Return to Transcripts main page
Lou Dobbs Tonight
Bush Mends Fences with Chirac; Protesters in Lebanon Demand Syria Pull Out; German Chancellor Questions NATO Effectiveness
Aired February 21, 2005 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT for Monday, February 21. Here now for an hour of news, debate and opinion, sitting in for Lou Dobbs, Kitty Pilgrim.
KITTY PILGRIM, HOST: Good evening.
Tonight President Bush and French President Jacques Chirac have declared that their disagreement on Iraq is over. The two leaders met in Brussels after President Bush began a five-day European tour and called for a renewed alliance between the United States and Europe. Well, he also had sharp words for Russian president, Vladimir Putin.
Suzanne Malveaux reports from Brussels.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): President Bush, in the heart of Europe, called for America and its European allies to put aside differences over the Iraq war and to begin a new era of transatlantic unity.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: No temporary debate, no passing disagreement of governments, no power on earth will ever divide us. America and Europe face a moment of consequence and opportunity.
MALVEAUX: But not everyone is buying it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, no, no.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, no, no.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, no, no.
MALVEAUX: Several thousand protesters gathered outside the U.S. embassy in Brussels, urging Mr. Bush to take his message back home.
Setting a more civil tone with Europe and rebuilding Iraq are at the top of Mr. Bush's agenda. To make that point, the president met with one of his harshest critics of the Iraq war, French President Jacques Chirac. Both leaders took pains to convey the rift between them is over.
BUSH: This is my first dinner, since I've been re-elected, on European soil, and it's with Jacques Chirac. And that ought to say something. MALVEAUX: President Bush wants more help in training Iraqi troops and is expected to get it when NATO and European Union officials sit down with Mr. Bush on Tuesday. In return, the president addressed what many Europeans were waiting to hear: an unequivocal commitment from the U.S. on Middle East peace.
BUSH: Our greatest opportunity and immediate goal is peace in the Middle East. A settlement of the conflict between Israelis and Palestinians is now within reach.
MALVEAUX: But Mr. Bush issued stern warnings to those countries he considers emerging threats.
BUSH: The Iranian regime must end its support for terrorism and must not develop nuclear weapons.
MALVEAUX: A shared desire between the allies, but a source of disagreement, as well. The E.U. is in negotiations with Iran to abandon its nuclear ambitions, but the U.S. won't take part in the talks, believing they will bear little fruit.
Mr. Bush also warned Syria it must end its occupation of Lebanon or face growing international isolation, a view not shared by some E.U. members, who believe that offers of trade incentives will entice Syria to cooperate.
Mr. Bush also put his friend, Russian president Vladimir Putin, on notice. The two leaders are scheduled to meet Tuesday. And Mr. Bush said Moscow's backslide in democratic reforms would not be tolerated.
BUSH: The Russian government must renew a commitment to democracy and the rule of law.
MALVEAUX (on camera): Tuesday Mr. Bush underscores that point when he meets with Ukraine's newly elected leader, Viktor Yushchenko, who won only after the initially tainted election results were overturned. Those initial results, supported by Putin.
Suzanne Malveaux, CNN, Brussels.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: The European Union today also calling for Syria to withdraw from Lebanon. President Bush and President Chirac issued a joint statement, calling for the full and immediate implementation of a U.N. resolution that calls on Syrian forces to get out of Lebanon.
Thousands of protesters flooded the streets of Beirut with the same demand, and tonight there is at least some indication that Syria is considering a withdrawal.
Brent Sadler reports from Damascus.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) BRENT SADLER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): In Damascus, President Bashar al-Assad signals a possible change in direction, telling the Arab League Syrian troops will leave Lebanon, giving no timetable.
But in Brussels, the U.S. president levels harsh words at Syria.
BUSH: Our shared commitment to democratic progress is being tested in Lebanon, a once thriving country that now suffers under the influence of an oppressive neighbor.
SADLER: A neighbor still enjoying strong political support in Lebanon, especially from powerful Shia Muslim parties, staunchly pro- Syrian.
In Beirut, a giant image of the Syrian leader overlooks a seafront boulevard, vying for attention with a road named after the assassinated former prime minister.
Street protests have swept through Beirut since Rafik Hariri's murder, demonstrators turning on Syria and, they claim, its puppet government in Beirut. Hariri's death unleashing unpredictable fallout affecting Syria.
AMR MOUSSA, ARAB LEAGUE SECRETARY GENERAL: There's no sense of panic, but there is a sense of determination that serious steps will have to be taken in order to deal with that situation.
SADLER: Syria is already hit by U.S. sanctions, but tougher measures could be imposed, if President Bush and French President Jacques Chirac, a close personal friend of the Hariris, agree that increased economic pressure might pay off.
(on camera) Syria faces dramatic upheaval on its doorstep. Fledgling democracy in Iraq, pro-freedom rallies in Beirut and a chorus of U.S.-led international demands on Syria to pull its troops from Lebanon.
(voice-over) Some 40,000 troops at one time, scaled down to around a third of that number today.
BOUTHEINA SHAABAN, SYRIAN CABINET MINISTER: The issue is not here, is not the troops. The issue is not the assassination of Hariri. The issue is to take Syria and Lebanon into a very unstable and chaotic future.
SADLER: To weaken Syria, argue officials here, and destroy its strategic alliance with Lebanon, two countries technically in a state of war with their powerful neighbor, Israel.
Brent Sadler, CNN, Damascus.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: In Iraq today, three American soldiers were killed in a roadside bombing. The attack in Baghdad wounded eight other soldiers. The military says the soldiers were attending to a soldier wounded in an accident with a civilian vehicle when a bomb went off.
Also today, the Pentagon said an American soldier was killed Saturday by small arms fire in Mosul.
The war in Iraq and other developments in the Middle East have raised new questions about the relevance and the future of NATO. German Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder is now among those calling for a new role for the alliance.
Robin Oakley reports from Brussels.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ROBIN OAKLEY, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Leopards, it seems, can change their spots. Not so long ago, U.S. Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld was angering European allies by dividing them into old and new Europe. New Europe, of course, was the part which lined up with the U.S. On Iraq.
Now, the U.S. and E.U. are keen to put their divisions behind them. So in Germany last weekend, he turned that into a joke against himself.
DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: Oh, that was old Rumsfeld.
OAKLEY: But are either the Europeans or the U.S. getting what they want from NATO? The U.S. has been disappointed NATO hasn't done more to help in Iraq.
MARK JOYCE, ROYAL UNITED SERVICES INSTITUTE: The position that NATO took was that they would perform the minimum possible role in -- in Iraq for which they could get some form of political consensus within the alliance. And that turned out to be the training of Iraqi security forces. Now what this has amounted to in practice has been very little.
OAKLEY: But America is reluctant to let go of NATO and see the Europeans create an alternative.
JOYCE: What the Americans fear is that the Europeans will create a defense capability that operates independent of NATO and could eventually emerge as a competitor to the United States.
OAKLEY: So it couldn't have helped the new conciliatory mood that last weekend German Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder said in a speech read out for him, because he had the flu, that NATO was outdated and needed to be revamped. It is, he said, "no longer the primary venue whether transatlantic partners discuss and coordinate strategies."
VICTIM BULMER-THOMAS, ROYAL INSTITUTE OF INTERNATIONAL AFFAIRS: In one sense, Chancellor Schroeder is absolutely right. I think everybody knows that there's a big problem with NATO.
His timing was awful. His failure to warn the Americans in advance, let alone his European partners, that he was going to do this, wasn't good.
OAKLEY (on camera): Analysts agree, NATO isn't currently the right place to discussing transatlantic differences on Iran, on Syria, on the E.U.'s ending of the arms embargo to China. But no one seems quite sure of the right way to address these issues.
The U.S. patently prefers these days to trust coalitions of the willing. Europeans feel they're only offered partnerships in agendas the U.S. has already set. So in that case, what is the alliance's future? His fellow leaders will be eager to hear the president's answer.
Robin Oakley, CNN, Brussels.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: In the Middle East, Israel today set free 500 Palestinian prisoners. Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon ordered the release after he and Palestinian leader Mahmoud Abbas declared a truce two weeks ago at a summit in Egypt.
The release was Israel's largest in nearly a decade. It came just a day after Sharon won cabinet approval for his plan to begin a historic Israeli withdrawal from the West Bank.
Next, an exclusive report on secret negotiations between the United States and Iraqi insurgents. I'll talk to a "TIME" magazine reporter who broke the story, next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PILGRIM: A new exclusive report in "TIME" magazine reveals the United States is negotiating with insurgents in Iraq. Now, many of those insurgents are former members of Saddam Hussein's Ba'athist regime.
Michael Ware reported the story in the latest issue of "TIME" magazine. Ware is "TIME" magazine's Baghdad bureau chief. And I spoke with him a few minutes ago and asked how he first learned of the negotiations between the United States and the insurgents.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MICHAEL WARE, "TIME": This discussion came to me through the insurgents themselves. Since last summer, I've been tracking some new political developments among the nationalist insurgents. These are the former Ba'athists, the members of Saddam's military, his intelligence service, the Mukhabarat, who now consider themselves nationalist fighters. At that time, they started to come together in ad hoc meetings and conferences trying to gel together a common political platform.
