions of illegal aliens in this country legalized. Both presidents apparently think our border is something of an inconvenience. We'll have that report for you coming up next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: As many as 15 million illegal aliens live and work in this country. Three million are coming to this country this year alone.
This weekend, President Bush told President Vicente Fox of Mexico that he wants to push ahead with his plans to give millions of those illegal aliens legal status in this country.
Casey Wian reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The preview was two weeks ago. Secretary of State Colin Powell and Homeland Security Secretary Tom Ridge visited their Mexican counterparts to discuss immigration reform.
The main feature came this weekend as President Bush reassured Mexican President Vicente Fox he remains committed to a guest-worker program that would allow millions of illegal aliens to stay in the United States.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I think a program that recognizes the desire of some to come to America to work and the desire of some in America to employ them makes sense.
It makes sense not only for our economy, but for border security. We'd much rather have security guards chasing down terrorists or drug runners or drug smugglers than people coming to work.
WIAN: Many lawmakers in the president's own party don't want to even consider legal status until the U.S. gains control of its border with Mexico. A half-dozen temporary worker proposals have failed to advance on Capitol Hill, and the president's plan remains short on details.
In an interview on CNN this weekend, Fox hinted at a deadline for an immigration deal of next fall. After that, he'll be busy with his own election campaign.
VICENTE FOX, PRESIDENT OF MEXICO: We are not after amnesty. We don't think that's what should be done now. It's basically to legalize the work that Mexicans are paying in United States with dignity, with productivity and making that economy more competitive.
WIAN: Fox did acknowledge a responsibility to improve Mexico's economy, which would lessen the desire of millions of his countrymen to flee.
STEVEN CAMAROTA, CENTER FOR IMMIGRATION STUDIES: There are now nearly 11 million people living in the United States who are from Mexico, dwarfing all other immigration. Right now, believe it or not, even though Mexico is a very big country, one out of every 10 Mexicans lives in the United States.
WIAN: The Center for Immigration Studies says nearly one in every three U.S. immigrants are now Mexican. In 1980, Mexicans represented about one in every six of the U.S. foreign born.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
WIAN: Vicente Fox says he plans to meet with President Bush in Washington this spring. They'll again discuss immigration reform, after what Fox calls him doing a little more homework on the issue -- Lou.
DOBBS: Casey, thank you very much.
Casey Wian reporting live from Los Angeles.
The Justice Department today said it has arrested more than two dozen people who were helping illegal aliens obtain fake identification, other documents. That case involves thousands of illegal aliens from Indonesia.
Jeanne Meserve reports from Washington -- Jeanne.
JEANNE MESERVE, CNN HOMELAND SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Lou, it was lucrative work, netting millions of dollars. It was also against the law.
The 26 people charged today helped literally thousands of illegal immigrants, most from Indonesia, obtain false documentation, including fake driver's licenses, birth certificates, passports, Social Security cards and asylum applications.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PAUL MCNULTY, U.S. ATTORNEY: The defendants routinely charged $2,000 or more to create fraudulent asylum applications. The applications typically contained false claims, stating that the applicant had been raped, sexually assaulted, beaten or robbed by Muslims in Indonesia due to their Chinese ethnicity or Christian faith.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MESERVE: Prosecutors allege illegal immigrants were coached to cry and plead to exploit the perceived anti-Muslim sympathies of asylum officers and immigration judges.
The four immigration brokers and consultants in the ring were in northern Virginia and Maryland, but had plants all over the country, running one of the biggest document fraud organizations in the nation, according to law enforcement.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MCNULTY: ... that there is no known terrorism connection in this case. But we are all aware that the terrorists exploit document identification systems as they attempt to integrate themselves into our communities.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MESERVE: Aware because seven of the 19 September 11 hijackers used identification from illegal operations like this one. Although some states, including Virginia, have closed loopholes and made the work of such rings more difficult, U.S. Attorney McNulty says the easy money makes it an attractive pursuit and a potentially dangerous one for the country -- Lou.
DOBBS: Jeanne, thank you.
Coming up next here, free trade giveaway. The White House didn't want to talk free trade before the election. Neither did Congress. Now they hope to pass another free trade deal south of the border quickly and, of course, quietly. Some in Congress are promising a fight. We'll have that special report.
And then, the intelligence reform bill all but dead. House Intelligence Committee Chairman Pete Hoekstra will join me with his assessment.
And we'll have all of that and more still ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: The Central American Free Trade Agreement is the most important item on the president's free trade agenda. It is also, however, one of the most controversial. So controversial, in fact, the White House chose to put it off for consideration on Capitol Hill and for signature until after the election. Lawmakers now are sharply divided on CAFTA.
Kitty Pilgrim reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KITTY PILGRIM, CNN BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It was signed last May, but in no way sealed, and delivery is uncertain. The Central American Free Trade Agreement faces an uphill fight in Congress.
REP. SANDER LEVIN (D), MICHIGAN: There are international standards, child labor, the right of workers to be represented, and essentially what this agreement does is to thumb its nose at those standards.
PILGRIM: It was one of the issues in the in-box for President Bush after the election. Some even thought it would be put forward during the lame-duck session, and now, even with broad gains for Republicans, the issue is not a sure passage.
CAFTA countries are already a market worth more than $9 billion for U.S. exporters, the second largest market in Latin America outside Mexico. The objections are weak labor provisions. The U.S. textile and sugar industries fear the agreement will damage their industry.
SARAH ANDERSON, INSTITUTE FOR POLICY STUDIES: Trade is one issue where there is still drama, even with a Republican-held White House and even greater Republican control of Congress. It's so interesting in that it is this nonpartisan issue that makes for such a tough fight.
PILGRIM: The hope is it will generate jobs, but that is by no means assured.
SARAH THORN, GROCERY MANUFACTURERS OF AMERICA: We have to be more competitive, certainly retain jobs in the United States. Right now, we're having a massive exodus of candy jobs because of the high price of sugar. If we can get more sugar in and we can remain competitive, hopefully, we can keep the jobs here.
PILGRIM: The Bush administration says CAFTA will open markets.
CHRISTOPHER PADILLA, OFFICE OF U.S. TRADE REPRESENTATIVE: It's easy to trade into America. Our goal is to make it easy for us to trade our goods and services in other countries, too. That's what the president's trade agenda is about, and we've got a very ambitious program for the next four years.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: Well, passing CAFTA is the first part of that trade agenda for the next four years. The administration now says it hopes to get it done in the first half of 2005, but critics say heated debate in Congress that started the year may slow that progress -- Lou.
DOBBS: Kitty, thank you very much.
Still ahead here tonight, the intelligence reform bill all but dead. House Intelligence Committee Chairman Pete Hoekstra joins me.
And Peter Gadiel, president of 9/11 Families for a Secure America, is my guest.
Reinventing the CIA. Should we, and how should we? Former CIA deputy director, National Security Agency director, Admiral Bobby Inman joins me to talk about the battle over intelligence reform and the form that reform should take.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ANNOUNCER: LOU DOBBS TONIGHT continues. Here now for more news, debate and opinion, Lou Dobbs.
DOBBS: In a moment, I'll be talking with the chairman of the House Intelligence Committee, Congressman Pete Hoekstra, about Congress' failure to pass sweeping intelligence reform.
But, first, taking a look at some of the top stories tonight.
Authorities say a man suspected of killing five hunters and wounding three others in Wisconsin intruded on private property. The man was arrested yesterday. The shooting sparked by a dispute over a deer stand, an elevated spot used by hunters.
Another investigation is underway tonight into the crash of a private jet on its way to pick up former President George H.W. Bush. All three people on board were killed. The jet clipped a light pole near the Hobby Airport in Houston. The former president was scheduled to travel to Ecuador. Those plans have been canceled.
U.S. officials tonight are trying to determine how a Moroccan man on this country's no-fly list was able to board an Air France jet liner from Paris to Washington, D.C. The flight, once it was discovered he was aboard, was diverted to Bangor, Maine. The Moroccan man and another man traveling with him were taken to Boston for questioning.
Returning to our top story tonight, the massive bill designed to reform U.S. intelligence following the September 11 attacks stalled in Congress. One reason: Congress refused to support a measure that would prevent illegal aliens that obtaining driver's licenses.
My guest tonight helped negotiate the combined House and Senate versions of this bill. Congressman Pete Hoekstra is the chairman of the House Intelligence Committee, and he joins us tonight from Michigan.
