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Lou Dobbs Tonight

Pentagon Says It's Working to Arm Vehicles; New Technology Increases Battle Survival Rates

Aired December 09, 2004 - 18:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LOU DOBBS, HOST (voice-over): Tonight, protecting our troops. President Bush insists the military is addressing concerns that our troops don't have enough armor in Iraq and Afghanistan.

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We expect our troops to have the best possible equipment.

DOBBS: Congressman Gene Taylor, senior House Armed Services Committee member, says it's outrageous that our troops don't have the armor they need. He's our guest.

Bureaucracy gone haywire. Congressman Earnest Istook says the government's list of possible terrorist targets is what he calls a joke. He joins us to set the record straight.

Millions of Americans think illegal aliens are a border state problem. Tonight, we'll show you where the illegal alien population is rising alarmingly fast, and it's a long way from our southern border.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: All of a sudden, we have -- have places that see immigrants moving in numbers that are off the charts.

DOBBS: Assault and battery. One of the worst NBA fights ever. I'll be talking with prosecutor Dave Gorcyca, who says everyone in this country can learn a lesson about civility from what happened on a basketball court.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT for Thursday, December 9. Here now for an hour of news, debate and opinion is Lou Dobbs.

DOBBS: Good evening.

One day after a soldier publicly complained about the shortage of armor for vehicles in Iraq, President Bush today said our troops deserve the very best equipment.

President Bush said he understands why that soldier asked Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld a tough question about armor plating for Humvees. Tonight, there are reports the soldier who asked that question was, in fact, coached by a journalist embedded with the troops. Senior Pentagon correspondent Jamie McIntyre reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): As questions go, this one was loaded.

SPEC. THOMAS WILSON, U.S. ARMY: Now, why do we soldiers have to dig through local landfills for pieces of scrap metal and compromise ballistic glass to up armor our vehicles?

MCINTYRE: And Rumsfeld's answer was, as he himself might say, inelegant.

DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: You know, you go to war with the Army you have, not the Army you might want.

MCINTYRE: That response was called cruel and callus by Senator Edward Kennedy, who claimed the exchange showed that frustration of the troops had finally boiled over and that they were, quote, "obviously fed up with Rumsfeld."

Now it turns out the question read by Specialist Thomas Wilson was planted by a newspaper reporter. According to his e-mail to the staff of the "Chattanooga Times Free Press" posted on the journalism Web site Poynteronline.

In the e-mail, military reporter Lee Pitts posed, "I just had one of my best days as a journalist." Pitt says that after learning only soldiers could ask questions, he brought two along as escorts.

"Beforehand, we worked on questions to ask Rumsfeld," he writes. And says "I found the sergeant in charge and made sure he knew to get my guys."

The Pentagon says it's not investigating the incident, and everyone from the president on down agrees it's a legitimate question.

BUSH: If I were a soldier overseas wanting to defend my country, I'd want to ask the secretary of defense the same question, and that is, "Are we getting the best we can get us?" And -- and they deserve the best.

MCINTYRE: But the complaint that troops don't have the best has put the Pentagon on the defensive. And in an effort to damage control, it quickly arranged a video link for a three-star general in Kuwait to brief reporters at the Pentagon.

LT. GEN. STEVEN WHITCOMB, COMMANDER, 3RD U.S. ARMY: What we're not lacking at this point for our kits, our steel plating to fabricate the level three kits or the personnel to apply those kits.

Our goal and what we're working towards is that no wheeled vehicle that leaves Kuwait going into Iraq is driven by a soldier that does not have some level of armor protection on it.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MCINTYRE: Now, the Pentagon has just issued a statement in which it said that these town hall meetings are for the soldiers to interact with the secretary, and that it, quote, "would be unfortunate to discover anyone might have interfered with that."

However, the newspaper involved, "The Chattanooga Times Free Press," we contacted the editor and managing editor and publisher of the paper. He said the question was legitimate and he's supportive of how his reporter managed to get it asked -- Lou.

DOBBS: Well, I sure hope, Jamie, that the Pentagon's far more worried about the troops who don't have adequate armor than whether or not a reporter embedded with the military was working with a couple soldiers to frame a question. They're not, are they?

MCINTYRE: Well -- well, this statement says as well that the Pentagon is -- takes the issue seriously and is addressing it aggressively. Again today, the Pentagon outlined the -- the steps that they're taking to -- to make sure that armor is put on those vehicles as fast as they can do it.

DOBBS: You know, Jamie, to hear the words "taking an issue seriously and addressing it aggressively" 19 months after the end of major combat operations in Iraq says something either about the public relations center or the Pentagon's command structure itself.

Jamie, thank you very much. Jamie McIntyre, senior Pentagon correspondent

Secretary Rumsfeld's response, that we go to the Army that we have, does not explain why nearly two years later our military leaders have tolerated a continuing shortage of armor-plated Humvees in both Iraq and Afghanistan.

Casey Wian has the report.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Last fall, only about 200 Humvees in Iraq were designed to protect troops against armor-piercing bullets or improvised explosive devices. In fact, the Humvee was originally built to provide built, maneuverable transportation, not to be a combat vehicle.

But that was before U.S. troops faced a new type of enemy, Iraqi insurgents using IEDs and guerrilla-style small arms fire.

WHITCOMB: Those attacks took many forms. Some very simplistic, using unexploded ordnance bombs, explosive packages that were put together using the bodies of dead animals up along rail guards on highways, you name it, and the enemy dreamed up a way to -- to use them. And they began having an impact on our soldiers, a deadly impact, as we all know.

Reporter: One way the Pentagon responded was to order more so- called up-armored Humvees surrounded by steel plating. One problem, according to congressional testimony by the Army's chief of staff, was that commanders kept revising the number they needed.

Within a few months, the Pentagon's up-armored Humvee request went from about 200 to 1,400 to 3,000, then 4,150, then 6,200, then finally, 8,100, where it stands today.

The civilian manufacturers of up-armored Humvees quickly boosted their production rates from 60 a month to 450 monthly to meet the demand. They say that's the most they could build without sacrificing quality.

Now that they've done it, they say they're prepared to speed production again. But are waiting for orders from the military, which is waiting for funding from Congress. Lawmakers already have approved more than $1 billion for vehicle armor upgrades.

GEN. MICHAEL HAGEE, U.S. MARINE CORPS COMMANDER: We should provide the very best armor that we can for these Marines and soldiers. And I believe that we are doing that. We should provide the very best technology that we can, and I believe that -- and I believe that we are doing that.

WIAN: Still, existing Humvees and other military vehicles are being retrofitted with armor protection kits, which offer less protection and can hurt performance.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WIAN: Altogether, the Pentagon has about 30,000 vehicles in Iraq and Afghanistan. About 8,000 of them don't have armor. And according to civilian contractors, the military still hasn't decided how many should -- Lou.

DOBBS: And even at full production, it would take another year to even begin to address that shortage.

Casey, thank you very much. Casey Wian.

Later here, we'll be talking about the shortage of armored Humvees with the senior member of the House Armed Services Committee, Congressman Gene Taylor, and our military analyst, General David grange.

In Iraq, an American soldier was today wounded by a roadside bomb in Baghdad. No word yet on his condition.

Elsewhere in Baghdad, insurgents fired mortars at an Iraqi National Guard base. Eight Iraqi National Guardsmen were wounded in that attack.

And meanwhile, the Japanese government has extended the mission of its troops in Iraq for another year. Japan has 600 non-combat troops in the relatively safe southern part of Iraq. Those troops are protected by Dutch soldiers. Military surgical teams in Iraq and Afghanistan are saving the lives of an unprecedented nine out of ten troops wounded in battle. According to "The New England Journal of Medicine," the dramatic improvement in the survival rate of our troops is because of the rapid advance of battlefield medical care.

Pentagon correspondent Barbara Starr reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We're just going to go ahead and stand up.

Still locked in?

Nice and slow. Nice and slow.

BARBARA STARR, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Army Specialist Kevin Panel (ph) lost both his legs in Iraq when his unit was hit by grenades. Now, he has the best technology available to America's young veterans, a $48,000 high-tech prosthetic limb driven by computer technology.

Today, U.S. military personnel have a better chance of surviving war than ever before. In Vietnam, 24 percent of the wounded died. Today in Iraq and Afghanistan, 10 percent of the wounded do not survive.

Now, forward surgical teams go right to the front lines to provide immediate care, keeping troops alive until they can be quickly moved to hospitals in Germany and the U.S.

Dr. John Casler recently retired from the Army. A surgical rotation on the front lines in Iraq left a lasting impression.

COL. JOHN D. CASLER, M.D., U.S. ARMY: I recall being called to the emergency room early one morning to take care of a wounded soldier who was injured in the face from an RPG. He had been wounded 15 minutes prior to seeing me in the emergency room and then within another 10 to 15 minutes had been stabilized.

STARR (on camera): This generation of veterans is surviving because of unprecedented armor protection and medical care, but they are still dealing with a generation of the aftermath of serious battle injuries.

