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Lou Dobbs Tonight
U.S., Canada, Mexico Unequal Partners; Murderer Flee Justice South of the Border
Aired March 23, 2005 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LOU DOBBS, HOST: Tonight, the three leaders of Mexico, Canada and the United States meet to talk about border security, economics and immigration. President Bush today said one way, in his opinion, to better enforce our border is with compassion. We'll have a live report from the president's ranch in Texas.
And in our "Face Off" tonight, two experts debate the best solutions to our immigration crisis.
And banking the unbanked. Some U.S. banks are not only offering bank accounts to illegal aliens; they're also giving them loans. We'll have that special report.
Also tonight, desperate new appeals in the Terri Schiavo case, how her parents and the state of Florida are fighting to keep her alive. We'll have the latest. And the fundamental issues in this case, according to the best-selling author of "The Purpose Driven Life," Pastor Rick Warren.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PASTOR RICK WARREN, AUTHOR, "THE PURPOSE DRIVEN LIFE": My question is, who's in such a hurry to take her life? I know that there are millions of people in America who would be willing to pay for her feeding, and since when did we decide that people who can't feed themselves ought to die? If that's true, then we ought to let all the babies die, because they can't feed themselves.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: I'll be talking with Pastor Warren on the Terri Schiavo case, the shootings in Atlanta and Minnesota, and the role of religion in our society. He's our special guest tonight.
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS for news, debate and opinion, tonight.
DOBBS: Good evening.
President Bush today met with the leaders of Mexico and Canada on expanding, as they put it, prosperity and security in North America. President Bush also renewed his promise to Mexican President Vicente Fox to give millions of illegal aliens in this country legal status.
Senior White House correspondent John King reports. We're told there are technical problems, and for that, I apologize. We'll be getting back to John King's report later here in the broadcast.
President Bush today also sparked some outrage with his comment about the upcoming Minuteman Project in Arizona. The president called that group of volunteers, who will be monitoring our southern border, quote, "vigilantes" as President Vicente Fox has called them previously. We'll have reaction from the Minutemen and what they say President Bush should be doing to protect our borders still ahead here tonight.
Today's summit was billed as a trade and security meeting between equal nations. The three leaders highlighted a strong and unified North America. But the fact, which all three leaders chose to ignore, the fact is Mexico is hardly an equal partner, hardly is Canada. And when compared to the United States and Canada, it is all simply worlds apart.
Kitty Pilgrim has the story.
KITTY PILGRIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, it's a really interesting story when you look at the difference between Canada and Mexico and the United States.
You have literacy rates that are quite different. You have infant mortality rates that are quite different, and you have life expectancy rates that are quite different.
You see the poverty rate in Mexico. Forty percent of the population on the poverty level.
DOBBS: An extraordinary level. And the agriculture poverty rate, 80 percent. It is utterly remarkable.
The trade relationships among the three nations: Canada, a nation of 30 million people, Mexico, a nation of 100 million people, the United States, 300 million. The disparities, as those who support NAFTA and these three leaders try to come to together, are just extraordinary.
PILGRIM: When you look at the institutional differences, as you say the economic differences, one of the facts that really struck me in reporting this story today was that 90 percent of the population of Canada lives in a 100-mile strip right on the border. And yet the border issues with Canada are not nearly as exacerbated as the border issues with Mexico, simply because of the living disparity.
DOBBS: The living conditions, the standard of living, which is significantly different than that, of course, the United States or Canada.
The difficulty in this, it seems to many, is that the government of Mexico, now literally for decades, has failed to provide leadership and to create an economy that can sustain its own people. PILGRIM: It's quite striking when you look at the -- the differences in income. And we were looking at remittances of Mexicans who come into the United States. It's one of the big stories here. The amount of money that they send back to relatives in Mexico is $16 billion. And that is something that the Mexican economy is dependent on.
So it's a very striking difference. The prosperity comes from north of the border.
DOBBS: Absolutely. And unfortunately, the Mexican government has yet to take responsibility for providing for its own people. That's why 10 percent of the Mexican population is now living in the United States.
Thank you, Kitty Pilgrim.
Tonight, another frightening result of our porous borders. Not only do millions of illegal aliens enter this country every year with little fear of detection or apprehension, but also, countless illegal aliens and anyone who else would commit crimes in this country can flee to Mexico to avoid extradition and escape American justice.
Lisa Sylvester reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LISA SYLVESTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): L.A. County Sheriff's Deputy David March was killed during a routine traffic stop in April 2002. The chief suspect, Armando Garcia, an illegal alien and suspected drug dealer. But Garcia never faced a day behind bars, because he fled to Mexico.
WAYNE QUINT JR., CALIFORNIA COALITION OF LAW ENFORCEMENT ASSOCIATIONS: We know where his suspected killer is. And he's not only thumbed his nose here in America. He's now doing it from Mexico.
SYLVESTER: Mexico refuses to extradite suspects who could face the death penalty or life in prison without parole.
The Los Angeles District Attorney's Office estimates as many as 1,000 criminals from California have escaped authorities by using Mexico as a back door. The U.S. Marshal's office blames a porous border system.
MARIANNE MATUS, DEPUTY U.S. MARSHAL: There are so many areas where they can just go across, where they don't necessarily need any identification. However, once they're there ,if they don't have resources, then it may be difficult for them to stay there.
SYLVESTER: U.S. law enforcement officers are hoping that President Bush will press Mexican President Vicente Fox to modify the extradition treaty so that murder suspects hiding behind the border can face justice.
March's widow met with President Bush in 2003 to plead her case at a memorial service honoring slain officers. In a follow-up letter she wrote, "You said we're going to get this guy. You looked in my eye, and I believed you. That was 15 months ago. Still, Deputy March's killer remains free."
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SYLVESTER: The suspect, Armando Garcia, was deported twice before the shooting. Each time he returned to the United States -- Lou.
DOBBS: It is extraordinary that so little is being done to change laws and to change the priorities of law enforcement, immigration, and border security in this country to permit such a thing, Lisa. Is there any indication whatsoever in Washington, D.C., that attitudes are changing at all?
SYLVESTER: Well, this is one of those issues where, for instance, the law enforcement officers, they pressed President Bush, and the widow of David March has been asking President Bush to take action. But so far we have seen no concrete results and in this case, for instance, Armando Garcia is free to go.
DOBBS: Thank you very much, Lisa Sylvester from Washington.
A federal jury in Houston today convicted a truck driver accused in the deadliest human smuggling case in American history, Tyrone Williams, convicted on 38 counts of human smuggling.
Williams, a legal resident of Jamaica, was paid $7,500 to drive a tractor trailer with 70 people crammed in the back trailer. Nineteen of those people died. Williams will not, however, face the death penalty, because the jury could not agree on all of the charges against him.
In New York today, immigration officials arrested 21 convicted criminal illegal aliens, charged with preying on children or sexual offenses. All 21 have previous conviction -- convictions on charges ranging from rape to stalking. They are now all in custody. They are awaiting deportation.
In Arizona, nine illegal aliens were caught working in the highly sensitive area of defense subcontracting. The Mexican nationals were working at a defense subcontractor in Tucson, Arizona. They used fraudulent Social Security numbers and counterfeit immigration papers in order to obtain those jobs. All nine of the illegal aliens will be returned to Mexico, but voluntarily.
And Drug Enforcement agents uncovered $20 million of marijuana smuggled into this country across the Mexican border. Authorities found 13,500 pounds of marijuana in one Tucson home, not far from a known smuggling corridor.
As we reported, President Bush today renewed his promise to Mexican President Vicente Fox to give millions of illegal aliens in this country legal status. Senior White House correspondent John King has the report. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JOHN KING, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): An afternoon stroll at the Bush ranch. The look and tone, downright neighborly.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Happy Easter, everybody.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you.
KING: The day's goal was to expand cooperation between the United States, Canada and Mexico on economic and security issues. In part, because of stiff and mounting competition from the European Union and the rising economies of India and China.
PAUL MARTIN, CANADIAN PRIME MINISTER: We cannot be complacent. The world is not standing still.
KING: President Bush says more trade is the answer, and he plugged both the proposed hemisphere-wide Free Trade Area of the Americas and the Central American free trade pact that faces stiff opposition in Congress.
BUSH: Common trading areas are going to be needed in order to maintain lifestyle, particularly as the Far East begins to emerge as a -- you know, as a -- as strong competitors for capital and goods and services and markets.
KING: It was a trilateral show of friendship. And so, by design, significant bilateral differences were played down.
BUSH: I don't know if you'd categorize them as differences that would then prevent us from finding common ground.
KING: The emotional issue of illegal immigration for Mexico's, for example, was not a formal agenda item. But it is no secret Mexico's Fox is frustrated that a four-year-old promise from President Bush to push significant immigration changes remains just that, a promise.
VICENTE FOX, MEXICAN PRESIDENT (through translator): We are seeking an objective balance between the concerns that have to do with security and those that have to do with having a good and agile flow of goods and people across the borders.
KING: Mr. Bush pledged to try again this year and made a new defense of his proposal. But much of the opposition comes from fellow Republicans in Congress, and the president suggests his political influence is limited.
BUSH: Mr. President, you've got my pledge that I'll continue working on it. You don't have my pledge that Congress will act because I'm not a member of the legislative branch.
(END VIDEOTAPE) KING: In today's public defense of his immigration plan, what he calls a new guest worker program, Mr. Bush insisted it would not discriminate against those from Mexico or anywhere else who are legally standing in line to get into the United States. But, Lou, as you well know, critics in Congress don't like that plan because they know it would give legal status to those who entered this country illegally. Mr. Bush doesn't like the label, but they call that amnesty -- Lou.
