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Lou Dobbs Tonight
Former 9/11 Commissioners Push for Intel Reform; Bush Meets with Canadian Prime Minister
Aired November 30, 2004 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LOU DOBBS, HOST (voice-over): Tonight, the 9/11 Commission demanding a vote on the deadlocked intelligence reform bill. Relatives of Americans killed on September 11 say this bill does nothing to stop terrorists from crossing our borders.
JOAN MOLINARO, MOTHER OF 9/11 VICTIM: No bill should pass the Senate, the House, anywhere, unless it contains immigration reform to secure our borders. You keep my girls alive.
DOBBS: We'll have a live report from Capitol Hill. I'll talk with Congressman Christopher Shays, who blames the White House for stalling the reform legislation.
President Bush visits Canada and finds our neighbors to the north not so friendly.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I want to thank the Canadian people who came out to wave, with all five fingers.
DOBBS: We'll have a live report and three of the country's top political journalists join me.
For the first time in more than 30 years, fewer foreign students are coming from this country to learn. Harvard Professor Joseph Nye says the trend could devastate the country's standing in the world. I'll ask him why he's so upset about this development.
And you can't watch television without seeing a drug company commercial.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: After a simple test, my doctor prescribed Androgen.
DOBBS: Why are the pharmaceutical companies spending more on advertising than on research? We'll have a special report tonight on our "Overmedicated Nation."
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT for Tuesday, November 30. Here now for an hour of news, debate and opinion, is Lou Dobbs.
DOBBS: Good evening. Tonight, the former leaders of the 9/11 Commission are demanding that the White House and Congress revive the now deadlocked intelligence reform legislation. That bill stalled in Congress after senators struck down measures that would have improved border security and prevented illegal aliens from obtaining driver's licenses.
Ed Henry reports from Capitol Hill.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ED HENRY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Tom Kean and Lee Hamilton huddled with Vice President Cheney in a last-ditch lobbying blitz for the stalled intelligence reform bill. The former 9/11 Commission co- chairs are also making their case to Congress, warning of dire consequences if the stalemate isn't broken.
TOM KEAN, FORMER CHAIR, 9/11 COMMISSION: Reform is an urgent matter, and reform simply must not wait until after the next attack.
HENRY: The White House says President Bush wants a deal, despite the objections of Republican committee chairmen James Sensenbrenner and Duncan Hunter.
But one Republican lawmaker suggested if House leaders do not bring the bill up for a vote next week, the president should get the blame.
REP. CHRISTOPHER SHAYS (R), CONNECTICUT: If we don't have a vote on September 11, it will be my feeling that the president didn't weigh in strong enough.
HENRY: Besides the divide between powerful Republicans, there's a split among 9/11 families. Some say this bill isn't strong enough.
DEBRA BURLINGAME, 9/11 FAMILIES FOR SECURE AMERICA: Why we need to have this pass now? I'd rather see it fail than it would be without these revisions.
HENRY: Others say reform can't wait.
BEVERLY ECKERT, 9/11 FAMILY STEERING COMMITTEE: America will be watching what Congress does next week to see who is really running this country. Is it Congressmen Hunter and Sensenbrenner? Is it the Pentagon? Or is it the president?
HENRY: One woman who lost her son on 9/11, argued passionately that Sensenbrenner's immigration provisions be included.
JOAN MOLINARO, 9/11 FAMILIES FOR SECURE AMERICA: No bill should pass the Senate, the House, anywhere, unless it contains immigration reform. You secure our borders. You keep my girls alive. You allowed the murder of my son. I will not allow you to kill my daughters.
HENRY: Former 9/11 commissioners, meanwhile, disputed Hunter's contention that a new director of national intelligence will hinder key information from reaching military troops in the field.
LEE HAMILTON, VICE CHAIR, 9/11 COMMISSION: It is wartime. We would not support a bill that undercuts support to our troops. The commander in chief supports this bill.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HENRY: Republican Congressman Chris Shays today challenged President Bush to come up to Capitol Hill next week and make the case for this legislation behind closed doors. Shays is convinced that a direct appeal from the president will sway a majority of Republicans and finally get this bill done -- Lou.
DOBBS: Ed, is the Senate -- the senators in the conference committee that threw out the immigration reform, the improved border security, why is there no focus at all in all of this on the fact that the Senate is actually obstructing what was intended by the House in its full-measure vote?
HENRY: That's right. We made this point in a piece about a week or so ago.
Congressman Sensenbrenner has been pointing out that when he had a phone conversation with President Bush that was reported on a lot, they actually worked out a bit of a compromise on some of these immigration provisions.
They brought it back to the Senate conferees, and people like Senator Joe Lieberman, Senator Susan Collins pretty much laughed it off, according to people in the room, and said that they did not want these provisions.
But I can tell you that the Senate conferees insist that these immigration provisions went much further than what Sensenbrenner has already been talking about, that they went far beyond what has been discussed behind closed doors, and that it would have sunk the entire bill.
And they're trying to at least get something done this year, and they say they will come back and look at the immigration reform next year, Lou.
DOBBS: Is there any reason at all for the Republicans in the House, who have supported Congressman Hunter and congressman Sensenbrenner, to believe that a Senate that will not consider immigration reform or improve border security now with full political heat upon them would be in any better mood to consider both of those critical issues come January?
HENRY: Well, there's one big difference in January, Lou, and that's the fact that there will be four more Republican seats in the Senate. So presumably, there is the possibility that Republicans in the Senate could have a stronger hand to push some of this immigration reform.
Obviously, some people think they still will not do it in January, as you suggest. But there are some people on Capitol Hill who believe that if at least part of the job is done now, Republican leaders in the Senate will have a much stronger hand in January to try to push what Jim Sensenbrenner is trying to get.
But Sensenbrenner, as you know, has said he's not going to wait. He's not going to buy that. He doesn't believe that's going to happen. He wants it now, Lou.
DOBBS: Ed Henry reporting from Capitol Hill, thank you.
Well, as Ed just reported, Congressman Christopher Shays blames the White House for stalling intelligence reform, and Congressman Shays is my guest, still ahead here tonight.
President Bush today reiterated his calls for Congress to send him an intelligence reform bill. President Bush spoke at a joint news conference with Canadian Prime Minister Paul Martin in Ottawa.
The two leaders discussed a number of issues, including Canada's refusal to support the United States in Iraq. They also discussed the 5,000-mile-long border between our two countries, which is largely unprotected.
John King is in Ottawa and has the report -- John.
JOHN KING, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, this trip designed to put U.S./Canada relations on a better track after those bitter disputes over Iraq, nasty trade disputes between these two governments, as well. But as Ed Henry noted, this dispute back in the United States over intelligence reform following the president on this trip.
At the news conference after his discussions with Prime Minister Martin, Mr. Bush was asked about critics back home who say he's trying to have it both ways, that on the one hand, he says he is for this intelligence reform measure, but that he is not willing to put public and sustained pressure on the Republicans in his party who are blocking this bill from becoming a reality.
Mr. Bush saying he is prepared to put that pressure on them, saying he would meet with the congressional leadership when he gets back to Washington later in the week. The president said there should be no doubt that he wants this legislation to reach his desk and reach it soon.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BUSH: I believe the bill is necessary and important and hope we can get it done next week. And look forward to talking to Speaker Hastert and Leader Frist here before the week is out to express to them why I just told you in public I'm for the bill, again.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: On the streets here by the thousands, demonstrators voicing their opposition to President Bush and to the war in Iraq. Mostly "give peace a chance," you see there. The demonstrators saying they believe U.S. foreign policy and the U.S. president put war ahead of diplomacy, a reminder of the steep challenge the president faces as he tries heading into his second term to mend relationships that were bruised by the debate over Iraq.
Mr. Bush at his news conference on the one hand defiant. Asked about polls here showing Canadians oppose his foreign policy, the president said the American people just had a poll, and they voted for four more years of the Bush foreign policy.
But the president also trying to have a bit of a humorous approach, noting that he did see some supporters as he drove in from the airport.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BUSH: I frankly felt like the reception we received on the we in from the airport was very warm and hospitable, and I want to thank the Canadian people who came out to wave, with all five fingers, for -- for their hospitality.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: A bit of humor from the president there. The trade disputes not resolved, although Mr. Bush clearly, Lou, has a much better relationship with this Canadian prime minister, Mr. Martin, than his predecessor, Jean Chretien -- Lou.
DOBBS: John, thank you very much, our senior White House correspondent John King.
Before President Bush left for Canada today, he accepted the resignation of Homeland Security Secretary Tom Ridge. Ridge says he will stay in his position until February unless his replacement is confirmed before then. The White House has not said who President Bush will nominate to replace him.
In Iraq tonight, five American soldiers have been wounded after a car bombing west of Baghdad. Insurgents attacked a military convoy on the road to Baghdad's airport. Two separate attacks in the northern town of Baiji killed seven Iraqis. Twenty people were wounded in those attacks, including three American soldiers.
On Capitol Hill tonight, some lawmakers are calling for a cut in U.S. funding of the United Nations. At issue is the U.N.'s failure to release detailed information about the corrupt oil-for-food program in Iraq.
One lawmaker says a cut in funding is an effective way to bring pressure to bear on the U.N. Louise Schiavone reports from Washington.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LOUISE SCHIAVONE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Lawmakers charged that the U.N.'s oil-for-food program has been badly corrupted. Designed for humanitarian aid to post-Gulf War Iraq, tens of billions of dollars have been siphoned off, as much as $21 billion by Saddam Hussein, and Congress wants answers.
