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Lou Dobbs Tonight
Iraqi Politicians Demand Delay in Elections; British Black Guard Joins Central Iraq Operations; Ukrainian Opposition Leader Requests New Election
Aired November 26, 2004 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KITTY PILGRIM, HOST (voice-over): Tonight, a new challenge to American policy in Iraq. Fifteen Iraqi political parties call for a delay in Iraq's elections in January.
In Ukraine, a dramatic meeting about the disputed presidential election. Tens of thousands of people continue their pro-democracy protests.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The international community is watching very carefully.
PILGRIM: Tonight, foreign policy expert Ian Bremmer will join us to talk about Ukraine, Iraq and other challenges facing President Bush.
Shopping madness sweeps the nation. Tens of millions of people jam stores, looking for bargains that, in many cases, already have disappeared.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You've got to be a dedicated shopper. You've got to know what you want. You've got to grab it and you've got to move.
PILGRIM: And middle-class squeeze: Congress may slash federal grants for a million college students, even though tuition rates are soaring.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT for Friday, November 26. Here now for an hour of news, debate and opinion, sitting in for Lou Dobbs, who is on vacation, Kitty Pilgrim.
PILGRIM: Good evening. Tonight, more than a dozen Iraqi political parties are demanding a delay in the Iraqi general election. That election is only two months away. Those parties say the Iraqi government cannot guarantee security at polling places.
Two U.S. Marines were killed in Falluja as they searched buildings for insurgents. And in Baghdad, four employees of a British security firm were killed when insurgents attacked the Green Zone.
Karl Penhaul reports. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KARL PENHAUL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Fifteen of Iraq's new political parties held a meeting this afternoon in Baghdad. They came out of that meeting and have issued a call for a delay in nationwide elections.
As you know, the date for those elections had been set as January the 30th. But the parties in their meeting today decided that the timetable was too short, that the two-month timetable between now and then wasn't enough time to prepare for the elections, to campaign for the elections and also to create a secure security environment so that all Iraqis could enjoy their freedom to vote.
Amongst the political figures there at the meeting was Adnan Pachachi. He is a former president of the Iraqi Governing Council and well liked by the previous coalition authorities here.
ADNAN PACHACHI, FORMER PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: At this moment, it would be in the interests of all concerned to give a chance for those who have not yet started to participate to properly review their position, and also to give a chance to the government to make some substantial improvements in the security situation.
PENHAUL: Now, in the last few days, we have heard of Sunni Muslim political parties calling either for boycott or postponement of elections. The difference today, in addition to the Sunni Muslim parties, some secular parties and also the two main Kurdish parties joining the call for an election postponement.
Karl Penhaul, CNN, Baghdad.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: More gruesome discoveries in the northern Iraqi city of Mosul. The military says another six bodies have been found in that city. That brings the total to 46 bodies in the last eight days.
Insurgents launched a series of attacks in Mosul in a failed attempt to stop the U.S. offensive in Falluja. U.S. troops hunting the insurgents believe terrorists murdered Iraqi national guardsmen, police, and civilians working with American soldiers.
Five thousand U.S. Marines, Iraqi commandos and British troops are raiding dozens of insurgent hideouts south of Baghdad. The operation is led by the 24th Marine Expeditionary Unit. Members of the British Black Watch regiment are also taking part.
ITN's Harry Smith reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
HARRY SMITH, ITV REPORTER (voice-over): They've been told to go in hard, and they didn't hold back. Instead of winning hearts and minds, they slung sledgehammers and stun grenades.
They rounded up all the males above the age of 14, an experienced one youngster obviously found terrifying.
Their targets were the homes of former Saddam loyalists across the Euphrates River from Camp Dogwood, dangerous territory, which until now had been considered a no-go area.
But by first light, the Black Watch was in complete control.
(on camera) For most of these soldiers, this is their first chance to go on the offensive. For the past three weeks, they've suffered almost daily rocket attacks into Dogwood Camp. Most of these attacks came from here. This now is their chance to hit back.
(voice-over) It was one of the largest attacks by British troops since the war here officially ended: 700 soldiers, 116 vehicles. I was one of a small group of journalists who had seen it through the planning stage and the careful rehearsals.
But at the end of the day, only a tiny quantity of hidden arms and ammunition was seized. The army won't say if any of those detained are on its list of high-value targets.
Harry Smith, ITV News, central Iraq.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: Turning to the elections standoff in Ukraine, the opposition leader tonight is demanding a rerun of the disputed presidential election. He made the demand after meeting with the outgoing president and his opponent, who was declared the winner.
Tens of thousands of opposition supporters have continued their protests in Kiev for the fifth straight day. Ukraine lies in a strategic position between Russia and NATO countries such as Poland.
Jill Dougherty reports from the Ukrainian capital of Kiev -- Jill.
JILL DOUGHERTY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Kitty, today just this evening, in fact, we had the most important, really, moment here in the last few days.
And that is the two candidates, the two men who each claimed to be legitimately the president, should be the president of the Ukraine. And that is Viktor Yushchenko, the opposition candidate, and Viktor Yanukovych, who is the government-backed candidate. For the first time, they sat down, face to face, five days into this very tense standoff.
They -- they spoke for three hours, and the man who brokered that meeting, Javier Solana from the E.U., said that the atmosphere between both of those men, as you might expect, was cold.
Now, what did they come up with? Well, they said that, No. 1, those demonstrations that we've been reporting on now for days, those can continue. People have the right to do that, but they will not be able to block government buildings anymore. Another important thing they agreed, no violence, no force to be used against the demonstrators. And then the last thing is they have agreed to put together working teams that will be negotiating and trying to work out the next step.
That's where the question marks come in. Solana says there is a possibility they might even move toward new elections. He was more diplomatic.
But then later, Viktor Yushchenko, the opposition candidate, went down to the square, talked to his supporters, and said they actually had agreed that they are going to hold new elections. And that they'd also a new Central Election Commission that would have equal representation from both sides.
Don't forget that the big allegations here were of vote fraud, massive vote fraud. And -- and Yushchenko is saying they're going to try to eliminate that and in this, what would be the third round.
So Kitty, tonight, some progress, no guarantee of anything, but at least we know the demonstrations will continue. They hopefully will continue to be peaceful, and they're moving toward some type of an agreement on this.
PILGRIM: All right, thanks very much, Jill Dougherty reporting from Kiev. Thanks, Jill.
The election crisis in Ukraine is just the latest of several major foreign policy challenges facing the new Bush administration. And today President Bush spoke to reporters in Crawford, Texas.
White House correspondent Suzanne Malveaux reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): President Bush dropped by Crawford's Coffee Station for a burger and a couple of questions. Most notably on Mr. Bush's plate: the future of Iraq.
More than a dozen Iraqi political parties are calling for a six- month delay of Iraq's presidential elections. Any possible postponement is seen by the Bush administration as a misstep for the region and a win for the Iraqi insurgents.
BUSH: The Iraqi election commission has scheduled elections in January, and I would hope they'd go forward in January.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Democracy for Ukraine! Democracy for Ukraine!
BUSH: A handful of pro-democracy demonstrators gathered outside the Coffee Station to support Mr. Bush's position on the Ukrainian elections. The White House considers the recent presidential elections there a fraud and a blow to democracy in that region.
Mr. Bush and other world leaders are urging the Ukrainian authorities to come clean.
BUSH: The election's in doubt. The international community is watching very carefully.
MALVEAUX: The president also issued a warning to Iran. Through talks with the European Union, Tehran has pledged to freeze its nuclear program. But the White House is skeptical.
BUSH: The only good deal is one that's verifiable.
MALVEAUX: Mr. Bush is even using some of his political capital to help his closest ally, British Prime Minister Tony Blair, bring peace to Northern Ireland. The president said he called the province's Protestant leader to urge him to share power with his longtime Catholic enemies.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MALVEAUX: And President Bush will continue his diplomatic efforts this week when he takes a quick trip to Canada and then holds meetings in Washington with the leaders of Nigeria and Bahrain -- Kitty.
PILGRIM: All right. Thanks very much, Suzanne Malveaux.
Now later in the show, I will talk about the foreign policy challenges facing President Bush with the president of Eurasia Group, Ian Bremmer.
But first, for more on the war in Iraq, I'm joined by General David Grange. Always good to see you, General Grange.
BRIG. GEN. DAVID GRANGE (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Good evening.
PILGRIM: Let's go through a couple of developments we have today on Iraq, and one is a group of 15 Iraqi political parties calling for a delay. How do you assess that, and is it really because of the insurgents' strength?
GRANGE: Well, it's a couple things involved here. It's a lot of the insurgent activity. Even though the activity has spread out of, let's say, places like Fallujah and a couple other hot spots extensively throughout Iraq, the coalition fights against the insurgents has increased. So it's not just an insurgent issue. It's just a lot going on in that country.
And, again, the goal is to enable three of the 18 provinces that have some problems on security to be secure before the elections take place. The other issue -- you have posturing by the different factions. The Shiites, of course, want the elections right away, the Sunnis don't, and now the Kurds are throwing in their piece of it a little bit. So it's influenced by that as well.
PILGRIM: And some have pointed out to me that 15 political parties indicates that you haven't got a strong consensus anywhere. Fifteen, in itself, speaks for itself.
GRANGE: Well, sure. And the goal, I think, is still that they have elections near the end of January. A lot of people are wringing their hands. And if security is in place to have elections, they will. If it's not, then they'll be postponed. But I think the goal is still to have them in January.
PILGRIM: Is it analogous to a balloon where you squeeze it in one place and it comes out in the other? We did have operations in Fallujah conclude fairly successfully. Now we have Mosul on our plate. How is that going, General?