Congressman, good to have you with us.
REP. PETER HOEKSTRA (R-MI), CHAIRMAN, INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEE: Well, thank you, Lou. Good to be with you.
DOBBS: I know you put in a lot of hours on this, a lot of days. At the end, Senator Rockefeller referred to Congressman Sensenbrenner as an obstructionist, Congressman Duncan Hunter as an obstructionist. What is, in your judgment, the truth?
HOEKSTRA: Well, these are both two very qualified chairmen in the House of Representatives. They've brought up legitimate issues. Jim Sensenbrenner is passionate about immigration reform and the need for more border security and immigration reform if we are truly to be secure.
I agree with that position. We just can't -- weren't able to get it done in this bill. I disagree with Congressman Hunter that the intelligence reform bill that we are putting forward will jeopardize the safety of American troops. Having a 21st century intel community will help our troops, will secure our nation -- will secure our nation, it needs to be passed now.
DOBBS: Let me read to you a quote from Senate Intelligence Committee Chairman Pat Roberts. Senator Roberts said, "There's been a lot of opposition to this from the first. Some of it from the Pentagon, some of it, quite frankly, from the White House." Really? In your opinion, that's true?
HOEKSTRA: Well, there may have been hesitancy from various folks within the executive branch, but I can tell you that for the last two to three months, after the Senate passed their version of intelligence reform, with the help of the white house, after the house passed its version of intelligence reform with the help of the White House, after the House passed its version of intelligence reform with the help of the White House the White House has been fully involved in the process, working out this conference report. I think the president is going to continue the work that he has done, and he's going to press hard over the next two weeks to try to get this up for a vote on December 6th so that this 25th attempt to reform intelligence in the last 47 years, that finally after 25 attempts, we will get it done.
DOBBS: Congressman, let me ask you this. We just -- Jeanne Meserve just reported on the massive fraud -- document fraud bust. The U.S. attorney saying point blank that fraudulent documents certainly exploited by terrorists, why in the world -- it should not, it seems to most people, I would think, seem unreasonable that the United States or states should not be issuing driver's licenses to those who are here illegally. Why in the world could not the Senate agree to that rather straightforward, simple statement?
HOEKSTRA: Well, according to the Senate it was much more complex than that. You know, they'll have to explain to you exactly why they couldn't agree to Congressman Sensenbrenner's position on this bill. You know, in the House bill, we dealt with law enforcement. We dealt with immigration. We dealt with foreign policy. On the Senate side, the only thing that was dealt with was intelligence community reform. They felt uncomfortable taking these issues and putting it part of their bill and putting it a part of the conference report.
DOBBS: Congressman, we thank you very much for being with us. Is it your judgment that you will be successful before the new Congress in getting some sort of compromise reform legislation?
HOEKSTRA: Well, I sure hope so. I was listening to your comments before. You said it was all but dead. I think we've got a little bit more life in the product than that. I think there's going to be a full debate over the next two weeks. I think we've got a real shot at getting this done yet.
DOBBS: Mr. Chairman, thanks for being with us, Congressman Pete Hoekstra, thank you, joining us tonight from Michigan.
HOEKSTRA: Thank you.
DOBBS: Bringing us to the subject of our poll tonight, do you believe that Congress should make reform of its legislative process itself a priority? Yes or no? Cast your vote at loudobbs.com. We'll bring you the results later here in the broadcast.
My next guest says that immigration reforms are a critical part of intelligence reform. Peter Gadiel is the president of 9/11 Families for a Secure America. His son, James, was killed in the World Trade Center on September 11th. Peter Gadiel believes that if our national immigration laws had been fully enforced before September 11th, his son and many others would still be alive today. Good to have you with us.
PETER GADIEL, 9/11 FAMILIES FOR A SECURE AMERICA: Thank you for having me.
DOBBS: The statement, Congressman Sensenbrenner pointing out, 19 hijackers held 63 valid driver's licenses. What is your reaction when you hear that Jim Sensenbrenner was the primary person to stand up and say, as a matter of first line of defense, we've got to be able to stop giving valid driver's licenses to people who are here illegally.
GADIEL: People like Senator Collins and Lieberman and Roberts and Congressman Harman have been piling on him and criticizing him. But for the people of my group, 9/11 Families for a Secure America, he's a hero. He's able to take this absurd, false, phony criticism and fight back and make the point that driver's licenses are first and last line of defense.
DOBBS: It is a remarkable period. Do you understand -- you've been talking with these congressmen, these senators. I have not been able to get from any one of them who is opposed to banning these driver's licenses a solid, intelligent national security answer as to why they would be against it.
GADIEL: Well, if you go into Senator Lieberman's office, you'll hear the issue is complex. It's not complex. And for our members, the message we want to get across to the people of Connecticut, the people of California, Jane Harman's district and others, is that if you are in favor of the Collins/Lieberman/McCain bill, the Senate bill, then you are in favor of giving licenses to terrorists, it's that simple. Because if you support the Senate bill, then what you want to give is make licenses available to illegal aliens, an illegal alien is a person who's never been identified properly. And so any illegal alien can be a terrorist. We don't know who they are.
DOBBS: And Congressman Sensenbrenner also pointed out that the president agreed, as a matter of horse trading on this issue, to toughen the laws that would allow authorities to detain and deport terrorists.
GADIEL: Right.
DOBBS: And that was not agreed to by the Senate conferees.
GADIEL: The Senate conferees would not budge an inch from their original position. They're saying that the House didn't compromise. But, in fact, the House compromised a great deal to the point where, at the end, the only thing in terms of border security or driver's license reform was the driver's license provision. All the other border security measures had been bargained away by the House because of the refusal of the Senate, Collins, Lieberman, McCain, the rest of the crowd, Rockefeller, to compromise even an inch. And there's no interpretation available for their position other than that they want to keep the borders open because they want cheap labor in this country, and the people provide massive campaign contributions are continuing to fund their campaigns.
DOBBS: You said it that straightforward.
GADIEL: Straightforward. Senator Roberts, over one-third of $1 million of campaign dollars, from agribusiness alone in the last few years. Agribusiness, a major user of cheap, illegal labor. Senator Roberts, you don't want closed borders? We do. We consider our children's lives and the future of this country much more important than your contributions from agribusiness.
DOBBS: Congressman Duncan Hunter, Chairman of the House Armed Forces Committee, saying this legislation should not pass because it takes away too much power from the Department of Defense intelligence. Do you agree with him on that?
GADIEL: I can't comment on the intelligence side. I mean, I've been working on border security and such things. And for me to say anything about the intelligence dispute would be talking through my hat.
DOBBS: Your position, the position of your group, the 9/11 Families for a Secure America, is that driver's licenses, we have to stop issuing them to illegal aliens, and that we have to have border security.
GADIEL: Border security. More people on the border, more internal enforcement, ban the use of matricular cards.
DOBBS: It sounds so straightforward, so simple, so primary, that if one cannot defend their borders, what defense is there?
GADIEL: Well, talk to Senator Rockefeller, he'll tell you the issue is complex. I'm sorry. I mean, General Franks said during the Iraq war that any nation that wants to can control its borders. The people in Congress do not want to control our borders. That's where the problem lies.
DOBBS: What should people who agree with you do?
GADIEL: Well, Election Day has passed. One of the worst members of the entire congress on this issue is senator McCain. He authored a provision in the Senate bill, that essentially invites states to go on giving licenses to terrorists, and he's just been elected by 70 percent of the vote. On the other hand, those very same people supported the PAN initiative which was a ...
DOBBS: Proposition 200.
GADIEL: Proposition 200, right. You know, vote them out of office. Get rid of Senator Rockefeller, get rid of Senator Lieberman. Vote for people who will support the borders and not just talk right about the issue, and then vote wrong, like Senator Lieberman. They always talk about how they want to control the borders, but when it comes to a vote, they won't do it.
DOBBS: Peter Gadiel, we thank you very much for being with us.
GADIEL: Thank you.
DOBBS: Still ahead here tonight, a critical time for our nation's intelligence gathering agencies, the intelligence reform legislation is stalled in the House and Senate and a high-level shake- up is under way at the same time at the CIA. I'll be talking with former director of the National Security Agency, deputy CIA director, Admiral Bobby Inman. And then, giving away trade. Why this country's exploding trade deficit with China is worsening, and what that means for a sinking dollar. And for you. And me. Next. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Well, few people doubt that our intelligence community needs to be reformed. But Congress' failure to pass sweeping intelligence reform is not being mourned in all quarters.
