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Lou Dobbs Tonight
Supreme Court Decides Against Juvenile Executions; Husband, Mother of Federal Judge Murdered
Aired March 01, 2005 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LOU DOBBS, HOST: Tonight, illegal alien invasion. Communities all across this country are battling to control illegal aliens working as day laborers. I'll be talking with a top official about his fight to stop illegal aliens from obtaining U.S. driver's licenses.
And a secret trade agreement. The White House is trying to push a new trade agreement with Central America through Congress as quickly and as quietly as possible. We'll have two opposing views on that agreement tonight.
And is Canada getting a free ride on defense from the United States? Canada spends less on defense than almost any other NATO country. Now it refuses to parts knit in a missile defense system for the whole of North America.
ANNOUNCER: This is Lou Dobbs, for news, debate and opinion tonight.
DOBBS: Good evening.
The Supreme Court today declared that the execution of juvenile murders is unconstitutional. In a 5-4 decision, the high court ruled the execution of juvenile killers violates the Eighth Amendment ban on cruel and unusual punishment. That ruling overturns the death sentences of 72 murderers who were under 18 when they committed their crimes.
Brian Todd reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Christopher Simmons' guilt was never in doubt. He confessed to a horrible crime.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We, the jury, find the defendant, Christopher Simmons, guilty of murder in the first degree.
TODD: In 1993, Simmons and a 14-year-old accomplice convicted of killing their neighbor, Shirley Crook, taken from her home, bound, a towel over her head. She was thrown off a train trestle and drowned in the Merrimack River near St. Louis, a robbery that netted $6.
Simmons was sentenced to death. And at that time, neighbors debated the punishment for the then 17-year-old.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You see that tree over there? That's where they ought to be. That's what I think.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What? Hanging from it?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We think that these kids don't have any idea as to what life is all about. He's lost. He's a lost kid.
TODD: The Supreme Court, just as divided, ruling 5-4 that executing juvenile killers like Simmons is unconstitutional.
Writing the majority opinion, Justice Anthony Kennedy states, quote, "When a juvenile commits a heinous crime, the state can exact forfeiture of some of the most basic liberties, but the state cannot extinguish his life and his potential to attain a mature understanding of his own humanity."
Before the court, Simmons' attorney, Seth Waxman, argued the difference between adolescent and adult judgment.
SETH WAXMAN, ATTORNEY FOR CHRISTOPHER SIMMONS: We argued that 18 is the natural age. It's an age that's reflected almost universally whenever legislatures have to find a dividing line between adolescence and adulthood, for purposes of driving and signing contracts and entering marriage agreements, and things like that.
TODD: The court agreed with Waxman that standards for the juvenile death penalty had evolved since the court ruled in favor of it in 1989.
But in a bitter dissent, Justice Antonin Scalia wrote, "This is no way to run a legal system."
Prosecutors like the one in the county next to where Simmons was tried say the ruling infringes on state's authority to legislate the death penalty and could have more sweeping implications.
ROBERT MCCULLOCH, PROSECUTOR, ST. LOUIS COUNTY, MISSOURI: If their decision is based on the immaturity or the fact they claim, at least, that juveniles are less culpable and therefore should not be subjected to death, how can they possibly justify sending a juvenile to prison for life without parole? That's the real concern. I don't -- I'm afraid they're not going to stop there.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
TODD: for now, Christopher Simmons and more than 70 others who were under 18 at the time of their crimes are no longer on Death Row and states will not be allowed to seek the death penalty for minors in the future -- Lou.
DOBBS: Brian, thank you very much. Brian Todd.
Joining me now from Santa Maria, California, is our senior legal analyst, Jeffrey Toobin.
Jeffrey, how big a decision is this, in your estimation?
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: This is really a remarkable transformation. In 1989, not only the same Supreme Court, but the same nine justices decided this case exactly the opposite way.
Now you have not only 72 people off Death Row immediately, but, you know, this Supreme Court has gone from a very pro-death penalty court to a court that recently banned execution of the mentally retarded, now 16- and 17-year-olds. It's just a different court, even though it's the same people.
DOBBS: The issues, as you point out, are the same. The issue of culpability, as the prosecutor in Brian Todd's report pointed out, with that reasoning, that one has not reached a natural age of reason, that is 18, how can one -- how can the court system put a juvenile criminal behind bars without parole for life?
TOOBIN: You know, I think the Supreme Court has always said death is different, execution is different. I don't think this court is going to have much trouble sustaining life prison sentences without parole.
It's the death penalty that really worries them. It's the finality of that. It's the impossibility of, you know, of fixing a problem if it turns out you've gotten it wrong. I don't think this court is going to have any trouble keeping people in prison for life.
DOBBS: And Jeffrey, one last question. Does the fact that so many revelations of miscarriages of justice, that of people on Death Row, resulting in them being there, do you think that played a part in this decision?
TOOBIN: Huge, Lou. And I think it plays in lots of these death- penalty decisions. The three most important letters in the death penalty alphabet are DNA. The fact that DNA has freed so many wrongfully convicted people has given the entire judicial system a case of the willies. We don't want to execute innocent people. I think that's why the pendulum has swung, not just in this case but in several.
DOBBS: Jeffrey, thank you very much. Jeffrey Toobin joining us, following, of course, the Michael Jackson trial.
Police tonight are investigating the possibility that white supremacists may have been involved in the murders of a federal judge's husband and her mother in Chicago. The federal judge was once the target of a failed murder plot by a white supremacist leader.
Sean Callebs reports now from Chicago -- Sean.
SEAN CALLEBS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Indeed, Lou, heavy police presence outside the home here of U.S. district Judge Joan Lefkow. Judge Lefkow returned to her home late yesterday afternoon, discovering the bodies of her mother, Donna Humphrey, and that of her husband, 65-year-old Michael Lefkow. As you mentioned, judge Lefkow was once the target of a failed murder plot by 33-year-old Matthew Hale, a white supremacist. Hale was convicted in April of 2004 for trying to hire an undercover FBI informant to kill the judge.
Now, Hale is awaiting sentencing for his crimes and authorities are, of course, are looking at a possibility connection between white supremacists and the double killings here, but they stress it is early in the investigation.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHIEF DET. JAMES MALLOW, CHICAGO POLICE: There is much speculation about possible links between this crime and the possible involvement of hate groups. This is but one facet of our investigation. We are looking in many, many directions, but it would be far too early to draw any definitive links.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CALLEBS: Lefkow and her surviving family members are under protection by the U.S. marshal service this evening. And the marshal service is also aiding in the investigation of this crime, along with the Chicago police.
The marshal's office says if, indeed, the family members were killed because of the judge's work on the bench, it would be the first time the family members of a U.S. district judge were killed because of that judge's work.
Now, authorities say that Hale became enraged when Lefkow made a ruling on a case about copyright infringement, saying that Hale could not use the name World Church of the Creator, because another organization already had copyright on that name.
Hale first gained national prominence back in 1999 when one of his supporters, Benjamin Smith, went on a shooting rampage in Indiana and Illinois. He killed two people and wounded nine others before taking his own life as cops moved in.
Authorities say they are looking at the possibility that hate groups could be associated with this crime, but they say they are also looking at other cases that the judge was working on.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DEPUTY SUPT. HIRAM GRAU, CHICAGO POLICE: This case will be solved based on the evidence and the information provided to us by the public. And to that end, we have established a tip line that residents can call if they have any information about this crime.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CALLEBS: Now, the bodies were found in the basement of the home, Lou. Published reports say that authorities found two .22 caliber casings. DOBBS: Sean, let's turn to one thing first of all, and that's a lack of protection for the judge and her family, despite the threats and the obvious attempt to -- to murder her. Why was the federal protection withdrawn?
CALLEBS: Well, the protection was withdrawn because the judge apparently after some time was convinced that, because Hale was in prison. And any communication he has with anybody, only his family apparently only twice a week or so, is very strictly monitored.
And the judge herself said that the police protection, the federal protection was no longer necessary. But of course, as you can see behind me, there is intense protection out here tonight. And of course U.S. marshals are watching her and her surviving members very closely, too.
DOBBS: And the hate groups that are involved, and principally that run by Hale, do we know how large an organization it is, how many people are involved, and to what degree are the members of that organization under surveillance and investigation tonight?
CALLEBS: Well, it's difficult to say the exact size because a certain degree of the communication goes on line in a very clandestine fashion, things of that nature. But Hale certainly a devout white supremacist, has been able to gain the support of his followers, and they've been very emotional in his -- in following his lead.
But whether any of them are associated with this crime, the authorities say at this point it is simply too early to tell. But obviously that's something that all authorities are going to be watching very closely in the coming days and weeks ahead -- Lou.
DOBBS: Thank you, Sean. Sean Callebs reporting from Chicago.
The man accused of being the vicious BTK serial killer today made his first court appearance since his arrest in Wichita, Kansas, last Friday. Dennis Rader, dressed in an orange jumpsuit, made his court appearance in a video link from his jail cell. Rader listened to a judge read out 10 counts of first-degree murder. The court set a preliminary hearing for March 15.
Turning to Washington, the Bush administration today opened a new front in its escalating diplomatic offensive against Syria. A senior administration official declared a Syrian-based terrorist group helped plan last Friday's suicide bombing in Israel. Five people were killed. The United States is also pressing Syria to change its policies toward Lebanon and Iraq.
Senior White House correspondent John King has the report -- John.