PILGRIM: Who's on the other side? Who's on the other side of the negotiating table from these former Ba'athists?
WARE: Well, the Pentagon -- senior officials in the Pentagon say it's direct, it's being conducted, as they say, diplomats and military intelligence officers. That certainly fits with the Americans that I've spoken with, including one military officer who is actually been in one of these meetings, sitting face to face.
PILGRIM: Where are the Iraqis in this? And shouldn't they be?
WARE: Well, this is one of the stipulations. The first and most important stipulation of the U.S. embassy, of the diplomats, as a very, very senior embassy official told me, that they're telling the insurgents and the insurgents' intermediaries that any deal, any real substantive discussion must be done in consultation with the Iraqi government.
They stressed to me over and over, and I know they've told the insurgents this, that the American government has no standing to broker any arrangement. That must be done by the sovereign democratic government of Iraq.
However, the American strategy is to encourage the insurgents through this policy of engagement to have these conversations with the Iraqi government. While at the same time, as the diplomats told me, to encourage the Iraqi government to sit at the table as well.
PILGRIM: Isn't -- there are insurgents and insurgents, correct? That there are certain groups that are involved and certain groups who are not involved. And tell us about the divide and conquer strategy that you think is going on here.
WARE: Well, certainly from the summer of 2003, with the bombing of the Jordanian embassy in Baghdad, we have seen a two-track war in Iraq. One is a terrorist war marked by the high-profile, symbolic mass impact strikes such as the suicide bombings.
The other war, that's the day to day, that's the bulk of the attacks, is the guerrilla insurgency. That's the explosive devices by the side of the road for U.S. convoys, the mortars, the shells, the small arms fire ambushes.
This is being down by the ex-Ba'athists, by the former military officers. So these are two entirely different facets to the fight.
Now, both these groupings have entirely different agendas. The jihadi, the al Qaeda-backed, al Qaeda-inspired Islamic militants, want to fight the infidel west and they want to create an Islamic state.
The former Ba'athists, the military men, they don't want that. They want a political rejigging of the landscape. As they told me, their vision is for a secular democracy, just not a democracy led, as it is now, by what they say are men who are still under the influence and power of foreign interests, specifically Iran.
So they're entirely different groups. And the embassy says the aim is to split this marriage of convenience, bring about a divorce.
PILGRIM: This political solution, do you see it working with these groups that can maybe be brought into the political process? WARE: Well, as the senior diplomats were saying to me, this is going to be a very long road. And we've learned this from past experience in other theaters. Yet, the diplomats seem to be of the view now, and also senior U.S. military commanders that I deal with in Baghdad, that this fight can no longer be won militarily.
We can't defeat them in a classic military sense, so we need broader strategies. So the American military, the U.S. government, is looking at a more holistic approach. As the diplomats say, this is going to take a political solution. So we're looking at a policy of fight and negotiate.
PILGRIM: Thank you very much for joining us, Michael Ware. Thank you, Michael.
WARE: My pleasure. Thank you, Kitty.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: That brings us to the subject of tonight's poll. Do you believe the United States should negotiate with insurgents in Iraq, yes or no? Cast your vote at loudobbs.com and we'll bring you the results a little bit later in the show.
Ahead, deadly storms sweep across the western United States. And they are not over yet.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PILGRIM: Deadly storms are battering the West Coast tonight. Officials confirm at least three people have been killed, thousands without power. More rain is expected.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM (voice-over): Deadly rockslides and mudslides, houses precariously perched. A 30-foot-deep sinkhole that also claimed a life.
MAYOR JIM HAHN, LOS ANGELES: It's going to be a dangerous situation for awhile. We're obviously not out of the woods yet. And the rain's going to continue to fall. We certainly urge everybody, if you don't need to be out on the roads today, please stay home.
PILGRIM: In Palm Springs, swift-water rescue workers saved a 65- year-old driver from floodwaters. In Hacienda Heights, three people are pulled from a townhouse filling with mud. Unrelenting weather causing people to evacuate their homes in southern California.
LEO SARGUETA, RESIDENT: We were asked to leave, and, you know, about 20 minutes, with all that debris coming down, the trees coming down, the fire department said, "You need to get out now."
PILGRIM: Sixteen thousand homes in California without power. Landslide advisories have been posted in eight Los Angeles counties. The storms brought two small tornadoes over the weekend, a rare occurrence in southern California.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was pretty scary and loud, yes. I can understand the people back East, what they go through. That's pretty hairy.
PILGRIM: More than six inches of rain has drenched an already soggy Los Angeles this holiday weekend. And a low-pressure system off the coast threatens to bring more rain and fierce thunderstorms to the area.
In the mountains, heavy snow was welcomed. Twenty inches of snow was dumped on the Lake Tahoe ski resort just in time for one of the busiest weekends of the season. And on the East Coast, a slushy mess did have its moments. In New York's Central Park, The Gates exhibit was ablaze against a winter storm that was blanketed the Northeast.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: Meteorologist Jacqui Jeras is at the CNN Weather Center with the very latest on where the storms on the East and the West Coasts are headed next.
JACQUI JERAS, CNN METEOROLOGIST: At this hour, the rain and the snow continues to come down across the West. The swirl in the clouds you can see here, this is our upper-level low, and it's been sitting here for about a week now, moving very, very slowly. And we still have another couple of days before this moves inland.
So, in the meantime, the strong moisture feed pushes into southern California, and that will be the focus of the worst of the weather. Rainfall amounts just through tomorrow morning on the range of one to three inches in the coastal areas. You get up into the higher elevations, the rain may be three to six inches, and the snowfall also will be extremely level. Those snow levels are going to be dropping down to about 5,000 feet for tonight.
These are some of the rainfall totals since Thursday. More than 17 inches at Opids Camp. Rose Valley, about 11 inches there.
Into Beverly Hills, pushing seven inches. More than six in downtown L.A. And that now officially makes this the fifth wettest season on record.
La Conchita, of course, already had problems last go-around in January, about 3.75 inches of rainfall. So very unstable conditions will continue for today and into tomorrow.
Winter storm warnings in effect, especially across the southern Sierra, and then into the Los Angeles and Ventura County mountains. Mountain High in the San Gabriel Mountains since Thursday has seen anywhere between 49 and 78 inches of snowfall, and another couple of feet will likely fall on top of that between now and tomorrow night.
There's that storm system offshore. This will eventually move into the four corners. And Wednesday looks like our biggest break across parts of the West. We also have some rain and snow to talk about into the East. Slight risk of severe in the Southeast for today. And these are snowfall totals from the Northeast. On average, we've seen anywhere between three and eight inches of snowfall.
So the coasts of the country getting hit very hard today and tomorrow as well.
Kitty, back to you.
PILGRIM: Jacqui Jeras, thank you.
Well, the rain is desperately need in the western states. This region has been in a severe drought for nearly seven years. Heavy rain and snow this winter have eased the drought condition somewhat. The National Weather Service reports some "limited improvement."
Now, much of the country is still suffering from severe drought conditions, but California has seen noticeable improvement from November, when most of the state was in a drought, to the most recent report, which shows most of the state out of drought conditions. And that's not including the current rainfall.
Up next, a leading expert says the president's trip to Europe is a tremendous opportunity to challenge France and Germany.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PILGRIM: In a moment, more on the president's call today for transatlantic unity. First, these important stories.
Let's start with the Centers for Disease Control and prevention. It says the world may be on the brink of a bird flu epidemic. Dr. Julie Gerberding says it's highly likely the bird flu will mutate into a strain that can be transferred from person to person. Right now that flu is transmitted through chickens and other poultry.
In Mississippi, two workers at a Northrop Grumman shipyard critically injured after a disgruntled employee allegedly opened fire there today. The suspect is in custody. Northrop Grumman Ship Systems is the largest private employer in Mississippi, with more than 12,000 workers.
And former presidents George Bush and Bill Clinton tonight have concluded a tour of areas devastated by the December tsunamis. They spent the past three days visiting the coasts of Indonesia, Thailand and Sri Lanka. The ex-presidents were appointed by President Bush to head up a fund-raising effort for the region, where nearly 175,000 people were killed.
Well, let's return now to our top story. President Bush, traveling in Europe today, called for a new era of transatlantic unity. I'm now joined by a leading expert on international relations. Nile Gardiner is a fellow at the Heritage Foundation, and he joins us from Washington.
And thanks very much for being with us, Nile.
NILE GARDINER, HERITAGE FOUNDATION: It's a pleasure. Thank you.
PILGRIM: The effort to mend fences, do you think it will be successful?
GARDINER: Well, I think certainly President Bush's Europe is a step in the right direction. He is sending a very clear message that the White House greatly values the transatlantic alliance and that President Bush will be making Europe a foreign policy priority in the course of the next four years.
However, under the surface, there are certainly major underlying tensions over Iran, Syria, the China arms embargo, trade issues, the Kyoto Protocol, for example, so certainly I think behind the scenes I think there's likely to be a series of very tough negotiations between President Bush and various European leaders.
PILGRIM: We did see today a potentially hopeful sign in that President Bush and Jacques Chirac issued a joint statement on Lebanon. What do you make of that?
GARDINER: Well, certainly it's progress in the right direction. And I'm glad to see the French are starting to back at least one major U.S. foreign policy initiative.