Barbara Starr, CNN, the Pentagon.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

DOBBS: The United Nations is now facing one of the greatest crises in its history. There are multiple investigations into its corrupt oil-for-food program, an escalating scandal that is raising questions now about the integrity of the United Nations' top management. A rising number of U.S. lawmakers are demanding the resignation of United Nations Secretary General Kofi Annan. But today, in the midst of all of this, the man who is retiring from his post as U.S. ambassador to the United Nations, John Danforth, took a different view, in fact expressing confidence in Annan and saying, in fact, he should stay in office.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN DANFORTH, U.S. AMBASSADOR TO THE UNITED NATIONS: We are not suggesting the resignation or pushing for the resignation of the secretary general. We have worked with him very well in the past. We anticipate working with him very well in the future for the time to come.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

DOBBS: Danforth said there's undoubtedly a cloud over the United Nations, and the investigation into the oil-for-food scandal is, as he put it, critically important.

Still ahead here, a massive explosion in the size of the Hispanic population in this country. And a massive explosion in the population of immigrants. We'll tell you where illegal immigrants are rising in number at the fastest rate.

And a local television reporter tonight sentenced. His crime: not revealing a confidential source and protecting your right to know. That report is coming up next.

All of that and a great deal more still ahead here tonight.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: Tonight, the Department of Homeland Security is under fire for failing to complete a critical task in protecting the country against terrorism. Some members of Congress are saying that department has simply failed to build a database of potential terrorist targets in this country. Now those same lawmakers say the list could take years to complete.

Jeanne Meserve has the report.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JEANNE MESERVE, CNN HOMELAND SECURITY CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Apart from when presidents play, miniature golf courses are not generally regarded as critical infrastructure. But at least one is included on a national database of vital assets compiled by the Department of Homeland Security.

REP. ZOE LOFGREN (D), CALIFORNIA: You can't list every, you know, miniature golf site in America. What you need to do is the spine of the American economy and the lifeblood of America that is vulnerable to attack.

MESERVE: But some important infrastructure is omitted from the list, according to some who've seen it. The database of potential terrorist targets is intended to identify and prioritize points of vulnerability to improve security and response plans. Compiled with input from state and local officials, it is enormous with 80,000 entries.

MICHAEL O'HANLON, BROOKINGS INSTITUTION: There's no way you can use this sort of a list for any practical efforts at protection. It's just too much.

MESERVE: DHS says vulnerability and risk assessments have produced a smaller list that contains "100 percent of those sites we deem most critical and at highest risk," including nuclear plants and some chemical facilities. But DHS concedes a comprehensive list is not done, despite these words from Secretary Ridge last February.

TOM RIDGE, SECRETARY OF HOMELAND SECURITY: By December of this year, together with our partners, we will create a unified national critical infrastructure database.

MESERVE: Some in Congress are fed up. As one lawmaker put it, how can you plan when you don't know what to protect?

Jeanne Meserve, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

DOBBS: Congressman Ernest Istook is among those who have seen that classified terrorist target list. He says it is quite simply a joke. Congressman Istook, a member of the House Homeland Security Committee, will join us here still ahead tonight.

A shocking new study has found that the immigrant population in one region of this country is exploding at a staggering rate. What is most surprising about the report is where that explosion is taking place, and it's a long way from our southern border.

Peter Viles reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

PETER VILES, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): From Los Angeles, surprising news. The Hispanic population explosion is no longer centered in the West. In fact, the West is now lagging. California's Hispanic population grew 37 percent from 1990 to 2000.

But look at the growth of Hispanics in the Southeast: Arkansas, 196 percent; Georgia, 233 percent; and North Carolina, 274 percent.

AUDREY SINGER, BROOKINGS INSTITUTION: These are places that have been native born for a very long time, and, all of a sudden, we have places that see immigrants moving in in numbers that are off the charts.

VILES: When you drill down to the county level, the numbers are stunning. Gwinnett County, Georgia, the Hispanic population rose 657 percent in 10 years; Washington County, Arkansas, 747 percent growth; Forsyth County, North Carolina, 831 percent; and the fastest growing Hispanic population in the nation, Benton County, Arkansas, 891 percent growth.

What's driving all this? In a word, jobs.

HARRY PACHON, PRESIDENT, TOMAS RIVERA POLICY INSTITUTE: They move to these different states because of jobs, whether it be chicken processing in Atlanta or whether -- furniture manufacturing or poultry or pig farming in Nebraska. Jobs is what attracts Latino immigrants.

VILES: In Arkansas, it's poultry processing -- the name is Tyson Foods -- and, yes, Wal-Mart warehouses. In Gwinnett County, Georgia, north of Atlanta, 65 percent of construction workers are Hispanic. In Durham County, North Carolina, building those houses in the so-called research triangle, 67 percent of construction workers are Hispanic.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

VILES: This study concludes that the schools in the Southeast are totally unprepared for this wave of immigration. The biggest problem is a simple one. It's also crucial. The schools there simply do not have enough teachers who speak Spanish to effectively teach these kids how to speak English -- Lou.

DOBBS: Again, the issue is, corporations, employers benefiting by cheap labor that they are either exploiting or bringing into a community without looking to the costs that it imposes on the community, one of the reasons that it is just unconscionable that we have not dealt with immigration policy as a national issue.

Peter Viles.

Thank you very much.

Arizona's governor, Janet Napolitano, today signed that state's Proposition 200 into law. However, that law, which bars illegal aliens from receiving state and local benefits, has been blocked by a federal judge, at least temporarily.

Illegal aliens sued Arizona and Governor Napolitano over the constitutionality of that proposition. A hearing has been scheduled for December 22 to determine whether or not the law is unconstitutional. Supporters of the measure say it was carefully written to withstand any constitutional challenge of this sort.

Add another to the list of offhand remarks from Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger. This one made at the opening of the California governor's conference on women and children when several nurses protested the governor's health-care policies. The nurses were promptly escorted out of the Schwarzenegger event, and what Schwarzenegger did next as sparked outrage.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. ARNOLD SCHWARZENEGGER (D), CALIFORNIA: Pay no attention to those voices over there, by the way. Those are the special interests, if you know what I mean, OK? The special interests just don't like me in Sacramento because I'm always kicking their butt. That's why they don't like me.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

DOBBS: Schwarzenegger added, with a laugh, he loves them anyway. Well, the executive director of the 60,000-member nurses group was not apparently feeling the love. She called the comment insulting and inappropriate. Back in July, you may remember, Schwarzenegger caused a bit of an uproar when he called a group of Democrats girly men.

Still ahead here tonight, the American public's right to know is under attack. Now a federal court has sentenced a reporter for failing to reveal his confidential source. We'll tell you about crime and punishment and the First Amendment next.

And then, the Pentagon's's failure to adequately protect our troops in Iraq and Afghanistan. The controversy over armored Humvees and Humvees that are not armored. It's reached the highest level of our government, finally. General David Grange, Congressman Gene Taylor will be my guests.

All of that and a great deal more coming right up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: There are 10 journalists around the country now facing jail because they refused to reveal confidential sources. A federal court today sentenced Rhode Island reporter Jim Taricani to six months house arrest for his failure, his refusal to reveal the identity of a confidential source. Taricani is one of a dozen reporters who have been prosecuted for simply doing their jobs.

Bill Tucker has the story.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BILL TUCKER, CNN FINANCIAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Six months confined to home. It's the sentence the prosecution wanted. Jim Taricani has a transplanted heart and must take medicine daily.

The case of Taricani may seem far away and far removed to many Americans. But the promise of one reporter to protect the identity of a source is anything but a distant concept.

LUCY DALGLISH, REPORTERS COMMITTEE FOR THE FREEDOM OF PRESS: If journalists cannot promise their sources confidentiality, those sources are going to stop talking and -- it's very simple -- the public is going to get less information. It doesn't get much more basic than that.

TUCKER: Take the recent steroid scandal, for example. A leak of the grand jury testimony to a reporter confirmed what many in sports had suspected, that steroid use is rampant in baseball and that certain well-known players had used them.

The U.S. Attorney's office in San Francisco has ordered an investigation into that leak, and the reporter there can likely expect the same treatment as Taricani in Providence, Rhode Island.

And that's the point. Taricani is not alone, not even unique.

PAUL MCMASTERS, FIRST AMENDMENT CENTER: Well, you know, if this trend continues and we see a steady parade of journalists going to jail while the targets of these investigations or the so-called sources are never found or, if they are found, can't be convicted, I think there has to be a point when the American public says enough is enough.

TUCKER: Jim Taricani works for an NBC affiliate, WJAR, in Rhode Island. He's been a reporter for 30 years.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

TUCKER: On the day of his conviction on contempt charges back on November 18, he called the verdict "an assault on journalistic freedom." As Lou mentioned, 10 other journalists are currently awaiting sentencing for refusing to reveal their sources, including Pulitzer Prizewinning journalist Judith Miller of The New York Times and TIME magazine's own Matthew Cooper -- Lou.

DOBBS: Thank you very much, Bill.

Bill Tucker.

Coming up next here, I'll be joined by a congressman who voted against intelligence reform. That Congressman calls the Department of Homeland Security's list of terrorist targets the worst example of bureaucracy gone haywire that he has ever seen. Congressman Ernest Istook will be our guest.

And our troops fighting the war without adequate armor, armor that could save countless lives and eliminate countless injuries. Congressman Gene Taylor of the House Armed Services Committee says it's an outrage. He will join General David Grange here coming right up.

And assault and battery in a basketball arena. Michigan prosecutor Dave Gorcyca says he believes we will never see anything like this again, and that's a good thing. He'll be joining us.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ANNOUNCER: LOU DOBBS TONIGHT continues. Here now for more news, debate and opinion, Lou Dobbs.

DOBBS: Congressman Gene Taylor of the House Armed Services Committee and General David Grange will be here to focus on why our troops don't have the very best equipment possible in both Iraq and Afghanistan.