Joining me is Admiral Bobby Inman, one of the country's most distinguished former intelligence officers serving as the director of the National Security Agency and deputy director of the CIA.
Admiral, good to have you with us.
ADMIRAL BOBBY INMAN, FORMER DIRECTOR, NSA: Thank you, sir.
DOBBS: The -- this reform legislation, you feel it's not an entirely a loss that it didn't pass?
INMAN: I don't think the bill deals with all the problems that need to be dealt with.
DOBBS: What would you like to see the Congress focus on first?
INMAN: In January 1996, I recommended creation of a director of -- national intelligence director, and that he have unambiguous budget authority, with the secretary of defense having the right to review it all. And if he didn't think it was adequate, tell the president or add in the defense budget, tactical forces. The 9/11 Commission got most of it right. I have great respect for the commissioners.
DOBBS: Right.
INMAN: But the only analytical part they dealt with was terrorism. Yet we know from the run-up to the Iraq war, there are a lot of other problems in the analytical elements of the intelligence community. There is another commission that's still at work, co- chaired by Chuck Rob and Larry Silverman. It's due out in March. It's going to focus on the analytical side. If I could wave my magic wand, I'd have the president call in the Congressional leaders to say he wants a bill on his desk not later than 1 July, creating the national intelligence director, unambiguous budget authority, but also to deal with the recommendations that are going to come from the commission looking at the analytical side. Let's do it right the first time instead of having to get one bill done and needing to revisit it.
DOBBS: The fact that the election is over, whether anyone wants to acknowledge this or not, takes away some of the political motivation for those in Congress and the White House. The prospect that should another terrorist attack be successful in this country, it would certainly create considerable heat on those in Congress. That's the principal liability I suppose they face. What does Admiral Bobby Inman think, though, about the necessity of -- you mentioned the national director of intelligence there. We've already got a National Counterterrorism Intelligence Center established by executive order. What about the idea that 19 hijackers, despite all of the intelligence, all of the analysis, 19 hijackers had 63 valid driver's licenses, and this thing -- this reform legislation, in part, was blocked because the Senate didn't want to go along with changing that?
INMAN: Lou, we long since have passed the point when we need a national identification card, whether it's the driver's license or some other form, and no one should be able to have one that is not a legal citizen of the country.
If they've got a passport with a visa to live here, if they've got a green card, that's fine. But everyone who lives in this country should be documented. And if you weigh that against privacy, just go look at all the information about all of us that's available now on the Internet, everything from our credit to our traffic tickets. So the idea we don't move to ensure that we have legitimate documentation on everyone here, I cannot understand.
DOBBS: Admiral Bobby Inman, we thank you very much for being with us. Look forward to talking with you again soon.
INMAN: Thank you, sir.
DOBBS: Still ahead here, the "Dobbs Report," tonight my thoughts on an NBA brawl.
Your brief thoughts and why policymakers aren't doing a thing to stop a falling dollar. They'd better start thinking. We'll have that story and what a stalled intelligence bill would mean for the Bush administration and the Bush agenda. Three of the country's top political journalists join me next. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: World markets are focusing on the steep decline of the dollar. And that two-year slide of the dollar has simply steepened more. Christine Romans has the story -- Christine.
CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, in those two years, the dollar is down 45 percent against the euro, it's down almost 35 percent against the yen. And finally, George Bush and Alan Greenspan and John Snow are starting to talk about the reasons. In Chile, from President Bush, a commitment to a strong dollar.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BUSH: My government has a strong dollar policy. And the best way to affect those who watch the dollar's value is to make a commitment to deal with our short-term and long-term deficits.
(END VIDEO CLIP) ROMANS: But international investors aren't listening, they're waiting for action. Even if the dollar falls, it won't make our products more competitive in China, because it's currency is pegged to the dollar. And our trade deficit with China over the past three years has simply gone off a cliff. We buy $150 billion more from China than they sell to us. But China is running a deficit with the rest of the world. The result is the U.S. is financing China's trade with the rest of the world. Meanwhile, our record trade deficits simply grow, and the dollar has nowhere to go but down -- Lou.
DOBBS: And the trade deficit is driving the dollar lower, and that is not a problem we're going to correct anyway soon.
Christine, thank you.
I'm joined now by three of the country's top political journalists, Ron Brownstein of the "L.A. Times," Karen Tumulty of "TIME", Roger Simon, "U.S. News & World Report" all joining me tonight from our Washington, D.C. studios. APEC was a big success, Ron. The president got everything he wanted. Free trade is here. We're going to get agreement with the Chinese to stop the North Korean nuclear program, right?
RON BROWNSTEIN, "LOS ANGELES TIMES": And he also got a security guard into the meeting, which was one of the highlights of the weekend. Look, these are stubborn problems. You mentioned before the CAFTA agreement, lingering, waiting for a vote. Again, we talked about this on Friday. It was an issue during the Democratic primaries. We never really got the debate over it that we could have had in the general elections. The doubts are still there. It's unclear where that goes. North Korea is a problem for which there is not an easy solution. I don't think anybody has a great idea, and we continue to see that coming out of APEC.
DOBBS: And Karen, the failure, despite what Congressman Pete Hoekstra said here just earlier about it isn't dead, intelligence reform is certainly all but dead. How big a problem is this for the president?
KAREN TUMULTY, "TIME" MAGAZINE: Oh, I think it's a big problem because this issue is therefore going to be waiting for him, when Congress gets back in January. And, of course, that was a time when the president really wanted to be getting off to a very, very fast start on those big items on his domestic agenda. Social Security reform, tax reform. And instead, what he's going to have to be doing is dealing with last year's leftover problems because this is a bill that it seems like politically, in some form or another, does have to pass.
BROWNSTEIN: Lou, can I say something real quick and make one point we haven't heard talked about tonight which is I think House Republicans...
DOBBS: It's early, Ron.
BROWNSTEIN: It's early. All evening. House Republican leaders have essentially acknowledged that they could pass the bill that's in the conference if they were willing to accept substantial Republican defection. There would be enough Democratic votes in all likelihood to pass it out of the House, but they're simply not willing to pass a bill that divides their caucus. That's something else that President Bush has to face.
DOBBS: That probably would be political suicide. Roger Simon, speaking of other issues that this Republican leadership in both the House and the Senate should be embarrassed about, an omnibus spending bill, $390 billion, 14 pounds, they're just weighing these things now. No longer are we worried about the pages. They didn't even have the time to read it. They don't know what in the world they're doing. When will they be sufficiently embarrassed? Is there sufficient shame for them to correct the way in which they were behaving on Capitol Hill?
ROGER SIMON, "U.S. NEWS & WORLD REPORT": Well, I hope that day has come and I hope that day has come now. Because in that bill, as we now all know, there's a provision that gives members of Congress the ability to look at tax returns by ordinary American citizens. Individual tax returns, except for criminal investigations, have always been private. And I think most Americans don't want politicians' sticky fingers going through their tax returns. And it's because nobody read the bill. Just as you said, Lou, they don't have time anymore, they don't care. Not even their staffs are reading the bill anymore, and that's a serious problem.
TUMULTY: Of course, there is one way to slow down a bill like this, which is to -- to have the president veto it. And the president had some tough talk on that. It's significant to remember that President Bush went through his entire first term at least so far without vetoing a single piece of legislation.
BROWNSTEIN: Lou, can I just jump in with -- just come back with what we were talking about on the House -- on the intelligence bill? You know, when welfare reform passed, which I think most people now agree was a good idea. Half of house Democrats voted against it. In '97, a substantial minority of House Democrats voted against the balanced budget bill that most people now think was a good idea. Sometimes the needs of the nation are such that it does require a president to take the risk of alienating a certain portion of his own party, and I think that's one test for the president will be, does he want this badly enough to pass something even if a number of Republicans don't want it?
TUMULTY: And one issue, too, is that Denny Hastert, because this would pass, wouldn't want the Democrats getting credit for the passage of a very popular bill.
SIMON: One thing that surprised me, Lou, is that President Bush, at his press conference in Chile, said up to the last minute, he thought the intelligence bill was going to pass. I can understand him getting bad intelligence from Iraq. I can't understand him getting bad intelligence from Capitol Hill. It's a short walk from the White House. There's a huge office within the White House that does nothing but liaise with Capitol Hill. He should not have been blindsided by this and embarrassed by this while he was at an international summit.
