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Lou Dobbs Tonight
Storms Present Obstacles For Many Holiday Travelers; White House Calls Ukrainian Election Illegitate; Troops Broaden Anti- Insurgent Sweep in Iraq
Aired November 24, 2004 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KITTY PILGRIM, HOST (voice-over): Tonight, the election crisis in Ukraine escalates. The outgoing president warns of civil war; the United States accuses Ukrainian officials of fraud.
COLIN POWELL, SECRETARY OF STATE: We cannot accept this result as legitimate, because it does not meet international standards.
PILGRIM: Heavy rain, snowstorms and tornadoes make holiday travel extremely difficult for some travelers tonight.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My wife's flight comes in three hours late. So we're going to be spending a little time here at the airport.
PILGRIM: We'll have a live report from one of this country's busiest airports. We'll also have the latest Thanksgiving weather forecast.
And Wal-Mart invades a new $10 billion market: families that use military exchange stores. We'll have a special report.
And should illegal aliens have U.S. driver's license? It's an issue that's holding up the entire intelligence bill. We'll debate the controversy in our "Face-Off" tonight.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT for Wednesday, November 24. Here now for an hour of news, debate and opinion, sitting in for Lou Dobbs, who is on vacation, Kitty Pilgrim.
PILGRIM: Good evening.
Tonight the United States says it will not accept the results of the presidential election in Ukraine. Secretary of State Colin Powell says there are reports of fraud and abuse.
Today, the Ukrainian government declared its candidate the winner. The pro-western opposition leader called a national strike to protest the results.
Ukraine is strategically located between Russia and NATO countries. Jill Dougherty reports from the Ukrainian capital, Kiev, and Suzanne Malveaux reports on the U.S. reaction from Crawford, Texas. We go to Jill Dougherty first.
Jill, what's the latest on the massive protests in Kiev tonight?
JILL DOUGHERTY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Kitty, we were just downtown, where they have been holding the big demonstrations with literally hundreds of thousands of people. It was very big tonight, and surprisingly, even after this announcement that the opposition candidate has lost, the government-backed candidate had won.
The opposition demonstrators were down there in, really, a festive mood. In fact, throughout the city, you still see people driving around in cars, beeping horns as if they won.
And the message seems to be coming from them that they are going full steam ahead. They do not accept the results of the Central Election Commission and they say they are intent, somehow, in making sure that Viktor Yushchenko, their candidate, does become the president.
PILGRIM: Jill, the euphoria may evaporate. Will you see a change in tone soon? I mean, certainly, the situation with that many people in the streets is volatile.
DOUGHERTY: Well, it is volatile, and the we were down, in fact, downtown this evening, where there were some police cars that -- we certainly saw a lot of police cars and buses. And there was one incident where some police trucks came down, lots of police in them, turned around and were surrounded by the crowd.
But the amazing thing about it, Kitty, is that it wasn't a violence confrontation. Police just left. So that's (AUDIO GAP).
PILGRIM: We appear to have lost the -- lost signal with Jill Dougherty in Kiev, and we apologize for that.
But let's move on, because the United States' reaction to all of this. The White House is closely following the events in the Ukraine, and today, Secretary of State Colin Powell said the Ukrainian election failed to meet international standards.
White House correspondent Suzanne Malveaux reports from Crawford, Texas -- Suzanne.
SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Kitty, the White House is keeping a very close eye on the developments in the Ukraine.
Now, while President Bush stayed largely out of sight today, his secretary of state, Colin Powell, made it very clear that the U.S. does not accept these election results.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MALVEAUX (voice-over): A jovial President Bush hosted Spain's king and queen for a turkey feast at his Crawford ranch, while his secretary of state, Colin Powell, back in Washington, publicly decried Ukraine's presidential elections as a fraud. POWELL: The Central Election Commission has just announced official results and declared the current prime minister the winner. We cannot accept this result as legitimate.
MALVEAUX: The Bush administration says it is deeply disturbed over fraud in Ukraine's elections. It views it as a blow to democracy in that region, with Russia and the Ukrainian authorities declaring its candidate the winner and the U.S., Europeans, and Ukrainian people supporting an alternate candidate.
The Bush administration is putting pressure on the Ukrainian government to investigate the election results and cooperate with international observers.
POWELL: If the Ukrainian government does not act immediately and responsibly, there will be consequences.
MALVEAUX: Tuesday, the White House issued a statement condemning the Ukrainian authorities for the election crisis and said the U.S. stood by the Ukrainian people.
U.S. authorities are also concerned with Russia's role in the former Soviet state, which they say has exacerbated increasing tensions between the United States and Russia.
It was just last Saturday President Bush met with Russian President Vladimir Putin in Chile at the APEC summit, where senior administration officials say Mr. Bush expressed his concerns about Russia's recent retreat from democratic reforms, as well as Putin's moves to limit the free press and centralize power.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MALVEAUX: Now, as far as those possible consequences, a Bush administration official involved in the talks regarding the Ukraine says it's not likely that the U.S. would simply give up relations with the former Soviet state, but it is possible that they would impose sanctions -- Kitty.
PILGRIM: Thanks very much, Suzanne Malveaux.
The escalating crisis in Ukraine could test the wills between the west and Russia. Now Russia is determined to keep Ukraine in its sphere of influence.
Ryan Chilcote reports from Moscow.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
RYAN CHILCOTE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Russia's historical ties to Ukraine run deep.
VYACHESLAV NIKONOV, POLITICAL ANALYST: Most of the sacred places of Russians are in Ukraine now. Kiev was the beginning of the Russian civilization. Definitely for Russians, Ukraine is something not far away. CHILCOTE: The Kremlin has worked hard to bring Ukraine closer since the fall of the Soviet Union.
DMITRY TRENIN, CARNEGIE FOUNDATION: Put this out to create or re-create, rebuild Russia as a modern great power. And this concept includes the notion of Russia being the most influential outside player in the former Soviet states.
CHILCOTE: Ukraine has perhaps the most geopolitical importance to Russia. Putin twice traveled to Ukraine during the campaign to support Yanukovych, fearing the western ties of opposition candidate Viktor Yushchenko.
NIKONOV: The reason that Russia cared about the election in Ukraine is the possible prospect of Yushchenko to bring Ukraine into NATO. And of course, American seeks a fleet in Sarastovo (ph) or components of national missile defense in the Crimea (ph) or American bombers at Altava (ph), or G.I.'s in Kiev. It's not something Russians would like to see in the next two or three years.
TRENIN: Putin is clearly serving notice on the Bush administration that, if they need Russian support in certain things, be that Iraq, be that something else, Iran or maybe North Korea, then they have to accept certain Russian interests in the area which matters a lot to Russia. And it does matter a lot to Russia.
CHILCOTE: President Putin values his relationship with President Bush, but on Ukraine, he may be ready to flex Russia's muscle.
Ryan Chilcote, CNN, Moscow.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: Turning to Iraq, thousands of U.S., British and Iraqi troops stepped up against insurgents south of Baghdad. The troops are sweeping through Babil, the Babil Province, raiding suspected insurgent strongholds.
Pentagon correspondent Barbara Starr reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BARBARA STARR, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): As new Iraqi troops join the ranks, elections in their violence-wracked country are just ten weeks away. Top U.S. military officials say they must decide in the next several days whether to order more troops from the U.S. to go to Iraq to ensure security.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: While everyone recognizes that it will be a fight to the elections in those provinces where the insurgents are active.
STARR: In the so-called Triangle of Death south of Baghdad, the British Black Watch has joined the U.S. and Iraqi forces in Operation Plymouth Rock. It involves sweeps through several towns, 5,000 troops tightening the noose around remaining insurgent elements. The entire area has been full of criminal activity for months: convoy attacks, kidnappings and outright murders, according to experts. This operation is very different from the assault on Falluja.
CAPT. DAVID NEVERS, PUBLIC AFFAIRS OFFICER: Iraqi security forces, U.S. Marines, the British allies are people who will conduct a multitude of operations aimed at capturing or killing those who are violently opposing Iraq's path to peace and democracy and freedom.
STARR: Unlike Falluja, where the U.S. telegraphed its punch ahead of time...
NEVERS: What we're doing here is developing intelligence patiently and persistently, going after targets in a very focused way. You're going to see in the coming days a lot of precision raids, house-to-house searches, but the activity is going to -- is going to experience periods of hot and cold. The insurgents are not going to know when we're coming.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
STARR: Kitty, Pentagon officials say there is no decision yet sending more U.S. troops into Iraq, but that such a decision could come very quickly after the Thanksgiving holidays -- Kitty.
PILGRIM: All right. Thanks very much.
Barbara Starr.
A remarkable escape for the American crew of an armored vehicle in Iraq. A roadside bomb exploded as a U.S. military convoy was driving through the northern city of Mosul. Now the target appears to be a Striker armored troop carrier. Strikers can carry up to 11 troops, and, incredibly, only one soldier was wounded in this attack.
Insurgents in Afghanistan also continuing their attacks on U.S. troops. Two soldiers were killed in a bomb attack today. One soldier was wounded. The bomb went off as a military vehicle crossed a dry riverbed in a province southwest of Kabul. The military did not identify the soldier's unit.
Still ahead tonight, extreme weather brings chaos for thousands of holiday travelers. We'll have a live report from one of this country's busiest airports, and we'll have the latest National Weather Forecast.
Wal-Mart invasion: Wal-Mart has a new target, military families. We'll have a special report.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PILGRIM: Bad weather sweeping across much of the country tonight has created a nightmare scenario on the busiest travel day of the year. Deadly storms swept across the Southeast, claiming at least four lives. Tornadoes touched down in Alabama, Louisiana, Mississippi and Texas.