DOBBS: Another label being used. This one by the president referring to a volunteer group of American citizens who will be next month monitoring the southern border in Arizona, referring to them as President Vicente Fox has previously, as vigilantes. What is the White House thinking?
KING: Well, Lou, that is one remark that President Fox will go home happy with. He, of course, has been highly critical of those groups, citizen militias, citizen activist groups, who police the border and patrol the border with weapons sometimes because they say the Border Patrol is simply not doing its job.
Mr. Bush saying today that he wants rational enforcement of the laws, and he said, "That's why we have a Border Patrol." But the president clearly speaking out against these groups today, knowing he will face some political heat from them, especially in the border states.
The president saying he was the governor of this state of Texas, he knows those issues well. But that remark to be likely welcomed in Mexico, perhaps not welcomed in all parts of the United States, Lou, as you well know.
DOBBS: We're going to find out relatively soon, John King. Thank you very much. Our senior White House correspondent John King reporting.
Coming up next here, we'll have reaction from the group President Bush called "vigilantes" for something the federal government has failed to do, that is, secure our borders.
And five days after Terri Schiavo's feeding tube was removed, the fight continues. Tonight, Governor Jeb Bush has made a bold controversial claim about her medical diagnosis.
Those stories are coming up next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: President Vicente Fox has called upon -- has called a group of about 1,000 American citizens who plan to patrol our porous Arizona border with Mexico migrant hunters. He has said these citizens who are attempting to secure our nation's borders are acting outside the law.
Today, President Bush agreed with President Fox and called members of the Minuteman Project vigilantes. Casey Wian reports from Los Angeles.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Organizers of Arizona's Minuteman Project say their hundreds of volunteer members plan to offer it like a Neighborhood Watch program at the border. Starting April 1, the Minutemen will spread out and report suspected illegal aliens to the Border Patrol. Though some will be armed, as allowed under Arizona law, they fiercely deny accusations by illegal alien advocates that they're a vigilante group.
Still, Mexican President Vicente Fox has vowed unspecified legal action to stop them. And now after meeting with Fox, President Bush repeated the vigilante claim.
FOX (through translator): And President Bush, I want to ask you about your opinion about those people who are hunting migrant people along the border.
BUSH: I am against vigilantes in the United States of America. I am for enforcing law in a rational way. That's why we have a Border Patrol, and they ought to be in charge of enforcing the border.
WIAN: That statement sparked outrage from Chris Simcox, one of the leaders of the Minuteman Project. He told us the fact that the president would refer to American citizens demanding that he solve the border problem as "vigilantes" is pretty disrespectful of his own citizens. "We challenge the president to join us and come down and see for himself what's really going on."
While it's doubtful the president will go, a California activist group is planning to confront the minutemen. They say they will monitor the volunteers to protect the human rights of illegal aliens.
ARMANDO NAVARRO, PROFESSOR, U.C. RIVERSIDE: We are trying to prevent a border conflict situation from becoming violent. We have a mission of peace and a mission of making sure that we shake the ground of both administrations, Vicente Fox and President Bush, for these two governments and these two presidents to move as expeditiously as possible to seek some resolution before we engage in a situation where it could get out of hand at the border.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
WIAN: Now, people who live near the border say with an estimated 8,000 people illegally crossing every day, the situation is already well out of hand -- Lou.
DOBBS: And it's been well out of hand for some time. The irony of the president saying it is the Border Patrol's job and yet, in his budget, as you know, Casey, providing for only 210 additional Border Patrol agents when his own administration was saying 2,000 were needed this year alone.
What is the -- what has been the other reaction in terms of bringing these activists together who are basically pro illegal immigration and pro open borders and the Minuteman Project, which we should be clear, they intend only to monitor the border and the Border Patrol carrying out their job?
WIAN: Well, the activists say they're only going to monitor the Minutemen. They say they're going to plan rallies and protests on both sides of the border.
The one thing that is interesting and is relevant to today's news events is that the two sides agree on one thing. And that is President Bush and President Fox of Mexico have not done enough to fix the problems that exist at the border -- Lou.
DOBBS: Casey, thank you very much. Casey Wian reporting from Los Angeles.
That brings us to the subject of our poll tonight. Are you offended by President Bush's decision to side with Mexican President Fox in calling American citizens who volunteer to monitor our southern border "vigilantes?" Yes or no? Cast your vote at loudobbs.com. We'll have the results here later in the broadcast.
A follow-up now to our report this week on what banks are now referring to as banking the unbanked. That is their politically correct term for offering bank accounts to millions of illegal aliens in this country, the unbanked. Many banks are also offering loans to those who broke American laws to come to this country.
Christine Romans has the report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): In this Chicago neighborhood, Mark Doyle is providing the American dream of homeownership to illegal aliens. In the last seven months, he's loaned $80 million to homebuyers who are in this country illegally.
MARK DOYLE, PRESIDENT, SECOND FEDERAL SAVINGS BANK: We're not near the Mexican border. We're not encouraging people to come up here to Chicago. We are simply living up to our charter, which is to provide for housing opportunities for our residents of the communities that we're in.
ROMANS: He sees $300 million in lending opportunity in his neighborhood. Almost $6 billion in Chicago.
There are no national numbers, but all over the country banks are giving home loans to illegal aliens. They are called ITIN mortgages after the U.S. taxpayer I.D. number the government uses to collect taxes from those people working illegally in this country. A recent report pegged the potential market for homeownership among illegals at $44 billion.
GARY ACOSTA, NAHREP: We think that the benefits greatly outweigh any drawbacks that may exist by allowing this segment of the population to participate in homeownership in the same way that other taxpayers do. ROMANS: But critics say the loans insult the men and women enforcing American borders.
GLENN GROTHMAN (R), WISCONSIN STATE SENATE: Oh, it's a total insult to them. It implies that we really don't want them to do -- to have a job.
I mean, think about that. If you are going to give a low- interest loan to an illegal alien, it apparently means you don't expect that illegal alien ever to leave the country, right? Or you wouldn't even allow them to buy the house.
ROMANS: He's written legislation to stop the loans in Wisconsin, calling them a slap in the face of law enforcement and legal immigrants.
ROB PARAL, AMERICAN IMMIGRATION LAW FOUNDATION: I don't think the largest banks and financial institutions in the United States are slapping anyone in the face with this. What they see are families that include, as I say, U.S. citizens and legal permanent residents that live with these undocumented immigrants, and they see that they are very solid people. Ironically, financially, and in terms of their behavior, they're often as American as apple pie.
ROMANS: But so far the U.S. government doesn't go quite that far. Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae will not repurchase those loans, and the Federal Housing Administration says "FHA does not permit mortgages for illegal aliens."
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ROMANS: But that doesn't mean the public won't hold the bag if these mortgages go back. Say 50 families in one community head to Canada for better jobs, or say another administration starts to enforce immigration laws, then you have the deposits which are used in these community banks to make the mortgages. Those deposits are ensured by the FDIC. That's the government, that's you and me -- Lou.
DOBBS: And the tax dollars, and they will obviously have to step in. It's a fascinating battle over our immigration laws, border security and the language. Banking the unbanked, the temerity of these people to disregard our laws, to put, again, squarely on the taxpayer and working men and women in this country, particularly those working at lower-income levels.
ROMANS: I hear more and more that this is a business opportunity, this is a growing market. These are people who pay their bills. And, "Oh, by the way, Christine, we don't enforce the immigration laws. We're just deal with reality." We hear this all the time.
DOBBS: It's also an extraordinary publication that you showed us in which, what was it, undocumented Latino immigrants...
ROMANS: Yes.
DOBBS: ... well, obviously, they are using U.S. tax IDs. They have matricula consulars. Those are documents, aren't they?
ROMANS: It sounds to me like they are documented immigrants at this point, yes.
DOBBS: Documented illegal immigrants I guess is the way they'd have to change it to be politically correct and at least somewhat reaching. This is a pathetic state of affairs.
The Comptroller of the Currency, the office, the Federal Reserve, all of these agencies responsible for regulating these banks are permitting this to go on. This is utter madness.
ROMANS: And they're saying the banks bear the risk. And they keep pointing out to the banks, it's your responsibility to make sure you know your customer and that you know that these people have the ability to pay. But these people are in the country illegally. If something changes...
DOBBS: If they are apprehended, for example...
ROMANS: They wouldn't be able to pay.
DOBBS: It's amazing. We're going to continue to follow this. Christine, outstanding reporting.
ROMANS: Thank you.
DOBBS: And we will be following this story closely for the days and weeks ahead. Thank you. Christine Romans.
Up next here, we'll have much more on the millions of illegal aliens in this country and the many benefits they receive. Two experts will be here to debate in our "Face Off" tonight a number of issues, including whether illegal aliens should be allowed to have drivers' licenses. Yes, that's still an issue in this country. And it's here next.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: We reported earlier this week about some of the outrageous comments made by Mexican President Vicente Fox and other Mexican government officials. Those comments all related to the invasion of illegal aliens into this country.
One in particular we mentioned was the comment "No country that is proud of itself should build walls," referring to the border wall under construction in the San Diego area. My guest tonight in our "Face Off" have two very different views about the president of Mexico's comments and the issues of border security and immigration reform in itself.
In Washington, Steven Camarota He is the director of research at the Center for Immigration Studies.
Steve, it's good to have you with us.
He says those who object to walls believe in illegal immigration.
Brent Wilkes is the executive director of the League of United Latin American Citizens, who says a wall would be offensive and ineffective.
It is good to have you both with us.
Thanks for being here, Brent.
BRENT WILKES, LEAGUE OF UNITED LATIN AMERICAN CITIZENS: Thanks for having us.