First, other stories tonight. Rescuers are searching for six crew members of a disabled Malaysian cargo ship off the coast of Alaska's Aleutian Islands tonight. That after a U.S. Coast Guard helicopter crashed into the stormy waters of the Bering Sea. Those Coast Guardsmen were trying to rescue the crew of the freighter. Officials say the crew of the helicopter is safe. The 738-foot cargo ship later broke in two in the turbulent Bering Strait. The ship has 500,000 gallons of fuel on board. Authorities of course are concerned about a possible fuel spill.

Five people are dead in Columbus, Ohio, after a bizarre shooting during a heavy metal concert. Police say a 25-year-old man stormed a nightclub stage last night and shot the band's guitarist and three others in the nightclub. All four were killed. Police then shot and killed the gunman. Police have no information on a motive for the shooting.

A truck driver killed in Nevada. Heavy winds causing serious damage. The driver hit on the head by the trailer of a semitruck blown into his path. Several other trucks were blown over as well. Winds there gusting to more than 100 miles an hour in the freak storm.

And the Marine Corps has charged Corporal Wassef Hassoun with desertion. Corporal Hassoun disappeared from his unit in Iraq last year. He later turned up in Lebanon. Corporal Hassoun said he was abducted by insurgents.

The shortage of armored humvees in Iraq and Afghanistan is nothing less than a scandal. Nearly two years after the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq, a quarter of all humvees in Iraq are still without armor. Joining me now are Congressman Gene Taylor, a member of the House Armed Services Committee, and our military analyst, General David Grange. Gentlemen, good to have you here.

GEN. DAVID GRANGE, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Thank you.

REP. GENE TAYLOR (D-MS), ARMED SERVICES COMMITTEE: Great to be there, sir.

DOBBS: Congressman Taylor, let me turn first to you on this. The fact that this young soldier had the courage to stand up and, frankly, we should give the Pentagon credit, that the military had the guts to put the senior defense leader in a town hall meeting in front of the troops to their credit. The answer, however, was not what any of us would have liked to have heard, was it?

TAYLOR: No. In fact, I wish the answer had been for Secretary Rumsfeld to turn to whatever general was accompanying him and say, fix this. That should have been the correct answer. It should have been the correct answer a year ago, when I raised the question, when Congressman Rob Simmons of Connecticut raised the question, when the chairman of our committee, Duncan Hunter, raised the question, and it still hasn't been fixed. We've told them repeatedly, send us the bill, fix the problem.

DOBBS: General Grange, you are amongst those who here, over the course of the past year, have said straightforwardly, give our men and women in Iraq and Afghanistan the best. Is there any possible reason for the senior leader of the United States military to say, we take what stands, and it will go on in perpetuity, rather than deal with a crisis like this?

GRANGE: The equipment should have been resourced to the military. Lou, this is a problem, actually decades ago -- we had this problem for Somalia. We had the same problem going into Kosovo, trying to get armed kits, scrounging throughout the system to provide those for the logistic units to move in. And especially in a counterinsurgency operation where there are no front lines, all vehicles are subject to attack. So this has been an age-old problem and a failure of leadership in the military and administration throughout decades.

DOBBS: Defense Secretary Rumsfeld is squarely in focus on this for that rather unfortunate aphorism that "we go to war with the army we have," not necessarily, parenthetically, the one that we want.

But the fact is, the generals in the Pentagon, the generals in Iraq and Afghanistan, to listen to that three-star today basically say that we're working the problem, does that reflect a spirit in the U.S. military's command that has established itself? I keep waiting to hear, "Can do. Let's get up and get them."

GRANGE: Lou, the generals in the military -- and it was the same when I served -- we were responsible to make things happen. When you put on those stars, you're the guy in the arena. You have to find it. And it's tough to do that. But it's your responsibility to resource the troops. Yes, it falls on the general officers.

DOBBS: Congressman Taylor, as a member of the Armed Services Committee, and some of our best representatives serve on that committee from both parties, Duncan Hunter, a terrific leader of that committee...

TAYLOR: I agree.

DOBBS: ... how in the world, can you guys in your oversight role -- I understand your complaint, but in your oversight role, for us to have men and women in harm's way without the best, and accept the idea from a production line manager that they can't do something in the course of 20 months when young men, in particular in uniform, are losing arms and legs and being killed?

TAYLOR: Lou, No. 1, I want to thank you for your broadcast last night. You were right on target. Just today, the people who make the armored kits said that they can increase production by 22 percent overnight, and they're waiting for the Pentagon to ask them to do it. That's without any additional expenditure.

This is inexcusable. And quite frankly, I think some of the people who have failed to get this done ought to be riding around in Iraq right now in unarmored humvees, and maybe they'd get the message. Maybe they'd realize the importance. A year ago right now, I met with some Mississippi National Guardsmen who had actually gone to a scrap heap and who had welded a couple of boxes around their humvees in order to protect themselves. I came home immediately and said, "this is unacceptable." Nothing's been done about this for over a year now. This is ridiculous.

DOBBS: General Grange, give us a sense, your sense of the attitude of the generals in the Pentagon. I am sure they are all the best in meaning of people who have served with distinction, their country in uniform, but the idea that there is a mind-set that would accept this level of inadequacy and protection, forced protection, is, I think, to most Americans, utterly astounding.

GRANGE: It is amazing. And the issue is, it has to really be driven by the top, because one general in this particular shop or in the field in a certain country cannot do it all himself or herself. It has to be driven at the top. It has to be in synchronization with not only the administration, the Pentagon, but Congress.

You know, the problem is, Lou, that all these years, the focus was on big-ticket items, big-weapons systems, not the foot soldier, not the boots, the flak vests, someone's truck being armored to some extent. The 30 years I served, that was not the priority.

So really, a lot of people bear this responsibility, to include Congress, but then it boils down to who answers the trooper? The general in charge of the unit. And that's a tough thing to be put on you, but you've got to figure out how to make it happen.

DOBBS: Congressman Taylor, you've got a number of Mississippians about to ship out.

TAYLOR: Almost 5, 000.

DOBBS: Five thousand to Iraq. What are your thoughts tonight? We're going to give you the last word.

TAYLOR: Lou, I'm just telling you, I don't want to go to a single funeral and have to look a mom or dad or a spouse in the eye, and knowing that this Congress has gone to Secretary Rumsfeld for over a year now, saying, "fix the problem. Send us the bill," and they have failed to do it. This is inexcusable, and it does start with the secretary.

Every general, every admiral, every private, they work for the secretary of defense. If he would have said, "fix the problem," it would have been fixed by now. It's time for him to do that, or it's time for him to let someone else do that.

DOBBS: And I think it's appropriate, proportional and fair to point out that Secretary Rumsfeld works for the commander in chief, for whom it is the ultimate responsibility.

Gentlemen, we thank you for being here to share your views, and we appreciate it, Congressman Gene Taylor, General David Grange, as always. TAYLOR: Thank you, sir.

GRANGE: Thank you.

DOBBS: Still ahead here, Congressman Ernest Istook says the government's list of potential terrorist targets in this country is what he calls, quote, "a joke." He's our guest next.

And then, American culture in decline? Reality television playing a part? We'll find out next in our special report. Please stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: Our special report tonight, "Culture in Decline." So- called reality television appears to sink to a new low seemingly with every broadcast. And yet as the quality of programming declines, the popularity of those shows continues to soar.

Lisa Sylvester has the report.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

LISA SYLVESTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The Fox show "Married by America" was typed more than $1 million by the FCC earlier this year for showing a racy bachelor party. As reality TV has sunk to new lows, the volume of criticism has cranked up.

BRENT BOZELL, PARENTS TELEVISION COUNCIL: When you see these reality shows interspersed with drama and comedy shows, you tend to blur it all into one thing. And people tend to forget, these are real people doing real things, and in many cases, with real consequences to their lives.

SYLVESTER: Shows like "The Swan" have been criticized for glorifying plastic surgery. "Fear Factor" for putting contestants in humiliating situations "and "Wife Swap" where wives leave their homes to go with other families. It raises the question, what does it say about our culture to shows that appeal to the lowest common denominator are so popular?

ADAM THIERER, CATO INSTITUTE: There's always been a chicken and egg thing which is that did broadcast TV drag us down into the moral swamp or did culture generally decline or whatever else? The question really is difficult to answer.

SYLVESTER: Mark Burnett, creator of "Survivor" and "The Apprentice" says there is good and bad reality TV. But the reality is, unscripted TV is here to stay.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Asking me when you're going to tire of reality is a silly question. It's like asking me, when are we going to get tired of drama or comedy?

SYLVESTER: Network broadcasters and free speech advocates say if someone doesn't like what they see, they can always change the channel. But parents groups say they shouldn't have to, since the broadcasters are using airwaves owned by the public.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SYLVESTER: Fox is appealing the FCC's ruling saying the broadcasting decency rule is unconstitutional because it does not apply to cable or satellite television -- Lou.

DOBBS: Lisa, thank you very much.

The basketbrawl at the Pistons/Pacers game, another clear example of at least part of our culture in decline. Five Indiana Pacers players and five Detroit fans facing charges related to one of the worst fights in the history of the NBA.

I asked Oakland County Prosecutor, David Gorcyca, earlier if in each case, including the fan that he says incited that violence, did he seek the strongest possible charge?