JOHN KING, CNN SR. WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Lou, this remarkable effort to isolate Syria, as you know, taking on an added element today. Bush administration officials saying they have "firm evidence" that a group based in Damascus, Syria, the Palestine Islamic Jihad, not only authorized but active planned that suicide bombing in Israel last Friday. Five people killed in that bombing.
The United States believes it was an attempt to disrupt the recent effort by the Palestinians and the Israelis to begin a security and ultimately a dialogue to get them back into peace negotiations. In pointing the blame at a group based in Damascus, the Bush administration continuing its effort to isolate Syria as what it considers to be right now the prime bad actor in the Middle East at a time of hope in the region.
Continuing that effort today the secretary of state, Condoleezza Rice. She was in London for a conference on the Middle East, efforts to bring new help to the Palestinians. Secretary Rice saying yet again that she believes that Syria has helped or at least allowed supporters of the Iraqi insurgency to operate within its borders. Secretary Rice also saying that it is critical that the international community pressure Syria to immediately pull all of its troops and security forces and intelligence forces from Lebanon immediately to allow for free, fair and independent elections in that country as soon as possible.
A similar message back here in Washington. President Bush met on the White House compound with key members of Congress, both Democrats and Republicans, leadership officials, as well as others involved in foreign affairs. You see the president there with Senator Richard Lugar, the chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee. Mr. Bush updating them on his international agenda right now, including the effort to pressure Syria.
After that meeting. Senator Joseph Biden, the ranking Democrat on the Foreign Relations Committee, saying right now there is international pressure on Syria and he believes the president is right to try to intensify it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. JOSEPH BIDEN (D), DELAWARE: The Syrians have been incredibly good at engaging in what Mohammed Ali used to refer to as rope-a-dope. I mean, these guys are very good at that, but they are beginning to be pushed to the ropes here. Their only friend in the region is Iran. The rest of the world should keep the pressure on.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: The Bush administration is voicing confidence it can keep that pressure on, working with France very closely, especially on the issue of Lebanon. U.S. officials says one option at their disposal are additional sanctions against Syria, but they say, Lou, it's a wait-and-see approach right now.
They believe they have the Syrian government under extraordinary international pressure right now. They say the key decision, the next decision for Syria to make is for how quickly it will pull its troops from Lebanon. President Bashar Assad today saying that could happen. He told "TIME" Magazine within a few months. The White House says that is not anywhere near soon enough, that it should happen immediately -- Lou. DOBBS: Not soon enough, rather immediately. To what degree can the White House, the government of the United States, and in this case also France, bring about pressure, political, economic or otherwise, to make Syria move faster?
KING: Well, the immediate goal is to make the Syrian government feel very lonely and feel that it has no support in the region, with the exception of possibly Iran. And, of course, there are diplomatic efforts to pressure Iran as well.
If the diplomatic pressure does not work, the administration says it is prepared to go back to the United Nations Security Council and seek more sanctions, and that the president himself, through an act already passed by Congress and through his executive powers, could impose some additional sanctions. For now, the pressure is on diplomacy. But, Lou, senior administration officials say they will go further if necessary. Again, the president has some sanctions at his disposal, and we could get another debate at the United Nations as well.
DOBBS: Thank you, John. John King, our senior White House correspondent.
Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice today delayed a visit to Canada just days after the Canadian government refused to join the U.S. missile defense system. Critics say Canada simply wants a free ride on defense at the expense of American taxpayers.
Kitty Pilgrim reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KITTY PILGRIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The development of the missile defense shield is a big priority for President Bush, so U.S.-Canada relations hit a rough patch with this statement from Canadian Prime Minister Paul Martin.
PAUL MARTIN, CANADIAN PRIME MINISTER: We are announcing today that Canada will not take part in the proposed ballistic missile system.
PILGRIM: That statement a shocking turnaround. The United States and Canada have pledged shared defense responsibilities of North America for decades, even if the United States picks up most of the tab.
Canada only spends a little more than 1 percent of its GDP on defense, but Canada is protected by massive defense outlays in the United States. But Canadian public opinion opposed the war in Iraq, and now most oppose participation in the U.S. missile shield. So many experts say Paul Martin made the statements for political reasons.
JACK SPENCER, HERITAGE FOUNDATION: At the end of the day, if a ballistic missile comes headed towards Canada, whether they participate or not, the United States will, in all likelihood, intercept that ballistic missile. PILGRIM: Canada has been on the list of first visits for Condoleezza Rice's early weeks in office. But her trip to Canada was suddenly in flux after Canada's announcement.
ADAM ERELI, STATE DEPT. SPOKESMAN: We're working to nail down the logistics for that meeting. And the issue of missile defense is a separate issue.
PILGRIM: The administration today repeatedly denying Condoleezza Rice's planned trip was canceled in irritation over the issue.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: Well, the White House today said rather tersely, "We're going to move on and focus on ways we continue working together with Canada." The previously scheduled meeting with President Bush, President Fox, and Canadian Prime Minister Martin is being billed as a trilateral meeting on shared priorities to discuss common interests. And that meeting is expected to take place later this month -- Lou.
DOBBS: And the reason the secretary of state chose not to go?
PILGRIM: A scheduling issue.
DOBBS: A scheduling issue. Very well.
PILGRIM: Convincing.
DOBBS: Thank you very much, Kitty Pilgrim.
Still ahead here, illegal alien invasion. Day laborers, many of them illegal aliens, are swamping many communities across this country. Now some of those communities are fighting back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Taxpayers in Arizona may not have to pay for day labor centers anymore. Some, in fact, may find it disturbing that taxpayers ever paid for those labor centers because they are largely used by illegal aliens. Now legislation barring taxpayer dollars from going toward the centers is making its way through the Arizona legislature.
Bill Tucker has the report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BILL TUCKER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Should taxpayers pay to help illegal aliens find work? At least one Arizona state representative thinks the answer is an obvious no. She's introduced a bill that would prohibit taxpayer money from building or funding day labor centers in her state.
COLETTE ROSATI (R), ARIZONA STATE REPRESENTATIVE: By the illegals coming here and being encouraged to continue to come here, they're actually depressing the wages and they're hurting the job market for our American citizens. That's just not right to take our taxpayer dollars to hurt our own people.
TUCKER: Day labor centers are not unique to Arizona. Day laborers can be found in California, New York, Connecticut, Florida, literally in states and communities all across the country, many of which have built employment centers in an effort to get the would-be workers off the streets. And those centers create a problem which critics are quick to point out.
DAN STEIN, FAIR: When a state or a community sets up a day labor center, they are spending taxpayer money to actually help somebody who is committing a felony, violating immigration law, seeking illegal employment. They're actually helping harbor that illegal alien and helping him remain here.
TUCKER: And by helping people remain illegally, it creates another problem.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
TUCKER: There's a whole new meaning to the phrase "If you build it, they will come." Or, Lou, at least you create the incentive for them to come.
DOBBS: And that's really the issue here. It is not that illegal aliens, besides the fact they're violating U.S. laws when they do cross that border, but the fact that going unpunished are the corporations, the businesses and individual U.S. citizens who are hiring them, giving them that incentive. And that's the next step in this -- in this fight against what is literally an invasion, or at least it should be.
Bill Tucker, thank you very much.
Coming up next here, how one state is taking action now, trying to stop illegal aliens from obtaining U.S. drivers' licenses. That story is next.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: In just one moment, one state's crackdown on drivers' licenses for illegal aliens. It's being met with a fierce legal battle. The head of New York's Department of Motor Vehicles will be our guest.
Now here are some of the other importance stories that we're following this evening.
Authorities in Florida are scaling back their search for missing 9-year-old Jessica Marie Lunsford. They are using search dogs in the area surrounding the girl's home on the Gulf Coast. She's been missing now for nearly a week.
A huge snowstorm in the Northeast making it different at best for people to get around today, not only on the roads but in the air. Hundreds of flights canceled, schools closed up and down the East Coast.
And millionaire Steve Fossett is making process in his latest adventure through the sky. After a successful takeoff yesterday, Fossett was seen this afternoon flying over Libya at 390 miles an hour, riding the jet stream, of course. He's trying to become the first person to fly an aircraft around the globe without stopping, even to refuel.
In New York State, a crackdown at the Department of Motor Vehicles has uncovered numerous illegal aliens who have obtained illegally drivers' licenses. The DMV is running cross-checks on Social Security numbers to ensure that applicants for drivers' licenses are who they say they are.
A New York judge ordered the DMV to stop the practice, saying it is not authorized to enforce immigration law. That's right, the DMV is appealing the decision.
I'm joined now by Raymond Martinez. He is the commissioner of the New York Department of Motor Vehicles.
Commissioner, it's good to have you with us.
RAYMOND MARTINEZ, NEW YORK DMV COMMISSIONER: Thank you very much.
DOBBS: The idea that a judge would stop you from doing what seems only rational, do you believe this can stand?
MARTINEZ: Well, of course I'm limited in what I can speak about in that litigation, but we believe we're that acting pursuant to law, even in terms of just enforcing our traffic safety laws. What we uncovered was 250,000 people that were using fraudulent Social Security numbers to obtain drivers' licenses.
DOBBS: Incredible.
MARTINEZ: And that is not good for traffic safety enforcement or for public security.
DOBBS: And how far had you got into the cross-checking process when the temporary restraining order was issued by the judge?
MARTINEZ: We were about 7,000 suspensions into the process. We have cross-checked everyone. We have contacted everyone on that list. The next step really is just the suspension.
DOBBS: And this decision, you expect it when on the part of the judge?
