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Lou Dobbs Tonight

Estimate of Insurgents Much Higher Than First Thought; Secretary Rice Promotes Unity in France

Aired February 08, 2005 - 18:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT for Tuesday, February 8. Here now for an hour of news, debate and opinion is Lou Dobbs.
LOU DOBBS, HOST: Good evening.

CNN tonight has exclusive new information about the number of insurgents in Iraq. The number is much higher than some earlier Pentagon estimates on the strength of the insurgency.

The Pentagon has also released new video that shows the rising importance of unmanned aircraft in this war against the insurgents and terrorists in Iraq.

Senior Pentagon correspondent Jamie McIntyre reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): This newly released video from a U.S. Air Force Predator spy plane shows a Hellfire missile launched at a window a sniper was using to pin down Marines in Najaf last summer.

Another video shows a dark patch in a road near Baghdad where insurgents are thought to go melting the asphalt to bury a bomb. A missile is launched by Air Force pilots who control the unmanned spy plane, not from Iraq but half a world away at Nellis Air Force Base, Nevada.

All told, the U.S. believes it has killed between 10,000 and 15,000 insurgents in Iraq last year, including an estimated 3,000 enemy deaths in the siege of Falluja alone.

But even as U.S. commanders claim success, a senior military official tells CNN there are still as many insurgents left as have been killed. According to an internal estimate, some 12,000 to 15,000 are Sunni Ba'athists insurgents. As many as 1,000 are fighters loyal to Abu Musab al-Zarqawi. And 500 or fewer are listed as foreign fighters.

But the highly committed insurgents are thought to number only 5,000 to 7,000, with the rest so-called fence sitters, who the U.S. hopes will begin to support the new Iraqi government.

GEN. RICHARD MYERS, JOINT CHIEFS CHAIRMAN: I think one of the things that we know from the elections, there will be a lot less fence-sitters, because they saw their fellow citizens go out and vote. MCINTYRE: Some Iraqi estimates have put the number of hard-core insurgents as high as 40,000, 200,000 if you count part-timers. U.S. commanders dismiss that as being vastly overstated, but having underestimated the insurgency early on, the Pentagon is reluctant to make its estimates public, even as Congress presses for hard numbers.

SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R), ARIZONA: I don't know how you defeat an insurgency unless you have some handle on the number of people that you are facing.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MCINTYRE: Now, recently the top commander in Iraq, General Casey, admitted that some of the original estimates of 6,000 to 9,000 insurgents were inaccurate, either because they underestimated the size or because the insurgency grew over time.

And Pentagon officials say that these latest numbers are just their best guess, and they admit they don't really know exactly how many enemy fighters they're facing -- Lou.

DOBBS: Jamie, a number of troubling elements within that even as you reveal these new numbers, the fact that our military intelligence in particular does not know whether the insurgency grew or whether they simply underestimated. It has to be extraordinarily troubling to the men and women at the Pentagon who are responsible for leading our young men and women in uniform in Iraq.

MCINTYRE: Well, what they're saying is that, you know, the facts over time -- clearly they didn't anticipate that they would have an insurgency that's as strong as it is now, and clearly, it seemed to grow over time.

The question is why, and what the motivations of those people are and whether they are, in fact, as the chairman said, fence sitters, who can come back and support the government.

The Pentagon just insists that there are too many variables for them to know, and what they have to deal with is a situation on the ground with their best guess of what they're up against.

DOBBS: The fact that the Pentagon is guessing at two years, just about two years after the war in Iraq. Obviously Senator, John McCain is not pleased with the ambiguous numbers and some of the comments that have been given to Congress, that kind of oversight. Is the Pentagon concerned about a rising interest in providing oversight from the U.S. Senate and Congress?

DOBBS: Well, the members of Congress were very upset that the Pentagon didn't seem to have any numbers that they could provide. The Pentagon insisted at times they were classified. They're supposed to be providing those numbers to Congress.

And as I said, we got some information from a senior official. So we called some of the members of Congress to find out whether they had been similarly briefed. So far we've gotten no response. DOBBS: Jamie McIntyre, thank you, our senior Pentagon correspondent.

In Iraq today, the deadliest single insurgent attack since the elections at the end of last month. A suicide bomber killed more than 20 people outside an Iraqi army base in Baghdad. Nearly 30 other people were wounded in the attack. The Iraqis were waiting in line again to join the Iraqi police.

This attack comes a day after suicide bombers killed 27 people in attacks in two other Iraqi cities.

Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice today called upon Europe to join forces with the United States to spread freedom around the world and to defeat radical Islamic terrorism.

In a speech in France, Rice declared that radical Islamists are swimming against the tide of the human spirit. Rice said it was a time for a new era in relations between France and the United States, France, of course, a frequent and vocal critic of U.S. foreign policy.

Andrea Koppel reports from Paris.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ANDREA KOPPEL, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice stepped deliberately into the heart of old Europe and took on some of the United States' harshest critics, telling her French audience it was time to close the chapter on Iraq.

CONDOLEEZZA RICE, SECRETARY OF STATE: We've had our disagreements, but it is time to turn away from the disagreements of the past.

KOPPEL: Instead, Rice told hundreds of mostly French academics and diplomats in Paris the U.S. and Europe had an obligation to spread freedom in the Middle East.

RICE: Imagine where we would be today if the brave founders of French liberty or of American liberty had simply been content with the world as it was.

KOPPEL: Expanding on President Bush's State of the Union address, Rice laid out a new strategic vision, likening the war on terrorism to the cooperation between U.S. and Europe in ending the Cold War.

RICE: We witnessed the power of that truth in that remarkable year of 1989, when the Berlin Wall was brought down by ordinary men and women in East Germany.

KOPPEL: Later, in a press conference, the French foreign minister echoed Rice's desire to start a new chapter but said France must be treated as an equal partner.

MICHAEL BARNIER, FRENCH FOREIGN MINISTER (through translator): We're allies. I also think that alliance is not allegiance, and we have reasons to talk to each other and to listen to each other more, respecting the convictions of each one of us.

KOPPEL (on camera): But warm words and optimism aside, there are still plenty of hot-button issues in the U.S./French relationship. The international criminal court, the EU/China arms embargo, and of course Iran, any one of which could spoil this new desire to kiss and make up.

Andrea Koppel, CNN, Paris.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

DOBBS: The Gallist leaders of the French government, of course, believes that France is the natural leader of all Europe and that Europe is equal to the United States. That means, in their reasoning, that France is likely to continue its existing policy with its anti- American tone, despite the secretary of state's call for unity.

Kitty Pilgrim reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KITTY PILGRIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Condoleezza Rice is hoping that fancy diplomatic settings and kind words will turn Europe away from the unpleasantness of the past, and some worry the anti-American sentiment has grown in recent months.

CHARLES KUPCHAN, GEORGETOWN UNIVERSITY: The European reaction to President Bush's reelection is worrisome, in that it did, to some extent, push anti-Bush sentiment in the direction of anti-American sentiment. In a place like Germany or France, you legitimate yourself domestically by standing against the United States.

PILGRIM: The United States is still facing glaring dissent from the French and other European nations on a series of issues.

The French oppose the United States over the Iraq war and still insist the military option was not called for.

France is siding with the Germans and the British on Iran's nuclear threat, preferring to negotiate. The United States does not believe those efforts will succeed, and prefers to take a harder line.

France, along with other European nations, wants to drop the China arms embargo imposed on China after the Tiananmen massacre. French President Chirac has made frequent trips to China, professing cooperation and friendship, in effect, seeking business ties, but the United States is very much opposed to China allowing to buy weapons and build up their military.

On all these issues, some say the United States will have to try hard to bring around Europe, particularly the French, but the French don't have much of a choice.

ROBERT GUTTMAN, JOHNS HOPKINS UNIVERSITY: Now, Bush is going to be here for four years. They may not like him. They might not like the way he talks, e walks, the Texas twang and all that. But he's going to be here for four years, so they're going to have to work with him. And I think we're going to see a reconciliation.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PILGRIM: Well, French President Jacques Chirac has not been among the list of invited guests to the president's ranch in Crawford, Texas, in the past year. Some speculate that may change and the French may be realistic enough to accept -- Lou.

DOBBS: Do you believe -- there's no question that Condoleezza Rice, as our new secretary of state, is off to an auspicious beginning, with the ceasefire, the summit between the Palestinians and the Israelis, and now this trip through Europe.

But is there any reason to believe she would be more successful than Colin Powell in bringing the French and the -- Germany to some level of understanding with the United States?

PILGRIM: Well, the rhetoric is not a policy shift. They're two different things. The rhetoric, as you say, is very conciliatory. We'll -- it's yet to be seen if there will be a policy shift that can please the Europeans. And, also, Condoleezza Rice is seen as very much more hard line than Colin Powell, who was seen as the voice of moderation in the Bush administration.

DOBBS: When you say "policy shift," I'm sure you're suggesting the French would shift their policies?

PILGRIM: Oh, absolutely.

DOBBS: Kitty, thank you very much.

Well, a major step forward tonight in the search for peace in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. The Israeli prime minister and the Palestinian president today declared a cease-fire, but at least one radical Islamist terrorist group immediately said it would ignore that agreement. The Israeli-Palestinian cease-fire came at the end of a summit meeting in the Egyptian resort of Sharm El-Sheikh.

Ben Wedeman reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BED WEDEMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Will this be the handshake that ends four-and-a-half years of bloodshed or just another handshake?

Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon and Palestinian leader Mahmoud Abbas met Tuesday in Sharm El-Sheikh for what was billed as a summit of hope, to end a conflict often described as hopeless. Perennial pessimism tentatively replaced by a glimmer of optimism.

The Palestinians pledged an end to attacks on Israel. Israel responding that it will suspend military operations in the West Bank and Gaza. The tone suddenly very different.

MAHMOUD ABBAS, PALESTINIAN PRESIDENT (through translator): We look forward to that day and hope that it will come as soon as possible in order that the language of negotiations will replace the language of bullets and cannons.

ARIEL SHARON, ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER (through translator): This is a very fragile opportunity, and we know that there are extremists who are just waiting to close this window of opportunity.

WEDEMAN: On the Israeli side, hard-line settlers in Gaza and the West Bank are vehemently opposed to any Israeli pull-back. And although Palestinian militant groups have agreed to hold their fire, Hamas for one says it's not bound by any cease-fire agreement.

The host of the summit, Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak, said he hoped progress between Israel and the Palestinians would spark a revival of talks with Lebanon and Syria, and the meeting ended with the announcement that Jordan and Egypt are ready to return their ambassadors to Tel Aviv after a four-year absence.

(on camera): But for all the progress apparently achieved here today, the real issues that sparked the Palestinian uprising in the first place, including the final status of Jerusalem and the Palestinian right of return, are no closer to resolution today than they were four-and-a-half years ago, but this handshake at least suggests a new beginning.

Ben Wedeman, CNN, Sharm El-Sheikh, Egypt.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

DOBBS: Coming up next here, Congress taking up the critically important issue of immigration reform. Will this country ever have true border security? That story is next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: This week, Congress is likely to vote on sweeping new proposals to control illegal aliens in this country and at least in part to secure our borders. The measure was originally part of the intelligence reform bill that Congress approved and the president signed at the end of last year, but those measures were removed from that bill at the last minute.

Congressional Correspondent Ed Henry has the report -- Ed.

ED HENRY, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Good evening, Lou.

As early as tomorrow, House Republican leaders will finally bring to the House floor those proposals, those immigration reforms proposals, by Congressman James Sensenbrenner which are left over from last year. They are very likely to clear the House this week, but they face an uncertain fate in the Senate amid deep divisions within the Republican Party over how to proceed on this immigration issue. Of course, the Sensenbrenner bill, as you remember, would ban illegal immigrants from getting driver's licenses. It would also tighten the U.S.-Mexico border by finishing a wall near San Diego. It would also make it harder for illegal aliens to seek political asylum.

And, also, applicants -- it would make it more difficult for the government to deny immigrants -- it would make it easier for them to deny immigrants who have supported terror organizations from getting into the United States.

Supporters like Congressman Lamar Smith, a Republican of Texas, say it's a critical piece of Homeland Security legislation.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. LAMAR SMITH (R), TEXAS: The real I.D. Act, which we are considering on the House floor this week, is needed because we simply want to deny terrorists the ability to move around our country, to get identification, and we want to be able to identify them and deport them, if necessary. This is not about immigration. This is about Homeland Security.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HENRY: That distinction is significant. House Majority Leader Tom DeLay made the same point today as well, that this is actually not, in their eyes, immigration reform.

They believe it's Homeland Security reform, and that semantical difference is important because Republicans know that because of the split within their party, they do not want to have an open-ended debate on all immigration reform proposals this week, including the guest worker program that is so controversial within the Republican Party that President Bush pushed last week in his State of the Union.

That split in the Republican Party is also evident over in the Senate where today I asked Majority Leader Bill Frist when he's planning to take up James Sensenbrenner's proposals.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. BILL FRIST (R-TN), MAJORITY LEADER: We'll so what the House does, what they propose, and I assume sometime over the course of the next several months, we'll be dealing with some element of immigration, but no commitments have been made. The sequence will be class-action bankruptcy. Then we'll come back and do the budget and do that -- which is going to take a couple of weeks, and then, after that, no commitments have been made.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HENRY: So Senator Frist is not clearly saying that he's even going to bring up James Sensenbrenner's proposals this year or next year even if they pass the House.

Another roadblock is even if they do get taken up in the Senate, House leaders are talking about adding the Sensenbrenner bill, merging it with the Iraq war funding bill that will be coming up soon, a must- pass legislation that they think will make it easier, get it faster to the president's desk for his signature, but Senate leaders so far have said that they would prefer to keep the Iraq funding bill clean, not merge it with anything.

So that's yet another roadblock, a difference here between House and Senate leaders -- Lou.

DOBBS: A difference between House and Senate leaders, and the deal with Sensenbrenner, when he withdrew his portion of the intelligence reform bill, was that it would be attached to a must-pass piece of legislation. That has been turned on its ear?

HENRY: Well, the Senate leaders don't feel that they are party to that deal. The House Republican leaders feel that Sensenbrenner is a member of the House, they certainly are on board for that.

And, as you know, they are planning to merge it with the Iraq funding bill. Senate leaders so far are not making that commitment. In fact, they're not even committing to bringing it up this year, as you heard Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist.

So it's yet another roadblock, Lou.

DOBBS: And it has all the appearance, frankly, and I think we should be straightforward about this, this looks like pure political gamesmanship, if not outright duplicity, on the partnership of the leadership in Congress.

HENRY: It's a very thorny issue. In fact, we've heard from multiple sources that, at the recent Republican retreat between the White House and House and Senate Republican leaders, this was a very thorny issue.

Now Tom DeLay insisted today that he felt some common ground was getting closer at that retreat. But we've heard from others that there are still very deep divisions, Lou, over immigration within that Republican Party.

DOBBS: And some considerable division as well within the Democratic Party.

Ed Henry.

Thank you very much.

Ed Henry will be following, of course, this story as will we all here as the year progresses.

Thank you.

Ed Henry from Capitol Hill.

The president's budget for 2006 eliminates federal funding that helps states cover the cost of keep illegal aliens in prison. Critics of President Bush's decision say it is time for the federal government to take responsibility for our national immigration policy. Imagine that possibility.

Casey Wian reports from Los Angeles.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Nearly one-quarter of the inmates in Los Angeles County jails are illegal aliens. The county spends between $70 million and $100 million a year jailing them for crimes other than immigration law violations.

Last year, the federal government paid $13 million to help cover those costs in Los Angeles, $300 million nationally. But the State Criminal Alien Assistance Program, or SCAAP, is on the president's budget-cutting block. He wants to eliminate the program, leaving local governments like Los Angeles County to foot the entire bill for illegal alien incarceration.

SHERIFF LEE BACA, LOS ANGELES COUNTY: It is a reimbursement practice that is very necessary to cover the costs that the federal government should cover. All the people that come to the jails come there because they have, in effect, entered the country illegally, thanks to the somewhat situational ineptitude of the federal government to protect its borders.

WIAN: The sheriff is trying to do his part. He's persuaded county supervisors to allow Immigration and Customs Enforcement officers to train his jail staff to identify illegal alien convicts and turn them over to immigration officials.

Some in Congress want more assistance from the federal government and are demanding SCAAP funding be increased, not eliminated. Senator Dianne Feinstein and a dozen mostly border state lawmakers are pushing for $5.5 billion over the next six years.

SEN. DIANNE FEINSTEIN (D), CALIFORNIA: Well, this is one biggest unfunded mandates of them all. The president -- rather than giving 2,000 Border Control agents, the president's budget contains funding for 200. That is just a kind of major loophole in our borders.

WIAN: The president's budget says SCAAP is being cut because it amounts to revenue-sharing, bit assistance targeted to a particular need. Border state senators say federal help paying the billion dollars a year it costs to jail illegal aliens is a desperate need.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WIAN: This drama has paid out in each of the past three years with the White House first cutting the funds, then Congress restoring some of them. Local law-enforcement officials say they're tired of the act and tired of paying for the consequences of the federal government's failure to control the nation's borders -- Lou.

DOBBS: Well, a lot of people are getting tired of that act. It is, of course, a number of acts in this play. The fact is not only is Senator Dianne Feinstein leading the way to introducing legislation to reintroduce that money to help out the states, but the fact is President Bush, when he was governor of the State of Texas, was all for that program when he was responsible for a border state.

So our immigration policies in this country, Casey, as you've reported extensively here, an absolute disaster. Our border security all but nonexistent.

Casey Wian reporting from Los Angeles.

Thank you, sir.

We'll much have more on the immigration crisis in this country later. I'll be talking with Senator John Cornyn, who supports the president's plan to legalize millions of illegal aliens, and Congressman Lincoln Davis, who is one of only two Democrats to cosponsor new legislation that would prevent illegal aliens from obtaining driver's licenses.

And that brings us to the subject of our poll tonight. Who should bear the cost of jailing criminal illegal aliens -- the federal government, state governments or the countries of origin? Cast your vote at loudobbs.com. We'll have the results, of course, later here in the broadcast.

Thousands of people in New Orleans tonight are celebrating Fat Tuesday with beads and beers in hand. The crowds ignored the rainy weather during the 11 parades that rolled through the city. Fat Tuesday, the day before Lent begins, is the earliest it's been in 15 years, by the way.

Another pre-Lenten celebration in Rio de Janeiro, Brazil, where some 65,000 people gathered for the second night of the samba parade during Carnivale week. The 12-hour event features floats, music, colorful costumes and extraordinarily colorful folks having a very good time.

Next, the escalating battle over the president's budget. I'll be joined by one senator who calls it another shell game from the White House.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ANNOUNCER: LOU DOBBS TONIGHT continues. Here now for more news, debate and opinion, Lou Dobbs.