GRANGE: Well -- and Fallujah is still ongoing, still a very dangerous place, people still dying, getting hurt and a lot going on there. The thousands of buildings to be searched. You know, when they capture over 200 weapons storage sites, discover 11 improvised explosive device factories, it's a lot in Fallujah that has to be controlled for quite some time, which sucks up a lot of troops.
Then again, you have Mosul getting hotter than it was. You have activity south of Baghdad, other places throughout Iraq, which is requiring a lot of coalition forces to go on the offensive. When you have in Mosul 3,000 or 4,000 police leave their posts, someone has to fill that void, and that void is filled by Iraqi military or U.S. military soldiers.
PILGRIM: How would you assess the formation of Iraqi forces at this point? They were very optimistic about it, and yet you have reports of police basically abandoning their posts in Mosul.
GRANGE: Police.
PILGRIM: Right.
GRANGE: Military doing quite well. For instance, the 1st Infantry Division, the Big Red One, the units that they have trained have done exceptionally well. It's -- the key is picking the right leaders that are vetted, that truly are leaders to their men, going through some standards of training that is better than they have received before and equipping them properly, and that's on the upswing, and that's doing very well.
The difficulty is to police. But then again, if you're in a place like Mosul and you're an Iraqi policeman and you know you're the target of the insurgents because they cannot take on the U.S., so now they take on their own more extensively than they have in the past, or just civilians, then you're fearing for your life. It is a dangerous place to work as a policeman.
PILGRIM: You always help us sort it out so well.
General David Grange.
Thank you very much.
GRANGE: My pleasure. PILGRIM: Now we've reported extensively here about France and other European countries that have refused to help the United States in Iraq, but several European nations have sent troops, and they are proving to be loyal allies of this countries.
And one of those is Denmark. The Danish parliament has voted to extend the deployment of 500 Danish troops to Iraq by another six months. Danish lawmakers also voted to increase the number of Danish troops in Afghanistan.
Still ahead tonight, shoppers gone mad. Millions of people line up in the dark for holiday bargains. An annual tradition goes to the extreme. We'll have that story.
And the middle-class squeeze. Why hundreds of thousands of college students could lose federal grant money.
That report and much more all ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PILGRIM: It's black Friday, and that's one of the biggest shopping days of the year where stores have a chance to end the year in the black. More than 130 million people will flood stores all across the country this weekend, and, with all that competition, many shoppers go to extremes to find a bargain.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Woo!
PILGRIM (voice-over): It was a coast-to-coast flurry. A drop in temperatures in the Northeast didn't keep shoppers from lining up in the dark at this Connecticut Best Buy.
In Georgia, the world's largest retailer attracted an early crowd as well.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We got up around 3:30, we made it here around 4:30, and I'm glad we did, you know, seeing how long this line is.
PILGRIM: They rushed the stores in Florida, 60 and 70 percent off signs luring American shoppers looking for the best bargains possible.
West Coast shoppers stampeded.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's 5:00 in the morning. We ran all the way across the mall from J.C. Penney's all the way to Sears.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We ran.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And we're not tired. It's exciting, though. It's like adrenaline. You're like shopping!
PILGRIM: It was the same scene in California. In Illinois, shoppers at this Chicago Kaybee Toy Store were well equipped with bags to stuff their bargains in.
And New York City was unusually crowded with shoppers, even for this time of year. The lines started at 4:00 a.m. in Times Square. Nearly 3,000 people jammed Toys 'R' Us looking for the bargains.
No bargains to be found at the reopening of famed high-end toy store FAO Schwarz, but the crowds were there.
And while we'll have to wait until the new year to tally the total, the chairman of Federated Department Stores, which owns Macy's and Bloomingdale's is counting on strong consumer confidence this holiday season.
TERRY LUNDGREN, CHAIRMAN & CEO, FEDERATED DEPARTMENT STORES: Something's a little different this year, and that is business has been a lot better, as you know, this year for us and for others, and so there's much more of a supply and demand in balance this year than there has been in the past.
While there will be sales and there will be discounts, I think it will be a little bit harder to find all of your things, if you just keep on waiting for it to go deeper and deeper on sale.
PILGRIM: Or maybe that's a nudge to get you in the door and start your shopping early.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: Shopping sales for this holiday season are expected to grow 4-1/2 percent this year to $220 billion, and that would be a little softer than last year.
Now one group is urging Americans to buy American-made products this holiday season. The nation's largest labor union is working to remind shoppers that buying products made in the USA is one way to keep jobs here at home.
Bill Tucker reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BILL TUCKER, CNN FINANCIAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): In this gift-giving season, the AFL-CIO has launched a campaign urging Americans to give the gift of a job. It's their simple reminder that when you buy American-made goods, your money goes to support American workers.
MATT BATES, AFL-CIO: There's going to be somewhere in the order of $800 million to $1 trillion spent on the holiday season this year, and we want to make sure as many of those dollars as possible go to support good-paying U.S. jobs.
TUCKER: It's the second-annual effort at reminding shoppers to look at what they buy. Last year's effort was last minute. They're a little more organized this year and have posted a Web site, shopunionmade.org, to help shoppers. The idea is not lost on consumers.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's supporting your fellow citizens, quite frankly. That's what you're doing.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You like to think that what you're contributing to is keeping somebody employed and not...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In this country.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... in this country.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And with the -- with the jobs going overseas, per se, you know, you'd like to keep it in -- U.S. made, if possible.
TUCKER: There are other Web sites beside the one the union has posted. There's buyAmerican.com or buydirectusa.com among others which promote products made here, and marketers say sticker shock need not be a problem.
SUSAN CATRAL, WE EMPLOY AMERICA: I think the fallacy is that, well, low-cost goods are good for the economy because then consumers are an opportunity to buy many, many goods at a lower cost.
But the fact is that, you know, very often, if you go and shop and you're looking at a product that's made here in the U.S. and you're comparing it to a product that's imported, there isn't a vast price gap in those two products.
TUCKER (on camera): This past September, the City of Clarksville, Tennessee, sponsored its own Buy America Campaign. The organizers there prompted to action after several industries left town for overseas shores.
Bill Tucker, CNN, New York.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: And that brings us to the subject of tonight's poll. Will you make an extra effort to buy American-made goods this holiday season? Yes or no? Cast your vote at cnn.com/lou, and we will bring you the results later in the show.
While some shoppers are doing their part to buy American, others are taking a stand on a different kind. They are not buying at all. Now an unusual group has launched a campaign to protest overconsumption in this country. It has declared today International Buy Nothing Day. Some protesters set up credit card-cutting stations outside stores, and others actually pushed empty shopping carts through Wal-Mart.
Coming up, putting the squeeze on the middle class. A million college students could have less money to pay for college if some members of Congress have their way. And a fight for control of the skies. Tonight, another American company struggling to compete against government-funded foreign competition.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PILGRIM: One proposal in the massive spending bill awaiting the president's signature could slash federal grants for one million college students. Now the measure would cut Pell grant awards at the same time that tuition continues to soar.
Lisa Sylvester has our report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LISA SYLVESTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): About five million students receive Pell grants from the federal government to help pay for their college tuition. The grants, up to $4,050, go to the students who can least afford to pay for their education.
But a proposal in the omnibus spending bill would change the eligibility formula, reducing the number of students who would qualify.
SEN. JON CORZINE (D), NEW JERSEY: It is an incredible crush against middle-class America, which is trying to make sure that their kids have that opportunity to have a better life.
SYLVESTER: Although Congress is appropriating slightly more money, so many more students are applying for Pell grants that the individual awards will be reduced.
The biggest impact will be felt by families making between $35,000 and $40,000. An estimated 90,000 students now receiving Pell grants would become ineligible. Another 1.2 million would see the rewards reduced.
And more students could see state and other grants cut because the same eligibility criteria is widely used by nonfederal programs.
MELANIE CORRIGAN, AMERICAN COUNCIL ON EDUCATION: What we see students doing, time and again, is working more or taking fewer classes, which is putting a lot more burden on their time and their attention to classes and, so unfortunately, will ask more of them and their families.
SYLVESTER: But Republicans who voted to change the rules argue that they are simply protecting the neediest students. House Education Chairman John Bainer in a statement said, "The bill also preserves hope for a future increase in the maximum Pell grant award, the amount of aid given individually to the poorest students in the nation, the students facing the hardest fight of all against soaring college tuition rates."
In a year when budget deficits pressed Congress to hold the line on discretionary spending, aid to education has become an important political point of contention.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SYLVESTER: Senator Jon Corzine led a fight in Congress to block Department of Education plans to change the tax tables used to determine eligibility, but inserting the change in the omnibus spending bill makes it nearly impossible to defeat -- Kitty.
PILGRIM: All right. Thanks very much.
Lisa Sylvester.
Coming up, we'll have the latest on the oil-for-food scandal.
Also, on the brink of Civil War? An election crisis in the Ukraine leaves the country bitterly divided. I'll be joined by International Political Expert Ian Bremmer.
And turning yesterday's science fiction into tomorrow's reality. You simply won't believe one project the Pentagon and your tax dollars are funding.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ANNOUNCER: LOU DOBBS TONIGHT continues. Sitting in for Lou Dobbs, Kitty Pilgrim.
PILGRIM: In a moment, Ian Bremmer of Eurasia Group will join us to talk about the election crisis in Ukraine and also foreign policy concerns for the Bush administration in Iran and Iraq.
But, first, a look at some of the top stories.
A major development tonight in the United Nations oil-for-food program scandal. The U.N. now says the son of Secretary General Kofi Annan was on the payroll of major contractor in the program until earlier this year.
Kojo Annan was on that payroll, despite the fact he stopped working as a consultant to Cotecna six years ago.
Highway crews in Colorado have reopened one eastbound and one westbound lane of Interstate 70 after a dangerous rock slide. Dozens of boulders, some as big as cars, crashed down on the road through Glenwood Canyon. Now, officials closed a 24-mile stretch of I-70, and luckily, no one was injured.