MARTINEZ: We actually were in court today.
DOBBS: Right.
MARTINEZ: She has reserved decision. It could -- we could have a decision this evening or tomorrow. But under any circumstances we will be before the appellate division on the 29th of this month.
DOBBS: And what has been the reaction to you, your department's efforts for do what is the rational, responsible thing under any semblance of adherence to state law and guidelines?
MARTINEZ: Well, I must tell you, we've received -- I'm grateful to have received a lot of support, particularly from family members of 9/11 victims here in New York. That is very important to us.
But the general public also has been very understanding. They know it takes a little bit more time to get a driver's license, and they've been willing to put up with it, because they understand it's a post-9/11 world and they under the security nature of these documents.
DOBBS: The security nature, the very idea that we have illegal aliens -- and I think it is a fair statement on the part of those who advocate open borders and amnesty -- although I'm opposed to both -- I think it is a fair statement for them to say that illegal aliens do contribute, at least at the margin, to our economy. But the idea that those two arguments, contribution to the economy and the suggestion that there is some sort of racism built into the issue, is mind- boggling to me.
MARTINEZ: Well, that's correct. And in New York State, at least, you know, the legislature has not spoken to the issue specifically of legal status to get a license, pro or con.
The fact is that our effort is strictly within the purview of a Department of Motor Vehicle. We require current, valid and verifiable documents before we issue that New York State driver's license or non- driver I.D.
It has nothing to do with whether they're legal or illegal. And if they can't meet that standard, that's not our problem. The fact is we have also caught up with numerous people who are perfectly legal U.S. residents that were balancing, juggling multiple drivers' licenses, avoiding child support, court-ordered child support, and other issues.
DOBBS: Right. And the judge, it seems in this case, it seems to me, at least, that every judge should understand that a driver's license is prima facie evidence of citizenship. And in point of fact, may by de facto citizenship. Because that -- if you have that valid New York State drivers license, or any other states drivers license, that's your key to the kingdom.
MARTINEZ: No question about it, particularly the New York State driver's license, which has always had a high degree of security in its issuance. But even our system, which we believe was very secure, the document itself very secure, it was compromised. We knew it, and the most important tool that we received after 9/11 was being able to cross-check the social security numbers. And we found exactly what we knew we were going to find -- hundreds of thousands of people that scam the system.
And for what reason... DOBBS: And not just the illegal aliens.
MARTINEZ: That's precisely the point. And so, you know, we're in the unenviable position of some people to ask us to differentiate between illegal aliens who they say are harmless or whatever, and people who are intent on perhaps causing terrorist acts in the United States, or at the very least causing credit card fraud, avoiding, as I said, child support obligations. And even from a purely traffic safety perspective, we had 500 taxi drivers in New York City that had three or more licenses. And the reason they were doing that, was so that they kept one clean for the DMV, and for their insurance purposes. And all the others is where they racked up DWI's, crashes, speeding, et cetera. That's unacceptable.
DOBBS: Unacceptable. And creates even greater cost and burdens for society, because those who play by the rules pay for the price.
Commissioner Ray Martinez, we thank you for being here. We wish you all the best of luck luck.
MARTINEZ: Thank you very much.
DOBBS: Thank you.
"Tonight's Thought" is on this country, on America. "There will be no greater burden on our generation than to organize the forces of liberty in our time in order to make our quest of a new freedom for America."
Taking a look now at some of "Your Thoughts"
Jim Strasen of Marion, Iowa wrote in to say, "I do not understand how anyone in their right mind can call CAFTA or NAFTA free trade agreements. When the average American makes dollars per hour, and the average Mexican or person from Central America makes cents per hour, there cannot be free trade. CAFTA will only cost more average Americans their jobs, and continue to make big business billions of dollars."
Sandra in Tennessee, "American jobs continue to be outsourced and now CAFTA is heating up. This is going to be a country of two groups: the haves an the have nots. I recently retired from a 30 year career with an international manufacturing corporation and consider myself part of the middle class. However, I know I am sliding downhill almost daily."
Sally Lasater in Houston, Texas, "Lou, companies in the United States won't stop outsourcing jobs until the lines waiting to buy cheap goods are Wal-Mart stop forming. Want to change things? Stop the middle Class from buying these cheap Chinese goods."
And Terry Tucker in Fayetteville, North Carolina wrote in about our reports on protecting Iraqi police stations from insurgent attacks. "There is no excuse to have police recruits standing outdoors two years after we learn that is an insurgent target. Has anyone at the Pentagon ever heard of an appointment book or a tick of admission?"
We love hearing "Your Thoughts." We really do, so please send them to us at loudobbs@cnn.com.
Many of us watch, read or listen to weather reports to know what to expect in the hours or days to come. As we know those forecasts aren't always completely reliable. But the Mayor Moscow wants to hold weather men accountable for those forecast. Now the mayor may be on to something. The major wants to fine the city-funded weathermen when their forecasts turn out to be wrong. That move comes after the weather service failed to report exactly when a January blizzard would hit, and how much snow it would bring. Moscow's mayor has gone even further in the past, trying to control the weather himself. Before major events in the city, he has spent thousands of dollars to douse clouds with dry ice and liquid nitrogen. That's so the clouds dump all their rain before hitting the city.
Coming up next, a living battle over yet another so called free trade agreement. Why some say Congress will be the death of CAFTA. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Tonight our special report on the controversial Central American Free Trade Agreement, it's known as CAFTA. The White House brokered the deal with six countries in Central America and was going to push it before Congress last year, but the political season being what it was and the presidential race coming on as it was, it delayed. Now it wants Congress to move as soon as possible, and as quietly as possible. But many lawmakers are now wary from NAFTA and our exploding trade deficits.
They're more than skeptical, As Lisa Sylvester now reports from Washington.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LISA SYLVESTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The U.S./Australian Trade Agreement sailed through Congress last year with no problems, but CAFTA, the Central American Free Trade Agreement is expected to be a knockdown, drag out fight in Congress later this year. Many lawmakers are souring on new trade agreements.
REP. SANDER LEVIN (D), MICHIGAN: More and more there's a realization that you just can't say expanded trade, willy nilly. You have to look at its impact, its content as it's shaped.
SYLVESTER: That view is gaining in Congress, and it's why CAFTA is in trouble. Lawmakers can point to a 10-year record on NAFTA, the North American Free Trade Agreement. Hundreds of thousands of jobs lost, and a record $618 billion trade deficit. The exporting of American jobs has also made it harder for many Republicans to support the trade deal.
ERNEST BAYNARD, AMERICANS FOR FAIR TRADE: In the first time away, when people were touting NAFTA, they proclaimed it would be this great economic boon for farmers and workers. NAFTA has not turned out that way. I think NAFTA has a very negative legacy, and a history of failed promises.
SYLVESTER: Lawmakers will not be able to make any changes to the existing CAFTA accord, they will only vote yes or no. Even CAFTA proponents fear there will be more no votes than yes.
BILL FRENZEL, BROOKINGS INSTITUTE: It will be a squeaker, because the forces arrayed against it are working very hard now.
SYLVESTER: Bush administration officials delayed bringing CAFTA to Congress last year. They didn't have enough votes, the same reason they haven't brought it forth this year.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SYLVESTER: CAFTA could shape the rest of President Bush's trade agenda. A growing shift away from trade liberalization could also affect upcoming votes on continuing membership in the World Trade Organization, and whether to extend fast-track authority -- Lou.
DOBBS: Big issues indeed. Lisa Sylvester, thank you very much.
We want to hear your thoughts on CAFTA on "Tonight's Poll." And the question is, do you believe Congress should pass the Central American Free Trade Agreement, yes or no. Cast your votes at loudobbs.com. We'll have the results for you later here in the broadcast.
Another poll of a different time, a new UBS Survey showing investors are happy for the most part, but three of the top concerns for investors right now are issues that we've been covering extensively on this broadcast. Four out of five investors surveyed now say they're worried about the outsourcing of American jobs to cheap foreign labor markets, and our soaring federal budget deficit.
And two thirds say the flood of illegal aliens into this country is, in their opinion, hurting our economy.
Why my next guest says CAFTA will actually protect American jobs, be good for the American economy, NAFTA notwithstanding. The leading proponent for CAFTA is my guest here in just a moments. Please stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: We've reported extensively here of course on the so- called free trade policies of both this administration and the previous. We're reported on our record trade deficit. We have reported on a number of issues surrounding the economic well-being of this country and the pressures that are being created on American workers.
We've also reported on the Central American Free Trade Agreement now for some time and how it will affect Americans. Critics of CAFTA say it will have the same effect on this country as NAFTA, which was signed back in 1993. Many blame NAFTA for the loss of nearly a million American jobs. My next guest, however, is not among them. He is the assistant U.S. trade representative, and he says CAFTA will actually protect jobs in the United States. Joining me now from Washington, D.C. is Representative Christopher Padilla. Good to have you with us.
CHRISTOPHER PADILLA, ASSISTANT U.S. TRADE REP.: Thank you, Lou. Appreciate the chance.
DOBBS: Let me ask you, first, the delay in bringing CAFTA forward to Congress, now delayed again. Does the president have the votes at this point in your judgment?
PADILLA: The president is a strong supporter of CAFTA. I think as we have the chance to get the word out about what this trade agreement means, and more importantly what it doesn't mean, I'm confident that we'll get the support in Congress, and I know that we're going to push forward in the next weeks and months to do that.