However, I think that the relationship between Paris and Washington will remain extremely tense over the next four years. There are major foreign policy differences between the White House and the French government.
I think also President Bush will be looking in particular for the French to step up to the plate with regard to Iraq, also with regard to the situation in Iran. There's no evidence whatsoever at the moment frankly that the French are willing to compromise on many of the key issues facing both Washington and Paris at this time. So I would expect to see a continuing tense relationship between President Bush and Jacques Chirac over the next four years.
PILGRIM: It certainly seems in Iraq that once elections have been achieved, that it's now time for European participation. Is there any justifiable excuse for not getting involved at this point as this country tries to build its democracy?
GARDINER: That's a very good point. And we still have unfortunately France and Germany sulking on the sidelines, while the Iraqi people have voted in overwhelming numbers to create a successful democratic society. And certainly the president will be laying down the gauntlet to both Paris and Berlin over the next few days, urging both countries to put aside past differences to support, for example, a major NATO role in Iraq in order to train the Iraqi security forces.
Also, President Bush will be looking for a greater degree of European Union support for U.S. and British initiatives in Iraq, and hopefully we will see some movement with regard to that area. PILGRIM: Let's talk about Russia for a second, and we did see President Bush being very strong about Russia, saying they had to renew their commitment to democracy. These are very strong words. How might Russia take this? And is this advisable at this time?
GARDINER: Well, I think certainly President Bush will be urging privately Vladimir Putin to make major steps towards advancing democracy and freedom, both inside Russia and in the near abroad.
However, I think that there will remain major differences in terms of ideology between President Bush and Vladimir Putin. The Russians of course remain a major problem on the world stage in many respects. They are, for example, backing the Iranian regime to a great degree, and so I think that President Bush will be certainly diplomatic in public. However, the message from the White House will be very clear -- for the Russians to start to clean up their act domestically, and also to refrain from backing dangerous rogue regimes such as Iran.
PILGRIM: Let's talk about Iran for a second now. And we are a little bit isolated from our European allies on this, in that the Europeans do want to negotiate -- President Bush referred to the early stages of diplomacy -- but in fact we have not been actively participating in that effort. Russia in fact even more involved in a sort of a business way, with Iran. So how can we reconcile these differences and still maintain a hard-line posture with Iran? Do you think that the United States will have to shift, or will the Europeans?
GARDINER: I think certainly the United States should be willing to engage the European Union to a greater degree with regard to the Iranian situation. However, in return, it is vitally important that Brussels and the European Union as a whole agree to the principle of applying E.U. and Security Council sanctions against the Iranian regime if they refuse to comply with requests to disarm. At the same time also, I think it's vitally important the E.U. big three -- France, Germany and Britain -- agree to the principle of ultimately supporting the use of force to disarm an nuclear-armed Iran if the Iranians refuse to comply.
Unless we see movement from the European Union with regard to those two major areas, I don't think it's likely that we will see the United States engaging in any long-term negotiation alongside the E.U. with regard to the Iranian regime.
PILGRIM: Let's talk about the other great threat in the world, and that's North Korea. Will President Bush be able to get our allies to present a united front on the North Korean issue?
GARDINER: I think with regard to North Korea, there certainly is greater scope of cooperation between the United States and Europe. Certainly the U.S. has succeeded in generating a large international coalition, pushing forward disarmament in Pyongyang, so I would remain rather more optimistic in terms of the outlook for U.S.-European cooperation with regard to North Korea.
PILGRIM: All right, thank you very much. Nile Gardiner, thank you.
GARDINER: Thank you.
PILGRIM: Perhaps the best evident that Presidents Bush and Chirac have settled their differences over Iraq came on their dinner menu tonight. They ate french fries. Now, you may remember Congress reacted to France's opposition to the war by renaming Capitol Hill french fries freedom fries. Well, in addition, Air Force One served freedom toast instead of french toast. The White House says President Bush and Chirac had one of their best meetings ever. They laughed and talked for two and a half hours -- that was an hour longer than planned.
Well, back in this country, three million illegal aliens crossed our southern border last year, and yet Mexican government officials are encouraging more of their citizens to come to this country illegally. They're offering detailed information on how and where to cross our borders. Casey Wian reports from Los Angeles.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): First there was the Mexican migrant guide, the comic book produced by the Mexican federal government that gives tips on how to stay alive while crossing the United States border. Now, the state of Yucatan in southern Mexico is producing its own guide, with even more help for illegal aliens. The 90-page pocket-sized booklet even comes with its own DVD.
Unlike the federal government's guide, "The Guida del Migrante Yucateco (ph)" does provide information on how to apply for a legal U.S. visa and work perform, but most of its pages are clearly written for illegal border crossers.
RICK OLTMAN, FED. FOR AMERICAN IMMIGRATION REFORM: The state of Yucatan are now trying to enter the great remittance sweepstakes and get their share of the money that flows back into Mexico each year, which is now -- it has increased 23 percent last year over the previous year. It's up to $16 billion a year. So this would appear to be an encouragement for Yucatecos to move to the United States, and of course send the money back.
WIAN: Only a relative handful of Yucatecos live in the United States, and the state receives less than one-tenth of 1 percent of the total money sent home by Mexican nationals. But the guide appears designed to change that, by showing potential immigrants where most Yucatecos live in the United States, offering detailed information about alien-smuggling routes in California, Arizona and Texas, and showing where water tanks are located in the desert.
Two pages are devoted to Mexico's controversial matricular consular identification card. They explain how it can lead to a bank account, public services and a driver's licenses in some U.S. states.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
WIAN: The publisher of the guide says it's part of a rethinking of the state of Yucatan's future. Apparently that future includes more of its citizens crossing the U.S. border illegally -- Kitty.
PILGRIM: All right, thanks very much, Casey Wian.
Let's look at some of your thoughts on the threat from China.
Bob in Norfolk, Virginia writes: "When will Americans wake up? The majority of Americans feel we are not prepared to deal with the threat from China. What then are they thinking as they shop in the aisles of Wal-Mart?"
And Stephen of Oceanside, California: "If America is so worried about China's military buildup, then maybe America should rethink America's trade policy with China."
Lenny of Naperville, Illinois: "As someone who has lost his job to China, I've been appalled that our government thinks nothing of exporting our wealth, technology and our middle class. I've already stopped shopping at Wal-Mart, despite not having a job. The extra expense is worth keeping an American family fed, warm and safe."
Ricardo of Miami, Florida: "Immigration from Mexico affects not only our security, but also the quality of our life. It also puts a lot of pressure on our social programs. I think the majority of Hispanics who are U.S. citizens (like myself) think the same way."
And Penny Weidman of Michigan: "If we treat our homes like we do our borders, we may as well take the doors off our houses."
We love hearing from you. E-mail us at loudobbs@cnn.com.
Now, a reminder to vote in tonight's poll. Do you believe the United States should negotiate with insurgents in Iraq? Yes or no? Cast your vote at loudobbs.com. We'll bring you the results in just a few minutes here.
Next, why hospitals are not using new technologies that could save thousands of lives each year.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PILGRIM: The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention tonight is trying to raise awareness about diagnosing autism. The CDC is launching a campaign on the importance of early detection called "learn the signs, act early." This new campaign is aimed at educating doctors and parents about early childhood development and the symptoms of the disorder. The CDC says treating developmental disabilities early can improve a child's future. Half of all children with autism or similar disorders aren't diagnosed until they're at least 4 years old, but they can be diagnosed as early as 18 months.
Well, new medical technology can coordinate detailed information about a patient in a central database, and that service helps doctors create a more complete medical history. Some estimate that could save up to 100,000 lives every year, but the cost of the system is preventing many hospitals from taking part.
Bill Tucker reports from Boston.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BILL TUCKER CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): This is not your grandfather's operating room. You're looking at a wire being guided through a patient's heart to clear the arteries. There is no denying technology's advancement in medicine. But when it comes to electronic files and records, most doctors' offices and hospitals still rely on paper. Change is coming. Already many hospitals are spending money to build networks and update their technology. In Massachusetts, one hospital is taking it a step further.
(on camera): Here at Beth Israel Deaconess (ph) Medical Center in Boston, Massachusetts, 35,000 patients are linked to their doctors and there medical records via the Internet.
(voice-over): They use a service called Patientsite.
DR. JOHN HALAMKA, CIO, HARVARD MEDICAL SCHOOL: Patientsite gives physicians and patients a shared medical record. The patients can see everything the doctors could see. They can send secure messages to their doctor, make appointments, renew prescriptions, even pay their bills on-line.
TUCKER: Jerilyn Heinold, uses Patientsite, and it helped her avoid a misdiagnosis.
JERILYN HEINOLD, PATIENTSITE USER: I think that, again, we have to move away from the parent-child philosophy of healthcare into the partnership of healthcare. And technology is the tool that you need to have the most information you can when trying to determine what the best kind of healthcare is for you.
TUCKER: But technology is expensive, $30 million for a typical hospital to institute electronic record keeping. Studies show that 89 percent of the cost benefit from such systems go to insurance companies, which would suggest that they should share in financing those systems. Other problems to overcome include developing a set of standard to allow file-sharing over the Internet. And deciding what role, if any, the federal government role should be. As exciting as technology is, one priority should never be forgotten.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They're things that people are spectacular at -- taking care of others, providing care, touching a patient, helping a kid, giving an injection, but making someone feel OK about it. Computers can't do that, people can.
