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Lou Dobbs Tonight

Will Bush Give Hezbollah a Chance?; Illegal Aliens Busted for Arms Trading; Bayh's Anti-Outsourcing Act

Aired March 15, 2005 - 18:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


LOU DOBBS, HOST: Tonight, Bush's radical challenge. President Bush offers a radical Islamist group linked to one of the most deadly terrorist assaults against Americans a chance to enter the political mainstream.
Terrorist plot. Federal agents smash an alleged plot to smuggle weapons into the United States and sell them to terrorists. And yes, most of the accused plotters are illegal aliens.

And America the vulnerable: shocking weaknesses in our border security and enforcement of our immigration laws. A leading terrorism expert joins us tonight. I'll also be talking with the congressman who is trying to make it much more difficult for terrorists to ever obtain a U.S. driver's license.

ANNOUNCER: This is Lou Dobbs for news, debate and opinion, tonight.

DOBBS: Good evening tonight from Washington.

Also ahead here, guilty as charged. Former WorldCom CEO Bernard Ebbers is convicted for his role in the biggest corporate fraud in U.S. history.

And no sweat, a rising number of communities across this country are now fighting to protect Americans from sweatshop conditions and the flood of cheap imports from overseas market.

And securing your future, Senator Chuck Hagel wants to enlighten me tonight about his plan to reform Social Security. Tonight, Senator Hagel has his opportunity. He's our guest.

And an extraordinary challenge tonight from President Bush to one of the Middle East's most violent and feared radical Islamist terrorist groups. President Bush called upon Hezbollah to prove it is not a terrorist organization by joining the political mainstream in Lebanon.

The United States has classified Hezbollah as a terrorist organization. For many years, that has been the view of U.S. policy. Hezbollah is blamed for a bomb attack on a U.S. Marines barracks in Beirut 22 years ago. Two-hundred-forty troops were killed.

Senior White House correspondent John King reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) JOHN KING, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): In the Oval Office, trying to balance Hezbollah's bloody history with the reality of its political clout in Lebanon.

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We view Hezbollah as a terrorist organization. And I would hope that Hezbollah would prove that they're not by laying down arms and not threatening peace.

KING: Meeting with Jordan's King Abdullah, the president was upbeat about change in the Middle East. Hezbollah's role in Lebanon is part of a defining challenge for a president who, on the one hand, is encouraging democracy, but on the other prefers a black and white, us versus them, approach to terrorists.

SHIBLEY TELHAMI, BROOKINGS INSTITUTION: The magnitude of the problem is greater now, because of the focus on the democracy, and the U.S. simply cannot backtrack on that. And what's happening is that a lot of the Islamist groups in a way are exploiting that opening to empower themselves and then the U.S. is going to be faced with a very major choice to make very soon.

KING: Hezbollah is blamed for the 1983 Marine barracks and embassy bombing in Beirut that killed 241 Americans, and Israel says it runs terror cells in the Palestinian territories responsible for suicide bombings against Israelis.

BUSH: One of our concerns the Majesty and I discussed is that Hezbollah may try to derail the peace process between Israel and the Palestinians.

KING: But this massive pro-Syria, anti-U.S. rally in Beirut last week was also a vivid display of Hezbollah's political power. Though the administration clearly hopes other political groups are bigger players in Lebanon's May elections.

SCOTT MCCLELLAN, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: Experience shows that when people are given the opportunity to choose their leaders, they tend to choose people who are committed to improving their lives, not terrorists.

KING: But the softer language from the president and other senior officials in recent days reflects the reality that, like it or not, Hezbollah could be a significant force in Lebanon's next government.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KING: Now, the Bush administration obviously cringes at that prospect but will deal with it if it has to later. The overwhelming emphasis here now is on making sure Syria fully withdraws its troops and its intelligence personnel from Lebanon before the May elections. As officials here put it here, Lou, one difficult challenge at a time.

DOBBS: John, what has been the reaction, the early reaction from Capitol Hill toward the White House announcement? KING: Well, you have people on Capitol Hill already trying to put more pressure on Hezbollah, including trying to convince the European Union to make Hezbollah -- to designate Hezbollah a terrorist organization.

So this is going to cause quite a bit of tension, most -- most importantly with the key defenders of Israel in the Congress. But most of the people we talked to, diplomats associated with Israel and members of Congress, understand the bind the president is in. They wish, though, Lou, that his language was tougher publicly.

DOBBS: And John, there's word tonight that Italy, a key member of the coalition, is planning to begin withdrawing its troops from Iraq beginning in September. Any reaction from the White House?

KING: Well, the White House is insisting that they do not think this has any direct connection at all to that shooting incident in Iraq, U.S. troops opening fire on that Italian journalist who had been released after being a hostage in Iraq. U.S. officials saying that publicly.

Privately, though, officials concede Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi under tremendous political pressure in his country. The war in Iraq and his decision to send troops there already was unpopular.

He has announced he will start drawing down the 3,000 Italian troops in September. What they worry about here, Lou, is that this will send a green light to other smaller members of the coalition in Iraq. U.S. officials say it simply raises the pressure yet again to speed up and accelerate the training of Iraqi security forces.

DOBBS: Thank you, John, our senior White House correspondent.

Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice today declared she is concerned about China's military buildup. Secretary Rice is the latest of several top U.S. officials to express their concern about the rapid modernization and expansion of China's military.

Speaking in the Indian capital of New Delhi, Rice said China's rising spending is disturbing because it coincides with escalating tensions over Taiwan. Secretary Rice is on a six-nation trip to Asia. She arrives in China on Sunday.

We report here extensively about the danger posed by illegal aliens, the danger that illegal aliens might infiltrate this country as terrorists and commit acts of terrorism or help terrorists already here. Tonight there's stunning evidence that those fears are justified.

Federal agents have charged 18 people, many of them illegal aliens, with allegedly trying to smuggle Russian-made military weapons into the United States.

Kitty Pilgrim reports from New York.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KITTY PILGRIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Eighteen men of different nationalities targeted in a roundup in New York, Los Angeles, and Fort Lauderdale, charged in a Manhattan courthouse today with weapons trafficking. They are predominantly Armenian, Russian, and Georgian. Many of them are illegal aliens.

They peddled rocket-launchers, shoulder-fired, surface-to-air missiles and other lethal weapons, selling whatever they could, promising more. They displayed their wares on a web site.

ANDY ARENA, FBI: They were just doing business. If the buyers of the weapons had money, the defendants -- the defendants did not care how the buyers planned to use the weapons.

PILGRIM: Their buyer said he was a arms dealer for a terrorist group. He was not. He was an informant for the government. For a year, the FBI monitored 15,000 phone calls, observed and recovered deliveries of some arms from storage facilities.

COMMISSIONER RAY KELLY, NEW YORK POLICE DEPARTMENT: This is the age-old story of people doing anything for money. They were interested in money. There was no ideology here.

PILGRIM: Ring leader Artur Solomonyan and his accomplices promised more, even at one point mentioning enriched uranium, which he said could be used in the New York subway system.

The defendants promised rocket-propelled grenades and shoulder- fired air missiles. All, they said, could be obtained from Eastern European and Russian military sources.

Then last night, in a Manhattan hotel, a sting operation. They were lured by the promise of green cards.

DAVID KELLEY, U.S. ATTORNEY: The defendants Spies and Solomonyan indicating to the C.I., look, "We have these -- we have these arms in these pictures. We're ready to make the deal. In order for us to close the deal, we have to go overseas. The problem is that we're illegal aliens. If we want to travel, we need some sort of papers. We need green cards."

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PILGRIM: Many of the promised weapons never made it into the states. Federal officials emphasize there was never any uranium. But assault rifles, including an Uzi and AK-47 were delivered to storage facilities in New York, Los Angeles and Fort Lauderdale -- Lou.

DOBBS: A success in the fight against terrorism. Thank you very much, Kitty Pilgrim from New York.

My guest tonight says terrorist organizations have a sophisticated understanding of our entire immigration system, and they know how to exploit our porous borders. Janice Kephart is the former counsel to the 9/11 Commission. She is an expert on terrorist travel. In testimony before the Senate yesterday Kephart declared, "We must upgrade our border system now. Our current system sets the bar far too low for terrorists trying to enter the United States."

Janice Kephart joins us here now. Good to have us with us.

JANICE KEPHART, FORMER COUNSEL TO 9/11 COMMISSION: Thank you, Lou.

DOBBS: Let's start with another statement that you made yesterday. You said effective border security is perhaps our best hope of preventing another terrorist attack on American soil. How would you describe the state of border security in this country?

KEPHART: Well, I think we've made some strides. We do have biometrics. We take fingerprints and photographs at the ports of entry now. That's an improvement.

But we have sufficient fragmentation within the Department of Homeland Security. We have not brought all of our immigration apparatus together. We don't have a cohesive policymaking, and so I think at our ports of entry we are seeing problems come up as a result of that.

DOBBS: Biometrics, various other improvements in border security, technologically...

KEPHART: Yes.

DOBBS: ... most of them are totally dependent upon those people entering this country being law-abiding as they cross the border.

KEPHART: That's correct.

DOBBS: We know that an estimated three million illegal aliens crossed our border last year, Janice. Is there any way in the world that the Department of Homeland Security, this administration, this Congress or anyone in the federal government can claim that we have border security in this country?