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DAVE GORCYCA, OAKLAND IO. PROSECUTOR: Yes, again, even though he struck Artest from behind, Ron Artest did not suffer any injuries. Although Mr. Green has kind of a twofold problem. He's currently on probation in this is circuit court for drunk driving, third offense. So that's one front he's going to have to contend with. Because by picking up these new offenses he has violated probation.

Now he's going to have to contend with two 93-day misdemeanors. And the judge is certainly going to take into consideration that he's on probation and has a prior criminal history.

DOBBS: As we are watching all of this unfold in your jurisdiction, a host of other crimes are taking place. In the national consciousness this has emerged to the top. Is it indicative of what is happening in your county, in your jurisdiction?

GORCYCA: No. I quite frankly think this is a complete aberration of what I would characterize as normal fan/player interaction. Very rare that we see any kind of confrontation, particularly assaultive confrontation between players and fans here or across the country. I believe that this is an isolated incident. I don't think we'll ever see anything anywhere near this magnitude due to the fact that this has garnered so much media attention that fans and fans across the country know that they could be subjected to criminal charges.

And if you look at the players, they've suffered suspensions, loss of salary, potential loss of endorsements, civil liability and criminal liability. I don't think we're going to see any players of any sport go up into seating area any time soon.

I'm actually bewildered the amount of media attention. This was even -- the fight, the brawl itself was aired on Al Jazeera, people have seen it in Paris, France. You know, I've handled Kevorkian here. This dwarves the Kevorkian scenario, and that had national and international exposure. And I've never seen or dealt with anything like it before.

It's -- the scrutiny that it has gotten not only in the sports world but in society, sports talk shows across the nation, it's mind- boggling.

DOBBS: In taking on this case and bringing these charges, you have been criticized for being too lenient. So have accused you of being too harsh. What is the most -- in your mind, what is the most outrageous criticism of these charges and of you as a prosecutor that you've received?

GORCYCA: Earlier today, and the show escapes me, but I was accused of being racist because what occurred is part of the hip-hop culture and since I'm going after African-American athletes that are part of that culture that these charges were racist, which I found blatantly offensive. And if that's what the hip-hop culture is all about then I have no qualms about charging -- and making the charging decisions that I did.

DOBBS: What do you see as the principal challenge to law and order, to civility, to the very basis of civilization, that is, our laws in this country?

GORCYCA: Well, I think people have to realize no matter what setting or scenario, and they're going to have to obey the laws. Just because you had a sporting event and you have a ticket to go watch a basketball game does not give you a license to commit an assault on a player. At the same time I think the players have to realize that entering into a fray with what would be one on 18,000 in the Palace scenario, comes with severe consequences as well.

Obviously, hopefully, as we stated before, that this is an aberration, we don't see this again and that -- you know, I think -- I forget the exact word that "Sports Illustrated" called it, the "sports brawl" or something like that or...

DOBBS: Basket-brawl.

GORCYCA: Basket-brawl. That the connotations that have come out of this are very negative. But hopefully there has been a societal impact and lessons to be learned here.

DOBBS: Thank you very much for being with us. Dave Gorcyca.

GORCYCA: Thanks, thank you for having me.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

DOBBS: A couple of parents in Florida are going to extremes to teach their children the value of responsibility and respect. Cat and Harlan Barnard have gone on strike as parents. The parents moved out of their house and are living in a tent in their front yard. The move is a last-ditch effort to convince their two teenaged children to do their share of household chores. And Cat Barnard says she's ready to stay outside as long as it takes to make the point.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CAT BARNARD, PARENT ON STRIKE: I'm quite stiff and sore in the morning, but I'm digging in for the long haul. If we have to be out here at Christmas, we have to be out here at Christmas.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

DOBBS: One neighbor suggested that perhaps the children are the ones who should be sleeping in that tent outside, and not their parents. Which seems like a reasonable consideration.

Still ahead here, your thoughts and comments made by Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld.

And Congressman Ernest Istook calls the nation's list of terrorist targets a joke. He's our guest next.

And why Colgate executives are enjoying special perks, while thousands of employees are losing their jobs. That's next. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: My next guest says the Department of Homeland Security simply has failed to complete a database of potential terrorist targets in this country. Congressman Ernest Istook has seen the classified list the department started working on a year ago. He says it's a joke. He's our guest tonight joining us from Oklahoma City. Congressman, thanks for being here. You've looked at this list. Why can't the Homeland Security Department come up with a list of potential targets?

REP. ERNEST ISTOOK (R), HOMELAND SECURITY CMTE.: Well, this particular list is trying to be everything to everyone. It's unfocused, it's undisciplined. And yes, that particular one is a joke. Now, I wouldn't want people to think that's the only list of targets they have. There's a much more focused list that they have under way as far as the president's infrastructure protection plan. But when they're trying to devise this supposedly all-encompassing list, they have really messed it up bad, and the bureaucrats are not serving the Department of Homeland Security or the American people well. And I told them so to their face when I looked at the list. I told them, this list is a joke. You've got things like water parks on it. And yet you don't have things like state capitols, for example. I can't go into a lot of the detail because they keep the list classified, but you get the concept.

DOBBS: Water parks?

ISTOOK: Yes. I mean, Lou, you and I both know you can take any place where people congregate, whether it be an amusement park, shopping mall, a sports stadium or whatever, and say, well, that's a potential target. OK. I understand it. If you want to have a list of every place where a lot of people can assemble, say that it's such. But don't pretend that some things are a priority and others are not. The Oklahoma homeland security director told me that they tried to get the Washington bureaucrats to listen to them, to say, we've got some things that need to be on the list, and you've got other things that don't belong on it. And frankly, those bureaucrats would not listen.

DOBBS: Well, I think after listening to you, they're probably going to become somewhat more attentive in the next few weeks and months. Congressman, you also voted against the intelligence reform legislation. Why?

ISTOOK: Well, there's two reasons. One, you do not improve an organization by moving around the boxes on an organization chart. And so a lot of people are thinking that reorganization of the top changes things in the middle. It doesn't. A lot of disciplined and focused management which the president is focused upon doing is the key to that. The other thing about that bill is, it represents a lost opportunity on border security. A lot of the stricter standards on illegal immigrants and to keep them from doing things like getting driver's licenses, which they can then use to board planes, those things were taken out of the bill in the House Senate conference committee.

DOBBS: We're out of time, but Congressman, are you confident there will be an initiative to move forward with those issues on border security in particular in the new Congress?

ISTOOK: There's certainly a lot of us in the House of Representatives that are pushing hard for that. Our leadership has assured us they will join that push. I want to say one more thing back on homeland security, Lou. Tom Ridge recognized the problems that I've described, and he's trying to crack down on those bureaucrats, but it's an unwieldy agency he's had to try to mold and to get disciplined.

DOBBS: Congressman Ernest Istook, we thank you very much for joining us.

ISTOOK: You bet. Thanks, Lou.

DOBBS: Taking a look at your thoughts. Maurice Norris of Secane, Pennsylvania wrote in to say, "Dear Lou, Secretary Rumsfeld's comment, you go to war with the army you have, is absolutely outrageous, not to mention insidious. How in the world can he expect the men and women fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan to have any confidence in their leadership when they have repeatedly failed to provide the troops with the materials necessary for their safety?"

Larry Aaron in Danville, Virginia. "Lou, it's obvious from the public grilling the troops gave Rumsfeld that the best army in the world is not being served by the world's best defense department. Rumsfeld's insensitivity is inexcusable."

Faith Gagne of South Yarmouth, Massachusetts. "I am astounded and angry at the carelessness and the neglect of our precious armed forces."

Send us your thoughts. E-mail us at loudobbs@CNN.com and include your name and hometown. The good news, the unemployment rate is 5.4 percent, the lowest in the past two months. But the number of Americans filing for jobless benefits this week unexpectedly rose. There are now almost 2.8 million Americans collecting unemployment benefits. That's the highest since September. Soon to be joining the ranks of the unemployed, thousands of Colgate-PalmOlive employees. That while the company's executives are enjoying some outrageous perks. Christine Romans is here with the story.

CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, Colgate-PalmOlive is cleaning house and executives are cleaning up. Two days ago, Colgate said it would axe 12 percent of its workforce in a restructuring. While more than 4,400 employees will lose their jobs, 800 top Colgate executives will be enjoying their perks. Top managers are allowed to spend up to $11,500 of company money each year on important perks to, quote, as the company tells employees, improve your effectiveness at Colgate and contribute positively to your personal and family life. Among those perks, dog-walking, concert tickets, gym memberships, family vacations, karate lessons the list goes on and on. At the same time, Colgate is closing one-third of its factories. While there's a cost-cutting measure under way to improve profitability, there's no indication the executives will share the burden and make some sacrifices. Colgate would not return our calls, Lou. Wanted to ask the company if any of those executives would be giving up any of those perks...

DOBBS: Sort of a share in the sacrifice program?

ROMANS: They didn't call us back.

DOBBS: Oh, my goodness, how distressing. Thank you very much, Christine.

When we continue here, we'll have a preview of what's ahead tomorrow. Please stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: Thank for being with us tonight. Please join us here tomorrow. We'll be taking a look at everything from space tourism to the bird flu with "Discover" magazine's 100 top science stories of the year. We'll be joined by editor-in-chief Steve Petranek as our guest. We'll include features from our special report as well. Tomorrow we'll be focusing on challenges as well to the institution of marriage in this country. For all of us here, good night from New York. "ANDERSON COOPER 360" is next.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com


Aired December 9, 2004 - 18:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LOU DOBBS, HOST (voice-over): Tonight, protecting our troops. President Bush insists the military is addressing concerns that our troops don't have enough armor in Iraq and Afghanistan.