DOBBS: Let me start with your position that it's offensive to have a wall. How so?
WILKES: Yes. Well, it's offensive because it's only being applied to the southern border, and it's not being applied to the northern border.
My understanding, it's supposed to be about security, but we found that every terrorist that's come to the United States across a land border has come in from Canada. And yet we're not talking about any kind of laws in Canada.
It's also offensive in the same way that the Berlin was offensive. Why should we separate peoples?
I agree with Vicente Fox, that a nation that is secure and proud of itself doesn't need a border like that. We can make changes to our laws and we can have a very positive and progressive and legal immigration procedure and not have to wall ourselves off from the rest of the world.
DOBBS: Steven?
STEVEN CAMAROTA, CENTER FOR IMMIGRATION STUDIES: I mean, obviously that's absurd. We have had terrorists come across the southern border.
There's a Hezbollah terrorist right now who's been charged in Michigan who came across the southern border. We had a Pakistani- affiliated al Qaeda terrorist come across the southern border a few months ago. So it's pretty clear the southern border matters.
Look, all a fence or border fence would do is make sure you can't cross between the legitimate legal border crossing points. Anyone who objects to that simply doesn't believe in the United States defending its border. It's absurd.
WILKES: Why not at the border with Canada, Steve?
CAMAROTA: Well, I think everyone recognizes that there are a lot more people, about 18 times more, illegal aliens from Mexico in the United States than from Canada. WILKES: Well, let's compare terrorists. Let's compare terrorists.
CAMAROTA: But everybody and everyone recognizes that we need to defend both borders.
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: Our audience is pretty sophisticated. So I would just like to get rid of a couple of pieces of the rhetoric here.
WILKES: Sure. Yes.
DOBBS: One is, we do know why the southern border, because 98 percent of the illegal immigration is occurring on the southern border. But like you say, Brent, I personally believe that wherever there is an issue of illegal immigration and a breakdown in border security that we should enforce it to the maximum, don't you?
WILKES: I agree that border security is important. We should protect ourselves from terrorists. But the biggest loophole right now is on the Canadian border. That's where all the 9/11 hijackers came across, not from Mexico.
DOBBS: So you're not concerned about the estimated 50,000 persons who -- other -- OTMs, as it were, and most of those, many of those from countries that are on our terrorist watch, in fact, cross the Mexican border?
WILKES: I think we should be concerned about border security. And our organization supports that.
DOBBS: Yes.
WILKES: We also don't feel that you should confuse the two issues. There's undocumented immigration...
DOBBS: I assure you, there's no confusion here whatsoever.
Let me ask you both this. Could you both agree that whatever immigration reform takes place in this country, and it's a critical, critical issue now, that it has to, as a condition precedent, we have to take control of our borders. Can you both agree on that?
CAMAROTA: Absolutely. Look, even if you favor the kinds of proposal that the president wants, which is like a massive amnesty, a huge guest worker program, 10 million illegal aliens get some kind of legal status, the only way to push people into that kind of program is if you defend the border. If you make it difficult for illegal aliens to get jobs and get drivers' licenses and so forth. Otherwise, why in the heck would anyone ever sign up for such a program?
You have to -- the idea of any kind of program like that presupposes we take control of our borders, we penalize employers for hiring illegal aliens and sure as heck don't make sure -- make sure illegal aliens don't driver's licenses and in-state college tuition or else there's no way for that program to even work, assuming you think it's a good idea.
WILKES: Steve, that's ridiculous. If there was a legal process for people to come here to work and they didn't have to violate our immigration laws in order to do that, which they currently have to now, then that's the avenue they would take. They don't want to break our laws, but there's no alternative right now. If a proposal that President Bush and Vicente Fox discussed became law, you'd see millions of people signing up for that and they would not violate our border laws.
DOBBS: But my question was this -- would you support, as a condition precedent to immigration reform, absolute border security so that we could control our borders and the flow of people across our borders?
WILKES: No, Lou, we'd support it as part of a package, but we wouldn't support it as a precondition. Because that's been used to stop any kind of immigration reform.
DOBBS: When has that happened?
WILKES: Many people have said let's control the borders and then talk about immigration reform.
DOBBS: You said it's been used. I'd like to hear when that occurred.
WILKES: Since 1986, we haven't had any positive immigration reform in this country. And that's one of their excuses, let's first gain control of the border and then talk about immigration reform. No, we'll talk about it at the same time. That's fine. It's part of the package.
DOBBS: Let me say this then -- let me just ask one quick question. I know you want to get in here Steve. But if we can't control our borders as a condition precedent to immigration reform, how in the world could we avoid a further massive invasion of illegal aliens into this country? And how could we take control of the borders and know who was exiting and who was entering the country? I'm a little lost on that.
CAMAROTA: I mean, look, the...
DOBBS: I'm asking Brent, actually.
WILKES: Oh, it's very simple. If you have a legal process, they won't be coming across illegally in the first place. And second of all, you can have it as part of the package and it will strengthen our borders, certainly.
DOBBS: Steve you, get the last word.
CAMAROTA: Obviously, that's silly. In 1986, for example, we actually said, we legalize about 3 million illegal aliens. And then we didn't enforce the law. We didn't enforce the law, we end up replacing all of the illegal aliens. The bottom line is if you want people to sign up, even if you think the program is ridiculous, if you want people to sign up for it, you have to enforce the laws. That's a perquisite.
DOBBS: Gentleman, we thank you both for being here. Brent Wilkes, Steven Camarota, thank you very much gentleman.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thanks for having me.
DOBBS: A reminder to vote in our poll tonight. "Are you offended by President Bush's decision to side with Mexican President Fox in calling American citizens who intend to volunteer to monitor our southern border vigilantes?" Yes or no? Cast your vote at loudobbs.com. We'll have the results here in just a few moments.
Coming up next, the life or death battle for the life of Terri Schiavo. Why Governor Jeb Bush tonight says Schiavo's diagnosis -- her medical diagnosis may in fact not be accurate.
And, my interview with the best-selling author Pastor Rick Warren and his message of hope, reconciliation and purpose next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Florida Governor Jeb Bush tonight is petitioning a state court to turn custody of Terri Schiavo over to the state government. Governor Bush is also challenging the medical diagnosis that Schiavo is in what is termed a persistent vegetative state.
This comes after a federal appellate court today rejected two separate requests by Schiavo's parents to have their daughter's feeding tube restored.
Bob Franken is in Pinellas Park, Florida tonight. And has the report for us -- Bob.
BOB FRANKEN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well Lou, let's start with that state judge. The state judge who is George Greer, the judge who ordered the disconnection of the tube, is now saying that the governor cannot use his Adult Protective Services to take custody of Terri Schiavo. The governor had contended that he wouldn't even need court authorization. But the judge has now assertively ordered that that not be done.
At the same news conference that Governor Bush announced that plan, he also introduced the evidence from a prominent -- he called, a prominent neurologist -- who said that there was some question whether Terri Schiavo has -- truly does have a persistent vegetative state, which has been the diagnosis which has caused the decision to disconnect her feeding tube.
This doctor, however, has not conducted a thorough examination.
The governor also said he wanted to investigate charges of abuse that had been leveled by a few people many years ago who did not have personal knowledge of the relationship. At any rate, Governor Bush said he was interceding -- the Senate by this time had turned down legislation which would have caused the reconnection of the feeding tube so the governor said he feels he has to get involved.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GOV. JEB BUSH, (R) FLORIDA: Terri is now going on her sixth day without food or water. It is imperative that she be stabilized so that the Adult Protective Services team can fulfill their statutory duty and thoroughly review all of the facts surrounding her case. If there's any uncertainty, we should err on the side of protecting her.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
FRANKEN: Uncertainty also with the judicial situation. So tonight Terri Schiavo remains off her feeding tube where she's been since Friday -- Lou.
DOBBS: Bob Franken, thank you very much, reporting from Pinellas Park, Florida.
Coming up next, "The Purpose Driven Life," Pastor Rick Warren will be talking about the Terri Schiavo case. He will also share his views on the role of religion in our society and a great deal more. Please stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: My next guest and his bestselling book have been credited with helping to save the life of Ashley Smith, the woman who was taken hostage in Atlanta by Brian Nichols.
Smith read portions of "The Purpose-Driven Life" to the murder suspect, and she ultimately convinced him that his purpose might be to surrender, to go to prison, and teach others about God.
Pastor Rick Warren is the author of that book. I asked him earlier the secret to his book's incredible, incredible success.
PASTOR RICK WARREN, AUTHOR, "THE PURPOSE-DRIVEN LIFE": Well, you know, Lou, it's the overnight success that took 25 years. It's really much bigger. The book is just a small part of a much bigger movement that we've been working on for about 25 years.
I decided a long time ago that I was going to stay off the airwaves in terms of putting the -- our church services on TV and things like that, so that I wouldn't be a celebrity. But I began to train pastors in the early '90s. And I've trained about a quarter of a million pastors here in America.
So when I suggested that we do 40 days of purpose together, tens of thousands of churches began to pick it up, and the book became an instant success.
DOBBS: And a long-running success as well, and likely to have an even much greater run now because of the Brian Nichols shootings in Atlanta and the extraordinary courage of Ashley Smith.
I understand you speak with her almost daily.
WARREN: Yes. I am talking with her every day, just kind of giving her pastoral encouragement, praying with her, you know, reading Scripture to her, talking with her about how to handle all of this newfound fame, and, you know, the media and things like that, and just trying to be a friend.
DOBBS: As friend, as pastor, let me ask -- and of course, you certainly don't have to answer if it is beyond convention, but I am sure that many folks, including myself, would like to know -- just generally, what you're saying to her on how to handle what was such a traumatic event, in which she displayed remarkable courage, but now has to deal with all that is attendant following the events.