KEPHART: I think we have a really long way to go to get there. One of the things that I did not discuss yesterday in my testimony was something that dovetails very well with things that Deputy Secretary Loy and FBI Director Mueller have been saying about infiltration from the Southwest.

DOBBS: Right.

KEPHART: When I was on the commission, I became privy to an open source alert to the Border Patrol that's about a year-and-a-half old now that said the Colombian FARC was meeting with al Qaeda in Madrid, Spain, and their interest was in acquiring Mexican Islamic converts to come through the Southwest border.

DOBBS: Oh my gosh.

KEPHART: So that is a troublesome piece of information that dovetails very much with what we have been hearing lately on the Hill.

DOBBS: And that kind of -- obviously that's concerning to all of us. The fact that we have not -- and as you point out, border security is the first line of defense against -- and the best hope for preventing a terrorist attack.

You are also sophisticated in the ways of this town, this government. Three-and-a-half years after 9/11, the commission that you counseled and served on, how could any public official, any public servant, any elected official in this country be sanguine about the vulnerability of this country right now?

KEPHART: Well, I think what we need to do is be educated on what terrorist travel is, be educated to the fact that terrorists have been thoughtful about our vulnerabilities and willing to exploit them. And willing to exploit whatever vulnerabilities we have, whether they be in our immigration benefits system. They have sought political asylum, they have sought naturalization, they get it time and again.

We need to be cognizant of abroad. They're seeking visas or they're seeking bad documents to try to infiltrate the U.S. with -- on false identities. They will do anything that they can to get here.

DOBBS: And in that testimony, Janice Kephart cited two examples, one across the Canadian border, the other across the Mexican border of terrorists who were apprehended after having violated our borders.

Janice Kephart, I hope you'll come back with us here. We'd like to hear far more of your views on this critically important subject to all of us and to the nation.

KEPHART: I would love to. Thank you, Lou.

DOBBS: Thank you, Janice Kephart.

New concerns tonight about a possible anthrax attack right here in Washington, D.C. A second test at a Pentagon mail facility has come back positive for anthrax. Earlier results at that facility were negative.

Scientists are carrying out more detailed tests tonight. Officials stress the positive anthrax results are still only preliminary. The Pentagon, however, closed the mail facility after sensors detected the deadly bacteria yesterday.

In France, a court has sentenced a radical Islamist terrorist to 10 years in prison for plotting a suicide bomb attack against the U.S. embassy in Paris. The court jailed five accomplices for between one and nine years. Prosecutors said the plot to attack the U.S. embassy was planned with a top al Qaeda terrorist in Afghanistan.

In the Philippines, please killed four radical Islamist leaders and 18 other prisoners when they revolted at a Manila jail. Police said the revolt was organized by the radical Islamist linked to the al Qaeda terrorist network. The Filipino president spokesman said, "The terrorists got what was coming to them."

Still ahead here, a verdict in the trial of former WorldCom CEO Bernard Ebbers for his role in what was the biggest corporate fraud in U.S. history.

And no sweat. A rising numbers of communities and cities across this country are now fighting back against the flood of imports from cheap overseas labor markets, and they're working to stop sweatshop conditions in U.S. cities.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: WorldCom's founder and former Chief Executive Officer Bernard Ebbers today convicted on all nine counts for his role in the largest corporate fraud in American history. Ebbers has repeatedly said he is not to blame for the rampant accounting fraud that destroyed WorldCom. Today a jury in a federal court in New York disagreed.

Christine Romans reports from New York.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Bernie Ebbers, from small-town Mississippi coach, to telecom titan, to convicted felon. The former WorldCom chief now faces the possibility of spending the rest of his life in prison. His attorney says he will appeal.

REID WEINGARTEN, EBBERS' ATTORNEY: I'm extremely disappointed. I know Mr. Ebbers and I know the evidence in this case. And I was extremely hopeful that he would be vindicated. And the fight continues.

ROMANS: It's a big win for the government in the fight against corporate crime. The attorney general called the verdict "a triumph of our legal system."

Ebbers built WorldCom through dozens of acquisitions in the heyday of the 1990s, and his vast personal wealth was tied up in WorldCom stock and company loans. As the telecom market softened, he instructed his finance staff to hit the numbers at any cost, and an $11 billion fraud unfolded.

For that fraud Ebbers has lost his freedom. More than 20,000 WorldCom employees lost their jobs; $600 million in pension money disappeared, and investors lost hundreds of millions more.

Ebbers testified he wasn't to blame, that he doesn't understand finance and accounting. Instead, the jury believed star witness Scott Sullivan, a former finance chief who pleaded guilty to fraud in exchange for lenience, a witness the defense tried to discredit as an adulterer and drug user. BARRY BERKE, KRAMER LEVIN: There certainly seems to be a resounding defeat of the so-called CEO defense, where the CEO is claiming that he's so far removed from the details that he can't be held responsible for whatever fraud took place by the underlings.

ROMANS: The verdict a powerful signal to other disgraced CEOs awaiting trial.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ROMANS: Lou, very early on as WorldCom was unraveling, the chairman of the Securities and Exchange Commission perhaps said it best. Harvey Pitt said, "This isn't a mistake. In Brooklyn, it's called fraud." Tonight, Pitt says he's gratified this jury agreed -- Lou.

DOBBS: Thank you very much, Christine. In Manhattan, as well as Brooklyn, it turns out. Christine Romans reporting from New York.

As we've reported extensively here, countries such as China use unfair and often inhumane labor practices in order to gain competitive advantage in world trade. Now state and local governments all across this country are taking action to protect American workers from similar conditions. A movement called SweatFree Communities is promoting new legislation, and that movement is gaining momentum.

Lisa Sylvester reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

LISA SYLVESTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Eric Odier-Fink and his wife are preparing to reopen a clothing shop in Bangor, Maine. His store, Justice Clothing, has a twist. Everything sold is union made.

ERIC ODIER-FINK, JUSTICE CLOTHING: The union label guarantees that these people have decent pay, they have benefits, they have job protection and security. And that's -- and that's really what matters.

SYLVESTER: Justice Clothing, which also retails online, is part of a movement called SweatFree Communities. The organization has convinced at least five states and dozens of cities and municipalities, including Los Angeles, to pass some type of SweatFree law. Local governments agree to buy products from only contractors who pledge to pay their workers a fair wage, limit work hours and allow the employees to form a union.

BJORN CLAESON, SWEATFREE COMMUNITIES: These laws are actually filtering out the worst of the abusers who don't want to sign a code of conduct or don't want to publicly disclose where their factories are located from submitting bids to state and local governments.

SYLVESTER: Connecticut is the latest state to consider mandating SweatFree rules for all state-purchased apparel, including police uniforms and University of Connecticut paraphernalia. MATT BATES, UNION LABEL SERVICE TRADERS, AFL-CIO: The more that you see these global trends accelerating with sweatshop labor, with exploitation of children, with the outsourcing and hemorrhaging of good jobs, you see increased concern on the part of consumers.

SYLVESTER: Studies have shown that many consumers are willing to spend a little more to ensure fair labor conditions.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SYLVESTER: And three separate studies by Maryland University, Marymount University and the National Bureau of Economic Research found that 76 to 86 percent of consumers surveyed were willing to pay more for products made under fair working conditions. That certainly makes a strong case that there are a number of conscientious consumers out there -- Lou.

DOBBS: Millions of them, in point of fact. And millions of consumers who now understand those prices are related to wages. And everyone in this country wants to make a living wage.

Thank you very much, Lisa Sylvester. Fascinating report.

Well, coming up next here, keeping drivers' licenses out of the hands of illegal aliens and reforming our asylum laws. The Senate will soon have to decide whether it supports the Real ID Act. The courageous author of that legislation, House Judiciary Chairman Congressman James Sensenbrenner is our guest here next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: In a moment, the Senate is forced to address the invasion of illegal aliens into this country, and the reason that the Senate has been forced to deal with that issue is our guest. He is the author of a critically important bill.

First, here are some of the other important stories we're following tonight.

A judge has denied bail for the suspect in the Atlanta courthouse murders. Brian Nichols, the suspect, made his first appearance in court today since his arrest. His hands and legs were shackled. Nichols is suspected of killing four people, including a judge.

An unusual sight in New Mexico and Texas tonight, where heavy snow has accumulated and accumulated quickly. Parts of northern and eastern New Mexico receiving nearly three feet of snow. That storm closed highways, schools and even some government offices, we're told.

Up to a foot of snow fell in the Texas panhandle. Luckily, most schools there were out on spring break, even though that doesn't look much like spring.

Turning now to a vital national security issue and concern. The House of Representatives today attached provisions in the Real ID Act to the $82 billion supplemental spending bill for Iraq. My guest here tonight introduced that legislation. He is the author of the legislation which aims to keep drivers' licenses out of the hands of illegal aliens and potential terrorists, while reforming our asylum laws and regulations.

Congressman James Sensenbrenner is the chairman of the House Judiciary Committee.

It is good to have you with us.

REP. JAMES SENSENBRENNER (R-WI), CHAIRMAN, HOUSE JUDICIARY COMMITTEE: Thanks, Lou.

DOBBS: At this point it looks as though the leadership, the House leadership is keeping its word to attach that legislation to must-pass legislation and to move forward. Are you now hopeful?