TUCKER: Bill Tucker, CNN, Boston, Massachusetts.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: Next, why a population boom could change the political climate in this country.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) PILGRIM: Some interesting trends tonight in the Census Bureau's new population estimates. Shifts in population could affect our nation's political future. Senior political analyst Bill Schneider reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
WILLIAM SCHNEIDER, CNN SR. POLITICAL ANALYST (voice-over): What's the fastest-growing state in the country? Ladies and gentlemen, place your bets. That was a clue, because the answer is Nevada.
DICK CHENEY, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We have a great feeling about Nevada.
SCHNEIDER: Nevada did end up going for Bush and Cheney. Nevada's typical of population trends around the country. Domestic migrants, mostly white, are leaving crowded and expensive coastal cities like Los Angeles, and moving to places in the interior, places like Las Vegas. They tend to vote Republican. Those states are also attracting a lot immigrants, especially Hispanics. They tend to vote Democratic. Eventually, the same thing is happening in the nation's second fastest-growing state, Arizona, right next door to Nevada, also for Bush. Number three in population growth since 2000, a double-Bush state, governor and president.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: On Tuesday, Florida will vote for strong leadership and send me and Dick Cheney back to Washington.
SCHNEIDER: Others states among the fastest-growing since 2000, Texas, Georgia, Idaho, Utah, John Kerry's Colorado? Wait a minute, John Kerry's Colorado. Actually, yes.
SEN. JOHN EDWARDS (D), VICE PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We're so proud to be here with you today. To be here in the birthplace of the cheeseburger, birthplace of the rodeo, and birthplace of the next president of the United States, John Kerry.
SCHNEIDER: Not quite. Colorado voted for Bush. John Edwards' home state of North Carolina was the ninth fastest-growing, but Edwards on the ticket, didn't seem to have much impact. North Carolina voted for Bush.
Can Democrats claim any of the ten fastest-growing states? Yes, number 10.
SEN. JOHN KERRY (D-MA), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: California was founded by prospectors who came out here looking for silver and gold, and I'm following in that tradition tonight.
SCHNEIDER: California is now solidly Democratic -- well, almost. Overall, the red states, the ones that voted for Bush, gained 7.5 million people since 2000. The blue states gained too, but at a slower rate, 4.6 million.
Bill Schneider, CNN, Los Angeles.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: Joining me now, three of the nation's top journalists.
From Boston we have Roger Simon of "U.S. News & World Report."
From Washington, Karen Tumulty of "Time" magazine.
And here in New York, Jim Ellis of "Businessweek."
And whoever said the snow could stop any of us, we managed to do this anyway. Let's start with the Bush trip to Europe. And I'll start with you, Roger. What do you make of this attempt to mend fences, and do you think we'll be able to do it?
ROGER SIMON, "U.S. NEWS & WORLD REPORT: I think George Bush has two goals. The narrow goal, the more immediate goal is to get some help for Iraq. He knows that he's not going to get troops from Europe or large amounts of money, but he wants the European Union to increase its training of Iraqi military and Iraqi police. But the bigger goal is to show Europeans he doesn't have horns growing out of his head, that he's not a wild cowboy willing to plunge the world into war, that he is a mature world leader with a mature world view. He has considerable personal charm, and he might succeed at that.
PILGRIM: The charm offensive seemed to fall a bit short in terms of Russia, in that the president had some pretty harsh words for them supporting democracy. Karen, do you think that maybe it's too harsh, or do you think this is necessary at this time?
KAREN TUMULTY, "TIME" MAGAZINE: Oh, absolutely necessary. If the president's inaugural address is to have any meaning at all, I think that this meeting with Vladimir Putin is going to be the most important and the most interesting moment of the entire week, because of course, the president early on in his presidency announced that he had looked into Vladimir Putin's soul and liked what he had seen.
If his inaugural address and his larger vision about spreading democracy across the planet is to have any meaning at all, one of the first places that he is going to have to start applying any kind of pressure is Russia. And you're absolutely right, his words today were very blunt. And he basically said that if Vladimir Putin thinks that his interests in the future lie West and if he wants to establish any sort of relationship, including getting into the WTO, that he's going to have to share the values and the institutions of the Western world.
PILGRIM: Jim, we were discussing before this show the fact that France and the United States made a joint statement about Syria, which is another twist to this. Whoever thought that they would be issuing joint statements, much less making friends over in Europe. What do you make of the statement that Syria should get out of Lebanon, and the fact that there are protests now about that?
JIM ELLIS, "BUSINESSWEEK": Well, I actually think that it's a positive sign for both, you know, both powers, the United States and France, to get together on this, though I have to admit that the French were behind this already. So it's a rapprochement, but it's something that we basically knew we could get.
I think in this case that it's -- I'm a little worried about just how quickly this -- the show of opposition in Lebanon happened. It almost looks as if it was somewhat staged. As soon as we say that the Syrians have stopped any ability of democracy there, there's a large demonstration that shows the opposition is strong.
I'm a little uncertain about that. I do think, however, that Mr. Bush is starting to realize that there are a lot of things out there -- whether it's Iran and its nuclear aspirations, whether it's China and the prospect that Europe is going to restart selling arms to them -- there's a lot of things out there that he's going to need European help on. So he's got to come to the table now and say, hey, guys, let's get together.
PILGRIM: Let's get Roger in on this, and as Jim points out, a lot of issues, arms sales to China, Kyoto, we have -- we have the International Criminal Court. There are a lot of things we do not see eye-to-eye with the Europeans on. What's your assessment of us being able to bridge that gap?
SIMON: Well, it may be a trade-off. Maybe we're going to trade off France's help in Lebanon, where it has considerable influence and Syria, in return for supporting France's position and much of Europe's position, that we ought to lift the embargo of arms against China, because if we don't sell them arms, China is going to develop its own arms program anyway.
There's always a minimum result guaranteed before any U.S. president goes on a jaunt like this, so he's going to get something out of it. We just don't know how much.
I think the trip is 90 percent cosmetic and symbolic and maybe 10 percent we're going to get some real results.
PILGRIM: Yeah, it's 90 percent cosmetic, but the issues are very real, and in fact, North Korea, Iran, very, very pressing problems. Karen, your thoughts on this?
TUMULTY: Well, you know, Kitty, I think Iran is going to be the real test of this, where we have the Europeans and the United States having very divergent positions. The Europeans wanting to engage in diplomacy with Iran; the United States wanting to impose sanctions.
Now, there is a possible compromise here, which would essentially be a good cop/bad cop routine. Essentially the Europeans agreeing that if in fact diplomacy does fail, that they would sign on to the sanctions. And it will be quite interesting to see whether, by the end of this week, there are some signals that in fact if the two forces disagree, that at least they can settle on some sort of a long- term joint strategy.
PILGRIM: Let's talk about China for a second, because it is a very important issue. The arms sales to China, there was -- there was an embargo put on after Tiananmen Square. Now the Europeans would like to sell arms to China. The United States does not want the arms embargo lifted. Will we be able to get through this issue? Let me start with Jim.
ELLIS: Yeah, I think we'll be able to get through it. I have a feeling it's not going to be to the pleasure of Washington. I actually think that the Europeans have made -- you know, they've made a pretty strong argument, that they would like to continue to engage China, the same way that we are engaging China that used to be part of that sort of evil axis, or evil empire of a few years ago. But I think that they're going to have to do that through things like this. They don't have the economic might -- at least they do collectively, but as individual governments, they don't have the economic might that the United States has in engaging China. And so things like this are big overtures that will push their own agenda, and I think that the president basically has to buy into that.
PILGRIM: The Chinese military buildup is considerable. Is this a cause for worry, Roger?
SIMON: It's always a cause for worry, but right now we have to keep in mind, as Jim says, we're looking upon China as an ally, we need China, and I think the president is going to lose on the subject of arms trade to China, just because whenever there's a dollar to be made, there's a dollar to be made. But more importantly, we need China if we want a solution to North Korea. That is really our main card in dealing with the North Koreans, it is our main hope of getting the North Koreans to renew and re-engage in the six-party talks. And it's not a one-way street. Sure, our trade helps China, but we get something from China in return, and that's a promise to support in a lot of areas of crisis around the world.
PILGRIM: Exactly. We have to cut it there. I'm sorry, Karen, I'll give you the first word next time. My apologies. Karen Tumulty, Roger Simon and Jim Ellis, thank you.
Still ahead, the results of tonight's poll and a preview of what's ahead tomorrow.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PILGRIM: Now the results of tonight's poll. It's pretty evenly split. Forty-nine percent of you believe the United States should negotiate with insurgents in Iraq, and 51 percent do not.
Well, thanks for being with us tonight. Please join us tomorrow. The author of "University, Inc.: The Corporate Corruption of Higher Education." That author will join us.
And then, China cheats. One group is fighting to stop the Chinese from stealing intellectual property.
We'll also have our special report, "Overmedicated Nation." Tomorrow, doctors taking surprising new steps to prevent medical mistakes.