WARREN: Well, I think, Lou, most of life is beyond our control. We're -- you know, we didn't choose where we were born, when we were born, who our parents were, a lot of things that happen. She certainly didn't plan this event. She just went out for a pack of cigarettes, and God opened up this opportunity for her to share with Brian Nichols, read the passage out of the book, and it changed his life.
And as I told her one time, I said, It's, you know, it's a surprise to all of us, but it's not a surprise to God. He knew it would happen even before she was born. And so there is a plan and a purpose in this. And he's going to use her as a simple spokesman.
I have noticed that God uses ordinary people to get things done. He doesn't use saints. He doesn't use theologians, you know, or people who are perfect, because there are no perfect people. He just uses normal people. And she happened to be the person that God wanted to use at this point.
DOBBS: So much of what is normal, it seems these days, Pastor Warren, is tragic. The young man, the high school student in Red Lake, Minnesota, who killed 10 people, including himself. Within the context of your religion, explain that event as best you can, and how your faith enables you and others to deal with it.
WARREN: Yes. Well, the first place is that when people feel hopeless, Lou, they do hopeless things. That's what Brian Nichols did. That's what this kid did up in Minnesota. It happens all around us. When people feel hopeless, they do hopeless things.
And there are two tracks in life. There's always good things going on in life. There are always bad things going on in life. And I used to think life was hills and valleys, that you have a good time, then a bad time, good time, and a bad time.
But I now believe that they run simultaneously, and that's just part of life. And no matter how bad things are in my life, there's something I can thank God for, and no matter how good things are in my life, there's something that needs to be worked on. And I find that faith in Christ, that faith in God helps me have the strength to handle both the good and the bad. And we have to deal with them both through life. That's life. This is not heaven. This is Earth. And Earth is an imperfect place.
DOBBS: I can't talk with you without talking about Terri Schiavo.
WARREN: Sure.
DOBBS: What is your best judgment as to what the proper course is for her life?
WARREN: Yes. I think the problem with the Terri Schiavo case is that it's become a case, and we've forgotten the person and made it more an ideological battle. This is a woman who was not dying. She is not on life support. She is not brain-dead. She is smiling. She laughs. She has responses. And she was not dying until somebody decided to starve her.
And my question is, who's in such a hurry to take her life? I know that there are millions of people in America who would be willing to pay for her feeding. And since when did we decide that people who can't feed themselves ought to die? If that's true, then we ought to let all the babies die, because they can't feed themselves.
There's a difference between being in a vegetative state and being brain-dead. This is a woman who is not brain-dead. Doctors will tell you that people will live in a vegetative state often 15, 20, or more years. It is not likely that she'll come out of it. But it does happen sometimes.
And I believe that as long as there's life, there's hope, and that there is even a purpose for Terri Schiavo's life. It may be even be of an encouragement to others. And, of course, many people have talked about severely brain-damaged or retarded children that often brought a lot of joy into their lives who couldn't contribute. But you don't stop feeding them just because they are brain-damaged or retarded.
And so I feel like the question ought to be, why is this husband in such a hurry to let this woman die? He's already began his own life with another woman. He's had two kids by her. And I don't recommend divorce, but it's certainly preferable to letting a person die.
DOBBS: In your judgment, as we're also wrestling with the separation of church and state in this country, is there a sufficient separation, or is there, in Pastor Rick Warren's view, not sufficient combining of the values of religion and politics and government?
WARREN: Well, I don't believe in the combination of government and any particular religion. I do believe in the freedom, that we have the freedom to -- everybody to worship as they see fit. In fact, I'd fight for that and die for that, because it's given us the most prosperous nation in the world. What bothers me is the people who try to rewrite history in revisionism, and act as if that the people who founded our nation weren't very spiritual, and even Christian or Judeo-Christian leaders. The fact is, they were.
And honestly, Lou, I think that when you have these arguments in court about, Are we going to take off "In God we trust" off the money, or "One nation under God" out of the Pledge, those are really silly arguments to me. Does anybody really believe that anybody's ever converted to any faith because of "In God we trust" on the money?
You know, when I go to Thailand, I am not upset by the fact that there are Buddhas all around the capital. When I go to Saudi Arabia, I am not upset by the fact that there's a crescent flag and there's a mosque nearby. That is the spiritual heritage of those nations.
And so to say, Well, we've got to take the 10 Commandments out of the Supreme Court, where they are, or we've got to take the statue of Moses out of the Library of Congress, where it is, or we've got to take the Scripture references out of the Capitol, that's just basically to rewrite history.
And that's not saying that we condone any particular religion. It's just that our founders had that background. And so we are a pluralistic nation. And we -- by the way, we are not a secular nation, as many people say. We are not a secular, we are a religious nation. Ninety-six percent of the people in this nation believe in God, and they happen to have different religious beliefs, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, you know, Muslim.
But this is the most religious nation in the world, maybe second only to India.
DOBBS: Pastor Warren, let me ask you one last question. Since we have you on the airwaves here, and you don't -- you've shunned celebrity, but let me give you this opportunity, if there were one message you wanted to get out to the broadest number of people, what would that be?
WARREN: You know, I think, Lou, that there's a common thread in the story in Minnesota, the story in Terri Schiavo, the story in Ashley Smith, and what happens this week that we call Easter Week. And that is the message of hope. The number one thing that people are looking for right now in life is a reason for hope. They -- not a false sense of hope, but a real reason for hope. And I think the message of Easter is that God can bring good out of bad.
That God can turn crucifixions into resurrections, that no situation is hopeless. There are people who are probably watching this show that think, I'm beyond God. I've done too many bad things or I've done to many wrong things or my situation is hopeless, and I would say to them, you're wrong -- that there is hope. And the message of "The Purpose Driven Life" book, you don't have to go read the book. Just go to church on Easter and you'll hear it all over America, that there is hope.
DOBBS: Pastor Rick Warren, thank you for being here.
WARREN: Thank you, Lou.
DOBBS: It's been said by a lot of folks, but there is, without question, one remarkable fellow. Religion is the reason, by the way, several IMAX theaters in the south are now refusing to show a film on volcanoes. Those theater owners are concerned the IMAX film, "Volcanoes of the Deep Sea" might offend people with strong religious beliefs. The reason, the film draws a link between human DNA and microbes inside underwater volcanoes. The director of the IMAX Theater in Charleston, for example, says many people down here believe in creationism not evolution.
Power struggles. Why my next guest says there's no short-term solution to our energy crisis. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Gas and oil prices at new record highs this past week. My guest tonight says we must produce more of our own energy in order to avoid economic peril. Senator Pete Domenici is the chairman of the Senate Energy and Natural Resource Committee who voted in favor of opening drilling in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge.
Senator Domenici joins us tonight from Washington.
Senator, good to have you with us.
SEN. PETE DOMENICI (R), CHAIRMAN OF ENERGY AND NATURAL RESOURCE COMMITTEE: Lou, I'm delighted. You know, I left the Budget Committee. That's when you used to have me on a lot. We talked about economics. And I left that to see if I could help with the energy crisis, took over this committee. And now I want to tell you right off this is the year, without any question, we've got to produce a national energy policy, and we will.
DOBBS: And this past year, Senator, as you well know is the year we saw crude oil prices soar 50 percent.
DOMENICI: Skyrocket.
DOBBS: What in the world are we going to do, because this is starting to look like a very serious long-term economic problem.
DOMENICI: Well, Lou, let me tell you, you are aware of how we do things. Sometimes we act right on time. We see the problem and we get on it. There's been warnings. They're been -- we've been talking about, maybe for 25 years, that our growing dependence upon crude oil from overseas is serious. I can remember, I came to the Senate 33- years-ago. They were then preaching oil independence, energy independence. We can't do that anymore because we can't become independent. We don't know how to get out from under the need for oil as part of our American economy and our way of life.
But what we must do is minimize our dependence. We've got to conserve and produce. Some people say, we don't need to produce anymore because we can conserve. You've got to do both. The dependence is so big that right now this powerful nation, forget our economics for a while. Just our power, our prestige, it is hanging in the balance and the thread is that crude oil would be denied to us for any period of time by a war, by terrorists. We would actually be on our knees. It's so serious.
DOBBS: Is there enough oil domestically that we could produce anytime?
DOMENICI: No, sir.
DOBBS: So effectively, we're going to be dependent, no matter what, right?
DOMENICI: The only way -- if oil prices got high enough and it may be there right now. We're going to see, we have more oil tied up in shale, under ground in the states of Colorado and Utah. More oil tied up underground than all of the reserves of oil, the kind of oil we use now in the whole world. But we have to convert it. Under ground we have to convert it.
DOBBS: A technology issue.
DOMENICI: And we have the technology. The question is, when you add all the problems together, can you do it at a price of oil that will permit you to do that economically. I'm going to pursue that with some vigor now.
DOBBS: Well, we wish you all the best. It's certainly in our interest you succeed. Senator Pete Domenici, we thank you for being with us here.
DOMENICI: Let me say, the energy bill has to -- has to set a policy that we produce all kinds of energy, including nuclear.
DOBBS: We appreciate you being with us. Thank you. I'm sorry we're out of time.
Still ahead, the results of our poll, a preview of what's ahead tomorrow.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Our poll results -- 95 percent of you responded to say you are offended by President Bush's decision to side with Mexican President Fox in calling American citizens who volunteer to monitor our southern border vigilantes.
And that is our broadcast for this evening. We thank you for being with us tonight. Join us tomorrow. A the former INS agent who says this country continues to have an immigration crisis and enforcement.