SENSENBRENNER: I'm increasingly hopeful day by day. The administration strongly supports the Real ID Act. The Senate is going to have to face the music and vote on it one way or the other, and the real danger is that the supporters of illegal aliens in the Congress are going to try to stall out the Senate acting on the bill so that the Pentagon runs out of money and play a game of chicken. And I hope that the Senate stands up for what's right.

DOBBS: The chairman of the Judiciary Committee has just used language saying the supporters of illegal aliens in the United States Congress, and you do so advisedly. The fact that there are those who would put the interests of illegal aliens, for whatever reason, ahead of national security is confounding, to say the very least.

SENSENBRENNER: It's not just national security, Lou. It's public safety. There was an illegal alien from Macedonia who got a truck driver's license in my state of Wisconsin, who four days ago later killed a family of four on a Tennessee freeway.

DOBBS: Tennessee, absolutely. And this legislation that you propose, there's been some discussion from some quarters that it's an invasion of states' rights. How do you respond?

SENSENBRENNER: The bill doesn't force the states to do anything. What the bill does say is that in order for a driver's license to be used for federal ID purposes, such as getting on an airplane, the state must be able to show that the driver's license was issued to somebody lawfully present in the United States.

DOBBS: And Congressman Sensenbrenner, you said also this administration is giving your legislation, the Real ID Act, its strong support. The president is fully behind your bill now.

SENSENBRENNER: That is correct. And when the House considered this bill last month, the administration issued a very strong statement of administration policy not only on the driver's license provisions and the asylum provisions, but also on the provisions that plug the fence south of San Diego that illegal aliens are streaming across. DOBBS: At the same time, we're hearing the leader, Bill Frist, in the Senate say things like he would prefer that immigration be dealt with comprehensibly. Does this look to you to be the onset of more games from the Senate leadership on this issue?

SENSENBRENNER: I hope not. This is an issue of national and public security. It is not an issue of immigration, meaning who gets in, who stays in, what work permits are issued, and things of that sort.

DOBBS: Right.

SENSENBRENNER: If we get this bill passed, we're going to make our drivers' licenses more secure, and we're going to prevent people like the September 11 murderers who used drivers' licenses to get on those planes because they knew if they showed their foreign passports there would be suspicions raised by the security checkers at the airport from getting that type of ID.

DOBBS: And the asylum reforms to push away the terrorists who have been given basically a de facto preference in asylum.

SENSENBRENNER: Yes. The 9/11 Commission report said that asylum fraud was one of the major reasons why terrorists get in the country. And we know that a number of terrorists who were not involved in 9/11 but other terrorist attacks were people who had applications for asylum pending.

What we need to do is to be able to give immigration judges the power to deport people who they determine are lying in their asylum applications. The courts won't let them do that now, and that's why the law has got to be changed.

DOBBS: Well, it's not often I have the opportunity to say this, Congressman, to anyone in this town, but when I do, it's a great joy. Congratulations for the important work you've done on behalf of the American people.

SENSENBRENNER: Well, thank you. And I know the American people are behind me. Now it's up to the Senate to do the right thing.

DOBBS: Absolutely.

Congressman James Sensenbrenner...

SENSENBRENNER: Thanks, Lou.

DOBBS: ...we thank you for being here.

Tonight, rising outrage over the employment of illegal aliens in an airport in North Carolina and a nuclear power plant in Florida. Congressman Tom Tancredo today cited both security breaches as he blasted the White House for its plan to give legal status to millions of illegal aliens. Congressman Tancredo released a statement that says, quote, "The United States' message to Osama is clear: We're going to get you, unless you're willing to work at a job no American is willing to take."

Many of you also wrote in to express outrage about our porous borders. Alberto Tapia of Guadalajara, Mexico: "What good is changing immigration laws if they are not even followed in the first place?" Curt Helmer of Warrenton, Oregon: "As long as we have employers who knowingly hire illegal aliens, and have politicians and government agencies unwilling to take action to restrict benefits and services for them, we will not be able to stem the tide of illegal aliens, no matter how much we increase security along our borders. It's time that voters hold their elected officials accountable for enforcing current immigration laws, and for prosecuting employers who hire illegal aliens." Michael Boggs in Lexington, Kentucky: "When are the people we elect to represent us in Washington going to fight for the citizens of the United States? With the Mexican border not being controlled and products coming from China and other countries in record numbers affecting our jobs, seems like they're working for other governments, not ours."

We love hearing from you. Send us your thoughts at loudobbs.com. Each of you whose e-mail is read here receives a copy of my book, "Exporting America." Also, if you would like to receive our e-mail newsletter, sign up on our Web site loudobbs.com.

Next, Senator Chuck Hagel promises to, as he put it, "enlighten" me about his plans to reform Social Security. I always appreciate enlightenment. You probably wouldn't mind watching a little enlightenment occur here. We're looking forward to it. We hope you'll stay with us.

And fighting for fair trade: new legislation would help U.S. companies fight back against China's unfair trade policies, and maybe even save a few American jobs in the process. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: My next guest here is here to challenge my declaration that nearly all of the proposals for so-called Social Security reform that we are hearing about in this town seem to me, at least, to be a little half-baked, as I expressed it at the time. Senator Chuck Hagel took exception to my remarks and first responded to my comments last week on Judy Woodruff's "INSIDE POLITICS."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. CHUCK HAGEL (R), NEBRASKA: First of all, I'm going to give to our friend Lou Dobbs the specifics of my plan. I heard your exchange with Lou when he said all the plans out there are half-baked. I'm going to send Lou my number so I can enlighten him.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

DOBBS: Well, Senator Hagel and I really didn't need to exchange numbers. We've been talking to one another for some years, now.

It's good to have you here.

HAGEL: Thank you, Lou, very much.

DOBBS: In terms of Social Security reform, the president is out there stumping for 60 days -- they say 60 dates, I don't know about the nights, but 60 days. You have come forward with a plan that is straightforward. You're going to raise the retirement age for full benefits from 67 to 68, and yet at the same time implement so-called personal accounts. To what degree is that different in your judgment from the administration's plan?

HAGEL: Well, first of all, two actuarial facts -- and Greenspan brought these out today. One, actuarially, Social Security is unsustainable on the current trajectory that we're on over the next 75 years. We have a $3.7 trillion unfunded liability, right now, so this issue of "we don't want to go into debt" to fix it -- we're already in debt and we may be more than $3.7 trillion. So those are two facts.

Now, your question: First, I have the only bill that's been introduced in the United States Senate. There is no bill out there. Now, my friends and colleagues, Senator Sununu, and Bennett and Graham I think will be forthcoming with theirs, they've been talking about a number of ideas and we need their ideas.

Now, here's what I do. Number one, I have a plan, actuarially sound, the Social Security Administration has run the numbers, has modeled it, has scored it, gets us to full solvency within 75 years and all the out years beyond, for less than the $3.7 trillion. Here's how we do it. First, we take those 45 and younger and apply these new standards. Everybody who is 45 and older today, everything stays the same, they can live to be 200 years old. Second...

DOBBS: And may they all.

HAGEL: And may the all, that's right.

Second, we keep the early retirement age at 62, at 62, but we move down the scale, the benefits that they receive. Now they get 70 percent if they retire early at 62; in my plan they'd get 63 percent.

The third thing we do is attach a life expectancy index to the base number that you get when you retire. Here we are living years and years beyond what we ever thought we would live to in 1935, 1950, 1960. That means you're drawing more out of Social Security. So, I would put the life expectancy index into that calculation that gives you a base number.

Then on personal accounts, I make those voluntary. Anyone under 44, 44 and under, they can put aside four percent of their income. That accrues. There's a beneficiary, they get two accounts when they retire, Social Security and personal accounts.

DOBBS: Much as the president has been talking about and campaigning for, and also as the president's suggesting, and Senate Democrats in particular have said they're not going to -- they can't support you because of the debt that would accrue as a result of those personal accounts. Why are you insistent on those personal accounts? HAGEL: Well, first of all, personal accounts do in fact take tremendous pressure off of an unsustainable financed system right now that's our Social Security system. So there's a reason for personal accounts, aside from what the president talks about, which I agree with, by the way, you have something at the end, you can use it to give to your beneficiaries, but they take pressure off to help finance the future generations' benefits.

And second, on your point about debt, remember what I said. We're already $3.7 trillion in debt today for the next 75 years. What my plan does, being scored by the Social Security Administration, it rolls some of that debt that you're going to have to pay up to the front to make the transition. My numbers are about $800 billion over the ten years to get us there.

DOBBS: To be clear, the Social Security Administration itself is solvent, will be so until the very -- at the very worst projection, through 2018, more likely out years, just so that people don't get confused about debt and solvency here, when you talk about it. In terms of unfunded liability, Social Security amounts to just about half of the unfunded liabilities facing the federal government as compared to Medicare. And one of the difficulties I have, and I think many people have, Senator, is if we're going to look at the issues here, we have a federal budget deficit that would be $160 billion more for 2004 if we did not add in the Social Security surpluses, very few people want to talk about that. We have a trade deficit that is almost five times larger...

HAGEL: Over $600 billion.

DOBBS: The issues that are so large, that striking so forcefully at particularly our working men and women in this country, have nothing to do with Social Security.