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We expect our troops to have the best possible equipment.

DOBBS: Congressman Gene Taylor, senior House Armed Services Committee member, says it's outrageous that our troops don't have the armor they need. He's our guest.

Bureaucracy gone haywire. Congressman Earnest Istook says the government's list of possible terrorist targets is what he calls a joke. He joins us to set the record straight.

Millions of Americans think illegal aliens are a border state problem. Tonight, we'll show you where the illegal alien population is rising alarmingly fast, and it's a long way from our southern border.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: All of a sudden, we have -- have places that see immigrants moving in numbers that are off the charts.

DOBBS: Assault and battery. One of the worst NBA fights ever. I'll be talking with prosecutor Dave Gorcyca, who says everyone in this country can learn a lesson about civility from what happened on a basketball court.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT for Thursday, December 9. Here now for an hour of news, debate and opinion is Lou Dobbs.

DOBBS: Good evening.

One day after a soldier publicly complained about the shortage of armor for vehicles in Iraq, President Bush today said our troops deserve the very best equipment.

President Bush said he understands why that soldier asked Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld a tough question about armor plating for Humvees. Tonight, there are reports the soldier who asked that question was, in fact, coached by a journalist embedded with the troops. Senior Pentagon correspondent Jamie McIntyre reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): As questions go, this one was loaded.

SPEC. THOMAS WILSON, U.S. ARMY: Now, why do we soldiers have to dig through local landfills for pieces of scrap metal and compromise ballistic glass to up armor our vehicles?

MCINTYRE: And Rumsfeld's answer was, as he himself might say, inelegant.

DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: You know, you go to war with the Army you have, not the Army you might want.

MCINTYRE: That response was called cruel and callus by Senator Edward Kennedy, who claimed the exchange showed that frustration of the troops had finally boiled over and that they were, quote, "obviously fed up with Rumsfeld."

Now it turns out the question read by Specialist Thomas Wilson was planted by a newspaper reporter. According to his e-mail to the staff of the "Chattanooga Times Free Press" posted on the journalism Web site Poynteronline.

In the e-mail, military reporter Lee Pitts posed, "I just had one of my best days as a journalist." Pitt says that after learning only soldiers could ask questions, he brought two along as escorts.

"Beforehand, we worked on questions to ask Rumsfeld," he writes. And says "I found the sergeant in charge and made sure he knew to get my guys."

The Pentagon says it's not investigating the incident, and everyone from the president on down agrees it's a legitimate question.

BUSH: If I were a soldier overseas wanting to defend my country, I'd want to ask the secretary of defense the same question, and that is, "Are we getting the best we can get us?" And -- and they deserve the best.

MCINTYRE: But the complaint that troops don't have the best has put the Pentagon on the defensive. And in an effort to damage control, it quickly arranged a video link for a three-star general in Kuwait to brief reporters at the Pentagon.

LT. GEN. STEVEN WHITCOMB, COMMANDER, 3RD U.S. ARMY: What we're not lacking at this point for our kits, our steel plating to fabricate the level three kits or the personnel to apply those kits.

Our goal and what we're working towards is that no wheeled vehicle that leaves Kuwait going into Iraq is driven by a soldier that does not have some level of armor protection on it.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MCINTYRE: Now, the Pentagon has just issued a statement in which it said that these town hall meetings are for the soldiers to interact with the secretary, and that it, quote, "would be unfortunate to discover anyone might have interfered with that."

However, the newspaper involved, "The Chattanooga Times Free Press," we contacted the editor and managing editor and publisher of the paper. He said the question was legitimate and he's supportive of how his reporter managed to get it asked -- Lou.

DOBBS: Well, I sure hope, Jamie, that the Pentagon's far more worried about the troops who don't have adequate armor than whether or not a reporter embedded with the military was working with a couple soldiers to frame a question. They're not, are they?

MCINTYRE: Well -- well, this statement says as well that the Pentagon is -- takes the issue seriously and is addressing it aggressively. Again today, the Pentagon outlined the -- the steps that they're taking to -- to make sure that armor is put on those vehicles as fast as they can do it.

DOBBS: You know, Jamie, to hear the words "taking an issue seriously and addressing it aggressively" 19 months after the end of major combat operations in Iraq says something either about the public relations center or the Pentagon's command structure itself.

Jamie, thank you very much. Jamie McIntyre, senior Pentagon correspondent

Secretary Rumsfeld's response, that we go to the Army that we have, does not explain why nearly two years later our military leaders have tolerated a continuing shortage of armor-plated Humvees in both Iraq and Afghanistan.

Casey Wian has the report.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Last fall, only about 200 Humvees in Iraq were designed to protect troops against armor-piercing bullets or improvised explosive devices. In fact, the Humvee was originally built to provide built, maneuverable transportation, not to be a combat vehicle.

But that was before U.S. troops faced a new type of enemy, Iraqi insurgents using IEDs and guerrilla-style small arms fire.

WHITCOMB: Those attacks took many forms. Some very simplistic, using unexploded ordnance bombs, explosive packages that were put together using the bodies of dead animals up along rail guards on highways, you name it, and the enemy dreamed up a way to -- to use them. And they began having an impact on our soldiers, a deadly impact, as we all know.

Reporter: One way the Pentagon responded was to order more so- called up-armored Humvees surrounded by steel plating. One problem, according to congressional testimony by the Army's chief of staff, was that commanders kept revising the number they needed.

Within a few months, the Pentagon's up-armored Humvee request went from about 200 to 1,400 to 3,000, then 4,150, then 6,200, then finally, 8,100, where it stands today.

The civilian manufacturers of up-armored Humvees quickly boosted their production rates from 60 a month to 450 monthly to meet the demand. They say that's the most they could build without sacrificing quality.

Now that they've done it, they say they're prepared to speed production again. But are waiting for orders from the military, which is waiting for funding from Congress. Lawmakers already have approved more than $1 billion for vehicle armor upgrades.

GEN. MICHAEL HAGEE, U.S. MARINE CORPS COMMANDER: We should provide the very best armor that we can for these Marines and soldiers. And I believe that we are doing that. We should provide the very best technology that we can, and I believe that -- and I believe that we are doing that.

WIAN: Still, existing Humvees and other military vehicles are being retrofitted with armor protection kits, which offer less protection and can hurt performance.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WIAN: Altogether, the Pentagon has about 30,000 vehicles in Iraq and Afghanistan. About 8,000 of them don't have armor. And according to civilian contractors, the military still hasn't decided how many should -- Lou.

DOBBS: And even at full production, it would take another year to even begin to address that shortage.

Casey, thank you very much. Casey Wian.

Later here, we'll be talking about the shortage of armored Humvees with the senior member of the House Armed Services Committee, Congressman Gene Taylor, and our military analyst, General David grange.

In Iraq, an American soldier was today wounded by a roadside bomb in Baghdad. No word yet on his condition.

Elsewhere in Baghdad, insurgents fired mortars at an Iraqi National Guard base. Eight Iraqi National Guardsmen were wounded in that attack.

And meanwhile, the Japanese government has extended the mission of its troops in Iraq for another year. Japan has 600 non-combat troops in the relatively safe southern part of Iraq. Those troops are protected by Dutch soldiers. Military surgical teams in Iraq and Afghanistan are saving the lives of an unprecedented nine out of ten troops wounded in battle. According to "The New England Journal of Medicine," the dramatic improvement in the survival rate of our troops is because of the rapid advance of battlefield medical care.

Pentagon correspondent Barbara Starr reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We're just going to go ahead and stand up.

Still locked in?

Nice and slow. Nice and slow.

BARBARA STARR, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Army Specialist Kevin Panel (ph) lost both his legs in Iraq when his unit was hit by grenades. Now, he has the best technology available to America's young veterans, a $48,000 high-tech prosthetic limb driven by computer technology.

Today, U.S. military personnel have a better chance of surviving war than ever before. In Vietnam, 24 percent of the wounded died. Today in Iraq and Afghanistan, 10 percent of the wounded do not survive.

Now, forward surgical teams go right to the front lines to provide immediate care, keeping troops alive until they can be quickly moved to hospitals in Germany and the U.S.

Dr. John Casler recently retired from the Army. A surgical rotation on the front lines in Iraq left a lasting impression.

COL. JOHN D. CASLER, M.D., U.S. ARMY: I recall being called to the emergency room early one morning to take care of a wounded soldier who was injured in the face from an RPG. He had been wounded 15 minutes prior to seeing me in the emergency room and then within another 10 to 15 minutes had been stabilized.

STARR (on camera): This generation of veterans is surviving because of unprecedented armor protection and medical care, but they are still dealing with a generation of the aftermath of serious battle injuries.

Barbara Starr, CNN, the Pentagon.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

DOBBS: The United Nations is now facing one of the greatest crises in its history. There are multiple investigations into its corrupt oil-for-food program, an escalating scandal that is raising questions now about the integrity of the United Nations' top management. A rising number of U.S. lawmakers are demanding the resignation of United Nations Secretary General Kofi Annan. But today, in the midst of all of this, the man who is retiring from his post as U.S. ambassador to the United Nations, John Danforth, took a different view, in fact expressing confidence in Annan and saying, in fact, he should stay in office.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN DANFORTH, U.S. AMBASSADOR TO THE UNITED NATIONS: We are not suggesting the resignation or pushing for the resignation of the secretary general. We have worked with him very well in the past. We anticipate working with him very well in the future for the time to come.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

DOBBS: Danforth said there's undoubtedly a cloud over the United Nations, and the investigation into the oil-for-food scandal is, as he put it, critically important.