A U.S. Army deserter, Charles Jenkins, has been released from a military prison in Japan. Jenkins was sentenced to a month in jail for leaving his unit in 1965 and defecting to North Korea.
President Bush today talked with journalists about three major foreign policy challenges facing his administration. Iraq is scheduled to hold elections in January. But leading Iraqi politicians have called for a delay.
Iran has agreed to suspend uranium enrichment, but the White House believes Iran is determined to produce nuclear weapons.
And Ukraine could be on the brink of civil war after a disputed presidential election.
Joining me now is Ian Bremmer, president of the Eurasia Group, a political risk consulting firm.
And thanks very much for joining us tonight, Dr. Bremmer.
IAN BREMMER, PRESIDENT, EURASIA GROUP: Thank you.
PILGRIM: Let's start with Ukraine. Now, many people have rallied to the cause. We had Lech Walesa. We had Colin Powell. We had President Bush. We had Senator Lugar.
A lot of people piling on here and inserting themselves into a national election in the Ukraine. How do you assess that?
BREMMER: We do not have Russian President Vladimir Putin, of course, who quickly congratulated the prime minister, Yanukovych, for winning the election and had to back off a little bit.
One of the interesting points here is that the U.S.-Russia relationship, which was looking so strong as a strategic partnership over the last couple years after September 11 now looks like it might be at a turning point.
Just at the APEC summit we had in Chile, President Bush and National Security Adviser Rice had some difficult words for President Putin. He responded positively on the notion of moving toward consolidated authoritarianism in Russia.
Now they're on the opposite side in moving Ukraine towards Europe or keeping it in the old former Soviet bloc effectively. That's the trouble.
PILGRIM: And Putin's fingerprints are all over this election. He actually campaigned for one of the candidates, did he not?
BREMMER: He did. And, you know, Russian media is very important in Ukraine. Also, there a lot of Russians in Ukraine.
Ukraine is a split country. This isn't like a lot of the other countries in that part of the world. You have strong Catholic, Ukrainian speakers in the west of the country. You have Russian speakers, and many Russians, including a majority Russian population, Crimea and through the industrial southeast of the country.
No matter who wins this election and whether or not they have to end up -- they decide to end up holding the election again, a large number of people in Ukraine are not going to be happy.
That makes -- that makes violence more likely. And it also means that the tension for eventually governance in Ukraine is going to be very high. And that's one of the reasons why U.S.-Russia relations over this issue are going to be tense for some time. PILGRIM: So you're saying even if they resolve it, it still could be a mess?
BREMMER: Well, it's hard to resolve. I mean, you look back at U.S. elections in 2000, and I mean, clearly there were lots of irregularities, but once it was resolved, lots of people are going to be unhappy.
It's clear -- Dick Lugar said this; Colin Powell said this -- these elections were stolen. But at the same time, there were lots of and lots of Ukrainians and Russians in Donetsk and Dnepropetrovsk and Krivoy (ph) and all these other places you've never heard of that actually voted in favor of the bad guy. And that's a problem.
So someone's going to be upset. Just a couple hours ago, the mayor of Donetsk said that if the opposition ended up winning, that they would have a referendum on succeeding from Ukraine. Tensions are pretty high.
PILGRIM: Let's talk about Iran. I hate to switch countries on you so rapidly, but I know you're quite used to it. It does appear that Iran is reneging on a deal that they made with the Europeans.
The Iranian crisis, do you see it going worse more than better?
BREMMER: Well, they're now coming back today and saying, well, maybe they'll accept the deal that they just reneged on that they had agreed to. It's confusing.
PILGRIM: Where do we stand?
BREMMER: Well, first of all, Iran's not Libya. So in other words, you don't have one leader who's in charge that says, "You know what, guys? This is the way it's going to be." There's a lot of fragmentation even among the conservative people that mullahs that ostensibly run the country.
So first, let's recognize they don't have their house in order. So if we're inclined not to trust them, they'll give us lots of reasons.
PILGRIM: But President Bush today said no deal is good unless it's verifiable. Is it even possible to verify it with this kind of flip-flopping going on? We -- we want the centrifuges; we don't want the centrifuges in the deal, out of the deal. It's just been a lot of flip-flopping.
BREMMER: When I speak to senior European policymakers, they'll be the first to say they believe that the Iranians really want to have a nuclear weapons program, and what they're trying to do is slow them down.
That's because they believe that having even a limited inspections program in, even half a loaf, is better than attacking, is better than, say, surgical strikes against the nuclear program, much of which is in highly densely populated population centers. That's unacceptable for the Bush administration. And frankly, that status quo is unacceptable for the Israelis.
PILGRIM: They may haul it to the Security Council. Do you think that that is a possibility?
BREMMER: The Chinese, who've just done a memorandum of understanding with the Iranians, for the largest ever energy deal in Iran, have said they will not support comprehensive sanctions at the United Nations if it goes through the Security Council.
So you know, at this point, the Europeans don't have the kind of leverage. And the Iranians know that, which is one of the reasons they're causing the trouble there.
PILGRIM: Quickly, on Iraq, because we're almost out of time. Fifteen parties today called for a delay. How do you assess that?
BREMMER: Well, it's a lot of parties. But there are a lot of parties in Iraq, of course.
This is a problem for President Bush. On the one hand, you've got Ayatollah Sistani, the most important ayatollah in all the Muslim world, saying, "We want elections January 30." Bush saying the same thing, Prime Minister Allawi in Iraq saying the same thing.
Now you have 15 parties, including the Kurds, saying no. Well, you know what? Iraq's a fragmented country. You've got the Shia, the majority population on one side, everyone else on the other. Is that a surprise going into the elections? Absolutely not.
It's doing to be really problematic. One way or the other, lots of people are going to be upset with the eventual outcomes. At this point it now looks like it's going to be a challenge to get it done by January 30. That's really going to hurt President Bush if it happens.
PILGRIM: All right. Thank you very much, Ian Bremmer.
BREMMER: Right.
PILGRIM: In "Heroes" tonight, Army Sergeant Barrye Saylor has served in the military since he graduated from high school. He earned a Soldier's Medal for Bravery in Iraq, and he returned home to plan for a new career, building on what he learned in combat.
Casey Wian has our report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BARRYE SAYLOR, FORMER ARMY SERGEANT: There's a 90 percent chance you're going to go in a house and it's just going to be a family and you know they're talking about. But there's also that 10 percent chance that you know, you're going to walk in there, and there he is.
CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It's not Iraq. It's Fort Hood, Texas. Sergeant Barrye Saylor and his squad were among the first troops in when the war broke out. Now they train for the next mission.
SAYLOR: At this point all we focus on is Iraq. Also right now, we're on homeland security detail, which means in the same respect, we're going to be dealing with the same type of terrorists we dealt with in Iraq, but on our own soil.
WIAN: Saylor's a gunner, a team leader, and an interpreter, learning to speak Arabic training Iraqi security forces. He's also a hero, earning a Soldier's Medal for his part in saving an Iraqi civilian pinned under a car and a telephone pole.
SAYLOR: I pulled a telephone pole off, used it as a lever to pry the car up. One guy grabbed the guy under the car, pulled him out. During this, I mean, the flames crept up into the canon (ph). As soon as we got the guy out, starting burning the gas tank, I guess. One of the fuel lines went up, and the car, the whole car went up in flames.
WIAN: Saylor's training hard. But unlike the other soldiers, he likely won't go back to Iraq. Though he loves the military, in January, he plans to leave and go back to school.
SAYLOR: I'd like to get into some kind of systems or weapons development for the military. Because from being on the ground you really get an idea of what we need and what would help us best. So I really think that I could be helpful doing that.
WIAN: Saylor, his wife, Jacqueline, and son, Hayden, plan to return home to Baltimore, where he'll finish his bachelor's degree in math and physics.
Casey Wian, CNN, reporting.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: Still ahead tonight, three of the country's best political journalists join us.
Also, an escalating battle between a U.S. aerospace company and its leading competitor. Why American officials are crying foul.
And then, the Pentagon looks to develop new technology based on a science fiction classic. And we'll tell you how much money the Pentagon is investing in teleportation, next. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PILGRIM: The World Trade Organization has given final approval for the European Union, Japan and other countries to impose multimillion-dollar sanctions against the United States. The sanctions are in response to a U.S. law that fines foreign companies judged to be selling products below fair market value.
The World Trade Organization has ruled that law illegal, and the White House is working to repeal it. But until then, President Bush says the United States will comply with the WTO.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BUSH: We've worked hard to comply with the WTO. I think it's important that all nations comply with WTO rulings. I work with Congress to get it in compliance. As you might remember, we worked on the FISC/ETI bill because of the WTO ruling.
We expect the WTO, as well, to treat our trading partners as they treat us. And that's why, for example, I filed complaint on the Airbus situation. We believe that the subsidies for Airbus are unfair for U.S. companies such as Boeing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PILGRIM: The battle between Boeing and Airbus is about to enter a new and politically decisive phase. Airbus wants to produce a new airliner to compete against Boeing's Dreamliner passenger jet.
And Christine Romans reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Boeing's new Dreamliner is its best chance to retake a lost lead in global aviation.
But European rival Airbus is doing all it can to prevent that. It's seeking European government aid for a new plane designed to kill the Dreamliner. And what has Boeing and the U.S. crying foul.
REP. JAY INSLEE (D), WASHINGTON: What we're talking about is an economic poison. And that poison is a direct launch aid subsidy essentially cash, a risk-free, no-interest loan paid before the first bolt is tightened on these airplanes that would never have to be repaid if the plane does not become commercially successful.
That is a type of assistance that is clearly illegal under WTO.