For all of us here, good night from New York. A special edition of "ANDERSON COOPER 360" is next.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired February 21, 2005 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT for Monday, February 21. Here now for an hour of news, debate and opinion, sitting in for Lou Dobbs, Kitty Pilgrim.
KITTY PILGRIM, HOST: Good evening.
Tonight President Bush and French President Jacques Chirac have declared that their disagreement on Iraq is over. The two leaders met in Brussels after President Bush began a five-day European tour and called for a renewed alliance between the United States and Europe. Well, he also had sharp words for Russian president, Vladimir Putin.
Suzanne Malveaux reports from Brussels.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): President Bush, in the heart of Europe, called for America and its European allies to put aside differences over the Iraq war and to begin a new era of transatlantic unity.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: No temporary debate, no passing disagreement of governments, no power on earth will ever divide us. America and Europe face a moment of consequence and opportunity.
MALVEAUX: But not everyone is buying it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, no, no.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, no, no.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, no, no.
MALVEAUX: Several thousand protesters gathered outside the U.S. embassy in Brussels, urging Mr. Bush to take his message back home.
Setting a more civil tone with Europe and rebuilding Iraq are at the top of Mr. Bush's agenda. To make that point, the president met with one of his harshest critics of the Iraq war, French President Jacques Chirac. Both leaders took pains to convey the rift between them is over.
BUSH: This is my first dinner, since I've been re-elected, on European soil, and it's with Jacques Chirac. And that ought to say something. MALVEAUX: President Bush wants more help in training Iraqi troops and is expected to get it when NATO and European Union officials sit down with Mr. Bush on Tuesday. In return, the president addressed what many Europeans were waiting to hear: an unequivocal commitment from the U.S. on Middle East peace.
BUSH: Our greatest opportunity and immediate goal is peace in the Middle East. A settlement of the conflict between Israelis and Palestinians is now within reach.
MALVEAUX: But Mr. Bush issued stern warnings to those countries he considers emerging threats.
BUSH: The Iranian regime must end its support for terrorism and must not develop nuclear weapons.
MALVEAUX: A shared desire between the allies, but a source of disagreement, as well. The E.U. is in negotiations with Iran to abandon its nuclear ambitions, but the U.S. won't take part in the talks, believing they will bear little fruit.
Mr. Bush also warned Syria it must end its occupation of Lebanon or face growing international isolation, a view not shared by some E.U. members, who believe that offers of trade incentives will entice Syria to cooperate.
Mr. Bush also put his friend, Russian president Vladimir Putin, on notice. The two leaders are scheduled to meet Tuesday. And Mr. Bush said Moscow's backslide in democratic reforms would not be tolerated.
BUSH: The Russian government must renew a commitment to democracy and the rule of law.
MALVEAUX (on camera): Tuesday Mr. Bush underscores that point when he meets with Ukraine's newly elected leader, Viktor Yushchenko, who won only after the initially tainted election results were overturned. Those initial results, supported by Putin.
Suzanne Malveaux, CNN, Brussels.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: The European Union today also calling for Syria to withdraw from Lebanon. President Bush and President Chirac issued a joint statement, calling for the full and immediate implementation of a U.N. resolution that calls on Syrian forces to get out of Lebanon.
Thousands of protesters flooded the streets of Beirut with the same demand, and tonight there is at least some indication that Syria is considering a withdrawal.
Brent Sadler reports from Damascus.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) BRENT SADLER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): In Damascus, President Bashar al-Assad signals a possible change in direction, telling the Arab League Syrian troops will leave Lebanon, giving no timetable.
But in Brussels, the U.S. president levels harsh words at Syria.
BUSH: Our shared commitment to democratic progress is being tested in Lebanon, a once thriving country that now suffers under the influence of an oppressive neighbor.
SADLER: A neighbor still enjoying strong political support in Lebanon, especially from powerful Shia Muslim parties, staunchly pro- Syrian.
In Beirut, a giant image of the Syrian leader overlooks a seafront boulevard, vying for attention with a road named after the assassinated former prime minister.
Street protests have swept through Beirut since Rafik Hariri's murder, demonstrators turning on Syria and, they claim, its puppet government in Beirut. Hariri's death unleashing unpredictable fallout affecting Syria.
AMR MOUSSA, ARAB LEAGUE SECRETARY GENERAL: There's no sense of panic, but there is a sense of determination that serious steps will have to be taken in order to deal with that situation.
SADLER: Syria is already hit by U.S. sanctions, but tougher measures could be imposed, if President Bush and French President Jacques Chirac, a close personal friend of the Hariris, agree that increased economic pressure might pay off.
(on camera) Syria faces dramatic upheaval on its doorstep. Fledgling democracy in Iraq, pro-freedom rallies in Beirut and a chorus of U.S.-led international demands on Syria to pull its troops from Lebanon.
(voice-over) Some 40,000 troops at one time, scaled down to around a third of that number today.
BOUTHEINA SHAABAN, SYRIAN CABINET MINISTER: The issue is not here, is not the troops. The issue is not the assassination of Hariri. The issue is to take Syria and Lebanon into a very unstable and chaotic future.
SADLER: To weaken Syria, argue officials here, and destroy its strategic alliance with Lebanon, two countries technically in a state of war with their powerful neighbor, Israel.
Brent Sadler, CNN, Damascus.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: In Iraq today, three American soldiers were killed in a roadside bombing. The attack in Baghdad wounded eight other soldiers. The military says the soldiers were attending to a soldier wounded in an accident with a civilian vehicle when a bomb went off.
Also today, the Pentagon said an American soldier was killed Saturday by small arms fire in Mosul.
The war in Iraq and other developments in the Middle East have raised new questions about the relevance and the future of NATO. German Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder is now among those calling for a new role for the alliance.
Robin Oakley reports from Brussels.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ROBIN OAKLEY, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Leopards, it seems, can change their spots. Not so long ago, U.S. Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld was angering European allies by dividing them into old and new Europe. New Europe, of course, was the part which lined up with the U.S. On Iraq.
Now, the U.S. and E.U. are keen to put their divisions behind them. So in Germany last weekend, he turned that into a joke against himself.
DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: Oh, that was old Rumsfeld.
OAKLEY: But are either the Europeans or the U.S. getting what they want from NATO? The U.S. has been disappointed NATO hasn't done more to help in Iraq.
MARK JOYCE, ROYAL UNITED SERVICES INSTITUTE: The position that NATO took was that they would perform the minimum possible role in -- in Iraq for which they could get some form of political consensus within the alliance. And that turned out to be the training of Iraqi security forces. Now what this has amounted to in practice has been very little.
OAKLEY: But America is reluctant to let go of NATO and see the Europeans create an alternative.
JOYCE: What the Americans fear is that the Europeans will create a defense capability that operates independent of NATO and could eventually emerge as a competitor to the United States.
OAKLEY: So it couldn't have helped the new conciliatory mood that last weekend German Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder said in a speech read out for him, because he had the flu, that NATO was outdated and needed to be revamped. It is, he said, "no longer the primary venue whether transatlantic partners discuss and coordinate strategies."
VICTIM BULMER-THOMAS, ROYAL INSTITUTE OF INTERNATIONAL AFFAIRS: In one sense, Chancellor Schroeder is absolutely right. I think everybody knows that there's a big problem with NATO.
His timing was awful. His failure to warn the Americans in advance, let alone his European partners, that he was going to do this, wasn't good.
OAKLEY (on camera): Analysts agree, NATO isn't currently the right place to discussing transatlantic differences on Iran, on Syria, on the E.U.'s ending of the arms embargo to China. But no one seems quite sure of the right way to address these issues.
The U.S. patently prefers these days to trust coalitions of the willing. Europeans feel they're only offered partnerships in agendas the U.S. has already set. So in that case, what is the alliance's future? His fellow leaders will be eager to hear the president's answer.
Robin Oakley, CNN, Brussels.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: In the Middle East, Israel today set free 500 Palestinian prisoners. Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon ordered the release after he and Palestinian leader Mahmoud Abbas declared a truce two weeks ago at a summit in Egypt.
The release was Israel's largest in nearly a decade. It came just a day after Sharon won cabinet approval for his plan to begin a historic Israeli withdrawal from the West Bank.
Next, an exclusive report on secret negotiations between the United States and Iraqi insurgents. I'll talk to a "TIME" magazine reporter who broke the story, next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PILGRIM: A new exclusive report in "TIME" magazine reveals the United States is negotiating with insurgents in Iraq. Now, many of those insurgents are former members of Saddam Hussein's Ba'athist regime.
Michael Ware reported the story in the latest issue of "TIME" magazine. Ware is "TIME" magazine's Baghdad bureau chief. And I spoke with him a few minutes ago and asked how he first learned of the negotiations between the United States and the insurgents.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MICHAEL WARE, "TIME": This discussion came to me through the insurgents themselves. Since last summer, I've been tracking some new political developments among the nationalist insurgents. These are the former Ba'athists, the members of Saddam's military, his intelligence service, the Mukhabarat, who now consider themselves nationalist fighters. At that time, they started to come together in ad hoc meetings and conferences trying to gel together a common political platform.
PILGRIM: Who's on the other side? Who's on the other side of the negotiating table from these former Ba'athists?