Still ahead here, a massive explosion in the size of the Hispanic population in this country. And a massive explosion in the population of immigrants. We'll tell you where illegal immigrants are rising in number at the fastest rate.

And a local television reporter tonight sentenced. His crime: not revealing a confidential source and protecting your right to know. That report is coming up next.

All of that and a great deal more still ahead here tonight.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: Tonight, the Department of Homeland Security is under fire for failing to complete a critical task in protecting the country against terrorism. Some members of Congress are saying that department has simply failed to build a database of potential terrorist targets in this country. Now those same lawmakers say the list could take years to complete.

Jeanne Meserve has the report.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JEANNE MESERVE, CNN HOMELAND SECURITY CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Apart from when presidents play, miniature golf courses are not generally regarded as critical infrastructure. But at least one is included on a national database of vital assets compiled by the Department of Homeland Security.

REP. ZOE LOFGREN (D), CALIFORNIA: You can't list every, you know, miniature golf site in America. What you need to do is the spine of the American economy and the lifeblood of America that is vulnerable to attack.

MESERVE: But some important infrastructure is omitted from the list, according to some who've seen it. The database of potential terrorist targets is intended to identify and prioritize points of vulnerability to improve security and response plans. Compiled with input from state and local officials, it is enormous with 80,000 entries.

MICHAEL O'HANLON, BROOKINGS INSTITUTION: There's no way you can use this sort of a list for any practical efforts at protection. It's just too much.

MESERVE: DHS says vulnerability and risk assessments have produced a smaller list that contains "100 percent of those sites we deem most critical and at highest risk," including nuclear plants and some chemical facilities. But DHS concedes a comprehensive list is not done, despite these words from Secretary Ridge last February.

TOM RIDGE, SECRETARY OF HOMELAND SECURITY: By December of this year, together with our partners, we will create a unified national critical infrastructure database.

MESERVE: Some in Congress are fed up. As one lawmaker put it, how can you plan when you don't know what to protect?

Jeanne Meserve, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

DOBBS: Congressman Ernest Istook is among those who have seen that classified terrorist target list. He says it is quite simply a joke. Congressman Istook, a member of the House Homeland Security Committee, will join us here still ahead tonight.

A shocking new study has found that the immigrant population in one region of this country is exploding at a staggering rate. What is most surprising about the report is where that explosion is taking place, and it's a long way from our southern border.

Peter Viles reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

PETER VILES, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): From Los Angeles, surprising news. The Hispanic population explosion is no longer centered in the West. In fact, the West is now lagging. California's Hispanic population grew 37 percent from 1990 to 2000.

But look at the growth of Hispanics in the Southeast: Arkansas, 196 percent; Georgia, 233 percent; and North Carolina, 274 percent.

AUDREY SINGER, BROOKINGS INSTITUTION: These are places that have been native born for a very long time, and, all of a sudden, we have places that see immigrants moving in in numbers that are off the charts.

VILES: When you drill down to the county level, the numbers are stunning. Gwinnett County, Georgia, the Hispanic population rose 657 percent in 10 years; Washington County, Arkansas, 747 percent growth; Forsyth County, North Carolina, 831 percent; and the fastest growing Hispanic population in the nation, Benton County, Arkansas, 891 percent growth.

What's driving all this? In a word, jobs.

HARRY PACHON, PRESIDENT, TOMAS RIVERA POLICY INSTITUTE: They move to these different states because of jobs, whether it be chicken processing in Atlanta or whether -- furniture manufacturing or poultry or pig farming in Nebraska. Jobs is what attracts Latino immigrants.

VILES: In Arkansas, it's poultry processing -- the name is Tyson Foods -- and, yes, Wal-Mart warehouses. In Gwinnett County, Georgia, north of Atlanta, 65 percent of construction workers are Hispanic. In Durham County, North Carolina, building those houses in the so-called research triangle, 67 percent of construction workers are Hispanic.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

VILES: This study concludes that the schools in the Southeast are totally unprepared for this wave of immigration. The biggest problem is a simple one. It's also crucial. The schools there simply do not have enough teachers who speak Spanish to effectively teach these kids how to speak English -- Lou.

DOBBS: Again, the issue is, corporations, employers benefiting by cheap labor that they are either exploiting or bringing into a community without looking to the costs that it imposes on the community, one of the reasons that it is just unconscionable that we have not dealt with immigration policy as a national issue.

Peter Viles.

Thank you very much.

Arizona's governor, Janet Napolitano, today signed that state's Proposition 200 into law. However, that law, which bars illegal aliens from receiving state and local benefits, has been blocked by a federal judge, at least temporarily.

Illegal aliens sued Arizona and Governor Napolitano over the constitutionality of that proposition. A hearing has been scheduled for December 22 to determine whether or not the law is unconstitutional. Supporters of the measure say it was carefully written to withstand any constitutional challenge of this sort.

Add another to the list of offhand remarks from Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger. This one made at the opening of the California governor's conference on women and children when several nurses protested the governor's health-care policies. The nurses were promptly escorted out of the Schwarzenegger event, and what Schwarzenegger did next as sparked outrage.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. ARNOLD SCHWARZENEGGER (D), CALIFORNIA: Pay no attention to those voices over there, by the way. Those are the special interests, if you know what I mean, OK? The special interests just don't like me in Sacramento because I'm always kicking their butt. That's why they don't like me.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

DOBBS: Schwarzenegger added, with a laugh, he loves them anyway. Well, the executive director of the 60,000-member nurses group was not apparently feeling the love. She called the comment insulting and inappropriate. Back in July, you may remember, Schwarzenegger caused a bit of an uproar when he called a group of Democrats girly men.

Still ahead here tonight, the American public's right to know is under attack. Now a federal court has sentenced a reporter for failing to reveal his confidential source. We'll tell you about crime and punishment and the First Amendment next.

And then, the Pentagon's's failure to adequately protect our troops in Iraq and Afghanistan. The controversy over armored Humvees and Humvees that are not armored. It's reached the highest level of our government, finally. General David Grange, Congressman Gene Taylor will be my guests.

All of that and a great deal more coming right up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: There are 10 journalists around the country now facing jail because they refused to reveal confidential sources. A federal court today sentenced Rhode Island reporter Jim Taricani to six months house arrest for his failure, his refusal to reveal the identity of a confidential source. Taricani is one of a dozen reporters who have been prosecuted for simply doing their jobs.

Bill Tucker has the story.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BILL TUCKER, CNN FINANCIAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Six months confined to home. It's the sentence the prosecution wanted. Jim Taricani has a transplanted heart and must take medicine daily.

The case of Taricani may seem far away and far removed to many Americans. But the promise of one reporter to protect the identity of a source is anything but a distant concept.

LUCY DALGLISH, REPORTERS COMMITTEE FOR THE FREEDOM OF PRESS: If journalists cannot promise their sources confidentiality, those sources are going to stop talking and -- it's very simple -- the public is going to get less information. It doesn't get much more basic than that.

TUCKER: Take the recent steroid scandal, for example. A leak of the grand jury testimony to a reporter confirmed what many in sports had suspected, that steroid use is rampant in baseball and that certain well-known players had used them.

The U.S. Attorney's office in San Francisco has ordered an investigation into that leak, and the reporter there can likely expect the same treatment as Taricani in Providence, Rhode Island.

And that's the point. Taricani is not alone, not even unique.

PAUL MCMASTERS, FIRST AMENDMENT CENTER: Well, you know, if this trend continues and we see a steady parade of journalists going to jail while the targets of these investigations or the so-called sources are never found or, if they are found, can't be convicted, I think there has to be a point when the American public says enough is enough.

TUCKER: Jim Taricani works for an NBC affiliate, WJAR, in Rhode Island. He's been a reporter for 30 years.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

TUCKER: On the day of his conviction on contempt charges back on November 18, he called the verdict "an assault on journalistic freedom." As Lou mentioned, 10 other journalists are currently awaiting sentencing for refusing to reveal their sources, including Pulitzer Prizewinning journalist Judith Miller of The New York Times and TIME magazine's own Matthew Cooper -- Lou.

DOBBS: Thank you very much, Bill.

Bill Tucker.

Coming up next here, I'll be joined by a congressman who voted against intelligence reform. That Congressman calls the Department of Homeland Security's list of terrorist targets the worst example of bureaucracy gone haywire that he has ever seen. Congressman Ernest Istook will be our guest.

And our troops fighting the war without adequate armor, armor that could save countless lives and eliminate countless injuries. Congressman Gene Taylor of the House Armed Services Committee says it's an outrage. He will join General David Grange here coming right up.

And assault and battery in a basketball arena. Michigan prosecutor Dave Gorcyca says he believes we will never see anything like this again, and that's a good thing. He'll be joining us.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ANNOUNCER: LOU DOBBS TONIGHT continues. Here now for more news, debate and opinion, Lou Dobbs.

DOBBS: Congressman Gene Taylor of the House Armed Services Committee and General David Grange will be here to focus on why our troops don't have the very best equipment possible in both Iraq and Afghanistan.