And further north, an early snowstorm is blasting much of the Midwest. More than six inches covered highways in Kansas City, Missouri. Now that storm now is moving over Chicago. You're looking at live pictures from Schiller Park, Illinois.
Now the dangerous weather across the country is causing delays on the ground and in the air. Rob Marciano is at the CNN Weather Center. Deborah Feyerick is at New York's La Guardia Airport. And we go first to Rob Marciano -- Rob.
ROB MARCIANO, CNN WEATHER CENTER: Hi, Kitty.
I think the main problem tonight is really the snow that's falling across the Midwest. Luckily, most of it will be south of Chicago as far as the heaviest snow is concerned. But the snow coming down right now in Chicago is such that it's definitely causing some travel delays at the airport there.
As you can see, they'll be out of it a little bit later on tonight, and most of the heavier snows will be across parts of southern Michigan and we could see upwards of six or eight inches by tomorrow morning.
So traveling, say, from Chicago over to Detroit is going to be an issue as far as slick roadways are concerned, and then south of that rain and snow line, we have rain, yes, but also the threat for severe weather.
And, as you mentioned, yesterday, we had 50 reports of tornadoes touching down, already had a handful of tornadoes touch down today, and this red watch box indicates the threat for seeing more tornadoes through the next couple of hours as this squall line begins to move through big cities like Louisville up through Cincinnati and then eventually heading across the Ohio River Valley.
Very big storm. I mean, it goes all the way from the border of Canada down to the Gulf of Mexico, and this is the main line where the cold front. Even a couple of more tornado watches out for the next couple of hours across the Southeast. And we had some heavy weather move through parts ever Atlanta earlier this evening, now moving across eastern Georgia.
Underneath the clouds across the I-95 corridor, no now to deal with, but certainly some rain and wet weather tonight through tomorrow. Here's the snow from Detroit through Flint back to Chicago. Again, they'll be tapering off in Chicago. Most of the heaviest amounts of snow down to the south.
Midwest looking pretty good, but, across the Southeast, still have that strong line moving now, pressing through eastern parts of South Carolina and Georgia.
Over to the Pacific northwest, storm coming in tonight. Snow levels will be dropping throughout the daytime tomorrow from above the mountain passes down to below the mountain passes. So travel over the mountains down across the (UNINTELLIGIBLE) and over the Cascades going to be an issue as well. Skiers, of course, loving that because that means snow in the mountains.
Overnight lows tonight certainly cold enough for that snow to stick and hang around in Chicago, 23 there. Twenty-eight degrees in St. Louis. Look at the difference in temperatures. Overnight lows tonight across the Northeast in the 50s, and daytime highs tomorrow in the 60s, but temperatures will drop throughout the day from D.C. to Philly to New York to Boston.
As this cold front moves through, they'll tumble from the 60s to the 50s and in through the 40s as well. Thirty-eight degrees for a high temperature in Chicago tomorrow. So you'll feel the cold air behind this cold front.
Not a whole lot of accumulating snow expected throughout the day tomorrow, although southern parts of Michigan will see it. Pittsburgh, Cincinnati, Youngstown -- you'll see some snow as well, but it shouldn't stick all that much. This is a big storm, and it's effecting a lot of people.
Most of the heavy weather, though, Kitty, is coming tonight and really for the next 12 hours. After tomorrow, things do improve rapidly. Back to you.
PILGRIM: Rob, that is quite a weather map. Thanks very much.
Rob Marciano.
Well, the Federal Aviation Administration says there will be more flights in the air today than any other day of the year. At any given time, there are several thousand planes in the air over the United States, and, at New York's La Guardia Airport tonight, flights have been delayed on average about 45 minutes.
Deborah Feyerick joins me live from La Guardia -- Deborah.
DEBORAH FEYERICK, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Kitty, we can tell you that the departure and arrival board is getting uglier by the minute. All those wonderful on-times that we had at beginning of the day increasingly giving way to delays and cancellations. Some of the people -- that's the hottest place to be right now, just looking to see when you're plane is going to be taking off, if it's going to be taking off at all.
Plane by plane, city by city, the weather is really messing up the works when it comes to airline travel today. Again, all that weather that Rob was talking about. Even though the lines did move quickly, the problem is that the wait has ground everything to a screeching halt.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We thought that to try to make it easier for us, we'd leave early. We have children, so we have a lot of entertainment to do. But at least we can come here and relax.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I thought I would see a lot of people on the lines, but they're not yet there. That doesn't mean that they won't be there soon.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I was amazed I came an hour-and-a-half early, and not one person in line.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
FEYERICK: Now airport officials really say that they hope to simply clean things up tonight. What that means is they're going to try to get as many planes and as many people up in the air so that they can reach their destination, the place where they're going to spend Thanksgiving.
Really what they're going to do in the morning is start fresh. So whoever didn't make it out last night will hopefully make it out tomorrow night -- Kitty.
PILGRIM: All right. Thanks a lot, Debbie, and we do wish them well.
On this Thanksgiving Eve, the White House has released its official holiday card. The president and the first lady chose an image of the red room. Now the print is based on an oil painting by artist Cindi Holt from Fort Worth, Texas. The card includes Psalm 95, Verse 2 from the Bible and the inscription "May songs of joy fill your home with warmth and your heart with happiness this holiday season." Now the card is expected to be sent to more than two million people.
Coming up, the Wal-Mart effect hits military bases. Why Wal- Mart's rapid expansion is threatening a critical benefit for military families.
And the battle over driver's licenses for illegal aliens holds up negotiations of the massive intelligence reform bill. Two experts will face off on this highly charged issue.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PILGRIM: Wal-Mart has been accused of predatory business practices, using its sheer size and power to drive smaller competitors out of business. Well, now it may be targeting military bases, specifically the exchange stores that are an important benefit for many military families.
Casey Wian reports from San Diego, California.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Like most retail stores, this one's moving merchandise in to move a lot out the day after Thanksgiving. But the only shoppers at the naval base exchange store in San Diego are active or retired military personnel and their families. Military exchange stores are a perk for the nation's armed forces offering everything most traditional retailers do but at much lower prices. But, in recent years, Wal-Mart has invaded their $10 billion- a-year turf, and exchange stores are losing customers, like Tanya Clark (ph), whose husband is in his third tour in Iraq as a Marine infantryman. She prefers Wal-Mart to the Camp Pendleton exchange store.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They're all great stores, but this is just much more convenient.
WIAN: A half-dozen Wal-Marts are within a short drive of Camp Pendleton. Nationwide, 55 Wal-Marts are within five miles of a military base.
(on camera): The Defense Department says on average exchange prices are about 9 percent lower than those at Wal-Mart and other big box retailers. Plus, exchange customers don't have to pay sales tax.
(voice-over): Even so, many military shoppers believe Wal-Mart costs less. Jody Hawking (ph) lives two minutes from a military exchange store, but drives 15 minutes to Wal-Mart.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I've been on three different bases, and every base I've gone to, I -- the only reason I shop there is there's a clearance rack. Wal-Mart's very competitive. Everything in there I know is going to be a good price.
WIAN: The retired Air Force general who's trying to make exchange stores more competitive says Wal-Mart and other discount retailers are targeting the military community.
C.J. WAX, DIRECTOR, UNIFIED EXCHANGE TASK FORCE: Well, if you look at the places Wal-Mart builds and you recognize that military installations have high-density populations from a very broad income spectrum from the most junior enlisted man to the most senior officer, it would offer to Wal-Mart a consistent customer base that's relatively immune to economic swing.
WIAN: In a statement, Wal-Mart builds near military bases because so many military families want to shop there. It says military communities need Wal-Mart, and its customers also help other local businesses.
Meanwhile the Navy, Marine, Army and Air Force military exchange stores are considering combining back-office operations to become more competitive.
Casey Wian, CNN, San Diego.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: Just ahead, the exporting of America. First jobs, now technology. We'll tell you about the latest American innovation that's being shipped overseas. And in our Face Off tonight, the document that helped the 9/11 hijackers board our planes. A debate over one of the most contentious issues facing Congress as it struggles to pass an intelligence bill.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ANNOUNCER: LOU DOBBS TONIGHT continues. Sitting in for Lou Dobbs, Kitty Pilgrim.
PILGRIM: In a moment, we'll have tonight's Face Off on whether illegal aliens in this country should be able to have driver's licenses.
But, first a look at some of the top stories tonight.
Severe storms across the Midwest and eastern half of the country are interfering with Thanksgiving travel for millions of Americans. Several inches of snow are clogging roadways from Kansas to Michigan. That snow plus thunderstorms in the South and Northeast have caused flight delays across the country.
The Army National Guard reportedly is struggling to meet its goals for recruiting new members. "USA Today" says the Guard recruited 2,500 troops last month, more than 30 percent below its target. National Guard troops and reservists make up nearly half of the 138,000 U.S. troops in Iraq.
And a recount in Washington State's gubernatorial race has found Republican Dino Rossi won by only 42 votes. The first vote count had him ahead by 261 votes. Now Democrats are expected to call for another recount.
President Bush says he remains committed to reaching a compromise on the 9/11 intelligence bill that is now stalled in Congress. Now that bill has been blocked by some House Republicans who are demanding, among other things, a provision that would prevent illegal aliens from obtaining driver's license. Now this issue is a compelling one because some of the September 11 hijackers illegally obtained driver's licenses, and it is the center of tonight's Face Off.