HAGEL: Well, no, they do. When you look -- not Social Security is the only problem, you're exactly right. By the way, that number on unfunded liability over the next 75 years for Medicare, that's $28 trillion, so you're exactly right. But here's one of the things that I do by taking the age for full benefit retirement out one year. And Greenspan supported this today, by the way. It takes some pressure off Medicare and Medicaid, because it keeps people working a year longer. Most of those people, not all, have private insurance or through their companies they have health insurance somewhere else. So it all does connect.

You're exactly right. All these unfunded liabilities. As a matter of fact, the total unfunded liability right now in this country for the next 75 years, all these programs, is $44 trillion.

DOBBS: Staggering.

HAGEL: By the way, the reason we're not doing Medicare reform, and we should be, is because we -- and I voted against it two years ago, I thought...

(CROSSTALK) HAGEL: Let the record know that was the worst bill in nine years I've been in the Senate, but for political reasons we're not addressing that. We're going to have to address it. We can address Social Security, though, right now.

DOBBS: And you are.

HAGEL: I hope so.

DOBBS: And Senator Chuck Hagel, as always, it's good to talk to you. And as always, I appreciate the enlightenment.

HAGEL: Thank you.

DOBBS: That brings us to the subject of our poll tonight. We're curious about what you believe is the best way to fix Social Security. Do you believe it is to raise taxes, to raise the retirement age, to create private accounts, or to cut benefits, or some combination thereof is not offered? So, we would just like to see what you see as the preference there among those four choices. Cast your vote at loudobbs.com. We'll have the results later in the broadcast.

The Pentagon has just announced that all of the tests for anthrax at the military mail facilities in Washington are negative. The Pentagon closed the mail facility yesterday after sensors detected anthrax.

Our senior Pentagon correspondence Jamie McIntyre reports that the mail facility could reopen as early as tomorrow. So good news on what has turned out to be a false alarm.

Next here, a leading Congressman who says the president's budget is quite simply a fraud. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: My next guest says the president's budget for this coming year is fraudulent. Congressman Dennis Cardoza says the budget does not include funding for the top priorities on the president's agenda, and that makes it a fraudulent document, in his view.

Congressman Cardoza represents the Blue Dog Coalition, a group of 35 Democrats. They want more fiscal responsibility in Washington, D.C. They've proposed a 12-point plan to end what they call the addiction to deficits. Congressman Cardoza joins us here now. He is the co-chairman of the coalition. We're glad to have you here.

REP. DENNIS CARDOZA (D), CALIFORNIA: Thank you. It's a real pleasure to be here with you, Lou.

DOBBS: Let's start with something, because a lot of people don't know it. When I say Blue Dog Democrat, and people have heard of Yellow Dog Democrats, what is a Blue Dog Democrat?

CARDOZA: Well, a blue -- that term was created a few years ago when a number of our colleagues that were here at that time felt that they were being strangled by both sides. They're being strangled by the far left -- their leadership on the far left, and they certainly weren't Republicans. So, they were strangled by the pressure from both sides. And these are moderate to centrist folks, who believe in fiscal accountability and strong American national defense. And really believe in the philosophy of putting America first.

DOBBS: That's a remarkable attitude in this town, and you've managed to find 35 folks who are in agreement on that?

CARDOZA: Well, actually, it's interesting. Right now there's more than 35 folks that want to join or ranks, but we've just sort of capped it there for now. We can actually have more congressmen that want to join us. But we're holding it line right now.

DOBBS: Fiscal responsibility, Congressman, right now with the budget deficit in excess of $400 billion. As I was discussing with Senator Hagel if we take away Social Security surplus it rises to 500 -- better than $550 billion.

CARDOZA: That's right.

DOBBS: What in the world of opportunity do you have -- what chance do you have of bringing about fiscal responsibility in a town that is, as you've said, addicted to deficits supplement?

CARDOZA: We are addicted to deficit spending, but it goes back to a very fundamental rule. My daddy was a farmer. And he used to say, if you find yourself in a ditch, quit digging. And we're in a deep, deep ditch. The Blue Dogs have proposed this 12-point program, which we believe can help get us on the right path to recovery. These included balance budget amendment, pay/go for both taxes and for spending, to cap spending.

DOBBS: Now, when you say pay/go, congressman. You're saying that there should be an offset -- if there is an increase in spending for a program, there has to be a reduction in spending or taxes raised.

CARDOZA: That's right. Just like in your family's home budget. If you don't have as much money coming in, you've got to cut some of your outgo. Or if you get a raise, then you can do something with it. But you have to be in balance.

DOBBS: Now, one of the things that people are going to say, but my gosh, we're at war against -- a global war against radical Islamists terrorism. We're at war in Iraq. We're at war in Afghanistan. How can we possibly be balancing our budget at a time like this?

CARDOZA: Well, in every other time of conflict, we've asked Americans to sacrifice. But even beyond that, Lou, the worst spending is about 30 percent of the increase. So you've got 70 percent of other things that are way beyond what has been dedicated to the war effort. So we're not just talking about that. We're talking about a government that's out of control -- spending too much on entitlement programs that just run amok without us ever taking a vote on it. You know...

DOBBS: What kind of reception are you getting to your calls within your own party, the Blue Dogs? What kind of reception are you getting amongst your larger party, the DNC to your calls for fiscal responsibility, and common, of will, common-sense centrist, traditional American philosophy?

CARDOZA: Well, if you recall a few years ago in '97 through 2001, the Clinton administration actually got us on a path where we had a surplus. And in 2001, the administration, the current Congress, suspended the pay/go rules where we required balance. And since that time, the budget deficit has just gotten bigger and bigger and bigger every single year.

DOBBS: Congressman Dennis Cardoza, come back, we'll talk more about blue dogs and fiscal responsibility.

CARDOZA: Thank you. Sure will.

DOBBS: Good to have you with us.

Well, fighting unfair trade, one senator's struggle to protect -- I use the word "protect," imagine that, to protect American working men and women. That story is next. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: We've reported extensively here on the rising cost to this country of so-called free trade, including our exploding trade deficit with China, the hundreds of thousands of jobs being lost to outsourcing to cheap overseas labor markets. My guest now is part of a bipartisan group of lawmakers supporting the stopping overseas subsidies act. Senator Evan Bayh of Indiana says the bill will help American companies fight unfair trade practices overseas. Senator Bayh joins me here now.

Good to have you with us, Senator.

SEN. EVAN BAYH (D), INDIANA: Thank you, Lou.

DOBBS: How will this legislation in point in fact make trade any fairer, any more balanced than it is now by addressing subsidies?

BAYH: Lou, we see case after case in my state and elsewhere of products being manufactured abroad that are actually sold below the cost of the raw materials in this country, because their production is illegally subsidized. And that's costing workers jobs, businesses their business. They get up in the morning and they have got one hand tied behind their back, not because they don't work as hard, not because they are not as smart, not because the product is not as good, but because of these illegal subsidies.

What this would do would be where there is a finding of illegal subsidy, it would impose what is called a countervailing tariff to level the playing field to take away the benefit of the illegal subsidy. DOBBS: You know, Senator, when you talk about countervailing tariffs, countervailing tariffs were the, if you will, the bedrock of U.S. trade through -- from the '50s back. Why have we been so reluctant to make certain that when we say free trade, we mean free trade? And when a competitor, whether it be China or whatever the nation, isn't being fair, we bring about a countervailing tariff.

BAYH: It's mind-boggling and it's outrageous because we are the only major industrialized country that does not move against illegal subsidies. The French do it. The British do it. The Germans do it. We don't. And it's not right. And you see people losing jobs in business because of that, and it has got to stop.

As you organize this legislation and you think about the World Trade Organization, which some would say is, first of all -- we have subordinated U.S. law and sovereignty to a World Trade Organization that's hardly sympathetic to our plight and concerns and value, what will be the World Trade Organization should this become law?

BAYH: This is perfectly legal under the WTO provisions. We've just chosen -- we act against dumping, we don't act against subsidies. It's irrational, Lou, and it's harming people. And you know what? The world trading system is not going to work when our competitors, if they have a competitive advantage, they win, but when we have a competitive advantage, they still win, because they cheat? That's not right. A lot of your viewers are probably sports fan, I know I am a sports fan. The game only works if you have rules that are fair and the rules are enforced.

DOBBS: And when you are supposed to -- just about a $650 billion trade deficit in 2004, it's pretty clear we're not doing a number of things right.

Senator, we thank you very much. We wish you a lot of luck with the legislation, and thanks for taking it on.

BAYH: Thank you, Lou.

DOBBS: Senator Evan Bayh.

Still ahead here, we'll have the results of tonight's poll and we'll also have a preview of what's ahead tomorrow. Please stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: The results now of our poll tonight: 73 percent of you say raising taxes is the best way in which to pick Social Security; 17 percent say that the retirement age should be raised; 7 percent say creating private accounts; and 3 percent say cut benefits.

Thanks for being with us tonight. Please join us in New York tomorrow. The middle class is under assault. Sweeping new bankruptcy reforms will make it extraordinarily difficult for working men and women in the middle class to declare bankruptcy when necessary. We'll have two professors here to debate that in our face-off tomorrow evening.

And illegal aliens in this country aren't only able to obtain phony Social Security numbers. Incredibly, they're also able to use those numbers to buy property and secure mortgages. Be with us for that special report and more.