DOBBS: Well, how blindsided must he also feel that with his own lobbyists going up to Capitol Hill, negotiating with Jim Sensenbrenner on the conference committee, and the Senate turning down the deal the president himself endorsed to move this legislation through?
TUMULTY: Well, quite frankly, I think who he ought to be negotiating with, it sounds like, is Don Rumsfeld. If the president were putting more pressure on his own Pentagon, this bill would have a lot easier time getting through.
DOBBS: Which raises the question, are these crocodile tears being shed by the administration over the failure to pass this legislation, Ron?
BROWNSTEIN: It's a very good question, Lou. You have to remember, when this first came out, the White House was very cold to the idea of creating the national intelligence czar, only after John Kerry endorsed the entire recommendations of the commission did the White House endorse on -- join on. There may be a sense, among some on the Hill, that the White House is ambivalent about this. You see that in the concerns of allowing the Pentagon to raise these concerns.
DOBBS: Well, Admiral Bobby Inman and a lot of other people right now consider Duncan Hunter and Jim Sensenbrenner to be real heroes in all of this. I'm sure you'll be writing and analyzing all of that. Ron Brownstein, Karen Tumulty, Roger Simon, as always, thank you for your insight. We appreciate it.
Still ahead, the results of tonight's poll, and I'll share a few of my thoughts on this weekend's NBA brawl. Everybody's weighing in on this. I couldn't be denied. I hope you'll stay with us for that.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: The results of our poll tonight, given what happened with the omnibus spending bill which Congress did approve and the intelligence reform legislation which Congress did not, 80 percent of you say Congress should make reform of its own legislative process a top priority.
And tonight a few comments. We're not going to cover here tonight, the NBA brawl and suspensions, we'll leave that to others. We're doing so in large measure because I believe the NBA itself should be held accountable not only for this ugly incident, but also for creating an atmosphere in its organization that tolerates bad behavior in all forms from too many of its athletes. What are we to make of a league that tolerates the attempted strangling of one of its coaches, sexual misconduct, drug usage, and even dogfighting, that insists on selling beer in unrestricted and highly profitable amounts? And what about American business that spends its advertising dollars to support such pathetic behavior and fill the seats of all the arenas and coliseums around the country. And did I mention the everyday fans who continue in great hypocrisy to cluck about all of this terrible conduct while tuning into games and buying front-row seats. It's all hardly worth a mention but we thought we would. Thanks for being with us tonight. Please join us tomorrow. For all of us here good night from New York. "ANDERSON COOPER 360" is next.
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Aired November 22, 2004 - 18:00 ET
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(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LOU DOBBS, HOST: Tonight, what in the world is Congress thinking? The entire Intelligence Reform Bill blown up because the Senate wants illegal aliens to have driver's licenses.
REP. JIM SENSENBRENNER (R-WI), CHAIRMAN, HOUSE JUDICIARY COMMITTEE: I don't like to vote for things on serious issues that might look good on a bumper sticker.
DOBBS: House Judiciary Committee Chairman Jim Sensenbrenner led the fight to include recommendations of the September 11 Commission to prevent illegal aliens from obtaining driver's licenses.
Congressman Sensenbrenner and House Intelligence Committee chairman Pete Hoekstra will be here to talk about why the negotiations failed and why Congress is refusing to protect the American people.
And I'll talk with Peter Gadiel, the president of the 9/11 Families for a Secure America. He lost his 23-year-old son on September 11.
President Bush says he'll push ahead with plans to legalize millions of illegal aliens. Could it be President Fox and President Bush consider our southern border an inconvenience?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: One out of every ten Mexicans lives in the United States.
DOBBS: And how should we reform our intelligence community? Do congressional reforms go far enough, or are they misguided? I'll be talking with Admiral Bobby Inman, former director of the National Security Agency, and former deputy director of the CIA.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT for Monday, November 22. Here now for an hour of news, debate and opinion is Lou Dobbs.
DOBBS: Good evening.
Tonight, anger and defiance on Capitol Hill after Congress failed to pass a sweeping Intelligence Reform Bill. One of the main reasons: Congress' refusal to support a measure to bar illegal aliens from obtaining driver's licenses. Congress tonight also faces tough questions about the way in which it handled the massive new spending bill. An unelected House aide almost added a measure that would have allowed lawmakers to inspect the tax returns of every American. That measure was ultimately blocked by the Senate at the last minute.
Tonight, Ed Henry reports on the battle over the Intelligence Reform Bill. Lisa Sylvester reports on the spending bill controversy. And Casey Wian reports on a battle still building, President Bush's proposals to give illegal aliens the right to live and work in this country.
We begin with Ed Henry -- Ed.
ED HENRY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good evening, Lou.
Vice President Cheney came up to the capitol today, huddled behind closed doors with Congressman James Sensenbrenner, trying to break this log jam on 9/11 reform, but that meeting ended, and there was yet another stalemate.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
HENRY (voice-over): Congressman James Sensenbrenner, one of two Republicans to hold up the intelligence bill, says he's more determined than ever to block what he considers meaningless reform.
SENSENBRENNER: Well, I'm not going to cave.
HENRY: Sensenbrenner wants to ban states from giving driver's licenses to illegal immigrants. He says Senate negotiators are too scared to challenge powerful lobbyists who oppose the provision.
SENSENBRENNER: I don't like to vote for things on serious issues that might look good on a bumper sticker, but which I know have so many loopholes that they won't work.
HENRY: Not even President Bush calling from Chile on Friday night could stop Sensenbrenner. Observers say it's up to the president to face down fellow Republicans.
JOHN LEHMAN (R), FORMER 9/11 COMMISSIONER: The president now has been challenged directly by the leadership of the -- of the Congress and by the lobbyists and by the bureaucracy. Now he's got to show who's in charge.
HENRY: The other Republican who refused to be rolled was Congressman Duncan Hunter. Despite a call from Vice President Cheney, Hunter insisted on protecting the Pentagon from losing power to a new director of national intelligence.
REP. DUNCAN HUNTER (R-CA), CHAIRMAN, ARMED SERVICES COMMITTEE: In my shop, having them maintaining the chain of command and -- and searching our people in uniform is paramount.
HENRY: Some believe the window of opportunity has closed. But top Republicans think they can salvage this after Thanksgiving.
SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL (R-KY), MAJORITY WHIP: The president's on the way back from South America, is going to lobby some more. I'm optimistic we're going to come back together December the 6th and 7th and pass this bill.
HENRY: Former 9/11 commissioners are warning of inaction.
TIM ROEMER (D), FORMER 9/11 COMMISSIONER: We saw intelligence failures, FBI mistakes, border patrol and visa problems leading up to 9/11, and we lost 3,000 people. How many more body bags are we going to need to see?
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HENRY: James Sensenbrenner fired back that the 9/11 commissioners should not be satisfied with doing just half the job. He says he wants reform with teeth, not just window dressing.
Sensenbrenner, in fact, points out that the -- the 19 hijackers were able to validly obtain 63 driver's licenses across the country. He says that's a problem he wants to fix. Sensenbrenner says he will stand on principle, even if it brings down the entire bill -- Lou.
DOBBS: Thank you very much, Ed Henry from Capitol Hill. And I'll be talking with Congressman Sensenbrenner in just a matter of moments.
Lawmakers tonight are also tackling the consequences of an astonishing attempt by a House staff aide to give Congress the right to inspect your tax returns.
Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist said he has no idea how that proposal was added to the spending bill. Not surprisingly, that raises considerable doubt about the entire legislative process operating on Capitol Hill now.
Lisa Sylvester reports from Washington.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LISA SYLVESTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Buried in the 14-pound spending bill on page 1102, section 222, was an item missed by House members but caught by Senate staffers, a provision that would have allowed the Senate and House appropriations committees to peek at anyone's confidential taxpayer returns.
SEN. KENT CONRAD (D), NORTH DAKOTA: This would have provided unfettered power to chairmen of the appropriations committees, now and in the future to assign agents, to go review people's tax returns, and to reveal them to the public without any civil or criminal penalty.
SYLVESTER: Congress had to roll the appropriations bills of 13 government departments into one mammoth legislation, because it failed to pass individual appropriations bills during the term, and the session was nearing an end. Lawmakers were outraged they were given a bill that they only had a few hours to read.