ROMANS: The view from Europe? So long as Boeing gets state and federal tax breaks and government contracts, it's going to seek risk- free European government handouts as long as it can.
RICHARD ANDULARA, AEROSPACE ANALYST, TEAL GROUP: From Airbus's standpoint, basically, it's making hay while the sun shines. I think they're aware that government aid for new industrial products is basically kind of an anachronism in this day and age, but may as well take advantage while you can and continue to erode Boeing's market share.
ROMANS: In fact, Airbus has delivered 261 planes this year, overtaking Boeing's 238 deliveries.
Making matters worse for Boeing, the French government is reportedly pushing for a merger between Airbus parent company EADS and French company Thales to create a global aerospace giant.
(END VIDEOTAPE) ROMANS: Now, under WTO rules, the U.S. and the European Commission have one more week to resolve this subsidies issue before it goes to court. And many fear that step could result in a costly ruling against both manufacturers.
For now, some say the best hope for reaching a compromise out of court is the new European Commissioner trade commissioner, a Brit and a close political ally of Prime Minister Tony Blair -- Kitty.
PILGRIM: Thanks very much, Christine.
Well, the Pentagon has invested huge sums of money to ensure American troops can fly around to trouble spots around the world. And now scientists are looking into ways to transport troops even faster, using technology normally associated with science fiction.
Pentagon correspondent Barbara Starr has our report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BARBARA STARR, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): On the starship Enterprise, all Captain Kirk and his "Star Trek" crew just have to signal Scottie the engineer to beam them up with the pull of a lever.
LEONARD NIMOY, ACTOR: Energize.
STARR: Instantly, they are transported to distant planets. Could the rest of us ever do that? The U.S. military wants to know.
The Air Force, home of the most high-tech fighters and center of UFO speculation, is exploring strange new worlds and going where the Pentagon has not gone before.
The Air Force gave Warp Drive Metrics of Las Vegas, Nevada, 35 $25,000 to study the physics of teleportation. Yes, the transport of persons or inanimate objects across space.
But the Air Force isn't snickering, and even insists in a statement, "We don't do science fiction; we do science." Adding that many current weapons started as ideas perceived to be science fiction, such as airplanes, lasers and stealth technology.
And although the Air Force says it's not going to spend any more money on the project, some physicists are already rolling their eyes.
IVAN OELRICH, FEDERATION OF AMERICAN SCIENTISTS: There are some things that really are silly ideas. And just because one idea that everybody thought was silly turns out to be right, that doesn't mean all the other silly ideas might be right.
STARR: Light beams do exist in our lives already: the laser scanner at the grocery checkout, at voting machines, at customs checkpoints. There is even promising research to see if airborne lasers could shoot down incoming enemy ballistic missiles.
But this government-funded study looks at very advanced ideas: disembodied transport, psychic transport through mental power, and movement by altering time and space dimensions.
The Warp Drive Metrics report looks impressive: lots of calculations, discussions of black holes, worm holes, and quantum physics. It even questions whether your soul can be transported across the galaxies with your body.
(on camera) Intergalactic transport would be very handy stuff for future space explorers and soldiers trying to get from one place to another in a big hurry. But for now, most of us will be staying in this galaxy.
Barbara Starr, CNN, firmly on planet Earth.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: And still ahead, we'll beam up three of the country's very best political journalists with their take on calls for delay in the Iraqi election and the political crisis in Ukraine. And how the United States should respond. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PILGRIM: Joining me now from Washington are three of the country's leading political journalists. Ron Brownstein is national political correspondent for the "Los Angeles Times." Karen Tumulty is national political correspondent for "TIME" magazine. And Roger Simon is political editor for "U.S. News & World Report."
And thank you all for being here.
ROGER SIMON, POLITICAL EDITOR, "U.S. NEWS & WORLD REPORT": Thanks, Kitty.
KAREN TUMULTY, NATIONAL POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT, "TIME": Hi, Kitty.
PILGRIM: We'll start, you know, we'll start with foreign policy because it seems to be dominating the news today. In fact, the three topics that President Bush spoke about, when he emerged from his post- holiday break, was to talk about foreign policy.
So let's start with the Ukraine. And let's talk about where we stand here. We've seen an enormous amount of the United States weighing in on this election. We had Powell; we had Senator Lugar. We've had a lot of comment. President Bush commenting about this election.
It's fairly unusual for U.S. officials to be commenting on a national election in another part of the world. And yet here we have it. Where do we stand? Let's start with you, Karen.
TUMULTY: Well, at the same time, they are -- are saying that they think that this election was handled fraudulently, not to put too fine of a point on it.
It's more interesting, in some ways, to watch what's going on behind the scenes here, because U.S. officials are very anxious to portray this as a question of democracy functioning.
But, in fact, the dynamic now between Vladimir Putin and this administration is also quite interesting to watch. Because not only has he -- now he, of course, has staked his claim on the other side of this dispute. But he is not only -- is somebody who has built a strong personal relationship with President Bush, but somebody who we very badly need in the war on terror.
So there -- this is really being played out on sort of two levels. One, a question of democracy in the Ukraine, but also another in terms of sort of the east-west tensions, the sort of tensions that we really haven't seen since the end of the cold war.
RON BROWNSTEIN, NATIONAL POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT, "L.A. TIMES": And Kitty, if I could jump in there. What's interesting about that is, as we saw in the presidential campaign this fall and certainly in the acceptance speech in New York City, President Bush has argued that promoting democracy should be the cornerstone of American foreign policy into the new century.
And Russia stands as sort of the -- as one of the big exceptions in that, in that we have seen, over the last few years, Putin move to centralize control, taken a lot of steps that have alarmed reformers both at home and around the world.
And you wonder to what extent this confrontation in the Ukraine will crystallize our own -- our own doubts about the direction he's pursuing at home and the way it fits in to what President Bush has argued is his sort of ultimate foreign policy priority.
SIMON: All right. I think Ron makes a good point. We now see ourselves as protectors of democracies everywhere, which is why Senator Lugar and Secretary Powell speak so freely about a democratic election, or the lack of a democratic election in a foreign country.
And this is directly opposed to the way that Putin sees the institutions of democracy. He's become more authoritarian as the years have gone by. The press has become less free in Russia as the years have gone by.
And the United States, frankly, feels that it's now time to stand up to Putin before he does, basically, a power grab in a neighboring country.
It's no secret that Putin came to Ukraine and campaigned for Yanukovych, that Russian TV, which beams into Ukraine, was heavily for Yanukovych. And that basically, Russia interfered with another country's elections and we're not going to stand for it.
PILGRIM: Well, the fact that we've drawn a line in the sand, basically, over the Ukraine, perhaps a little surprising. This tug of war between two superpowers over this election really wasn't something anyone could foresee. It's a surprise.
BROWNSTEIN: And it's not just us. I mean, what's interesting is this is a case where, after all the tensions of the first term, the president is very much on the same page with the major European powers who have raised similar concerns.
Obviously, there are limits to how much any outside power at this point can influence the decision, but I think there's no question, as you look at the decision by the court, by the supreme court there and the maneuvering that's going on, that all of this outside pressure does have some influence, and that probably does encourage both President Bush and the Europeans to keep -- keep the heat on.
PILGRIM: And you're seeing great solidarity on that point, and yet in Iran, there is a split of opinion between Europeans and U.S. Policy. We've seen Iran flip-flop several times on deals with the Europeans. I guess now the latest is that they have said OK and acquiesced on the issue of centrifuges.
But will we eventually come to the same conclusion as the Europeans on Iran? What's your assessment on that?
TUMULTY: Well, I actually don't think that that is likely, because this administration has made it very clear from the beginning that they just do not trust any deal that the Iranians are -- are claiming to be making right now.
And certainly, we saw last week that it was like a day after the announcement of the deal, that Secretary Powell was coming forward with -- with new intelligence regarding other steps the Iranians had taken, trying to -- trying to miniaturize nuclear warheads so that they could fit on the tip of a missile.
It -- there's clearly a lot of mistrust on the part of this administration, on any deal that Iran is going to be a part of at this point.
SIMON: And Iran has become both frightened and emboldened by our invasion of Iraq. Emboldened because it knows we have limited ability now to open up yet another war, even if it's right next door to Iraq, and our troops are stretched thin.
But also, frightened because the United States has shown itself willing to invade a country just on the hint, the suspicion that it might have nuclear weapons.
And Iran, which is an intensely nationalistic country, is frightened by that, and that directly flies in the face of their own nationalistic ambitions. And right now they're standing up to the United States and Europe and saying they're going to pursue their own affairs.
BROWNSTEIN: You know, the differences between, as -- I think Karen is exactly right, there's obvious difference in emphasis between the U.S. and Europe over how to handle this, the president today in his comments emphasizing the need for a verifiable agreement, underscore that.
But I do think it is -- it seems as though there is a reluctance on both sides, both the American side and the European side, to have another open breach so quickly after Iraq with those wounds still out there.
You get the sense that both sides, even though they are leery of the way the other one has approached the problem, are conscious of trying to avoid a direct -- a sort of direct conflict, which was so scarring over Iraq.
PILGRIM: Interesting point. We have to hold it there. Thank you very much. Ron Brownstein, Karen Tumulty and Roger Simon, thanks a lot.
Still ahead, the results of tonight's poll and a preview of what's ahead next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PILGRIM: Now, the results of tonight's poll. Seventy-eight percent of you say you will make an extra effort to buy American-made goods this holiday season. Twenty-two percent will not.
Well, thanks for being with us tonight. Please join us Monday. We begin a new series of special reports we're calling "Overmedicated Nation." It's on the explosion of mass-marketed drugs and skyrocketing prescription costs in this country.
Also next week, a powerful organization backed by corporate America is fighting for the rights of illegal aliens in this country. We'll have a special report.