DOBBS: In just a moment here, one senator on the Budget Committee who talks about why some senators are more concerned with what's not in the president's budget.

But, first, these stories tonight.

The Vatican now responding to questions of whether Pope John Paul II will step down. The Vatican says the pope knows what to do and will make that decision himself. The pope has been hospitalized for the past week with a respiratory infection. Popes can resign, but cannot be forced to step down. There's not been a papal resignation in nearly 600 years.

In Florida today, a frightening emergency landing. The pilot of this twin-engine Cessna reported trouble with the plane's landing gear, flying around for 20 minutes burning fuel and then landing. The plane's right wheel appeared to collapse upon impact. The aircraft landed partly on its belly. And the pilot, doing a remarkable job, brought the plane to a safe standstill. No one was injured.

The senior political strategist who ran President Bush's reelection campaign has been promoted. Karl Rove is now the deputy chief of staff. Rove will continue to oversee political affairs, but he will now be involved in developing international and domestic policy and coordinating all of those policies.

President Bush today challenged Congress to show discipline in the intensifying debate over his $2-1/1 trillion budget for next year. Two of the president's top officials faced tough questioning on Capitol Hill today, as they tried to convince some lawmakers to support the budget.

Elaine Quijano reports from the White House -- Elaine.

ELAINE QUIJANO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, President Bush says taxpayer dollars should be spent wisely or not at all. That was the budget message that he took with him when he spoke at the Detroit Economic Club, a gathering of auto executives and others today.

The president's $2-1/2 trillion budget proposals calls for cutting back or cutting completely some 150 federal programs, programs he says are redundant or not achieving results. Mr. Bush also discussed the centerpiece of his domestic agenda, overhauling Social Security to keep it solvent. The president maintains unless lawmakers act soon, the system will run out of money in the year 2042.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: If you see a train wreck coming, you ought to be saying what are you going to do about it, Mr. Congressman or Madam Congressman. Are you going to sit there and let the train run over younger workers, or are you going to act? I'm calling upon the Congress to act.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

QUIJANO: On Capitol Hill, Bush administration officials defended the president's budget as well as his ideas on Social Security. Treasury Secretary John Snow, as well as Office of Management and Budget Director Josh Bolten, appearing before lawmakers today.

They reiterated the president's belief that the solution to saving Social Security lies in part in voluntary private accounts, but Democrats vehemently oppose the idea, saying it would mean cutting benefits and would not provide a long-term fix.

SEN. MAX BAUCUS (D), MONTANA: The president has fanned the fears of America's younger workers, has argued that we need to do something immediately to eliminate the long-term insolvency of the Social Security system. But what he has announced so far does not get us one dime closer to solving the problem. What he has proposed thus far would actually make the problem worse.

QUIJANO: Now the president will be traveling to North Carolina and Pennsylvania later this week to try and push his ideas again on Social Security. But even some lawmakers within the president's party, some Republicans, have expressed reservations about the transition costs. President Bush's answer to that, he is open to all ideas, with the exception of raising payroll taxes -- Lou.

DOBBS: Elaine, thank you very much, Elaine Quijano from the White House.

My guest tonight is a member of the Senate Budget Committee who says President Bush's budget is full of wrong choices. She says we need to be more concerned with investing in the things that keep America strong. Joining me now from Washington, D.C., is Senator Debbie Stabenow.

Good to have you with us, Senator.

SEN. DEBBIE STABENOW (D-MI), SENATE BUDGET CMTE.: Well, good evening, Lou.

DOBBS: The budget, is it, as has been the case in so many budgets over the past decade, at least, basically dead on arrival?

STABENOW: Well, Lou, what's most important is to look at not only what's in the budget but what isn't in the budget. And to also put it in context, if we take out defense, you could basically eliminate every penny of non-defense discretionary spending, education, research, environmental protection, health care programs, and you would equal the national debt this year.

So we can't just talk about what is in this budget. We have to talk about what's not in this budget: the cost of the war, the $2 trillion that the president says he wants to spend on Social Security privatization, some of his tax plans.

And as you said, this is really about values and priorities, and when you look at this budget, one out of three of the programs he wants to cut is education, educating or children, investing in workers. And when we look at things like the Manufacturing Extension Partnership, which helps small- and medium-sized businesses compete, they want to cut that by 57 percent and eliminate the Advanced Technology Program, which has helped us create new technology. So it really just doesn't add up and it doesn't make sense.

DOBBS: And also cutting the trade adjustment for firms as well.

STABENOW: Absolutely.

DOBBS: The host of things, as we move into what is in that budget, Senator, the fact is we're talking about cutting -- the president is talking about cutting $6 billion in farm subsidies, talking about rolling back $1 billion in food stamps. The impetus for this, is, as always, it's a bit of a kabuki dance, I think you would agree, as the president holds forth this budget.

But it is Congress after all that sets the budget. And what is the message here? We're going to be treated to this back and forth between both parties and apparently between members of the president's own party on much of the budget. What is this process all about? Where does it lead, because the experience has been the last time -- the last budget by President Bush, he said we're going to cut 65 programs, they cut four?

He proposes cutting 150 programs this time, how many do you think will actually get cut?

STABENOW: Well, again, you could cut every single non-defense program and not cut this deficit. So what we're going to be talking about is what are the critical investments? And you're right, there are major disagreements with the president about what invests in the economy for the future.

But also I think, and as a member of the budget committee, I'm going to talk about the fact that four and a half years ago we had the largest budget surplus in the history of the country. And predominantly because of the president's policies we have the largest deficit in the history of the country, the largest trade deficit in the history of the country.

And you know, the president was in my home state today, and I welcome that, but I have to tell you, if he wants to talk about a train wreck, let's talk about the number of jobs being exported overseas as you talk about so well. Let's talk about the explosion in health care costs affecting every business and every individual in my state.

DOBBS: The idea that this budget process could go forward, the president talking about Social Security, an issue 42 -- basically 37 years out, if we accept the most recent projection, Social Security has been moved to the top of the president's agenda.

There seem to be so many other looming issues that would, one think -- one would think, excite our elected officials in Washington, like the fact that we have no border security, like the fact we have a $4 trillion external trade debt, a $6 billion trade deficit, a dollar that is threatened on all quarters.

When in the world are we going to see a response on the basic and fundamental issues? This president talks about education, Senator, as you well know, but where is the investment?

STABENOW: Lou, I could not agree more. I mean, we all know, Democrats and Republicans know that we need to make some changes. And we can make small changes now that four or five decades from now have big results in Social Security. And we're all prepared to come together to do that.

We know that privatization doesn't help at all, so I hope we get that off the table. But then you're absolutely right. I sit on the Banking Committee. And we have been asking the Treasury secretary to certify that China manipulates their currency.

Right now, in fact, China is selling five times more goods to us than we're selling them and they cost less artificially and that's costing jobs in Michigan. It means my manufacturers don't have a level playing field. It costs them more to sell to China.

Right now, if we're talking again about a sense of urgency -- and we need to address Social Security and we will, but right now what I'm most concerned about the jobs leaving today in Michigan while the president's there, or the folks that are getting double-digit increases in their health care costs. My state is being overwhelmed with Medicaid costs.

And so we have a lot that we need to work on together, and I'm fully prepared as a member of the Budget Committee and the Banking Committee, as are my Democratic colleagues, to work with the president on those things that will allow us to generate the economic activity and the quality of life we all want.

DOBBS: Senator, as you say, the state of Michigan suffering, along with the state of Ohio, some of the most severe pain, but the fact is that wages are stagnant across the country, the assault on the middle class is a national issue as you well know and are dealing with. We thank you very much. Senator Debbie Stabenow, thank you for being here.

STABENOW: Thank you.

DOBBS: Taking a look at some of your thoughts on this issue of "Broken Borders."

Sheryl in Arvada, Colorado: "I am dumbfounded by the lack of interest and inaction on illegal immigration. How can we consider ourselves even remotely secure with 3 million unidentified persons flooding into our country in just one year?"

Thomas Sparrow in Auburn, Alabama: "This is such a silent invasion into our great country and we need to have our political leaders finally take ownership of this issue and do something about it instead of being so worried about the Mexico/Latino vote. They would probably find out that most Mexicans/Latinos who immigrated legally would like to close the borders to illegal immigration, just as much as natural born Americans."

Pati in Van Wert, Ohio: "I am insulted and outraged to think that are administration believes that hiring 210 new Border Patrol guards would even be a drop in the bucket."

James Murphy in North Hills, California: "The budget for border security makes sense only if the president and Congress want to encourage illegal aliens to come here."

And from Dallas, Texas: "Lou, I admire your stance on the need for the formulation of a sensible immigration policy that will work to the advantage of the United States, but unfortunately you're fighting a losing battle. Being an international student myself, i have borne witness to how my fellow colleagues repeatedly flout their visa conditions with impunity, knowing fully well that it would take a miracle for any action whatsoever to be taken against them." Anonymous.

And Bob Yeager in Chestertown, Maryland: "You don't understand the real issue with President Bush. He has a decimal point problem. First it was $35 million for tsunami relief when he meant $350 million. Now it's 210 Border Patrol agents instead of 2,100. I'm afraid to look at what the real budget deficit numbers are."

And well you should be. Send us your thoughts at loudobbs.com.