DOBBS: And with that confidence, what's it based on? Because NAFTA right now is being deemed a failure from many of the same people in the Republican Party supporting the president, looking at 10 years' experience and saying, this is not working the way we intended. It is not working to the advantage of American citizens. How do you construct an argument for CAFTA that will be persuasive?
PADILLA: Well, I don't agree with the characterization of NAFTA, but I would say that while CAFTA rhymes with NAFTA, the similarity pretty much ends there.
DOBBS: An unfortunate rhyme.
PADILLA: Well, maybe we would have named it something differently had we thought about it, but the important thing, Lou, is we already have free trade with Central America. In fact, we've had it for a decade, but it's one-way free trade. I think a lot of folks don't realize that under a program started in the '80s and expanded by President Clinton, about 80 percent of what we import from Central America today comes into this country duty-free.
DOBBS: Right.
PADILLA: And what this trade agreement does is it opens their markets to our products. And so for those like you and many of your viewers who are concerned about the trade deficit, this is the kind of trade agreement that levels the playing field that I hope you'll support.
DOBBS: Well, let's go -- let's move toward that support, and just give me a sense of a couple of things. One, as you point out, free trade has meant for too long for this country, for this administration in my opinion and the previous as well, that we open up our, the world's largest, richest consumer market to whomever we want to target, whether it be the Chinese or whether it be Central America.
To what degree will this redress our trade deficit if we do -- if we were to sign CAFTA and put it into law? How would it improve it? Is there -- have you got a model and a number?
PADILLA: Well, these are small countries, Lou, but they're actually very big markets for our exports. In fact, we trade more with Central America than we trade with Brazil or with Australia.
As the president says, you know, it's easy to trade into America. What we want to do is make sure that others open their markets so that we can sell them our products and services.
I watched your program last night. You had a farmer on from Iowa, who's concerned about CAFTA. And I wonder what that farmer would say if he knew that 99 percent of farm products coming in from Central America today are duty-free, but if he grows corn or soybeans or hogs or cattle, he has to pay pretty hefty tariffs on those things in Central America. So we probably won't agree on a lot of trade agreements, Lou, but on this one, I think we are leveling the playing field, and I think that's a strong argument for it.
DOBBS: If indeed the result is to level the playing field, I couldn't be more supportive. As you point out, right now it's hardly that. The degree to which CAFTA can redress that, you know, it's an open-ended question obviously at this point, and Congress will resolve that.
You know, you once referred to this broadcast, particularly me, implying that I'm something of a protectionist, and I just want to set the record straight, between you and me, just you and me, no one else, I'm neither a protectionist or an economic isolationist as the administration has tried to brand me. I want to see healthy, mutual, balanced trade.
I have to ask you, in that sense, what is this administration? Because if -- I for the life of me cannot understand why we continue to pursue policies that for 20 years have resulted in deficits, and we're a country now approaching $4 trillion in external trade debt. When are we going to redress what is a clear deficit and a clear and I think present danger to the well-being of this economy?
PADILLA: Well, Lou, we agree with you, that we want to have fair and balanced trade. We believe that Americans can compete with anybody in the world when they're given a fair chance to compete. And that's why the president wants to open foreign markets, because, as you said, our market is largely open, and certainly that's the case with Central America.
Now, with regard to the trade deficit, one way we can try to attack that is by opening new opportunities for our exporters, but it's also important to recognize that we have a strong and growing economy. American consumers buy a lot of things from the world, because we're doing well. I wish we could get other economies to grow as fast, Europe and Japan especially.
DOBBS: I agree with you.
PADILLA: That is very important, and we feel the same way about developing economies, like Brazil and China and others. We want them to buy more of our products. So, I think we agree on the goals, Lou. Perhaps we disagree on individual trade agreements, but we certainly want to do what's right for American workers and farmers.
DOBBS: Well, absolutely, and every working man and woman in this country, I'm sure.
PADILLA: Absolutely.
DOBBS: Assistant Trade Representative Chris Padilla, we thank you for being here. We hope you'll come back soon. We would be delighted to have an exchange of views anytime on any subject.
PADILLA: Thank you.
DOBBS: Give you every shot. We'll even bring back the gentleman, the farmer in Iowa. The three of us might have a conversation here one of these days if you're up for that.
PADILLA: I think that would be an interesting conversation. Thank you, Lou.
DOBBS: You got it. Thank you very much, sir.
Coming up next, our nation's labor leaders are planning to take on the growing dominance of corporate America in our economy, and our political system, and our society. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Tonight the AFL-CIO, the nation's largest labor union, is holding its annual meeting, trying to revitalize both itself and the struggling national labor movement.
I talked earlier with the AFL-CIO's number two official about how organized labor in its present weakened condition will be able to be an effective countervailing influence against the overwhelming dominance of corporate America.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
RICHARD TRUMKA, AFL-CIO SECRETARY TREASURER: We're going to draw on what has always been our greatest strength, and that's unity, and try to bring everybody in the labor movement together, and then build the alliances that we've always had in the past.
Just last year, Lou, we brought in 800,000 people into an organization called Working America, that really aren't part of collective bargaining. But they want a voice in the economy. They know that they are losing their pensions. They know they are losing their health care. They know that they are losing their ability and their future, so they want to have a voice. So they've joined together with us. That's the nascence, the beginning of a real organization and an alliance which we can spread.
DOBBS: Organized labor has sent out so many confusing signals. At a time when illegal immigration is contributing to depressed wages for working men and women in this country, about $200 billion a year, the AFL-CIO supporting open borders and amnesty. That's a tough message to reconcile with representing U.S. citizen workers.
TRUMKA: Well, first of all, let's look at those workers. Many of those workers that you just referred to have been in this country for three or four or five years. They've been producing, they've been paying taxes, but they get take advantage of.
What we don't want to see is government allow or corporate America actually facilitate workers coming into this country and then exploiting them. What we're asking for is fair treatment for those people. We know that there are people that come into the country illegally. We'd like to see that stemmed.
DOBBS: So let's talk about some of those pressure points that you're talking about. One of them is privatization. And that is in terms of Social Security. Where is the AFL-CIO?
TRUMKA: First of all, there is no crisis. They've tried to manufacture that so that they could reward a lot of their rich buddies that make contributions to them through privatization. We oppose the privatization of Social Security. We oppose the weakening of Social Security.
Social Security has been the most successful program that this country has ever seen. It keeps more people out of poverty than we've ever seen. But in addition to being an income, a guaranteed income for old age, it also is an insurance program, because millions of workers that have been injured and disabled draw Social Security benefits and survive. They wouldn't have been able to do that.
Privatization takes a guaranteed income and turns it into a guaranteed risk. That's something we're not willing to do with the future of every American out there.
DOBBS: What is going on between labor and the Democratic Party and its foremost personalities?
TRUMKA: We represent a lot of Republicans. Now more often than not we represent Democrats, because more often than not Democrats support working people. That's why we're there.
DOBBS: Right, good point.
TRUMKA: We look at the candidate.
When it comes to trade, Bill Clinton was wrong. He did NAFTA, and we were told it would do a lot of things, none of which have come about. That model, the NAFTA model, has failed. It's resulted in the world's largest trade deficit, a trade deficit that causes us to bring $1.7 billion a day into this country from foreign sources, not to build productive facilities, but to finance consumption and a mortgage.
And so anybody, a Democrat, Republican, independent or anybody else who supports CAFTA, another extension of that failed policy, will be opposed by the AFL-CIO. I don't care what senator it is. I don't care what congressman it is. That's bad policy. It's bad for the country. And it is particularly bad for workers on both sides of the border. We will oppose them.
DOBBS: And some would say, good for the AFL-CIO. I happen to be among those who would say, good for the AFL-CIO. Now the question is...
TRUMKA: We appreciate that.
DOBBS: Is there sufficient power, political power and economic power in the hands of the AFL-CIO today to make that promise, if you will, if not outright threat, stick?
TRUMKA: We'll see. We think so. We think we have the votes on both sides of the aisle to beat CAFTA, and the other 15 or 16 that are lined up behind it. Not because we oppose trade, but because the type of trade that we've been engaging in is bad for this country.
We think we'll do that. We have nearly every Democrat lined up. We have a bunch of Republicans lined up that are going to support us on that, because it's bad policy.
DOBBS: Richard Trumka, we thank you for being here as always.
TRUMKA: Lou, thank you.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: We have now for you a striking comparison, if we can show you this. It's a comparison between the most advantageous exports of a third-world country and those of the world's leading industrial economy. And the point is, each of these contributes mightily to a surplus, whereas other exports, no matter how large the dollar volume, does not create a surplus. Take a look. See if you can figure out which country is which.
The country on the left boasts a nearly $17 billion surplus in computer equipment in its trade. Its surplus of audio and video equipment adds another $12 billion. Technology, industrialization.
And the country on the right enjoys the most advantageous trade position with its exports of waste and scrap and of course, soybeans. Which country is which, would you guess? You guessed it. The United States exports look like those of a third-world country. China's exports look like those of the industrial power that it will soon become, thanks in part to misguided U.S. trade policies.
Still ahead, the results of our poll. You don't want to miss it. Please stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Poll results: 89 percent of you say Congress should not pass the Central American Free Trade Agreement. Please join us here tomorrow. Our "Face-Off," two leading members of Congress will be here to debate CAFTA. And we will also be focusing as well on illegal aliens. Two distinguished members of Congress will be here. We hope you will join us as one Texas official takes on the issue of the Ten Commandments before the Supreme Court. Please be with us.