Now joining me tonight is Mike Cutler, a fellow at the Center for Immigration Studies, and he's also a former special agent with the INS. And Marc Rotenberg, executive director of the Electronic Privacy Information Center joins us. Mr. Rotenberg is in our Washington studios.
And welcome to you both. Let's start with you, Marc, because you are farthest away, where do you stand on this issue with the driver's licenses? Should it even be in this bill?
MARC ROTENBERG, PRES., ELEC. PRIVACY INFORMATION CNTR.: Well, I think it's important first of all to understand that a lot of steps have been taken, post-9/11, to improve identification and particularly of people entering the country. The provision in this bill is really a debate over whether we're also going to have a national ID card. And I think it's unfortunate that it's being pushed through in the context of the 9/11 reforms because it was not a recommendation from the 9/11 Commission. In fact, Chairman Kean made quite clear that this was not a proposal he would favor. So while I think we certainly need to do more to improve identification, I think trying to pass through a measure that would create a national ID card at this point in time is a big mistake.
PILGRIM: So you're saying not driver's license but maybe an ID card, is that what you're saying?
ROTENBERG: Well, I'm saying that I think more can be done by the states to reduce the risk of fraud and counterfeiting. Part of the problem we have today is a lot of the identity cards that are issued by the states are too easy to counterfeit simply, and that is what the 9/11 hijackers were able to do. And so we certainly want to change that.
But at the same time to say that the cards should be integrated with law enforcement databases or should be integrated with immigration databases or even tax databases -- you know there was a proposal this week still in the spending measure to allow chairmen of powerful House committees to get access to tax records, that kind of expansion of government access to personal information would be just a terrible mistake.
PILGRIM: Let's get you in on this, Michael. And privacy is, of course, a concern for everyone.
MIKE CUTLER, FELLOW, CNTR. FOR IMMIGRATION STUDIES: Privacy has to be a concern for all of us. But to start talking about tax laws when we're talking about driver's licenses is to go off the subject. The real bottom line is that we know that we do use driver's licenses as a de facto national ID.
You can't even come into this building without showing a driver's license. You gain access to airplanes. You gain access to trains. You get access to all sorts of place based on a driver's license. And all that we want to have happen is to make certain that a person is who he or she claims to be. You know, I spent 30 years arresting bad guys, half of my career arresting drug traffickers, terrorists and murderers, and most of these folks have multiple identification, multiple names.
I've said that when a good guy gets up, he goes through his clothing to figure out what to wear. The bad guys go through their stuff to figure out who they want to be. And I think the driver's licenses are critical because we accept them as secure identification when, in fact, it's not secure. You know, the only thing worse than no security is false security.
PILGRIM: Let me ask you, Michael. I know you even approve more data on these cards, on a driver's license or a national identity card, you want some biological data also?
CUTLER: Well, what I would ideally like to see is to have driver's licenses linked to biometrics so that it would also help to protect against identity theft, which is currently the fastest growing white collar crime in America. And I'd like to see a national clearinghouse for all 50 states and U.S. possessions so that people could not get driver's licenses in different states to obscure their identities. And I think this would help to make us a lot safer and certainly the terrorists understood that this is where there was a major hole in the system.
PILGIRM: Marc, why not more information on a card, and why not have the databases share that information, it does seem like a compelling argument?
ROTENBERG: Sure, but I think it's important to understand, we're really talking about two different things here. I actually agree with Mike, that we want to reduce the likelihood of counterfeiting for identity documents. No interest is served when it's easy to duplicate or falsify an identity document. And he's right, of course, identity theft is a serious problem in this country.
But the proposal in the House measure that's currently holding up intelligence reform actually goes quite a bit further than this, because what the proponents have in mind is integrating that identity card with federal agency databases, so that it becomes possible when you provide this identity document to access other records that currently would not be accessible. And that is a very different type of function than we currently permit with a driver's license.
So I really think we need to separate out these two issues. You can push for the first and end up with a second and realize that now you have a national ID card that you never intended.
PILGRIM: Well, let me push you a little bit on this, tax records aside, which I think is a separate issue. Why not link the identity card with, say, FBI files, wanted records, police records, things like that?
ROTENBERG: Well, of course, you can do that, but then you really change the nature of the society. I mean, the United States has really been quite remarkable as other countries have adopted identity cards, the U.S. has resisted this. And we have said in effect that we think it's inconsistent with our constitutional tradition, with our Bill of Rights.
And I'd like to point out, by the way, the other countries, quite significantly, that have adopted identity documents like Spain, like in Israel, like Indonesia, have all faced serious terrorist attacks in recent years. So the belief that if you have an identity document, you remove the risk of a terrorist attack, I think that's just false.
PILGIRM: Marc, Mike brings up this great point...
CUTLER: But you know, England is now talking about doing just this sort of thing. And you know, the real bottom line is also that we are trying to gain control over our borders. We can't secure the country until we control the border. And we can't control the border purely from within the interior of the United States, if you want to gain control we also have to deal with interiir enforcement of the immigration laws to go after people who are here that get beyond the Border Patrol or get past the inspector at teh airport.
And I've said before on your program, that nobody would break into an amusement park if they couldn't go on the rides. So I don't believe that we ought to allowing people who are illegally in the United States to drive cars and do all those other things that enable them to function, quote, "normally" while they are within the country in violation of law.
So I think this is another reason why you want to be able to integrate this. And the other point taht I quickly want to make is about half of all people on the FBI's 10 most-wanted list are arrested during motor vehicle stops. So I think it's really important that when we put somebody behind the wheel of a car, which, after all, is a privilege, not a right that we really know who we're dealing with.
PILGRIM: Let me just ask, and it seems a pressing question to me, is all of this worked holding up the intelligence bill, Marc?
ROTENBERG: Well, that's really a very important question right now, and I think there's a lot of frustration in Washington that the efforts to prevent future 9/11s, which everyone supports, are being linked by some of the House leadership with an effort to crack down on immigration.
And these are really two distinct issues. If they want to pursue those issues, they should have the freedom to do it, but it should be taken apart from the debate over the 9/11 legislation, where there really is bipartisan support right now to pass a bill.
PILGRIM: All right. Marc, we're going to have to close it here. Let me give one last word to Michael.
CUTLER: Well, again, we need to control the borders, we need to know who's here. We're using these as de facto national IDs, and I think that it is appropriate to do it now because if we wait for later, you know how Congress works, they may never get around to this issue. I think it's important to strike while the iron is hot.
PILGRIM: Important issues, thank you very much for joining us, Marc Rotenberg and Michael Cutler, thank you, gentlemen.
CUTLER: Thank you, have a happy Thanksgiving.
ROTENBERG: Thank you.
Well, we want to hear from you on this very important issue in our poll. And we are asking: Do you believe the intelligence reform bill must contain a provision that prevents illegal aliens from obtaining driver's licenses? And the answer, yes or no. Cast your vote at cnn.com/lou. And we'll bring you the results later on in this show.
Now we have reported extensively here on the shipment of American jobs to cheap foreign labor markets. Tonight the exporting of America threatens not only American jobs but also some of the most promising new technologies.
Bill Tucker reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BILL TUCKER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): What if you could transform this waste into diesel fuel, water for irrigration, fertilizer for crops, and what if in the process you could completely and safely remove mad cow disease from the food chain, produce more energy than it takes to make the energy, and be environmentally clean? It can and is being done at this plant in Carthage, Missouri.
The question is how much longer will it be done in America?
BRIAN APPEL, CHANGING WORLD TECHNOLOGIES: We need a lot of money to build a lot of these plants. And if we have to go make taht money in Europe and Canada, then we'll do that and hopefully there will still be a level playing field in the future that we can come back to.
TUCKER: It's a matter of policy in the United States to support fuel produced from soybeans and animal fat or fuel additives from corn such as ethanol. Fuel from other sources such as agricultural waste does not meet the definition of a biofuel and doesn't qualify for U.S. subsidies.
Europe has a much broader set of definitions for biofuels, qualifying at least 10 different sources for subsidies. So the technology is going there.
BARRY HANSON, AUTHOR, "ENERGY POWER SHIFT": We run a tremendous economic risk by allowing these technologies to be developed in other countries where they have just a more of a long-term interest in their fuel self-sufficiency.
TUCKER: Canada actively supports biofuel technology with several Canadian companies already receiving government subsidies. But Canada is especially interested in a process developed by Changing World Technologies, which makes use of farm and animal waste, and not food stock. Ireland is interested as well. And more than just an emerging American technology could be lost here. Jobs are also at stake.
APPEL: These are biological refineries that, instead of producing waste from crude oil which comes from the ground, this is from the waste that's already up here. So these are good, high-paying jobs and technical jobs too.
TUCKER: And there are broader economic benefits, take the trade deficit, for example, more than $200 million of our deficit is in the form of energy purchased from overseas.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
TUCKER: If we made it here, that would be $200 million in the American economy, and not in the pockets of foreign economies -- Kitty.
PILGRIM: Sounds like a good idea. Thanks, Bill Tucker.
Still ahead here tonight, three of the countries top political journalists will join us.
And then Iran's nuclear ambitions, former CIA analyst Ken Pollack joins us to talk about his new book "The Persian Puzzle." Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PILGRIM: Iran may be trying to renege on an agreement to limit its nuclear activities. Iran says it wants to continue some uranium enrichment activities for research purposes. Now, critics say Iran is determined to develop nuclear weapons. Earlier, I spoke with former CIA analyst Ken Pollack. He is the author of "The Persian Puzzle: The Conflict Between Iran and America".