Next, why our nation's railways could be millions of American lives at risk.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: In our special report tonight, America's security risks, the threat to our nation's railways. Over the past three years the federal government has spent $11 billion on security upgrades for the airline industry, but in that time, very little has been done to improve security for this nation's railways. Lisa Sylvester reports from Washington.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

LISA SYLVESTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): In California, a suicidal man parked his SUV on the tracks causing a train accident that killed 11 people and injured 200. In South Carolina, nine people were killed and an entire town had to be evacuated for eight days when a tanker train crashed releasing a toxic cloud of chlorine.

The two accidents illustrate the vulnerability of the nation's railway system. Critics call trains that transport hazardous materials rolling weapons of mass destruction.

REP. PETER DEFAZIO (D), OREGON: We're inviting an attack and horrible consequences, and I don't want to have another tombstone mentality reaction by the Congress and federal government like after 9/11.

SYLVESTER: Five times more people travel by train than by air, yet the government has spent $11 billion for airport security but only $35 million for rail. According to the National Transportation Safety Board, more than half of the 60,000 rail tank cars transporting toxic materials are not up to standards. The Teamsters Union says some rail yards and tracks are not adequately secured.

RICK INCLIMA, TEAMSTERS RAILWAY CONFERENCE: Some of them have security cameras in place and fencing, others are pretty much wide open and pretty much any Tom, Dick or Harry can walk into a rail yard. It's anybody's guess as to when or if they'll be stopped.

EDWARD HAMBERGER, ASSN. OF AMERICAN RAILROADS: I think we've done a good job of shutting down access to our rail yards. It is impossible to shut down access to 120,000 miles of track around the country but again we have identified 1,308 critical assets. We have plans to protect those as the alert level goes up.

SYLVESTER: The industry has been looking at ways to improve security, including screening bags on passenger trains and tightening security at rail yards. Some cities are taking action on their own. Washington, D.C. city council has temporary banned the transport of hazardous materials through the district.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(on camera): The Transportation Security Administration did not make anyone available for an interview, but two bills have been introduced in Congress this year that call for upgrading Hazmat train cars, increasing the fines and greater federal authority over railroads -- Lou.

DOBBS: Thank you, Lisa Sylvester. Next here, one of only two Democrats who is cosponsoring a bill designed to keep driver's licenses out of the hands of illegal aliens.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: Congress tomorrow begins a debate on legislation to crack down on driver's licenses for illegal aliens. Congressman James Sensenbrenner's proposal has 130 Republican cosponsors, but it has only two Democrats. Congressman Lincoln Davis from Tennessee is one of those. I asked Congressman Davis earlier why he decided to join the effort.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

REP. LINCOLN DAVIS (D-TN), TRANSPORT & INFRASTRUCTURE CMTE.: Well, obviously as I look at the bill and see the content of it I think it is something that we should be doing. Tennessee, for instance, recently we just passed a very strong driver's license bill which previous to that had been pretty well open and there were people coming there from all across this nation to get their driver's license. Now we've actually come into conformity as to what this bill would call for on the national level. And as I observe and travel throughout the district, I hear a lot of people who are concerned about this issue. We talk about Social Security, we talk about deficits, we talk about healthcare, but this issue comes up probably as much or more than any other issue that I talk about. I think my constituents deserve attention to this matter.

DOBBS: It appears there is a tremendous disconnect, Congressman, between the people and our elected officials in Washington. In survey after survey, poll after poll, 70 percent of Americans want real border security, they want real security, not P.R. security. Yet last year 3 million illegal aliens crossed our borders into this country. How is that anyone in Congress can keep a straight face when they suggest that we have national security at heart when that can occur on our borders? DAVIS: I think what the situation is is that in the past when someone came across the border either from the north or the south, they were just coming here at a request of those maybe to actually -- that they needed someone to work. Unfortunately what's happened in the last decade or so, is there's been just an onslaught of individuals crossing the border illegally into this country. We have laws in this country and we ought to be enforcing those laws. I hope this legislation will bring about that activity. And I don't know how folks can be blinded to the fact that that's happening, because it is, and we should make an effort to enforce America's laws.

DOBBS: One of your colleagues, Congresswoman Jane Harman called the Sensenbrenner bill redundant saying that his concerns had been addressed by the intelligence reform legislation. What's your response?

DAVIS: Actually I think when you look at this, it sets in motion and gives guidance to the intel bill. For instance, folks who may come here for asylum to receive admission to this country, we give some pretty strong interviews, and in fact we should be allowed to deport anyone that meets the criteria that would prevent them from coming here. I think the driver's license part of this particular bill is very, very good, gives some instructions. I don't think it is redundant. I think these four particular areas we're talking about on this bill are certainly necessary and will improve our ability to control our borders.

DOBBS: In terms of controlling our borders, President Bush has sent a budget plan to Congress calling for 210 additional border patrol agents. What's your reaction to that?

DAVIS: I'm a farm boy, and if we need five people to haul in hay, we don't take one and just work them to death. If we need five, we get five. We need to increase that number dramatically. We need more planes in the air, we need to protect the borders, and 250 or the small amount that he's asked for certainly will not be adequate and we need to address this issue and I don't think that's doing that.

DOBBS: Congressman Lincoln Davis, we thank you for being with us.

DAVIS: Lou Dobbs, thank you for having me on.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

DOBBS: A reminder now to vote in our poll tonight. Who should bear the cost of jailing criminal illegal aliens? The federal government, state governments or the countries of origin? Cast your vote at loudobbs.com. We'll have the results later here in the broadcast.

Next, one senator who supports giving legal status to millions of illegal aliens. We'll be talking to him next. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) DOBBS: My guest tonight is a vocal supporter of the president's plan to give millions of illegal aliens in this country legal status. Senator John Cornyn of Texas has been appointed chairman of the judiciary subcommittee on immigration, border security and citizenship, joining us tonight from Capitol Hill. Senator, good to have you with us.

SEN. JOHN CORNYN (R), TEXAS: Thank you, Lou.

DOBBS: Let's begin with, if we could, just the basic issue of border security. The estimate that 3 million illegal aliens crossed our borders last year, and I'd like to talk about border security first before going to immigration. Just in terms of border security, that's mind-boggling. It suggests that we have none at all, wouldn't you say?

CORNYN: I agree with you, Lou. Our borders are too porous, and in a post-9/11 world even though we may have ignored it basically since the last amnesty bill that was passed in 1986, which I don't support by the way, we've simply got a mandate now I think from the American people and out of self-defense, we need to secure our borders. We need to know who is coming in and who is leaving and who is in our country and where they are. Unfortunately we don't have that information right now.

DOBBS: We don't have that information, and we simply haven't the manpower to create that information, to gather that information. The president's new budget, Senator, calls for an additional 210 border patrol agents. Is the president trying -- is this administration trying to say that we're just kidding about border security and immigration?

CORNYN: Well, I support a larger number. I think the federal government has for such a long time neglected its responsibilities, but unfortunately that financial burden and the consequences of illegal immigration has fallen on local border communities and on taxpayers' generally when it's a federal responsibility, and so I think the federal government has to step up, including on more border patrol.

DOBBS: And you support, then, Senator Dianne Feinstein's legislation that would bring back the program to help states fund the incarceration of illegal aliens, amongst other things?

CORNYN: Absolutely. We -- you know, here again, living in Texas, being from San Antonio, we see it -- see the issue up close and personal, and unfortunately the federal government here in Washington does not pay attention to the problem like it should, nor fund programs, leaving the burden on local hospitals, local taxpayers and local law enforcement.

DOBBS: President Bush maintains that his guest worker proposal is not amnesty, but nearly everyone that I have talked with, with whom I have spoken, has said it's amnesty by any definition. How do you react? CORNYN: Well, I am opposed to amnesty. What I believe would be amnesty is to say, OK, you're here illegally, you can go ahead and stay here, and by the way, we'll make you an American citizen.

What I proposed is what we call a work and return program, not a work and stay program, but it's part of a larger -- a larger issue, and that is border security, so we know who's coming in our country and when they leave, and we know for purposes of homeland security where people are when they're in our country. But unfortunately we have about 10 million people who are currently here, about 6 million in the workforce, and we couldn't even find them if we wanted to now. We simply don't have the means due to neglect over the last 20 years or so.

DOBBS: Do you think we're about to find the will, Senator Cornyn?

CORNYN: I think in a post-9/11 world we'll find the will to pass some real document integrity legislation, which I support. We've got some programs that are being implemented now, the U.S. visit program, to monitor people when they come in and when they leave, and we simply have to find a way to bring people out of the shadows, and off the cash economy, bring them, I believe, on the tax rolls, and to be able to screen them to make sure that they're not a threat to the American people, and hopefully concentrate our law enforcement resources on the true threat, which is the terrorists.

DOBBS: Senator John Cornyn, we thank you for being here.

CORNYN: Thank you, Lou. Good to be with you.

DOBBS: Thank you.

Well, you might want to check the change in your pockets tonight. You may well have a quarter worth hundreds of dollars. The U.S. Mint produced 453 million Wisconsin quarters last fall. Most of those quarters are of course exactly the same, but a rare few have an extra leaf on the tail side of the coin. That imperfection has increased the value of those quarters substantially. Some coin collectors have already been paid as much as $600 for one of those rare quarters.

Still ahead the results of our poll tonight, a preview of what's ahead tomorrow. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

The results of tonight's poll. 61 percent of you say countries of origin should bear the cost of jailing criminal illegal aliens. 38 percent say the federal government.

Thank for being with us here tonight. Please join us tomorrow. America's security risk, our nuclear power plants could be easy targets for terrorists. And tomorrow as well, why a leading Republican now has concerns about the president's plans for Social Security.

And exporting your child's education to a foreign country just to save a buck. Outsourcing American education tomorrow.