For all of us, good night from Washington, "ANDERSON 360" is next.

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Aired March 15, 2005 - 18:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LOU DOBBS, HOST: Tonight, Bush's radical challenge. President Bush offers a radical Islamist group linked to one of the most deadly terrorist assaults against Americans a chance to enter the political mainstream.
Terrorist plot. Federal agents smash an alleged plot to smuggle weapons into the United States and sell them to terrorists. And yes, most of the accused plotters are illegal aliens.

And America the vulnerable: shocking weaknesses in our border security and enforcement of our immigration laws. A leading terrorism expert joins us tonight. I'll also be talking with the congressman who is trying to make it much more difficult for terrorists to ever obtain a U.S. driver's license.

ANNOUNCER: This is Lou Dobbs for news, debate and opinion, tonight.

DOBBS: Good evening tonight from Washington.

Also ahead here, guilty as charged. Former WorldCom CEO Bernard Ebbers is convicted for his role in the biggest corporate fraud in U.S. history.

And no sweat, a rising number of communities across this country are now fighting to protect Americans from sweatshop conditions and the flood of cheap imports from overseas market.

And securing your future, Senator Chuck Hagel wants to enlighten me tonight about his plan to reform Social Security. Tonight, Senator Hagel has his opportunity. He's our guest.

And an extraordinary challenge tonight from President Bush to one of the Middle East's most violent and feared radical Islamist terrorist groups. President Bush called upon Hezbollah to prove it is not a terrorist organization by joining the political mainstream in Lebanon.

The United States has classified Hezbollah as a terrorist organization. For many years, that has been the view of U.S. policy. Hezbollah is blamed for a bomb attack on a U.S. Marines barracks in Beirut 22 years ago. Two-hundred-forty troops were killed.

Senior White House correspondent John King reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) JOHN KING, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): In the Oval Office, trying to balance Hezbollah's bloody history with the reality of its political clout in Lebanon.

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We view Hezbollah as a terrorist organization. And I would hope that Hezbollah would prove that they're not by laying down arms and not threatening peace.

KING: Meeting with Jordan's King Abdullah, the president was upbeat about change in the Middle East. Hezbollah's role in Lebanon is part of a defining challenge for a president who, on the one hand, is encouraging democracy, but on the other prefers a black and white, us versus them, approach to terrorists.

SHIBLEY TELHAMI, BROOKINGS INSTITUTION: The magnitude of the problem is greater now, because of the focus on the democracy, and the U.S. simply cannot backtrack on that. And what's happening is that a lot of the Islamist groups in a way are exploiting that opening to empower themselves and then the U.S. is going to be faced with a very major choice to make very soon.

KING: Hezbollah is blamed for the 1983 Marine barracks and embassy bombing in Beirut that killed 241 Americans, and Israel says it runs terror cells in the Palestinian territories responsible for suicide bombings against Israelis.

BUSH: One of our concerns the Majesty and I discussed is that Hezbollah may try to derail the peace process between Israel and the Palestinians.

KING: But this massive pro-Syria, anti-U.S. rally in Beirut last week was also a vivid display of Hezbollah's political power. Though the administration clearly hopes other political groups are bigger players in Lebanon's May elections.

SCOTT MCCLELLAN, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: Experience shows that when people are given the opportunity to choose their leaders, they tend to choose people who are committed to improving their lives, not terrorists.

KING: But the softer language from the president and other senior officials in recent days reflects the reality that, like it or not, Hezbollah could be a significant force in Lebanon's next government.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KING: Now, the Bush administration obviously cringes at that prospect but will deal with it if it has to later. The overwhelming emphasis here now is on making sure Syria fully withdraws its troops and its intelligence personnel from Lebanon before the May elections. As officials here put it here, Lou, one difficult challenge at a time.

DOBBS: John, what has been the reaction, the early reaction from Capitol Hill toward the White House announcement? KING: Well, you have people on Capitol Hill already trying to put more pressure on Hezbollah, including trying to convince the European Union to make Hezbollah -- to designate Hezbollah a terrorist organization.

So this is going to cause quite a bit of tension, most -- most importantly with the key defenders of Israel in the Congress. But most of the people we talked to, diplomats associated with Israel and members of Congress, understand the bind the president is in. They wish, though, Lou, that his language was tougher publicly.

DOBBS: And John, there's word tonight that Italy, a key member of the coalition, is planning to begin withdrawing its troops from Iraq beginning in September. Any reaction from the White House?

KING: Well, the White House is insisting that they do not think this has any direct connection at all to that shooting incident in Iraq, U.S. troops opening fire on that Italian journalist who had been released after being a hostage in Iraq. U.S. officials saying that publicly.

Privately, though, officials concede Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi under tremendous political pressure in his country. The war in Iraq and his decision to send troops there already was unpopular.

He has announced he will start drawing down the 3,000 Italian troops in September. What they worry about here, Lou, is that this will send a green light to other smaller members of the coalition in Iraq. U.S. officials say it simply raises the pressure yet again to speed up and accelerate the training of Iraqi security forces.

DOBBS: Thank you, John, our senior White House correspondent.

Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice today declared she is concerned about China's military buildup. Secretary Rice is the latest of several top U.S. officials to express their concern about the rapid modernization and expansion of China's military.

Speaking in the Indian capital of New Delhi, Rice said China's rising spending is disturbing because it coincides with escalating tensions over Taiwan. Secretary Rice is on a six-nation trip to Asia. She arrives in China on Sunday.

We report here extensively about the danger posed by illegal aliens, the danger that illegal aliens might infiltrate this country as terrorists and commit acts of terrorism or help terrorists already here. Tonight there's stunning evidence that those fears are justified.

Federal agents have charged 18 people, many of them illegal aliens, with allegedly trying to smuggle Russian-made military weapons into the United States.

Kitty Pilgrim reports from New York.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KITTY PILGRIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Eighteen men of different nationalities targeted in a roundup in New York, Los Angeles, and Fort Lauderdale, charged in a Manhattan courthouse today with weapons trafficking. They are predominantly Armenian, Russian, and Georgian. Many of them are illegal aliens.

They peddled rocket-launchers, shoulder-fired, surface-to-air missiles and other lethal weapons, selling whatever they could, promising more. They displayed their wares on a web site.

ANDY ARENA, FBI: They were just doing business. If the buyers of the weapons had money, the defendants -- the defendants did not care how the buyers planned to use the weapons.

PILGRIM: Their buyer said he was a arms dealer for a terrorist group. He was not. He was an informant for the government. For a year, the FBI monitored 15,000 phone calls, observed and recovered deliveries of some arms from storage facilities.

COMMISSIONER RAY KELLY, NEW YORK POLICE DEPARTMENT: This is the age-old story of people doing anything for money. They were interested in money. There was no ideology here.

PILGRIM: Ring leader Artur Solomonyan and his accomplices promised more, even at one point mentioning enriched uranium, which he said could be used in the New York subway system.

The defendants promised rocket-propelled grenades and shoulder- fired air missiles. All, they said, could be obtained from Eastern European and Russian military sources.

Then last night, in a Manhattan hotel, a sting operation. They were lured by the promise of green cards.

DAVID KELLEY, U.S. ATTORNEY: The defendants Spies and Solomonyan indicating to the C.I., look, "We have these -- we have these arms in these pictures. We're ready to make the deal. In order for us to close the deal, we have to go overseas. The problem is that we're illegal aliens. If we want to travel, we need some sort of papers. We need green cards."

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PILGRIM: Many of the promised weapons never made it into the states. Federal officials emphasize there was never any uranium. But assault rifles, including an Uzi and AK-47 were delivered to storage facilities in New York, Los Angeles and Fort Lauderdale -- Lou.

DOBBS: A success in the fight against terrorism. Thank you very much, Kitty Pilgrim from New York.

My guest tonight says terrorist organizations have a sophisticated understanding of our entire immigration system, and they know how to exploit our porous borders. Janice Kephart is the former counsel to the 9/11 Commission. She is an expert on terrorist travel. In testimony before the Senate yesterday Kephart declared, "We must upgrade our border system now. Our current system sets the bar far too low for terrorists trying to enter the United States."

Janice Kephart joins us here now. Good to have us with us.

JANICE KEPHART, FORMER COUNSEL TO 9/11 COMMISSION: Thank you, Lou.

DOBBS: Let's start with another statement that you made yesterday. You said effective border security is perhaps our best hope of preventing another terrorist attack on American soil. How would you describe the state of border security in this country?

KEPHART: Well, I think we've made some strides. We do have biometrics. We take fingerprints and photographs at the ports of entry now. That's an improvement.

But we have sufficient fragmentation within the Department of Homeland Security. We have not brought all of our immigration apparatus together. We don't have a cohesive policymaking, and so I think at our ports of entry we are seeing problems come up as a result of that.

DOBBS: Biometrics, various other improvements in border security, technologically...

KEPHART: Yes.

DOBBS: ... most of them are totally dependent upon those people entering this country being law-abiding as they cross the border.

KEPHART: That's correct.

DOBBS: We know that an estimated three million illegal aliens crossed our border last year, Janice. Is there any way in the world that the Department of Homeland Security, this administration, this Congress or anyone in the federal government can claim that we have border security in this country?