I asked him whether he believes Iran has curbed its nuclear activities?
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KEN POLLACK, AUTHOR, "THE PERSIAN PUZZLE": Well, I think that there is reason to believe that Iran may have temporarily suspended its nuclear program as ElBaradei is suggesting. Right now it is in Iran's interest. There's a great deal of speculation as to what the Iranians are thinking. But at the end of the days, I don't think this is a solution to the problem. The Iranians insist they have the right to nuclear weapons and the capability and technology to build them and nothing is going to stop them from doing so.
PILGRIM: This will eventually end up in the Security Council?
Will it have to come to that kind of measure?
POLLACK: Well, that's a really good question Kitty. I think the biggest problem there is twofold, first, you've got the Europeans who very much want to threaten the Iranians with taking this to the Security Council. They're trying to convince the Iranians to do the right thing. But by the same token because the Iranians are intransigent and because the Europeans haven't been willing in the past to follow through on threats, I think the Iranians may try to call their bluff. And add to that the fact it's not clear that the security council would do anything, the Chinese have been stating categorically they refuse to sanction Iran. If that's the case, the only way to solve this problem will be to deal with it outside the U.N. process.
PILGRIM: Lets broaden this out a bit, because I read your book, and thought it was fabulous in it's ability to draw in the psychology of the Iranian people in terms of their history. Have we reached an impasse with Iran because we're of two different minds the United States and Iran?
POLLACK: Right now it is clear, the Iranian people are fiercely nationalistic and see possession of nuclear weapons as being critical to their prestige and sense of their self. And the mere fact that the United States which has been their adversary for so long is trying to prevent that, makes many Iranians want the nuclear weapons even more. The one thing that the United States has going for, it in fact the Western world has going for it is that Iranians have a very weak economy today. And there are a number of Iranians will tell you the biggest priority is not nuclear weapons, it's their economy. And so if we can convince Iran that economically it will be much better off without nuclear weapons than with, I think we've got a real chance to convince Iranians they ought to put their efforts into their economic programs and not nuclear weapons.
PILGRIM: Harkening back to the economics speech, it was sort of a polarizing position, do we have to make special steps to ameliorate the distance that we created between the country or do you think a hard line will actually work better to bring the Iranians around?
POLLACK: The problem with the Iranians unfortunately, Kitty, is the answer is always both. I think that to some extent a hard line will be necessary with them. As I said, the Europeans have never been willing to follow through on the threats to the Iranians, as a result the Iranians have walked all over them. And I think that there has to be a real threat of sanctions. The Iranians have to believe they're going to pay a price in terms of their economy, if they continue to go down this road. By the same tokens the only way to convince the Iranians to move in a more progressive direction is if they believe the United States is willing to make accommodations to them. In other words, if they give up their nuclear program, the United States has to be willing to start paring back on the sanctions and dealing with other issues of concern to Iran.
PILGRIM: Very, very complicated stuff, and thank you very much for bringing your insight into this issue, Ken Pollack, thank you.
POLLACK: Thank you, Kitty.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: And coming up, I'll talk with three of the country's best political journalists about the Bush agenda in the next four years. That and a great deal more still ahead here tonight.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PILGRIM: It was one year ago tonight that President Bush was preparing to leave for his secret Thanksgiving visit to Iraq. This year, the president is expected to stay at his ranch in Crawford, Texas.
And joining me now from Washington are three of this country's very best political journalists, Roger Simon of "U.S. News & World Report," Karen Tumulty of "Time" magazine, and Ron Brownstein of "Los Angeles Times."
Thank you all for being here.
Lets start with the week, it's been a really interesting news cycle. Usually a very dull week, and yet we have this intelligence bill that's been held up dominated the news coverage.
Let's start with you Roger, what do you think of this issue? And do you think it will become a nonissue any time in the near future?
ROGER SIMON, U.S. NEWS & WORLD REPORT: I think it's going to hang around. But there are signs that the Bush administration may not feel that this bill is worth fighting for. After all, conservatives don't like it, conservatives are a major part of George Bush's power base. It strips power from Donald Rumsfeld who's close to the president.
And though the president and the vice president lobbied for it, we now hear members of Congress say they don't care about it all that much. So, I certainly wouldn't expect it to pass when the Congress comes back in early December. And it may be months, or longer if it ever passes at all.
PILGRIM: Is this that a problem, Karen?
KAREN TUMULTY, TIME: Well, it is a problem as long as you have the 9/11 commission out there lobbying for it. As long as you have a lot of the 9/11 victim survivors lobbying for it. And, of course, coming right after a presidential election that was really focused on President George Bush's ability to fight terrorism, to not pass this bill, I think, could become a real problem.
SIMON: You know, Kitty, what's extraordinary about this situation is that there really isn't anyone involved who disagrees that if the bill was brought to the Senate and House floor today, as written, without a word changed, it would pass. And what's really holding it up is the reluctance of the House Republican leadership to pass a bill for which there is significant opposition within their own caucus. We don't if there's a majority, but clearly a significant portion of the caucus opposed.
And what's striking here is that the president so far has been willing to accept that judgment and not in effect demand that they bring up to the floor a bill he says he supports that has majority support in both chambers.
If he is willing to accept that standard, in essence saying that not only does the bill have a majority in the support in the House overall, but a majority of Republicans, some of his other priorities in the second term may get a lot tougher, particularly immigration, maybe healthcare, even Social Security.
PILGRIM: Let me ask you another thing, though, based on the intelligence -- failure of the intelligence bill to pass. Does it create the perception that we're dropping the ball somehow, the president was calling on Porter Goss for 50 percent increase in the number of intelligence analysts and clandestine operators. Is this too much, too late? Are we behind the ball one more time on intelligence?
TUMULTY: Well Kitty, the White House says that this is to respond to the 9/11 commission, in part because this bill hasn't passed. The fact is, the 9/11 commission did not ask for or suggest anything like this. This would be the most dramatic expansion of the CIA's intelligence gathering capabilities since World War II.
There's some enthusiasm about the president's proposal, but there's also some skepticism as well, because he does not set a timetable for this, nor does he indicate in any fashion that he's going ask for the massive amounts of money that this would require.
RON BROWNSTEIN, LOS ANGELES TIMES: Also, to some extent, it's some off the point of the 9/11 commission which I think was focused on coordination of information. I mean, there's a lot of information that we obtained from a lot of different sources. And clearly one of the problems that they identify was the left hand knowing what the right hand is doing and having all of this come together in some usable way.
That is the essence of their recommendation on the National Counterterrorism Center as well as the national director of intelligence. The goal in both cases is to encourage greater coordination.
Now, originally the White House was skeptical of, at least the overall director idea, feeling that it would add another layer of bureaucracy. During the campaign they felt compelled to endorse it. And as Roger said, I think this entire episode is leaving people with a degree of uncertainty again about whether the president is truly committed to this idea.
SIMON: One of the things that the president is asking for in this measure that I they found intriguing was a much belated request for having intelligence analysts who actually speak Arabic. One of the most depressing findings of those who have investigated 9/11 is so many opportunities to uncover this plot slip through our fingers, because we don't have enough Arabic speaking intelligence officers.
Not all of our enemies speak English. It's a real problem for us. They speak their native languages. And we're going to have to speak the native languages too if we're going to maintain a high level of intelligence.
TUMULTY: But Roger, it's not like there are a lot of these people who are out there running around who are both skilled in intelligence and multilingual. That's one of the problems that can you ask for this, but it isn't like they can all report for duty Monday.
BROWNSTEIN: You got to start the ball going sometime.
PILGRIM: Let me change subjects here for a second, because I do want to get it in, the Ukraine, and we had that extraordinary statement today by secretary of state Colin Powell saying we would not recognize the election of Ukraine as legitimate. A very strong statement. Does it put us at odds with Russia a bit in that Russia backed a candidate that we're not recognizing at this point? Or extensively backed candidate? BROWNSTEIN: Yes, it was a real -- as you say, it was real ratcheting up the language from Colin Powell from what the administration was saying even a day ago. And it directly does.
It's a very awkward situation in many ways. I mean, obviously Russian President Putin has a lot invested in the current prime minister winning this election, and we have invested a lot in Putin, at least President Bush has over the last 4 years. So we are, I think, directly in conflict with him.
His intervention, Putin's intervention in this election was extraordinary, and sustained. And so there really is no way around it. If we are going to say this is illegitimate, we are heading for a good deal of conflict with the Russian president.
SIMON: It was extraordinary that Colin Powell himself made this statement. Colin Powell doesn't come out in front of the cameras live all that much. Donald Rumsfeld does it about once an hour. I think it was a statement by the administration saying we really think this election was illegitimate. And we're not going to settle for it.
PILGRIM: Again, a very extraordinary statement and we'll keep our eyes on that as the week moves on. Thanks very much for joining us. We have to close it there. Roger Simon, Karen Tumulty, and Ron Brownstein. Thanks a log. And have a great Thanksgiving.
TUMULTY: You, too, Kitty.
PILGRIM: Still ahead, the results of tonight's poll and a preview of what's ahead for tomorrow.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PILGRIM: Now the results of tonight's poll. 87 percent of you believe the intelligence reform bill must contain a provision that prevents illegal aliens from obtaining driver's licenses.
Well thanks for being with us tonight. Please join us tomorrow for a special report honoring our troops this Thanksgiving. Veteran's Affairs Secretary Anthony Principi will join us.
And we salute some of the men and women serving this country all around the world. General David Grange is my guest.
And the people working here at home to keep America running. We'll have their unique stories.