For all of us here, have a wonderful weekend. Good night from New York. "ANDERSON COOPER 360" is next.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired November 26, 2004 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KITTY PILGRIM, HOST (voice-over): Tonight, a new challenge to American policy in Iraq. Fifteen Iraqi political parties call for a delay in Iraq's elections in January.
In Ukraine, a dramatic meeting about the disputed presidential election. Tens of thousands of people continue their pro-democracy protests.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The international community is watching very carefully.
PILGRIM: Tonight, foreign policy expert Ian Bremmer will join us to talk about Ukraine, Iraq and other challenges facing President Bush.
Shopping madness sweeps the nation. Tens of millions of people jam stores, looking for bargains that, in many cases, already have disappeared.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You've got to be a dedicated shopper. You've got to know what you want. You've got to grab it and you've got to move.
PILGRIM: And middle-class squeeze: Congress may slash federal grants for a million college students, even though tuition rates are soaring.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT for Friday, November 26. Here now for an hour of news, debate and opinion, sitting in for Lou Dobbs, who is on vacation, Kitty Pilgrim.
PILGRIM: Good evening. Tonight, more than a dozen Iraqi political parties are demanding a delay in the Iraqi general election. That election is only two months away. Those parties say the Iraqi government cannot guarantee security at polling places.
Two U.S. Marines were killed in Falluja as they searched buildings for insurgents. And in Baghdad, four employees of a British security firm were killed when insurgents attacked the Green Zone.
Karl Penhaul reports. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KARL PENHAUL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Fifteen of Iraq's new political parties held a meeting this afternoon in Baghdad. They came out of that meeting and have issued a call for a delay in nationwide elections.
As you know, the date for those elections had been set as January the 30th. But the parties in their meeting today decided that the timetable was too short, that the two-month timetable between now and then wasn't enough time to prepare for the elections, to campaign for the elections and also to create a secure security environment so that all Iraqis could enjoy their freedom to vote.
Amongst the political figures there at the meeting was Adnan Pachachi. He is a former president of the Iraqi Governing Council and well liked by the previous coalition authorities here.
ADNAN PACHACHI, FORMER PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: At this moment, it would be in the interests of all concerned to give a chance for those who have not yet started to participate to properly review their position, and also to give a chance to the government to make some substantial improvements in the security situation.
PENHAUL: Now, in the last few days, we have heard of Sunni Muslim political parties calling either for boycott or postponement of elections. The difference today, in addition to the Sunni Muslim parties, some secular parties and also the two main Kurdish parties joining the call for an election postponement.
Karl Penhaul, CNN, Baghdad.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: More gruesome discoveries in the northern Iraqi city of Mosul. The military says another six bodies have been found in that city. That brings the total to 46 bodies in the last eight days.
Insurgents launched a series of attacks in Mosul in a failed attempt to stop the U.S. offensive in Falluja. U.S. troops hunting the insurgents believe terrorists murdered Iraqi national guardsmen, police, and civilians working with American soldiers.
Five thousand U.S. Marines, Iraqi commandos and British troops are raiding dozens of insurgent hideouts south of Baghdad. The operation is led by the 24th Marine Expeditionary Unit. Members of the British Black Watch regiment are also taking part.
ITN's Harry Smith reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
HARRY SMITH, ITV REPORTER (voice-over): They've been told to go in hard, and they didn't hold back. Instead of winning hearts and minds, they slung sledgehammers and stun grenades.
They rounded up all the males above the age of 14, an experienced one youngster obviously found terrifying.
Their targets were the homes of former Saddam loyalists across the Euphrates River from Camp Dogwood, dangerous territory, which until now had been considered a no-go area.
But by first light, the Black Watch was in complete control.
(on camera) For most of these soldiers, this is their first chance to go on the offensive. For the past three weeks, they've suffered almost daily rocket attacks into Dogwood Camp. Most of these attacks came from here. This now is their chance to hit back.
(voice-over) It was one of the largest attacks by British troops since the war here officially ended: 700 soldiers, 116 vehicles. I was one of a small group of journalists who had seen it through the planning stage and the careful rehearsals.
But at the end of the day, only a tiny quantity of hidden arms and ammunition was seized. The army won't say if any of those detained are on its list of high-value targets.
Harry Smith, ITV News, central Iraq.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: Turning to the elections standoff in Ukraine, the opposition leader tonight is demanding a rerun of the disputed presidential election. He made the demand after meeting with the outgoing president and his opponent, who was declared the winner.
Tens of thousands of opposition supporters have continued their protests in Kiev for the fifth straight day. Ukraine lies in a strategic position between Russia and NATO countries such as Poland.
Jill Dougherty reports from the Ukrainian capital of Kiev -- Jill.
JILL DOUGHERTY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Kitty, today just this evening, in fact, we had the most important, really, moment here in the last few days.
And that is the two candidates, the two men who each claimed to be legitimately the president, should be the president of the Ukraine. And that is Viktor Yushchenko, the opposition candidate, and Viktor Yanukovych, who is the government-backed candidate. For the first time, they sat down, face to face, five days into this very tense standoff.
They -- they spoke for three hours, and the man who brokered that meeting, Javier Solana from the E.U., said that the atmosphere between both of those men, as you might expect, was cold.
Now, what did they come up with? Well, they said that, No. 1, those demonstrations that we've been reporting on now for days, those can continue. People have the right to do that, but they will not be able to block government buildings anymore. Another important thing they agreed, no violence, no force to be used against the demonstrators. And then the last thing is they have agreed to put together working teams that will be negotiating and trying to work out the next step.
That's where the question marks come in. Solana says there is a possibility they might even move toward new elections. He was more diplomatic.
But then later, Viktor Yushchenko, the opposition candidate, went down to the square, talked to his supporters, and said they actually had agreed that they are going to hold new elections. And that they'd also a new Central Election Commission that would have equal representation from both sides.
Don't forget that the big allegations here were of vote fraud, massive vote fraud. And -- and Yushchenko is saying they're going to try to eliminate that and in this, what would be the third round.
So Kitty, tonight, some progress, no guarantee of anything, but at least we know the demonstrations will continue. They hopefully will continue to be peaceful, and they're moving toward some type of an agreement on this.
PILGRIM: All right, thanks very much, Jill Dougherty reporting from Kiev. Thanks, Jill.
The election crisis in Ukraine is just the latest of several major foreign policy challenges facing the new Bush administration. And today President Bush spoke to reporters in Crawford, Texas.
White House correspondent Suzanne Malveaux reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): President Bush dropped by Crawford's Coffee Station for a burger and a couple of questions. Most notably on Mr. Bush's plate: the future of Iraq.
More than a dozen Iraqi political parties are calling for a six- month delay of Iraq's presidential elections. Any possible postponement is seen by the Bush administration as a misstep for the region and a win for the Iraqi insurgents.
BUSH: The Iraqi election commission has scheduled elections in January, and I would hope they'd go forward in January.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Democracy for Ukraine! Democracy for Ukraine!
BUSH: A handful of pro-democracy demonstrators gathered outside the Coffee Station to support Mr. Bush's position on the Ukrainian elections. The White House considers the recent presidential elections there a fraud and a blow to democracy in that region.
Mr. Bush and other world leaders are urging the Ukrainian authorities to come clean.
BUSH: The election's in doubt. The international community is watching very carefully.
MALVEAUX: The president also issued a warning to Iran. Through talks with the European Union, Tehran has pledged to freeze its nuclear program. But the White House is skeptical.
BUSH: The only good deal is one that's verifiable.
MALVEAUX: Mr. Bush is even using some of his political capital to help his closest ally, British Prime Minister Tony Blair, bring peace to Northern Ireland. The president said he called the province's Protestant leader to urge him to share power with his longtime Catholic enemies.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MALVEAUX: And President Bush will continue his diplomatic efforts this week when he takes a quick trip to Canada and then holds meetings in Washington with the leaders of Nigeria and Bahrain -- Kitty.
PILGRIM: All right. Thanks very much, Suzanne Malveaux.
Now later in the show, I will talk about the foreign policy challenges facing President Bush with the president of Eurasia Group, Ian Bremmer.
But first, for more on the war in Iraq, I'm joined by General David Grange. Always good to see you, General Grange.
BRIG. GEN. DAVID GRANGE (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Good evening.
PILGRIM: Let's go through a couple of developments we have today on Iraq, and one is a group of 15 Iraqi political parties calling for a delay. How do you assess that, and is it really because of the insurgents' strength?
GRANGE: Well, it's a couple things involved here. It's a lot of the insurgent activity. Even though the activity has spread out of, let's say, places like Fallujah and a couple other hot spots extensively throughout Iraq, the coalition fights against the insurgents has increased. So it's not just an insurgent issue. It's just a lot going on in that country.
And, again, the goal is to enable three of the 18 provinces that have some problems on security to be secure before the elections take place. The other issue -- you have posturing by the different factions. The Shiites, of course, want the elections right away, the Sunnis don't, and now the Kurds are throwing in their piece of it a little bit. So it's influenced by that as well.
PILGRIM: And some have pointed out to me that 15 political parties indicates that you haven't got a strong consensus anywhere. Fifteen, in itself, speaks for itself.
GRANGE: Well, sure. And the goal, I think, is still that they have elections near the end of January. A lot of people are wringing their hands. And if security is in place to have elections, they will. If it's not, then they'll be postponed. But I think the goal is still to have them in January.
PILGRIM: Is it analogous to a balloon where you squeeze it in one place and it comes out in the other? We did have operations in Fallujah conclude fairly successfully. Now we have Mosul on our plate. How is that going, General?
GRANGE: Well -- and Fallujah is still ongoing, still a very dangerous place, people still dying, getting hurt and a lot going on there. The thousands of buildings to be searched. You know, when they capture over 200 weapons storage sites, discover 11 improvised explosive device factories, it's a lot in Fallujah that has to be controlled for quite some time, which sucks up a lot of troops.