REP. BRIAN BAIRD (D), WASHINGTON: Something is wrong with our democracy, my friends.
PAUL LIGHT, BROOKINGS INSTITUTION: Congress has become sloppier over the last 20 years in terms of its legislating. It's become less disciplined. It's become more polarized. The way you get things done up there, given the intense partisan opposition, is to do this kind of legislating.
SYLVESTER: The bill also contained a lot of pork: $25,000 to fund a mariachi music program in Nevada; almost $5 million to stabilize bath houses in Arkansas; $1.5 million for the Congressman Richard Gephardt archives at the Missouri Historical Society; $1.4 million to upgrade the international airport in appropriations chairman Ted Stevens' district; and $225,000 for the National Wild Turkey Federation.
TOM SCHATZ, CITIZENS AGAINST GOVERNMENT WASTE: The taxpayers have nothing to be thankful for this Thanksgiving because of all the pork in the omnibus appropriations bill that Congress has just enacted.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SYLVESTER: House Republicans plan to delete the tax return provision in a special session on Wednesday. And the president is expected to sign the bill after the provision is removed -- Lou.
DOBBS: Lisa, thank you.
I am joined now by the congressman who blocked the House vote on the Intelligence Reform Bill over the issue of completing the recommendations of the 9/11 Commission.
Congressman James Sensenbrenner is chairman of the House Judiciary Committee. He is also a member of the homeland security committee and joins us tonight from Capitol Hill.
Congressman, thank you for being with us.
SENSENBRENNER: Good evening, Lou. Glad to be here.
DOBBS: Congressman, the idea -- I referred to -- I'd like to start with a quote. Senator Rockefeller, referring to you and to congressman Duncan Hunter, if we could put that up for our viewers to see.
"We've had, frankly, two obstructionists in the House. It's a matter of two individuals who are trying to stop it, the legislation to reform our intelligence community, for their own reasons. And it doesn't make sense." Senator Jay Rockefeller, the vice chairman of the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence.
Congressman, what's your reaction?
SENSENBRENNER: Congressman Hunter and I are trying to do it right. And it's better to do it right than to do it at a half-baked manner that ends up coming back and endangering the American people.
The 9/11 Commission itself recognized that there were problems in our driver's license system. The 19 hijackers got 63 validly issued driver's licenses. And you can bet they used them to get on the planes on September 11.
We need tough national standards to make sure that people don't game the system, and that includes denying driver's licenses to illegal aliens who cannot prove their lawful presence in the United States.
DOBBS: Congressman, I think to most Americans, and if one looks at the most recent polling in this country, that makes absolute sense to most Americans. Yet you were described by, certainly, Senator Rockefeller and others in the Senate as an obstructionist.
Why in the world would it not have been just a matter of great ease on the part of all the conferees to agree that this country will not issue documents to illegal aliens and to move ahead with the reform legislation?
SENSENBRENNER: Because the Senate was stubborn. The House passed a comprehensive package of law enforcement and immigration reforms, not just on the driver's license issue, when the bill was passed in early October.
A conference committee was set up the second week of October. The senators refused to talk about the immigration and law-enforcement provisions in this bill until Tuesday of last week saying they were extraneous, they were too controversial, we ought to deal with them in separate legislations or study them.
DOBBS: Too controversial?
SENSENBRENNER: Yes.
DOBBS: Too controversial.
I understand the president, Congressman, called you Friday night trying to get you to change your position, that, in point of fact, you were willing to do that, so long as you were given other considerations. What were those other considerations?
SENSENBRENNER: The other considerations were tightening up the law so that terrorists who had gotten into this country and were identified by our intelligence agencies could be detained and deported before they executed a terrorist act.
And the president agreed that that was something that was necessary and was a legitimate tradeoff. He sent his chief legislative director in to talk to the senators, and they said no to that as well as no to denying illegal aliens driver's licenses. DOBBS: Why in the world would they not agree to that?
SENSENBRENNER: You'll have to ask them. But these are the same senators who have been bitterly attacking Congressman Hunter and myself for standing up for some common-sense reforms that are needed to close the loop.
What the senators are proposing to do is that we would have great intelligence, but, once we got the great intelligence, we wouldn't have the legal tools to use them to prevent terrorists from gaming our legal system and immigration laws to cover their potential terrorist attack in the country.
It's like fumbling the ball on the 10-yard line. Hunter and I want to get the ball across the goal line to do it right.
DOBBS: To do it right. You think it is absolutely a fact that with 19 hijackers of September 11 having acquired 63 illegal driver's licenses, it seems that that should be the first line of defense in any reform of the intelligence community and Homeland Security.
SENSENBRENNER: Well, Lou, you're wrong on one respect. Those 63 driver's licenses were all validly issued by state DMVs across the country, and one of the things we wanted in our standards was some kind of a database link so you couldn't get a driver's license in northern Virginia and then get another driver's license when you went across the bridge to a DMV in Maryland or in D.C.
DOBBS: Congressman Jim Sensenbrenner, I think I speak for a lot of people when I say thank you, sir.
SENSENBRENNER: You're welcome.
DOBBS: Later here, the chairman of the House Intelligence Committee, Congressman Pete Hoekstra, will join me to give us his perspective on the failure to pass the intelligence bill or perhaps, depending on your perspective, the success in not passing it.
I'll also be talking with former National Security Agency director and former deputy director of the CIA, Admiral Bobby Inman.
And I'll be joined by Peter Gadiel, the father of the victim of the September 11 attacks.
Still ahead, federal agents break up a massive fraud that gave thousands of illegal aliens documents, including driver's licenses. We'll have that report for you.
President Bush and Mexican President Fox want millions of illegal aliens in this country legalized. Both presidents apparently think our border is something of an inconvenience. We'll have that report for you coming up next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: As many as 15 million illegal aliens live and work in this country. Three million are coming to this country this year alone.
This weekend, President Bush told President Vicente Fox of Mexico that he wants to push ahead with his plans to give millions of those illegal aliens legal status in this country.
Casey Wian reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The preview was two weeks ago. Secretary of State Colin Powell and Homeland Security Secretary Tom Ridge visited their Mexican counterparts to discuss immigration reform.
The main feature came this weekend as President Bush reassured Mexican President Vicente Fox he remains committed to a guest-worker program that would allow millions of illegal aliens to stay in the United States.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I think a program that recognizes the desire of some to come to America to work and the desire of some in America to employ them makes sense.
It makes sense not only for our economy, but for border security. We'd much rather have security guards chasing down terrorists or drug runners or drug smugglers than people coming to work.
WIAN: Many lawmakers in the president's own party don't want to even consider legal status until the U.S. gains control of its border with Mexico. A half-dozen temporary worker proposals have failed to advance on Capitol Hill, and the president's plan remains short on details.
In an interview on CNN this weekend, Fox hinted at a deadline for an immigration deal of next fall. After that, he'll be busy with his own election campaign.
VICENTE FOX, PRESIDENT OF MEXICO: We are not after amnesty. We don't think that's what should be done now. It's basically to legalize the work that Mexicans are paying in United States with dignity, with productivity and making that economy more competitive.
WIAN: Fox did acknowledge a responsibility to improve Mexico's economy, which would lessen the desire of millions of his countrymen to flee.
STEVEN CAMAROTA, CENTER FOR IMMIGRATION STUDIES: There are now nearly 11 million people living in the United States who are from Mexico, dwarfing all other immigration. Right now, believe it or not, even though Mexico is a very big country, one out of every 10 Mexicans lives in the United States.
WIAN: The Center for Immigration Studies says nearly one in every three U.S. immigrants are now Mexican. In 1980, Mexicans represented about one in every six of the U.S. foreign born.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
WIAN: Vicente Fox says he plans to meet with President Bush in Washington this spring. They'll again discuss immigration reform, after what Fox calls him doing a little more homework on the issue -- Lou.
DOBBS: Casey, thank you very much.
Casey Wian reporting live from Los Angeles.
The Justice Department today said it has arrested more than two dozen people who were helping illegal aliens obtain fake identification, other documents. That case involves thousands of illegal aliens from Indonesia.
Jeanne Meserve reports from Washington -- Jeanne.
JEANNE MESERVE, CNN HOMELAND SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Lou, it was lucrative work, netting millions of dollars. It was also against the law.