For all of us here, good night from New York. "ANDERSON COOPER 360" is next.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com


Aired February 8, 2005 - 18:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT for Tuesday, February 8. Here now for an hour of news, debate and opinion is Lou Dobbs.
LOU DOBBS, HOST: Good evening.

CNN tonight has exclusive new information about the number of insurgents in Iraq. The number is much higher than some earlier Pentagon estimates on the strength of the insurgency.

The Pentagon has also released new video that shows the rising importance of unmanned aircraft in this war against the insurgents and terrorists in Iraq.

Senior Pentagon correspondent Jamie McIntyre reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): This newly released video from a U.S. Air Force Predator spy plane shows a Hellfire missile launched at a window a sniper was using to pin down Marines in Najaf last summer.

Another video shows a dark patch in a road near Baghdad where insurgents are thought to go melting the asphalt to bury a bomb. A missile is launched by Air Force pilots who control the unmanned spy plane, not from Iraq but half a world away at Nellis Air Force Base, Nevada.

All told, the U.S. believes it has killed between 10,000 and 15,000 insurgents in Iraq last year, including an estimated 3,000 enemy deaths in the siege of Falluja alone.

But even as U.S. commanders claim success, a senior military official tells CNN there are still as many insurgents left as have been killed. According to an internal estimate, some 12,000 to 15,000 are Sunni Ba'athists insurgents. As many as 1,000 are fighters loyal to Abu Musab al-Zarqawi. And 500 or fewer are listed as foreign fighters.

But the highly committed insurgents are thought to number only 5,000 to 7,000, with the rest so-called fence sitters, who the U.S. hopes will begin to support the new Iraqi government.

GEN. RICHARD MYERS, JOINT CHIEFS CHAIRMAN: I think one of the things that we know from the elections, there will be a lot less fence-sitters, because they saw their fellow citizens go out and vote. MCINTYRE: Some Iraqi estimates have put the number of hard-core insurgents as high as 40,000, 200,000 if you count part-timers. U.S. commanders dismiss that as being vastly overstated, but having underestimated the insurgency early on, the Pentagon is reluctant to make its estimates public, even as Congress presses for hard numbers.

SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R), ARIZONA: I don't know how you defeat an insurgency unless you have some handle on the number of people that you are facing.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MCINTYRE: Now, recently the top commander in Iraq, General Casey, admitted that some of the original estimates of 6,000 to 9,000 insurgents were inaccurate, either because they underestimated the size or because the insurgency grew over time.

And Pentagon officials say that these latest numbers are just their best guess, and they admit they don't really know exactly how many enemy fighters they're facing -- Lou.

DOBBS: Jamie, a number of troubling elements within that even as you reveal these new numbers, the fact that our military intelligence in particular does not know whether the insurgency grew or whether they simply underestimated. It has to be extraordinarily troubling to the men and women at the Pentagon who are responsible for leading our young men and women in uniform in Iraq.

MCINTYRE: Well, what they're saying is that, you know, the facts over time -- clearly they didn't anticipate that they would have an insurgency that's as strong as it is now, and clearly, it seemed to grow over time.

The question is why, and what the motivations of those people are and whether they are, in fact, as the chairman said, fence sitters, who can come back and support the government.

The Pentagon just insists that there are too many variables for them to know, and what they have to deal with is a situation on the ground with their best guess of what they're up against.

DOBBS: The fact that the Pentagon is guessing at two years, just about two years after the war in Iraq. Obviously Senator, John McCain is not pleased with the ambiguous numbers and some of the comments that have been given to Congress, that kind of oversight. Is the Pentagon concerned about a rising interest in providing oversight from the U.S. Senate and Congress?

DOBBS: Well, the members of Congress were very upset that the Pentagon didn't seem to have any numbers that they could provide. The Pentagon insisted at times they were classified. They're supposed to be providing those numbers to Congress.

And as I said, we got some information from a senior official. So we called some of the members of Congress to find out whether they had been similarly briefed. So far we've gotten no response. DOBBS: Jamie McIntyre, thank you, our senior Pentagon correspondent.

In Iraq today, the deadliest single insurgent attack since the elections at the end of last month. A suicide bomber killed more than 20 people outside an Iraqi army base in Baghdad. Nearly 30 other people were wounded in the attack. The Iraqis were waiting in line again to join the Iraqi police.

This attack comes a day after suicide bombers killed 27 people in attacks in two other Iraqi cities.

Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice today called upon Europe to join forces with the United States to spread freedom around the world and to defeat radical Islamic terrorism.

In a speech in France, Rice declared that radical Islamists are swimming against the tide of the human spirit. Rice said it was a time for a new era in relations between France and the United States, France, of course, a frequent and vocal critic of U.S. foreign policy.

Andrea Koppel reports from Paris.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ANDREA KOPPEL, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice stepped deliberately into the heart of old Europe and took on some of the United States' harshest critics, telling her French audience it was time to close the chapter on Iraq.

CONDOLEEZZA RICE, SECRETARY OF STATE: We've had our disagreements, but it is time to turn away from the disagreements of the past.

KOPPEL: Instead, Rice told hundreds of mostly French academics and diplomats in Paris the U.S. and Europe had an obligation to spread freedom in the Middle East.

RICE: Imagine where we would be today if the brave founders of French liberty or of American liberty had simply been content with the world as it was.

KOPPEL: Expanding on President Bush's State of the Union address, Rice laid out a new strategic vision, likening the war on terrorism to the cooperation between U.S. and Europe in ending the Cold War.

RICE: We witnessed the power of that truth in that remarkable year of 1989, when the Berlin Wall was brought down by ordinary men and women in East Germany.

KOPPEL: Later, in a press conference, the French foreign minister echoed Rice's desire to start a new chapter but said France must be treated as an equal partner.

MICHAEL BARNIER, FRENCH FOREIGN MINISTER (through translator): We're allies. I also think that alliance is not allegiance, and we have reasons to talk to each other and to listen to each other more, respecting the convictions of each one of us.

KOPPEL (on camera): But warm words and optimism aside, there are still plenty of hot-button issues in the U.S./French relationship. The international criminal court, the EU/China arms embargo, and of course Iran, any one of which could spoil this new desire to kiss and make up.

Andrea Koppel, CNN, Paris.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

DOBBS: The Gallist leaders of the French government, of course, believes that France is the natural leader of all Europe and that Europe is equal to the United States. That means, in their reasoning, that France is likely to continue its existing policy with its anti- American tone, despite the secretary of state's call for unity.

Kitty Pilgrim reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KITTY PILGRIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Condoleezza Rice is hoping that fancy diplomatic settings and kind words will turn Europe away from the unpleasantness of the past, and some worry the anti-American sentiment has grown in recent months.

CHARLES KUPCHAN, GEORGETOWN UNIVERSITY: The European reaction to President Bush's reelection is worrisome, in that it did, to some extent, push anti-Bush sentiment in the direction of anti-American sentiment. In a place like Germany or France, you legitimate yourself domestically by standing against the United States.

PILGRIM: The United States is still facing glaring dissent from the French and other European nations on a series of issues.

The French oppose the United States over the Iraq war and still insist the military option was not called for.

France is siding with the Germans and the British on Iran's nuclear threat, preferring to negotiate. The United States does not believe those efforts will succeed, and prefers to take a harder line.

France, along with other European nations, wants to drop the China arms embargo imposed on China after the Tiananmen massacre. French President Chirac has made frequent trips to China, professing cooperation and friendship, in effect, seeking business ties, but the United States is very much opposed to China allowing to buy weapons and build up their military.

On all these issues, some say the United States will have to try hard to bring around Europe, particularly the French, but the French don't have much of a choice.

ROBERT GUTTMAN, JOHNS HOPKINS UNIVERSITY: Now, Bush is going to be here for four years. They may not like him. They might not like the way he talks, e walks, the Texas twang and all that. But he's going to be here for four years, so they're going to have to work with him. And I think we're going to see a reconciliation.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PILGRIM: Well, French President Jacques Chirac has not been among the list of invited guests to the president's ranch in Crawford, Texas, in the past year. Some speculate that may change and the French may be realistic enough to accept -- Lou.

DOBBS: Do you believe -- there's no question that Condoleezza Rice, as our new secretary of state, is off to an auspicious beginning, with the ceasefire, the summit between the Palestinians and the Israelis, and now this trip through Europe.

But is there any reason to believe she would be more successful than Colin Powell in bringing the French and the -- Germany to some level of understanding with the United States?

PILGRIM: Well, the rhetoric is not a policy shift. They're two different things. The rhetoric, as you say, is very conciliatory. We'll -- it's yet to be seen if there will be a policy shift that can please the Europeans. And, also, Condoleezza Rice is seen as very much more hard line than Colin Powell, who was seen as the voice of moderation in the Bush administration.

DOBBS: When you say "policy shift," I'm sure you're suggesting the French would shift their policies?

PILGRIM: Oh, absolutely.

DOBBS: Kitty, thank you very much.

Well, a major step forward tonight in the search for peace in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. The Israeli prime minister and the Palestinian president today declared a cease-fire, but at least one radical Islamist terrorist group immediately said it would ignore that agreement. The Israeli-Palestinian cease-fire came at the end of a summit meeting in the Egyptian resort of Sharm El-Sheikh.

Ben Wedeman reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BED WEDEMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Will this be the handshake that ends four-and-a-half years of bloodshed or just another handshake?

Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon and Palestinian leader Mahmoud Abbas met Tuesday in Sharm El-Sheikh for what was billed as a summit of hope, to end a conflict often described as hopeless. Perennial pessimism tentatively replaced by a glimmer of optimism.