REP. JEFF FLAKE (R), ARIZONA: They have to release the information so this effort is to say that if they -- until they do, then we ought to withhold a portion of our assessed contributions. Right now we pay 22 percent of the U.N.'s overall budget. And we shouldn't be paying that if they are going to fail to come forward with the information.
SCHIAVONE: The U.S. contributes roughly $1 billion a year to the U.N.. At any given time, peacekeeping costs may be added to that. But a significant piece is dedicated to humanitarian aid and to keeping the nations of the world on speaking rather than fighting terms. Critics of efforts to cut funding say the U.N. is an easy target.
LAWRENCE KORN, CENTER FOR AMERICAN PROGRESS: If you go after the U.N., there's no constituency in the United States and it doesn't cost you any votes. And, in fact, people will think that you're protecting American interests by going after an organization which they've been led to believe does not support our interests.
SCHIAVONE: An independent panel is investigating the Oil for Food program, but Congress wants the U.N. to hand over its records to Washington.
CHRISTOPHER PREBLE, CATO INSTITUTE: With each day that they don't it raises a whole host of questions and conspiracy theories and whatnot. So I think if the U.N. will not do it on their own, there have to be ways to pressure them to do so, and this is one of those ways.
(END VIDEO TAPE)
SCHIAVONE: Lou, with almost 100 lawmakers on board so far, support is growing for legislation to link U.N. funding to their cooperation in the Oil for Food probe. Lou?
DOBBS: Louise, thank you.
The United Nations today unveiled a report that proposes sweeping changes to the organization. The 93-page document calls for amendments to the U.N.'s charter in order to better address the global war on terrorism. It also proposes expanding the Security Council and reforming the General Assembly. This report commissioned by U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan comes just one day after stunning revelations about Annan's son, Kojo. Kojo Annan was paid until this year by a Swiss company at the center of the U.N. Oil for Food scandal. Kofi Annan said he was surprised and disappointed to learn of his son's continued involvement with the company.
Still ahead here tonight, a new threat to American jobs. Another cheap labor market emerging to lure jobs from this country, and this labor market very close at home. And deadlock on Capitol Hill. A bitter dispute over sweeping intelligence reform. Congressman Christopher Shays is a member of the Homeland Security Committee. He blames the president for the failure to move the legislation through Congress. He's my guest here next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Canada has emerged as the latest cheap foreign labor market to draw American jobs out of this country. Bill Tucker has the story.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BILL TUCKER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): O, Canada. While the political relationship can sometimes be rocky, the trading relationship is cozy. Our neighbor to the north is our largest trading partner. We bought nearly $52 billion more from Canada than they bought from us last year. That's the biggest trade deficit with any country other than China and Japan. Now the relationship has a new wrinkle. Outsourcing. Canada is actively seeking it, and American companies are responding.
ROBERT SCOTT, PRICEWATERHOUSECOOPERS CANADA: We're starting to see a recognition that Canada's competing in really a global marketplace for IT services. That wasn't as obvious a couple years ago.
TUCKER: Call centers are projected to grow at an annual rate of nearly 8 percent per year over the next three years. The work ranges from software development, electronic manufacturing to call center work. Cendant, for example, has call centers for its Budget and Avis rental cars, its various hotel chains and resorts. What is it that makes Canada so attractive? It's close, culturally similar, the Canadian government is offering tax incentives, and the provinces hard hit by the loss of industries such as fisheries are responding to their own job crisis. The Province of New Brunswick, for example, is offering Cendant 6,000 Canadian dollars for every full-time position is creates.
MARK BEST, DATAMONITOR: It is very obvious that the provincial governments are aggressively pursuing and aggressively attempting to attract contact center business.
TUCKER: Thanks largely to the exchange rate, it's 20 percent cheaper to do business in Canada than in America.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
TUCKER: But should the dollar continue to slide, the cost difference that they now enjoy will, of course, narrow, and, Lou, that is always an iffy policy whether or not the United States wants to chase a weaker dollar in order to balance its ....
DOBBS: It's interesting, the Canadians losing jobs to India through outsourcing, and now seeking U.S. jobs. I guess assuming that the cycle will break in their favor. TUCKER: Well, interesting concept. You don't hear any Canadian officials out there talking about how outsourcing say good thing, or how it's inevitable. You see governments up there deciding we'd better go get some jobs for our people.
DOBBS: An interesting approach. Thank you very much, Bill Tucker.
Well, while jobs flood out of this country to cheap foreign labor markets, cheap foreign goods are flooding into this country. Wal-Mart now says it will import $18 billion of Chinese goods posing a mounting threat to American jobs and wages. Peter Viles has the story from Los Angeles.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
PETER VILES, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): As partnerships go, it's a friendly one. American business loves to invest in China. Loves the cheap labor, and loves to buy Chinese products. Wal-Mart alone buys $50 million worth of Chinese products every day. But the partnership is so one-sided it's beginning to look like a takeover. First, clothing and toys, but now it's high tech from DVDs to microchips, China is taking over more and more manufacturing for the U.S. economy.
ALAN TONELSON, US BUSINESS AND INDUSTRY COUNCIL: Well, the risk is that China will control more and more of our country's future. Now, we can assume that China will remain as it's been in the recent past, relatively friendly or we could recognize that China's future, both in terms of economics and politics and also geopolitics, could be as unstable and unpredictable as China's past was.
VILES: The U.S. trade deficit with China is running at half a billion dollars a day. The booming economy is creating new consumer brands almost overnight, like Apex, maker of that famous $29 DVD player and its new competitor, Norcent which makes a $38 DVD player, which is why the three scariest words in U.S. industry today according to "BusinessWeek" are "The China Price," a pressure felt as far away as South Korea.
The South Korean Ministry of Commerce warned recently that they believed that South Korea is going to lose its competitive edge to China in key industries where they're currently the leader, particularly cell phones and flat-screen televisions.
VILES: The latest concern is that China will enter the already glutted global market for auto production. Honda and Nissan now plan to export cars from China.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
VILES: There's no mystery to China's economic success. It has an endless supply of cheap labor, a very pro-growth government, and maybe most importantly, right now it has a very friendly relationship with its biggest customer, and that is us, the United States. Lou?
DOBBS: Thank you very much, Peter Viles.
Another American tradition is under fire tonight. This time in suburban New Jersey. For 10 years, the Maplewood School District has had a policy banning the performance of religious music at end of year concerts. In a move that's infuriated some parents, the music director sent a notice reminding teachers to avoid Christmas carols. Maplewood's superintendent of schools told us many parents see school as a safe haven from the inundation of Christmas themes and that Christian children have plenty of opportunities to sing Christmas carols outside of school.
Up next here, the United States is rapidly becoming an overmedicated nation. Could the constant barrage of commercials for prescription drugs be partly to blame? We'll have that special report tonight.
And outrage over the intelligence reform legislation. Congressman Christopher Shays, a member of the Homeland Security Committee, joins me here next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Tonight, "Overmedicated Nation." Pharmaceutical companies are waging an all-out drug war these days, they're spending more money on pushing their existing pills than creating new ones. The goal in this war is, of course, to capture the attention and the money of millions of American consumers. Christine Romans is here with a report. Christine?
CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, everyone knows sex sells. But apparently so does diabetes, high cholesterol and heartburn.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: Cialis is here. Are you ready?
ROMANS (voice-over): Drug companies are bypassing doctors and heading straight to patients, or soon to be patients. Catching them in their living rooms, or reading the paper. They advertise happy, satisfied people, and consumers like what they see.
GARY RUSKIN, COMMERCIAL ALERT: The ads promote a mindset that every problem can be solved with a little pill. And that's not -- it's not true, and it promotes a mindset that I think is really dangerous.
ANNOUNCER: Switch to Crestor, her doctor said.
ROMANS: So-called direct to consumer drug advertising subpoena, almost 30 percent to record levels this year. Drug companies spent more than $3 billion.
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: And you've gotta love that!
ROMANS: Pushing pills to be a better lover, lower cholesterol, or conquer heartburn. That's not counting the hundreds of millions in marketing to doctors and in medical journals and all the free samples. For a drug industry faced with blockbuster drugs losing their patents, selling as many drugs as it can is imperative.
MARCIA ANGELL, HARVARD MEDICAL SCHOOL: You have to remember that there are more normal people in the United States than there are sick people. So if they can convince fairly normal people that they have medical conditions that need treatment, they have greatly expanded their markets.
ROMANS: Drug companies say they're making better informed consumers and helping identify illnesses that might otherwise have gone untreated.
LORI REILLY, PHARMA: What's positive is that when someone actually finds out, by seeing an advertisement, they may, in fact have that condition. They ask their doctor about it and are hopefully on the right course to getting treated for that condition.
ROMANS: Regardless, the Food and Drug Administration has sent a record number of warning letters to drug companies this year, most recently pulling this Viagra ad off the air for false advertising.
ANNOUNCER: That guy. He's back. Ask your doctor if Viagra is right for you.
(END VIDEO TAPE)
ROMANS: Now, Lou, it's debatable whether drug companies are really educating patients. But what's not in question here is that the doctor/patient relationship has changed forever. It used to be that a patient would go to the doctor with a list of symptoms. Today, patients go to their doctor with a list of brand-name medications, a prescription wish list.
DOBBS: I think it's amazing. I think most people would be startled to find doctors responding to a request by a patient for a specific medication.