Good night from New York. "ANDERSON COOPER 360" is next.
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Aired March 1, 2005 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LOU DOBBS, HOST: Tonight, illegal alien invasion. Communities all across this country are battling to control illegal aliens working as day laborers. I'll be talking with a top official about his fight to stop illegal aliens from obtaining U.S. driver's licenses.
And a secret trade agreement. The White House is trying to push a new trade agreement with Central America through Congress as quickly and as quietly as possible. We'll have two opposing views on that agreement tonight.
And is Canada getting a free ride on defense from the United States? Canada spends less on defense than almost any other NATO country. Now it refuses to parts knit in a missile defense system for the whole of North America.
ANNOUNCER: This is Lou Dobbs, for news, debate and opinion tonight.
DOBBS: Good evening.
The Supreme Court today declared that the execution of juvenile murders is unconstitutional. In a 5-4 decision, the high court ruled the execution of juvenile killers violates the Eighth Amendment ban on cruel and unusual punishment. That ruling overturns the death sentences of 72 murderers who were under 18 when they committed their crimes.
Brian Todd reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Christopher Simmons' guilt was never in doubt. He confessed to a horrible crime.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We, the jury, find the defendant, Christopher Simmons, guilty of murder in the first degree.
TODD: In 1993, Simmons and a 14-year-old accomplice convicted of killing their neighbor, Shirley Crook, taken from her home, bound, a towel over her head. She was thrown off a train trestle and drowned in the Merrimack River near St. Louis, a robbery that netted $6.
Simmons was sentenced to death. And at that time, neighbors debated the punishment for the then 17-year-old.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You see that tree over there? That's where they ought to be. That's what I think.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What? Hanging from it?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We think that these kids don't have any idea as to what life is all about. He's lost. He's a lost kid.
TODD: The Supreme Court, just as divided, ruling 5-4 that executing juvenile killers like Simmons is unconstitutional.
Writing the majority opinion, Justice Anthony Kennedy states, quote, "When a juvenile commits a heinous crime, the state can exact forfeiture of some of the most basic liberties, but the state cannot extinguish his life and his potential to attain a mature understanding of his own humanity."
Before the court, Simmons' attorney, Seth Waxman, argued the difference between adolescent and adult judgment.
SETH WAXMAN, ATTORNEY FOR CHRISTOPHER SIMMONS: We argued that 18 is the natural age. It's an age that's reflected almost universally whenever legislatures have to find a dividing line between adolescence and adulthood, for purposes of driving and signing contracts and entering marriage agreements, and things like that.
TODD: The court agreed with Waxman that standards for the juvenile death penalty had evolved since the court ruled in favor of it in 1989.
But in a bitter dissent, Justice Antonin Scalia wrote, "This is no way to run a legal system."
Prosecutors like the one in the county next to where Simmons was tried say the ruling infringes on state's authority to legislate the death penalty and could have more sweeping implications.
ROBERT MCCULLOCH, PROSECUTOR, ST. LOUIS COUNTY, MISSOURI: If their decision is based on the immaturity or the fact they claim, at least, that juveniles are less culpable and therefore should not be subjected to death, how can they possibly justify sending a juvenile to prison for life without parole? That's the real concern. I don't -- I'm afraid they're not going to stop there.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
TODD: for now, Christopher Simmons and more than 70 others who were under 18 at the time of their crimes are no longer on Death Row and states will not be allowed to seek the death penalty for minors in the future -- Lou.
DOBBS: Brian, thank you very much. Brian Todd.
Joining me now from Santa Maria, California, is our senior legal analyst, Jeffrey Toobin.
Jeffrey, how big a decision is this, in your estimation?
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: This is really a remarkable transformation. In 1989, not only the same Supreme Court, but the same nine justices decided this case exactly the opposite way.
Now you have not only 72 people off Death Row immediately, but, you know, this Supreme Court has gone from a very pro-death penalty court to a court that recently banned execution of the mentally retarded, now 16- and 17-year-olds. It's just a different court, even though it's the same people.
DOBBS: The issues, as you point out, are the same. The issue of culpability, as the prosecutor in Brian Todd's report pointed out, with that reasoning, that one has not reached a natural age of reason, that is 18, how can one -- how can the court system put a juvenile criminal behind bars without parole for life?
TOOBIN: You know, I think the Supreme Court has always said death is different, execution is different. I don't think this court is going to have much trouble sustaining life prison sentences without parole.
It's the death penalty that really worries them. It's the finality of that. It's the impossibility of, you know, of fixing a problem if it turns out you've gotten it wrong. I don't think this court is going to have any trouble keeping people in prison for life.
DOBBS: And Jeffrey, one last question. Does the fact that so many revelations of miscarriages of justice, that of people on Death Row, resulting in them being there, do you think that played a part in this decision?
TOOBIN: Huge, Lou. And I think it plays in lots of these death- penalty decisions. The three most important letters in the death penalty alphabet are DNA. The fact that DNA has freed so many wrongfully convicted people has given the entire judicial system a case of the willies. We don't want to execute innocent people. I think that's why the pendulum has swung, not just in this case but in several.
DOBBS: Jeffrey, thank you very much. Jeffrey Toobin joining us, following, of course, the Michael Jackson trial.
Police tonight are investigating the possibility that white supremacists may have been involved in the murders of a federal judge's husband and her mother in Chicago. The federal judge was once the target of a failed murder plot by a white supremacist leader.
Sean Callebs reports now from Chicago -- Sean.
SEAN CALLEBS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Indeed, Lou, heavy police presence outside the home here of U.S. district Judge Joan Lefkow. Judge Lefkow returned to her home late yesterday afternoon, discovering the bodies of her mother, Donna Humphrey, and that of her husband, 65-year-old Michael Lefkow. As you mentioned, judge Lefkow was once the target of a failed murder plot by 33-year-old Matthew Hale, a white supremacist. Hale was convicted in April of 2004 for trying to hire an undercover FBI informant to kill the judge.
Now, Hale is awaiting sentencing for his crimes and authorities are, of course, are looking at a possibility connection between white supremacists and the double killings here, but they stress it is early in the investigation.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHIEF DET. JAMES MALLOW, CHICAGO POLICE: There is much speculation about possible links between this crime and the possible involvement of hate groups. This is but one facet of our investigation. We are looking in many, many directions, but it would be far too early to draw any definitive links.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CALLEBS: Lefkow and her surviving family members are under protection by the U.S. marshal service this evening. And the marshal service is also aiding in the investigation of this crime, along with the Chicago police.
The marshal's office says if, indeed, the family members were killed because of the judge's work on the bench, it would be the first time the family members of a U.S. district judge were killed because of that judge's work.
Now, authorities say that Hale became enraged when Lefkow made a ruling on a case about copyright infringement, saying that Hale could not use the name World Church of the Creator, because another organization already had copyright on that name.
Hale first gained national prominence back in 1999 when one of his supporters, Benjamin Smith, went on a shooting rampage in Indiana and Illinois. He killed two people and wounded nine others before taking his own life as cops moved in.
Authorities say they are looking at the possibility that hate groups could be associated with this crime, but they say they are also looking at other cases that the judge was working on.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DEPUTY SUPT. HIRAM GRAU, CHICAGO POLICE: This case will be solved based on the evidence and the information provided to us by the public. And to that end, we have established a tip line that residents can call if they have any information about this crime.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CALLEBS: Now, the bodies were found in the basement of the home, Lou. Published reports say that authorities found two .22 caliber casings. DOBBS: Sean, let's turn to one thing first of all, and that's a lack of protection for the judge and her family, despite the threats and the obvious attempt to -- to murder her. Why was the federal protection withdrawn?
CALLEBS: Well, the protection was withdrawn because the judge apparently after some time was convinced that, because Hale was in prison. And any communication he has with anybody, only his family apparently only twice a week or so, is very strictly monitored.
And the judge herself said that the police protection, the federal protection was no longer necessary. But of course, as you can see behind me, there is intense protection out here tonight. And of course U.S. marshals are watching her and her surviving members very closely, too.
DOBBS: And the hate groups that are involved, and principally that run by Hale, do we know how large an organization it is, how many people are involved, and to what degree are the members of that organization under surveillance and investigation tonight?
CALLEBS: Well, it's difficult to say the exact size because a certain degree of the communication goes on line in a very clandestine fashion, things of that nature. But Hale certainly a devout white supremacist, has been able to gain the support of his followers, and they've been very emotional in his -- in following his lead.
But whether any of them are associated with this crime, the authorities say at this point it is simply too early to tell. But obviously that's something that all authorities are going to be watching very closely in the coming days and weeks ahead -- Lou.
DOBBS: Thank you, Sean. Sean Callebs reporting from Chicago.
The man accused of being the vicious BTK serial killer today made his first court appearance since his arrest in Wichita, Kansas, last Friday. Dennis Rader, dressed in an orange jumpsuit, made his court appearance in a video link from his jail cell. Rader listened to a judge read out 10 counts of first-degree murder. The court set a preliminary hearing for March 15.
Turning to Washington, the Bush administration today opened a new front in its escalating diplomatic offensive against Syria. A senior administration official declared a Syrian-based terrorist group helped plan last Friday's suicide bombing in Israel. Five people were killed. The United States is also pressing Syria to change its policies toward Lebanon and Iraq.
Senior White House correspondent John King has the report -- John.