The Palestinians pledged an end to attacks on Israel. Israel responding that it will suspend military operations in the West Bank and Gaza. The tone suddenly very different.

MAHMOUD ABBAS, PALESTINIAN PRESIDENT (through translator): We look forward to that day and hope that it will come as soon as possible in order that the language of negotiations will replace the language of bullets and cannons.

ARIEL SHARON, ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER (through translator): This is a very fragile opportunity, and we know that there are extremists who are just waiting to close this window of opportunity.

WEDEMAN: On the Israeli side, hard-line settlers in Gaza and the West Bank are vehemently opposed to any Israeli pull-back. And although Palestinian militant groups have agreed to hold their fire, Hamas for one says it's not bound by any cease-fire agreement.

The host of the summit, Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak, said he hoped progress between Israel and the Palestinians would spark a revival of talks with Lebanon and Syria, and the meeting ended with the announcement that Jordan and Egypt are ready to return their ambassadors to Tel Aviv after a four-year absence.

(on camera): But for all the progress apparently achieved here today, the real issues that sparked the Palestinian uprising in the first place, including the final status of Jerusalem and the Palestinian right of return, are no closer to resolution today than they were four-and-a-half years ago, but this handshake at least suggests a new beginning.

Ben Wedeman, CNN, Sharm El-Sheikh, Egypt.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

DOBBS: Coming up next here, Congress taking up the critically important issue of immigration reform. Will this country ever have true border security? That story is next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: This week, Congress is likely to vote on sweeping new proposals to control illegal aliens in this country and at least in part to secure our borders. The measure was originally part of the intelligence reform bill that Congress approved and the president signed at the end of last year, but those measures were removed from that bill at the last minute.

Congressional Correspondent Ed Henry has the report -- Ed.

ED HENRY, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Good evening, Lou.

As early as tomorrow, House Republican leaders will finally bring to the House floor those proposals, those immigration reforms proposals, by Congressman James Sensenbrenner which are left over from last year. They are very likely to clear the House this week, but they face an uncertain fate in the Senate amid deep divisions within the Republican Party over how to proceed on this immigration issue. Of course, the Sensenbrenner bill, as you remember, would ban illegal immigrants from getting driver's licenses. It would also tighten the U.S.-Mexico border by finishing a wall near San Diego. It would also make it harder for illegal aliens to seek political asylum.

And, also, applicants -- it would make it more difficult for the government to deny immigrants -- it would make it easier for them to deny immigrants who have supported terror organizations from getting into the United States.

Supporters like Congressman Lamar Smith, a Republican of Texas, say it's a critical piece of Homeland Security legislation.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. LAMAR SMITH (R), TEXAS: The real I.D. Act, which we are considering on the House floor this week, is needed because we simply want to deny terrorists the ability to move around our country, to get identification, and we want to be able to identify them and deport them, if necessary. This is not about immigration. This is about Homeland Security.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HENRY: That distinction is significant. House Majority Leader Tom DeLay made the same point today as well, that this is actually not, in their eyes, immigration reform.

They believe it's Homeland Security reform, and that semantical difference is important because Republicans know that because of the split within their party, they do not want to have an open-ended debate on all immigration reform proposals this week, including the guest worker program that is so controversial within the Republican Party that President Bush pushed last week in his State of the Union.

That split in the Republican Party is also evident over in the Senate where today I asked Majority Leader Bill Frist when he's planning to take up James Sensenbrenner's proposals.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. BILL FRIST (R-TN), MAJORITY LEADER: We'll so what the House does, what they propose, and I assume sometime over the course of the next several months, we'll be dealing with some element of immigration, but no commitments have been made. The sequence will be class-action bankruptcy. Then we'll come back and do the budget and do that -- which is going to take a couple of weeks, and then, after that, no commitments have been made.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HENRY: So Senator Frist is not clearly saying that he's even going to bring up James Sensenbrenner's proposals this year or next year even if they pass the House.

Another roadblock is even if they do get taken up in the Senate, House leaders are talking about adding the Sensenbrenner bill, merging it with the Iraq war funding bill that will be coming up soon, a must- pass legislation that they think will make it easier, get it faster to the president's desk for his signature, but Senate leaders so far have said that they would prefer to keep the Iraq funding bill clean, not merge it with anything.

So that's yet another roadblock, a difference here between House and Senate leaders -- Lou.

DOBBS: A difference between House and Senate leaders, and the deal with Sensenbrenner, when he withdrew his portion of the intelligence reform bill, was that it would be attached to a must-pass piece of legislation. That has been turned on its ear?

HENRY: Well, the Senate leaders don't feel that they are party to that deal. The House Republican leaders feel that Sensenbrenner is a member of the House, they certainly are on board for that.

And, as you know, they are planning to merge it with the Iraq funding bill. Senate leaders so far are not making that commitment. In fact, they're not even committing to bringing it up this year, as you heard Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist.

So it's yet another roadblock, Lou.

DOBBS: And it has all the appearance, frankly, and I think we should be straightforward about this, this looks like pure political gamesmanship, if not outright duplicity, on the partnership of the leadership in Congress.

HENRY: It's a very thorny issue. In fact, we've heard from multiple sources that, at the recent Republican retreat between the White House and House and Senate Republican leaders, this was a very thorny issue.

Now Tom DeLay insisted today that he felt some common ground was getting closer at that retreat. But we've heard from others that there are still very deep divisions, Lou, over immigration within that Republican Party.

DOBBS: And some considerable division as well within the Democratic Party.

Ed Henry.

Thank you very much.

Ed Henry will be following, of course, this story as will we all here as the year progresses.

Thank you.

Ed Henry from Capitol Hill.

The president's budget for 2006 eliminates federal funding that helps states cover the cost of keep illegal aliens in prison. Critics of President Bush's decision say it is time for the federal government to take responsibility for our national immigration policy. Imagine that possibility.

Casey Wian reports from Los Angeles.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Nearly one-quarter of the inmates in Los Angeles County jails are illegal aliens. The county spends between $70 million and $100 million a year jailing them for crimes other than immigration law violations.

Last year, the federal government paid $13 million to help cover those costs in Los Angeles, $300 million nationally. But the State Criminal Alien Assistance Program, or SCAAP, is on the president's budget-cutting block. He wants to eliminate the program, leaving local governments like Los Angeles County to foot the entire bill for illegal alien incarceration.

SHERIFF LEE BACA, LOS ANGELES COUNTY: It is a reimbursement practice that is very necessary to cover the costs that the federal government should cover. All the people that come to the jails come there because they have, in effect, entered the country illegally, thanks to the somewhat situational ineptitude of the federal government to protect its borders.

WIAN: The sheriff is trying to do his part. He's persuaded county supervisors to allow Immigration and Customs Enforcement officers to train his jail staff to identify illegal alien convicts and turn them over to immigration officials.

Some in Congress want more assistance from the federal government and are demanding SCAAP funding be increased, not eliminated. Senator Dianne Feinstein and a dozen mostly border state lawmakers are pushing for $5.5 billion over the next six years.

SEN. DIANNE FEINSTEIN (D), CALIFORNIA: Well, this is one biggest unfunded mandates of them all. The president -- rather than giving 2,000 Border Control agents, the president's budget contains funding for 200. That is just a kind of major loophole in our borders.

WIAN: The president's budget says SCAAP is being cut because it amounts to revenue-sharing, bit assistance targeted to a particular need. Border state senators say federal help paying the billion dollars a year it costs to jail illegal aliens is a desperate need.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WIAN: This drama has paid out in each of the past three years with the White House first cutting the funds, then Congress restoring some of them. Local law-enforcement officials say they're tired of the act and tired of paying for the consequences of the federal government's failure to control the nation's borders -- Lou.

DOBBS: Well, a lot of people are getting tired of that act. It is, of course, a number of acts in this play. The fact is not only is Senator Dianne Feinstein leading the way to introducing legislation to reintroduce that money to help out the states, but the fact is President Bush, when he was governor of the State of Texas, was all for that program when he was responsible for a border state.

So our immigration policies in this country, Casey, as you've reported extensively here, an absolute disaster. Our border security all but nonexistent.

Casey Wian reporting from Los Angeles.

Thank you, sir.

We'll much have more on the immigration crisis in this country later. I'll be talking with Senator John Cornyn, who supports the president's plan to legalize millions of illegal aliens, and Congressman Lincoln Davis, who is one of only two Democrats to cosponsor new legislation that would prevent illegal aliens from obtaining driver's licenses.

And that brings us to the subject of our poll tonight. Who should bear the cost of jailing criminal illegal aliens -- the federal government, state governments or the countries of origin? Cast your vote at loudobbs.com. We'll have the results, of course, later here in the broadcast.

Thousands of people in New Orleans tonight are celebrating Fat Tuesday with beads and beers in hand. The crowds ignored the rainy weather during the 11 parades that rolled through the city. Fat Tuesday, the day before Lent begins, is the earliest it's been in 15 years, by the way.

Another pre-Lenten celebration in Rio de Janeiro, Brazil, where some 65,000 people gathered for the second night of the samba parade during Carnivale week. The 12-hour event features floats, music, colorful costumes and extraordinarily colorful folks having a very good time.

Next, the escalating battle over the president's budget. I'll be joined by one senator who calls it another shell game from the White House.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ANNOUNCER: LOU DOBBS TONIGHT continues. Here now for more news, debate and opinion, Lou Dobbs.

DOBBS: In just a moment here, one senator on the Budget Committee who talks about why some senators are more concerned with what's not in the president's budget.