Then again, you have Mosul getting hotter than it was. You have activity south of Baghdad, other places throughout Iraq, which is requiring a lot of coalition forces to go on the offensive. When you have in Mosul 3,000 or 4,000 police leave their posts, someone has to fill that void, and that void is filled by Iraqi military or U.S. military soldiers.
PILGRIM: How would you assess the formation of Iraqi forces at this point? They were very optimistic about it, and yet you have reports of police basically abandoning their posts in Mosul.
GRANGE: Police.
PILGRIM: Right.
GRANGE: Military doing quite well. For instance, the 1st Infantry Division, the Big Red One, the units that they have trained have done exceptionally well. It's -- the key is picking the right leaders that are vetted, that truly are leaders to their men, going through some standards of training that is better than they have received before and equipping them properly, and that's on the upswing, and that's doing very well.
The difficulty is to police. But then again, if you're in a place like Mosul and you're an Iraqi policeman and you know you're the target of the insurgents because they cannot take on the U.S., so now they take on their own more extensively than they have in the past, or just civilians, then you're fearing for your life. It is a dangerous place to work as a policeman.
PILGRIM: You always help us sort it out so well.
General David Grange.
Thank you very much.
GRANGE: My pleasure. PILGRIM: Now we've reported extensively here about France and other European countries that have refused to help the United States in Iraq, but several European nations have sent troops, and they are proving to be loyal allies of this countries.
And one of those is Denmark. The Danish parliament has voted to extend the deployment of 500 Danish troops to Iraq by another six months. Danish lawmakers also voted to increase the number of Danish troops in Afghanistan.
Still ahead tonight, shoppers gone mad. Millions of people line up in the dark for holiday bargains. An annual tradition goes to the extreme. We'll have that story.
And the middle-class squeeze. Why hundreds of thousands of college students could lose federal grant money.
That report and much more all ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PILGRIM: It's black Friday, and that's one of the biggest shopping days of the year where stores have a chance to end the year in the black. More than 130 million people will flood stores all across the country this weekend, and, with all that competition, many shoppers go to extremes to find a bargain.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Woo!
PILGRIM (voice-over): It was a coast-to-coast flurry. A drop in temperatures in the Northeast didn't keep shoppers from lining up in the dark at this Connecticut Best Buy.
In Georgia, the world's largest retailer attracted an early crowd as well.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We got up around 3:30, we made it here around 4:30, and I'm glad we did, you know, seeing how long this line is.
PILGRIM: They rushed the stores in Florida, 60 and 70 percent off signs luring American shoppers looking for the best bargains possible.
West Coast shoppers stampeded.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's 5:00 in the morning. We ran all the way across the mall from J.C. Penney's all the way to Sears.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We ran.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And we're not tired. It's exciting, though. It's like adrenaline. You're like shopping!
PILGRIM: It was the same scene in California. In Illinois, shoppers at this Chicago Kaybee Toy Store were well equipped with bags to stuff their bargains in.
And New York City was unusually crowded with shoppers, even for this time of year. The lines started at 4:00 a.m. in Times Square. Nearly 3,000 people jammed Toys 'R' Us looking for the bargains.
No bargains to be found at the reopening of famed high-end toy store FAO Schwarz, but the crowds were there.
And while we'll have to wait until the new year to tally the total, the chairman of Federated Department Stores, which owns Macy's and Bloomingdale's is counting on strong consumer confidence this holiday season.
TERRY LUNDGREN, CHAIRMAN & CEO, FEDERATED DEPARTMENT STORES: Something's a little different this year, and that is business has been a lot better, as you know, this year for us and for others, and so there's much more of a supply and demand in balance this year than there has been in the past.
While there will be sales and there will be discounts, I think it will be a little bit harder to find all of your things, if you just keep on waiting for it to go deeper and deeper on sale.
PILGRIM: Or maybe that's a nudge to get you in the door and start your shopping early.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: Shopping sales for this holiday season are expected to grow 4-1/2 percent this year to $220 billion, and that would be a little softer than last year.
Now one group is urging Americans to buy American-made products this holiday season. The nation's largest labor union is working to remind shoppers that buying products made in the USA is one way to keep jobs here at home.
Bill Tucker reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BILL TUCKER, CNN FINANCIAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): In this gift-giving season, the AFL-CIO has launched a campaign urging Americans to give the gift of a job. It's their simple reminder that when you buy American-made goods, your money goes to support American workers.
MATT BATES, AFL-CIO: There's going to be somewhere in the order of $800 million to $1 trillion spent on the holiday season this year, and we want to make sure as many of those dollars as possible go to support good-paying U.S. jobs.
TUCKER: It's the second-annual effort at reminding shoppers to look at what they buy. Last year's effort was last minute. They're a little more organized this year and have posted a Web site, shopunionmade.org, to help shoppers. The idea is not lost on consumers.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's supporting your fellow citizens, quite frankly. That's what you're doing.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You like to think that what you're contributing to is keeping somebody employed and not...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In this country.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... in this country.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And with the -- with the jobs going overseas, per se, you know, you'd like to keep it in -- U.S. made, if possible.
TUCKER: There are other Web sites beside the one the union has posted. There's buyAmerican.com or buydirectusa.com among others which promote products made here, and marketers say sticker shock need not be a problem.
SUSAN CATRAL, WE EMPLOY AMERICA: I think the fallacy is that, well, low-cost goods are good for the economy because then consumers are an opportunity to buy many, many goods at a lower cost.
But the fact is that, you know, very often, if you go and shop and you're looking at a product that's made here in the U.S. and you're comparing it to a product that's imported, there isn't a vast price gap in those two products.
TUCKER (on camera): This past September, the City of Clarksville, Tennessee, sponsored its own Buy America Campaign. The organizers there prompted to action after several industries left town for overseas shores.
Bill Tucker, CNN, New York.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: And that brings us to the subject of tonight's poll. Will you make an extra effort to buy American-made goods this holiday season? Yes or no? Cast your vote at cnn.com/lou, and we will bring you the results later in the show.
While some shoppers are doing their part to buy American, others are taking a stand on a different kind. They are not buying at all. Now an unusual group has launched a campaign to protest overconsumption in this country. It has declared today International Buy Nothing Day. Some protesters set up credit card-cutting stations outside stores, and others actually pushed empty shopping carts through Wal-Mart.
Coming up, putting the squeeze on the middle class. A million college students could have less money to pay for college if some members of Congress have their way. And a fight for control of the skies. Tonight, another American company struggling to compete against government-funded foreign competition.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PILGRIM: One proposal in the massive spending bill awaiting the president's signature could slash federal grants for one million college students. Now the measure would cut Pell grant awards at the same time that tuition continues to soar.
Lisa Sylvester has our report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LISA SYLVESTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): About five million students receive Pell grants from the federal government to help pay for their college tuition. The grants, up to $4,050, go to the students who can least afford to pay for their education.
But a proposal in the omnibus spending bill would change the eligibility formula, reducing the number of students who would qualify.
SEN. JON CORZINE (D), NEW JERSEY: It is an incredible crush against middle-class America, which is trying to make sure that their kids have that opportunity to have a better life.
SYLVESTER: Although Congress is appropriating slightly more money, so many more students are applying for Pell grants that the individual awards will be reduced.
The biggest impact will be felt by families making between $35,000 and $40,000. An estimated 90,000 students now receiving Pell grants would become ineligible. Another 1.2 million would see the rewards reduced.
And more students could see state and other grants cut because the same eligibility criteria is widely used by nonfederal programs.
MELANIE CORRIGAN, AMERICAN COUNCIL ON EDUCATION: What we see students doing, time and again, is working more or taking fewer classes, which is putting a lot more burden on their time and their attention to classes and, so unfortunately, will ask more of them and their families.
SYLVESTER: But Republicans who voted to change the rules argue that they are simply protecting the neediest students. House Education Chairman John Bainer in a statement said, "The bill also preserves hope for a future increase in the maximum Pell grant award, the amount of aid given individually to the poorest students in the nation, the students facing the hardest fight of all against soaring college tuition rates."
In a year when budget deficits pressed Congress to hold the line on discretionary spending, aid to education has become an important political point of contention.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SYLVESTER: Senator Jon Corzine led a fight in Congress to block Department of Education plans to change the tax tables used to determine eligibility, but inserting the change in the omnibus spending bill makes it nearly impossible to defeat -- Kitty.
PILGRIM: All right. Thanks very much.
Lisa Sylvester.
Coming up, we'll have the latest on the oil-for-food scandal.
Also, on the brink of Civil War? An election crisis in the Ukraine leaves the country bitterly divided. I'll be joined by International Political Expert Ian Bremmer.
And turning yesterday's science fiction into tomorrow's reality. You simply won't believe one project the Pentagon and your tax dollars are funding.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ANNOUNCER: LOU DOBBS TONIGHT continues. Sitting in for Lou Dobbs, Kitty Pilgrim.
PILGRIM: In a moment, Ian Bremmer of Eurasia Group will join us to talk about the election crisis in Ukraine and also foreign policy concerns for the Bush administration in Iran and Iraq.
But, first, a look at some of the top stories.
A major development tonight in the United Nations oil-for-food program scandal. The U.N. now says the son of Secretary General Kofi Annan was on the payroll of major contractor in the program until earlier this year.
Kojo Annan was on that payroll, despite the fact he stopped working as a consultant to Cotecna six years ago.
Highway crews in Colorado have reopened one eastbound and one westbound lane of Interstate 70 after a dangerous rock slide. Dozens of boulders, some as big as cars, crashed down on the road through Glenwood Canyon. Now, officials closed a 24-mile stretch of I-70, and luckily, no one was injured.