KEPHART: I think we have a really long way to go to get there. One of the things that I did not discuss yesterday in my testimony was something that dovetails very well with things that Deputy Secretary Loy and FBI Director Mueller have been saying about infiltration from the Southwest.

DOBBS: Right.

KEPHART: When I was on the commission, I became privy to an open source alert to the Border Patrol that's about a year-and-a-half old now that said the Colombian FARC was meeting with al Qaeda in Madrid, Spain, and their interest was in acquiring Mexican Islamic converts to come through the Southwest border.

DOBBS: Oh my gosh.

KEPHART: So that is a troublesome piece of information that dovetails very much with what we have been hearing lately on the Hill.

DOBBS: And that kind of -- obviously that's concerning to all of us. The fact that we have not -- and as you point out, border security is the first line of defense against -- and the best hope for preventing a terrorist attack.

You are also sophisticated in the ways of this town, this government. Three-and-a-half years after 9/11, the commission that you counseled and served on, how could any public official, any public servant, any elected official in this country be sanguine about the vulnerability of this country right now?

KEPHART: Well, I think what we need to do is be educated on what terrorist travel is, be educated to the fact that terrorists have been thoughtful about our vulnerabilities and willing to exploit them. And willing to exploit whatever vulnerabilities we have, whether they be in our immigration benefits system. They have sought political asylum, they have sought naturalization, they get it time and again.

We need to be cognizant of abroad. They're seeking visas or they're seeking bad documents to try to infiltrate the U.S. with -- on false identities. They will do anything that they can to get here.

DOBBS: And in that testimony, Janice Kephart cited two examples, one across the Canadian border, the other across the Mexican border of terrorists who were apprehended after having violated our borders.

Janice Kephart, I hope you'll come back with us here. We'd like to hear far more of your views on this critically important subject to all of us and to the nation.

KEPHART: I would love to. Thank you, Lou.

DOBBS: Thank you, Janice Kephart.

New concerns tonight about a possible anthrax attack right here in Washington, D.C. A second test at a Pentagon mail facility has come back positive for anthrax. Earlier results at that facility were negative.

Scientists are carrying out more detailed tests tonight. Officials stress the positive anthrax results are still only preliminary. The Pentagon, however, closed the mail facility after sensors detected the deadly bacteria yesterday.

In France, a court has sentenced a radical Islamist terrorist to 10 years in prison for plotting a suicide bomb attack against the U.S. embassy in Paris. The court jailed five accomplices for between one and nine years. Prosecutors said the plot to attack the U.S. embassy was planned with a top al Qaeda terrorist in Afghanistan.

In the Philippines, please killed four radical Islamist leaders and 18 other prisoners when they revolted at a Manila jail. Police said the revolt was organized by the radical Islamist linked to the al Qaeda terrorist network. The Filipino president spokesman said, "The terrorists got what was coming to them."

Still ahead here, a verdict in the trial of former WorldCom CEO Bernard Ebbers for his role in what was the biggest corporate fraud in U.S. history.

And no sweat. A rising numbers of communities and cities across this country are now fighting back against the flood of imports from cheap overseas labor markets, and they're working to stop sweatshop conditions in U.S. cities.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: WorldCom's founder and former Chief Executive Officer Bernard Ebbers today convicted on all nine counts for his role in the largest corporate fraud in American history. Ebbers has repeatedly said he is not to blame for the rampant accounting fraud that destroyed WorldCom. Today a jury in a federal court in New York disagreed.

Christine Romans reports from New York.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Bernie Ebbers, from small-town Mississippi coach, to telecom titan, to convicted felon. The former WorldCom chief now faces the possibility of spending the rest of his life in prison. His attorney says he will appeal.

REID WEINGARTEN, EBBERS' ATTORNEY: I'm extremely disappointed. I know Mr. Ebbers and I know the evidence in this case. And I was extremely hopeful that he would be vindicated. And the fight continues.

ROMANS: It's a big win for the government in the fight against corporate crime. The attorney general called the verdict "a triumph of our legal system."

Ebbers built WorldCom through dozens of acquisitions in the heyday of the 1990s, and his vast personal wealth was tied up in WorldCom stock and company loans. As the telecom market softened, he instructed his finance staff to hit the numbers at any cost, and an $11 billion fraud unfolded.

For that fraud Ebbers has lost his freedom. More than 20,000 WorldCom employees lost their jobs; $600 million in pension money disappeared, and investors lost hundreds of millions more.

Ebbers testified he wasn't to blame, that he doesn't understand finance and accounting. Instead, the jury believed star witness Scott Sullivan, a former finance chief who pleaded guilty to fraud in exchange for lenience, a witness the defense tried to discredit as an adulterer and drug user. BARRY BERKE, KRAMER LEVIN: There certainly seems to be a resounding defeat of the so-called CEO defense, where the CEO is claiming that he's so far removed from the details that he can't be held responsible for whatever fraud took place by the underlings.

ROMANS: The verdict a powerful signal to other disgraced CEOs awaiting trial.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ROMANS: Lou, very early on as WorldCom was unraveling, the chairman of the Securities and Exchange Commission perhaps said it best. Harvey Pitt said, "This isn't a mistake. In Brooklyn, it's called fraud." Tonight, Pitt says he's gratified this jury agreed -- Lou.

DOBBS: Thank you very much, Christine. In Manhattan, as well as Brooklyn, it turns out. Christine Romans reporting from New York.

As we've reported extensively here, countries such as China use unfair and often inhumane labor practices in order to gain competitive advantage in world trade. Now state and local governments all across this country are taking action to protect American workers from similar conditions. A movement called SweatFree Communities is promoting new legislation, and that movement is gaining momentum.

Lisa Sylvester reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

LISA SYLVESTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Eric Odier-Fink and his wife are preparing to reopen a clothing shop in Bangor, Maine. His store, Justice Clothing, has a twist. Everything sold is union made.

ERIC ODIER-FINK, JUSTICE CLOTHING: The union label guarantees that these people have decent pay, they have benefits, they have job protection and security. And that's -- and that's really what matters.

SYLVESTER: Justice Clothing, which also retails online, is part of a movement called SweatFree Communities. The organization has convinced at least five states and dozens of cities and municipalities, including Los Angeles, to pass some type of SweatFree law. Local governments agree to buy products from only contractors who pledge to pay their workers a fair wage, limit work hours and allow the employees to form a union.

BJORN CLAESON, SWEATFREE COMMUNITIES: These laws are actually filtering out the worst of the abusers who don't want to sign a code of conduct or don't want to publicly disclose where their factories are located from submitting bids to state and local governments.

SYLVESTER: Connecticut is the latest state to consider mandating SweatFree rules for all state-purchased apparel, including police uniforms and University of Connecticut paraphernalia. MATT BATES, UNION LABEL SERVICE TRADERS, AFL-CIO: The more that you see these global trends accelerating with sweatshop labor, with exploitation of children, with the outsourcing and hemorrhaging of good jobs, you see increased concern on the part of consumers.

SYLVESTER: Studies have shown that many consumers are willing to spend a little more to ensure fair labor conditions.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SYLVESTER: And three separate studies by Maryland University, Marymount University and the National Bureau of Economic Research found that 76 to 86 percent of consumers surveyed were willing to pay more for products made under fair working conditions. That certainly makes a strong case that there are a number of conscientious consumers out there -- Lou.

DOBBS: Millions of them, in point of fact. And millions of consumers who now understand those prices are related to wages. And everyone in this country wants to make a living wage.

Thank you very much, Lisa Sylvester. Fascinating report.

Well, coming up next here, keeping drivers' licenses out of the hands of illegal aliens and reforming our asylum laws. The Senate will soon have to decide whether it supports the Real ID Act. The courageous author of that legislation, House Judiciary Chairman Congressman James Sensenbrenner is our guest here next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: In a moment, the Senate is forced to address the invasion of illegal aliens into this country, and the reason that the Senate has been forced to deal with that issue is our guest. He is the author of a critically important bill.

First, here are some of the other important stories we're following tonight.

A judge has denied bail for the suspect in the Atlanta courthouse murders. Brian Nichols, the suspect, made his first appearance in court today since his arrest. His hands and legs were shackled. Nichols is suspected of killing four people, including a judge.

An unusual sight in New Mexico and Texas tonight, where heavy snow has accumulated and accumulated quickly. Parts of northern and eastern New Mexico receiving nearly three feet of snow. That storm closed highways, schools and even some government offices, we're told.

Up to a foot of snow fell in the Texas panhandle. Luckily, most schools there were out on spring break, even though that doesn't look much like spring.

Turning now to a vital national security issue and concern. The House of Representatives today attached provisions in the Real ID Act to the $82 billion supplemental spending bill for Iraq. My guest here tonight introduced that legislation. He is the author of the legislation which aims to keep drivers' licenses out of the hands of illegal aliens and potential terrorists, while reforming our asylum laws and regulations.

Congressman James Sensenbrenner is the chairman of the House Judiciary Committee.

It is good to have you with us.

REP. JAMES SENSENBRENNER (R-WI), CHAIRMAN, HOUSE JUDICIARY COMMITTEE: Thanks, Lou.

DOBBS: At this point it looks as though the leadership, the House leadership is keeping its word to attach that legislation to must-pass legislation and to move forward. Are you now hopeful?