The 26 people charged today helped literally thousands of illegal immigrants, most from Indonesia, obtain false documentation, including fake driver's licenses, birth certificates, passports, Social Security cards and asylum applications.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PAUL MCNULTY, U.S. ATTORNEY: The defendants routinely charged $2,000 or more to create fraudulent asylum applications. The applications typically contained false claims, stating that the applicant had been raped, sexually assaulted, beaten or robbed by Muslims in Indonesia due to their Chinese ethnicity or Christian faith.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MESERVE: Prosecutors allege illegal immigrants were coached to cry and plead to exploit the perceived anti-Muslim sympathies of asylum officers and immigration judges.
The four immigration brokers and consultants in the ring were in northern Virginia and Maryland, but had plants all over the country, running one of the biggest document fraud organizations in the nation, according to law enforcement.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MCNULTY: ... that there is no known terrorism connection in this case. But we are all aware that the terrorists exploit document identification systems as they attempt to integrate themselves into our communities.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MESERVE: Aware because seven of the 19 September 11 hijackers used identification from illegal operations like this one. Although some states, including Virginia, have closed loopholes and made the work of such rings more difficult, U.S. Attorney McNulty says the easy money makes it an attractive pursuit and a potentially dangerous one for the country -- Lou.
DOBBS: Jeanne, thank you.
Coming up next here, free trade giveaway. The White House didn't want to talk free trade before the election. Neither did Congress. Now they hope to pass another free trade deal south of the border quickly and, of course, quietly. Some in Congress are promising a fight. We'll have that special report.
And then, the intelligence reform bill all but dead. House Intelligence Committee Chairman Pete Hoekstra will join me with his assessment.
And we'll have all of that and more still ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: The Central American Free Trade Agreement is the most important item on the president's free trade agenda. It is also, however, one of the most controversial. So controversial, in fact, the White House chose to put it off for consideration on Capitol Hill and for signature until after the election. Lawmakers now are sharply divided on CAFTA.
Kitty Pilgrim reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KITTY PILGRIM, CNN BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It was signed last May, but in no way sealed, and delivery is uncertain. The Central American Free Trade Agreement faces an uphill fight in Congress.
REP. SANDER LEVIN (D), MICHIGAN: There are international standards, child labor, the right of workers to be represented, and essentially what this agreement does is to thumb its nose at those standards.
PILGRIM: It was one of the issues in the in-box for President Bush after the election. Some even thought it would be put forward during the lame-duck session, and now, even with broad gains for Republicans, the issue is not a sure passage.
CAFTA countries are already a market worth more than $9 billion for U.S. exporters, the second largest market in Latin America outside Mexico. The objections are weak labor provisions. The U.S. textile and sugar industries fear the agreement will damage their industry.
SARAH ANDERSON, INSTITUTE FOR POLICY STUDIES: Trade is one issue where there is still drama, even with a Republican-held White House and even greater Republican control of Congress. It's so interesting in that it is this nonpartisan issue that makes for such a tough fight.
PILGRIM: The hope is it will generate jobs, but that is by no means assured.
SARAH THORN, GROCERY MANUFACTURERS OF AMERICA: We have to be more competitive, certainly retain jobs in the United States. Right now, we're having a massive exodus of candy jobs because of the high price of sugar. If we can get more sugar in and we can remain competitive, hopefully, we can keep the jobs here.
PILGRIM: The Bush administration says CAFTA will open markets.
CHRISTOPHER PADILLA, OFFICE OF U.S. TRADE REPRESENTATIVE: It's easy to trade into America. Our goal is to make it easy for us to trade our goods and services in other countries, too. That's what the president's trade agenda is about, and we've got a very ambitious program for the next four years.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: Well, passing CAFTA is the first part of that trade agenda for the next four years. The administration now says it hopes to get it done in the first half of 2005, but critics say heated debate in Congress that started the year may slow that progress -- Lou.
DOBBS: Kitty, thank you very much.
Still ahead here tonight, the intelligence reform bill all but dead. House Intelligence Committee Chairman Pete Hoekstra joins me.
And Peter Gadiel, president of 9/11 Families for a Secure America, is my guest.
Reinventing the CIA. Should we, and how should we? Former CIA deputy director, National Security Agency director, Admiral Bobby Inman joins me to talk about the battle over intelligence reform and the form that reform should take.
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ANNOUNCER: LOU DOBBS TONIGHT continues. Here now for more news, debate and opinion, Lou Dobbs.
DOBBS: In a moment, I'll be talking with the chairman of the House Intelligence Committee, Congressman Pete Hoekstra, about Congress' failure to pass sweeping intelligence reform.
But, first, taking a look at some of the top stories tonight.
Authorities say a man suspected of killing five hunters and wounding three others in Wisconsin intruded on private property. The man was arrested yesterday. The shooting sparked by a dispute over a deer stand, an elevated spot used by hunters.
Another investigation is underway tonight into the crash of a private jet on its way to pick up former President George H.W. Bush. All three people on board were killed. The jet clipped a light pole near the Hobby Airport in Houston. The former president was scheduled to travel to Ecuador. Those plans have been canceled.
U.S. officials tonight are trying to determine how a Moroccan man on this country's no-fly list was able to board an Air France jet liner from Paris to Washington, D.C. The flight, once it was discovered he was aboard, was diverted to Bangor, Maine. The Moroccan man and another man traveling with him were taken to Boston for questioning.
Returning to our top story tonight, the massive bill designed to reform U.S. intelligence following the September 11 attacks stalled in Congress. One reason: Congress refused to support a measure that would prevent illegal aliens that obtaining driver's licenses.
My guest tonight helped negotiate the combined House and Senate versions of this bill. Congressman Pete Hoekstra is the chairman of the House Intelligence Committee, and he joins us tonight from Michigan.
Congressman, good to have you with us.
REP. PETER HOEKSTRA (R-MI), CHAIRMAN, INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEE: Well, thank you, Lou. Good to be with you.
DOBBS: I know you put in a lot of hours on this, a lot of days. At the end, Senator Rockefeller referred to Congressman Sensenbrenner as an obstructionist, Congressman Duncan Hunter as an obstructionist. What is, in your judgment, the truth?
HOEKSTRA: Well, these are both two very qualified chairmen in the House of Representatives. They've brought up legitimate issues. Jim Sensenbrenner is passionate about immigration reform and the need for more border security and immigration reform if we are truly to be secure.
I agree with that position. We just can't -- weren't able to get it done in this bill. I disagree with Congressman Hunter that the intelligence reform bill that we are putting forward will jeopardize the safety of American troops. Having a 21st century intel community will help our troops, will secure our nation -- will secure our nation, it needs to be passed now.
DOBBS: Let me read to you a quote from Senate Intelligence Committee Chairman Pat Roberts. Senator Roberts said, "There's been a lot of opposition to this from the first. Some of it from the Pentagon, some of it, quite frankly, from the White House." Really? In your opinion, that's true?
HOEKSTRA: Well, there may have been hesitancy from various folks within the executive branch, but I can tell you that for the last two to three months, after the Senate passed their version of intelligence reform, with the help of the white house, after the house passed its version of intelligence reform with the help of the White House, after the House passed its version of intelligence reform with the help of the White House the White House has been fully involved in the process, working out this conference report. I think the president is going to continue the work that he has done, and he's going to press hard over the next two weeks to try to get this up for a vote on December 6th so that this 25th attempt to reform intelligence in the last 47 years, that finally after 25 attempts, we will get it done.
DOBBS: Congressman, let me ask you this. We just -- Jeanne Meserve just reported on the massive fraud -- document fraud bust. The U.S. attorney saying point blank that fraudulent documents certainly exploited by terrorists, why in the world -- it should not, it seems to most people, I would think, seem unreasonable that the United States or states should not be issuing driver's licenses to those who are here illegally. Why in the world could not the Senate agree to that rather straightforward, simple statement?
HOEKSTRA: Well, according to the Senate it was much more complex than that. You know, they'll have to explain to you exactly why they couldn't agree to Congressman Sensenbrenner's position on this bill. You know, in the House bill, we dealt with law enforcement. We dealt with immigration. We dealt with foreign policy. On the Senate side, the only thing that was dealt with was intelligence community reform. They felt uncomfortable taking these issues and putting it part of their bill and putting it a part of the conference report.
DOBBS: Congressman, we thank you very much for being with us. Is it your judgment that you will be successful before the new Congress in getting some sort of compromise reform legislation?