We'll hope you'll be with us. For us here, good night from New York. ANDERSON COOPER 360 is next.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired March 23, 2005 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LOU DOBBS, HOST: Tonight, the three leaders of Mexico, Canada and the United States meet to talk about border security, economics and immigration. President Bush today said one way, in his opinion, to better enforce our border is with compassion. We'll have a live report from the president's ranch in Texas.
And in our "Face Off" tonight, two experts debate the best solutions to our immigration crisis.
And banking the unbanked. Some U.S. banks are not only offering bank accounts to illegal aliens; they're also giving them loans. We'll have that special report.
Also tonight, desperate new appeals in the Terri Schiavo case, how her parents and the state of Florida are fighting to keep her alive. We'll have the latest. And the fundamental issues in this case, according to the best-selling author of "The Purpose Driven Life," Pastor Rick Warren.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PASTOR RICK WARREN, AUTHOR, "THE PURPOSE DRIVEN LIFE": My question is, who's in such a hurry to take her life? I know that there are millions of people in America who would be willing to pay for her feeding, and since when did we decide that people who can't feed themselves ought to die? If that's true, then we ought to let all the babies die, because they can't feed themselves.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: I'll be talking with Pastor Warren on the Terri Schiavo case, the shootings in Atlanta and Minnesota, and the role of religion in our society. He's our special guest tonight.
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS for news, debate and opinion, tonight.
DOBBS: Good evening.
President Bush today met with the leaders of Mexico and Canada on expanding, as they put it, prosperity and security in North America. President Bush also renewed his promise to Mexican President Vicente Fox to give millions of illegal aliens in this country legal status.
Senior White House correspondent John King reports. We're told there are technical problems, and for that, I apologize. We'll be getting back to John King's report later here in the broadcast.
President Bush today also sparked some outrage with his comment about the upcoming Minuteman Project in Arizona. The president called that group of volunteers, who will be monitoring our southern border, quote, "vigilantes" as President Vicente Fox has called them previously. We'll have reaction from the Minutemen and what they say President Bush should be doing to protect our borders still ahead here tonight.
Today's summit was billed as a trade and security meeting between equal nations. The three leaders highlighted a strong and unified North America. But the fact, which all three leaders chose to ignore, the fact is Mexico is hardly an equal partner, hardly is Canada. And when compared to the United States and Canada, it is all simply worlds apart.
Kitty Pilgrim has the story.
KITTY PILGRIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, it's a really interesting story when you look at the difference between Canada and Mexico and the United States.
You have literacy rates that are quite different. You have infant mortality rates that are quite different, and you have life expectancy rates that are quite different.
You see the poverty rate in Mexico. Forty percent of the population on the poverty level.
DOBBS: An extraordinary level. And the agriculture poverty rate, 80 percent. It is utterly remarkable.
The trade relationships among the three nations: Canada, a nation of 30 million people, Mexico, a nation of 100 million people, the United States, 300 million. The disparities, as those who support NAFTA and these three leaders try to come to together, are just extraordinary.
PILGRIM: When you look at the institutional differences, as you say the economic differences, one of the facts that really struck me in reporting this story today was that 90 percent of the population of Canada lives in a 100-mile strip right on the border. And yet the border issues with Canada are not nearly as exacerbated as the border issues with Mexico, simply because of the living disparity.
DOBBS: The living conditions, the standard of living, which is significantly different than that, of course, the United States or Canada.
The difficulty in this, it seems to many, is that the government of Mexico, now literally for decades, has failed to provide leadership and to create an economy that can sustain its own people. PILGRIM: It's quite striking when you look at the -- the differences in income. And we were looking at remittances of Mexicans who come into the United States. It's one of the big stories here. The amount of money that they send back to relatives in Mexico is $16 billion. And that is something that the Mexican economy is dependent on.
So it's a very striking difference. The prosperity comes from north of the border.
DOBBS: Absolutely. And unfortunately, the Mexican government has yet to take responsibility for providing for its own people. That's why 10 percent of the Mexican population is now living in the United States.
Thank you, Kitty Pilgrim.
Tonight, another frightening result of our porous borders. Not only do millions of illegal aliens enter this country every year with little fear of detection or apprehension, but also, countless illegal aliens and anyone who else would commit crimes in this country can flee to Mexico to avoid extradition and escape American justice.
Lisa Sylvester reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LISA SYLVESTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): L.A. County Sheriff's Deputy David March was killed during a routine traffic stop in April 2002. The chief suspect, Armando Garcia, an illegal alien and suspected drug dealer. But Garcia never faced a day behind bars, because he fled to Mexico.
WAYNE QUINT JR., CALIFORNIA COALITION OF LAW ENFORCEMENT ASSOCIATIONS: We know where his suspected killer is. And he's not only thumbed his nose here in America. He's now doing it from Mexico.
SYLVESTER: Mexico refuses to extradite suspects who could face the death penalty or life in prison without parole.
The Los Angeles District Attorney's Office estimates as many as 1,000 criminals from California have escaped authorities by using Mexico as a back door. The U.S. Marshal's office blames a porous border system.
MARIANNE MATUS, DEPUTY U.S. MARSHAL: There are so many areas where they can just go across, where they don't necessarily need any identification. However, once they're there ,if they don't have resources, then it may be difficult for them to stay there.
SYLVESTER: U.S. law enforcement officers are hoping that President Bush will press Mexican President Vicente Fox to modify the extradition treaty so that murder suspects hiding behind the border can face justice.
March's widow met with President Bush in 2003 to plead her case at a memorial service honoring slain officers. In a follow-up letter she wrote, "You said we're going to get this guy. You looked in my eye, and I believed you. That was 15 months ago. Still, Deputy March's killer remains free."
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SYLVESTER: The suspect, Armando Garcia, was deported twice before the shooting. Each time he returned to the United States -- Lou.
DOBBS: It is extraordinary that so little is being done to change laws and to change the priorities of law enforcement, immigration, and border security in this country to permit such a thing, Lisa. Is there any indication whatsoever in Washington, D.C., that attitudes are changing at all?
SYLVESTER: Well, this is one of those issues where, for instance, the law enforcement officers, they pressed President Bush, and the widow of David March has been asking President Bush to take action. But so far we have seen no concrete results and in this case, for instance, Armando Garcia is free to go.
DOBBS: Thank you very much, Lisa Sylvester from Washington.
A federal jury in Houston today convicted a truck driver accused in the deadliest human smuggling case in American history, Tyrone Williams, convicted on 38 counts of human smuggling.
Williams, a legal resident of Jamaica, was paid $7,500 to drive a tractor trailer with 70 people crammed in the back trailer. Nineteen of those people died. Williams will not, however, face the death penalty, because the jury could not agree on all of the charges against him.
In New York today, immigration officials arrested 21 convicted criminal illegal aliens, charged with preying on children or sexual offenses. All 21 have previous conviction -- convictions on charges ranging from rape to stalking. They are now all in custody. They are awaiting deportation.
In Arizona, nine illegal aliens were caught working in the highly sensitive area of defense subcontracting. The Mexican nationals were working at a defense subcontractor in Tucson, Arizona. They used fraudulent Social Security numbers and counterfeit immigration papers in order to obtain those jobs. All nine of the illegal aliens will be returned to Mexico, but voluntarily.
And Drug Enforcement agents uncovered $20 million of marijuana smuggled into this country across the Mexican border. Authorities found 13,500 pounds of marijuana in one Tucson home, not far from a known smuggling corridor.
As we reported, President Bush today renewed his promise to Mexican President Vicente Fox to give millions of illegal aliens in this country legal status. Senior White House correspondent John King has the report. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JOHN KING, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): An afternoon stroll at the Bush ranch. The look and tone, downright neighborly.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Happy Easter, everybody.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you.
KING: The day's goal was to expand cooperation between the United States, Canada and Mexico on economic and security issues. In part, because of stiff and mounting competition from the European Union and the rising economies of India and China.
PAUL MARTIN, CANADIAN PRIME MINISTER: We cannot be complacent. The world is not standing still.
KING: President Bush says more trade is the answer, and he plugged both the proposed hemisphere-wide Free Trade Area of the Americas and the Central American free trade pact that faces stiff opposition in Congress.
BUSH: Common trading areas are going to be needed in order to maintain lifestyle, particularly as the Far East begins to emerge as a -- you know, as a -- as strong competitors for capital and goods and services and markets.
KING: It was a trilateral show of friendship. And so, by design, significant bilateral differences were played down.
BUSH: I don't know if you'd categorize them as differences that would then prevent us from finding common ground.
KING: The emotional issue of illegal immigration for Mexico's, for example, was not a formal agenda item. But it is no secret Mexico's Fox is frustrated that a four-year-old promise from President Bush to push significant immigration changes remains just that, a promise.
VICENTE FOX, MEXICAN PRESIDENT (through translator): We are seeking an objective balance between the concerns that have to do with security and those that have to do with having a good and agile flow of goods and people across the borders.
KING: Mr. Bush pledged to try again this year and made a new defense of his proposal. But much of the opposition comes from fellow Republicans in Congress, and the president suggests his political influence is limited.
BUSH: Mr. President, you've got my pledge that I'll continue working on it. You don't have my pledge that Congress will act because I'm not a member of the legislative branch.
(END VIDEOTAPE) KING: In today's public defense of his immigration plan, what he calls a new guest worker program, Mr. Bush insisted it would not discriminate against those from Mexico or anywhere else who are legally standing in line to get into the United States. But, Lou, as you well know, critics in Congress don't like that plan because they know it would give legal status to those who entered this country illegally. Mr. Bush doesn't like the label, but they call that amnesty -- Lou.