For all of us here, have a wonderful and safe holiday. Good night from New York. "ANDERSON COOPER 360" is next.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired November 24, 2004 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KITTY PILGRIM, HOST (voice-over): Tonight, the election crisis in Ukraine escalates. The outgoing president warns of civil war; the United States accuses Ukrainian officials of fraud.
COLIN POWELL, SECRETARY OF STATE: We cannot accept this result as legitimate, because it does not meet international standards.
PILGRIM: Heavy rain, snowstorms and tornadoes make holiday travel extremely difficult for some travelers tonight.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My wife's flight comes in three hours late. So we're going to be spending a little time here at the airport.
PILGRIM: We'll have a live report from one of this country's busiest airports. We'll also have the latest Thanksgiving weather forecast.
And Wal-Mart invades a new $10 billion market: families that use military exchange stores. We'll have a special report.
And should illegal aliens have U.S. driver's license? It's an issue that's holding up the entire intelligence bill. We'll debate the controversy in our "Face-Off" tonight.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT for Wednesday, November 24. Here now for an hour of news, debate and opinion, sitting in for Lou Dobbs, who is on vacation, Kitty Pilgrim.
PILGRIM: Good evening.
Tonight the United States says it will not accept the results of the presidential election in Ukraine. Secretary of State Colin Powell says there are reports of fraud and abuse.
Today, the Ukrainian government declared its candidate the winner. The pro-western opposition leader called a national strike to protest the results.
Ukraine is strategically located between Russia and NATO countries. Jill Dougherty reports from the Ukrainian capital, Kiev, and Suzanne Malveaux reports on the U.S. reaction from Crawford, Texas. We go to Jill Dougherty first.
Jill, what's the latest on the massive protests in Kiev tonight?
JILL DOUGHERTY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Kitty, we were just downtown, where they have been holding the big demonstrations with literally hundreds of thousands of people. It was very big tonight, and surprisingly, even after this announcement that the opposition candidate has lost, the government-backed candidate had won.
The opposition demonstrators were down there in, really, a festive mood. In fact, throughout the city, you still see people driving around in cars, beeping horns as if they won.
And the message seems to be coming from them that they are going full steam ahead. They do not accept the results of the Central Election Commission and they say they are intent, somehow, in making sure that Viktor Yushchenko, their candidate, does become the president.
PILGRIM: Jill, the euphoria may evaporate. Will you see a change in tone soon? I mean, certainly, the situation with that many people in the streets is volatile.
DOUGHERTY: Well, it is volatile, and the we were down, in fact, downtown this evening, where there were some police cars that -- we certainly saw a lot of police cars and buses. And there was one incident where some police trucks came down, lots of police in them, turned around and were surrounded by the crowd.
But the amazing thing about it, Kitty, is that it wasn't a violence confrontation. Police just left. So that's (AUDIO GAP).
PILGRIM: We appear to have lost the -- lost signal with Jill Dougherty in Kiev, and we apologize for that.
But let's move on, because the United States' reaction to all of this. The White House is closely following the events in the Ukraine, and today, Secretary of State Colin Powell said the Ukrainian election failed to meet international standards.
White House correspondent Suzanne Malveaux reports from Crawford, Texas -- Suzanne.
SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Kitty, the White House is keeping a very close eye on the developments in the Ukraine.
Now, while President Bush stayed largely out of sight today, his secretary of state, Colin Powell, made it very clear that the U.S. does not accept these election results.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MALVEAUX (voice-over): A jovial President Bush hosted Spain's king and queen for a turkey feast at his Crawford ranch, while his secretary of state, Colin Powell, back in Washington, publicly decried Ukraine's presidential elections as a fraud. POWELL: The Central Election Commission has just announced official results and declared the current prime minister the winner. We cannot accept this result as legitimate.
MALVEAUX: The Bush administration says it is deeply disturbed over fraud in Ukraine's elections. It views it as a blow to democracy in that region, with Russia and the Ukrainian authorities declaring its candidate the winner and the U.S., Europeans, and Ukrainian people supporting an alternate candidate.
The Bush administration is putting pressure on the Ukrainian government to investigate the election results and cooperate with international observers.
POWELL: If the Ukrainian government does not act immediately and responsibly, there will be consequences.
MALVEAUX: Tuesday, the White House issued a statement condemning the Ukrainian authorities for the election crisis and said the U.S. stood by the Ukrainian people.
U.S. authorities are also concerned with Russia's role in the former Soviet state, which they say has exacerbated increasing tensions between the United States and Russia.
It was just last Saturday President Bush met with Russian President Vladimir Putin in Chile at the APEC summit, where senior administration officials say Mr. Bush expressed his concerns about Russia's recent retreat from democratic reforms, as well as Putin's moves to limit the free press and centralize power.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MALVEAUX: Now, as far as those possible consequences, a Bush administration official involved in the talks regarding the Ukraine says it's not likely that the U.S. would simply give up relations with the former Soviet state, but it is possible that they would impose sanctions -- Kitty.
PILGRIM: Thanks very much, Suzanne Malveaux.
The escalating crisis in Ukraine could test the wills between the west and Russia. Now Russia is determined to keep Ukraine in its sphere of influence.
Ryan Chilcote reports from Moscow.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
RYAN CHILCOTE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Russia's historical ties to Ukraine run deep.
VYACHESLAV NIKONOV, POLITICAL ANALYST: Most of the sacred places of Russians are in Ukraine now. Kiev was the beginning of the Russian civilization. Definitely for Russians, Ukraine is something not far away. CHILCOTE: The Kremlin has worked hard to bring Ukraine closer since the fall of the Soviet Union.
DMITRY TRENIN, CARNEGIE FOUNDATION: Put this out to create or re-create, rebuild Russia as a modern great power. And this concept includes the notion of Russia being the most influential outside player in the former Soviet states.
CHILCOTE: Ukraine has perhaps the most geopolitical importance to Russia. Putin twice traveled to Ukraine during the campaign to support Yanukovych, fearing the western ties of opposition candidate Viktor Yushchenko.
NIKONOV: The reason that Russia cared about the election in Ukraine is the possible prospect of Yushchenko to bring Ukraine into NATO. And of course, American seeks a fleet in Sarastovo (ph) or components of national missile defense in the Crimea (ph) or American bombers at Altava (ph), or G.I.'s in Kiev. It's not something Russians would like to see in the next two or three years.
TRENIN: Putin is clearly serving notice on the Bush administration that, if they need Russian support in certain things, be that Iraq, be that something else, Iran or maybe North Korea, then they have to accept certain Russian interests in the area which matters a lot to Russia. And it does matter a lot to Russia.
CHILCOTE: President Putin values his relationship with President Bush, but on Ukraine, he may be ready to flex Russia's muscle.
Ryan Chilcote, CNN, Moscow.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: Turning to Iraq, thousands of U.S., British and Iraqi troops stepped up against insurgents south of Baghdad. The troops are sweeping through Babil, the Babil Province, raiding suspected insurgent strongholds.
Pentagon correspondent Barbara Starr reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BARBARA STARR, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): As new Iraqi troops join the ranks, elections in their violence-wracked country are just ten weeks away. Top U.S. military officials say they must decide in the next several days whether to order more troops from the U.S. to go to Iraq to ensure security.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: While everyone recognizes that it will be a fight to the elections in those provinces where the insurgents are active.
STARR: In the so-called Triangle of Death south of Baghdad, the British Black Watch has joined the U.S. and Iraqi forces in Operation Plymouth Rock. It involves sweeps through several towns, 5,000 troops tightening the noose around remaining insurgent elements. The entire area has been full of criminal activity for months: convoy attacks, kidnappings and outright murders, according to experts. This operation is very different from the assault on Falluja.
CAPT. DAVID NEVERS, PUBLIC AFFAIRS OFFICER: Iraqi security forces, U.S. Marines, the British allies are people who will conduct a multitude of operations aimed at capturing or killing those who are violently opposing Iraq's path to peace and democracy and freedom.
STARR: Unlike Falluja, where the U.S. telegraphed its punch ahead of time...
NEVERS: What we're doing here is developing intelligence patiently and persistently, going after targets in a very focused way. You're going to see in the coming days a lot of precision raids, house-to-house searches, but the activity is going to -- is going to experience periods of hot and cold. The insurgents are not going to know when we're coming.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
STARR: Kitty, Pentagon officials say there is no decision yet sending more U.S. troops into Iraq, but that such a decision could come very quickly after the Thanksgiving holidays -- Kitty.
PILGRIM: All right. Thanks very much.
Barbara Starr.
A remarkable escape for the American crew of an armored vehicle in Iraq. A roadside bomb exploded as a U.S. military convoy was driving through the northern city of Mosul. Now the target appears to be a Striker armored troop carrier. Strikers can carry up to 11 troops, and, incredibly, only one soldier was wounded in this attack.
Insurgents in Afghanistan also continuing their attacks on U.S. troops. Two soldiers were killed in a bomb attack today. One soldier was wounded. The bomb went off as a military vehicle crossed a dry riverbed in a province southwest of Kabul. The military did not identify the soldier's unit.
Still ahead tonight, extreme weather brings chaos for thousands of holiday travelers. We'll have a live report from one of this country's busiest airports, and we'll have the latest National Weather Forecast.
Wal-Mart invasion: Wal-Mart has a new target, military families. We'll have a special report.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PILGRIM: Bad weather sweeping across much of the country tonight has created a nightmare scenario on the busiest travel day of the year. Deadly storms swept across the Southeast, claiming at least four lives. Tornadoes touched down in Alabama, Louisiana, Mississippi and Texas.