HOEKSTRA: Well, I sure hope so. I was listening to your comments before. You said it was all but dead. I think we've got a little bit more life in the product than that. I think there's going to be a full debate over the next two weeks. I think we've got a real shot at getting this done yet.
DOBBS: Mr. Chairman, thanks for being with us, Congressman Pete Hoekstra, thank you, joining us tonight from Michigan.
HOEKSTRA: Thank you.
DOBBS: Bringing us to the subject of our poll tonight, do you believe that Congress should make reform of its legislative process itself a priority? Yes or no? Cast your vote at loudobbs.com. We'll bring you the results later here in the broadcast.
My next guest says that immigration reforms are a critical part of intelligence reform. Peter Gadiel is the president of 9/11 Families for a Secure America. His son, James, was killed in the World Trade Center on September 11th. Peter Gadiel believes that if our national immigration laws had been fully enforced before September 11th, his son and many others would still be alive today. Good to have you with us.
PETER GADIEL, 9/11 FAMILIES FOR A SECURE AMERICA: Thank you for having me.
DOBBS: The statement, Congressman Sensenbrenner pointing out, 19 hijackers held 63 valid driver's licenses. What is your reaction when you hear that Jim Sensenbrenner was the primary person to stand up and say, as a matter of first line of defense, we've got to be able to stop giving valid driver's licenses to people who are here illegally.
GADIEL: People like Senator Collins and Lieberman and Roberts and Congressman Harman have been piling on him and criticizing him. But for the people of my group, 9/11 Families for a Secure America, he's a hero. He's able to take this absurd, false, phony criticism and fight back and make the point that driver's licenses are first and last line of defense.
DOBBS: It is a remarkable period. Do you understand -- you've been talking with these congressmen, these senators. I have not been able to get from any one of them who is opposed to banning these driver's licenses a solid, intelligent national security answer as to why they would be against it.
GADIEL: Well, if you go into Senator Lieberman's office, you'll hear the issue is complex. It's not complex. And for our members, the message we want to get across to the people of Connecticut, the people of California, Jane Harman's district and others, is that if you are in favor of the Collins/Lieberman/McCain bill, the Senate bill, then you are in favor of giving licenses to terrorists, it's that simple. Because if you support the Senate bill, then what you want to give is make licenses available to illegal aliens, an illegal alien is a person who's never been identified properly. And so any illegal alien can be a terrorist. We don't know who they are.
DOBBS: And Congressman Sensenbrenner also pointed out that the president agreed, as a matter of horse trading on this issue, to toughen the laws that would allow authorities to detain and deport terrorists.
GADIEL: Right.
DOBBS: And that was not agreed to by the Senate conferees.
GADIEL: The Senate conferees would not budge an inch from their original position. They're saying that the House didn't compromise. But, in fact, the House compromised a great deal to the point where, at the end, the only thing in terms of border security or driver's license reform was the driver's license provision. All the other border security measures had been bargained away by the House because of the refusal of the Senate, Collins, Lieberman, McCain, the rest of the crowd, Rockefeller, to compromise even an inch. And there's no interpretation available for their position other than that they want to keep the borders open because they want cheap labor in this country, and the people provide massive campaign contributions are continuing to fund their campaigns.
DOBBS: You said it that straightforward.
GADIEL: Straightforward. Senator Roberts, over one-third of $1 million of campaign dollars, from agribusiness alone in the last few years. Agribusiness, a major user of cheap, illegal labor. Senator Roberts, you don't want closed borders? We do. We consider our children's lives and the future of this country much more important than your contributions from agribusiness.
DOBBS: Congressman Duncan Hunter, Chairman of the House Armed Forces Committee, saying this legislation should not pass because it takes away too much power from the Department of Defense intelligence. Do you agree with him on that?
GADIEL: I can't comment on the intelligence side. I mean, I've been working on border security and such things. And for me to say anything about the intelligence dispute would be talking through my hat.
DOBBS: Your position, the position of your group, the 9/11 Families for a Secure America, is that driver's licenses, we have to stop issuing them to illegal aliens, and that we have to have border security.
GADIEL: Border security. More people on the border, more internal enforcement, ban the use of matricular cards.
DOBBS: It sounds so straightforward, so simple, so primary, that if one cannot defend their borders, what defense is there?
GADIEL: Well, talk to Senator Rockefeller, he'll tell you the issue is complex. I'm sorry. I mean, General Franks said during the Iraq war that any nation that wants to can control its borders. The people in Congress do not want to control our borders. That's where the problem lies.
DOBBS: What should people who agree with you do?
GADIEL: Well, Election Day has passed. One of the worst members of the entire congress on this issue is senator McCain. He authored a provision in the Senate bill, that essentially invites states to go on giving licenses to terrorists, and he's just been elected by 70 percent of the vote. On the other hand, those very same people supported the PAN initiative which was a ...
DOBBS: Proposition 200.
GADIEL: Proposition 200, right. You know, vote them out of office. Get rid of Senator Rockefeller, get rid of Senator Lieberman. Vote for people who will support the borders and not just talk right about the issue, and then vote wrong, like Senator Lieberman. They always talk about how they want to control the borders, but when it comes to a vote, they won't do it.
DOBBS: Peter Gadiel, we thank you very much for being with us.
GADIEL: Thank you.
DOBBS: Still ahead here tonight, a critical time for our nation's intelligence gathering agencies, the intelligence reform legislation is stalled in the House and Senate and a high-level shake- up is under way at the same time at the CIA. I'll be talking with former director of the National Security Agency, deputy CIA director, Admiral Bobby Inman. And then, giving away trade. Why this country's exploding trade deficit with China is worsening, and what that means for a sinking dollar. And for you. And me. Next. Stay with us.
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DOBBS: Well, few people doubt that our intelligence community needs to be reformed. But Congress' failure to pass sweeping intelligence reform is not being mourned in all quarters.
Joining me is Admiral Bobby Inman, one of the country's most distinguished former intelligence officers serving as the director of the National Security Agency and deputy director of the CIA.
Admiral, good to have you with us.
ADMIRAL BOBBY INMAN, FORMER DIRECTOR, NSA: Thank you, sir.
DOBBS: The -- this reform legislation, you feel it's not an entirely a loss that it didn't pass?
INMAN: I don't think the bill deals with all the problems that need to be dealt with.
DOBBS: What would you like to see the Congress focus on first?
INMAN: In January 1996, I recommended creation of a director of -- national intelligence director, and that he have unambiguous budget authority, with the secretary of defense having the right to review it all. And if he didn't think it was adequate, tell the president or add in the defense budget, tactical forces. The 9/11 Commission got most of it right. I have great respect for the commissioners.
DOBBS: Right.
INMAN: But the only analytical part they dealt with was terrorism. Yet we know from the run-up to the Iraq war, there are a lot of other problems in the analytical elements of the intelligence community. There is another commission that's still at work, co- chaired by Chuck Rob and Larry Silverman. It's due out in March. It's going to focus on the analytical side. If I could wave my magic wand, I'd have the president call in the Congressional leaders to say he wants a bill on his desk not later than 1 July, creating the national intelligence director, unambiguous budget authority, but also to deal with the recommendations that are going to come from the commission looking at the analytical side. Let's do it right the first time instead of having to get one bill done and needing to revisit it.
DOBBS: The fact that the election is over, whether anyone wants to acknowledge this or not, takes away some of the political motivation for those in Congress and the White House. The prospect that should another terrorist attack be successful in this country, it would certainly create considerable heat on those in Congress. That's the principal liability I suppose they face. What does Admiral Bobby Inman think, though, about the necessity of -- you mentioned the national director of intelligence there. We've already got a National Counterterrorism Intelligence Center established by executive order. What about the idea that 19 hijackers, despite all of the intelligence, all of the analysis, 19 hijackers had 63 valid driver's licenses, and this thing -- this reform legislation, in part, was blocked because the Senate didn't want to go along with changing that?
INMAN: Lou, we long since have passed the point when we need a national identification card, whether it's the driver's license or some other form, and no one should be able to have one that is not a legal citizen of the country.
If they've got a passport with a visa to live here, if they've got a green card, that's fine. But everyone who lives in this country should be documented. And if you weigh that against privacy, just go look at all the information about all of us that's available now on the Internet, everything from our credit to our traffic tickets. So the idea we don't move to ensure that we have legitimate documentation on everyone here, I cannot understand.