But, first, these stories tonight.

The Vatican now responding to questions of whether Pope John Paul II will step down. The Vatican says the pope knows what to do and will make that decision himself. The pope has been hospitalized for the past week with a respiratory infection. Popes can resign, but cannot be forced to step down. There's not been a papal resignation in nearly 600 years.

In Florida today, a frightening emergency landing. The pilot of this twin-engine Cessna reported trouble with the plane's landing gear, flying around for 20 minutes burning fuel and then landing. The plane's right wheel appeared to collapse upon impact. The aircraft landed partly on its belly. And the pilot, doing a remarkable job, brought the plane to a safe standstill. No one was injured.

The senior political strategist who ran President Bush's reelection campaign has been promoted. Karl Rove is now the deputy chief of staff. Rove will continue to oversee political affairs, but he will now be involved in developing international and domestic policy and coordinating all of those policies.

President Bush today challenged Congress to show discipline in the intensifying debate over his $2-1/1 trillion budget for next year. Two of the president's top officials faced tough questioning on Capitol Hill today, as they tried to convince some lawmakers to support the budget.

Elaine Quijano reports from the White House -- Elaine.

ELAINE QUIJANO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, President Bush says taxpayer dollars should be spent wisely or not at all. That was the budget message that he took with him when he spoke at the Detroit Economic Club, a gathering of auto executives and others today.

The president's $2-1/2 trillion budget proposals calls for cutting back or cutting completely some 150 federal programs, programs he says are redundant or not achieving results. Mr. Bush also discussed the centerpiece of his domestic agenda, overhauling Social Security to keep it solvent. The president maintains unless lawmakers act soon, the system will run out of money in the year 2042.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: If you see a train wreck coming, you ought to be saying what are you going to do about it, Mr. Congressman or Madam Congressman. Are you going to sit there and let the train run over younger workers, or are you going to act? I'm calling upon the Congress to act.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

QUIJANO: On Capitol Hill, Bush administration officials defended the president's budget as well as his ideas on Social Security. Treasury Secretary John Snow, as well as Office of Management and Budget Director Josh Bolten, appearing before lawmakers today.

They reiterated the president's belief that the solution to saving Social Security lies in part in voluntary private accounts, but Democrats vehemently oppose the idea, saying it would mean cutting benefits and would not provide a long-term fix.

SEN. MAX BAUCUS (D), MONTANA: The president has fanned the fears of America's younger workers, has argued that we need to do something immediately to eliminate the long-term insolvency of the Social Security system. But what he has announced so far does not get us one dime closer to solving the problem. What he has proposed thus far would actually make the problem worse.

QUIJANO: Now the president will be traveling to North Carolina and Pennsylvania later this week to try and push his ideas again on Social Security. But even some lawmakers within the president's party, some Republicans, have expressed reservations about the transition costs. President Bush's answer to that, he is open to all ideas, with the exception of raising payroll taxes -- Lou.

DOBBS: Elaine, thank you very much, Elaine Quijano from the White House.

My guest tonight is a member of the Senate Budget Committee who says President Bush's budget is full of wrong choices. She says we need to be more concerned with investing in the things that keep America strong. Joining me now from Washington, D.C., is Senator Debbie Stabenow.

Good to have you with us, Senator.

SEN. DEBBIE STABENOW (D-MI), SENATE BUDGET CMTE.: Well, good evening, Lou.

DOBBS: The budget, is it, as has been the case in so many budgets over the past decade, at least, basically dead on arrival?

STABENOW: Well, Lou, what's most important is to look at not only what's in the budget but what isn't in the budget. And to also put it in context, if we take out defense, you could basically eliminate every penny of non-defense discretionary spending, education, research, environmental protection, health care programs, and you would equal the national debt this year.

So we can't just talk about what is in this budget. We have to talk about what's not in this budget: the cost of the war, the $2 trillion that the president says he wants to spend on Social Security privatization, some of his tax plans.

And as you said, this is really about values and priorities, and when you look at this budget, one out of three of the programs he wants to cut is education, educating or children, investing in workers. And when we look at things like the Manufacturing Extension Partnership, which helps small- and medium-sized businesses compete, they want to cut that by 57 percent and eliminate the Advanced Technology Program, which has helped us create new technology. So it really just doesn't add up and it doesn't make sense.

DOBBS: And also cutting the trade adjustment for firms as well.

STABENOW: Absolutely.

DOBBS: The host of things, as we move into what is in that budget, Senator, the fact is we're talking about cutting -- the president is talking about cutting $6 billion in farm subsidies, talking about rolling back $1 billion in food stamps. The impetus for this, is, as always, it's a bit of a kabuki dance, I think you would agree, as the president holds forth this budget.

But it is Congress after all that sets the budget. And what is the message here? We're going to be treated to this back and forth between both parties and apparently between members of the president's own party on much of the budget. What is this process all about? Where does it lead, because the experience has been the last time -- the last budget by President Bush, he said we're going to cut 65 programs, they cut four?

He proposes cutting 150 programs this time, how many do you think will actually get cut?

STABENOW: Well, again, you could cut every single non-defense program and not cut this deficit. So what we're going to be talking about is what are the critical investments? And you're right, there are major disagreements with the president about what invests in the economy for the future.

But also I think, and as a member of the budget committee, I'm going to talk about the fact that four and a half years ago we had the largest budget surplus in the history of the country. And predominantly because of the president's policies we have the largest deficit in the history of the country, the largest trade deficit in the history of the country.

And you know, the president was in my home state today, and I welcome that, but I have to tell you, if he wants to talk about a train wreck, let's talk about the number of jobs being exported overseas as you talk about so well. Let's talk about the explosion in health care costs affecting every business and every individual in my state.

DOBBS: The idea that this budget process could go forward, the president talking about Social Security, an issue 42 -- basically 37 years out, if we accept the most recent projection, Social Security has been moved to the top of the president's agenda.

There seem to be so many other looming issues that would, one think -- one would think, excite our elected officials in Washington, like the fact that we have no border security, like the fact we have a $4 trillion external trade debt, a $6 billion trade deficit, a dollar that is threatened on all quarters.

When in the world are we going to see a response on the basic and fundamental issues? This president talks about education, Senator, as you well know, but where is the investment?

STABENOW: Lou, I could not agree more. I mean, we all know, Democrats and Republicans know that we need to make some changes. And we can make small changes now that four or five decades from now have big results in Social Security. And we're all prepared to come together to do that.

We know that privatization doesn't help at all, so I hope we get that off the table. But then you're absolutely right. I sit on the Banking Committee. And we have been asking the Treasury secretary to certify that China manipulates their currency.

Right now, in fact, China is selling five times more goods to us than we're selling them and they cost less artificially and that's costing jobs in Michigan. It means my manufacturers don't have a level playing field. It costs them more to sell to China.

Right now, if we're talking again about a sense of urgency -- and we need to address Social Security and we will, but right now what I'm most concerned about the jobs leaving today in Michigan while the president's there, or the folks that are getting double-digit increases in their health care costs. My state is being overwhelmed with Medicaid costs.

And so we have a lot that we need to work on together, and I'm fully prepared as a member of the Budget Committee and the Banking Committee, as are my Democratic colleagues, to work with the president on those things that will allow us to generate the economic activity and the quality of life we all want.

DOBBS: Senator, as you say, the state of Michigan suffering, along with the state of Ohio, some of the most severe pain, but the fact is that wages are stagnant across the country, the assault on the middle class is a national issue as you well know and are dealing with. We thank you very much. Senator Debbie Stabenow, thank you for being here.

STABENOW: Thank you.

DOBBS: Taking a look at some of your thoughts on this issue of "Broken Borders."

Sheryl in Arvada, Colorado: "I am dumbfounded by the lack of interest and inaction on illegal immigration. How can we consider ourselves even remotely secure with 3 million unidentified persons flooding into our country in just one year?"

Thomas Sparrow in Auburn, Alabama: "This is such a silent invasion into our great country and we need to have our political leaders finally take ownership of this issue and do something about it instead of being so worried about the Mexico/Latino vote. They would probably find out that most Mexicans/Latinos who immigrated legally would like to close the borders to illegal immigration, just as much as natural born Americans."

Pati in Van Wert, Ohio: "I am insulted and outraged to think that are administration believes that hiring 210 new Border Patrol guards would even be a drop in the bucket."

James Murphy in North Hills, California: "The budget for border security makes sense only if the president and Congress want to encourage illegal aliens to come here."

And from Dallas, Texas: "Lou, I admire your stance on the need for the formulation of a sensible immigration policy that will work to the advantage of the United States, but unfortunately you're fighting a losing battle. Being an international student myself, i have borne witness to how my fellow colleagues repeatedly flout their visa conditions with impunity, knowing fully well that it would take a miracle for any action whatsoever to be taken against them." Anonymous.

And Bob Yeager in Chestertown, Maryland: "You don't understand the real issue with President Bush. He has a decimal point problem. First it was $35 million for tsunami relief when he meant $350 million. Now it's 210 Border Patrol agents instead of 2,100. I'm afraid to look at what the real budget deficit numbers are."

And well you should be. Send us your thoughts at loudobbs.com.

Next, why our nation's railways could be millions of American lives at risk.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: In our special report tonight, America's security risks, the threat to our nation's railways. Over the past three years the federal government has spent $11 billion on security upgrades for the airline industry, but in that time, very little has been done to improve security for this nation's railways. Lisa Sylvester reports from Washington.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

LISA SYLVESTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): In California, a suicidal man parked his SUV on the tracks causing a train accident that killed 11 people and injured 200. In South Carolina, nine people were killed and an entire town had to be evacuated for eight days when a tanker train crashed releasing a toxic cloud of chlorine.