JOHN KING, CNN SR. WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Lou, this remarkable effort to isolate Syria, as you know, taking on an added element today. Bush administration officials saying they have "firm evidence" that a group based in Damascus, Syria, the Palestine Islamic Jihad, not only authorized but active planned that suicide bombing in Israel last Friday. Five people killed in that bombing.
The United States believes it was an attempt to disrupt the recent effort by the Palestinians and the Israelis to begin a security and ultimately a dialogue to get them back into peace negotiations. In pointing the blame at a group based in Damascus, the Bush administration continuing its effort to isolate Syria as what it considers to be right now the prime bad actor in the Middle East at a time of hope in the region.
Continuing that effort today the secretary of state, Condoleezza Rice. She was in London for a conference on the Middle East, efforts to bring new help to the Palestinians. Secretary Rice saying yet again that she believes that Syria has helped or at least allowed supporters of the Iraqi insurgency to operate within its borders. Secretary Rice also saying that it is critical that the international community pressure Syria to immediately pull all of its troops and security forces and intelligence forces from Lebanon immediately to allow for free, fair and independent elections in that country as soon as possible.
A similar message back here in Washington. President Bush met on the White House compound with key members of Congress, both Democrats and Republicans, leadership officials, as well as others involved in foreign affairs. You see the president there with Senator Richard Lugar, the chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee. Mr. Bush updating them on his international agenda right now, including the effort to pressure Syria.
After that meeting. Senator Joseph Biden, the ranking Democrat on the Foreign Relations Committee, saying right now there is international pressure on Syria and he believes the president is right to try to intensify it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. JOSEPH BIDEN (D), DELAWARE: The Syrians have been incredibly good at engaging in what Mohammed Ali used to refer to as rope-a-dope. I mean, these guys are very good at that, but they are beginning to be pushed to the ropes here. Their only friend in the region is Iran. The rest of the world should keep the pressure on.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: The Bush administration is voicing confidence it can keep that pressure on, working with France very closely, especially on the issue of Lebanon. U.S. officials says one option at their disposal are additional sanctions against Syria, but they say, Lou, it's a wait-and-see approach right now.
They believe they have the Syrian government under extraordinary international pressure right now. They say the key decision, the next decision for Syria to make is for how quickly it will pull its troops from Lebanon. President Bashar Assad today saying that could happen. He told "TIME" Magazine within a few months. The White House says that is not anywhere near soon enough, that it should happen immediately -- Lou. DOBBS: Not soon enough, rather immediately. To what degree can the White House, the government of the United States, and in this case also France, bring about pressure, political, economic or otherwise, to make Syria move faster?
KING: Well, the immediate goal is to make the Syrian government feel very lonely and feel that it has no support in the region, with the exception of possibly Iran. And, of course, there are diplomatic efforts to pressure Iran as well.
If the diplomatic pressure does not work, the administration says it is prepared to go back to the United Nations Security Council and seek more sanctions, and that the president himself, through an act already passed by Congress and through his executive powers, could impose some additional sanctions. For now, the pressure is on diplomacy. But, Lou, senior administration officials say they will go further if necessary. Again, the president has some sanctions at his disposal, and we could get another debate at the United Nations as well.
DOBBS: Thank you, John. John King, our senior White House correspondent.
Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice today delayed a visit to Canada just days after the Canadian government refused to join the U.S. missile defense system. Critics say Canada simply wants a free ride on defense at the expense of American taxpayers.
Kitty Pilgrim reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KITTY PILGRIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The development of the missile defense shield is a big priority for President Bush, so U.S.-Canada relations hit a rough patch with this statement from Canadian Prime Minister Paul Martin.
PAUL MARTIN, CANADIAN PRIME MINISTER: We are announcing today that Canada will not take part in the proposed ballistic missile system.
PILGRIM: That statement a shocking turnaround. The United States and Canada have pledged shared defense responsibilities of North America for decades, even if the United States picks up most of the tab.
Canada only spends a little more than 1 percent of its GDP on defense, but Canada is protected by massive defense outlays in the United States. But Canadian public opinion opposed the war in Iraq, and now most oppose participation in the U.S. missile shield. So many experts say Paul Martin made the statements for political reasons.
JACK SPENCER, HERITAGE FOUNDATION: At the end of the day, if a ballistic missile comes headed towards Canada, whether they participate or not, the United States will, in all likelihood, intercept that ballistic missile. PILGRIM: Canada has been on the list of first visits for Condoleezza Rice's early weeks in office. But her trip to Canada was suddenly in flux after Canada's announcement.
ADAM ERELI, STATE DEPT. SPOKESMAN: We're working to nail down the logistics for that meeting. And the issue of missile defense is a separate issue.
PILGRIM: The administration today repeatedly denying Condoleezza Rice's planned trip was canceled in irritation over the issue.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: Well, the White House today said rather tersely, "We're going to move on and focus on ways we continue working together with Canada." The previously scheduled meeting with President Bush, President Fox, and Canadian Prime Minister Martin is being billed as a trilateral meeting on shared priorities to discuss common interests. And that meeting is expected to take place later this month -- Lou.
DOBBS: And the reason the secretary of state chose not to go?
PILGRIM: A scheduling issue.
DOBBS: A scheduling issue. Very well.
PILGRIM: Convincing.
DOBBS: Thank you very much, Kitty Pilgrim.
Still ahead here, illegal alien invasion. Day laborers, many of them illegal aliens, are swamping many communities across this country. Now some of those communities are fighting back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Taxpayers in Arizona may not have to pay for day labor centers anymore. Some, in fact, may find it disturbing that taxpayers ever paid for those labor centers because they are largely used by illegal aliens. Now legislation barring taxpayer dollars from going toward the centers is making its way through the Arizona legislature.
Bill Tucker has the report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BILL TUCKER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Should taxpayers pay to help illegal aliens find work? At least one Arizona state representative thinks the answer is an obvious no. She's introduced a bill that would prohibit taxpayer money from building or funding day labor centers in her state.
COLETTE ROSATI (R), ARIZONA STATE REPRESENTATIVE: By the illegals coming here and being encouraged to continue to come here, they're actually depressing the wages and they're hurting the job market for our American citizens. That's just not right to take our taxpayer dollars to hurt our own people.
TUCKER: Day labor centers are not unique to Arizona. Day laborers can be found in California, New York, Connecticut, Florida, literally in states and communities all across the country, many of which have built employment centers in an effort to get the would-be workers off the streets. And those centers create a problem which critics are quick to point out.
DAN STEIN, FAIR: When a state or a community sets up a day labor center, they are spending taxpayer money to actually help somebody who is committing a felony, violating immigration law, seeking illegal employment. They're actually helping harbor that illegal alien and helping him remain here.
TUCKER: And by helping people remain illegally, it creates another problem.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
TUCKER: There's a whole new meaning to the phrase "If you build it, they will come." Or, Lou, at least you create the incentive for them to come.
DOBBS: And that's really the issue here. It is not that illegal aliens, besides the fact they're violating U.S. laws when they do cross that border, but the fact that going unpunished are the corporations, the businesses and individual U.S. citizens who are hiring them, giving them that incentive. And that's the next step in this -- in this fight against what is literally an invasion, or at least it should be.
Bill Tucker, thank you very much.
Coming up next here, how one state is taking action now, trying to stop illegal aliens from obtaining U.S. drivers' licenses. That story is next.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: In just one moment, one state's crackdown on drivers' licenses for illegal aliens. It's being met with a fierce legal battle. The head of New York's Department of Motor Vehicles will be our guest.
Now here are some of the other importance stories that we're following this evening.
Authorities in Florida are scaling back their search for missing 9-year-old Jessica Marie Lunsford. They are using search dogs in the area surrounding the girl's home on the Gulf Coast. She's been missing now for nearly a week.
A huge snowstorm in the Northeast making it different at best for people to get around today, not only on the roads but in the air. Hundreds of flights canceled, schools closed up and down the East Coast.
And millionaire Steve Fossett is making process in his latest adventure through the sky. After a successful takeoff yesterday, Fossett was seen this afternoon flying over Libya at 390 miles an hour, riding the jet stream, of course. He's trying to become the first person to fly an aircraft around the globe without stopping, even to refuel.
In New York State, a crackdown at the Department of Motor Vehicles has uncovered numerous illegal aliens who have obtained illegally drivers' licenses. The DMV is running cross-checks on Social Security numbers to ensure that applicants for drivers' licenses are who they say they are.
A New York judge ordered the DMV to stop the practice, saying it is not authorized to enforce immigration law. That's right, the DMV is appealing the decision.
I'm joined now by Raymond Martinez. He is the commissioner of the New York Department of Motor Vehicles.
Commissioner, it's good to have you with us.
RAYMOND MARTINEZ, NEW YORK DMV COMMISSIONER: Thank you very much.
DOBBS: The idea that a judge would stop you from doing what seems only rational, do you believe this can stand?
MARTINEZ: Well, of course I'm limited in what I can speak about in that litigation, but we believe we're that acting pursuant to law, even in terms of just enforcing our traffic safety laws. What we uncovered was 250,000 people that were using fraudulent Social Security numbers to obtain drivers' licenses.
DOBBS: Incredible.
MARTINEZ: And that is not good for traffic safety enforcement or for public security.
DOBBS: And how far had you got into the cross-checking process when the temporary restraining order was issued by the judge?
MARTINEZ: We were about 7,000 suspensions into the process. We have cross-checked everyone. We have contacted everyone on that list. The next step really is just the suspension.
DOBBS: And this decision, you expect it when on the part of the judge?
MARTINEZ: We actually were in court today.