DOBBS: Another label being used. This one by the president referring to a volunteer group of American citizens who will be next month monitoring the southern border in Arizona, referring to them as President Vicente Fox has previously, as vigilantes. What is the White House thinking?
KING: Well, Lou, that is one remark that President Fox will go home happy with. He, of course, has been highly critical of those groups, citizen militias, citizen activist groups, who police the border and patrol the border with weapons sometimes because they say the Border Patrol is simply not doing its job.
Mr. Bush saying today that he wants rational enforcement of the laws, and he said, "That's why we have a Border Patrol." But the president clearly speaking out against these groups today, knowing he will face some political heat from them, especially in the border states.
The president saying he was the governor of this state of Texas, he knows those issues well. But that remark to be likely welcomed in Mexico, perhaps not welcomed in all parts of the United States, Lou, as you well know.
DOBBS: We're going to find out relatively soon, John King. Thank you very much. Our senior White House correspondent John King reporting.
Coming up next here, we'll have reaction from the group President Bush called "vigilantes" for something the federal government has failed to do, that is, secure our borders.
And five days after Terri Schiavo's feeding tube was removed, the fight continues. Tonight, Governor Jeb Bush has made a bold controversial claim about her medical diagnosis.
Those stories are coming up next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: President Vicente Fox has called upon -- has called a group of about 1,000 American citizens who plan to patrol our porous Arizona border with Mexico migrant hunters. He has said these citizens who are attempting to secure our nation's borders are acting outside the law.
Today, President Bush agreed with President Fox and called members of the Minuteman Project vigilantes. Casey Wian reports from Los Angeles.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Organizers of Arizona's Minuteman Project say their hundreds of volunteer members plan to offer it like a Neighborhood Watch program at the border. Starting April 1, the Minutemen will spread out and report suspected illegal aliens to the Border Patrol. Though some will be armed, as allowed under Arizona law, they fiercely deny accusations by illegal alien advocates that they're a vigilante group.
Still, Mexican President Vicente Fox has vowed unspecified legal action to stop them. And now after meeting with Fox, President Bush repeated the vigilante claim.
FOX (through translator): And President Bush, I want to ask you about your opinion about those people who are hunting migrant people along the border.
BUSH: I am against vigilantes in the United States of America. I am for enforcing law in a rational way. That's why we have a Border Patrol, and they ought to be in charge of enforcing the border.
WIAN: That statement sparked outrage from Chris Simcox, one of the leaders of the Minuteman Project. He told us the fact that the president would refer to American citizens demanding that he solve the border problem as "vigilantes" is pretty disrespectful of his own citizens. "We challenge the president to join us and come down and see for himself what's really going on."
While it's doubtful the president will go, a California activist group is planning to confront the minutemen. They say they will monitor the volunteers to protect the human rights of illegal aliens.
ARMANDO NAVARRO, PROFESSOR, U.C. RIVERSIDE: We are trying to prevent a border conflict situation from becoming violent. We have a mission of peace and a mission of making sure that we shake the ground of both administrations, Vicente Fox and President Bush, for these two governments and these two presidents to move as expeditiously as possible to seek some resolution before we engage in a situation where it could get out of hand at the border.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
WIAN: Now, people who live near the border say with an estimated 8,000 people illegally crossing every day, the situation is already well out of hand -- Lou.
DOBBS: And it's been well out of hand for some time. The irony of the president saying it is the Border Patrol's job and yet, in his budget, as you know, Casey, providing for only 210 additional Border Patrol agents when his own administration was saying 2,000 were needed this year alone.
What is the -- what has been the other reaction in terms of bringing these activists together who are basically pro illegal immigration and pro open borders and the Minuteman Project, which we should be clear, they intend only to monitor the border and the Border Patrol carrying out their job?
WIAN: Well, the activists say they're only going to monitor the Minutemen. They say they're going to plan rallies and protests on both sides of the border.
The one thing that is interesting and is relevant to today's news events is that the two sides agree on one thing. And that is President Bush and President Fox of Mexico have not done enough to fix the problems that exist at the border -- Lou.
DOBBS: Casey, thank you very much. Casey Wian reporting from Los Angeles.
That brings us to the subject of our poll tonight. Are you offended by President Bush's decision to side with Mexican President Fox in calling American citizens who volunteer to monitor our southern border "vigilantes?" Yes or no? Cast your vote at loudobbs.com. We'll have the results here later in the broadcast.
A follow-up now to our report this week on what banks are now referring to as banking the unbanked. That is their politically correct term for offering bank accounts to millions of illegal aliens in this country, the unbanked. Many banks are also offering loans to those who broke American laws to come to this country.
Christine Romans has the report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): In this Chicago neighborhood, Mark Doyle is providing the American dream of homeownership to illegal aliens. In the last seven months, he's loaned $80 million to homebuyers who are in this country illegally.
MARK DOYLE, PRESIDENT, SECOND FEDERAL SAVINGS BANK: We're not near the Mexican border. We're not encouraging people to come up here to Chicago. We are simply living up to our charter, which is to provide for housing opportunities for our residents of the communities that we're in.
ROMANS: He sees $300 million in lending opportunity in his neighborhood. Almost $6 billion in Chicago.
There are no national numbers, but all over the country banks are giving home loans to illegal aliens. They are called ITIN mortgages after the U.S. taxpayer I.D. number the government uses to collect taxes from those people working illegally in this country. A recent report pegged the potential market for homeownership among illegals at $44 billion.
GARY ACOSTA, NAHREP: We think that the benefits greatly outweigh any drawbacks that may exist by allowing this segment of the population to participate in homeownership in the same way that other taxpayers do. ROMANS: But critics say the loans insult the men and women enforcing American borders.
GLENN GROTHMAN (R), WISCONSIN STATE SENATE: Oh, it's a total insult to them. It implies that we really don't want them to do -- to have a job.
I mean, think about that. If you are going to give a low- interest loan to an illegal alien, it apparently means you don't expect that illegal alien ever to leave the country, right? Or you wouldn't even allow them to buy the house.
ROMANS: He's written legislation to stop the loans in Wisconsin, calling them a slap in the face of law enforcement and legal immigrants.
ROB PARAL, AMERICAN IMMIGRATION LAW FOUNDATION: I don't think the largest banks and financial institutions in the United States are slapping anyone in the face with this. What they see are families that include, as I say, U.S. citizens and legal permanent residents that live with these undocumented immigrants, and they see that they are very solid people. Ironically, financially, and in terms of their behavior, they're often as American as apple pie.
ROMANS: But so far the U.S. government doesn't go quite that far. Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae will not repurchase those loans, and the Federal Housing Administration says "FHA does not permit mortgages for illegal aliens."
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ROMANS: But that doesn't mean the public won't hold the bag if these mortgages go back. Say 50 families in one community head to Canada for better jobs, or say another administration starts to enforce immigration laws, then you have the deposits which are used in these community banks to make the mortgages. Those deposits are ensured by the FDIC. That's the government, that's you and me -- Lou.
DOBBS: And the tax dollars, and they will obviously have to step in. It's a fascinating battle over our immigration laws, border security and the language. Banking the unbanked, the temerity of these people to disregard our laws, to put, again, squarely on the taxpayer and working men and women in this country, particularly those working at lower-income levels.
ROMANS: I hear more and more that this is a business opportunity, this is a growing market. These are people who pay their bills. And, "Oh, by the way, Christine, we don't enforce the immigration laws. We're just deal with reality." We hear this all the time.
DOBBS: It's also an extraordinary publication that you showed us in which, what was it, undocumented Latino immigrants...
ROMANS: Yes.
DOBBS: ... well, obviously, they are using U.S. tax IDs. They have matricula consulars. Those are documents, aren't they?
ROMANS: It sounds to me like they are documented immigrants at this point, yes.
DOBBS: Documented illegal immigrants I guess is the way they'd have to change it to be politically correct and at least somewhat reaching. This is a pathetic state of affairs.
The Comptroller of the Currency, the office, the Federal Reserve, all of these agencies responsible for regulating these banks are permitting this to go on. This is utter madness.
ROMANS: And they're saying the banks bear the risk. And they keep pointing out to the banks, it's your responsibility to make sure you know your customer and that you know that these people have the ability to pay. But these people are in the country illegally. If something changes...
DOBBS: If they are apprehended, for example...
ROMANS: They wouldn't be able to pay.
DOBBS: It's amazing. We're going to continue to follow this. Christine, outstanding reporting.
ROMANS: Thank you.
DOBBS: And we will be following this story closely for the days and weeks ahead. Thank you. Christine Romans.
Up next here, we'll have much more on the millions of illegal aliens in this country and the many benefits they receive. Two experts will be here to debate in our "Face Off" tonight a number of issues, including whether illegal aliens should be allowed to have drivers' licenses. Yes, that's still an issue in this country. And it's here next.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: We reported earlier this week about some of the outrageous comments made by Mexican President Vicente Fox and other Mexican government officials. Those comments all related to the invasion of illegal aliens into this country.
One in particular we mentioned was the comment "No country that is proud of itself should build walls," referring to the border wall under construction in the San Diego area. My guest tonight in our "Face Off" have two very different views about the president of Mexico's comments and the issues of border security and immigration reform in itself.
In Washington, Steven Camarota He is the director of research at the Center for Immigration Studies.
Steve, it's good to have you with us.
He says those who object to walls believe in illegal immigration.
Brent Wilkes is the executive director of the League of United Latin American Citizens, who says a wall would be offensive and ineffective.
It is good to have you both with us.
Thanks for being here, Brent.
BRENT WILKES, LEAGUE OF UNITED LATIN AMERICAN CITIZENS: Thanks for having us.
DOBBS: Let me start with your position that it's offensive to have a wall. How so?