WARE: Well, the Pentagon -- senior officials in the Pentagon say it's direct, it's being conducted, as they say, diplomats and military intelligence officers. That certainly fits with the Americans that I've spoken with, including one military officer who is actually been in one of these meetings, sitting face to face.
PILGRIM: Where are the Iraqis in this? And shouldn't they be?
WARE: Well, this is one of the stipulations. The first and most important stipulation of the U.S. embassy, of the diplomats, as a very, very senior embassy official told me, that they're telling the insurgents and the insurgents' intermediaries that any deal, any real substantive discussion must be done in consultation with the Iraqi government.
They stressed to me over and over, and I know they've told the insurgents this, that the American government has no standing to broker any arrangement. That must be done by the sovereign democratic government of Iraq.
However, the American strategy is to encourage the insurgents through this policy of engagement to have these conversations with the Iraqi government. While at the same time, as the diplomats told me, to encourage the Iraqi government to sit at the table as well.
PILGRIM: Isn't -- there are insurgents and insurgents, correct? That there are certain groups that are involved and certain groups who are not involved. And tell us about the divide and conquer strategy that you think is going on here.
WARE: Well, certainly from the summer of 2003, with the bombing of the Jordanian embassy in Baghdad, we have seen a two-track war in Iraq. One is a terrorist war marked by the high-profile, symbolic mass impact strikes such as the suicide bombings.
The other war, that's the day to day, that's the bulk of the attacks, is the guerrilla insurgency. That's the explosive devices by the side of the road for U.S. convoys, the mortars, the shells, the small arms fire ambushes.
This is being down by the ex-Ba'athists, by the former military officers. So these are two entirely different facets to the fight.
Now, both these groupings have entirely different agendas. The jihadi, the al Qaeda-backed, al Qaeda-inspired Islamic militants, want to fight the infidel west and they want to create an Islamic state.
The former Ba'athists, the military men, they don't want that. They want a political rejigging of the landscape. As they told me, their vision is for a secular democracy, just not a democracy led, as it is now, by what they say are men who are still under the influence and power of foreign interests, specifically Iran.
So they're entirely different groups. And the embassy says the aim is to split this marriage of convenience, bring about a divorce.
PILGRIM: This political solution, do you see it working with these groups that can maybe be brought into the political process? WARE: Well, as the senior diplomats were saying to me, this is going to be a very long road. And we've learned this from past experience in other theaters. Yet, the diplomats seem to be of the view now, and also senior U.S. military commanders that I deal with in Baghdad, that this fight can no longer be won militarily.
We can't defeat them in a classic military sense, so we need broader strategies. So the American military, the U.S. government, is looking at a more holistic approach. As the diplomats say, this is going to take a political solution. So we're looking at a policy of fight and negotiate.
PILGRIM: Thank you very much for joining us, Michael Ware. Thank you, Michael.
WARE: My pleasure. Thank you, Kitty.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: That brings us to the subject of tonight's poll. Do you believe the United States should negotiate with insurgents in Iraq, yes or no? Cast your vote at loudobbs.com and we'll bring you the results a little bit later in the show.
Ahead, deadly storms sweep across the western United States. And they are not over yet.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PILGRIM: Deadly storms are battering the West Coast tonight. Officials confirm at least three people have been killed, thousands without power. More rain is expected.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM (voice-over): Deadly rockslides and mudslides, houses precariously perched. A 30-foot-deep sinkhole that also claimed a life.
MAYOR JIM HAHN, LOS ANGELES: It's going to be a dangerous situation for awhile. We're obviously not out of the woods yet. And the rain's going to continue to fall. We certainly urge everybody, if you don't need to be out on the roads today, please stay home.
PILGRIM: In Palm Springs, swift-water rescue workers saved a 65- year-old driver from floodwaters. In Hacienda Heights, three people are pulled from a townhouse filling with mud. Unrelenting weather causing people to evacuate their homes in southern California.
LEO SARGUETA, RESIDENT: We were asked to leave, and, you know, about 20 minutes, with all that debris coming down, the trees coming down, the fire department said, "You need to get out now."
PILGRIM: Sixteen thousand homes in California without power. Landslide advisories have been posted in eight Los Angeles counties. The storms brought two small tornadoes over the weekend, a rare occurrence in southern California.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was pretty scary and loud, yes. I can understand the people back East, what they go through. That's pretty hairy.
PILGRIM: More than six inches of rain has drenched an already soggy Los Angeles this holiday weekend. And a low-pressure system off the coast threatens to bring more rain and fierce thunderstorms to the area.
In the mountains, heavy snow was welcomed. Twenty inches of snow was dumped on the Lake Tahoe ski resort just in time for one of the busiest weekends of the season. And on the East Coast, a slushy mess did have its moments. In New York's Central Park, The Gates exhibit was ablaze against a winter storm that was blanketed the Northeast.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: Meteorologist Jacqui Jeras is at the CNN Weather Center with the very latest on where the storms on the East and the West Coasts are headed next.
JACQUI JERAS, CNN METEOROLOGIST: At this hour, the rain and the snow continues to come down across the West. The swirl in the clouds you can see here, this is our upper-level low, and it's been sitting here for about a week now, moving very, very slowly. And we still have another couple of days before this moves inland.
So, in the meantime, the strong moisture feed pushes into southern California, and that will be the focus of the worst of the weather. Rainfall amounts just through tomorrow morning on the range of one to three inches in the coastal areas. You get up into the higher elevations, the rain may be three to six inches, and the snowfall also will be extremely level. Those snow levels are going to be dropping down to about 5,000 feet for tonight.
These are some of the rainfall totals since Thursday. More than 17 inches at Opids Camp. Rose Valley, about 11 inches there.
Into Beverly Hills, pushing seven inches. More than six in downtown L.A. And that now officially makes this the fifth wettest season on record.
La Conchita, of course, already had problems last go-around in January, about 3.75 inches of rainfall. So very unstable conditions will continue for today and into tomorrow.
Winter storm warnings in effect, especially across the southern Sierra, and then into the Los Angeles and Ventura County mountains. Mountain High in the San Gabriel Mountains since Thursday has seen anywhere between 49 and 78 inches of snowfall, and another couple of feet will likely fall on top of that between now and tomorrow night.
There's that storm system offshore. This will eventually move into the four corners. And Wednesday looks like our biggest break across parts of the West. We also have some rain and snow to talk about into the East. Slight risk of severe in the Southeast for today. And these are snowfall totals from the Northeast. On average, we've seen anywhere between three and eight inches of snowfall.
So the coasts of the country getting hit very hard today and tomorrow as well.
Kitty, back to you.
PILGRIM: Jacqui Jeras, thank you.
Well, the rain is desperately need in the western states. This region has been in a severe drought for nearly seven years. Heavy rain and snow this winter have eased the drought condition somewhat. The National Weather Service reports some "limited improvement."
Now, much of the country is still suffering from severe drought conditions, but California has seen noticeable improvement from November, when most of the state was in a drought, to the most recent report, which shows most of the state out of drought conditions. And that's not including the current rainfall.
Up next, a leading expert says the president's trip to Europe is a tremendous opportunity to challenge France and Germany.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PILGRIM: In a moment, more on the president's call today for transatlantic unity. First, these important stories.
Let's start with the Centers for Disease Control and prevention. It says the world may be on the brink of a bird flu epidemic. Dr. Julie Gerberding says it's highly likely the bird flu will mutate into a strain that can be transferred from person to person. Right now that flu is transmitted through chickens and other poultry.
In Mississippi, two workers at a Northrop Grumman shipyard critically injured after a disgruntled employee allegedly opened fire there today. The suspect is in custody. Northrop Grumman Ship Systems is the largest private employer in Mississippi, with more than 12,000 workers.
And former presidents George Bush and Bill Clinton tonight have concluded a tour of areas devastated by the December tsunamis. They spent the past three days visiting the coasts of Indonesia, Thailand and Sri Lanka. The ex-presidents were appointed by President Bush to head up a fund-raising effort for the region, where nearly 175,000 people were killed.
Well, let's return now to our top story. President Bush, traveling in Europe today, called for a new era of transatlantic unity. I'm now joined by a leading expert on international relations. Nile Gardiner is a fellow at the Heritage Foundation, and he joins us from Washington.
And thanks very much for being with us, Nile.
NILE GARDINER, HERITAGE FOUNDATION: It's a pleasure. Thank you.
PILGRIM: The effort to mend fences, do you think it will be successful?
GARDINER: Well, I think certainly President Bush's Europe is a step in the right direction. He is sending a very clear message that the White House greatly values the transatlantic alliance and that President Bush will be making Europe a foreign policy priority in the course of the next four years.
However, under the surface, there are certainly major underlying tensions over Iran, Syria, the China arms embargo, trade issues, the Kyoto Protocol, for example, so certainly I think behind the scenes I think there's likely to be a series of very tough negotiations between President Bush and various European leaders.
PILGRIM: We did see today a potentially hopeful sign in that President Bush and Jacques Chirac issued a joint statement on Lebanon. What do you make of that?
GARDINER: Well, certainly it's progress in the right direction. And I'm glad to see the French are starting to back at least one major U.S. foreign policy initiative.