And further north, an early snowstorm is blasting much of the Midwest. More than six inches covered highways in Kansas City, Missouri. Now that storm now is moving over Chicago. You're looking at live pictures from Schiller Park, Illinois.
Now the dangerous weather across the country is causing delays on the ground and in the air. Rob Marciano is at the CNN Weather Center. Deborah Feyerick is at New York's La Guardia Airport. And we go first to Rob Marciano -- Rob.
ROB MARCIANO, CNN WEATHER CENTER: Hi, Kitty.
I think the main problem tonight is really the snow that's falling across the Midwest. Luckily, most of it will be south of Chicago as far as the heaviest snow is concerned. But the snow coming down right now in Chicago is such that it's definitely causing some travel delays at the airport there.
As you can see, they'll be out of it a little bit later on tonight, and most of the heavier snows will be across parts of southern Michigan and we could see upwards of six or eight inches by tomorrow morning.
So traveling, say, from Chicago over to Detroit is going to be an issue as far as slick roadways are concerned, and then south of that rain and snow line, we have rain, yes, but also the threat for severe weather.
And, as you mentioned, yesterday, we had 50 reports of tornadoes touching down, already had a handful of tornadoes touch down today, and this red watch box indicates the threat for seeing more tornadoes through the next couple of hours as this squall line begins to move through big cities like Louisville up through Cincinnati and then eventually heading across the Ohio River Valley.
Very big storm. I mean, it goes all the way from the border of Canada down to the Gulf of Mexico, and this is the main line where the cold front. Even a couple of more tornado watches out for the next couple of hours across the Southeast. And we had some heavy weather move through parts ever Atlanta earlier this evening, now moving across eastern Georgia.
Underneath the clouds across the I-95 corridor, no now to deal with, but certainly some rain and wet weather tonight through tomorrow. Here's the snow from Detroit through Flint back to Chicago. Again, they'll be tapering off in Chicago. Most of the heaviest amounts of snow down to the south.
Midwest looking pretty good, but, across the Southeast, still have that strong line moving now, pressing through eastern parts of South Carolina and Georgia.
Over to the Pacific northwest, storm coming in tonight. Snow levels will be dropping throughout the daytime tomorrow from above the mountain passes down to below the mountain passes. So travel over the mountains down across the (UNINTELLIGIBLE) and over the Cascades going to be an issue as well. Skiers, of course, loving that because that means snow in the mountains.
Overnight lows tonight certainly cold enough for that snow to stick and hang around in Chicago, 23 there. Twenty-eight degrees in St. Louis. Look at the difference in temperatures. Overnight lows tonight across the Northeast in the 50s, and daytime highs tomorrow in the 60s, but temperatures will drop throughout the day from D.C. to Philly to New York to Boston.
As this cold front moves through, they'll tumble from the 60s to the 50s and in through the 40s as well. Thirty-eight degrees for a high temperature in Chicago tomorrow. So you'll feel the cold air behind this cold front.
Not a whole lot of accumulating snow expected throughout the day tomorrow, although southern parts of Michigan will see it. Pittsburgh, Cincinnati, Youngstown -- you'll see some snow as well, but it shouldn't stick all that much. This is a big storm, and it's effecting a lot of people.
Most of the heavy weather, though, Kitty, is coming tonight and really for the next 12 hours. After tomorrow, things do improve rapidly. Back to you.
PILGRIM: Rob, that is quite a weather map. Thanks very much.
Rob Marciano.
Well, the Federal Aviation Administration says there will be more flights in the air today than any other day of the year. At any given time, there are several thousand planes in the air over the United States, and, at New York's La Guardia Airport tonight, flights have been delayed on average about 45 minutes.
Deborah Feyerick joins me live from La Guardia -- Deborah.
DEBORAH FEYERICK, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Kitty, we can tell you that the departure and arrival board is getting uglier by the minute. All those wonderful on-times that we had at beginning of the day increasingly giving way to delays and cancellations. Some of the people -- that's the hottest place to be right now, just looking to see when you're plane is going to be taking off, if it's going to be taking off at all.
Plane by plane, city by city, the weather is really messing up the works when it comes to airline travel today. Again, all that weather that Rob was talking about. Even though the lines did move quickly, the problem is that the wait has ground everything to a screeching halt.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We thought that to try to make it easier for us, we'd leave early. We have children, so we have a lot of entertainment to do. But at least we can come here and relax.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I thought I would see a lot of people on the lines, but they're not yet there. That doesn't mean that they won't be there soon.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I was amazed I came an hour-and-a-half early, and not one person in line.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
FEYERICK: Now airport officials really say that they hope to simply clean things up tonight. What that means is they're going to try to get as many planes and as many people up in the air so that they can reach their destination, the place where they're going to spend Thanksgiving.
Really what they're going to do in the morning is start fresh. So whoever didn't make it out last night will hopefully make it out tomorrow night -- Kitty.
PILGRIM: All right. Thanks a lot, Debbie, and we do wish them well.
On this Thanksgiving Eve, the White House has released its official holiday card. The president and the first lady chose an image of the red room. Now the print is based on an oil painting by artist Cindi Holt from Fort Worth, Texas. The card includes Psalm 95, Verse 2 from the Bible and the inscription "May songs of joy fill your home with warmth and your heart with happiness this holiday season." Now the card is expected to be sent to more than two million people.
Coming up, the Wal-Mart effect hits military bases. Why Wal- Mart's rapid expansion is threatening a critical benefit for military families.
And the battle over driver's licenses for illegal aliens holds up negotiations of the massive intelligence reform bill. Two experts will face off on this highly charged issue.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PILGRIM: Wal-Mart has been accused of predatory business practices, using its sheer size and power to drive smaller competitors out of business. Well, now it may be targeting military bases, specifically the exchange stores that are an important benefit for many military families.
Casey Wian reports from San Diego, California.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Like most retail stores, this one's moving merchandise in to move a lot out the day after Thanksgiving. But the only shoppers at the naval base exchange store in San Diego are active or retired military personnel and their families. Military exchange stores are a perk for the nation's armed forces offering everything most traditional retailers do but at much lower prices. But, in recent years, Wal-Mart has invaded their $10 billion- a-year turf, and exchange stores are losing customers, like Tanya Clark (ph), whose husband is in his third tour in Iraq as a Marine infantryman. She prefers Wal-Mart to the Camp Pendleton exchange store.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They're all great stores, but this is just much more convenient.
WIAN: A half-dozen Wal-Marts are within a short drive of Camp Pendleton. Nationwide, 55 Wal-Marts are within five miles of a military base.
(on camera): The Defense Department says on average exchange prices are about 9 percent lower than those at Wal-Mart and other big box retailers. Plus, exchange customers don't have to pay sales tax.
(voice-over): Even so, many military shoppers believe Wal-Mart costs less. Jody Hawking (ph) lives two minutes from a military exchange store, but drives 15 minutes to Wal-Mart.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I've been on three different bases, and every base I've gone to, I -- the only reason I shop there is there's a clearance rack. Wal-Mart's very competitive. Everything in there I know is going to be a good price.
WIAN: The retired Air Force general who's trying to make exchange stores more competitive says Wal-Mart and other discount retailers are targeting the military community.
C.J. WAX, DIRECTOR, UNIFIED EXCHANGE TASK FORCE: Well, if you look at the places Wal-Mart builds and you recognize that military installations have high-density populations from a very broad income spectrum from the most junior enlisted man to the most senior officer, it would offer to Wal-Mart a consistent customer base that's relatively immune to economic swing.
WIAN: In a statement, Wal-Mart builds near military bases because so many military families want to shop there. It says military communities need Wal-Mart, and its customers also help other local businesses.
Meanwhile the Navy, Marine, Army and Air Force military exchange stores are considering combining back-office operations to become more competitive.
Casey Wian, CNN, San Diego.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: Just ahead, the exporting of America. First jobs, now technology. We'll tell you about the latest American innovation that's being shipped overseas. And in our Face Off tonight, the document that helped the 9/11 hijackers board our planes. A debate over one of the most contentious issues facing Congress as it struggles to pass an intelligence bill.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ANNOUNCER: LOU DOBBS TONIGHT continues. Sitting in for Lou Dobbs, Kitty Pilgrim.
PILGRIM: In a moment, we'll have tonight's Face Off on whether illegal aliens in this country should be able to have driver's licenses.
But, first a look at some of the top stories tonight.
Severe storms across the Midwest and eastern half of the country are interfering with Thanksgiving travel for millions of Americans. Several inches of snow are clogging roadways from Kansas to Michigan. That snow plus thunderstorms in the South and Northeast have caused flight delays across the country.
The Army National Guard reportedly is struggling to meet its goals for recruiting new members. "USA Today" says the Guard recruited 2,500 troops last month, more than 30 percent below its target. National Guard troops and reservists make up nearly half of the 138,000 U.S. troops in Iraq.
And a recount in Washington State's gubernatorial race has found Republican Dino Rossi won by only 42 votes. The first vote count had him ahead by 261 votes. Now Democrats are expected to call for another recount.
President Bush says he remains committed to reaching a compromise on the 9/11 intelligence bill that is now stalled in Congress. Now that bill has been blocked by some House Republicans who are demanding, among other things, a provision that would prevent illegal aliens from obtaining driver's license. Now this issue is a compelling one because some of the September 11 hijackers illegally obtained driver's licenses, and it is the center of tonight's Face Off.