ROMANS: More and more doctors that I talked to say that more and more patients are walking in with specific requests, saying, "I'd like to know more about this drug," just like the ads, say, go ask your doctor.
DOBBS: Christine Romans, thank you.
DOBBS: Well, joining me this Thursday to talk about this overmedicated nation and the drug risks that millions of us face each day will be FDA whistle blower Dr. David Graham.
When we continue here next, I'll be joined by congressman Chris Shays of Connecticut on the increasingly bitter battle over intelligence reform, now stalled in Congress. Also tonight here, fewer foreign students in American college and universities. Harvard professor Joseph Nye says that's bad news for America. He's my guest here next. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: I'll be talking with Congressman Christopher Shays in just a moment on the stalled intelligence reform legislation. But first, let's take a look at some of the top stories here tonight.
In Texas, the first trial under way in a human smuggling case which left 19 illegal aliens dead after they were abandoned in a trailer last May. Prosecutors say three defendants in the case treated people worse than cattle on their way to the slaughterhouse. Those three defendants face life in prison. Five of the 14 people indicted have pleaded guilty. The others are awaiting trial in Texas and Mexico City.
The president and CEO of the NAACP today said he's stepping down. Kwasi Mfume is credited with reviving the organization during the past nine years. Mfume says he wants a break and wants to spend more time with his family.
And flash floods and landslides have killed nearly 350 people in the eastern Philippines; 150 others are still missing. The region recovering from last week's deadly typhoon. The Philippines is hit with an estimated 20 storms and typhoons each year.
Well, my next guest is a strong supporter of the intelligence reform legislation now stalled in Congress. He says every day we fail to pass reform, we put our nation at risk. Congressman Christopher Shays joins me now from Capitol Hill. Congressman, good to have you with us.
REP. CHRISTOPHER SHAYS (R), SELECT CMTE. ON HOMELAND SEC.: Nice to be with you, Lou.
DOBBS: This legislation that is stalled, you have said squarely that the president would be to blame if it were not moved forward for an up and down vote. Why do you say that?
SHAYS: Well, because when the president engages himself, he doesn't just support legislation. He works for its passage, and he interacts with members of Congress to advocate passage. So whether it's welfare reform or whether it's Medicare prescription or No Child Left Behind or tax cuts, it's very clear what the president thinks because he interacts with so many members.
DOBBS: Congressman, your version of this bill that moved to conference, the House version, included strong border security reform.
SHAYS: Yes.
DOBBS: It included immigration reform as well.
SHAYS: Right. Right.
DOBBS: Identification reform. Why is the Senate so unaccepting of those in conference because the very commission that -- the House leadership has referred, to the Senate leadership has referred to, the 9/11 commission recommended each and every one of those strong measures?
SHAYS: Well, you know, I think the reason why is they look at Pete Wilson, the former governor of California, and he sought to do some real aggressive action with illegal immigration. And he took a big hit. So I think politically, some senators who represent full states are reluctant to do what we need to do. I believe strongly in the immigration provisions in the House.
DOBBS: Right. I know you do.
SHAYS: But I don't want to lose the intelligence portion of the bill by our sticking to this or nothing. And there are some improvements to immigration in the compromise just nothing like what we want.
DOBBS: I think Congressman Sensenbrenner, if I may say so, Congressman, makes great sense when he points out that 19 hijackers on September 11 had 63 valid driver's licenses.
SHAYS: But they also were here legally. And so a lot of what we would do in this bill would not get at what he was interested in. And they had valid passports, which are also used in boarding planes. So he's right, but I think he would be misleading to suggest that with these reforms, we would have stopped them.
DOBBS: That would be exactly the inference because at this point, if we have border security that is not to be reformed, because I think you'd agree that this legislation does very little to even -- on the most modest of margins, addresses the issue. The fact is, there's very little here that is concrete that would go toward stopping a terrorist crossing an American border.
SHAYS: I think it's true that -- and even with this legislation, even with what Mr. Sensenbrenner wants, we would still have terrorists crossing over. The real issue, I think you have to ask yourself, is, you know, we probably got about 25 percent to 30 percent of what we wanted in the House bill in immigration. But we're in the majority. Mr. Sensenbrenner can bring that issue up next year, start fresh, then get half of what he wants or even 30 percent of what he wants, and then come back the next year and do the same. I just know that we will lose the bill if he insists on all the immigration portions being there. And then we won't have intelligence reform, which I really believe we need.
DOBBS: The intelligence reform, great agreement with you on that within Congress, and without and in the community. However, Admiral Bobby Inman, who I know you know, the former director of the National Security Agency, one of the most respected leaders of intelligence work in this country in decades wants to wait on the Intelligence Capabilities Commission headed by Larry Silverman and former senator Chuck Robb. How do you respond to someone as well respected as Admiral Inman and others who says we should, point of fact, wait here?
SHAYS: Well, I guess I would respond this way. We're not running out of time. We've run out of time. That happened on September 11. We have had these reforms being advocated for years. We had the Hart-Rudman, the Gilmore commission, the Bremer commission, all making recommendations which we ignored. So this is nothing we've done in haste. If anything, we've done it dragging and kicking to the altar. But we're at the altar now. I think the president should request a vote and then let each of us debate it. Let's have days to debate it, but then let's ultimately vote one way or the other. Let's not allow it to come before the chamber.
DOBBS: Congressman, I think it's also clear that the leadership in both the House and Senate are a little concerned because as many as 100 Republicans supporting Congressman Sensenbrenner and Hunter on this issue. It's going to require Democrats to step up for the Republicans who are supporting stronger legislation approved by the House. Do you think that will create some discomfort for the Republican leadership?
SHAYS: Well, I think it will create some discomfort. I mean, it's not -- my leadership doesn't like to say they depend on Democrats to get things done, but, you know, there are some times we need to be Americans first and Republicans or Democrats second. And if the president wants to pass major tax reform, if he wants to pass Social Security reform and save Social Security, he is going to have to ask Democrats to participate in that.
DOBBS: And as you point out, so little has been done since September 11 in the way of intelligence reform. But the fact is, nothing has been done whatsoever in terms of improving border security, perhaps only at the margin, and certainly nothing on illegal immigration reform. Congressman -- I'm sorry, go ahead.
SHAYS: Well, I just would suggest to you that there are reforms in this bill. But not the key reform that the Republicans want, which is we want to override the states on the whole issue of license procedures on automobiles.
DOBBS: Do you think we're going to see this up and down vote come next week?
SHAYS: I think we will. I think we will have a vote. I think it will pass. I think it will pass the Senate overwhelmingly and the House by about 60 percent.
DOBBS: Congressman Christopher Shays, good to talk with you.
SHAYS: Likewise.
DOBBS: Still ahead, the number of foreign students in this country on the decline. Why Harvard University Professor Joseph Nye says that will end up costing this country dearly. Professor Nye is my guest here next.
And political fallout from the battle over intelligence reform. I'll be talking about this issue with three of the nation's top political journalists. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) DOBBS: The number of foreign students enrolled in American colleges declined last year for the first time since 1972. My guest tonight argues that heightened security measures are keeping qualified people out of our universities, and he says that will eventually cost us. In an editorial in "The New York Times, " professor Joseph Nye of Harvard wrote, "Ever since September 11th, getting an American visa has been a nightmare of red tape, and the hassles has deterred many foreign student applicants in an effort to exclude a dangerous few, we are keeping out the helpful many."
Professor Nye joins me tonight from Cambridge, Massachusetts. Good to have you with us, professor.
JOSEPH NYE, PROFESSOR, HARVARD: Nice to be with you.
DOBBS: The idea that this country is losing foreign students and somehow putting at risk our educational performance, why do you think it is so important?
NYE: Well, there are economic benefits to the United States, and there are also political benefits. Nearly 600,000 or more foreign students who come to the United States not only produce revenues for universities, but more important, they fill a lot of gaps in science and engineering, Ph.D. programs which Americans are not filling. That's the economic side. The political side is equally important. The ones who go back home go back home with a positive view of the U.S., in most cases, and that increases Americans' soft power, our ability to attract others. And if we're going to win a war on terrorism, we're going to have to have more of that soft power.
DOBBS: I think most of us would endorse that idea. But let's examine this, if we may, professor from a couple of different angles, just exploring some possibilities. One, in the universities that our research staff here contacted over the course of the last couple of days, we couldn't find anybody too concerned, frankly, about the barrier that has risen up for receiving visas to attend American universities.
The second is, there's some suggestion that point of fact the price of an American education is too expensive even for those foreign students who are coming. How do you respond to that?
NYE: Well, it's true that it's an uneven effect. For example, at the top of the food chain in the universities, things aren't so bad. Harvard last year actually had an increase in foreign students.
DOBBS: Right.
NYE: But if you talk to people in some of the smaller universities or some of the state universities, they have Ph.D. opportunities, for example, in civil engineering or nuclear engineering or some areas of chemical engineering which are going unfilled. They can't even pay Americans to take the positions. But they can get foreign students and better foreign students to do that. And a large proportion of those foreign students wind up staying on and working in an American industry afterwards. DOBBS: I'm all for hands across the waters. I assure you. But at the same time, I'm sort of put off by, if you will, a university or academic elitism that would look to foreign students rather than encouraging domestic students to start focusing on natural sciences, mathematics, engineering. Perhaps is there not, in your concern, also something of a natural market adjustment that will force those universities to look and encourage -- look for and encourage American students?
NYE: Well, we obviously ought to do much more on science and engineering education in our high schools, secondary schools. The National Science Board reports that the number of Americans taking science and engineering courses has been declining.