First, other stories tonight. Rescuers are searching for six crew members of a disabled Malaysian cargo ship off the coast of Alaska's Aleutian Islands tonight. That after a U.S. Coast Guard helicopter crashed into the stormy waters of the Bering Sea. Those Coast Guardsmen were trying to rescue the crew of the freighter. Officials say the crew of the helicopter is safe. The 738-foot cargo ship later broke in two in the turbulent Bering Strait. The ship has 500,000 gallons of fuel on board. Authorities of course are concerned about a possible fuel spill.

Five people are dead in Columbus, Ohio, after a bizarre shooting during a heavy metal concert. Police say a 25-year-old man stormed a nightclub stage last night and shot the band's guitarist and three others in the nightclub. All four were killed. Police then shot and killed the gunman. Police have no information on a motive for the shooting.

A truck driver killed in Nevada. Heavy winds causing serious damage. The driver hit on the head by the trailer of a semitruck blown into his path. Several other trucks were blown over as well. Winds there gusting to more than 100 miles an hour in the freak storm.

And the Marine Corps has charged Corporal Wassef Hassoun with desertion. Corporal Hassoun disappeared from his unit in Iraq last year. He later turned up in Lebanon. Corporal Hassoun said he was abducted by insurgents.

The shortage of armored humvees in Iraq and Afghanistan is nothing less than a scandal. Nearly two years after the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq, a quarter of all humvees in Iraq are still without armor. Joining me now are Congressman Gene Taylor, a member of the House Armed Services Committee, and our military analyst, General David Grange. Gentlemen, good to have you here.

GEN. DAVID GRANGE, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Thank you.

REP. GENE TAYLOR (D-MS), ARMED SERVICES COMMITTEE: Great to be there, sir.

DOBBS: Congressman Taylor, let me turn first to you on this. The fact that this young soldier had the courage to stand up and, frankly, we should give the Pentagon credit, that the military had the guts to put the senior defense leader in a town hall meeting in front of the troops to their credit. The answer, however, was not what any of us would have liked to have heard, was it?

TAYLOR: No. In fact, I wish the answer had been for Secretary Rumsfeld to turn to whatever general was accompanying him and say, fix this. That should have been the correct answer. It should have been the correct answer a year ago, when I raised the question, when Congressman Rob Simmons of Connecticut raised the question, when the chairman of our committee, Duncan Hunter, raised the question, and it still hasn't been fixed. We've told them repeatedly, send us the bill, fix the problem.

DOBBS: General Grange, you are amongst those who here, over the course of the past year, have said straightforwardly, give our men and women in Iraq and Afghanistan the best. Is there any possible reason for the senior leader of the United States military to say, we take what stands, and it will go on in perpetuity, rather than deal with a crisis like this?

GRANGE: The equipment should have been resourced to the military. Lou, this is a problem, actually decades ago -- we had this problem for Somalia. We had the same problem going into Kosovo, trying to get armed kits, scrounging throughout the system to provide those for the logistic units to move in. And especially in a counterinsurgency operation where there are no front lines, all vehicles are subject to attack. So this has been an age-old problem and a failure of leadership in the military and administration throughout decades.

DOBBS: Defense Secretary Rumsfeld is squarely in focus on this for that rather unfortunate aphorism that "we go to war with the army we have," not necessarily, parenthetically, the one that we want.

But the fact is, the generals in the Pentagon, the generals in Iraq and Afghanistan, to listen to that three-star today basically say that we're working the problem, does that reflect a spirit in the U.S. military's command that has established itself? I keep waiting to hear, "Can do. Let's get up and get them."

GRANGE: Lou, the generals in the military -- and it was the same when I served -- we were responsible to make things happen. When you put on those stars, you're the guy in the arena. You have to find it. And it's tough to do that. But it's your responsibility to resource the troops. Yes, it falls on the general officers.

DOBBS: Congressman Taylor, as a member of the Armed Services Committee, and some of our best representatives serve on that committee from both parties, Duncan Hunter, a terrific leader of that committee...

TAYLOR: I agree.

DOBBS: ... how in the world, can you guys in your oversight role -- I understand your complaint, but in your oversight role, for us to have men and women in harm's way without the best, and accept the idea from a production line manager that they can't do something in the course of 20 months when young men, in particular in uniform, are losing arms and legs and being killed?

TAYLOR: Lou, No. 1, I want to thank you for your broadcast last night. You were right on target. Just today, the people who make the armored kits said that they can increase production by 22 percent overnight, and they're waiting for the Pentagon to ask them to do it. That's without any additional expenditure.

This is inexcusable. And quite frankly, I think some of the people who have failed to get this done ought to be riding around in Iraq right now in unarmored humvees, and maybe they'd get the message. Maybe they'd realize the importance. A year ago right now, I met with some Mississippi National Guardsmen who had actually gone to a scrap heap and who had welded a couple of boxes around their humvees in order to protect themselves. I came home immediately and said, "this is unacceptable." Nothing's been done about this for over a year now. This is ridiculous.

DOBBS: General Grange, give us a sense, your sense of the attitude of the generals in the Pentagon. I am sure they are all the best in meaning of people who have served with distinction, their country in uniform, but the idea that there is a mind-set that would accept this level of inadequacy and protection, forced protection, is, I think, to most Americans, utterly astounding.

GRANGE: It is amazing. And the issue is, it has to really be driven by the top, because one general in this particular shop or in the field in a certain country cannot do it all himself or herself. It has to be driven at the top. It has to be in synchronization with not only the administration, the Pentagon, but Congress.

You know, the problem is, Lou, that all these years, the focus was on big-ticket items, big-weapons systems, not the foot soldier, not the boots, the flak vests, someone's truck being armored to some extent. The 30 years I served, that was not the priority.

So really, a lot of people bear this responsibility, to include Congress, but then it boils down to who answers the trooper? The general in charge of the unit. And that's a tough thing to be put on you, but you've got to figure out how to make it happen.

DOBBS: Congressman Taylor, you've got a number of Mississippians about to ship out.

TAYLOR: Almost 5, 000.

DOBBS: Five thousand to Iraq. What are your thoughts tonight? We're going to give you the last word.

TAYLOR: Lou, I'm just telling you, I don't want to go to a single funeral and have to look a mom or dad or a spouse in the eye, and knowing that this Congress has gone to Secretary Rumsfeld for over a year now, saying, "fix the problem. Send us the bill," and they have failed to do it. This is inexcusable, and it does start with the secretary.

Every general, every admiral, every private, they work for the secretary of defense. If he would have said, "fix the problem," it would have been fixed by now. It's time for him to do that, or it's time for him to let someone else do that.

DOBBS: And I think it's appropriate, proportional and fair to point out that Secretary Rumsfeld works for the commander in chief, for whom it is the ultimate responsibility.

Gentlemen, we thank you for being here to share your views, and we appreciate it, Congressman Gene Taylor, General David Grange, as always. TAYLOR: Thank you, sir.

GRANGE: Thank you.

DOBBS: Still ahead here, Congressman Ernest Istook says the government's list of potential terrorist targets in this country is what he calls, quote, "a joke." He's our guest next.

And then, American culture in decline? Reality television playing a part? We'll find out next in our special report. Please stay with us.

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DOBBS: Our special report tonight, "Culture in Decline." So- called reality television appears to sink to a new low seemingly with every broadcast. And yet as the quality of programming declines, the popularity of those shows continues to soar.

Lisa Sylvester has the report.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

LISA SYLVESTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The Fox show "Married by America" was typed more than $1 million by the FCC earlier this year for showing a racy bachelor party. As reality TV has sunk to new lows, the volume of criticism has cranked up.

BRENT BOZELL, PARENTS TELEVISION COUNCIL: When you see these reality shows interspersed with drama and comedy shows, you tend to blur it all into one thing. And people tend to forget, these are real people doing real things, and in many cases, with real consequences to their lives.

SYLVESTER: Shows like "The Swan" have been criticized for glorifying plastic surgery. "Fear Factor" for putting contestants in humiliating situations "and "Wife Swap" where wives leave their homes to go with other families. It raises the question, what does it say about our culture to shows that appeal to the lowest common denominator are so popular?

ADAM THIERER, CATO INSTITUTE: There's always been a chicken and egg thing which is that did broadcast TV drag us down into the moral swamp or did culture generally decline or whatever else? The question really is difficult to answer.

SYLVESTER: Mark Burnett, creator of "Survivor" and "The Apprentice" says there is good and bad reality TV. But the reality is, unscripted TV is here to stay.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Asking me when you're going to tire of reality is a silly question. It's like asking me, when are we going to get tired of drama or comedy?

SYLVESTER: Network broadcasters and free speech advocates say if someone doesn't like what they see, they can always change the channel. But parents groups say they shouldn't have to, since the broadcasters are using airwaves owned by the public.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SYLVESTER: Fox is appealing the FCC's ruling saying the broadcasting decency rule is unconstitutional because it does not apply to cable or satellite television -- Lou.

DOBBS: Lisa, thank you very much.

The basketbrawl at the Pistons/Pacers game, another clear example of at least part of our culture in decline. Five Indiana Pacers players and five Detroit fans facing charges related to one of the worst fights in the history of the NBA.

I asked Oakland County Prosecutor, David Gorcyca, earlier if in each case, including the fan that he says incited that violence, did he seek the strongest possible charge?