However, I think that the relationship between Paris and Washington will remain extremely tense over the next four years. There are major foreign policy differences between the White House and the French government.
I think also President Bush will be looking in particular for the French to step up to the plate with regard to Iraq, also with regard to the situation in Iran. There's no evidence whatsoever at the moment frankly that the French are willing to compromise on many of the key issues facing both Washington and Paris at this time. So I would expect to see a continuing tense relationship between President Bush and Jacques Chirac over the next four years.
PILGRIM: It certainly seems in Iraq that once elections have been achieved, that it's now time for European participation. Is there any justifiable excuse for not getting involved at this point as this country tries to build its democracy?
GARDINER: That's a very good point. And we still have unfortunately France and Germany sulking on the sidelines, while the Iraqi people have voted in overwhelming numbers to create a successful democratic society. And certainly the president will be laying down the gauntlet to both Paris and Berlin over the next few days, urging both countries to put aside past differences to support, for example, a major NATO role in Iraq in order to train the Iraqi security forces.
Also, President Bush will be looking for a greater degree of European Union support for U.S. and British initiatives in Iraq, and hopefully we will see some movement with regard to that area. PILGRIM: Let's talk about Russia for a second, and we did see President Bush being very strong about Russia, saying they had to renew their commitment to democracy. These are very strong words. How might Russia take this? And is this advisable at this time?
GARDINER: Well, I think certainly President Bush will be urging privately Vladimir Putin to make major steps towards advancing democracy and freedom, both inside Russia and in the near abroad.
However, I think that there will remain major differences in terms of ideology between President Bush and Vladimir Putin. The Russians of course remain a major problem on the world stage in many respects. They are, for example, backing the Iranian regime to a great degree, and so I think that President Bush will be certainly diplomatic in public. However, the message from the White House will be very clear -- for the Russians to start to clean up their act domestically, and also to refrain from backing dangerous rogue regimes such as Iran.
PILGRIM: Let's talk about Iran for a second now. And we are a little bit isolated from our European allies on this, in that the Europeans do want to negotiate -- President Bush referred to the early stages of diplomacy -- but in fact we have not been actively participating in that effort. Russia in fact even more involved in a sort of a business way, with Iran. So how can we reconcile these differences and still maintain a hard-line posture with Iran? Do you think that the United States will have to shift, or will the Europeans?
GARDINER: I think certainly the United States should be willing to engage the European Union to a greater degree with regard to the Iranian situation. However, in return, it is vitally important that Brussels and the European Union as a whole agree to the principle of applying E.U. and Security Council sanctions against the Iranian regime if they refuse to comply with requests to disarm. At the same time also, I think it's vitally important the E.U. big three -- France, Germany and Britain -- agree to the principle of ultimately supporting the use of force to disarm an nuclear-armed Iran if the Iranians refuse to comply.
Unless we see movement from the European Union with regard to those two major areas, I don't think it's likely that we will see the United States engaging in any long-term negotiation alongside the E.U. with regard to the Iranian regime.
PILGRIM: Let's talk about the other great threat in the world, and that's North Korea. Will President Bush be able to get our allies to present a united front on the North Korean issue?
GARDINER: I think with regard to North Korea, there certainly is greater scope of cooperation between the United States and Europe. Certainly the U.S. has succeeded in generating a large international coalition, pushing forward disarmament in Pyongyang, so I would remain rather more optimistic in terms of the outlook for U.S.-European cooperation with regard to North Korea.
PILGRIM: All right, thank you very much. Nile Gardiner, thank you.
GARDINER: Thank you.
PILGRIM: Perhaps the best evident that Presidents Bush and Chirac have settled their differences over Iraq came on their dinner menu tonight. They ate french fries. Now, you may remember Congress reacted to France's opposition to the war by renaming Capitol Hill french fries freedom fries. Well, in addition, Air Force One served freedom toast instead of french toast. The White House says President Bush and Chirac had one of their best meetings ever. They laughed and talked for two and a half hours -- that was an hour longer than planned.
Well, back in this country, three million illegal aliens crossed our southern border last year, and yet Mexican government officials are encouraging more of their citizens to come to this country illegally. They're offering detailed information on how and where to cross our borders. Casey Wian reports from Los Angeles.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): First there was the Mexican migrant guide, the comic book produced by the Mexican federal government that gives tips on how to stay alive while crossing the United States border. Now, the state of Yucatan in southern Mexico is producing its own guide, with even more help for illegal aliens. The 90-page pocket-sized booklet even comes with its own DVD.
Unlike the federal government's guide, "The Guida del Migrante Yucateco (ph)" does provide information on how to apply for a legal U.S. visa and work perform, but most of its pages are clearly written for illegal border crossers.
RICK OLTMAN, FED. FOR AMERICAN IMMIGRATION REFORM: The state of Yucatan are now trying to enter the great remittance sweepstakes and get their share of the money that flows back into Mexico each year, which is now -- it has increased 23 percent last year over the previous year. It's up to $16 billion a year. So this would appear to be an encouragement for Yucatecos to move to the United States, and of course send the money back.
WIAN: Only a relative handful of Yucatecos live in the United States, and the state receives less than one-tenth of 1 percent of the total money sent home by Mexican nationals. But the guide appears designed to change that, by showing potential immigrants where most Yucatecos live in the United States, offering detailed information about alien-smuggling routes in California, Arizona and Texas, and showing where water tanks are located in the desert.
Two pages are devoted to Mexico's controversial matricular consular identification card. They explain how it can lead to a bank account, public services and a driver's licenses in some U.S. states.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
WIAN: The publisher of the guide says it's part of a rethinking of the state of Yucatan's future. Apparently that future includes more of its citizens crossing the U.S. border illegally -- Kitty.
PILGRIM: All right, thanks very much, Casey Wian.
Let's look at some of your thoughts on the threat from China.
Bob in Norfolk, Virginia writes: "When will Americans wake up? The majority of Americans feel we are not prepared to deal with the threat from China. What then are they thinking as they shop in the aisles of Wal-Mart?"
And Stephen of Oceanside, California: "If America is so worried about China's military buildup, then maybe America should rethink America's trade policy with China."
Lenny of Naperville, Illinois: "As someone who has lost his job to China, I've been appalled that our government thinks nothing of exporting our wealth, technology and our middle class. I've already stopped shopping at Wal-Mart, despite not having a job. The extra expense is worth keeping an American family fed, warm and safe."
Ricardo of Miami, Florida: "Immigration from Mexico affects not only our security, but also the quality of our life. It also puts a lot of pressure on our social programs. I think the majority of Hispanics who are U.S. citizens (like myself) think the same way."
And Penny Weidman of Michigan: "If we treat our homes like we do our borders, we may as well take the doors off our houses."
We love hearing from you. E-mail us at loudobbs@cnn.com.
Now, a reminder to vote in tonight's poll. Do you believe the United States should negotiate with insurgents in Iraq? Yes or no? Cast your vote at loudobbs.com. We'll bring you the results in just a few minutes here.
Next, why hospitals are not using new technologies that could save thousands of lives each year.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PILGRIM: The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention tonight is trying to raise awareness about diagnosing autism. The CDC is launching a campaign on the importance of early detection called "learn the signs, act early." This new campaign is aimed at educating doctors and parents about early childhood development and the symptoms of the disorder. The CDC says treating developmental disabilities early can improve a child's future. Half of all children with autism or similar disorders aren't diagnosed until they're at least 4 years old, but they can be diagnosed as early as 18 months.
Well, new medical technology can coordinate detailed information about a patient in a central database, and that service helps doctors create a more complete medical history. Some estimate that could save up to 100,000 lives every year, but the cost of the system is preventing many hospitals from taking part.
Bill Tucker reports from Boston.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BILL TUCKER CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): This is not your grandfather's operating room. You're looking at a wire being guided through a patient's heart to clear the arteries. There is no denying technology's advancement in medicine. But when it comes to electronic files and records, most doctors' offices and hospitals still rely on paper. Change is coming. Already many hospitals are spending money to build networks and update their technology. In Massachusetts, one hospital is taking it a step further.
(on camera): Here at Beth Israel Deaconess (ph) Medical Center in Boston, Massachusetts, 35,000 patients are linked to their doctors and there medical records via the Internet.
(voice-over): They use a service called Patientsite.
DR. JOHN HALAMKA, CIO, HARVARD MEDICAL SCHOOL: Patientsite gives physicians and patients a shared medical record. The patients can see everything the doctors could see. They can send secure messages to their doctor, make appointments, renew prescriptions, even pay their bills on-line.
TUCKER: Jerilyn Heinold, uses Patientsite, and it helped her avoid a misdiagnosis.
JERILYN HEINOLD, PATIENTSITE USER: I think that, again, we have to move away from the parent-child philosophy of healthcare into the partnership of healthcare. And technology is the tool that you need to have the most information you can when trying to determine what the best kind of healthcare is for you.
TUCKER: But technology is expensive, $30 million for a typical hospital to institute electronic record keeping. Studies show that 89 percent of the cost benefit from such systems go to insurance companies, which would suggest that they should share in financing those systems. Other problems to overcome include developing a set of standard to allow file-sharing over the Internet. And deciding what role, if any, the federal government role should be. As exciting as technology is, one priority should never be forgotten.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They're things that people are spectacular at -- taking care of others, providing care, touching a patient, helping a kid, giving an injection, but making someone feel OK about it. Computers can't do that, people can.