A U.S. Army deserter, Charles Jenkins, has been released from a military prison in Japan. Jenkins was sentenced to a month in jail for leaving his unit in 1965 and defecting to North Korea.
President Bush today talked with journalists about three major foreign policy challenges facing his administration. Iraq is scheduled to hold elections in January. But leading Iraqi politicians have called for a delay.
Iran has agreed to suspend uranium enrichment, but the White House believes Iran is determined to produce nuclear weapons.
And Ukraine could be on the brink of civil war after a disputed presidential election.
Joining me now is Ian Bremmer, president of the Eurasia Group, a political risk consulting firm.
And thanks very much for joining us tonight, Dr. Bremmer.
IAN BREMMER, PRESIDENT, EURASIA GROUP: Thank you.
PILGRIM: Let's start with Ukraine. Now, many people have rallied to the cause. We had Lech Walesa. We had Colin Powell. We had President Bush. We had Senator Lugar.
A lot of people piling on here and inserting themselves into a national election in the Ukraine. How do you assess that?
BREMMER: We do not have Russian President Vladimir Putin, of course, who quickly congratulated the prime minister, Yanukovych, for winning the election and had to back off a little bit.
One of the interesting points here is that the U.S.-Russia relationship, which was looking so strong as a strategic partnership over the last couple years after September 11 now looks like it might be at a turning point.
Just at the APEC summit we had in Chile, President Bush and National Security Adviser Rice had some difficult words for President Putin. He responded positively on the notion of moving toward consolidated authoritarianism in Russia.
Now they're on the opposite side in moving Ukraine towards Europe or keeping it in the old former Soviet bloc effectively. That's the trouble.
PILGRIM: And Putin's fingerprints are all over this election. He actually campaigned for one of the candidates, did he not?
BREMMER: He did. And, you know, Russian media is very important in Ukraine. Also, there a lot of Russians in Ukraine.
Ukraine is a split country. This isn't like a lot of the other countries in that part of the world. You have strong Catholic, Ukrainian speakers in the west of the country. You have Russian speakers, and many Russians, including a majority Russian population, Crimea and through the industrial southeast of the country.
No matter who wins this election and whether or not they have to end up -- they decide to end up holding the election again, a large number of people in Ukraine are not going to be happy.
That makes -- that makes violence more likely. And it also means that the tension for eventually governance in Ukraine is going to be very high. And that's one of the reasons why U.S.-Russia relations over this issue are going to be tense for some time. PILGRIM: So you're saying even if they resolve it, it still could be a mess?
BREMMER: Well, it's hard to resolve. I mean, you look back at U.S. elections in 2000, and I mean, clearly there were lots of irregularities, but once it was resolved, lots of people are going to be unhappy.
It's clear -- Dick Lugar said this; Colin Powell said this -- these elections were stolen. But at the same time, there were lots of and lots of Ukrainians and Russians in Donetsk and Dnepropetrovsk and Krivoy (ph) and all these other places you've never heard of that actually voted in favor of the bad guy. And that's a problem.
So someone's going to be upset. Just a couple hours ago, the mayor of Donetsk said that if the opposition ended up winning, that they would have a referendum on succeeding from Ukraine. Tensions are pretty high.
PILGRIM: Let's talk about Iran. I hate to switch countries on you so rapidly, but I know you're quite used to it. It does appear that Iran is reneging on a deal that they made with the Europeans.
The Iranian crisis, do you see it going worse more than better?
BREMMER: Well, they're now coming back today and saying, well, maybe they'll accept the deal that they just reneged on that they had agreed to. It's confusing.
PILGRIM: Where do we stand?
BREMMER: Well, first of all, Iran's not Libya. So in other words, you don't have one leader who's in charge that says, "You know what, guys? This is the way it's going to be." There's a lot of fragmentation even among the conservative people that mullahs that ostensibly run the country.
So first, let's recognize they don't have their house in order. So if we're inclined not to trust them, they'll give us lots of reasons.
PILGRIM: But President Bush today said no deal is good unless it's verifiable. Is it even possible to verify it with this kind of flip-flopping going on? We -- we want the centrifuges; we don't want the centrifuges in the deal, out of the deal. It's just been a lot of flip-flopping.
BREMMER: When I speak to senior European policymakers, they'll be the first to say they believe that the Iranians really want to have a nuclear weapons program, and what they're trying to do is slow them down.
That's because they believe that having even a limited inspections program in, even half a loaf, is better than attacking, is better than, say, surgical strikes against the nuclear program, much of which is in highly densely populated population centers. That's unacceptable for the Bush administration. And frankly, that status quo is unacceptable for the Israelis.
PILGRIM: They may haul it to the Security Council. Do you think that that is a possibility?
BREMMER: The Chinese, who've just done a memorandum of understanding with the Iranians, for the largest ever energy deal in Iran, have said they will not support comprehensive sanctions at the United Nations if it goes through the Security Council.
So you know, at this point, the Europeans don't have the kind of leverage. And the Iranians know that, which is one of the reasons they're causing the trouble there.
PILGRIM: Quickly, on Iraq, because we're almost out of time. Fifteen parties today called for a delay. How do you assess that?
BREMMER: Well, it's a lot of parties. But there are a lot of parties in Iraq, of course.
This is a problem for President Bush. On the one hand, you've got Ayatollah Sistani, the most important ayatollah in all the Muslim world, saying, "We want elections January 30." Bush saying the same thing, Prime Minister Allawi in Iraq saying the same thing.
Now you have 15 parties, including the Kurds, saying no. Well, you know what? Iraq's a fragmented country. You've got the Shia, the majority population on one side, everyone else on the other. Is that a surprise going into the elections? Absolutely not.
It's doing to be really problematic. One way or the other, lots of people are going to be upset with the eventual outcomes. At this point it now looks like it's going to be a challenge to get it done by January 30. That's really going to hurt President Bush if it happens.
PILGRIM: All right. Thank you very much, Ian Bremmer.
BREMMER: Right.
PILGRIM: In "Heroes" tonight, Army Sergeant Barrye Saylor has served in the military since he graduated from high school. He earned a Soldier's Medal for Bravery in Iraq, and he returned home to plan for a new career, building on what he learned in combat.
Casey Wian has our report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BARRYE SAYLOR, FORMER ARMY SERGEANT: There's a 90 percent chance you're going to go in a house and it's just going to be a family and you know they're talking about. But there's also that 10 percent chance that you know, you're going to walk in there, and there he is.
CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It's not Iraq. It's Fort Hood, Texas. Sergeant Barrye Saylor and his squad were among the first troops in when the war broke out. Now they train for the next mission.
SAYLOR: At this point all we focus on is Iraq. Also right now, we're on homeland security detail, which means in the same respect, we're going to be dealing with the same type of terrorists we dealt with in Iraq, but on our own soil.
WIAN: Saylor's a gunner, a team leader, and an interpreter, learning to speak Arabic training Iraqi security forces. He's also a hero, earning a Soldier's Medal for his part in saving an Iraqi civilian pinned under a car and a telephone pole.
SAYLOR: I pulled a telephone pole off, used it as a lever to pry the car up. One guy grabbed the guy under the car, pulled him out. During this, I mean, the flames crept up into the canon (ph). As soon as we got the guy out, starting burning the gas tank, I guess. One of the fuel lines went up, and the car, the whole car went up in flames.
WIAN: Saylor's training hard. But unlike the other soldiers, he likely won't go back to Iraq. Though he loves the military, in January, he plans to leave and go back to school.
SAYLOR: I'd like to get into some kind of systems or weapons development for the military. Because from being on the ground you really get an idea of what we need and what would help us best. So I really think that I could be helpful doing that.
WIAN: Saylor, his wife, Jacqueline, and son, Hayden, plan to return home to Baltimore, where he'll finish his bachelor's degree in math and physics.
Casey Wian, CNN, reporting.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: Still ahead tonight, three of the country's best political journalists join us.
Also, an escalating battle between a U.S. aerospace company and its leading competitor. Why American officials are crying foul.
And then, the Pentagon looks to develop new technology based on a science fiction classic. And we'll tell you how much money the Pentagon is investing in teleportation, next. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PILGRIM: The World Trade Organization has given final approval for the European Union, Japan and other countries to impose multimillion-dollar sanctions against the United States. The sanctions are in response to a U.S. law that fines foreign companies judged to be selling products below fair market value.
The World Trade Organization has ruled that law illegal, and the White House is working to repeal it. But until then, President Bush says the United States will comply with the WTO.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BUSH: We've worked hard to comply with the WTO. I think it's important that all nations comply with WTO rulings. I work with Congress to get it in compliance. As you might remember, we worked on the FISC/ETI bill because of the WTO ruling.
We expect the WTO, as well, to treat our trading partners as they treat us. And that's why, for example, I filed complaint on the Airbus situation. We believe that the subsidies for Airbus are unfair for U.S. companies such as Boeing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PILGRIM: The battle between Boeing and Airbus is about to enter a new and politically decisive phase. Airbus wants to produce a new airliner to compete against Boeing's Dreamliner passenger jet.
And Christine Romans reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Boeing's new Dreamliner is its best chance to retake a lost lead in global aviation.
But European rival Airbus is doing all it can to prevent that. It's seeking European government aid for a new plane designed to kill the Dreamliner. And what has Boeing and the U.S. crying foul.
REP. JAY INSLEE (D), WASHINGTON: What we're talking about is an economic poison. And that poison is a direct launch aid subsidy essentially cash, a risk-free, no-interest loan paid before the first bolt is tightened on these airplanes that would never have to be repaid if the plane does not become commercially successful.
That is a type of assistance that is clearly illegal under WTO.
ROMANS: The view from Europe? So long as Boeing gets state and federal tax breaks and government contracts, it's going to seek risk- free European government handouts as long as it can.