DOBBS: Right.
NYE: And the irony is...
DOBBS: And dramatically, we should point out.
NYE: And dramatically. The irony is we have to fill that gab with foreigners. What we should be doing is improving the quality of science and engineering education at this stage because it's going to take 15 14 or 15 years before we see the benefits. Kids today in middle school have to be taking the math that will help them get a Ph.D. by 2020. So we need both. We need much better work on American education at all levels. But we also are going to need the help that these foreigners provide.
DOBBS: The help that foreigners provide, we should point out the decline is about 2 percent, a little over 2 percent in enrollment. The second thing I have to ask you, just as an economic question, if I may, professor, if those foreign students do not enroll in U.S. universities in large numbers, and that continues to decline, would that also lead to an issue of supply and demand and therefore lower prices and lower tuition costs for American students?
NYE: Well, unfortunately, academic inflation is driven by salaries and competing to get Ph.D.s to stay in academia rather than go out to industry. So it probably wouldn't help that much with academic inflation. And the number 2 percent overall decline that mentioned is correct. But if you look at the areas in science and technology at the research institutions, it's more like 20 percent.
DOBBS: My only argument with you, professor, I think, is I'd like to see those slots start being filled by American students who have received solid educations and are motivated toward natural sciences and mathematics which really is the foundation of our society.
NYE: We don't have any argument on that. I'd like that, too.
DOBBS: Professor Nye, we thank you for being here. We appreciate it and look forward to talking to you again soon.
NYE: Thank you. DOBBS: This year, thousands and thousands of Internet users were interested in one four-letter word, and that word tops Merriam- Webster's list of the top-ten most looked up words of the year. And that four-letter word is "blog," defined as a Web site that contains an online personal journal with reflections, comments and often hyperlinks. Eight of the top 10 words related to major news events such as the presidential election. Popular words included incumbent, electoral and partisan.
Still ahead here, stalled intelligence reform. What Congress and the White House can do to break the deadlock.
Canada, are they really our friend? I'll be joined by three of the nation's leading political journalists to discuss those issues and more when we continue. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Joining me now, three of the country's top political journalists, Ron Brownstein, Karen Tumulty and Roger Simon. Good to have you with us. Let me begin, if I may, Karen with you. The idea that there's stalled intelligence reform legislation. A lot of positioning now. Do you think we're going to see, as Christopher Shays just said to me, a bill voted up and down next week?
KAREN TUMULTY, "TIME" MAGAZINE: I was really struck by that prediction, Lou. Because certainly this looked like long odds against this bill just at this time last week. But I do think that the very strong statements that have come out by the co-chairman of the 9/11 commission, Tom Kean and Lee Hamilton, I think will have gone a long way toward getting this bill out of neutral. And I also think that at some point the political pressure and the president's, you know, obvious ambivalence until now have begun to bite.
DOBBS: Is it ambivalence, Roger Simon, when the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff sends a letter basically saying don't vote for this legislation. And when the secretary of defense basically gives a wink and a nod to those who are opposing it?
ROGER SIMON, "U.S. NEWS & WORLD REPORT": It certainly shows the lack of enthusiasm that until now, the administration has showed for this bill. The relative lack of enthusiasm. After all, President Bush did publicly support it. He supported it again today when he was in Canada. But he's hearing from Congressional conservatives who are saying, look, we had to cast bad votes for you in your first term. We had to vote for No Child Left Behind, which we didn't like, we had to vote for the Medicare drug bill, which we didn't like, the deficit hawks said we had to vote for tax cuts, which we didn't like. We ate those bills for you because you had to get re-elected. Now eat this bill for us because we have to get re-elected. The only trouble with that logic is the president doesn't have to play along with it.
DOBBS: And is it also -- because in talking with Congressman Sensenbrenner, I'll tell you, Ron Brownstein, I sensed a man concerned, speaking on principle, and I'm not so, if you will, cynical that I would think that he was being anything less than sincere when he said he didn't believe that this was addressing important critical issues, border security, immigration reform, and necessary measures to protect the nation.
RON BROWNSTEIN, LOS ANGELES TIMES: Well, I don't think anybody doubts the sincerity of Congressman Sensenbrenner or Congressman Hunter who are leading the opposition to this in the House. The argument from -- as you know, from the commission, from Tom Kean and Lee Hamilton, is that if there are additional concerns on border security, they can be dealt with in another bill.
The risk they see, and I think it's a legitimate risk, is that if you allow this thing to derail now and you have to start all over in the next Congress, the forces of inertia reassert themselves. It is always tough to change, as you know, the bureaucracy in Washington.
DOBBS: Then why in the world would not that inertia apply to immigration reform in January just as they're suggesting it would apply to intelligence reform in January? That doesn't seem to be an overwhelmingly saleable concept.
BROWNSTEIN: Well, the short answer might be, Lou, that the president has an immigration reform agenda that he wants to advance, and that certainly part of the price for advancing that could be attaching some of the border security and document security concerns that the conservatives in the House have raised.
DOBBS: Karen, did that just lock up those conservative votes, because these folks are not going to be any more thrilled with what they are styling as an amnesty program emanating from the White House as they are about intelligence reform that doesn't include border security?
TUMULTY: Well, I think on the intelligence bill, those conservative votes, if that bill actually gets out onto the House floor, a lot of the people who are opposing it in private now, I think, would be forced, by political pressure, to vote for this bill. Immigration is a totally different question. And I do think that the Republicans are so deeply divided on that issue that, in fact, I think the inertia problem for that, if it is not attached to this intelligence bill, you're absolutely right, is going to be -- it's going to make it a lot harder.
DOBBS: Well, things didn't look too easy up in Ottawa today, Roger Simon. The president hands across the borders. What do you think?
SIMON: When demonstrations are more violent in Ottawa than they are in Kiev, you know something is happening in the world. I thought the prime minister of Canada gave a very cool reception to Bush in the joint press conference. He didn't deal with any of the pro forma statements about what a great friend George Bush was or what a great leader. And the Canadians are miffed. They are miffed about the war. They're miffed about our tariffs on soft lumber. They're miffed about our ban on beef. And they're miffed that George Bush cares more about Mexico than he does about Canada. Not surprising for a former governor of Texas. But they feel neglected. This is the first trip George Bush has ever made to Canada as president. And I think it may be his last.
DOBBS: Why his last?
SIMON: Well, because the reception was not all that great. He did not give a speech to Canadian parliament. He turned it down. Most major foreign leaders give a speech, because he was worried about being heckled. And he had violent demonstrations in the streets. Why should he go back and put up with that?
DOBBS: Yes. That was a tradition that ended with Ronald Reagan after he was heckled 20 years ago.
BROWNSTEIN: (UNINTELLIGIBLE)
DOBBS: I'm sorry, Ron.
BROWNSTEIN: I was going to jump in with just a broader point. I think we are fundamentally ambivalent as a country about how much we care about the reception our president receives abroad. Obviously, we want -- we prefer other countries to like us rather than not like us, but it was rather pointed at the Republican Convention that both Dick Cheney and Rudy Giuliani explicitly cited the opposition to President Bush abroad as proof, in their eyes, that he was standing up for America. So you know, we really have, I think, kind of an ambivalence here. On the one hand, no one wants to think of America as a country without friends and allies or with traditional friends and allies angry at us. On the other hand, I think there are many Americans that say if that's the price of President Bush doing what he thinks is right for the country, so be it.
DOBBS: And Karen, $50 billion trade surplus that Canada enjoys with the United States while we suffer a $50 billion-plus deficit, does that salve, do you think, any political animosity that may arise, at least at the margin?
TUMULTY: Well, you know, embedded in that surplus are a lot of individual trade fights as well over things like lumber. I mean, these things go on constantly between the United States and Canada. So although, you know, our two peoples look a lot alike, they sound a lot alike, the fact is that there is tension in this relationship, and there has been and there would be even without the Iraq war.
DOBBS: Absolutely. It's longstanding. It's one that is mutually beneficial and despite it all we seem to manage to co-exist rather neatly over time, here in North America. The idea that the Ukraine is in the grip of a fight over democracy itself, anyone there in the Ukraine, at least, who thinks that this is going to be easy, I haven't heard from them. Yushchenko, what are the prospects that he will actually see another attempted election?
SIMON: Well, the president of -- the current president of the Ukraine called for new elections today. We don't exactly know if that means new elections everywhere, new elections in just some parts of the country, a ban on absentee ballots, which seems to have had the most corruption. But at least it's a positive sign because Kuchma, the current president, was a backer of the pro-Russian candidate who has declared victory. So by calling for new elections, he helps Yushchenko.
DOBBS: We thank you for being here. That has to be the last word. Karen Tumulty, Ron Brownstein and Roger Simon, thank you. Talk to you soon.
BROWNSTEIN: Thank you, Lou.
TUMULTY: Thank you, Lou.
DOBBS: When we continue, a preview of what's ahead tomorrow. Please stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Thanks for being with us tonight. Please join us here tomorrow. We continue our series of special reports on "Overmedicated Nation." Tomorrow, we focus on the lengths that some Americans are going to to bring home the prescription drugs they need but can't afford.
Also, in our "Face-Off," a debate between two leading experts whether the Food and Drug Administration can be trusted with your health and life. Dr. Jerry Ahorn of Harvard Medical School and Dr. Alastair Wood of Vanderbilt University join us. And how the doctor- patient relationship has been damaged by a deluge of drug ads. That special report, please be with us.