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DAVE GORCYCA, OAKLAND IO. PROSECUTOR: Yes, again, even though he struck Artest from behind, Ron Artest did not suffer any injuries. Although Mr. Green has kind of a twofold problem. He's currently on probation in this is circuit court for drunk driving, third offense. So that's one front he's going to have to contend with. Because by picking up these new offenses he has violated probation.

Now he's going to have to contend with two 93-day misdemeanors. And the judge is certainly going to take into consideration that he's on probation and has a prior criminal history.

DOBBS: As we are watching all of this unfold in your jurisdiction, a host of other crimes are taking place. In the national consciousness this has emerged to the top. Is it indicative of what is happening in your county, in your jurisdiction?

GORCYCA: No. I quite frankly think this is a complete aberration of what I would characterize as normal fan/player interaction. Very rare that we see any kind of confrontation, particularly assaultive confrontation between players and fans here or across the country. I believe that this is an isolated incident. I don't think we'll ever see anything anywhere near this magnitude due to the fact that this has garnered so much media attention that fans and fans across the country know that they could be subjected to criminal charges.

And if you look at the players, they've suffered suspensions, loss of salary, potential loss of endorsements, civil liability and criminal liability. I don't think we're going to see any players of any sport go up into seating area any time soon.

I'm actually bewildered the amount of media attention. This was even -- the fight, the brawl itself was aired on Al Jazeera, people have seen it in Paris, France. You know, I've handled Kevorkian here. This dwarves the Kevorkian scenario, and that had national and international exposure. And I've never seen or dealt with anything like it before.

It's -- the scrutiny that it has gotten not only in the sports world but in society, sports talk shows across the nation, it's mind- boggling.

DOBBS: In taking on this case and bringing these charges, you have been criticized for being too lenient. So have accused you of being too harsh. What is the most -- in your mind, what is the most outrageous criticism of these charges and of you as a prosecutor that you've received?

GORCYCA: Earlier today, and the show escapes me, but I was accused of being racist because what occurred is part of the hip-hop culture and since I'm going after African-American athletes that are part of that culture that these charges were racist, which I found blatantly offensive. And if that's what the hip-hop culture is all about then I have no qualms about charging -- and making the charging decisions that I did.

DOBBS: What do you see as the principal challenge to law and order, to civility, to the very basis of civilization, that is, our laws in this country?

GORCYCA: Well, I think people have to realize no matter what setting or scenario, and they're going to have to obey the laws. Just because you had a sporting event and you have a ticket to go watch a basketball game does not give you a license to commit an assault on a player. At the same time I think the players have to realize that entering into a fray with what would be one on 18,000 in the Palace scenario, comes with severe consequences as well.

Obviously, hopefully, as we stated before, that this is an aberration, we don't see this again and that -- you know, I think -- I forget the exact word that "Sports Illustrated" called it, the "sports brawl" or something like that or...

DOBBS: Basket-brawl.

GORCYCA: Basket-brawl. That the connotations that have come out of this are very negative. But hopefully there has been a societal impact and lessons to be learned here.

DOBBS: Thank you very much for being with us. Dave Gorcyca.

GORCYCA: Thanks, thank you for having me.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

DOBBS: A couple of parents in Florida are going to extremes to teach their children the value of responsibility and respect. Cat and Harlan Barnard have gone on strike as parents. The parents moved out of their house and are living in a tent in their front yard. The move is a last-ditch effort to convince their two teenaged children to do their share of household chores. And Cat Barnard says she's ready to stay outside as long as it takes to make the point.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CAT BARNARD, PARENT ON STRIKE: I'm quite stiff and sore in the morning, but I'm digging in for the long haul. If we have to be out here at Christmas, we have to be out here at Christmas.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

DOBBS: One neighbor suggested that perhaps the children are the ones who should be sleeping in that tent outside, and not their parents. Which seems like a reasonable consideration.

Still ahead here, your thoughts and comments made by Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld.

And Congressman Ernest Istook calls the nation's list of terrorist targets a joke. He's our guest next.

And why Colgate executives are enjoying special perks, while thousands of employees are losing their jobs. That's next. Stay with us.

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DOBBS: My next guest says the Department of Homeland Security simply has failed to complete a database of potential terrorist targets in this country. Congressman Ernest Istook has seen the classified list the department started working on a year ago. He says it's a joke. He's our guest tonight joining us from Oklahoma City. Congressman, thanks for being here. You've looked at this list. Why can't the Homeland Security Department come up with a list of potential targets?

REP. ERNEST ISTOOK (R), HOMELAND SECURITY CMTE.: Well, this particular list is trying to be everything to everyone. It's unfocused, it's undisciplined. And yes, that particular one is a joke. Now, I wouldn't want people to think that's the only list of targets they have. There's a much more focused list that they have under way as far as the president's infrastructure protection plan. But when they're trying to devise this supposedly all-encompassing list, they have really messed it up bad, and the bureaucrats are not serving the Department of Homeland Security or the American people well. And I told them so to their face when I looked at the list. I told them, this list is a joke. You've got things like water parks on it. And yet you don't have things like state capitols, for example. I can't go into a lot of the detail because they keep the list classified, but you get the concept.

DOBBS: Water parks?

ISTOOK: Yes. I mean, Lou, you and I both know you can take any place where people congregate, whether it be an amusement park, shopping mall, a sports stadium or whatever, and say, well, that's a potential target. OK. I understand it. If you want to have a list of every place where a lot of people can assemble, say that it's such. But don't pretend that some things are a priority and others are not. The Oklahoma homeland security director told me that they tried to get the Washington bureaucrats to listen to them, to say, we've got some things that need to be on the list, and you've got other things that don't belong on it. And frankly, those bureaucrats would not listen.

DOBBS: Well, I think after listening to you, they're probably going to become somewhat more attentive in the next few weeks and months. Congressman, you also voted against the intelligence reform legislation. Why?

ISTOOK: Well, there's two reasons. One, you do not improve an organization by moving around the boxes on an organization chart. And so a lot of people are thinking that reorganization of the top changes things in the middle. It doesn't. A lot of disciplined and focused management which the president is focused upon doing is the key to that. The other thing about that bill is, it represents a lost opportunity on border security. A lot of the stricter standards on illegal immigrants and to keep them from doing things like getting driver's licenses, which they can then use to board planes, those things were taken out of the bill in the House Senate conference committee.

DOBBS: We're out of time, but Congressman, are you confident there will be an initiative to move forward with those issues on border security in particular in the new Congress?

ISTOOK: There's certainly a lot of us in the House of Representatives that are pushing hard for that. Our leadership has assured us they will join that push. I want to say one more thing back on homeland security, Lou. Tom Ridge recognized the problems that I've described, and he's trying to crack down on those bureaucrats, but it's an unwieldy agency he's had to try to mold and to get disciplined.

DOBBS: Congressman Ernest Istook, we thank you very much for joining us.

ISTOOK: You bet. Thanks, Lou.

DOBBS: Taking a look at your thoughts. Maurice Norris of Secane, Pennsylvania wrote in to say, "Dear Lou, Secretary Rumsfeld's comment, you go to war with the army you have, is absolutely outrageous, not to mention insidious. How in the world can he expect the men and women fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan to have any confidence in their leadership when they have repeatedly failed to provide the troops with the materials necessary for their safety?"

Larry Aaron in Danville, Virginia. "Lou, it's obvious from the public grilling the troops gave Rumsfeld that the best army in the world is not being served by the world's best defense department. Rumsfeld's insensitivity is inexcusable."

Faith Gagne of South Yarmouth, Massachusetts. "I am astounded and angry at the carelessness and the neglect of our precious armed forces."

Send us your thoughts. E-mail us at loudobbs@CNN.com and include your name and hometown. The good news, the unemployment rate is 5.4 percent, the lowest in the past two months. But the number of Americans filing for jobless benefits this week unexpectedly rose. There are now almost 2.8 million Americans collecting unemployment benefits. That's the highest since September. Soon to be joining the ranks of the unemployed, thousands of Colgate-PalmOlive employees. That while the company's executives are enjoying some outrageous perks. Christine Romans is here with the story.

CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, Colgate-PalmOlive is cleaning house and executives are cleaning up. Two days ago, Colgate said it would axe 12 percent of its workforce in a restructuring. While more than 4,400 employees will lose their jobs, 800 top Colgate executives will be enjoying their perks. Top managers are allowed to spend up to $11,500 of company money each year on important perks to, quote, as the company tells employees, improve your effectiveness at Colgate and contribute positively to your personal and family life. Among those perks, dog-walking, concert tickets, gym memberships, family vacations, karate lessons the list goes on and on. At the same time, Colgate is closing one-third of its factories. While there's a cost-cutting measure under way to improve profitability, there's no indication the executives will share the burden and make some sacrifices. Colgate would not return our calls, Lou. Wanted to ask the company if any of those executives would be giving up any of those perks...

DOBBS: Sort of a share in the sacrifice program?

ROMANS: They didn't call us back.

DOBBS: Oh, my goodness, how distressing. Thank you very much, Christine.

When we continue here, we'll have a preview of what's ahead tomorrow. Please stay with us.

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DOBBS: Thank for being with us tonight. Please join us here tomorrow. We'll be taking a look at everything from space tourism to the bird flu with "Discover" magazine's 100 top science stories of the year. We'll be joined by editor-in-chief Steve Petranek as our guest. We'll include features from our special report as well. Tomorrow we'll be focusing on challenges as well to the institution of marriage in this country. For all of us here, good night from New York. "ANDERSON COOPER 360" is next.

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