Now joining me tonight is Mike Cutler, a fellow at the Center for Immigration Studies, and he's also a former special agent with the INS. And Marc Rotenberg, executive director of the Electronic Privacy Information Center joins us. Mr. Rotenberg is in our Washington studios.
And welcome to you both. Let's start with you, Marc, because you are farthest away, where do you stand on this issue with the driver's licenses? Should it even be in this bill?
MARC ROTENBERG, PRES., ELEC. PRIVACY INFORMATION CNTR.: Well, I think it's important first of all to understand that a lot of steps have been taken, post-9/11, to improve identification and particularly of people entering the country. The provision in this bill is really a debate over whether we're also going to have a national ID card. And I think it's unfortunate that it's being pushed through in the context of the 9/11 reforms because it was not a recommendation from the 9/11 Commission. In fact, Chairman Kean made quite clear that this was not a proposal he would favor. So while I think we certainly need to do more to improve identification, I think trying to pass through a measure that would create a national ID card at this point in time is a big mistake.
PILGRIM: So you're saying not driver's license but maybe an ID card, is that what you're saying?
ROTENBERG: Well, I'm saying that I think more can be done by the states to reduce the risk of fraud and counterfeiting. Part of the problem we have today is a lot of the identity cards that are issued by the states are too easy to counterfeit simply, and that is what the 9/11 hijackers were able to do. And so we certainly want to change that.
But at the same time to say that the cards should be integrated with law enforcement databases or should be integrated with immigration databases or even tax databases -- you know there was a proposal this week still in the spending measure to allow chairmen of powerful House committees to get access to tax records, that kind of expansion of government access to personal information would be just a terrible mistake.
PILGRIM: Let's get you in on this, Michael. And privacy is, of course, a concern for everyone.
MIKE CUTLER, FELLOW, CNTR. FOR IMMIGRATION STUDIES: Privacy has to be a concern for all of us. But to start talking about tax laws when we're talking about driver's licenses is to go off the subject. The real bottom line is that we know that we do use driver's licenses as a de facto national ID.
You can't even come into this building without showing a driver's license. You gain access to airplanes. You gain access to trains. You get access to all sorts of place based on a driver's license. And all that we want to have happen is to make certain that a person is who he or she claims to be. You know, I spent 30 years arresting bad guys, half of my career arresting drug traffickers, terrorists and murderers, and most of these folks have multiple identification, multiple names.
I've said that when a good guy gets up, he goes through his clothing to figure out what to wear. The bad guys go through their stuff to figure out who they want to be. And I think the driver's licenses are critical because we accept them as secure identification when, in fact, it's not secure. You know, the only thing worse than no security is false security.
PILGRIM: Let me ask you, Michael. I know you even approve more data on these cards, on a driver's license or a national identity card, you want some biological data also?
CUTLER: Well, what I would ideally like to see is to have driver's licenses linked to biometrics so that it would also help to protect against identity theft, which is currently the fastest growing white collar crime in America. And I'd like to see a national clearinghouse for all 50 states and U.S. possessions so that people could not get driver's licenses in different states to obscure their identities. And I think this would help to make us a lot safer and certainly the terrorists understood that this is where there was a major hole in the system.
PILGIRM: Marc, why not more information on a card, and why not have the databases share that information, it does seem like a compelling argument?
ROTENBERG: Sure, but I think it's important to understand, we're really talking about two different things here. I actually agree with Mike, that we want to reduce the likelihood of counterfeiting for identity documents. No interest is served when it's easy to duplicate or falsify an identity document. And he's right, of course, identity theft is a serious problem in this country.
But the proposal in the House measure that's currently holding up intelligence reform actually goes quite a bit further than this, because what the proponents have in mind is integrating that identity card with federal agency databases, so that it becomes possible when you provide this identity document to access other records that currently would not be accessible. And that is a very different type of function than we currently permit with a driver's license.
So I really think we need to separate out these two issues. You can push for the first and end up with a second and realize that now you have a national ID card that you never intended.
PILGRIM: Well, let me push you a little bit on this, tax records aside, which I think is a separate issue. Why not link the identity card with, say, FBI files, wanted records, police records, things like that?
ROTENBERG: Well, of course, you can do that, but then you really change the nature of the society. I mean, the United States has really been quite remarkable as other countries have adopted identity cards, the U.S. has resisted this. And we have said in effect that we think it's inconsistent with our constitutional tradition, with our Bill of Rights.
And I'd like to point out, by the way, the other countries, quite significantly, that have adopted identity documents like Spain, like in Israel, like Indonesia, have all faced serious terrorist attacks in recent years. So the belief that if you have an identity document, you remove the risk of a terrorist attack, I think that's just false.
PILGIRM: Marc, Mike brings up this great point...
CUTLER: But you know, England is now talking about doing just this sort of thing. And you know, the real bottom line is also that we are trying to gain control over our borders. We can't secure the country until we control the border. And we can't control the border purely from within the interior of the United States, if you want to gain control we also have to deal with interiir enforcement of the immigration laws to go after people who are here that get beyond the Border Patrol or get past the inspector at teh airport.
And I've said before on your program, that nobody would break into an amusement park if they couldn't go on the rides. So I don't believe that we ought to allowing people who are illegally in the United States to drive cars and do all those other things that enable them to function, quote, "normally" while they are within the country in violation of law.
So I think this is another reason why you want to be able to integrate this. And the other point taht I quickly want to make is about half of all people on the FBI's 10 most-wanted list are arrested during motor vehicle stops. So I think it's really important that when we put somebody behind the wheel of a car, which, after all, is a privilege, not a right that we really know who we're dealing with.
PILGRIM: Let me just ask, and it seems a pressing question to me, is all of this worked holding up the intelligence bill, Marc?
ROTENBERG: Well, that's really a very important question right now, and I think there's a lot of frustration in Washington that the efforts to prevent future 9/11s, which everyone supports, are being linked by some of the House leadership with an effort to crack down on immigration.
And these are really two distinct issues. If they want to pursue those issues, they should have the freedom to do it, but it should be taken apart from the debate over the 9/11 legislation, where there really is bipartisan support right now to pass a bill.
PILGRIM: All right. Marc, we're going to have to close it here. Let me give one last word to Michael.
CUTLER: Well, again, we need to control the borders, we need to know who's here. We're using these as de facto national IDs, and I think that it is appropriate to do it now because if we wait for later, you know how Congress works, they may never get around to this issue. I think it's important to strike while the iron is hot.
PILGRIM: Important issues, thank you very much for joining us, Marc Rotenberg and Michael Cutler, thank you, gentlemen.
CUTLER: Thank you, have a happy Thanksgiving.
ROTENBERG: Thank you.
Well, we want to hear from you on this very important issue in our poll. And we are asking: Do you believe the intelligence reform bill must contain a provision that prevents illegal aliens from obtaining driver's licenses? And the answer, yes or no. Cast your vote at cnn.com/lou. And we'll bring you the results later on in this show.
Now we have reported extensively here on the shipment of American jobs to cheap foreign labor markets. Tonight the exporting of America threatens not only American jobs but also some of the most promising new technologies.
Bill Tucker reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BILL TUCKER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): What if you could transform this waste into diesel fuel, water for irrigration, fertilizer for crops, and what if in the process you could completely and safely remove mad cow disease from the food chain, produce more energy than it takes to make the energy, and be environmentally clean? It can and is being done at this plant in Carthage, Missouri.
The question is how much longer will it be done in America?
BRIAN APPEL, CHANGING WORLD TECHNOLOGIES: We need a lot of money to build a lot of these plants. And if we have to go make taht money in Europe and Canada, then we'll do that and hopefully there will still be a level playing field in the future that we can come back to.
TUCKER: It's a matter of policy in the United States to support fuel produced from soybeans and animal fat or fuel additives from corn such as ethanol. Fuel from other sources such as agricultural waste does not meet the definition of a biofuel and doesn't qualify for U.S. subsidies.
Europe has a much broader set of definitions for biofuels, qualifying at least 10 different sources for subsidies. So the technology is going there.
BARRY HANSON, AUTHOR, "ENERGY POWER SHIFT": We run a tremendous economic risk by allowing these technologies to be developed in other countries where they have just a more of a long-term interest in their fuel self-sufficiency.
TUCKER: Canada actively supports biofuel technology with several Canadian companies already receiving government subsidies. But Canada is especially interested in a process developed by Changing World Technologies, which makes use of farm and animal waste, and not food stock. Ireland is interested as well. And more than just an emerging American technology could be lost here. Jobs are also at stake.
APPEL: These are biological refineries that, instead of producing waste from crude oil which comes from the ground, this is from the waste that's already up here. So these are good, high-paying jobs and technical jobs too.
TUCKER: And there are broader economic benefits, take the trade deficit, for example, more than $200 million of our deficit is in the form of energy purchased from overseas.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
TUCKER: If we made it here, that would be $200 million in the American economy, and not in the pockets of foreign economies -- Kitty.
PILGRIM: Sounds like a good idea. Thanks, Bill Tucker.
Still ahead here tonight, three of the countries top political journalists will join us.
And then Iran's nuclear ambitions, former CIA analyst Ken Pollack joins us to talk about his new book "The Persian Puzzle." Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PILGRIM: Iran may be trying to renege on an agreement to limit its nuclear activities. Iran says it wants to continue some uranium enrichment activities for research purposes. Now, critics say Iran is determined to develop nuclear weapons. Earlier, I spoke with former CIA analyst Ken Pollack. He is the author of "The Persian Puzzle: The Conflict Between Iran and America".
I asked him whether he believes Iran has curbed its nuclear activities?