For all of us here, good night from New York. "ANDERSON COOPER 360" is next.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired November 30, 2004 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LOU DOBBS, HOST (voice-over): Tonight, the 9/11 Commission demanding a vote on the deadlocked intelligence reform bill. Relatives of Americans killed on September 11 say this bill does nothing to stop terrorists from crossing our borders.
JOAN MOLINARO, MOTHER OF 9/11 VICTIM: No bill should pass the Senate, the House, anywhere, unless it contains immigration reform to secure our borders. You keep my girls alive.
DOBBS: We'll have a live report from Capitol Hill. I'll talk with Congressman Christopher Shays, who blames the White House for stalling the reform legislation.
President Bush visits Canada and finds our neighbors to the north not so friendly.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I want to thank the Canadian people who came out to wave, with all five fingers.
DOBBS: We'll have a live report and three of the country's top political journalists join me.
For the first time in more than 30 years, fewer foreign students are coming from this country to learn. Harvard Professor Joseph Nye says the trend could devastate the country's standing in the world. I'll ask him why he's so upset about this development.
And you can't watch television without seeing a drug company commercial.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: After a simple test, my doctor prescribed Androgen.
DOBBS: Why are the pharmaceutical companies spending more on advertising than on research? We'll have a special report tonight on our "Overmedicated Nation."
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT for Tuesday, November 30. Here now for an hour of news, debate and opinion, is Lou Dobbs.
DOBBS: Good evening. Tonight, the former leaders of the 9/11 Commission are demanding that the White House and Congress revive the now deadlocked intelligence reform legislation. That bill stalled in Congress after senators struck down measures that would have improved border security and prevented illegal aliens from obtaining driver's licenses.
Ed Henry reports from Capitol Hill.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ED HENRY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Tom Kean and Lee Hamilton huddled with Vice President Cheney in a last-ditch lobbying blitz for the stalled intelligence reform bill. The former 9/11 Commission co- chairs are also making their case to Congress, warning of dire consequences if the stalemate isn't broken.
TOM KEAN, FORMER CHAIR, 9/11 COMMISSION: Reform is an urgent matter, and reform simply must not wait until after the next attack.
HENRY: The White House says President Bush wants a deal, despite the objections of Republican committee chairmen James Sensenbrenner and Duncan Hunter.
But one Republican lawmaker suggested if House leaders do not bring the bill up for a vote next week, the president should get the blame.
REP. CHRISTOPHER SHAYS (R), CONNECTICUT: If we don't have a vote on September 11, it will be my feeling that the president didn't weigh in strong enough.
HENRY: Besides the divide between powerful Republicans, there's a split among 9/11 families. Some say this bill isn't strong enough.
DEBRA BURLINGAME, 9/11 FAMILIES FOR SECURE AMERICA: Why we need to have this pass now? I'd rather see it fail than it would be without these revisions.
HENRY: Others say reform can't wait.
BEVERLY ECKERT, 9/11 FAMILY STEERING COMMITTEE: America will be watching what Congress does next week to see who is really running this country. Is it Congressmen Hunter and Sensenbrenner? Is it the Pentagon? Or is it the president?
HENRY: One woman who lost her son on 9/11, argued passionately that Sensenbrenner's immigration provisions be included.
JOAN MOLINARO, 9/11 FAMILIES FOR SECURE AMERICA: No bill should pass the Senate, the House, anywhere, unless it contains immigration reform. You secure our borders. You keep my girls alive. You allowed the murder of my son. I will not allow you to kill my daughters.
HENRY: Former 9/11 commissioners, meanwhile, disputed Hunter's contention that a new director of national intelligence will hinder key information from reaching military troops in the field.
LEE HAMILTON, VICE CHAIR, 9/11 COMMISSION: It is wartime. We would not support a bill that undercuts support to our troops. The commander in chief supports this bill.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HENRY: Republican Congressman Chris Shays today challenged President Bush to come up to Capitol Hill next week and make the case for this legislation behind closed doors. Shays is convinced that a direct appeal from the president will sway a majority of Republicans and finally get this bill done -- Lou.
DOBBS: Ed, is the Senate -- the senators in the conference committee that threw out the immigration reform, the improved border security, why is there no focus at all in all of this on the fact that the Senate is actually obstructing what was intended by the House in its full-measure vote?
HENRY: That's right. We made this point in a piece about a week or so ago.
Congressman Sensenbrenner has been pointing out that when he had a phone conversation with President Bush that was reported on a lot, they actually worked out a bit of a compromise on some of these immigration provisions.
They brought it back to the Senate conferees, and people like Senator Joe Lieberman, Senator Susan Collins pretty much laughed it off, according to people in the room, and said that they did not want these provisions.
But I can tell you that the Senate conferees insist that these immigration provisions went much further than what Sensenbrenner has already been talking about, that they went far beyond what has been discussed behind closed doors, and that it would have sunk the entire bill.
And they're trying to at least get something done this year, and they say they will come back and look at the immigration reform next year, Lou.
DOBBS: Is there any reason at all for the Republicans in the House, who have supported Congressman Hunter and congressman Sensenbrenner, to believe that a Senate that will not consider immigration reform or improve border security now with full political heat upon them would be in any better mood to consider both of those critical issues come January?
HENRY: Well, there's one big difference in January, Lou, and that's the fact that there will be four more Republican seats in the Senate. So presumably, there is the possibility that Republicans in the Senate could have a stronger hand to push some of this immigration reform.
Obviously, some people think they still will not do it in January, as you suggest. But there are some people on Capitol Hill who believe that if at least part of the job is done now, Republican leaders in the Senate will have a much stronger hand in January to try to push what Jim Sensenbrenner is trying to get.
But Sensenbrenner, as you know, has said he's not going to wait. He's not going to buy that. He doesn't believe that's going to happen. He wants it now, Lou.
DOBBS: Ed Henry reporting from Capitol Hill, thank you.
Well, as Ed just reported, Congressman Christopher Shays blames the White House for stalling intelligence reform, and Congressman Shays is my guest, still ahead here tonight.
President Bush today reiterated his calls for Congress to send him an intelligence reform bill. President Bush spoke at a joint news conference with Canadian Prime Minister Paul Martin in Ottawa.
The two leaders discussed a number of issues, including Canada's refusal to support the United States in Iraq. They also discussed the 5,000-mile-long border between our two countries, which is largely unprotected.
John King is in Ottawa and has the report -- John.
JOHN KING, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, this trip designed to put U.S./Canada relations on a better track after those bitter disputes over Iraq, nasty trade disputes between these two governments, as well. But as Ed Henry noted, this dispute back in the United States over intelligence reform following the president on this trip.
At the news conference after his discussions with Prime Minister Martin, Mr. Bush was asked about critics back home who say he's trying to have it both ways, that on the one hand, he says he is for this intelligence reform measure, but that he is not willing to put public and sustained pressure on the Republicans in his party who are blocking this bill from becoming a reality.
Mr. Bush saying he is prepared to put that pressure on them, saying he would meet with the congressional leadership when he gets back to Washington later in the week. The president said there should be no doubt that he wants this legislation to reach his desk and reach it soon.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BUSH: I believe the bill is necessary and important and hope we can get it done next week. And look forward to talking to Speaker Hastert and Leader Frist here before the week is out to express to them why I just told you in public I'm for the bill, again.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: On the streets here by the thousands, demonstrators voicing their opposition to President Bush and to the war in Iraq. Mostly "give peace a chance," you see there. The demonstrators saying they believe U.S. foreign policy and the U.S. president put war ahead of diplomacy, a reminder of the steep challenge the president faces as he tries heading into his second term to mend relationships that were bruised by the debate over Iraq.
Mr. Bush at his news conference on the one hand defiant. Asked about polls here showing Canadians oppose his foreign policy, the president said the American people just had a poll, and they voted for four more years of the Bush foreign policy.
But the president also trying to have a bit of a humorous approach, noting that he did see some supporters as he drove in from the airport.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BUSH: I frankly felt like the reception we received on the we in from the airport was very warm and hospitable, and I want to thank the Canadian people who came out to wave, with all five fingers, for -- for their hospitality.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: A bit of humor from the president there. The trade disputes not resolved, although Mr. Bush clearly, Lou, has a much better relationship with this Canadian prime minister, Mr. Martin, than his predecessor, Jean Chretien -- Lou.
DOBBS: John, thank you very much, our senior White House correspondent John King.
Before President Bush left for Canada today, he accepted the resignation of Homeland Security Secretary Tom Ridge. Ridge says he will stay in his position until February unless his replacement is confirmed before then. The White House has not said who President Bush will nominate to replace him.
In Iraq tonight, five American soldiers have been wounded after a car bombing west of Baghdad. Insurgents attacked a military convoy on the road to Baghdad's airport. Two separate attacks in the northern town of Baiji killed seven Iraqis. Twenty people were wounded in those attacks, including three American soldiers.
On Capitol Hill tonight, some lawmakers are calling for a cut in U.S. funding of the United Nations. At issue is the U.N.'s failure to release detailed information about the corrupt oil-for-food program in Iraq.
One lawmaker says a cut in funding is an effective way to bring pressure to bear on the U.N. Louise Schiavone reports from Washington.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LOUISE SCHIAVONE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Lawmakers charged that the U.N.'s oil-for-food program has been badly corrupted. Designed for humanitarian aid to post-Gulf War Iraq, tens of billions of dollars have been siphoned off, as much as $21 billion by Saddam Hussein, and Congress wants answers.