TUCKER: Bill Tucker, CNN, Boston, Massachusetts.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: Next, why a population boom could change the political climate in this country.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) PILGRIM: Some interesting trends tonight in the Census Bureau's new population estimates. Shifts in population could affect our nation's political future. Senior political analyst Bill Schneider reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
WILLIAM SCHNEIDER, CNN SR. POLITICAL ANALYST (voice-over): What's the fastest-growing state in the country? Ladies and gentlemen, place your bets. That was a clue, because the answer is Nevada.
DICK CHENEY, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We have a great feeling about Nevada.
SCHNEIDER: Nevada did end up going for Bush and Cheney. Nevada's typical of population trends around the country. Domestic migrants, mostly white, are leaving crowded and expensive coastal cities like Los Angeles, and moving to places in the interior, places like Las Vegas. They tend to vote Republican. Those states are also attracting a lot immigrants, especially Hispanics. They tend to vote Democratic. Eventually, the same thing is happening in the nation's second fastest-growing state, Arizona, right next door to Nevada, also for Bush. Number three in population growth since 2000, a double-Bush state, governor and president.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: On Tuesday, Florida will vote for strong leadership and send me and Dick Cheney back to Washington.
SCHNEIDER: Others states among the fastest-growing since 2000, Texas, Georgia, Idaho, Utah, John Kerry's Colorado? Wait a minute, John Kerry's Colorado. Actually, yes.
SEN. JOHN EDWARDS (D), VICE PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We're so proud to be here with you today. To be here in the birthplace of the cheeseburger, birthplace of the rodeo, and birthplace of the next president of the United States, John Kerry.
SCHNEIDER: Not quite. Colorado voted for Bush. John Edwards' home state of North Carolina was the ninth fastest-growing, but Edwards on the ticket, didn't seem to have much impact. North Carolina voted for Bush.
Can Democrats claim any of the ten fastest-growing states? Yes, number 10.
SEN. JOHN KERRY (D-MA), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: California was founded by prospectors who came out here looking for silver and gold, and I'm following in that tradition tonight.
SCHNEIDER: California is now solidly Democratic -- well, almost. Overall, the red states, the ones that voted for Bush, gained 7.5 million people since 2000. The blue states gained too, but at a slower rate, 4.6 million.
Bill Schneider, CNN, Los Angeles.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: Joining me now, three of the nation's top journalists.
From Boston we have Roger Simon of "U.S. News & World Report."
From Washington, Karen Tumulty of "Time" magazine.
And here in New York, Jim Ellis of "Businessweek."
And whoever said the snow could stop any of us, we managed to do this anyway. Let's start with the Bush trip to Europe. And I'll start with you, Roger. What do you make of this attempt to mend fences, and do you think we'll be able to do it?
ROGER SIMON, "U.S. NEWS & WORLD REPORT: I think George Bush has two goals. The narrow goal, the more immediate goal is to get some help for Iraq. He knows that he's not going to get troops from Europe or large amounts of money, but he wants the European Union to increase its training of Iraqi military and Iraqi police. But the bigger goal is to show Europeans he doesn't have horns growing out of his head, that he's not a wild cowboy willing to plunge the world into war, that he is a mature world leader with a mature world view. He has considerable personal charm, and he might succeed at that.
PILGRIM: The charm offensive seemed to fall a bit short in terms of Russia, in that the president had some pretty harsh words for them supporting democracy. Karen, do you think that maybe it's too harsh, or do you think this is necessary at this time?
KAREN TUMULTY, "TIME" MAGAZINE: Oh, absolutely necessary. If the president's inaugural address is to have any meaning at all, I think that this meeting with Vladimir Putin is going to be the most important and the most interesting moment of the entire week, because of course, the president early on in his presidency announced that he had looked into Vladimir Putin's soul and liked what he had seen.
If his inaugural address and his larger vision about spreading democracy across the planet is to have any meaning at all, one of the first places that he is going to have to start applying any kind of pressure is Russia. And you're absolutely right, his words today were very blunt. And he basically said that if Vladimir Putin thinks that his interests in the future lie West and if he wants to establish any sort of relationship, including getting into the WTO, that he's going to have to share the values and the institutions of the Western world.
PILGRIM: Jim, we were discussing before this show the fact that France and the United States made a joint statement about Syria, which is another twist to this. Whoever thought that they would be issuing joint statements, much less making friends over in Europe. What do you make of the statement that Syria should get out of Lebanon, and the fact that there are protests now about that?
JIM ELLIS, "BUSINESSWEEK": Well, I actually think that it's a positive sign for both, you know, both powers, the United States and France, to get together on this, though I have to admit that the French were behind this already. So it's a rapprochement, but it's something that we basically knew we could get.
I think in this case that it's -- I'm a little worried about just how quickly this -- the show of opposition in Lebanon happened. It almost looks as if it was somewhat staged. As soon as we say that the Syrians have stopped any ability of democracy there, there's a large demonstration that shows the opposition is strong.
I'm a little uncertain about that. I do think, however, that Mr. Bush is starting to realize that there are a lot of things out there -- whether it's Iran and its nuclear aspirations, whether it's China and the prospect that Europe is going to restart selling arms to them -- there's a lot of things out there that he's going to need European help on. So he's got to come to the table now and say, hey, guys, let's get together.
PILGRIM: Let's get Roger in on this, and as Jim points out, a lot of issues, arms sales to China, Kyoto, we have -- we have the International Criminal Court. There are a lot of things we do not see eye-to-eye with the Europeans on. What's your assessment of us being able to bridge that gap?
SIMON: Well, it may be a trade-off. Maybe we're going to trade off France's help in Lebanon, where it has considerable influence and Syria, in return for supporting France's position and much of Europe's position, that we ought to lift the embargo of arms against China, because if we don't sell them arms, China is going to develop its own arms program anyway.
There's always a minimum result guaranteed before any U.S. president goes on a jaunt like this, so he's going to get something out of it. We just don't know how much.
I think the trip is 90 percent cosmetic and symbolic and maybe 10 percent we're going to get some real results.
PILGRIM: Yeah, it's 90 percent cosmetic, but the issues are very real, and in fact, North Korea, Iran, very, very pressing problems. Karen, your thoughts on this?
TUMULTY: Well, you know, Kitty, I think Iran is going to be the real test of this, where we have the Europeans and the United States having very divergent positions. The Europeans wanting to engage in diplomacy with Iran; the United States wanting to impose sanctions.
Now, there is a possible compromise here, which would essentially be a good cop/bad cop routine. Essentially the Europeans agreeing that if in fact diplomacy does fail, that they would sign on to the sanctions. And it will be quite interesting to see whether, by the end of this week, there are some signals that in fact if the two forces disagree, that at least they can settle on some sort of a long- term joint strategy.
PILGRIM: Let's talk about China for a second, because it is a very important issue. The arms sales to China, there was -- there was an embargo put on after Tiananmen Square. Now the Europeans would like to sell arms to China. The United States does not want the arms embargo lifted. Will we be able to get through this issue? Let me start with Jim.
ELLIS: Yeah, I think we'll be able to get through it. I have a feeling it's not going to be to the pleasure of Washington. I actually think that the Europeans have made -- you know, they've made a pretty strong argument, that they would like to continue to engage China, the same way that we are engaging China that used to be part of that sort of evil axis, or evil empire of a few years ago. But I think that they're going to have to do that through things like this. They don't have the economic might -- at least they do collectively, but as individual governments, they don't have the economic might that the United States has in engaging China. And so things like this are big overtures that will push their own agenda, and I think that the president basically has to buy into that.
PILGRIM: The Chinese military buildup is considerable. Is this a cause for worry, Roger?
SIMON: It's always a cause for worry, but right now we have to keep in mind, as Jim says, we're looking upon China as an ally, we need China, and I think the president is going to lose on the subject of arms trade to China, just because whenever there's a dollar to be made, there's a dollar to be made. But more importantly, we need China if we want a solution to North Korea. That is really our main card in dealing with the North Koreans, it is our main hope of getting the North Koreans to renew and re-engage in the six-party talks. And it's not a one-way street. Sure, our trade helps China, but we get something from China in return, and that's a promise to support in a lot of areas of crisis around the world.
PILGRIM: Exactly. We have to cut it there. I'm sorry, Karen, I'll give you the first word next time. My apologies. Karen Tumulty, Roger Simon and Jim Ellis, thank you.
Still ahead, the results of tonight's poll and a preview of what's ahead tomorrow.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PILGRIM: Now the results of tonight's poll. It's pretty evenly split. Forty-nine percent of you believe the United States should negotiate with insurgents in Iraq, and 51 percent do not.
Well, thanks for being with us tonight. Please join us tomorrow. The author of "University, Inc.: The Corporate Corruption of Higher Education." That author will join us.
And then, China cheats. One group is fighting to stop the Chinese from stealing intellectual property.
We'll also have our special report, "Overmedicated Nation." Tomorrow, doctors taking surprising new steps to prevent medical mistakes.
For all of us here, good night from New York. A special edition of "ANDERSON COOPER 360" is next.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