RICHARD ANDULARA, AEROSPACE ANALYST, TEAL GROUP: From Airbus's standpoint, basically, it's making hay while the sun shines. I think they're aware that government aid for new industrial products is basically kind of an anachronism in this day and age, but may as well take advantage while you can and continue to erode Boeing's market share.
ROMANS: In fact, Airbus has delivered 261 planes this year, overtaking Boeing's 238 deliveries.
Making matters worse for Boeing, the French government is reportedly pushing for a merger between Airbus parent company EADS and French company Thales to create a global aerospace giant.
(END VIDEOTAPE) ROMANS: Now, under WTO rules, the U.S. and the European Commission have one more week to resolve this subsidies issue before it goes to court. And many fear that step could result in a costly ruling against both manufacturers.
For now, some say the best hope for reaching a compromise out of court is the new European Commissioner trade commissioner, a Brit and a close political ally of Prime Minister Tony Blair -- Kitty.
PILGRIM: Thanks very much, Christine.
Well, the Pentagon has invested huge sums of money to ensure American troops can fly around to trouble spots around the world. And now scientists are looking into ways to transport troops even faster, using technology normally associated with science fiction.
Pentagon correspondent Barbara Starr has our report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BARBARA STARR, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): On the starship Enterprise, all Captain Kirk and his "Star Trek" crew just have to signal Scottie the engineer to beam them up with the pull of a lever.
LEONARD NIMOY, ACTOR: Energize.
STARR: Instantly, they are transported to distant planets. Could the rest of us ever do that? The U.S. military wants to know.
The Air Force, home of the most high-tech fighters and center of UFO speculation, is exploring strange new worlds and going where the Pentagon has not gone before.
The Air Force gave Warp Drive Metrics of Las Vegas, Nevada, 35 $25,000 to study the physics of teleportation. Yes, the transport of persons or inanimate objects across space.
But the Air Force isn't snickering, and even insists in a statement, "We don't do science fiction; we do science." Adding that many current weapons started as ideas perceived to be science fiction, such as airplanes, lasers and stealth technology.
And although the Air Force says it's not going to spend any more money on the project, some physicists are already rolling their eyes.
IVAN OELRICH, FEDERATION OF AMERICAN SCIENTISTS: There are some things that really are silly ideas. And just because one idea that everybody thought was silly turns out to be right, that doesn't mean all the other silly ideas might be right.
STARR: Light beams do exist in our lives already: the laser scanner at the grocery checkout, at voting machines, at customs checkpoints. There is even promising research to see if airborne lasers could shoot down incoming enemy ballistic missiles.
But this government-funded study looks at very advanced ideas: disembodied transport, psychic transport through mental power, and movement by altering time and space dimensions.
The Warp Drive Metrics report looks impressive: lots of calculations, discussions of black holes, worm holes, and quantum physics. It even questions whether your soul can be transported across the galaxies with your body.
(on camera) Intergalactic transport would be very handy stuff for future space explorers and soldiers trying to get from one place to another in a big hurry. But for now, most of us will be staying in this galaxy.
Barbara Starr, CNN, firmly on planet Earth.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: And still ahead, we'll beam up three of the country's very best political journalists with their take on calls for delay in the Iraqi election and the political crisis in Ukraine. And how the United States should respond. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PILGRIM: Joining me now from Washington are three of the country's leading political journalists. Ron Brownstein is national political correspondent for the "Los Angeles Times." Karen Tumulty is national political correspondent for "TIME" magazine. And Roger Simon is political editor for "U.S. News & World Report."
And thank you all for being here.
ROGER SIMON, POLITICAL EDITOR, "U.S. NEWS & WORLD REPORT": Thanks, Kitty.
KAREN TUMULTY, NATIONAL POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT, "TIME": Hi, Kitty.
PILGRIM: We'll start, you know, we'll start with foreign policy because it seems to be dominating the news today. In fact, the three topics that President Bush spoke about, when he emerged from his post- holiday break, was to talk about foreign policy.
So let's start with the Ukraine. And let's talk about where we stand here. We've seen an enormous amount of the United States weighing in on this election. We had Powell; we had Senator Lugar. We've had a lot of comment. President Bush commenting about this election.
It's fairly unusual for U.S. officials to be commenting on a national election in another part of the world. And yet here we have it. Where do we stand? Let's start with you, Karen.
TUMULTY: Well, at the same time, they are -- are saying that they think that this election was handled fraudulently, not to put too fine of a point on it.
It's more interesting, in some ways, to watch what's going on behind the scenes here, because U.S. officials are very anxious to portray this as a question of democracy functioning.
But, in fact, the dynamic now between Vladimir Putin and this administration is also quite interesting to watch. Because not only has he -- now he, of course, has staked his claim on the other side of this dispute. But he is not only -- is somebody who has built a strong personal relationship with President Bush, but somebody who we very badly need in the war on terror.
So there -- this is really being played out on sort of two levels. One, a question of democracy in the Ukraine, but also another in terms of sort of the east-west tensions, the sort of tensions that we really haven't seen since the end of the cold war.
RON BROWNSTEIN, NATIONAL POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT, "L.A. TIMES": And Kitty, if I could jump in there. What's interesting about that is, as we saw in the presidential campaign this fall and certainly in the acceptance speech in New York City, President Bush has argued that promoting democracy should be the cornerstone of American foreign policy into the new century.
And Russia stands as sort of the -- as one of the big exceptions in that, in that we have seen, over the last few years, Putin move to centralize control, taken a lot of steps that have alarmed reformers both at home and around the world.
And you wonder to what extent this confrontation in the Ukraine will crystallize our own -- our own doubts about the direction he's pursuing at home and the way it fits in to what President Bush has argued is his sort of ultimate foreign policy priority.
SIMON: All right. I think Ron makes a good point. We now see ourselves as protectors of democracies everywhere, which is why Senator Lugar and Secretary Powell speak so freely about a democratic election, or the lack of a democratic election in a foreign country.
And this is directly opposed to the way that Putin sees the institutions of democracy. He's become more authoritarian as the years have gone by. The press has become less free in Russia as the years have gone by.
And the United States, frankly, feels that it's now time to stand up to Putin before he does, basically, a power grab in a neighboring country.
It's no secret that Putin came to Ukraine and campaigned for Yanukovych, that Russian TV, which beams into Ukraine, was heavily for Yanukovych. And that basically, Russia interfered with another country's elections and we're not going to stand for it.
PILGRIM: Well, the fact that we've drawn a line in the sand, basically, over the Ukraine, perhaps a little surprising. This tug of war between two superpowers over this election really wasn't something anyone could foresee. It's a surprise.
BROWNSTEIN: And it's not just us. I mean, what's interesting is this is a case where, after all the tensions of the first term, the president is very much on the same page with the major European powers who have raised similar concerns.
Obviously, there are limits to how much any outside power at this point can influence the decision, but I think there's no question, as you look at the decision by the court, by the supreme court there and the maneuvering that's going on, that all of this outside pressure does have some influence, and that probably does encourage both President Bush and the Europeans to keep -- keep the heat on.
PILGRIM: And you're seeing great solidarity on that point, and yet in Iran, there is a split of opinion between Europeans and U.S. Policy. We've seen Iran flip-flop several times on deals with the Europeans. I guess now the latest is that they have said OK and acquiesced on the issue of centrifuges.
But will we eventually come to the same conclusion as the Europeans on Iran? What's your assessment on that?
TUMULTY: Well, I actually don't think that that is likely, because this administration has made it very clear from the beginning that they just do not trust any deal that the Iranians are -- are claiming to be making right now.
And certainly, we saw last week that it was like a day after the announcement of the deal, that Secretary Powell was coming forward with -- with new intelligence regarding other steps the Iranians had taken, trying to -- trying to miniaturize nuclear warheads so that they could fit on the tip of a missile.
It -- there's clearly a lot of mistrust on the part of this administration, on any deal that Iran is going to be a part of at this point.
SIMON: And Iran has become both frightened and emboldened by our invasion of Iraq. Emboldened because it knows we have limited ability now to open up yet another war, even if it's right next door to Iraq, and our troops are stretched thin.
But also, frightened because the United States has shown itself willing to invade a country just on the hint, the suspicion that it might have nuclear weapons.
And Iran, which is an intensely nationalistic country, is frightened by that, and that directly flies in the face of their own nationalistic ambitions. And right now they're standing up to the United States and Europe and saying they're going to pursue their own affairs.
BROWNSTEIN: You know, the differences between, as -- I think Karen is exactly right, there's obvious difference in emphasis between the U.S. and Europe over how to handle this, the president today in his comments emphasizing the need for a verifiable agreement, underscore that.
But I do think it is -- it seems as though there is a reluctance on both sides, both the American side and the European side, to have another open breach so quickly after Iraq with those wounds still out there.
You get the sense that both sides, even though they are leery of the way the other one has approached the problem, are conscious of trying to avoid a direct -- a sort of direct conflict, which was so scarring over Iraq.
PILGRIM: Interesting point. We have to hold it there. Thank you very much. Ron Brownstein, Karen Tumulty and Roger Simon, thanks a lot.
Still ahead, the results of tonight's poll and a preview of what's ahead next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PILGRIM: Now, the results of tonight's poll. Seventy-eight percent of you say you will make an extra effort to buy American-made goods this holiday season. Twenty-two percent will not.
Well, thanks for being with us tonight. Please join us Monday. We begin a new series of special reports we're calling "Overmedicated Nation." It's on the explosion of mass-marketed drugs and skyrocketing prescription costs in this country.
Also next week, a powerful organization backed by corporate America is fighting for the rights of illegal aliens in this country. We'll have a special report.
For all of us here, have a wonderful weekend. Good night from New York. "ANDERSON COOPER 360" is next.
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