DOBBS: Right.
MARTINEZ: She has reserved decision. It could -- we could have a decision this evening or tomorrow. But under any circumstances we will be before the appellate division on the 29th of this month.
DOBBS: And what has been the reaction to you, your department's efforts for do what is the rational, responsible thing under any semblance of adherence to state law and guidelines?
MARTINEZ: Well, I must tell you, we've received -- I'm grateful to have received a lot of support, particularly from family members of 9/11 victims here in New York. That is very important to us.
But the general public also has been very understanding. They know it takes a little bit more time to get a driver's license, and they've been willing to put up with it, because they understand it's a post-9/11 world and they under the security nature of these documents.
DOBBS: The security nature, the very idea that we have illegal aliens -- and I think it is a fair statement on the part of those who advocate open borders and amnesty -- although I'm opposed to both -- I think it is a fair statement for them to say that illegal aliens do contribute, at least at the margin, to our economy. But the idea that those two arguments, contribution to the economy and the suggestion that there is some sort of racism built into the issue, is mind- boggling to me.
MARTINEZ: Well, that's correct. And in New York State, at least, you know, the legislature has not spoken to the issue specifically of legal status to get a license, pro or con.
The fact is that our effort is strictly within the purview of a Department of Motor Vehicle. We require current, valid and verifiable documents before we issue that New York State driver's license or non- driver I.D.
It has nothing to do with whether they're legal or illegal. And if they can't meet that standard, that's not our problem. The fact is we have also caught up with numerous people who are perfectly legal U.S. residents that were balancing, juggling multiple drivers' licenses, avoiding child support, court-ordered child support, and other issues.
DOBBS: Right. And the judge, it seems in this case, it seems to me, at least, that every judge should understand that a driver's license is prima facie evidence of citizenship. And in point of fact, may by de facto citizenship. Because that -- if you have that valid New York State drivers license, or any other states drivers license, that's your key to the kingdom.
MARTINEZ: No question about it, particularly the New York State driver's license, which has always had a high degree of security in its issuance. But even our system, which we believe was very secure, the document itself very secure, it was compromised. We knew it, and the most important tool that we received after 9/11 was being able to cross-check the social security numbers. And we found exactly what we knew we were going to find -- hundreds of thousands of people that scam the system.
And for what reason... DOBBS: And not just the illegal aliens.
MARTINEZ: That's precisely the point. And so, you know, we're in the unenviable position of some people to ask us to differentiate between illegal aliens who they say are harmless or whatever, and people who are intent on perhaps causing terrorist acts in the United States, or at the very least causing credit card fraud, avoiding, as I said, child support obligations. And even from a purely traffic safety perspective, we had 500 taxi drivers in New York City that had three or more licenses. And the reason they were doing that, was so that they kept one clean for the DMV, and for their insurance purposes. And all the others is where they racked up DWI's, crashes, speeding, et cetera. That's unacceptable.
DOBBS: Unacceptable. And creates even greater cost and burdens for society, because those who play by the rules pay for the price.
Commissioner Ray Martinez, we thank you for being here. We wish you all the best of luck luck.
MARTINEZ: Thank you very much.
DOBBS: Thank you.
"Tonight's Thought" is on this country, on America. "There will be no greater burden on our generation than to organize the forces of liberty in our time in order to make our quest of a new freedom for America."
Taking a look now at some of "Your Thoughts"
Jim Strasen of Marion, Iowa wrote in to say, "I do not understand how anyone in their right mind can call CAFTA or NAFTA free trade agreements. When the average American makes dollars per hour, and the average Mexican or person from Central America makes cents per hour, there cannot be free trade. CAFTA will only cost more average Americans their jobs, and continue to make big business billions of dollars."
Sandra in Tennessee, "American jobs continue to be outsourced and now CAFTA is heating up. This is going to be a country of two groups: the haves an the have nots. I recently retired from a 30 year career with an international manufacturing corporation and consider myself part of the middle class. However, I know I am sliding downhill almost daily."
Sally Lasater in Houston, Texas, "Lou, companies in the United States won't stop outsourcing jobs until the lines waiting to buy cheap goods are Wal-Mart stop forming. Want to change things? Stop the middle Class from buying these cheap Chinese goods."
And Terry Tucker in Fayetteville, North Carolina wrote in about our reports on protecting Iraqi police stations from insurgent attacks. "There is no excuse to have police recruits standing outdoors two years after we learn that is an insurgent target. Has anyone at the Pentagon ever heard of an appointment book or a tick of admission?"
We love hearing "Your Thoughts." We really do, so please send them to us at loudobbs@cnn.com.
Many of us watch, read or listen to weather reports to know what to expect in the hours or days to come. As we know those forecasts aren't always completely reliable. But the Mayor Moscow wants to hold weather men accountable for those forecast. Now the mayor may be on to something. The major wants to fine the city-funded weathermen when their forecasts turn out to be wrong. That move comes after the weather service failed to report exactly when a January blizzard would hit, and how much snow it would bring. Moscow's mayor has gone even further in the past, trying to control the weather himself. Before major events in the city, he has spent thousands of dollars to douse clouds with dry ice and liquid nitrogen. That's so the clouds dump all their rain before hitting the city.
Coming up next, a living battle over yet another so called free trade agreement. Why some say Congress will be the death of CAFTA. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Tonight our special report on the controversial Central American Free Trade Agreement, it's known as CAFTA. The White House brokered the deal with six countries in Central America and was going to push it before Congress last year, but the political season being what it was and the presidential race coming on as it was, it delayed. Now it wants Congress to move as soon as possible, and as quietly as possible. But many lawmakers are now wary from NAFTA and our exploding trade deficits.
They're more than skeptical, As Lisa Sylvester now reports from Washington.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LISA SYLVESTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The U.S./Australian Trade Agreement sailed through Congress last year with no problems, but CAFTA, the Central American Free Trade Agreement is expected to be a knockdown, drag out fight in Congress later this year. Many lawmakers are souring on new trade agreements.
REP. SANDER LEVIN (D), MICHIGAN: More and more there's a realization that you just can't say expanded trade, willy nilly. You have to look at its impact, its content as it's shaped.
SYLVESTER: That view is gaining in Congress, and it's why CAFTA is in trouble. Lawmakers can point to a 10-year record on NAFTA, the North American Free Trade Agreement. Hundreds of thousands of jobs lost, and a record $618 billion trade deficit. The exporting of American jobs has also made it harder for many Republicans to support the trade deal.
ERNEST BAYNARD, AMERICANS FOR FAIR TRADE: In the first time away, when people were touting NAFTA, they proclaimed it would be this great economic boon for farmers and workers. NAFTA has not turned out that way. I think NAFTA has a very negative legacy, and a history of failed promises.
SYLVESTER: Lawmakers will not be able to make any changes to the existing CAFTA accord, they will only vote yes or no. Even CAFTA proponents fear there will be more no votes than yes.
BILL FRENZEL, BROOKINGS INSTITUTE: It will be a squeaker, because the forces arrayed against it are working very hard now.
SYLVESTER: Bush administration officials delayed bringing CAFTA to Congress last year. They didn't have enough votes, the same reason they haven't brought it forth this year.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SYLVESTER: CAFTA could shape the rest of President Bush's trade agenda. A growing shift away from trade liberalization could also affect upcoming votes on continuing membership in the World Trade Organization, and whether to extend fast-track authority -- Lou.
DOBBS: Big issues indeed. Lisa Sylvester, thank you very much.
We want to hear your thoughts on CAFTA on "Tonight's Poll." And the question is, do you believe Congress should pass the Central American Free Trade Agreement, yes or no. Cast your votes at loudobbs.com. We'll have the results for you later here in the broadcast.
Another poll of a different time, a new UBS Survey showing investors are happy for the most part, but three of the top concerns for investors right now are issues that we've been covering extensively on this broadcast. Four out of five investors surveyed now say they're worried about the outsourcing of American jobs to cheap foreign labor markets, and our soaring federal budget deficit.
And two thirds say the flood of illegal aliens into this country is, in their opinion, hurting our economy.
Why my next guest says CAFTA will actually protect American jobs, be good for the American economy, NAFTA notwithstanding. The leading proponent for CAFTA is my guest here in just a moments. Please stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: We've reported extensively here of course on the so- called free trade policies of both this administration and the previous. We're reported on our record trade deficit. We have reported on a number of issues surrounding the economic well-being of this country and the pressures that are being created on American workers.
We've also reported on the Central American Free Trade Agreement now for some time and how it will affect Americans. Critics of CAFTA say it will have the same effect on this country as NAFTA, which was signed back in 1993. Many blame NAFTA for the loss of nearly a million American jobs. My next guest, however, is not among them. He is the assistant U.S. trade representative, and he says CAFTA will actually protect jobs in the United States. Joining me now from Washington, D.C. is Representative Christopher Padilla. Good to have you with us.
CHRISTOPHER PADILLA, ASSISTANT U.S. TRADE REP.: Thank you, Lou. Appreciate the chance.
DOBBS: Let me ask you, first, the delay in bringing CAFTA forward to Congress, now delayed again. Does the president have the votes at this point in your judgment?
PADILLA: The president is a strong supporter of CAFTA. I think as we have the chance to get the word out about what this trade agreement means, and more importantly what it doesn't mean, I'm confident that we'll get the support in Congress, and I know that we're going to push forward in the next weeks and months to do that.