SENSENBRENNER: I'm increasingly hopeful day by day. The administration strongly supports the Real ID Act. The Senate is going to have to face the music and vote on it one way or the other, and the real danger is that the supporters of illegal aliens in the Congress are going to try to stall out the Senate acting on the bill so that the Pentagon runs out of money and play a game of chicken. And I hope that the Senate stands up for what's right.

DOBBS: The chairman of the Judiciary Committee has just used language saying the supporters of illegal aliens in the United States Congress, and you do so advisedly. The fact that there are those who would put the interests of illegal aliens, for whatever reason, ahead of national security is confounding, to say the very least.

SENSENBRENNER: It's not just national security, Lou. It's public safety. There was an illegal alien from Macedonia who got a truck driver's license in my state of Wisconsin, who four days ago later killed a family of four on a Tennessee freeway.

DOBBS: Tennessee, absolutely. And this legislation that you propose, there's been some discussion from some quarters that it's an invasion of states' rights. How do you respond?

SENSENBRENNER: The bill doesn't force the states to do anything. What the bill does say is that in order for a driver's license to be used for federal ID purposes, such as getting on an airplane, the state must be able to show that the driver's license was issued to somebody lawfully present in the United States.

DOBBS: And Congressman Sensenbrenner, you said also this administration is giving your legislation, the Real ID Act, its strong support. The president is fully behind your bill now.

SENSENBRENNER: That is correct. And when the House considered this bill last month, the administration issued a very strong statement of administration policy not only on the driver's license provisions and the asylum provisions, but also on the provisions that plug the fence south of San Diego that illegal aliens are streaming across. DOBBS: At the same time, we're hearing the leader, Bill Frist, in the Senate say things like he would prefer that immigration be dealt with comprehensibly. Does this look to you to be the onset of more games from the Senate leadership on this issue?

SENSENBRENNER: I hope not. This is an issue of national and public security. It is not an issue of immigration, meaning who gets in, who stays in, what work permits are issued, and things of that sort.

DOBBS: Right.

SENSENBRENNER: If we get this bill passed, we're going to make our drivers' licenses more secure, and we're going to prevent people like the September 11 murderers who used drivers' licenses to get on those planes because they knew if they showed their foreign passports there would be suspicions raised by the security checkers at the airport from getting that type of ID.

DOBBS: And the asylum reforms to push away the terrorists who have been given basically a de facto preference in asylum.

SENSENBRENNER: Yes. The 9/11 Commission report said that asylum fraud was one of the major reasons why terrorists get in the country. And we know that a number of terrorists who were not involved in 9/11 but other terrorist attacks were people who had applications for asylum pending.

What we need to do is to be able to give immigration judges the power to deport people who they determine are lying in their asylum applications. The courts won't let them do that now, and that's why the law has got to be changed.

DOBBS: Well, it's not often I have the opportunity to say this, Congressman, to anyone in this town, but when I do, it's a great joy. Congratulations for the important work you've done on behalf of the American people.

SENSENBRENNER: Well, thank you. And I know the American people are behind me. Now it's up to the Senate to do the right thing.

DOBBS: Absolutely.

Congressman James Sensenbrenner...

SENSENBRENNER: Thanks, Lou.

DOBBS: ...we thank you for being here.

Tonight, rising outrage over the employment of illegal aliens in an airport in North Carolina and a nuclear power plant in Florida. Congressman Tom Tancredo today cited both security breaches as he blasted the White House for its plan to give legal status to millions of illegal aliens. Congressman Tancredo released a statement that says, quote, "The United States' message to Osama is clear: We're going to get you, unless you're willing to work at a job no American is willing to take."

Many of you also wrote in to express outrage about our porous borders. Alberto Tapia of Guadalajara, Mexico: "What good is changing immigration laws if they are not even followed in the first place?" Curt Helmer of Warrenton, Oregon: "As long as we have employers who knowingly hire illegal aliens, and have politicians and government agencies unwilling to take action to restrict benefits and services for them, we will not be able to stem the tide of illegal aliens, no matter how much we increase security along our borders. It's time that voters hold their elected officials accountable for enforcing current immigration laws, and for prosecuting employers who hire illegal aliens." Michael Boggs in Lexington, Kentucky: "When are the people we elect to represent us in Washington going to fight for the citizens of the United States? With the Mexican border not being controlled and products coming from China and other countries in record numbers affecting our jobs, seems like they're working for other governments, not ours."

We love hearing from you. Send us your thoughts at loudobbs.com. Each of you whose e-mail is read here receives a copy of my book, "Exporting America." Also, if you would like to receive our e-mail newsletter, sign up on our Web site loudobbs.com.

Next, Senator Chuck Hagel promises to, as he put it, "enlighten" me about his plans to reform Social Security. I always appreciate enlightenment. You probably wouldn't mind watching a little enlightenment occur here. We're looking forward to it. We hope you'll stay with us.

And fighting for fair trade: new legislation would help U.S. companies fight back against China's unfair trade policies, and maybe even save a few American jobs in the process. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: My next guest here is here to challenge my declaration that nearly all of the proposals for so-called Social Security reform that we are hearing about in this town seem to me, at least, to be a little half-baked, as I expressed it at the time. Senator Chuck Hagel took exception to my remarks and first responded to my comments last week on Judy Woodruff's "INSIDE POLITICS."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. CHUCK HAGEL (R), NEBRASKA: First of all, I'm going to give to our friend Lou Dobbs the specifics of my plan. I heard your exchange with Lou when he said all the plans out there are half-baked. I'm going to send Lou my number so I can enlighten him.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

DOBBS: Well, Senator Hagel and I really didn't need to exchange numbers. We've been talking to one another for some years, now.

It's good to have you here.

HAGEL: Thank you, Lou, very much.

DOBBS: In terms of Social Security reform, the president is out there stumping for 60 days -- they say 60 dates, I don't know about the nights, but 60 days. You have come forward with a plan that is straightforward. You're going to raise the retirement age for full benefits from 67 to 68, and yet at the same time implement so-called personal accounts. To what degree is that different in your judgment from the administration's plan?

HAGEL: Well, first of all, two actuarial facts -- and Greenspan brought these out today. One, actuarially, Social Security is unsustainable on the current trajectory that we're on over the next 75 years. We have a $3.7 trillion unfunded liability, right now, so this issue of "we don't want to go into debt" to fix it -- we're already in debt and we may be more than $3.7 trillion. So those are two facts.

Now, your question: First, I have the only bill that's been introduced in the United States Senate. There is no bill out there. Now, my friends and colleagues, Senator Sununu, and Bennett and Graham I think will be forthcoming with theirs, they've been talking about a number of ideas and we need their ideas.

Now, here's what I do. Number one, I have a plan, actuarially sound, the Social Security Administration has run the numbers, has modeled it, has scored it, gets us to full solvency within 75 years and all the out years beyond, for less than the $3.7 trillion. Here's how we do it. First, we take those 45 and younger and apply these new standards. Everybody who is 45 and older today, everything stays the same, they can live to be 200 years old. Second...

DOBBS: And may they all.

HAGEL: And may the all, that's right.

Second, we keep the early retirement age at 62, at 62, but we move down the scale, the benefits that they receive. Now they get 70 percent if they retire early at 62; in my plan they'd get 63 percent.

The third thing we do is attach a life expectancy index to the base number that you get when you retire. Here we are living years and years beyond what we ever thought we would live to in 1935, 1950, 1960. That means you're drawing more out of Social Security. So, I would put the life expectancy index into that calculation that gives you a base number.

Then on personal accounts, I make those voluntary. Anyone under 44, 44 and under, they can put aside four percent of their income. That accrues. There's a beneficiary, they get two accounts when they retire, Social Security and personal accounts.

DOBBS: Much as the president has been talking about and campaigning for, and also as the president's suggesting, and Senate Democrats in particular have said they're not going to -- they can't support you because of the debt that would accrue as a result of those personal accounts. Why are you insistent on those personal accounts? HAGEL: Well, first of all, personal accounts do in fact take tremendous pressure off of an unsustainable financed system right now that's our Social Security system. So there's a reason for personal accounts, aside from what the president talks about, which I agree with, by the way, you have something at the end, you can use it to give to your beneficiaries, but they take pressure off to help finance the future generations' benefits.

And second, on your point about debt, remember what I said. We're already $3.7 trillion in debt today for the next 75 years. What my plan does, being scored by the Social Security Administration, it rolls some of that debt that you're going to have to pay up to the front to make the transition. My numbers are about $800 billion over the ten years to get us there.

DOBBS: To be clear, the Social Security Administration itself is solvent, will be so until the very -- at the very worst projection, through 2018, more likely out years, just so that people don't get confused about debt and solvency here, when you talk about it. In terms of unfunded liability, Social Security amounts to just about half of the unfunded liabilities facing the federal government as compared to Medicare. And one of the difficulties I have, and I think many people have, Senator, is if we're going to look at the issues here, we have a federal budget deficit that would be $160 billion more for 2004 if we did not add in the Social Security surpluses, very few people want to talk about that. We have a trade deficit that is almost five times larger...

HAGEL: Over $600 billion.

DOBBS: The issues that are so large, that striking so forcefully at particularly our working men and women in this country, have nothing to do with Social Security.