REP. JEFF FLAKE (R), ARIZONA: They have to release the information so this effort is to say that if they -- until they do, then we ought to withhold a portion of our assessed contributions. Right now we pay 22 percent of the U.N.'s overall budget. And we shouldn't be paying that if they are going to fail to come forward with the information.
SCHIAVONE: The U.S. contributes roughly $1 billion a year to the U.N.. At any given time, peacekeeping costs may be added to that. But a significant piece is dedicated to humanitarian aid and to keeping the nations of the world on speaking rather than fighting terms. Critics of efforts to cut funding say the U.N. is an easy target.
LAWRENCE KORN, CENTER FOR AMERICAN PROGRESS: If you go after the U.N., there's no constituency in the United States and it doesn't cost you any votes. And, in fact, people will think that you're protecting American interests by going after an organization which they've been led to believe does not support our interests.
SCHIAVONE: An independent panel is investigating the Oil for Food program, but Congress wants the U.N. to hand over its records to Washington.
CHRISTOPHER PREBLE, CATO INSTITUTE: With each day that they don't it raises a whole host of questions and conspiracy theories and whatnot. So I think if the U.N. will not do it on their own, there have to be ways to pressure them to do so, and this is one of those ways.
(END VIDEO TAPE)
SCHIAVONE: Lou, with almost 100 lawmakers on board so far, support is growing for legislation to link U.N. funding to their cooperation in the Oil for Food probe. Lou?
DOBBS: Louise, thank you.
The United Nations today unveiled a report that proposes sweeping changes to the organization. The 93-page document calls for amendments to the U.N.'s charter in order to better address the global war on terrorism. It also proposes expanding the Security Council and reforming the General Assembly. This report commissioned by U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan comes just one day after stunning revelations about Annan's son, Kojo. Kojo Annan was paid until this year by a Swiss company at the center of the U.N. Oil for Food scandal. Kofi Annan said he was surprised and disappointed to learn of his son's continued involvement with the company.
Still ahead here tonight, a new threat to American jobs. Another cheap labor market emerging to lure jobs from this country, and this labor market very close at home. And deadlock on Capitol Hill. A bitter dispute over sweeping intelligence reform. Congressman Christopher Shays is a member of the Homeland Security Committee. He blames the president for the failure to move the legislation through Congress. He's my guest here next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Canada has emerged as the latest cheap foreign labor market to draw American jobs out of this country. Bill Tucker has the story.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BILL TUCKER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): O, Canada. While the political relationship can sometimes be rocky, the trading relationship is cozy. Our neighbor to the north is our largest trading partner. We bought nearly $52 billion more from Canada than they bought from us last year. That's the biggest trade deficit with any country other than China and Japan. Now the relationship has a new wrinkle. Outsourcing. Canada is actively seeking it, and American companies are responding.
ROBERT SCOTT, PRICEWATERHOUSECOOPERS CANADA: We're starting to see a recognition that Canada's competing in really a global marketplace for IT services. That wasn't as obvious a couple years ago.
TUCKER: Call centers are projected to grow at an annual rate of nearly 8 percent per year over the next three years. The work ranges from software development, electronic manufacturing to call center work. Cendant, for example, has call centers for its Budget and Avis rental cars, its various hotel chains and resorts. What is it that makes Canada so attractive? It's close, culturally similar, the Canadian government is offering tax incentives, and the provinces hard hit by the loss of industries such as fisheries are responding to their own job crisis. The Province of New Brunswick, for example, is offering Cendant 6,000 Canadian dollars for every full-time position is creates.
MARK BEST, DATAMONITOR: It is very obvious that the provincial governments are aggressively pursuing and aggressively attempting to attract contact center business.
TUCKER: Thanks largely to the exchange rate, it's 20 percent cheaper to do business in Canada than in America.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
TUCKER: But should the dollar continue to slide, the cost difference that they now enjoy will, of course, narrow, and, Lou, that is always an iffy policy whether or not the United States wants to chase a weaker dollar in order to balance its ....
DOBBS: It's interesting, the Canadians losing jobs to India through outsourcing, and now seeking U.S. jobs. I guess assuming that the cycle will break in their favor. TUCKER: Well, interesting concept. You don't hear any Canadian officials out there talking about how outsourcing say good thing, or how it's inevitable. You see governments up there deciding we'd better go get some jobs for our people.
DOBBS: An interesting approach. Thank you very much, Bill Tucker.
Well, while jobs flood out of this country to cheap foreign labor markets, cheap foreign goods are flooding into this country. Wal-Mart now says it will import $18 billion of Chinese goods posing a mounting threat to American jobs and wages. Peter Viles has the story from Los Angeles.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
PETER VILES, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): As partnerships go, it's a friendly one. American business loves to invest in China. Loves the cheap labor, and loves to buy Chinese products. Wal-Mart alone buys $50 million worth of Chinese products every day. But the partnership is so one-sided it's beginning to look like a takeover. First, clothing and toys, but now it's high tech from DVDs to microchips, China is taking over more and more manufacturing for the U.S. economy.
ALAN TONELSON, US BUSINESS AND INDUSTRY COUNCIL: Well, the risk is that China will control more and more of our country's future. Now, we can assume that China will remain as it's been in the recent past, relatively friendly or we could recognize that China's future, both in terms of economics and politics and also geopolitics, could be as unstable and unpredictable as China's past was.
VILES: The U.S. trade deficit with China is running at half a billion dollars a day. The booming economy is creating new consumer brands almost overnight, like Apex, maker of that famous $29 DVD player and its new competitor, Norcent which makes a $38 DVD player, which is why the three scariest words in U.S. industry today according to "BusinessWeek" are "The China Price," a pressure felt as far away as South Korea.
The South Korean Ministry of Commerce warned recently that they believed that South Korea is going to lose its competitive edge to China in key industries where they're currently the leader, particularly cell phones and flat-screen televisions.
VILES: The latest concern is that China will enter the already glutted global market for auto production. Honda and Nissan now plan to export cars from China.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
VILES: There's no mystery to China's economic success. It has an endless supply of cheap labor, a very pro-growth government, and maybe most importantly, right now it has a very friendly relationship with its biggest customer, and that is us, the United States. Lou?
DOBBS: Thank you very much, Peter Viles.
Another American tradition is under fire tonight. This time in suburban New Jersey. For 10 years, the Maplewood School District has had a policy banning the performance of religious music at end of year concerts. In a move that's infuriated some parents, the music director sent a notice reminding teachers to avoid Christmas carols. Maplewood's superintendent of schools told us many parents see school as a safe haven from the inundation of Christmas themes and that Christian children have plenty of opportunities to sing Christmas carols outside of school.
Up next here, the United States is rapidly becoming an overmedicated nation. Could the constant barrage of commercials for prescription drugs be partly to blame? We'll have that special report tonight.
And outrage over the intelligence reform legislation. Congressman Christopher Shays, a member of the Homeland Security Committee, joins me here next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Tonight, "Overmedicated Nation." Pharmaceutical companies are waging an all-out drug war these days, they're spending more money on pushing their existing pills than creating new ones. The goal in this war is, of course, to capture the attention and the money of millions of American consumers. Christine Romans is here with a report. Christine?
CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, everyone knows sex sells. But apparently so does diabetes, high cholesterol and heartburn.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: Cialis is here. Are you ready?
ROMANS (voice-over): Drug companies are bypassing doctors and heading straight to patients, or soon to be patients. Catching them in their living rooms, or reading the paper. They advertise happy, satisfied people, and consumers like what they see.
GARY RUSKIN, COMMERCIAL ALERT: The ads promote a mindset that every problem can be solved with a little pill. And that's not -- it's not true, and it promotes a mindset that I think is really dangerous.
ANNOUNCER: Switch to Crestor, her doctor said.
ROMANS: So-called direct to consumer drug advertising subpoena, almost 30 percent to record levels this year. Drug companies spent more than $3 billion.
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: And you've gotta love that!
ROMANS: Pushing pills to be a better lover, lower cholesterol, or conquer heartburn. That's not counting the hundreds of millions in marketing to doctors and in medical journals and all the free samples. For a drug industry faced with blockbuster drugs losing their patents, selling as many drugs as it can is imperative.
MARCIA ANGELL, HARVARD MEDICAL SCHOOL: You have to remember that there are more normal people in the United States than there are sick people. So if they can convince fairly normal people that they have medical conditions that need treatment, they have greatly expanded their markets.
ROMANS: Drug companies say they're making better informed consumers and helping identify illnesses that might otherwise have gone untreated.
LORI REILLY, PHARMA: What's positive is that when someone actually finds out, by seeing an advertisement, they may, in fact have that condition. They ask their doctor about it and are hopefully on the right course to getting treated for that condition.
ROMANS: Regardless, the Food and Drug Administration has sent a record number of warning letters to drug companies this year, most recently pulling this Viagra ad off the air for false advertising.
ANNOUNCER: That guy. He's back. Ask your doctor if Viagra is right for you.
(END VIDEO TAPE)
ROMANS: Now, Lou, it's debatable whether drug companies are really educating patients. But what's not in question here is that the doctor/patient relationship has changed forever. It used to be that a patient would go to the doctor with a list of symptoms. Today, patients go to their doctor with a list of brand-name medications, a prescription wish list.
DOBBS: I think it's amazing. I think most people would be startled to find doctors responding to a request by a patient for a specific medication.
ROMANS: More and more doctors that I talked to say that more and more patients are walking in with specific requests, saying, "I'd like to know more about this drug," just like the ads, say, go ask your doctor.