DOBBS: And with that confidence, what's it based on? Because NAFTA right now is being deemed a failure from many of the same people in the Republican Party supporting the president, looking at 10 years' experience and saying, this is not working the way we intended. It is not working to the advantage of American citizens. How do you construct an argument for CAFTA that will be persuasive?
PADILLA: Well, I don't agree with the characterization of NAFTA, but I would say that while CAFTA rhymes with NAFTA, the similarity pretty much ends there.
DOBBS: An unfortunate rhyme.
PADILLA: Well, maybe we would have named it something differently had we thought about it, but the important thing, Lou, is we already have free trade with Central America. In fact, we've had it for a decade, but it's one-way free trade. I think a lot of folks don't realize that under a program started in the '80s and expanded by President Clinton, about 80 percent of what we import from Central America today comes into this country duty-free.
DOBBS: Right.
PADILLA: And what this trade agreement does is it opens their markets to our products. And so for those like you and many of your viewers who are concerned about the trade deficit, this is the kind of trade agreement that levels the playing field that I hope you'll support.
DOBBS: Well, let's go -- let's move toward that support, and just give me a sense of a couple of things. One, as you point out, free trade has meant for too long for this country, for this administration in my opinion and the previous as well, that we open up our, the world's largest, richest consumer market to whomever we want to target, whether it be the Chinese or whether it be Central America.
To what degree will this redress our trade deficit if we do -- if we were to sign CAFTA and put it into law? How would it improve it? Is there -- have you got a model and a number?
PADILLA: Well, these are small countries, Lou, but they're actually very big markets for our exports. In fact, we trade more with Central America than we trade with Brazil or with Australia.
As the president says, you know, it's easy to trade into America. What we want to do is make sure that others open their markets so that we can sell them our products and services.
I watched your program last night. You had a farmer on from Iowa, who's concerned about CAFTA. And I wonder what that farmer would say if he knew that 99 percent of farm products coming in from Central America today are duty-free, but if he grows corn or soybeans or hogs or cattle, he has to pay pretty hefty tariffs on those things in Central America. So we probably won't agree on a lot of trade agreements, Lou, but on this one, I think we are leveling the playing field, and I think that's a strong argument for it.
DOBBS: If indeed the result is to level the playing field, I couldn't be more supportive. As you point out, right now it's hardly that. The degree to which CAFTA can redress that, you know, it's an open-ended question obviously at this point, and Congress will resolve that.
You know, you once referred to this broadcast, particularly me, implying that I'm something of a protectionist, and I just want to set the record straight, between you and me, just you and me, no one else, I'm neither a protectionist or an economic isolationist as the administration has tried to brand me. I want to see healthy, mutual, balanced trade.
I have to ask you, in that sense, what is this administration? Because if -- I for the life of me cannot understand why we continue to pursue policies that for 20 years have resulted in deficits, and we're a country now approaching $4 trillion in external trade debt. When are we going to redress what is a clear deficit and a clear and I think present danger to the well-being of this economy?
PADILLA: Well, Lou, we agree with you, that we want to have fair and balanced trade. We believe that Americans can compete with anybody in the world when they're given a fair chance to compete. And that's why the president wants to open foreign markets, because, as you said, our market is largely open, and certainly that's the case with Central America.
Now, with regard to the trade deficit, one way we can try to attack that is by opening new opportunities for our exporters, but it's also important to recognize that we have a strong and growing economy. American consumers buy a lot of things from the world, because we're doing well. I wish we could get other economies to grow as fast, Europe and Japan especially.
DOBBS: I agree with you.
PADILLA: That is very important, and we feel the same way about developing economies, like Brazil and China and others. We want them to buy more of our products. So, I think we agree on the goals, Lou. Perhaps we disagree on individual trade agreements, but we certainly want to do what's right for American workers and farmers.
DOBBS: Well, absolutely, and every working man and woman in this country, I'm sure.
PADILLA: Absolutely.
DOBBS: Assistant Trade Representative Chris Padilla, we thank you for being here. We hope you'll come back soon. We would be delighted to have an exchange of views anytime on any subject.
PADILLA: Thank you.
DOBBS: Give you every shot. We'll even bring back the gentleman, the farmer in Iowa. The three of us might have a conversation here one of these days if you're up for that.
PADILLA: I think that would be an interesting conversation. Thank you, Lou.
DOBBS: You got it. Thank you very much, sir.
Coming up next, our nation's labor leaders are planning to take on the growing dominance of corporate America in our economy, and our political system, and our society. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Tonight the AFL-CIO, the nation's largest labor union, is holding its annual meeting, trying to revitalize both itself and the struggling national labor movement.
I talked earlier with the AFL-CIO's number two official about how organized labor in its present weakened condition will be able to be an effective countervailing influence against the overwhelming dominance of corporate America.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
RICHARD TRUMKA, AFL-CIO SECRETARY TREASURER: We're going to draw on what has always been our greatest strength, and that's unity, and try to bring everybody in the labor movement together, and then build the alliances that we've always had in the past.
Just last year, Lou, we brought in 800,000 people into an organization called Working America, that really aren't part of collective bargaining. But they want a voice in the economy. They know that they are losing their pensions. They know they are losing their health care. They know that they are losing their ability and their future, so they want to have a voice. So they've joined together with us. That's the nascence, the beginning of a real organization and an alliance which we can spread.
DOBBS: Organized labor has sent out so many confusing signals. At a time when illegal immigration is contributing to depressed wages for working men and women in this country, about $200 billion a year, the AFL-CIO supporting open borders and amnesty. That's a tough message to reconcile with representing U.S. citizen workers.
TRUMKA: Well, first of all, let's look at those workers. Many of those workers that you just referred to have been in this country for three or four or five years. They've been producing, they've been paying taxes, but they get take advantage of.
What we don't want to see is government allow or corporate America actually facilitate workers coming into this country and then exploiting them. What we're asking for is fair treatment for those people. We know that there are people that come into the country illegally. We'd like to see that stemmed.
DOBBS: So let's talk about some of those pressure points that you're talking about. One of them is privatization. And that is in terms of Social Security. Where is the AFL-CIO?
TRUMKA: First of all, there is no crisis. They've tried to manufacture that so that they could reward a lot of their rich buddies that make contributions to them through privatization. We oppose the privatization of Social Security. We oppose the weakening of Social Security.
Social Security has been the most successful program that this country has ever seen. It keeps more people out of poverty than we've ever seen. But in addition to being an income, a guaranteed income for old age, it also is an insurance program, because millions of workers that have been injured and disabled draw Social Security benefits and survive. They wouldn't have been able to do that.
Privatization takes a guaranteed income and turns it into a guaranteed risk. That's something we're not willing to do with the future of every American out there.
DOBBS: What is going on between labor and the Democratic Party and its foremost personalities?
TRUMKA: We represent a lot of Republicans. Now more often than not we represent Democrats, because more often than not Democrats support working people. That's why we're there.
DOBBS: Right, good point.
TRUMKA: We look at the candidate.
When it comes to trade, Bill Clinton was wrong. He did NAFTA, and we were told it would do a lot of things, none of which have come about. That model, the NAFTA model, has failed. It's resulted in the world's largest trade deficit, a trade deficit that causes us to bring $1.7 billion a day into this country from foreign sources, not to build productive facilities, but to finance consumption and a mortgage.
And so anybody, a Democrat, Republican, independent or anybody else who supports CAFTA, another extension of that failed policy, will be opposed by the AFL-CIO. I don't care what senator it is. I don't care what congressman it is. That's bad policy. It's bad for the country. And it is particularly bad for workers on both sides of the border. We will oppose them.
DOBBS: And some would say, good for the AFL-CIO. I happen to be among those who would say, good for the AFL-CIO. Now the question is...
TRUMKA: We appreciate that.
DOBBS: Is there sufficient power, political power and economic power in the hands of the AFL-CIO today to make that promise, if you will, if not outright threat, stick?
TRUMKA: We'll see. We think so. We think we have the votes on both sides of the aisle to beat CAFTA, and the other 15 or 16 that are lined up behind it. Not because we oppose trade, but because the type of trade that we've been engaging in is bad for this country.
We think we'll do that. We have nearly every Democrat lined up. We have a bunch of Republicans lined up that are going to support us on that, because it's bad policy.
DOBBS: Richard Trumka, we thank you for being here as always.
TRUMKA: Lou, thank you.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: We have now for you a striking comparison, if we can show you this. It's a comparison between the most advantageous exports of a third-world country and those of the world's leading industrial economy. And the point is, each of these contributes mightily to a surplus, whereas other exports, no matter how large the dollar volume, does not create a surplus. Take a look. See if you can figure out which country is which.
The country on the left boasts a nearly $17 billion surplus in computer equipment in its trade. Its surplus of audio and video equipment adds another $12 billion. Technology, industrialization.
And the country on the right enjoys the most advantageous trade position with its exports of waste and scrap and of course, soybeans. Which country is which, would you guess? You guessed it. The United States exports look like those of a third-world country. China's exports look like those of the industrial power that it will soon become, thanks in part to misguided U.S. trade policies.
Still ahead, the results of our poll. You don't want to miss it. Please stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Poll results: 89 percent of you say Congress should not pass the Central American Free Trade Agreement. Please join us here tomorrow. Our "Face-Off," two leading members of Congress will be here to debate CAFTA. And we will also be focusing as well on illegal aliens. Two distinguished members of Congress will be here. We hope you will join us as one Texas official takes on the issue of the Ten Commandments before the Supreme Court. Please be with us.
Good night from New York. "ANDERSON COOPER 360" is next.
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