The two accidents illustrate the vulnerability of the nation's railway system. Critics call trains that transport hazardous materials rolling weapons of mass destruction.

REP. PETER DEFAZIO (D), OREGON: We're inviting an attack and horrible consequences, and I don't want to have another tombstone mentality reaction by the Congress and federal government like after 9/11.

SYLVESTER: Five times more people travel by train than by air, yet the government has spent $11 billion for airport security but only $35 million for rail. According to the National Transportation Safety Board, more than half of the 60,000 rail tank cars transporting toxic materials are not up to standards. The Teamsters Union says some rail yards and tracks are not adequately secured.

RICK INCLIMA, TEAMSTERS RAILWAY CONFERENCE: Some of them have security cameras in place and fencing, others are pretty much wide open and pretty much any Tom, Dick or Harry can walk into a rail yard. It's anybody's guess as to when or if they'll be stopped.

EDWARD HAMBERGER, ASSN. OF AMERICAN RAILROADS: I think we've done a good job of shutting down access to our rail yards. It is impossible to shut down access to 120,000 miles of track around the country but again we have identified 1,308 critical assets. We have plans to protect those as the alert level goes up.

SYLVESTER: The industry has been looking at ways to improve security, including screening bags on passenger trains and tightening security at rail yards. Some cities are taking action on their own. Washington, D.C. city council has temporary banned the transport of hazardous materials through the district.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(on camera): The Transportation Security Administration did not make anyone available for an interview, but two bills have been introduced in Congress this year that call for upgrading Hazmat train cars, increasing the fines and greater federal authority over railroads -- Lou.

DOBBS: Thank you, Lisa Sylvester. Next here, one of only two Democrats who is cosponsoring a bill designed to keep driver's licenses out of the hands of illegal aliens.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: Congress tomorrow begins a debate on legislation to crack down on driver's licenses for illegal aliens. Congressman James Sensenbrenner's proposal has 130 Republican cosponsors, but it has only two Democrats. Congressman Lincoln Davis from Tennessee is one of those. I asked Congressman Davis earlier why he decided to join the effort.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

REP. LINCOLN DAVIS (D-TN), TRANSPORT & INFRASTRUCTURE CMTE.: Well, obviously as I look at the bill and see the content of it I think it is something that we should be doing. Tennessee, for instance, recently we just passed a very strong driver's license bill which previous to that had been pretty well open and there were people coming there from all across this nation to get their driver's license. Now we've actually come into conformity as to what this bill would call for on the national level. And as I observe and travel throughout the district, I hear a lot of people who are concerned about this issue. We talk about Social Security, we talk about deficits, we talk about healthcare, but this issue comes up probably as much or more than any other issue that I talk about. I think my constituents deserve attention to this matter.

DOBBS: It appears there is a tremendous disconnect, Congressman, between the people and our elected officials in Washington. In survey after survey, poll after poll, 70 percent of Americans want real border security, they want real security, not P.R. security. Yet last year 3 million illegal aliens crossed our borders into this country. How is that anyone in Congress can keep a straight face when they suggest that we have national security at heart when that can occur on our borders? DAVIS: I think what the situation is is that in the past when someone came across the border either from the north or the south, they were just coming here at a request of those maybe to actually -- that they needed someone to work. Unfortunately what's happened in the last decade or so, is there's been just an onslaught of individuals crossing the border illegally into this country. We have laws in this country and we ought to be enforcing those laws. I hope this legislation will bring about that activity. And I don't know how folks can be blinded to the fact that that's happening, because it is, and we should make an effort to enforce America's laws.

DOBBS: One of your colleagues, Congresswoman Jane Harman called the Sensenbrenner bill redundant saying that his concerns had been addressed by the intelligence reform legislation. What's your response?

DAVIS: Actually I think when you look at this, it sets in motion and gives guidance to the intel bill. For instance, folks who may come here for asylum to receive admission to this country, we give some pretty strong interviews, and in fact we should be allowed to deport anyone that meets the criteria that would prevent them from coming here. I think the driver's license part of this particular bill is very, very good, gives some instructions. I don't think it is redundant. I think these four particular areas we're talking about on this bill are certainly necessary and will improve our ability to control our borders.

DOBBS: In terms of controlling our borders, President Bush has sent a budget plan to Congress calling for 210 additional border patrol agents. What's your reaction to that?

DAVIS: I'm a farm boy, and if we need five people to haul in hay, we don't take one and just work them to death. If we need five, we get five. We need to increase that number dramatically. We need more planes in the air, we need to protect the borders, and 250 or the small amount that he's asked for certainly will not be adequate and we need to address this issue and I don't think that's doing that.

DOBBS: Congressman Lincoln Davis, we thank you for being with us.

DAVIS: Lou Dobbs, thank you for having me on.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

DOBBS: A reminder now to vote in our poll tonight. Who should bear the cost of jailing criminal illegal aliens? The federal government, state governments or the countries of origin? Cast your vote at loudobbs.com. We'll have the results later here in the broadcast.

Next, one senator who supports giving legal status to millions of illegal aliens. We'll be talking to him next. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) DOBBS: My guest tonight is a vocal supporter of the president's plan to give millions of illegal aliens in this country legal status. Senator John Cornyn of Texas has been appointed chairman of the judiciary subcommittee on immigration, border security and citizenship, joining us tonight from Capitol Hill. Senator, good to have you with us.

SEN. JOHN CORNYN (R), TEXAS: Thank you, Lou.

DOBBS: Let's begin with, if we could, just the basic issue of border security. The estimate that 3 million illegal aliens crossed our borders last year, and I'd like to talk about border security first before going to immigration. Just in terms of border security, that's mind-boggling. It suggests that we have none at all, wouldn't you say?

CORNYN: I agree with you, Lou. Our borders are too porous, and in a post-9/11 world even though we may have ignored it basically since the last amnesty bill that was passed in 1986, which I don't support by the way, we've simply got a mandate now I think from the American people and out of self-defense, we need to secure our borders. We need to know who is coming in and who is leaving and who is in our country and where they are. Unfortunately we don't have that information right now.

DOBBS: We don't have that information, and we simply haven't the manpower to create that information, to gather that information. The president's new budget, Senator, calls for an additional 210 border patrol agents. Is the president trying -- is this administration trying to say that we're just kidding about border security and immigration?

CORNYN: Well, I support a larger number. I think the federal government has for such a long time neglected its responsibilities, but unfortunately that financial burden and the consequences of illegal immigration has fallen on local border communities and on taxpayers' generally when it's a federal responsibility, and so I think the federal government has to step up, including on more border patrol.

DOBBS: And you support, then, Senator Dianne Feinstein's legislation that would bring back the program to help states fund the incarceration of illegal aliens, amongst other things?

CORNYN: Absolutely. We -- you know, here again, living in Texas, being from San Antonio, we see it -- see the issue up close and personal, and unfortunately the federal government here in Washington does not pay attention to the problem like it should, nor fund programs, leaving the burden on local hospitals, local taxpayers and local law enforcement.

DOBBS: President Bush maintains that his guest worker proposal is not amnesty, but nearly everyone that I have talked with, with whom I have spoken, has said it's amnesty by any definition. How do you react? CORNYN: Well, I am opposed to amnesty. What I believe would be amnesty is to say, OK, you're here illegally, you can go ahead and stay here, and by the way, we'll make you an American citizen.

What I proposed is what we call a work and return program, not a work and stay program, but it's part of a larger -- a larger issue, and that is border security, so we know who's coming in our country and when they leave, and we know for purposes of homeland security where people are when they're in our country. But unfortunately we have about 10 million people who are currently here, about 6 million in the workforce, and we couldn't even find them if we wanted to now. We simply don't have the means due to neglect over the last 20 years or so.

DOBBS: Do you think we're about to find the will, Senator Cornyn?

CORNYN: I think in a post-9/11 world we'll find the will to pass some real document integrity legislation, which I support. We've got some programs that are being implemented now, the U.S. visit program, to monitor people when they come in and when they leave, and we simply have to find a way to bring people out of the shadows, and off the cash economy, bring them, I believe, on the tax rolls, and to be able to screen them to make sure that they're not a threat to the American people, and hopefully concentrate our law enforcement resources on the true threat, which is the terrorists.

DOBBS: Senator John Cornyn, we thank you for being here.

CORNYN: Thank you, Lou. Good to be with you.

DOBBS: Thank you.

Well, you might want to check the change in your pockets tonight. You may well have a quarter worth hundreds of dollars. The U.S. Mint produced 453 million Wisconsin quarters last fall. Most of those quarters are of course exactly the same, but a rare few have an extra leaf on the tail side of the coin. That imperfection has increased the value of those quarters substantially. Some coin collectors have already been paid as much as $600 for one of those rare quarters.

Still ahead the results of our poll tonight, a preview of what's ahead tomorrow. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

The results of tonight's poll. 61 percent of you say countries of origin should bear the cost of jailing criminal illegal aliens. 38 percent say the federal government.

Thank for being with us here tonight. Please join us tomorrow. America's security risk, our nuclear power plants could be easy targets for terrorists. And tomorrow as well, why a leading Republican now has concerns about the president's plans for Social Security.

And exporting your child's education to a foreign country just to save a buck. Outsourcing American education tomorrow.

For all of us here, good night from New York. "ANDERSON COOPER 360" is next.

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