DOBBS: Admiral Bobby Inman, we thank you very much for being with us. Look forward to talking with you again soon.
INMAN: Thank you, sir.
DOBBS: Still ahead here, the "Dobbs Report," tonight my thoughts on an NBA brawl.
Your brief thoughts and why policymakers aren't doing a thing to stop a falling dollar. They'd better start thinking. We'll have that story and what a stalled intelligence bill would mean for the Bush administration and the Bush agenda. Three of the country's top political journalists join me next. Stay with us.
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DOBBS: World markets are focusing on the steep decline of the dollar. And that two-year slide of the dollar has simply steepened more. Christine Romans has the story -- Christine.
CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, in those two years, the dollar is down 45 percent against the euro, it's down almost 35 percent against the yen. And finally, George Bush and Alan Greenspan and John Snow are starting to talk about the reasons. In Chile, from President Bush, a commitment to a strong dollar.
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BUSH: My government has a strong dollar policy. And the best way to affect those who watch the dollar's value is to make a commitment to deal with our short-term and long-term deficits.
(END VIDEO CLIP) ROMANS: But international investors aren't listening, they're waiting for action. Even if the dollar falls, it won't make our products more competitive in China, because it's currency is pegged to the dollar. And our trade deficit with China over the past three years has simply gone off a cliff. We buy $150 billion more from China than they sell to us. But China is running a deficit with the rest of the world. The result is the U.S. is financing China's trade with the rest of the world. Meanwhile, our record trade deficits simply grow, and the dollar has nowhere to go but down -- Lou.
DOBBS: And the trade deficit is driving the dollar lower, and that is not a problem we're going to correct anyway soon.
Christine, thank you.
I'm joined now by three of the country's top political journalists, Ron Brownstein of the "L.A. Times," Karen Tumulty of "TIME", Roger Simon, "U.S. News & World Report" all joining me tonight from our Washington, D.C. studios. APEC was a big success, Ron. The president got everything he wanted. Free trade is here. We're going to get agreement with the Chinese to stop the North Korean nuclear program, right?
RON BROWNSTEIN, "LOS ANGELES TIMES": And he also got a security guard into the meeting, which was one of the highlights of the weekend. Look, these are stubborn problems. You mentioned before the CAFTA agreement, lingering, waiting for a vote. Again, we talked about this on Friday. It was an issue during the Democratic primaries. We never really got the debate over it that we could have had in the general elections. The doubts are still there. It's unclear where that goes. North Korea is a problem for which there is not an easy solution. I don't think anybody has a great idea, and we continue to see that coming out of APEC.
DOBBS: And Karen, the failure, despite what Congressman Pete Hoekstra said here just earlier about it isn't dead, intelligence reform is certainly all but dead. How big a problem is this for the president?
KAREN TUMULTY, "TIME" MAGAZINE: Oh, I think it's a big problem because this issue is therefore going to be waiting for him, when Congress gets back in January. And, of course, that was a time when the president really wanted to be getting off to a very, very fast start on those big items on his domestic agenda. Social Security reform, tax reform. And instead, what he's going to have to be doing is dealing with last year's leftover problems because this is a bill that it seems like politically, in some form or another, does have to pass.
BROWNSTEIN: Lou, can I say something real quick and make one point we haven't heard talked about tonight which is I think House Republicans...
DOBBS: It's early, Ron.
BROWNSTEIN: It's early. All evening. House Republican leaders have essentially acknowledged that they could pass the bill that's in the conference if they were willing to accept substantial Republican defection. There would be enough Democratic votes in all likelihood to pass it out of the House, but they're simply not willing to pass a bill that divides their caucus. That's something else that President Bush has to face.
DOBBS: That probably would be political suicide. Roger Simon, speaking of other issues that this Republican leadership in both the House and the Senate should be embarrassed about, an omnibus spending bill, $390 billion, 14 pounds, they're just weighing these things now. No longer are we worried about the pages. They didn't even have the time to read it. They don't know what in the world they're doing. When will they be sufficiently embarrassed? Is there sufficient shame for them to correct the way in which they were behaving on Capitol Hill?
ROGER SIMON, "U.S. NEWS & WORLD REPORT": Well, I hope that day has come and I hope that day has come now. Because in that bill, as we now all know, there's a provision that gives members of Congress the ability to look at tax returns by ordinary American citizens. Individual tax returns, except for criminal investigations, have always been private. And I think most Americans don't want politicians' sticky fingers going through their tax returns. And it's because nobody read the bill. Just as you said, Lou, they don't have time anymore, they don't care. Not even their staffs are reading the bill anymore, and that's a serious problem.
TUMULTY: Of course, there is one way to slow down a bill like this, which is to -- to have the president veto it. And the president had some tough talk on that. It's significant to remember that President Bush went through his entire first term at least so far without vetoing a single piece of legislation.
BROWNSTEIN: Lou, can I just jump in with -- just come back with what we were talking about on the House -- on the intelligence bill? You know, when welfare reform passed, which I think most people now agree was a good idea. Half of house Democrats voted against it. In '97, a substantial minority of House Democrats voted against the balanced budget bill that most people now think was a good idea. Sometimes the needs of the nation are such that it does require a president to take the risk of alienating a certain portion of his own party, and I think that's one test for the president will be, does he want this badly enough to pass something even if a number of Republicans don't want it?
TUMULTY: And one issue, too, is that Denny Hastert, because this would pass, wouldn't want the Democrats getting credit for the passage of a very popular bill.
SIMON: One thing that surprised me, Lou, is that President Bush, at his press conference in Chile, said up to the last minute, he thought the intelligence bill was going to pass. I can understand him getting bad intelligence from Iraq. I can't understand him getting bad intelligence from Capitol Hill. It's a short walk from the White House. There's a huge office within the White House that does nothing but liaise with Capitol Hill. He should not have been blindsided by this and embarrassed by this while he was at an international summit.
DOBBS: Well, how blindsided must he also feel that with his own lobbyists going up to Capitol Hill, negotiating with Jim Sensenbrenner on the conference committee, and the Senate turning down the deal the president himself endorsed to move this legislation through?
TUMULTY: Well, quite frankly, I think who he ought to be negotiating with, it sounds like, is Don Rumsfeld. If the president were putting more pressure on his own Pentagon, this bill would have a lot easier time getting through.
DOBBS: Which raises the question, are these crocodile tears being shed by the administration over the failure to pass this legislation, Ron?
BROWNSTEIN: It's a very good question, Lou. You have to remember, when this first came out, the White House was very cold to the idea of creating the national intelligence czar, only after John Kerry endorsed the entire recommendations of the commission did the White House endorse on -- join on. There may be a sense, among some on the Hill, that the White House is ambivalent about this. You see that in the concerns of allowing the Pentagon to raise these concerns.
DOBBS: Well, Admiral Bobby Inman and a lot of other people right now consider Duncan Hunter and Jim Sensenbrenner to be real heroes in all of this. I'm sure you'll be writing and analyzing all of that. Ron Brownstein, Karen Tumulty, Roger Simon, as always, thank you for your insight. We appreciate it.
Still ahead, the results of tonight's poll, and I'll share a few of my thoughts on this weekend's NBA brawl. Everybody's weighing in on this. I couldn't be denied. I hope you'll stay with us for that.
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DOBBS: The results of our poll tonight, given what happened with the omnibus spending bill which Congress did approve and the intelligence reform legislation which Congress did not, 80 percent of you say Congress should make reform of its own legislative process a top priority.
And tonight a few comments. We're not going to cover here tonight, the NBA brawl and suspensions, we'll leave that to others. We're doing so in large measure because I believe the NBA itself should be held accountable not only for this ugly incident, but also for creating an atmosphere in its organization that tolerates bad behavior in all forms from too many of its athletes. What are we to make of a league that tolerates the attempted strangling of one of its coaches, sexual misconduct, drug usage, and even dogfighting, that insists on selling beer in unrestricted and highly profitable amounts? And what about American business that spends its advertising dollars to support such pathetic behavior and fill the seats of all the arenas and coliseums around the country. And did I mention the everyday fans who continue in great hypocrisy to cluck about all of this terrible conduct while tuning into games and buying front-row seats. It's all hardly worth a mention but we thought we would. Thanks for being with us tonight. Please join us tomorrow. For all of us here good night from New York. "ANDERSON COOPER 360" is next.
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