DOBBS: Christine Romans, thank you.
DOBBS: Well, joining me this Thursday to talk about this overmedicated nation and the drug risks that millions of us face each day will be FDA whistle blower Dr. David Graham.
When we continue here next, I'll be joined by congressman Chris Shays of Connecticut on the increasingly bitter battle over intelligence reform, now stalled in Congress. Also tonight here, fewer foreign students in American college and universities. Harvard professor Joseph Nye says that's bad news for America. He's my guest here next. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: I'll be talking with Congressman Christopher Shays in just a moment on the stalled intelligence reform legislation. But first, let's take a look at some of the top stories here tonight.
In Texas, the first trial under way in a human smuggling case which left 19 illegal aliens dead after they were abandoned in a trailer last May. Prosecutors say three defendants in the case treated people worse than cattle on their way to the slaughterhouse. Those three defendants face life in prison. Five of the 14 people indicted have pleaded guilty. The others are awaiting trial in Texas and Mexico City.
The president and CEO of the NAACP today said he's stepping down. Kwasi Mfume is credited with reviving the organization during the past nine years. Mfume says he wants a break and wants to spend more time with his family.
And flash floods and landslides have killed nearly 350 people in the eastern Philippines; 150 others are still missing. The region recovering from last week's deadly typhoon. The Philippines is hit with an estimated 20 storms and typhoons each year.
Well, my next guest is a strong supporter of the intelligence reform legislation now stalled in Congress. He says every day we fail to pass reform, we put our nation at risk. Congressman Christopher Shays joins me now from Capitol Hill. Congressman, good to have you with us.
REP. CHRISTOPHER SHAYS (R), SELECT CMTE. ON HOMELAND SEC.: Nice to be with you, Lou.
DOBBS: This legislation that is stalled, you have said squarely that the president would be to blame if it were not moved forward for an up and down vote. Why do you say that?
SHAYS: Well, because when the president engages himself, he doesn't just support legislation. He works for its passage, and he interacts with members of Congress to advocate passage. So whether it's welfare reform or whether it's Medicare prescription or No Child Left Behind or tax cuts, it's very clear what the president thinks because he interacts with so many members.
DOBBS: Congressman, your version of this bill that moved to conference, the House version, included strong border security reform.
SHAYS: Yes.
DOBBS: It included immigration reform as well.
SHAYS: Right. Right.
DOBBS: Identification reform. Why is the Senate so unaccepting of those in conference because the very commission that -- the House leadership has referred, to the Senate leadership has referred to, the 9/11 commission recommended each and every one of those strong measures?
SHAYS: Well, you know, I think the reason why is they look at Pete Wilson, the former governor of California, and he sought to do some real aggressive action with illegal immigration. And he took a big hit. So I think politically, some senators who represent full states are reluctant to do what we need to do. I believe strongly in the immigration provisions in the House.
DOBBS: Right. I know you do.
SHAYS: But I don't want to lose the intelligence portion of the bill by our sticking to this or nothing. And there are some improvements to immigration in the compromise just nothing like what we want.
DOBBS: I think Congressman Sensenbrenner, if I may say so, Congressman, makes great sense when he points out that 19 hijackers on September 11 had 63 valid driver's licenses.
SHAYS: But they also were here legally. And so a lot of what we would do in this bill would not get at what he was interested in. And they had valid passports, which are also used in boarding planes. So he's right, but I think he would be misleading to suggest that with these reforms, we would have stopped them.
DOBBS: That would be exactly the inference because at this point, if we have border security that is not to be reformed, because I think you'd agree that this legislation does very little to even -- on the most modest of margins, addresses the issue. The fact is, there's very little here that is concrete that would go toward stopping a terrorist crossing an American border.
SHAYS: I think it's true that -- and even with this legislation, even with what Mr. Sensenbrenner wants, we would still have terrorists crossing over. The real issue, I think you have to ask yourself, is, you know, we probably got about 25 percent to 30 percent of what we wanted in the House bill in immigration. But we're in the majority. Mr. Sensenbrenner can bring that issue up next year, start fresh, then get half of what he wants or even 30 percent of what he wants, and then come back the next year and do the same. I just know that we will lose the bill if he insists on all the immigration portions being there. And then we won't have intelligence reform, which I really believe we need.
DOBBS: The intelligence reform, great agreement with you on that within Congress, and without and in the community. However, Admiral Bobby Inman, who I know you know, the former director of the National Security Agency, one of the most respected leaders of intelligence work in this country in decades wants to wait on the Intelligence Capabilities Commission headed by Larry Silverman and former senator Chuck Robb. How do you respond to someone as well respected as Admiral Inman and others who says we should, point of fact, wait here?
SHAYS: Well, I guess I would respond this way. We're not running out of time. We've run out of time. That happened on September 11. We have had these reforms being advocated for years. We had the Hart-Rudman, the Gilmore commission, the Bremer commission, all making recommendations which we ignored. So this is nothing we've done in haste. If anything, we've done it dragging and kicking to the altar. But we're at the altar now. I think the president should request a vote and then let each of us debate it. Let's have days to debate it, but then let's ultimately vote one way or the other. Let's not allow it to come before the chamber.
DOBBS: Congressman, I think it's also clear that the leadership in both the House and Senate are a little concerned because as many as 100 Republicans supporting Congressman Sensenbrenner and Hunter on this issue. It's going to require Democrats to step up for the Republicans who are supporting stronger legislation approved by the House. Do you think that will create some discomfort for the Republican leadership?
SHAYS: Well, I think it will create some discomfort. I mean, it's not -- my leadership doesn't like to say they depend on Democrats to get things done, but, you know, there are some times we need to be Americans first and Republicans or Democrats second. And if the president wants to pass major tax reform, if he wants to pass Social Security reform and save Social Security, he is going to have to ask Democrats to participate in that.
DOBBS: And as you point out, so little has been done since September 11 in the way of intelligence reform. But the fact is, nothing has been done whatsoever in terms of improving border security, perhaps only at the margin, and certainly nothing on illegal immigration reform. Congressman -- I'm sorry, go ahead.
SHAYS: Well, I just would suggest to you that there are reforms in this bill. But not the key reform that the Republicans want, which is we want to override the states on the whole issue of license procedures on automobiles.
DOBBS: Do you think we're going to see this up and down vote come next week?
SHAYS: I think we will. I think we will have a vote. I think it will pass. I think it will pass the Senate overwhelmingly and the House by about 60 percent.
DOBBS: Congressman Christopher Shays, good to talk with you.
SHAYS: Likewise.
DOBBS: Still ahead, the number of foreign students in this country on the decline. Why Harvard University Professor Joseph Nye says that will end up costing this country dearly. Professor Nye is my guest here next.
And political fallout from the battle over intelligence reform. I'll be talking about this issue with three of the nation's top political journalists. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) DOBBS: The number of foreign students enrolled in American colleges declined last year for the first time since 1972. My guest tonight argues that heightened security measures are keeping qualified people out of our universities, and he says that will eventually cost us. In an editorial in "The New York Times, " professor Joseph Nye of Harvard wrote, "Ever since September 11th, getting an American visa has been a nightmare of red tape, and the hassles has deterred many foreign student applicants in an effort to exclude a dangerous few, we are keeping out the helpful many."
Professor Nye joins me tonight from Cambridge, Massachusetts. Good to have you with us, professor.
JOSEPH NYE, PROFESSOR, HARVARD: Nice to be with you.
DOBBS: The idea that this country is losing foreign students and somehow putting at risk our educational performance, why do you think it is so important?
NYE: Well, there are economic benefits to the United States, and there are also political benefits. Nearly 600,000 or more foreign students who come to the United States not only produce revenues for universities, but more important, they fill a lot of gaps in science and engineering, Ph.D. programs which Americans are not filling. That's the economic side. The political side is equally important. The ones who go back home go back home with a positive view of the U.S., in most cases, and that increases Americans' soft power, our ability to attract others. And if we're going to win a war on terrorism, we're going to have to have more of that soft power.
DOBBS: I think most of us would endorse that idea. But let's examine this, if we may, professor from a couple of different angles, just exploring some possibilities. One, in the universities that our research staff here contacted over the course of the last couple of days, we couldn't find anybody too concerned, frankly, about the barrier that has risen up for receiving visas to attend American universities.
The second is, there's some suggestion that point of fact the price of an American education is too expensive even for those foreign students who are coming. How do you respond to that?
NYE: Well, it's true that it's an uneven effect. For example, at the top of the food chain in the universities, things aren't so bad. Harvard last year actually had an increase in foreign students.
DOBBS: Right.
NYE: But if you talk to people in some of the smaller universities or some of the state universities, they have Ph.D. opportunities, for example, in civil engineering or nuclear engineering or some areas of chemical engineering which are going unfilled. They can't even pay Americans to take the positions. But they can get foreign students and better foreign students to do that. And a large proportion of those foreign students wind up staying on and working in an American industry afterwards. DOBBS: I'm all for hands across the waters. I assure you. But at the same time, I'm sort of put off by, if you will, a university or academic elitism that would look to foreign students rather than encouraging domestic students to start focusing on natural sciences, mathematics, engineering. Perhaps is there not, in your concern, also something of a natural market adjustment that will force those universities to look and encourage -- look for and encourage American students?
NYE: Well, we obviously ought to do much more on science and engineering education in our high schools, secondary schools. The National Science Board reports that the number of Americans taking science and engineering courses has been declining.
DOBBS: Right.