WILKES: Yes. Well, it's offensive because it's only being applied to the southern border, and it's not being applied to the northern border.
My understanding, it's supposed to be about security, but we found that every terrorist that's come to the United States across a land border has come in from Canada. And yet we're not talking about any kind of laws in Canada.
It's also offensive in the same way that the Berlin was offensive. Why should we separate peoples?
I agree with Vicente Fox, that a nation that is secure and proud of itself doesn't need a border like that. We can make changes to our laws and we can have a very positive and progressive and legal immigration procedure and not have to wall ourselves off from the rest of the world.
DOBBS: Steven?
STEVEN CAMAROTA, CENTER FOR IMMIGRATION STUDIES: I mean, obviously that's absurd. We have had terrorists come across the southern border.
There's a Hezbollah terrorist right now who's been charged in Michigan who came across the southern border. We had a Pakistani- affiliated al Qaeda terrorist come across the southern border a few months ago. So it's pretty clear the southern border matters.
Look, all a fence or border fence would do is make sure you can't cross between the legitimate legal border crossing points. Anyone who objects to that simply doesn't believe in the United States defending its border. It's absurd.
WILKES: Why not at the border with Canada, Steve?
CAMAROTA: Well, I think everyone recognizes that there are a lot more people, about 18 times more, illegal aliens from Mexico in the United States than from Canada. WILKES: Well, let's compare terrorists. Let's compare terrorists.
CAMAROTA: But everybody and everyone recognizes that we need to defend both borders.
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: Our audience is pretty sophisticated. So I would just like to get rid of a couple of pieces of the rhetoric here.
WILKES: Sure. Yes.
DOBBS: One is, we do know why the southern border, because 98 percent of the illegal immigration is occurring on the southern border. But like you say, Brent, I personally believe that wherever there is an issue of illegal immigration and a breakdown in border security that we should enforce it to the maximum, don't you?
WILKES: I agree that border security is important. We should protect ourselves from terrorists. But the biggest loophole right now is on the Canadian border. That's where all the 9/11 hijackers came across, not from Mexico.
DOBBS: So you're not concerned about the estimated 50,000 persons who -- other -- OTMs, as it were, and most of those, many of those from countries that are on our terrorist watch, in fact, cross the Mexican border?
WILKES: I think we should be concerned about border security. And our organization supports that.
DOBBS: Yes.
WILKES: We also don't feel that you should confuse the two issues. There's undocumented immigration...
DOBBS: I assure you, there's no confusion here whatsoever.
Let me ask you both this. Could you both agree that whatever immigration reform takes place in this country, and it's a critical, critical issue now, that it has to, as a condition precedent, we have to take control of our borders. Can you both agree on that?
CAMAROTA: Absolutely. Look, even if you favor the kinds of proposal that the president wants, which is like a massive amnesty, a huge guest worker program, 10 million illegal aliens get some kind of legal status, the only way to push people into that kind of program is if you defend the border. If you make it difficult for illegal aliens to get jobs and get drivers' licenses and so forth. Otherwise, why in the heck would anyone ever sign up for such a program?
You have to -- the idea of any kind of program like that presupposes we take control of our borders, we penalize employers for hiring illegal aliens and sure as heck don't make sure -- make sure illegal aliens don't driver's licenses and in-state college tuition or else there's no way for that program to even work, assuming you think it's a good idea.
WILKES: Steve, that's ridiculous. If there was a legal process for people to come here to work and they didn't have to violate our immigration laws in order to do that, which they currently have to now, then that's the avenue they would take. They don't want to break our laws, but there's no alternative right now. If a proposal that President Bush and Vicente Fox discussed became law, you'd see millions of people signing up for that and they would not violate our border laws.
DOBBS: But my question was this -- would you support, as a condition precedent to immigration reform, absolute border security so that we could control our borders and the flow of people across our borders?
WILKES: No, Lou, we'd support it as part of a package, but we wouldn't support it as a precondition. Because that's been used to stop any kind of immigration reform.
DOBBS: When has that happened?
WILKES: Many people have said let's control the borders and then talk about immigration reform.
DOBBS: You said it's been used. I'd like to hear when that occurred.
WILKES: Since 1986, we haven't had any positive immigration reform in this country. And that's one of their excuses, let's first gain control of the border and then talk about immigration reform. No, we'll talk about it at the same time. That's fine. It's part of the package.
DOBBS: Let me say this then -- let me just ask one quick question. I know you want to get in here Steve. But if we can't control our borders as a condition precedent to immigration reform, how in the world could we avoid a further massive invasion of illegal aliens into this country? And how could we take control of the borders and know who was exiting and who was entering the country? I'm a little lost on that.
CAMAROTA: I mean, look, the...
DOBBS: I'm asking Brent, actually.
WILKES: Oh, it's very simple. If you have a legal process, they won't be coming across illegally in the first place. And second of all, you can have it as part of the package and it will strengthen our borders, certainly.
DOBBS: Steve you, get the last word.
CAMAROTA: Obviously, that's silly. In 1986, for example, we actually said, we legalize about 3 million illegal aliens. And then we didn't enforce the law. We didn't enforce the law, we end up replacing all of the illegal aliens. The bottom line is if you want people to sign up, even if you think the program is ridiculous, if you want people to sign up for it, you have to enforce the laws. That's a perquisite.
DOBBS: Gentleman, we thank you both for being here. Brent Wilkes, Steven Camarota, thank you very much gentleman.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thanks for having me.
DOBBS: A reminder to vote in our poll tonight. "Are you offended by President Bush's decision to side with Mexican President Fox in calling American citizens who intend to volunteer to monitor our southern border vigilantes?" Yes or no? Cast your vote at loudobbs.com. We'll have the results here in just a few moments.
Coming up next, the life or death battle for the life of Terri Schiavo. Why Governor Jeb Bush tonight says Schiavo's diagnosis -- her medical diagnosis may in fact not be accurate.
And, my interview with the best-selling author Pastor Rick Warren and his message of hope, reconciliation and purpose next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Florida Governor Jeb Bush tonight is petitioning a state court to turn custody of Terri Schiavo over to the state government. Governor Bush is also challenging the medical diagnosis that Schiavo is in what is termed a persistent vegetative state.
This comes after a federal appellate court today rejected two separate requests by Schiavo's parents to have their daughter's feeding tube restored.
Bob Franken is in Pinellas Park, Florida tonight. And has the report for us -- Bob.
BOB FRANKEN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well Lou, let's start with that state judge. The state judge who is George Greer, the judge who ordered the disconnection of the tube, is now saying that the governor cannot use his Adult Protective Services to take custody of Terri Schiavo. The governor had contended that he wouldn't even need court authorization. But the judge has now assertively ordered that that not be done.
At the same news conference that Governor Bush announced that plan, he also introduced the evidence from a prominent -- he called, a prominent neurologist -- who said that there was some question whether Terri Schiavo has -- truly does have a persistent vegetative state, which has been the diagnosis which has caused the decision to disconnect her feeding tube.
This doctor, however, has not conducted a thorough examination.
The governor also said he wanted to investigate charges of abuse that had been leveled by a few people many years ago who did not have personal knowledge of the relationship. At any rate, Governor Bush said he was interceding -- the Senate by this time had turned down legislation which would have caused the reconnection of the feeding tube so the governor said he feels he has to get involved.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GOV. JEB BUSH, (R) FLORIDA: Terri is now going on her sixth day without food or water. It is imperative that she be stabilized so that the Adult Protective Services team can fulfill their statutory duty and thoroughly review all of the facts surrounding her case. If there's any uncertainty, we should err on the side of protecting her.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
FRANKEN: Uncertainty also with the judicial situation. So tonight Terri Schiavo remains off her feeding tube where she's been since Friday -- Lou.
DOBBS: Bob Franken, thank you very much, reporting from Pinellas Park, Florida.
Coming up next, "The Purpose Driven Life," Pastor Rick Warren will be talking about the Terri Schiavo case. He will also share his views on the role of religion in our society and a great deal more. Please stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: My next guest and his bestselling book have been credited with helping to save the life of Ashley Smith, the woman who was taken hostage in Atlanta by Brian Nichols.
Smith read portions of "The Purpose-Driven Life" to the murder suspect, and she ultimately convinced him that his purpose might be to surrender, to go to prison, and teach others about God.
Pastor Rick Warren is the author of that book. I asked him earlier the secret to his book's incredible, incredible success.
PASTOR RICK WARREN, AUTHOR, "THE PURPOSE-DRIVEN LIFE": Well, you know, Lou, it's the overnight success that took 25 years. It's really much bigger. The book is just a small part of a much bigger movement that we've been working on for about 25 years.
I decided a long time ago that I was going to stay off the airwaves in terms of putting the -- our church services on TV and things like that, so that I wouldn't be a celebrity. But I began to train pastors in the early '90s. And I've trained about a quarter of a million pastors here in America.
So when I suggested that we do 40 days of purpose together, tens of thousands of churches began to pick it up, and the book became an instant success.
DOBBS: And a long-running success as well, and likely to have an even much greater run now because of the Brian Nichols shootings in Atlanta and the extraordinary courage of Ashley Smith.
I understand you speak with her almost daily.
WARREN: Yes. I am talking with her every day, just kind of giving her pastoral encouragement, praying with her, you know, reading Scripture to her, talking with her about how to handle all of this newfound fame, and, you know, the media and things like that, and just trying to be a friend.
DOBBS: As friend, as pastor, let me ask -- and of course, you certainly don't have to answer if it is beyond convention, but I am sure that many folks, including myself, would like to know -- just generally, what you're saying to her on how to handle what was such a traumatic event, in which she displayed remarkable courage, but now has to deal with all that is attendant following the events.