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KEN POLLACK, AUTHOR, "THE PERSIAN PUZZLE": Well, I think that there is reason to believe that Iran may have temporarily suspended its nuclear program as ElBaradei is suggesting. Right now it is in Iran's interest. There's a great deal of speculation as to what the Iranians are thinking. But at the end of the days, I don't think this is a solution to the problem. The Iranians insist they have the right to nuclear weapons and the capability and technology to build them and nothing is going to stop them from doing so.
PILGRIM: This will eventually end up in the Security Council?
Will it have to come to that kind of measure?
POLLACK: Well, that's a really good question Kitty. I think the biggest problem there is twofold, first, you've got the Europeans who very much want to threaten the Iranians with taking this to the Security Council. They're trying to convince the Iranians to do the right thing. But by the same token because the Iranians are intransigent and because the Europeans haven't been willing in the past to follow through on threats, I think the Iranians may try to call their bluff. And add to that the fact it's not clear that the security council would do anything, the Chinese have been stating categorically they refuse to sanction Iran. If that's the case, the only way to solve this problem will be to deal with it outside the U.N. process.
PILGRIM: Lets broaden this out a bit, because I read your book, and thought it was fabulous in it's ability to draw in the psychology of the Iranian people in terms of their history. Have we reached an impasse with Iran because we're of two different minds the United States and Iran?
POLLACK: Right now it is clear, the Iranian people are fiercely nationalistic and see possession of nuclear weapons as being critical to their prestige and sense of their self. And the mere fact that the United States which has been their adversary for so long is trying to prevent that, makes many Iranians want the nuclear weapons even more. The one thing that the United States has going for, it in fact the Western world has going for it is that Iranians have a very weak economy today. And there are a number of Iranians will tell you the biggest priority is not nuclear weapons, it's their economy. And so if we can convince Iran that economically it will be much better off without nuclear weapons than with, I think we've got a real chance to convince Iranians they ought to put their efforts into their economic programs and not nuclear weapons.
PILGRIM: Harkening back to the economics speech, it was sort of a polarizing position, do we have to make special steps to ameliorate the distance that we created between the country or do you think a hard line will actually work better to bring the Iranians around?
POLLACK: The problem with the Iranians unfortunately, Kitty, is the answer is always both. I think that to some extent a hard line will be necessary with them. As I said, the Europeans have never been willing to follow through on the threats to the Iranians, as a result the Iranians have walked all over them. And I think that there has to be a real threat of sanctions. The Iranians have to believe they're going to pay a price in terms of their economy, if they continue to go down this road. By the same tokens the only way to convince the Iranians to move in a more progressive direction is if they believe the United States is willing to make accommodations to them. In other words, if they give up their nuclear program, the United States has to be willing to start paring back on the sanctions and dealing with other issues of concern to Iran.
PILGRIM: Very, very complicated stuff, and thank you very much for bringing your insight into this issue, Ken Pollack, thank you.
POLLACK: Thank you, Kitty.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: And coming up, I'll talk with three of the country's best political journalists about the Bush agenda in the next four years. That and a great deal more still ahead here tonight.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PILGRIM: It was one year ago tonight that President Bush was preparing to leave for his secret Thanksgiving visit to Iraq. This year, the president is expected to stay at his ranch in Crawford, Texas.
And joining me now from Washington are three of this country's very best political journalists, Roger Simon of "U.S. News & World Report," Karen Tumulty of "Time" magazine, and Ron Brownstein of "Los Angeles Times."
Thank you all for being here.
Lets start with the week, it's been a really interesting news cycle. Usually a very dull week, and yet we have this intelligence bill that's been held up dominated the news coverage.
Let's start with you Roger, what do you think of this issue? And do you think it will become a nonissue any time in the near future?
ROGER SIMON, U.S. NEWS & WORLD REPORT: I think it's going to hang around. But there are signs that the Bush administration may not feel that this bill is worth fighting for. After all, conservatives don't like it, conservatives are a major part of George Bush's power base. It strips power from Donald Rumsfeld who's close to the president.
And though the president and the vice president lobbied for it, we now hear members of Congress say they don't care about it all that much. So, I certainly wouldn't expect it to pass when the Congress comes back in early December. And it may be months, or longer if it ever passes at all.
PILGRIM: Is this that a problem, Karen?
KAREN TUMULTY, TIME: Well, it is a problem as long as you have the 9/11 commission out there lobbying for it. As long as you have a lot of the 9/11 victim survivors lobbying for it. And, of course, coming right after a presidential election that was really focused on President George Bush's ability to fight terrorism, to not pass this bill, I think, could become a real problem.
SIMON: You know, Kitty, what's extraordinary about this situation is that there really isn't anyone involved who disagrees that if the bill was brought to the Senate and House floor today, as written, without a word changed, it would pass. And what's really holding it up is the reluctance of the House Republican leadership to pass a bill for which there is significant opposition within their own caucus. We don't if there's a majority, but clearly a significant portion of the caucus opposed.
And what's striking here is that the president so far has been willing to accept that judgment and not in effect demand that they bring up to the floor a bill he says he supports that has majority support in both chambers.
If he is willing to accept that standard, in essence saying that not only does the bill have a majority in the support in the House overall, but a majority of Republicans, some of his other priorities in the second term may get a lot tougher, particularly immigration, maybe healthcare, even Social Security.
PILGRIM: Let me ask you another thing, though, based on the intelligence -- failure of the intelligence bill to pass. Does it create the perception that we're dropping the ball somehow, the president was calling on Porter Goss for 50 percent increase in the number of intelligence analysts and clandestine operators. Is this too much, too late? Are we behind the ball one more time on intelligence?
TUMULTY: Well Kitty, the White House says that this is to respond to the 9/11 commission, in part because this bill hasn't passed. The fact is, the 9/11 commission did not ask for or suggest anything like this. This would be the most dramatic expansion of the CIA's intelligence gathering capabilities since World War II.
There's some enthusiasm about the president's proposal, but there's also some skepticism as well, because he does not set a timetable for this, nor does he indicate in any fashion that he's going ask for the massive amounts of money that this would require.
RON BROWNSTEIN, LOS ANGELES TIMES: Also, to some extent, it's some off the point of the 9/11 commission which I think was focused on coordination of information. I mean, there's a lot of information that we obtained from a lot of different sources. And clearly one of the problems that they identify was the left hand knowing what the right hand is doing and having all of this come together in some usable way.
That is the essence of their recommendation on the National Counterterrorism Center as well as the national director of intelligence. The goal in both cases is to encourage greater coordination.
Now, originally the White House was skeptical of, at least the overall director idea, feeling that it would add another layer of bureaucracy. During the campaign they felt compelled to endorse it. And as Roger said, I think this entire episode is leaving people with a degree of uncertainty again about whether the president is truly committed to this idea.
SIMON: One of the things that the president is asking for in this measure that I they found intriguing was a much belated request for having intelligence analysts who actually speak Arabic. One of the most depressing findings of those who have investigated 9/11 is so many opportunities to uncover this plot slip through our fingers, because we don't have enough Arabic speaking intelligence officers.
Not all of our enemies speak English. It's a real problem for us. They speak their native languages. And we're going to have to speak the native languages too if we're going to maintain a high level of intelligence.
TUMULTY: But Roger, it's not like there are a lot of these people who are out there running around who are both skilled in intelligence and multilingual. That's one of the problems that can you ask for this, but it isn't like they can all report for duty Monday.
BROWNSTEIN: You got to start the ball going sometime.
PILGRIM: Let me change subjects here for a second, because I do want to get it in, the Ukraine, and we had that extraordinary statement today by secretary of state Colin Powell saying we would not recognize the election of Ukraine as legitimate. A very strong statement. Does it put us at odds with Russia a bit in that Russia backed a candidate that we're not recognizing at this point? Or extensively backed candidate? BROWNSTEIN: Yes, it was a real -- as you say, it was real ratcheting up the language from Colin Powell from what the administration was saying even a day ago. And it directly does.
It's a very awkward situation in many ways. I mean, obviously Russian President Putin has a lot invested in the current prime minister winning this election, and we have invested a lot in Putin, at least President Bush has over the last 4 years. So we are, I think, directly in conflict with him.
His intervention, Putin's intervention in this election was extraordinary, and sustained. And so there really is no way around it. If we are going to say this is illegitimate, we are heading for a good deal of conflict with the Russian president.
SIMON: It was extraordinary that Colin Powell himself made this statement. Colin Powell doesn't come out in front of the cameras live all that much. Donald Rumsfeld does it about once an hour. I think it was a statement by the administration saying we really think this election was illegitimate. And we're not going to settle for it.
PILGRIM: Again, a very extraordinary statement and we'll keep our eyes on that as the week moves on. Thanks very much for joining us. We have to close it there. Roger Simon, Karen Tumulty, and Ron Brownstein. Thanks a log. And have a great Thanksgiving.
TUMULTY: You, too, Kitty.
PILGRIM: Still ahead, the results of tonight's poll and a preview of what's ahead for tomorrow.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PILGRIM: Now the results of tonight's poll. 87 percent of you believe the intelligence reform bill must contain a provision that prevents illegal aliens from obtaining driver's licenses.
Well thanks for being with us tonight. Please join us tomorrow for a special report honoring our troops this Thanksgiving. Veteran's Affairs Secretary Anthony Principi will join us.
And we salute some of the men and women serving this country all around the world. General David Grange is my guest.
And the people working here at home to keep America running. We'll have their unique stories.
For all of us here, have a wonderful and safe holiday. Good night from New York. "ANDERSON COOPER 360" is next.
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