NYE: And the irony is...
DOBBS: And dramatically, we should point out.
NYE: And dramatically. The irony is we have to fill that gab with foreigners. What we should be doing is improving the quality of science and engineering education at this stage because it's going to take 15 14 or 15 years before we see the benefits. Kids today in middle school have to be taking the math that will help them get a Ph.D. by 2020. So we need both. We need much better work on American education at all levels. But we also are going to need the help that these foreigners provide.
DOBBS: The help that foreigners provide, we should point out the decline is about 2 percent, a little over 2 percent in enrollment. The second thing I have to ask you, just as an economic question, if I may, professor, if those foreign students do not enroll in U.S. universities in large numbers, and that continues to decline, would that also lead to an issue of supply and demand and therefore lower prices and lower tuition costs for American students?
NYE: Well, unfortunately, academic inflation is driven by salaries and competing to get Ph.D.s to stay in academia rather than go out to industry. So it probably wouldn't help that much with academic inflation. And the number 2 percent overall decline that mentioned is correct. But if you look at the areas in science and technology at the research institutions, it's more like 20 percent.
DOBBS: My only argument with you, professor, I think, is I'd like to see those slots start being filled by American students who have received solid educations and are motivated toward natural sciences and mathematics which really is the foundation of our society.
NYE: We don't have any argument on that. I'd like that, too.
DOBBS: Professor Nye, we thank you for being here. We appreciate it and look forward to talking to you again soon.
NYE: Thank you. DOBBS: This year, thousands and thousands of Internet users were interested in one four-letter word, and that word tops Merriam- Webster's list of the top-ten most looked up words of the year. And that four-letter word is "blog," defined as a Web site that contains an online personal journal with reflections, comments and often hyperlinks. Eight of the top 10 words related to major news events such as the presidential election. Popular words included incumbent, electoral and partisan.
Still ahead here, stalled intelligence reform. What Congress and the White House can do to break the deadlock.
Canada, are they really our friend? I'll be joined by three of the nation's leading political journalists to discuss those issues and more when we continue. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Joining me now, three of the country's top political journalists, Ron Brownstein, Karen Tumulty and Roger Simon. Good to have you with us. Let me begin, if I may, Karen with you. The idea that there's stalled intelligence reform legislation. A lot of positioning now. Do you think we're going to see, as Christopher Shays just said to me, a bill voted up and down next week?
KAREN TUMULTY, "TIME" MAGAZINE: I was really struck by that prediction, Lou. Because certainly this looked like long odds against this bill just at this time last week. But I do think that the very strong statements that have come out by the co-chairman of the 9/11 commission, Tom Kean and Lee Hamilton, I think will have gone a long way toward getting this bill out of neutral. And I also think that at some point the political pressure and the president's, you know, obvious ambivalence until now have begun to bite.
DOBBS: Is it ambivalence, Roger Simon, when the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff sends a letter basically saying don't vote for this legislation. And when the secretary of defense basically gives a wink and a nod to those who are opposing it?
ROGER SIMON, "U.S. NEWS & WORLD REPORT": It certainly shows the lack of enthusiasm that until now, the administration has showed for this bill. The relative lack of enthusiasm. After all, President Bush did publicly support it. He supported it again today when he was in Canada. But he's hearing from Congressional conservatives who are saying, look, we had to cast bad votes for you in your first term. We had to vote for No Child Left Behind, which we didn't like, we had to vote for the Medicare drug bill, which we didn't like, the deficit hawks said we had to vote for tax cuts, which we didn't like. We ate those bills for you because you had to get re-elected. Now eat this bill for us because we have to get re-elected. The only trouble with that logic is the president doesn't have to play along with it.
DOBBS: And is it also -- because in talking with Congressman Sensenbrenner, I'll tell you, Ron Brownstein, I sensed a man concerned, speaking on principle, and I'm not so, if you will, cynical that I would think that he was being anything less than sincere when he said he didn't believe that this was addressing important critical issues, border security, immigration reform, and necessary measures to protect the nation.
RON BROWNSTEIN, LOS ANGELES TIMES: Well, I don't think anybody doubts the sincerity of Congressman Sensenbrenner or Congressman Hunter who are leading the opposition to this in the House. The argument from -- as you know, from the commission, from Tom Kean and Lee Hamilton, is that if there are additional concerns on border security, they can be dealt with in another bill.
The risk they see, and I think it's a legitimate risk, is that if you allow this thing to derail now and you have to start all over in the next Congress, the forces of inertia reassert themselves. It is always tough to change, as you know, the bureaucracy in Washington.
DOBBS: Then why in the world would not that inertia apply to immigration reform in January just as they're suggesting it would apply to intelligence reform in January? That doesn't seem to be an overwhelmingly saleable concept.
BROWNSTEIN: Well, the short answer might be, Lou, that the president has an immigration reform agenda that he wants to advance, and that certainly part of the price for advancing that could be attaching some of the border security and document security concerns that the conservatives in the House have raised.
DOBBS: Karen, did that just lock up those conservative votes, because these folks are not going to be any more thrilled with what they are styling as an amnesty program emanating from the White House as they are about intelligence reform that doesn't include border security?
TUMULTY: Well, I think on the intelligence bill, those conservative votes, if that bill actually gets out onto the House floor, a lot of the people who are opposing it in private now, I think, would be forced, by political pressure, to vote for this bill. Immigration is a totally different question. And I do think that the Republicans are so deeply divided on that issue that, in fact, I think the inertia problem for that, if it is not attached to this intelligence bill, you're absolutely right, is going to be -- it's going to make it a lot harder.
DOBBS: Well, things didn't look too easy up in Ottawa today, Roger Simon. The president hands across the borders. What do you think?
SIMON: When demonstrations are more violent in Ottawa than they are in Kiev, you know something is happening in the world. I thought the prime minister of Canada gave a very cool reception to Bush in the joint press conference. He didn't deal with any of the pro forma statements about what a great friend George Bush was or what a great leader. And the Canadians are miffed. They are miffed about the war. They're miffed about our tariffs on soft lumber. They're miffed about our ban on beef. And they're miffed that George Bush cares more about Mexico than he does about Canada. Not surprising for a former governor of Texas. But they feel neglected. This is the first trip George Bush has ever made to Canada as president. And I think it may be his last.
DOBBS: Why his last?
SIMON: Well, because the reception was not all that great. He did not give a speech to Canadian parliament. He turned it down. Most major foreign leaders give a speech, because he was worried about being heckled. And he had violent demonstrations in the streets. Why should he go back and put up with that?
DOBBS: Yes. That was a tradition that ended with Ronald Reagan after he was heckled 20 years ago.
BROWNSTEIN: (UNINTELLIGIBLE)
DOBBS: I'm sorry, Ron.
BROWNSTEIN: I was going to jump in with just a broader point. I think we are fundamentally ambivalent as a country about how much we care about the reception our president receives abroad. Obviously, we want -- we prefer other countries to like us rather than not like us, but it was rather pointed at the Republican Convention that both Dick Cheney and Rudy Giuliani explicitly cited the opposition to President Bush abroad as proof, in their eyes, that he was standing up for America. So you know, we really have, I think, kind of an ambivalence here. On the one hand, no one wants to think of America as a country without friends and allies or with traditional friends and allies angry at us. On the other hand, I think there are many Americans that say if that's the price of President Bush doing what he thinks is right for the country, so be it.
DOBBS: And Karen, $50 billion trade surplus that Canada enjoys with the United States while we suffer a $50 billion-plus deficit, does that salve, do you think, any political animosity that may arise, at least at the margin?
TUMULTY: Well, you know, embedded in that surplus are a lot of individual trade fights as well over things like lumber. I mean, these things go on constantly between the United States and Canada. So although, you know, our two peoples look a lot alike, they sound a lot alike, the fact is that there is tension in this relationship, and there has been and there would be even without the Iraq war.
DOBBS: Absolutely. It's longstanding. It's one that is mutually beneficial and despite it all we seem to manage to co-exist rather neatly over time, here in North America. The idea that the Ukraine is in the grip of a fight over democracy itself, anyone there in the Ukraine, at least, who thinks that this is going to be easy, I haven't heard from them. Yushchenko, what are the prospects that he will actually see another attempted election?
SIMON: Well, the president of -- the current president of the Ukraine called for new elections today. We don't exactly know if that means new elections everywhere, new elections in just some parts of the country, a ban on absentee ballots, which seems to have had the most corruption. But at least it's a positive sign because Kuchma, the current president, was a backer of the pro-Russian candidate who has declared victory. So by calling for new elections, he helps Yushchenko.
DOBBS: We thank you for being here. That has to be the last word. Karen Tumulty, Ron Brownstein and Roger Simon, thank you. Talk to you soon.
BROWNSTEIN: Thank you, Lou.
TUMULTY: Thank you, Lou.
DOBBS: When we continue, a preview of what's ahead tomorrow. Please stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Thanks for being with us tonight. Please join us here tomorrow. We continue our series of special reports on "Overmedicated Nation." Tomorrow, we focus on the lengths that some Americans are going to to bring home the prescription drugs they need but can't afford.
Also, in our "Face-Off," a debate between two leading experts whether the Food and Drug Administration can be trusted with your health and life. Dr. Jerry Ahorn of Harvard Medical School and Dr. Alastair Wood of Vanderbilt University join us. And how the doctor- patient relationship has been damaged by a deluge of drug ads. That special report, please be with us.
For all of us here, good night from New York. "ANDERSON COOPER 360" is next.
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