HAGEL: Well, no, they do. When you look -- not Social Security is the only problem, you're exactly right. By the way, that number on unfunded liability over the next 75 years for Medicare, that's $28 trillion, so you're exactly right. But here's one of the things that I do by taking the age for full benefit retirement out one year. And Greenspan supported this today, by the way. It takes some pressure off Medicare and Medicaid, because it keeps people working a year longer. Most of those people, not all, have private insurance or through their companies they have health insurance somewhere else. So it all does connect.

You're exactly right. All these unfunded liabilities. As a matter of fact, the total unfunded liability right now in this country for the next 75 years, all these programs, is $44 trillion.

DOBBS: Staggering.

HAGEL: By the way, the reason we're not doing Medicare reform, and we should be, is because we -- and I voted against it two years ago, I thought...

(CROSSTALK) HAGEL: Let the record know that was the worst bill in nine years I've been in the Senate, but for political reasons we're not addressing that. We're going to have to address it. We can address Social Security, though, right now.

DOBBS: And you are.

HAGEL: I hope so.

DOBBS: And Senator Chuck Hagel, as always, it's good to talk to you. And as always, I appreciate the enlightenment.

HAGEL: Thank you.

DOBBS: That brings us to the subject of our poll tonight. We're curious about what you believe is the best way to fix Social Security. Do you believe it is to raise taxes, to raise the retirement age, to create private accounts, or to cut benefits, or some combination thereof is not offered? So, we would just like to see what you see as the preference there among those four choices. Cast your vote at loudobbs.com. We'll have the results later in the broadcast.

The Pentagon has just announced that all of the tests for anthrax at the military mail facilities in Washington are negative. The Pentagon closed the mail facility yesterday after sensors detected anthrax.

Our senior Pentagon correspondence Jamie McIntyre reports that the mail facility could reopen as early as tomorrow. So good news on what has turned out to be a false alarm.

Next here, a leading Congressman who says the president's budget is quite simply a fraud. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: My next guest says the president's budget for this coming year is fraudulent. Congressman Dennis Cardoza says the budget does not include funding for the top priorities on the president's agenda, and that makes it a fraudulent document, in his view.

Congressman Cardoza represents the Blue Dog Coalition, a group of 35 Democrats. They want more fiscal responsibility in Washington, D.C. They've proposed a 12-point plan to end what they call the addiction to deficits. Congressman Cardoza joins us here now. He is the co-chairman of the coalition. We're glad to have you here.

REP. DENNIS CARDOZA (D), CALIFORNIA: Thank you. It's a real pleasure to be here with you, Lou.

DOBBS: Let's start with something, because a lot of people don't know it. When I say Blue Dog Democrat, and people have heard of Yellow Dog Democrats, what is a Blue Dog Democrat?

CARDOZA: Well, a blue -- that term was created a few years ago when a number of our colleagues that were here at that time felt that they were being strangled by both sides. They're being strangled by the far left -- their leadership on the far left, and they certainly weren't Republicans. So, they were strangled by the pressure from both sides. And these are moderate to centrist folks, who believe in fiscal accountability and strong American national defense. And really believe in the philosophy of putting America first.

DOBBS: That's a remarkable attitude in this town, and you've managed to find 35 folks who are in agreement on that?

CARDOZA: Well, actually, it's interesting. Right now there's more than 35 folks that want to join or ranks, but we've just sort of capped it there for now. We can actually have more congressmen that want to join us. But we're holding it line right now.

DOBBS: Fiscal responsibility, Congressman, right now with the budget deficit in excess of $400 billion. As I was discussing with Senator Hagel if we take away Social Security surplus it rises to 500 -- better than $550 billion.

CARDOZA: That's right.

DOBBS: What in the world of opportunity do you have -- what chance do you have of bringing about fiscal responsibility in a town that is, as you've said, addicted to deficits supplement?

CARDOZA: We are addicted to deficit spending, but it goes back to a very fundamental rule. My daddy was a farmer. And he used to say, if you find yourself in a ditch, quit digging. And we're in a deep, deep ditch. The Blue Dogs have proposed this 12-point program, which we believe can help get us on the right path to recovery. These included balance budget amendment, pay/go for both taxes and for spending, to cap spending.

DOBBS: Now, when you say pay/go, congressman. You're saying that there should be an offset -- if there is an increase in spending for a program, there has to be a reduction in spending or taxes raised.

CARDOZA: That's right. Just like in your family's home budget. If you don't have as much money coming in, you've got to cut some of your outgo. Or if you get a raise, then you can do something with it. But you have to be in balance.

DOBBS: Now, one of the things that people are going to say, but my gosh, we're at war against -- a global war against radical Islamists terrorism. We're at war in Iraq. We're at war in Afghanistan. How can we possibly be balancing our budget at a time like this?

CARDOZA: Well, in every other time of conflict, we've asked Americans to sacrifice. But even beyond that, Lou, the worst spending is about 30 percent of the increase. So you've got 70 percent of other things that are way beyond what has been dedicated to the war effort. So we're not just talking about that. We're talking about a government that's out of control -- spending too much on entitlement programs that just run amok without us ever taking a vote on it. You know...

DOBBS: What kind of reception are you getting to your calls within your own party, the Blue Dogs? What kind of reception are you getting amongst your larger party, the DNC to your calls for fiscal responsibility, and common, of will, common-sense centrist, traditional American philosophy?

CARDOZA: Well, if you recall a few years ago in '97 through 2001, the Clinton administration actually got us on a path where we had a surplus. And in 2001, the administration, the current Congress, suspended the pay/go rules where we required balance. And since that time, the budget deficit has just gotten bigger and bigger and bigger every single year.

DOBBS: Congressman Dennis Cardoza, come back, we'll talk more about blue dogs and fiscal responsibility.

CARDOZA: Thank you. Sure will.

DOBBS: Good to have you with us.

Well, fighting unfair trade, one senator's struggle to protect -- I use the word "protect," imagine that, to protect American working men and women. That story is next. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: We've reported extensively here on the rising cost to this country of so-called free trade, including our exploding trade deficit with China, the hundreds of thousands of jobs being lost to outsourcing to cheap overseas labor markets. My guest now is part of a bipartisan group of lawmakers supporting the stopping overseas subsidies act. Senator Evan Bayh of Indiana says the bill will help American companies fight unfair trade practices overseas. Senator Bayh joins me here now.

Good to have you with us, Senator.

SEN. EVAN BAYH (D), INDIANA: Thank you, Lou.

DOBBS: How will this legislation in point in fact make trade any fairer, any more balanced than it is now by addressing subsidies?

BAYH: Lou, we see case after case in my state and elsewhere of products being manufactured abroad that are actually sold below the cost of the raw materials in this country, because their production is illegally subsidized. And that's costing workers jobs, businesses their business. They get up in the morning and they have got one hand tied behind their back, not because they don't work as hard, not because they are not as smart, not because the product is not as good, but because of these illegal subsidies.

What this would do would be where there is a finding of illegal subsidy, it would impose what is called a countervailing tariff to level the playing field to take away the benefit of the illegal subsidy. DOBBS: You know, Senator, when you talk about countervailing tariffs, countervailing tariffs were the, if you will, the bedrock of U.S. trade through -- from the '50s back. Why have we been so reluctant to make certain that when we say free trade, we mean free trade? And when a competitor, whether it be China or whatever the nation, isn't being fair, we bring about a countervailing tariff.

BAYH: It's mind-boggling and it's outrageous because we are the only major industrialized country that does not move against illegal subsidies. The French do it. The British do it. The Germans do it. We don't. And it's not right. And you see people losing jobs in business because of that, and it has got to stop.

As you organize this legislation and you think about the World Trade Organization, which some would say is, first of all -- we have subordinated U.S. law and sovereignty to a World Trade Organization that's hardly sympathetic to our plight and concerns and value, what will be the World Trade Organization should this become law?

BAYH: This is perfectly legal under the WTO provisions. We've just chosen -- we act against dumping, we don't act against subsidies. It's irrational, Lou, and it's harming people. And you know what? The world trading system is not going to work when our competitors, if they have a competitive advantage, they win, but when we have a competitive advantage, they still win, because they cheat? That's not right. A lot of your viewers are probably sports fan, I know I am a sports fan. The game only works if you have rules that are fair and the rules are enforced.

DOBBS: And when you are supposed to -- just about a $650 billion trade deficit in 2004, it's pretty clear we're not doing a number of things right.

Senator, we thank you very much. We wish you a lot of luck with the legislation, and thanks for taking it on.

BAYH: Thank you, Lou.

DOBBS: Senator Evan Bayh.

Still ahead here, we'll have the results of tonight's poll and we'll also have a preview of what's ahead tomorrow. Please stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: The results now of our poll tonight: 73 percent of you say raising taxes is the best way in which to pick Social Security; 17 percent say that the retirement age should be raised; 7 percent say creating private accounts; and 3 percent say cut benefits.

Thanks for being with us tonight. Please join us in New York tomorrow. The middle class is under assault. Sweeping new bankruptcy reforms will make it extraordinarily difficult for working men and women in the middle class to declare bankruptcy when necessary. We'll have two professors here to debate that in our face-off tomorrow evening.

And illegal aliens in this country aren't only able to obtain phony Social Security numbers. Incredibly, they're also able to use those numbers to buy property and secure mortgages. Be with us for that special report and more.

For all of us, good night from Washington, "ANDERSON 360" is next.

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