WARREN: Well, I think, Lou, most of life is beyond our control. We're -- you know, we didn't choose where we were born, when we were born, who our parents were, a lot of things that happen. She certainly didn't plan this event. She just went out for a pack of cigarettes, and God opened up this opportunity for her to share with Brian Nichols, read the passage out of the book, and it changed his life.
And as I told her one time, I said, It's, you know, it's a surprise to all of us, but it's not a surprise to God. He knew it would happen even before she was born. And so there is a plan and a purpose in this. And he's going to use her as a simple spokesman.
I have noticed that God uses ordinary people to get things done. He doesn't use saints. He doesn't use theologians, you know, or people who are perfect, because there are no perfect people. He just uses normal people. And she happened to be the person that God wanted to use at this point.
DOBBS: So much of what is normal, it seems these days, Pastor Warren, is tragic. The young man, the high school student in Red Lake, Minnesota, who killed 10 people, including himself. Within the context of your religion, explain that event as best you can, and how your faith enables you and others to deal with it.
WARREN: Yes. Well, the first place is that when people feel hopeless, Lou, they do hopeless things. That's what Brian Nichols did. That's what this kid did up in Minnesota. It happens all around us. When people feel hopeless, they do hopeless things.
And there are two tracks in life. There's always good things going on in life. There are always bad things going on in life. And I used to think life was hills and valleys, that you have a good time, then a bad time, good time, and a bad time.
But I now believe that they run simultaneously, and that's just part of life. And no matter how bad things are in my life, there's something I can thank God for, and no matter how good things are in my life, there's something that needs to be worked on. And I find that faith in Christ, that faith in God helps me have the strength to handle both the good and the bad. And we have to deal with them both through life. That's life. This is not heaven. This is Earth. And Earth is an imperfect place.
DOBBS: I can't talk with you without talking about Terri Schiavo.
WARREN: Sure.
DOBBS: What is your best judgment as to what the proper course is for her life?
WARREN: Yes. I think the problem with the Terri Schiavo case is that it's become a case, and we've forgotten the person and made it more an ideological battle. This is a woman who was not dying. She is not on life support. She is not brain-dead. She is smiling. She laughs. She has responses. And she was not dying until somebody decided to starve her.
And my question is, who's in such a hurry to take her life? I know that there are millions of people in America who would be willing to pay for her feeding. And since when did we decide that people who can't feed themselves ought to die? If that's true, then we ought to let all the babies die, because they can't feed themselves.
There's a difference between being in a vegetative state and being brain-dead. This is a woman who is not brain-dead. Doctors will tell you that people will live in a vegetative state often 15, 20, or more years. It is not likely that she'll come out of it. But it does happen sometimes.
And I believe that as long as there's life, there's hope, and that there is even a purpose for Terri Schiavo's life. It may be even be of an encouragement to others. And, of course, many people have talked about severely brain-damaged or retarded children that often brought a lot of joy into their lives who couldn't contribute. But you don't stop feeding them just because they are brain-damaged or retarded.
And so I feel like the question ought to be, why is this husband in such a hurry to let this woman die? He's already began his own life with another woman. He's had two kids by her. And I don't recommend divorce, but it's certainly preferable to letting a person die.
DOBBS: In your judgment, as we're also wrestling with the separation of church and state in this country, is there a sufficient separation, or is there, in Pastor Rick Warren's view, not sufficient combining of the values of religion and politics and government?
WARREN: Well, I don't believe in the combination of government and any particular religion. I do believe in the freedom, that we have the freedom to -- everybody to worship as they see fit. In fact, I'd fight for that and die for that, because it's given us the most prosperous nation in the world. What bothers me is the people who try to rewrite history in revisionism, and act as if that the people who founded our nation weren't very spiritual, and even Christian or Judeo-Christian leaders. The fact is, they were.
And honestly, Lou, I think that when you have these arguments in court about, Are we going to take off "In God we trust" off the money, or "One nation under God" out of the Pledge, those are really silly arguments to me. Does anybody really believe that anybody's ever converted to any faith because of "In God we trust" on the money?
You know, when I go to Thailand, I am not upset by the fact that there are Buddhas all around the capital. When I go to Saudi Arabia, I am not upset by the fact that there's a crescent flag and there's a mosque nearby. That is the spiritual heritage of those nations.
And so to say, Well, we've got to take the 10 Commandments out of the Supreme Court, where they are, or we've got to take the statue of Moses out of the Library of Congress, where it is, or we've got to take the Scripture references out of the Capitol, that's just basically to rewrite history.
And that's not saying that we condone any particular religion. It's just that our founders had that background. And so we are a pluralistic nation. And we -- by the way, we are not a secular nation, as many people say. We are not a secular, we are a religious nation. Ninety-six percent of the people in this nation believe in God, and they happen to have different religious beliefs, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, you know, Muslim.
But this is the most religious nation in the world, maybe second only to India.
DOBBS: Pastor Warren, let me ask you one last question. Since we have you on the airwaves here, and you don't -- you've shunned celebrity, but let me give you this opportunity, if there were one message you wanted to get out to the broadest number of people, what would that be?
WARREN: You know, I think, Lou, that there's a common thread in the story in Minnesota, the story in Terri Schiavo, the story in Ashley Smith, and what happens this week that we call Easter Week. And that is the message of hope. The number one thing that people are looking for right now in life is a reason for hope. They -- not a false sense of hope, but a real reason for hope. And I think the message of Easter is that God can bring good out of bad.
That God can turn crucifixions into resurrections, that no situation is hopeless. There are people who are probably watching this show that think, I'm beyond God. I've done too many bad things or I've done to many wrong things or my situation is hopeless, and I would say to them, you're wrong -- that there is hope. And the message of "The Purpose Driven Life" book, you don't have to go read the book. Just go to church on Easter and you'll hear it all over America, that there is hope.
DOBBS: Pastor Rick Warren, thank you for being here.
WARREN: Thank you, Lou.
DOBBS: It's been said by a lot of folks, but there is, without question, one remarkable fellow. Religion is the reason, by the way, several IMAX theaters in the south are now refusing to show a film on volcanoes. Those theater owners are concerned the IMAX film, "Volcanoes of the Deep Sea" might offend people with strong religious beliefs. The reason, the film draws a link between human DNA and microbes inside underwater volcanoes. The director of the IMAX Theater in Charleston, for example, says many people down here believe in creationism not evolution.
Power struggles. Why my next guest says there's no short-term solution to our energy crisis. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Gas and oil prices at new record highs this past week. My guest tonight says we must produce more of our own energy in order to avoid economic peril. Senator Pete Domenici is the chairman of the Senate Energy and Natural Resource Committee who voted in favor of opening drilling in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge.
Senator Domenici joins us tonight from Washington.
Senator, good to have you with us.
SEN. PETE DOMENICI (R), CHAIRMAN OF ENERGY AND NATURAL RESOURCE COMMITTEE: Lou, I'm delighted. You know, I left the Budget Committee. That's when you used to have me on a lot. We talked about economics. And I left that to see if I could help with the energy crisis, took over this committee. And now I want to tell you right off this is the year, without any question, we've got to produce a national energy policy, and we will.
DOBBS: And this past year, Senator, as you well know is the year we saw crude oil prices soar 50 percent.
DOMENICI: Skyrocket.
DOBBS: What in the world are we going to do, because this is starting to look like a very serious long-term economic problem.
DOMENICI: Well, Lou, let me tell you, you are aware of how we do things. Sometimes we act right on time. We see the problem and we get on it. There's been warnings. They're been -- we've been talking about, maybe for 25 years, that our growing dependence upon crude oil from overseas is serious. I can remember, I came to the Senate 33- years-ago. They were then preaching oil independence, energy independence. We can't do that anymore because we can't become independent. We don't know how to get out from under the need for oil as part of our American economy and our way of life.
But what we must do is minimize our dependence. We've got to conserve and produce. Some people say, we don't need to produce anymore because we can conserve. You've got to do both. The dependence is so big that right now this powerful nation, forget our economics for a while. Just our power, our prestige, it is hanging in the balance and the thread is that crude oil would be denied to us for any period of time by a war, by terrorists. We would actually be on our knees. It's so serious.
DOBBS: Is there enough oil domestically that we could produce anytime?
DOMENICI: No, sir.
DOBBS: So effectively, we're going to be dependent, no matter what, right?
DOMENICI: The only way -- if oil prices got high enough and it may be there right now. We're going to see, we have more oil tied up in shale, under ground in the states of Colorado and Utah. More oil tied up underground than all of the reserves of oil, the kind of oil we use now in the whole world. But we have to convert it. Under ground we have to convert it.
DOBBS: A technology issue.
DOMENICI: And we have the technology. The question is, when you add all the problems together, can you do it at a price of oil that will permit you to do that economically. I'm going to pursue that with some vigor now.
DOBBS: Well, we wish you all the best. It's certainly in our interest you succeed. Senator Pete Domenici, we thank you for being with us here.
DOMENICI: Let me say, the energy bill has to -- has to set a policy that we produce all kinds of energy, including nuclear.
DOBBS: We appreciate you being with us. Thank you. I'm sorry we're out of time.
Still ahead, the results of our poll, a preview of what's ahead tomorrow.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Our poll results -- 95 percent of you responded to say you are offended by President Bush's decision to side with Mexican President Fox in calling American citizens who volunteer to monitor our southern border vigilantes.
And that is our broadcast for this evening. We thank you for being with us tonight. Join us tomorrow. A the former INS agent who says this country continues to have an immigration crisis and enforcement.
We'll hope you'll be with us. For us here, good night from New York. ANDERSON COOPER 360 is next.
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